Big Little Lies – The Results

You watched, you noted, you debated and then you voted, but were you correct? Can you end the week with a feather in your cap or do you need to dust down your Tudor Tomes and do some more revising?

Poll Result – Normal

Tudorscope – Middle Lesser Narcissist

Poll Result : Upper Lesser Narcissist

Tudorscope : Upper Mid Range Narcissist

Poll Result : Normal

Tudorscope : Normal

Poll Result : Middle Mid Range Narcissist

Tudorscope : Middle Mid Range Narcissist

Poll Result : Super Empath

Tudorscope : Contagion Empath

Poll Result : Co-Dependent Empath

Tudorscope : Co-Dependent Empath

Poll Result : Super Empath

Tudorscope : Super Empath

Poll Result : Standard Empath

Tudorscope : Standard Empath

Poll Result : Narcissistic but not a narcissist

Tudorscope : Narcissistic but not a Narcissist

Poll Result : Middle Mid Range Narcissist

Tudorscope : Middle Greater Narcissist

384 thoughts on “Big Little Lies – The Results

  1. L says:


    I thought that UMRNs are rarely physically violent because they have pretty good control over their fury. Why did you think that Perry is a UMRN even though he is violent?

  2. MommyPino says:

    Hi NunyaBiz, I’m so happy that you’re not mad. I want to write more later. Right now I have been busy with other stuff. 💕

  3. WhoCares says:

    Hi Twilight,

    Thank-you for taking the time to explain. Sorry I didn’t respond sooner. (I’m slowly working my way backwards through replies to me since I’m still consolidating areas of my life and have been helping a friend who just came out of an entanglement.)
    I understand your disappointment with Bonnie and didn’t think she was quite what I was imagining a Contagion to be.

    Your point about fluidity of expression makes sense regarding a Contagion portraying a role.

    And yes, I bet Greaters would definitely have less “pause”, when acting, compared to other schools. Plus, that makes perfect sense that we would explain away such evidence under the “guise” of acting.

    I’m going to have to watch actors more closely now…this is interesting. I wonder if this indicates that Meryl understands N’s – including micro expressions. I look forward to HG putting her under the Tudorscope.

  4. LC says:


    You wrote “Thank you HG. I guess we have to find out first if we are dealing with a narcissist or not to find out if it is gaslighting.”

    And HG agrees.

    This is a very important lesson for me. I know I got all my normals, narcs and my empaths right, except for Renata whom I had down as a midranger, which was close enough, and ML was a midranger for me and Perry a greater which seems silly in hindsight – even if I got that they were both narcs.

    But all the same, I got a few important things wrong. And these were fictional characters, which I am used to looking at analytically without much ET.

    Now what happens if we’re emotionally invested – we’re bound to make mistakes, we simply can’t be sure. And even less so if we have an emotional involvement with REAL characters.

    It’s easy to point fingers, and it’s easy to miss things but it’s damn hard to get it right. I think it really needs an informed /expert outside perspective to really get it right and not label people (or perhaps be too optimistic).

    What’s also transpired is that narcissism is a problem that is not just DONE to empaths, it’s also part of their own behaviour: it has become obvious that truth seekers, too, lie, have secrets, deny, deflect, manipulate etc. Some, not many, of HGs articles mention this. And we have become more aware of it. I did one are grateful for this development.

    The dreaded Ed thread too was an important lesson: empathic people make mistakes but they do not gaslight. And it hurts to overapply narcology, it is destructive too. I certainly know that I need to take a break from seeing everything through narcy eyes from time to time, and I find it so difficult to do.

    There is something else kind of related that I wanted to get off my chest though.

    I want to pick up on a point PSE made at some point which is to do with Renata whom I can’t get out of my system so easily. Renata, whom I “wanted” to be a narc.

    PSE said something along the lines that emotional and physical abuse by women in western societies is a taboo subject – and I agree.

    BLL does not do away with this taboo, sadly. We do not get to see a highly abusive mother, we do not get to see a matrinarc in full-on matrinarcal action. Mary Louise is shown in her fake role as caring grandmother. Several people on this blog fell for her machinations and thought she truly cared. I might have had her down as a midranger, because she didn’t win the court case, but I missed quite how evil and cunning she was, and we’re all people educated about narcissism! This means: The character is painted so well that even dedicated Tudorites miss the extent of the abuse she is capable of. And that’s a problem I find.

    We get to see short flashbacks into Bonnie’s childhood, how she is being hit by her abusive mother for getting her homework wrong. But that mother is also identified as psychotic.

    Interesting that the overtly abusive mother is mad and black (and that it is Bonnie, a woman of colour, who cannot control her impulses), but hey, let’s not get into the politics of that.

    That the visibly, evidently abusive mother is a mad mother is a way of rationalising maternal abuse. The rationalising logic behind this : If it’s mad mothers who abuse, then maternal abuse is unusual. And the mad mother’s abuse is also softened: she sheds a tear while in her coma, and Bonnie climbs into bed with her after she has overcome her hatred for her. Bonnie even manages to say “I love you”.

    Mary Louise on the other hand who is the real maternal monster comes off lightly in the show. There are no flashbacks as to how she abused her boys. We learn from Celeste in court that ML had a road accident herself and that she blamed Perry for it. This is all Celeste’s analysis but we do not see any pictures.

    What we see is that a sympathetic, yet truly problematic mother like Celeste says all these things about ML in court to defend herself and not lose her boys. After she has won the case we see ML hugging her grandchildren. As in: all is well. However, that this is part of a performance only the truly enlightened can see.

    The point I’m trying to make is that BLL, although it is about narcissism and narcisstic abuse, does not really SHOW maternal abuse so as not to confront audience sensibilities too much.

    Abuse the way it is shown is largely male. The good thing is however that male abuse is shown in a well off part of American society – because often abuse is seen as a privilege of the poor.

    I think I needed or wanted Renata to be a midranger because otherwise there would be no narc mother (other than ML). I’m ready to accept she’s only narcissistic. But getting there means that I now also need to make a substantial criticism of the series: that they watered down the danger of maternal narcissm.

    Renata, the most narcisstic mother (except for grandmother ML) is also a comedy figure. Insanely rich, she loses all what’s important to her. Losing her riches is the punishment for her narcissm. In a comedy (comedy in crit parlance is when there is a happy end) “bad” characters get their comeuppance. Renata’s brand of narcissism is shown as something that afflicts the rich and powerful. And thus it happens that we the normal viewers, who we don’t own a huge house overlooking the ocean, can lean back and think: I might struggle but I’m glad I’m not as crap as these crazy rich people …

    Note: The best mum of all is the “poor” one.

    The worst one is still hiding successfully behind a Machiavellian facade. I hope that there is a third series where she will be exposed truly. And that’s my kind of identifying reading of BLL: because ML is my gran, and nobody ever exposed her.

    About time I sussed her now. So glad she’s brown bread.

    Thanks again, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome and an excellent comment. Bravo.

      1. LC says:

        Thank you HG.

        I wrote the piece above also in the interest of blog peace, but alas – I find we still don’t have any. That’s why I have some questions for you, in the hope that your answers will bring that peace.

        Why would anybody on this blog whom you regard as an empath question your assessment of other participants on this blog as empathic?

        Is it raging ET?

        Would you agree that readers of this blog who usually trust your assessment but label an empath as a narcissist all the same – are temporarily deluded?

        If so, would you regard the effect of this delusion aggressive and destructive?

        I’m asking you this because I’m very upset about what’s going on here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There was a discussion which became an argument appertaining to a particular issue (“The Issue”) arising from the show. I form the view that there are very strong, personal feelings associated with The Issue and this has impacted on logic. A misunderstanding arose owing to language issues and also the fact there were many comments flying back and forth, sometimes appearing out of order and this impacted upon flow and recollection. The strong feelings appertaining to The Issue then cross-polluted onto a separate issue (“The New Issue”) between the participants. The Issue was lost and became subsumed in The New Issue which accelerated owing to unhelpful albeit well-intentioned interjection. ET was rampant in all participants which resulted in entrenched positions and the manifestation of certain responses which ordinarily would be absent save for the external stressor which arose.

          Empaths make mistakes. Empaths fall out. Empaths make accusations. They are not saints. The difference is they do it as a consequence of the temporary application of an external stressor which results in honest error and/or obscured logic and do not do it as a hardwired defence mechanism.

          None of the main participants are narcissists.

          An empath husband who is exhausted from working long hours (The External Stressor) has his empathy towards his wife eroded and therefore he could snap and shout at her because she forgot to do something. The difference is, following the receding of The External Stressor his empathy returns, he apologises, make amends and most importantly of all he does not repeat it the following week, why, because he has Emotional Empathy and the considerations detailed in the excellent article The Empathy Cake apply.

          I have allowed the participants to articulate their positions extensively (such is the freedom of the blog) and anybody else who wished to contribute has been able to do so. Other than any response to my comment (which may or may not receive a response from me) the matter is now concluded across all threads.

          1. LC says:

            Thank you very much HG. I apologise to all – readers and participants alike – whose feathers I have ruffled.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I do not regard you as having ruffled any feathers LC so you should withdraw your apology. You sought to apply logic in terms of resolving the disagreement. HG always endorses the application of logic.

          3. WokeAF says:

            If none of the main participants are narcissists, then it follows that narcissistic manipulations such as gaslighting, blameshifting, deflection, revision of history , pity plays etc etc were not used?

            – and if similar behaviour did surface from ET – they were not manipulations?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            For an empath to manipulate it must be consciously deliberate and this is why empaths are rubbish at manipulating, it is not natural to them and they are not well-practised in it.
            An empath may give the appearance of a manipulation through a mistake but they cannot do it instinctively as they are not wired that way. They can only do so deliberately and since a mistake is not deliberate it follows that something which arises from a mistake cannot be a manipulation.

            Remember you do not form an assessment based on limited evidence, that is why the detector consultations are so expansive, well-thought out and applied by an expert. Operating out of this leads to honest error.

          5. WokeAF says:

            You should really change your initials to LB

            logic blaster

            I liked your responses. Steadied the boat rocking for me

          6. LC says:

            Thank you HG. I have many (albeit healing – as in successfully modified) CoD traits and as you so wonderfully describe in “Chained” : we apologise a lot, hahaha

            It is very difficult from a CoD perspective to not doubt one’s instincts and interpret one’s own feelings correctly.

            Hanging out with narcissists for too long erodes the ability to make sense of one’s emotions sometimes long term, also in people who tend to be ok at it.

            But growing up in LOC environments means that you never get the chance to be able to understand your emotions and interpret them correctly in the first place.

            The way my analyst explained it to me : a holding (good enough) mother/primary care taker (can be any gender) can distinguish between her own feelings and that of her child.

            This means for example : if her baby is in distress she will know that it is her baby’s pain – and not her own. She will not get in distress herself because she does not need the baby to signal to her that “being calm and happy” means mum is a good mum. That’s the kind of mum I used to be : my daughter didn’t cry much. I thought she was a happy baby. But in fact she sensed – as small as she was! – that she needed to be happy to keep me happy. This was all something I was not aware of, of course.

            If there is conflict – negative emotions – I used to ask what have I done to cause it. Or what have I not done that the conflict is still not resolved.

            Now I know that conflict is absolutely normal and totally healthy in healthy relationships, I think I’ve written this before. Except there are people who simply CANNOT have healthy conflicts, and then there are people who have rubbish but modifiable conflict strategies, and that’s difficult for CoDs and Ex-partners of narcs to grasp, not least because in many cases they themselves grew up with insufficient conflict strategies.

            The question is : how do we go about having healthy conflicts. Especially those of us who grew up in LOCE and had no chance to learn this and hone our conflict skills at an early age.

            There isn’t so much here in the blog about this (not least because the blog is about knowing the narcissist and not knowing the healthy person) – but at least to me it’s evident from your responses all over the place (not just here) that you too, HG, have learnt how to have constructive conflicts and how to resolve them.

            I can actually now imagine quite well that you and the Shield Maiden have a fair chance at having a healthy relationship – one that survives the golden period in a good way. Either in that it continues in a good way (with healthy conflicts) or that it ends in a good way – because you realise that you cannot resolve what’s between you once you realise that it cannot be addressed in a healthy way.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I understand how healthy people resolve conflicts LC because I have been introduced to that and have the intellectual capacity to understand it. I often explain in consultations the difference between the way non-narcissists resolve an issue and the way a narcissist and a non-narcissist “resolve/don´t resolve” the issue. I often use the agenda basis for that by demonstrating how you cannot resolve matters with a narcissist because there are additional agenda items which are absent when there is no narcissist involved in the conflict. That is why you only resolve the issue with the narcissist by either not attempting to do so (no contact) or the imposition of third party machinery (usually the law – where that mechanism is available). To do anything else is highly likely to fail and comes with so many downsides it is not logical to attempt it.

          8. LC says:


            “That is why you only resolve the issue with the narcissist by either not attempting to do so (no contact) or the imposition of third party machinery (usually the law – where that mechanism is available). To do anything else is highly likely to fail and comes with so many downsides it is not logical to attempt it.”

            I understand that and thank you for the clarification – I didn’t actually mean to suggest that readers of this blog should hope for their narc to want to modify his behaviour.

            You said somewhere that you ARE modifying your behaviour. Since you do not lie on this blog it must be the truth But it is also clear that if you do this it is not because someone else hoped for it…

          9. HG Tudor says:

            I do what I do because it is necessary for me. You know my views about hope.

          10. LC says:


            Thank you for your kind words, there’s probably no better compliment. I appreciate it.

            I think (or rather: imagine from the way you post here) that you’re a very warm and engaging person, the kind of person I’d like to meet IRL, and I really would love to talk to you more – also about your experience with alcoholism, your own and your father’s and perhaps also partners’. Except somehow I don’t think this is the place for me to get too personal, even if I shared quite a few details from my own story here.

            This BBL exercise (and the effects it had on the dynamics of this blog) took it out of me emotionally. It sucked me into posting a hell of a lot more than I usually do – and that’s not so good for my RL.

            Somehow I couldn’t manage to let go until “The Issue” wasn’t cleared up. But now I need to take that long needed blog break.

            The next time I sign on, I might call myself LC/LB – hahaha


            I know that I ruffled your feathers – HG says not to apologise for it so I won’t, but I want you to know that it was never my intention to give you bad feelings – I still recognise the “sister” and if it’s any comfort, it was hard for me too to understand what I was doing to my narc and inadvertently (occasionally and unwittingly, not regularly) to people who weren’t deserving to be treated like one.


            I’m glad for you, that this whole thing at least got you to get clarity about who you are. If I were you I’d ask HG to get your husband checked. I didn’t like the sound of him : that he decides what you should spend your money on. There needs to be some room – and money – that you can decide to spend the way you see fit in a healthy relationship, even if he’s the breadwinner. I’m not saying that he’s a narc. I’m just saying that my feeling is that he keeps you small and that there is a possibility that you’re deluded about him. A bit like Celeste. Or like I was. I’m saying this because of your children. If everything is okay with him then you know that all is well. All the best to you too.

          11. MommyPino says:

            Hi LC,

            Thank you for your concern or for trying to bring peace or resolve the issue. I feel uncomfortable responding about my husband because I might be judged as deluded but I just want to clarify things differently to erase misperceptions. He doesn’t keep me small in any way. I am free to buy it things but we have an agreement that if buying expensive items I should let him know. He also lets me know when he is buying expensive items and asks my permission for buying major stuff like appliances etc. even though he is the sole breadwinner. The conflict with me buying the consultation arose because of several factors. 1. He has been irritated by me spending a lot of time on this blog and telling him that I think that his daughters might be narcissists. He said that his daughters are indeed jerks and they have been horrible to me for years in spite of all of my efforts to appease them but he doesn’t think that they are disordered. He thinks that someday if they mature enough and have more life experiences they will be nicer. 2. We just spent a lot of money for the hospital bills, funeral, my trip etc. He sent me extra money but I have already converted them into pesos and I didn’t know how to deposit money into PayPal in that country. I texted him if I could use our credit card (I tend to think that it’s his because he’s the breadwinner but he says that it’s ours) to buy a consultation to see if I have narcissistic behaviors. His irritation arose and said that I’m not a narcissist. I’m probably the polar opposite of a narcissist. He thought that I was over analyzing again about narcissism and now I am internalizing that I might be one. I explained that I just want to learn more about my self so he said not right now because we just spent a lot of money. My narcissist mom didn’t have any insurance so we paid everything in cash. He asked for me to wait for him to catch up financially. I had a lot of left over money in pesos right before I went home and gave the money to my relatives who are struggling financially and my husband was happy that I helped them. I don’t think that he is a narcissist. He is not the most empathetic husband either who would agree with everything and be the crying shoulder. But he does love me and our kids. He tells me that I’m the reason why our kids are bubbly and happy but I think that he has a lot to do with it because he is such a loving and playful and helpful dad.

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Please read this with logic and as observation and not provocation.

            I think the point is that you still have to defer to your husband. He makes it known that he is annoyed that you spend time on the blog (control over how you spend your time and on what), shuts down the fact that you think his daughters are narcissists (dismisses your opinions even when you present evidence), you appeared to need his permission to get a consult but he was okay with you giving money to relatives (control over your decision making and deciding what is important to or best for you. Also that could be interpreted as facade because your husband has granted help to your relatives where it can be appreciated but not where it would benefit only you). In essence it does not appear you have autonomy. There was a previous discussion some time ago where other commenters took notice of other of his behaviours and it upset you. I understand that, and I am not saying that he is a narcissist. He may be narcissistic in the same way that I am many times, but I wanted to point out to you that’s why this has come up on more than one occasion. I was reluctant to raise it because we had a misunderstanding in the past and I did not want you to think it had anything to do with that. It does not. It’s not to hurt you. You have made it known more than once that you believe there to be a ‘clique’ here and I don’t believe that to be true just because people have similar thinking that does not agree with yours. It has come up again because LC was not part of the previous discussion but has noticed some things all the same. People are making observations and you do not have to accept them. They are made in the same way that you make observations – for consideration only. It may be the case that he is not a narcissist and it’s just the way you present things, but might you feeling defensive and believing there is clique contribute to (in your own words) the misunderstanding and overreacting with others. Just something to consider.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Balanced and brimming with logic.
            There’s no clique here. There are frequent commenters but they are not exclusionary to others.

          14. MommyPino says:

            Hi NA, thank you. I appreciate your thoughts and also LC’s. I understand you are not provoking and I’m sorry that I have been easily provoked.
            I understand the observations that you made and it all makes sense. But whenever I interact with my husband and see him I can’t imagine him being a narcissist. I will admit that he has a lot of red flags and I saw a lot of similarities with him and some articles here and some stories shared by commenters even though I didn’t comment in those stories. But all that I see are red flags but no abusive behaviors. He can be controlling and we have had arguments about it on several occasions when I brought it up to his attention and he has adjusted his behaviors. I don’t know if it is the age gap that sometimes I feel that he treats me like a daughter and not an equal partner. But he has made adjustments and he has said that he doesn’t treat me like a daughter and I am equal to him in our marriage. I also don’t see him ever painting me black. He never gives me silent treatment. He never withholds intimacy. When we have a fight he still says I love you after a phone call and kisses me goodbye and goodnight. When he knows that I’m mad he tries to resolve it with me and tries to tone down his dismissiveness and sarcasm and I can see that he tries really hard so that we can at least be close to a resolution if not full resolution before the day ends. He’s very critical minded with almost everything and very Alpha male which makes him look like a narcissist but he always does the right thing and is very consistent with his personality and behaviors throughout the 11 years that we have been together and almost 9 yrs of marriage. I am a Geyser which means my fuel stales quickly. He should have already devalued me or lost interest in me a long time ago. But he has never cheated on me, has never disrespected me in any form of abuse, and has never withheld intimacy. It almost doesn’t feel like we have been together that long because he still makes fun of my singing voice and thinks that I could have been a big star with my cutest and sincerest expressions if only I had a voice. He still always looks at me whenever he sees something funny on TV and he still loves to tell me everything about his day. I think that he hates drama. He wasn’t much of a support when my mom died. He was always excited to see me on Skype but he loses interest when I talked about my mom. I think that it’s because he was tired of how mean she was with everybody so he lost his empathy towards her. But he doesn’t like to listen to anyone’s problems anyway and he even tells people to just get over it if someone made a mistake of confiding on him. I think that it’s because he is a male and it’s his personality but I don’t think he is a narcissist. I will observe him more and also when I get a job when our older kid starts to go to school I will observe how we are handling finances if I will have more freedom. If I observe more red flags and feel restricted I will get a Narc Detector.

