Big Little Lies : Ed MacKenzie
Ed MacKenzie
Normal ? Standard Empath? Middle Mid Range Narcissist?
What do you think and argue your case in the comments!
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Is the novel Big Little Lies the same as the TV series
I will read it if it is as I didn’t follow the series I’m a bit weird I just prefer a book
Kiki
Series based on book
Ed totally DOES kind of act like a dick!! I was dismissing it .
Of all my narcs he reminds me of my LMR with the dark angry eyes.
His general feel
And that fits the description
Sulky, yes.
I am changing my vote to LMR.
I usually enjoy reading other readers comments and views when time permits. But I’m no longer finding this interesting nor enjoyable.
Ladies please! We’re all in this together. There are bigger, more real fights to have so conserve your energy and preserve your dignity.
HG, I do hope you’re not masturbating about this haha
NA, K, whoever
I will correct myself
I perceived MP as being ganged up on.
I can’t speak for her, when I did speak for her before it was bc I was projecting my own perception onto it.
I can’t give direct quotes bc this thread is too long.
I will try to give you my perception/projection.
Here it is/was);
-lovely debate on morality
-I see morals, rights, etc as thoughts in the head.
-comments all released at once- confusion in the thread
-I project MP is perceiving that she is being told she has no morals if she rats out on the bc situation in BLL
-I debate this in relation to the existence of morals
-MP (I thought) gets righteously offended at a (I thought ) miscommunication on this
-K states MP’s narc traits
-I project/perceive this as a bit of an attack , bc I’m thinking MP is unable to communicate what she means
-various ppl pipe up in Agreement on K’s morality stance
-I perceive/project that MP is feeling ostracized because of this and because she thinks others are agreeing that she has no morals
– I pipe up for MP not to worry about it because K is narcissistic traits of pride or whatever maybe being projected onto her because I want to make her feel better
-all shit breaks loose
– k starts listing my narcissistic traits
-I see that I have a narcissistic traits but now I feel that K has stopped listening to what I’m saying entirely and is calling everything I say a narcissistic trait , and i’m trying to communicate that I’m actually still just engaging in a conversation but now I’m starting to feel a little butt hurt
-more shit breaks loose
– at some point during all of this my emotional thinking takes over And also I do not genuinely understand what k’s morality reality is, and I genuinely do not understand that and Empaths can have narcissistic traits without meaning to
– I really want to find out if K believes that someone who would rat out on the birth control has no morals, and if K actually believes morals are anything but a thing in the head as I understand them to be
-K tells me that I need things spelled out for me and also that I’m an idiot (paraphrasing)because of my quantum theory comment which is actually part of this for me-
– I try to explain my quantum theory comment and let Kane know and everyone else that I understand it was not an appropriate comment for that time and I am trying to bring some humour into it all
– sometime during this period of time I stop engaging with K directly because I perceive or project that I am being shut down
– I also did not realize that if a person doesn’t mean to lie that they are actually lying I understood lying as having the intention to lie which I did not have and I projected mommy Pino did not have
Essentially the layers of cognitive dissonance have been falling off of me for a year and a half and I have been using that 1.5 years to eliminate the narcs in my direct physical life and not been paying much attention to what goes on here to be honest other than the articles .
I’m not a child and I don’t want anyone to sugarcoat anything for me but I also need to be understood that I am really just trying to engage here and learn about everything including myself .
That was a lot I know I hope it makes sense
Can I just give a huge shout out to HG for allowing the comments on this all to go through very quickly so I can sort things out and understand and everyone else too I guess
IGNORE MY GLOSSING OVER I swear to HG I’m trying to recall events in as close to a correct order as I can
I don’t want to be a victim I see it now , in the above comments
I’m starting to see it
And i have several other comments I’ve dropped that HG Hasn’t released yet !! So if they pop up
Check the time stamps
I won’t comment again until I can figure out where we all are
Except to say in AA one of the personal defects that I’m trying to remove (12 steps) is victim mentality
Ok I’m done until we are caught up and Every last comment of mine has been released and someone tells me where the F to comment so that we can stay in order because I’m getting lost
WokeAF
Ha ha ha…good luck. You are doing fine.
Yeah. I got it. I almost combusted first. I stayed up all night for this bc I needed resolution. Bc I’m obv insane.
It was cognitive dissonance and you broke me out of it. I appreciate it. I guess tenacity pays off doesn’t it. On both our parts.
I also now I’m seeing what’s going on.
I’m still a little rattled by the spineless comment, however it was shocking enough for me to really fucking wake the fuck up .
WokeAF
You are not insane; you are trying to make it all jive. It’s very clear that we are both tenacious and that’s not always a bad thing.
We all need a reality slap once in while, myself included. There’s a lot of context missing on the blog but, if we were together IRL, I might have said: stop being so wishy-washy and grow a pair.
I’m glad you were harsh with me, I needed it. And I broke thru to a new level of awareness bc of all this. I’m forever grateful to you. You’re smart as fuck. Feel free to point out anything to me in the future. I can swallow a slice of humble pie any time. I’m devoted to awakening, and that means getting real with myself.
Your mind is quick at identifying the traits and manipulations. Don’t stop. You’re accelerating my learning process exponentially.
Haha grow a pair! That is perfect. I often use balls in my day to day nomenclature. I’m a big fan of saying “eggs” tho bc it covers both genders.
Like “ grow a set of eggs!”
Or “I’ve got the eggs for this challenge” type of thing
Or
“Shave your eggs if you wanna get anywhere near this tonight”
Heh.
Thank you WokeAF!
Ha ha ha….it’s good to know that my harshness has helped you and I am very happy to read that you broke thru to a new level of awareness because of it. It’s very important to get real with yourself and don’t worry, I won’t stop, as long as you don’t mind, and I will continue to accelerate the learning process for you. That’s what this place is all about.
Ha ha ha…sack up and grow a pair is another one I use.
Dammit HG this post is 2 days old ur killing me here
Time stamps everyone! Time stamps!
Attention All: Ed said he is pleased to see that his page has managed to garner so much conversation, and when MMM saw so, (when he showed her), she finally gave him a night to remember. And they both send thanks to all involved on behalf of the cast of Big LIttle Lies. And they ask for all to remember to vote for them if any voting for couples will be part of our HG Tudor Assessment Event, regarding the series: Cheers! Now back to the debating and replies and replies that go to the wrong post and/or the wrong posters and missing replies and misunderstood replies and everything else that is lighting the blue touch paper on here. I tried to jump in but I fell on a slippery accusation and broke my fingernail. Repair Time.
The. BEST. 😂
😂 PSE, to be honest, out of all of the characters in that movie, Ed was the last person that I would have ever thought of having the longest thread.
I don’t even watch this series, and I can say this is the most attention Ed has ever gotten.
Instead of analyzing Ed, I analyzed all 3 of you…
And I kept my mouth SHUT, mainly because I either believe that people benefit most/are capable of handling their own stuff & I should stay out — OR — when I go all in — I go IN. The thread may have gone to 2020, and you all would wonder when *I* turned into such a narcissist! Who needs that?
Glad you sorted it~you’re all empaths, so I’m fond of you all, hot mess or not. Life is messy. We’re empaths. We get passionate.
No offense to Ed, I’m sure your passion way exceeded him!
Caroline-is-fine
Ha ha ha…you chose wisely! Thank you. It would have been so much easier if Abby took an Uber.
😂
Who’s Abby? LOL… but serious, I really don’t know…. ha!
Please stabilize/reaffirm Woke… and hug MP (she’s a hugger, I’m confident).
I suggest you all pretend you ate too much spicy food & had a “several days nightmare.”
Free kisses,
Caroline-is-fine
Haha thank you Caroline is kissy! *hugs* *hugs*
Caroline-is-kissy
Ha ha ha…never mind!
WokeAF and MP are perfectly fine.
Free kisses back!
K,
I really appreciate how you’ve reached back & extended your empathy to MP…and how you have so clearly affirmed/clarified many aspects for her. You’re right – she is a kind soul – and you are as well.
Who knows, I may actually check out this series sometime, lol!
Caroline x
Thank you Caroline-is-fine!
MP is a kind person and all this drama isn’t good for her or anyone else on the blog. The series is great and I think you will love it.
Thanks, Babe…I really may check it out. You guys were like free advertising for the series, ha. 😉
K,
“Thank you. It would have been so much easier if Abby took an Uber.”
Pahahaha!
Truth.
My pleasure WhoCares!
Ha ha ha…I know, right.
K,
I’m just glad to read that it’s mostly over. Because I like reading comments by all three of you – just not about that anymore.
WhoCares
Ha ha ha…you and me both! As far as I am concerned, it’s a Done Deal.
Caroline;
I am very sure HG is finding everyone pointing fingers at each other incredibly rich.
“you’re a narc!”
“No you are!”
“No she’s an empath!”
“Well, HG says IM an empath!”
“You’re all empaths!”
“I know what you are!”
“I know what YOU are!”
Hilarious. And inevitable .
Woah…. I am totally new to this thread, I bingewatched the first series last night, it had me hooked right away and of course I also wanted to get my votes in before the resolution is posted. So I open the comments on the series and am somewhat blown away. there is so much to learn… Not only from trying to figure out the fictional characters but also from the spectrum of analyses, the kinds of arguments and reasons given for certain views. But then also from what happens when people who have been hurt immerse themselves too much in learning how to figure other people out.
This particular thread on Ed here leaves me almost speechless (almost). Reading it made me very uncomfortable. I couldn‘t believe my eyes to see in what hostile tones (hostile, yes, that‘s how it came over to me) established posters on this blog dissect other established posters using the narc-identification tools provided on this blog. It does happen sometimes here that there is tension but this here went on for days…. Perhaps there is a time to remember that we’re not fictional but virtual characters here, there is only so much of one‘s personality one can display online and in writing. And if there is such a spectrum of views on the fictional characters perhaps it is good to remember that there is a lot more to think about when dealing with real people that we are.
I am speaking of myself now when I say that there can be too much immersion in ‚narcology‘. Everyone reading this will have his or her own idea whether they feel they are obsessed and it gets too much for themselves sometimes – but I do think we ought to think about it collectively. There was an interesting contribution by a psychologist on the narcissism awareness day, i have forgotten her name, who said that being obsessed with reading anything one can about narcissism is not only a sign of having experienced some form of trauma, but that the immersion in info on narcissism post disengagement can also be detrimental in the healing process.
I have observed myself screening each and every person for narcissism. It may be necessary to so but it can get obsessive and obsessions are never healthy. This blog is the best place in my eyes to come to when obsessed, because it provides true insight, but one can get obsessed also with true insight. The question is: how much of narc info is good and constructive and when does it get destructive in its own right.
NA, if you‘re reading this, I left you a comment in the Full Horror Moment Thread, would love to hear your answer. (I am still around ,just trying to manage my blog obsession and therefore sometimes see messages for me only late).
Hi LC
I lost track of where we were so hoped you’d pop up again. I just checked the Full Horror Moment thread and it’s from 2017 and I didn’t see you there. Could it have been another poll?
Hi NA, no, it’s recent, there’s a poll from July 1st. Or around then. Sometimes you have to use a search string with inverted commas or the link doesn’t come up in the search, it’s weird…
“This particular thread on Ed here leaves me almost speechless (almost)”
I’m laughing at this. Thanks
“On Ed here”
😆
LC I just reread your comment. I appreciated it.
Blog obsession? You mean you follow more than one? LOL! This was the first time I got immersed in a blog thread and I gotta say- totally unbalanced me!
I have been immersed in a twitter thread once- took me away for days and I forgot to hydrate . I don’t recommend it! 😆
Hi WokeAF, no I follow just this blog without having subscribed to it. I am here almost every day, reread articles, search through old comments etc. I can read here for hours on end if I’m not careful. And engaging with people is great but one thing leads to another and if you’re agitated by certain answers then there’s nothing else in your head but these issues here (that’s how I feel about myself, I don’t mean you personally, I mean you in a generic kind of plural) …I know though that some people even dream of narcsite. I have read it here and it has happened to me too once, even though I don’t post that much (compared to some people).
But WokeAF, I have noticed that you are apologising a hell of a lot. No need. You’re fine. I don’t think you needed to be told that you’re thinking was off or something. I got the gist of your reasoning. I guess you must feel like a sponge at the moment if it feels like you’re having one break through moment after the other. But look at it with a bit of distance, insight takes time to settle. Heart usually is slower than head. And this is not least because heart evaluates – and sometimes rightly dismisses again – what head thinks is such a break through as well. I am with NA here and would let it rest for a few days as well though. A lot of the things you three have debated aren’t things that are set in stone, there are more views still and you can change your mind. I am saying that mostly because the debate comes over as a who is right contest (you all seemed to want a winner ) – and that’s I think what propelled this here a bit – all under the guise of wanting to learn more . Anyway. I hope we’ll find out if Ed deserves such a long thread soon! I think he’s just a boring normal 🙂
LC
You think Ed is a NORMAL??!!
Boy howdy i’m not even going to entertain that perception right now ha ha
Yeah I’m a sponge. I’m a sponge 24/7
I see everything from about 1 million different points of view constantly
Usually this is very well received in my daily life as people often come and talk to me and I can immediately not only sense what they are feeling, see what they are saying , but then scan instantly and be able to relate to it with something for my own experience
Sometimes it’s detrimental as when I am in an AA meeting , and everyone gets simultaneously upset about something said by someone, even if no one has said anything , I can physically feel the energy in the room suddenly get extremely heavy and unpleasant . Sometimes it knocks me right over
Luckily my home group knows about this because I’ve explained it and if I suddenly get up and walk out of the room they all know why and not take it personally ha ha
I don’t actually engage in the blog very much until recently and perhaps that’s for the best
Considering for the first time ever I did actually dream of Narcsite last night
Mommypino,
I have not been able to follow along in this entire conversation, but I did catch this:
“*I have reread my comment and my auto fill falsely wrote WhoCares when I meant WokeAF”
Understood.
K ;
Fair enough
I’m sorry I did forget that you mentioned your treat of superiority . I missed the one about pride somehow .
Unless it was you were proud of your superiority ha ha
I do understand where you’re coming from. I would like some examples of in the earlier conversation when I was playing the victim because I was not aware I was doing that .
And there is always always always room for communication. There has to be. I mean we’re doing it right now 😆
I really did feel like you were shutting me down. I’d actually be trying to say something and you were just list narcissistic traits. And I saw mommypino actually trying to say something and you just listing narcissistic traits.
I didn’t point out MPs traits because she pointed them out herself in a roundabout way.
I promise you I am not biased.
I perceived that mommypino ignored your comments to protect herself from getting into emotional thinking and arguing with you. I was also ignoring you briefly because I had determined that you were only going to shut me down if I said something to you , and that you were misunderstanding me completely and so there was no point in even talking to you
I had an exchange with HG earlier that helped me clarify what was going on a little bit better which is why I opened up the discussion with you again directly . You can find this discussion on the word salad article .
K
“ you can find this discussion on the word salad article “
No sorry it’s in this thread. Somewhere
Thank you WokeAF
To help you understand what’s going on a little, my behavior is context driven.
I am not shutting anyone down; I am observing the behaviour and pointing it out, that’s all.
Ignoring questions is deflection (silent treatment/stonewalling). That is a narcissistic trait BTW.
K, I started ignoring you once you out and out called me a Liar and Manipulator. Your perception tells you that I was giving you silent treatment, my perception is I am on a trip to see my relatives and I don’t have the time to or choose to have time to defend myself to someone who will not believe me because she has already acalles me a Liar and a manipulator. It isn’t fair when you copy and paste phrases and not the whole thing and the time stamps and your comments where those phrases were responding to because you are taking those phrases out of context. I have wasted so much time writing responses like I am doing now only for you to just write Deflection, What a senseless comment, etc. Why would I then keep doing that? I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat. You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you over everything else with my time in spite of you already telling me that I am a Liar and a Manipulator which therefore gives me the assumption that you will not believe or hear what I will say anyway. And this is not me playing or perceiving myself as a victim, I am telling you facts right now, I’m on a trip and I just don’t have a time. You tell everybody (WokeAF and whoever maybe reading this) that I am doing silent treatment.
When you wrote that first response where identified what you perceived as manipulations by me, I HAVE RESPONDED and I was not inflammatory in my response because WokeAF already understood me so I was already happy when I responded to you and went on with visiting my relatives instead of staying at my aunt’s house all day to discuss more back and forth with you because she’s the only one who has WiFi. I will post another comment copying and pasting your first comment identifying my narcissistic manipulations according to you and then copy paste my whole RESPONSE after that which is where I was just trying to agree to disagree and didn’t even fight you on those narc manipulations even though at that time I didn’t think that it was nice of you. I just chuckled to myself and thought, it’s just K and didn’t make a big deal out of it and wrote you a response that I thought was diplomatic and I thought that it was the end of it. Then only for me to check on the internet I think two days later (I’m not exactly sure how long, geez I feel like I’m in a fucking courtroom), only to find out that you and WokeAF have already been irate with each other and of course my compassion went to Hera because she was trying to stand up for me even though in reality she didn’t need to because I wasn’t upset anymore. I will copy paste these discussions. Also the problem is I am only using my phone where the screen is so small and everything can be hard to find and is confusing (this is not playing the victim card by the way, I am stating a fact where I am letting you know of a hardship that I have so basically indirectly asking to have some patience with me.). K, when someone doesn’t respond, it’s NOT AUTOMATICALLY SILENT TREATMENT. My perception of silent treatment is someone is not talking to you to make you feel bad. I didn’t do that! First I was gone because I was visiting house to house and WiFi is scarce here. Second I stopped responding because I thought that you will not believe me anyway. So when you say “Ignoring question is deflection and silent treatment, implying that that is what I did to you, it is lying. You are telling everyone that I did silent treatment on you when in truth is I didn’t.
This was your first comment identifying what you perceived as manipulations:
K on July 20, 2019 at 17:26
MommyPino
It’s just a clash of personalities and it was a great demonstration of the narcissistic trait of pride coming to the fore. You are imposing your morality (and culture) on Bonnie and I am defending Bonnie’s POV, that’s all.
1. Maybe I’ll just have to move to Alabama where it requires one parent’s permission for abortion (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement).
2. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that, (you are rewriting the script; Bonnie had a moral obligation to respect Abby’s right to privacy).
3.In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales (where did I write that the people from the Philippines are assholes and tattletales?)
4. good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, entitlement; birth control isn’t harmful and Abby is entitled to use it).
5. Forcing a child to go to PP with a parent is tantamount to child abuse.
6. But when I’m called a name I do respond. I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly. (you rewrote my comment to WokeAF and then you unfairly judged those that you felt supported me).
This was my response before I left the internet for one or two days. This was not inflammatory even though I felt that yours were. I tried to agree to disagree. I didn’t ignore you, I responded but what I ignored were the part that I could have allowed myself to be upset about which is you shaming me by dissecting what I wrote and spinning it to something that I didn’t mean or taking it out of context. After this response to you I was gone because I was visiting, not because I was giving you ST. I had no idea that you were already having a back and forth with WokeAF while I was gone.
MommyPino on July 21, 2019 at 02:48
K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. I was saying that when you said that when somebody tells you a secret, you’re not going to turn around like an asshole and tell on them and possibly endangering them because you’re not a tattletale. I can’t remember the exact words but something like that. I was saying, that here in this country where I’m currently staying, that behavior of a friend who had good intentions is not frowned upon. I was pointing out how morals can be shaped by cultural upbringing. One of my friends from 2nd yr h.s. decided to run away with her boyfriend and she was 16. She was not abused at all, her family is loving but she was crazy about this guy who was a bad influence. My other friend knew where she was staying and tipped our friend’s mom where she was and her parents recovered her. They had a fight for a few years but their friendship recovered and she was thankful to our other friend whom she think saved her from being with that guy who was a loser. I probably would have done the same if I knew what was going on but at that time I was already in Manila and those friends were the ones I left in the province. I just have a very few permanent or fixed standard of behavior. I cannot say that divulging a secret is something that I will never do because there might be circumstances when it is needed. But I can say that I will never have sex or intimate relationships with the husbands or boyfriends or even ex boyfriends of my friends and relatives. It is something that in my personal feeling is almost like incest. I cannot say that I will never kill a human being but I can say that I will never murder an innocent person who is not threatening my life. I think that you are just relating to Bonnie and I’m relating to Madeline in that circumstance and so we don’t agree. I am very narcissistic with the way I raise my kids because I’m very involved and interested in them but I don’t shame them or abuse them. I do try to shape the way they see things though, I pick the books that I read to them, I pick the shows that they watch and I take them to church most Sundays if we didn’t oversleep. I want to be able to have control over the way they are growing up up to their 18th age but I try to keep them authentic with their own innate temperaments and interests. My son loves trains so I don’t force him to like dinosaurs instead, I’m actually very happy that at age five he already knows and decided for himself what he loves. He told me that he wanted to be president someday, it got me really excited and asked him to confirm, “president of the United States?” He said no in an irritated way. He said, “president of a train museum!” It made me happier. Because he’s already aiming for what genuinely makes him happy and not to impress me or anyone. But I do admit that I have narcissistic traits but I think we all do. I think that it’s part of being human.
Loading…
Then I came back and saw that you and WokeAF were already irate with each other and saw that you issued more inflammatory comments against me and even her. It made me upset and I sympathized without WokeAF and wrote this:
MommyPino on July 24, 2019 at 10:28
Hi WokeAF, K and NunyaBiz,
So sorry I wasn’t able to check in here and catch up on the discussions. I have been visiting different towns in my mom’s province to visit and catch up with relatives and cousins and a lot of them don’t have wifi. I will have to read because it seems like the thread has been long since the last time I posted. Hope all is well and NunyaBiz take care and enjoy your self care time away. 💕. I scanned some of the new comments but I need to read them more thoroughly first to really understand the discussion. But WokeAF, no need to worry about me, I didn’t take it personally and I am just thankful that you understood where I was coming from even though we may have different perspectives. In the last post that I was posted I was happy after reading your comments so when I read K’s, it didn’t get me riled up because I felt understood by you and just one person is enough so it made me more understanding of where K was coming from also when she posted pointing out what she interpreted as my narcissistic behavior. I didn’t fully agree with everything she wrote (I do recognize she was right to an extent but not completely) but I didn’t feel like it mattered anyway because it was just still a difference in opinion and I was more glad and happy that you related and understood my perspective. 💕
The. I have read those back and forth more slowly and thoroughly and have responded at first, but only to receive more vitriol and misrepresentation of what I said so I stopped responding.
This will be the last post from me for today. It’s not silent treatment, I am going to Manila and be in a four hour trip. I will also pack. God I feel like I’m living with my matrinarc again. Fuck!!!!
MP,
Sometimes the hardest things in life involve knowing how it is you felt/what you meant/your own heart & enduring that, without knowing for sure if you were heard, understood or validated.
It’s then that you have to dig a little deeper and be okay with yourself… because YOU know, and that is what matters, is it not? You are with yourself 24/7, so it’s what counts, yes? Maybe a bit was learned through this… and maybe you can also grow stronger as well.
Hug (and I’m not a big hugger),
Caroline-is-fine
I just want to apologize right now for my contribution to this shitstorm.
I added fuel to the fire. So to speak
That’s a big my’bad over here
Haha thank you Caroline is fine. I’m not a big hugger either but today I’ll take all the hugs I can get. Even from K. 💕
MommyPino
You deserve both love and hugs. So sending you love and big hugs.
You know I’ve noticed in my life that things always seem to blow up when I arrive.
Like a truth bomb goes off. Does this happen to you guys too?
Or is this …..a regular thing around here?
WokeAF, I don’t think that it was you. I overreacted over what I perceived to be an attack against me and something about what I said or the way that I did it caused a flooding of triggers. That is my guess about it. It was just an unfortunate massive misunderstanding I think.
MP very well composed !
Don’t fret Mommypino
It’s a GOOD thing.
And I like the way you tied that up!
WokeAF
Thankfully, this is not a regular thing here. Truth bombs and drama aren’t my thing, usually.
K
Shit.
I thought maybe this was an empath thing!!
Damn.
Truth bombs are my thing- drama not so much usually! Although sometimes drama happens attached to the truth bomb lol
Which isn’t so strange, I suppose.
WokeAF
Ha ha ha…the truth is great; I just try to be matter of fact about it.
Oh! K ! K? Where’s K? Is she in the dungeon? Get her up here, MP wants a hug .
Aww! It’s like a happy ending in a movie!
-Totally surreal.
Mommypino,
I can’t make sense of most of the back and forth here. But I do know a couple of things for certain…
Not one of you three is a narcissist.
And this:
” I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat. You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you over everything else…”
MP, no one but you is guiding your hands and fingers to type on your phone. Maybe you feel like you’re living with your matrinarc because your empathic truthseeker trait is engaged in making sure the truth (more specifically your truth behind your actions) is made clear in hopes of clearing the confusion and your narcissistic trait of pride won’t let you drop it until the absolute truth is given voice. It is these traits that can that give the narcissist power over us and keep us engaging again and again.
You said yourself that you should be visiting with your family instead (your cousin’s specifically) and you are a very family oriented person. You are making the choice to prioritize this thread over that activity, no one else.
I do you hope you manage to have a good visit with family❤️
Mommypino,
I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here. I don’t watch the show nor have I read all of the comments.
What I do know is that you are NOT a narcissist. You, like all of us, have narcissistic tendencies but you are not a narcissist.
What I do know is that you just left your home with your husband to watch your mom die. You were there when your mom died. There is so much to say for the raw emotion that grief brings out. I would have been shocked if you could have compartmentalized the raw emotion and then switch to pure logic when you were able to log on. To watch someone you love die, narcissist or not, and then to see as many family and friends from the past reliving a lot of your past. We do and say things in grief that is not always characteristic of ourselves. That is why many experts advise against making big decisions in the first year after a death of a loved one.
I am sending you a hug, with Caroline’s, for your loss and for all of the emotions you are trying to process at the same time.
Thank you Getting There. Thank you for being kind and also to Caroline. I just don’t understand what is going on here. I’m just so confused. I went here for distraction. But now I’m not sure what is going on. And I don’t know what to say anymore because I might inadvertently play the victim card or whatever. I’m really not playing the victim card. I really didn’t manipulate or gaslight. I may have been triggered and had the wrong perception and overreacted. I don’t hate anybody. I’m hurt about the names hurled at me: Queen of Victimhood, Lies and Manipulations; Liar and Manipulative. It’s like this blog is an alternative world where I am a different person than who I am in real life where my husband keeps on telling me that I’m a good person and my kids love me so much and my relatives think that I’m a good person. I feel like I have been embarrassing myself here so much and I don’t understand what is going on. Some of the contexts of the jokes are so confusing to me and I’m trying to understand if I am being made fun off because I have been acting so foolishly here. All that I know is that I am so amazingly confused. Do I really deserve all of those names, I don’t think that I do. But I need to understand what false moves I did to be called those names. I just wish that people will explain to me. But I really didn’t manipulate anybody or lied, I had a wrong perception which was probably driven by my own triggers as well and acted foolishly for lashing out. I know that I have also issued inflammatory responses because of the inflammatory comments made to me as well. I want to make it clear that I don’t see myself as a victim but I desperately need clarity and someone to explain to me my false moves without calling me names. I’m not a liar and a manipulator. I am probably too transparent for my own good actually. I am just so confused.
Getting There and Caroline, I just want to say thank you again. Thank you so much. I’m sending love to both of you.
Aw, you’re very welcome, MP…I just saw you have suffered a loss. I am so sorry! 🙁 Take care of yourself~grieving takes a lot of energy, in itself. Do what makes you feel most peaceful & comforted, and talk kind to yourself, ok?
~Caroline x
Thank you. ❤️❤️❤️
MommyPino
To be very clear, I didn’t think or feel that you were ignoring me at all.
1. You wrote: In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
2. I wrote: (where did I write that the people from the Philippines are assholes and tattletales?)
3. You wrote: K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way.
In my world that is gas lighting.
K thank you for the response. I will do my best to explain this, I have tried but I feel that nothing that I will say will be believed by you since you already stated that I’m a liar and manipulative. It is frustrating.
Those phrases that you lifted out, you took them out of context. I was not gaslighting. I was stating my original thought when I wrote it. Bear in mind that I didn’t grow up speaking English. I don’t express myself naturally in English. I am fluent but in my brain I have to translate and compose my sentences and the structures sometimes fail at representing what I really want to convey. And it looks like this is an example. So when I said that “it must be the structure of my sentence,” and your response is that the phrase is ludicrous or didn’t make sense, it is frustrating for me because I was doing my best to give you clarity and not to be manipulative. That’s probably my messages also end up being long-winded because I really make a lot of effort. Being manipulative was not even on my mind and that is what I keep getting accused of and you say that it is a fact.
I will explain this once again and hopefully I do a better job.
When I said that:
In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales are culturally considered as good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful.
That was the whole sentence. I didn’t say that you called all Filipinos assholes and tattletales. You took it wrongly just like I took your tattletale asshole comment personally. What I tried to explain before was that my original thought when I wrote this was not what you thought so it is definitely Not Gaslighting. I’m not an expert at what gaslighting is but I think that I would have done gaslighting here if my original message was what you said I meant and then I denied it. But I was telling the truth when I said that I didn’t say that you called Filipinos assholes and tattletales, I was telling the truth, I really didn’t say it, you misunderstood it and I was thinking that maybe I structured the sentence poorly that is why you misunderstood it.
To explain more what I originally meant is that in the country of the Philippines, because their culture is different and parents almost have complete control of their kids until 18yrs old, and family is so tight knit and kids are raised to be obedient, respectful and subservient to their elders, when a friend tattles to the parents about something harmful or wrong like taking drugs or cutting classes etc., that their child is about to do, that friend whom in the western culture would be considered a tattletale asshole is actually considered a good and protective friend in the Philippines and not a yes friend. And culturally here, after that friend tattles on them, they get forgiven because the mentality here is that the one that got tattled was the one who was in the wrong in the first place. So I most certainly did not gaslight if that is the gaslighting that you were talking about. And the reason that I brought it up was not to deflect but to explain where my thought process was coming from when I just said without any filters that if I was Bonnie I would have informed the mom. It was not coming from an attitude of hubris like you thought, it was coming from an attitude of deference to the parents and protection of a child that is given less autonomy in the Philippines. And that was all that I was trying to say. I was trying to clarify, not cause more confusion.
And thank you for saying that you don’t think that I’m a lightweight. I don’t think so either. But a commenter can choose to stay here on Narcsite or leave and it has nothing to do with them being strong or a lightweight. People just have to decide what they really want to do.
And thank you for the hugs. ❤️
You are welcome MommyPino
Thank you for the explanation and I am very sorry about the misunderstanding. You are not a lightweight and you are correct, if an individual leaves, that doesn’t mean they are a lightweight. Please, stick to your beliefs and values, those are important to you.
Spend time with your family and enjoy yourself and your time with them. You are a valuable person here on the blog and part of the group.
Hugs and love to you and, please, take care of yourself. Losing a loved one is very difficult and you need all the support you can get.
Dear Reader,
After reading MP’s false contrition, blame shift, pity play, projection, gas lighting, victim card “explanation”, I realized something was seriously wrong with her; it’s very clear that she has no insight or awareness, so I responded with this comment below and, sometimes, we have to read between the lines on the blog. My translation is below.
K says:
July 28, 2019 at 15:53
You are welcome MommyPino
Thank you for the explanation and I am very sorry about the misunderstanding. You are not a lightweight and you are correct, if an individual leaves, that doesn’t mean they are a lightweight. Please, stick to your beliefs and values, those are important to you.
Spend time with your family and enjoy yourself and your time with them. You are a valuable person here on the blog and part of the group.
Hugs and love to you and, please, take care of yourself. Losing a loved one is very difficult and you need all the support you can get.
Translation:
You are not a lightweight at all, however, I strongly suspect that you are a Mid-Range Narcissist and your conduct on this thread, as well as, the BLL thread supports this. That was the misunderstanding I was referring to and I’m sorry that I didn’t catch on to your true nature sooner.
https://narcsite.com/2019/07/27/big-little-lies-the-results/comment-page-1/#comment-286835
Apologies are fuel BTW.
Getting There.
My mom died 3 years ago.
I didn’t give a SHIT about my reputation on online forums when it happened.
WokeAF, just stop talking about me. I will not interact with you. Do not interact with me. Do not talk about me. You do not know me. Do not pretend like you do. I do not give a shit about what you think about me. You are not me. People process things differently. You have no idea. I don’t care if I’m a narcissist or not. Either way it will never change. So don’t talk about me anymore.
I didn’t talk about you.
I pointed out that when MY mom died, the last thing on my mind was worrying about what ppl thought about me (in real life, nvmd a forum)
Although now that you’ve claimed it —- I don’t actually know ANY OTHER person – who are SHELL SHOCKED by the DEATH of a loved one – that would take hours away from their grieving family – where they could get actual real support – to defend their reputation on a narc forum.
I wouldn’t even do that if my dog died .
I was stating my experience. You don’t have to like it, or respond to me.
Do you know lots of people who are bereaved who’ve taken a sabbatical from this blog whilst they grieve and by so doing leave matters of personal reputation hanging in the air?
HG. I do not.
Your honesty is noted.
HG I am only here to learn .
Hey, Sailor, er, Pilot… I’ve never been more attracted to you than I am at this very moment, reading this comment.
Lol
Holy moly, this thread.
(Gone all day – my inbox full on this thread… I scan & think: “Okay, it’s over”…”No, guess not”… Yes… No… Yes… No…WTH?…No…Yes?)
I agree with NA’s last post! At least, the last one I saw, lol
MP
My second comment, my reply to you, was an attack and I apologize.
I considered it and it was incredibly insensitive .
Additionally , I understand if you do not accept my apology .
I need to get my shit under control here .
I’m sorry to hear of the loss of your mom, WokeAF!
G.T
“I’m sorry to hear of the loss of your mom, WokeAF!”
Thank u, all is well.
WokeAF, I am sorry for the second message to your one. I have been thinking about the second part of your comment.
Caroline and I recently talked about grief on another article which I can’t remember now. It is so different for all of us.
After my grandma died, I cried and then drove to work. I loved her but work was my outlet. I can’t speak to your grief or mommypino’s or anything else’s grief. All I can say is that I recognize that this blog is special. It is an online blog, yes, and many of us can be on the streets and not know we just bumped into each other. But this blog has had people open up on pain and vulnerabilities that family and friends may not know. It makes this blog a family of sorts. And, yes, people like K and NA do become mentors or mom figures to some. What they think or say does matter internally, especially when dealing with multiple emotions as when grief is occurring. I’m thankful for this blog; the multiple personalities; and like you said to mommypino in that we learn from each other. I have grown from this blog and learned from many as well. Maybe this is what all online blogs are like. I don’t know as I only comment on famous pages on Instagram and very careful in those comments.
Hey! The time stamps thing is mine. Lol
WokeAF, I’m sorry I’m not understanding your comments. 😬. I was writing it to K. I did read your older comments about the time stamps. Did I do something offensive to you? I was not punking anyone. I didn’t want to go back here again but it’s so hard to ignore the emails that I get where you are all discussing me as if I have now replaced Ed and then now I felt that I need to prove that I didn’t do a Silent Treatment. I was not accusing you of anything. I feel that no matter what I say or if I don’t say anything I am accused of something. And even just saying this I will probably accused of playing the victim card. This is so confusing and I feel so demonized and even objectified because now I am the subject of the analysis with people talking about my supposed to be lies or manipulations. It’s so frustrating. Just to be clear I have nothing against you WokeAF and I don’t hate K. I have never made it personal. But this is incredibly frustrating for me. I don’t want to make you feel bad. I guess I just suck at getting my thoughts across. And this is not gaslighting you I swear. I feel that no matter what I write I’m either playing the victim card or deflecting or gaslighting.
Oh and before I get accused of lying. I did say earlier that I might not have internet because I’m traveling but the bus that I’m on has WiFi that’s why I’m able to reply.
Naturally!
The day the last of the cognitive dissonance slips away and I SNAP into Awareness of YET ANOTHER level of awareness…
….And the phrase I will always associate with it is;
“….and the time stamps..” 🤣
Life is utterly IRONIC.
(Bc time is an illusion but I’ll just lv that)
WokeAF
Yup time is nothing more then an illusion and man made construct we all accept and live by. 😉
Twi;
“Yup time is nothing more then an illusion and man made construct we all accept and live by. 😉”
Yeah baby like everything else ! U get me 😉 💗
“it’s so hard to ignore the emails that I get where you are all discussing me as if I have now replaced Ed “
Lol 😂 MP
I’m so sorry. You haven’t replaced Ed. There’s been a flurry of activity and please know I’m sending you best wishes
And also please reply if you can because I’m genuinely worried that I’ve upset you badly in your grief, i’m actually quite concerned and I’d like to just know you’re OK
Inflammatory’s mine!
should I feel bad? I feel kinda bad.
WokeAF, you shouldn’t feel bad. I’m the one who started this when I overreacted. You on the other hand felt bad for me and went to help me. You were doing the right thing and following your values. You had courage to stand up for what you perceived needed help. There was nothing that you did wrong. I feel bad because I dragged you into this. It was not by manipulation by me but because I perceived something as an attack against me and a clique at work and so I reacted in a defensive way. I don’t believe that I am a narcissist regardless of what people here now think. I didn’t manipulate, lie and gaslight. But I am very sorry to K for overreacting and I have apologized maybe one or two times already. I will now ignore whatever provocations I see. I know who I am, the readers don’t. I’m far from being a lightweight, fuck, nobody here has any clue what kinds of stuff I have survived at. I don’t need to prove myself to anyone. So please don’t feel bad WokeAF and I’m sorry if my earlier post sounded like i was blaming you because I wasn’t.
MommyPino
I just want to clarify a few things to help you replace your ET with LT.
