Big Little Lies : Ed MacKenzie

Ed MacKenzie

Normal ? Standard Empath? Middle Mid Range Narcissist?

What do you think and argue your case in the comments!

What is Ed MacKenzie?

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893 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : Ed MacKenzie

  1. Kiki says:

    Is the novel Big Little Lies the same as the TV series

    I will read it if it is as I didn’t follow the series I’m a bit weird I just prefer a book


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Series based on book

  2. WokeAF says:

    Ed totally DOES kind of act like a dick!! I was dismissing it .

    Of all my narcs he reminds me of my LMR with the dark angry eyes.
    His general feel
    And that fits the description
    Sulky, yes.

    I am changing my vote to LMR.

  3. Alexissmith2016 says:

    I usually enjoy reading other readers comments and views when time permits. But I’m no longer finding this interesting nor enjoyable.

    Ladies please! We’re all in this together. There are bigger, more real fights to have so conserve your energy and preserve your dignity.

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      HG, I do hope you’re not masturbating about this haha

  4. WokeAF says:

    NA, K, whoever

    I will correct myself
    I perceived MP as being ganged up on.
    I can’t speak for her, when I did speak for her before it was bc I was projecting my own perception onto it.
    I can’t give direct quotes bc this thread is too long.
    I will try to give you my perception/projection.

    Here it is/was);

    -lovely debate on morality
    -I see morals, rights, etc as thoughts in the head.
    -comments all released at once- confusion in the thread
    -I project MP is perceiving that she is being told she has no morals if she rats out on the bc situation in BLL
    -I debate this in relation to the existence of morals
    -MP (I thought) gets righteously offended at a (I thought ) miscommunication on this
    -K states MP’s narc traits
    -I project/perceive this as a bit of an attack , bc I’m thinking MP is unable to communicate what she means
    -various ppl pipe up in Agreement on K’s morality stance
    -I perceive/project that MP is feeling ostracized because of this and because she thinks others are agreeing that she has no morals
    – I pipe up for MP not to worry about it because K is narcissistic traits of pride or whatever maybe being projected onto her because I want to make her feel better
    -all shit breaks loose
    – k starts listing my narcissistic traits
    -I see that I have a narcissistic traits but now I feel that K has stopped listening to what I’m saying entirely and is calling everything I say a narcissistic trait , and i’m trying to communicate that I’m actually still just engaging in a conversation but now I’m starting to feel a little butt hurt
    -more shit breaks loose
    – at some point during all of this my emotional thinking takes over And also I do not genuinely understand what k’s morality reality is, and I genuinely do not understand that and Empaths can have narcissistic traits without meaning to
    – I really want to find out if K believes that someone who would rat out on the birth control has no morals, and if K actually believes morals are anything but a thing in the head as I understand them to be
    -K tells me that I need things spelled out for me and also that I’m an idiot (paraphrasing)because of my quantum theory comment which is actually part of this for me-
    – I try to explain my quantum theory comment and let Kane know and everyone else that I understand it was not an appropriate comment for that time and I am trying to bring some humour into it all
    – sometime during this period of time I stop engaging with K directly because I perceive or project that I am being shut down
    – I also did not realize that if a person doesn’t mean to lie that they are actually lying I understood lying as having the intention to lie which I did not have and I projected mommy Pino did not have

    Essentially the layers of cognitive dissonance have been falling off of me for a year and a half and I have been using that 1.5 years to eliminate the narcs in my direct physical life and not been paying much attention to what goes on here to be honest other than the articles .

    I’m not a child and I don’t want anyone to sugarcoat anything for me but I also need to be understood that I am really just trying to engage here and learn about everything including myself .

    That was a lot I know I hope it makes sense

    Can I just give a huge shout out to HG for allowing the comments on this all to go through very quickly so I can sort things out and understand and everyone else too I guess

    1. WokeAF says:

      IGNORE MY GLOSSING OVER I swear to HG I’m trying to recall events in as close to a correct order as I can

      I don’t want to be a victim I see it now , in the above comments

      I’m starting to see it

      And i have several other comments I’ve dropped that HG Hasn’t released yet !! So if they pop up
      Check the time stamps

      I won’t comment again until I can figure out where we all are

      1. WokeAF says:

        Except to say in AA one of the personal defects that I’m trying to remove (12 steps) is victim mentality

        Ok I’m done until we are caught up and Every last comment of mine has been released and someone tells me where the F to comment so that we can stay in order because I’m getting lost

      2. K says:

        Ha ha ha…good luck. You are doing fine.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Yeah. I got it. I almost combusted first. I stayed up all night for this bc I needed resolution. Bc I’m obv insane.

          It was cognitive dissonance and you broke me out of it. I appreciate it. I guess tenacity pays off doesn’t it. On both our parts.

          I also now I’m seeing what’s going on.

          I’m still a little rattled by the spineless comment, however it was shocking enough for me to really fucking wake the fuck up .

          1. K says:

            You are not insane; you are trying to make it all jive. It’s very clear that we are both tenacious and that’s not always a bad thing.

            We all need a reality slap once in while, myself included. There’s a lot of context missing on the blog but, if we were together IRL, I might have said: stop being so wishy-washy and grow a pair.

          2. WokeAF says:

            I’m glad you were harsh with me, I needed it. And I broke thru to a new level of awareness bc of all this. I’m forever grateful to you. You’re smart as fuck. Feel free to point out anything to me in the future. I can swallow a slice of humble pie any time. I’m devoted to awakening, and that means getting real with myself.
            Your mind is quick at identifying the traits and manipulations. Don’t stop. You’re accelerating my learning process exponentially.

            Haha grow a pair! That is perfect. I often use balls in my day to day nomenclature. I’m a big fan of saying “eggs” tho bc it covers both genders.
            Like “ grow a set of eggs!”
            Or “I’ve got the eggs for this challenge” type of thing
            “Shave your eggs if you wanna get anywhere near this tonight”


          3. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF!
            Ha ha ha….it’s good to know that my harshness has helped you and I am very happy to read that you broke thru to a new level of awareness because of it. It’s very important to get real with yourself and don’t worry, I won’t stop, as long as you don’t mind, and I will continue to accelerate the learning process for you. That’s what this place is all about.

            Ha ha ha…sack up and grow a pair is another one I use.

    2. WokeAF says:

      Dammit HG this post is 2 days old ur killing me here

    3. WokeAF says:

      Time stamps everyone! Time stamps!

  5. Attention All: Ed said he is pleased to see that his page has managed to garner so much conversation, and when MMM saw so, (when he showed her), she finally gave him a night to remember. And they both send thanks to all involved on behalf of the cast of Big LIttle Lies. And they ask for all to remember to vote for them if any voting for couples will be part of our HG Tudor Assessment Event, regarding the series: Cheers! Now back to the debating and replies and replies that go to the wrong post and/or the wrong posters and missing replies and misunderstood replies and everything else that is lighting the blue touch paper on here. I tried to jump in but I fell on a slippery accusation and broke my fingernail. Repair Time.

    1. WokeAF says:

      The. BEST. 😂

    2. MommyPino says:

      😂 PSE, to be honest, out of all of the characters in that movie, Ed was the last person that I would have ever thought of having the longest thread.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        I don’t even watch this series, and I can say this is the most attention Ed has ever gotten.

        Instead of analyzing Ed, I analyzed all 3 of you…

        And I kept my mouth SHUT, mainly because I either believe that people benefit most/are capable of handling their own stuff & I should stay out — OR — when I go all in — I go IN. The thread may have gone to 2020, and you all would wonder when *I* turned into such a narcissist! Who needs that?

        Glad you sorted it~you’re all empaths, so I’m fond of you all, hot mess or not. Life is messy. We’re empaths. We get passionate.

        No offense to Ed, I’m sure your passion way exceeded him!

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…you chose wisely! Thank you. It would have been so much easier if Abby took an Uber.

          1. WokeAF says:


          2. Caroline-is-kissy says:

            Who’s Abby? LOL… but serious, I really don’t know…. ha!

            Please stabilize/reaffirm Woke… and hug MP (she’s a hugger, I’m confident).

            I suggest you all pretend you ate too much spicy food & had a “several days nightmare.”

            Free kisses,

          3. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Caroline is kissy! *hugs* *hugs*

          4. K says:

            Ha ha ha…never mind!

            WokeAF and MP are perfectly fine.

            Free kisses back!

          5. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I really appreciate how you’ve reached back & extended your empathy to MP…and how you have so clearly affirmed/clarified many aspects for her. You’re right – she is a kind soul – and you are as well.

            Who knows, I may actually check out this series sometime, lol!
            Caroline x

          6. K says:

            Thank you Caroline-is-fine!
            MP is a kind person and all this drama isn’t good for her or anyone else on the blog. The series is great and I think you will love it.

          7. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, Babe…I really may check it out. You guys were like free advertising for the series, ha. 😉

          8. WhoCares says:


            “Thank you. It would have been so much easier if Abby took an Uber.”


          9. K says:

            My pleasure WhoCares!
            Ha ha ha…I know, right.

          10. WhoCares says:


            I’m just glad to read that it’s mostly over. Because I like reading comments by all three of you – just not about that anymore.

          11. K says:

            Ha ha ha…you and me both! As far as I am concerned, it’s a Done Deal.

        2. WokeAF says:

          I am very sure HG is finding everyone pointing fingers at each other incredibly rich.
          “you’re a narc!”
          “No you are!”
          “No she’s an empath!”
          “Well, HG says IM an empath!”
          “You’re all empaths!”
          “I know what you are!”
          “I know what YOU are!”

          Hilarious. And inevitable .

    3. LC says:

      Woah…. I am totally new to this thread, I bingewatched the first series last night, it had me hooked right away and of course I also wanted to get my votes in before the resolution is posted. So I open the comments on the series and am somewhat blown away. there is so much to learn… Not only from trying to figure out the fictional characters but also from the spectrum of analyses, the kinds of arguments and reasons given for certain views. But then also from what happens when people who have been hurt immerse themselves too much in learning how to figure other people out.

      This particular thread on Ed here leaves me almost speechless (almost). Reading it made me very uncomfortable. I couldn‘t believe my eyes to see in what hostile tones (hostile, yes, that‘s how it came over to me) established posters on this blog dissect other established posters using the narc-identification tools provided on this blog. It does happen sometimes here that there is tension but this here went on for days…. Perhaps there is a time to remember that we’re not fictional but virtual characters here, there is only so much of one‘s personality one can display online and in writing. And if there is such a spectrum of views on the fictional characters perhaps it is good to remember that there is a lot more to think about when dealing with real people that we are.

      I am speaking of myself now when I say that there can be too much immersion in ‚narcology‘. Everyone reading this will have his or her own idea whether they feel they are obsessed and it gets too much for themselves sometimes – but I do think we ought to think about it collectively. There was an interesting contribution by a psychologist on the narcissism awareness day, i have forgotten her name, who said that being obsessed with reading anything one can about narcissism is not only a sign of having experienced some form of trauma, but that the immersion in info on narcissism post disengagement can also be detrimental in the healing process.

      I have observed myself screening each and every person for narcissism. It may be necessary to so but it can get obsessive and obsessions are never healthy. This blog is the best place in my eyes to come to when obsessed, because it provides true insight, but one can get obsessed also with true insight. The question is: how much of narc info is good and constructive and when does it get destructive in its own right.

      NA, if you‘re reading this, I left you a comment in the Full Horror Moment Thread, would love to hear your answer. (I am still around ,just trying to manage my blog obsession and therefore sometimes see messages for me only late).

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi LC

        I lost track of where we were so hoped you’d pop up again. I just checked the Full Horror Moment thread and it’s from 2017 and I didn’t see you there. Could it have been another poll?

        1. LC says:

          Hi NA, no, it’s recent, there’s a poll from July 1st. Or around then. Sometimes you have to use a search string with inverted commas or the link doesn’t come up in the search, it’s weird…

      2. WokeAF says:

        “This particular thread on Ed here leaves me almost speechless (almost)”

        I’m laughing at this. Thanks

        “On Ed here”


        1. WokeAF says:

          LC I just reread your comment. I appreciated it.

          Blog obsession? You mean you follow more than one? LOL! This was the first time I got immersed in a blog thread and I gotta say- totally unbalanced me!

          I have been immersed in a twitter thread once- took me away for days and I forgot to hydrate . I don’t recommend it! 😆

          1. LC says:

            Hi WokeAF, no I follow just this blog without having subscribed to it. I am here almost every day, reread articles, search through old comments etc. I can read here for hours on end if I’m not careful. And engaging with people is great but one thing leads to another and if you’re agitated by certain answers then there’s nothing else in your head but these issues here (that’s how I feel about myself, I don’t mean you personally, I mean you in a generic kind of plural) …I know though that some people even dream of narcsite. I have read it here and it has happened to me too once, even though I don’t post that much (compared to some people).

            But WokeAF, I have noticed that you are apologising a hell of a lot. No need. You’re fine. I don’t think you needed to be told that you’re thinking was off or something. I got the gist of your reasoning. I guess you must feel like a sponge at the moment if it feels like you’re having one break through moment after the other. But look at it with a bit of distance, insight takes time to settle. Heart usually is slower than head. And this is not least because heart evaluates – and sometimes rightly dismisses again – what head thinks is such a break through as well. I am with NA here and would let it rest for a few days as well though. A lot of the things you three have debated aren’t things that are set in stone, there are more views still and you can change your mind. I am saying that mostly because the debate comes over as a who is right contest (you all seemed to want a winner ) – and that’s I think what propelled this here a bit – all under the guise of wanting to learn more . Anyway. I hope we’ll find out if Ed deserves such a long thread soon! I think he’s just a boring normal 🙂

          2. WokeAF says:


            You think Ed is a NORMAL??!!

            Boy howdy i’m not even going to entertain that perception right now ha ha

            Yeah I’m a sponge. I’m a sponge 24/7
            I see everything from about 1 million different points of view constantly

            Usually this is very well received in my daily life as people often come and talk to me and I can immediately not only sense what they are feeling, see what they are saying , but then scan instantly and be able to relate to it with something for my own experience

            Sometimes it’s detrimental as when I am in an AA meeting , and everyone gets simultaneously upset about something said by someone, even if no one has said anything , I can physically feel the energy in the room suddenly get extremely heavy and unpleasant . Sometimes it knocks me right over

            Luckily my home group knows about this because I’ve explained it and if I suddenly get up and walk out of the room they all know why and not take it personally ha ha

            I don’t actually engage in the blog very much until recently and perhaps that’s for the best
            Considering for the first time ever I did actually dream of Narcsite last night

  6. WhoCares says:


    I have not been able to follow along in this entire conversation, but I did catch this:

    “*I have reread my comment and my auto fill falsely wrote WhoCares when I meant WokeAF”


  7. WokeAF says:

    K ;
    Fair enough
    I’m sorry I did forget that you mentioned your treat of superiority . I missed the one about pride somehow .
    Unless it was you were proud of your superiority ha ha
    I do understand where you’re coming from. I would like some examples of in the earlier conversation when I was playing the victim because I was not aware I was doing that .

    And there is always always always room for communication. There has to be. I mean we’re doing it right now 😆

    I really did feel like you were shutting me down. I’d actually be trying to say something and you were just list narcissistic traits. And I saw mommypino actually trying to say something and you just listing narcissistic traits.

    I didn’t point out MPs traits because she pointed them out herself in a roundabout way.
    I promise you I am not biased.

    I perceived that mommypino ignored your comments to protect herself from getting into emotional thinking and arguing with you. I was also ignoring you briefly because I had determined that you were only going to shut me down if I said something to you , and that you were misunderstanding me completely and so there was no point in even talking to you

    I had an exchange with HG earlier that helped me clarify what was going on a little bit better which is why I opened up the discussion with you again directly . You can find this discussion on the word salad article .

    1. WokeAF says:

      “ you can find this discussion on the word salad article “
      No sorry it’s in this thread. Somewhere

    2. K says:

      Thank you WokeAF
      To help you understand what’s going on a little, my behavior is context driven.

      I am not shutting anyone down; I am observing the behaviour and pointing it out, that’s all.

      Ignoring questions is deflection (silent treatment/stonewalling). That is a narcissistic trait BTW.

      1. MommyPino says:

        K, I started ignoring you once you out and out called me a Liar and Manipulator. Your perception tells you that I was giving you silent treatment, my perception is I am on a trip to see my relatives and I don’t have the time to or choose to have time to defend myself to someone who will not believe me because she has already acalles me a Liar and a manipulator. It isn’t fair when you copy and paste phrases and not the whole thing and the time stamps and your comments where those phrases were responding to because you are taking those phrases out of context. I have wasted so much time writing responses like I am doing now only for you to just write Deflection, What a senseless comment, etc. Why would I then keep doing that? I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat. You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you over everything else with my time in spite of you already telling me that I am a Liar and a Manipulator which therefore gives me the assumption that you will not believe or hear what I will say anyway. And this is not me playing or perceiving myself as a victim, I am telling you facts right now, I’m on a trip and I just don’t have a time. You tell everybody (WokeAF and whoever maybe reading this) that I am doing silent treatment.

        When you wrote that first response where identified what you perceived as manipulations by me, I HAVE RESPONDED and I was not inflammatory in my response because WokeAF already understood me so I was already happy when I responded to you and went on with visiting my relatives instead of staying at my aunt’s house all day to discuss more back and forth with you because she’s the only one who has WiFi. I will post another comment copying and pasting your first comment identifying my narcissistic manipulations according to you and then copy paste my whole RESPONSE after that which is where I was just trying to agree to disagree and didn’t even fight you on those narc manipulations even though at that time I didn’t think that it was nice of you. I just chuckled to myself and thought, it’s just K and didn’t make a big deal out of it and wrote you a response that I thought was diplomatic and I thought that it was the end of it. Then only for me to check on the internet I think two days later (I’m not exactly sure how long, geez I feel like I’m in a fucking courtroom), only to find out that you and WokeAF have already been irate with each other and of course my compassion went to Hera because she was trying to stand up for me even though in reality she didn’t need to because I wasn’t upset anymore. I will copy paste these discussions. Also the problem is I am only using my phone where the screen is so small and everything can be hard to find and is confusing (this is not playing the victim card by the way, I am stating a fact where I am letting you know of a hardship that I have so basically indirectly asking to have some patience with me.). K, when someone doesn’t respond, it’s NOT AUTOMATICALLY SILENT TREATMENT. My perception of silent treatment is someone is not talking to you to make you feel bad. I didn’t do that! First I was gone because I was visiting house to house and WiFi is scarce here. Second I stopped responding because I thought that you will not believe me anyway. So when you say “Ignoring question is deflection and silent treatment, implying that that is what I did to you, it is lying. You are telling everyone that I did silent treatment on you when in truth is I didn’t.

        1. MommyPino says:

          This was your first comment identifying what you perceived as manipulations:

          K on July 20, 2019 at 17:26
          It’s just a clash of personalities and it was a great demonstration of the narcissistic trait of pride coming to the fore. You are imposing your morality (and culture) on Bonnie and I am defending Bonnie’s POV, that’s all.

          1. Maybe I’ll just have to move to Alabama where it requires one parent’s permission for abortion (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement).
          2. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that, (you are rewriting the script; Bonnie had a moral obligation to respect Abby’s right to privacy).
          3.In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales (where did I write that the people from the Philippines are assholes and tattletales?)
          4. good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, entitlement; birth control isn’t harmful and Abby is entitled to use it).
          5. Forcing a child to go to PP with a parent is tantamount to child abuse.
          6. But when I’m called a name I do respond. I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly. (you rewrote my comment to WokeAF and then you unfairly judged those that you felt supported me).

          This was my response before I left the internet for one or two days. This was not inflammatory even though I felt that yours were. I tried to agree to disagree. I didn’t ignore you, I responded but what I ignored were the part that I could have allowed myself to be upset about which is you shaming me by dissecting what I wrote and spinning it to something that I didn’t mean or taking it out of context. After this response to you I was gone because I was visiting, not because I was giving you ST. I had no idea that you were already having a back and forth with WokeAF while I was gone.

          MommyPino on July 21, 2019 at 02:48
          K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. I was saying that when you said that when somebody tells you a secret, you’re not going to turn around like an asshole and tell on them and possibly endangering them because you’re not a tattletale. I can’t remember the exact words but something like that. I was saying, that here in this country where I’m currently staying, that behavior of a friend who had good intentions is not frowned upon. I was pointing out how morals can be shaped by cultural upbringing. One of my friends from 2nd yr h.s. decided to run away with her boyfriend and she was 16. She was not abused at all, her family is loving but she was crazy about this guy who was a bad influence. My other friend knew where she was staying and tipped our friend’s mom where she was and her parents recovered her. They had a fight for a few years but their friendship recovered and she was thankful to our other friend whom she think saved her from being with that guy who was a loser. I probably would have done the same if I knew what was going on but at that time I was already in Manila and those friends were the ones I left in the province. I just have a very few permanent or fixed standard of behavior. I cannot say that divulging a secret is something that I will never do because there might be circumstances when it is needed. But I can say that I will never have sex or intimate relationships with the husbands or boyfriends or even ex boyfriends of my friends and relatives. It is something that in my personal feeling is almost like incest. I cannot say that I will never kill a human being but I can say that I will never murder an innocent person who is not threatening my life. I think that you are just relating to Bonnie and I’m relating to Madeline in that circumstance and so we don’t agree. I am very narcissistic with the way I raise my kids because I’m very involved and interested in them but I don’t shame them or abuse them. I do try to shape the way they see things though, I pick the books that I read to them, I pick the shows that they watch and I take them to church most Sundays if we didn’t oversleep. I want to be able to have control over the way they are growing up up to their 18th age but I try to keep them authentic with their own innate temperaments and interests. My son loves trains so I don’t force him to like dinosaurs instead, I’m actually very happy that at age five he already knows and decided for himself what he loves. He told me that he wanted to be president someday, it got me really excited and asked him to confirm, “president of the United States?” He said no in an irritated way. He said, “president of a train museum!” It made me happier. Because he’s already aiming for what genuinely makes him happy and not to impress me or anyone. But I do admit that I have narcissistic traits but I think we all do. I think that it’s part of being human.


