The Overwhelming Angel


The Overwhelming Angel appears as if heaven sent, arriving with apparent kindness, brimming with concern and bursting with cannot-do-enough-to-helpfulness.

The Overwhelming Angel is someone who appears to place you at the centre of their concerns, where they are always wanting to assist, that you have everything you need and I just wanted to make sure you are okay. No. are you really okay?

How might you spot The Overwhelming Angel? Here are many examples of The Overwhelming Angel in action. Remember, one or two of these instances is not determinative but if many of them resonate with you and/or form a pattern then there is cause for concern.

  • A telephone call or text first thing in the morning asking if you are okay when there is no reason to suppose that you are not okay. Particularly noteworthy if such a call or text comes after a similar call just as you went to sleep, so that all you have done in between the calls/messages is sleep.
  • Turning up when you are out with friends or family “on the off chance you needed something” or “just checking you are having a good time, as I was passing by.”
  • Repeated texting to ask “have you arrived okay?” when you are travelling somewhere. Particular noteworthy if you are travelling a short distance and/or travelling with a group.
  • Behaving like you are on a first date when you have been in a relationship for some time.
  • Turning up at your house very early in the morning when you have been on a night out, the night before with friends or family, either wanting to check that you had a good time or bringing you breakfast.
  • Insistence on accompanying you to medical appointments, especially ones which might involve a psychologist or therapist.
  • Appearing to be concerned about your diet but making decisions on your behalf “I didn’t buy any wine when I went shopping as I am worried that we (you) might be drinking too much.”, “Where are the Pringles? Oh I there them out, they are fattening.”
  • Providing unfounded warnings about individuals “You won’t have noticed this because you do not pick up on these things like I do, but Lisa´s husband Geoff pervs over you, so it might be a good idea if you do not got to Lisa´s tonight. I don’t want to cause any trouble, but I am just looking out for you.”
  • Commenting on your choice of clothing, “I think you look fantastic but do you really want to be wearing something that tight going into town, you know what some of the men can be like.” It is usually the case that the clothing is not especially tight either.
  • Overriding your transport choices “It will be easier if I drive you there, safer than getting a taxi or bus.” Particular noteworthy if you have already made a decision to use a form of transport and/or you are travelling with others.
  • Turning up to give you a lift home when you have not asked for one.
  • Making decisions for you concerting your health, “You sound a little bunged up to me, I think you have a cold coming on, I think it would be best if you stayed in tonight and let me look after you, okay?”
  • Appearing uninvited under the auspices of making you feel better when there is no problem to being with “Hi, I am on my way around to you with a care package because you sounded a little down earlier and it is my job to make sure you are happy, I will be there in 10 minutes, see you then.”
  • Limiting your opportunity to spend time with other people often done without consulting you “I told Bill and Jenny that you were feeling exhausted after a frantic week at work so I said we couldn’t make it tonight,” or “I rang your mum and said we would give this weekend a miss because you needed a rest.”
  • Increasingly frantic but apparently caring calls and messages if you have not responded, often laden with melodrama (“I have called three times and you have not answered, I am frantic with worry that something might have happened to you.” – you told the narcissist you are going next door for a glass of wine, not entered a war-torn part of Syria).

What distinguishes The Overwhelming Angel is that this type of narcissist may not rely on Pity Plays (“I am feeling down, why not stay with me tonight rather than going to the movies with your friends, please?”) or displays of Grandiosity (lots of gift buying, booking trips away, always paying) but it is all about this narcissists sole concern for your well-being, health and best interests.

The behaviour will be overly paternalistic demonstrating an “I know what is best for you” approach, you will be denied the ability to make decisions about your own life, where you go, what you do, who you see, what you choose to eat, wear, watch and so forth. Considerable subtlety will be demonstrated with the comments, they will generally lack force and manifest in ways such as “I am not saying you are overweight but you might want to cut down on the dining out for a while with people from work” or “You probably have not noticed but you have been rather tetchy as of late, you are running yourself down and you do not want to make yourself ill do you. I think it would be best if you have a weekend at home, yes?”

The Overwhelming Angel wants to ensure that you are isolated from anything which enables you to assert who you are, detached and removed from anything that defines you as a separate entity from the narcissist. The Overwhelming Angel like any narcissist sees you as an extension of him or herself and in this instance the extension is based upon an overriding desire to look after you.

Let’s revisit the behaviours above and decipher them further.

  • A telephone call or text first thing in the morning asking if you are okay when there is no reason to suppose that you are not okay. Particularly noteworthy if such a call or text comes after a similar call just as you went to sleep, so that all you have done in between the calls/messages is sleep. (Lack of boundary recognition by invading and regulating your time before sleep and time on waking (possibly being woken by the “caring call”. Sense of entitlement. The narcissist wants to make sure you are alone.)
  • Turning up when you are out with friends or family “on the off chance you needed something” or “just checking you are having a good time, as I was passing by.” (Lack of boundary recognition, sense of entitlement and wanting to ascertain who you are with to gauge any potential threats.)
  • Repeated texting to ask “have you arrived okay?” when you are travelling somewhere. Particular noteworthy if you are travelling a short distance and/or travelling with a group. (Keeping tabs on your movement)
  • Behaving like you are on a first date when you have been in a relationship for some time. (Extension of love bombing and lack of awareness as to how a normal, healthy relationship progresses because the narcissist has never been in one)
  • Turning up at your house very early in the morning when you have been on a night out, the night before with friends or family, either wanting to check that you had a good time or bringing you breakfast. (Wanting to see if someone else is there, facade of kindness, lack of boundary recognition by turning up very early when you have been on the razzle the night before and therefore wanting to sleep your hangover off)
  • Insistence on accompanying you to medical appointments, especially ones which might involve a psychologist or therapist, preventing you from attending medical appointments (where you have organised one to dispute the fact the narcissist says there is something wrong with you) or insisting you attend a medical appointment (just to check everything is okay when the narcissist has organised it)(Concern about outside interference, opportunity to contest the option of a medical expert which manifests grandiosity and haughtiness, opportunity to harness medical opinion to declare “told you so” under the banner of apparently caring)
  • Appearing to be concerned about your diet but making decisions on your behalf “I didn’t buy any wine when I went shopping as I am worried that we (you) might be drinking too much.”, “Where are the Pringles? Oh I threw them out, they are fattening.” (Belittlement, lack of boundary recognition,  acquisition of property)
  • Providing unfounded warnings about individuals “You won’t have noticed this because you do not pick up on these things like I do, but Lisa´s husband Geoff pervs over you, so it might be a good idea if you do not got to Lisa´s tonight. I don’t want to cause any trouble, but I am just looking out for you.” (Lies, Gaslighting, Smearing)
  • Commenting on your choice of clothing, “I think you look fantastic but do you really want to be wearing something that tight going into town, you know what some of the men can be like and you don’t want to end up a victim of something horrible happening.” It is usually the case that the clothing is not especially tight either. (Blameshifting, Insult)
  • Overriding your transport choices “It will be easier if I drive you there, safer than getting a taxi or bus.” Particular noteworthy if you have already made a decision to use a form of transport and/or you are travelling with others. (Lack of boundary recognition)
  • Turning up to give you a lift home when you have not asked for one. (Sense of entitlement)
  • Making decisions for you concerting your health, “You sound a little bunged up to me, I think you have a cold coming on, I think it would be best if you stayed in tonight and let me look after you, okay?” (Sense of entitlement, Isolating)
  • Appearing uninvited under the auspices of making you feel better when there is no problem to being with “Hi, I am on my way around to you with a care package because you sounded a little down earlier and it is my job to make sure you are happy, I will be there in 10 minutes, see you then.” (Sense of entitlement, lack of boundary recognition)
  • Limiting your opportunity to spend time with other people often done without consulting you “I told Bill and Jenny that you were feeling exhausted after a frantic week at work so I said we couldn’t make it tonight,” or “I rang your mum and said we would give this weekend a miss because you needed a rest.” (Isolating)
  • Increasingly frantic but apparently caring calls and messages if you have not responded, often laden with melodrama (“I have called three times and you have not answered, I am frantic with worry that something might have happened to you.” – you told the narcissist you are going next door for a glass of wine, not entered a war-torn part of Syria). (Lack of boundary recognition)

In all of these behaviours there will be facade management as the narcissist actually believes that he or she is a good, kind and caring person and cannot see that the various strands of narcissistic behaviour amount to two things. The gathering of fuel from you and of course control. Control over where you go, who you see, what you eat, where you dance, where you shop, who you spend time with and for how long.