1. There is no clique on narcsite that I am aware of.
2. No one is attacking you.
3. I don’t think you are a narcissist.
4. You are still here so you are not a lightweight. A light weight would have left.
No MP I didn’t think you were blaming me.
I felt a tiny tingle of guilt at something I said . That’s all.
Gone as fast as it came up
Very silly .
I’m Woke As Fuck
But I’m also funny as fuck
Well, at least I think so.
Humour shall triumph if I’m around !! I promise.
HOLY FUCK!
That was a LOT
IS THIS AN EXAM? Are you guys punking me?
WokeAF
I aim for brevity.
MP- re: your first comment – are you having a stroke?
Ok that’s it for me tonight. 😆 thanks for coming out I’ll be here all week! 💤
*personal fave* 😆 night all
WokeAF, what are you trying to say?
FUCK!!
The comment below was a total spur of the moment fuck up and I emailed you HG to ask you not to post it but said I would deal with the fallout if you did .
MP ;I apologize for this comment it is inflammatory, As soon as I posted it I regretted it, and please ignore it .
WokeAF on July 27, 2019 at 23:52
MP
MommyPino on July 27, 2019 at 13:50
WokeAF, what are you trying to say?
There would be no POINT to say anything except;
1) First comment you dropped was a word salad extravaganza like I’ve never seen and that’s awesome bc it helped me understand.
Helpful to “reader”
2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.
3) I hope you never leave this forum bc I love having you here . You’re helping me learn
The email was not seen until after the comment had been moderated.
HG, was my comment a word salad?
I wanted to do a consultation but I don’t have money. My husband doesn’t want me to do a consultation. I don’t have a job. I have said before when I got a job I will because I’ll have my own money by then. I was going to pay for a consultation when I get back by using some grocery money but I wanted to talk to you badly last night because I was so confused so I asked my husband if I could use the credit card but he said that we have had a lot of expenses recently. He also doesn’t think that I’m a narcissist so he thinks it’s unnecessary and ridiculous.
I guess I’m a narcissist. Ok, I’ll just accept it. It’s not like it can be fixed anyway.
WokeAF, Where did you get this information? From HG?
2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.
Mommypino
I have trouble believing that a narcissist would be so concerned if they were actually a narcissist .
I am very sorry I’ve upset you
Please do not be concerned with anything I have said .
I was being cocky and I wasn’t paying attention to my mind or my behaviour
MP
If you take what I have said so seriously that you decide youre a narcissist and leave this forum I will never be able to forgive myself
I am not saying you’re a narcissist
no one is saying you are a narcissist
I was making some comments that I can explain to you at a later time but right now just please enjoy being with your family
I am so sorry I upset you
I can explain to you another time what was going on but for now just please don’t be upset it was totally an error on my part
WokeAF, K and HG, I am so confused right now. I’m not sure what is the latest now, am I a narcissist or not? I am in Taiwan airport right now on my way home. I’m just really excited to see my family. I think I will just wait until all of your comments go through so I will now if I am currently considered a narcissist or not.
By the way, regarding the the Queen of Victimhood comment, so K, from what I understand, that comment was your reaction to my comment to WokeAF. My comment was not meant to triangulate but that part about you provoking and doing cheap shots was an emotional statement from me after reading you call WokeAF some inflammatory things. I don’t remember exactly the order but you have accused me of lying and manipulating and gaslighting I think. I was getting worried with WokeAF getting more attacked and I wanted to tell her to not respond but I don’t have a way to privately tell her. It would have been nice if I can tell her privately so that you didn’t have to see it. But that additional sentence that I made was indeed offensive to you and inflammatory which was counter to my original intent to not offend you. It was driven by anger from the comments from you that I was reading. I agree that I was out of line there and offensive. I didn’t intend to triangulate but as I was writing it, anger started to boil in my head and added that jive against you.
Mommypino
I fucked up.
I’m sorry.
God I’m such a dick
I’ve had about six completely different perspectives in the last 48 hours .
Shit is happening in my head right now .
Those are reasons but they are not excuses for poor behaviour .
I am attempting to get my shit under control and calm the fuck down .
MommyPino
It would really be helpful if you could remove your ET and replace it with LT.
1. I never wrote that you were giving me a ST.
2. I wrote: Ignoring questions is deflection (silent treatment/stonewalling*). That is a narcissistic trait BTW.
3. I provided WAF with a clear example of your evasiveness (see comment).
“So when you say “Ignoring question is deflection and silent treatment, implying that that is what I did to you, it is lying. You are telling everyone that I did silent treatment on you when in truth is I didn’t.”
1. The above sentence paints you as the victim and me as the attacker. That’s a manipulation.
2. When you repeatedly play the victim role, you remove responsibility for your behaviour by placing it onto someone/thing else.
3. You have wasted so much time responding because you won’t stick to the facts and you keep embracing your self-made victimhood.
This sentence is a blame shift:
“You feel that I should keep on writing to you, prioritizing you” (incorrect, that’s not how I feel at all; it’s not my fault you keep commenting on narcsite)
*Stonewall: delay or block (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies, especially in politics. (Google definition)
OK so now I understand that you were not referring to me when you said that about Silent Treatments. So was the silent treatment just a general example of evasiveness but it wasn’t something that me or WokeAF did? I was seeing the discussions here as about the manipulations that I supposedly did.
K, can I ask, there have been talk about a word salad and how only narcs use word salad. Did I use word salad in this whole thread. I know that I have been struggling to get my ideas across, first with my point of view of the extent of parental control on a minor, and then to defend myself.
Also, the gaslighting, HG said that empaths know when they gaslight but Lessers and Mid-Rangers do not know when they gaslight. I honestly didn’t know that I gaslighted you. I thought that I was defending myself. HG said that narcs use it when they deploy the Twin Lines of Defense. Was my defense mechanism when I perceived that I was being passively called a tattletale asshole a Twin Line of Defense so does that mean per HG’s definition I am a narc? I wanted to do a consultation but my husband and I agreed that we spent so much money right now for the hospital bills, funeral and my trip that we can postpone the consultation. But what do you objectively think K, am I a narc and did I use the Twin Lines of Defense unknowingly? And gaslighted unknowingly?
I have so many questions but for now if you could answer these it would be helpful to me and I would appreciate it. I think I have more questions on the victim card as well as I really don’t see myself as a victim. I have a lot of sad thoughts and guilt right now about my mom passing but I thought that I have always tried to face hardships in life with a good attitude and even my husband says that I rarely complain. So I don’t understand why here in this blog you think that I’m the Queen of Victimhood lies and cheap shots. Do you really believe that or were you just angry at me when you said that?
MommyPino
You are a kind person and you have a lot of feelings to process. Focus on that and your family. This is all secondary to that.
1. Correct, neither you nor WokeAF have given me a ST and, to be clear, I did not state that you did.
2. When an individual plays the Victim Card that’s a manipulation.
3. Nobody deployed a word salad here.
4. When I wrote: This comment reads like a word salad. I was being facetious (flippant; inappropriate humor)
5. You are not a narcissist and you didn’t use the Twin Lines of Defence.
6. You wrote conflicting statements, I was confused and doubted myself so I re-read the thread for accuracy.
7. When I asked for clarification you were evasive.
To properly address the Queen of Victimhood comment, I need to re-read the comment. I will RSVP ASAP.
K
I’m sorry I may actually have used triangulation against you with mommypino.
In fact I think I did looking back .
WokeAF
It’s ok. Shit happens. Just learn from it and adjust your behaviour accordingly.
MommyPino
Ok, here are the comments. Please look at this with LT.
MommyPino says:
July 26, 2019 at 15:31
WokeAF, I think that it’s best for us to stop responding and posting here except to ask HG. This is not going anywhere. She is trying to provoke us with personal attacks, lies and cheap shots just so we would end up responding to her again. I honestly don’t understand what is going on but this isn’t worth our time. I’m sorry that you got dragged into this because I reacted.
K says:
July 26, 2019 at 18:21
Wow! Look who’s talking; The Queen of Victimhood, cheap shots and lies.
Evidence of my lies?
1. If I lied, it would be helpful if you could point it out to me and I will own it.
2. You and WAF tossed around “tattletale asshole” which was unfair because you rewrote my comment to WAF, painting yourself as the victim and me as the attacker, which was incorrect.
3. It wasn’t going anywhere because you were too busy playing the victim card and deflecting.
4. I made observations and responded with aggressive and harsh comments.
This quote also indicates triangulation. When I was ignoring you it was not to triangulate you. Here I am trying to resolve things with you and she’s trying to steer me in a different direction
WokeAF
To be very clear, I didn’t think either of you were ignoring me. There were no STs deployed by anyone.
When an individual plays the victim role, sometimes, they will try to get others to side with them and then engage in character assassination and scapegoating. That’s why it’s VERY important to look at the facts rather than jumping onto the “Victim Bandwagon”.
K
Noted.
K
Also noted character assassination and scapegoating, for keeping myself in check.
Now… as a victim role move, I know a codependent at work Who is a side splitter . Would a victim codependent engage in character assassination and scapegoating just for fun even if they are not involved ?
WokeAF
Yes, there are myriad reasons for playing The Victim and one of those reasons is to create drama to avoid boredom.
Hmmm. I had Originally identified her as a codependent, but then lately I had become to wonder. I think my gut instinct was correct and that she is codependent but I would like to know more about this stuff and how it presents in so far as the negative behaviours
The comment by me complaining that I am writing a reply to you instead of being with my cousins was indeed ET driven because I thought that you were identifying another manipulation employed by me and it felt like now I’m being accused of doing silent treatment if I didn’t respond. I now see that since you didn’t accuse me of doing silent treatment, I was reacting towards my wrong perception and I was blaming you for it. I can see it. It was indeed ET. And thinking more about it I can see how that is playing the victim. So is that my problem, I get angry and play the victim?
MommyPino
Please, spend time with your family and enjoy your visit. That is very important.
You are upset and I don’t blame you one bit. It would be very helpful if you could take a step back and look at things objectively.
When an individual casts themselves in the victim role, then she/he is no longer responsible for her/his behaviour and then it becomes a shit storm of drama with finger pointing, deflection and projection.
MP
MommyPino on July 27, 2019 at 13:50
WokeAF, what are you trying to say?
There would be no POINT to say anything except;
1) First comment you dropped was a word salad extravaganza like I’ve never seen and that’s awesome bc it helped me understand.
Helpful to “reader”
2)You’ve never consulted with HG. You’re never GOING to consult with HG. You will always have an excuse.
3) I hope you never leave this forum bc I love having you here . You’re helping me learn
I go with humour.
I still see everyone as not “other”, it’s a thing . … Not the same, OBV, but in the absolute sense- not other. Pointing it out can help . But ….for me… Humour. I do find it all utterly delightful. Like yum yum hilarious. Truly.
🙏 thanks sister 😉
K also- you using the correct terminology really helped and will help me , so I can reference what’s happening quickly and keep composure (w my babydaddy, future encounters, etc.) so 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
WokeAF, can you please explain to me what is going on. Why did you ask me if I was having a stroke in my first comment. Can you please explain like you’re explaining to a foreigner or a child the context. Was I out of line in my first comment? Please I just want to understand. I’m extremely confused by all of this for days. I don’t understand what is going on. Please point out to me what is wrong with my first comment. I still trust you but please let me know if you are turning against me. I’m having a hard time understanding what is going on.
MP
-I asked if you were having a stroke bc your comment was a massive word salad and I was making a joke
-you shouldn’t trust me. You don’t know me.
None of us know each other or if what the other person is saying is truth or lies.
It would be helpful for everyone to keep that filter on.
-I’m not turning against you. I find you absolutely fantastic, and love reading what you say.
@WokeAF, I have not read really any of the posts over here because I have not watched Big Little Lies yet but I knew there was a lot of activity over here. I don’t know who is involved, who is right or wrong… I just see your apology and I scrolled back to glance at some of the older posts quickly and I can’t help but respond…
My husband is manic depressive. He gets (in his words) “Jacked up” (manic) often, out if no where. Sometimes it causes so much anxiety for him that he tries to reach for anything tangible that he thinks can help him to explain the feeling.
It’s sometimes scary for him to have these feelings just come out of no where, with no rhyme or reason but they do. As a matter of fact, he went into this state last night… he was calm all day and then suddenly something came over him…today, it caused him to pick a fight with me. I didn’t understand and told him that, and I pointed out all the reasons why I felt he was being unfair (he was making things up to try to blame me for what he was feeling inside) it ended up hitting him that I was right and being honest… struck him like lightning (I actually saw the moment the revelation hit him written on his face… and he ran across the room to me crying, hugged me and said he was so sorry. He’s okay now, thank God. He tries so hard, I see it. I feel terrible when this happens to him.
Anyway, why I mentioned all of that is to say that the way you speak, jumping around, the word choices you use to describe the feelings that you feel and sometimes can’t contain, your confusion, strongly resembles the way my husband speaks when he describes his episodes and what I observe with my own eyes. I know he is helping to fight it and he’s being taken on a ride he doesn’t want to be on.
I am new here and hope you won’t take it as an insult that I am pointing out my observation but I feel it would be wrong of me not to and really just want to help. Maybe I’m wrong but maybe it wouldn’t hurt for you to have a consultation with a professional about it? Or, maybe look up BPD and read up on manic episodes? I wouldn’t wish that anxiety on anyone and no matter what it is, I wish you peace.
Thank you for your comment
I’m not manic depressive or bipolar . I’ve seen shrinks. I do have anxiety .
This happens occasionally ( it might not happen for years , or it might happen three or four times in a year depending on the reason )
What triggers it is ;
A) I have a sudden awakening in awareness
B) I’ve missed my anxiety pill for a couple days
Or
C) I experience a trauma (mom dying /, or find out I was cheated on , for example)
This time it was A and also C because rapidly seeing a whole bunch of new shit about yourself and realizing all the places in your life you have played the victim is traumatic,
and so is narc abuse which leads me to not trust what anyone says as a safeguard.
And then I didn’t sleep. Just for shits and giggles .
Yes I have been manic for about 48 hours . It’s OK though it has popped and I am deflating and relaxing . I am really hoping to hear back from Mommypino though -that she is OK because I feel genuinely like a total jerk considering what she’s dealing with right now
The next time I see my doctor I will explain to him as best I can what happened and he’ll probably send me to a shrink and the shrink will say , how often does this happen ?
and then I’ll say exactly what I just said to you .
And then they’ll tell me to sleep regularly.
Which is excellent advice .
I will ask my doctor about manic-depressive though , Because while I do not get depressive, I do have insomnia on the regular. I’m a shift worker so sometimes I work nights sometimes I work mornings , afternoons- it messes with you
Thank you for caring
WokeAF, I just had time to read the new comment updates in my email and I still haven’t read everything. No need to worry about me. I just got back last night and was resting and enjoying my family. Brought my matrinarc’s ashes with me in my carry on suitcase but I forgot to take her out last night because I was so tired from the long flight and drive home. This morning my husband told me when I woke up that we have company downstairs. I asked who, wondering who would visit us that early. He said that she’s in the suitcase. It’s the quietest that I have ever seen her.
Anyway don’t worry about all of that craziness. Honestly I didn’t believe that I’m a narcissist. I know myself pretty well. I was just going to agree with whatever the verdict in the blog was because I didn’t really care and I just wanted to move on. There are more important things.
Thank you for your apologies. It’s all good now. And I’m sorry for your loss.
MP
Omg PHEWF
I actually was quite worried as I was going to sleep last night because you hadn’t checked back in and then I noticed you hadn’t checked in today that I can see
But then I thought well she’s just like me she’s a big girl she’ll be OK
But also I understand that we all have trauma from our narc abuse and I am so fucking sorry for being a jerk to you
This is a huge relief to me and I can let out a big sigh !!
And just to add a little bit of levity
My moms ashes had to be mailed to me (I live in a different province and even though she knew she was dying she was instructing her boyfriend not to tell me because she didn’t want me to worry so that really sucks)
When the ashes arrived in the mail 2 months later as my stepdad LMR NARC Took his sweet ass time sending them to me )
I said to the kids; “GRANDMA’S HERE!”
It was funny .
Anyhoooo glad you’re back and I’m sorry for YOUR loss
My pleasure WokeAF
Always go with humor. The terminology here is fantastic and now I use it when I defend children who are being bullied in the school system.
K
I love that you do that . With all my heart.
I will use the terminology also to assist my child.
I’m going to make a list of all the terms and definitions one day and print it out for my kids too
Thank you WokeAF
I am doing the same with my children. My nine-year old knows more about split thinking than the school psychologist.
And in the interest of clearing something up from the start of all this
I fully support children having free agency to birth control and full body autonomy .
I just have a little bit of trouble when people say someone “should” behave in a certain way . Under any circumstances . I do understand that it is betrayal to assist someone to get birth control and then go rat on them to their parents I understand that that is betrayal.
I just have a big problem with the word “should”
Of course if Bonnie ratted her out to MMM of course she betrayed her trust .
But to say that you should keep someone’s trust is imposing, in my view , a reality (that even most people would experience and agree with.. including myself)
-on to someone else
And that’s projection .
The “should” gives it away.
It’s saying that because someone does something , they are obliged to behave in a certain manner and the truth is they are only obliged to behave in the manner that makes sense to them.
otherwise someone else imposing their reality onto them .
I just really wanted to clear that up so you know that of course I agree with you that it was a betrayal of trust and maybe now that it’s all died down you would see what I was trying to say .
And I know this is not necessarily related to the big little lies thing and I know that’s pretty far out and it’s a lot of brain activity lol (ouch) but it’s not deflection I’m actually engaging in conversation. I’m not competing so that I’m going to win an argument of some kind or anything like that I’m honestly -I swear to HG -putting an awesome point of awareness right to you. (Regarding daily projection of normals and empaths.)
ANY “should” is projection. I promise. But it’s pretty deep- youve got to really go into it – and then it becomes totally obvious .
And it will help you pick out projections from empaths and normals- even if they don’t know they’re doing it-
– And you’re right it is manipulation . Any projection is manipulation . Even if no harm is meant by it
WokeAF
HG used the word should in this comment. Do you think he’s projecting? Do you think he’s imposing his reality onto those who speak with him in consults?
HG Tudor says:
July 18, 2019 at 14:19
You may share the outcomes if you wish, it is personal information pertaining to me that should not be disclosed. I don’t do it, i expect those who consult to abide by the terms too.
K
Drop it
I was expressing a viewpoint. You don’t agree with it.,that’s fine .
WokeAF
Here’s a slice of humble pie:
What you are doing is called Argument by Assertion. You are trying to argue a point by asserting that it is true, regardless of contradiction. (Wiki definition)
Is mollyb5 projecting?
mollyb5 says:
July 29, 2019 at 02:19
You should …it has a little person and ugly people and wolves and a tall awkward knight ..and many bearded men 😉
Is MP projecting? (BTW her comment is a great argument against cultural hegemony and supports my argument)
mommypino says:
January 16, 2019 at 18:53
I have come to a conclusion that a lot of the problems that we have is when we impose our own realities to other people. When a narcissist feels what they thought was love, that is their reality. We have our own reality of what love is and IT IS NOT compatible or in line with their reality of love, so now we decide to impose our reality to them by sticking with them and believing that we can make them or SHOULD make them love us the way we think love should be (based on our reality). Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives. Let them live their lives in their own realities and rules and we should live our own lives in our own realities and rules.
https://narcsite.com/2019/01/16/the-narcissist-manipulates-bringing-up-the-past/#comments
I was attempting to express an insight I’ve had
I’m not trying to win an argument
I don’t really follow the example you gave because my brain is not totally back online even though I did sleep for 12 hours yay
You can keep trying if you want and I might review it when my brain is like a little more with it ,maybe I’ll get what you’re saying
WokeAF
To be clear, it’s not about winning. Your assertion isn’t very insightful.
This is your argument: ANY “should” is projection.
The evidence clearly contradicts your assertion.
K
Ok I had a coffee and reread
Yes, both ppl are projecting their opinion
Molly is projecting that the other persons reality would benefit from watching the show she doesn’t know if it would or not . She thinks that it would she’s demonstrating this by advising the other person to watch . It’s a mild and very innocent projection
MP
I see MP saying we should stop projecting our reality on the narc . In essence it’s probably good advice from my view . But really she doesn’t know what we should or shouldn’t do because she doesn’t know what our reality would benefit from the best .
Anyway that explains the inside I’ve had a little bit further I’m not trying to win an argument just so you know I’m just explaining where I’m coming from and how I see the world
WokeAF
Reductio ad absurdum.
According to your argument, HG, Mollyb5 and MP (and everyone else who uses the word “should” on narcsite) is a manipulator. Wow! We have a lot of manipulators on narcsite.
You conveniently missed MP’s statement:
“Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives.”
(the operative word in MP’s sentence is: should, which means she is projecting)
I am saying that manipulation happens whether or not it is intended.
Which you agreed to in your rape analogy.
I had said not all manipulation is harmful. And that we all do it daily.
Another example
I had an extremely stable and loving childhood . Both parents were incredibly involved in my life there was no with use and I was raised in an intelligent and loving environment
When I was 16 I discovered my mother was having an affair with a married neighbour .
This brought about a chain events that had my mother Openly date this neighbour while both families watched,and then leave my father and my father become a drunk
In an instant I went from a stable loving family to being emotionally abandoned by both parents.
This led to me going out ,finding a narc and beginning a family of my own by having children with him very young
My children have turned out to be two of the most beautiful empathic souls I’ve ever known .
Now many people have told me that my mother should not have behaved that way
That my mother should not of cheated on my father
That my father should not have become a drunk
While these”shoulds” May be agreeable to some , it is projecting an assumption that one knows the bigger picture .
However if my parents had behaved how they “should” have behaved I would not have my two beautiful empathic children
To say that if Bonnie takes Abby to get birth control she “should”not read her out to Madeline ,
Implies that one thinks they know what’s best for someone else . It is projecting their own reality into the situation .
If someone says as a blanket statement as you did and I cannot find the direct quote right now
That if you are given a secret by someone you “should”keep it
It implies that you have a general rule for how people “should” behave and that you know the bigger picture
In HG‘s comment he is advising us that if we do not do not follow the rules of the blog then we are behaving in a way that is not in accordance for how he wants to run the blog .
That’s a bit of a trickier use of the word “should”
However in the debate on the situation with Bonnie I’m seeing things more along the lines of my demonstration in my earlier explanation .
I hope this clears things up for you .
I think in a very big picture way as I was trying to explain numerous times in this thread including my quantum theory example .
I am not trying to call everyone here and manipulator , but I think that that IS what you were trying to do by listing TO MP ANY MYSELF our manipulations VIA narcissistic traits
Which is why I piped up for MP to begin with
WokeAF
I am not the one denying Abby or Bonnie autonomy and control or judging them by my morality or culture. Abby knows what’s best for herself and it’s her choice to go to PP without informing anyone.
This statement is deflection: I am saying that manipulation happens whether or not it is intended.
This statement is wrong: Which you agreed to in your rape analogy. (that’s not an agreement by me at all)
Intent is irrelevant; it’s still rape.
My mike did not pick up on what I was saying Lol
Even my mike misunderstands me ha ha
There’s no way for me to explain the way I see things without looking like a fucking head case (which I might well be for all I know ) so I’m gonna just drop it
K
Additionally ,
“Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives.”
(the operative word in MP’s sentence is: should, which means she is projecting)
Yes. Yes she’s projecting . She is trying to coerce other people to behave in a certain way that she views would be more in harmony with the situation on this blog
It is a mild and INNOCENT projection
WokeAF
Your argument is baseless and absurd and you are contradicting yourself in this paragraph below.
I see MP saying we should stop projecting our reality on the narc . In essence it’s probably good advice from my view . But really she doesn’t know what we should or shouldn’t do because she doesn’t know what our reality would benefit from the best .
It’s interesting how the behaviour on this thread belies the comment made on The Narcissist Manipulates : Bringing Up The Past
K
I understand what you’re saying .
You engaged me to further define my POV
I tried
I think i can still interact on the blog without getting into conversational debate on semantics
I’m sorry to anyone who took my attempt to clarify my POV as arrogant nonsense.
( and I totally understand if that’s how it’s coming off .)
K I invited you to just drop it earlier but you seem to want to continue to engage So I humoured that for a while
But I can see it’s just training to another debate on the right and wrong i’m not into it and there’s no way for me to explain the way I see things without looking like a fucking head awe ( Jaime will be for all I know )so I’m gonna just drop it
K. Also thanks for pointing out the playing the victim card thing because that’s really interesting for me
Also;
Orienting myself in life is very difficult bc my viewpoint is so open
And due to that my logic defences were not intact
Which is how I attracted narcs
I realize me explaining my perception may come off as me being a pretentious dickhead in order to prove a point. It wasn’t the intention.
I e reread what I write and yes- it sounds absurd.
So, that sucks. I’ll note that and try to stay concise on the blog.
Hi K, Perhaps this article will shed light on the MRN’s use of should:
https://narcsite.com/2018/02/08/you-should-3/
Any sentence can be rephrased to eliminate should.
You could say, “I respect others’ privacy and their right to choose with whom they share personal information.”
MP could say, “I believe parents are better positioned to make the best decisions for their children. Therefore, I would not observe the privacy of a minor and would tell the parent if a child asked me for a ride to PP.” She could add, “This is a common view for people from my cultural background.”
Both of these minor alterations take ownership of personal views.
I am not saying anyone “should” change their language, haha. I am just making the point that owning our position removes any imposition of personals views on another. Hope this helps bring closure to this convo.
FYC
YASSSSSS 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You took some of my big picture and made it smaller 🥰
FYC
Ha ha ha….perhaps I “should” read it. Fuck me, now I am manipulating myself! Thank you!!!
Haha K, no you are not. The word “should” is used by most people and not always about overt manipulation. When it’s used by a N you will feel the imposed judgement. I understood your message immediately. No manipulation involved.
Thank you FYC!
I knew you that you knew. Your LT is at the forefront.
K, You are most welcome.
Moral of the story: Never “should” on anyone.
“Moral of the story: Never “should” on anyone“
Funny.
Haha. I read that one a few years ago in a tweet and liked it. No worries about anything, WAF. You owned your part. Remember your epiphanies and turn the page. Besides, empaths don’t “hold grudges and nurture them like little pets” as MMM on BLL does. Besides, I think this accelerated KTN hits by about 700+, so the house really does win!
I’m sorry to everyone !!
I’ve had a tsunami of insights like bam bam bam
One after the other
I guess something opened up the floodgates
NOT EXCUSES FOR POOR BEHAVIOUR
I’m trying to figure out what is happening because I would go so far as to say I am never like this or at least very very rarely
I have been on this blog for a year and a half although I have not been active really
First I was under the initial of just W, then I was DEMBunny and then I became WokeAF
I’ve been reading and occasionally commenting for a year and a half so you can see I hope, that I am not one to come in and start drama normally
I am unclear at this time why I started behaving like this all of a sudden and I am trying to own all of it
I came in here and started drama and I don’t really know yet why
As soon as I figure that out I will let you know
MP I started putting some information together in my head and then I got confused and turned around and I’m really sorry
And again that’s not excuse for my behaviour my behaviour was dramatic and inflammatory and out of line and I caused drama in a blog where there isn’t normally drama
I’ve never seen drama anytime I came in here as far as I can remember , and if anyone has noticed me start drama in the past under any of my other names feel free to point it out so I can look at it
I didn’t realize about the victim card and how that presents and codependency and how that presents and I got cocky and started mouthing off and I’m really not clear on why i started doing that
I am considering signing off for a couple of days to clear my head but at the same time I have had an acceleration of awareness in the last couple of days and I don’t really want to close it down either
I’m just going to cool my jets and get a really good nights sleep because I’ve slept approximately six hours in the last 72 because whenever I have an awakening of sorts I get super charged with some kind of positive prideful energy and I start buzzing and I can’t sleep
Once again only a reason not an excuse for bad behaviour
I don’t know why I’m like this in general I am aware it’s not normal
Sweet dreams WokeAF!
Yeah it’s only two in the afternoon here and I just dropped my kid off at a friends house for a sleepover and it’s the first night away from him I’ve had in like a month and a half and he’s autistic and so not getting a night off for a month and a half is a really big fucking deal and there’s no way I’m just gonna go to bed and sleep it away
Excuse the run-on sentences I’m using my mic
however what I am going to do is lay down on my couch and relax and maybe engage a little bit more and read some more and not get all riled up over something and then in a few hours I’m gonna go to bed and sleep like the dead for about 16 hours
Sweet baby Jesus. Let us finally be closing the door on this.
My proposal/suggestion:
WokeAF: Sleep for 72 hours
MommyP: Enjoy your time with your family
K: Retire to the quiet of the library
Then lets all make like a narc and act like that was then and this is now. Because that is the case. Any personal concerns left over can be discussed with HG in a consultation to avoid overlapping comments and any further misunderstanding.
Please let us return to our regularly scheduled program and the assignment of analyzing FICTIONAL characters.
I’m good with this idea.
NarcAngel
Ha ha ha….don’t look at me; I’m innocent and I made a valiant effort to stay on topic.
Right now, I’m in my War Room plotting my next move. JK!
And the stupidest friggin thing about all of this
I’ve just re-read the whole thing completely objectively
And I’ve returned to exactly the same perception I had in the beginning. Of what was going on .
And I’m just saying that because I find it weird
WokeAF
That’s incorrect. Using the word “should” is not projection in this context, it’s referring to a possible event or situation.
K,
I wanted to tell you what a helpful person you have been to me on this blog that HG has generously afforded to us all. Both, your thoughts and searches are appreciated. Love to you! E
Thank you E&L!
I love you too! Ha ha ha… the warm and fuzzies are making the cold and haties (plural of hate) go away!
K—I wanted to
reply above but I was not able to. I just wanted to mention I think the school bullying work is awesome! I’m starting to talk to my kids about the pathological behaviors. Right now the topic is blame shifting. They like it. It’ll protect them by open discussion/examples..
Thank you Lorelei
Excellent and keep up the good work because they are gonna need it now and in the future. I use HG’s lexicon when I speak to the children so they know the correct terms and they recognize the manipulations much quicker now.
Jesus F my head is splitting from re reading all these threads
HG
, “diluting, glossing over and minimizing all cause doubt and that is gas lighting, as well”
HG – it gaslighting if an empath does this? If it’s unintentional and just the current perspective ? Is it still considered gaslighting?
Addressed in an alternative comment.
K,
“HG Tudor
FEBRUARY 12, 2019 AT 10:29
Valid observation WS and the appropriate way is to not look at the intent but of the effect. If the behaviour causes you to feel that you are questioning yourself, you are hurt, puzzled, bewildering, questioning ‘your reality’ then it is gaslighting.”
I can’t find a relevant ‘reply’ button in the thread below and I’m lost in all the confusion. However, one thing that I’m certain of is that I need to review “gaslighting.” Do you have a link to where the quotation a bit above took place? It looks like it may have been a good conversation.
Thanks so much,
WC
WhoCares
That comment can be located on this link. It’s a great article. Enjoy!
https://narcsite.com/2018/11/26/the-terrible-gaslighting-twenty-2/comment-page-1/
You’re the best, K.
Much appreciated.
WokeAF
Responsible for my own idiocy!!
That is a truthful statement.
Yes and genuinely hilarious to me as I do several cell-phone-in-the-freezer type of things on the daily 😂
I will literally be hearing “WELL! You’re responsible for your own idiocy” in my head when my narrator pipes up after I do , lmao
Good humour is everything.
WokeAF
True, there is good humor in everything.
WokeAF, I think that it’s best for us to stop responding and posting here except to ask HG. This is not going anywhere. She is trying to provoke us with personal attacks, lies and cheap shots just so we would end up responding to her again. I honestly don’t understand what is going on but this isn’t worth our time. I’m sorry that you got dragged into this because I reacted.
MP no no no , trust me, I got this. 😉I will be your empath whisperer .💕
Oh SHIT.,I just reread this.
Shit. 🤦♀️
Ok .
MP I’m sorting things out w K bc my nature is to resolve conflict and I feel I’ve misunderstood, and BEEN misunderstood.
Also I must seek my own truth in all this.
We Need To sort out our differences separately, ok?
I can only speak for myself at this point.
I’m not taking sides. Pls understand that. I have no beef with you, but you’re on your own from this point , to resolve or not.
I’m going to continue to resolve.
I understand WokeAF. I’m out of here. It’s 1:30 am here and I will literally and figuratively give it a rest. Will never come back in this thread again. Take care. 💕
Thank you WokeAF
You are trying to be objective.
Wow! Look who’s talking; The Queen of Victimhood, cheap shots and lies.
Evidence of my lies?
K;
K on July 26, 2019 at 18:45
Thank you WokeAF
You are trying to be objective.
Oh, it was more than trying to be objective . I got this.
I voted Normal HG 🙂 The kind of guy I wouldn’t be interested in
Mommypino;
I had the best laugh today 😆
I put my cell phone in the freezer and my ice cream bar in my purse
And later I reached into my purse and pulled out my ice cream bar
I was holding the ice cream bar looking at it , totally like what in the actual fuck
And then I thought to myself “oh my God I’m an idiot”
And then I remembered what was said
That I’m “Responsible for my own idiocy!!” 😂 😂 😂 😂
😂😂😂
Mommypino ;It’s my new fave phrase lol
I honestly don’t think I’ll ever forget it cuz of this ,like I’m betting you won’t forget how Jesus took one for the team !
😂
Excellent, taking ownership of your blatant idiocy is a step in the right direction. You are slowly progressing from victimhood to ownership of your behaviour. Wow!
K; ok , but can I have an example of me being in my own victimhood for reference pls thx
WokeAF
Here is a clear example:
You wrote the quantum physics comment. It was incongruous and deflection.
Rather than look at it objectively, you took offense.
1. You wrote it.
2. It made no sense in the context of the topic at hand.
3. Instead of looking at it logically (yes, that’s deflection), you allowed your ET to turn you into a victim.
Essentially, you are a victim of your own stupidity. So, I have to wonder: Are you really that clueless?
It makes sense trust me. But only in a really big picture kind of way and for that reason it was not helpful at the time .
But still my question to you is this where did I turn myself into a victim about it? I thought I dealt with your referring to it as idiocy with quite a lot of humour actually
K ; is it possible you are interpreting my a) unfamiliarity w narcissistic traits and b) my desire to have it explained and c) my own perception of things as “blatant idiocy” ?
I put myself in your place , and other than you misunderstanding my quantum physics comment, I don’t think I’ve displayed blatant idiocy
WokeAF,
Haha that phrase was funny. 😜
I thought these phrases were ludicrous.
1. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
2. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
3. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)
I will vote Madeleine is a super empath 😊
I wasn’t sure if she was empathetic enough to be an empath just because when she heard about the other woman’s rape she didn’t totally know what to say.
Whoops I meant to post that on her thread.
HG 🙌🌹 you should give a prize if anyone gets them all right 😍😍
Indeed, but I doubt that will happen
That’s exciting 😃
This show has been soothing. I love the intro. I listen to the soundtrack all day on Spotify.
A prize like a free consult ? 😉
No
K;
7.I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
(evidence of my hypocrisy??)
Evidence ;
K on July 22, 2019 at 15:11
“WokeAF
Wrong. There are no accusations of narcissistic traits. Here’s a nifty thought: stick to the facts instead of twisting the truth.”
K on July 23, 2019 at 16:26
WokeAF
4.“mommypino is imposing her morality and cultural upbringing in this scenario, which is indicative of lack of a empathy, poor boundary recognition, entitlement and control”
I misread that ? Those are narcissistic traits yes? That is what I meant ny my comment to Mommypino not to worry about projection if marc traits. If you meant it differently – that’s how I read it.
You write;
“(correct; MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits”
Hi WokeAF, K and NunyaBiz,
So sorry I wasn’t able to check in here and catch up on the discussions. I have been visiting different towns in my mom’s province to visit and catch up with relatives and cousins and a lot of them don’t have wifi. I will have to read because it seems like the thread has been long since the last time I posted. Hope all is well and NunyaBiz take care and enjoy your self care time away. 💕. I scanned some of the new comments but I need to read them more thoroughly first to really understand the discussion. But WokeAF, no need to worry about me, I didn’t take it personally and I am just thankful that you understood where I was coming from even though we may have different perspectives. In the last post that I was posted I was happy after reading your comments so when I read K’s, it didn’t get me riled up because I felt understood by you and just one person is enough so it made me more understanding of where K was coming from also when she posted pointing out what she interpreted as my narcissistic behavior. I didn’t fully agree with everything she wrote (I do recognize she was right to an extent but not completely) but I didn’t feel like it mattered anyway because it was just still a difference in opinion and I was more glad and happy that you related and understood my perspective. 💕
Mommypino, ok cool I had wondered if you’d left the convo bc K had said it would be an absolute betrayal of trust (for Bonnie or , perhaps, anyone(?)) to tell the parents the kid was getting birth control, then ppl piped up in agreement – I wondered if you had taken that as getting ganged up on because you don’t agree.
then K pointing out your narc traits , and you disappeared about then, so I thought jeez that was kinda harsh lol so I let my nature to defend the underdog come up, as then things got convoluted and my main interest in clarifying what I was asking about got lost for a minute as well and then *I* got MY narc traits pointed out , and by the end of it I was feeling about as confused as I do in conversations with my baby daddy! heh 😆 😂 it’s hard to stay on point when you’re getting shade.
Glad you’re back ! I totally heard what you meant, and I understood why you thought you were being called a tattletale or whatever – I perceived it that way too,( although I don’t think it was on purpose.)
Sorry that was me rewriting history from my POV and triangulation no doubt as well
If an empath does that by accident, how is it different than a narc?
And what if it’s on purpose? Are there Standard Empaths that are highly narcissistic?
HG , are the non-sociopathic narcs able to feel empathy?