          Then I came back and saw that you and WokeAF were already irate with each other and saw that you issued more inflammatory comments against me and even her. It made me upset and I sympathized without WokeAF and wrote this:

          MommyPino on July 24, 2019 at 10:28
          Hi WokeAF, K and NunyaBiz,

          So sorry I wasn’t able to check in here and catch up on the discussions. I have been visiting different towns in my mom’s province to visit and catch up with relatives and cousins and a lot of them don’t have wifi. I will have to read because it seems like the thread has been long since the last time I posted. Hope all is well and NunyaBiz take care and enjoy your self care time away. 💕. I scanned some of the new comments but I need to read them more thoroughly first to really understand the discussion. But WokeAF, no need to worry about me, I didn’t take it personally and I am just thankful that you understood where I was coming from even though we may have different perspectives. In the last post that I was posted I was happy after reading your comments so when I read K’s, it didn’t get me riled up because I felt understood by you and just one person is enough so it made me more understanding of where K was coming from also when she posted pointing out what she interpreted as my narcissistic behavior. I didn’t fully agree with everything she wrote (I do recognize she was right to an extent but not completely) but I didn’t feel like it mattered anyway because it was just still a difference in opinion and I was more glad and happy that you related and understood my perspective. 💕

          The. I have read those back and forth more slowly and thoroughly and have responded at first, but only to receive more vitriol and misrepresentation of what I said so I stopped responding.

          This will be the last post from me for today. It’s not silent treatment, I am going to Manila and be in a four hour trip. I will also pack. God I feel like I’m living with my matrinarc again. Fuck!!!!

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Sometimes the hardest things in life involve knowing how it is you felt/what you meant/your own heart & enduring that, without knowing for sure if you were heard, understood or validated.

            It’s then that you have to dig a little deeper and be okay with yourself… because YOU know, and that is what matters, is it not? You are with yourself 24/7, so it’s what counts, yes? Maybe a bit was learned through this… and maybe you can also grow stronger as well.

            Hug (and I’m not a big hugger),

          2. WokeAF says:

            I just want to apologize right now for my contribution to this shitstorm.
            I added fuel to the fire. So to speak

            That’s a big my’bad over here

          3. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Caroline is fine. I’m not a big hugger either but today I’ll take all the hugs I can get. Even from K. 💕

          4. K says:

            You deserve both love and hugs. So sending you love and big hugs.

          5. WokeAF says:

            You know I’ve noticed in my life that things always seem to blow up when I arrive.

            Like a truth bomb goes off. Does this happen to you guys too?

            Or is this …..a regular thing around here?

          6. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, I don’t think that it was you. I overreacted over what I perceived to be an attack against me and something about what I said or the way that I did it caused a flooding of triggers. That is my guess about it. It was just an unfortunate massive misunderstanding I think.

          7. WokeAF says:

            MP very well composed !

          8. WokeAF says:

            Don’t fret Mommypino

            It’s a GOOD thing.

            And I like the way you tied that up!

          9. K says:

            Thankfully, this is not a regular thing here. Truth bombs and drama aren’t my thing, usually.

          10. WokeAF says:

            I thought maybe this was an empath thing!!
            Truth bombs are my thing- drama not so much usually! Although sometimes drama happens attached to the truth bomb lol
            Which isn’t so strange, I suppose.

          11. K says:

            Ha ha ha…the truth is great; I just try to be matter of fact about it.

          12. WokeAF says:

            Oh! K ! K? Where’s K? Is she in the dungeon? Get her up here, MP wants a hug .

            Aww! It’s like a happy ending in a movie!

            -Totally surreal.

          13. WhoCares says:


            I can’t make sense of most of the back and forth here. But I do know a couple of things for certain…

            Not one of you three is a narcissist.

            And this:
            ” I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat. You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you over everything else…”

            MP, no one but you is guiding your hands and fingers to type on your phone. Maybe you feel like you’re living with your matrinarc because your empathic truthseeker trait is engaged in making sure the truth (more specifically your truth behind your actions) is made clear in hopes of clearing the confusion and your narcissistic trait of pride won’t let you drop it until the absolute truth is given voice. It is these traits that can that give the narcissist power over us and keep us engaging again and again.
            You said yourself that you should be visiting with your family instead (your cousin’s specifically) and you are a very family oriented person. You are making the choice to prioritize this thread over that activity, no one else.
            I do you hope you manage to have a good visit with family❤️

          14. Getting There says:

            I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here. I don’t watch the show nor have I read all of the comments.
            What I do know is that you are NOT a narcissist. You, like all of us, have narcissistic tendencies but you are not a narcissist.

            What I do know is that you just left your home with your husband to watch your mom die. You were there when your mom died. There is so much to say for the raw emotion that grief brings out. I would have been shocked if you could have compartmentalized the raw emotion and then switch to pure logic when you were able to log on. To watch someone you love die, narcissist or not, and then to see as many family and friends from the past reliving a lot of your past. We do and say things in grief that is not always characteristic of ourselves. That is why many experts advise against making big decisions in the first year after a death of a loved one.
            I am sending you a hug, with Caroline’s, for your loss and for all of the emotions you are trying to process at the same time.

          15. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Getting There. Thank you for being kind and also to Caroline. I just don’t understand what is going on here. I’m just so confused. I went here for distraction. But now I’m not sure what is going on. And I don’t know what to say anymore because I might inadvertently play the victim card or whatever. I’m really not playing the victim card. I really didn’t manipulate or gaslight. I may have been triggered and had the wrong perception and overreacted. I don’t hate anybody. I’m hurt about the names hurled at me: Queen of Victimhood, Lies and Manipulations; Liar and Manipulative. It’s like this blog is an alternative world where I am a different person than who I am in real life where my husband keeps on telling me that I’m a good person and my kids love me so much and my relatives think that I’m a good person. I feel like I have been embarrassing myself here so much and I don’t understand what is going on. Some of the contexts of the jokes are so confusing to me and I’m trying to understand if I am being made fun off because I have been acting so foolishly here. All that I know is that I am so amazingly confused. Do I really deserve all of those names, I don’t think that I do. But I need to understand what false moves I did to be called those names. I just wish that people will explain to me. But I really didn’t manipulate anybody or lied, I had a wrong perception which was probably driven by my own triggers as well and acted foolishly for lashing out. I know that I have also issued inflammatory responses because of the inflammatory comments made to me as well. I want to make it clear that I don’t see myself as a victim but I desperately need clarity and someone to explain to me my false moves without calling me names. I’m not a liar and a manipulator. I am probably too transparent for my own good actually. I am just so confused.

          16. MommyPino says:

            Getting There and Caroline, I just want to say thank you again. Thank you so much. I’m sending love to both of you.

          17. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Aw, you’re very welcome, MP…I just saw you have suffered a loss. I am so sorry! 🙁 Take care of yourself~grieving takes a lot of energy, in itself. Do what makes you feel most peaceful & comforted, and talk kind to yourself, ok?
            ~Caroline x

          18. MommyPino says:

            Thank you. ❤️❤️❤️

          19. K says:

            To be very clear, I didn’t think or feel that you were ignoring me at all.

            1. You wrote: In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            2. I wrote: (where did I write that the people from the Philippines are assholes and tattletales?)
            3. You wrote: K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way.

            In my world that is gas lighting.

          20. MommyPino says:

            K thank you for the response. I will do my best to explain this, I have tried but I feel that nothing that I will say will be believed by you since you already stated that I’m a liar and manipulative. It is frustrating.

            Those phrases that you lifted out, you took them out of context. I was not gaslighting. I was stating my original thought when I wrote it. Bear in mind that I didn’t grow up speaking English. I don’t express myself naturally in English. I am fluent but in my brain I have to translate and compose my sentences and the structures sometimes fail at representing what I really want to convey. And it looks like this is an example. So when I said that “it must be the structure of my sentence,” and your response is that the phrase is ludicrous or didn’t make sense, it is frustrating for me because I was doing my best to give you clarity and not to be manipulative. That’s probably my messages also end up being long-winded because I really make a lot of effort. Being manipulative was not even on my mind and that is what I keep getting accused of and you say that it is a fact.

            I will explain this once again and hopefully I do a better job.

            When I said that:

            In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales are culturally considered as good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful.

            That was the whole sentence. I didn’t say that you called all Filipinos assholes and tattletales. You took it wrongly just like I took your tattletale asshole comment personally. What I tried to explain before was that my original thought when I wrote this was not what you thought so it is definitely Not Gaslighting. I’m not an expert at what gaslighting is but I think that I would have done gaslighting here if my original message was what you said I meant and then I denied it. But I was telling the truth when I said that I didn’t say that you called Filipinos assholes and tattletales, I was telling the truth, I really didn’t say it, you misunderstood it and I was thinking that maybe I structured the sentence poorly that is why you misunderstood it.

            To explain more what I originally meant is that in the country of the Philippines, because their culture is different and parents almost have complete control of their kids until 18yrs old, and family is so tight knit and kids are raised to be obedient, respectful and subservient to their elders, when a friend tattles to the parents about something harmful or wrong like taking drugs or cutting classes etc., that their child is about to do, that friend whom in the western culture would be considered a tattletale asshole is actually considered a good and protective friend in the Philippines and not a yes friend. And culturally here, after that friend tattles on them, they get forgiven because the mentality here is that the one that got tattled was the one who was in the wrong in the first place. So I most certainly did not gaslight if that is the gaslighting that you were talking about. And the reason that I brought it up was not to deflect but to explain where my thought process was coming from when I just said without any filters that if I was Bonnie I would have informed the mom. It was not coming from an attitude of hubris like you thought, it was coming from an attitude of deference to the parents and protection of a child that is given less autonomy in the Philippines. And that was all that I was trying to say. I was trying to clarify, not cause more confusion.

            And thank you for saying that you don’t think that I’m a lightweight. I don’t think so either. But a commenter can choose to stay here on Narcsite or leave and it has nothing to do with them being strong or a lightweight. People just have to decide what they really want to do.

            And thank you for the hugs. ❤️

          21. K says:

            You are welcome MommyPino
            Thank you for the explanation and I am very sorry about the misunderstanding. You are not a lightweight and you are correct, if an individual leaves, that doesn’t mean they are a lightweight. Please, stick to your beliefs and values, those are important to you.

            Spend time with your family and enjoy yourself and your time with them. You are a valuable person here on the blog and part of the group.

            Hugs and love to you and, please, take care of yourself. Losing a loved one is very difficult and you need all the support you can get.

          22. K says:

            Dear Reader,
            After reading MP’s false contrition, blame shift, pity play, projection, gas lighting, victim card “explanation”, I realized something was seriously wrong with her; it’s very clear that she has no insight or awareness, so I responded with this comment below and, sometimes, we have to read between the lines on the blog. My translation is below.

            K says:
            July 28, 2019 at 15:53
            You are welcome MommyPino
            Thank you for the explanation and I am very sorry about the misunderstanding. You are not a lightweight and you are correct, if an individual leaves, that doesn’t mean they are a lightweight. Please, stick to your beliefs and values, those are important to you.

            Spend time with your family and enjoy yourself and your time with them. You are a valuable person here on the blog and part of the group.

            Hugs and love to you and, please, take care of yourself. Losing a loved one is very difficult and you need all the support you can get.

            You are not a lightweight at all, however, I strongly suspect that you are a Mid-Range Narcissist and your conduct on this thread, as well as, the BLL thread supports this. That was the misunderstanding I was referring to and I’m sorry that I didn’t catch on to your true nature sooner.


            Apologies are fuel BTW.

          23. WokeAF says:

            Getting There.
            My mom died 3 years ago.
            I didn’t give a SHIT about my reputation on online forums when it happened.

          24. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, just stop talking about me. I will not interact with you. Do not interact with me. Do not talk about me. You do not know me. Do not pretend like you do. I do not give a shit about what you think about me. You are not me. People process things differently. You have no idea. I don’t care if I’m a narcissist or not. Either way it will never change. So don’t talk about me anymore.

          25. WokeAF says:

            I didn’t talk about you.
            I pointed out that when MY mom died, the last thing on my mind was worrying about what ppl thought about me (in real life, nvmd a forum)

            Although now that you’ve claimed it —- I don’t actually know ANY OTHER person – who are SHELL SHOCKED by the DEATH of a loved one – that would take hours away from their grieving family – where they could get actual real support – to defend their reputation on a narc forum.

            I wouldn’t even do that if my dog died .

            I was stating my experience. You don’t have to like it, or respond to me.

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Do you know lots of people who are bereaved who’ve taken a sabbatical from this blog whilst they grieve and by so doing leave matters of personal reputation hanging in the air?

          27. WokeAF says:

            HG. I do not.

          28. HG Tudor says:

            Your honesty is noted.

          29. WokeAF says:

            HG I am only here to learn .

          30. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hey, Sailor, er, Pilot… I’ve never been more attracted to you than I am at this very moment, reading this comment.


            Holy moly, this thread.

            (Gone all day – my inbox full on this thread… I scan & think: “Okay, it’s over”…”No, guess not”… Yes… No… Yes… No…WTH?…No…Yes?)

            I agree with NA’s last post! At least, the last one I saw, lol

          31. WokeAF says:

            My second comment, my reply to you, was an attack and I apologize.

            I considered it and it was incredibly insensitive .
            Additionally , I understand if you do not accept my apology .

            I need to get my shit under control here .

          32. Getting There says:

            I’m sorry to hear of the loss of your mom, WokeAF!

          33. WokeAF says:


            “I’m sorry to hear of the loss of your mom, WokeAF!”

            Thank u, all is well.

          34. Getting There says:

            WokeAF, I am sorry for the second message to your one. I have been thinking about the second part of your comment.
            Caroline and I recently talked about grief on another article which I can’t remember now. It is so different for all of us.
            After my grandma died, I cried and then drove to work. I loved her but work was my outlet. I can’t speak to your grief or mommypino’s or anything else’s grief. All I can say is that I recognize that this blog is special. It is an online blog, yes, and many of us can be on the streets and not know we just bumped into each other. But this blog has had people open up on pain and vulnerabilities that family and friends may not know. It makes this blog a family of sorts. And, yes, people like K and NA do become mentors or mom figures to some. What they think or say does matter internally, especially when dealing with multiple emotions as when grief is occurring. I’m thankful for this blog; the multiple personalities; and like you said to mommypino in that we learn from each other. I have grown from this blog and learned from many as well. Maybe this is what all online blogs are like. I don’t know as I only comment on famous pages on Instagram and very careful in those comments.

        2. WokeAF says:

          Hey! The time stamps thing is mine. Lol

          1. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, I’m sorry I’m not understanding your comments. 😬. I was writing it to K. I did read your older comments about the time stamps. Did I do something offensive to you? I was not punking anyone. I didn’t want to go back here again but it’s so hard to ignore the emails that I get where you are all discussing me as if I have now replaced Ed and then now I felt that I need to prove that I didn’t do a Silent Treatment. I was not accusing you of anything. I feel that no matter what I say or if I don’t say anything I am accused of something. And even just saying this I will probably accused of playing the victim card. This is so confusing and I feel so demonized and even objectified because now I am the subject of the analysis with people talking about my supposed to be lies or manipulations. It’s so frustrating. Just to be clear I have nothing against you WokeAF and I don’t hate K. I have never made it personal. But this is incredibly frustrating for me. I don’t want to make you feel bad. I guess I just suck at getting my thoughts across. And this is not gaslighting you I swear. I feel that no matter what I write I’m either playing the victim card or deflecting or gaslighting.

          2. MommyPino says:

            Oh and before I get accused of lying. I did say earlier that I might not have internet because I’m traveling but the bus that I’m on has WiFi that’s why I’m able to reply.

          3. WokeAF says:


          4. WokeAF says:

            The day the last of the cognitive dissonance slips away and I SNAP into Awareness of YET ANOTHER level of awareness…
            ….And the phrase I will always associate with it is;

            “….and the time stamps..” 🤣

            Life is utterly IRONIC.

            (Bc time is an illusion but I’ll just lv that)

          5. Twilight says:


            Yup time is nothing more then an illusion and man made construct we all accept and live by. 😉

          6. WokeAF says:


            “Yup time is nothing more then an illusion and man made construct we all accept and live by. 😉”

            Yeah baby like everything else ! U get me 😉 💗

          7. WokeAF says:

            “it’s so hard to ignore the emails that I get where you are all discussing me as if I have now replaced Ed “

            Lol 😂 MP
            I’m so sorry. You haven’t replaced Ed. There’s been a flurry of activity and please know I’m sending you best wishes

            And also please reply if you can because I’m genuinely worried that I’ve upset you badly in your grief, i’m actually quite concerned and I’d like to just know you’re OK

        3. WokeAF says:

          Inflammatory’s mine!

          should I feel bad? I feel kinda bad.

          1. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, you shouldn’t feel bad. I’m the one who started this when I overreacted. You on the other hand felt bad for me and went to help me. You were doing the right thing and following your values. You had courage to stand up for what you perceived needed help. There was nothing that you did wrong. I feel bad because I dragged you into this. It was not by manipulation by me but because I perceived something as an attack against me and a clique at work and so I reacted in a defensive way. I don’t believe that I am a narcissist regardless of what people here now think. I didn’t manipulate, lie and gaslight. But I am very sorry to K for overreacting and I have apologized maybe one or two times already. I will now ignore whatever provocations I see. I know who I am, the readers don’t. I’m far from being a lightweight, fuck, nobody here has any clue what kinds of stuff I have survived at. I don’t need to prove myself to anyone. So please don’t feel bad WokeAF and I’m sorry if my earlier post sounded like i was blaming you because I wasn’t.

          2. K says:

            I just want to clarify a few things to help you replace your ET with LT.

            1. There is no clique on narcsite that I am aware of.
            2. No one is attacking you.
            3. I don’t think you are a narcissist.
            4. You are still here so you are not a lightweight. A light weight would have left.

          3. WokeAF says:

            No MP I didn’t think you were blaming me.

            I felt a tiny tingle of guilt at something I said . That’s all.
            Gone as fast as it came up
            Very silly .

            I’m Woke As Fuck
            But I’m also funny as fuck

            Well, at least I think so.
            Humour shall triumph if I’m around !! I promise.

        4. WokeAF says:

          HOLY FUCK!

          That was a LOT

          IS THIS AN EXAM? Are you guys punking me?

          1. K says:

            I aim for brevity.

        5. WokeAF says:

          MP- re: your first comment – are you having a stroke?

          1. WokeAF says:

            Ok that’s it for me tonight. 😆 thanks for coming out I’ll be here all week! 💤

          2. WokeAF says:

            *personal fave* 😆 night all

          3. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, what are you trying to say?

          4. WokeAF says:


            The comment below was a total spur of the moment fuck up and I emailed you HG to ask you not to post it but said I would deal with the fallout if you did .

            MP ;I apologize for this comment it is inflammatory, As soon as I posted it I regretted it, and please ignore it .

            WokeAF on July 27, 2019 at 23:52

            MommyPino on July 27, 2019 at 13:50
            WokeAF, what are you trying to say?

            There would be no POINT to say anything except;

            1) First comment you dropped was a word salad extravaganza like I’ve never seen and that’s awesome bc it helped me understand.
            Helpful to “reader”

            2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.

            3) I hope you never leave this forum bc I love having you here . You’re helping me learn

          5. HG Tudor says:

            The email was not seen until after the comment had been moderated.

          6. MommyPino says:

            HG, was my comment a word salad?

            I wanted to do a consultation but I don’t have money. My husband doesn’t want me to do a consultation. I don’t have a job. I have said before when I got a job I will because I’ll have my own money by then. I was going to pay for a consultation when I get back by using some grocery money but I wanted to talk to you badly last night because I was so confused so I asked my husband if I could use the credit card but he said that we have had a lot of expenses recently. He also doesn’t think that I’m a narcissist so he thinks it’s unnecessary and ridiculous.

          7. MommyPino says:

            I guess I’m a narcissist. Ok, I’ll just accept it. It’s not like it can be fixed anyway.

          8. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, Where did you get this information? From HG?

            2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.

          9. WokeAF says:


            I have trouble believing that a narcissist would be so concerned if they were actually a narcissist .

            I am very sorry I’ve upset you
            Please do not be concerned with anything I have said .