            *I just want to add here for NunyaBiz I am really sorry. I was a dick. I remember all of our discussions and support you have given me. You have always been a beautiful person towards me and many others. I truly apologize.

          15. NarcAngel says:

            As someone who has been labelled a narcissist when I am not, I understand all of that. I have no wish to label your husband or have you believe he is a narcissist. I only wanted to offer why I thought that this concern has been raised (now and previously) by others and that I do not believe them to be an attempt to hurt or provoke you. Also that it may have affected your reactions and interactions with others. If you have no concerns then you have no obligation to consider it now or further.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Periodically NA gets accused of being a narcissist. She is not.
            Occasionally she gets accused of being me. She is not.
            The fact remains the individuals who bandy such an accusation are engaging in projection.

          17. FYC says:

            “The fact remains the individuals who bandy such an accusation are engaging in projection.”

            HG, Superb point, well made. Thank you.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          19. MommyPino says:

            Thank you NA, I don’t think that they are meant to provoke me either. I understand where the questions are coming from and it is not coming from malice. I know that this wouldn’t be of importance to you but I never thought that you were a narcissist.

          20. kel2day says:

            This is not regarding the participants of The Issue. It’s been mentioned several times that there are narcissists on this blog who believe they’re empaths. If a Tudorite took the E-Detector and was actually a narcissist, would you tell them? If you wouldn’t because there’s no point as you’ve often said, then what would you tell them they are? I would think most of us would want to know, and an old girlfriend is credited with telling you about your narcissism. I think a lot of narcissists (not all) have an inkling about what they are, because they’re not stupid. There’s always a sound of relief from readers who’ve passed the e-test and come out as an empath.

          21. HG Tudor says:

            If someone who is not an empath took the Empath Detector test it would tell them that they are not an empath.

          22. FYC says:

            Excellent, insightful and fair analysis, HG. Thank you.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          24. Desirée says:

            Has anyone ever taken the Empath Detector that turned out to not be an Empath?

          25. HG Tudor says:


          26. Desirée says:

            Haha, would have loved to see their reaction when they where told they weren’t empaths after all. Unless it was a normal, they would probably be alright.

          27. Sweetest Perfection says:

            But I think HG doesn’t disclose if a person is a narcissist, in which case, I wonder what he tells them!

          28. alexissmith2016 says:

            SP – I believe he says just that – you’re not an empath. God if I was a narc I’d want to know. But then if I was my narcissism would prevent it. Unless I was a greater of course, which is unlikely. I was genuinely concerned that my results would come back and HG would say I was not an empath. lol. even though I didn’t think I was an N, I used to wonder about this alot. But after lots of reading I was fairly certain I wasn’t but I couldn’t be sure.

          29. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Alexissmith, I agree with you, I would love to know if that were the case! But knowing how he operates, just by exclusion: if you’re not an Empath, and he doesn’t specify you are a normal… you have to be a narc (I don’t think “minion” is a possibility, hahaha). And in that case, I’d like to know what school and cadre, just for fun of course because if I were a narc I would probably deny it but still want to read about my fabulous self.

          30. alexissmith2016 says:

            Lol SP! And now I’m imagining lots of angry Ns who have taken the test and been told exactly that! They’re not an empath. And thinking HG is wrong or he’s persecuting them or such like.

          31. WokeAF says:

            NA , LC, MP etc
            It’s important to remember that cultural differences come into play. In some cultures financial control by the husband is the framework. That was raised in North American countries may see this as disempowering . But in certain cultures this is a framework that actually WORKS for the PPL IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

          32. WokeAF says:

            Additionally, MP- comments about your relationship tip a toe over the personal boundaries line, even if made because we all want to see you feel empowered, autonomous, and free.
            HOWEVER if you’re happy in your relationship dynamic and would love to be able to post about your marriage and not have anyone comment on the dynamics- you can simply request such- and I suspect everyone is emotionally mature enough to keep their interpretations to themselves.
            If however you are interested in other perspectives on your relationship- you can state that also.
            Your relationship is your business and even if you post about it – I’m sure as long as you’re happy in it- nobody wants to change that .💗

          33. WokeAF says:

            Seeing one’s partner, daughter, mother, co parent
            – is traumatic .
            It’s a Traumatic experience when the cognitive dissonance goes away .
            One can only see it when they are ready .
            EVEN IF MPs husband WAS a narcissist – her still being in the grief of losing her mother — ummmmmm ..
            — it may not be the time to blow another internal world apart .

            MP i’m not in any way suggesting your husband as a narcissist OK just so you know . He may or may not be a controlling spouse.

            I’m pointing out that certain matters are very delicate and should be handled appropriately especially when one is going through another trauma such as the death of a parent – still getting their footing .
            That can make one a little extra sensitive .

            I’m gonna tell you right now that even a healthy spouse would be concerned if I was getting so involved in a blog and wondering if I was a narcissist during a grieving period of my mothers death. From the outside that does not seem healthy especially if it is upsetting a person to tears .

          34. WokeAF says:

            When my mom died, it wasn’t a huge surprise. She’d been very ill for a decade. We’d even had talks such as “if I die I want you to know this” or “if you die I want you to know that “
            So I was somewhat prepared. Even though in my view she was a good mother, we were not especially close.
            Upon her death, my awareness was pushed sideways into a different state of being which could be called shock .
            It’s an energetic dropkick .
            I don’t know how many people here have experienced the death of their mom.
            I’ve experienced it, and I’ve talked to many other people my age and older that have experienced it, and from what I can tell, the general consensus is what I am telling you .
            One goes into a state of shock where they are literally not in the same reality as everyone else . Then over time, a few weeks, or so, the person slowly comes out of shock and into still yet another state of being that is exceptionally sensitive .( i’m not a crier and I would burst into tears out of nowhere over nothing)
            You Feel vulnerable .
            After a period of weeks or months of feeling vulnerable you come into regular consciousness again and hopefully into acceptance .
            In this period of time, it is very unwise to focus on anything but self-care and caring for your family .
            Worrying about if you’re a narcissist, about how people in a blog might think of you, trying to tackle figuring out when you go into victim mentality,doing inner work, dissecting your current relationship —- all these things can be done later and in fact it can be very detrimental to your well-being to tackle these things while you are grieving .
            The shock and the grief doesn’t just last a few days or a week or two and then you’re back to normal.
            It’s a process that is different for everyone but in my experience the majority of people take at least a few weeks to get anything near to regular consciousness .

            When I was grieving I didn’t even realize that I was in this sensitive state after the first week or so and the initial shock had worn off .
            It’s only in retrospect that I can see that I was not in my usual disposition for a good few weeks perhaps even a couple months

            I’m just putting this out there .

          35. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF. I think that is what I went through and possibly still going through. When I saw my mom for the first time I was shocked to see her so emaciated, so different from how she was my entire life. Then I took care of her for turner days. For three days it was just me and her in that house. I left to get our laundry done in the laundromat and to find WiFi so I can see my family on Skype. She asked me to buy packing tape before I left. I came back with the clean laundry and packing tape and to see her not alive anymore, I don’t know how to describe it. I went grocery shopping with my cousin for the wake and I was trying hard to stop myself from crying because I couldn’t stop remembering when my mom and I used to shop for groceries. It’s like being in an alternative world. I don’t know how to describe it but you have eloquently described it for me when you described what you went through. It is so much to tackle and it wasn’t wise of me to go here to use this blog to numb myself. And also you’re right, I’m not really that interested in finding out if my husband is a narc right now. I honestly never asked anybody here at the blog if he was a narc or not. It just happens that occasionally an observation is brought up by a commenter. This is the second time that it was brought up to me. I was never offended by it. I was not offended by LC and was not offended by K when she brought it up the first time. In both occasions I have politely addressed the concerns and and was not dismissive. The first time I was offended at an ‘ew comment’ because I was hurt for my husband because he is my partner in life and the dad of my kids and I didn’t want him to be disrespected. But the questions on red flags did not offend me. But I think for now I would like it to end and I will just consult with HG if I feel that I need to. There are a lot of boundary issues in the blog that I have a problem with and the genuine concern over my husband being a narcissist is not one of them. Also I think that it is ok to raise a question out of genuine concern, the boundary issue starts I think when it is almost being pushed for you to accept.

          36. WokeAF says:

            I also work as a cafe aid in a nursing home of 52 old ppl with various stages of dementia. I do everything for them that they can’t do until they die . Sometimes I even sit in as hospice and the person dies in my presence .
            I’ve Witnessed and neecyo accommodate , various types of grief from family members who hate their parents and only come in to collect the belongings , all the way through to the average grieving family sat around the bedside .
            And the one thing that they all have in common – theyre all in various states of shock and grief. Even the most stoic family member is a little bit snippy and ultra sensitive.

            I would implore MP to put off any interaction that generates anything other than a feeling of support and positivity


          37. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi mommypino…i havent been following but i noticed youd mentioned your hubby doesnt like the time you spend here does he know the blog? Maybe hes reading your posts?
            I do worry about that with my situation so i turned notifications off in my email to avoid being linked.

          38. HG Tudor says:

            Sensible precaution.

          39. MommyPino says:

            Hi Chihuahuamum, He knows that I come here and he knows all of my passwords. He can access my emails, phone and laptop if he wants to. And I also know his passwords in everything. He can read my posts in the blog if he wants to, he knows the blog’s name as I have talked about it to him. He will easily recognize my gravarse picture as even my little kids recognize me when they see my gravatar on my phone even though it’s just my eyes and forehead. Also he was the one who gave me the nickname ‘my little Pino’ so he will definitely figure out who I am. However, he is not the type who spies on me. He doesn’t even open my phone even though I leave it everywhere. I used to spy on him when we were just new but I got tired of it because I never see anything that is not normal, except one time an ex girlfriend of his still greets him happy birthday and he sent her my picture. But even their conversation was so benign even though she looks like she still has feelings for him. I’m 💯 sure that he doesn’t read what I post here on the blog because he has no reactions regarding the Ed Thread and my posts about the handyman. He is also very expressive and I will definitely be able to tell if he knows and also he will not be able to stop himself from confronting me. I would be mortified if he ever sees the Ed Thread or the handyman posts but it will be because of my embarrassment and not because he would ever judge me. He doesn’t ever judge me. That’s why even though he looks like a narcissist, I don’t think that he is. Also whenever he sees me upset, even if I don’t tell him why, he would be bringing home a slice of cake or get my favorite food for me so I know that he cares. I don’t want to start having a secret life from him by having stuff that he cannot access. I completely trust him that he has my best interest and he has proven that to me over the years. But I totally understand your concern and I think that what you said is definitely a sensible precaution in a lot of situations. Thank you CM. 💕

          40. nunya biz says:

            MP, I’m not mad at you. I really enjoy your kindness and unique personality and I’m sorry I snapped. I had made another comment that said I have my feelings and empaths can be wrong, I just wanted to clarify, I didn’t mean I feel you are N, I don’t. I meant that I sometimes think you get caught up in being defensive and forget that the other person has a different point of view and their own feelings that can get also hurt, and their point of view might not even include what you are reacting to or not be of bad intention. I see NA is talking about that some and WAF said something about it. I agree with WAF that I react defensively sometimes also and I forget, a lot of people do, and it’s likely from my childhood. It’s just something to be aware of. If we do it too much we restrict the ability of others to communicate their whole selves to us, which includes positives and negatives (and the negatives are sometimes accurate, so I gotta suck it up). It is about consideration of where they are coming from and their life experience. Defensiveness also restricts our ability to appreciate others autonomy and therefore truly value generosity when it comes.

            We can’t always see each other the whole way, so often when people are talking to me I can sense big blank spaces in their view of me that they have, the view is not complete. As long as I’m not being actively targeted by an N then I can feel bad and get frustrated all I want (and I do), but it’s still my problem. It is in part a question of boundary violation if I lose my patience to let them form their own view. Instead it is my job to fill in the blanks, not theirs. I can provide some information, but they decide. And they also have their own valid pain expressions.

            I do it sometimes, I lose my patience and I sometimes invalidate feelings by doing so, I think everyone does. I have been working through some things on the blog with the articles because sometimes I see MYSELF in the articles. I realize unconscious and hidden motivations I’ve had and I see areas where I experience jealousy and I realize places where I really need to increase my accountability. Sometimes I’ve noticed I don’t want to be fully accountable because then I might have to face the real fear that maybe I’m not fully capable. That is narcissism. So I am humbled by a narcissistic psychopath. It is ironic. Luckily he’s patient enough to not cross our boundaries and let us form a view over time. I would probably just yell at everybody : P.

            Best and love to you, please keep talking.

          41. WokeAF says:

            NA & Nunya

            I just read your replies to MP and got the good feels .

          42. WokeAF says:


            “The fact remains the individuals who bandy such an accusation are engaging in projection”

            Projection of WHAT?
            are the accusers of NA being a narc projecting their own narcissism, their own narcissistic traits, or other?


          43. HG Tudor says:

            Those who accuse NA of being a narcissist are invariably narcissists and are thus projecting what they are on to NA.

          44. LC says:


            “Those who accuse NA of being a narcissist are invariably narcissists and are thus projecting what they are on to NA.”

            To be honest when I first read here I also had the idea that NA was a persona of yours. This was because of the name: narc angel vs malign narc – it was a perfect pair, and then because of NA’s professional looking avatar in a design that matches the general feel of your site and which also matched your original burning heart in style. My idea was, that you split your responses into a “doer” (HG) and a “done to” (NA) perspective.

            For all I know this could still be the case, because we all don’t know how “real” we are whom we post here, but I never thought she was a narcissistic persona 🙂

            Over time I’ve come to believe that you’re real, NA, real – as in : not HG

            But all the same, I’m back to class, HG.

            My question:

            When someone accuses NA of being a narcissist (and thus projects their narcissism onto her) why and how is this different from when someone accuses MP of being a narcissist?

            I am really struggling with that one.

          45. HG Tudor says:

            1. I am not NA. Thank you for being honest with your view and well done on reaching the correct conclusion.
            2. Your question is a legitimate one but it is isolated from context, hence your confusion
            a. When NA is accused of being a narcissist it is invariably because she has put someone behaving badly in their place, defended me or otherwise responded to severe antagonism. The accuser, as a consequence of the provision of challenge fuel, lashes out by accusing NA of being a narcissist. It is projection. One only has to analyse the behaviour of the accuser to see that the relevant accuser has all the hallmarks. Moreover when the accusation is thrown at NA, the accuser fails to provide any evidence, fails to link behaviour to criteria and operates in the usual amorphous, vague fashion i.e. like a Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist would (there are similar behaviours from these people towards me – there is never any evidence provided because it does not exist but that does not stop the accuser from making the accusation, why, because they are a narcissist=
            b. Re MP and I am reluctant to have this episode manifest once again, but you have asked in the context of understanding so I will answer. The accusations were done with evidence and linked to criteria, not in the amorphous fashion. The accusations came from someone whose behaviour on the blog demonstrates that she is not a narcissist. Moreover the accusations arose from genuine mistake. One can understand why the conclusion was reached but it was incorrect. Accordingly, the fact the person making the allegations was not a narcissist )because there is substantial evidence showing that over time and repeated interaction) AND the fact the accusations were made on the basis of evidence and criteria, albeit honestly mistaken supports the conclusion that there was no projection.

          46. NarcAngel says:

            Wow! You’re a thinker because I didn’t consider ANY of that lol. I had found the site and been reading when I came upon an article that I wanted to comment on. Had to sign up and choose a name quickly and I thought : well I’m a little of both…… The avatar was not immediate – it came after some joking around with others here. I used to say I perched on buildings like a gargoyle looking for narcs and injustice. I thought of a name I liked better some time in but by then I was already referred to as NA. I asked at one time if I should change my name a (very) few people did not like it or my avatar) but at the end of the day it was decided I should just leave it be. Once during an HG livestream I commented on something and someone else commented that they were glad to see that I did exist and was a separate person. I am a female who lives in Canada and is very much real. I think it’s evident in the writing style, content, personality, and intelligence that I could not possibly be HG and I’m not putting myself down in saying that – it’s just fact. A bit insulting to HG I’m sure but he lets it roll lol. I think sometimes the Seagulls just throw that out as another way to say that I’m a bitch and couldn’t possibly be an empath.

            One question: what did you mean about something of mine matching the burning heart style logo of HG’s? I have never had that. Unless you mean attached to one of my letters. HG chose that and only because the letter was addressed to him and that was the logo at the time.

            Hope that clears some things up.

          47. FYC says:

            To be clear and fair, LC, K did not call MP a N. She listed and stated narcissistic behaviors and said she is not an empath. This is not the same as calling her a narcissist, as normals can also exhibit narcissistic behaviors. Further she was not projecting she was analyzing behavior in the heat of an argument when behaviors can be unusual (I’m not assessing said analysis, and decline to reopen a closed topic).

          48. HG Tudor says:


          49. HG Tudor says:

            K did state that MP was a Mid Range Narcissist, I suspect you missed that FYC. I have explained why that error was made. You are correct with regard to the analysis being made in the heat of an argument.

            I repeat, the issue is concluded. The following is a statement to all readers, the issue is concluded and. that means :-

            1. Stop referring to the matter,
            2. Stop referring to behaviours that occurred during the exchange and then asking “HG if this is done is it this, HG if this is said is it that”
            3. Stop thanking people with regard to comments stated during this exchange.

            Any comments will not be posted. Do not waste my time emailing me about it.

            I stated the position with regard to all three protagonists. It is concluded.

          50. FYC says:

            HG, I apologize to all, I did miss that entry and stand corrected. I agree with the matter closing and will observe completely. Please delete my earlier reply to WAF. Thank you very much.

          51. WokeAF says:

            You the man HG 👍🏻💯

          52. LC says:

            WokeAF and MP

            “Your relationship is your business and even if you post about it – I’m sure as long as you’re happy in it- nobody wants to change that .💗”

            I hear you, WokeAF. I agree with you too. I did wonder if it was okay to mention my view on what MP said about her husband especially so soon after the funeral.

            I thought: now or never because I know that at this current time MP trusts that I don’t write crap simply to unsettle her.

            If my comment unsettled you, MP, and makes you doubt wether your husband is a good one (and you can’t answer this for yourself), ask HG. Don’t ask us here because we make mistakes.

            You get defensive easily which has been pointed out to you. The longer the defense, the more the reader thinks that something isn’t quite right – this is true for any defensive comment and irrespective of whether it’s true or not.

            The confident answer is something like : “thanks LC I hear your concern, he’s not perfect by any means but I love him and I have no reason to doubt he’s a good guy”.

            That signals to everyone to stay out of your business. Your answer is so long, MP, and gives so much insight that I could be tempted to look for more narc traits because that’s what we do on this site. Anything what we disclose here is an invitation to be commented upon. It’s an invitation to agree with and to disagree and to engage with.

            There are always people whose responses we like and others we don’t like. That’s the normal thing. You could have also just not answered my statement MP, that would also have been okay …

            Any comment here is a choice and an invitation for more comments. HG implemented a monitoring process that comments which are completely off do not go through.

            I won’t write more about your hubby MP – only this : you yourself know deep down if you have doubts about him. Should you be in doubt get him checked by HG, rather sooner than later (as soon as you’re ready to face a possible truth), because even if you couldn’t leave him if he turned out to be a narc it would be better to know. And if he turns out normal or an empath, a weight would be off your mind. If you’re not in doubt about him, don’t do anything – and there’s no need to answer my comment MP! All the best to you and your family.