Owing to the ensnarement that you have, either as IPPS, IPSS and also this can affect NISSs, your emotional thinking is likely to be high and therefore much of this behaviour goes unnoticed for what it is – control. Instead you are likely to think that this person is ever so sweet, very caring, sensitive, thoughtful and considerate. Even if you notice the red flags, your emotional thinking will seek to obscure it by making you feel guilty if you protest, reject or disagree with this behaviour.

This type of behaviour is seen most of all with Middle Mid Range, Lower Mid Range Narcissists and occasionally by Middle Lesser Narcissists.

If you make some kind of stand against the apparent kindness, thoughtfulness and considerate behaviour, you will experience behaviours such as these :-

  • Sulking (Present Silent Treatment)
  • Moving to Pity Plays (but not starting with them) (“I am only trying to look after you, there’s not need to be horrible.”)
  • Application of Guilt (“I do all of this for you and you still insist on going out in this weather as well and risk getting ill?”
  • Triangulation (“I wonder what your mother would think if she knew you were going out for the third time this week.”)
  • Belittlement (“Wearing that does you no favours at all and you will get unwelcome attention.”)
  • Character Assassination (“No wonder people say you are a slut when you dress like that. I wish you wouldn’t make it so easy for them.”)
  • Haughtiness (“Oh forget it, I am just trying to look after you, but you do what you want as usual, I’m sick of caring. Fuck you.”)
  • Absent Silent Treatment.
  • Threat (“You’d better stay here otherwise……”)
  • Digging Up The Past (“Look what happened last time you went against my advice, (insert once apparently buried one-off mishap)”)
  • Revision of History (“Last time you did this, you know what happened don’t you? (Insert adverse fabricated event).

The manipulation that is the false care and concern evidence by The Overwhelming Angel will shift to a different form of manipulation in order to assert control as a consequence of your stand which will either be wounding or more usually Challenge Fuel.

The Overwhelming Angel strives (instinctively) to overwhelm you.

You may be overwhelmed by this kindness.

That is precisely what the narcissism wants.

When you are overwhelmed, you are controlled.






  1. Showing up with a celebrity friend (just picked up from the airport) so she could freshen her face (unannounced), then asking me & my daughter to dinner… giving us a ten minute time frame to get ready… When moments before (while he was en route to pick her up at the airport) we were in a heated discussion on the phone about his inability to let me know about things before they happen. Oh I thought we had this planned… you knew this was the story. On and on… we all know

  2. Empath007 yes he kept it up for a year – every single day and night and throughout the day while at work. Yes I total enjoyed it and YES I did assume he cared. It’s very addictive! When my devaluation happened I did not know it! We were literally in mid conversation when it all ended – I believe he was married and lied to me about it! Nothing different b/w us – he just disappeared.

    My shame is overbearing b/c now I feel like a whore or a home wrecker – I keep thinking all he had to do was be truthful upfront and none of this would be happening.

    I blocked him from all avenues so I know I’m okay as he’s obviously a coward and wouldn’t dare come to my home.

    It took me a couple of months to get over NOT receiving his texts as they were always sweet and endearing as he was ALWAYS kind and sweet to me – he had strange habits I’d never seen in a person before and told him that but he’d just laugh it off.

    I try to find comfort in the fact that my devaluation was unnoticed by me as I’ve read some awful stories – trying to find good things to be thankful for – silly I know.

    My saving grace in all of this is HG – ironic given he’s a narc but it’s true. His work is always on on my phone and I always read his blog. He gave me back my inner strength and the knowledge he gives me daily is bringing HOPE back into my life so YES he is like my blessing. Silly again I know but it is what it is.

    Would you mind sharing your story? Was it extremely hard for you and did it take long for you to recover?

    You have a wonderful night and look forward to chatting with you again!!!

    1. HI Denise, I apologize I did not see this until now.

      I could tell instantly when I was being devalued, mine would easily switch gears sometimes within minutes.

      Ultimately I am the one who ended it (although you know that’s not his version of the events lol) but he can have his version I really don’t care about that anymore. I ended it because I got a confession out of him about who he truly was, he admitted it to me when I confronted him with the fact he was a narcissist. One and only time he was truly honest with me…. and boy did he regret that I’m sure (if he can even feel regret).

      Yes, recovery has been extremely hard. I have been No Contact for over a year now (15 months to be exact) and I STILL struggle daily with what happened and still think about him everyday. The only part I miss is the intimacy. We had what I believed to be a strong physical connection and I have not slept with anyone since, and its been difficult mostly in that regard. I do not miss HIM per-say… just the fake intimacy he offered. I am also still within a sphere of influence as we work for the same company (thankfully was able to transfer offices about 18 months ago) so while I do not work directly with him anymore, his friends still come to gather information on his behalf and I have had to avoid a lot of events to not run into him. I do however have to see him in a few months for a conference I can absolutely NOT avoid.

      For me I think having this Sphere of Influence open is definitely the biggest factor in me not being able to recover properly. When HG says to cut ourselves out to create true N/C there is a reason for all of that. HG is correct. I have been with my company for a while though, and I have a great deal of the narcissistic trait of pride and I absolutely did not want to be bullied out of my position. I want to leave on MY terms, no one else. I am now understanding this may not be possible…. as is the nature of the beast of being romantically involved at the office.

      I made the “mistake” (from my narcs POV) of A) getting a promotion when he was scheming to get me fired at work and B) Being the one to cut him out and go No Contact. On top of that I have not discussed what happened with anyone. C) Getting the confession out of him.

      So… needless to say from his perspective there is a massive score to be settled. I am starting to feel like I don’t need to be around anymore to put up with any of his BS… he can fight his battle alone because by the time he can actually get back at me I will have quit and dropped off the face of the earth… leaving no opportunity for him to “get me” …. This is if I can time it right… not sure if I can pull it off but I will sure try… luckily to HG I am on to him. Hopefully this gives me the leg up on him. But doubtful as I couldn’t keep up with his manipulations if I tried.

      Needless to say… I am still young and learning these lessons early in life… and lets sure hope this is my first and LAST narc I ever date… because I never want to go through something this dam dramatic again.

      Sorry that was so bloody long! I got on a role lol.

      have a great day!

  3. This had me thinking a lot of my grandmother. I think she mightve been this kind of narcissist. I hate saying it bc she did many acts of kindness and helped so many but there was always an underlying benefit and that was control. I love my grandmother very deeply but i am aware she had npd among other issues. This write up fits her very closely. She had taken a family member and nursed them which i have a ton of respect for but im not so sure it was solely for their benefit alone. I hope im wrong and if i am im ashamed to speculate this but i do think she enjoyed being in control of their health and being in charge.
    She was always the one in charge. The one who brought family together. The one who helped in the prison to keep inmates on the right path and the one who picked up the pieces when my mothers life fell apart. She was the one. Im thankful but i do wonder her motives if they stemmed from npd.
    She would always take charge and on several occasions would tell me what i was going to do and many of those times id say no this is what ive decided to do. She was relentless and eventually gave up and would say how stubborn i was then give me a silent treatment and make me feel guilty. A few times she got in my face and was aggressive but i held calm and didnt sway which really infuriated her. To be honest she scared me sometimes bc she could be loud and aggressive. She was always trying to be the one helping people but also taking charge of their lives for them.
    She did this with her sisters son during a rocky time in his life. Instead of letting her sister handle it and grow she stepped in and completely took over.
    I loved her dearly but im certain she had npd and altho she did help many i do think there were ulterior motives which i dont think she was even aware of herself.

      1. I dated a MMR overwhelming angel for about 14 months and during that time I had around 8 flat tires. I am 30 years old and have only ever had 10 flat tires since turning 16 and 8 of the 10 were during the time I dated my ex. Hg, do you think my ex was causing these flat tires so he could “help” me?

  4. HG—this type of person is not resonating with me as anyone I’ve encountered, however, the examples of behavior are valuable. Calling out the various manipulations so clearly in what before would have seemed fairly innocuous is a win for all of us. It’s a lot of my focus and I’m seeing so much more almost daily and putting puzzles together.

  5. MAKE SURE I AM ALONE and KEEPING TABS ON ME! CONTROL!!! EVERY morning and EVERY night he sent me a text – EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR A YEAR! Hell I thought it was because he “cared” – he made himself the first thing I thought of every morning and last thing every night!