            I was being cocky and I wasn’t paying attention to my mind or my behaviour

          10. WokeAF says:

            If you take what I have said so seriously that you decide youre a narcissist and leave this forum I will never be able to forgive myself

            I am not saying you’re a narcissist
            no one is saying you are a narcissist
            I was making some comments that I can explain to you at a later time but right now just please enjoy being with your family
            I am so sorry I upset you
            I can explain to you another time what was going on but for now just please don’t be upset it was totally an error on my part

          11. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, K and HG, I am so confused right now. I’m not sure what is the latest now, am I a narcissist or not? I am in Taiwan airport right now on my way home. I’m just really excited to see my family. I think I will just wait until all of your comments go through so I will now if I am currently considered a narcissist or not.

            By the way, regarding the the Queen of Victimhood comment, so K, from what I understand, that comment was your reaction to my comment to WokeAF. My comment was not meant to triangulate but that part about you provoking and doing cheap shots was an emotional statement from me after reading you call WokeAF some inflammatory things. I don’t remember exactly the order but you have accused me of lying and manipulating and gaslighting I think. I was getting worried with WokeAF getting more attacked and I wanted to tell her to not respond but I don’t have a way to privately tell her. It would have been nice if I can tell her privately so that you didn’t have to see it. But that additional sentence that I made was indeed offensive to you and inflammatory which was counter to my original intent to not offend you. It was driven by anger from the comments from you that I was reading. I agree that I was out of line there and offensive. I didn’t intend to triangulate but as I was writing it, anger started to boil in my head and added that jive against you.

          12. WokeAF says:


            I fucked up.

            I’m sorry.

          13. WokeAF says:

            God I’m such a dick

            I’ve had about six completely different perspectives in the last 48 hours .
            Shit is happening in my head right now .

            Those are reasons but they are not excuses for poor behaviour .

            I am attempting to get my shit under control and calm the fuck down .

        6. K says:

          It would really be helpful if you could remove your ET and replace it with LT.

          1. I never wrote that you were giving me a ST.
          2. I wrote: Ignoring questions is deflection (silent treatment/stonewalling*). That is a narcissistic trait BTW.
          3. I provided WAF with a clear example of your evasiveness (see comment).

          “So when you say “Ignoring question is deflection and silent treatment, implying that that is what I did to you, it is lying. You are telling everyone that I did silent treatment on you when in truth is I didn’t.”

          1. The above sentence paints you as the victim and me as the attacker. That’s a manipulation.
          2. When you repeatedly play the victim role, you remove responsibility for your behaviour by placing it onto someone/thing else.
          3. You have wasted so much time responding because you won’t stick to the facts and you keep embracing your self-made victimhood.

          This sentence is a blame shift:
          “You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you” (incorrect, that’s not how I feel at all; it’s not my fault you keep commenting on narcsite)

          *Stonewall: delay or block (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies, especially in politics. (Google definition)

          1. MommyPino says:

            OK so now I understand that you were not referring to me when you said that about Silent Treatments. So was the silent treatment just a general example of evasiveness but it wasn’t something that me or WokeAF did? I was seeing the discussions here as about the manipulations that I supposedly did.

            K, can I ask, there have been talk about a word salad and how only narcs use word salad. Did I use word salad in this whole thread. I know that I have been struggling to get my ideas across, first with my point of view of the extent of parental control on a minor, and then to defend myself.

            Also, the gaslighting, HG said that empaths know when they gaslight but Lessers and Mid-Rangers do not know when they gaslight. I honestly didn’t know that I gaslighted you. I thought that I was defending myself. HG said that narcs use it when they deploy the Twin Lines of Defense. Was my defense mechanism when I perceived that I was being passively called a tattletale asshole a Twin Line of Defense so does that mean per HG’s definition I am a narc? I wanted to do a consultation but my husband and I agreed that we spent so much money right now for the hospital bills, funeral and my trip that we can postpone the consultation. But what do you objectively think K, am I a narc and did I use the Twin Lines of Defense unknowingly? And gaslighted unknowingly?

            I have so many questions but for now if you could answer these it would be helpful to me and I would appreciate it. I think I have more questions on the victim card as well as I really don’t see myself as a victim. I have a lot of sad thoughts and guilt right now about my mom passing but I thought that I have always tried to face hardships in life with a good attitude and even my husband says that I rarely complain. So I don’t understand why here in this blog you think that I’m the Queen of Victimhood lies and cheap shots. Do you really believe that or were you just angry at me when you said that?

          2. K says:

            You are a kind person and you have a lot of feelings to process. Focus on that and your family. This is all secondary to that.

            1. Correct, neither you nor WokeAF have given me a ST and, to be clear, I did not state that you did.
            2. When an individual plays the Victim Card that’s a manipulation.
            3. Nobody deployed a word salad here.
            4. When I wrote: This comment reads like a word salad. I was being facetious (flippant; inappropriate humor)
            5. You are not a narcissist and you didn’t use the Twin Lines of Defence.
            6. You wrote conflicting statements, I was confused and doubted myself so I re-read the thread for accuracy.
            7. When I asked for clarification you were evasive.

            To properly address the Queen of Victimhood comment, I need to re-read the comment. I will RSVP ASAP.

          3. WokeAF says:

            I’m sorry I may actually have used triangulation against you with mommypino.
            In fact I think I did looking back .

          4. K says:

            It’s ok. Shit happens. Just learn from it and adjust your behaviour accordingly.

          5. K says:

            Ok, here are the comments. Please look at this with LT.

            MommyPino says:
            July 26, 2019 at 15:31
            WokeAF, I think that it’s best for us to stop responding and posting here except to ask HG. This is not going anywhere. She is trying to provoke us with personal attacks, lies and cheap shots just so we would end up responding to her again. I honestly don’t understand what is going on but this isn’t worth our time. I’m sorry that you got dragged into this because I reacted.

            K says:
            July 26, 2019 at 18:21
            Wow! Look who’s talking; The Queen of Victimhood, cheap shots and lies.

            Evidence of my lies?

            1. If I lied, it would be helpful if you could point it out to me and I will own it.
            2. You and WAF tossed around “tattletale asshole” which was unfair because you rewrote my comment to WAF, painting yourself as the victim and me as the attacker, which was incorrect.
            3. It wasn’t going anywhere because you were too busy playing the victim card and deflecting.
            4. I made observations and responded with aggressive and harsh comments.

          6. WokeAF says:

            This quote also indicates triangulation. When I was ignoring you it was not to triangulate you. Here I am trying to resolve things with you and she’s trying to steer me in a different direction

          7. K says:

            To be very clear, I didn’t think either of you were ignoring me. There were no STs deployed by anyone.

            When an individual plays the victim role, sometimes, they will try to get others to side with them and then engage in character assassination and scapegoating. That’s why it’s VERY important to look at the facts rather than jumping onto the “Victim Bandwagon”.

          8. WokeAF says:


          9. WokeAF says:

            Also noted character assassination and scapegoating, for keeping myself in check.

            Now… as a victim role move, I know a codependent at work Who is a side splitter . Would a victim codependent engage in character assassination and scapegoating just for fun even if they are not involved ?

          10. K says:

            Yes, there are myriad reasons for playing The Victim and one of those reasons is to create drama to avoid boredom.

          11. WokeAF says:

            Hmmm. I had Originally identified her as a codependent, but then lately I had become to wonder. I think my gut instinct was correct and that she is codependent but I would like to know more about this stuff and how it presents in so far as the negative behaviours

          12. MommyPino says:

            The comment by me complaining that I am writing a reply to you instead of being with my cousins was indeed ET driven because I thought that you were identifying another manipulation employed by me and it felt like now I’m being accused of doing silent treatment if I didn’t respond. I now see that since you didn’t accuse me of doing silent treatment, I was reacting towards my wrong perception and I was blaming you for it. I can see it. It was indeed ET. And thinking more about it I can see how that is playing the victim. So is that my problem, I get angry and play the victim?

          13. K says:

            Please, spend time with your family and enjoy your visit. That is very important.

            You are upset and I don’t blame you one bit. It would be very helpful if you could take a step back and look at things objectively.

            When an individual casts themselves in the victim role, then she/he is no longer responsible for her/his behaviour and then it becomes a shit storm of drama with finger pointing, deflection and projection.

          14. WokeAF says:


            MommyPino on July 27, 2019 at 13:50
            WokeAF, what are you trying to say?

            There would be no POINT to say anything except;

            1) First comment you dropped was a word salad extravaganza like I’ve never seen and that’s awesome bc it helped me understand.
            Helpful to “reader”

            2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.

            3) I hope you never leave this forum bc I love having you here . You’re helping me learn

      2. WokeAF says:

        I go with humour.

        I still see everyone as not “other”, it’s a thing . … Not the same, OBV, but in the absolute sense- not other. Pointing it out can help . But ….for me… Humour. I do find it all utterly delightful. Like yum yum hilarious. Truly.

        🙏 thanks sister 😉

      3. WokeAF says:

        K also- you using the correct terminology really helped and will help me , so I can reference what’s happening quickly and keep composure (w my babydaddy, future encounters, etc.) so 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

        1. MommyPino says:

          WokeAF, can you please explain to me what is going on. Why did you ask me if I was having a stroke in my first comment. Can you please explain like you’re explaining to a foreigner or a child the context. Was I out of line in my first comment? Please I just want to understand. I’m extremely confused by all of this for days. I don’t understand what is going on. Please point out to me what is wrong with my first comment. I still trust you but please let me know if you are turning against me. I’m having a hard time understanding what is going on.

          1. WokeAF says:

            -I asked if you were having a stroke bc your comment was a massive word salad and I was making a joke

            -you shouldn’t trust me. You don’t know me.
            None of us know each other or if what the other person is saying is truth or lies.
            It would be helpful for everyone to keep that filter on.

            -I’m not turning against you. I find you absolutely fantastic, and love reading what you say.

          2. Maria says:

            @WokeAF, I have not read really any of the posts over here because I have not watched Big Little Lies yet but I knew there was a lot of activity over here. I don’t know who is involved, who is right or wrong… I just see your apology and I scrolled back to glance at some of the older posts quickly and I can’t help but respond…

            My husband is manic depressive. He gets (in his words) “Jacked up” (manic) often, out if no where. Sometimes it causes so much anxiety for him that he tries to reach for anything tangible that he thinks can help him to explain the feeling.

            It’s sometimes scary for him to have these feelings just come out of no where, with no rhyme or reason but they do. As a matter of fact, he went into this state last night… he was calm all day and then suddenly something came over him…today, it caused him to pick a fight with me. I didn’t understand and told him that, and I pointed out all the reasons why I felt he was being unfair (he was making things up to try to blame me for what he was feeling inside) it ended up hitting him that I was right and being honest… struck him like lightning (I actually saw the moment the revelation hit him written on his face… and he ran across the room to me crying, hugged me and said he was so sorry. He’s okay now, thank God. He tries so hard, I see it. I feel terrible when this happens to him.

            Anyway, why I mentioned all of that is to say that the way you speak, jumping around, the word choices you use to describe the feelings that you feel and sometimes can’t contain, your confusion, strongly resembles the way my husband speaks when he describes his episodes and what I observe with my own eyes. I know he is helping to fight it and he’s being taken on a ride he doesn’t want to be on.

            I am new here and hope you won’t take it as an insult that I am pointing out my observation but I feel it would be wrong of me not to and really just want to help. Maybe I’m wrong but maybe it wouldn’t hurt for you to have a consultation with a professional about it? Or, maybe look up BPD and read up on manic episodes? I wouldn’t wish that anxiety on anyone and no matter what it is, I wish you peace.

          3. WokeAF says:

            Thank you for your comment

            I’m not manic depressive or bipolar . I’ve seen shrinks. I do have anxiety .
            This happens occasionally ( it might not happen for years , or it might happen three or four times in a year depending on the reason )

            What triggers it is ;

            A) I have a sudden awakening in awareness
            B) I’ve missed my anxiety pill for a couple days
            C) I experience a trauma (mom dying /, or find out I was cheated on , for example)

            This time it was A and also C because rapidly seeing a whole bunch of new shit about yourself and realizing all the places in your life you have played the victim is traumatic,

            and so is narc abuse which leads me to not trust what anyone says as a safeguard.

            And then I didn’t sleep. Just for shits and giggles .

            Yes I have been manic for about 48 hours . It’s OK though it has popped and I am deflating and relaxing . I am really hoping to hear back from Mommypino though -that she is OK because I feel genuinely like a total jerk considering what she’s dealing with right now

            The next time I see my doctor I will explain to him as best I can what happened and he’ll probably send me to a shrink and the shrink will say , how often does this happen ?
            and then I’ll say exactly what I just said to you .

            And then they’ll tell me to sleep regularly.

            Which is excellent advice .

            I will ask my doctor about manic-depressive though , Because while I do not get depressive, I do have insomnia on the regular. I’m a shift worker so sometimes I work nights sometimes I work mornings , afternoons- it messes with you

            Thank you for caring

          4. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, I just had time to read the new comment updates in my email and I still haven’t read everything. No need to worry about me. I just got back last night and was resting and enjoying my family. Brought my matrinarc’s ashes with me in my carry on suitcase but I forgot to take her out last night because I was so tired from the long flight and drive home. This morning my husband told me when I woke up that we have company downstairs. I asked who, wondering who would visit us that early. He said that she’s in the suitcase. It’s the quietest that I have ever seen her.

            Anyway don’t worry about all of that craziness. Honestly I didn’t believe that I’m a narcissist. I know myself pretty well. I was just going to agree with whatever the verdict in the blog was because I didn’t really care and I just wanted to move on. There are more important things.

            Thank you for your apologies. It’s all good now. And I’m sorry for your loss.

          5. WokeAF says:


            Omg PHEWF

            I actually was quite worried as I was going to sleep last night because you hadn’t checked back in and then I noticed you hadn’t checked in today that I can see

            But then I thought well she’s just like me she’s a big girl she’ll be OK
            But also I understand that we all have trauma from our narc abuse and I am so fucking sorry for being a jerk to you

            This is a huge relief to me and I can let out a big sigh !!

          6. WokeAF says:

            And just to add a little bit of levity

            My moms ashes had to be mailed to me (I live in a different province and even though she knew she was dying she was instructing her boyfriend not to tell me because she didn’t want me to worry so that really sucks)

            When the ashes arrived in the mail 2 months later as my stepdad LMR NARC Took his sweet ass time sending them to me )
            I said to the kids; “GRANDMA’S HERE!”

            It was funny .

            Anyhoooo glad you’re back and I’m sorry for YOUR loss

        2. K says:

          My pleasure WokeAF
          Always go with humor. The terminology here is fantastic and now I use it when I defend children who are being bullied in the school system.

          1. WokeAF says:

            I love that you do that . With all my heart.
            I will use the terminology also to assist my child.
            I’m going to make a list of all the terms and definitions one day and print it out for my kids too

          2. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            I am doing the same with my children. My nine-year old knows more about split thinking than the school psychologist.

          3. WokeAF says:

            And in the interest of clearing something up from the start of all this
            I fully support children having free agency to birth control and full body autonomy .

            I just have a little bit of trouble when people say someone “should” behave in a certain way . Under any circumstances . I do understand that it is betrayal to assist someone to get birth control and then go rat on them to their parents I understand that that is betrayal.

            I just have a big problem with the word “should”

            Of course if Bonnie ratted her out to MMM of course she betrayed her trust .

            But to say that you should keep someone’s trust is imposing, in my view , a reality (that even most people would experience and agree with.. including myself)
            -on to someone else

            And that’s projection .

            The “should” gives it away.

            It’s saying that because someone does something , they are obliged to behave in a certain manner and the truth is they are only obliged to behave in the manner that makes sense to them.

            otherwise someone else imposing their reality onto them .

            I just really wanted to clear that up so you know that of course I agree with you that it was a betrayal of trust and maybe now that it’s all died down you would see what I was trying to say .

            And I know this is not necessarily related to the big little lies thing and I know that’s pretty far out and it’s a lot of brain activity lol (ouch) but it’s not deflection I’m actually engaging in conversation. I’m not competing so that I’m going to win an argument of some kind or anything like that I’m honestly -I swear to HG -putting an awesome point of awareness right to you. (Regarding daily projection of normals and empaths.)

            ANY “should” is projection. I promise. But it’s pretty deep- youve got to really go into it – and then it becomes totally obvious .

            And it will help you pick out projections from empaths and normals- even if they don’t know they’re doing it-

            – And you’re right it is manipulation . Any projection is manipulation . Even if no harm is meant by it

          4. K says:

            HG used the word should in this comment. Do you think he’s projecting? Do you think he’s imposing his reality onto those who speak with him in consults?

            HG Tudor says:
            July 18, 2019 at 14:19
            You may share the outcomes if you wish, it is personal information pertaining to me that should not be disclosed. I don’t do it, i expect those who consult to abide by the terms too.

          5. WokeAF says:

            Drop it
            I was expressing a viewpoint. You don’t agree with it.,that’s fine .

          6. K says:

            Here’s a slice of humble pie:

            What you are doing is called Argument by Assertion. You are trying to argue a point by asserting that it is true, regardless of contradiction. (Wiki definition)

            Is mollyb5 projecting?

            mollyb5 says:
            July 29, 2019 at 02:19
            You should …it has a little person and ugly people and wolves and a tall awkward knight ..and many bearded men 😉

            Is MP projecting? (BTW her comment is a great argument against cultural hegemony and supports my argument)

            mommypino says:
            January 16, 2019 at 18:53

            I have come to a conclusion that a lot of the problems that we have is when we impose our own realities to other people. When a narcissist feels what they thought was love, that is their reality. We have our own reality of what love is and IT IS NOT compatible or in line with their reality of love, so now we decide to impose our reality to them by sticking with them and believing that we can make them or SHOULD make them love us the way we think love should be (based on our reality). Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives. Let them live their lives in their own realities and rules and we should live our own lives in our own realities and rules.


          7. WokeAF says:

            I was attempting to express an insight I’ve had

            I’m not trying to win an argument

            I don’t really follow the example you gave because my brain is not totally back online even though I did sleep for 12 hours yay

            You can keep trying if you want and I might review it when my brain is like a little more with it ,maybe I’ll get what you’re saying

          8. K says:

            To be clear, it’s not about winning. Your assertion isn’t very insightful.

            This is your argument: ANY “should” is projection.

            The evidence clearly contradicts your assertion.

          9. WokeAF says:

            Ok I had a coffee and reread

            Yes, both ppl are projecting their opinion

            Molly is projecting that the other persons reality would benefit from watching the show she doesn’t know if it would or not . She thinks that it would she’s demonstrating this by advising the other person to watch . It’s a mild and very innocent projection

            I see MP saying we should stop projecting our reality on the narc . In essence it’s probably good advice from my view . But really she doesn’t know what we should or shouldn’t do because she doesn’t know what our reality would benefit from the best .

            Anyway that explains the inside I’ve had a little bit further I’m not trying to win an argument just so you know I’m just explaining where I’m coming from and how I see the world

          10. K says:

            Reductio ad absurdum.

            According to your argument, HG, Mollyb5 and MP (and everyone else who uses the word “should” on narcsite) is a manipulator. Wow! We have a lot of manipulators on narcsite.

            You conveniently missed MP’s statement:

            “Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives.”

            (the operative word in MP’s sentence is: should, which means she is projecting)

          11. WokeAF says:

            I am saying that manipulation happens whether or not it is intended.

            Which you agreed to in your rape analogy.

            I had said not all manipulation is harmful. And that we all do it daily.

            Another example
            I had an extremely stable and loving childhood . Both parents were incredibly involved in my life there was no with use and I was raised in an intelligent and loving environment
            When I was 16 I discovered my mother was having an affair with a married neighbour .
            This brought about a chain events that had my mother Openly date this neighbour while both families watched,and then leave my father and my father become a drunk
            In an instant I went from a stable loving family to being emotionally abandoned by both parents.
            This led to me going out ,finding a narc and beginning a family of my own by having children with him very young

            My children have turned out to be two of the most beautiful empathic souls I’ve ever known .

            Now many people have told me that my mother should not have behaved that way
            That my mother should not of cheated on my father
            That my father should not have become a drunk

            While these”shoulds” May be agreeable to some , it is projecting an assumption that one knows the bigger picture .
            However if my parents had behaved how they “should” have behaved I would not have my two beautiful empathic children

            To say that if Bonnie takes Abby to get birth control she “should”not read her out to Madeline ,
            Implies that one thinks they know what’s best for someone else . It is projecting their own reality into the situation .
            If someone says as a blanket statement as you did and I cannot find the direct quote right now
            That if you are given a secret by someone you “should”keep it
            It implies that you have a general rule for how people “should” behave and that you know the bigger picture

            In HG‘s comment he is advising us that if we do not do not follow the rules of the blog then we are behaving in a way that is not in accordance for how he wants to run the blog .

            That’s a bit of a trickier use of the word “should”
            However in the debate on the situation with Bonnie I’m seeing things more along the lines of my demonstration in my earlier explanation .

            I hope this clears things up for you .
            I think in a very big picture way as I was trying to explain numerous times in this thread including my quantum theory example .

            I am not trying to call everyone here and manipulator , but I think that that IS what you were trying to do by listing TO MP ANY MYSELF our manipulations VIA narcissistic traits
            Which is why I piped up for MP to begin with

          12. K says:

            I am not the one denying Abby or Bonnie autonomy and control or judging them by my morality or culture. Abby knows what’s best for herself and it’s her choice to go to PP without informing anyone.