          53. MommyPino says:

            Hi LC,

            I was not unsettled at all by your questions about my husband. I was not able to write a response because I have been really busy with catching up on my kids’ missed gymnastics classes while I was out of the country and also stuff regarding the starting of school this coming week. I wrote a short comment saying that I will write more later but very busy but there must have been a glitch because it didn’t go through.

            I am actually lost on the threads and not sure which ones to reply first. Regarding my husband, I don’t know if there is a right or wrong or ideal way to respond. I just know that I wasn’t defensive about him this time. The last time that NA mentioned about me being upset, I wasn’t upset about the questions about him, I got upset about a word that a commenter used about my husband, I can’t remember the word but I think it is ‘gross’ or something like that. It felt personal as I do love him and he is absolutely not gross in any way. He is handsome, dignified, charming, and well respected by everyone in our community. I was not dismissive or defensive. I believe that I was rather patient at that time; more patient than most people would be willing to. Like I have said, there were times that I wonder myself, but then I also look like a narcissist to some commenters here so who am I to judge? But I will do a narc detector if anything suspicious and serious comes up. He is a good person and I can confidently say that. Our marriage is not perfect, there are times we annoy each other, but there is nothing that can be interpreted as abuse.

            LC I just want to say that I am grateful to you and WokeAF. I am deeply grateful. Thank you so much. I don’t want to say anything more than that to avoid the possibility of offending anyone. But I just want to say that I wish the very best for both of you from the bottom of my heart. ❤️

          54. MommyPino says:

            Hi LC, I just want to add a correction, the word wasn’t ‘gross’ it was ‘ew’. But The commenter apologized and I accepted the apology right away. And I just want to make it clear that the commenter is a wonderful and kind person and that little conflict didn’t change how I view her as a wonderful person.

          55. LC says:

            Thanks HG that makes perfect sense to me.

            I’m not reading many threads atm so haven’t seen if K is active again – it seems to me that she’s not.

            If you’re reading this K – I hope you’re back soon.

          56. HG Tudor says:

            She will be.

          57. nunya biz says:

            Also LC, I’m not sure if this is helpful, but I’d like to divert to an unrelated example.

            I thought Renata was a narc for sure, but HGs attunement is different and he says no.

            That’s even with me removing a lot of subjectivity since I’m not a character in the show. I noticed that I correctly labeled all of the empaths, all of them, including school. But everyone else I labeled as highly narcissistic or a narc, even Ed. I think our sensitivity level to behaviors can vary a lot, because we are at the extreme end of the empathy cake, which is different from projection.

          58. LC says:


            It was your writing style that convinced me that you’re separate from HG, but you know, I wouldn’t put it past him that he could invent a different verbal feel for a persona he creates. But it would be a hell of a job to keep that up over a long period of time, probably even for HG and so far I haven’t seen any glitches, hahaha!

            Seriously, I watched out for glitches. I think what is very similar is your sense of humour so that too kept me wondering if you were one and the same person for quite some while.

            We could have a contest: HG could post like NA and HG like NA, you have the same avatars and the rest of us get to poll who is who teheee!

            Re your question: when I first started reading, HG was using the burning heart as an avatar, and I think it appeared as a signature symbol on other platforms such as twitter – I had no idea he changed avatars from time to time. That the heart illustrates your letter I saw later, and that also made me wonder.

            I thought the mask (veiling the burning heart) and the burning heart (having to be masked) were a perfect pair but then such metaphors are what make my own poetic heart beat.

            Me, a thinker? Yes, that’s true. It’s weird, HG teaches to use logic against / to detect narcs. It’s logic that helped me survive my narc infested childhood actually – I suspect this is true for K too. I read in the Ed thread that she had something like 62 narcs in her family!! Possibly there are a few misdiagnosed ones among these, but all the same. I only know of 3: gran, mother and one of my brothers.

            Logic helped because growing up with narcs is crazy making – you don’t know which reality to trust, and logic stops you from going insane…

          59. WokeAF says:


            And she said that she gave MP challenge fuel.

            So…there’ s that.

            FYC on August 9, 2019 at 22:04
            To be clear and fair, LC, K did not call MP a N. She listed and stated narcissistic behaviors and said she is not an empath. This is not the same as calling her a narcissist

          60. FYC says:

            WAF, I know you are tenacious with each grain of sand, but I am a person who sees the entire beach. You are now introducing a different comment from a volatile thread that has been closed by the moderator. I was addressing the accuracy of the question posed with regard to LC’s sincere request to understand projection of narcissism.

            To be clear, I see all sides of the past thread and I did not take sides. I am specifically educated and highly experienced in dealing with communication conflict. I refrained from getting involved in that heated discussion because the central issue involved emotionally charged perceptions, born of personal values, colored by cultural and personality differences.

            WAF, every human has narcissistic traits. HG has confirmed that the participants involved in that conflict are empaths. Of course, anyone may doubt that HG is correct, I do not. HG knows and is highly aware of his kind with exceptional accuracy and insight. Perhaps, at this point, it is best to have compassion for all involved and move forward.

          61. nunya biz says:

            Empaths can project, triangulate, and cross boundaries anyway. If someone feels they are being projected at and triangulated their subjective conclusion might be different than an observer’s and everyone has a right to express their boundaries being crossed and that was her interpretation of the *feeling*. Please don’t get me started on George Carlin or muddied boundaries in the vein of “we are all one”. I get it but it’s convoluting in this circumstance imo.

          62. nunya biz says:

            Yes sir. Sorry.

          63. LC says:

            To HG and all empaths:*

            I sincerely support FYC’s call to have compassion for all participants involved. I am not writing this comment to comment further on “The Issue” but to move on to the next step : to appreciate some of the things that we’ve achieved.

            “Empaths can project, triangulate, and cross boundaries anyway.”

            This is the bottom line that emerged from the BLL exercise – it emerged from the character analysis and it emerged from the heated debate about the character analysis, and it even emerged while we were trying to make sense of what went on.

            I think we knew this before cognitively. But now we’ve got a new collective understanding of what this means emotionally, and we’ve also got a blog chiffre for it: “The Issue”.

            What I would like to ask you HG:

            Projection, boundary crossing and triangulation – this seems to be something that many of us (me included) acquire in the LOC environments many of us grew up in. Often the same in which narcs were raised.

            Would you say that there is a tendency for empaths to engage in these kind of behaviours more than normals (but less than narcissists)?

            Some of your articles seem to suggest this but I wanted to ask if this is indeed what you’re suggesting.

            *(HG, simply delete this please if this is not what you had in mind when you asked not to refer to the conflict anymore.)

          64. HG Tudor says:

            LC are basic distinction is this :-

            1. Normals are not addicted to narcissists and therefore are more likely to walk away from aberrant behaviour (sometimes during seduction and more usually during devaluation). They do not ´hang in there´either to fathom out, fix or fight.
            2. Empaths are addicted. ET hijacks traits to cause them to remain trying to fathom out the situation, fix it or fight the protagonist. This also cross pollutes into engagement with other people who are not narcissists. The empath is not manipulative but can engage in less desirable behaviours driven by their particular traits.

    2. MommyPino says:

      Wow, thank you for the excellent analysis LC. I’m so thankful that you are here to share your insights and knowledge in films. I always enjoy reading them.
      “narcissism is a problem that is not just DONE to empaths, it’s also part of their own behaviour: it has become obvious that truth seekers, too, lie, have secrets, deny, deflect, manipulate etc. ”
      So true. Especially now that society is becoming more and more narcissistic and competitive, these behaviors are becoming more mainstream than empathic behaviors. Even kids who didn’t grow in a narcissistic home tend to be more narcissistic nowadays. And empaths are not immune to that as well. Especially empaths who are still hurting inside from the abuse that they have experienced. I remember a lot of empaths in this blog expressed thoughts of wishing they could develop more narcissism in them. And I could have been one of those commenters; I honestly can’t remember if I have expressed the same wishful thinking here. But an empath who has been hurt can try to develop more narcissistic traits as a defense mechanism. And that can be problematic because it doesn’t come naturally to empaths so the natural instincts that empaths have doesn’t fit the behaviors that they are trying to replicate.

      I love what you said about abusive women being a taboo subject. And especially abusive mothers. My whole life with my matrinarc I have not opened up about the abuse that I was receiving from her because I thought that it was so out of the norm and embarrassing. I thought that nobody would ever understand me. There has been no movie in the Philippines that I have ever seen that comes remotely close to how abusive and abnormal my mother’s raising of me was. When I went to the US to live with my dad, we watched TV together and the movie was Carrie. For the first time in my life I saw a movie that depicted a mother who was like my mom! I was so shocked and thought that Stephen King was a genius. And at the same time I felt grateful that someone had an idea what it was like. It is such a strong taboo in society to overcome. Most people have loving mothers and very few people can even fathom how damaging and painful it is to not have one. So when mothers are depicted, they usually try to not hurt the sensitivities of majority of the population who love their moms and are very fond of maternal figures in general.

      1. empath007 says:

        Hello MP 🙂

        We have not spoken much on this blog but I wanted to post a response to the previous post you wrote. RE: your husband having an opinion about your time on narc sit, his opinion regarding his daughters and yourself.

        First off. I don’t think you owe anyone here any explanations when it comes to why you can not spend money on a consult. Your finances are your own personal business, You do not need to feel bad because the timing is off or you have other priorities etc.

        I noticed there was some kind of disagreement/misunderstanding/argument happening between yourself and other commentators and tbh I just ignored most of those comments as I do not engage in online arguments as a personal preference and found it uninteresting.

        It sounds to me not as though your husband is trying to control you…but that he has your best interest at heart. He has a right to be concerned as you are understandably in an emotional state with all of the really big things you have going on in your life right now. It is difficult to convince ANYONE of narcissism if they haven’t experienced it themselves. A lot of us have had rejection responses when trying to bring it up with anyone…

        for example today I was trying to convince a good friend to look at this site as they discovered recently they have siblings who are narcs. And what did they do? they shut me down… because people need to reach understanding at their own pace. Also, those are his children, he will have a natural inclination to protect them as he would you. And the fact that you two actually discuss finances and make financial decisions together… Bravo! that’s what a marriage is, compromise. That’s what you’re are suppose to do.

        I am sorry to hear of the loss of your matrinarc. While I am sure it brings you peace, it probably also brings you a lot of conflicted feelings. I wish you all the best

        1. MommyPino says:

          Thank you so much empath007. I agree. It’s also something to point out that my husband never dismissed that his kids were jerks and horrible to me. He never dismissed their behaviors. It’s the pathology that he is not accepting and I can’t blame him because NPD is a life sentence and loving parents wouldn’t want to give up on their kids.

          1. empath007 says:

            That makes sense. Sounds like he is doing his best to keep the peace on both sides to me.. he acknowledges there’s rude behaviour but doesn’t want to hear his daughter are disordered… I can understand that.:. And I can also understand why that is frustrating for you and why you reach out to a community.

            But your husband is the one supporting you IRL day in an Day out. So I can understand it would upset you when people who haven’t met either one of you in person are trying to analyze him.

          2. MommyPino says:

            Thank you empath007. That’s exactly how I feel. 👍

  5. Twisted Heart says:

    Was Celeste of the Magnet cadre?
    Perry seemed to think of her that way and he called her Sparkles. She had a very calming demeanour and she had that lovely smile that made you feel like everything was going to be okay.
    What makes Madeline a Magnet?
    I really thought saviour and geyser, the way she was all up in everyone’s business, saving the day with her big heart on her sleeve and all her energy pouring out.

    1. LC says:

      I don’t know if it’s been established that she’s a magnet, somehow it popped up and everyone now sees it that way …. Isn’t it so that the cadres mix?

      1. Twisted Heart says:

        Yes I think the cadres can usually be a mix. They are in my case anyways.
        And thank you LC, I also love reading your analysis. That’s such a cool job. I love how you can expand on all these complex story lines and make us think about even bigger themes. I would enjoy your classes!

  6. MommyPino says:

    HG, when Ed confronted Madeline because he overheard her and Abby talking about Madeline’s affair and Madeline denied it to Ed, did Madeline gaslight Ed?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, she consciously told a lie. She is not a narcissist so she does not gas light.

      1. MommyPino says:

        Thank you HG! How can we tell the difference between regular lying and gaslighting? Is it the motivation? Madeline lied as a defense mechanism so Ed wouldn’t find out. Whereas gaslighting is done as a mind game or with more sinister motivation? I have your book Manipulated and the gaslighting described there seems much more sophisticated than just regular lying. Like gaslighting is not just one action but a series of actions designed to wear down a person’s mind.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Narcissists gas light.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thank you HG. I guess we have to find out first if we are dealing with a narcissist or not to find out if it is gaslighting.

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. MommyPino says:

            HG, I think I am figuring it out the more I read your book. Gaslighting seems to be done with an intent to gaslight as in an intent to alter the victim’s reality. Madeline didn’t have that intent, she lied as a reaction to keep her secret secret from Ed, not to hurt Ed. Yeah, I don’t think that someone with empathy would gaslight anyone because that is contrary to having empathy for someone.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            MommyPino: I never saw the Movie: Gaslight, even though the term is from the movie of Gaslight: is a 1940 British film directed by Thorold Dickinson which stars Anton Walbrook and Diana Wynyard, and features Frank Pettingell. The film adheres more closely to the original play upon which it is based – Patrick Hamilton’s Gas Light (1938) – than the better-known 1944 MGM adaptation. The play had been shown on Broadway as Angel Street, so when the film was released in the United States it was given the same name.
            MommyPin: I found the movie on Youtube, attached, and I will watch it now, since I never know how long a film will stay on youtube before it is removed at times:
            Alice Barlow (Marie Wright) is murdered by an unknown man, who then ransacks her house, looking for her valuable and famous rubies. The house remains empty for years, until newlyweds Paul and Bella Mallen move in. Bella (Diana Wynyard) soon finds herself misplacing small objects; and, before long, Paul (Anton Walbrook) has her believing she is losing her sanity. B. G. Rough (Frank Pettingell), a former detective involved in the original murder investigation, immediately suspects him of Alice Barlow’s murder.

            Anton Walbrook as Paul Mallen
            Diana Wynyard as Bella Mallen
            Frank Pettingell as B.G. Rough
            Cathleen Cordell as Nancy the parlour maid

            Robert Newton as Vincent Ullswater
            Minnie Rayner as Elizabeth, the cook
            Jimmy Hanley as Cobb
            Marie Wright as Alice Barlow
            Aubrey Dexter as House agent
            Mary Hinton as Lady Winterbourne
            Angus Morrison as Pianist
            Katie Johnson as Alice Barlow’s maid

    2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Hi MommyPino: I just want to change the subject just for a moment regarding the Ed thread I did not keep up with it, when Woke pointed out to me that one must also follow the time stamps to know what was said and when….but remember, the way society socializes women versus how society socializes men are different. And we are labeled differently. For example, society often says that: Men are strong versus Women are pushy, etc. So even in this field, it is possible that when a woman is confident, she is called a Narcissist, when that is not the case. The woman is just confident. I am very confident in my worldview. I am confident in my morals. I am confident in my brain power and also confident enough to know that I am ignorant about something. I will not let anyone take that from me. So, if I am called Narcissistic or a Narcissist, because of my confidence in myself, in this field, or any field, I will not take much notice of it. I am sure I have been called worse, even though I have not been called worse to my face. So, do not sweat yourself over the Ed thread. Everyone is different. Disagreement does not equal Narcissism. Narcissism equal Narcissism. And there is no indication based on what we are learning that you have clinical NPD. Do not lose your confidence or your knowledge of your sanity to anyone. Without confidence, we become a maudlin, messy, mushy, muddled, mass of murky matter, as a person. And all of you on that Ed thread are muched loved by many of us here on Narcsite, And ALL of you have helped many in various ways on this site. ~~PSE

      1. MommyPino says:

        Aww thank you PSE!! 💕. I know in my heart of hearts that I’m not a narcissist because I was raised by one and we are like polar opposites. I feel bad for people even when I’m alone. I care about people. I feel guilty even when I’m not caught. I have unconditional love for my family. I get genuinely happy for people that I care about when something good happens to them. So I’m pretty sure I’m not a narcissist. I guess it’s the behavior that I was wondering if I really did them. I guess it’s my truth seeking and self flagellating trait. I wanted to make sure that I really didn’t behave in a way that I wasn’t aware of. But also I realized that I still have a lot to learn. Although in the Ed thread I did say that if I’m a narcissist I’ll just accept it. I just thought, if that is really who I am then I’ll just own it. It’s not like there’s anything I can do about it anyway. But I really never thought that I was a narcissist. I just wanted to consult with HG if I was behaving like one and maybe he could help me figure out why I was behaving like one. But now I’m really sure that I didn’t behave like a narc. I was narcissistic at times but not all throughout.

        1. Lorelei says:

          You are far from a narcissist MP. You are a lovely person.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Lorelei! And so are you! You’re a beautiful person. ❤️

  7. emc2gion says:

    Thankyou so much HG! The application of being able to apply your teaching this way has been extremely helpful. As a relatively new comer here, this really has been an eye opener, both learning the characters personalities and having your guidance “to see”. It’s also been an eye opener reading the blog comments, the emotion pouring off the comments about the characters and the individual reactions on here about the show and each other’s opinions were so overwhelming powerful I had to distance myself at times. Wow! A brilliantly written show, with an amazing cast, thankyou for bringing it to everyone’s attention. I think we all see things a lot clearer in terms of empath, normal and narc traits now. I got a few correct, others not so. Bonnie was clear to me, as a contagion myself. Ed was confusing….and I was off, I think the empath and narc traits at certain times threw me….also because MM was a Super I thought she would counter with a narc….to balance. I also found it hard to differentiate at times between the actual actors energy and the characters they were portraying. Once again all hands down, to Meryl Streep….her energy and mannerisms for her character were perfection…to forget someone so famous and believe she is her role is such a gift…..her real life energy reads empathic to me….

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  8. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, re Celeste, you revealed she was a CD. Would a CD be capable of doing what Celeste did in the custody battle? Or would they have crumbled before then?

    I appreciate this was for the purpose of TV and a happy ending. So I just wondered whether they would be capable? Would a CD also go against the N like Celeste did when she did some pro bono legal work for her friends (i forget the exact storyline now), or was that again just for the purpose of TV.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      She could. Note also that by continuing the fight with ML this means that she is continues to feed her addiction, since ML is a narcissist also.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Goodness. Okay thank you. I definitely need to read and understand a bit more about the CD. I hadn’t given it much regard until BLL. I had just assumed all CDs were like a woman I know who has an incredibly domineering husband and she takes a whole concoction of drugs for her anxieties and doesn’t do anything at all without his say so.

        I’ll have to take another view on this.

        1. LC says:

          CoD is a huge spectrum yet again, you could probably make a subclassification for them, too. The central feeling for CoDs is shame – oftentimes they’re/we’re not aware of it. The reason why Celeste does not tell the therapist that she’s dating other men so soon after Perry’s demise (and does so for sex) is that she is ashamed of it. She thinks if she admits to it the therapist will think less of her. Actually there’s nothing really wrong with what she does there, except bringing home those men when the kids are at home, only I think that this situation wouldn’t have occurred if Mary Louise, who was baby sitting, hadn’t (deliberately and cunningly) turned up early.

          I was surprised to see the “replacement” men – I don’t think they suit Celeste’s CoD character, but we need them for season 3 (if there is one). One could use them for a character to construe the case that Celeste didn’t love Perry and that she was the one who was cheating on him, and that, as an “apparent sex addict”, she probably did it before he died blablabla…. The series could then let Celeste win yet again, to make a political point: that women are deemed “sluts” of they love sex whereas men get away with the same kind of behaviour.

          I saw in reviews that there was a debate between reviewers, that predominantly angry white old men didn’t get BLL whereas female reviewers loved it. I haven’t found many reviews that mentioned the word narcissism … But I haven’t done a thorough search.