    SPOT ON regarding the phone calls too! Again I thought it was because he “cared”! He even called me at lunchtime – “Did you eat?” “What was for lunch today – well you had Mexican 2 days ago”!!!

    HG I totally see the CONTROL he had now and I let him w/foolish, delusional emotional thinking.

    Oh my God…I was such a blind fool!!!!!! Hell I would have disengaged from me too!

      1. Pretty fascinating material HG, would love to see Karla Homolka under the Tudorscope alrhonits obv shes a narc – but it’s rare we see a greater female narc in everyday life . She was a vet assistant – and made her way to Canadian top serial killer history

        1. Were they working together as a team WAF?

          Apparently, when it is a team there is usually one who is the aggressor and the other is more of a follower…

          I will google that, that’s not common I’m sure to see a married couple at it together.

          1. Empath007
            Oh the Bernardo/Holmolka dynamic is quite a story. Just a warning that it’s very dark and I know that you’ve been having difficulty with that lately so be prepared.

          2. Thank you NA. I appreciate that warning and will take your advice and wait to look it up at a later time.

          3. Paul was the Scarborough Rapist before he met Karla and continued to rape . She bought into it and would select the victims and prepare (get drugs from her vet clinic she worked at)
            She even sacrificed her youngest sister to him – got her drunk and drugged up not once but twice for him to rape. The second time the sister choked unconscious on vomit and DIED.
            They then kidnapped, raped, tortured and eventually killed two more teens.
            Karla got a mere 15 yr sentence bc she assisted in Paul’s conviction . She claimed battered wife syndrome.shes out now and has her own children .
            Paul is still in jail.
            Paul was I THINK, a mid ranger. Karla was defin a Greater. High IQ and able to play to the particular audience she was dealing with.
            It’s unknown who actually killed the girls they kidnapped, they both blame each other.
            He was more of a rapist- raped like 15 women and girls and then let them go after- so it’s suspected Karla was the one to introduce murder as to dispose of the evidence rather than let them go, and since more faking evidence of HER being waaaaay more involved came out AFTER her plea deal- she was never held accountable.
            They were known as the Ken and Barbie killers too bc they were good looking, blonde, late 20’s when it all went down.
            It’s a fascinating case .

          4. empath007, I apologize in advance because this is unrelated to this discussion but if you look up Karla Homolka’s pictures and look at her facial expressions, her eyes even when she’s smiling looks dead. Hers is worse than the other narcs that I am looking at but it’s pretty similar to my younger stepdaughter than I’m pegging as a middle Lesser or lower MR. But I agree with you that some narcissists are very expressive however when I see someone smile and the eyes are like that, I’m starting to see it as a red flag personally. My older SD is a middle MR and her eyes have more life and also because she modeled so she is used to posing but when you meet her in person her eyes tend to not have a lot of life and looks bored. It only starts to have energy when you flatter her with praises or when you give her challenge fuel.

        2. WokeAF, That’s too bad that Karla now has kids. When someone commits crimes like that, part of the sentencing should be sterilization. Those kids will be abused.

  6. Wow. That was exhausting to read much less experience. The interpretations given were great for those who would feel guilt in thinking that they should not question such “kindness” lest they appear negative or ungrateful. Another excellent depiction HG.

    1. Totally! And that’s me NA. I would see it as kindness. So if my narc would have used this tactic he would have been far more successful…. guess his 3 years of studying me from a distance didn’t work out as well as he figured 🤣

      1. empath007, my half sister was like this. I think that it’s ok if you don’t realize at first what they are doing but once you hear them tell you something like, “ I did this for you or after all that I did for you or would I do this for you or buy you this if I have contempt for you?” would be a signal to stop trusting them and start avoiding them. Also the difference with the help they give is that the help tend to disrespect boundaries and are pushed upon you even if you don’t need it and want it. They are more for control over you. So you can test them by refusing the help or gift and if you see them have a difficulty with your refusal and kept pushing it to you, that is a huge red flag. I did it to my sister and I kept refusing despite of her continuous effort to convince me so she still bought it without me knowing and on our way home she handed it to me. It is a huge red flag.

        1. Good advice! The normal I was in a long term relationship with was very passive aggressive and never helped me at all… so if the narc would have taken this approach I would have seen it as a total relief… but I can definitely see how that would unravel over time especially when the help comes at a very high cost (aka ones sanity)

          That’s good advice to test it. And I will keep that in mind when I feel ready to date again.

          1. That’s a good point empath007. Normals are not perfect by all means and empaths aren’t as well. Sometimes we can be selfish or lazy as well and not take initiatives to help. So when we encounter a narc that is very ‘proactive’ at helping us or directing stuff, it can be nice but eventually it will get exhausting and suffocating. I think the difference between Normals and empaths vs narcissists is that if our help is refused, maybe we may feel a little rejection or embarrassment or maybe relief because we don’t have to do anything but at least we offered help and we are able to get over it and not push anymore. My mom would give people a hard time if they don’t take what she was giving them. She wouldn’t stop trying to convince. And it’s the same with my sister, she was personally offended by the refusal. She also got really offended when I never used the gift (that she forced upon me), constantly asking me if I already tried it and has that wounded look when I answered in a disinterested way that I haven’t.

      1. HG Tudor. If i did no know how much damages your kind can do….i will said that you are awesome and so much more, but i cannot. You are a great and wonderful teacher. You know your subject pretty well. Anyways, i m been reading you for months, so i know where i stand right now. Im discarded, in the middle of divorcing him and im pretty sure what he is. He have a new appliance(a friend of mine) and im ok. I just want to know how to kill one and for all this feeling of happiness when he calls me or touch me(casuals, hands shake., or hug).? How to stop playing his smile on my mind? And this feeling of want to allowed him to stay even though i know hus way and he is evil. Please, how?

    1. My mid range narcissist tried this approach after a discard. When he finally understood i am no longer avaible and interested in him as a man because I see him as a bad guy he tried to maintain his control over me as a parental figure “dont talk to that man”, “i want only good for you, do this, dont do that, i care for you”. Eventually I went no contact

  7. Very interesting. I think my narc used this approach with the only IPPS he ever had (the rest of us have been IPSSs)

    Sadly though… has he acted like this at the beginning… and contiuned it for quite some time.:. I probably would have responded extremly well to it and he would have been more successful. Over time it would have started to unravel but I’m ok with suffocating relationships a bit.

    So thanks for the new knowledge once again HG! I will be on the look out when I date again!

    1. Empath007 it felt heavenly to have all that at that time – now I feel totally foolish. 😖😖 I thought he cared!!!

      1. I would think the same thing. Not sure if it’s because I have co dependant tendencies? But I think this type of behaviour I would have had a harder Time figuring out.

        Is devaluation playing out the same as any other narc with the overwhelming angels HG?

      2. Was your devaluation more subtle Denise? Was your narc able to keep up this kind of act for a long time? I’m interested in the dynamic if you don’t mind sharing?

  8. This article is excellent. They are just like you describe them.

    They can be so subtle, especially at the beginning. They appear to be so sweet and caring and they hide their abuse by saying they are “soooo worried and concerned…”.

    They want to tell me how to live my life, what decisions to make although they cannot even cope with their own problems. I find them extremely intrusive. I feel uncomfortable in their presence. They exhaust me.

    When I reject their ‘well-meant help’ or ‘advice’, they punish me, even though I had never asked for it in the first place. They usually give me the ST and smear me to others.

    I was not aware that they wanted to overwhelm me.

    “When you are overwhelmed, you are controlled.”
    Now it makes sense.

    I appreciate all your new articles a lot, HG. You work really hard. They are full of valuable information to help us recognize narcissists better and faster than before! I have not seen this information anywhere else.

  9. Dearest HG: May I request that you kindly make a Podcast on this type of Narcissist. This kind ensnares a lot of people, not just of an intimate nature. I was ensnared by one of this type for years. A female. Always bringing me delicious coffee in the mornings in the apartment complex where I lived. I slowly became ensnared and I did not know what was happening. She needed help with her money and paperwork and other matters, and did not trust other people, including her bank, which I loved doing for her with her thanks being my only appreciated reward. And I would constantly tell her this, But, she of course could not realize this and of course her narcissism felt the need to ensnare me/bind me, I understand from Narcsite. It was awful for me, HG. She was always looking out for me, and I would constantly tell her I am fine, and do not need help, or coffee or food or advice about mutual people that we know. I did not know what all of her odd actions were about. And the isolation from other people over time. I always knew she smeared, but finally someone told me that she smeared me all the time. I finally broke loose. Everything about this past friendship is crashing in on me, after this article, with great clarity now. Wow! Once, I thought that maybe she was a lesbian, and I am not one, but that did not pan out either in her behavior and so I wondered and I wondered, What Is This? How Do I Get Out Of This? This type, The Overwhelming Angel, is thriving under the radar in the Narcissism community discussions. I would have gladly helped her without her activity to ensnare. If only I had known what I was dealing with, I could have continued to help her and not have apprehension and trauma and drama brought about in my life because of the mystery of what exactly was going on with her, as she called me the best friend she ever had, while behind my back she isolated me from others in the apt. complex, and smeared me and wanted me to be destroyed before others, since she desired my help in financial matters,etc., and she hated that she could trust me, ironically, and she could not trust the men she ensnared, for whatever reasons. Please Expose!