            This statement is deflection: I am saying that manipulation happens whether or not it is intended.

            This statement is wrong: Which you agreed to in your rape analogy. (that’s not an agreement by me at all)

            Intent is irrelevant; it’s still rape.

          13. WokeAF says:

            My mike did not pick up on what I was saying Lol
            Even my mike misunderstands me ha ha

            There’s no way for me to explain the way I see things without looking like a fucking head case (which I might well be for all I know ) so I’m gonna just drop it

          14. WokeAF says:

            Additionally ,

            “Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives.”

            (the operative word in MP’s sentence is: should, which means she is projecting)

            Yes. Yes she’s projecting . She is trying to coerce other people to behave in a certain way that she views would be more in harmony with the situation on this blog

            It is a mild and INNOCENT projection

          15. K says:

            Your argument is baseless and absurd and you are contradicting yourself in this paragraph below.

            I see MP saying we should stop projecting our reality on the narc . In essence it’s probably good advice from my view . But really she doesn’t know what we should or shouldn’t do because she doesn’t know what our reality would benefit from the best .

            It’s interesting how the behaviour on this thread belies the comment made on The Narcissist Manipulates : Bringing Up The Past

          16. WokeAF says:


            I understand what you’re saying .
            You engaged me to further define my POV
            I tried

            I think i can still interact on the blog without getting into conversational debate on semantics

            I’m sorry to anyone who took my attempt to clarify my POV as arrogant nonsense.
            ( and I totally understand if that’s how it’s coming off .)

            K I invited you to just drop it earlier but you seem to want to continue to engage So I humoured that for a while

            But I can see it’s just training to another debate on the right and wrong i’m not into it and there’s no way for me to explain the way I see things without looking like a fucking head awe ( Jaime will be for all I know )so I’m gonna just drop it

            K. Also thanks for pointing out the playing the victim card thing because that’s really interesting for me

          17. WokeAF says:


            Orienting myself in life is very difficult bc my viewpoint is so open

            And due to that my logic defences were not intact
            Which is how I attracted narcs

            I realize me explaining my perception may come off as me being a pretentious dickhead in order to prove a point. It wasn’t the intention.

            I e reread what I write and yes- it sounds absurd.

            So, that sucks. I’ll note that and try to stay concise on the blog.

          18. FYC says:

            Hi K, Perhaps this article will shed light on the MRN’s use of should:


            Any sentence can be rephrased to eliminate should.

            You could say, “I respect others’ privacy and their right to choose with whom they share personal information.”

            MP could say, “I believe parents are better positioned to make the best decisions for their children. Therefore, I would not observe the privacy of a minor and would tell the parent if a child asked me for a ride to PP.” She could add, “This is a common view for people from my cultural background.”

            Both of these minor alterations take ownership of personal views.

            I am not saying anyone “should” change their language, haha. I am just making the point that owning our position removes any imposition of personals views on another. Hope this helps bring closure to this convo.

          19. WokeAF says:

            YASSSSSS 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

            You took some of my big picture and made it smaller 🥰

          20. K says:

            Ha ha ha….perhaps I “should” read it. Fuck me, now I am manipulating myself! Thank you!!!

          21. FYC says:

            Haha K, no you are not. The word “should” is used by most people and not always about overt manipulation. When it’s used by a N you will feel the imposed judgement. I understood your message immediately. No manipulation involved.

          22. K says:

            Thank you FYC!
            I knew you that you knew. Your LT is at the forefront.

          23. FYC says:

            K, You are most welcome.

          24. FYC says:

            Moral of the story: Never “should” on anyone.

          25. WokeAF says:

            “Moral of the story: Never “should” on anyone“


          26. FYC says:

            Haha. I read that one a few years ago in a tweet and liked it. No worries about anything, WAF. You owned your part. Remember your epiphanies and turn the page. Besides, empaths don’t “hold grudges and nurture them like little pets” as MMM on BLL does. Besides, I think this accelerated KTN hits by about 700+, so the house really does win!

          27. WokeAF says:

            I’m sorry to everyone !!

            I’ve had a tsunami of insights like bam bam bam
            One after the other
            I guess something opened up the floodgates


            I’m trying to figure out what is happening because I would go so far as to say I am never like this or at least very very rarely

            I have been on this blog for a year and a half although I have not been active really

            First I was under the initial of just W, then I was DEMBunny and then I became WokeAF
            I’ve been reading and occasionally commenting for a year and a half so you can see I hope, that I am not one to come in and start drama normally

            I am unclear at this time why I started behaving like this all of a sudden and I am trying to own all of it

            I came in here and started drama and I don’t really know yet why
            As soon as I figure that out I will let you know

            MP I started putting some information together in my head and then I got confused and turned around and I’m really sorry

            And again that’s not excuse for my behaviour my behaviour was dramatic and inflammatory and out of line and I caused drama in a blog where there isn’t normally drama

            I’ve never seen drama anytime I came in here as far as I can remember , and if anyone has noticed me start drama in the past under any of my other names feel free to point it out so I can look at it

            I didn’t realize about the victim card and how that presents and codependency and how that presents and I got cocky and started mouthing off and I’m really not clear on why i started doing that

            I am considering signing off for a couple of days to clear my head but at the same time I have had an acceleration of awareness in the last couple of days and I don’t really want to close it down either

            I’m just going to cool my jets and get a really good nights sleep because I’ve slept approximately six hours in the last 72 because whenever I have an awakening of sorts I get super charged with some kind of positive prideful energy and I start buzzing and I can’t sleep

            Once again only a reason not an excuse for bad behaviour

            I don’t know why I’m like this in general I am aware it’s not normal

          28. K says:

            Sweet dreams WokeAF!

          29. WokeAF says:

            Yeah it’s only two in the afternoon here and I just dropped my kid off at a friends house for a sleepover and it’s the first night away from him I’ve had in like a month and a half and he’s autistic and so not getting a night off for a month and a half is a really big fucking deal and there’s no way I’m just gonna go to bed and sleep it away

            Excuse the run-on sentences I’m using my mic

            however what I am going to do is lay down on my couch and relax and maybe engage a little bit more and read some more and not get all riled up over something and then in a few hours I’m gonna go to bed and sleep like the dead for about 16 hours

          30. NarcAngel says:

            Sweet baby Jesus. Let us finally be closing the door on this.

            My proposal/suggestion:

            WokeAF: Sleep for 72 hours
            MommyP: Enjoy your time with your family
            K: Retire to the quiet of the library

            Then lets all make like a narc and act like that was then and this is now. Because that is the case. Any personal concerns left over can be discussed with HG in a consultation to avoid overlapping comments and any further misunderstanding.

            Please let us return to our regularly scheduled program and the assignment of analyzing FICTIONAL characters.

          31. WokeAF says:

            I’m good with this idea.

          32. K says:

            Ha ha ha….don’t look at me; I’m innocent and I made a valiant effort to stay on topic.

            Right now, I’m in my War Room plotting my next move. JK!

          33. WokeAF says:

            And the stupidest friggin thing about all of this

            I’ve just re-read the whole thing completely objectively

            And I’ve returned to exactly the same perception I had in the beginning. Of what was going on .

            And I’m just saying that because I find it weird

          34. K says:

            That’s incorrect. Using the word “should” is not projection in this context, it’s referring to a possible event or situation.

  8. E&L says:

    I wanted to tell you what a helpful person you have been to me on this blog that HG has generously afforded to us all. Both, your thoughts and searches are appreciated. Love to you! E

    1. K says:

      Thank you E&L!

      I love you too! Ha ha ha… the warm and fuzzies are making the cold and haties (plural of hate) go away!

      1. Lorelei says:

        K—I wanted to
        reply above but I was not able to. I just wanted to mention I think the school bullying work is awesome! I’m starting to talk to my kids about the pathological behaviors. Right now the topic is blame shifting. They like it. It’ll protect them by open discussion/examples..

        1. K says:

          Thank you Lorelei
          Excellent and keep up the good work because they are gonna need it now and in the future. I use HG’s lexicon when I speak to the children so they know the correct terms and they recognize the manipulations much quicker now.

  9. WokeAF says:

    Jesus F my head is splitting from re reading all these threads


    , “diluting, glossing over and minimizing all cause doubt and that is gas lighting, as well”

    HG – it gaslighting if an empath does this? If it’s unintentional and just the current perspective ? Is it still considered gaslighting?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Addressed in an alternative comment.

  10. WhoCares says:


    “HG Tudor
    FEBRUARY 12, 2019 AT 10:29
    Valid observation WS and the appropriate way is to not look at the intent but of the effect. If the behaviour causes you to feel that you are questioning yourself, you are hurt, puzzled, bewildering, questioning ‘your reality’ then it is gaslighting.”

    I can’t find a relevant ‘reply’ button in the thread below and I’m lost in all the confusion. However, one thing that I’m certain of is that I need to review “gaslighting.” Do you have a link to where the quotation a bit above took place? It looks like it may have been a good conversation.

    Thanks so much,

    1. K says:

      That comment can be located on this link. It’s a great article. Enjoy!

      1. WhoCares says:

        You’re the best, K.
        Much appreciated.

  11. K says:

    Responsible for my own idiocy!!

    That is a truthful statement.

    1. WokeAF says:

      Yes and genuinely hilarious to me as I do several cell-phone-in-the-freezer type of things on the daily 😂
      I will literally be hearing “WELL! You’re responsible for your own idiocy” in my head when my narrator pipes up after I do , lmao

      Good humour is everything.

      1. K says:

        True, there is good humor in everything.

      2. MommyPino says:

        WokeAF, I think that it’s best for us to stop responding and posting here except to ask HG. This is not going anywhere. She is trying to provoke us with personal attacks, lies and cheap shots just so we would end up responding to her again. I honestly don’t understand what is going on but this isn’t worth our time. I’m sorry that you got dragged into this because I reacted.

        1. WokeAF says:

          MP no no no , trust me, I got this. 😉I will be your empath whisperer .💕

        2. WokeAF says:

          Oh SHIT.,I just reread this.

          Shit. 🤦‍♀️

          Ok .

          MP I’m sorting things out w K bc my nature is to resolve conflict and I feel I’ve misunderstood, and BEEN misunderstood.
          Also I must seek my own truth in all this.

          We Need To sort out our differences separately, ok?
          I can only speak for myself at this point.
          I’m not taking sides. Pls understand that. I have no beef with you, but you’re on your own from this point , to resolve or not.
          I’m going to continue to resolve.

          1. MommyPino says:

            I understand WokeAF. I’m out of here. It’s 1:30 am here and I will literally and figuratively give it a rest. Will never come back in this thread again. Take care. 💕

          2. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            You are trying to be objective.

        3. K says:

          Wow! Look who’s talking; The Queen of Victimhood, cheap shots and lies.

          Evidence of my lies?

          1. WokeAF says:


            K on July 26, 2019 at 18:45
            Thank you WokeAF
            You are trying to be objective.

            Oh, it was more than trying to be objective . I got this.

  12. Whitney says:

    I voted Normal HG 🙂 The kind of guy I wouldn’t be interested in

  13. WokeAF says:

    I had the best laugh today 😆

    I put my cell phone in the freezer and my ice cream bar in my purse
    And later I reached into my purse and pulled out my ice cream bar
    I was holding the ice cream bar looking at it , totally like what in the actual fuck
    And then I thought to myself “oh my God I’m an idiot”
    And then I remembered what was said
    That I’m “Responsible for my own idiocy!!” 😂 😂 😂 😂

    1. MommyPino says:


      1. WokeAF says:

        Mommypino ;It’s my new fave phrase lol
        I honestly don’t think I’ll ever forget it cuz of this ,like I’m betting you won’t forget how Jesus took one for the team !

        1. K says:

          Excellent, taking ownership of your blatant idiocy is a step in the right direction. You are slowly progressing from victimhood to ownership of your behaviour. Wow!

          1. WokeAF says:

            K; ok , but can I have an example of me being in my own victimhood for reference pls thx

          2. K says:

            Here is a clear example:

            You wrote the quantum physics comment. It was incongruous and deflection.

            Rather than look at it objectively, you took offense.

            1. You wrote it.
            2. It made no sense in the context of the topic at hand.
            3. Instead of looking at it logically (yes, that’s deflection), you allowed your ET to turn you into a victim.

            Essentially, you are a victim of your own stupidity. So, I have to wonder: Are you really that clueless?

          3. WokeAF says:

            It makes sense trust me. But only in a really big picture kind of way and for that reason it was not helpful at the time .

            But still my question to you is this where did I turn myself into a victim about it? I thought I dealt with your referring to it as idiocy with quite a lot of humour actually

          4. WokeAF says:

            K ; is it possible you are interpreting my a) unfamiliarity w narcissistic traits and b) my desire to have it explained and c) my own perception of things as “blatant idiocy” ?

            I put myself in your place , and other than you misunderstanding my quantum physics comment, I don’t think I’ve displayed blatant idiocy

        2. MommyPino says:


          Haha that phrase was funny. 😜

          1. K says:

            I thought these phrases were ludicrous.

            1. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            2. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
            3. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)

  14. Whitney says:

    I will vote Madeleine is a super empath 😊
    I wasn’t sure if she was empathetic enough to be an empath just because when she heard about the other woman’s rape she didn’t totally know what to say.

    1. Whitney says:

      Whoops I meant to post that on her thread.
      HG 🙌🌹 you should give a prize if anyone gets them all right 😍😍

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed, but I doubt that will happen

        1. Whitney says:

          That’s exciting 😃
          This show has been soothing. I love the intro. I listen to the soundtrack all day on Spotify.

      2. WokeAF says:

        A prize like a free consult ? 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:


  15. WokeAF says:


    7.I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
    (evidence of my hypocrisy??)

    Evidence ;

    K on July 22, 2019 at 15:11

    Wrong. There are no accusations of narcissistic traits. Here’s a nifty thought: stick to the facts instead of twisting the truth.”

    K on July 23, 2019 at 16:26

    4.“mommypino is imposing her morality and cultural upbringing in this scenario, which is indicative of lack of a empathy, poor boundary recognition, entitlement and control”
    I misread that ? Those are narcissistic traits yes? That is what I meant ny my comment to Mommypino not to worry about projection if marc traits. If you meant it differently – that’s how I read it.

    You write;

    “(correct; MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits”

    1. MommyPino says:

      Hi WokeAF, K and NunyaBiz,

      So sorry I wasn’t able to check in here and catch up on the discussions. I have been visiting different towns in my mom’s province to visit and catch up with relatives and cousins and a lot of them don’t have wifi. I will have to read because it seems like the thread has been long since the last time I posted. Hope all is well and NunyaBiz take care and enjoy your self care time away. 💕. I scanned some of the new comments but I need to read them more thoroughly first to really understand the discussion. But WokeAF, no need to worry about me, I didn’t take it personally and I am just thankful that you understood where I was coming from even though we may have different perspectives. In the last post that I was posted I was happy after reading your comments so when I read K’s, it didn’t get me riled up because I felt understood by you and just one person is enough so it made me more understanding of where K was coming from also when she posted pointing out what she interpreted as my narcissistic behavior. I didn’t fully agree with everything she wrote (I do recognize she was right to an extent but not completely) but I didn’t feel like it mattered anyway because it was just still a difference in opinion and I was more glad and happy that you related and understood my perspective. 💕

      1. WokeAF says:

        Mommypino, ok cool I had wondered if you’d left the convo bc K had said it would be an absolute betrayal of trust (for Bonnie or , perhaps, anyone(?)) to tell the parents the kid was getting birth control, then ppl piped up in agreement – I wondered if you had taken that as getting ganged up on because you don’t agree.
        then K pointing out your narc traits , and you disappeared about then, so I thought jeez that was kinda harsh lol so I let my nature to defend the underdog come up, as then things got convoluted and my main interest in clarifying what I was asking about got lost for a minute as well and then *I* got MY narc traits pointed out , and by the end of it I was feeling about as confused as I do in conversations with my baby daddy! heh 😆 😂 it’s hard to stay on point when you’re getting shade.
        Glad you’re back ! I totally heard what you meant, and I understood why you thought you were being called a tattletale or whatever – I perceived it that way too,( although I don’t think it was on purpose.)

        1. WokeAF says:

          Sorry that was me rewriting history from my POV and triangulation no doubt as well

          If an empath does that by accident, how is it different than a narc?
          And what if it’s on purpose? Are there Standard Empaths that are highly narcissistic?

          1. WokeAF says:

            HG , are the non-sociopathic narcs able to feel empathy?

          2. MommyPino says:

            Hi WokeAF, They only have cognitive empathy. The Lessers have the least cognitive empathy as they have less cognitive abilities.


        2. MommyPino says:

          Thank you WokeAF,

          I feel bad that my absence caused this mess. I would prefer to retire from this discussion as I don’t see anything to gain from this. I thank you for your empathy to help the underdog. I really appreciate it. I night be very busy again tomorrow visiting with people so I’m not sure if I will be able to check my emails or the blog. My relatives haven’t seen me for more than three years so they almost wouldn’t let me leave easily when I visit them.

        3. K says:

          Risible. MP portrayed herself as the victim and you fell for it hook, line and sinker and then she projected her anger onto cb and NarcAngel by attacking them for supporting me. This manipulation is a blame shift, as well.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Mommypino; sorry if you already stated this ; I can’t find it in all the comments; but what school and Cadre of empath are you ? Thx

          2. MommyPino says:

            Hi WokeAF,

            I haven’t done an Empath Detector yet but I will do when I come back home from my trip. HG said in my comment after asking him if I am a Dirty Angel and he said that I’m an empath or he said no I’m not a narcissist (I can’t remember the exact words). Right now my guess is that I might be Standard and combination of Geyser and Magnet. I’ll find out for sure next month.

      2. WokeAF says:

        Mommypino – I tried to click your pic but nothing- no blog (mine is inactive) . HG – Is there a way we can get in touch w other commenters to chat in the future w/o putting our info out?is our blog necessary for this? I haven’t figure it out yet if it’s obvious

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. You are not allowed to contact one another through this blog in order to safeguard people using it.
          2. I warn people not to make contact with people from the blog because you do not know who you are dealing with.

          Keep your interaction here, believe me, it is for your own good.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Yes of course makes sense. There had been a comment about having someone here on speed dial. I thought perhaps the friendship extended beyond here . Thanks HG for lookin out for us

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            I caused that confusion. K and I have a long standing joke that if someone needs to be taken out that there is trust it needed to happen and one will help the other bury the body and take the secret to our graves. I value loyalty and trust. That is why I said I have her on speed dial. We do not know each other in real life. I have followed this conversation involving the 3 of you and have not joined in for several reasons. I will say this though: anyone who would betray my trust or accept to assist me and then use their morals and judgement to out me to others I would consider a tattletale and an asshole. So for example if a teen asked me to drive her to get birth control or even an abortion, I would reason that she came to me and not her parents for good reason. I believe she has dominion over her body and no one else, so no further input is required. I would let her talk it out and explain any consequences. Then if she still wanted to, I would take her. I could refuse to help also (I wouldn’t but its an option), but in either of those cases I would not betray them by exposing them and their secret no matter how much the parents believe it to be their right (their right being the right to control and exercise their judgement with final say). Outside looking in on this conversation – narc traits have come to the fore in all 3 of you (as K has identified) and it is an example of the emotional and varied thinking of empaths (even justice, honesty, and decency have different meanings depending where you sit). But ironically what it really emphasizes is our tenacity to hold to our beliefs and remain insistent that we be vindicated. The same tenacity that makes narcs lick their lips with anticipation and causes us to stay.

          4. K says:

            Thank you NarcAngel
            Because of this debate, I am much better at recognizing projection now. I agree; judging other people’s personal medical decisions by your beliefs or culture and sticking your nose into another’s choice to use BC or get an abortion is the height of hubris.

          5. WokeAF says:

            NarcAngel: ok thanks for clarifying re:being in contact outside of the blog

            I already understood your position on your own morals , and appreciate your language “I would consider an asshole” rather than blanket statements

            “Outside looking in on this conversation – narc traits have come to the fore in all 3 of you (as K has identified) “

            The only thing is, K never actually identified , nor admitted to , any of her OWN.
            And what K identified are narc MANIPULATIONS, not traits.
            Pride, selfishness, etc- those are traits, which we all have

            Deflection, gaslighting, etc those are narc manipulations, used to hide the truth and for personal gain.

            What is happening here is the opposite of that- trying to COMMUNICATE one’s personal truth , in the interest of MUTUAL gain.

            So shutting down a commenter by listing off perceived narc manipulations IS an attack. It’s saying the other person is just trying to control the outcome of the conversation to one’s own gain. To WIN. To tell the other person; you can’t talk , nothing you say is relevant – bc I’ve decided so. And my word is fact. (Which I was illustrating in my courtroom joke)

            MP admitted she misunderstood and got butthurt but STILL K is declaring her a liar and shooting jabs at me regarding my intelligence . Like COME ON !

            Because why, she felt gaslighted?! I felt confused and questioned myself too . But she’s not a narc and she’s obv not trying to gaslight me.

            When a person is manipulating you , yes you feel shitty but it’s not bc you feel shitty about their perceptions being wrong
            It’s bc you feel shitty bc they are messing w your reality.
            I wasn’t messing w K’s reality.
            MP wasnt messing w K’s reality. She was stating her own. Big difference.
            a clue is, the other person is still trying to communicate and reach understanding.