Hi WokeAF, They only have cognitive empathy. The Lessers have the least cognitive empathy as they have less cognitive abilities.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/narcsite.com/2017/02/08/the-three-strands-of-empathy/amp/
Thank you WokeAF,
I feel bad that my absence caused this mess. I would prefer to retire from this discussion as I don’t see anything to gain from this. I thank you for your empathy to help the underdog. I really appreciate it. I night be very busy again tomorrow visiting with people so I’m not sure if I will be able to check my emails or the blog. My relatives haven’t seen me for more than three years so they almost wouldn’t let me leave easily when I visit them.
WokeAF
Risible. MP portrayed herself as the victim and you fell for it hook, line and sinker and then she projected her anger onto cb and NarcAngel by attacking them for supporting me. This manipulation is a blame shift, as well.
Mommypino; sorry if you already stated this ; I can’t find it in all the comments; but what school and Cadre of empath are you ? Thx
Hi WokeAF,
I haven’t done an Empath Detector yet but I will do when I come back home from my trip. HG said in my comment after asking him if I am a Dirty Angel and he said that I’m an empath or he said no I’m not a narcissist (I can’t remember the exact words). Right now my guess is that I might be Standard and combination of Geyser and Magnet. I’ll find out for sure next month.
Mommypino – I tried to click your pic but nothing- no blog (mine is inactive) . HG – Is there a way we can get in touch w other commenters to chat in the future w/o putting our info out?is our blog necessary for this? I haven’t figure it out yet if it’s obvious
No.
1. You are not allowed to contact one another through this blog in order to safeguard people using it.
2. I warn people not to make contact with people from the blog because you do not know who you are dealing with.
Keep your interaction here, believe me, it is for your own good.
Yes of course makes sense. There had been a comment about having someone here on speed dial. I thought perhaps the friendship extended beyond here . Thanks HG for lookin out for us
You are welcome.
WokeAF
I caused that confusion. K and I have a long standing joke that if someone needs to be taken out that there is trust it needed to happen and one will help the other bury the body and take the secret to our graves. I value loyalty and trust. That is why I said I have her on speed dial. We do not know each other in real life. I have followed this conversation involving the 3 of you and have not joined in for several reasons. I will say this though: anyone who would betray my trust or accept to assist me and then use their morals and judgement to out me to others I would consider a tattletale and an asshole. So for example if a teen asked me to drive her to get birth control or even an abortion, I would reason that she came to me and not her parents for good reason. I believe she has dominion over her body and no one else, so no further input is required. I would let her talk it out and explain any consequences. Then if she still wanted to, I would take her. I could refuse to help also (I wouldn’t but its an option), but in either of those cases I would not betray them by exposing them and their secret no matter how much the parents believe it to be their right (their right being the right to control and exercise their judgement with final say). Outside looking in on this conversation – narc traits have come to the fore in all 3 of you (as K has identified) and it is an example of the emotional and varied thinking of empaths (even justice, honesty, and decency have different meanings depending where you sit). But ironically what it really emphasizes is our tenacity to hold to our beliefs and remain insistent that we be vindicated. The same tenacity that makes narcs lick their lips with anticipation and causes us to stay.
Thank you NarcAngel
Because of this debate, I am much better at recognizing projection now. I agree; judging other people’s personal medical decisions by your beliefs or culture and sticking your nose into another’s choice to use BC or get an abortion is the height of hubris.
NarcAngel: ok thanks for clarifying re:being in contact outside of the blog
NA,
I already understood your position on your own morals , and appreciate your language “I would consider an asshole” rather than blanket statements
“Outside looking in on this conversation – narc traits have come to the fore in all 3 of you (as K has identified) “
The only thing is, K never actually identified , nor admitted to , any of her OWN.
And what K identified are narc MANIPULATIONS, not traits.
Pride, selfishness, etc- those are traits, which we all have
Deflection, gaslighting, etc those are narc manipulations, used to hide the truth and for personal gain.
What is happening here is the opposite of that- trying to COMMUNICATE one’s personal truth , in the interest of MUTUAL gain.
So shutting down a commenter by listing off perceived narc manipulations IS an attack. It’s saying the other person is just trying to control the outcome of the conversation to one’s own gain. To WIN. To tell the other person; you can’t talk , nothing you say is relevant – bc I’ve decided so. And my word is fact. (Which I was illustrating in my courtroom joke)
MP admitted she misunderstood and got butthurt but STILL K is declaring her a liar and shooting jabs at me regarding my intelligence . Like COME ON !
Because why, she felt gaslighted?! I felt confused and questioned myself too . But she’s not a narc and she’s obv not trying to gaslight me.
When a person is manipulating you , yes you feel shitty but it’s not bc you feel shitty about their perceptions being wrong
It’s bc you feel shitty bc they are messing w your reality.
I wasn’t messing w K’s reality.
MP wasnt messing w K’s reality. She was stating her own. Big difference.
a clue is, the other person is still trying to communicate and reach understanding.
I wanted to know if K thought her morals were THE morals. Which she does- and everyone else is A-moral (not “I would consider an asshole” as you said – but rather that they ARE amoral. Period)
Just like MP is a liar, period
Just like I made myself look like an idiot, period
There’s no room there for communication. It’s a shut down.
And yes , tenacity for vindication. lol 😂 I’ve said I’m kind a pit bull with a steak sometimes and my narcs do love it 💕
WokeAF
K identified narc traits coming to the fore and I agreed in general for all 3 of you. I am not agreeing to specific manipulations. I think this is common in lively debate so was not surprised or unsettled by it. I was referring however to the contrast in individual interpretations of honesty and decency regarding the rights of the teen vs parental involvement and the actions of a third party, and the narcissistic trait of pride for example, allowing the discussion to become emotional and stray from just exchanging those interpretations into what appeared to be enforcing them on one another.
NA fair enough ! I agree. I’m trying to sort it all out
WokeAF
Wrong. I admitted that I have the narcissistic trait of pride and a sense of superiority. It’s interesting how you haven’t pointed out MP’s arrogance, pride or selfishness. You are clearly biased.
Traits are a distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person. (Google definition)
Narcissistic traits include manipulations.
Wow! I didn’t shut down the conversation, however, mommypino repeatedly shut it down by ignoring my comments. That’s arrogance and lack of empathy. She made it all about herself and played the victim and you bought into it.
MommyPino says:
July 24, 2019 at 15:26
Hi WokeAF,
I didn’t bother to respond to K’a blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. (wow!)
This paragraph below is a blame shift. Try taking ownership of your behaviour in this debate and I declared MP is a liar because she lied. That’s a fact.
“MP admitted she misunderstood and got butthurt but STILL K is declaring her a liar and shooting jabs at me regarding my intelligence . Like COME ON”
News flash! There’s no room for communication when you and MP keep blame shifting, manipulating, deflecting and playing the victim card.
K
She didn’t lie;
She forgot what she said 😂
Her ET was up and she lost the plot
You repeatedly calling her a liar after this probably didn’t help matters . 😆
It certainly didn’t win any favour from me, no offence. Lol but you were at the time also calling me various things including an idiot Lol!
WokeAF
Fact: MP lied.
Still playing the victim card, I see. Poor MP is a victim of circumstance and you are a victim of your own stupidity.
K
Again, for clarity for observers (I may be the only one remaining lol) what did you perceive as MP having lied about?
NarcAngel
These statements.
2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)
K
Fuck how do you keep up?! That would’ve taken me hours to compose. Do you have a photographic memory or something?
WokeAF
ha ha ha…the magic lies in my paste and copy skills.
K
Dude. I’m really not a stupid person. I may not be as hyper aware of when someone is playing a victim card or actually perceives the self to be a victim as you at this point in time
and I would like to learn anything you have to offer, btw
WokeAF
Here’s part of the problem. Look at the facts rather than spending your time explaining it all away. When I read this comment, I saw: deflection, lack of accountability, minimizing/glossing over, denial, excuses and blame shifting. Unconscious or not; it’s still playing the victim card.
Would you tell a rape victim: It wasn’t conscious though. He wasn’t raping you consciously.
It wasn’t conscious though. She wasn’t doing it consciously. I had perhaps incorrectly understood manipulation to be conscious .When I said it’s not what she meant, I meant she wasn’t consciously trying to blame shift she actually perceived herself as a victim in that moment. And I understood why. She wasn’t playing the victim card U see? It was actually her perception. There’s a difference. Narcs play a victim card both consciously and unconsciously. Yes empaths can go onto their own victimhood of course. But that’s different than playing a victim card . I hope that makes sense
I do appreciate you bringing this whole victim card thing to my attention. I just want to say that right now
I understand look for the facts but I am still learning bear with me
You are welcome WokeAF
My empath sister has done it in the past and she argued with me, too. She was defensive but, after a lively debate, she started to realize her role in certain situations.
I’m gonna just drop this here, in the interest of comedy
Right in the middle of this whole fucking thing I actually said
“I do have inclinations to stand up for the underdog, but I keep them in moderation”
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Well apparently I do NOT keep them in moderation.
What’s really terrifying is this whole thing was me thinking I WAS keeping them in moderation.
Can you imagine me when I’m NOT “keeping them in moderation? “Yeah. 🤦♀️
Which probably evidences just how strong my inclination to stand up for those who are being (as I perceive) bullied or misunderstood is in daily life
It upsets me to a very very very deep level .
Well.
Boy did I learn about projecting my own nature/ explaining away behavior/ looking for the facts today
I want to re-vote . On all of them . 😆
Is there anyway we can get this all on one thread can everyone just reply to this comment from now on is that possible I’m getting so confused
And I’m going to start checking the time stamps because I think I’m answering things out of order
Ps pls check the time stamps in relation to what I post if you aren’t already.
This is actually all so funny to me now. Even though I am completely exhausted almost to the point of tears because this does take a toll on me.
But… As long as no one freaks out on me, I will volunteer to be an empath to empath interpreter .
K
I swear to (HG) I’m not being a dick
But you threw a few of these bombs at MP and I
And the “you are Lying” one , on repeat, is what caused me to (temporarily) shut down my ability to understand you. (I knew MP wasn’t lying ,per se., )
WokeAF
You should reread MP’s comment to you, however, here is an excerpt.
I didn’t bother to respond to K’a blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. I don’t feel the need to defend myself to her. I actually chuckled when I have read that comment from her. It was a sign for me to try to close the discussion with her in a polite or amicable way and just agree to disagree. That’s why I even shared an anecdote about my son to make it lighter. When people start to get personal instead of discussing ideas, it’s a sign that they have an armor and so any further discussion is pointless. I have read many inaccurate statements from K about me and I’m not sure if I really want to invest my time correcting her. I don’t think that people here really care. K has already armored up. And I know the truth. I am not a narcissist. I did not manipulate and lie; I just had a different perception. I did not play a victim; I voiced my frustration. I did not paint the Filipinos as victims. That is probably the most ridiculous thing that K has said. Ridiculous.
1. I never wrote that she was a narcissist. (she is twisting my words)
2. She got personal with NarcAngel and cb. (she should apologize to them both)
3. She clearly played the victim and lied about it; that’s manipulation.
4. She clearly lied and then she lied about lying.
5. She painted herself and the Filipinos as victims, lied about it and then wrote: That is probably the most ridiculous thing that K has said. Ridiculous.
6. This sentence is a blame shift and minimizing: I just had a different perception
it is very clear, her perception is all about herself.
K
( Jesus Christ this thread is so long it’s doing my head in )
“it is very clear, her perception is all about herself.”
I hear your points. But I can see MP’s perspective.
I also see yours
PLEASE I invite you to go re-read anything and everything I’ve written, and imagine you are me, and imagine that I really truly am trying to communicate with you in peace to the best of my ability.
Also imagine that I am someone who somehow someway is able to understand where the person is coming from despite any conversational errors.
And also imagine that you are someone who , because of this ability to see all perspectives, is super frustrated, and sometimes lets ET take over in cases of injustice, stood up for people that you perceive are being bullied in any way. ,
Then re-read the conversation as mommypino, and imagine that you have misunderstood and thought that you were being attacked. And that the emotional thinking is speaking for you to a degree .
WokeAF
I agree; it is a long thread.
Everything was going fine until MP painted herself as the victim and lashed out at NarcAngel and cb. It all went to hell real fast and then, rather than be objective, you jumped on the MP “victim bandwagon”.
I will re-read everything again and you can’t have a fair fight when people fight unfairly by repeatedly removing culpability for their behaviour by blame shifting or deflecting. It is very frustrating.
Hi WokeAF, I did something to my privacy settings so that nobody can look at my avatar pic. I was worried that it might give away too much about my identity or how I look. But I don’t have any blogs. I just created a WP account to be able to comment here.
WokeAF
That was pathetic.
You used the word “accusations” which is incorrect. There are no accusations; you are twisting the truth and that is manipulation.
K, are these not accusations?
“MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits”
MommyPino
Those are facts.
K, those are not facts. They are your opinions. It I was reacting, not lying and manipulating. Anyway, I don’t really care what you think. Think what you want. I’m done with your circular conversations.
Wrong. You are a liar and a manipulator.
MOMMYPINO Yeah I just stopped reading .
Don’t get baited in .
We can’t communicate outside the blog, so this is just in response to your comment . 💕
WokeAF,
I’m not going back to the courtroom. But the new gravatars are making me laugh.😂. Those are the cutest monsters! I guess if I would picture empath monsters they would look like those gravatars. 😂🤣. Thank you HG for the levity. We all need it!
You’re a liar and a lightweight.
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Like what is this?? Exactly?
WokeAF
It was an observation of social mores. Do you actually read the comments or do you just respond with ET?
Mommypino I also just realized something. K stated you used gaslighting. You and I said this was an accusation.
K stated it was NOT (by google definition) an accusation but that she was stating FACTS
HG has said that even narcissistic-but-not-narcissists DO NOT USE gaslighting.
Gaslighting is not used by empaths, only narcissists.
Since these are not accusations but facts, according to K…then By that logic, K is stating (only facts, right?) that you are a narcissist.
Which HG has confirmed you are not- that you are an empath
Empaths do not use gaslighting
By the power of the narcissistic trait of entitlement that I do not have, and the empowerment of logic defences, I declare all of K’s accusations toward both of us null and void
She’s out of order
This whole courtroom is out of order! 😂
Case Dismissed!
*bangs gravel*
It is gavel and auctioneers use them, not judges in the UK, just so you know (common mistake made in courtroom dramas).
Ha! Very interesting. I learn so much information here. Even new words like spectre!
Lol! Yes, gavel! I’m responsible for my own idiocy again 😂
WokeAF
Fact: MP wrote all of these and they are all lies.
Fact: She rewrote my comment and painted herself as the victim and that is gas lighting (see: Revision of History).
Fact: MP is a manipulator.
1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)
https://narcsite.com/2016/05/20/the-revision-of-history/
https://narcsite.com/2019/02/12/the-terrible-gaslighting-twenty-3/
Just curious, were you in the remedial classes as a child?
This one is incorrect and it was written by WAF.
1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
WokeAF
Haha this court is indeed out of order!!! Case dismissed! Let’s all go home! Er … go to a different thread! Let’s all start fresh! New topic! 🤣
K ; I perceived them as accusations .
I was not twisting the truth. I was stating my perception. It was not manipulation.
WokeAF
It is very clear that I am going to have to walk you through this.
Fact: MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits.
That statement is an observation of social mores and it is factual, therefore, it is not an accusation.
Accusation: an assertion or allegation of something, often as a result of opinion.*
You used the word “accusation” which is inaccurate and it paints me as the attacker and MP as the victim, which is a blame shift BTW and a further manipulation.
*that’s a Google definition.
K; pls see this comment and mine below it.
K on July 25, 2019 at 14:00
WokeAF
Fact: MP wrote all of these and they are all lies.
Fact: She rewrote my comment and painted herself as the victim and that is gas lighting (see: Revision of History).
Fact: MP is a manipulator.
1. I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
3.Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
5. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
6. Why is there a necessity for name calling
7. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
9. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
10. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. (gas lighting)
https://narcsite.com/2016/05/20/the-revision-of-history/
https://narcsite.com/2019/02/12/the-terrible-gaslighting-twenty-3/
Just curious, were you in the remedial classes as a child?
—No. but I am such an empath that I deal with seeing almost every single perspective at every moment of every day. It’s overwhelming And I’ve been trying to clarify my perspective as honestly and clearly as I can. I was unclear on your perspectives on morality . Even the quantum physics comment made sense to me on a grand scale and it’s dufficult to express myself in that arena. It actually does relate to the concept of morality, as I don’t see ppl as individuals bc of my awareness level , I experience (about 90% of the time) us all as ….one. (For lack of a better word) and I dropped that in there , but not to provoke- rather to put the feels out to see if you or anyone could grab where I was coming from – and as a biguf humour to myself. And I’d love to engage in discussion on that, any time.
Please stop insulting my intelligence.
Thx
Hg – just occurred to me/ is this what Contagion is ? Getting slammed constantly with all the perspectives and understanding and feeling them ? Or us that just regular empath shit?
I am not sure what you mean by ´getting slammed constantly with all the perspective´perhaps you could elaborate?
I could try. I don’t know how well I would do it in text it might be something for our consult .
Briefly I am able to recognize where the other person is coming from and feel what they are feeling at the same time as seeing where I’m coming from and feeling what I’m feeling , and I can do that with several people at once
It’s why I’ve moved to an island with a population of 10,000 and even that is too many
When I go off island to shop, and a Walmart for example, im overwhelmed energetically .
It took me a long time to figure out that I wasn’t feeling angry or irritated for no reason out of nowhere- that I was picking it up from people around me .
. And in the past I did not know that some of that time I was projecting instead of receiving . The way I can differentiate usually is if I have to reach to try to see their perspective , or if I’m feeling something for absolutely no reason and not caused by any thought I’ve had.
OK that wasn’t brief but is probably the best I can do outside of a consult
HG
“in response to WokeAF:
Hg – just occurred to me/ is this what Contagion is ? Getting slammed constantly with all the perspectives and understanding and feeling them ? Or us that just regular empath shit?
I am not sure what you mean by ´getting slammed constantly with all the perspective´perhaps you could elaborate?”
I hope you don’t mind me stepping in and answering from my perspective.
WokeAF
No it is not like being slammed constantly with all the perspectives and feeling them. It is more like the feeling of water washing over us, we never feel slammed yet can feel like we are drowning if we focus on a specific emotion.
We have the ability to step out of our emotions and observe them and not let them effect us in the same manner as those who developed their awareness at a later stage.
Yeah, MY emotions aren’t the problem lol
Your emotions seem to be an issue the other day when you were jumping between MP and K, I left due to it feeling like a screaming match to me.
I do understand what it is like to become more aware and how it feels in the beginning, an awakening thou is different from becoming aware.
Have you gone through an awakening?
Twi
I understand what you’re saying .
The other day blew my mind as I said . I was picking up on K and MPs emotions- trying to play peacemaker , while still trying to explain myself. There was a moment when I became cocky and rude but I was feeling very affected by the hostility of the whole thing .
To be clear there was not one moment when I was writing that I meant to sound hostile- and I did not feel hostile .
There are times when I jump out of my usual position for example if I’m tired or hungry or stressed , or going thru something else.
I’ve gone through an “awakening” 10 years ago, yes.
Of course awakening is never ending .
10 years ago I blew out of attachment to my ego
But it wasn’t totally abiding, so I go back-and-forth which is from what I understand is fairly common for a lot of people .
I experience emotions as energies that move through me , Usually triggered by thought -(which I also experience as something that just passes by ) and I witness my emotions or thoughts and then they dissipate again .
Twi
Have you had an “enlightenment experience”yourself ?
Would it make sense for me to say the I AM says hi ? lol
Man I hope so I’d feel so good if someone here understand where I’m coming from at all
Twi
Also the other day I jumped in here without my barriers up . Stupidly .
I am mediately picked up on what mommypino was feeling and why
And I was off to the races !!!! Lol 😆
I don’t engage in online blogs normally .
It was a good little lesson to check myself before I wreck myself
Twi
In other words, if you’re similar to me you might actually know what I’m talking about when I say this ;
I get pulled into duality by certain triggers .
I can forget these are not my emotions that I am experiencing
In fact I can forget that there is no “I” here at all lol
And therefore for brief periods of time I engage as if there is a “person” with a perspective that I actually need to defend . Lol! And all the unpleasant emotions that come with it .
Sensing that someone is feeling bullied is one of those triggers
So is someone trying to argue as truth, anything that leads to separation
It’s been a journey trying to separate what I’m picking up from other people and keeping it at a distance so that I don’t experience their emotions
I can become a right fired up when I feel that someone’s freedom to their perspective is being attacked witches I understand just emotional thinking , But sometimes it helps the other person too.
OK will now that I’ve explained that I just put my straight jacket back on and see what your response is
Twilight (et al)
I’m still pretty shaky from all of this highly empathic interaction
I’ve explained my general disposition as best I can and this whole thing about contagion is very fascinating but I think I’m going to sign out for the night
A new zombie movie, a new horror movie, and the new season of orange is the new black have just been released on Netflix so I’m going to chill and to tin you to restabilize as I’ve been trying to do for the last two days
It’s very painful for me to be drawn into negative emotion, of other people and of myself . Are usually don’t allow it to happen .
Aaaaand because it’s hard to communicate from such a deep level sometimes i’m checking out for the night I think and I might pop on again tomorrow or I might just take a break
I appreciate all the discussion 💕
ZOMBIE TIME 🧟♀️ 🍿
WokeAF
Don’t assume I didn’t read it.
You were jumping all over the place, nothing wrong with this I am just more calm. Kinda like standing in the eye of a hurricane……step outside of the eye and well I am not so calm anymore, maintaining my focus was never a problem until Jon and it took me awhile to regain it.
Twilight
Omg!! I just recalled that you were the one that picked up what I threw down when I mentioned time being an illusion !!!!
You get it ?you get it !!!?!
holy fuck nice to meet you !!!
Or to use my own personal private joke
Nice to meet me !!
WokeAF
Yes I was the one who came back with agreeing with you on time, you want to take things to a different level quantum physics answers many questions.
I was also the one who said contagions feel 100x more.
I am a Contagion Empath and yes HG told me this long ago by his definition of Empaths, I go by a different “label” in my real life and one I don’t share unless a person actually understands what I am speaking of.
I “see” the world different from others and know or should say have met many who are close due to being HSP naturally not HSP due to environment developing this to survive.
Many think they feel 100x more (and this feeling is real to them) yet it is nothing more then a drop in the ocean in comparison.
For me i “see” people in an energetic sense before i ever see them physically, one reason why I can go out in the woods on a moonless night alone I can “see” everything as if it is daylight because I am using my senses and not my eyes. Everything has an energetic signature.
I am rambling and need to get ready for work.
If you really want to know what school you belong to consult with HG, he is an ultra for a reason and if many actually could “see” him it wouldn’t be question. I knew the moment our paths crossed.
Don’t ya wonder , since HG doesn’t have a “self” either – that maybe he isn’t just the same as the “enlightened” , except he went in the other direction . I’ve often wondered.
Twilight you really DIDNT read the thread did you lol! I don’t blame you . Good choice. I’m EFFED UP from the experience. Go re-read my comments/ I tried to put this out there so much I was fishing like crazy !
* HG
Additionally, w my narcs, I would know they were lying, I would know they felt angry or whatever, but they’d reassure me it was untrue. I would doubt my perception, and believe their words instead of what I was picking up.
For the first few times I’d reunite w a narc, I’d feel physically/energetically poisoned afterwards, that’s exactly how it would describe it to my friends -so I’d put up a barrier and the poisoned feeling would get numbed.
When I would go a few days no contact I would feel 95% better and recognize that I had felt unwell in his presence
This is why I don’t take other peoples problems on as my own normally . It upsets my internal feeling of serenity .
OH. MY . GOD.
I just pulled up and reread the 3 strands of empathy article
So- All the empaths feel contagion right?
When I asked someone to describe to me what a contagion was they had said it was someone that feels things 100 times more than the rest of us empaths
And I thought and I believe I even commented if I had to feel things 100 times more than the way I feel them I probably -in fact Id for sure -be in the loony bin
I do believe this is why I had such a freaking meltdown when I started engaging on here .
When we did our consult I spoke mainly about my narc and about his girlfriend and I spoke very little about myself
I think I might be contagion?! Or at least have a high degree of it? This makes so much sense now if so
And if Bonnie is in fact contagion it makes even more sense because Bonnie is the character I related to the most and because I thought I was a standard magnet, that’s what I voted she was Haha
No, not all empathy’s feel the contagion.
In the interest of this not turning into a public personal consultation I’ll rewrite all that in a concise manner
-feeling other peoples emotions even if you don’t want to
– being able to see their perspective accordingly
– being able to flash back-and-forth from each person‘s perspective and feelings and experience them as if they are one’s own (while having awareness that they are not one’s own – although this was not always the case )
–
I was under the impression until pretty much today that this is was not terribly rare in empaths – But then again I didn’t realize about the different degrees
Not being able to watch the news because of this. Lol !
too painful.
Thx
Those are along the right lines, yes.
Omg it’s soooooo obvious lmfao
I had just thought I was like psychic or something . Well I mean I am I have dreams that come true and I’ve had “supernatural” and “spiritual” experiences or whatever but that’s just say contagion makes a lot of sense right now oh my god what a relief
so now I have to consult with you to make sure 💯 ( but it’s pretty obvious at least have high levels of contagion )
and then figure out what your advice is for orienting myself in the world besides living on tiny islands and avoiding people and not getting involved in online emotional discussions
Again, ignore . I am re reading the thread (AGAIN) and when I speak about my perspectives on certain topics I clearly sound insane.
And it’s irrelevant.
WokeAF
To help you understand my POV, when people introduce irrelevancies (deflection) the conversation becomes tedious.
Of course. I wasn’t in my usual disposition.
I dunno why I was being such an ass.
Thing is, occasionally I might spit something at you that you think is irrelevant, when for me( and perhaps even others) it might not be.
If it is deflection and takes away from the main point too much I’m cool w you pointing it out.
Thank you WokeAF
The occasional irrelevancy is fine, however, in this case, it may have escalated rather than deescalated the situation.
It definitely escalated the situation. But I was completely unconscious during the entire situation. I will not be unconscious again if I can help it
How did you manage to type if you were unconscious?!!
Lol! Hello HG! I’m sorry. I should say, I was not paying attention to my behaviour.
HG although to be honest with you in comparison it does feel like I was unconscious compared to how I feel right now ha ha
WokeAF
Ha ha ha…I appreciate the effort to be conscious. It was just a kerfuffle.
I used the word accusation bc at the time I perceived them as such. I was speaking honestly and it was not a blame shift or a manipulation. It was my perception.
WokeAF
I get what you are saying, however, when an individual uses the word “Accusation”, it has the potential to make the conversation become incendiary. It escalates rather than deescalates.
K
“I get what you are saying, however, when an individual uses the word “Accusation”, it has the potential to make the conversation become incendiary. It escalates rather than deescalates.”
Well shit , yeah! But so does stating “facts” , in this particular case. Lol
WokeAF
Fact: may be understood as information that makes a true sentence true. That’s a Google definition.
Fact: MP is a liar.
You’re saying MP is lying on purpose then?
WokeAF
I can’t tell you her state of mind when she lied because I don’t know what it was.
For the record You definitely have points and you write arguments and thoughts very clearly.
I’m sure most readers and HG see that both You and K are Quality debaters, MommyPino,
even if K convinced me in this particular matter.
Thank you cb. To be honest, I’m not concerned about trying to convince anyone. I have said repeatedly that I respect other perspectives. I didn’t even consider this as a debate. I was just being honest and expressing why I understood Madeline for being angry at Bonnie and why I would be upset as a parent. I was blindsided by the asshole and tattletale. I was under the impression that there was mutual respect and acceptance so I was not afraid to express my opinion. In fact you can look that I even said I love you to K before I have read the other comment. Well don’t I feel foolish now. Thank you for your kind words.
And for the record, I have never betrayed anybody’s trust nor have I exposed anyone’s secret that was shared to me. I have also said that I would only inform the parent if I’m sure that the parent is not abusive and therefore the whole possibility that K said of endangering the child is not something that I would allow either. But I guess I am automatically a bad guy because I’m pro life and refuses to take someone to Planned Parenthood. I just have to say, if my participation is asked for, I do have the right to decline if what is being asked of me is against my conscience. And also nobody who knows me in real life would ever ask me to help them get abortion because everyone who knows me knows clearly where I stand. I’m not mysterious like HG. And if someone is not sure, all that they have to do is ask me and I will tell them the truth.
Thank you again cb. And I really don’t mind when people are Pro Choice or have had abortion. I understand that women in some countries have that right. I respect that. It’s just the mockery of what I said I stand for that has offended me. I can say that I was very careful to be respectful each time I responded, except for the knee jerk response that I sent. It’s not about winning points for me. I just got offended for being mocked.
FIVE MONTHS !!! ?
WokeAF
Ha ha ha…I have added throttle to the midrange list of physical abuse.
Yeah my LMR punched me in the face once “in his sleep” . He thought it was hilarious too. Good times. My LMR one time grabbed my arm right enough to leave bruises. He also “accidentally “ threw the dog’s stick (more like a friggin club) at my back. That hurt. He also found that funny. And other such “accidents”.
My friend had a narc who would pinch her and cause damage that wasn’t too bad but didn’t show with clothing on.
WokeAF
LMRNs are prone to violence and, sometimes, I confuse them with ULNs. My MMRN’s mother would pinch his leg under the dinner table. She was very controlling and sneaky. They hide it better.
I feel like I’m the only one not watching this. Can I get it on prime or do I have to have HBO?
Mercy,
I can’t watch it. I watched the first episode and it was great. When I sought out clips of additional episodes from season one and saw Perry being mobbed by the group of women, I could not take it. I was imagining the horror and fear he may have experienced. I just can’t do it right now. Besides, the actor, Alexander Skarsgard is too gorgeous to kill off. What a waste! I know he is a physical abuser, but I am strictly referring to the actor. How’s that for some shallow appreciation of physical appearance!
E&L, he is yummy IMO too. I like to think he’s a good guy IRL. I’d eat him with a spoon. (There I go again…sex on the brain.)
Real empathy for the nanny being let go
Renata I mean. Sorry wrong post lol
HG , don’t “normals” have some empathic traits, and even some narc traits, ?
How does one differentiate between a normal, and an emphatic person who’s not an empath ?
They do.
Less empathy.
I struggled with this too WokeAF to begin with. So I spent my time learning about Ns first, then empaths. then eventualy the normals plus those who are narcissistic become clearer. Well that’s how it worked for me.
they have clear boundaries so they won’t go out of their way to help you but if its not out of their way etc they’ll still give you a hand. Plus they don’t ST you like an N would.
that’s just a couple of simple tips anywya. there is a fair bit more too it than that.
Maybe HG could do an article on the ‘normals’ to help us distinguish. I appreciate this website is about Ns but in order for us to determine someone is not an N, it would be pretty helpful.
God my grammar is shocking when I type without thinking and don’t bother to review what I’ve written (which is most of the time)! Some of my sentences don’t even make sense to me!
Alexis I feel ya
I lived in Toronto (downtown) from birth to age 31
From age 31-44 I’ve been on a small new age /hippie/farmer island in BC , population of 10,000
-and I swear there’s only narcs and empaths and super empaths LMAO
The normals tend to flee rather quickly I suspect
So I don’t have a lot of normal-case-studies that I can find IRL lol
I can barely remember life when even I (a standard magnet) would walk past the homeless without a second thought . (Never mind taking them a sandwich or home for the night Lol!)
Gosh Woke! Could you not move from there? I don’t know your particular circumstances but it doesn’t sound terribly healthy.
Its on a completely different scale but I used to go to a place I referred to as ‘the watering hole’ some time ago now. I called it this because my N was likely a MR who thought he was a greater and he loved the PDs and this place was full of them. I’d estimate 80% PD 18% empath with at most 2% normals. He would target the empaths too, but there were a whole range of intellects at this place so he had plenty of people he could manipulate and he thrived on it!
It was a great observational experience.
In my work environment I come across many Ns too but there is far more of a balance between all the different personality types so its much healthier.
Are you happy where you live Woke?
Oh I’m super happy! It’s a magical place. It’s known as such. Nobody had to lock their doors, the crime rate is near zero, children never go missing, and if you’re in trouble the whole community comes to help you. Im pretty sure we aren’t quite in the same dimension as the rest of the world lol.
But it’s a very strong-female-empath island.,. And weak male narcs love it bc of that. ESP the victim cadre bc the women, not knowing what they are, adopt them in. Then when they get tossed, another empath is ready to adopt them bc the population is low on singles between 25-50
Mostly we all get along. We are protective of each other and our island , and I’ve inky once seen a pregnant teen in our high school in 15 years – the kids are well nurtured by a fairly emotionally evolved community- for the most part. Shit happens of course. But for example if you get called out for a rape – you’d be visited by several good ole boys who will give you a good beating and then escort you off the island .
I love it here. Even the narcs have to lay low bc everyone knows if you fuck up too bad.
Ah that sounds a bit better. I’m pleased you’re happy there WokeAF 🙂
Alexis I would like to add , to my comment about the almost zero Preg rate in our high school – I’m quite defin sure there are abortions. It’s just that they are highly educated on birth control and other options, and they’re shown that’s there’s a really big life for them outside high school. I’ve only seen one full term, kept the baby pregnancy in 15 years is all. It’s got a running student body pop of 500 so that’s pretty good. It’s also super LGBTQ positive. Just in my daughters friend group I knew one female-male trans that after high school decided to stay female physically after high school, one that went through with hormones, one female that identifies as a-sexual, and one non-binary.
It’s a good place to live 95 percent of the graduates leave the island to seek their education, or work , in other places of the province or the world, and a good portion come back in their late 20’s or 30’s to raise their own kids here.
It’s a tourist destination so it’s expensive to live here – but I live in a cottage literally across the street from the ocean and as a single mom I can afford it here if I live without many materialistic goods. It’s worth it.
A large portion of our pop is over retirement age , and that’s where you find more “normals” I suppose, but empathic normals even still.
A huge portion of the women 17-60 dress and look similar to Bonnie. And behave very similarly. We have our share of rich Renatas and Gordons but they mostly live here in the summer in their vacation homes.
We have a number of Nathan’s and lower functioning Nathans who hook up w the Bonnie’s.
I didn’t think you were being provocative, MP, just something I responded to. Your opinion about M and Ed is shared by others, I’m sure. Everyone isn’t going to feel the same way.
My reason for saying something about it is because I have for some time felt that women get more sexual pressure than men do to be “pleasing” in order to “keep a man”. I used to believe that women should provide sex and would say it out loud, so I get the opinion. I’ve changed my mind. I feel that my doing something like that is actually leaning more toward a manipulation than a healthy sex life if it becomes out of a sense of obligation rather than desire and that empaths can tend to do that. Men rarely get the same pressure to “perform” once married. And I really do think that far more pressure is put on being faithful and almost none on an ability to actually emotionally communicate, which is considered a woman’s problem to deal with if he doesn’t. And when I look at it I see them as equal issues.
It’s just something I have a strong opinion about.
Hi NunyaBiz, I wasn’t sure if my statement was provocative or not. It wasn’t my intention to be provocative and I’m glad that you said it didn’t provoke you.
My dad’s wife I think was a MRN and her dad whom I think was an Upper MRN used to tell her that he wished that she was a boy and didn’t allow her to study to be a doctor because she was a woman and just had her enrolled in Stanford to study Home Economics (this was in the fifties I think). My dad and her first two children were girls and she wanted to keep trying until they have a boy. My third sibling was born (a boy) and she told my dad that they don’t need to have sex anymore because they already have a boy. He tried so many times to make her interested like buying her beautiful nightgowns only for her to get mad at him for disrespecting her by buying nightgowns like that. Fast forward almost twenty years my sex deprived dad met my mom, had an affair and had me. Fast forward 26 years I moved in with my dad to the US and he tells me his story and makes me promise to him that someday when I get married I should do two things: 1. always appreciate my husband’s gifts to me even if I thought that the gift was ugly or not my style, just look at his effort and desire to make me happy and 2. do not refuse sex especially when my husband has been loving towards me.
That’s really my background story why I said it’s unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them. Why stay married to someone you’re not attracted enough to have sex with? I think that my dad was handsome by the way but for some reason she seemed to think that sex was dirty (according to his story). But I totally understand that there are many various reasons for married couple to not have sex together. In mine and my husband’s case, I made this very bad decision (which was highly suggested to my by my older stepdaughter was which I regret listening to) to co-sleep with our two year old. Now she owns our bed and we can only do it in the couch when both kids are asleep (we out blankets over it so the couch is clean!) and it has become very seldom and hard to find opportunities to be able to do it. We both love sex and the co-sleeping decision was really bad.
I do agree that the pressure is more expected from women. I think that most people seem unaware of narcissist husbands who withdraw intimacy from the wife during devaluation and cheat. I think that is absolutely unfair as well. I think that it goes for both sex. But I may be completely wrong here but for couples that do not cheat, I think that biologically men seem to need sex more than the woman. It just seems for my personal marriage my husband celebrates more whenever we are going to be able to do it.
See, I guess that’s what I’m saying, and I really don’t mind if we don’t agree on it at all, but I guess I don’t think the man needs sex more. I feel like that’s an idea and not a fact. Also I think sometimes the man is closeted gay or an unadmitted voyeur/ cuckold, has a porn addiction that interferes with intimacy and has no true need for physical sex or has PE that he won’t address, has secrets or 800 other things. Could be reverse for a woman also.
NunyaBiz, just to avoid possible confusion, my question on the why stay married while not having sex was not directed towards you and was a rhetorical question inspired by my dad’s story. I understand that there are issues in your marriage and one big issue is that he doesn’t give you the connection that you need as his wife. I certainly don’t blame you for not wanting sex as I know that I will be the same if I was in your situation. I cannot have sex with someone that I don’t feel I have a loving connection with even if he happens to be my husband. I know that you are not doing it to hurt or manipulate or have power over him. My dad’s wife (if his story was accurate) seemed to do it to have power over him.