  10. “The behaviour will be overly paternalistic demonstrating an “I know what is best for you” approach, you will be denied the ability to make decisions about your own life, where you go, what you do, who you see, what you choose to eat, wear, watch and so forth.”

    This sounds exactly like my ex-husband! AND my ex-mother in law’s relationship with my ex-husband! Good fucking grief.

    Of course I just labeled him as being “loving and overprotective”. Later on that sentiment changed to “he’s trying to control my life”. Never did I once stop and think he was a narc. None of the other boxes really ticked it off for me until I read this article.

    I am now divorced from him then…along came Piano Boy. Piano Boy never acted like that. But I was Shelf IPSS not IPPS. Now you have me wondering if THIS is how he is with IPPS! And why she is STILL WITH HIM even though she caught him cheating!

    I cannot believe after being here almost 2 years I have come the realization that I traded one pile of crap for another. I went from an overwhelming angel to an angel with a dirty face!

    I feel like there is no hope for me. I am just waiting for that third fucking whatever the fuck he is to come along and continue this trilogy of narc fuckery.

    I also spent the last hour crying over Piano Boy ignoring me and then I read this article. Thanks a lot HG. (said with sarcasm but also appreciation even though it is cloaked in sarcasm and a high emotional state of mind).

    1. SF,
      The fact that you now have another “missing piece” to the narcissistic world can be VERY hopeful…your epiphany brings increased awareness. It is in your power to take action (<there's where your hope lies), to protect yourself & steer clear of these types.❤

    2. It’s funny how it becomes obvious who the narcs in our past were. The biggest for me was the DUH! Moment that it hit my kids dad is one. I’ve known him for 24 years so the IDEA I had of who he is took a while to break down.
      It all becomes so obvious

  11. HG, you are a super genius. You know narcs like no one else. I have had three narcissists in my life, all very different, and in your various works you perfectly describe every one of them. This article describes the man who stalked me for a year. It could literally be about him specifically. We were friends and he wanted more, but I wasn’t interested. He was set on proving to me that he was better than any other man, and he said “one day you will realize what I am worth”. He the did all of these things that I recognized as invasive and controlling. He insisted he was just loving me and I was being unreasonable. He said “you mistake caring for controlling.” I can feel my blood pressure rising as I write this. God I hate him so much (does hating someone mean I can’t be an empath?). He finally stopped when I got the police involved, so I really hope that’s the end of it.

    1. You are welcome.

      Review your no contact regime to ensure it is as tight as possible, that is what reduces the risk of hoovers. Do not rely on hope.

  12. HG
    Great article!
    Thank you!

    You gave me the creeped-out feeling and smothered feeling, and the low grade nausea that such people have provoked in me in the past.
    I couldn’t get away fast enough.

    If you want space, they leave 20 voicemail messages on your phone in one day.
    They buy you groceries and leave them on your doorstep.
    They take it on themselves to collect your mail when you’re away, despite the fact that you’ve made other arrangements.
    They try to lend you money, or pay for things “oh, you can pay me back later…”, to get you under financial obligation.
    They will ring places and make appointments on your behalf when they have no business doing so.

    They will go and talk to someone on your behalf without your knowledge or authorisation, totally misrepresenting themselves and your relationship/acquaintance.

    If you stay with them on holiday, you can never relax or sleep in, or do anything by yourself. They wake you up early, and plan your activities.
    You are obligated to fit in with their schedule.
    Your ‘holiday’ exhausts you, and you need a holiday by yourself to decompress from the strain of their company.

    If you’re single, they constantly try to push you and their bachelor son together, despite there being zero attraction between you.

    If you’re out at a work do, and you’re googling something, they’ll try to grab/commandeer your phone under the pretext of “helping” you “oh, you’re holding a drink, and your clutch…you can’t type as fast as I can…”

    It’s like being smothered by an octopus, and pulled down so that you drown.
    It feels like a drowning.

  13. Yay, new post!

    This reminds me a little of a family member. She really likes to get all up in your business and be ‘helpful’ at times when you really don’t want or need it. But rather than sounding concerned, her tone is usually annoyance, as if she can’t believe you are bothering her with need of her help. And she will hold onto the fact that she helped you for years and use it to control even more. I have some stories about it that I’d love to share here, they are kind of funny to me now, but I don’t know if I feel quite comfortable as they are pretty specific details. I may set up a different account to share.

      1. Well I just changed it so it didn’t have my real name or an image that I had drawn, just in case. Sorry to disappoint, I am not a real fox, or even a furry. lol

        1. The fox is one of my fav creatures…right up there with horses & dolphins. In the world of empaths, I feel like the fox would be half Magnet/half Carrier…the dolphin would be part Geyser/part Savior…and the horse would be a mix of all. I’m actually only goofily speculating on life’s beautiful creatures so that the Resident Narcissist doesn’t get irritated that I’m straying OT.

          Anyway, beautiful fox pic.🦊

          1. Well I like your speculations.I love horses and dolphins too. 🙂 It actually made me go reread the Carrier Empath article, so maybe he will forgive us for straying.

          2. Thank you, Fox🦊~most kind of you.💙

            I forgot to mention the elephant…those old-soul, super intelligent, engaging, amazing creatures.🐘 I especially love them too…what Empath(s) do you think they would be?🤔

          3. Elephants feel like Carrier to me!!
            This is fun
            Ok what’s Lion, Dog, Cat, Monkey?
            Lion seems to me a Magnet
            Dog codependent lol and contagion
            Cat is defin a Super – but super what? Lol maybe Cat is narc
            Monkey seems like Geyser to me

          4. WAF,
            I love your analysis! Expressive, active monkeys (not including throwing “stuff”) are for sure Geysers. 🙈🙉🙊 I’m calling the cat a SE & the Black Widow a narc🕷 I love powerful lions – but some of the males’ behaviors are a pretty narcy (mating & disengaging all over the place/guarding “their” pride/best food must be brought to them/fighting other males to the death, for territorial reasons).

            Ok, Caroline must stop playing.🥺 Moving Day 2 awaits.😱

          5. Hmm, well I think elephants are intelligent enough to have a very wide variety of types. I would not even think they are all empaths necessarily, though most probably would be.

          6. I love lions. The female lion is very independent. And she will personally rip you to pieces. However, when she does find the need to call the male lion for help, and when he does heed her call, you may as well pay your final respects to whomever or whatever you believe in. You essentially have no chance to make it out alive.

          7. PSE~Yes, the lionesses are fierce kitty cats in their own right.💛 …and I have a particular fondness for courageous/loyal males of any species. 💛

          8. I’m enjoying this conversation. 😊. I like the expressive monkey as Geyser comparison. Dogs also make me think of Geysers being very expressive as well, you can always tell how they feel. As for narcissists, I tend to think of something beautiful but poisonous or dangerous like a lion fish or a lion. You just want to touch them but you can’t. Horses make me think of Carriers. Magnets make me think of a swan or a pink flamingo. 😊

          9. MP,
            Most horses make me think of Carriers too…the racers make me think of Magnets + Carriers. I ❤ horses…so sensitive, so powerful, so exquisitely beautiful. Having the privilege of riding a horse has always made me feel especially free.🐎 I especially love to witness horses in the wild.

          10. Caroline is fine, I love horses too but I have not had the privilege of learning to ride until in my late twenties so I only know the basics and can only control a well-broken or old horse. My five year old started taking lessons last summer and it’s so fun watching him have the biggest smile with his chin up while riding the horse. It’s amazing how much confidence and happiness it can give to people. I agree with everything that you said about them. And I can totally see the Thoroughbreds as part Magnet part Carrier, they are so beautiful and dignified with their long and slender but athletic figures. They are also champions. When I think of a Super Empath Carrier I imagine an Arabian horse because of its spunk, fire and ability to survive in hostile situations such as the desert. Standard Carriers make me think of Quarter and Paint horses and Condependent Carriers I imagine to be the Gaited breeds. Haha I’m obviously overthinking this. 😂.