            I wanted to know if K thought her morals were THE morals. Which she does- and everyone else is A-moral (not “I would consider an asshole” as you said – but rather that they ARE amoral. Period)

            Just like MP is a liar, period
            Just like I made myself look like an idiot, period

            There’s no room there for communication. It’s a shut down.

            And yes , tenacity for vindication. lol 😂 I’ve said I’m kind a pit bull with a steak sometimes and my narcs do love it 💕

          6. NarcAngel says:

            K identified narc traits coming to the fore and I agreed in general for all 3 of you. I am not agreeing to specific manipulations. I think this is common in lively debate so was not surprised or unsettled by it. I was referring however to the contrast in individual interpretations of honesty and decency regarding the rights of the teen vs parental involvement and the actions of a third party, and the narcissistic trait of pride for example, allowing the discussion to become emotional and stray from just exchanging those interpretations into what appeared to be enforcing them on one another.

          7. WokeAF says:

            NA fair enough ! I agree. I’m trying to sort it all out

          8. K says:

            Wrong. I admitted that I have the narcissistic trait of pride and a sense of superiority. It’s interesting how you haven’t pointed out MP’s arrogance, pride or selfishness. You are clearly biased.

            Traits are a distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person. (Google definition)
            Narcissistic traits include manipulations.

            Wow! I didn’t shut down the conversation, however, mommypino repeatedly shut it down by ignoring my comments. That’s arrogance and lack of empathy. She made it all about herself and played the victim and you bought into it.

            MommyPino says:
            July 24, 2019 at 15:26
            Hi WokeAF,

            I didn’t bother to respond to K’a blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. (wow!)

            This paragraph below is a blame shift. Try taking ownership of your behaviour in this debate and I declared MP is a liar because she lied. That’s a fact.

            “MP admitted she misunderstood and got butthurt but STILL K is declaring her a liar and shooting jabs at me regarding my intelligence . Like COME ON”

            News flash! There’s no room for communication when you and MP keep blame shifting, manipulating, deflecting and playing the victim card.

          9. WokeAF says:

            She didn’t lie;
            She forgot what she said 😂
            Her ET was up and she lost the plot

            You repeatedly calling her a liar after this probably didn’t help matters . 😆

            It certainly didn’t win any favour from me, no offence. Lol but you were at the time also calling me various things including an idiot Lol!

          10. K says:

            Fact: MP lied.

            Still playing the victim card, I see. Poor MP is a victim of circumstance and you are a victim of your own stupidity.

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Again, for clarity for observers (I may be the only one remaining lol) what did you perceive as MP having lied about?

          12. K says:

            These statements.

            2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
            3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
            4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
            5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
            7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
            9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
            10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)

          13. WokeAF says:

            Fuck how do you keep up?! That would’ve taken me hours to compose. Do you have a photographic memory or something?

          14. K says:

            ha ha ha…the magic lies in my paste and copy skills.

          15. WokeAF says:

            Dude. I’m really not a stupid person. I may not be as hyper aware of when someone is playing a victim card or actually perceives the self to be a victim as you at this point in time

            and I would like to learn anything you have to offer, btw

          16. K says:

            Here’s part of the problem. Look at the facts rather than spending your time explaining it all away. When I read this comment, I saw: deflection, lack of accountability, minimizing/glossing over, denial, excuses and blame shifting. Unconscious or not; it’s still playing the victim card.

            Would you tell a rape victim: It wasn’t conscious though. He wasn’t raping you consciously.

            It wasn’t conscious though. She wasn’t doing it consciously. I had perhaps incorrectly understood manipulation to be conscious .When I said it’s not what she meant, I meant she wasn’t consciously trying to blame shift she actually perceived herself as a victim in that moment. And I understood why. She wasn’t playing the victim card U see? It was actually her perception. There’s a difference. Narcs play a victim card both consciously and unconsciously. Yes empaths can go onto their own victimhood of course. But that’s different than playing a victim card . I hope that makes sense

          17. WokeAF says:

            I do appreciate you bringing this whole victim card thing to my attention. I just want to say that right now

            I understand look for the facts but I am still learning bear with me

          18. K says:

            You are welcome WokeAF
            My empath sister has done it in the past and she argued with me, too. She was defensive but, after a lively debate, she started to realize her role in certain situations.

          19. WokeAF says:

            I’m gonna just drop this here, in the interest of comedy

            Right in the middle of this whole fucking thing I actually said

            “I do have inclinations to stand up for the underdog, but I keep them in moderation”


            Well apparently I do NOT keep them in moderation.
            What’s really terrifying is this whole thing was me thinking I WAS keeping them in moderation.

            Can you imagine me when I’m NOT “keeping them in moderation? “Yeah. 🤦‍♀️

            Which probably evidences just how strong my inclination to stand up for those who are being (as I perceive) bullied or misunderstood is in daily life

            It upsets me to a very very very deep level .

          20. WokeAF says:

            Boy did I learn about projecting my own nature/ explaining away behavior/ looking for the facts today

            I want to re-vote . On all of them . 😆

          21. WokeAF says:

            Is there anyway we can get this all on one thread can everyone just reply to this comment from now on is that possible I’m getting so confused
            And I’m going to start checking the time stamps because I think I’m answering things out of order

          22. WokeAF says:

            Ps pls check the time stamps in relation to what I post if you aren’t already.

          23. WokeAF says:

            This is actually all so funny to me now. Even though I am completely exhausted almost to the point of tears because this does take a toll on me.

            But… As long as no one freaks out on me, I will volunteer to be an empath to empath interpreter .

          24. WokeAF says:

            I swear to (HG) I’m not being a dick
            But you threw a few of these bombs at MP and I

            And the “you are Lying” one , on repeat, is what caused me to (temporarily) shut down my ability to understand you. (I knew MP wasn’t lying ,per se., )

          25. K says:

            You should reread MP’s comment to you, however, here is an excerpt.

            I didn’t bother to respond to K’a blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. I don’t feel the need to defend myself to her. I actually chuckled when I have read that comment from her. It was a sign for me to try to close the discussion with her in a polite or amicable way and just agree to disagree. That’s why I even shared an anecdote about my son to make it lighter. When people start to get personal instead of discussing ideas, it’s a sign that they have an armor and so any further discussion is pointless. I have read many inaccurate statements from K about me and I’m not sure if I really want to invest my time correcting her. I don’t think that people here really care. K has already armored up. And I know the truth. I am not a narcissist. I did not manipulate and lie; I just had a different perception. I did not play a victim; I voiced my frustration. I did not paint the Filipinos as victims. That is probably the most ridiculous thing that K has said. Ridiculous.

            1. I never wrote that she was a narcissist. (she is twisting my words)
            2. She got personal with NarcAngel and cb. (she should apologize to them both)
            3. She clearly played the victim and lied about it; that’s manipulation.
            4. She clearly lied and then she lied about lying.
            5. She painted herself and the Filipinos as victims, lied about it and then wrote: That is probably the most ridiculous thing that K has said. Ridiculous.
            6. This sentence is a blame shift and minimizing: I just had a different perception

            it is very clear, her perception is all about herself.

          26. WokeAF says:

            ( Jesus Christ this thread is so long it’s doing my head in )

            “it is very clear, her perception is all about herself.”

            I hear your points. But I can see MP’s perspective.
            I also see yours

            PLEASE I invite you to go re-read anything and everything I’ve written, and imagine you are me, and imagine that I really truly am trying to communicate with you in peace to the best of my ability.
            Also imagine that I am someone who somehow someway is able to understand where the person is coming from despite any conversational errors.
            And also imagine that you are someone who , because of this ability to see all perspectives, is super frustrated, and sometimes lets ET take over in cases of injustice, stood up for people that you perceive are being bullied in any way. ,

            Then re-read the conversation as mommypino, and imagine that you have misunderstood and thought that you were being attacked. And that the emotional thinking is speaking for you to a degree .

          27. K says:

            I agree; it is a long thread.

            Everything was going fine until MP painted herself as the victim and lashed out at NarcAngel and cb. It all went to hell real fast and then, rather than be objective, you jumped on the MP “victim bandwagon”.

            I will re-read everything again and you can’t have a fair fight when people fight unfairly by repeatedly removing culpability for their behaviour by blame shifting or deflecting. It is very frustrating.

        2. MommyPino says:

          Hi WokeAF, I did something to my privacy settings so that nobody can look at my avatar pic. I was worried that it might give away too much about my identity or how I look. But I don’t have any blogs. I just created a WP account to be able to comment here.

    2. K says:

      That was pathetic.

      You used the word “accusations” which is incorrect. There are no accusations; you are twisting the truth and that is manipulation.

      1. MommyPino says:

        K, are these not accusations?

        “MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits”

        1. K says:

          Those are facts.

          1. MommyPino says:

            K, those are not facts. They are your opinions. It I was reacting, not lying and manipulating. Anyway, I don’t really care what you think. Think what you want. I’m done with your circular conversations.

          2. K says:

            Wrong. You are a liar and a manipulator.

        2. WokeAF says:

          MOMMYPINO Yeah I just stopped reading .
          Don’t get baited in .

          We can’t communicate outside the blog, so this is just in response to your comment . 💕

          1. MommyPino says:


            I’m not going back to the courtroom. But the new gravatars are making me laugh.😂. Those are the cutest monsters! I guess if I would picture empath monsters they would look like those gravatars. 😂🤣. Thank you HG for the levity. We all need it!

          2. K says:

            You’re a liar and a lightweight.

            If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

          3. WokeAF says:

            Like what is this?? Exactly?

          4. K says:

            It was an observation of social mores. Do you actually read the comments or do you just respond with ET?

        3. WokeAF says:

          Mommypino I also just realized something. K stated you used gaslighting. You and I said this was an accusation.
          K stated it was NOT (by google definition) an accusation but that she was stating FACTS

          HG has said that even narcissistic-but-not-narcissists DO NOT USE gaslighting.
          Gaslighting is not used by empaths, only narcissists.
          Since these are not accusations but facts, according to K…then By that logic, K is stating (only facts, right?) that you are a narcissist.

          Which HG has confirmed you are not- that you are an empath

          Empaths do not use gaslighting

          By the power of the narcissistic trait of entitlement that I do not have, and the empowerment of logic defences, I declare all of K’s accusations toward both of us null and void
          She’s out of order
          This whole courtroom is out of order! 😂

          Case Dismissed!
          *bangs gravel*

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It is gavel and auctioneers use them, not judges in the UK, just so you know (common mistake made in courtroom dramas).

          2. MommyPino says:

            Ha! Very interesting. I learn so much information here. Even new words like spectre!

          3. WokeAF says:

            Lol! Yes, gavel! I’m responsible for my own idiocy again 😂

          4. K says:

            Fact: MP wrote all of these and they are all lies.
            Fact: She rewrote my comment and painted herself as the victim and that is gas lighting (see: Revision of History).
            Fact: MP is a manipulator.

            1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
            2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
            3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
            4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
            5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
            7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
            9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
            10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)


            Just curious, were you in the remedial classes as a child?

          5. K says:

            This one is incorrect and it was written by WAF.

            1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.

          6. MommyPino says:


            Haha this court is indeed out of order!!! Case dismissed! Let’s all go home! Er … go to a different thread! Let’s all start fresh! New topic! 🤣

      2. WokeAF says:

        K ; I perceived them as accusations .
        I was not twisting the truth. I was stating my perception. It was not manipulation.

    3. K says:

      It is very clear that I am going to have to walk you through this.

      Fact: MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits.

      That statement is an observation of social mores and it is factual, therefore, it is not an accusation.

      Accusation: an assertion or allegation of something, often as a result of opinion.*

      You used the word “accusation” which is inaccurate and it paints me as the attacker and MP as the victim, which is a blame shift BTW and a further manipulation.

      *that’s a Google definition.

      1. WokeAF says:

        K; pls see this comment and mine below it.

        K on July 25, 2019 at 14:00
        Fact: MP wrote all of these and they are all lies.
        Fact: She rewrote my comment and painted herself as the victim and that is gas lighting (see: Revision of History).
        Fact: MP is a manipulator.

        1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
        2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
        3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
        4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
        5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
        6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
        7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
        9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
        10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)

        Just curious, were you in the remedial classes as a child?

        —No. but I am such an empath that I deal with seeing almost every single perspective at every moment of every day. It’s overwhelming And I’ve been trying to clarify my perspective as honestly and clearly as I can. I was unclear on your perspectives on morality . Even the quantum physics comment made sense to me on a grand scale and it’s dufficult to express myself in that arena. It actually does relate to the concept of morality, as I don’t see ppl as individuals bc of my awareness level , I experience (about 90% of the time) us all as ….one. (For lack of a better word) and I dropped that in there , but not to provoke- rather to put the feels out to see if you or anyone could grab where I was coming from – and as a biguf humour to myself. And I’d love to engage in discussion on that, any time.
        Please stop insulting my intelligence.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Hg – just occurred to me/ is this what Contagion is ? Getting slammed constantly with all the perspectives and understanding and feeling them ? Or us that just regular empath shit?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I am not sure what you mean by ´getting slammed constantly with all the perspective´perhaps you could elaborate?

          2. WokeAF says:

            I could try. I don’t know how well I would do it in text it might be something for our consult .
            Briefly I am able to recognize where the other person is coming from and feel what they are feeling at the same time as seeing where I’m coming from and feeling what I’m feeling , and I can do that with several people at once

            It’s why I’ve moved to an island with a population of 10,000 and even that is too many
            When I go off island to shop, and a Walmart for example, im overwhelmed energetically .
            It took me a long time to figure out that I wasn’t feeling angry or irritated for no reason out of nowhere- that I was picking it up from people around me .

            . And in the past I did not know that some of that time I was projecting instead of receiving . The way I can differentiate usually is if I have to reach to try to see their perspective , or if I’m feeling something for absolutely no reason and not caused by any thought I’ve had.

            OK that wasn’t brief but is probably the best I can do outside of a consult

          3. Twilight says:


            “in response to WokeAF:

            Hg – just occurred to me/ is this what Contagion is ? Getting slammed constantly with all the perspectives and understanding and feeling them ? Or us that just regular empath shit?

            I am not sure what you mean by ´getting slammed constantly with all the perspective´perhaps you could elaborate?”

            I hope you don’t mind me stepping in and answering from my perspective.


            No it is not like being slammed constantly with all the perspectives and feeling them. It is more like the feeling of water washing over us, we never feel slammed yet can feel like we are drowning if we focus on a specific emotion.
            We have the ability to step out of our emotions and observe them and not let them effect us in the same manner as those who developed their awareness at a later stage.

          4. WokeAF says:

            Yeah, MY emotions aren’t the problem lol

          5. Twilight says:

            Your emotions seem to be an issue the other day when you were jumping between MP and K, I left due to it feeling like a screaming match to me.

            I do understand what it is like to become more aware and how it feels in the beginning, an awakening thou is different from becoming aware.

            Have you gone through an awakening?

          6. WokeAF says:


            I understand what you’re saying .
            The other day blew my mind as I said . I was picking up on K and MPs emotions- trying to play peacemaker , while still trying to explain myself. There was a moment when I became cocky and rude but I was feeling very affected by the hostility of the whole thing .
            To be clear there was not one moment when I was writing that I meant to sound hostile- and I did not feel hostile .

            There are times when I jump out of my usual position for example if I’m tired or hungry or stressed , or going thru something else.

            I’ve gone through an “awakening” 10 years ago, yes.
            Of course awakening is never ending .
            10 years ago I blew out of attachment to my ego
            But it wasn’t totally abiding, so I go back-and-forth which is from what I understand is fairly common for a lot of people .

            I experience emotions as energies that move through me , Usually triggered by thought -(which I also experience as something that just passes by ) and I witness my emotions or thoughts and then they dissipate again .

            Have you had an “enlightenment experience”yourself ?
            Would it make sense for me to say the I AM says hi ? lol
            Man I hope so I’d feel so good if someone here understand where I’m coming from at all

          7. WokeAF says:


            Also the other day I jumped in here without my barriers up . Stupidly .
            I am mediately picked up on what mommypino was feeling and why
            And I was off to the races !!!! Lol 😆

            I don’t engage in online blogs normally .
            It was a good little lesson to check myself before I wreck myself

          8. WokeAF says:


            In other words, if you’re similar to me you might actually know what I’m talking about when I say this ;

            I get pulled into duality by certain triggers .
            I can forget these are not my emotions that I am experiencing
            In fact I can forget that there is no “I” here at all lol
            And therefore for brief periods of time I engage as if there is a “person” with a perspective that I actually need to defend . Lol! And all the unpleasant emotions that come with it .

            Sensing that someone is feeling bullied is one of those triggers
            So is someone trying to argue as truth, anything that leads to separation

            It’s been a journey trying to separate what I’m picking up from other people and keeping it at a distance so that I don’t experience their emotions

            I can become a right fired up when I feel that someone’s freedom to their perspective is being attacked witches I understand just emotional thinking , But sometimes it helps the other person too.

            OK will now that I’ve explained that I just put my straight jacket back on and see what your response is

          9. WokeAF says:

            Twilight (et al)

            I’m still pretty shaky from all of this highly empathic interaction
            I’ve explained my general disposition as best I can and this whole thing about contagion is very fascinating but I think I’m going to sign out for the night

            A new zombie movie, a new horror movie, and the new season of orange is the new black have just been released on Netflix so I’m going to chill and to tin you to restabilize as I’ve been trying to do for the last two days

            It’s very painful for me to be drawn into negative emotion, of other people and of myself . Are usually don’t allow it to happen .

            Aaaaand because it’s hard to communicate from such a deep level sometimes i’m checking out for the night I think and I might pop on again tomorrow or I might just take a break
            I appreciate all the discussion 💕

            ZOMBIE TIME 🧟‍♀️ 🍿

          10. Twilight says:


            Don’t assume I didn’t read it.

            You were jumping all over the place, nothing wrong with this I am just more calm. Kinda like standing in the eye of a hurricane……step outside of the eye and well I am not so calm anymore, maintaining my focus was never a problem until Jon and it took me awhile to regain it.

          11. WokeAF says:

            Omg!! I just recalled that you were the one that picked up what I threw down when I mentioned time being an illusion !!!!

            You get it ?you get it !!!?!
            holy fuck nice to meet you !!!

            Or to use my own personal private joke
            Nice to meet me !!

          12. Twilight says:


            Yes I was the one who came back with agreeing with you on time, you want to take things to a different level quantum physics answers many questions.
            I was also the one who said contagions feel 100x more.

            I am a Contagion Empath and yes HG told me this long ago by his definition of Empaths, I go by a different “label” in my real life and one I don’t share unless a person actually understands what I am speaking of.

            I “see” the world different from others and know or should say have met many who are close due to being HSP naturally not HSP due to environment developing this to survive.

            Many think they feel 100x more (and this feeling is real to them) yet it is nothing more then a drop in the ocean in comparison.

            For me i “see” people in an energetic sense before i ever see them physically, one reason why I can go out in the woods on a moonless night alone I can “see” everything as if it is daylight because I am using my senses and not my eyes. Everything has an energetic signature.

            I am rambling and need to get ready for work.

            If you really want to know what school you belong to consult with HG, he is an ultra for a reason and if many actually could “see” him it wouldn’t be question. I knew the moment our paths crossed.

          13. WokeAF says:

            Don’t ya wonder , since HG doesn’t have a “self” either – that maybe he isn’t just the same as the “enlightened” , except he went in the other direction . I’ve often wondered.

          14. WokeAF says:

            Twilight you really DIDNT read the thread did you lol! I don’t blame you . Good choice. I’m EFFED UP from the experience. Go re-read my comments/ I tried to put this out there so much I was fishing like crazy !

          15. WokeAF says:

            * HG
            Additionally, w my narcs, I would know they were lying, I would know they felt angry or whatever, but they’d reassure me it was untrue. I would doubt my perception, and believe their words instead of what I was picking up.
            For the first few times I’d reunite w a narc, I’d feel physically/energetically poisoned afterwards, that’s exactly how it would describe it to my friends -so I’d put up a barrier and the poisoned feeling would get numbed.
            When I would go a few days no contact I would feel 95% better and recognize that I had felt unwell in his presence

            This is why I don’t take other peoples problems on as my own normally . It upsets my internal feeling of serenity .

          16. WokeAF says:

            OH. MY . GOD.

            I just pulled up and reread the 3 strands of empathy article
            So- All the empaths feel contagion right?
            When I asked someone to describe to me what a contagion was they had said it was someone that feels things 100 times more than the rest of us empaths
            And I thought and I believe I even commented if I had to feel things 100 times more than the way I feel them I probably -in fact Id for sure -be in the loony bin

            I do believe this is why I had such a freaking meltdown when I started engaging on here .

            When we did our consult I spoke mainly about my narc and about his girlfriend and I spoke very little about myself

            I think I might be contagion?! Or at least have a high degree of it? This makes so much sense now if so

            And if Bonnie is in fact contagion it makes even more sense because Bonnie is the character I related to the most and because I thought I was a standard magnet, that’s what I voted she was Haha

          17. HG Tudor says:

            No, not all empathy’s feel the contagion.