      2. WokeAF says:

        Just to clarify- can CoDeps have narcissistic traits such as pride, control etc

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Can Codependents be physically abusive? I have a friend who I have always considered to be very empathic although she has poor boundaries and a need to help everybody except herself but she is physically abusive to her children.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Anybody may respond in a physical fashion given a certain situation, however the fact that she is physically abusive to her children suggests she is not a codependent.

          3. Twisted Heart says:

            Ok Thanks HG. I think in her case it happens more regularly. Her situation reminds me of my own mother and that’s why I find it confusing. Is it narcissism or just someone under extreme pressure as a single mom?
            However I’m a single mom and I could never put that kind of pain on my children, mostly because I was on the receiving end of it for most of my childhood and I know the kind of damage it does.

          4. LC says:

            Twisted Heart

            CoDs are misunderstood and misrepresented like narcissts. I think HGs article could do with an expansion (second third fourth piece) . Chained is good. The CoD article is too broad and kind of misleading. But he’s not a CoD and understandibly focuses on the narc perspective – there’s more to CoD life than he has described so far.

            CoD controlling behaviour is not the same as narc controlling behaviour – there is much to write and explain still… And as somebody – I think it was NA – pointed out, other kinds of empaths are controlling – until they become aware of this and learn to replace this with constructive conflict strategies.

        2. LC says:

          Oh yes, they do. But you can certainly become aware of them, I don’t control anymore. And when I controlled then only because I didn’t realise I was doing it. To stop controlling I had to learn to say no. If you can say no to something you can also say yes. If you can say no, you sense and respect other people’s no’s. CoD is, like narcissism, a coping strategy – because we don’t know better, but we can learn … Most narcissistic traits are good anyway if held in balance!

  9. Caroline R says:

    I need you to walk me through the MMM character as Super Empath.
    I have so many seesawing thoughts about her and I don’t know whether I’m able to be objective about her.
    I don’t know whether my own sublimated anger issues and being treated badly for my emotional insensity are getting in the way.
    Maybe I’m in denial about my own intensity.
    No. I pick my battles.
    I can be calm and peaceful, and fierce where appropriate.
    I work out my anger privately so that I can confront calmly.
    I become overwrought and angry when I feel drained and need a holiday. I know how to manage myself so that I don’t get to that point often. I don’t work 12-hour days for this reason.
    I thought that I wasn’t like her, but I am when chronically stressed. My fuse becomes as short as hers. I’m not crude though when I’m angry.
    I spend more time alone to recharge at this point.
    MMM seems unable to decompress, but perhaps that’s to drive the plot.

    I didn’t understand why MMM was so overwound and overbearing from the first scene. Where is her inner peace?
    I found her obnoxious.
    She softened with time, but maybe she needed to work through some personal issue(s). Maybe the influence of Jane and Celeste, and MMM’s lover, and everything else in her life were catalysts that accelerated events to the final episode in season 1.
    Maybe she needed the friendship of Jane, and Celeste. Maybe their paths of personal growth had to intersect and collide at just the right moment.
    She had some unmet emotional needs, as we all do, no one’s life is perfect.

    She seemed controlling with introverted Jane, but maybe she was just overwrought.
    Maybe she had a N-parent and struggles with balance in relationships. Maybe Jane’s situation hit a raw place in her heart, and by helping Jane, she could bring healing to herself. Maybe that contributed to her softening with time. Maybe she had a need to feel understood.

    MMM has an intense, immediate, visceral response to finding out that her daughter plans to sell her virginity. She goes to speak with her daughter, and she seems to have her daughter’s wellbeing at heart. MMM’s empathetic nature is visible here, under difficult circumstances. She lets her guard down, something that a N would never do. She’s authentic here with her daughter.

    Her ex-N husband was marring her relationship with her current husband. There was unresolved pain.
    Of course! There always is with an ex-N.

    She has an extroverted personality, and so has married introverted normal Ed. There is zero chemistry between them until he sings to her as Elvis. Their physical passion is cringeful and wooden.

    I’m introverted so my empath behaviour is different to hers.
    Ed isn’t attractive to me, nor is Nathan. It makes it harder to make a comparison. I better understand the initial attraction that Celeste and Jane had to Perry.
    MMM’s seen running with Celeste and Jane. We both need to exercise to manage stress and for fitness.

    She had some stressors that she needed support with, she wanted fulfilment and a new purpose in life, some deeper meaning … her yelling “I want more!” in the car with Celeste speaks of her unfulfilled longing.
    She’s frustrated. This comes out as anger. It comes out as aggression.
    It causes her to follow her passions into the arms of another man.
    I understand all of that.

    She regretted being unfaithful to Ed.

    Everything in the plotline was working towards that denouement of Perry at the bottom of the stairs.
    Jane’s Ziggy, Renata’s Amabella, who was being bullied by Celeste’s son, were all cogs in the necessary machinery to bring about Perry’s death.

    Of course, as the juror says in the beginning “if Madeline hadn’t stopped and got out of her car that day, none of it would have happened…”

    The writer needed the Madeline character to be like a pressure cooker from long term stress to set into motion the chain of events.

    1. LC says:


      all your observations and MMM make sense to me and also in the other thread. The problem seems to me that you find it difficult to accept that you’re in the same empathic category?

      If viewed with the end in mind the MMM character is clearly capable of empathy. But she makes bad choices, one of them is not being honest about her emotional needs. This is why she has the affair with the theatre director rather than working things out with Ed. If I’m not mistaken the affair is in full swing when the story sets in.

      When Ed confronts her (he can sense something is up) she doesn’t come clean. Although Ed knows something is up he is mistaken about the reasons. His idea is that she is still hankering after Nathan. That Ed has the wrong idea is beneficial for Madeline in the sense that it helps her covering up what is really going on. So some of her behavior serves the cover up. Then Nathan moved to Monterey only shortly before the events set in if I remember correctly. Nathan had cheated on her, which we also only find out much later. Now she is a cheat herself. But all the same she wants to feel alive. This is a massive inner conflict, and it takes its toll on the people around her.

      I think the character portrayal is very well done, not least because we are meant to get the wrong idea about Madeline. BLL is ultimately about abuse and narcissistic abuse happens behind the scenes. As viewers we are introduced to the various facades and are then slowly invited to take a peep behind them.

      Each mother has their very own secret. Madeline the affair. Jane having been raped. Celeste the abuse. Bonnie that she doesn’t love Nathan and doesn’t believe in her New Age treatment stuff (says it’s a huge cash cow). Renata: that she thinks she’s better than everybody else. They are all guarding their secrets and they are revealed in various conflicts that they have with one another – and especially also with themselves.

      Being capable of empathy does not mean that one is necessarily in tune with oneself. HG’s classification of empathic people from CoD to normal the way I understand it has nothing to do with the degree to which one is in tune with oneself. And as you pointed out, there is also introversion and extroversion to think about and much much more.

      The bottom line is : Everybody, absolutely everybody is capable of narcissistic behaviour. The question is to which degree though. One’s own narcissism always is in the way of seeing oneself how one truly is.

      And what’s also important: empathic and narcisstic traits in a person are in conflict and need to be balanced. In a healthy person they are largely in tune – but nobody is always in tune.

      What’s interesting to look at, then, is the various ways conflicts are resolved. Those with oneself and those with others. Narcissists are not interested in doing that, MMM is.

      1. Caroline R says:

        Thank you for your reply!
        I found it so satisfying, such great food for thought, as you touched on the various themes and put words to some of my impressions.

        I would have loved to have you as my English Literature teacher!
        The themes of identity, becoming ourselves, and personal growth are endlessly fascinating, and pertinent to the readers here.

        The inner conflict is there….you correctly identified it. I have so much repressed anger from having an upper Lesser N-Mother, and I’m having to acknowledge it and learn to work through it, and express it without feeling overwhelmed by it.

        We do have a blind spot about ourselves, and it’s been demonstrated well on the Ed-thread.

        I’ve just remembered now that many times while I was still living with my parents, I drove home from work late at night and sat in my car in the street, and yelled in frustration and needing help. I yelled out to God in deep pain, I knew that He was listening; I didn’t understand and I wanted to. I read everything that I could find to get insight.
        I wanted freedom!
        I didn’t understand abuse and trauma bonds, and why I never felt good enough.

        I was labelled “bipolar” by my dad to others in an effort to control me. I was astonished when I heard that as there’s no evidence of it. When asked how he came to that conclusion, he said “because she makes her nieces and nephews laugh, and she laughs with them”.
        That’s because we love each other!
        We’re full of joy in each other’s company!
        It’s real and we trust each other.

        This very thing, the love I feel for and inspire in others, has been used by my parents, and my sister as a stick to beat me with, and a thing to emotionally blackmail me with.
        It’s also been a trigger of envy and jealous rages directed against me.
        I looked at some treasured photos of me with my niece recently. They’d been put away since no contact with her mother so that I could bear the grief of loss of my niece and nephews. As I held the photos I felt a familiar smothering tightness in my stomach and chest: the ugly coercive control exerted against me, the years of being in devaluation and being punished but never knowing why, and being unable to discuss it respectfully or to resolve it. The lies, the drama created out of nothing, the bullying, the no one on my side, the walking on eggshells.

        My N-Mother died 2011, but my dad is still running the N’s game.
        As you said, Empaths aren’t ‘good’ or perfect in behaviour at all times. They’re easily warped and twisted by bad (N) company. They’re easily brainwashed and gaslighted. They twist themselves up in the N-dynamic, and do it to survive, but they can still inflict damage on others by commission or omission in that dynamic.

        I started writing this reply to your comment yesterday, and had to leave it while I dealt with the rush of realisation, and the waves of pain that came; I started to cry.
        I sobbed.
        All the pain of being treated badly for my feelings. Being ignored. Being invalidated. Not being able to have an opinion that differed. Not being able to object to something, or to have a boundary. Not being able to be myself, but a construct that N-Mother forced on me. Having to be a wind-up toy, pushed out to perform, the “make me look good, but don’t outshine me!” message.
        The jealous rages triggered.
        The never feeling good enough.
        The condoned bullying.
        The emotional abandonment, and that even now from my dad.
        The lack of emotional safety.
        The lack of physical safety.
        The loss of my uncle (dad’s brother) four weeks ago, and the fact that I couldn’t go to his funeral because the N-sister and her husband were going to be there. I couldn’t stomach their fakeness and pretence.
        I couldn’t pretend that my dad and I have anything more than an acquaintance.
        The years of sublimated anger

        These thoughts follow on from the comments that I made a week ago on the ‘Sadistic Streak’ post. I’m thinking particularly of the things that I discussed with the counsellor.

        I didn’t want to identify with MMM because it connected me to those emotionally tortured parts of myself that I have had to disconnect from, so that they don’t hurt me so much. I feel like I’ve been repeatedly bitten and mauled by dogs, by the Ns in my family.

        I am like MMM.
        I have to allow myself the intensity of my feelings, and also the pain that this recognition triggers, secondary to N-abuse.

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          Oh Caroline💕
          Thank you for being so open and authentic about how you have felt your entire life. I understand too well the pain you feel from being diminished by those who are supposed to love you but are intimidated/scared/jealous of your light but are more than happy to “showboat” you when it’s convenient for them. Our most natural and beautiful traits make us easy targets to be scapegoated and they try to squash us because they know our light will expose their truth.
          One of my favourite proverbs is “They tried to bury us. They didn’t know we were seeds.”
          Keep shining! Keep growing!
          There is nothing to be ashamed of and you have support here.
          Continue to seek answers and enjoy this new sense of freedom.

        2. Twisted Heart says:

          I also related to MMM and was so worried that HG was going to come back and say she was a narc. I was holding my breath and had all my fingers and toes crossed hoping she was a Super Empath. If she did turn out to be a narcissist, my whole world would have been upside down and I would have thrown in the towel because I wouldn’t have known what was real anymore.
          My first instinct was that she had a good heart but I started reading other comments and waivered on my decision. So another lesson this exercise re-taught me was to trust my gut.

    2. nunya biz says:

      Caroline R, sorry this is long…
      One thing I relate to with Madeline is like you say the “pressure cooker” thing. She is under attack a lot if looking at it objectively and then simultaneously some of her decisions get her blamed for everything. I believe it is something inherent in her demeanor that causes this and it is the thing I related to the most- like an N could totally get away with everything and she has to careen agitatedly through, determined not to stop regardless of people trying to knock her off the path. Her point of view is encapsulated in herself and difficult to share with others who approach things differently and probably care less and would likely not do ANYTHING, which frustrates her. From a selfish point of view, Madeline’s, her feelings are understandable….

      -She is helping with the play. This is good of her, it is for good reasons. She gets little support for it and is running on her own steam. Even the director doesn’t care as much.
      -She is bored with her husband. Why? He is boring in some ways, not others. She loves him though, but probably needs the release of some passion. Ed doesn’t quite understand all of her frustrations about the way things are.
      -She is attacked by Renata while trying to do the right thing. It is right, she can’t stop herself from seeing the obvious and doing the right thing. Again, it’s mostly under her own steam and her virtue is mostly unrewarded in that area for some time. She takes the heat.
      -She is obliquely attacked/poked by Nathan fairly regularly and it irritates her. She knows her drives and motives are different from him and she can’t get rid of him.
      -She becomes very directly verbally attacked by the director she shared herself with and passionately helped and supported. This is because he is a narcissist and wasn’t interested in her for those things. So it was completely unfair of him to attack her from that perspective, she had only been good to him but she can sense he’s not really seeing that . He didn’t even care that he caused a car accident, her safety and wellbeing was never an issue for him and never would have been, that’s why she resisted his advances, he was full of shit and Ed isn’t.
      -She is directly verbally attacked by Mary Louise while trying to help Celeste.

      I relate to her possibly feeling like people are crazy while trying to sort through a life that somehow works the way it seems like it should. While also caring about other people and not understanding why things are going the way they are and wanting some justice (the play, Ziggy, Jane’s rape) and finding out that all of the N’s (Nathan, the play director, Mary Louise) always win because you don’t have the “tool” in your belt of painting people fully black or airtight manipulative facades, you just have some fear, evasion tactics, imperfect objectivity, and passion.

      IMO, she mostly keeps her shit together while people are being mostly crazy toward her. Granted the affair was wrong, but at the same time was it? It’s understandable she was missing something and there are aspects of her she doesn’t get to set free with Ed and she knows they are there all the time, she knows and he doesn’t. Her approach to her daughter was wrong, imo, but I realize when I think about it I’ve navigated decisions wrongly in trying to push my daughter in a particular direction, I can think of one recently I’ve been frustrated with myself about. Then I learn from it, can’t undo it unfortunately.
      I have also done similar to what happened in the yoga studio. I actually really liked that scene, one of the funnier ones, with the “don’t touch me” and middle finger flipping. But I’m only like that when I’m on a short fuse day, like you say I’m usually pretty much the opposite. There are just days I don’t like feeling controlled or pushed and I get really snappy out of no where, I usually regret it after. I didn’t like how she was toward Bonnie, but I think I have more awareness than I used to years ago and I remember in my past taking the wrong side in disagreements or being convinced of something that wasn’t true and she does seem to come around.
      I’m always frantically sorting my mind through “why”, “why is this like this” my husband tries to be patient but doesn’t get it. The fact is HE DOESN’T CARE. And because of that he looks like the sane one. He would not care at all about fixing the play or is Celeste ok at home with her husband or if Jane was raped or if Ziggy goes to a party. Ed even said it wasn’t fair to their daughter to miss the party, he just didn’t care enough to do something, and would never in a million years do anything about it unless she forced it. Most people wouldn’t. And her caring makes her somewhat of a target unfortunately, which doesn’t seem easy to understand, so we fill in the blanks with rationalizing that she is the problem, but from her point of view she is COMPELLED and has no choice but to act in those ways.

      Anyway, not saying she’s a hero at all, just was doing an exercise of perspective and motivation.
      Just some thoughts I was putting together after the results came out. I liked your post, Caroline R. I think the MMM character could grow into a more serene person with some HG Tudor articles.

      1. LC says:

        Nunya biz

        I love your post.
        The characters are clearly getting rounder when we move from the narc lens to other aspects that motivate them. And again, these are fictional constructs, and for constructs they’re amazingly well done I think.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Thank you LC, I have been looking into writing lately and have been doing some more writing at home and your recent comments have included a lot of writer’s perspective. I noted one of your comments in my personal notes for character development, specifically about unresolvable conflicts, which I actually think are also a part of real life constantly and are unavoidable. As HG says, “from your perspective”. Really from the ultimate objective perspective, none of it even matters until we bring in the concept of empathy (which I passionately support), so we are only talking about point of view even when we think we are being objective. I agree “rounder”, I think the motivations are interesting.

          1. LC says:

            Nunya biz

            “Really from the ultimate objective perspective, none of it even matters until we bring in the concept of empathy (which I passionately support),”

            Yes, true, I do too, and if we look at HG’s writing, it works so well because he can switch POV and actually emulate the *other* side which isn’t so other in so many ways.

            The pieces that I like best are the ones when you don’t know who is who. When one perspective chillingly blends into the other.

            When I first read his stuff I thought he couldn’t *really* be a narcissist because how can someone who claims to be an emotional vampire write like this.

            But putting my logic cap on I can think of a number of great writers who I suspect were greater narcs. Goethe for instance, must have been an elite. His affairs…. Boy, don’t get me started. He had an amazing output as well. Writing wasn’t even his day job, he had a demanding government job and he was doing all kind of research into plants, minerals, rocks and also colours. His most famous play, Faust, a lot of people here probably know it, because it made such a splash that it’s still one of the most important pieces of world literature to date, is about a Machiavellian character called Mephisto =the devil in a human guise.

            Mephisto has a bet with God and claims that he can ensnare him and turn him into one of his own. Faust is a respected, God fearing ageing grumpy old scholar who has studied everything there is to be studied, except nothing really has any meaning to him. Basically he’s depressed and in a midlife crisis.

            The first thing Mephisto does age he has won Faust’s interest is that he adds a bit of magic to Faust’s appearance so he looks young and attractive. Then they go about and chat up lovely co-dependent and very insecure Gretchen. They have plenty of gifts to love bomb her with
            One of the most famous scenes is how she sits in her chamber and spins wool with a heavy heart. She can’t think of anyone but Faust but he and his mate who makes her feel uncomfortable are gone (sound familiar?) Can something that feels so nice be so wrong she asks herself in one of the most moving bits of poetry.

            Faust is long gone, he has made her pregnant and Mephisto says no big deal, let’s be off bro. Gretchen’s family is onto Mephisto which means that they die. Gretchen dies. Her child dies. They all die. Faust survives and on he goes into the follow up play Faust II which is mega cerebral and brainy so brainy I won’t even attempt to summarise it.

            Goethe didn’t only do a good job on Mephisto, he knew how to depict Gretchen too. And her mother, wait for it, is a Matrinarc.

            I asked my analyst how it can be that narc writers have this gift of sensing and knowing and even convincingly portraying the emotions of others. She said it was their mode of survival. In her terms and understanding narcissists have tonnes of empathy. They sense and they read people’s emotions – better than most. Look at HG: it’s true!

            Being able to read people emotionally is another definition of empathy. The problem the way my analyst put it is though that they USE people and that they don’t care if they hurt people when they use them.

            Narcs can stop using people if they choose to. They usually don’t though, as we all know.

            A better, or perhaps less misleading term for “empath” might be *givers*.

            Givers needn’t always be empathic. Looked at in this way HG’s classification appears in a different light. You then get different kinds of givers – who sometimes act empathically and caring and sometimes they don’t.

            If narcissism is about fuel, then the so called “empaths” are the givers of fuel, and narcissists the users.

            I think we would be more honest with each other if we didn’t confuse the giving of fuel with being kind and empathic.