            For Saviors I imagine dogs for the reasons that NarcAngel said. Super Empaths make me think of German Shepherds (my favorite breed). I had one that died last year and we loved him and even my five yr old boy cried. He was a beautiful white German Shepherd and he was so amazingly gentle with the kids that he tolerated everything that they did to him that would have made other dogs snap although I made sure they did not keep touching him in those ways. Before I had kids we used to go jogging together around a lake nearby our house and whenever we encountered someone on the trail he would go in front of me in a protective way although he didn’t threaten anybody. I have never had anybody be so protective and obsessed with me as that dog. He was so beautiful and dignified as well. Dogs and horses are both indeed amazing animals and I can totally imagine them being empaths.

          11. Aw, I’m sorry about the loss of your dog, MP.😥 I had a very sweet-souled Golden that passed away awhile back, and it is so painful to lose these loveable creatures. Dogs are so wonderful. I now have an adopt-a-pet (program) mixed breed doggie…he has Golden, Chow, Hound & Beagle in him. I know, he sounds like a hot mess…but he’s actually such a cute, smart & sweet doggie.💙

            Dogs are paws-and-tails above narcs, in terms of relating to Empaths. Dogs are so real – in the moment – and reciprocal without condition.🐾

          12. Caroline is fine, Thank you, I really miss my dog. I really wish that he is still here. Golden Retrievers are beautiful and gentle souls indeed. I’m sorry for your loss as well. They are probably the best family dogs. They are so beautiful too.
            And thank you for mentioning the adopt a pet program. I wasn’t aware of it until now and I looked it up and saw a few dogs in our area that I want to look at for adoption. I can only adopt one. We want to get another dog but not a German Shepherd anymore because they are very big and we will move to live in three different countries (one year in each country) after my husband retires so we want a small dog that can travel with us. Our kids have been asking for a dog and they love every dog that they see in public. I can’t wait to have a new family member. We currently have a cat so we need a dog that can get along with a cat. It sounds like your dog is a great dog. I’m happy that you found each other. I wish our family can be the same way for a dog soon. 😊

          13. MP,
            German Shepherds are fantastic dogs, but I understand your practicality in wanting a smaller dog. A great aspect to the pet adoption program is that you can spend as much time as you like with the animals, and it really gives you a good opportunity to feel out what dog/cat is right for your home/family…and as Empaths, I think we have a Sixth Sense in these matters, which means the right animal finds the right home to love him/her — and to flourish.💛

          14. Thank you Caroline is fine. I can’t wait to find out who will be our new family dog. The problem with me is once the dog is home with us and the dog gets attached to us, it will be hard for us to return the dog even if the dog may not be the perfect fit. It will make me feel that I’m letting the dog down so I will end up trying until the end to make it work. So I think I should first do a lot of research and meet the dog first with my family before we bring the dog home. That’s why I used to think that I might have a codependent in me and I was surprised that HG didn’t find any during the Detector. Although I have a tiny sprinkle of martyr but he said that it’s not the same as a codependent. Anyway, it does help that they tell you if the dog will be ok with little kids or not and also with cats. I am surprised that a lot of dogs cannot live with a man in the household. I wonder if some dogs prefer women but why would the shelter discriminate on men right away before the application instead of maybe trying to see if the dog might like a family that has a male in it because I think we just will not know for sure until the dog meets the family. 🤷‍♀️

          15. MP,
            I hear ya…unless a dog acted like Cujo when I got the dog home, I’d likely not be able to return either! I actually only meant spending time with the animals at the adopt-a-pet program location, but there may be places that will allow “trial runs” at your own home.

            Doing a lot of research on dog breeds is wise. I did the same (so I knew a lot about all the breeds in my current mixed doggie). I was worried the Chow-Chow in him may make him a bit too fierce, but it really hasn’t — however, I trained him as a pup, and I was firm when he occasionally did little growls at others, early on — and it stopped that behavior straight away. He is super laid back and gentle/easy. Too bad that my expert training methods don’t work on narcs! <threw that statement in, so that HG won't be as apt to protest our dog convo.😎

            I think some of the breeds that do best with a male in the house are those with a strong pack mentality/ancestry…so they will follow the male around much more, instinctively feeling: "there's the alpha provider!" One of my guy friends has a dog that's half Chow…and I DO know he feels like he is constantly being stalked.😂

          16. Ah thanks for clarifying. I saw an option to foster the dogs and I wasn’t sure how that works so I thought that it was what you meant, sort of like a trial run with them. I don’t think that I would do very well with it and also my kids. A few months ago my youngest stepdaughter needed us to take care of her dog while she was looking for a new apartment and I agreed even though I’m in No Contact with her as we had been in a very toxic dynamic for almost ten years but only intermittently as she and I never lived together. I am pegging her as a Lesser. She then decided after a few weeks that she will give up the dog to us permanently. The dog bonded with me and the kids and even chose me as her main person to follow around and obey. Then after I gave her a make over with new collar, leash and dog tags my stepdaughter changed her mind and took the dog back. My kids got really sad and actually up to now they still keep talking about the dog to other people. It’s amazing how much these things make an imprint in their little brains. So I wouldn’t want that to happen again. I will really make sure to do research before bringing home a new dog so that it will work. I think that you are right and that is a great point about dog breeds with strong pack mentality looking for an alpha. My GSD used to follow my husband around even though I was his owner before I married my husband. It was funny. 😊.
            Haha I don’t think that any of us will ever be able to train a narcissist. They train us with their manipulations but they will always resist being trained by us in any way. It’s not worth the attempt. 😆. Dogs are more than willing to be trained. They want to make it work and they want to please us and make us happy. I’m not even a good trainer but I was able to teach my GSD to sit, lie down and shake my hand. That’s because he was really smart and sweet. 😊

          17. MP,
            I feel so bad about your family having to give the doggie back.😪 Not fair! Maybe she’ll change her mind again, in which case, have her sign a contract. 🐾Doggie Rights!🐾

            Sit/Come & Stay (or Lie Down) is really all you need to train (“No bark” if they’re over-barkers, which can be helpful)…so shaking hands was a cute bonus train!😉 I lucked out with this little doggie~he’s the sharpest little doggie I’ve ever had, so he was a dream to train…like he taught himself to push the ice cube dispenser to get an ice cube out for himself🥰…and when too many come out, he looks at me like, “Oops.”😂

          18. Haha that’s so cute that he gets ice for himself. I love smart domesticated dogs. 🥰. And it sounds like he is so expressive too!
            Yeah it was a bummer with my stepdaughter. I just told my husband to just say no next time. I was ok with taking care of her dog temporarily but she had to make it complicated by saying that she’s giving the dog to us permanently. I guess that would qualify as a hoover even though I never talked to her and her dad was the one talking to her. But I just look at it that if we didn’t take care of the dog, the dog may have ended up in a shelter; that’s what my husband told me in the first place which is why I agreed to take the dog temporarily. Narcs really have a tendency to make everything complicated lol. As long as we don’t let it get to us it doesn’t really matter. 😊💕

          19. MP,
            Narcs DO complicate everything…I can see it now, how they thrive on the chaos, for diversionary purposes & fuel. Lately, I’ve been more suspicious of people who always seem to make everything so blame hard — like they’re *trying* to be impossible. “Are you aggravating everyone, like it’s 50 block goals in a row of immovability – and then pity-play excuses? Then you must be a narc!” 🕵️‍♀️Then again, some people can be rather unlucky or just ill-equipped, so it’s hard to know sometimes🤷‍♀️

          20. Caroline is fine, I think that it’s probably a good thing to be suspicious so that you don’t get ensnared easily. I now take heed of red flags better than I used to. I have said this before but it is true, HG has an amazing gift in communication that he was able to name and describe all of these red flag behaviors in a way that everybody can understand them. But personally I am more paying attention to behaviors. NarcAngel I think posted something somewhere where if the behaviors or the dynamic is toxic, then she avoids the person. I am the same way. Normals and empaths can also behave in a way that is toxic or damaging to us. Unlike narcissists, they will have guilt or remorse if they find out what they did and may make corrections or improvements even if at first they were ill equipped. Sometimes normals and empaths just really believe that their behaviors were justified because of some belief or impression or perspective that they have so they will keep doing the same behaviors that are damaging or toxic to you. Should we still put up with it just because they are not narcissists? I don’t think that we should. My husband is one of those stubborn headed people who refuse to label people as narcissists because it seems too weird for him to label someone with a disorder. His ex wife in my opinion is a Victim MRN. He thinks she is just a bad combination of stupidity and selfishness. And yet, without him identifying her as a narcissist, he has limited his interactions with her in such a way that you would think he believes her to be a narcissist. He doesn’t ever talk to her unless it’s about their special needs son. He avoids her all the time and when he sees her he doesn’t even say hi to her. When he has to talk to her it is always short and with no emotion. Like one time she texted him about picking up her son at our house at such a day and time (2pm for example) because they are going to do something together and then she brought up that she heard that he is replacing the old windows with new ones and said to him that she hopes he doesn’t replace the rose stained glass windows because she loves them. The only reply that he sent her was, “We will wait for you until 2.” 😁

          21. You are incorrect about the toxicity of normals and empaths. That is not to say that they are not incapable of unpleasant behaviours but the frequency of the same and the driving force behind them does not mean they are individuals to be avoided. Read The Empathy Cake.