          18. WokeAF says:

            In the interest of this not turning into a public personal consultation I’ll rewrite all that in a concise manner

            -feeling other peoples emotions even if you don’t want to
            – being able to see their perspective accordingly
            – being able to flash back-and-forth from each person‘s perspective and feelings and experience them as if they are one’s own (while having awareness that they are not one’s own – although this was not always the case )

            I was under the impression until pretty much today that this is was not terribly rare in empaths – But then again I didn’t realize about the different degrees

            Not being able to watch the news because of this. Lol !

            too painful.


          19. HG Tudor says:

            Those are along the right lines, yes.

          20. WokeAF says:

            Omg it’s soooooo obvious lmfao

            I had just thought I was like psychic or something . Well I mean I am I have dreams that come true and I’ve had “supernatural” and “spiritual” experiences or whatever but that’s just say contagion makes a lot of sense right now oh my god what a relief
            so now I have to consult with you to make sure 💯 ( but it’s pretty obvious at least have high levels of contagion )
            and then figure out what your advice is for orienting myself in the world besides living on tiny islands and avoiding people and not getting involved in online emotional discussions

        2. WokeAF says:

          Again, ignore . I am re reading the thread (AGAIN) and when I speak about my perspectives on certain topics I clearly sound insane.
          And it’s irrelevant.

          1. K says:

            To help you understand my POV, when people introduce irrelevancies (deflection) the conversation becomes tedious.

          2. WokeAF says:

            Of course. I wasn’t in my usual disposition.
            I dunno why I was being such an ass.
            Thing is, occasionally I might spit something at you that you think is irrelevant, when for me( and perhaps even others) it might not be.
            If it is deflection and takes away from the main point too much I’m cool w you pointing it out.

          3. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            The occasional irrelevancy is fine, however, in this case, it may have escalated rather than deescalated the situation.

          4. WokeAF says:

            It definitely escalated the situation. But I was completely unconscious during the entire situation. I will not be unconscious again if I can help it

          5. HG Tudor says:

            How did you manage to type if you were unconscious?!!

          6. WokeAF says:

            Lol! Hello HG! I’m sorry. I should say, I was not paying attention to my behaviour.

          7. WokeAF says:

            HG although to be honest with you in comparison it does feel like I was unconscious compared to how I feel right now ha ha

          8. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I appreciate the effort to be conscious. It was just a kerfuffle.

      2. WokeAF says:

        I used the word accusation bc at the time I perceived them as such. I was speaking honestly and it was not a blame shift or a manipulation. It was my perception.

        1. K says:

          I get what you are saying, however, when an individual uses the word “Accusation”, it has the potential to make the conversation become incendiary. It escalates rather than deescalates.

          1. WokeAF says:

            “I get what you are saying, however, when an individual uses the word “Accusation”, it has the potential to make the conversation become incendiary. It escalates rather than deescalates.”

            Well shit , yeah! But so does stating “facts” , in this particular case. Lol

          2. K says:

            Fact: may be understood as information that makes a true sentence true. That’s a Google definition.

            Fact: MP is a liar.

          3. WokeAF says:

            You’re saying MP is lying on purpose then?

          4. K says:

            I can’t tell you her state of mind when she lied because I don’t know what it was.

  16. cb says:

    For the record You definitely have points and you write arguments and thoughts very clearly.

    I’m sure most readers and HG see that both You and K are Quality debaters, MommyPino,
    even if K convinced me in this particular matter.

    1. MommyPino says:

      Thank you cb. To be honest, I’m not concerned about trying to convince anyone. I have said repeatedly that I respect other perspectives. I didn’t even consider this as a debate. I was just being honest and expressing why I understood Madeline for being angry at Bonnie and why I would be upset as a parent. I was blindsided by the asshole and tattletale. I was under the impression that there was mutual respect and acceptance so I was not afraid to express my opinion. In fact you can look that I even said I love you to K before I have read the other comment. Well don’t I feel foolish now. Thank you for your kind words.

      And for the record, I have never betrayed anybody’s trust nor have I exposed anyone’s secret that was shared to me. I have also said that I would only inform the parent if I’m sure that the parent is not abusive and therefore the whole possibility that K said of endangering the child is not something that I would allow either. But I guess I am automatically a bad guy because I’m pro life and refuses to take someone to Planned Parenthood. I just have to say, if my participation is asked for, I do have the right to decline if what is being asked of me is against my conscience. And also nobody who knows me in real life would ever ask me to help them get abortion because everyone who knows me knows clearly where I stand. I’m not mysterious like HG. And if someone is not sure, all that they have to do is ask me and I will tell them the truth.

      Thank you again cb. And I really don’t mind when people are Pro Choice or have had abortion. I understand that women in some countries have that right. I respect that. It’s just the mockery of what I said I stand for that has offended me. I can say that I was very careful to be respectful each time I responded, except for the knee jerk response that I sent. It’s not about winning points for me. I just got offended for being mocked.

  17. WokeAF says:

    FIVE MONTHS !!! ?

    1. K says:

      Ha ha ha…I have added throttle to the midrange list of physical abuse.

      1. WokeAF says:

        Yeah my LMR punched me in the face once “in his sleep” . He thought it was hilarious too. Good times. My LMR one time grabbed my arm right enough to leave bruises. He also “accidentally “ threw the dog’s stick (more like a friggin club) at my back. That hurt. He also found that funny. And other such “accidents”.

        My friend had a narc who would pinch her and cause damage that wasn’t too bad but didn’t show with clothing on.

        1. K says:

          LMRNs are prone to violence and, sometimes, I confuse them with ULNs. My MMRN’s mother would pinch his leg under the dinner table. She was very controlling and sneaky. They hide it better.

  18. Mercy says:

    I feel like I’m the only one not watching this. Can I get it on prime or do I have to have HBO?

    1. E&L says:

      I can’t watch it. I watched the first episode and it was great. When I sought out clips of additional episodes from season one and saw Perry being mobbed by the group of women, I could not take it. I was imagining the horror and fear he may have experienced. I just can’t do it right now. Besides, the actor, Alexander Skarsgard is too gorgeous to kill off. What a waste! I know he is a physical abuser, but I am strictly referring to the actor. How’s that for some shallow appreciation of physical appearance!

      1. MB says:

        E&L, he is yummy IMO too. I like to think he’s a good guy IRL. I’d eat him with a spoon. (There I go again…sex on the brain.)

  19. WokeAF says:

    Real empathy for the nanny being let go

    1. WokeAF says:

      Renata I mean. Sorry wrong post lol

  20. WokeAF says:

    HG , don’t “normals” have some empathic traits, and even some narc traits, ?
    How does one differentiate between a normal, and an emphatic person who’s not an empath ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They do.
      Less empathy.

    2. alexissmith2016 says:

      I struggled with this too WokeAF to begin with. So I spent my time learning about Ns first, then empaths. then eventualy the normals plus those who are narcissistic become clearer. Well that’s how it worked for me.

      they have clear boundaries so they won’t go out of their way to help you but if its not out of their way etc they’ll still give you a hand. Plus they don’t ST you like an N would.

      that’s just a couple of simple tips anywya. there is a fair bit more too it than that.

      Maybe HG could do an article on the ‘normals’ to help us distinguish. I appreciate this website is about Ns but in order for us to determine someone is not an N, it would be pretty helpful.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        God my grammar is shocking when I type without thinking and don’t bother to review what I’ve written (which is most of the time)! Some of my sentences don’t even make sense to me!

      2. WokeAF says:

        Alexis I feel ya
        I lived in Toronto (downtown) from birth to age 31
        From age 31-44 I’ve been on a small new age /hippie/farmer island in BC , population of 10,000
        -and I swear there’s only narcs and empaths and super empaths LMAO

        The normals tend to flee rather quickly I suspect
        So I don’t have a lot of normal-case-studies that I can find IRL lol

        I can barely remember life when even I (a standard magnet) would walk past the homeless without a second thought . (Never mind taking them a sandwich or home for the night Lol!)

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          Gosh Woke! Could you not move from there? I don’t know your particular circumstances but it doesn’t sound terribly healthy.

          Its on a completely different scale but I used to go to a place I referred to as ‘the watering hole’ some time ago now. I called it this because my N was likely a MR who thought he was a greater and he loved the PDs and this place was full of them. I’d estimate 80% PD 18% empath with at most 2% normals. He would target the empaths too, but there were a whole range of intellects at this place so he had plenty of people he could manipulate and he thrived on it!

          It was a great observational experience.

          In my work environment I come across many Ns too but there is far more of a balance between all the different personality types so its much healthier.

          Are you happy where you live Woke?

          1. WokeAF says:

            Oh I’m super happy! It’s a magical place. It’s known as such. Nobody had to lock their doors, the crime rate is near zero, children never go missing, and if you’re in trouble the whole community comes to help you. Im pretty sure we aren’t quite in the same dimension as the rest of the world lol.
            But it’s a very strong-female-empath island.,. And weak male narcs love it bc of that. ESP the victim cadre bc the women, not knowing what they are, adopt them in. Then when they get tossed, another empath is ready to adopt them bc the population is low on singles between 25-50
            Mostly we all get along. We are protective of each other and our island , and I’ve inky once seen a pregnant teen in our high school in 15 years – the kids are well nurtured by a fairly emotionally evolved community- for the most part. Shit happens of course. But for example if you get called out for a rape – you’d be visited by several good ole boys who will give you a good beating and then escort you off the island .
            I love it here. Even the narcs have to lay low bc everyone knows if you fuck up too bad.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah that sounds a bit better. I’m pleased you’re happy there WokeAF 🙂

          3. WokeAF says:

            Alexis I would like to add , to my comment about the almost zero Preg rate in our high school – I’m quite defin sure there are abortions. It’s just that they are highly educated on birth control and other options, and they’re shown that’s there’s a really big life for them outside high school. I’ve only seen one full term, kept the baby pregnancy in 15 years is all. It’s got a running student body pop of 500 so that’s pretty good. It’s also super LGBTQ positive. Just in my daughters friend group I knew one female-male trans that after high school decided to stay female physically after high school, one that went through with hormones, one female that identifies as a-sexual, and one non-binary.
            It’s a good place to live 95 percent of the graduates leave the island to seek their education, or work , in other places of the province or the world, and a good portion come back in their late 20’s or 30’s to raise their own kids here.
            It’s a tourist destination so it’s expensive to live here – but I live in a cottage literally across the street from the ocean and as a single mom I can afford it here if I live without many materialistic goods. It’s worth it.
            A large portion of our pop is over retirement age , and that’s where you find more “normals” I suppose, but empathic normals even still.
            A huge portion of the women 17-60 dress and look similar to Bonnie. And behave very similarly. We have our share of rich Renatas and Gordons but they mostly live here in the summer in their vacation homes.
            We have a number of Nathan’s and lower functioning Nathans who hook up w the Bonnie’s.

  21. nunya biz says:

    I didn’t think you were being provocative, MP, just something I responded to. Your opinion about M and Ed is shared by others, I’m sure. Everyone isn’t going to feel the same way.

    My reason for saying something about it is because I have for some time felt that women get more sexual pressure than men do to be “pleasing” in order to “keep a man”. I used to believe that women should provide sex and would say it out loud, so I get the opinion. I’ve changed my mind. I feel that my doing something like that is actually leaning more toward a manipulation than a healthy sex life if it becomes out of a sense of obligation rather than desire and that empaths can tend to do that. Men rarely get the same pressure to “perform” once married. And I really do think that far more pressure is put on being faithful and almost none on an ability to actually emotionally communicate, which is considered a woman’s problem to deal with if he doesn’t. And when I look at it I see them as equal issues.
    It’s just something I have a strong opinion about.

    1. MommyPino says:

      Hi NunyaBiz, I wasn’t sure if my statement was provocative or not. It wasn’t my intention to be provocative and I’m glad that you said it didn’t provoke you.
      My dad’s wife I think was a MRN and her dad whom I think was an Upper MRN used to tell her that he wished that she was a boy and didn’t allow her to study to be a doctor because she was a woman and just had her enrolled in Stanford to study Home Economics (this was in the fifties I think). My dad and her first two children were girls and she wanted to keep trying until they have a boy. My third sibling was born (a boy) and she told my dad that they don’t need to have sex anymore because they already have a boy. He tried so many times to make her interested like buying her beautiful nightgowns only for her to get mad at him for disrespecting her by buying nightgowns like that. Fast forward almost twenty years my sex deprived dad met my mom, had an affair and had me. Fast forward 26 years I moved in with my dad to the US and he tells me his story and makes me promise to him that someday when I get married I should do two things: 1. always appreciate my husband’s gifts to me even if I thought that the gift was ugly or not my style, just look at his effort and desire to make me happy and 2. do not refuse sex especially when my husband has been loving towards me.
      That’s really my background story why I said it’s unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them. Why stay married to someone you’re not attracted enough to have sex with? I think that my dad was handsome by the way but for some reason she seemed to think that sex was dirty (according to his story). But I totally understand that there are many various reasons for married couple to not have sex together. In mine and my husband’s case, I made this very bad decision (which was highly suggested to my by my older stepdaughter was which I regret listening to) to co-sleep with our two year old. Now she owns our bed and we can only do it in the couch when both kids are asleep (we out blankets over it so the couch is clean!) and it has become very seldom and hard to find opportunities to be able to do it. We both love sex and the co-sleeping decision was really bad.
      I do agree that the pressure is more expected from women. I think that most people seem unaware of narcissist husbands who withdraw intimacy from the wife during devaluation and cheat. I think that is absolutely unfair as well. I think that it goes for both sex. But I may be completely wrong here but for couples that do not cheat, I think that biologically men seem to need sex more than the woman. It just seems for my personal marriage my husband celebrates more whenever we are going to be able to do it.

      1. nunya biz says:

        See, I guess that’s what I’m saying, and I really don’t mind if we don’t agree on it at all, but I guess I don’t think the man needs sex more. I feel like that’s an idea and not a fact. Also I think sometimes the man is closeted gay or an unadmitted voyeur/ cuckold, has a porn addiction that interferes with intimacy and has no true need for physical sex or has PE that he won’t address, has secrets or 800 other things. Could be reverse for a woman also.

      2. MommyPino says:

        NunyaBiz, just to avoid possible confusion, my question on the why stay married while not having sex was not directed towards you and was a rhetorical question inspired by my dad’s story. I understand that there are issues in your marriage and one big issue is that he doesn’t give you the connection that you need as his wife. I certainly don’t blame you for not wanting sex as I know that I will be the same if I was in your situation. I cannot have sex with someone that I don’t feel I have a loving connection with even if he happens to be my husband. I know that you are not doing it to hurt or manipulate or have power over him. My dad’s wife (if his story was accurate) seemed to do it to have power over him.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Aw thanks, MP. I may yet work on the issue, just taking some time, it’s been too crazy. I just know a lot of couples likely not having sex, some divorcing, some no.

  22. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Either a standard or normal with a reasonable split or empathic/narc traits not terribly strong either way. Perhaps leaning more towards empath.

    I don’t feel attracted to him so he’s definitely not an N lol

    1. WokeAF says:

      Haha same

  23. Caroline R says:

    Season 2, EP. 5
    “This planet is inhabited by ‘nutf**ks!”


    We feel your pain Ed.
    You’re one of us.
    We’ve all said similar words about the Ns in our lives!

    (Not about HG.

    1. Caroline R says:

      Not Ed, I meant Nathan speaking about Ed!
      Apologies to all for the error.
      (I need to eat. I can’t function with low blood sugar).

  24. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Quote of The Morning: [`Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.` ] ~~K

    1. K says:

      Ha ha ha…thanks for my afternoon laugh!

  25. WokeAF says:

    I rly need clarification on “empathic but not an empath” vs. “Normal”

  26. Geminimom says:

    Standard empath. I don’t think he creates drama. He likes females has a job, and seems to go with the flow.

  27. nunya biz says:

    I don’t know yet, MP, I just finished S1E5. I wonder if she will be, my mother in law is so strange, but I will definitely tell you if she is. My mother in law very much likes to talk about legal things and newspaper articles a lot. She’ll read a newspaper article from the clipping she saved out loud to my husband, he hates it. She talks about her death and how it is to be dealt with planning-wise. God forbid it’s a future fake. But she triangulated with it once and she likes to explain the will details, she told my husband in front of me that she has a particular item for each of her three children (she has four children).
    Story is that she used to work at the town hall in the tiny town they grew up in and when people arrived to do random business such as licensing or fines or property what have you’s she would innocently get them to talk about their pets. If they had pets and she had no record she would then send them violation notices for pet licenses. I’ll see if Meryl Streep is like that, lol.

  28. misstasia says:

    I was leaning towards mrn because of his victim/martyr attitude. However, he seems too normal with narcissistic and empathic traits. An mrn would have never let his wife go on about her ex all the time and pretty much run the household he wouldn’t run after her storming out to see if she was alright either.
    I am just watching the first season again to familiarize my self with characters again before I watch the second season.

    1. WokeAF says:

      You said

      I was leaning towards mrn because of his victim/martyr attitude. However, he seems too normal with narcissistic and empathic traits. An mrn would have never let his wife go on about her ex all the time

      Truth. But a LMR would. Mine did.
      I could go on about my ex until the cows came home- AS LONG AS IT WAS IN A NEGATIVE MANNER

  29. mollyb5 says:

    I only watched a few episodes yesterday . I saw him reject her in bed , I saw him giving her a silent treatment, I saw him purposely hurting her in front of another woman at lunch . Passive aggressive stuff . Mid ranger ? I would need to see more .

    1. jessrnny says:

      Or a normal reaction after getting cheated on and lied to? Possibly..

      1. Presque Vu says:

        Yeah I think he’s a normal.. I wouldn’t say his reactions are bad for what he’s been through at all.

      2. mollyb5 says:

        Not sure …I’m watching some more.

      3. mollyb5 says:

        Yeh I’m watching a previous episode and he seems concerned and loving soo. I need to see more .

        1. nunya biz says:

          Yeah molly, he seemed more concerned when I got to episode 3.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            I think he likes controlling her and watching her suffer , and the silent treatment he gives her when she is suggesting a couples retreat …and then makes fun of her along with the her daughter as his only response. This is not normal …sorry….It’s wimpy passive aggressive ..and a power play. He even says he was acting one way …and now decided to act another way …since it didn’t get the response he wanted. ( when she walked up to the he was having lunch

          2. mollyb5 says:

            Oops sent that accidently

          3. nunya biz says:

            I think that’s true, mollyb5. I see a mean streak in him that I don’t see as much in Madeline. She seems more reactive and insensitive. He seems more manipulative to me.
            What do you mean “sent accidentally”?

  30. Elke says:

    I think Ed is a normal. In a chat with Nathan he said he was bullied and after years he wanted not to be victim anymore. It souned Ilike a threat but to it was defending or standing his grounds. All claim I am wrak but od I have to I willa defend myself but does not act violently. In my opiniom his emphatic and
    narc traits arę in balance

    1. WokeAF says:

      Ed being bullied and wasn’t going to stay quiet or do nothing again in life or wtvr was literally the moment I decided he’s an empath.

      W in the actual F is wronggggggg w me 😝 howwwwwww have I not see this massive projectionnnnn 🤦‍♀️ my whole fuckinggg liiiiiiiife

      1. WokeAF says:

        (Or at least empathetic)

      2. K says:

        Projection is difficult to recognize; I still have trouble with it, also, I never realized that normals/empaths can project to a certain degree. There’s a lot to learn here.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Oh definitely! I mean I look around me in life-and I see people projecting their own views and thoughts and beliefs , thoughts , their opinions their own inner state- it’s like that saying ; you see the world the way you see yourself or something like that .When I’m trying to decipher I guess is when a narcissist project and what would that look like as a post to you when I’m empath or normal it’s projecting something. Like if I’m projecting that I see bullying, because I have a sensitivity to bullying, and then I realize: “oh I’m not seeing bullying, everything is OK.”- That’ a normal type of projection you see in every day life.

          But what is projection for a narc?
          HG- thoughts?

        2. WokeAF says:

          Yes we project but If you notice all the OTHER traits…then it makes sense it’s a narc. If it’s a normal or empath projecting, they should be able to snap out of it like I did,recognize what they are doing and where—- and won’t display all the other traits….word salad, denial, deflection, blame shifting, lying, victimhood, Jeckel and Hyde, AST, PST (ignoring) and all the rest. And if they DO , and then recognize it , there will be CHANGED BEHAVIOUR. . I displayed a few- u helped me see it, i smartened up , and my changed behaviour is a result of that. .I could be a GN , as a might be able to pretend that for a while, but wouldn’t have been caught out on a online forum to begin with. In real life, I have projected before under certain circumstances, but generally keep a clear head. I’ve noticed ppl project constantly unless they’re very self aware (“she shouldn’t have said that to me!” Well , only bc you think everyone thinks like you do. Feel me? . Also all of This literally knocked me over bc I finally understand where I’ve played a victim w/o knowing it. Life changing.

          1. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            Correct. We aren’t always aware of our behaviour but, when someone points it out, and we look at it objectively then we are able to see “The Light”; that’s insight.

  31. Lou says:

    It seems that binge watching the first season was not enough. I need to get the second one now.
    HG, have you seen the second season too?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Of course.

  32. Chihuahuamum says:

    Off topic but i dont usually like beards but i think ed looks better with his beard than he did at the party.