Aw thanks, MP. I may yet work on the issue, just taking some time, it’s been too crazy. I just know a lot of couples likely not having sex, some divorcing, some no.
Either a standard or normal with a reasonable split or empathic/narc traits not terribly strong either way. Perhaps leaning more towards empath.
I don’t feel attracted to him so he’s definitely not an N lol
Haha same
Season 2, EP. 5
“This planet is inhabited by ‘nutf**ks!”
Hahahahaha!
We feel your pain Ed.
You’re one of us.
We’ve all said similar words about the Ns in our lives!
(Not about HG.
Obviously.)
Not Ed, I meant Nathan speaking about Ed!
Apologies to all for the error.
(I need to eat. I can’t function with low blood sugar).
Quote of The Morning: [`Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.` ] ~~K
PrincessSuperEmpath
Ha ha ha…thanks for my afternoon laugh!
I rly need clarification on “empathic but not an empath” vs. “Normal”
Standard empath. I don’t think he creates drama. He likes females has a job, and seems to go with the flow.
I don’t know yet, MP, I just finished S1E5. I wonder if she will be, my mother in law is so strange, but I will definitely tell you if she is. My mother in law very much likes to talk about legal things and newspaper articles a lot. She’ll read a newspaper article from the clipping she saved out loud to my husband, he hates it. She talks about her death and how it is to be dealt with planning-wise. God forbid it’s a future fake. But she triangulated with it once and she likes to explain the will details, she told my husband in front of me that she has a particular item for each of her three children (she has four children).
Story is that she used to work at the town hall in the tiny town they grew up in and when people arrived to do random business such as licensing or fines or property what have you’s she would innocently get them to talk about their pets. If they had pets and she had no record she would then send them violation notices for pet licenses. I’ll see if Meryl Streep is like that, lol.
I was leaning towards mrn because of his victim/martyr attitude. However, he seems too normal with narcissistic and empathic traits. An mrn would have never let his wife go on about her ex all the time and pretty much run the household he wouldn’t run after her storming out to see if she was alright either.
I am just watching the first season again to familiarize my self with characters again before I watch the second season.
Misstasia
You said
I was leaning towards mrn because of his victim/martyr attitude. However, he seems too normal with narcissistic and empathic traits. An mrn would have never let his wife go on about her ex all the time
Truth. But a LMR would. Mine did.
I could go on about my ex until the cows came home- AS LONG AS IT WAS IN A NEGATIVE MANNER
I only watched a few episodes yesterday . I saw him reject her in bed , I saw him giving her a silent treatment, I saw him purposely hurting her in front of another woman at lunch . Passive aggressive stuff . Mid ranger ? I would need to see more .
Or a normal reaction after getting cheated on and lied to? Possibly..
Yeah I think he’s a normal.. I wouldn’t say his reactions are bad for what he’s been through at all.
Not sure …I’m watching some more.
Yeh I’m watching a previous episode and he seems concerned and loving soo. I need to see more .
Yeah molly, he seemed more concerned when I got to episode 3.
I think he likes controlling her and watching her suffer , and the silent treatment he gives her when she is suggesting a couples retreat …and then makes fun of her along with the her daughter as his only response. This is not normal …sorry….It’s wimpy passive aggressive ..and a power play. He even says he was acting one way …and now decided to act another way …since it didn’t get the response he wanted. ( when she walked up to the he was having lunch
Oops sent that accidently
I think that’s true, mollyb5. I see a mean streak in him that I don’t see as much in Madeline. She seems more reactive and insensitive. He seems more manipulative to me.
What do you mean “sent accidentally”?
I think Ed is a normal. In a chat with Nathan he said he was bullied and after years he wanted not to be victim anymore. It souned Ilike a threat but to it was defending or standing his grounds. All claim I am wrak but od I have to I willa defend myself but does not act violently. In my opiniom his emphatic and
narc traits arę in balance
Ed being bullied and wasn’t going to stay quiet or do nothing again in life or wtvr was literally the moment I decided he’s an empath.
W in the actual F is wronggggggg w me 😝 howwwwwww have I not see this massive projectionnnnn 🤦♀️ my whole fuckinggg liiiiiiiife
(Or at least empathetic)
WokeAF
Projection is difficult to recognize; I still have trouble with it, also, I never realized that normals/empaths can project to a certain degree. There’s a lot to learn here.
K
Oh definitely! I mean I look around me in life-and I see people projecting their own views and thoughts and beliefs , thoughts , their opinions their own inner state- it’s like that saying ; you see the world the way you see yourself or something like that .When I’m trying to decipher I guess is when a narcissist project and what would that look like as a post to you when I’m empath or normal it’s projecting something. Like if I’m projecting that I see bullying, because I have a sensitivity to bullying, and then I realize: “oh I’m not seeing bullying, everything is OK.”- That’ a normal type of projection you see in every day life.
But what is projection for a narc?
HG- thoughts?
K
Yes we project but If you notice all the OTHER traits…then it makes sense it’s a narc. If it’s a normal or empath projecting, they should be able to snap out of it like I did,recognize what they are doing and where—- and won’t display all the other traits….word salad, denial, deflection, blame shifting, lying, victimhood, Jeckel and Hyde, AST, PST (ignoring) and all the rest. And if they DO , and then recognize it , there will be CHANGED BEHAVIOUR. . I displayed a few- u helped me see it, i smartened up , and my changed behaviour is a result of that. .I could be a GN , as a might be able to pretend that for a while, but wouldn’t have been caught out on a online forum to begin with. In real life, I have projected before under certain circumstances, but generally keep a clear head. I’ve noticed ppl project constantly unless they’re very self aware (“she shouldn’t have said that to me!” Well , only bc you think everyone thinks like you do. Feel me? . Also all of This literally knocked me over bc I finally understand where I’ve played a victim w/o knowing it. Life changing.
Thank you WokeAF
Correct. We aren’t always aware of our behaviour but, when someone points it out, and we look at it objectively then we are able to see “The Light”; that’s insight.
It seems that binge watching the first season was not enough. I need to get the second one now.
HG, have you seen the second season too?
Of course.
Off topic but i dont usually like beards but i think ed looks better with his beard than he did at the party.
Chihuahuamum, looks like Ed isn’t the only one checking people out! Ha Ha!
🤣 he is pretty easy on the eyes
I could see how some of Ed’s behaviours read as ‘mid-ranger-ish’ but I’m leaning more towards normal because he doesn’t exhibit much jealousy regarding Madeline’s involvement in pursuits outside of the family and isn’t at all controlling about whom she sees etc., with regard to friends. I don’t think most mid-rangers could stomach that and they would lay the guilt-trip on thick for that. Although Ed does do a bit of a pity-play in addressing his needs in the relationship – I don’t think it’s over the top or unwarranted.
He does come across as overly empathetic; so I’m saying ‘normal.’
Does *not come across as overly empathetic
WC, You make some good points. I started out thinking normal, but his passive aggressive elements sent me over to the MMR conclusion. I would not be surprised to discover I am wrong though. I look forward to your thoughts on season 2 as well.
Thank-you FYC – maybe l’ll have to pay closer attention AND see season 2 before drawing a conclusion.
Hi who cares…good pt about how ed isnt jealous or controlling over madelines outside pursuits thatd definitely be a telltale red flag of npd.
Thanks CM, yes he seems a bit resigned to the fact that is just how she is (involved in a lot things) but doesn’t (outwardly) appear overly bothered by it…but I haven’t seen season 2.
My LMR didn’t give a F if I went out or did whatever. He was too busy at home sulking and playing w his toys
If that counts . 👍🏻
WokeAF,
My LMRN supported my arts-related pursuits by acting as “chauffeur” to events and socially engaging my colleagues. (Golden Period.)
In the middle of the relationship he no longer attended but still ‘supported’ them…or allowed me to go about my business anyway.
Towards the end if I received individual attention for my endeavors (or the organizations I was associated with received accolades) he would exhibit jealousy and would make derisive comments: “Well, aren’t we the local celebrity…”
He would ‘promise’ support but then fall through on his promise (it no longer mattered at that point because I had learned not to rely on him and always found my own way to succeed.)
I’m basing my observations on my narc and the first season of BLL as I haven’t seen the second season – but I understand that Ed reveals more of himself later…?
WokeAF
Sulking and playing with his toys. You may find this article helpful.
https://narcsite.com/2017/03/10/the-incredible-sulk/
K
I’ve read it, that’s what I was referring to! I see it now on Ed.
My LMR was a sulky type lol!! . (Also I’ve read every article, watched, every video , and read every book HG’s written, several times, over the last couple years , just so you know where I’m at 😊)
But keep posting relevant ones ! It’s always good to refresh when stuck on a point
(I just said that so you know even tho I’m new to being very active here- I’m not new to HG by far)
WokeAF
As long as you don’t mind, I will post anything that may be helpful.
Thank you WokeAF
Ok, I will keep that in mind. I recently re-read The Revision of History and The Terrible Gaslighting Twenty (to make sure I wasn’t going insane). I find repetition very helpful; it clears up the ET.
K ; I agree I constantly re-read and re-watch the videos. I am frustrated as hell that we haven’t had a new video in so long but I know HG is busy with the shield maiden
And also busy trying to moderate this flurry of comments Lmao
K ; You were not going insane I derailed you but you were actually on the right track I think
Thank you WokeAF
When I was reading the thread, the lyrics to Twilight Zone started to play in my head.
“Help, I’m steppin’ into the twilight zone
Place is a madhouse, feels like being cold
My beacon’s been moved under moon and star
Where am I to go now that I’ve gone too far”
K
That just made me think of the bacon/beer can thing.
I noted also: Ed has toys.
I really enjoy the writing of the show.
It hits home in many ways
I’m only on season one still. He sort of reminds me of my son’s father who is a Middle Midranger, but I haven’t seen too much narcissism yet to point it out as a defininant
S1:E2
Statements made by Ed to Madeline during the beach scene:
1. For every person there’s The One. Case in point, you’re my one.
2. You don’t really seem to adore me. (Where Is The Love? by The Black-eyed Peas)
3. Look, I may not be the good-looking adventure ride, okay, but there is something to be said for being there, for being truthful, for somebody you can steadfastly count on. (he is the good guy, the martyr; this is the typical mid-ranger Facade and pity play in action)
S1:E2
Nathan and Ed meet to discuss the planned parenthood issue and
Nathan makes a back-handed compliment regarding Ed being Mr. Sensitive and today’s standard bearer for the evolved man.
Ed feels attacked and comes back with: Right, so you are the guy who like’s to fish and hunt and I’m Mr. Girly-Man. (defensive; he rewrite’s what Nathan says)
Nathan: That’s not what I meant. I thought it’d be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie. That’s why I am bringing it up with you. (first line of defence: denial, Second line of defence: deflect)
Ed: Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan. Are you threatening me?
(WTF!? Where’s the threat? Ed is rewriting the script)
Ed is a MMRN and that is how I am voting.
I’m Mr. Girly-Man is a Pity Play.
What I’m finding amazing is suddenly I can see the facts
Instead of my assumptions
Like- I can tell the difference.
I sort of could before- but I was snapped to like BAM
I literally went through a full like, 12 hours of cognitive dissonance then snapped thru it.
This is gonna be a crazy ride now
LIFE , nvmd the show! – which I obv have got to rewatch
Arggg fml now I’m behind! I’ll have to change half my votes!!
WokeAF
Wade through the bullshit and keep looking for the facts. The logic won’t steer you wrong.
Yes. My intuition is usually right too. Like the whole Filipino Victim bit – I PICKED UP on that when it was said – but ultimately got too embroiled in my ET about ostracizing and wasn’t SEEING what I read.
Paradoxically (as is with all truth), I need to watch my humour doesn’t ostracize inadvertently.
Logic+Intuition never fails me. I have to watch I don’t project my own good nature on to someone else or onto a situation. This has always been my fuck up .
WokeAF
To avoid a shit show, always stick with the facts. Also, people’s feelings are less likely to be hurt.
Or…subdued fury? My LMR did that. Same …vibe. When he said stuff.
I see it NOW as a challenge to his superiority. Fury. Contained fury?
K, loved your analysis! So thorough and precise.
Thank you FYC
After I read your comment, I thought: FYC made a damn good analysis! It is very clear that you are paying attention at HGU.
Lol K, Thank you so much. I am learning from the best here and I’m really motivated to learn and be able to apply all of it in real life. I have appreciated your help in the process.
My pleasure FYC!
Keep up the good work. Applying it IRL makes a huge difference because you can see it all unfold, like magic, before your eyes. Sometimes, when I am dealing with a narcissist, I think: Oh shit, I just got gas lighted! Ok…. noted. Let’s move it along now.
K, It really is starting to come to light. Once I became more aware of the tactics and behaviors they become more visible, and avoidable. Knowing also takes the sting out of wanting to believe they could be any different. They can’t. So it’s OOCGE for a happily ever after!
FYC
Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.
Narcissists are ubiquitous and unavoidable so the goal is Zero Impact. Observe only, cease giving energy; it’s truly a wonderful place to be.
K, Perfectly stated, and that is my goal.
K,
I voted normal. Now I want to go back and watch it again to see what I didn’t pick up on. I had an MMRN and he was always a dick.
Sophia
During S1:E1, I thought Ed was an empath but I quickly changed my mind during S1:E2.
Ed uses a lot of pity plays, he’s provocative, indifferent and, occasionally displays contempt. Nathan acts like a dick so I think he may be a LMRN but I have to look more closely at him.
Interesting analysis, K. I did not see Ed as a narcissist but rather as an empath married to a MR narcissist. I must admit I did not quite follow everything that was said in that scene between Ed and Nathan but I interpreted Ed’s reaction to Nathan as driven by his jealousy because his wife, Madeleine, seems to triangulate him with Nathan.
The only instance I picked up Ed was looking at other woman was when he makes a comment to Bonnie C about sweat in women and I interpreted as his libido interfering because he is sex deprived.
I observed much more narcissistic traits in Madeleine (entitlement, control, anger, explosion) than in Ed, who seems to be a reasonable kind of insecure guy attached to his wife.
Now, characters often change from one season to the other. I believe it is done to create a surprise sensation in the public. It may very well happen to Ed’s character during season 2, which I have not seen yet. But for me, the Ed in season 1 is not a narcissist.
It is very interesting to see all the different perspectives.
Lou
I love the different perspectives. It forces you to think.
Ed comes across as Mr. Nice Guy, that’s the MMRN facade at work, and he pouts (sulks) and has a “woe-is-I” aura about him. He’s the martyr.
The scenes between Ed and Nathan spiral out of control quickly and I thought: WTF is going on between these two. I think the interaction was The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence at work. Ed’s jealousy and checking out other women were Red Flags.
Madeline looks fabulous but she has low control over her hostility, jealousy and fury so she may be a LMRN.
HG- I cant. If Ed is a narc then I give up
Damn.
K, I started watching season 2 last night (only first episode). So far, I have Madeleine as a MMR and Ed as a standard empath and have no idea what Nathan is. My opinion may change as I gather more information. We’ll see. But I do agree it is interesting to see how people arrive at different results and see different things.
Lou
This show is chaos and I love it! Good luck!
Hi k…i couldnt help but laugh at this conversation between ed and nathan 😄
Then later nathan says to madeline…look over there at how eds looking at me i think he wants to kill me 🤣
Chihuahuamum
I laughed when Ed accused Nathan of threatening him; it just came out of left field.
Nathan is provocative; he’s always stirring the pot. The Wig scene at Annabella’s party was bad. That was a lesser move.
Hi ki….i dont remember the wig scene at annabellas party? Ill have to go back and look.
It was hilarious watching how jealous nathan was of eds performance and vice versa lol everythings a competition between those two.
Then the triangulation when nathan stuck his head in the car wondow to let madeline know bonnie was performing at the party and that she was really talented 😄
Chihuahuamum
S2:E4
During Annabella’s Disco birthday party Ed is behaving like the Incredible Sulk and Nathan tries to sympathize with him but Ed tells Nathan to shut up, and Nathan responds by pulling Ed’s wig over his eyes and then the two of them get into a physical fight!
Renata breaks it up and Ed says: He started it! (blame shift)
Nathan says: I was just joking. (glosses it over; gas lighting)
Then both Ed and Nathan downplay it by saying: We were just playing (gas lighting).
No apology, no accountability, no shame, no embarrassment, they display a complete lack of empathy, insight and boundaries. It’s a child’s birthday!!!
The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence sprang up so fast, it made my head spin!
K….Wow i did not see that scene! I mustve forwarded past it ill have to go back and look thx
My pleasure Chihuahuamum
You are gonna love it. Ed’s got the Incredible Sulk going on and he’s trying to draw negative fuel from Madeline. She walks away and then Ed tries to draw negative fuel from Nathan. Watch how the Twin Lines of Defence presents.
Keep in mind that Renata has her facade up and running because she is the Hostess so her fury is capped and she is getting well fuelled by her guests at the party.
My pleasure Chihuahuamum
P.S.
Note how neither of them apologize to Renata for the fight.
K
“display a complete lack of empathy, insight and boundaries. It’s a child’s birthday!!!”
Yes and I’d think a MMR or up would have the cognitive empathy to keep that shit tight. 🤔
I’m swaying toward
Nate – ML
Ed – LMR
WokeAF
Nathan was a bit feisty and he was a shit stirrer. Ed was mopey and used pity plays frequently so I went with MMRN.
K
WokeAF
Nathan was a bit feisty and he was a shit stirrer. Ed was mopey and used pity plays frequently so I went with MMRN.
See now my MMRN is also a shit stirrer but he’s so charming about it one can’t tell. Until he explodes.
Whereas my LMR was provocative as hell. (Once he got lubed up enough on beer) ppl thought it was the beer , but he was also provocative even when he only had a couple in him (which was breakfast), but he was more sly about it .He would stir the pot incessantly in general however
This is of course just my experience, and I’m only noting as convo fodder –
WokeAF
Beer, the breakfast of champions.
My MMRN was not a shit stirrer, he wasn’t mopey, he had a fabulous facade and his rage was infrequent. I lucked out as far as narcissists go.
LMRNs and Lessers don’t have good facades and tend to be more provocative and beer (fuel substitute) is a great blame shift.
There’s overlap but, the more you read, the better you get with distinguishing the schools.
DOES Ed have a good facade tho? Seems like every time he goes out something goes wrong
WokeAF
I think Ed has a good facade because he has that “Woe is I” poor-me-look. He deploys a pity play (control), we feel sorry for him and he gets emotional attention/gestures (fuel). All is well in his world.
If you wanna narcissist extravaganza watch 90 Day Fiancé on TLC. Your head will spin. Really helping me see it in (real life) action.
WokeAF
Reality TV and the news are the perfect medium for observing and learning to identify narcissistic behaviour and traits. Keep up the homework.
Was it a lesser move?? Bc I just commented on Nathan’s poll, he gives me the same feel as my babydaddy who i suspect is a ML.
But he also kinda reminds me of my MMR.
I think it’s one of the two lol
WokeAF
He is on the line, I think, so I voted Lower Middle Midranger Narcissist (LMRN). He is a Mid with a hint of lesser.
Interesting! This is so much fun.
S1:E2
Note how the conversation between Nathan and Ed was supposed to be about Abby and the Planned Parenthood issue and how quickly Ed derailed the topic of conversation turning it onto himself.
4. Topic Shift
https://narcsite.com/2017/12/07/five-conversational-derailments-3/
I find the interactions between Nathan and Ed pretty funny. In S2E1 I loved Nathan calling Ed snide because he totally is.
I voted MMRN. I struggled with this one, because Ed seems normal with narcissistic traits, but I think it is his effective facade. These are some of the factors that swayed me towards the MMRN verdict:
Ed showed insight about MMM’s lingering feelings regarding her divorce with Nathan during their conversation, yet used his insight to annoy MMM with a seemingly passive/aggressive overt friendliness toward Bonnie in the presence of MMM, then denies and deflects when MMM calls him out on his display of ’empathy’ towards Bonnie.
Ed talks about being bullied and makes a thinly veiled threat to Nathan, but does not carry it out. Instead he toys with Nathan passive/agressively when possible. Both Ed and Nathan seem Ns to me.
When Ed says he and MMM are over, he does not leave, instead he stays and plays passive/agressivly with her through barbs and silent treatments to the point she asks him to stay or leave, but just do something because she is tired of the indirect actions.
Ed is quite happy to engage in his performances as Elvis and other characters for attention. I knew a MMRN that like that too.
Seems to me all of the above is all fuel seeking behavior.
Lastly, and most telling for me was Ed’s creepy, lecherous staring at women–not just an accidental glance–but prolonged staring. Gross and WTF? What normal does that, much less repeatedly?
Maybe I am reading too much into these acts, but that is what lead me to the MMRN conclusion.
I agree FYC for all the reasons you listed above.
I know we’re not voting on cadre but he is clearly cerebral.
And I think Madeline is a geyser.
Hi TW, This is so challenging. For me, I watched the series last year and am watching this season, so I already had certain impressions, but did not analyze each character. So I’m looking back for specific behavioral clues. Midrange and Normals are hard for me to quickly identify, I really had to think it over, and still don’t know if it’s accurate.
Everyone has made great observations and we all seem to pick up on different things. I loved the point that K brought up from the therapist comment that Ed’s indifference is a betrayal. I missed that good one.
FYC
Oh, Ed thought he was so damn innocent! Whiter than white mid-ranger.
Ha, she got him real good!
Madeline never really answers the therapist’s question about why she cheated, because Madeline doesn’t know what she is (a narcissist) or that Ed’s fuel is stale.
K, I thought Ed’s exchange with Nathan at the top of last night’s show was very telling. Mary Louise is utterly disgusting. Would like to hear your thoughts on that detective too.
FYC
Ha ha ha…that whole incident was VERY telling! The hostility between Ed and Nathan is palpable and Nathan was very aggressive at Annabella’s birthday party.
Mary Louise is smooth and clearly in control. I absolutely hate her!
The detective has issues. It is very clear that Perry attacked his wife and people have the right to use force to defend themselves or protect others. Sometimes, I think Law Enforcement wants us to lie down, allow ourselves to be raped and then stabbed to death. God forbid you fight back. You will be prosecuted and jailed.
Bonnie’s appearance at the Police Station is baffling. What a mess!
I’m going to lose my mind watching this show.
K, you think that Madeline is a narcissist? I have always been puzzled with some of the things that she did. Like how she treated both Ed and the guy that she had an affair with. But how about when she stopped the car and cried after Jane told her that she was raped? I have also thought that her jealousy of Bonnie is so amazingly immature although I understood her anger over Bonnie taking her daughter to Planned Parenthood without her consent. Although also, legally here in California, Bonnie is under no obligation to inform Madeline because minors can go to Planned Parenthood without their parent’s consent or knowledge and Bonnie just gave the daughter a ride, I thought that if she really was an empath she should have at least gave Madeline a courtesy call. If I was Bonnie I would actually refuse her and tell her that it’s something that she should do with her parents. My stepdaughters tried to used me for triangulation like that but I have always been conscientious of their mom and deferred to her or refused to be a part of it. That is another reason why I thought Bonnie is either a narc or a Co-D who couldn’t say No to her stepdaughter. Oh sorry my comment went all over the place. Back to Madeline, what’s your latest guess, is she a narc or an empath?
MommyPino
My latest guess: Maddie is either a MMRN or LMRN. Bonnie is still a mystery.
When Madeline cried re: the rape, that was cognitive empathy and the mid-range facade in action. I have a female MMRN that sometimes cries in front of me. It’s a brilliant manipulation (facade and pity play). Look at me; I am a kind and caring person; be my friend/appliance (and give me fuel).
If Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride to Planned ParentHood and wanted the trip kept secret from her mother then Bonnie is obligated to honor Abigail’s wishes. Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.
As an empath, I wouldn’t be concerned with who took my daughter to Planned Parenthood, as long as it was my daughter’s choice to do so. Madeline is abusive so I am not surprised that Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride and forcing a child to go to Planned Parenthood with an abusive parent is child abuse and I would never do that to a child. Traumatizing a child like that is completely unethical and abhorrent. I protected a narcissistic child from her narcissistic mother because the NPD child needed help. The mother was totally irrelevant.
Abusive parents have no rights. The abused child’s rights matter and Bonnie did the right thing.
I don’t think Madeline stopping the car to cry was cognitive empathy or facade. She was alone.
WokeAF
S1:E3
Madeline pulling over in her car and crying alone is perceived by the audience as genuine compassion, sadness and caring for Jane, however, those tears are for herself. Mid-range narcissists cry the most, especially the MMRN, and that is what I think Maddie is.
Hi K, I interpreted the stopping of the car and crying as genuine like WokeAF. But we will see how HG interprets the whole Madeline thing. She is very confusing to me. I think that I have posted some observations where she might be a narc or a SE and I would love a clarification from HG because that will help me with my own problems with why it’s hard for me to understand what a SE really is.
MommyPino
I think Madeline is a Dirty Angel MMRN. She has a fantastic facade; she is involved in school events and the theater and she has deployed fury (cold), pity plays and she cries.
I’m seeing Mary Louise more along the dirty angel lines
K, “Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.”
I agree.
MB
Correct, an absolute betrayal of trust.
K and MB, I have a really tough time with the Planned Parenthood thing. I would never want anybody else to take my daughter to Planned Parenthood, especially without my permission. I have a completely different perspective on who is abusive. I think that supporting a child (I assume she is under 18) to auction her virginity off is abusive and much more harmful than a parent who cares and wants to be involved when it comes to their daughter’s reproductive health and choices as a child. This is a Western culture or perspective that I still have a very difficult time accepting. A doctor operating on a child’s bunion needs a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery procedure doesn’t and can be taken, encouraged or coerced by people who doesn’t necessarily love them or care about them. It is something that is very difficult for me personally. I don’t know, does that make me a narc? All that I know is that I hope that nobody tests me on that or I will definitely unleash whatever narcissistic fury I might have.
MommyPino
Ha ha ha….you are not a narc, however, there are many abusive parents out there and they have absolutely no say in their child’s sex life or reproductive rights. The control belongs to the child not the abusive parent.
If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult. Maddie is abusive and that is why Abby is living with her dad and Bonnie. Also, Nathan is Abby’s dad, too. Abby can go to her father if she chooses but she chose the safest person she knew; Bonnie.
Teenagers have the right to control their own bodies and get birth control and they should be allowed to get abortions without parental consent.
Also, keep in mind NPD parents do not love their children so it would be abusive and coercive to involve them.
MP and K, this is a prime example of a difference in perspectives. Perspective is driven by so many factors. A lot of moving parts in there to consider. It’s very interesting to observe.
MB
Different perspectives make you think and I like that.
I love that therapist!
Twisted Heart
She’s very upfront and I like her a lot.
K and MP the thing that sways me the most away from empath is the way she treats her daughter. She just tells her what to do without real tools for autonomous decision making.
nunya biz
Madeline is controlling and provocative. She was adamant that Abby was going to go to college. If Abby doesn’t want to go, then that is her choice. She may even change her mind in the next couple of years.
But Maddie lives in the now and it’s all about control and fuel.
NunyaBiz, great point. That would probably sway me more than the Planned Parenthood outrage. I think that her daughter is screaming for attention from her, just like her husband. I would be nuts to find out that my daughter wants to auction her virginity off, I would be disappointed if she doesn’t want to go to college but the college thing is still her choice. I will try to explain my point of view to her and hopefully it will be enough to change her mind. If it’s not, I will have to accept the fact that she has her own life. But the suctioning the virginity off is non negotiable to me. I will most likely find some way to stop it, by hook or by crook, even the possibility of using legal means. It is something that I believe she will regret and as a child it is my job to protect her.
K, coming into season 2 I’m starting to see more MMR, why doesn’t she care about Bonnie? And the college thing in S2E1 is pretty lame on her part. And I’m starting to see Bonnie as more super. If I was her I’d be mad Madeline lied to the cops first too, that made sense to me. Like she took the choice away and being unable to talk to my husband about it for that reason would really piss me off, that’s stuff where I feel like being honest is the only way out, I mostly hate “lies of morality” it’s a trap usually because choices are always removed no matter what route is taken. The anger stuff I most related to so far was when Jane pushed Renata at the school and when Bonnie pushed Perry. I’ll see if I change my mind about MMM again.
Ha, I have to tell MP that so far Mary Louise has some similarities to my mother in law. God, ha, you should see some of the appearance similarities. Passive aggressive, I thought ML was funny in the realtor office with Madeline with the trickity tricky double down trick.
nunya biz
Madeline dislikes Bonnie, because she is seen as eroding her parental control, and Maddie is jealous of Bonnie’s relationship with both Nathan and Abby; competition. The college situation was nuts. Maddie was like a pit bull.
It’s very common for narcissists to rewrite the story, even to the police, that’s control. They need to control the story line and everyone’s role in it so they take over like a steamroller but they won’t take accountability for anything. I understand the defensive behaviour on both sides.
Mary Louise is as cool as a cucumber! Passive aggressive to the nth degree!
I saw that as Mmm being salty about her history was Nathan bc he’s a narc , or just a jerk- and basically abandoned his kid then jumps in to play Super Dad suddenly . The resentment at Bonnie is bc he’s in the golden period w her still, or at least matured enough to be a spouse and father- and Mmm and Abby never got that treatment.
If my teen suddenly was confiding in her narcissistic fathers younger spouse and getting birth control etc- I’d be very hurt too. Angry even.
WokeAF
Put yourself in your teenaged daughter’s shoes and look at form her perspective. The anger and hurt usually goes away after you do that.
And parents should ask themselves: Why didn’t s(he) trust me or feel comfortable talking to me about sex? As parent’s do we send mixed messages or are we uncomfortable talking about sex to our children.
There are myriad reasons why children don’t talk to their parents about birth control. It’s not about the parent; it is about the child. Parents are irrelevant.
Don’t be condescending. As if an empath doesn’t put herself in their children’s shoes lmao GTFOH
Dude the hurt and anger DID go away for MMM , and quite quickly . As a super , her narc traits would be much higher anyhow . She asked for a courtesy call .
Have you ever co parented w a narc?
Or a highly narc-y person?
It’s maddening . ESPECIALLY when they show up outta nowhere after years and want to play Super dad. Super step mom. After you’ve put the years in as the ONLY parent thru ups and downs for theiR ENTIRE LIFE (for Madeline)
Yes it’s all about the kids of COURSE and MMM comes to that conclusion quickly and does her very best to let her girl go – give her space – go live w Sudden Super Dad and half his age Super Step Mom – is ok about the birth control , does what’s best for the kid.
She has a human emotional reaction but she DOES reflect on things.
WokeAF
Yes, I have co-parented with an ULN and his MMRN wife.
Children have the right to get birth control WITHOUT their parents knowledge, permission or a courtesy call. Period. And it the parent doesn’t like it, too bad.
Yes, I get that, I agree .
My only point is that a well meaning parent can fuck up , esp in this (MM’s) situation , without them being a narcissist. That’s all
Even tho you and so agree on this
You CAN see that this is an OPINION. Right?
As empaths, we must remember to keep our narcissistic trait of superiority in check.
Right-fighters are blinded by this.
Bc we have knowledge on narcs and such,it’s easy to get a boost from adamantly sharing our knowledge in the name of justice and educating others.
I do it too – and have to check myself bc it annoys the fuck outta me when others do it to me so – yeah , just sayin
WokeAF
Doctor-patient confidentiality applies to minors and teenagers can be seen by their pediatricians, without their parents present, to discuss and receive birth control and this also applies in the case of attorney-client privilege.
I recognize children as whole objects who have rights, feelings, and needs just like I do and I respect their rights.
When warranted, my sense of superiority comes to the fore and, to be honest, I thoroughly enjoy it.
K, it is something that I personally find conflicting. My husband can not operate on a child’s bunion without a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery without the parent’s knowledge. What if the abortion ends up with complications? Hopefully they will never encounter a Dr. Gosnell. Abortion is not always a safe procedure.
MommyPino
The vast majority of abortions that are performed in the US are safe.
My girlfriend got pregnant, when we were in high school, and both her parents were abusive LMRNs and she wanted an abortion. She didn’t know what to do, so she hid her pregnancy. By the time she asked me for help, she was five months along. I got her a fake ID, helped her schedule the appointment, pretended I was her mother and called her in sick for school, while another friend drove her to and from the appointments.
It was a two day procedure that could have been avoided had she had access to birth control or a first trimester abortion.
Yeah totally.
Out of curiousity, are you a super empath?
WokeAF
Standard Empath, Carrier (Cadre). There are 62 narcissists in my family (mostly lessers) and I grew up with roughly half the total and my twin brother is a narcissist. It was a very abusive environment. Mostly, I focused on survival.
Wow, K.
You’re a hero.
cb
Ha ha ha….thank you! It was like living in a loony bin.
Good god
Amazing you survived
That’s horrific
I’m a magnet standard
So learning what the others here are helps me understand the different cadres
I’d have pegged you as a saviour, so now I’m confused. But! Onward and upward ! Lol
WokeAF
It was horrific and I don’t miss any of them. We can have elements from the other cadres and schools. I agree; it can be very confusing.
I have made a note of your School and Cadre to help me understand, too. NarcAngel is a Saviour Super Empath if that helps.
K
I have been confirmed as a Super Empath by HG. The Saviour part has not been confirmed -that was only my feeling (and not a good one) after reading that article. I must consult further on that.
NarcAngel
Oops! Noted and thanks for letting me know. Ha ha ha…I don’t want to spread rumors on narcsite.
For example on my point about MMM
-when my daughter was 17 she cane to me to get her on birth control and I did it immediately. I also gave her a quick refresher talk on std’s, lots of hugs and let her know to come to me for anything else. Of course, she was with a lovely boyfriend who’s she’s still with at age 22 – and still not pregnant – and college educated.
I had her at 22 with no college education. So I get where MMM is coming from on that front also.
Now, had she gone to her absent narcissistic fathers new 20 something yr old girlfriend to get birth control because she wanted to auction off her virginity – I MIGHT HAVE sone kinda feelings about that.
Remember, in the end, MMM just requested a courtesy call on big issues
And supported Abby going to love with her dad – said she was a mature intelligent girl and bound maths her own decisions it something like that. She also backed off on the college thing.
She defin was being too pushy on her daughter, but it came from a place of love and protection .not narcissism .
–
WokeAF
You are a fantastic mother. Safe, nonjudgmental, loving, caring, decent and you didn’t try to talk your daughter out of it (not controlling). You supported your daughter and allowed her to have control over her body. I wish all mothers were like you.
But you are looking at it from your POV. Try looking at it from Abby’s POV.
Teenagers will instinctively go to whomever they think is safe and Abby clearly thought Bonnie was the safest person. Both Madeline and Nathan are NPDed and neither of them are capable of love and Maddie is abusive and controlling, which is exactly why Abby left her mother’s home.
Abby has the right to get BC without her mother’s knowledge/permission and Bonnie is obligated to honor Abby’s rights to do.
Instead of putting herself in Abby’s shoes, Maddie felt a lack of control/wounding and lashed out at Bonnie for fuel and to assert control and superiority. (Bonnie took the heat; Nathan was a coward who conveniently stayed out of it and he never stuck up for Bonnie)
Abusive parents don’t have rights or get courtesy calls. They are irrelevant and should be prosecuted and sent to prison for child abuse.
Ok . I think we generally agree on parenting but we just seeing differently when it comes to MMM
Certainly a leaning experience, this homework!
I look forward to HG’s answers .
WokeAF
Ha ha ha….I am looking forward to HG’s answers, too, and, although we disagree about MMM, it’s fun trying to figure everyone out.
I think you are right, K. The police thing might seal my vote.
So Madeline started the lies to the police about Perry’s death? I have not seen that episode. Why did Bonnie allow it if she is a SE though? Why didn’t she correct Madeline right there? This is just me asking as I have not seen it and I’m trying to understand. This is one of the reasons I voted that Bonnie is a Co D because I thought that if honesty is very important to me I would have not have been a part of the false story to the police and then feel guilty about it. I would have told the police what really happened right there. Of course now I realize that that is not what a Co D is because a Co D is someone addicted to a dynamic with a narcissist in a very masochistic way. Lying to the police about what she did is a major boundary violation and I don’t understand why a SE would allow that.
MP, I’m not sure, I can only express my opinion and perceptions on it, but I understand your reaction about those sexual choice things to be an emotional response, out of fear and love. That makes sense to me because we can feel pain about our children getting outside influence that might not be what’s best. But the truth is your children are influenced by you up until that point and so may never need to look outside the home in those areas.
Or they might.
But the way I see it is that what scares me all to death is that my job is primarily to teach my kids to make choices without me BEFORE they move out of the house. I think your kids are much younger than mine, so your perspective might be different. I’m feeling a major time crunch on this issue. I have literally 3 more years to teach my son how to make adult decisions on his own. I am terrified if I did it well enough or not. I will still be able to help him after that IF/WHEN HE LETS ME. And if he doesn’t move out of state or to fucking mars for all the say I have. My daughter I have six years. So when I talk to her about sex I talk to her about making sure she has an authentic connection with someone. I point at other kids playing who’s who’s boyfriend/girlfriend or girlfriend/girlfriend (yes they are doing that in sixth grade) and asking her if it looks like fake “practice’ to her. I don’t tell her when to do it, how or who with. I tell her what to observe and to think about how she feels about it. I don’t think the rest is up to me 100% so I mostly explain and pray.
The law says they can walk into PP and get birth control in most places whether I like it or not provided they have a ride. Why? Because kids having kids. And if she’s old enough to have sex and get pregnant, she’s old enough to utilize the laws regarding abortion, that’s how biology works. I am not allowed to make that choice for her, though I can make a miserable as hell time trying. I don’t want to go there, so I just keep talking. And if you keep talking when they’re twelve, they might actually have some ok ideas in their head when they are 16. But like I said, I feel my primary role is to teach her how to choose, not what to choose.