            Givers have the ability to care and we abhor hurting people. If we think of ourselves as the great empathic kind though, we’re deluding ourselves in narcissistic ways. That’s my take anyway. And I think we shouldn’t be deluding ourselves in the interest of empathy!

            So yes, nunya biz, I agree, empathy rocks. I’ve wanted to write something like this here for ages and didn’t because I thought I was going to get lynched.

            But now I don’t care – come one ye empaths lynch me 🙂

          2. nunya biz says:

            LC, I had written a long response to this yesterday but then deleted it : P
            I thought it was too wordy, though it made sense to me. I was talking about empathy not being about “pain-avoidance” necessarily, because that is frequently narcissism, but it is about that support, commiseration in the face of the unavoidable, helping hands, etc…
            Pain mitigation sometimes? But pain isn’t always bad, it’s educational and informative and a product of attachment.

            Ha, Faust sounds like a real downer! I have not read or studied it, but it seems apt. How choices come with sacrifice and consequence and control is paid for. It sounds like the bleakest version, but I get hung up on that sometimes. What are we missing by going different directions. Which is maybe what you were saying about thinking empathy is the ultimate kindness- I think it true form it is more about love than convincing and more about a hug than fixing.
            I think being able to determine the difference between giving fuel and being empathetic is very difficult, even when reading the right things, because it’s like flying blind. Not understanding the rules of the game and sometimes even trying to play and playing wrong. I think you mentioned “awareness” and I think it helps with being more genuine of intention. Not a pushover, a better decision maker and with more confident empathy.

      2. Twisted Heart says:

        YESSSS Nunya!!!!
        Thank you for putting into words the very thing I am struggling with in my own life. Caring too much!!!! Not many seem to get it and it is exhausting and I feel like I’m constantly having to explain myself. It must be an empath thing. I wish there was more desire for people to understand each other but it seems like most people simply don’t care.
        Take this site for example, I have shared it with so many people who are interested in narcissism and they all look at me like i’m crazy. But there are thousands of us on here that have found HG’s teachings absolutely life saving and transformative. Why do I feel like the odd one out lately in my circle of friends? Is this just part of the path when you are a truth seeker? Anybody?

        1. LC says:

          Hi Twisted Heart,
          Yes, I can relate. It’s like I want to talk about narcissism and nobody cares and thinks I’m a bit odd (which is probably true) and I’ve stopped doing it, though I still refer people to this site sometimes. One of the things I realised is that I instinctively surrounded myself with people who fall into the spectrum in some way or other. Realising this is heart breaking. But I’m here to grow not to resign!

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Thank You LC,
            I read that and had a huge sigh of relief. It feels so good to be understood. I also surround myself with CoD, E’s and N’s instinctively and am going through a complete overhaul of who I can keep in my life and feel safe and supported. It is heartbreaking but like you said necessary for growth. I recently deactivated all of my social media. That is a huge addiction for me and keeps my emotional thinking very high. It’s way to easy to “slip up” using social media and it was creating a lot of anxiety in my life. I can already see a positive change just after one week. I did go on last night for a bit though but I’m back on the wagon today.
            Lots of big changes in my life these days but I’m moving towards peace and contentment bit by bit.

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          Twisted Heart. Although I realised quite quickly that the vast majority of other people are just not interested in this, I still wished it to be different. Even most of those who I would consider to be empaths or highly empathic still don’t seem to want to see what was going on for them. One or two even seem to understand the concept of narcissism to some degree but still believe this person can change and that they have some good inside them somewhere. I guess because they see the ‘good deeds’ they perform and assume there must be. It is quite difficult to get your head round the concept that some people are simply just bad. Especially when they (the narc) outwardly display what would accord with ‘good behavior’ Others don’t realise this is either self-serving or done to manipulate and obtain fuel . But most people just don’t want to/ not ready to consider the concept of narcissism at all.

          I have reached a stage of complete acceptance now, that most people do not want to learn the truth. I’ve learned to pick up on those who would be interested in reading HG’s work and make sure they hear of it.

          I too feel like I’d like to talk about it all the time with others. Especially as you say, there are so many people who are interested in and engage in HG’s work.

          Perhaps what we all have in common on this site is a very strong trait to seek the truth.

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Thanks Alexis for making me feel like I’m not alone and crazy. I guess I need to reel in my saviour traits and not try to “out” everyone I think is a narc or not try to push my truth onto others. What I am struggling with is what other people think about me. Like I’m the crazy, over sensitive, unrealistic one who can’t let things go. I just want to scream “Can’t you see what is really going on here??!!!”
            Not caring what other people think would be the best narc trait to have. Those lucky SOB’s!

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            You’re definitely not crazy or over sensitive. We’re the new normal! They can’t see, nor can they be expected to. Don’t try and convince them. Just smile sweetly and go about your business. You can learn to not let it bother you what others think. I’m sure HG Would be able to help you with that. Big love and hugs x

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed I can.

          4. Hmmmm I agree it would definitely be a good trait to have. I think if I had to chose, the narc trait I’d like to have would be to not experience fear. HG – do I sense another poll…

        3. nunya biz says:

          Yeah, I frequently feel like I’m on another planet.

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Planet Empath❤️

  10. FYC says:

    As expected, I was not very accurate–5 correct, 5 incorrect (50%). Yet I am still pleased, because I have gone from not knowing much about narcissism to being fairly accurate determining N v. E (80%). On three of my five incorrect selections, I only need to do a better job on schools levels. I was on the fence about Ed, so I was not too surprised I was wrong (I still see passive aggressive traits in Ed, so maybe those can coexist with normals?). I got Renata completely wrong (she is very narcissistic, so I thought her to be a N).

    Thank you so much for this exercise, HG. I learned a great deal in the process and your answers helped me learn even more. I hope you choose another show/movie to have us perform the same exercise or a different exercise that helps us determine school and cadre. I would very much like to improve. Thanks again.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re most welcome.

    2. MommyPino says:

      FYC, I just want to say thank you to the fair and balanced analysis that you wrote on the infamous Ed Thread. I thought that you made a lot of sense explaining the difference in our backgrounds and where our perspectives were coming from. I didn’t see it until today.

  11. Whitney says:

    HG, I got 3 correct, is that dungeon?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, extra class.

      1. jessrnny says:

        I’ve never had so much fun being wrong.

    2. Whitney: I missed on these people, as well. When I was wrong, I was right, and when I was right, I was wrong. Save a seat for me in extra class. Just you and me and Hg Tudor. It’s fine with me

  12. Victoria says:

    All the explanations about every character, including why Perry is a Mid Ranger (I voted Greater) and Mary Louise a Greater (I was correct) make sense to me. I’m just confused about Renata and what is a Narcissist vs A Narcissist but not a Narcissist. Anyone? HG?

      1. LC says:

        Hi HG,

        I think a case can be made also for narcissist and Renata displaying the fake (pretend) midrange empathy of a person who regards herself as a good mother and has some cognitive idea what motherly behaviour is (e.g. protecting a child from abuse) – but misunderstands motherly behavior emotionally (thus cannot empower the child to defend herself against abuse). I
        tried arguing for this view in a longer comment engaging with E. B. s arguments why Renata is merely narcissistic, it’s in moderation still.

        What would help me is a breakdown of the difference between a greater matrinarc, a midrange matrinarc, a lesser one and a narcissistic mother. I assume a greater matrinarc (like Marie Louise) knows that she is abusive, and a midrange one would not know that. Renata withholds intimacy – which is a form of child abuse. I think there is not a single scene in which Renata and Amabella are shown alone together! Compare the Ziggy Jane dynamic.

        There is a strong political message behind this of course as well, as in “single mothers are not bad mothers”; the best of all mothers on the show is a single mum (Jane), the worst (Renata) “has it all”. (ML who is clearly worse than Renata doesn’t count here because she is portrayed as a grandmother).

        Importantly, Jane is also a working mum – a better mother still than the stay-at-home mother Celeste and Madeline who works part time. Her son Ziggy turns out as the most empathic child, he is even more empathic than the teacher which is shown in the scene in which Ziggy understands “Charlotte’s Web” better than the teacher who – weirdly – wants to make the book all about climate change. And that’s the scene in which Amabella’s anxiety attack occurs. A clear strategic antagonism: Ziggy has the deepest of empathy that surpasses that of adults in the care of an entire class of children, vs. Amabella has anxiety – both is established in the same scene. And the narrative “blames” the mothers for this (rightly so in my eyes). The narrative also partly blames the teachers for Amabella’s anxiety (the therapist comes to the conclusion school and parents are the cause) so the case isn’t entirely clear.

        I’m not convinced yet that Renata is not a midranger…

  13. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, what I fail to understand (and this is probably because I’ve only been ensnared by a greater as an IPSS), is that you prefer Magnet SEs and yet it is clear with MMM that she spends much of her time helping others and rush to the aide of her friends.

    How does this work for you? Or would your be able to control them to a level so that this aspect of their personality is dimmed? Is this part of the challenge for you?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It’s best fit
      2. She’s not ensnared by a narcissist romantically is she, therefore she has added time
      3. Plot necessity

      1. WokeAF says:

        Lost in all these threads and I missed this MMM is a magnet ? That was my first impression but then I went to Saviour.
        Is she both? what did I miss here?

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Of course. Thank you. It makes more sense with Ed being a normal too. Because I thought MMM was a narc, I wondered why a normal would stay? So thought he must be higher on empathy although this didn’t particularly show.

        So good as always to have your clarity on these matters.

        Right! BLL behind me and back to the real world where Ns truly exist and can be dangerous!

  14. what are MMM and Celeste in RL HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Nothing, they’re fictional characters my friend, now haven’t you got a dentist’s appointment?

      1. Grrrr! hahahah I’ve no intention of going to the dentist. I can carry that look off no sweat! plus they serve as my narc repellent.

        1. MB says:

          AS2016, I must have missed something on another thread. I’m not following along much these days. Sounds like a fun story.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah, you haven’t missed anything at all MB. Basically, I confessed to HG as part of a consult that I was rather unfortunate looking, and my teeth aren’t in good shape. HG was just being mean to me. I think he thought it was funny. But I’m quite happy with the way I am. Like I said, narc repellant, although it could explain why I attract so many damn victim Ns!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Now now behave yourself. You did not confess this during a consultation at all. You recently sent me a picture of some lady (which is not you because I know who the person in the picture is) claiming this was you. The lady in the picture has terrible teeth, hence my remark. Furthermore information you have provided me in consultation would not support such poor dental hygiene or appearance.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            God damn it! You’re too highly skilled HG! I’m no match for you!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I am obliged and there’s the application of logic so I tip my metaphorical hat to you.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            I can override my N trait of price when I recognise someone’s brilliance over me. N or not an N. By thanks re taking your hat off to me

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and that is why you are not a narcissist.

          7. Lorelei says:

            Haha Alexis! It’s sad how we can’t match up!

          8. Lol thanks Lorelei. We’d make a great team! Imagine…

  15. MMM is starting to make more sense. I just feel her empathic traits didn’t shine as much as I would have imagined them to.

    I guess I do build rapport with people instantly. So did she, and so do Narcs.

    She came clean about the affair and ended it.

    She shows little love for Nathan which made me think of her as an N. but then he is rather dull. Not someone I’d get romantically involved with.

    I found her overly controlling of her children. I can definitely be overly controlling when I think its the right thing to do. But I recognise this and pull myself back. But god, how would I react given the dilema she had with her daughter. unimaginable!

    I’ve done things almost identical to what she did when Ziggy wasn’t invited. But not with children. Oh and I made sure that I came out on top. There would have been no party for Renata! Her daughter was sweet though, so I would not have done that.

    I was also thinking she neglects her husband alot and does spend more time with others, again a narc would also do this and he is rather dull.

    She didn’t cry in front of Jane. If I did not know about Ns and Es etc I would have assumed she was genuinely sad for her friend. but because we didn’t actually know why she cried, I had incorrectly assumed it was self-pity.

    1. LC says:

      I’d also add that not all magnets are the same. MMM is not THE template – we’re not cardboard cutouts but individuals, so something tells me that you’re not really like her…. You have all your individual traits that don’t have anything to do with narcissism and how to avoid it!

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks LC, yes, I guess I was basing it on myself and one of my close friends. I do find it more tricky to rate people on observing them. I need the interaction and to feel their responses to certain situations.

        You’re completely right, we’re still all very much individuals.

        My magnetism is very different to that of my friend. We make an incredible team though and I love her!

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        I’m guessing it also much more difficult to see your own narc traits too. So when you see them in others….

        I’m learning though, what mine are and when they shine brightest.

    2. jessrnny says:

      Empaths are extremely controlling imo. We “know” what’s right and if people don’t follow our advice, in particular our children, it bothers us on a multitude of levels. My empathic friends always tried to control my mood and cheer me up and many gave poor advice while trying to maintain no contact. Thats only the beginning….

      MMM easily comes off as a narcissist bc injustice triggers her need to control. Judges should be SE’s. A SE can understand every side of an issue while many cant bc their perspective is limited to a narcissistic one or an empathic one,

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        That is so true Jessrnny. I’d never thought of it like that before. That empaths can be controlling. This was something I truly questioned about myself in the beginning, thinking that I could not be an emapth because of this trait.

        You make a really good point about Judges! yes, they should definitely be SEs. So damn true! I judge everyone hahahah

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I agree with your assessment. I find empaths very controlling. We just don’t see it that way because we believe ourselves to be of good intention and on the ‘right’ side of most issues. It’s just a different shade of control. Also, good point that injustice can trigger narcissistic behaviour. It can sure trigger mine.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Ha. Yup

    3. Whitney says:

      It’s interesting how Narcs and Empaths have things in common like building rapport instantly.
      I always think the Narcs are Empaths.

  16. MommyPino says:

    I’m also surprised that Perry is a Mid-Ranger because I didn’t think that Mid-Rangers can be violent.

    Also seeing Madeline as an example of a Super Empath and Jane as a Standard clears up a lot of confusion for me regarding what a Standard vs a Super Empath is. Now I understand that it isn’t a hierarchy on who’s a better or kinder person. I finally get it.

    Thank you HG for this interesting exercise. I learned a lot.

    1. Hi Mommy Pino: I understood that all the Narcs can be violent, with differing methodology, from obvious violence to the subtle, to even `accidentally` being violent if they think they can get away with it. Some with no forethought and some with extreme calculation. HG has a book that is on my first 10 books list of his works: I do not remember the exact title, but it is something like 50 things not to do with a Narcissist. I wonder if the book discusses unsafe situations. I would say that even a Greater would be violent if his control was breached or if some convenient circumstance was present. I sure would not test a Greater, to see whether or not I am correct.

      1. MommyPino says:

        Thank you PSE. What you said makes sense. If they have very high entitlement and no empathy, they can be violent. I guess it’s because my MRN sister wasn’t violent and at times she even looked like she was scared of me being potentially violent with her and that violence was beneath her. But maybe the female narcissists are also different from the male narcissists. I second on not testing a Greater. It may not even have to be physical violence that they will deploy than scares me but the malign campaign that they are capable of doing which has a reputation of destroying the sanity of healthy people.

        1. MommyPino: Regarding your sister, I notice that society also keeps women in check. Women are rigorously restrained from being violent from childhood on, and that may be a factor why women are in general less physically violent than men. Also, the thought of violent women is so abhorrent to society that it is viewed as abnormal behavior, and the media likewise rarely discusses the violence that women partake in. We do not know how physically violent females are percentage wise, because that info is not encouraged to be sought out? Female violence is practically a taboo topic in society. Even law enforcement largely finds it distasteful when a male makes a report of domestic violence perpetrated against him by a female, although by law the police have to take the report, and follow the established procedures originally made to protect women. Many men suffer in silence just to avoid the stigma of being abused by a female, as well. Also there are are tipping points that may bring out the violent behavior in women, despite all of this conditioning, but the tipping point is not always breached, or perhaps women handle their violent tendencies in different ways? In your sister`s case, I really do not know why she is not physically violent. I do know that HG says that his first level of information is basically the broad brush strokes, and next he brings out more and more of the relevant particulars, the variations on a theme, to explain in greater detail NPD, such as: Why one Narcissist is one way in particular and a different Narcissist is another way in particular, also depending upon their school and cadre/s. And any gender differences, although I do not know of many of the gender differences, but due to the fact that the genders are different, by definition, there will be some differences in behavior. Including how they operate utilizing different methodology to achieve their prime aims. HG used the word methodology today to explain why Mary Louise is a Greater Middle versus a Middle Mid Range Narcissist. If your sister is of the Victim category, she may not want to come off as being violent, but she would rather come off as being afraid and scared, as her methodology, (if I am using the word correctly). She will act afraid and scared and unable to speak up for herself, if her Narcissism has determined that such scared behaviour would give her the best chance of survival at any given time. But, she too also would be violent if the Narcissism were to give her the green light.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thank you PSE. My sister was an Elite. She liked to sound smart and look classy. I am not violent but when she saw that I was finally losing my cool, she acted like she is walking away from a safe distance from me. I grew up like a pauper and she grew up like a princess and she seemed to enjoy using that to support her establishing of her superiority over me in terms of class. I haven’t seen her be violent but I remember my dad telling me that she can be scary. He said that one time he asked her to help him by picking up his documents to help me get my US citizenship while he was bedridden in the hospital for pneumonia. She got the documents from the mail and when she went to the hospital she threw the folder at him which he said hurt him. He didn’t tell anybody except me. At that time I couldn’t understand why she would do that to a sick old man who even happens to be her own dad. Now I get the heated fury thing.

            Great point about the difference in gender. I believe that my husband’s ex wife is a Victim Narcissist. She once got mad at him about one of their kids starting to call his second wife mom. He was sarcastic and dismissive of her so she punched him on his chest. He was shocked and he told her, “you punched me!” She just left like she didn’t care. His chest kept hurting the whole day so he had it x-rated and found out that she broke a rib bone. His second wife pushed him to file a lawsuit and his ex wife only got a slap on the wrist because she’s a woman.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            MommyPino. So interesting!! I had mostly male family members. It is so different. I never saw the different sides of women growing up. My mom is intellectual and in her own world, managing the home. Stay-at-home-mom, they call it now. My dad: practical and stabilizer in the family. That is all I knew. Women to be intellectual at home and men to be the stabilizer in the family. Now that I am an adult, women are largely the stabilizers and many men have gone the other way, as they call it. And I say, as the song goes,`How Do I Work This?` And I ask myself, `How Did I Get here?` And I ask myself: “Where does that highway go to?”
            And I ask myself, “Am I right? Am I wrong?”
            And I ask myself, “My God! What have I done?” ~~~The Talking Heads.

          3. Mommy Pino: Full Late Disclosure: On one of HGTudor`s radio interviews, he discussed the taboo-ness in discussing female violence, etc, in society, but I do not remember the particular name and year of the interview, and so I sort of did not mention it, and I did feel a little bit guilty sounding so knowledgeable at his expense. I hope he forgives me. But , he really lays out that dynamic in one of his radio interviews. However, I know most of all of this NPD Dynamic from him anyway, so his thoughts and teaching have become mine, because I have proven them to be true. I apologize, HG. I presented your knowledge as if I thought of it myself regarding women and violence in society. And if I find that interview, in the future, I will provide the link. Thank you.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Mommie Pino: I found the video where HG Tudor discusses the Female Gender in Narcissism. When you said to me, `great point in the difference in Gender,` I learned this from HG Tudor, although I did not say so in my post, and of course, it is when you thought I made a great point., of course. I can not claim it, altough I know he is correct, when I heard him say so: It starts around 1 hour and 37 minutes if this video. The Interview is named : A Conversation with HG Tudor:.. Knowing The Narcissist. Dated January 25, 2019. Here is a link to the full interview that I learned the above gender difference info. from:

          5. MommyPino says:

            Thank you PSE. I will check that out. I also can’t wait to watch the Gaslight movie. I have always been curious about it. By the way, I’m officially an empath, a Geyser. I just found out today. So that means I don’t gaslight. 😉

          6. MommyPino says:

            Haha PSE I actually love that song Once in a Lifetime! I like to listen to rock songs like that when I drive.
            Was there any narcissists in your family? In my family they were all women. My mom (LLVN) which was my dad’s mistress, my dad’s wife (CMMRN) and my half sister from my dad (EMMRN). My dad said he was attracted to strong women. In my husband’s family, I’m still unsure if my stepdaughters are just narcissistic or NPD. I think that their mom is a VLMRN but my husband thinks that she’s just an unfortunate combination of stupidity and selfishness. I think my brother in law is a CUMRN. I think that my husband might be a Super Empath after watching Madeline. I think that I have listened to that interview of HG. Is it the one where he explained why most female narcissists are Mid-Rangers? I think that he was brilliant in that interview.