    1. MB says:

      Chihuahuamum, looks like Ed isn’t the only one checking people out! Ha Ha!

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        🤣 he is pretty easy on the eyes

  33. WhoCares says:

    I could see how some of Ed’s behaviours read as ‘mid-ranger-ish’ but I’m leaning more towards normal because he doesn’t exhibit much jealousy regarding Madeline’s involvement in pursuits outside of the family and isn’t at all controlling about whom she sees etc., with regard to friends. I don’t think most mid-rangers could stomach that and they would lay the guilt-trip on thick for that. Although Ed does do a bit of a pity-play in addressing his needs in the relationship – I don’t think it’s over the top or unwarranted.
    He does come across as overly empathetic; so I’m saying ‘normal.’

    1. WhoCares says:

      Does *not come across as overly empathetic

    2. FYC says:

      WC, You make some good points. I started out thinking normal, but his passive aggressive elements sent me over to the MMR conclusion. I would not be surprised to discover I am wrong though. I look forward to your thoughts on season 2 as well.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Thank-you FYC – maybe l’ll have to pay closer attention AND see season 2 before drawing a conclusion.

    3. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi who cares…good pt about how ed isnt jealous or controlling over madelines outside pursuits thatd definitely be a telltale red flag of npd.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Thanks CM, yes he seems a bit resigned to the fact that is just how she is (involved in a lot things) but doesn’t (outwardly) appear overly bothered by it…but I haven’t seen season 2.

    4. WokeAF says:

      My LMR didn’t give a F if I went out or did whatever. He was too busy at home sulking and playing w his toys

      If that counts . 👍🏻

      1. WhoCares says:


        My LMRN supported my arts-related pursuits by acting as “chauffeur” to events and socially engaging my colleagues. (Golden Period.)

        In the middle of the relationship he no longer attended but still ‘supported’ them…or allowed me to go about my business anyway.

        Towards the end if I received individual attention for my endeavors (or the organizations I was associated with received accolades) he would exhibit jealousy and would make derisive comments: “Well, aren’t we the local celebrity…”

        He would ‘promise’ support but then fall through on his promise (it no longer mattered at that point because I had learned not to rely on him and always found my own way to succeed.)

        I’m basing my observations on my narc and the first season of BLL as I haven’t seen the second season – but I understand that Ed reveals more of himself later…?

      2. K says:

        Sulking and playing with his toys. You may find this article helpful.

        1. WokeAF says:

          I’ve read it, that’s what I was referring to! I see it now on Ed.
          My LMR was a sulky type lol!! . (Also I’ve read every article, watched, every video , and read every book HG’s written, several times, over the last couple years , just so you know where I’m at 😊)

          1. WokeAF says:

            But keep posting relevant ones ! It’s always good to refresh when stuck on a point

            (I just said that so you know even tho I’m new to being very active here- I’m not new to HG by far)

          2. K says:

            As long as you don’t mind, I will post anything that may be helpful.

          3. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            Ok, I will keep that in mind. I recently re-read The Revision of History and The Terrible Gaslighting Twenty (to make sure I wasn’t going insane). I find repetition very helpful; it clears up the ET.

          4. WokeAF says:

            K ; I agree I constantly re-read and re-watch the videos. I am frustrated as hell that we haven’t had a new video in so long but I know HG is busy with the shield maiden

          5. WokeAF says:

            And also busy trying to moderate this flurry of comments Lmao

          6. WokeAF says:

            K ; You were not going insane I derailed you but you were actually on the right track I think

          7. K says:

            Thank you WokeAF
            When I was reading the thread, the lyrics to Twilight Zone started to play in my head.

            “Help, I’m steppin’ into the twilight zone
            Place is a madhouse, feels like being cold
            My beacon’s been moved under moon and star
            Where am I to go now that I’ve gone too far”

          8. WokeAF says:

            That just made me think of the bacon/beer can thing.

      3. WokeAF says:

        I noted also: Ed has toys.

  34. Anm says:

    I really enjoy the writing of the show.
    It hits home in many ways

  35. Anm says:

    I’m only on season one still. He sort of reminds me of my son’s father who is a Middle Midranger, but I haven’t seen too much narcissism yet to point it out as a defininant

  36. K says:


    Statements made by Ed to Madeline during the beach scene:
    1. For every person there’s The One. Case in point, you’re my one.
    2. You don’t really seem to adore me. (Where Is The Love? by The Black-eyed Peas)
    3. Look, I may not be the good-looking adventure ride, okay, but there is something to be said for being there, for being truthful, for somebody you can steadfastly count on. (he is the good guy, the martyr; this is the typical mid-ranger Facade and pity play in action)

    Nathan and Ed meet to discuss the planned parenthood issue and
    Nathan makes a back-handed compliment regarding Ed being Mr. Sensitive and today’s standard bearer for the evolved man.

    Ed feels attacked and comes back with: Right, so you are the guy who like’s to fish and hunt and I’m Mr. Girly-Man. (defensive; he rewrite’s what Nathan says)

    Nathan: That’s not what I meant. I thought it’d be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie. That’s why I am bringing it up with you. (first line of defence: denial, Second line of defence: deflect)

    Ed: Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan. Are you threatening me?
    (WTF!? Where’s the threat? Ed is rewriting the script)

    Ed is a MMRN and that is how I am voting.

    1. K says:

      I’m Mr. Girly-Man is a Pity Play.

      1. WokeAF says:

        What I’m finding amazing is suddenly I can see the facts
        Instead of my assumptions

        Like- I can tell the difference.
        I sort of could before- but I was snapped to like BAM
        I literally went through a full like, 12 hours of cognitive dissonance then snapped thru it.
        This is gonna be a crazy ride now

        LIFE , nvmd the show! – which I obv have got to rewatch

        Arggg fml now I’m behind! I’ll have to change half my votes!!

        1. K says:

          Wade through the bullshit and keep looking for the facts. The logic won’t steer you wrong.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Yes. My intuition is usually right too. Like the whole Filipino Victim bit – I PICKED UP on that when it was said – but ultimately got too embroiled in my ET about ostracizing and wasn’t SEEING what I read.
            Paradoxically (as is with all truth), I need to watch my humour doesn’t ostracize inadvertently.

            Logic+Intuition never fails me. I have to watch I don’t project my own good nature on to someone else or onto a situation. This has always been my fuck up .

          2. K says:

            To avoid a shit show, always stick with the facts. Also, people’s feelings are less likely to be hurt.

      2. WokeAF says:

        Or…subdued fury? My LMR did that. Same …vibe. When he said stuff.

        1. WokeAF says:

          I see it NOW as a challenge to his superiority. Fury. Contained fury?

    2. FYC says:

      K, loved your analysis! So thorough and precise.

      1. K says:

        Thank you FYC
        After I read your comment, I thought: FYC made a damn good analysis! It is very clear that you are paying attention at HGU.

        1. FYC says:

          Lol K, Thank you so much. I am learning from the best here and I’m really motivated to learn and be able to apply all of it in real life. I have appreciated your help in the process.

          1. K says:

            My pleasure FYC!
            Keep up the good work. Applying it IRL makes a huge difference because you can see it all unfold, like magic, before your eyes. Sometimes, when I am dealing with a narcissist, I think: Oh shit, I just got gas lighted! Ok…. noted. Let’s move it along now.

          2. FYC says:

            K, It really is starting to come to light. Once I became more aware of the tactics and behaviors they become more visible, and avoidable. Knowing also takes the sting out of wanting to believe they could be any different. They can’t. So it’s OOCGE for a happily ever after!

          3. K says:

            Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.

            Narcissists are ubiquitous and unavoidable so the goal is Zero Impact. Observe only, cease giving energy; it’s truly a wonderful place to be.

          4. FYC says:

            K, Perfectly stated, and that is my goal.

    3. Sophia says:


      I voted normal. Now I want to go back and watch it again to see what I didn’t pick up on. I had an MMRN and he was always a dick.

      1. K says:

        During S1:E1, I thought Ed was an empath but I quickly changed my mind during S1:E2.

        Ed uses a lot of pity plays, he’s provocative, indifferent and, occasionally displays contempt. Nathan acts like a dick so I think he may be a LMRN but I have to look more closely at him.

    4. Lou says:

      Interesting analysis, K. I did not see Ed as a narcissist but rather as an empath married to a MR narcissist. I must admit I did not quite follow everything that was said in that scene between Ed and Nathan but I interpreted Ed’s reaction to Nathan as driven by his jealousy because his wife, Madeleine, seems to triangulate him with Nathan.
      The only instance I picked up Ed was looking at other woman was when he makes a comment to Bonnie C about sweat in women and I interpreted as his libido interfering because he is sex deprived.
      I observed much more narcissistic traits in Madeleine (entitlement, control, anger, explosion) than in Ed, who seems to be a reasonable kind of insecure guy attached to his wife.
      Now, characters often change from one season to the other. I believe it is done to create a surprise sensation in the public. It may very well happen to Ed’s character during season 2, which I have not seen yet. But for me, the Ed in season 1 is not a narcissist.
      It is very interesting to see all the different perspectives.

      1. K says:

        I love the different perspectives. It forces you to think.

        Ed comes across as Mr. Nice Guy, that’s the MMRN facade at work, and he pouts (sulks) and has a “woe-is-I” aura about him. He’s the martyr.

        The scenes between Ed and Nathan spiral out of control quickly and I thought: WTF is going on between these two. I think the interaction was The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence at work. Ed’s jealousy and checking out other women were Red Flags.

        Madeline looks fabulous but she has low control over her hostility, jealousy and fury so she may be a LMRN.

        1. WokeAF says:

          HG- I cant. If Ed is a narc then I give up

          1. WokeAF says:


        2. Lou says:

          K, I started watching season 2 last night (only first episode). So far, I have Madeleine as a MMR and Ed as a standard empath and have no idea what Nathan is. My opinion may change as I gather more information. We’ll see. But I do agree it is interesting to see how people arrive at different results and see different things.

          1. K says:

            This show is chaos and I love it! Good luck!

    5. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi k…i couldnt help but laugh at this conversation between ed and nathan 😄
      Then later nathan says to madeline…look over there at how eds looking at me i think he wants to kill me 🤣

      1. K says:

        I laughed when Ed accused Nathan of threatening him; it just came out of left field.

        Nathan is provocative; he’s always stirring the pot. The Wig scene at Annabella’s party was bad. That was a lesser move.

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi ki….i dont remember the wig scene at annabellas party? Ill have to go back and look.
          It was hilarious watching how jealous nathan was of eds performance and vice versa lol everythings a competition between those two.
          Then the triangulation when nathan stuck his head in the car wondow to let madeline know bonnie was performing at the party and that she was really talented 😄

          1. K says:



            During Annabella’s Disco birthday party Ed is behaving like the Incredible Sulk and Nathan tries to sympathize with him but Ed tells Nathan to shut up, and Nathan responds by pulling Ed’s wig over his eyes and then the two of them get into a physical fight!

            Renata breaks it up and Ed says: He started it! (blame shift)

            Nathan says: I was just joking. (glosses it over; gas lighting)

            Then both Ed and Nathan downplay it by saying: We were just playing (gas lighting).

            No apology, no accountability, no shame, no embarrassment, they display a complete lack of empathy, insight and boundaries. It’s a child’s birthday!!!

            The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence sprang up so fast, it made my head spin!

          2. Chihuahuamum says:

            K….Wow i did not see that scene! I mustve forwarded past it ill have to go back and look thx

          3. K says:

            My pleasure Chihuahuamum
            You are gonna love it. Ed’s got the Incredible Sulk going on and he’s trying to draw negative fuel from Madeline. She walks away and then Ed tries to draw negative fuel from Nathan. Watch how the Twin Lines of Defence presents.

            Keep in mind that Renata has her facade up and running because she is the Hostess so her fury is capped and she is getting well fuelled by her guests at the party.

          4. K says:

            My pleasure Chihuahuamum

            Note how neither of them apologize to Renata for the fight.

          5. WokeAF says:

            “display a complete lack of empathy, insight and boundaries. It’s a child’s birthday!!!”

            Yes and I’d think a MMR or up would have the cognitive empathy to keep that shit tight. 🤔
            I’m swaying toward
            Nate – ML
            Ed – LMR

          6. K says:

            Nathan was a bit feisty and he was a shit stirrer. Ed was mopey and used pity plays frequently so I went with MMRN.

          7. WokeAF says:

            Nathan was a bit feisty and he was a shit stirrer. Ed was mopey and used pity plays frequently so I went with MMRN.

            See now my MMRN is also a shit stirrer but he’s so charming about it one can’t tell. Until he explodes.
            Whereas my LMR was provocative as hell. (Once he got lubed up enough on beer) ppl thought it was the beer , but he was also provocative even when he only had a couple in him (which was breakfast), but he was more sly about it .He would stir the pot incessantly in general however

            This is of course just my experience, and I’m only noting as convo fodder –

          8. K says:

            Beer, the breakfast of champions.

            My MMRN was not a shit stirrer, he wasn’t mopey, he had a fabulous facade and his rage was infrequent. I lucked out as far as narcissists go.

            LMRNs and Lessers don’t have good facades and tend to be more provocative and beer (fuel substitute) is a great blame shift.

            There’s overlap but, the more you read, the better you get with distinguishing the schools.

          9. WokeAF says:

            DOES Ed have a good facade tho? Seems like every time he goes out something goes wrong

          10. K says:

            I think Ed has a good facade because he has that “Woe is I” poor-me-look. He deploys a pity play (control), we feel sorry for him and he gets emotional attention/gestures (fuel). All is well in his world.

          11. WokeAF says:

            If you wanna narcissist extravaganza watch 90 Day Fiancé on TLC. Your head will spin. Really helping me see it in (real life) action.

          12. K says:

            Reality TV and the news are the perfect medium for observing and learning to identify narcissistic behaviour and traits. Keep up the homework.

        2. WokeAF says:

          Was it a lesser move?? Bc I just commented on Nathan’s poll, he gives me the same feel as my babydaddy who i suspect is a ML.

          But he also kinda reminds me of my MMR.

          I think it’s one of the two lol

          1. K says:

            He is on the line, I think, so I voted Lower Middle Midranger Narcissist (LMRN). He is a Mid with a hint of lesser.

          2. WokeAF says:

            Interesting! This is so much fun.

    6. K says:


      Note how the conversation between Nathan and Ed was supposed to be about Abby and the Planned Parenthood issue and how quickly Ed derailed the topic of conversation turning it onto himself.

      4. Topic Shift

      1. nunya biz says:

        I find the interactions between Nathan and Ed pretty funny. In S2E1 I loved Nathan calling Ed snide because he totally is.

  37. FYC says:

    I voted MMRN. I struggled with this one, because Ed seems normal with narcissistic traits, but I think it is his effective facade. These are some of the factors that swayed me towards the MMRN verdict:

    Ed showed insight about MMM’s lingering feelings regarding her divorce with Nathan during their conversation, yet used his insight to annoy MMM with a seemingly passive/aggressive overt friendliness toward Bonnie in the presence of MMM, then denies and deflects when MMM calls him out on his display of ’empathy’ towards Bonnie.

    Ed talks about being bullied and makes a thinly veiled threat to Nathan, but does not carry it out. Instead he toys with Nathan passive/agressively when possible. Both Ed and Nathan seem Ns to me.

    When Ed says he and MMM are over, he does not leave, instead he stays and plays passive/agressivly with her through barbs and silent treatments to the point she asks him to stay or leave, but just do something because she is tired of the indirect actions.

    Ed is quite happy to engage in his performances as Elvis and other characters for attention. I knew a MMRN that like that too.

    Seems to me all of the above is all fuel seeking behavior.

    Lastly, and most telling for me was Ed’s creepy, lecherous staring at women–not just an accidental glance–but prolonged staring. Gross and WTF? What normal does that, much less repeatedly?

    Maybe I am reading too much into these acts, but that is what lead me to the MMRN conclusion.

    1. Twisted Heart says:

      I agree FYC for all the reasons you listed above.
      I know we’re not voting on cadre but he is clearly cerebral.
      And I think Madeline is a geyser.

      1. FYC says:

        Hi TW, This is so challenging. For me, I watched the series last year and am watching this season, so I already had certain impressions, but did not analyze each character. So I’m looking back for specific behavioral clues. Midrange and Normals are hard for me to quickly identify, I really had to think it over, and still don’t know if it’s accurate.

        Everyone has made great observations and we all seem to pick up on different things. I loved the point that K brought up from the therapist comment that Ed’s indifference is a betrayal. I missed that good one.

        1. K says:

          Oh, Ed thought he was so damn innocent! Whiter than white mid-ranger.
          Ha, she got him real good!

          Madeline never really answers the therapist’s question about why she cheated, because Madeline doesn’t know what she is (a narcissist) or that Ed’s fuel is stale.

          1. FYC says:

            K, I thought Ed’s exchange with Nathan at the top of last night’s show was very telling. Mary Louise is utterly disgusting. Would like to hear your thoughts on that detective too.

          2. K says:

            Ha ha ha…that whole incident was VERY telling! The hostility between Ed and Nathan is palpable and Nathan was very aggressive at Annabella’s birthday party.

            Mary Louise is smooth and clearly in control. I absolutely hate her!

            The detective has issues. It is very clear that Perry attacked his wife and people have the right to use force to defend themselves or protect others. Sometimes, I think Law Enforcement wants us to lie down, allow ourselves to be raped and then stabbed to death. God forbid you fight back. You will be prosecuted and jailed.

            Bonnie’s appearance at the Police Station is baffling. What a mess!

          3. nunya biz says:

            I’m going to lose my mind watching this show.

          4. MommyPino says:

            K, you think that Madeline is a narcissist? I have always been puzzled with some of the things that she did. Like how she treated both Ed and the guy that she had an affair with. But how about when she stopped the car and cried after Jane told her that she was raped? I have also thought that her jealousy of Bonnie is so amazingly immature although I understood her anger over Bonnie taking her daughter to Planned Parenthood without her consent. Although also, legally here in California, Bonnie is under no obligation to inform Madeline because minors can go to Planned Parenthood without their parent’s consent or knowledge and Bonnie just gave the daughter a ride, I thought that if she really was an empath she should have at least gave Madeline a courtesy call. If I was Bonnie I would actually refuse her and tell her that it’s something that she should do with her parents. My stepdaughters tried to used me for triangulation like that but I have always been conscientious of their mom and deferred to her or refused to be a part of it. That is another reason why I thought Bonnie is either a narc or a Co-D who couldn’t say No to her stepdaughter. Oh sorry my comment went all over the place. Back to Madeline, what’s your latest guess, is she a narc or an empath?

          5. K says:

            My latest guess: Maddie is either a MMRN or LMRN. Bonnie is still a mystery.

            When Madeline cried re: the rape, that was cognitive empathy and the mid-range facade in action. I have a female MMRN that sometimes cries in front of me. It’s a brilliant manipulation (facade and pity play). Look at me; I am a kind and caring person; be my friend/appliance (and give me fuel).

            If Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride to Planned ParentHood and wanted the trip kept secret from her mother then Bonnie is obligated to honor Abigail’s wishes. Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.

            As an empath, I wouldn’t be concerned with who took my daughter to Planned Parenthood, as long as it was my daughter’s choice to do so. Madeline is abusive so I am not surprised that Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride and forcing a child to go to Planned Parenthood with an abusive parent is child abuse and I would never do that to a child. Traumatizing a child like that is completely unethical and abhorrent. I protected a narcissistic child from her narcissistic mother because the NPD child needed help. The mother was totally irrelevant.

            Abusive parents have no rights. The abused child’s rights matter and Bonnie did the right thing.

          6. WokeAF says:

            I don’t think Madeline stopping the car to cry was cognitive empathy or facade. She was alone.

          7. K says:


            Madeline pulling over in her car and crying alone is perceived by the audience as genuine compassion, sadness and caring for Jane, however, those tears are for herself. Mid-range narcissists cry the most, especially the MMRN, and that is what I think Maddie is.

          8. MommyPino says:

            Hi K, I interpreted the stopping of the car and crying as genuine like WokeAF. But we will see how HG interprets the whole Madeline thing. She is very confusing to me. I think that I have posted some observations where she might be a narc or a SE and I would love a clarification from HG because that will help me with my own problems with why it’s hard for me to understand what a SE really is.

          9. K says:

            I think Madeline is a Dirty Angel MMRN. She has a fantastic facade; she is involved in school events and the theater and she has deployed fury (cold), pity plays and she cries.

          10. WokeAF says:

            I’m seeing Mary Louise more along the dirty angel lines

          11. MB says:

            K, “Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.”

            I agree.

          12. K says:

            Correct, an absolute betrayal of trust.

          13. MommyPino says:

            K and MB, I have a really tough time with the Planned Parenthood thing. I would never want anybody else to take my daughter to Planned Parenthood, especially without my permission. I have a completely different perspective on who is abusive. I think that supporting a child (I assume she is under 18) to auction her virginity off is abusive and much more harmful than a parent who cares and wants to be involved when it comes to their daughter’s reproductive health and choices as a child. This is a Western culture or perspective that I still have a very difficult time accepting. A doctor operating on a child’s bunion needs a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery procedure doesn’t and can be taken, encouraged or coerced by people who doesn’t necessarily love them or care about them. It is something that is very difficult for me personally. I don’t know, does that make me a narc? All that I know is that I hope that nobody tests me on that or I will definitely unleash whatever narcissistic fury I might have.