          22. Thank you HG, I understand that I have oversimplified. I was thinking of Normals and Empaths who are under a wrong perception and behaves in an unpleasant or toxic manner against you. For example, when my husband just got divorced, his ex wife smeared him to a lot of people. He was paying her the alimony that he was ordered to pay and yet she went to church asking for food and financial help and telling them that he wasn’t paying up. A church member who was probably an empath upbraided him for that and always looked at him like he was a deadbeat whenever they saw each other at the church. He then avoided the man. I think that some Normals and empaths can engage in unpleasant behaviors when they do not have all of the information and sometimes there is nothing that we can do because the narcissist is much more convincing. In the case of my husband, his ex wife acts like a meek lamb so she was pretty convincing. But it was an oversimplification and I should have given an example and I agree with you that it doesn’t automatically mean that they should be avoided.

          23. Noted. See “Why Is Divorce So Hard” to understand how empaths and normals might respond in an unpleasant way and how they proceed thereafter.

          24. MP,
            Even if he doesn’t label her, he’s apparently got enough forethought & discipline to both avoid getting caught up with her stuff and not unnecessarily provoke either…

            “We will wait for you until 2.”

            I mean, that’s pretty perfect.😂

          25. Haha so true! I asked him how he learned that and he said from many years of dealing with her bullshit. People here are in a much fortunate position to have HG guide them during the divorce to avoid similar things that my husband went through. She did all kinds of stuff to him and even to his second wife. It really is best to have an expert’s guidance than to go through it with trial and error.

          26. MP,
            “Many years dealing with her bullshit”😂 <That is a man who has mastered the trial-and-error of what gives him the most peace!

            I was with my nex-BF for 3 years, and I think I mainly ignored a lot of his BS…which he wasn't a fan of, so he'd up the ante, and then I'd break up with him…until he'd Prince Charming me back. That wasn't at all stupidly nuts!😂

            The biggest eye-opener for me as to how his mind works was when he (years after our final breakup) was divorcing his then-wife & would call to talk to me about what was going on (I didn't realize he was a narc yet – thought I was just being kind to him in a rough time)…so he'd free-float thoughts on her, and it was seriously like listening to a 16-year-old. I mean, I had to suppress laughter — it was that ridiculous. One time, he told me, "She just yelled down that she was making salmon for dinner, and asked did I want some…everything always has to be that witch's idea."

            WTH?? No words…😂

          27. OMG Caroline is fine that is hilarious! 😂. He was probably giving her silent treatment that’s why she was yelling at him and he still didn’t have the ability to realize what he was doing to her that was making her pissed. It’s always that witch’s fault!! 😂😂🤣.

            It sounds like your nex-BF was a MR. It’s amazing how similar they are. My MR half sister used me as a therapist as well and she just went on and on and also sounded like a 16 yr old. She had really high IQ and even got accepted in Mensa but her thoughts when she went on tangents will make you wonder about her intellect. It was horrible when she was living with me because it was hard to escape her, she always found me. At first her silent treatments made me feel sad and confused and wondering what was going on, but eventually I found myself looking forward to it. 😁. This is why they go after us and not the Normals because only empaths would be kind enough to listen to them. 😊

          28. MP,
            I used to think he was a UMR (was torn on that or a Greater category that hits most everything), but he fully knows what he is, and not in a subconscious or lack-of-knowledge way — he’s known for a long time he has NPD/fully accepts it (feels it’s a plus, especially with his career), and we’ve talked about it in-depth. The reason I know this is a whole other story, of fairly recent events. I tried to help his (original) family members get him into therapy, when they reached out to me…he had a breakdown of sorts. Other than funny stuff, I try not to talk about him too specifically, and I’m careful about certain aspects. He’s always handled me fairly carefully, in one sense…but in another sense, he is…not mild. He can be chilling.

            However, the good news is after trying to wrangle him into therapy (he has gone) — which is an ill-advised thing for a former IPPS to do, I know — I’ve got a very solid NC. My work areas are places he has shown up, but he has to really inconvenience himself, and he just doesn’t have time to keep doing it. I have a gut feeling he may show up one more time, but I feel next year I will be back to not hearing from him at all.

            And THAT will be it. If I get away with this without anything too awful happening to me, I’m assuming the Angels aligned and am never pushing my luck again.🤗

          29. CIF…….It is NEVER IT!!!!!!! Sorry….HG hacked my head and forced me to typed that!!!

          30. Kim,
            What?? 😂 Are you saying it’s never truly over, as in Hoovers? If so, yes, I do get that part…I just mean the whole “sitting down and talking to me” thing will be over. He doesn’t even want to talk to me anyway — I’ve already talked to him. There’s nothing left to say! He just wants to see my reaction, for fuel. At some point, these people give up and move on — they have to. The only reason he’s pursuing this — this way — is because I’m a former IPPS, and he’s used to the pattern. Time is on my side. I think. (Pretty sure — as long as he doesn’t get super mad, and I’ve really ensured I’ve not done anything to provoke/did not wound, best I can tell).

          31. Caroline darling……..I am saying the chance of a hoover never over. As the days (all 3 of them) have gone on since I have started NC again, I have gonna gone from I am going to unblock him….to DONT YOU DARE!!!!!! So far dont you dare is winning.
            I really do hope I do not…if I ever do…get hoovered again because it really messes with me Let me be NC for at least 4 months……..
            OK…enough BS talk
            I saw where you replied somewhere else that you do not believe in the forever N versus E relationship. I f you believe that hoovers can happen anytime…then the relationship must still be there. You are correct not the sit down and chat relationship but the N versus E relationship that HG talks about.
            Of course he wants to talk to you…forever. FUEL baby.
            Have a great weekend

          32. Kim,
            I understand your point. I understand HG’s. 😉 The way I think is good for who I am. It motivates me to be my own person & have increased inner strength when necessary. 🙌

            I’m so glad you did not unblock. Maybe try to think of things that motivate you to keep the block…it’d be unique to you, but maybe think about it.

            Realistically, you will be Hoovered…most especially so because he lives right by you! So, again, maybe give it some thought now — prep work — on how to think/be when that happens. Build your strength & get your mind ready, for it to affect you less. The best time to practice how you’ll react/build your defenses is when the narc is away.😎

            But for now, just succeed…at blocking out that which is no good for you: Him.

          33. CIF…….Gotta do what works for us or it doesnt work at all. Please don think I was trying to disagree with your point. I was just stating my point.
            Hoovers will come and go. At this pint in time I am just trying to keep calm so I dont unblock again. I think of something about him and then say…it doesnt matter. He is out of your life……
            Have a great weekend. I am going to spend some time hiking….rumming……(yes it says rumming not running lol)….eating. Just being happy
            Hope your weekend is great too. I will check in next week.
            Thanks Caroline Is Special!!! XXOO

          34. Kim,
            Nah, I didn’t take your comment negatively at all – was just trying to explain what makes me tick. Good for you~on your weekend activities~sounds really nice !😎 I’m organizing/packing up today, for another work trip…on the road again tomorrow.🚘

          35. Kim,
            Telling me “Over and out” makes you highly suspect, Missy.🕵️‍♀️

          36. CIF…….Highly suspect? OF?????
            It was a very high ET day and I just wanted to check in with you but not talk anything else. I did talk to SMH so please check up there.
            Wine is my friend tonight.