          7. MommyPino says:

            Actually PSE, rethinking it, my husband is probably not a SE as I have never seen him fight. He just always disengages or asserts boundaries. He’s not a vengeful kind of person. I just know that he’s a wonderful and amazing person for sure. 🥰

          8. WokeAF says:

            “I ’m officially an empath, a Geyser. I just found out today. So that means I don’t gaslight“
            A geyser!

          9. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF . 😘

          10. Lorelei says:

            MommyPino—I was nearly certain you were going to be a svengali upper lesser somatic cerebral. Who knew??

          11. MommyPino says:

            The Svengali thing sounds really exotic but I’m just a boring Geyser Empath.

          12. Lorelei says:

            I’m not sure what that means but I always knew you weren’t a psychopath! It’s a fun test—it was somewhat nerve wracking like maybe an HIV test would be? I was concerned I had the narcissist “bug.” It still took awhile to convince me otherwise but I’m thoroughly convinced. Now I’m trying to be 100% persuaded that HG isn’t really just screwing with all of us on his narcissism!

          13. HG Tudor says:

            That would be pointless.

          14. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            MommyPino: I watched the Gaslight movie: So much HG Tudor is teaching us is in that movie: I watched it yesterday. It is about an hour and a half long. We never knows how long a movie will stay on youtube, before being removed for one reason or the other. So, I watched it. Why is your English so good? You studied all your life?

          15. LC says:


            “By the way, I’m officially an empath, a Geyser. I just found out today. So that means I don’t gaslight. 😉”

            Hahaha why am I not surprised?
            Excellent news.
            You knew it though and I hope this helps you to be even more confident when it comes to trusting your feelings!

          16. MommyPino says:

            Haha! Thanks LC. ❤️

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          MommyPino: It may be the same interview that you are speaking of, but I am not sure. It is excellent though.

        3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          MommyPino: No Narcissists in my immediate family. I am amazed you handle all that. One has to be very patient and flexible to handle all of that. Growing up, I sometimes wished that there were more females in my family, but who knows…there is a positive and negative to all things.

          1. MommyPino says:

            You’re so lucky that you don’t have a narcissist in your immediate family.
            With the narcissists in mine, I didn’t have to handle them simultaneously. I also never met my dad’s wife. I just heard stories about her from my dad and half siblings.
            By the way I really want to see the Gaslight movie. I will make sure that I watch it this week.
            Thank you, I think that my English is ok but not really that good. I struggle with the nuances. I also have a hard time understanding jokes, sarcasm and figures of speech that I’m unfamiliar with. Although I have improved a lot since I moved here in the US. My husband is an American so English is the primary language spoken at our house. He corrects me when I make mistakes and he usually does it in a funny way. Have you seen the Demolition Man with Sandra Bullock? Her English mistakes like, “Let’s go blow this guy!” And Stallone corrects her, “ Away!! Blow this guy *away*!!” Those are the types of English mistakes I make all the time lol.

          2. Lorelei says:

            MP—you totally made me reflect back to my dad. (Just triggered a memory) He was horribly demeaning to my sister-in-law when she came speaking primarily Tagalog. What a dick. I’m so glad your husband is fun about it—my dad also used to correct my mom’s grammar at times. It’s no damn wonder all the red flags in my life were pink.

          3. MommyPino says:

            Lorelei, you just reminded me of my MR half sister. She used to correct my English all the time too but in a very condescending way. My husband in turn made fun of her fake British accent. She told him that she had what she called Mid-Atlantic accent. My husband asked her if she grew up in the Atlantic Ocean.

    2. WokeAF says:


      Yes super doesn’t mean better. What I see is they’re more intense , and more narc traits than standards
      I was a tad disappointed to find out I was not a super . LOL
      I’m not anymore.
      I have to think i I have to think Hg should have called them different to avoid confusion . Like Narcy Empaths. Nobody would be looking to be a super if that was the case . LOLOLOL
      No offence meant any supers of course I’m just messing around 😆
      I still identify with magnet – but initially MMM I could see was a super magnet. Like a magnet on steroids . That’s what made me understand what a super is . I was like ahhhhh there I am. There I am times 10 .ugh.
      And then she started saving everybody which I recognized in myself to used to do that until it became too exhausting . I forget that must mean she is a saviour so I start to wonder if I have saviour instead of magnet . But I believe it’s been established that she’s a magnet somewhere in here?

      1. MommyPino says:

        WokeAF, Oh was she a Magnet? I was guessing she was a mix of Magnet and Super as well. The Audrey Hepburn costume choice that she had was a given that she has Magnet in her. And also her youngest daughter seems to be a budding magnet as well.

        After watching this, I would actually prefer to be a Standard than a Super. I was able to relate a lot with Madeline but the degree of selfishness that she has is not something that I want to aim for. I would actually aim more to be like Jane. Jane’s connection with her son is totally solid and that is what I am aiming for with my kids. I just wish that it isn’t called Standard. It’s such an awful-sounding label to have. Can you imagine if we all meet up and have name tags with the school of empath we belong to and we have Standard right by our names? 😕

        1. WokeAF says:

          If I’m a standard
          Being a super (or at least a super who doesn’t know what they are-) -sounds utterly exhausting to me. Being AROUND said super would do my head in. That’s why since I would’ve been friends w MMM , it would be in short visits w time in between to rebalance as necessary lol

          1. MommyPino says:

            Ha! WokeAF, I just want to send a quick message to you since I’m busy making dinner right now. I just want to say that I got my Empath Detector result and I’m an HG certified empath. You don’t have to worry about me gaslighting you or anyone lol. Although I’m a tad bit disappointed that I don’t have a Magnet in my cadre. I think I disagree with him on that. Everyone in RL tells me that I’m super adorable and cute. Oh well, I guess it didn’t resonate in the questionnaire. 😉. According to him I’m a Geyser Empath. Standard with minor Super so I push back but only a wee bit. I don’t fully agree. but I agree that I’m indeed an empath. 😊

          2. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, in terms of being friends with someone like MMM, I have been close friends with someone like that in college. She was our president of our organization and I was the VP external. She was very dynamic, she was probably a mix of Geyser, Carrier and Magnet. I think she is a Super. She’s from a loving family and graduated Magna Cum Laude. I enjoyed being close friends with her. We always perked each other up and she’s one of those friends in my life that didn’t have any negative vibes. She’s just pure positivity. I miss having someone like that. We had an agreement to tell each other that we’re beautiful everyday and we did that until we graduated.
            I think the person that I wouldn’t hang out that much would be Bonnie because her drained expressions might suck the energy out of me.

    3. LC says:

      Yeah, I also got Perry wrong, I thought lesser first (violence), then settled for greater (awareness). But judging the way in which he presented intellectually I thought midranger and there was the “I can change” and “you must help me” scene shortly before he dies that smacked of midranger. Perry was the hardest nut for me.

      1. MommyPino says:

        “Perry was the hardest nut for me.”

        Yes LC and I mistakenly thought that he was the easiest! 😊

    4. E. B. says:

      I was very surprised about Perry too, unless he behaved physically aggressive in Season 2?

      Re: “I didn’t think that Mid-Rangers can be violent.”

      The LMRN shows heated fury. From The Fuel Matrix – Part II (Mid-Range): “… when there is an ignition of fury, the relevant victim may well experience the manifestation of physical violence. There is not the blunt fury of the Lesser, but the risk of being punched or kicked is there. The LMRN, when heated fury is ignited, will respond at times by throttling the victim.”

      However, I did not know that an UMRN could be violent since I have met some of them IRL and none of them is physically aggressive.
      BLL is fiction after all.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        All narcissists can be physically violent. There are more factors which underpin him being UMR and the violence sits within that. If he did not operate a facade, if he was not successful, if he didn’t act as an apparent good father he would be Lower Lesser or middle Lesser. You have to see the factors which qualify the individual to be a narcissist and then one assesses which traits are there and are not within the narcissism and the relevant weight of each trait and factor to ascertain the school. This depth and experience of understanding is why I’m the expert and you should not feel bad for not always getting it correct, why would you, you’re not me.

        1. Caroline R says:

          Exactly so!
          Thank you for your supportive comments with regards to our efforts.
          Perry behaving as involved father behind closed doors does put him in the Mid-range and not the Lesser catagory.

          I would have liked to have you as my English Literature teacher. The discussions would have been even more intellectually satisfying as more dimensions and layers were considered.

          What insights you would have brought to Balzac’s ‘Madame Bovary’, and Austen’s ‘Pride and Prejudice’.

        2. E. B. says:

          Thank you very much for this new piece of information. I mainly used your three Fuel Matrix articles to determine school and its divisions. I had wrongly understood that only those of the Lesser school and (lower) divisions exhibited physical aggression. I had wrongly understood that MMRN and UMRN were not violent at all. I do not feel bad for not getting it right because I am aware that I still have a lot to learn from you.

          It was fun to do this exercise with this TV show and I would love to have more training to determine school, subdivisions and cadre in the future. It is educational and extremely helpful and I enjoyed doing it very much.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You’re welcome

        3. WokeAF says:

          Indeeed as I’ve just realized my LMR narcoholic is actually either a LL , or a ML who appears as a LL due to drink.

          I used to use the fuel matrix but now this is what I look for
          -control over fury
          -heated fury or cold fury or both
          -success or lack thereof
          -facade ? How much and how well maintained
          -Use Of “Poor Me” and amount
          If I knew any greaters I would look for cunning and calculation .

          And then factor in the fuel matrix and put it all together .
          Anything to add in ,HG?.

      2. MommyPino says:

        I agree EB. I know a family member whom I think is an UMRN and he is not violent whatsoever but he likes to pick on everybody in a sarcastic joking way and he likes to intimidate as well. Although when he was in high school a bully who had beaten up his younger brother in front of a lot of students probably ignited his fury so he plotted and days after the incident he was able to avenge his younger brother by beating the bully up. So I guess he does have a violent streak. I just haven’t seen it. I don’t believe that he has ever hurt his wife. But he’s very much into mind games.

      3. MB says:

        When I think of mid ranger violence, I think of the article with the cake. (What Goes on Below) I think?

        And also spitting. I imagine a mid ranger spitting in a victim’s face. 😡

  17. Chihuahuamum says:

    Oops just realised i read the results wrong and nathan is a narcissist but a lesser. I guess i can see that.
    Perry i feel is a psychopath. I do think he has an element of sadism and he reminds me of chris watts. A ticking time bomb. I think his mother was a key factor in who he evolved into the same as chris watts.
    Madeline it was obvious is a codependant but there are many madelines out there that would say no im independant im a successful lawyer etc…you can be independant in many aspects of life and still be codependant. I firmly believe narcissists are codependant at the core of who they are and anyone who stays with them in a dysfunctional relationship or keeps coming back.
    I think out of all the narcissists perry was the most dangerous.

  18. MommyPino says:

    Wow, I only got Celeste, Perry and Madeline right. I think Ed was the biggest shocker for me as he didn’t seem malicious enough to be a narcissist. But now it makes sense. I am also surprised with Renata and Gordon. I thought that Renata is the Narcissist and Gordon the Co-D because of the way she treats him. It seemed that Renata was the dominant one in their relationship.
    HG, why would a narc stay in a dynamic where the non-narc is more dominant over him and talks down to him?

    1. MommyPino says:

      Actually now that the pictures fully loaded, I didn’t get Perry right. And I got Ed right!! He’s a Normal!! It’s hard when internet is slow.

    2. HG Tudor says:

      1. He is still receiving fuel.
      2. There are still character traits.
      3. There are considerable residual benefits.

      What do you think Gordon´s man cave with his trains etc was? A bolthole and a place where he would go to give Renata a silent treatment to exert control over her. It was his most prized possession but not for the reasons he believed, hence why he preserved it above everything else.

      1. MommyPino says:

        Thank you HG. The bolthole makes a lot of sense. I’m adding that now as a red flag. I remember both my dad and half siblings told me in separate occasions about his wife staying locked in her sewing room making quilts all day and not interacting with them and all of them felt really lonely whenever she would do that.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re welcome

      2. Caroline R says:

        When you lay it out this way, I can see it. I can see how the relationship of Renata and Gordon coheres and lasts.
        Thank you for explaining.

        My Narcissistic brother was targeted by two mid-rangers when he was in his 20s. He is not volatile like Renata. He’s steely, decisive, and somewhat moody and driven.
        His mid-ranger #1 got bored and dumped him but she had no personality —- the shallow fake one wasn’t even interesting. She was a dancer and physically attractive, but wooden. Robotic and soulless. Her pretty face was her only asset. There was nothing between the ears to generate an interesting conversation.

        His mid-ranger #2 was a smothering, outgoing, emasculating one that he finally ended things with, and cut his losses. All of his expensive cologne went in the bin, never to be used again. It became everpresence, and he was ruthless at ridding himself of it.
        Her smugness when she was with him was off the charts, her PDAs were all for show. It was all about facade and… well all her prime aims were well met. She was intelligent and educated, and love-bombed him like crazy, using every trick in the book. She was nauseating.

        Then he dated a few normal women. He detoxed from Ns.

        His wife now is an Empath, an introverted ‘Negotiator’ personality type. They are a great pairing, have great chemistry, and she made him happy like no one else before. He knew that he’d marry her about 2 months after their first date. He’s quite moody and has a short fuse at times, and they argue, but there are heartfelt apologies, and his manipulations are mild and negotiations can happen for the mutual benefit of them both. It’s a win-win situation.

        With regard to two Ns together like Bill and Hillary Clinton, they have their prime aims met, so they make it work. I imagine that the fuel provision would be less, but maybe not.

        For Renata as a normal being with Gordon the mid-ranger, she would have a trauma bond with him, and so would stay. I can see how he would have no cause to go elsewhere for his prime aims, except for the purposes of devaluing her for negative fuel. Not that he’d consciously decide on this course of action.

        Thank you again for your insights.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

          1. Caroline R says:

            I just remembered something else about my brother around that time that he was ensnared my his Ns.

            He was also ensnared by #3, a married-N, under the guise of her being his “counsellor” against our evil mother.
            Counsellor? Yeah, right.
            She appointed herself to that role, and triangulated my mum and brother constantly. My N-Mother was constantly infuriated by it, as you can imagine.

            The married N had been kicked out of the Prison Visiting Mission Team for inappropriate personal interactions with the prisoners. She gave them all her contact details, and flirted with them all; both verboten. Talk about sitting targets! Her fuel matrix extended over Australia, New Zealand and then Malaysia with her husband’s work.

            My brother was working through issues with our N-Mother, detoxing from her damaging influence so he was vulnerable to married-N’s nebulous mother/girlfriend manipulations, and married-N was very calculating.
            She seemed to be coated with the same Teflon as Boris, and walked away from all the drama with facade undented. Her hypnotizing cleavage may have played a large part in that…..
            She was an attractive woman, and charmed men and women alike. She had great control over her facade and fury; she was at least an upper mid-range N. She’d giggle like a teenager to deflect blame. It was a good smokescreen.

            Anyway, the thing that I remembered from that time was that he’d tell me regularly when we’d have a difference of opinion that I was “bossy”.
            I was always affronted by it, but he may have had grounds for saying it. I just insisted on things being done to a high standard. I didn’t consider that “bossy”.
            Ok, it’s a bit bossy.
            At the time, and in view of who he was dating, it seemed like the pot calling the kettle black.

            Oh! Maybe married-N put it into his head that I was bossy because I said that her behaviour with my brother was inappropriate.

            It seems likely now!

            I remember that shortly after we’d met and were ‘friends’ she told me I was like a caged lion pacing up and down within my cage. That was true. I was smothered by N-Mother and N-sister’s abuse. She encouraged me to get away from my family.
            She was the first person to give me that perspective. I liked her for that at the time. Of course I didn’t see her ulterior motives.

            Married-N died of ovarian cancer quite quickly prior to my brother’s wedding. She would certainly have damaged his marriage if she’d lived, as she had no boundary recogntion.
            She gave him one of her large diamonds for the engagement ring.
            Uh, no.
            A necessary end to the N-covenant.

  19. Chihuahuamum says:

    Woahhhh im surprised by the normals!! I thought for sure nathan was a midranger! I have to keep reminding myself that people can have narc traits and even use narc tools but maybe not have npd. Lack of empathy is the determining factor. Not just lack but inability to feel empathy. I find it hard to differentiate cognitive empathy bc even some narcissists believe their cognitive empathy is real.

  20. Jess says:

    I thought Mary Louise was as evil and as calculated as you can get. And kudos to Meryl Streep, as she did an outtanding job in portaying this, right down to mannerisms and micro facial expressions.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      She is an exceptional actress.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Is she one of yours?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Is who one of ours?

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            You know who I meant but I’ll play anyway. Meryl.

            I don’t know anything about her so I have no view.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I did not know who you meant. As I have explained repeatedly I do not see the previous comments in my moderation pane and therefore I will need you to be specific in your comment. I have not placed Meryl Streep under the Tudorscope.

          3. WhoCares says:

            “I have not placed Meryl Streep under the Tudorscope.”

            Will you do so?
            I love watching her in movies. She is one of those actors who can both play really eccentric characters (but not be type cast as such, like, say Johnny Depp) but still has the capacity to to take on real characters with such believability. She is good.

            (Incidentally, my narc had a huge crush on her.)

          4. HG Tudor says:

            She has been added to the list.

          5. WhoCares says:


      2. LC says:

        Totally agree…I’m wondering now if my gran was a greater. It was chilling to see the similarities.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I don’t know much about the Contagion, but I have wondered if Meryl Streep might be one and that is what allows her to fully immerse and become the people in the roles she chooses. Or she just does intensive research and possesses exceptional skill to read people. Either way – It is a pleasure to watch her at her craft.

          1. MB says:

            I knew those weren’t her real teeth! I told my husband there was something funny about them.

          2. WhoCares says:

            NA – Contagion? That’s interesting. It never occurred to me that that particular strand of empathy might help one with acting.
            I also enjoy her work; as I mentioned in an earlier comment to HG.
            I wonder if Twilight would chime in…?

          3. Twilight says:

            Hello Who Cares

            Yes a Contagion could.
            I was disappointed with “Bonnie” and how a Contagion would be portrayed. I understood thou what traits put her in this school, I would never classify her as a Contagion based on acting.

            One would notice subtle differences in their acting, A Contagion could move more fluidly with out the micro expressions when switching the emotional “feeling” within their acting where a narcissist still would have them. This would be more noticeable with the lower schools, the Greater it still can be noticed yet their awareness gives them an edge and one would have to be paying attention to even catch it, we are talking seconds it is not easy to pick up. Due to it would be under the “guise” of acting people would just write it off if they did see this “clue” to what they really are.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Twilight – thank-you, I commented back but it fell at the top of the thread.

    2. Jess. I made a mistake in that she was great, but I thought she was not a greater N. because one could see her coming and I thought greaters hid their cunning better. But, the mistake I made was that she is a greater of the middle variety. She is a greater middle. Not the Top type of greater, like HG and company. I like it. I just made a rookie mistake. Fixable.