          14. K says:

            Ha ha ha….you are not a narc, however, there are many abusive parents out there and they have absolutely no say in their child’s sex life or reproductive rights. The control belongs to the child not the abusive parent.

            If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult. Maddie is abusive and that is why Abby is living with her dad and Bonnie. Also, Nathan is Abby’s dad, too. Abby can go to her father if she chooses but she chose the safest person she knew; Bonnie.

            Teenagers have the right to control their own bodies and get birth control and they should be allowed to get abortions without parental consent.

            Also, keep in mind NPD parents do not love their children so it would be abusive and coercive to involve them.

          15. MB says:

            MP and K, this is a prime example of a difference in perspectives. Perspective is driven by so many factors. A lot of moving parts in there to consider. It’s very interesting to observe.

          16. K says:

            Different perspectives make you think and I like that.

          17. Twisted Heart says:

            I love that therapist!

          18. K says:

            Twisted Heart
            She’s very upfront and I like her a lot.

          19. nunya biz says:

            K and MP the thing that sways me the most away from empath is the way she treats her daughter. She just tells her what to do without real tools for autonomous decision making.

          20. K says:

            nunya biz
            Madeline is controlling and provocative. She was adamant that Abby was going to go to college. If Abby doesn’t want to go, then that is her choice. She may even change her mind in the next couple of years.

            But Maddie lives in the now and it’s all about control and fuel.

          21. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz, great point. That would probably sway me more than the Planned Parenthood outrage. I think that her daughter is screaming for attention from her, just like her husband. I would be nuts to find out that my daughter wants to auction her virginity off, I would be disappointed if she doesn’t want to go to college but the college thing is still her choice. I will try to explain my point of view to her and hopefully it will be enough to change her mind. If it’s not, I will have to accept the fact that she has her own life. But the suctioning the virginity off is non negotiable to me. I will most likely find some way to stop it, by hook or by crook, even the possibility of using legal means. It is something that I believe she will regret and as a child it is my job to protect her.

          22. nunya biz says:

            K, coming into season 2 I’m starting to see more MMR, why doesn’t she care about Bonnie? And the college thing in S2E1 is pretty lame on her part. And I’m starting to see Bonnie as more super. If I was her I’d be mad Madeline lied to the cops first too, that made sense to me. Like she took the choice away and being unable to talk to my husband about it for that reason would really piss me off, that’s stuff where I feel like being honest is the only way out, I mostly hate “lies of morality” it’s a trap usually because choices are always removed no matter what route is taken. The anger stuff I most related to so far was when Jane pushed Renata at the school and when Bonnie pushed Perry. I’ll see if I change my mind about MMM again.

            Ha, I have to tell MP that so far Mary Louise has some similarities to my mother in law. God, ha, you should see some of the appearance similarities. Passive aggressive, I thought ML was funny in the realtor office with Madeline with the trickity tricky double down trick.

          23. K says:

            nunya biz
            Madeline dislikes Bonnie, because she is seen as eroding her parental control, and Maddie is jealous of Bonnie’s relationship with both Nathan and Abby; competition. The college situation was nuts. Maddie was like a pit bull.

            It’s very common for narcissists to rewrite the story, even to the police, that’s control. They need to control the story line and everyone’s role in it so they take over like a steamroller but they won’t take accountability for anything. I understand the defensive behaviour on both sides.

            Mary Louise is as cool as a cucumber! Passive aggressive to the nth degree!

          24. WokeAF says:

            I saw that as Mmm being salty about her history was Nathan bc he’s a narc , or just a jerk- and basically abandoned his kid then jumps in to play Super Dad suddenly . The resentment at Bonnie is bc he’s in the golden period w her still, or at least matured enough to be a spouse and father- and Mmm and Abby never got that treatment.
            If my teen suddenly was confiding in her narcissistic fathers younger spouse and getting birth control etc- I’d be very hurt too. Angry even.

          25. K says:

            Put yourself in your teenaged daughter’s shoes and look at form her perspective. The anger and hurt usually goes away after you do that.

            And parents should ask themselves: Why didn’t s(he) trust me or feel comfortable talking to me about sex? As parent’s do we send mixed messages or are we uncomfortable talking about sex to our children.

            There are myriad reasons why children don’t talk to their parents about birth control. It’s not about the parent; it is about the child. Parents are irrelevant.

          26. WokeAF says:

            Don’t be condescending. As if an empath doesn’t put herself in their children’s shoes lmao GTFOH

            Dude the hurt and anger DID go away for MMM , and quite quickly . As a super , her narc traits would be much higher anyhow . She asked for a courtesy call .

            Have you ever co parented w a narc?
            Or a highly narc-y person?
            It’s maddening . ESPECIALLY when they show up outta nowhere after years and want to play Super dad. Super step mom. After you’ve put the years in as the ONLY parent thru ups and downs for theiR ENTIRE LIFE (for Madeline)

            Yes it’s all about the kids of COURSE and MMM comes to that conclusion quickly and does her very best to let her girl go – give her space – go live w Sudden Super Dad and half his age Super Step Mom – is ok about the birth control , does what’s best for the kid.

            She has a human emotional reaction but she DOES reflect on things.

          27. K says:

            Yes, I have co-parented with an ULN and his MMRN wife.

            Children have the right to get birth control WITHOUT their parents knowledge, permission or a courtesy call. Period. And it the parent doesn’t like it, too bad.

          28. WokeAF says:

            Yes, I get that, I agree .

          29. WokeAF says:

            My only point is that a well meaning parent can fuck up , esp in this (MM’s) situation , without them being a narcissist. That’s all

          30. WokeAF says:

            Even tho you and so agree on this

            You CAN see that this is an OPINION. Right?

          31. WokeAF says:

            As empaths, we must remember to keep our narcissistic trait of superiority in check.

            Right-fighters are blinded by this.

            Bc we have knowledge on narcs and such,it’s easy to get a boost from adamantly sharing our knowledge in the name of justice and educating others.

            I do it too – and have to check myself bc it annoys the fuck outta me when others do it to me so – yeah , just sayin

          32. K says:

            Doctor-patient confidentiality applies to minors and teenagers can be seen by their pediatricians, without their parents present, to discuss and receive birth control and this also applies in the case of attorney-client privilege.

            I recognize children as whole objects who have rights, feelings, and needs just like I do and I respect their rights.

            When warranted, my sense of superiority comes to the fore and, to be honest, I thoroughly enjoy it.

          33. MommyPino says:

            K, it is something that I personally find conflicting. My husband can not operate on a child’s bunion without a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery without the parent’s knowledge. What if the abortion ends up with complications? Hopefully they will never encounter a Dr. Gosnell. Abortion is not always a safe procedure.

          34. K says:

            The vast majority of abortions that are performed in the US are safe.

            My girlfriend got pregnant, when we were in high school, and both her parents were abusive LMRNs and she wanted an abortion. She didn’t know what to do, so she hid her pregnancy. By the time she asked me for help, she was five months along. I got her a fake ID, helped her schedule the appointment, pretended I was her mother and called her in sick for school, while another friend drove her to and from the appointments.

            It was a two day procedure that could have been avoided had she had access to birth control or a first trimester abortion.

          35. WokeAF says:

            Yeah totally.

            Out of curiousity, are you a super empath?

          36. K says:

            Standard Empath, Carrier (Cadre). There are 62 narcissists in my family (mostly lessers) and I grew up with roughly half the total and my twin brother is a narcissist. It was a very abusive environment. Mostly, I focused on survival.

          37. cb says:

            Wow, K.
            You’re a hero.

          38. K says:

            Ha ha ha….thank you! It was like living in a loony bin.

          39. WokeAF says:

            Good god
            Amazing you survived
            That’s horrific

            I’m a magnet standard
            So learning what the others here are helps me understand the different cadres

            I’d have pegged you as a saviour, so now I’m confused. But! Onward and upward ! Lol

          40. K says:

            It was horrific and I don’t miss any of them. We can have elements from the other cadres and schools. I agree; it can be very confusing.

            I have made a note of your School and Cadre to help me understand, too. NarcAngel is a Saviour Super Empath if that helps.

          41. NarcAngel says:

            I have been confirmed as a Super Empath by HG. The Saviour part has not been confirmed -that was only my feeling (and not a good one) after reading that article. I must consult further on that.

          42. K says:

            Oops! Noted and thanks for letting me know. Ha ha ha…I don’t want to spread rumors on narcsite.

          43. WokeAF says:

            For example on my point about MMM
            -when my daughter was 17 she cane to me to get her on birth control and I did it immediately. I also gave her a quick refresher talk on std’s, lots of hugs and let her know to come to me for anything else. Of course, she was with a lovely boyfriend who’s she’s still with at age 22 – and still not pregnant – and college educated.
            I had her at 22 with no college education. So I get where MMM is coming from on that front also.
            Now, had she gone to her absent narcissistic fathers new 20 something yr old girlfriend to get birth control because she wanted to auction off her virginity – I MIGHT HAVE sone kinda feelings about that.
            Remember, in the end, MMM just requested a courtesy call on big issues
            And supported Abby going to love with her dad – said she was a mature intelligent girl and bound maths her own decisions it something like that. She also backed off on the college thing.
            She defin was being too pushy on her daughter, but it came from a place of love and protection .not narcissism .

          44. K says:

            You are a fantastic mother. Safe, nonjudgmental, loving, caring, decent and you didn’t try to talk your daughter out of it (not controlling). You supported your daughter and allowed her to have control over her body. I wish all mothers were like you.

            But you are looking at it from your POV. Try looking at it from Abby’s POV.

            Teenagers will instinctively go to whomever they think is safe and Abby clearly thought Bonnie was the safest person. Both Madeline and Nathan are NPDed and neither of them are capable of love and Maddie is abusive and controlling, which is exactly why Abby left her mother’s home.

            Abby has the right to get BC without her mother’s knowledge/permission and Bonnie is obligated to honor Abby’s rights to do.

            Instead of putting herself in Abby’s shoes, Maddie felt a lack of control/wounding and lashed out at Bonnie for fuel and to assert control and superiority. (Bonnie took the heat; Nathan was a coward who conveniently stayed out of it and he never stuck up for Bonnie)

            Abusive parents don’t have rights or get courtesy calls. They are irrelevant and should be prosecuted and sent to prison for child abuse.

          45. WokeAF says:

            Ok . I think we generally agree on parenting but we just seeing differently when it comes to MMM

            Certainly a leaning experience, this homework!

            I look forward to HG’s answers .

          46. K says:

            Ha ha ha….I am looking forward to HG’s answers, too, and, although we disagree about MMM, it’s fun trying to figure everyone out.

          47. nunya biz says:

            I think you are right, K. The police thing might seal my vote.

          48. MommyPino says:

            So Madeline started the lies to the police about Perry’s death? I have not seen that episode. Why did Bonnie allow it if she is a SE though? Why didn’t she correct Madeline right there? This is just me asking as I have not seen it and I’m trying to understand. This is one of the reasons I voted that Bonnie is a Co D because I thought that if honesty is very important to me I would have not have been a part of the false story to the police and then feel guilty about it. I would have told the police what really happened right there. Of course now I realize that that is not what a Co D is because a Co D is someone addicted to a dynamic with a narcissist in a very masochistic way. Lying to the police about what she did is a major boundary violation and I don’t understand why a SE would allow that.

          49. nunya biz says:

            MP, I’m not sure, I can only express my opinion and perceptions on it, but I understand your reaction about those sexual choice things to be an emotional response, out of fear and love. That makes sense to me because we can feel pain about our children getting outside influence that might not be what’s best. But the truth is your children are influenced by you up until that point and so may never need to look outside the home in those areas.
            Or they might.

            But the way I see it is that what scares me all to death is that my job is primarily to teach my kids to make choices without me BEFORE they move out of the house. I think your kids are much younger than mine, so your perspective might be different. I’m feeling a major time crunch on this issue. I have literally 3 more years to teach my son how to make adult decisions on his own. I am terrified if I did it well enough or not. I will still be able to help him after that IF/WHEN HE LETS ME. And if he doesn’t move out of state or to fucking mars for all the say I have. My daughter I have six years. So when I talk to her about sex I talk to her about making sure she has an authentic connection with someone. I point at other kids playing who’s who’s boyfriend/girlfriend or girlfriend/girlfriend (yes they are doing that in sixth grade) and asking her if it looks like fake “practice’ to her. I don’t tell her when to do it, how or who with. I tell her what to observe and to think about how she feels about it. I don’t think the rest is up to me 100% so I mostly explain and pray.

            The law says they can walk into PP and get birth control in most places whether I like it or not provided they have a ride. Why? Because kids having kids. And if she’s old enough to have sex and get pregnant, she’s old enough to utilize the laws regarding abortion, that’s how biology works. I am not allowed to make that choice for her, though I can make a miserable as hell time trying. I don’t want to go there, so I just keep talking. And if you keep talking when they’re twelve, they might actually have some ok ideas in their head when they are 16. But like I said, I feel my primary role is to teach her how to choose, not what to choose.

          50. MommyPino says:

            NB, I have a different parenting style. It’s very important for me to lay the foundation for their values and I want to make it very strong in a way that they would choose to embrace those values as their own. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s considered by some as very narcissistic parenting. There are some things that I want them to hold very sacred to their very essence. There are things that I believe to be infinitely true. I didn’t see the special project as a teenage drama. If it is my kid, things like that would concern me very much. Mostly it would concern me that they would come up with such an idea and think that it is feasible in the slightest. I don’t want other people encroaching on my parenting of my child. I would hate for my kids to go to someone else instead of me for things like that. I don’t believe that anybody else care about them and love them as much as me and my husband. Of course I plan on establishing such a strong relationship with them that they would naturally choose to confide in me for important things like that instead of other people. But I’m also aware that there are things and influences that are outside of our control and doesn’t serve their best interests and I am fearful of that. It is a chance that I can minimize but will never be able to eliminate. Well anyways my kids are just babies, 2 yr old daughter and 5 yr old boy so I still have plenty of time to prepare. Although right now I don’t feel that I should talk about sex with them yet. They are so pure and innocent right now and I love this stage. Right now I’m just modeling respectful and wholesome loving kisses and hugs with them a lot.

          51. MommyPino says:

            Also NunyaBiz, I think that you and I are coming from different perspectives on Planned Parenthood and it is affecting our responses. It is something that I respect. I am personally not a fan of that outfit for a lot of reasons not related to HG’s blog so I will just refrain from writing them. The thought of my minor child having sex is very difficult for me. Also I grew up in a country where parents have much more control over their kids makes me fearful of my new environment and parenting in this culture that I didn’t grow up in. I grew up in a very family oriented culture and parents are very much respected and deferred to by the children. It is one of those things that I don’t see anything wrong with except in cases of narcissistic parenting. It’s something that I am having a hard time shedding off and probably also very unwilling to let go of.

          52. nunya biz says:

            Oh, and MP as far as the show…
            I didn’t think Bonnie supported the auction at all. She just knew that it was a normal teenage drama issue and she wasn’t informed enough to think properly about it. So she stayed calm and didn’t control her, she explained a logical reason why it wouldn’t work without shaming her. I thought it was really good. Honestly I probably just would have puked like Madeline. That was one of the best scenes.

            And btw, regarding the first time sex issue, if my daughter does end up with the wrong kind of boy and he’s mean to her you have to agree to come bail me out of jail, ok.
            : )

          53. nunya biz says:

            I didn’t indicate my political perspectives on planned parenthood at all, only what is legal. I also thought M’s daughter’s project was misguided and would talk to her about it for a year because she is confused. I also don’t want anyone encroaching on my parenting either, I really would lose my mind and I’ve said it many times on the blog. I am extremely selfish in that way and it is ironically one of the reasons I don’t get a divorce even though I refuse sex (for now). And I won’t as long as the decision is mine, not all decisions are mine, which is where the subject gets hairy and what the discussion is about.

            I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong. But the difference in how we hear others speak was actually what I was interested in when I brought it up. It’s been interesting to see everyone perceive each character in completely different ways while watching the same thing.

          54. NarcAngel says:

            Nunya Biz
            It is interesting isn’t it? So many different interpretations while looking at the same thing as you say. It’s no wonder then that we don’t always hear or see things the same with each other here. I think it highlights the differences between the empath schools and cadres.

          55. K says:

            Absolutely correct.

          56. MB says:

            HG, this has been a brilliant exercise in the demonstration of perspective. We talk about it on the blog often, but with the BLL polls, we see it in action.

          57. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz, “I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong.”. Well that’s probably because I wasn’t doing a very good job trying to understand you better. I think I may have been more on the selfish side expressing how I feel or what I believe even though it may not have matched what you wrote. I apologize for that. I made an assumption regarding the Planned Parenthood. But I also wanted to express where I was coming from which I think strongly influenced how I perceived that scene in the movie. I was trying to say that my personal bias regarding that outfit may have made my reaction towards Bonnie stronger and why I related to Madeline more. I do agree that it is interesting how empaths come in all various colors even though we share the main traits. And it is evident in our comments and perspectives.

          58. nunya biz says:

            “If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult.”

            That is the thing I was addressing with my comment, I didn’t see Bonnie support the decision at all, if I recall she was the only one who stopped it. The decision to do the project was made by an adult not even related to her who was raised almost entirely by someone else to make such a misguided decision. She stopped it even though she didn’t have any responsibility to do so.

            I thiiiiink I am voting M as a narcissist now, but I’m still not sure about Ed. And I was putting Nathan as a narcissistic normal, but I’m still on the fence about that one too. Like WokeAF is saying, I’d attributed some of M’s behavior to having been disappointed by Nathan being a narcissist and screwing them over, and that would be very disappointing because I would feel loss for myself and my daughter. Also, I relate to just being misguided on the whole as to the point of everything in life and really my mind’s only gotten better sorted to be less narcissistic in some areas by reading HG, though I think I have strong empathy and always have- I can’t quite figure out how to discern the difference, so my questions are in that area.

          59. nunya biz says:

            Yes, NA, it is wild. It’s kind of what I was looking to uncover because I feel like a lot of life is walking through, navigating and responding to these different perspectives. Sometimes while trying to protect self or someone else. I can’t always sort it.

          60. nunya biz says:

            MP, I like the MM character, and relate to some of her for sure. I really would have wanted to puke my way through that dinner.
            I wish i was Zoe Kravitz in real life. My husband lately likes to joke gaslight me, which i actually sometimes find amusing in between cussing him and he very seriously told me that Bonnie was the character hes most similar too.
            As if he has any groove.

          61. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz, Actually to be honest I skipped a lot of the scenes to be able to finish all of the aired episodes before my trip so I may have missed some of the important scenes. I thought that the daughter was in high school, I may have skipped the part that said she is in college. When I come home I will have to rewatch it, especially go back to all of the Celeste and Perry’s sex scenes that I fast forwarded 😜. I didn’t recall Bonnie stopping the special project, I thought that she seemed indifferent but I do credit her for informing the dad. If it was me I would have done the same thing as I think that it is important for the parents to know but I would never say anything that might give the appearance to the daughter that I see anything positive about it like when Bonnie said at the dinner that it’s for a good cause. Madeline puking was indeed funny! The whole dinner was weird not just because of the special project but the whole thing about it.
            I think that reading different perspectives on the planned Parenthood issue is very helpful to me. Before this I think if my SD would ask me to take her there I would just decline and tell her that it’s something that would be better for her to do with her parents just because if I was in her parent’s shoes I would hope that the same consideration would be done for me even though I know that the child has a legal right to go there. However after reading about the other point of view, I would now ask the child first why she chose to ask me and not her parent and if I find out that there is real abuse I will consider taking her but if it’s just rebellion I would still decline and advise that it is something best done with her parents.
            It’s funny that your husband thinks he’s like Bonnie. I do remember my MRE sister used to relate to the nicest characters in movies even though she was definitely far from the character’s traits. They really have a skewed perception of themselves. Especially if they are Mid-Rangers I think.

          62. nunya biz says:

            I don’t know, I’m on the fence again.
            But K, I can say that I don’t agree with the concept of Maddie’s character going to prison for child abuse. Defo “no” for me.

          63. K says:


            nunya biz
            You don’t have to agree with me at all and, in some ways, I am on the fence, too. It isn’t feasible to remove all children from their abusive homes but how much child abuse do we accept as a society.

            Do we allow emotional violence but punish those who sexually/physically abuse children. It is a conundrum. Also, EV creates NPD children. It’s a mess.

          64. nunya biz says:

            Oh yes, K, well said about emotional violence. I hope you don’t mind me waffling all over your comments, I suppose I am focused on yours because I find them interesting and actually they are the most persuasive to me. I appreciate your patience with me I am like this frequently on some topics. I believe my uncertainty in a few areas is appealing to certain N’s probably : ).
            But some areas I am certain.

            But thank you for your response it helps me understand where you are coming from. I do like when you remark on my differing opinion because it actually helps me think more about it, so please do.

          65. K says:

            My pleasure nunya biz
            And thank you! I don’t think you are waffling; I think you are making an effort to think it through and it’s ok the be conflicted/ambivalent; I go back and forth, too. We are trying to make sense of it all and different perspectives can influence that. Logic is persuasive and it wonR