          37. CIF……I have just come to a realization. Going NC is kinda like the stages of grief. I have a yearning to read thru old text messages from the N which I have not wanted to do in forever. (I know HG…delete them) I read the new ones but have not back tracked in forever even when I wasn’t NC.
            SO I am guessing that my LT was stronger than I thought and my ego had me tied to my ET.
            You quit giving me your opinion and I miss it.

          38. Hey Kim,
            I’m really not giving you the frosty freeze treatment~I swear! 💙It’s just 2 things at play…first, I’m away & involved with something (work-related), where I have zero service at times…but we’re back in a vehicle traveling again now, so I’m back online for a bit.

            Second, I’m trying really hard to support you — but also not do anything that facilitates feeding your addiction…so that probably explains why I’ve been more quiet too. I’m trying to be as wise as I can be, *for* you.

            It’s likely because it’s a zany ride right now (poor roads), but can you explain again what you mean by you feel like your LT is stronger than you thought…and it’s more ego-driven? That’s good for us to talk about. 🙂

            I deleted every email (I don’t text) my nex-BF ever sent me…and it actually was not easy for me to do (which surprised me), so I do get it. But please try hard not to re-read them. However, a little funny that just sprang to mind…the last email I got from The King was: “I see you’re going for a power play, again…or whatever.”

            😂 That’s rich, Your Highness.

          39. CIF
            Soem times feeding my addiction to you really helps me to understand. It was something that you or SMH said to me that caused me to go NC. I need to be able to ask for maybe things to expect cuz that is how my mind works. I do not want you to tell me things either that might trigger you. The more information and examples of what to expect help me…they do not feed me.
            My LT statement means that I feel my LT was stronger than I thought it was but it was my ego (ET) that was over riding it. For ever talk I have had with myself for some time, I have always countered and ET thought with a LT one. But the ET one was what I went with because I knew that thought would cause a hoover and contact with him again.
            It has not been easy…I admit….been hell…but I am sticking to it. I have moved parking (I hate it)
            I hope if he decides to hoover me he waits about 6 years so my LT is strong…..LOL
            Thanks for answering. Have fun at work……

          40. Kim,
            I understand. I think it’s that with those on this site who seem to be struggling with addiction to the narc, I feel like the more we talk about what the narc says or does, there’s a danger of the empath to overanalyze everything about the narc — and then the narc is just uppermost in their mind. So that’s what I try not to be part of, but I know some aspects of talking about it can be very helpful and work toward NC. It can be a fine line. I actually like it when HG occasionally comes down from his lofty perch (lol) and will interject on how a question or certain talk can be a bad thing, for the empath.

            As for triggering me, I don’t think anything on this site (or anything anyone has ever said) ever has had that kind of impact for me, or I can’t recall it anyway…I’ve seen plenty of empaths mention being “triggered,” and I try to be aware of it, but I’m actually not sure I know what I would say that would do that, so maybe you can explain that to me, as it would help to know!

            I do remember being on a thread a ways back — one of the poll questions — and it was one of the rare times I mentioned (more descriptively) how my narc was with me in some aspect, and I remember exactly who it was who said they were getting triggered really bad and needed to take a break from the site for awhile…I felt so bad! I didn’t know for sure what they meant that triggered them, but I never brought that particular item up anywhere again!

          41. Caroline is fine
            I’ve never really understood what triggered meant either. I asked once early on but never really got an answer. I didn’t know if it meant caused a memory, made them want to go running for their meds, caused them to return to the narc, or perhaps all of the above. If it’s different things for different people then it’s hard to know If what we are discussing is causing it. Trying to avoid it would certainly limit conversation here. I’m sure that person was just being honest in how they can easily be triggered and providing the reason for their temporary absence and would not want you to feel censored or bad about it.

          42. I tend to have certain triggers that make me recall certain memories, crave Piano Boy immensely and thus will reach out to him.

          43. Hi, Gabrielle🌷

            I’ve found that after learning about what drives a narcissist, I’m just not very curious about all the particulars of a narc’s words or behaviors, because “all roads lead back to narcissism”…

            For those times I *have* tried to make sense of something my nex-BF has said/done, I have tried to catch myself and apply logic — at the fruitlessness of my quest to “understand.” It’s helped me a lot, so maybe my sharing this can help you, with this aspect. I can’t see this entire thread right now, but I think it’s a thread where I mentioned the context of the last email the narcissist sent me, so I’ll use that as an example, regarding overanalyzing PB…

            So my nex-BF sent me an email that said: “I see you’re going for a power play, again…or whatever.”

            That message made no sense to me. I’m NC, but he can send an email that makes its way to me through an old account, which I can’t delete, & I sometimes don’t recognize the sender (aren’t narcs fun?). Anyway, I thought: “What? What’s this even about?”

            So my mind wanders to the last conversation we had, before I went NC…and I also thought about how I hid out when he turned up at one of my work places recently…I start thinking about all this, because I like things to make sense, ya know!…but then…


            The possibilities of that message were endless, including the following (but truly limitless):
            -He’s ticked he couldn’t find me at work — assumes it was on purpose (it was) — & reacted.
            -He made up the email out of nothingness to see if I’d contact him.
            -He made up the email to make it seem like he meant it for someone else (reason unknown).
            -The message IS for someone else — and he just hit the wrong email address.

            I could write a list a yard long on the possibilities…

            But I hate wasting my time on the pointless! It doesn’t matter. There is no point in trying to analyze a narcissist, because they have their own rulebook, so it would just be guessing *what* game and *what* rules…why bother? In my case, why bother because I’m trying to get him off me, while avoiding receiving anything malign. In your case, why bother because even if you hit upon the “right reason” for a narc’s behavior, he will later change it up to some other reality or flip the script the next go-around. One thing about you overanalyzing him that is for darn sure…

            It won’t help you handle him better — or feel better (for long) — or get your needs met better…they don’t want to be handled, nor understood. They aren’t looking to resolve issues or make you feel more secure. They want to get their way…and their fuel. Everything else is connected to that, like the screwiest “disorg chart” you’d ever see.

            So that means you can analyze him on all his particulars until the cows (moo!🐄 )come home…it won’t help you accomplish anything.

            In a sense, they have no baseline for you to build off of, to improve upon or stabilize your relationship dynamic…so how will your over-analysis of him be effective?

          44. Caroline is fine I love your advice. Everything you said is true. 💕

            What you said made me remember a lot of things about my mom and sister. They seem to get fuel in the same instinctive way that we get water from the fridge when we are thirsty. When we get water, we don’t think, “I am thirsty, I’m going to get water. I’m going to walk to the kitchen and get a glass and push it against the water dispenser and drink it.” We just do it instinctively without thought. Both my mom and sister did what you described your narc ex did to you through email. The driving force for them to say those things is instinct and not logic. You are right, he is angry that he’s losing his grip on you so he sent you this email that doesn’t make any sense which could have had you responding, “What do you mean?” Hence the fuel starts to flow out of the dispenser. My sister did this to me when I started avoiding her. I ignored the email and then she emailed me again saying it wasn’t meant to be sent to me, she made a mistake. I still didn’t respond. I didn’t care. I already made a decision and sticking by it.

          45. MP,
            I love your water example!
            Thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. The more these narc behaviors are broken down to basics, the less “mystique” there is to it. It’s a disorder, so I always think of it as such. I feel bad that there are people who have this disorder, but I also don’t want others (myself included) to suffer harm by extension.