  21. MB says:

    HG, can you expand on Nathan just a bit? I found him to be mostly normal. That was really the only one the Tudorscope surprised me on.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He always sought to control those around him, Madeline, Ed, Bonnie but was rudimentary about it. Witness his repeated baiting of Ed ( which largely failed because Ed is normal) , the fighting at the party, his run ins with Madeline ( rudimentary exchanges and failed as she is a SE). Largely aggressive in manner with no polish. Didn’t know hot to react when Bonnie challenged him when she said she didn’t love him.

      1. MB says:

        Thank you HG. It makes more sense now. IRL if the wife asserted that she didn’t love the Narc, that would most likely ignite fury, yes? Again, this is entertainment and heaven forbid they portray him busting up the hospital room!

      2. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi HG …will you be doing write ups on each? Thx

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. MB says:

            “Ain’t nobody got time for that!”

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha MB, I say that line a lot.

          3. MB says:

            Me too SP. when he said he wouldn’t be expanding on each character, Sweet Brown just popped right in my head!

      3. HG: I despised Nathan. If all Narcs were like him, I would have no worries going forward. Too bad.

      4. MB says:

        What are you and The SM viewing from your thrones now, HG?

        I would like to have been a fly on the wall during your discussions of BLL.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We have not been watching television recently MB, we have been doing a lot outdoors.

          1. MB says:

            Yes! I’ve seen your outdoors pictures on IG, HG. Beautiful. Enjoy it before it gets too cold.

      5. WokeAF says:

        Yes! The fact that he didn’t blow up when Bonnie dumped him was interesting for me . I saw him repeatedly lose control and belie his fury like when he was saying he does things he doesn’t want to for his women . But he was just so shocked when she dumped him. This is exactly like my kids dad
        Plus my kids dad is a victim I think. Was Nathan a victim?

      6. WokeAF says:

        Hg. great question for you
        Nathan ultimately told MMM that he is rooting for her. He displayed what looked to me to be Genuine caring and actually looked somewhat fond of her in that moment

        My victim ML baby daddy has, and does -say things like that to me. It’s very confusing can you explain what’s going on please

        1. WokeAF says:

          Would it be accurate enough to say, that the ML is in fact “rooting” for someone, in his own way …as long as it doesn’t interfere with the prime aims or challenge his narcissism ?

          1. HG Tudor says:


        2. HG Tudor says:

          He is a narcissist therefore he has no emotional empathy and therefore does not root for anybody other than himself. He was only saying this in order to provoke a response from MMM.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Shit just saw this reply OK thank you !!

          2. WokeAF says:

            To get her onside?

          3. WokeAF says:

            OK so fuel seeking OK got it

            Omg 🙄🙄I can’t believe I fell for that shit with my kids dad for so many years oh my God *groan*

        3. WokeAF says:

          So Nathan was lying? When you said he was rooting for MMM? Did he know he was lying?

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. WokeAF says:

            No what ?

          3. HG Tudor says:


          4. Lorelei says:

            You are a mess.

          5. WokeAF says:

            I do like the way you work it

          6. Alexissmith2016 says:

            No, he didn’t know he was lying Woke.

          7. WokeAF says:

            Alexis (&HG)

            “No, he didn’t know he was lying Woke.”

            So what did he think , that he IS rooting for her?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            His narcissism causes him to think that he is rooting for her, but because he is a narcissist he is not. He is just saying that (though he does not realise this) in order to provoke her in a particular way to exert control and gain fuel.

      7. MB says:

        Thank you for expanding on Nathan HG. I’m reading through comments and realized I didn’t thank you. Rude girl! Never too late I suppose.

  22. nunya biz says:

    Wow, I understood most of them and was close, a few wrong things…
    Renata I had as narcissist, but now it makes sense in terms of how she mended some fences even though she was highly insensitive, I know someone who has some traits in common with her and she gets along with people better after making some adjustments and I started to like her. Good to know and understand.
    Wrong on Ed. I’m not surprised, he irritated me a lot, but with the character writing I just wasn’t sure. In the end the idea to renew vows was very positive and good-hearted and honest. I would find that moving and very hopeful.
    (I didn’t like the wrap up in the last episode overall though)
    I voted correct on Madeline, but it was a tough call. I would find her overbearing.
    Also I was off on ML because I had her as MMR but very obvious N, no doubt. Interesting she is a greater. I think my MIL has similarities and does things intentionally, but is slightly less Machiavellian and aware as HG has identified. Still she’s a really fucked up piece of work. Now I wonder about her. Buuut…..I also know she doesn’t have any fuel matrix to speak of outside of family and is a recluse, so I’d still guess MMR.
    I have consultations I’m curious about in the coming months though probably not her.

    This makes a lot of sense. Thank you HG.

    1. nunya biz says:

      Oh and I thought Perry a lesser.

    2. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome.

  23. EmpatheticEmperess says:

    Love your work ‼️Would’ve been more helpful if you included examples of the characteristics of each.

  24. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Yayyyy go Madeline!!!!

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      And I knew about Perry!!!! Motherfucker…

      1. Lorelei says:

        I can’t reply under your emoji comment. I use them occasionally and it irritates a certain audience but I don’t care. If it is moronic then so be it.

  25. WhoCares says:

    Middle Lesser narc – Nathan

    Upper Mid-ranger narc – Perry

    This is an area where I get confused…such a significant gap between the two but little to no evidence of violence from Nathan. Does Perry rate upper Mid-ranger because of his work stability and other qualities? I wonder because he doesn’t seem to be able to contain his heated fury much. And I thought having a short fuse was typical of a Lesser?

    1. WokeAF says:

      Is it because: Nathan cannot contain his fury, but he doesn’t have the violent tendencies?

      Whereas Perry HAS the violent tendencies AND contains and controls his fury enough to be able to direct it at the victim (Celeste, Jane) at the time he chooses when he pleases?

  26. K says:

    back to class for me!

    1. nunya biz says:

      I feel like I should have spotted Nathan. I actually don’t think I voted on him though. But he was in “focus and pursue” mode most of the time.

  27. Whitney says:

    HG I love the reality tv show Vanderpump rules. It’s full of Narcs and super empaths. Maybe you could do a reality tv show (real life people)

    1. WokeAF says:

      I vote for 90 Day Fiancé
      Narcville .

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Please, no. Do we really have to stoop to 90 Day Fiancé and Vanderpump and have brain cells die off in order to learn?

        1. WokeAF says:

          It’s fun for me. Sometimes it’s good to watch something brainless anyhow , and I’ve taken to a few reality shows just this month in order to watch the narcissistic traits in actual people that are not acting ( or not acting all of the time )

  28. jessrnny says:

    I’m confused about Mary Louise. I thought a Greater would have a more extensive fuel matrix and be able to move on more quickly from her husband’s departure. But I read the comments below and it makes more sense. She was able to size people up quickly and offend them enough to maintain a plausible defense for herself.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Remember you do not get to see her Fuel Matrix because that is not something the programme writers have any regard to so you cannot use that as a guiding criteria, you have to work with what is shown and what that best fits. Here it is the rampant calculation which secures her place as a Greater, she is aware and Machiavellian.

      1. jessrnny says:

        I enjoyed this. Well done.

      2. WokeAF says:

        I’ve Been using your fuel matrix videos to help me understand the different schools. I’d love more videos explaining the methodology of the different schools that we can witness outside of the fuel matrix

      3. E. B. says:

        ML is like the woman who tortured a loved one to punish me two years ago and also like the one who has been targeting me with malignant hoovers for years, although I never had a relationship with any of them.
        They are cunning, scheming and vindictive and will not stop. They are not silly MRNs who do not know what they are doing. They use Zersetzung. I could remove myself from one of them but not from the other one next door.

      4. Twisted Heart says:

        Would you say ML would have been a greater her entire life? I wonder if Raymond’s accident would have caused her to become more narcissistic and therefore more calculating. I guess I have respect for greaters in a way because of their ability to stay in control, but the child abuse and blame shifting on Perry as a child seemed characteristic of a lesser school. I guess when something devastating like that happens to a narcissist they lose all sense of control no matter what level of awareness they have. What say you?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          She has always been a greater. All narcissists abuse.

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Thank You HG

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You’re welcome

        2. WokeAF says:

          HG I had mistakenly pictured all Greaters as being very high up success-wise. ML , we don’t know her fuel matrix nor her academic or occupation history. That she is a MIDDLE GREATER confused me as I had Michael Jackson and the like pegged for that school.
          In females of older generations, (who perhaps didn’t work in lieu of motherhood etc) , and in today’s society, how are we to spot greaters as they’d have the facade down pat, if not by fuel matrix or occupation?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You consult with me.

      5. Dearest HG: Your explanation is so clear as follows: [ Here it is the rampant calculation which secures her place as a Greater, she is aware and Machiavellian.] So, she is a Greater, but in the Middle School. HG, what keeps her out of the Greater School?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          She is in the Greater school

          1. Deaest HG: Yes. Of course. I made a mistake and read her assessment as Greater Mid`Ranger` instead of Middle Greater. My bad. But, I am glad I asked, so I will remember that I sometimes mix up the school and cadres when the word Middle is part of the assessment. I see middle and I automatically see MidRanger. Something like that. Also, what some see as the intense and focused study that a Greater Narcissist is capable of, when the Greater hones in on a source or sources for whatever reason like Mary L., including her grandchildren, her daughter in law, and their friends, as contagion or compassion for them, when it is not. it is knowing- the- enemy strategy. I would say that Narcissists would be repulsed to no end to feel Contagion, if it were even possible. Even as an empath, I abhor the feeling of contagion.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No such thing as Greater Mid Ranger

  29. Kel says:

    Can you explain why or what makes those characters narc or empath? particularly on Mary Louise: If she’s a greater, why is her image one that isn’t charming, that everyone dislikes, and her appearance is as unattractive instead of grandiose?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      But she was liked until she commenced the custody battle. She was grandiose – her custody application, her comments about some of the women. Grandiosity though is but one factor, the overriding consideration with MLW is that she knows what she is and knows what she is doing. She is highly calculating and is a chameleon, she played the role of supportive grandparent but only did so in order to find out what had happened to her son and when it became clear to her that it was not an accident she sought to punish the offenders as she believed Celeste had brought about his demise. The custody application was a calculated action to punish Celeste under the veneer of ´doing the right thing´ for the children. She knows exactly what she was doing.

      1. Kel says:

        Hmmm, I know you’re an expert at observing people and I respect that, but I’m seeing it from a different viewpoint. I only started watching at season 2, episode 4, but it was before the custody battle, and everyone hated Mary Louise already. She had moved into the same building as Jane, and it was the episode where Celeste slapped her. ML kept showing up at peoples doors with desperate pleas, which seems more empath, making a fool out of ourselves to make a point but to no avail. And during the trial she went to Celeste’s door and asked her emotionally why she was lying, which was just between them that no one else witnessed. Streep is beautiful, but ML seems to go out of her way to look unfashionable, she doesn’t seem to tout herself as superior. And empaths are sleuths, it’s one of our sins, and ML lost the court case, which I have noticed is unlikely for a greater to do. I saw her as taking on the responsibility of looking out for the welfare of the grandkids, not as punishment. Celeste loved her son, mourns for him, and didn’t kill him. The kids weren’t in a safe environment with strangers roaming around who Celeste had gotten drunk with and bedded, or that Janes son rode in the front seat with her instead of being properly seated per laws in the backseat.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Remember she lost the court case for the purposes of viewing (viewers like a happy ending) not because it was an accurate portrayal. If the writers had accurately portrayed a Greater she would have won the court case. As I explained, with certain characters it is best fit, not total fit and once again the observations that LC made are applicable.
          She was turning up at the doors to provoke, it was not desperation. She knew what she was doing. Remember her quest was to ascertain what had happened to her son, it was nothing to do with protecting her grandchildren – she believed that Perry´s death was not an accident and she identified that there was a cabal operating. Her approaching each of the women was her looking for the weakest link and she adopted various guises to try to flush out that weakest link, it was all calculated. She absolutely regards herself as superior. In fairness, your own empathic traits are obscuring your judgement for instance ” I saw her as taking on the responsibility of looking out for the welfare of the grandkids, not as punishment.” She is a narcissist, therefore her grandchildren do not matter, they are pawns. She used the apparent caring for them as a device to punish Celeste. If she genuinely cared and took on the responsibility because of that, she would not be a narcissist.

          1. Kel says:

            Ok, I understand. I thought she was an empath, a doormat. She must then see the loss of her son as a wrong against her as he being an extension of herself.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Correct. Thank you for clarifying your standpoint, I understand why you took issue because you saw her as an empath, but she is not.

          3. jessrnny says:

            Great explanations. Thank you. I should have known she was a Greater when Madeline was yelling at her on the street. They can really offend.

            The fuel Matrix videos of each school will really help in identifying the different types of narcissist. They are so spot on it’s haunting. I listen to them when I miss the Narcs. As a reminder.

          4. Dearest HG: I felt she lost that court case as well, but Celeste`s legal council seemed so inept to me that I did not know how to judge it all. There was no fight in her legal council. Bad writing? The writers underestimated, us, the audience? We have been steeped in court scenes for decades now in television. That first court scene was cringeworthy to me. In fact, it was only when she represented herself, there was some fight on her own behalf. The fact that her son taped the violence was actually a strike against her well, because it showed that she did not know what her children were being subjected to. But, the random men, and the drugs, and the car accident, and the acceptance of abuse, and even enjoyment of some of it, and her lying to her therapist, and her confused behavior on the stand, all did not look good to the judge. I do not know how much the writing played a part, or how much the psychology that you said LC pointed out in the making of the conflict, actually worked against my natural reaction, but as a reasonable person, I agree with you that Streep would have won custody, and Celeste would have lost, if a happily-ever-after mechanism was not thrown in by the Producers of the show.

          5. LC says:

            Brilliant. Thank you.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Is there to be a season 3? If so, Celeste may have won the case but could she lose the fight due to her involvement in the cover up of her husbands death?

          1. LC says:

            If this is anything like Broadchurch there will be a third season, not least because the case isn’t solved. Bonnie wrote a confession into her diary that someone will probably find, probably her own daughter. That’s my best guess because it’s very odd that there has been no serious conflict between the two…. So, yes definitely, Celeste can lose the boys (and get them back because she’s Nicole Kidman and we need the most beautiful women to be part of the happy end). Anything is possible if the scriptwriters want it to happen. Realistically in can go either way would be my guess.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            I noted the diary also. I was thinking: why would you do something that stupid? Then as quickly I thought: because it’s not real life and designed to lead the viewer.

          3. strongerwendyme says:

            Its uncertain. Potential narc activity behind the scenes.

          4. E. B. says:

            Nicole Kidman said during an interview on YT that they would love to do a Season 3 but they will do it as long as the whole cast, including the children, have time for it.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Thank you E.B. I guess we’ll hear in time.

      2. WokeAF says:

        So what differentiates her from a lower greater ?

        1. WokeAF says:

          Is it the level of calculation?

        2. HG Tudor says:

          The methodology of facade.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Like your friend Boris?

      3. Gosh I am really starting to see my sister as a potential Greater. She is different to Mary Louise in that she remains likable to most people. But I’m not so sure if she is a one trick pony anymore. I never used to see through her manipulations at all. Now I have knowledge it is much easier to see through. So perhaps its just my insight. I don’t know. I know what I have to do though to find out.

      4. LC says:

        Hahaha I can’t believe I missed the results coming in!! I was at some work do these past few days and my daughter is there, so I only updated the “other” thread occasionally to see what was happening there!

        And what’s also incredibly funny is that I got Mary Louise wrong because I thought as a greater she would have won the court case given that Celeste presented as a volatile mother, and ML would have managed to lie and deflect the accusations about Perry’s tragic childhood (this is why I settled for midranger) – and then it turns out that her winning the court case was actually due to the happy ending the story required ! So funny, but I’m totally convinced she’s a greater now. It all clicks into place.

        I’m not so sure about Renata being “only” narcissistic and not a narcissist – what’s the criterion for the dividing line resp where do we find it in the story, HG? I almost also thought “only” narcissistic but this was based on a mere feeling, and the way she is with her daughter seemed so matrinarcal – I’m thinking about the situation when Amabella really needs help because of her anxiety attack. Renata organises some – of course she is expected to and the facade requires it too – and when the psychologist gives the reason for A’s anxiety which incudes Renata, all Renata can do is blame those who are not her. There is zero introspection on her part. But I did love Renata as a character in the show, I thought she was priceless!

        1. Caroline R says:

          Good points.
          It’s interesting what you’ve written about Renata. I find that she’s like my N-Mother.

          If she’s only highly Narcissistic, her marriage to Gordon doesn’t make sense. They’d never go out in the first place.
          A volatile Lesser-N married to a passive-aggressive mid-ranger makes more sense. It would be all about wrestling for control and feeding off each other’s drama. Disconnected partners in crime.
          My mother and sister had this type of dynamic.

          I left you a long comment on the previous ‘BLL: the results’ post, so I don’t know if you’ll see it there or not. I don’t want to repeat myself here.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes they would, remember where she came from.

          2. LC says:

            Thank you Caroline R – I’ve read it, and I’ll answer it for you there, I was going to have a blog break but can’t help myself because I love the BLL puzzle (and am an KTN addict).

            I checked out the Renata Thread now for some insight about Renata’s empathic side and found a comment by E. B. which I found interesting because it’s an argument that Renata does care for Amabella (BTW what’s in a name!! “I’m a Belle” and I have a special M).

            Here goes M. B. :

            “Renata does care about her daughter Amabella. She did not invite Ziggy to Amabella’s birthday party because she believed what her daughter had told her about Ziggy (He had choked her.) She was protecting her daughter from him.”

            I could agree with that, if R is indeed capable of empathy. What happens if we view Amabella as an applience though. In that case Renata didn’t want her appliance to get broken.

            M. B. further :

            “When she realized that not inviting Ziggy was a mistake because her daughter wanted to see Chloe on her birthday, she called Madeline to deal with this conflict in a constructive way.”

            Was this call really constructive though or did it only appear so? It could be viewed as facade in operation, too. She raged like mad when she didn’t get her way. And that Chloe wasnt going to be there could be seen as a massive criticism. Renata’s concern was to make the party “perfect” the way she saw it. There is no scene in which she asks Amabella how she would like to celebrate her birthday. Amabella is a pawn in Renata’s dream of an ideal childhood for her daughter – the dream is what it is, an illusion, not real. Renata wants perfection but in trying to achieve it she completely ignores the emotional needs of her child.

            It’s interesting the way this is portrayed in terms of body language. Renata asks Amabella to point at a child (in the companion scene when the real culprit is found Jane asks Ziggy to point at a photograph). Renata squats down and becomes one of the children, sharing her daughter’s perspective (self – projection). Jane in the companion scene first looks into Ziggy’s eyes (trust is established). Then she takes him onto her lap (warmth security, holding environment). Renata has an audience, while she labels her daughter as a victim. Jane does nothing of the kind but empowers Ziggy all in private. Ziggy is relieved, vs. Amabella in his distress. Total lack of empathy on Renata’s part, and on Jane’s textbook empathic and child oriented problem solving.

            These are companion scenes with a black and white contrast, as in WRONG and damaging (Renata) vs. RIGHT and healing (Jane).

            I do believe that Renata thinks herself to be empathic but her actions show that she is not. And so we know that a she is really not caring (the teacher actually tries to stop Renata but she doesn’t listen), we get the contrast scene with Jane who gets it right. Jane is also shown as listening to the teacher and accepting her perspective while there is not a single scene in which Renata cooperates with a teacher. She knows best (grandiodity, entitlement).


            “Renata also told her daughter she should never allow other people to bully her, to speak up and that she had to learn to do that herself. A narcissist mother does not care about what happens to her daughter (“It is your fault, deal with it”.)”

            This I find intriguing – but I think we could also look at it as self projection; ” I had to learn that myself ” … It’s words words words, and words alone, because Renata does actually nothing to help her child speak up. Her kid is unable to do it. Later in the series she will suffer from an anxiety attack. Ziggy can speak up. He does in the right environment.