NB, I have a different parenting style. It’s very important for me to lay the foundation for their values and I want to make it very strong in a way that they would choose to embrace those values as their own. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s considered by some as very narcissistic parenting. There are some things that I want them to hold very sacred to their very essence. There are things that I believe to be infinitely true. I didn’t see the special project as a teenage drama. If it is my kid, things like that would concern me very much. Mostly it would concern me that they would come up with such an idea and think that it is feasible in the slightest. I don’t want other people encroaching on my parenting of my child. I would hate for my kids to go to someone else instead of me for things like that. I don’t believe that anybody else care about them and love them as much as me and my husband. Of course I plan on establishing such a strong relationship with them that they would naturally choose to confide in me for important things like that instead of other people. But I’m also aware that there are things and influences that are outside of our control and doesn’t serve their best interests and I am fearful of that. It is a chance that I can minimize but will never be able to eliminate. Well anyways my kids are just babies, 2 yr old daughter and 5 yr old boy so I still have plenty of time to prepare. Although right now I don’t feel that I should talk about sex with them yet. They are so pure and innocent right now and I love this stage. Right now I’m just modeling respectful and wholesome loving kisses and hugs with them a lot.
Also NunyaBiz, I think that you and I are coming from different perspectives on Planned Parenthood and it is affecting our responses. It is something that I respect. I am personally not a fan of that outfit for a lot of reasons not related to HG’s blog so I will just refrain from writing them. The thought of my minor child having sex is very difficult for me. Also I grew up in a country where parents have much more control over their kids makes me fearful of my new environment and parenting in this culture that I didn’t grow up in. I grew up in a very family oriented culture and parents are very much respected and deferred to by the children. It is one of those things that I don’t see anything wrong with except in cases of narcissistic parenting. It’s something that I am having a hard time shedding off and probably also very unwilling to let go of.
Oh, and MP as far as the show…
I didn’t think Bonnie supported the auction at all. She just knew that it was a normal teenage drama issue and she wasn’t informed enough to think properly about it. So she stayed calm and didn’t control her, she explained a logical reason why it wouldn’t work without shaming her. I thought it was really good. Honestly I probably just would have puked like Madeline. That was one of the best scenes.
And btw, regarding the first time sex issue, if my daughter does end up with the wrong kind of boy and he’s mean to her you have to agree to come bail me out of jail, ok.
: )
I didn’t indicate my political perspectives on planned parenthood at all, only what is legal. I also thought M’s daughter’s project was misguided and would talk to her about it for a year because she is confused. I also don’t want anyone encroaching on my parenting either, I really would lose my mind and I’ve said it many times on the blog. I am extremely selfish in that way and it is ironically one of the reasons I don’t get a divorce even though I refuse sex (for now). And I won’t as long as the decision is mine, not all decisions are mine, which is where the subject gets hairy and what the discussion is about.
I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong. But the difference in how we hear others speak was actually what I was interested in when I brought it up. It’s been interesting to see everyone perceive each character in completely different ways while watching the same thing.
Nunya Biz
It is interesting isn’t it? So many different interpretations while looking at the same thing as you say. It’s no wonder then that we don’t always hear or see things the same with each other here. I think it highlights the differences between the empath schools and cadres.
NarcAngel
Absolutely correct.
HG, this has been a brilliant exercise in the demonstration of perspective. We talk about it on the blog often, but with the BLL polls, we see it in action.
NunyaBiz, “I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong.”. Well that’s probably because I wasn’t doing a very good job trying to understand you better. I think I may have been more on the selfish side expressing how I feel or what I believe even though it may not have matched what you wrote. I apologize for that. I made an assumption regarding the Planned Parenthood. But I also wanted to express where I was coming from which I think strongly influenced how I perceived that scene in the movie. I was trying to say that my personal bias regarding that outfit may have made my reaction towards Bonnie stronger and why I related to Madeline more. I do agree that it is interesting how empaths come in all various colors even though we share the main traits. And it is evident in our comments and perspectives.
“If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult.”
That is the thing I was addressing with my comment, I didn’t see Bonnie support the decision at all, if I recall she was the only one who stopped it. The decision to do the project was made by an adult not even related to her who was raised almost entirely by someone else to make such a misguided decision. She stopped it even though she didn’t have any responsibility to do so.
I thiiiiink I am voting M as a narcissist now, but I’m still not sure about Ed. And I was putting Nathan as a narcissistic normal, but I’m still on the fence about that one too. Like WokeAF is saying, I’d attributed some of M’s behavior to having been disappointed by Nathan being a narcissist and screwing them over, and that would be very disappointing because I would feel loss for myself and my daughter. Also, I relate to just being misguided on the whole as to the point of everything in life and really my mind’s only gotten better sorted to be less narcissistic in some areas by reading HG, though I think I have strong empathy and always have- I can’t quite figure out how to discern the difference, so my questions are in that area.
Yes, NA, it is wild. It’s kind of what I was looking to uncover because I feel like a lot of life is walking through, navigating and responding to these different perspectives. Sometimes while trying to protect self or someone else. I can’t always sort it.
MP, I like the MM character, and relate to some of her for sure. I really would have wanted to puke my way through that dinner.
I wish i was Zoe Kravitz in real life. My husband lately likes to joke gaslight me, which i actually sometimes find amusing in between cussing him and he very seriously told me that Bonnie was the character hes most similar too.
As if he has any groove.
NunyaBiz, Actually to be honest I skipped a lot of the scenes to be able to finish all of the aired episodes before my trip so I may have missed some of the important scenes. I thought that the daughter was in high school, I may have skipped the part that said she is in college. When I come home I will have to rewatch it, especially go back to all of the Celeste and Perry’s sex scenes that I fast forwarded 😜. I didn’t recall Bonnie stopping the special project, I thought that she seemed indifferent but I do credit her for informing the dad. If it was me I would have done the same thing as I think that it is important for the parents to know but I would never say anything that might give the appearance to the daughter that I see anything positive about it like when Bonnie said at the dinner that it’s for a good cause. Madeline puking was indeed funny! The whole dinner was weird not just because of the special project but the whole thing about it.
I think that reading different perspectives on the planned Parenthood issue is very helpful to me. Before this I think if my SD would ask me to take her there I would just decline and tell her that it’s something that would be better for her to do with her parents just because if I was in her parent’s shoes I would hope that the same consideration would be done for me even though I know that the child has a legal right to go there. However after reading about the other point of view, I would now ask the child first why she chose to ask me and not her parent and if I find out that there is real abuse I will consider taking her but if it’s just rebellion I would still decline and advise that it is something best done with her parents.
It’s funny that your husband thinks he’s like Bonnie. I do remember my MRE sister used to relate to the nicest characters in movies even though she was definitely far from the character’s traits. They really have a skewed perception of themselves. Especially if they are Mid-Rangers I think.
I don’t know, I’m on the fence again.
But K, I can say that I don’t agree with the concept of Maddie’s character going to prison for child abuse. Defo “no” for me.
P.S.
nunya biz
You don’t have to agree with me at all and, in some ways, I am on the fence, too. It isn’t feasible to remove all children from their abusive homes but how much child abuse do we accept as a society.
Do we allow emotional violence but punish those who sexually/physically abuse children. It is a conundrum. Also, EV creates NPD children. It’s a mess.
Oh yes, K, well said about emotional violence. I hope you don’t mind me waffling all over your comments, I suppose I am focused on yours because I find them interesting and actually they are the most persuasive to me. I appreciate your patience with me I am like this frequently on some topics. I believe my uncertainty in a few areas is appealing to certain N’s probably : ).
But some areas I am certain.
But thank you for your response it helps me understand where you are coming from. I do like when you remark on my differing opinion because it actually helps me think more about it, so please do.
My pleasure nunya biz
And thank you! I don’t think you are waffling; I think you are making an effort to think it through and it’s ok the be conflicted/ambivalent; I go back and forth, too. We are trying to make sense of it all and different perspectives can influence that. Logic is persuasive and it won’t steer you wrong.
Self-doubt is one of our sins and that allows the narcissist to maintain their control over us.
As long as you don’t mind, I will continue to comment on your comments. Please feel free to disagree with me and you don’t have to sugar-coat anything. Be fearless, speak up and don’t apologize.
I have bucket loads of patience (usually) because I spent a lifetime dealing with narcissists and I patiently tried to figure them out to no avail.
You are right, MP, the wrong person or boy can be persuasive, scares me. I find it difficult to manage balance with social media, messaging and sheltering, it is a challenge.
I really hope she looks to me as a trustworthy guide. My boss has a very good relationship with her daughter, it heartens me.
Ugh…this show is killing me. I give up!
NA I had you pegged as a magnet or carrier. At the time of my consultation with HG, my saviour tendencies are well in check- I used to jump in wearing the cape often as a younger woman- but age and wisdom tuned that right down. I also played the role of carrier with my kids dad to a degree in my younger years.
Since my forties, I’ve settled comfortably into my dominant cadre of magnet, with any carrier tendencies only applicable to my role as single mom.
As far as I can figure myself out at least.
WokeAF
That may well be the case. It’s hard to peg it down because you can identify with more than one, but one will be predominant. I think it is helpful to know so you can apply the information given better, to recognize how you are identified by Ns, and why you react/respond differently than other empaths might to certain things (like conversations here for one). An unbiased consultation with HG to confirm my cadre is necessary.
Ready when you are NA.
Ha ha ha …..that was funny!
Lol conversations here 😂
If this turns out to be correct I am literally going to have to watch the entire set again
Fuck I’m Probably going to have to anyway…
WokeAF
I know the feeling. I have been re-watching the scenes, too.
K
Pls forgive this comment placed here
I am all the fuck over this thread 😆
Ok , you said
“however, mommypino repeatedly shut it down by ignoring my comments. That’s arrogance and lack of empathy. She made it all about herself and played the victim and you bought into it.
MommyPino says:
July 24, 2019 at 15:26
Hi WokeAF,
I didn’t bother to respond to K’s blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. (wow!)
DUDE. Would YOU- an empath – want to listen to another empath literally list all your narc traits, when ur ET is high bc you’ve perceived an attack against you (remember, we’re all victims of narcissistic abuse here ) ?? 😆
I didn’t enjoy it! And I wasn’t even terribly in my ET! Lol
WokeAF
If you lie and get called on it, then you should admit you were lying. Period.
K, yes, glad you have bucket loads of patience : )
I am glad you respond, sometimes your response changes my mind!
You mentioned that BLL doesn’t adequately represent the damage, violence, etc.. that makes sense in terms of explaining what you are seeing in the characters then. Maybe like it is a “MMR Light” version, and I that is probably what I am struggling with, what with everything being fictional. Thank you for explaining.
I saw you had said something about CBT and parenting classes. It got me thinking. I found CBT very helpful for altering some habitual and reactive behaviors. I wonder if it is beneficial for NPD people. My guess is it would be but would maybe need to be more intensive. HG says he has found some benefit in pro-social behaviors through therapy I think. It is amazing to me when something works, even a little. Regular talk therapy has never helped me. Maybe let me discuss and get some things out, but that’s it. Usually I find therapists to be at least somewhat narcissistic, so I usually feel they are telling me things they would never tell themselves (i.e. objectifying me, infantalizing me, patronizing, etc…)
CBT takes that aspect of things out of it, it is behavior focused. I think if my mother had any input or assistance it could have helped me, but the wrong assistance would do nothing or exacerbate things. But god, just simple repeated statements encouraging cognitive empathy, like “does your child regularly feel bad?” as a point of thought might be helpful. Like, hello, your child feeling bad is not an endgoal in itself because they “deserve” it.
For the MMR parents I’ve seen around (I have known several), I don’t see anything prosecutable *for the most part*. What I mostly see is confusing circle talk at their kids about values. Contradictory statements. Encouraging/modeling attention seeking behaviors, modeling their own world view of triangulation and scapegoating, etc… Trying to encourage dominance over introspection. And of course rule by negative reinforcement often times. One of the mothers has absolutely no idea what she is and I thought she had asperger’s for years. She seems to unconsciously favor one child over the other and bad mouths the father who finally got out. I’ve never known her at all to act violently and is otherwise a “Pillar of Good Behavior”. I think her husband punched a hole in the wall once though before he left.
NunyaBiz and K, I do agree that the verbal abuse can affect the child very much and now that it was brought up, there might be those special reasons where I would consider helping the child without he parent’s knowledge. But I would have to investigate first and ask questions before I would get myself involved in something that in my opinion is sacred or important enough that is best experienced by the child with the parent/s. For example my mom used to call me a whore whenever I was not compliant or disagreed with her and she made me feel guilty or shamed whenever she’s able to tell that I have a crush on someone saying that I wanted to have sex already. I had what I now have think was a yeast infection when I was in high school and I think that I may have gotten it from the filthy outhouse bathroom that we shared with other people when we lived in the slums. At that time I didn’t know what it was that I had and was scared that it may be something that would permanently damage my ability to get pregnant. I hid it from my mom because I was worried that she would accuse me of having sex and being a whore so I just prayed for it to go away. It eventually did but it was really scary and I wish that I had someone to guide and help me through that at that time since my own parent was not mentally capable of that. But in cases where there is no abuse and the parents do love the child I would decline. And even if there is abuse, if I was asked to take a child to have an abortion I would decline because of my personal beliefs and I would even give my perspective on abortion and give other options. They have a right to get birth control and abortion but I also have the right to decline if something is against my own values. It is also possible that a child with loving parents who is in love with someone who is a bad influence and wants them to have sex will ask someone else to take them to have birth controls without their parent’s knowledge so that she or he can have sex without their parents’ knowledge. The problem with that is that birth control doesn’t always work, there’s a lot of user error situations especially if the person using it is an immature child. It can also be like a Pandora’s box opening up all kinds of risks for them once they are sexually active and secretive about it.
MommyPino
I understand where you, WokeAF and NunyaBiz are coming from and, in an ideal world, all children would feel safe enough to go to their parents to discuss BC and sex.
But the world isn’t ideal and you gave us a good example of that re: your yeast infection and how your mother would react to it.
Stick to your beliefs and values because they are important to you, but, ultimately, this was about what Abby wanted and everyone else was irrelevant. Abby is a separate being, who can make her own choices, and Bonnie was obligated to respect Abby’s wishes.
Thank you K. But I disagree. Bonnie is not obligated to take Abby to Planned Parenthood. We don’t lose our free agency to do what is authentic to us because we acknowledge another person’s legal rights.
MommyPino
When Abby asked Bonnie for a ride to PP, Bonnie agreed to take her, therefore, she is obligated to respect Abby’s wishes for privacy. Anything different would be a complete betrayal of trust.
The only individual that matters, in this scenario, is Abby; the parents are irrelevant.
Dude – you helped a friend get an abortion at FIVE MONTHS. Now we could go into the rights of THAT child (fetus)..which at that point had not only a heartbeat, but a brain that could process the pain of physical annihilation.
Was THAT child’s parent (your friend) perhaps irrelevant at that point?
It’s all perspective.
Can you not accept that you have a perspective , that differs from some other people’s?
MMM cannot seem to accept that HER perspective on how to parent is different from other ppl’s. Does that make her a narc?
WokeAF
Of course I can accept that my perspective is different from others and I certainly hope that others can accept my perspective, as well. Neither is wrong, just different.
I live in the US and Roe v Wade: The Constitutional Right to Access Safe, Legal Abortion was passed in 1973.
The pregnant teen was my friend (we were both under the age of 18); I was not friends or friendly with her abusive parents and I didn’t know the father of the baby very well, but he didn’t want the baby and vanished after she told him about the pregnancy.
The baby was killed with a saline solution, I think, then his head was crushed and he was dismembered and removed form her uterus piece by piece.
MMM’s controlling and abusive behaviour is what makes her a narcissist and that’s why Abby left. MMM only has herself to blame.
Abusive parents are completely irrelevant.
Ok this is really educational for me, thank you for explaining your perspective ,
And HG has determined you Standard, carrier cadre?
Im really studying the cadres of empaths
My pleasure WokeAF
I did ask if she would consider giving the baby up for adoption because she was so far along but she didn’t want to because she was afraid of her parents.
I am a Standard Empath Carrier and DEMB. If you search the schools you can go through the threads and this Poll may help you too.
https://narcsite.com/2019/01/18/poll-what-are-you/
Oh just to be clear:,I’m pro choice , I think – I mean I had an abortion and glad I did – would’ve been THREE kids with the baby daddy . Ugh. Three for him to abandon instead of two lol
I don’t have any morals that I’m aware of that aren’t totally fluid . I’m a DLS so that’s pretty obvious I guess
I’m pretty a-moral actually . Don’t subscribe to right or wrong other than my inner drives
I don’t subscribe to “shoulds” and was engaging bc I’m trying to decipher some things.
The differences between the schools and cadres etc
I appreciate the lively debate
K, Bonnie is also not obligated to not disclose to Abby’s parents that she took her to Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is legally obligated to not disclose information to the parents without the child’s consent but Bonnie or any person that takes the child do not have a legal obligation. Whether that would be a betrayal of trust is a matter of personal opinion. I don’t do black or white and always consider several other factors present. If the child has loving parents and the child is about to make a decision that needs to be guided by the people that know and love the child most, I will be able to rationalize that perceived betrayal as being done for the child’s best interest.
Also, some states still require permission from at least one parent for a child to have an abortion at Planned Parenthood. Although the show was set in Monterey, we base our discussion using California laws. And Abby didn’t get an abortion, she went there for birth control.
MommyPino
Correct, no one is legally obligated to inform Madeline, however, once Bonnie agreed to drive Abby, she had a moral obligation and a duty to protect Abby’s right to free agency and privacy, anything else would be unethical and an abuse of trust. It’s not in the child’s best interest to be betrayed and there’s always the possibility of detrimental consequences.
A minor can petition a judge, if she does not want to get parental permission (judicial bypass).
Loving parents are completely irrelevant. They have absolutely no say, no rights and they do not matter. In this scenario, the only person that mattered was Abby.
where can we access this list of moral obligations?
Is it only USA or global? If global, if the moral obligation conflicts with that country’s law, what do we do then ?
WokeAF
Morality varies for each individual.
Imagine if you desperately needed help and confided in me, with the expectation of privacy, and then I ran around like an asshole telling someone about your secret and outing you, possibly putting you in danger, embarrassing you or making matters exponentially worse.
You probably wouldn’t like that, would you, and you certainly wouldn’t trust me anymore.
In my world, my friends can trust me with anything and they all know that. I am not a tattletale.
K
And THAT is why you are on my speed dial.
NarcAngel
Ha ha ha…damn skippy! I have several ideas in the works; it’s all covered and I will take it to the grave.
Proper legit diamond hard agree
cb
Woot woot!
Yes, agreed, re: with morality varying for each individual,
WokeAF
Ha ha ha….just in case, all your secrets are safe with me.
K ..secrets? What secrets? 😉
Thank you for that link
Hg had said that supers were rare, so I was wondering why there are so many supers
Gravitate to this site I imagine lol
My pleasure WokeAF!
Supers and Greaters are rare so I am thinking that Bonnie and Jane may be Standard Empaths.
Agreed I’ve got Jane also pegged as a standard but I have a weird feeling somethings coming up re her.
WokeAF
Exactly, I have to wait till the season is over to before I make my final votes on Bonnie, Jane and Gordon.
K, morality indeed varies for individuals. You might think I am a tattletale asshole. That is up to you. I would think that anyone who would take my child without my knowledge to Planned Parenthood is a moronic asshole. So there!
Mommypino, (& anyone else who enjoys deep thoughts & comedy)
on the topic of rights, morals, etc; This link takes you to a 4 minute bit by the legendary George Carlin. It impacted me so greatly as a young adult – never saw life the same again. Enjoy 😉
https://youtu.be/m9-R8T1SuG4
WokeAF
Thanks for the clip. I forgot how much he provoked thought while making me laugh. Rights are made up sums it up perfectly.
NA yup , rights are made up, so are morals, opinions, right, wrong, shoulds, constitutions and laws.
It’s all only a momentary sensation of inclination.
Or a sensation of inclination that is so repetitive that it’s experienced as continuous , by a majority of people, and so is therefore assumed to be “correct” and made into an idea , right, law, moral expectation etc and even this is so fluid it changes every few years.
That’s why when someone says they “have a right to…” I say, oh ya? Show me this right. Besides a thought in the head. Or “you should ..” I’m like yeah? By who’s authority? Morals? The LAW?! What a joke.
At least HG KNOWS he has a facade.
NA- George Carlin SO resembles my dad it’s eerie. Nails his type of humour and clarity- even looks a bit like him. I grew up with similar comedic rants on various everyday things. Kept my eyes open
WokeAF, I haven’t looked at the video as I am unsure if you are sending that to me to mock or make fun of my beliefs. I decided to play it safe just in case.
But I want to leave these questions and thoughts to you and to K and to anyone who has time because I can see that you might entertain other people’s thoughts. I think that anyone who is fair minded and not judgmental should be able to understand and at least respect where I am coming from even if they disagree. And you don’t need to answer them.
1. You said that you don’t subscribe to “shoulds” so I am thinking that you try to be open minded. Does this open mindedness extend also to people who unlike you are pro life?
3. When a pro life person is told that they have a moral obligation to do certain things (even though it is against their conscience) in spite of having no legal obligation to do so, wouldn’t that be imposing a “should” to that person?
4. Being someone who doesn’t subscribe to “shoulds” do you think that it’s fair to obligate someone with a different belief from yours to subscribe to a “should”?
5. Now to talk about one of the “should nots”. If Person A says that Person B should not or should never expose a secret that was entrusted to Person B, then isn’t Person A removing Person B’s right to use Person B’s own brain and judgement on what is appropriate for each unique situation?
6. What makes Person A the arbiter of what are the shoulds and should nots? And who appoints this arbiter? And who declares that Person A’s judgment or opinions should weigh more than Person B’s?
Regarding the taboo of ‘betraying someone’s trust’, like I have said in my previous post, I don’t do black and white. I don’t completely take away an option because there will be instances when those things are needed. Informing a parent is an option, and I have clarified that it is a last resort and will do if I have established that the parents are not abusive.
I would like to ask for those who believe that secrets should ALWAYS be protected,
a) What would you do if a 16 year old tells you that she is having sexual relations with an adult which is illegal (statutory rape). If you are a teacher, you have a legal obligation to inform the police. Would your moral obligation of NEVER divulging secrets go above your legal and professional obligation? If you decide to follow your legal obligation, would you consider yourself a tattletale asshole?
b). What if a 17 year old tells you a secret that he joined an internet cult and is about to participate in a mass suicide next week? Would you keep that secret or would you inform a parent that lives with the child to interfere with the planned suicide? Does that make you an asshole?
c). What if a 16 yr old wants to have abortion in California where there’s no need for parent notification tells you that as a secret and you Person A are pro choice. It is quite obvious that you will most likely not inform a parent.
d). What if same scenario except that you are Person B who is a pro life and decides to inform parents who are loving and not abusive because you believe that you are saving the life of the unborn baby and the teen from making a decision that she might regret. Does that make you an asshole? Who gets to define who is the asshole? Person A? So Person A has the right to decide what is right for Person B because somehow Person A’s opinions matter more? Person A says that it’s not about Person A or Person B, it’s about the teen mom. Well Person B believes that it’s also about the unborn baby. Does that not have any weight and should Person B’s beliefs be subordinate to Person A’s? What is the difference between this situation and informing the parents of a suicide threat or of their child being molested or having sexual relationships with an adult? Where does this ‘moral obligation’ to never divulge a secret ends and who gets to decide for everybody? Also take note that Person B didn’t violate any laws by informing a loving parent. Person B is not under the HIPAA Law because Person B is not the teen’s doctor or healthcare provider.
e). Another scenario, similar except that this is happening in Alabama where there is a need for a parent to be notified for the abortion. You are told a secret that a teen’s adult friend will pretend to be a parent and fake documents to be able to have abortion. Would you be an accomplice to this violation of law because your moral obligation is above the law? Again, so many possible different scenarios, who gets to decide what you should do? Does Person A have a hotline number that Person B can contact each time Person B has to make a decision what is ethical, moral, and right?
And moreover, the whole context of this discussion is about A CHILD. A child who is under 18 whom K said is perfectly capable of making her own decisions, and yet our society does NOT ALLOW them to make decisions on so majority of their lives. Our society in general doesn’t think that a child is capable in making these decisions yet, and yet K believes that a child is perfectly capable of making life decisions. A CHILD is NOT ALLOWED to: vote, enter contracts, but a car, enter a lease, drink alcohol, undergo other surgeries aside from abortion, go to certain places without their parents with them or their permission, etc. And yet K tells me, “ Teenagers are perfectly capable of making decisions on their own and they do not need their parents involved at all unless they want them involved. “. So if they are that capable then why are children not allowed to do all of these things without their parents’ supervision or permission or as guarantors? So again, I have a different opinion on the extent of a child’s capability than some people, why then is their opinion supposed to be above mine in terms of what I will do. Why am not allowed to act according to my own opinion? Why is there a necessity for name calling just because I choose to follow my own opinion and not the others’?
I don’t know about all of you but if I look back to my teen years if I undergo a major surgery like that I would have preferred my parent (if they are loving all the more) to be there for me and when I get home they will care for me and support me. It must be such a lonely feeling to secretly have an abortion and go home and everybody at home treats you the same because they had no clue what happened to you. And what if the child ends up with complications from the surgery, an infection or something was left inside and no one in the family knows that she underwent surgery? It is a huge decision and a huge experience. Nobody who is normal gets an abortion and forgets about it. Even for people who do not regret it and are thankful for doing it still never forgets that they had it done. It’s not as simple as buying a pair of shoes.
My philosophy in life is simple, I do what I believe is the best course of action based on how I believe it will affect the people involved. I don’t have a very tight set of shoulds and should nots. I have my core beliefs and they do affect my decisions heavily. But the decisions are always mine and I try to make them with the best intentions for the people involved. That’s how I live my life with no regrets. Abortion is not always the best answer. I know one person who regretted the abortion that she had done when she was an adult. And I know that she’s just one person, but I dare say that there are others. I’m glad that you don’t regret yours. But some people do. And that’s why I think that when somebody is thinking of doing it, I think that that person needs to think it through and better if with guidance. Especially if they are children. I’m not trying to convince anyone to agree with me because I don’t believe that my opinions are superior to anyone’s. And neither is anyone’s opinions superior than mine. They are opinions.
As you can see in this long comment that I wrote, I am treating this issue as a complicated matter that requires thoughtful considerations. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole and endangering the teen is an oversimplification and misrepresentation of my stand and what I said I would do. It was funny for many but it was unfair to me. I have said so many times that I would make sure that the parent is not abusive. Do my words have no value here at all once I have said my beliefs?
mommypino; I was definitely not mocking you. The video was just a bit of comedy . 😁 My answer to that rather long question list is : follow your own heart . I do, and I have no judgement on others choices. Not because I try to be non judgemental, but because I just don’t generally CARE what other ppl do especially if it’s not affecting me or my kids or our freedom. It doesn’t interest me. I honestly just don’t care.
I do have inclinations to stand up for the underdog, but I keep them in moderation .
And by all means send me a link to your fave preacher or whatever. I’m a fan of Jesus. He really took one for the team.
Mommypino – also, I generally am inclined to agree with your opinions , as far as my family/parenting. Like I said- I don’t listen to anyone that tells me what my “moral” obligation is. And I’d hit the roof if my kids narcissist absent fathers new 20 something stepmom took my kid to get birth control ESPECIALLY if it was just so she could auction off her virginity. Because I’m human and let myself have feelings. Then I likely afterwards would just request a memo if something big happens again (as MMM did)
I agree the kid should have access to birth control, abortion whatever , but I’d never deny her it, so- really no issue.
I don’t think anything particular or judge anyone here bc it’s an online forum and I have no vested interest in anyone’s beliefs, I barely have a vested interest in my own.
But for what it’s worth to you, i totes gelled with your general position on stuff and things 👍🏻😉
WokeAF,
Thank you for taking the time on my extremely long questionnaire. It might be one of the longest comments I’ve ever posted here. I know it’s too long so I said it’s ok to not answer but you still did, I appreciate it.
I think that’s it, as a mom, and probably a narcissistic mom, I want to be the one to take my daughter to get birth control. I want to be the one to have a talk with her about safe sex, love, boundaries, respect and relationships. I want to make sure that when she gets the BC, she’s not going to think that it is a free pass to do anything. Sometimes BC malfunction as well and a lot of times the users make errors in using it. I want her to be aware of possible consequences for different decisions. And also I want her to know that no matter how careful she is and how decent she is as a person, things can still go against her plans because that’s life. Sucky things happen to everyone. But I just want to be THERE with her. And I can understand you why you would get upset if your ex husband’s young wife does that. If I was you or Madeline, I would probably feel that that moment with my daughter was stolen from me. Maybe it’s ET but we are human and we are allowed to have emotions.
Haha thank you but I really don’t have a favorite preacher. I’m not very religious in terms of church but I’m staying Catholic because I love the artworks and architecture of their church era and buildings. But I love the Bible and like to read it alone. I do love Jesus lol. He really did take it for the team. 😂😂
Ok since you took the time to compose it, I’ll answer:
God what a long questionnaire
Ok here goes
1) I don’t try to be open minded. My disposition just generally seems to be that way. Yeah, pro lifers can do their thing. I don’t think I’d care unless I needed an abortion and couldn’t get one. But I’m 45 and have an IUD anyhow so, no issue really
3) I literally don’t understand this question but ima hazard a guess at what u meant and my answer is: the pro lifer has no moral obligation to do anything from my point of view (and we skipped number 2)
4)No . Everyone can do whatever they want as far as I’m concerned as long as it doesn’t affect me or my kids negatively
5) if I tell someone a secret and ask them not to share it and they do, I won’t tell that person a secret again but I don’t care what other ppl do in that situation
6) I don’t tell ppl what to do or not do. It’s their business . I don’t listen to ppl who tell me what I should or should not do. Unless I want their advice .———
a) I don’t know I’d have to see how I felt about it at the time
b) I’d tell the friggin POLICE and I don’t care if it makes me an asshole .
c) I live in Canada . Free abortions for all! I dont know what I’d do only bc , line —is the kid going with someone safe? Are they hitchhiking to get there? Will they just go missing on the abortion road trip? Hopefully that doesn’t happen to me bc I MIIIIGHT rat then out just cuz , if they disappeared and it came out I as the teacher knew of this I could be held accountable and fuck that
d) ok now you’ve completely lost me on this one, sorry
E) I’m so never going to Alabama
I don’t think you’re a tattletale or asshole anyhow.
WokeAF, I got braver and watched the clip. It wasn’t offensive like I was afraid of. I understand what he is saying and agree to him to an extent. Although I disagree with the way he presented his arguments sometimes and the point of view that he was coming from sometimes. I’m not a closed-minded self-righteous entitles religious person. I understand that people have opinions and like I said in my longer post just now, neither opinion is superior to anyone’s because they’re just opinions. And it doesn’t bother me that you all disagree with mine (as long as there’s respect) because I would still think that I’m correct and you’re all wrong because that is my opinion. If I think that my opinion is wrong then it wouldn’t be my opinion right? I disagree with his mockery of God giving rights. We all have free agency and even the Bible says, “He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” Jesus said that in Matthew. We are not entitled to fairness or equity or justice here on earth. I don’t believe in karma either. And when people who have wronged me encounters difficulties, I don’t gloat and say that they got their karma. I know that bad and good things happen to everybody. George Carlin was oversimplifying and misrepresenting a lot of what people who believe in God believes. Not all of us are ignorant. And not all atheists are smart or wise. I have never thought that rights come from God. I think that God gave us brains to figure out what is right and wrong and free agency to do what we believe to be good. That’s my belief.
Now shall I send you a link to a video of my favorite preacher? Just kidding! I don’t even have a favorite preacher. 😜
K, we have a totally different perspective, that’s all. And I’m not trying to convince you to change yours. I understand your perspective.
If a child comes to me for help to get an abortion or birth control and I decide to encourage the child to include at least a parent in the decision making, I believe that the parents are not abusive and it is for the child’s best interest. Things like that should be discussed as a FAMILY. I am not her family. I do care about people and have general love for fellow humans and real love for friends and relatives but I have to be honest, my love for them is not as strong or as deep as my love for my family. So to reverse that reality, my love and concern for a friend doesn’t even come close to how much my friend’s parent/s love and care about her. It is something that I strongly believe inside me that families should be strong and honored and be given autonomy and respect. I would never know a friend as much as a loving parent who raised her knows my friend. They will be the best people to discuss decisions like that to make sure that my friend doesn’t make irreversible actions because she didn’t get guidance from the people who knows her the best and understands her core as a person. Sometimes a child who was lovingly raised by parents would keep a secret like that from her parents because of fear of disappointing them only to find out that if they told their parents the truth their parents will accept their mistake and will move mountains to be there for them and help them. And most importantly we are talking about CHILDREN here. Oftentimes even adults need guidance, how much more a child? If a child comes to me for that and I declined to take her to Planned Parenthood and informa the parent/s, I would not do that unless I believe that based on the circumstances it is for the child’s best interest. The betrayal of trust is a last resort but it remains an option if that means I will save the child from a lifetime of regret.
And I understand that you say it is about the child and everybody else is irrelevant. But when a child asks me to do something, it also becomes to be about me. And I will never partake in what I believe to be a murder of an innocent baby. And this is not to judge anyone else who has partaken or done abortion. I respect the different outlooks. But for me I have my own outlook and belief and I will never compromise that to help someone else. In my opinion there are two children in this situation that must be considered so it’s not all about the pregnant child. But I don’t want to debate abortion since I think that it’s pointless to argue about it. We are all entitled to our own beliefs and principles. And I repeat that I don’t judge others who believe differently.
MommyPino
We have different perspectives and neither is wrong.
When I advocate for individuals, I have a duty of care and that means that I must protect and respect their rights for privacy.
Teenagers are perfectly capable of making decisions on their own and they do not need their parents involved at all unless they want them involved. They are separate individuals with thoughts, ideas, wants and needs that are independent of their parents.
Thank you K. We really do have different perspectives. And I’m happy that we have mutual respect. We will obviously do differently if faced in a similar circumstance but we both believe that we are acting for what is best for the teen.
My perspective is that these are huge decisions for anyone to make, moreover a child. It is best for these types of decisions to be made with guidance from people who has more experience, knowledge about life and who the child is as a person and cares deeply about the child. Going back to me when I had what I’m guessing to be a yeast infection (I’m sorry if I’m grossing people out), if I was more mature at that time, I would have asked for one of my teachers or aunts to help me see a doctor. I have never seen a doctor to tell me what it really was so for so many years I was worried and unsure if it was indeed yeast infection or chlamydia. I just based those guesses from the books that I have read. But for so many years I was worried that if it was chlamydia it may have affected my ability to get pregnant. So many years where I feared that I will never be a mom just because I didn’t see a doctor. It was a decision that I made in my teen years which was unwise. That is just one. Even adults make decisions that they regret. That is all for my point of view. I love you K and thanks for the discussion. 💕
K, I saw your other response to WokeAF and responded to it. I wanted to add more but I couldn’t find it anymore.
I think that it’s one thing to accept other people’s perspectives that are different from yours. But when you say that you accept it and at the same time call them names then it makes your acceptance nothing but lip service and hypocritical.
What WokeAF rhetorical question about moral obligations say is that morality does indeed vary per individual. Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced, you are imposing YOUR moral code upon me. And I respectfully declined each time politely expressing why I would do differently. But for you to say that you accept it and at the same time call names is very insulting and petty. We can do better than calling each other names. We can discuss in a respectful manner. But when I’m called a name I do respond. I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly.
MommyPino
You are imposing your moral code on Bonnie and judging her for it.
Abby has the right to get BC without Maddie’s consent or knowledge, Abby lives with her father and Bonnie and she asked Bonnie for a ride to PP. It really is that simple.
If my teen daughter had asked my ULN’s wife (she’s an MMRN) to take her to PP for BC or an abortion, I would not be mad at all because it was my daughter’s decision to make, not mine. I am irrelevant.
K, let’s just stick to our own opinions. Maybe I’ll just have to move to Alabama where it requires one parent’s permission for abortion. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that, kindly recognize that we are unique from each other. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales are culturally considered as good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful. Family is very tight knit here in the Philippines where I grew up. We have a special salutation to our elderly for respect, we place their hands on our forehead when we see them to ask for their blessings, we always defer and respect and don’t answer back to our older siblings. This actually made it difficult for me to deal with my EMMRN half sister as she was 20 yrs older than me and culturally, the way I was raised, I had to exercise as much patience on her. Of course that didn’t last very long. All that I am saying is you don’t have to agree with me but maybe understand that I am different and I actually love the culture from where I came from. People here are so nice to each other and families are so full of love and respect. I am seeing it now at my aunts’ houses as I visit them. Unless of course if the mom is a matrinarc like mine and yours. But the culture here is very different and probably that’s why it’s hard to understand me.
MommyPino
It’s just a clash of personalities and it was a great demonstration of the narcissistic trait of pride coming to the fore. You are imposing your morality (and culture) on Bonnie and I am defending Bonnie’s POV, that’s all.
1. Maybe I’ll just have to move to Alabama where it requires one parent’s permission for abortion (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement).
2. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that, (you are rewriting the script; Bonnie had a moral obligation to respect Abby’s right to privacy).
3.In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales (where did I write that the people from the Philippines are assholes and tattletales?)
4. good friends who are not ‘yes’ friends and will do what is necessary to stop their friend from doing something harmful (control, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy, entitlement; birth control isn’t harmful and Abby is entitled to use it).
5. Forcing a child to go to PP with a parent is tantamount to child abuse.
6. But when I’m called a name I do respond. I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly. (you rewrote my comment to WokeAF and then you unfairly judged those that you felt supported me).
K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way. I was saying that when you said that when somebody tells you a secret, you’re not going to turn around like an asshole and tell on them and possibly endangering them because you’re not a tattletale. I can’t remember the exact words but something like that. I was saying, that here in this country where I’m currently staying, that behavior of a friend who had good intentions is not frowned upon. I was pointing out how morals can be shaped by cultural upbringing. One of my friends from 2nd yr h.s. decided to run away with her boyfriend and she was 16. She was not abused at all, her family is loving but she was crazy about this guy who was a bad influence. My other friend knew where she was staying and tipped our friend’s mom where she was and her parents recovered her. They had a fight for a few years but their friendship recovered and she was thankful to our other friend whom she think saved her from being with that guy who was a loser. I probably would have done the same if I knew what was going on but at that time I was already in Manila and those friends were the ones I left in the province. I just have a very few permanent or fixed standard of behavior. I cannot say that divulging a secret is something that I will never do because there might be circumstances when it is needed. But I can say that I will never have sex or intimate relationships with the husbands or boyfriends or even ex boyfriends of my friends and relatives. It is something that in my personal feeling is almost like incest. I cannot say that I will never kill a human being but I can say that I will never murder an innocent person who is not threatening my life. I think that you are just relating to Bonnie and I’m relating to Madeline in that circumstance and so we don’t agree. I am very narcissistic with the way I raise my kids because I’m very involved and interested in them but I don’t shame them or abuse them. I do try to shape the way they see things though, I pick the books that I read to them, I pick the shows that they watch and I take them to church most Sundays if we didn’t oversleep. I want to be able to have control over the way they are growing up up to their 18th age but I try to keep them authentic with their own innate temperaments and interests. My son loves trains so I don’t force him to like dinosaurs instead, I’m actually very happy that at age five he already knows and decided for himself what he loves. He told me that he wanted to be president someday, it got me really excited and asked him to confirm, “president of the United States?” He said no in an irritated way. He said, “president of a train museum!” It made me happier. Because he’s already aiming for what genuinely makes him happy and not to impress me or anyone. But I do admit that I have narcissistic traits but I think we all do. I think that it’s part of being human.
MommyPino
Your wrote:
1. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
2. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me
You rewrote my comment to WokeAF, making it all about you, projecting your anger and painting yourself, and the people from the Philippines, as the victims (projection, blame shift, conversational derailment, lack of empathy, manipulation).
You have poor boundary recognition and that’s why you take things too personally.
You also wrote (to me):
1. You don’t have the right to tell people what their moral obligations are.
2. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
The PP scenario was about Abby, however, you keep making it all about yourself by imposing your moral views (and culture) on Bonnie (hypocritical and contradictory behavior, projection, poor boundary recognition, lack of empathy).
Abby has a right to acquire BC without Madeline’s knowledge or consent and, once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy.
It’s not about you; it’s about Abby. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in another person’s shoes and see things from their POV. But you are too busy deflecting with irrelevancies to do so.
K , you wrote to Mommypino “Abby has a right to acquire BC without Madeline’s knowledge or consent and, once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy.”
Um, says WHO?
Not the law.
Not MY “morals”, not Mommypino’s “morals” or culture.
Also there a language barrier here I think.
Also it’s difficult sometimes to decipher what comment is meant for who.
Mommypino: don’t get worried about accusations about narcissistic traits. I think it’s a bit of projection.
WokeAF
Wrong. There are no accusations of narcissistic traits. Here’s a nifty thought: stick to the facts instead of twisting the truth.
Again, Abby has the legal right to acquire and use BC without her parents knowledge or consent.
“Can I get birth control without anyone finding out?
Yes. You do not need permission from a parent or guardian to get birth control. In fact, it is unethical and illegal for clinic workers or health care providers to tell your parents/guardians you were even at the clinic. The agreement to keep your visit private is called a confidentiality agreement.
http://teenhealthsource.com/birthcontrol/birth-control/“
K: re bc; In the states You can get bc . In some countries
You’re imposing your cultural norm and law as “the way it is”
But then again abortion was legal in the states until recently too, isn’t that illegal in some states now? Interesting how cultural norms can change . Laws. Rights. Etc
AAaaanyhooooo
Re : me sticking to the facts. I am. I’m asking questions of the facts you’re presenting
Such as , WHO SAID Bonnie has a
moral obligation to not be a “tattletale” and keep Abby’s secret once she took her to get bc?
You haven’t answered that yet,
I’d love to hear your answer. What is it?
I know you have it in you, bc you utilize both opinion AND fact as seen below;
“once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy.””
(Opinion)
“Bonnie is NOT required inform anyone she was giving Abby a ride. PERIOD.”
(Fact)
Speaking of facts,
You write
“mommypino is imposing her morality and cultural upbringing in this scenario, which is indicative of lack of a empathy, poor boundary recognition, entitlement and control”
I misread that ? Those are narcissistic traits yes? That is what I meant ny my comment to Mommypino not to worry about projection if marc traits. If you meant it differently – that’s how I read it.
I think you say you respect everyone’s opinion and right to their perspective, unless it clashes with your own, which you are so sure of, that you cannot tell fact from opinion.
Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
That’s agreeable to me. I agree , as far as Abby is a free being in essence. I am totes in favour of free private bc for all.
That being said, I also think that anyone who disagrees with me is just as “correct”.
I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
I’m just saying ,
a) Madeleine isn’t a narcissist imho
b) Bonnie wasn’t obligated to not to tattletale bc – well, obligations are imaginary .
C) you suggested to Mommypino she has narc traits, then denied it and accused me of twisting facts (god now THAT sounds familiar itself 🤔)
Peace
WokeAF
1. K: re bc; In the states You can get bc . In some countries
You’re imposing your cultural norm and law as “the way it is”
But then again abortion was legal in the states until recently too, isn’t that illegal in some states now? Interesting how cultural norms can change . Laws. Rights. Etc
AAaaanyhooooo
(deflection, conversational derailment, irrelevant: BBL takes place in Monterey CA)
2. Re : me sticking to the facts. I am. I’m asking questions of the facts you’re presenting
Such as , WHO SAID Bonnie has a
moral obligation to not be a “tattletale” and keep Abby’s secret once she took her to get bc?
You haven’t answered that yet,
I’d love to hear your answer. What is it?
(Answered in a pervious comment)
3. I know you have it in you, bc you utilize both opinion AND fact as seen below;
“once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy.””
(Opinion)
“Bonnie is NOT required inform anyone she was giving Abby a ride. PERIOD.”
(Fact)
(Bonnie is an empath and she has a strong moral compass so it’s a reasonable assumption that she would adhere to her principals and values. Bonnie is not required to give anyone a courtesy call because that would be contrary to her values and unethical)
4.“mommypino is imposing her morality and cultural upbringing in this scenario, which is indicative of lack of a empathy, poor boundary recognition, entitlement and control”
I misread that ? Those are narcissistic traits yes? That is what I meant ny my comment to Mommypino not to worry about projection if marc traits. If you meant it differently – that’s how I read it.
(correct; MP projects, lies, blame shifts, manipulates, gas lights and paints herself as the victim and those are all narcissistic traits)
5. I think you say you respect everyone’s opinion and right to their perspective, unless it clashes with your own, which you are so sure of, that you cannot tell fact from opinion.
(Fact: MP attacked me and those that agreed with me while painting herself as the victim, which you conveniently ignore. mommypino wrote: I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly.)
6. Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
(Now you like an idiot; that’s deflection and it’s very clear you are grasping)
7.I have been trying to get you to catch a glimpse of your own hypocrisy but I can’t seem to do it.
(evidence of my hypocrisy??)
8. I’m just saying ,
a) Madeleine isn’t a narcissist imho
b) Bonnie wasn’t obligated to not to tattletale bc – well, obligations are imaginary .
C) you suggested to Mommypino she has narc traits, then denied it and accused me of twisting facts (god now THAT sounds familiar itself 🤔)
a) MMM is a narcissist.
b) Wow, obligations are imaginary; that speaks volumes about you. You like to flip-flop.
K says:
July 14, 2019 at 17:09
WokeAF
Yes, I have co-parented with an ULN and his MMRN wife.
Children have the right to get birth control WITHOUT their parents knowledge, permission or a courtesy call. Period. And it the parent doesn’t like it, too bad.
WokeAF says:
July 15, 2019 at 00:17
Yes, I get that, I agree .
c) This statement is unclear. Who is projecting?
Mommypino: don’t get worried about accusations about narcissistic traits. I think it’s a bit of projection.
K
Try to wrap your mind around this. (I get that it seems like flip flop);
I agree that children have the right to birth control without their parents consent AND SIMULTANEOUSLY I agree that Bonnie wasn’t obligated by any authority not to tell MMM about it.
I think ppl can and do , act according to their nature; aka what suits them or suits the image they have of themselves, (like of being a good person, for example.)
(well, until they resort to anger and insults 😉)
So while I find myself agreeable that Abby gets bc without MMM’s knowledge, I also find myself agreeable to Bonnie ratting on her.
It might appear as flip flop but it’s more like….um, not adhering to a set of moral rules. Seeing each situation individually.
I see you’re pointing out narcissistic traits you see in ME now.
Thanks for the nudge, I’ll evaluate them,but
I think I was just debating in a conversation about morals , which you encouraged and didn’t consider conversational derailment – as long as ppl agreed with your particulars
“c) This statement is unclear. Who is projecting?
Mommypino: don’t get worried about accusations about narcissistic traits. I think it’s a bit of projection”
You. Onto her.
And now me.
Because you then denied you did it, and said I was twisting the truth.
Anyhow,
I wasn’t “grasping” with bringing up quantum physics in relation to Abby being a separate individual. It’s actually everything.
Read into it.
There would be no debate on morals at all if ppl understood what is going on at the quantum level lol
Anyhow
Peace
WokeAF
You may be agreeable to Bonnie ratting on Abby but I imagine you wouldn’t like it if you confided in someone with the expectation of privacy and they betrayed your trust.
“WokeAF
You may be agreeable to Bonnie ratting on Abby but I imagine you wouldn’t like it if you confided in someone with the expectation of privacy and they betrayed your trust.”
She said that she understands Madeline being upset. She also said that if she has a friend who disclosed her secret she will never tell that friend a secret anymore. I think that both statements can coexist and are reasonable.
Deflection. That was a senseless comment.
K
Out of curiosity are you staying MP is a narcissist?
Twilight
No, I did not state that she is a narcissist. She is deflecting.
K
You have stated she has lied, deflected and gaslighted.
One can lie and deflect as a reactive response and still be empathetic/empathetic, yet to state someone is gaslighting takes things to a different level.
You hold weight here on the blog and what you say can influence another’s view.
Twilight
I know two CoDs that rewrite episodes, manipulate and lie and I am currently friends with an empath who has strong CoD traits and she is overly sensitive, has poor boundary recognition, obsesses, idealizes and devalues and she rewrites situations.
Toxic personalities can gas light.
K
My mother is a CoDependent and had her mind broken down.
She claims what happened to me with numerous situations never happened, is this rewriting history or her dealing with cognitive dissonance and following a path of lest resistance to keep from experiencing the pain of knowing she never stood up for me?
Twilight
you might find this helpful. I did.
HG Tudor
FEBRUARY 12, 2019 AT 10:29
Valid observation WS and the appropriate way is to not look at the intent but of the effect. If the behaviour causes you to feel that you are questioning yourself, you are hurt, puzzled, bewildering, questioning ‘your reality’ then it is gaslighting.
K
I remember HGs comment.
I disagree, not ever case of feeling bewildered, questioning things and such is gaslighting yet a subconscious reaction to expectations to situations.
Experiences and the emotions attached to similar situations I believe trigger this reaction.
I do think it can be a thin line between distinguishing an opinion one is reacting to vs someone actually trying to change ones belief or cause cognitive dissonance.
Twilight
When MP wrote all those lies, I was confused, bewildered and questioning MY reality and that is gas lighting.
K
What triggered you? I don’t believe this has anything to do with Mommypino yet of something deeper within you.
Just so you know I believe you felt that way.
Twilight
Incorrect. MP attacked NarcAngel and cb for supporting my argument and she chose to play the victim card to avoid accountability for her lies, projection and constant deflection.
Twilight; don’t bother
MP don’t apologize or try to reach common ground
… i tried that and I was told by K I had nothing to apologize for….only for the insults, name calling etc to actually ESCALATE. Well, that’s my perception anyhow.
. I can’t believe it took me this long to figure out what’s going on here.
( I had assumed K was an empath (just bc she said so)))
I haven’t yet heard her confirm HG has put his seal of approval on that .
(If he HAS then I’m not sure wtf happened here, other than you may be right in that myself or MP remind her of someone who took away her power and we triggered this )
Regardless- I should’ve realized ages ago and I’d hate to see you waste your time trying to assist
WokeAF
I understand why you and many others need HGs seal of who is an empathic/empathetic person,
K is an empath.
Twilight,
For my own purposes of understanding right now, I do need HG’s seal of approval in certain circumstances when I’m confused.
I’m trying to understand the dynamics of this whole conversation, and increase my own understanding of narcissists and empathy.
K may well be an empath. But for all I know, she could be a narcissist who’s determined herself to be an empath (my LMR did this , my MMR does this and that ESPECIALLY sucks bc while HG has determined him to be a MMR, he walks like, talks like, and claims to be an empath. It’s part of his facade.) and if that were the case with K, that would illuminate some things that have transpired here for me.
Or she could be an empath that has completely misunderstood ME, and been triggered by this- and THAT would explain some stuff.
I am not accusing K of being a narcissist to be clear.
I’m only engaging for the sole purpose of clarity and understanding in my own life, and not to hurt anyone’s feelings or sling mud or perpetuate discord on the forum.
WokeAF
I don’t blame you for thinking that I could be a narcissist and I know you are not accusing me of being one. Ha ha ha…HG, NarcAngel and Twilight would have caught on if I were one.
Regardless K. I don’t give a flying fuck if you’re an empath or a narcissist or whatever. You are highly abusive and your behavior is not acceptable. I don’t give a flying fuck about what the Pope thinks what you are or whoever else you want to triangulate with us. You have no fucking right to issue personal insults against us. I do not recall me nor WhoCares calling you a liar, an idiot, a manipulator etc. I don’t give a rat’s ass what triggered you. I also get triggered and get angry and overreact but I don’t call people names FOR DAYS. When are you going to give it a rest? This is so fucking boring. I have already issued a sincere apology and admitted several times that I have overreacted. That is not gaslighting for fuck’s sake. That is what really happened. I was stupid to overreact. I have always felt that there is a clique here in this blog and you are a big part of it. I understand that people respect you and value you because you contribute so much here. But that doesn’t give you a right to dehumanize me and WokeAF. And for people to not be honest with you and call you out on this is a fucking disgrace. I was ignoring you because I didn’t want to waste time on your false spin on what I said. I kept explaining to you what I truly meant only for you to say that I was lying and gaslighting. Why would I then continue to respond to you? Go figure that out since you so arrogantly call WokeAF stupid and an idiot, if you are so smart then you should be able to figure it out.
MP oh shit .
Oh. SHIT
No girl no don’t do this to me
😂 oh god .
I’m so sorry WokeAF. I sent this before I saw the progress that you were making. I sent Hg an email to not approve this comment but he already did by the time he got the message.
HG if you get me – and I think you do – you must be having a good laugh at my position right about now 😆 I might actually combust. 😝
Tell me! how am I going to orient myself so that I understand how to differentiate between misunderstood empaths , and narcissists ?!
I know I know- consult w you and read logic defences.
Consultation is the correct way forward
Is there a way I can pay you next Tuesday for a consult today?
😆
(Cartoon reference- in case u don’t know it)
See you next Tuesday then!
HG
“See you next Tuesday then”
Once again you own my biggest laugh today.
Naturally
HG
I don’t do Skype -out of curiosity would you be able to do a telephone call as a consultation
Yes
Brilliant. I’ll be im touch by email web I can afford it
ASAP lol
Haha. The irony of attempting to resolve dispute by quoting Wimpy.
My bad. I thought I was dealing with an adult.
*I have reread my comment and my auto fill falsely wrote WhoCares when I meant WokeAF.
WokeAF
You apologized but your behaviour after that clearly indicated that you weren’t sorry at all. You and MP kept going back and forth playing the victim. Are you unable to recognize your own biases? Do you actually read the comments and THINK before you respond? Because your behaviour indicates otherwise.
K
Im just gonna go ahead and apologize bc I’ve let myself go too far in this debate, and I don’t want to cause ppl to leave the forum bc of this thread, if that’s the case
I had a consult with HG and I am a Standard Carrier DEMB.
K
My behaviour after that was me trying to continue to try to figure out wtf was going on. I was, and am, sorry to anyone who finds this thread upsetting . I actually did dip out briefly, and then I got a notification in my inbox that referred to me as an idiot and I just had to come back in and see what was actually going on and to try to explain myself
I didn’t and don’t still totally understand what was happening .
K
I do read the comments of course before I reply, but I don’t necessarily understand them. It’s difficult because I switch from one perspective to the other constantly, constantly seeing the other person‘s perspective and then I switch back to the other person .
The only thing I can pick up on clearly immediately – is when someone’s comments turn vicious . I picked that up from you and not only your comments to mommypino but also to me .
That triggers something I’ve always had which is to stand up for the underdog and try to level the playing field . ET sometimes takes over at that point .
K
Are you saying your emotions were not triggered?
I was speaking to you and not Mommypino yet I am fullly aware that she was triggered to and have not addressed this due to you had my attention.
Twilight
Of course my emotions were triggered. It’s very frustrating to deal with people who have a victim mentality. Right now, I am in Narc Vegas and I am trying to keep my hatred under control with logic.
Narc Vegas: Where everyone has doubled down lol.
Lol, NA, my thoughts exactly and only the house wins.
FYC
Ha ha ha….the narcissistic trait of pride makes us argue more often thus providing more fuel. It’s a clash of personalities.
True dat, K, combined with empathic traits of tenacity and truth seeking.
FYC
Ha ha ha…It’s a Triple Whammy for the empath!
Indeed!
NarcAngel
Ha ha ha….absolutely correct, myself included.
K, This will be my very last post regarding this topic. I apologize if my actions caused these things. It was not my intention. I admit that I overreacted. I will not explain anymore my perspective at that time because I already have and I guess it doesn’t make an excuse for causing these to you. I wasn’t thinking about how it will affect you but I was just reacting. I apologize.
MommyPino
It’s ok. I know you didn’t mean to cause any problems, however, I was very confused by your conflicting statements and why you played the victim card.
My “new” gravitar made me laugh 😆…..now to figure out how the hell it changed
Twilight
I love your new gravatar!
Twilight
Just to be clear, I have noticed that empaths can deflect, deny and manipulate too. Also, diluting, glossing over and minimizing all cause doubt and that is gas lighting, as well.
K
You said “b) Wow, obligations are imaginary; that speaks volumes about you”
If you only knew 😆
I can explain further.
Or not .
K
Im just gonna go ahead and apologize bc I’ve let myself go too far in this debate, and I don’t want to cause ppl to leave the forum bc of this thread, if that’s the case
But I would like clarification on just one point
Do you think that EVERYONE is morally obliged to act as Bonnie did , by keeping it a secret from the parents ? (in the birth control situation on the show?)
WokeAF
You don’t have to apologize because you didn’t do anything wrong.
Once an individual shares confidential information with you, you should respect their wishes and keep it private.
“Once an individual shares confidential information with you, you should respect their wishes and keep it private.”
You are telling WokeAF what she should do when someone shares a secret to her. Can’t you see? You are TELLING HER what she SHOULD do.
K, when you said it, it also sounds like there are NO EXCEPTIONS. Would you consider instances where you will not respect their wishes and keep it private? Is this an absolute rule that you always abide by?
MommyPino
Wrong. I am not telling her what to do.
Deflection. Stick the scenario in BLL. It is interesting how you are entitled to free agency but deny it to both Bonnie and Abby.
Mommypino – leave it. I got the answer I was looking for , finally, anyhow. I’m good. Don’t let yourself get baited , it’s not a discussion it’s a competition. 🤷♀️
Ok so I just reread your comment ;
“6. Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
——>(Now you like an idiot; that’s deflection and it’s very clear you are grasping)”<——
And I’ve just realized we aren’t having a discussion on the concepts of morality in regard to BLL any longer. I had thought we were actually engaging but now I see you’re just trying to shut me down , as I had suspected you had done to Mommypino. When it comes to you saying I (sound) like an idiot because you think I’m grasping to prove a point , then I know it’s time to go.
I feel like you want to “win” and suddenly I’m trying not to “lose” 😂 and that’s taking it away from the actual discussion abt morality as it relates to the show and to real life
I may have come across the same way ! That I want to “win”.
So that’s no good either.
I really wasn’t trying to derail the convo.
In the interest of closing it up as far as what transpired here; it had been my hope to find out if you as a person literally believed that if Bonnie’s scenario played out IRL, , -a) you actually thought she was under some authority outside of her own, to behave according to some moral concept – b) and to try to see if you’d recognize that as contradictory to your own statements on morality being individual
And to stick up for Mommypino bc I don’t think she deserved to be decimated like that. I see her viewpoint and I saw her really trying to get it across until she got so frustrated she felt like she was being attacked and ganged up on and lost the plot and got upset. Totally understandable to me.
I engaged to this point in the interest of clarity on what type of empath you are, so I could learn
And also to clarify if I was misunderstanding somehow what you meant. (?!) then you said “wow you really do need things spelled out for you” and I was like, “wow, what a dick.”
Shoulda stopped there I guess 😂
It’s all very fascinating to me- esp how it relates to the narc & empath traits
But now I can see this isn’t something that’s bringing out the best in either of us
And I’m not sure if this convo was one of the reasons nunya took a break
But it doesn’t feel like a discussion anymore
Anyhow I’m outtie
(But we should totally lay a bet for like, a paperback copy of one of HG’s books- on if MMM is a super empath or a narc! If you’re into it, let me know in MMM’s poll thread!)
Peace
WokeAF
“6. Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
This paragraph is utter nonsense and makes you look like an idiot. Period.
MP wasn’t attacked or ganged up on, however, she did attack NarcAngel and cb.
“WokeAF
“6. Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
This paragraph is utter nonsense and makes you look like an idiot. Period.
MP wasn’t attacked or ganged up on, however, she did attack NarcAngel and cb.”
K, you cited all kinds of narcissistic traits or manipulative behaviors by me and yet you don’t recognize your own. Isn’t that hypocrisy? You are assasinating WokeAF’s character by saying that she’s an idiot. Highly personal and doesn’t contribute anything. What you did here is a manipulative technique employed by narcs to shut people down.
This comment is completely senseless AND it’s deflection (no surprise there). WAF wrote it and she made herself look like an idiot. She is responsible for her own idiocy, not me. You are blame shifting again (no surprise there).
Abby is a separate individual-
(Well, if we got quantum physics involved that would be proven utterly inaccurate but for the sake of argument)- with the “right” (imaginary) to bodily autonomy
Mommypino
I wasn’t going to read anymore but then I figured : I got to ! I mean, I want to find out the results to the “Is WAF an idiot or not” debate ! Lol
😂 😂 😂
My comment about quantum physics related to the fact that when broken down to the tiniest known measurement , (I won’t use technical terms) it’s been observed that there is literally no space between you and I. We are not actually separate individuals , and quantum theory takes it much further than that, and that’s a whole other discussion! Also once “one” experiences it on a profound level, it’s very difficult to hold opinions , morals, beliefs etc. as it’s seen through as all mental garbage and only useful to keep us all from killing each other .(and as with all truth- even that is paradoxical bc beliefs and Us vs Them morality is literally the main CAUSE of all the pain in the world. Sigh)
sometimes ppl pick up on what I say and other times it comes across as nonsense (or idiocy) and that’s fine.
It really WASNT a useful side note in this discussion but sometimes I can’t help myself.
It can be frustrating seeing all sides and a bigger picture BUT it helps me in life too.
For eg I totally see K’s viewpoint thinking you played the victim card. But bc I see where you were coming from, it’s obvious it’s not conscious manipulation , nor what you meant.
🤷♀️
Now! Back to finding out if I’m an idiot ! Lol jk
WokeAF
There is no need to debate because it is very clear. Your side note wasn’t very useful and it was deflection. At least you got that right.
You are glossing over MP’s behaviour with this statement below. How convenient.
For eg I totally see K’s viewpoint thinking you played the victim card. But bc I see where you were coming from, it’s obvious it’s not conscious manipulation , nor what you meant.
WokeAF, we both know that you’re not an idiot. Everybody (with logic) can see that. Don’t put any validity in opinions that shame. You know who you are and that’s what really counts. ❤️
Delusional.
WAF only has herself to blame for her own idiocy. The Reader knows what you both are and that’s what really counts. It’s very obvious in your comments.
K, you need to snap out of your ET!
Logic and Truth: You are a liar.
K;
You do NOT know what I am.
You write;
“WAF only has herself to blame for her own idiocy. The Reader knows what you both are and that’s what really counts. It’s very obvious in your comments.“
YOU do NOT know what I am.
“The Reader” can figure things out for his or her self.
I am a standard magnet empath as determined by HG, and this entire conversation , I spoke as clearly and coherently as I could. I tried to communicate with you and determine your view on things, and explain myself when I was misunderstood.
Don’t assume to speak for “the reader”.
As good at this as you may be, you’re not perfect at it- and I am the very evidence of that.
WokeAF
You are a spineless victim and you only have yourself to blame; you authored your own stupidity so deal with it.
I’m having trouble understanding THIS perception.
I will attempt it , but I think you have misjudged me.
K
“WokeAF
You are a spineless victim and you only have yourself to blame; you authored your own stupidity so deal with it”
I took a few minutes to transfer to your perspective. You are incorrect in your assessment of me as a spineless victim .
This statement is inflammatory on purpose. I perceive you are angry w me bc you have determined I’m attacking you with this statement about you not knowing what I am.
I’m not.
WokeAF
Look at your behaviour.
You like to flip-flop and you admit that MP played the victim card but then you removed culpability for her behaviour with this paragraph below by blame shifting it to “not conscious manipulation” and minimizing it with “nor what you meant”. You apologize but then continue to engage in playing the victim with MP.
“For eg I totally see K’s viewpoint thinking you played the victim card. But bc I see where you were coming from, it’s obvious it’s not conscious manipulation , nor what you meant.”
It wasn’t conscious though. She wasn’t doing it consciously. I had perhaps incorrectly understood manipulation to be conscious .When I said it’s not what she meant, I meant she wasn’t consciously trying to blame shift she actually perceived herself as a victim in that moment. And I understood why. She wasn’t playing the victim card U see? It was actually her perception. There’s a difference. Narcs play a victim card both consciously and unconsciously. Yes empaths can go onto their own victimhood of course. But that’s different than playing a victim card . I hope that makes sense
It’s in the intent. And because I could see her intent, I thought it must be obvious to others and that was my mistake . It was not my intent to encourage her victimhood or to perpetuate my own but only to support her so she felt understood, As she was feeling ganged up on and I was trying to level the playing field because that’s what I do apparently
WokeAF
So you thought it would be a good idea to go back and forth playing the victim card with MP and escalate matters. Brilliant.
BTW, she wasn’t being ganged up on.
As she was feeling ganged up on and I was trying to level the playing field because that’s what I do apparently
WokeAF
Just for clarity…I did not understand the ganged up on either. Who were you referring to as ganging up on MP?
I also have had a sensitivity for any perceived bullying. That triggered me, even if it was an incorrect perception on my part.
I don’t know if this will make sense, but I have an autistic child, and I am extremely sensitive to people in general feeling ostracized because they cannot communicate. I realize that this involves emotional thinking .
WokeAF
MP wasn’t being bullied but your ET had you jumping on the “MP Victim Bandwagon”, finger pointing and deflecting responsibility. Read through the comments; the two of you went back and forth with pity parties and blame shifting.
K
I will read through the comments and try to see where I am blame shifting and playing the victim .
I have read through these comments probably about 20 times and each time I am trying to see it from a different point of view so I can grasp what’s happening so bear with me
WokeAF
Don’t stress. If you think it will help, reread the thread so you can learn, then move forward.
K
I GOT IT
Well, most of it. There are a few bits that I still find debatable but it’s irrelevant at the moment.
For now: NA re: the ganging up thing. It was a projection of my own (sensitivity to bullying) being triggered by MP. If that makes sense. And then I got lost in ET .
Don’t kill me but I can still see it
Ok so- I would like to move forward , but where to?
Lol
This is causing a bit of cognitive dissonance because I’m not sure how to orient myself now .
WokeAF
Shit happens. It’s a new day and everyone is painted white again.
NA, oh , haven’t you read? Lol
Ha ha Narc Angel I am still painted black and owning it…….
WokeAF
Correct; you got it!
Your answer to NarcAngel was your ET speaking so, essentially, you gave her a non-answer.
You orient yourself and move forward by reading and posting on narcsite, that is how I synced up my cognitive dissonance.
K
Haha I had meant , where to move forward, as in, where the hell in this thread ! Lol!
I’d love to leave this whole explosion behind us if that’s cool with you, meaning I don’t want to explain myself anymore for what happened . I do apologize for being rude to you anyway and I appreciate you guys assisting me through my misunderstandings and definitely do that in the future if you see it
Thank you WokeAF
Apology accepted and you don’t need to explain anything to me; it’s all good. Please, it’s time to move forward.
HG, My apologies for a long comment ahead.
Just a point of clarification, WAF. VMRN’s never gaslight consciously. It is reflexive part of their highly defended ego state. VMRN’s are unaware of their manipulations. In my estimation, none of you are narcissists. Hopefully we can dispense with the narc convo.
Consider this: empaths in the throes of ET or normals in a temporary ego defense can overreact, rewrite the script, hurl accusations in defense, because their *perceptions* and emotions temporarily override logic and evidence. Further, people vary greatly in their self awareness and inherent logical thinking. (Please do correct me if I am wrong HG.)
From what I see as a reader, it appears MP has owned her inference that K was calling her a tattletale. BOTH K and MP agreed they have very different perspectives about parental involvement. In theory, this acceptance of varied perspectives could have ended this heated debate, but it did not. Why? But values were challenged. Our values may vary, but we hold them closely for a reason and defend them vigorously. When people feel their values are attacked (both K and MP did) they tend to double down on their defense.
In the interest of better understanding both sides, let’s do a little forensic examination with empathy for both contributors.
K is from the US, a highly individualistic society/culture. MP is from the Philippines, a highly collectivistic society/culture. They may both have different attachment styles and this would impact their perceptions. In any case, both value different concepts and hold very different perceptions. Both have abusive N parents. Both trust their instincts. Both are confident.
In the interest of self preservation, K left home as a teen to avoid further severe abuse. Clearly her parents did not have the capacity (based upon what she has shared to date) to make ANY healthy decisions on her behalf nor be competent to offer any healthy advice. K would not be the strong woman she is today if she had allowed herself to be controlled by her lesser narcissist family. Individualistic people tend to perceive third party intervention as intrusive or controlling.
So when MP said her belief was that Bonnie “should” have informed MMM in the best interest of the child (paraphrase) and that BC should be a family decision, and further used her own culture as an example, you can see how this would not wash with K (or many of us here).
On the other hand MP embraces and values her collectivistic culture and sees her involvement in her children’s lives as loving and caring to the highest degree, not intrusive or controlling. Further, in collectivistic cultures, uncertainty is mitigated by inclusion/involvement/action within the unit versus acting separately as an individual. This is a common and valued norm in Asia. Collectivism rises above individualists needs. (We can see this in action by MPs loving and supportive acts towards her very abusive mother before she died and with the family following her death).
When MP commented to K, she had been triggered by her personal orientation and closely held values that involvement (invited or not) is a loving action to benefit the recipient. She did not consider K would experience/view this quite differently. From this point forward she reacted emotionally to K’s counter of her own perceptions based upon her values. K later reacted out of her own frustration.
It is interesting to note that NONE of the parents involved BLL voiced ANY concern for Abby’s reproductive health. MMM only took issue with not being informed. Did this concern spring from collectivistic believes–clearly not. MMM is a quintessential individualist, yet she highly values her own influence and control to mitigate her fears too, just not for the same reasons as a collectivist. MMM felt *entitled* as her mother to be informed. Abby chose not to inform her (probably because she could anticipate her reaction and she would not experience such a reaction as positive). MMM drops the subject with Abby and goes on to complain to Bonnie who simply responds “okay”. Bonnie acted according to her values, not MMMs.
I am not saying MMM does not care about Abby’s choices. What is at times unclear, is the motivation behind her caring. She uses herself as the measure of what “should” be important for Abby. Many parents do this who or not narcissists, many more do this and are narcissists.
I hope some of the above thoughts are helpful for everyone’s consideration. I see no bad actors, only hurt feelings and questionable debate tactics. I would hate to see valuable contributors alter their assessment of a fellow commentor based upon a heated discussion fueled by misperceptions and hurt feelings. I thank you and K and MP for considering my POV and comment.
K
In the interest of avoiding conversational derailment;
The main question I have for you is this;
You said “once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy.”
My very direct question to you regarding this quote is;
According to who?
WokeAF
This is my direct answer to you: according to Bonnie.
Wow, you really do need stuff spelled out for you.
K , you said;
“WokeAF
This is my direct answer to you: according to Bonnie.”
So then;
Bonnie was not morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy
Except by her OWN moral standards
Meaning, if someone else ratted to her mom because that was THEIR moral standards, that would be equally correct, yes?
Would you agree?
WokeAF
This comment reads like a word salad.
In this context, if an individual rats someone else out then that person is amoral.
K, It does not read like a word salad.🤦♀️ WokeAF is illustrating logic here which you cannot grasp.
If Bonnie’s moral standard says she should never disclose secrets.
And Bonnie never disclosed secrets.
Then Bonnie abides by HER own moral standards.
If Peter’s moral standards say it’s acceptable to disclose secrets.
And Peter disclosed secrets.
Then Peter abides by HIS own moral standards.
But Peter did not abide by Bonnie’s moral standards.
K, you said that “In this context, if an individual rats someone else out then that person is amoral.”
Amoral to whose standards???? You say this as if it is an ultimate truth or standard that applies to everyone including Peter. You are imposing your values to Peter and to everyone when you declare that person as amoral.
Deflection.
Hi WokeAF,
I’m sorry about the direction that the discussion took. It makes me sad. And thank you for standing up for me. You are definitely NOT an idiot. You are amazingly insightful and empathic and you have an open mind and high tolerance of everyone’s perspectives. You did not agree with everything that I said but you understood where my perspective and even narcissistic behaviors came from. That is the opposite of what an idiot is.
WokeAF you understood how I felt here: “ I see her viewpoint and I saw her really trying to get it across until she got so frustrated she felt like she was being attacked and ganged up on and lost the plot and got upset. Totally understandable to me.” Thank you for that.
I didn’t bother to respond to K’a blow by blow narcissistic interpretation of me (which were her inaccurate and highly biased SPIN by the way) because I just didn’t care at that point. I don’t feel the need to defend myself to her. I actually chuckled when I have read that comment from her. It was a sign for me to try to close the discussion with her in a polite or amicable way and just agree to disagree. That’s why I even shared an anecdote about my son to make it lighter. When people start to get personal instead of discussing ideas, it’s a sign that they have an armor and so any further discussion is pointless. I have read many inaccurate statements from K about me and I’m not sure if I really want to invest my time correcting her. I don’t think that people here really care. K has already armored up. And I know the truth. I am not a narcissist. I did not manipulate and lie; I just had a different perception. I did not play a victim; I voiced my frustration. I did not paint the Filipinos as victims. That is probably the most ridiculous thing that K has said. Ridiculous. I was pointing out a difference in culture and since I am very familiar with the culture of where I grew up in, naturally I will use that as an example and to even give more clarity as to where my perspective was coming from. I was actually proud of the culture of my home country where there is a high value placed in families and respect. It was coming from a place of being proud of it. I do not see myself as a victim. Far from it. I never saw myself as a victim. I got frustrated at my situations but I never internalized those things as being about me (poor me) but more of experiencing a hardship presently. You understood exactly how I felt when I wrote those comments, it was coming from a source of frustration and not from victimhood. I was frustrated because I felt that the difference in values and culture is preventing some people (at that time I thought everyone) reading my comments from understanding me and I thought that I was being judged for a hypothetical situation. When she wrote the comment to you, I felt that even though she didn’t direct those names (asshole and tattletale) directly towards me, it was indirectly referring to me, me who said that I will consider giving the child’s parent a courtesy call if I was a stepmom and the child comes to me instead of her mom if I know that the mom is a loving parent. So that’s what I felt, I felt that I was one of those people that she was calling names. But honestly I don’t care about what anybody thinks about me, especially in a blog. I know what kind of person I am. Even HG (the real expert) said that I am not a narcissist. What really matters most is how I make the people who know me in real life feel whenever they interact with me. And in that respect, I am very satisfied.
“Your problem is you spent your whole life thinking there are rules. There aren’t.”
~Lorne Malvo -Fargo
One of my all time fave quotes
K u wrote “The PP scenario was about Abby, however, you keep making it all about yourself by imposing your moral views (and culture) on Bonnie ”
Aren’t you doing the same thing?
“once Bonnie agreed to drive her, she was morally obligated to respect Abby’s right to privacy”
According to who’s morals?
WokeAF
Wrong. I am not imposing my morals on anyone.
Logic:
Abby needs a ride to PP and asks Bonnie. Abby is entitled get a ride from anyone she chooses to go anywhere she wants for any reason. Abby is NOT required to contact her mother to inform her about her whereabouts or her personal life. Period. Bonnie is NOT required to inform anyone that she is giving Abby a ride. Period.
Are you missing out on some things?