            “Although Renata is intelligent, highly-successful and well-off, her assets were commingled. Also, she seemed to be unaware about her husband’s illegal deals. If Renata were an UMRN or a GN, she would have protected her assets and would have learnt about Gordon’s activities and prevented him from involving her in financial fraud.”

            I would agree with this if Renata were a greater. But a midranger can be deluded about another narcissist, I’m sure. A midranger can probably also assume that commingling (great word!) might be to her advantage? This is something I can’t interpret very well though because I’m hopeless with money…

            M. B.

            “She did not know about Gordon and their nanny either. She was totally unaware of Gordon’s dark side when she married him. “

            I’m wondering if a midranger can be deluded about her partner as she can be about her child. I do think it’s possible that two narcissists marry and see their relationship explode when the fantasy collapses in on itself?

            If my reading makes as much sense as M. B. S then the reading of her character depends on the question of whether we believe her empathy to be real or fake.

            One of HGs teachings is that fake empathy is hard to detect, and one way to work it out is to see if words and actions match. And I tried this approach with Renata and found they don’t.

            I’m curious what you think HG – are there indicators that Renata honestly cares rather than being delusional about her ability to care?

          3. LC says:

            Caroline (love your avatar!),

            I copied a snippet from your comment in the “other thread” in here:

            “If you have the time to give us more of your professional opinion about these BLL characters, we’d love to read it. I’m sure that you’re busy IRL.”

            Thank you so much for your kind words! All the same I don’t really feel I can claim any special insight on the characters – the specialist on narcissism is HG!

            I will mull over your questions as regards Madeline a bit though (I think I may have some answers) and I wanted to think a bit more about the ways in which the conflicts are orchestrated and what this means for the way our own narc awareness unfolds or is clouded while we watch the show. Personally I’m most interested in the ways in which narcissism affects our children (especially also our own narcissism pre- and post-disengagement) and what can be done about it, which is why I am so happy we’re discussing a series like BLL.

            I’m rubbish when it comes to cutting down on blog activity which I need to do though atm, but I will and want to respond- just give me a couple of days to get back to you.

            All best,

          4. LC says:

            E. B. and M. B.

            I’m sorry I confused your initials! When I wrote “Here goes M. B.” it should have been E. B.

            My initials stand for “Less Confused” by the way, I think there is room for improvement until it becomes NCAL, not confused any longer 🙂

        2. Caroline R says:

          Not wanting to sound like a maths teacher, but
          “Show me your working for how you got that answer”

          Are you able to give us some detective profiling on each character please?
          It doesn’t have to be long. Just the definitive points.
          You gave us Perry and Mary Louise clearly, thanks for those. That was a great help.

  30. alexissmith2016 says:

    Thank you – I really enjoyed this and I have learned alot

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  31. alexissmith2016 says:

    Oooooh interesting!

    And so Perry was an UMR – so they can be sexually violent too? interesting!

    Pretty much able to determine whether they are N or E

    I have to consider now where I went wrong

    Nathan, I said high N traits but not an N. In the early scenes he did show alot of signs of being an N. but then less so as it progressed.

    Perry. I went with UL or LG due to the sexual violence

    Renata, I said UL I think so not too far off I guess.

    Celeste was a bit of a suprise to me? I recognised she was an empath but I don’t understand CDs enough. I now understand a little more about CD traits, I think it was the way she pulled herself together in court that made me think she was an SE.

    MMM – my biggest shock and lots I didn’t like about her to be honest. but she did end the affair. I thought it was pretty harsh how she used the children in her manipulations.

    Mary Louise – yup got that one

    Gordon – got that too

    bonnie – correct

    Ed – got that right (well I think I went with normal/empathic traits)

    Where is Jane?

    What cadre of SE would MMM be?

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      ooh found Jane – yay got that one right too.

      soooo 7/10 correct on whether N/E or Normal. I didn’t guess the school of all but those I did, only Perry was wrong.

      I assume then that UMR can be sexually aggressive

      1. WokeAF says:

        Where is Jane?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Right there

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Probably with Dick again.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Having fun.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Much more fun than those Lessers Jack and Jill. They just fall and roll down hills never accomplishing their goal.

          3. Kel says:

            NA, you have such a fast and great sense of humor! You would be a great sitcom writer or comedian!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Thank you, but at this stage in my life I’ll just have to settle for funny looking.

          5. Kel says:

            NA, I remember what you look like in real life from that day we all posted our real pictures- until HG got after us- and you are pretty, not funny looking (and not intimidating looking either like your cat woman face, Lol!).

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Wait! When did that happen??? How risqué! Lol

          7. MB says:

            That was a fun day!

          8. Lorelei says:

            We can do it again. Make him get on us again. I really don’t care.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            We only posted our photos very briefly. Most people put a face to the words they read or the voices we hear and several of us had been conversing for quite some time. Of course as empaths we wanted to ‘see’ who we were speaking to and see if the pictures matched to what we had in our heads. I don’t remember HG being angry, just cautioning us that it was not a good idea and could have consequences that we may not have thought of. Most of us don’t use our real names for that very reason, and we are not permitted to exchange information to meet in real life. It is for the protection of both us and the blog, and sound counsel.

            Of course we maintain that he was just annoyed that he couldn’t show his face.

            I know! I know! I was only kidding. I’m already half way to the stool ffs!

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Off you go Naughty NA!

          11. Lorelei says:

            Yes, logical indeed but what amuses me is that there had to be an instigator Tudorite for the photos! When I posted the celebratory photo of my nuptials demise it was a side view for your mentioned reasons. I have some control with regard to my own fraternization but I don’t know who would see my face on here “randomly”—elsewhere I have the choice because my social media is private for instance. (It’s private primarily due to the divorce and stalking behavior of my ex’s lady and her equally low hanging fruit friends and due to patients looking me up)
            “Lorelei” is inspired by an old friends golden retriever! She was a very good dog! At the end of the day—being here in this imaginary land and having it be known to those closest to me isn’t a concern per se but if I knew my brother (for example) was lurking I’d have less capacity to be unfiltered. No one in my life knows of a Lorelei even though my one brother and mom know of HG’s work. I’ll keep the name this time. I rather like it. Maybe I’ll just be ever so slightly provocative and do occasional side views! I can’t be entirely laden with sensibilities. I always did push the dress code in private school after all.

          12. MB says:

            It WAS nice putting faces with names. I enjoyed it although it was brief. We were naughty that day!

          13. FYC says:

            I still think we could have a KTN retreat in say, Las Vegas. We could register by our screen names and wear name tags with our screen names and what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, so no worries right?! No seagulls allowed!

          14. MB says:

            FYC, I’m in! Maybe we could do it in New York instead since HG won’t be hiding? Seriously, HG! Get the minions to planning!

          15. WokeAF says:

            You all posted your pictures !!?!
            Omg that’s so funny
            HG must’ve had a fit !


          16. HG Tudor says:

            Not really, on your heads be it.

          17. Lorelei says:

            Omg NA. Cute.

          18. WhoCares says:


            (Hope this ends up in the right place – these threads get so long so fast lately – chose the closest ‘reply’ button)

            “I still think we could have a KTN retreat in say, Las Vegas. We could register by our screen names and wear name tags with our screen names and what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, so no worries right?!”

            Never in my life have I had any desire to travel/see Las Vegas. (I really just don’t get the appeal or what draws people there) – until now!
            Best. Idea. Yet.

          19. FYC says:

            Lol, WhoCares, I was kidding, but it would be fun. There are some great shows/concerts/etc in Vegas and some excellent restaurants and night clubs and dancing too. Of course there are pools, spas, gardens, shopping, museums and golf as well as massive gambling. It’s fun for a couple days, anything more is really too long (IMO).

            A KTN conference would be perfect for Vegas—It’s a town full of narcissists! Plus HG could appear on a screen and would not need to reveal himself (the grand wizard behind the controls). Photos and social media could be problematic though. Hence the town’s travel slogan—what happens there stays there!

          20. WhoCares says:


            I know you were kidding, but, as you say – it would be fun… I’d be up for some dancing, museums and a show (depending on who/what)! As for photos and social media – Masquerade theme?

          21. FYC says:

            WC, a masquerade theme would be perfect for a KTN conference!

          22. MB says:

            WC, I’ve never been to Vegas or seen the appeal either, but I would totally go to a narcsite convention WHEREVER to see all you peeps!

          23. WhoCares says:

            MB, the only draw Vegas could possibly have, for me, is visual – it would be fun to photograph it…but yeah, there are a lot of places that would plenty alright for a Narcsite convention.

          24. MB says:

            WC, we can dream, right? I never thought we’d actually get T-shirts either, yet…here we are.

          25. WhoCares says:


            “…never thought we’d actually get T-shirts either, yet…here we are.”

            True, that.

          26. Lorelei says:

            It’s strictly forbidden MB!

          27. MB says:

            I know, I know Lorelei. But one day, it might not be!

          28. FYC says:

            The only reason I mentioned Vegas was only due to the town slogan as a point of humor.

            I agree with you, MB, I would go wherever for a KTN conference and I do think there is value in one, but also understand and agree with HG’s valid concerns.

          29. MB says:

            FYC, What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas! I don’t think it will ever happen, but it is fun to dream about. We resurrect the idea from time to time.

          30. Lorelei says:

            It’s not fabulous whocares—highly overrated. I’ve been for conferences and could care less.

          31. HG Tudor says:

            Couldn’t care less.

          32. Lorelei says:

            About Vegas? It kinda sucked.

          33. Lorelei says:

            Oh my—I now see the grammar teacher coming out..

          34. WhoCares says:

            Lorelei – “highly overrated”…no doubt. I think the wealth of insincerity and shiny exterior would, before long, make me feel ill. Like FYC said: a city full of narcissists!

          35. NarcAngel says:

            If you want an example of highly overrated look no further than Niagara Falls. Water falls over a cliff on a loop. I’ll take Las Vegas.

          36. WhoCares says:

            Haha – at least that is a *natural* wonder “enhanced” by coloured lights…oh, and wax museums.

      2. WokeAF says:

        Oh! Never mind got it

  32. WokeAF says:

    I can’t believe it I went from empathic to narcissist back to empathic back to narcissist with Ed and it turns out —- HES A NORMAL


    So I do know what a super empath looks like
    That was the first time HG that I was able to put everything you said into seeing it in front of my eyes if that makes sense .

    This was honestly the most fun and I can’t wait for the next one .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome. Do bear in mind that not everybody will be an exact fit because of the artistic licence used for the purposes of television and the cultivation of dramatic tension and plot development (as LC eloquently articulated). There might be some ´round the edges´ with some characters which don’t completely fit, so it is best fit which caused the outcome when under the Tudorscope.

      1. Caroline R says:

        You’ve given us good points to consider.

        We can’t be as objective as we’d like to be, as TV ‘jounalism’ and any Agatha Christie production shows us.
        When events and characters are presented in a certain way and in a certain order, it’s like a magician pushing a card from a deck on us ‘randomly’; we are led along a particular path, a particular train of thought is followed, we’re presented with an pre-packaged understanding.
        This is the intention of the writer or the director.

        It’s the same situation with media-slanting; the person takes notice of certain things, and discounts or overlooks other things in forming an opinion based on what’s presented.
        Presented information may be one-sided, extremely biased, and contain only a little sliver of the truth.

        Music overlaid on actions, and colour of scenes or clothing are well-known for being misleading. The ‘Jaws’ soundtrack being played over anything is a case in point. It makes everything seem sinister. They could have played it when Mary Louise was on screen. We’d have guessed top predator immediately.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. NarcAngel says:

          We really are manipulated on the daily with things we tend not to notice or question (as in your example of music). We know these tactics are used in media but we tend to excuse it because it’s usually entertaining us in some way. Great priming. Enter team narc.

          1. Caroline R says:

            Good points.

            On an unrelated subject, I saw some research being done on the Northern Lights in Canada. Have you ever had glimpses of them? Apparently with variations in solar activity, they can sometimes be seen in places they usually aren’t. Like Cuba!

            Has HG seen them? Obviously not now, during your summer.

            *HG, this is your next IG challenge: Nordic Northern Lights photos, please.
            You did well with dolphin and rainbow capture.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            They will be captured later in the year.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Caroline R

            I have never seen the Northern Lights and I suppose now I never will, because once HG captures them, I imagine one would only be privy to them during seduction or if they pay a fee.

  33. Presque Vu says:

    Yeehaa! Yas!!
    I didn’t do too bad!!

    I got all of them right apart from Nathan and Renata and what level of Narc they are. But where is Jane?
    I have truly enjoyed this – thanks!! You are a star HG because I have come on leaps and bounds in my learning. Thank you for being a fabulous teacher – the best!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well done and you are welcome.

  34. WokeAF says:

    Gonna need a breakdown on Perry and Mary Louise tho

  35. WokeAF says:

    Ha! I KNEW Nathan “felt” like my babydaddy!!

    Alright didn’t do too bad!
    Got all my empaths and narcissists right ! (Although not all the schools)

    Ed’s just a normie?!

    1. Twisted Heart says:

      Woke AF,
      Nathan reminded me of my daughter’s dad too and I voted narcissistic but not a narc. Now I’m almost certain that I have only dated narcs. And he was one of the better guys on my roster. He is a wonderful dad but I can tell when he’s around different people he can really turn on the good guy facade. Through our entire relationship I never felt emotionally supported and that was the main reason I finally ended it. According to HG, I’m a majority Contagion so I can totally relate to how Bonnie felt in that relationship.
      And Ed’s a normal?? Hahahaha! I think after being part of this blog for so long no one seems “normal” anymore.
      Thank you HG for all your time and effort in educating us.
      Just last night a friend suggested I was codependent and then I directed him over to your site. He couldn’t believe how much time and money I have invested in acquiring this knowledge. He thinks it’s a disorder in itself. It probably is🤷🏻‍♀️. But it gives me the answers I need.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You’re welcome

      2. WokeAF says:

        Until last week I had thought my kids dad was narcissistic but not a narc.
        That’s what I additional initially went with for Nathan to because of that .
        Because of Nathan all the pieces have clicked into place .
        I’m actually still digesting this. It’s not really fun. It’s sad. But I am not going back over my relationship and dissecting every little thing that happened in order to see that he didn’t actually love me I’m not gonna do that .
        Yeah he’s a narcissist. It’s OK I love him anyway.
        But , you know. Over there.————>>

        1. WokeAF says:

          WAY. The fuck. Over there—->

          1. Caroline R says:

            You made me laugh WokeAF!

            It’s ok to still love your Ns.
            Even from a distance.
            No shame!

          2. WokeAF says:

            Well he’s my kids dad. We were together age 21-31 and still relatively close ( he ended up homeless and on my couch about three times ) from age 31-44
            Last year I realized that I just couldn’t have him in my home anymore because he always caused conflict . A few months later my son decided he didn’t want to go to his dads house anymore for various reasons which I support . And sometime during this period of time the kids dad picked up a Coke habit .
            And then a couple of weeks ago it finally clicked that his father is indeed a narcissist . (DUH) – i’ve known the guy for like 24 years so it took a little while for the cognitive dissonance to settle out .

            Now I still have some love for the guy as one would love a delinquent family member.
            But I’ve completely let go and I was amazed at the feeling of peace that came over me after 24 years of trying to work things out with the guy even just as a coparent .

            I see him twice a month to get child-support, I listen to him talk about the latest tragedy that life has thrown at him which of course is none of his own doing . Sometimes I update him about the kids, even though he doesn’t ask . I watch him try to maintain control have a conversation with various manipulations .
            Then I wish him well take my money and leave .
            I’m looking into getting a third-party to get the money from him so that I don’t have to deal with him at all but it’s not set up yet .

            I don’t have any love for my other narcs because I realized I never loved them to begin with- not in the true sense of the word love.

            And with any narc – especially family members ..I feel it’s ok to have love for them but from a wide berth. From NC if possible. And chances are with most narc lovers, once HG’s info really kicks in- NC will be the chosen path

      3. WokeAF says:

        I’ve only ever dated narcs too.
        And I’m a magnet and I think I have a high level of contagion .
        Nice to meet you . 💗

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          Nice to meet you as well😊
          I think my baby daddy would be a mid ranger. He is very well liked and he doesn’t have any extreme behaviours and that’s probably why I could tolerate it for 5 years, though I wanted out after 2 but he was not letting that happen and then I went into a deep depression until my body basically screamed get the fuck out. Now I am healthier and stronger than ever. He recently said to me “you were right, it was our relationship that made you depressed. Look how happy you are now!”
          I thought he was just a selfish workaholic who didn’t value me in any real way but now it all adds up and I can see his patterns playing out again with his new girlfriend. I confused confidence with cockiness in the beginning. We got pregnant so quickly that it was way harder for me to leave sooner.
          He does go out of his way to help people in need though, like strangers with car trouble or homeless people. He is protective. I’m just so glad I’m out of that relationship and standing on my own two feet.
          After him, I was with 2 very scary and dangerous narcs and that was my wake up call.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Ya we got pregnant on purpose at age 21 —8 months after we met.

            Bc obv I’m a genius
            Everything makes sense now and it’s more of a relief than anything
            I know how to deal w him now and don’t feel the bad emotions bc I know what he’s saying , why, etc and how to speak to him to achieve what I’m looking for and avoid conflict .

            And I have a totally separate life I only ever see him twice a month to get child-support anyhow so it’s all good

          2. Twisted Heart says:

            I agree Woke AF! Once you understand how fuel works it’s so much easier to disengage from their non sensical behaviours. I try to apply this logic to all my interactions now (narc or not) and it has allowed me to be more efficient with my energy and has effectively helped me weed out who my true friends are. Sadly the numbers are dwindling but that’s ok, I only want the real deal these days.
            AND I just came to the realization that since Bonnie is a Contagion she could never feel love for Nathan because as a narc he never had it in the first place!!!!
            Oh that explains a lot about my past relationships.
            HG, are there any male super empaths? Could you give me an example of one? Since I have a thing for narcs, a super empath man would be dreamy! Like a 70/30 split (empath majority of course).

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Yes there are. I am not in a position to provide a list at the current time.

          4. Twilight says:

            Twisted Heart

            Your wrong about Bonnie not feeling love for Nathan because he is a narcissist,

            I loved my narcissists, I was never in love with my narcissists. I have never been in love with anyone. I have yet to find one could handle the depth of my love.

          5. WokeAF says:

            HG you can’t provide a list , but could you provide an article on how a male super empath would present?
            And for that matter how a female would present
            Just more detail on what a Super is about .?

          6. Twisted Heart says:

            Thanks for your input Twilight. It was just an idea that I was contemplating after watching the last episode when she said she was never in love with him. I was surprised to learn that Nathan was a narc because he reminded me so much of my daughter’s father. I never spoke about him on here because I didn’t think he was a narcissist because the devaluing was so slow and subtle but it all makes sense now. It has been another eye opening experience for me. Just like Bonnie, I felt the same way about my daughter’s dad. The feeling of love didn’t last very long at all. It was an illusion.
            I have felt deep deep love for other narcs in my life but this one relationship in particular just felt like a huge energy drain and left me depleted until I finally walked away and was able to replenish my self with all the good things that fill me up. My kids,my school, music, friends, books, running, yoga etc. Everyday I am returning to myself getting closer to peace and that is all I’ve been praying for for years.
            And just like you, I hope to one day find someone that I can love with my full capacity and have it returned.
            I hope you are well💕

      4. LC says:

        Hi Twisted Heart, you write “He is a wonderful dad” – how does that work? Does he see the children so little that they are in a permanent golden period? That’s the only scenario I can imagine how a narc father could be perceived as a wonderful father … My hope for you I and especially the children is that he is indeed a good father and therefore not a narc.

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          I think he is a good dad and my daughter adores him. He may not be a full blown narc but his empathy is very limited. He’s a proud dad but I can tell when he is “showing her off”. I can see right through it now. It used to make me so angry but I never understood why. Luckily they have me to teach them true empathy. I wish him all the best. He’s very funny and still makes me laugh to this day. It’s the reason we lasted as long as we did.

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