1. Abby is a separate individual who has rights of her own; she is not an object to be controlled.
2. Abby lives with her father and Bonnie.
3. Madeline is an abusive narcissist.
4. Controlling behaviour is abusive!!!
mommypino is imposing her morality and cultural upbringing in this scenario, which is indicative of lack of a empathy, poor boundary recognition, entitlement and control.
Again, it is about what Abby wants. Everyone else is irrelevant.
It is your personal moral code, K. I happen to have the same code as you, in this particular case. I would do what you would do in this matter.
cb
It isn’t about my moral code. I am impartial, there is no “me” in this scenario.
I do not impose my morality, culture or beliefs on others, however, I try to make an effort to understand other people’s POV.
1. You want an abortion. Great! It’s your choice.
2. You want to be a porn star. Excellent! have fun.
3. You want to shoot up. Fabulous! Enjoy.
4. You want to eat junk food, drink beer and be a couch potato. Sublime!
5. You want to hookup with a different person each night. Go for it!
6. You want to be a prostitute or a stripper to support yourself. Fantastic!
My morality is irrelevant.
I have not wanted to enter in this discussion, but it seems one point is lacking so I will make this one point and l’m out:
When someone asks for the participation of another to accomplish a goal (“Hey, will you help me accomplish X?”), it is the privilege of the asked to *choose* to participate or decline participation in accordance with their values, based on any acquired or available information. Taking action to intervene beyond the choice offered assumes many factors and imposes ones POV on another. We are each personally responsible for our own choices and resulting consequences.
And also K, I would rather burn a bridge, have a friend be mad at me for what was perceived as a betrayal than let that friend make a mistake of her life. You don’t think that there are people who regret having abortion? Then you’re in denial! And if my difference of opinion to you and your friends here means that you cannot genuinely respect me aside from lip service, then I don’t want to talk to you anymore. You don’t have the right to tell people what their moral obligations are. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me, but unlike you I really respect other people’s opinions without the need to call them names.
MommyPino
Be fearless, speak your mind and never apologize; life too short to do anything different.
My friend never regretted having the abortion, we are still friends today and the only three people who know about it are me, my friend and the driver.
BTW, I never called you a tattletale asshole.
My pleasure nunya biz
And thank you, I hope my comments are a good influence! Your comments help me with perspective, as well. We enjoy reciprocity here.
BLL is fantastic but it glosses over some of the abuse or the ramifications of it. Not in the case of Perry and Celeste and I think Amabella’s anxiety is an accurate representation of abuse.
It’s a little difficult with Bonnie because we don’t really see Nathan devalue her badly, however, he’s triangulating her with Madeline (playdates, BC & PP) and he blamed Bonnie for “The Auctioning of the Virginity” stunt.
In an ideal world, NPD parents should attend therapy/CBT which may help mitigate the abuse that they inflict on their children and children could attend therapy to help them counter their NPD parents. Showing and teaching empathy in kindergarten might help. IDK. it’s a mess.
Most mid-rangers are not violent; they usually slap their children/spouses. Slapping is mid-ranger; punching is lesser. Emotional violence is very bad but it isn’t addressed enough in the courts and people dismiss it or don’t understand how bad it is.
There is a mid-range family that has produced three NPD children and one lonely empath. All the children are young adults and one of them drives while intoxicated and that is the result of EV.
MR’s will throttle too
K, that is sad for the one lonely empath. Very sad. Being surrounded sucks, and I understand you should know.
I think the parenting/cbt class idea is interesting and really imo, having gone through it, is that even MITIGATING the behavior somewhat would have been a relief to me. I also think empathy teachings would fit in kindergarten. I believe both of my children have a good deal of empathy. I have worried about my son because he gets so stubborn when he’s cranky sometimes it’s like a stonewall, but I just picked him up from camp and the boy leading him took the time to emphasize “He should come back. He’s a good kid.”
And I’ve been told that by any teachers who seem to be aware (some are not and just see some external things and kids get pigeonholed/ignored). He may end up being staff at the camp next year in charge of some boys, he seems interested to do it and it will fulfill his high school volunteer hours requirement.
Thanks for listening. I’m glad you are a passionate advocate.
My pleasure nunya biz
I enjoy listening to others and advocacy is very important and necessary for community health.
Being surrounded sucks big time! She is my daughter’s friend and she comes over to vent. Poor thing!
If good quality day free care were available, that might help as well. Hopefully, your son will have the opportunity to be a Camp Councilor next year, especially if it interests him. When children grow up and get their first job, it’s very exciting because they are becoming independent, earning money and making their own decisions.
I’m taking a break from posting for a bit. I’ve been getting too emotional and worked up over the last couple of weeks, some of it unrelated to here, a personal thing, and some things are getting under my skin. I put emotion into my expressions with people and I’m just feeling a little drained myself. I express my weaknesses in the interest of transparency because I don’t like anything I say to be taken out of context since I have copious flaws. It’s just not balanced at the moment and I thought I’d thank you MP and K for being supportive and helpful to me, a lot of things on here have been helpful from a lot of people, just reading perspectives and things. I really needed it. I’ll probably post some more soon. The truth is I need to focus on a few self-care things, because I’m guessing my feelings are generated by something I need to balance right now. Thought I’d tell you since I’m jumping out of the discussion for a bit and it’s not related to this conversation : ) You’ve been enormously helpful to me in feedback while I sort my mind, not to mention enjoyable. Be back later, XO.
Take care of you nunya biz. I hope you will feel better soon. Hugs!
Nunya biz
May you have a relaxed good time. Hope to see you again when you’re ready
Nunya biz
Putting yourself first is smart, and if taking a bit of a break helps to achieve that balance, that is what you must do. I enjoy reading what you share nunya, so I look forward to catching up whenever you are energized and wish to continue. Take care in the meantime.
NA
My pleasure nunya biz
Enjoy your break!
Take care NB. Relax and enjoy. Hope you return soon refreshed and renewed.
HG – in the Empathy Cake article, I asked you if ppl that are narcissistic but not narcissists ever gaslight.
You replied , I think (?) No.
I had been trying to determine if my babydaddy was a narc bc he consistently uses many narc manipulations , including gaslighting.
By you saying No , that only narcissists gaslight, I drew my own conclusion he is likely a narc , and am dealing with the cognitive dissonance this causes (I’m doing ok with it)
Now of course I intend on a consultation with you to be sure, but in the interest of clarity,
DO empaths or normals or even narcissistic ppl use gaslighting?
K perceives MP and myself to be gaslighting, but we don’t feel that’s the case, and indeed if it is the case , we don’t intend it as so.
How is one to tell the difference between reacting in a gas lighting fashion, and a narcissist’s use of gaslighting?
Is it in the intention? Or how it makes you feel?
This sort of puts my cognitive dissonance over my kid’s dad back into effect bc I perceive he is gaslighting to WIN and shut me down whereas if myself and (I think) MP were gaslighting , it was not for that intention.
I’d sure love more information on this
Thx
1. If you want assistance re determining if your ‘babydaddy’ was a narcissist, use this https://narcsite.com/narc-detector/
2. Gaslighting. Most manipulators do not realise they are manipulating. Greaters know because we have the skill set and ability to do it and do it effectively, we also manipulate often and repeatedly hence we are extremely good at doing it. Lesser and Mid Range do not realise they are being manipulative (because they lack the ability to do so effectively and if they were fixed with knowledge they would take too long to manipulate (thus losing control) and not do it effectively. Their narcissism does it for them without them noticing, thus it is fast and effective. Gas lighting is not intentional by the narcissist (Lesser or MidRange) but is a manifestation of the Twin Lines of Narcissistic Defence. Empaths are very poor at manipulating, why? Because they are not practised, have to consciously do it and are burdened by guilt, remorse etc. This is actually a detailed area and I have summed it up briefly here. I recommend you arrange a consultation with me so I can explain it to you in greater detail.
Yes HG I understand I need to consult regarding my babydaddy. I will as soon as I have the extra $ .
I also intend to consult re my own school and cadre. You determined me to be a standard empath of magnet cadre, but this was before the percentages etc and a specific empath detector consult! And I hadn’t given you much to go on regarding cadre.
The thing is, I understood gaslighting to be purely a narc manipulation. I wasn’t aware empaths could do it (even poorly)
It would be very unusual for an empath to gas light.
Hg
Would it be very unusual for a narcissist to accuse an empath of gaslighting?
No. Nor would it be unusual for an aware empath to accuse a narcissist of gas lighting.
Would it be unusual for an aware empath to accuse another empath of gaslighting ?
Depends on the evidence. If there is evidence of gas lighting, then an aware empath would identify it.
(I do know what you are doing by the way!)
I know you know and I love you for it.
Ok. Very interesting.
One more, please 💕
Is it unusual for an empath to walk into something and inadvertently get lumped into the narc category ?
Depends who the empath is dealing with.
Indeed.
Thanks HG . I really appreciate this.
HG
——
MommyPino on July 25, 2019 at 14:41
Hi WokeAF,
HG said in my comment after asking him if I am a Dirty Angel and he said that I’m an empath or he said no I’m not a narcissist (I can’t remember the exact words).
——-
Is this correct HG
HG to be honest, I’m very confused by all of this. Is it possible for an empath to unknowingly gaslight if she had a wrong perception of a situation and thought that she was defending herself but her defense of herself caused the other person to be gaslighted? Is gaslighting always deliberate or can someone unknowingly gaslight?
An Empath can gas light, it’s intentional but it would be very rare.
A greater narcissist gas lights. We do it knowingly and find it entertaining.
A middle and lesser narcissist gas lights, it is not intentional, they do not see it. Gas lighting by a narcissist who is Lesser or Mid-Range is instinctively deploying the Twin Lines Of Narcissistic Defence.
So HG, does that mean that it is not possible for an empath to unknowingly gas light?
The only one who unknowingly gas lights are the Lessers and Mid Rangers?
What if in the heat of emotions an empath or a normal unknowingly gas lights?
An empath does not instinctively gas light because empaths are not designed to instinctively manipulate.
An empath could knowingly gas light but this would be unusual and would most likely be a response to abuse.
An empath could unwittingly give the impression of gas lighting through a genuine mistake, but then of course that is not actually gas lighting.
Lesser and Mid Range instinctively and unknowingly gas light, this is through operation of the First Line of the Narcissistic Defence.
HG thank you for clearing that up
Thank you HG for the answer!
HG I forgot to thank you for your answer.
HG
Can CoDs rewrite the script?
Which script are you referring to?
HG
In the past, I had a roommate whose boyfriend was blowing lines of coke and freebasing and, when I showed her proof of his drug use, she denied it and told people I was making up stories. I am fairly certain that she is a CoD and is a narcissist.
She cannot be a codependent and a narcissist. Did you miss a ´he´from your comment?
Ha ha ha…yes, i missed the He.
@WokeAF
I’m pretty certain some Ns are at the very least unsure whether I’m an N or not.
Typically the mids who beleive they are greaters.
I tbink because I can be lots of fun to hang out with, I flatter them (whilst pulling internally) and also put on quite a fake persona (only when I’m with that particular type, I think it’s a self preservation thing since learning). Anywya I see them really study and analyse me hard to work out whether I am or not and they dip in and out of thinking I am then I’m not. I know this by the unusual comments they make to me and the weird questioning like they’re trying to catch me out lol
That brings me to another question HG. The mids are not so great at identifying other narcs at all. Because some they really believe are a ‘good bloke’ or such an ‘amazing woman’
Would greaters and mids who believe they are greaters have knowledge that most Ns don’t even know that they’re Ns? Or would they (esp those mid types) think that if they’ve recognised a fellow N thst that N knows they are an N.
I hope thst makes sense to you.
HG 🙌 I am sorry, can you please tell me what “Gaslight” means?
I’ve been trying to grasp the meaning for 3 years.
Does it mean to tell someone they are crazy? For example the LMR Somatic said I have Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.
It does not mean telling someone that they are crazy, it means behaving in such a way to cause you to doubt your reality. For instance, you know you tell the narcissist that you were meeting for dinner at 8pm. He turns up at 9pm and maintains that you agreed 9pm. You start to doubt whether you did say 8pm, you think you did, but you see the narcissist is so adamant that maybe you are wrong.
K
I might as well add in , becuz fuck it, why not ;
“I am a standard magnet empath as determined by HG”
EVEN THIS is not what I experience as what “ I “am”.
This is what is experienced as the best as a label can define it when I interact in the physical world as what can be termed awareness w a body and a psyche, w other bodyminds.
And if you don’t understand that , that’s fine. I’m tired of hiding it.
I’d prefer to stay out of the mental realm entirely but the fact is I have to co exist in a world w narcissists , and also I flip back into separation semi regularly under certain triggers, so I might as well understand wtf is happening psychologically w narcs and empaths– and this blog seems a pretty good place to learn some navigational techniques.
I was triggered into defending what I perceived as someone being shut down.
Any deflection or word salad was not intended and defin not cause for insulting my intelligence. In my perception. Although the “being responsible for my own idiocy” comment WAS genuinely comical to me . 😂
However I sense it wasn’t meant to be. And I actually got a bit butthurt by you not seeing I’m trying to understand, and insulting my intelligence.
Yes you did need to spell things out for me. Not because I’m obtuse; but because I’ve honestly could not understand what you were saying AT THAT TIME. I would suggest it would be helpful for you to keep that in mind for other newbies on the blog. (Not a criticism).
ET “for justice”’( 😂 another of my recent faves) did take over to an extent but not in a malicious way.
I hope ive explained my perception a little bit better so everyone including K can understand me
If you K, knew what I am, you would know I am YOU. Additionally, you would know where I am coming from with my comments .
Now I’m just gonna go cry because yet another explosion of understanding another perspective has happened in my mind 😭 😂
Fuck. It’s never ending.
Just ignore this last comment. I sound like a crazy person. I may well be a crazy person .
I also noted my own victim stance again. Just ignore me. I take responsibility for my own idiocy .
Woke,
If you feel/mean something, state it & stand by it. If you didn’t give it enough thought before you expressed yourself, ok… then take a pause, maybe express that. But otherwise, why are you condemning your own thoughts/feelings?
Caroline
It’s an overshare.
That’s all.
💗 ty
Woke,
We all do sometimes! Well, except HG. 😉
But hey, what’s up with this show? Who’s Ed?
JK!…I’ll exit off & let you guys bask in your poll results. Have fun. 🙂
MMR cerebrals just blend right in I think.
Nunya Biz: You can not lose all of your mind watching this show. You have to save at least some of your mind for our next Event, Chernobyl, remember? 🙂
PSE, I don’t think I can stomach Chernobyl! This is my most intense level. Like a Nurse Jackie type drama or similar. But yeah, hearing everyone’s reasonable explanations is making my head spin, I just don’t know.
Nunya Biz. Just make your observations first, to HG`s questions, without reading others` comments. That is what I did. And do not read the others, at all, if it bothers you. But your voice is important, if you can participate, in these Assessment Events: Just like when the detectives interview people that witness a situation, the detectives actually prefer that you did not talk to others first. The detectives even isolate witnesses as much as they can, because the detectives want the individual witnesses` unadulterated memories about the event, first and foremost. And after which , witnesses can talk with each other, and only if they choose to. And for the same reason, juries are even sequestered at times. So that they are not contaminated by outside influence, so to speak. So, HG is like the lead Detective. And he wants our individual assessments of these characters, for the best analysis, of what is being learned. So, I respect your decision of course, and the discomfort, but I just wanted to help you with some other ways to go about it, and to remind you that you need not read anything at all that is not helpful to you. And, yes.: I am being selfish as well. I like your postings. 🙂
Ha, yes, PSE, thank you. Very nice comment I appreciate that a lot. I get involved with the characters, that’s why I don’t know about Chernobyl. Thank you for thinking about it : )
Ed isn’t cerebral ?! He sings and dances and leers at women
I’m thinking somatic actually . My LMR was same. But also good at computers.
I noticed him checking out women, too, FYC.
K, he’s so sex deprived. He can’t help but check out other women!
MB
Ha ha ha….you have a point. Thanks for the laugh!
K: I perceive that you did not like Ed? hahaha.
PrincessSuperEmpath
At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot.
K. Hmmm….the evidence is building up…..I still perceive you do not like Ed. Lots of unflattering descriptions of him…should I list them? 1) You give him the following recommendations: His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer. Also:
2) At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot. Well, K. I dunno. I do not see the love. Maybe it`s just me.
PrincessSuperEmpath
Ed’s tolerable and I don’t hate him, however, he reminds me of a Debbie Downer. Now, Perry and Mary Louise, they are ghastly and I hate them both!!!
K ;
You write ;
K on July 8, 2019 at 21:54
PrincessSuperEmpath
Ed’s tolerable and I don’t hate him, however, he reminds me of a Debbie Downer. Now, Perry and Mary Louise, they are ghastly and I hate them both!!!
I LOVE THEM LOL. I love narcs and sociopaths. I’m twisted. I find their cunning delightfully intriguing, i Love how they just say what they feel
Eg Ed telling Nate it’s ok if they just dislike each other
Lmfao I believe I’ve SAID that to ppl – which is another reason I still have trouble seeing Ed as a narc. I’d say it just being honest and unattached lol
I love how they don’t give a F what ppl think (well, the LMR and Lessers) I don’t even have ANGER at my personal narcs, I just find them so juicy! I may choose to GOSO, bc they’re toxic – but I still love them FOR WHAT THEY ARE.
Plus they’re fun to mess with (Again from a safe distance)
Love Perry & Mary Louise
The characters I like least are Nathan (only bc he’s not juicy enough) and Jane (boring) and Ed (not quite juicy enough but I’m starting to like him more now that I’m not projecting empathy onto him
I agree with you, MB.
MB: Agreed.. All men check out women, some just hide it better, but Ed is never topped off. He probably looks at women so much and so intently that his eyes are bloodshot, and that is probably the reason for his need of the Visine that his wife mentioned.
PSE, I will be shocked if HG says Ed is a narcissist.
I don’t care if my husband checks out other women. As far just enjoying the view. Hell, sometimes I’ll say, “did you see those?!?”
PrincessSuperEmpath
It was the way he checked out women that made me notice it. His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer.
Exactly.
I agree, MB, that sort of thing doesn’t bother me and I discuss my attractions on TV etc as well, as a matter of openness, not triangulation, I resent the idea that some think marriage equals death of perception. I agree with K on the peeper thing though and when something’s up something’s up. I’ve seen women innocently flirt with my husband or do it with almost a vendetta.
I’m more emotionally involved with this character because he reminds me of my husband. It’s really easy to miss certain behaviors that can degrade things insidiously over time. My husband used to “peep” ME. Quite a lot and in many strange ways. But he would never directly let me know or tell me what he liked about me, I would just catch him and ask why he doesn’t show it. Seems like no big deal, but I consider it extremely harmful. I would tell him we’re already married and he’s allowed to “like” me.
Of course the character and my husband are two different things, so who knows where this is going!
NB, exactly! I’m married, not dead! And Hubby is very much alive too and quite the breast man 🤣
Bewwwwbbbbs.
You men are obsessed!
I was just channeling your husband for you.
Hubby is satisfied with my endowment, but that doesn’t stop him from looking at the scenery. N was obsessed with mine. As far as I’m concerned, you’ve seen one set, you’ve seen them all. (But I’m not steeped in testosterone!)
Hi nunya biz…my hubby i catch watching me and tbh it gives me mixed feelings. Its nice feeling attractive but i also feel anger and sadness bc he doesnt know how to show or say how he feels in regard to this. Sexually hes very messed up. I love him dearly but if he wouldve been open years ago and told me he was attracted to me or expressed himself things would be so much different between us.
I do find some of the sex scenes triggering in different ways. Triggering in regards to my hubby and also the narc. It triggered sadness bc these couples shared a passion(not perry and celeste) and ive never had that with my hubby. Triggering with the narc in that our sex is passionate and amazing but its wrapped up in npd and lacks any true love or substance.
When i see a married couple like ed and madeline im envious bc they could have something really amazing!
To be perfectly clear, I have no issue with people looking per se, and I have never had any jealousy issues. With see it’s the creepy stalker way Ed was staring from the shadows (not looking) and how he reacted to being caught.
FYC, I knew what you meant. There can be normal looking and then there’s CREEPY looking. Definitely two different things!
MB
Exactly, there is big difference between normal looking and creepy looking.
That’s a good thing, MB, because my editing was awful.😜 I started to write something longer, but I deleted the superfluous, but missed some. It should have said, “It’s the creepy, stalker way Ed…”
CM I can only speak from my experience and perspectives and I would love an HG input on that sort of thing, but to me it is objectification. The way I view it is that I am empath and attract narcs who have low emotional range generally, cannot genuinely connect emotionally and rely on me for it while taking credit and do weird shit like silent treatments and projecting. Objectification can be painful I feel. HG says I have not insignificant contagion qualities and to me the chasm has felt like a vast dark sea of pain. I’ve remedied some of that pain with self love and autonomy and mediating my guilt for things beyond my control.
Some of the sex stuff triggers me also, in both positive and negative ways.
Hi Fyc….i jad mentioned early on in one scene ed looked at madelines eldest daughter in a creepy way when she was on the balcony but i thought maybe i read too much into it and he was showing concern trying to figure out what was going on in her life. Idk it seemed creepy but hard to know.
MB: I look at HG Tudor`s assessment of Ed in this manner: 1) If HG says he is not a Narcissist. Then I was correct. 2) If HG says he is a Narcissist, then I am not surprised, because I like Ed. And, I will be reminded to always be resisting. Reminders are good. 🙂 3) If HG says Ed is Normal, then Normals are more tolerant than I realized, and that is a good thing. If HG says he is an Empath, then I am glad, because, again, I like Ed, and I am right, and he is not dangerous for me. So I am enthusiastically awaiting HG`s assessment of Ed.
PSE, that is a great way to look at the exercise. I like Ed too.
Note for those seeing Ed’s reaction to her affair as narcish: My husband is a normal. He had an affair 20 years ago. We worked hard and stayed together. HOWEVER: He told me at that time (and has maintained since) that he would not be able to do the same if the shoe had been on the other foot. He didn’t comprehend how I could accept it and move forward with the relationship although he admitted he was glad that I did. (That doesn’t make him a narc. That makes him human.)
MB: I believe your husband. Many men will not tolerate infidelity from their women. As forgetful as many men portray themselves to be, their woman being unfaithful, will be an endless video track in their minds` memory. So, if one wants to hurt a man for whatever reason, yet still stay with the man after the vengeance is done, find some other way than being unfaithful, I would suggest, the next time around, if it is too late this time around. Hide his socks or something for a day or so!
PSE, interestingly enough, I’ve never had the desire to get revenge against him for his affair. Besides, if I ever had an affair and he found out the identity of my partner, I would be concerned for their well being as well as mine. It would not be something I would do purposely to hurt him. It would be due to my own selfish DE streak. I wouldn’t feel guilty for being unfaithful, but I would be quite remorseful if he was hurt because of it.
Win win win win win
: D
K. Now, Ed is a Debbie Downer, as well?l: I perceive that if I keep mentioning Ed to you, the charges against him will lengthen. 1) You give him the following recommendations: His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer. Also:
2) At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot. And now, a new one: he is a potential 3) Debbie Downer. K, I am so glad you do not dislike him, as yu say, because, if you did, the poor guy would never see the light of day. 🙂
PrincessSuperEmpath
Ed is fine with me; I don’t mind him at all. I knew two male MMRNs that sulked all the time and I got along with them quite well in the past, I just never understood why they seemed so down all the time. Now I understand them and I never hated them. It was Pity Play central.
K. 2 Sulkers at once ? How did you manage it. Hahaha! My goodness. We deserve some medals to pin on our shoulders, that we can peruse on each other, and ask each other about. LOL!!!
PrincessSuperEmpath
ha ha ha…purple hearts for getting our asses kicked by narcissists during The War. We would be covered by them.
FYC, Great point on Ed staring at women especially at Bonnie. I don’t know how Bonnie is able to tolerate that. If a guy does that to me ny involuntary reaction is turn my back against him. I had a doctor do that to me during the surgery center’s Christmas party and before I realized it my back was already slightly turned against him although I was still nodding and giving pat answers to the things that he was saying, my body was slowly walking away from him and getting ready to say goodbye in a polite way and with a polite smile.
Also, my only point of reference for guys is really just my husband and he doesn’t stare at women. There was a time though in Vegas when there was a tall, blonde and gorgeous woman wearing almost nothing but tassels on her beautiful fake boobs and bikini that sparkles with beads standing on the street to be paid to have people take pictures with her turned my husband’s head involuntarily. It made me a little jealous but I understood that he couldn’t control it because she also turned my head and made my mouth open 😲 and I’m not even bisexual!
Although I think that MB raised and excellent point about Ed being sex deprived. It did strike me as Ed acting like a dog in heat. It’s pathetic and gross but it’s also Madeline’s fault. 🤮. I personally think that it is unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them.
“…Ed being sex deprived…acting like a dog in heat… It’s pathetic and gross but it’s also Madeline’s fault. 🤮. I personally think that it is unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them.”
Hi MP, I am of the view that our actions are our responsibility. MMM is responsible for her actions and Ed is responsible for his. Even if Ed is literally not getting any, does this turn him into a creepy dude staring at a sweaty woman in the shadows? I don’t think so. Ed has other options.
I agree Ed and MMM have a poor marriage. Ed says he sensed when MMM accepted his proposal she was not choosing him for the reasons he desired. This indicates he opted in for other reasons.
With regard to ‘fairness’, again, it is Ed’s personal responsibility to live according to his values. He is not a victim he is a volunteer. He can resolve the situation in a variety of ways or divorce. Ed is responsible for Ed. Ed may stay due to their child, but he never states this. Instead, he seems more enmeshed with MMM. He is unhappy yet stays willingly.
FYC, Ed loves MMM to pieces. He reminds me very much of my own husband. I’ve always said he loves me more. I’m willing to accept things that are less than perfect because the good outweighs the bad. I can absolutely attest that wild, passionate, urethra-shattering, sex isn’t a foundation that any marriage can be built on. There are things that will make me unhappy if I dwell on them, but who’s to say another partner would make a difference. I’m the common denominator here! The things that matter the most are accounted for. I have independence and freedom and somebody that has my back. All of this AND my guts aren’t in constant knots. There is certainly something to be said for that. When you compare the absence of that to the absence of great sex, which one is really the dealbreaker?
I dedicate this to my husband, I am so grateful for him and need to tell him more often. This song sums up our relationship. Get your tissues. This one always make me cry. It IS genuine and I’m proof that it IS possible. Who the hell would trade this for urethra-shattering sex?
My favorite line; gets me every time: “…you were born to fly, and if you get to high, I’ll catch you when you fall.”
https://youtu.be/jhFT6SqarUU
Hi MB, My point to MP was simply that we are each responsible for our decisions and actions.
I have no doubt your description of your marriage is accurate (and I enjoyed the sweet expression in that song). Sounds like you both love what you bring to each other. Many people marry someone who loves them more or loves them less and both are happy with their decisions for their own reasons and find a way to have a loving relationship on their own terms. I do not see this same dynamic at work for Ed and MMM, but I could be wrong.
While some people make reasonable compromises, many more make unhealthy compromises and remain in unhealthy relationships. This is one reason why it is so important to be clear on our values. We always get what we settle for (and we may never find what we hope for–there are not guarantees).
To me, it seems Madeline and Ed do not have a genuine loving relationship, they have a fantasy bond (the outward appearance of a good relationship, but each are merely going through the motions). They need each other for different reasons and maybe appreciate each other for those things they fulfill, but deeper love seems to be absent. Again I could be misreading this or reading too much into this due to the process of using logic to dissect a fictional relationship.
It seems to me, Ed loves the idea of MMM, not so much the reality and vice versa. They both seem dissatisfied with the relationship (hence indifference and infidelity). If he is a normal, this could be due to either being conflicted (he does love SOME aspects of their union), or a need to define himself/his life by the relationship. If he is a MRN, he would want to remain in a fantasy bond to avoid real intimacy and maintain his facade of a desirable man/family man.
As for urethra-shattering sex, I’ll pass! Perry’s and Celeste’s violent sex scene were not ‘sexy’ to me. I note in S2, Celeste is finding strangers to fill the void. Definite issues with that one.
MB, Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you for sharing your personal story. Your hubby sounds like a kind person, and there is much about you for him to love.
FYC, you always have such thorough and put together responses! As far as my marriage, it is not perfect, but from being here and from what I’ve witnessed with my sister’s relationships, it could be FAR worse.
Re: “We always get what we settle for (and we may never find what we hope for–there are not guarantees)”
This is the main portion of your comment that struck me. Part of me DOES feel like I “settled” for the first male that paid me any attention. (I’ve been with him since age 13.) I have this pervasive feeling that I missed out on something. The “something more” I’ve been looking for most of my life. Then, there’s another part of me that is grateful that I DID miss out on some of those experiences.
As I get older, I’m working on appreciating the 50% that’s excellent and the 40% that’s very good and chalking up the last 10% to “that’s life”
Thank you for the kind compliment.
MB, Thank your for your very kind compliment.
I don’t know if we are ever 100% satisfied. We can always be something more (healthier, stronger, older, younger, wiser, more wealthy, more simple, more responsible and success or more relaxed and unencumbered). We shift and evolve over time. What makes us happy at one point, is quite different than what makes us happy at another.
I think real happiness can be found when we live our values and appreciate ourselves and others in full. I don’t think any one person or thing fulfills us. It is the greater combination of people and experiences that brings real satisfaction, gratitude and joy.
Since no partner is perfect (and neither are we), there will always be 10% (or more in many cases) missing. If that 10% is not critical, then you have done very well!
I also have a sneaking suspicion that elusive things you hope to find in life are within you already just waiting to be discovered and accepted.
FYC, it is the greater combination of people and experiences. I love the way you said all of this.
It hit me when I was reading this though. I don’t have all my joy tied up in my relationship with my husband. That is a piece of the pie of course. You know when I said he loves me more? I just realized, I’m 99% of his pie. (In his belief.) He doesn’t believe he can be happy without me.
MB, Is his need of you for his happiness something you like or does that feel like a burden or overwhelming at times?
FYC, I don’t deserve to be on that pedestal, nor do I like to carry the burden of being responsible for his happiness. I left him six years ago. He wasn’t having it. He would not give up until I came back “home”. I gave in and have resolved myself to the fact that I’ll be with him from now on. (Not a bad thing and I’m not complaining.) He truly did make some changes and they have been long lasting so far.
My biggest regret is not going to university because he didn’t want me to leave. I got married instead. I knew in my heart that if I left, I’d outgrow him, find somebody else and he’d be devastated. I thought I had made peace with it, but it’s possible he’s paid the price many times over in resentment.
As I said in another post, the universe has looked after me quite well. It could just have well been an abusive narc that crossed my path that day at age 13 instead of this man that thinks I walk on water.
MB, You feel resentment or regret about your choice? I understand regrets (we all have them), but they really do inform us how to make better decisions and I love to learn and grow.
I have no use for resentment. FTSSH! I make my choices and it is up to me to make different choices if I do not like the outcome. Resentment cuts you off at the knees. Resentment is like abdicating your life and choices to another. No thank you!
Instead, as HG would say, seize the power!
[HG: that signature phrase really needs to be added in the House of Tudor please.]
It’s never too late to go to university. If you choose not to at any time, there are many ways to learn and grow without formal education. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are/were both college dropouts.
You have the same 24 hours today as you did many todays ago. The future is never guaranteed. So why not pursue what you desire? Seriously. Consciously choose your path. Your relationship can survive it.You have nothing to lose, but resentment.
I know a woman who went to university after all of her children did and became a doctor. I know a lawyer who left his practice at the height of its success to become a nurse (at 50) and he loves it. It really is never too late.
Life throws us enough wrenches in the works, no need to add any of your own. You are a bright and engaging person. You can do anything you choose (within reason). As an age outlier you can probably even get a grant. I promise you, more is possible than you realize and we will all root for you.
It will be added, I am waiting on the designer he’s enjoying the sunshine.
HG, Thank you so much for all of your efforts, we all appreciate you. Please also pass along my compliments to your designer on a job well done.
Thank you.
Hi MB, I just rewatched a couple of S1 episodes and I can see what you were saying about Ed’s feelings about MMM. Maybe he is just a normal with narcissistic traits. I have no idea. I’m not good at this. It could easily be traits that are indicative, but not determinative of NPD as HG often says. I think Nathan may be another MRN (or narcissistic normal). The only characters I am 100% certain are Ns are Perry and his mother. The rest I am just guessing based on trait observation and deduction. I can’t wait for the final accurate answers so I can really learn to see the signs more clearly.
Hi MB. 👋 I relate to a lot of the conversations on here that I read from you. Some of your personal traits you have been willing to share (very similar to mine) and your partner and the things you say about him. What empath category do you fall into?
About the sex. I would wager that at times it is how you describe above with your partner but perhaps not consistent, which is what I’d guess is normal. I always thought that for a majority of us women its about our mindset and sometimes what leads up to the love making that makes for a good session under the covers.
I think I read somewhere that one of your Ns in question is your mum not an IP?
Narc noob, I’m glad you reached out! Don’t let WordPress stop you from interacting. Subscribe to the comments on the posts you comment on so you can follow them. Or, even better, subscribe to ALL the comments and watch your in box fill up! You can reply to any comment by clicking on the reply button from your email.
Anyway, I’m glad that some of my comments resonate with you. It will be fun to get to know each other better.
The “urethra-shattering sex” was a reference to the Big Little Lies homework Prof Tudor assigned. Definitely NOT a description of any sex I’ve ever had and don’t want to have. That was angry sex akin to rape in the series and not enviable in the slightest. Sex with my husband is much more conventional. After 30+ years together, I’m thankful that we actually still have sex and still enjoy it.
The N that brought me to HG was a co-worker, turned friend, turned intimate partner over the course of six years. I had many mysteries surrounding the entanglement that HG cleared up. As my learning progresses, I can spot many more of them including my own father.
The longer you stay, the more puzzle pieces you will find and lock together. Welcome Narc Noob. I hope you will stay. It won’t take long before you’ll have to change your name from Noob to Knower.
MB, not stalking you, promise 😉
I just read your post from last year on your own creature. Funnily enough I had also mentioned this to HG. I resonate with those feelings and the way we were *programmed*, if you will. If a N can’t change maybe the embedded mindset of an empath can’t either? That is not very empowering. The only advantage we have, in this regard, is our self -awareness and they don’t (or so HG says).
I’d be interested to hear if you have done any work on your creature or ideas on further change? I’ll offer some of my own up also but sometimes my comments get lost here so the frustration keeps me from commenting much or getting involved further.
🤗❤
You cannot remove your empathic traits, but you can address your emotional thinking. I do not ‘say’ Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have no self-awareness, they do not have self-awareness for reasons I have made apparent and clear on many occasions.
Narc Noob, if you identify with my toxic shame, first of all I know how it feels and I’m sorry you feel that way too. I called it my creature but didn’t really feel that was an appropriate name for it. I don’t think I ever found a name that actually fit. After reading about toxic shame, finding out how the true self is rejected, and the mechanics of how it might have happened in my own life, I do feel more free. I realized that I was living my life based on beliefs that were bought into by a child. Beliefs that were caused by parents that were ill prepared for the job because of beliefs they bought into when they were children. And the cycle continues. I can only hope that I didn’t unwittingly instill the shame of generations into my own children. When we know better, we do better.
I think it was finally having the courage to turn on the closet light and stare the monster in the eye that took its power away. I’ve always been too afraid to do that and honestly never thought I could. The funny thing is…I didn’t purposefully do it. No therapy. It revealed itself to me organically and in a way that wasn’t intimidating at all. I was terrified that once I peeled back all the layers of what I’ve done and pretended my entire life to keep it hidden and “that” was all that was left, I would be nothing. Less than nothing. I realized that the layers ARE me and the belief about the creature inside were not true. My “true” self, my “lost” self, was a lie that I bought into. I became the woman that I am despite the lie, not because of it.
I am not healed by a loooong shot, but I can honestly say for the first time in my life that I don’t hate myself. I can’t go as far as love and absolute acceptance yet and I may never get there. But then again, I never believed I could get past self-loathing either.
Thank you for “listening”. I look forward to hearing back from you.
MB, Beautifully articulated.
Thank you FYC
Narc Noob, I realized I left out an answer. HG Tudorscoped me a Standard Carrier Empath. After reading ‘Chained’ it’s apparent that I have high number of codependent traits as well. Not enough to be full on CoD though. Standard is where I lie on the spectrum.
FYC
“I also have a sneaking suspicion that elusive things you hope to find in life are within you already just waiting to be discovered and accepted.“
Yasssss 👏🏻👏🏻 . I tap in and out of it tho Lol !!
Hi FYC, I didn’t say or mean that Ed’s behaviors were excusable because of being sex deprived. I said that it is pathetic and gross in which is why I am uncomfortable to be in a receiving end of that kind of attention. It is a different kind of attention that is not attractive like a narcissist’s seductive stares because this is arising from a biological neediness which is far from sexy but more about a sign of deprivation and desperation. I said that it is ‘also’ MMM’s fault which in my English as a second language way of expressing means that she plays a big role for causing it but I didn’t mean to say that she ‘is’ the cause or the only cause. Of course not all sex deprived husband’s act like him. I agree that we choose how to behave and we are responsible for our own choices. I still think that it’s unfair for MMM to not address his needs even though she was well aware of it.
Lol, I cannot agree.
People’s marriages go all kinds of directions. I’ve had people tell me I should have sex with my husband. Honestly I think that’s creepy and I’ve never reacted well.
Maybe we will work on that, maybe not, but it’s certainly up to both of us as individuals to stay married or not whether I do or do not have sex with him. Sex isn’t everything. It isn’t nothing. It’s sex.
I used to have sex with him all the time. He abused my trust in some ways. Possibly I did his. This isn’t fairy tale land, it’s my life. If he creeps on other women as a result, that’s on him. If he decides to pursue other things, that’s up to him.
I honestly never understood the whole “marriage rules” perspective of a lot of people. It’s idealistic maybe. My husband is welcome to tell me he wants to go to therapy any day or have a heart to heart about how he feels.
He won’t.
I do agree that it is unfair to not fulfill someone’s true needs and also insist they can’t do that some other way. But as the show said, “cheating is one form of betrayal”. I am likely in the minority but sex seems less important than emotional connection to me. People like to say cheating is the true infidelity.
Hi NunyaBiz, I can see how my statement can be provocative. If I were to be more mindful I would have put qualifiers. I do understand that marriages are not made equal. But in MMM and Ed’s case, why is she even married to a guy that she’s not sexually attracted to? It is hard for me to understand and hence I made a very careless statement. From my perception, Ed seemed to try to be there for her but she’s too obsessed with being annoyed with her ex and her ex’s new wife who doesn’t really pay that much attention to her except when she’s not nice to Bonnie or when it comes to their child together. She needs to pay more attention to her own family.
** Gasps and clutches pearls **
Someone said the F word!!! (and it’s not fuck).
I can honestly say that I have always enjoyed the diversity of thoughts and ways of expression here in this blog. Never have I seen a comment that made me gasp and clutch my pearls. We don’t all have to be alike or talk alike. I don’t owe anyone an explanation for choosing to refrain from whatever word or choosing to use any word.
MommyP
It was a joke because I have been accused of blaming people and saying it’s their fault (even though I didn’t use the word fault). I don’t wear pearls and pretty much nothing shocks me (so that was the humour part). You may not appreciate humour coming from me but you don’t have to take it personal. Once again, I have no issue with you.
Hi NarcAngel, thank you for clarifying it for me. I’m sorry for misinterpreting your joke. I didn’t understand it so I looked up what “clutches pearls’ mean and the way I thought you may have meant was making fun of me for not using F words and that you think I am too demure or something. I was not aware that you used to be accused of blaming people and the f word is fault. This was the snappy comment that I apologized to you to when you sent me your condolences. I thought that you were so sweet to send me a thoughtful message so maybe I misinterpreted your joke. But I still didn’t understand what you meant until now. Actually I really like your sense of humor whenever I understand your jokes. 😅
Mommypino,
I saw your post on your mom and something happened before I could write to you and now don’t know where it is posted.
I’m so sorry for the loss of your mom! That’s great that you were able to be with her and that you have your relatives with you! I am sending you a hug.
Thank you Getting There. Thank you for the hug. 💕. I was lucky that I was able to take care of her even for just a few days. For me the most sentimental part was whenever she asked me to comb her hair and put oil in it and tie it in a bun. Every time I combed her hair I imagine her used to comb my hair and put it in a pony tail before going to school. I’m thankful I got to return the favor even though it was just a little bit compared to how much she did for me.
I have not seen the post about your mom, MP, I hope your travels have been ok. I will catch up on reading and post there.
Thank you NunyaBiz. The post was just a small mention of my mom passing away when Oracle said that she hopes I am well. The travels went well and I will bring her ashes with me back to the US. I do have lots of regrets but I know that it is my ET. For as early as I could remember she has always told me or asked me that someday when I am able to go to the US to take her with me so that we can live there together. I have tried to make plans several times but each time she acted up it scared me that she will make my life horrible in the US and I was unable to make her dream happen for her. That is actually why I am alive, she thought that my dad will take her to the US if they will have a child together. I do acknowledge in my head what she truly is but a big part of me wishes that she was normal and not so difficult and how wonderful it would have been to live with her in the US and have her play with my kids and take her to the beautiful places there that I know she would have loved. But I know that those thoughts are illogical but I am missing her and feeling bad for her and I really love her. But I am fine and will be fine. 💕
MP, I saw that post to Oracle, I had thought there was another one somewhere and was still looking around, thank you for telling me. Of course it is normal for you to feel the way you do, I know you know that. I think maybe there are two ways to grieve the loss of your mother. I’m so sorry for your loss and and so glad you got to see her.
“Someone said the F word!!! (and it’s not fuck).”
I’m pretty sure it is about my response, which I stand by, for good and well thought out reason.
Nunya Biz
No, the clutches pearls comment was not directed to you in any way. I don’t even know what you are referring to. I have explained in a comment to Mommy P. There are a few posts lately that I’ve found misinterpreted (and not just mine).
NA, I agree with you. It’s a bit like walking on eggshells in here lately. Didn’t we all want to get away from that noise? Let’s lighten the mood up in here! *throws purple and silver glitter*
HG, turn up the tunes!
Thank you NA, i just was confused, I appreciate your response.
Speaking of the f word, NA, I am at work and the owner’s daughter kept disagreeing with me about whose fault something was because I say it’s mine and she says it’s hers, haha. I need to get my daughter to hang out with her.
Agreed! good breakdown on him.
Seeing Renata (she’s. AWFUL.) delights me. She’s pure viciousness and Dern plays her so well. Watching her spew vitriol and the ‘I can’t believe it’s not butter!’ look of shock on the faces of anyone in her path is comic gold. Please writers give her ALL of the scenes. I’d love to see an analysis of Renata, too.. And Streep’s character (name escaping me now) she’s… SOMETHING . I need to watch her more to decide. This show is ripe with cluster Bs for the picking. Another stellar show to analyze next – The Affair. The characters on there- wow. Allison I couldn’t decide if she was a super empath, a borderline or a narcissist. Well I’m getting ahead of myself lol
My LMR was bullied as a kid too
(big fuckin surprise there omg)
And he also has a big attitude about being pushed around. He. Won’t. MOVE.
On anything. EVER.
I’m just going to watch all of the episodes and come back later.
I have not voted but I have him pegged as an MMRN.
S1:E2
At the beach Ed points his finger at Madeline and says: I will not be anybody’s runner up; you need to hear that.
This indicates a competitiveness between Nathan and Ed and Ed won’t take second place. (triangulation) He has to be numero uno.
S2:E3
Madeline’s infidelity is out of the bag and she and Ed are in couple’s counseling.
The Counselor (a.k.a. Madam Shrink*) turns to Ed and states: We will turn to your betrayal in a minute. Adultery is one form of betrayal, indifference is another.
Indifference is a bad sign and indicative of NPD.
*That is what Madeline called the Counselor and this is indicative of contempt.
I think Ed is a Standard Empath. He has some degree of dependency on his wife, who is controlling, triangulates him and withdraws intimacy from him (cheats on him but he seems to be in denial of it) but he also seems to be able to defend his boundaries and point the behaviors he does not like better than a codependent.
Im onto the last epie in season 1 and hoping i can buy season 2 on itunes. Im all over the place with these characters. Ed i thought was a midranger bc he quite often is in “poor me” mode and never thinks hes enough but the more i watch there are reasons behind that which come to light with madelines affair. He senses there are voids in the relationship and that him and his wife arent as connected as hed like them to be. Hes the so called “nice guy” and feels hes boring to his wife. I put standard empath but he could be a saviour the way hes always trying to go behind the scenes and be the patch up man.
I found it so funny the scene with him and nathan lol those two are funny around each other.
He reminds me of ashton kutchner!
There was a scene where madeline and him discussed their younger daughter not going to renatas daughters bday and he didnt seem very empathetic of jane and her son ziggy which is why originally i felt he was maybe a midranger but i now think hes a standard empath or saviour empath.
Not sure how he will react if he finds out about madelines affair.
Dearest HG: I say he is a Super Empath. Because, although he is very patient, If anyone pushes him too far, I believe they will pay dearly. I have watched season 1 and 4 episodes thus far. I plan to finish season 1 entirely by tonight, which is 3 more episodes, I believe.
I also was thinking super empath but he’s a bit too creepy.
Twisted Heart: I like Ed. He just came into the marriage in a different way than his wife. He wanted it all in his marriage, including physical passion, and his wife wanted safety. He knows that bargains are made in relationships all the time, but this bargain hurts him even more over time, as he witnesses her having passion about just about anything in their world, except him. The infidelity is a crushing blow. Yet, he is still there for her. She needs to figure out a way to have passion for her own husband, since she likes figuring things out so much. Not once has he come home and she has any type of intimate surprise for him, or costume, or whispered suggestion…just nothing, but taking him to a place to hug strange people. That even she admits was a busted adventure. Yuk. Yuk. Yuk.
I voted that he’s a Normal. There were times that he seems empathic but he doesn’t go out of his way to help or be involved unless it is about his family. There were also times when he was very cruel to Madeline after he found out what she did. Some of the things that he did and said to her were just to be hurtful and very narcissistic (triangulation, silent treatment, character assassination). It almost made me think that he’s a narcissist except for the times when he showed what seems to be genuine love for his wife. I think that an empathic Normal wouldn’t do those things that he did. An empathic Normal would be angry but he or she would take more proactive actions that aims on fixing the relationship or just withdraw from the relationship than stay and enact a prolonged period of punishing their wife or husband who already apologized and trying to make amends.
I’ve only seen two episodes, I will watch at least three more by tomorrow evening. I can’t say yet, but I strongly suspect he is a narcissist. It’s hard to determine, but I think Madeline is a super empath. She drives me crazy with her narcissism though because her jealousy is ridiculous and clouds her judgement of things, she doesn’t treat her oldest daughter as a separate person enough imo, and she almost seems fuel-seeking with wanting to do a play with f-bombs. But I think ultimately she cares about what is right and fair and she gets narcissistic about it sometimes. I think she also has genuine empathy, where I think Ed’s is fake and Madeline can feel it. A couple of things Madeline said made me laugh, like “Everyone’s making me angry!” and I cried the first episode when sh told her daughter “people don’t tell you you lose your kids”, I have said that exact phrase before. I would like to see more hugs and “I love you’s” I think and I wonder still because she said “I don’t like to be touched” to the yoga teacher.
I think Ed is one of those crazy-making narcs who acts like he’s the good one all the time. And I think Madeline is a super and she feels bad toward Ed but he wants her to.
By the way NunyaBiz, what do you think of Meryl Streep’s character. Isn’t she horrible. Meryl Streep is doing an amazing job portraying her role. She must have a lot of knowledge on how narcissists act from being close friends with Weinstein. Is her character close to your MIL?
I answered this comment, MP, but I think it ended up somewhere else.
OMG NunyaBiz I’m glad you mentioned that. The ‘I don’t like to be touched’ did make me wonder if Madeline is a narc. But every time I start to suspect that she is a narc, I see or remember how she hates injustice and does something to help the underdog like a Super Empath with a cape and when she stopped her car to cry after learning of Jane’s past. Also when Madeline met Jane and told Jane that she knows that Jane is a good person because she has a knack for sniffing out good people, it made me remember the article ‘Narc Magnet’ and remembered my dad telling me that on the day that him and my MRE sister and my Normal or Empath SIL picked me up at the airport on the first time that they have ever met me in person, my dad told me that as soon as they saw me walking on the tv monitor that shows the passengers that arrived, my MRE sister told them that I stood out out of all of the people on screen. She told him that there is something about me that makes me stand out with the way that I was walking and the expression on my face. And now I think that it was her ‘empath radar’ that made me stand out in her mind. The article Narc Magnet makes me give that a red flag when somebody says to an empath that the empath stood out from the rest or they noticed the empath. Because Mid-Rangers are unaware that it’s their natural antenna for seeking fuel from empaths that make them notice the empath, they will usually say or admit that to the empath or to someone else because they probably don’t even understand why they took special notice of the empath. I do think that Madeline is very highly narcissistic but she has a lot of good things about her. She is extremely selfish and even the way that she carries out her empathic traits is very selfish. She might be a Super Empath indeed which if HG says that she is a Super Empath, it will now clarify a lot of my questions on what a Super Empath really is. It is not a hierarchy on which is a kinder or more empathic person, it’s more about the ability or tendency to dim the empathic traits to be able to have a battle with the narcissist. One example here is when Madeline has a battle against Renata for ostracizing Jane’s son. Madeline’s strong sense of justice will never tolerate such a thing so she competed by inviting the other kids to go to Disney on Ice. She dimmed her empathy over Renata’s daughter who was just a child who got hurt by some of her friends going to Disney on Ice instead of her birthday but Madeline gave more priority to defending the boy that was being ostracized and giving a message to Renata that what she did is not ok. In my opinion Jane has much stronger empathic traits than Madeline.
Yeah, MP, I don’t see it as a hierarchy. The biggest reason I do not is because
1. I feel plenty disordered (understatement)
2. I don’t think attracting narcs is my favorite idea of a contest
3. According to HG I am a Super/Carrier, which to me feels a bit like a conundrum of dissatisfaction and dissonance, so whatever
In addition, like I said before, it is all spectrum. I have lower super traits than others probably anyway and plus the other schools and cadres I have balance it all completely differently than it would for someone else. I have also strong Standard empath traits that cause me to worry a lot and back down sometimes. I don’t think anything is black and white, anywhere on any topic pretty much, but certainly not on personality and reactions and interactions which are highly complex. Besides, if I could pick a school or cadre out of all it would be Magnet, which I am a small amount of.
For episode 5, I really like Madeline (but I also like to watch all of the other empath characters). I disagree with some of her stuff and I have a different personality from her, but I feel so far she is empath. As far as your example with Renata I can relate to my recent story… my son got kicked out of a swim meet from the swim team we’ve been on for four or five years due partly to his association with a boy who I didn’t see anything wrong with. I was offended that the boy would be treated like that, and I won’t allow my son to be treated like that, so I told them off over email and pulled my kid out. A good portion of the reason is because I felt they were targeting the other kid and trying to make my kid out to be the “better one” in some way, but still being inappropriate all the way around. The other kid’s mom was upset, but kept him in for the season. I’m pretty sure my withdrawal caused a ruckus and rethinking of the whole thing and I did get an apologetic phone call, which I ignored. I’m pretty sure they switched approach, but I gave them an opportunity to do it sooner and they didn’t, so we miss out now, but to me it was worth it. It was a tough decision, but if I was that other kid’s mom I would have taken him out. I just cannot stand to see him targeted like that and she argued some but then rationalized staying.
I feel I’ve done the CoD role though. I’ve no judgment of it, I feel I can see and relate to almost any aspect of those things. I also feel like a narc a lot, but I can see where some of my differences are. I dunno. I’m interested to see the results and the rest of the character development.
Mommypino: I think he had the right to be cruel. If that little bit of not pandering to her in a touchy-feely way, after she had thrashed her body about intimately with that Director or Playwright or whatever he was, in a way that her husband intuitively knows she does not behave with him, her own husband, is considered to be cruel. But, he would have been more cruel, or judgement seeking, if that is considered cruel behaviour, if he had packed up and ghosted her the moment he knew, and served her with divorce papers on the grounds of infidelity and adultery, immediately. I have not looked into it, but divorce on the grounds of adultery does not appear to fare well with the adulterer. All that I do know is that I have seen movies, whereby men and women have paid someone to perform detective work to catch their spouse committing adultery, or even pay someone surreptitiously to seduce their spouse to commit adultery and to then record and document it all as evidence, all to negatively impact divorce proceedings against their spouse. And art often imitates real life. And, she should be thankful that she did not pass on to her husband a STI or a STD or another man`s child, or that she did not end up in a place like Planned Parenthood for a procedure, and so far, he is still with her and their daughter, and keeping the household intact. I did not find that he acted cruelly to her at all. I believe her when she says she will not make a mistake in the area of adultery against him, again. He just is not that into her, because of what she did. Cause and Effect. And feelings have to work themselves out, one way or the other, but not necessarily on her, the culprit`s, schedule. So, I saw no cruelty. But, I do think there is bad blood boiling…
Hi PSE, I think that Ed had a legitimate reason to be cruel or mean to his wife. That is why I didn’t vote that he is a narc. I just voted that he is a Normal. I think that he’s very angry and punitive. But I think that an empath would not engage in a prolonged period of punishing and hurting someone who has already apologized and not engaging in a battle to consciously hurt him. But I agree that I think that it’s pathetic the way she treated her husband. She even tried to make a fool out of him by telling him that he didn’t hear them right when he overheard his stepdaughter say that she had sex with the other guy. The way that she strung the other guy along was pathetic as well. That is why they ended up in an accident together, she wouldn’t give ‘them’ closure or him clarity as to where he really stands in her life. She’s very highly narcissistic. A very selfish person. I admire that she fought for Jane’s son that was being ostracized by Renata and I believe that she had real empathy towards Jane. I just think that she is very selfish. But she has a lot of good points as well. I am interested to find out what classification HG will put Madeline in.
MommyPino. All crimes are not the same. And because one forgives an act, does not mean that one has too accept the person who commits the act, nor stay with the person that commits the act. One can easily say, I forgive you, now I shall continue the rest of my life away from you. That option is available as well. Compared to what I have seen and heard and have been told in real life away from this series, her treatment from Ed, under the circumstances, is quite light. Actions speak louder than words, and action wise, he is still with her, thus far…. Adultery feels like murder to almost all men. Except for the few exceptions and outliers, it practically kills them.
The inside of their woman`s body is like their safe place in this world. If they do not feel it is safe inside her any longer, it is a tall order to get that man to feel good about his woman any longer. Especially, if he loves her, and is not just using her. And even when using a woman, men overall still desire that safety.. Truth. Perhaps inconvenient, but Truth, nevertheless. If I am wrong about this, I welcome any and all male readers to help me out here.
PSE, I completely agree with you based on my own personal experience. (You may have seen my comment re: my husband’s affair.) A woman has a more difficult time forgiving the emotional attachment aspect of the affair whereas the actual sex act itself is unforgivable by men. Maybe they can’t bear the thought of another man in their “territory”. (Speaking in an unconscious, evolutionary sense of course. I don’t consider myself anybody’s territory or them mine!)
MB: I agree. They (Most men) do not like anyone entering their territory, if we call choose to call it so, which is the inside of their woman`s body, for whatever reason we or they rationalize or justify or ignore or protest, or even disbelieve this fact, They abhor it, and no matter how many times, nor how many women tell the man that they are supposedly in a relationship: you did it, so I did it, and I forgive you, so you must forgive me., and it is only fair…Hahahaha. It is largely not going to happen. He is disgusted. It is revolting to him Like it or not. (Most men). We live better in this life, the more we understand each other, realistically. And, to know how far we can all go, before situations become irreparable damaged
PSE and MB, I agree with both of you on the difference between how men and women take their spouse’s infidelity.
By the way, just a trivia which I think is related to this, if you look up the legal definition of adultery in California it says: Adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than his or her spouse.
If you look up the legal definition of adultery in the Philippines it says: The crime committed by a married woman who shall have sexual intercourse with a man not her husband, and by the man who has carnal knowledge of her, knowing her to be married.
So in the Philippines, it is only adultery if the married woman was the one who committed infidelity. If it is the married man, it is not considered adultery, they made up a separate name for it: concubinage.
The legal definition of adultery versus concubinage is that adultery has longer jail sentences than concubinage. Adultery can also be proven through ‘circumstantial evidence whereas concubinage can only be proven by proving without reasonable doubt that the infidelity of the married man was done in a very scandalous manner and/or the married man has been sharing a dwelling with the mistress. A married man having a one night stand with a woman who is not his wife is not considered as concubinage. A married woman having a one night stand with a man who is not her husband is considered as adultery.
Also, if the husband catches his wife in the act of having sex with another man and out of anger shoots his wife, he has a high chance of escaping jail time because he is considered to have suffered from ‘temporary insanity’ for seeing or witnessing his wife having sex with another man. The same temporary insanity defense is not available for women who catches their husbands having sex with another woman because the lawmakers in the Philippines who made the laws believe that it doesn’t have the same mental effect on women than it has on men.
Women’s right advocates here on the Philippines have been trying to change those laws for a very long time but it still hasn’t changed as of now.
Oh and also to add aside from the legal differences of adultery versus concubinage, the moral difference or moral perception difference also here in the Philippines is that the Bible says that ‘adultery’ is a sin but the Bible doesn’t mention ‘concubinage’ as a sin. Huge difference in societal moral perceptions with just the use of different words.
MommyPino. I am aware that the JudeaChristian definition of adultery is any male that is not her husband being intimate with a married woman, and a married woman being intimate with any man other than her husband. Both are committing adultery. A married man being intimate with a SINGLE woman who, in addition, is not with another man in an intimate relationship or betrothal/engagement is NOT adultery. A single unencumbered woman being intimate with a married man is NOT adultery. A married man being intimate with another married woman is adultery for both. And a man can have more than one wife at the same time. Now, back to the United States law. Now, in the United States, he can have more than one wife, only by divorcing and remarrying, but not simultaneously. He has to constantly discard. Forced discard. With a slew of ex-wives in the background. I do not know how adultery is defined in the legal court system, overtly or covertly in the United States. But I know the historical and Biblical definitions above and therefore I use the word adultery and infidelity. I rarely use the word cheating, because of how misleading that word is. And U.S. law has its roots in Biblical teaching, and common law, largely. Feminism has called it cheating when a married man has dealings with a single unencumbered woman. It is clever to call it cheating, because it is not a legal definition and is therefore not investigated closely by most people, and probably is hinting at the wedding vow, instead of directing one to look up the legal definition of adultery in one`s country and region according to the law. And feminism, many people forget, is also created and pushed and supported by many powerful men, but with the face of women largely in the forefront. So, feminism is a duplicitous construct that has both helped women in some ways and has hurt women in some ways. And it has helped men in some ways and has hurt men in some ways. For example, Ivana Trump did not want to divorce Donald Trump over Marla Maples, but Ivana`s girlfriends and even some powerful feminist leaders stepped in TOLD Ivana to divorce him, She did. Donald did not want to divorce Ivana over the single girlfriend, Marla Maples, but it all went down. Public Pressure pushed for that divorce, in the United States. And that divorce hurt the children involved as well. In general, I believe feminism has helped women more than it has helped men, in the past few decades. What definition of adultery has standing in the court systems in fact, I do not know. Men make a mistake in making vows when they wed that they will forsake all others, when that is a modern concept of marriage. Women feel forced to enforce that vow and leave or divorce the man if he then breaks that vow, even if he only dealt with single and not other married women. If that wedding vow is then forced upon the men during divorce court, it is mens` fault for making such a contract, if the wedding vow is actually a legal contract. And it is the women`s fault as well if they know the historical definition and biblical definition of adultery, but pretend they do not and thus take advantage of the man, if he is unaware. I do not know if wedding vows are legal constructs, in the United States, or if wedding vows are viewed on a case by case basis, and secretly dependent upon the formal knowledge of the involved parties.. Women should teach their sons about all this, especially, unless for the notion of what they believe is the greater good, they allow their sons to believe that one woman forever, after marriage, is a vow their sons should make, and face the negative consequences if they fail to live up to it , and even lose their property and children, I guess. History, Beliefs, Socialism, Politics, Reproduction Management, Feminism, Pride, etc. all in one pot. If I had a son, I would teach him all this and encourage him to make a more realistic vow, and even have a prenup. Women usually have an advantage in divorce court, but I would still teach this to a daughter as well, and advise her to make a personal vow with her potential husband and even have a prenup. I hate the word, prenup,and prefer the term, wedding contract. If I had a son or daughter, I would teach them both that a married man having relations with a single woman is not adultery, and for them to make their wedding contracts based on historical biblical, and not just modern information. Then it is up to them to make their own wedding contracts, to the best of their abilities. But, most people do not know, or pretend to not know these other definitions. Everything is summed up as cheating. And, everyone has to pay the price. Even the children that are involved. And everyone cares about the children, yes?
Hi thank you PSE. I agree with most of what you said and understand your perspective.
Hmmm, this is my personal thoughts on this. I like the legal definition of adultery in California compared to what we have in the Philippines. You are very wise to bring up the Judea Christian definition as that was I think the source of the law in the Philippines regarding adultery since this is a very Catholic country although it’s not a theocracy, laws are heavily influenced by the Catholic religion of the huge majority of the population. However when we start to talk about legal rights of people, I think that the religious beliefs should be removed from the laws. In all honesty, I actually believe that marriage should only be a religious ceremony with no legal ramifications. And the aspect of adultery should also be decided based on the specific religion that the concerned parties belong to. I think that people should be able to legally bind themselves as domestic partners (however they want to) and they can stipulate in contracts how they would want to deal with cheating and how that would affect their partnership and the other aspects such as their properties together and children or pets etc. I think that marriage should just be plain ceremonies while the legalities of the union should be entered to and designed separately by the people involved. That way nobody encroaches in people’s religious freedoms and no religion encroaches on people’s individual rights. Just my personal opinion.
Regarding feminism, I don’t regard myself as one. I don’t want to belong in a box where I am pressured to think in a certain way to conform to that group. I want equality but I also want acknowledgement and respect of our differences.
Good one!
Thing I’m having trouble with is, my daughter pointed a little boy and said he choked her
I don’t think I’d invite him to her birthday party either
I would totally believe my daughter
And yet on the other side of things if I was MMM and I didn’t think it was if he did it I would be outraged for Ziggy being ostracized on his first week of school
Lol
Personally I don’t think Renata OR Madeline are narcissists
Have you changed your views it also since you posted this ?
WokeAF,
I will have to re-watch the the series again. I also didn’t get to watch the last two or three episodes of season 2. If I will have time I might cast my final votes this weekend.
He seems normal to me, but what do I know 🤷🏻♀️
You know or will know lots Kelly D from reading here.
That’s my goal, HG, thank you
I’d say he’s a normal. He acts narcissistic sometimes and empathic sometimes. He doesn’t seem overtly emotional In the positive or negative range..even when cheated on.
Jessrnny: From my observations of normals, they will immediately leave or toss out a woman that commits adultery in the marriage, on one end of the reactionary spectrum, and on the other end, they will kill or have the woman and/or her `lover` killed. Let`s not forget about these scenarios beyond what goes on in this series.
Ed does end their relationship and leaves. He doesn’t stay away. Seems that he loves her and would rather exist with her than apart. But his immediate reaction was to leave.
Jessrnny: What episode does he leave? I am at Season 2 episode 5 and he is still there. How many episodes are in season 2??? I thought I was up to date…. If he leaves, he has the right. It is a personal decision, but he has the right legally and morally to leave.
After he finds out he says “we’re done.” He leaves. His initial reaction was to leave. He returned.
There’s no disengagement trigger that’s why he has not left yet.
He puts up with too much of Madeline’s shit to be a normal.
Claire: Indeed.
Ed is a narcissist. S:2,E:4- Projects onto and criticizes Madeline constantly, gives her the silent treatment, triangulates with the children, withholds sex, gets into a fist fight easily, sullen all the time, and his comments don’t make sense -like about the pretending going on at a costume party.
Hi kel…wow looks like we see more sides of him in season 2
Hi Chihuahuamum,
Maybe so, I don’t know what happened in season one, but he seems like a lesser to me.
Kel, I am not caught up, but I agree. I think he’s a real dick so far and this is what drives me nuts in marriages is the narc makes everyone else look bad. He seems very emotionally withholding but she’ll get the blame for it. In episode two he could have easily comforted her about her past losses with Nathan, but he didn’t and left her to feel bad even though she tried to reassure him but then he used her very explanation to make Nathan feel bad. He wasn’t willing to give her the satisfaction of agreement or understanding, but used it later as though he did.
Nunya biz, I think you’re spot on.
Hi nunyabiz….funny username btw 😄 i keep going back and forth with ed he seems to do the whole pity play(midranger) a lot but at the same time he does go behind the scenes to patch things or do damage control. Its hard to say tho bc dirty angels can do that as well even if they dont have an audience it makes them feel superior being the “big” one. I do think hes very insecure and senses he was a consolation choice. I think him and madeline are just so different and he takes that as not being interesting enough or passionate enough for her. In reality sometimes its better with two different people as far as energy levels and temperments they can balance each other out. I do think she loves him but shes also has a high energy and needs to put more of that energy into her marriage and less on the outside world.
I understand where you are coming from too, CM, I watched four episodes and changed my mind a few times already. He is funny and comes across very sweet. I just suspect, but I also see him as fairly self-absorbed. Like the costume thing, it seems about him and not about romancing her. It’s maybe self-amusing? If it turns out he is N I think it speaks partly to why people don’t always leave, it gets complicated and there’s so much involved. But maybe he isn’t, I know I have to watch more to see what happens.
I just love all the actors, he is a good actor and I’ve always been a Laura Dern fan. I’m trying to hold back a little on these threads (reading and my opinion in the moment), I think I will be done with season 1 by tomorrow night. HG came up with a good one, I’m so into it.
Hi nunya biz…yes ive really enjoyed this series and am very glad HG brought it to his blog!
Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on the characters 🙂
I’m glad I got alerted to the show for sure, it’s very fun. I finished season 1, so I feel more caught up to what is happening and to have some opinion : ) I haven’t met the mother in law yet.
What you said about two people balancing each other out I think is very much true. Starting S2 tonight.
Madeline’s husband -Ed .
Voted: Empathic but not an empath
Had some trouble figuring out if he was an empath, or just empathic
Very tricky for me.
Seems intense sometimes , and defin very sensitive and empathetic, repulsed by deception, and picks up on shady ppl and behaviours. Went to therapy but doesn’t seem to Take on the role of “fixer”.
It was more of a process of elimination for me , he has some carrier tendencies , but just doesn’t fit the bill for full on empath that I can tell. Perhaps this is the make version of an empath and I’m not educated enough on it, nor have experience with it that I know of.
^*male version of an empath
From what I’ve seen so far clearly an empath. I don’t imagine CD. Not a contagion as he doesn’t show any distress at Ziggy’s situation, just a little annoyance about Madeline talking about it so much. He cares for Madeline deeply and wants her to reciprocate. I would imagine a normal wouldn’t put up with that too much. He is reasoned and well balanced to an extent, but clearly hurt by how Madeline treats him.
I’m going to opt for standard at present. I don’t see him as the type to go supernova, but I’ll watch out for that…
Alexis. I can see him going Super Nova. Those quiet peaceable types often have built up passion that they constantly knowingly and purposefully restrain. Still waters run deep, as the wise proverbs say. Let`s see what the writers have in store for us, regarding Ed.
It’s so much harder assessing through a limited amount of observation. Would you agree PSE?
I need to feel the reality of their reactions and response and look out for those little ‘tell tale’ signs and feel that first silent treatment. Some are so damn obvious from the outset whilst others need a bit more work. I’m really enjoying it though and reading through the differing/ similarities in opinions though. I just need to work out how I can watch series 2 now!
Alexis: Do you have a problem locating season 2? Just type into Google: How to watch Season 2 of Big Little Lies in __________? or type: How to watch Season 2 of Big Little Lies for free on-line in ____________? And just fill in the blank with your personal location, and see what options come up for you.
cheers I’ll take a look
Maybe I’m surrounded by a whole bunch of narcs and empaths and don’t realize it, but most everybody seems normal on the series to me. I have a really hard time judging folks because it’s just not something I do. I’m a live-and-let-live, you-do- you-and-I’ll-do-me kind of person.
Really, the only people that I am 100% on is Perry is a narc (I’m going with LMR) and Madeline is a Super Savior Empath, 100% sure Ziggy is an Empath, 80% sure Jane is an Empath of some type.
I see no narcs but Perry.
Everybody else seems like normals. Maybe my “normal” is fucked up?
(I’ve watched Season 1 all but the last episode. Maybe more will be revealed moving forward.)
There is also the possibility that I’m not very good at field work. 😂
Goodness I need to rewatch again. Everyone is saying that Madeline is a super empath. I had her down as a mid range – angel with a dirty face. The sort of person who always wanted to be friends with me and I would previously have readily accepted. That said I did warm to her a little as the series went on. Hmmm
AS2016, I thought she was a narc on the first episode, but it became clear to me that was not the case fairly quickly. SEs are highly narcissistic and can be tricky. Watch again. She demonstrates much empathy.
I will definitely watch again. There were just a few suspect things too, e.g the way she made friends with Jane really quickly. But on the other hand she never seemed to triangulate her friends with each other and does rush to help. But I’ve known narcs to do thst too because they want to be involved in the drama. She keeps those she doesn’t like constantly painted black. But then I do that to a certain extent, If someone is a bitch lol. I need to understand more about SEs. Cannot wait for HG to give his views. It’s killing me!
I actually know a MR female narc. They’re poisonous , you can feel it coming off them even when they’re well and truly presenting the facade. The cognitive empathy is more like Mary Louise- carefully spoken. They flatter their friends incessantly when they’re painted white – there’s no REAL talk , no depth.
Madeleine defin has narc traits but she’s nothing at all like the female narc I know –
AS2016, maybe his analysis will be sooner rather than later.
It won’t be until all characters have been voted on.
How many characters are we voting on? This could take a while. Patience is not a virtue I possess!
Already indicated that MB.
MB
The original post shows 10 pics. I assume those are the targets but could be wrong.
You are correct, NA.
Thank you NA. You are so observant! My impatience clouded my powers of observation. Looks like it will be a while. In the meantime, I’ll be practicing my patience.
MB: Ziggy: What a casting. Perfect.
The same actor plays Young Sheldon
Mb…i also see madeline as a savior super empath. If she were a midranger she wouldnt of taken jane and ziggy under her wing and stood up to renalta. She also would not be concerned about losing her daughters and trying to connect with her eldest daughter. Shes definitely an empath!
Dearest HG: Is Young Sheldon an HG Approved series??
Yes.
Alex: When it is time to access Madeline, the blue touch paper may light up in here! 😀
Oh yes, it will.
If as some suspect that Ed is an N and Madeline an SE. I just don’t see much of this dynamic going on?
‘The Super Empath will remain, wanting to fix the narcissist, exhibiting again the same empathic traits of others on the empathic spectrum, but again being made of sterner stuff, their descent towards numbness and malfunction is far slower than that of the empath. The Super Empath will keep providing the fuel but deteriorates at a slower rate.’
Not stated on S2 yet though…
I have also seen N parents try to ‘connect’ with their children, much of her connection is more about controlling her and ensuring she achieves what Madeline didn’t. We all want our children to achieve more than us, but there are ways and means..
HG pllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee hurry up and post the others. I will get down on my knees and beg!
And you did utter those three little words today
The other characters will follow at the relevant pace.
Gaaagh not sure which I prefer, to know the answers ASAP or your authoritative yet gentle stance
I had suspected you were releasing the characters upon there being enough evidence to make a determination, is that correct HG?
I am releasing the characters in the order I have determined and at the rate I have established and adhere to.
MB I just can’t see Madeline as anything but an N. She really sees her kids as an extension of herself.
And I can hear her utter lots of HGs ‘little acons’
Sorry, Ed MacKenzie is not on my radar. He’s just a nobody to me.
And yet he speaks so well of you, CKH.
When you first posted about Bonnie I had a bit of a blonde moment and thought you were asking about Zoe Kravitz not a character from a series. Was about to respond that she was an empath who recently married an N and has a father who is also likely one of your kind.
I don’t do tv series, it does my head in having to wait for the next episode. I’m too impatient.
Great idea though! Next game RL examples…?😉😁
Very interesting Narc Noob
I’m a bitsy similar but great exceptions too. A series needs to have one character’s or couple’s name, or my heart is just blank. One hero.
Jane Eyre – Brilliant
Sense and Sensibility? …. (loud silence)
Emma – loved her!
Downton Abbey? – Forgot it after one minute.
Game of Thrones? What is that.
Sherlock? He’s my Main Man!
I guess my brain is warped around the Name of One,
for some funny reason.
👍 Games of Thrones… Never seen it either. 😆
cb and Narc Boob. I have a nagging suspicion that I am missing something by not watching Game of Thrones. I saw an ad and it looked so dreary. What if we are missing something with that series I loved Downton Abbey, when it came out, but when Dan Stevens abruptly decided to leave the show, and the writers whipped up that weird death to cover up his leaving, I stopped watching.
Narc Boob: You can watch all the episodes of TV series these days at your own pace, once they have concluded, or even binge them. So, Big little lies is already out, and so you can watch back to back now, instead of waiting week by week. I just finished all of Big Little Lies this week, Season One, and I just finished Season 2 all the way to episode 5, all according to my timing.
Haha, the ‘Narc Boob’ got me laughing. 😂
It made me laugh too!
PrincessSuperEmpath
Game of Thrones? now that’s a typical extra peeve for me.
Scenes where people are
1) toned, fitted and dressed, boobjobbed, tanned, showing big guns from gym, extra everything, body shimmer oils, actors doing all to be catlike Supersexy
2) standing looking serious, talking slowly, solemnly …
Idk, give me a break.
1) & 2) just don’t go well together for me. The combination feels a wee stiff.
But since many millions were hooked, I also get the feeling I should watch GoT.
You should …it has a little person and ugly people and wolves and a tall awkward knight ..and many bearded men 😉
MP: hahahaha. Narc Noob. Not Narc Boob. Sorry. My bad. Maybe that is why she did not respond. My goodness. I did not notice the error.
Thanks for the laugh PSE! We now know where your mind is at 😉😆
I am tempted to watch, at least I can join in the conversation that way. If I don’t like it, I can bail.
Apologies but I don’t always see the comments and I’m an empath so I wouldn’t ignore you – unless of course you’re one of those? 🤣
Narc Boob: I noticed that the casting of Big Little Lies, seems to cast the actors according to how they usually carry themselves in other roles. I think that because this series is cast this way, the actors can easily and swiftly learn and play their roles more accurately, and therefore the series packs more punch than a series usually does in so short an amount of time of just 2 seasons, and not too overly many episodes. The casting of Witherspoon`s teenage daughter had me cringing. Were we really so awful when we were that age? I say……..yes. So sad. Yes, I believe Zoe Kravitz lives a similar dynamic in many elements of this series. It was an easy casting. But, because film and books often have artistic differences, I wonder if the same Bonnie character and family dynamic is in the Book, or just inserted in the TV series???? If anyone has read the book, is the portrayal of Bonnie and her race and her family dynamic true to the book???