            I hope you don’t mind me asking how you are doing, after your mother’s death. If it is too personal or too much for you to speak of, I completely understand…I just want you to know I’m thinking of you and wishing you peace.💛

          46. Thank you Caroline is fine. I’m doing so much better now, thank you for thinking of me. It was much harder when I was in my home country because everywhere I went, I was reminded of her and my life with her. I also stayed alone in her apartment after she died to clean it up and figure out which stuff I wanted to keep and give away. I was also not with my family and I was missing them especially my little kids. I didn’t take the kids with me because my mom had tuberculosis and we didn’t want to risk the kids catching the bacteria. She wasn’t supposed to be contagious if she was taking her medication like she was supposed to but even when I was there I caught her skipping her meds and getting upset when I urged her to take them. I actually had a very weird mix of emotions. When I was taking care of her before she died I was not as affectionate with her as I was with my dad when I took care of him before he died. I was totally like an empath to my dad and he was telling everybody how lucky he was to have me and how wonderful and loving I was to him. With my mom, I was behaved like a hired caregiver. There were times that she tried to have conversations with me and my answers were very short and polite but not loving. I didn’t hug her like I did with my dad. All that I did was clean her apartment, cook for her, buy food for her, help her with showers etc. but I was very guarded. The only emotional moment was when she asked me to put oil on her hair, brush her hair and put it on a bun. I felt good and remembered when I was a child and she brushed my hair and put it on a ponytail. Other than that, I was not very loving towards her. But when she died I was much more overwhelmed with sorrow than I did with my dad’s death. My mom was the one who raised me and I never met my dad until one year before he died. Also, he was already 82 and has achieved so much in his life unlike my mom. With her death it was like a big part of me was gone forever. I was also really sad that I wasn’t able to make her life better because of her disorder. I felt really bad for her. I asked my husband if he had different feelings when his mom that he loved died compared to his abusive and alcoholic dad when he died. He said yes. I told him about my guilt and he said that I can’t blame myself for not being affectionate towards her before she died because she wasn’t affectionate towards me either and I can’t force to create a connection that didn’t exist just because she’s about to die. But aside from that I have always been ok. And I am so much better now that I am now seeing the situation much more clearly and I am able to accept what has happened for what it really was. Thank you Caroline, you’re so sweet to ask. ❤️

          47. MP,
            I got very teary reading your reply, as I understand all your feelings, and it deeply touched me…your mixed emotions, behaviors (caretaking) and post-reflections after her death are very real, honest and healthy.❤

            It was not your fault that you had a Mom with NPD, and I hope you can be at deep peace with yourself, knowing that you’ve done the best you can with it, while she raised you and into your adult life…and also caring for her in her last days…you were a dutiful daughter, and this was your very decent way of honoring her as your mother — NPD and all. I think it is actually just right how you handled it in such a genuine way, as there was no true way for you to connect in a bond emotionally with her, as there never has been; as a loving Empath, you naturally always wanted there to be…but it is just not possible, which you know. So being appropriately guarded kept it very decent, in that there was no big drama and last-days turmoil that would linger in your mind, and you also granted your mother that form of dignity too…so please know that you did a very fine job, and it was as peaceful and loving as it could be.

            I’m here for you, if you ever need to talk about any of it again, as death is such a process to go through. I loved your reflections about fixing her hair, as she did yours, in your younger days…it’s okay to hold that good memory of a caretaking duty of hers. In a way, it brings it all full circle.

            You’re more healthy for understanding all that the relationship was with your mother…yet your heart is still warm and open today. Well done, sweetheart.💖

          48. Thank you so much Caroline. ❤️❤️❤️ You moved me to tears. You are such a good and kind person. Thank you for your kindness. ❤️❤️❤️

          49. MP,
            Aww, thank you for your sweet words~and you are so welcome. 💗Since we’ve both had our tears today (though not the bad kind), let me know if you need a laugh — at what a sitcom my early morning hours were… I had such a goofy start to the day! I swear it’s because of my hair (Yep, my hair). My hair is a medium chestnut brown color, so it always has *some* golden-blondish strands in it…but during the sunny, summertime months, the golden part comes out more…and I swear that makes me more Lucy Ball-like (To be clear, I’m not saying people who have blonde hair are ditzy — I’m saying that *I* seem to get that way, when the “golden” in my hair amps up).

            I got both your thank-you posts to me~so it was double the sweetness.😘 I get that error message on the site at times too…then sometimes my comment will go through later – and sometimes not at all. Technology can be so screwy. 🥴

          50. Thank you Caroline is fine, I’m always game for a laugh! That’s a pretty hair color by the way. I think that could be what my daughter’s hair will turn to someday. Right now she seems to have blonde hair which gets really light with the sun. But her strands look darker when wet and indoors. That’s so cute that you literally have blonde moments. 😊

          51. MP,
            If your daughter has light-to-medium chestnut brown, she’ll practically get 2 different (seasonal) colors out of it, which is pretty fun. 🎉 (My eyes look totally green, but there’s a teeny-tiny ring of gold in them too, so I’m always rather color-coordinated. 😂). Ok, so here was my Lucy Ball (yesterday) morning…Get ready to point & laugh, as is entirely appropriate…

            I woke up really early & while getting ready for work, I thought it’d be nice to light my fav candle (Goose Creek “Mermaid Kisses”/Yes, it IS funny that I’m an Empath & have that name of a candle)…I shower & get ready, putting a small spritz of a fav perfume on my wrists/behind my ears (“My Happy: Cocoa & Cashmere”), before heading out to the kitchen, to cut up strawberries & pop half an “Everything” bagel in the toaster…In the meantime, I go back to the bathroom to finish drying/fixing my hair…and then I realize I’ve put WAY too perfume on, even though it’s a very subtle, plum-musky scent –but I can literally smell it everywhere…why?? Did I accidentally spray it on my clothes? Is there a leak in the perfume bottle? I check – nope. Weird. I stand there, lost in thought as to why it seems like I took a bath in the perfume, when I only put a few dabs on. Should I change my clothes? Oh, screw it – I don’t have time for this, so I finish getting ready & then head back to my bedroom to grab something for work, and I see the still-lit Goose Creek Candle. Well shoot, I need to blow that out! I do, and then I lean down and take a good whiff of it…then I smell my wrists. The two scents are remarkably similar…

            Hey, Nancy Drew! Wake up! You’ve been smelling the candle wafting through the house this entire time, not your perfume. 🤭Is my “absent-minded professor” gig over? No, not quite…

            As I head down the driveway to work, I realize that in all this perfume nonsense, I forgot to eat breakfast. I rush back in my house & discover my bagel got stuck in the toaster — and is totally black. Apparently, whether via candle or toaster, I’m determined to burn my house down…

            My hair should be much less “golden” by October. I’ll be a genius by then.😂

          52. LOL you’re too adorable Caroline is fine 😂💕. Thank you for the cute, funny and suspenseful story! Although you better make sure that all of your smoke alarms are all working and have new batteries during your golden hair season lol. I am slightly jealous because I am ditzy too but with my dark brown hair I don’t have any excuse.😂.

          53. MP,
            I’m sure you need no such excuse, with your “ditzy moments” being quite low in number, Chica.😉 I agree, with my smoke detectors…hello, wasn’t there enough smoke to trigger them, with my charcoal bagel slice?? 🥯There’s a working smoke detector in a hallway, right off the kitchen. But just like a narc, it did absolutely nothing to help me.😑

          54. Haha I was just teasing you about the smoke detector. I’m sure you caught it pretty soon. Haha I wish my ditziness is indeed rare. I daydream a lot so my mind can get sidetracked. 🤪. Anyway, because of your cute and funny story, my house is now ready for fall. First you got me inspired to shop for fall scented candles. Then the candles got me inspired to buy a fall wreath for the door. Then the wreath got me inspired to change our curtains to the fall themed one. We have curtains for every seasons. Then I thought why not get all of our fall decorations out now just to make everything look complete? So now our house looks very fall even though we still have a few days of summer lol. This weekend I want to take the kids to Apple Hill if possible with my husband’s schedule. I love fall season. ☺️

          55. MP,
            Oh my, through you, I’ve been so very seasonally productive! 🤗 I feel the same way about fall~the most beautiful season of all! I have a lovely, leafy/berry-filled new wreath I can’t wait to put on the front door…a variety of new jar candles to put out…and pretty autumn placemats for the kitchen table (one of my aunties is an amazing seamstress, and she’s sewn me gorgeous placemats for every season).

            Goodbye summer, hello fall!🏉👢🎃🌻🍃🍂🍁

          56. MP,
            I just realized that rhymes (ha), reminding me of the very nice prof/poet I dated…when we broke up, he said, “Well, I guess I’ll have more to write about.” I just looked at him…he said, “You know, because I’m a poet.” I said, “Oh, right…”

            Another “golden” moment for me?🤭 In my defense, I was dwelling on how AWFUL I felt. (Now that I think of it, *what* exactly was he going to write? Since I did the breaking up, it can’t be all sunsets&moonlight…I don’t think I’ll explore that. 🥺)

            Ok, time for me to say something related to narcissism…I was thinking yesterday about what an opportunity it is for empaths to learn/grow/heal from their pain/wounds from their narcissistic entanglement. I know narcissists are wired so differently, but I can’t imagine the burden of carrying around all these gnarly, unresolved matters that are just swept under the carpet all the time…I realize they (literally) don’t care…but it’s still quite sad to me that their inner pain is never dealt with, nor healed. In a way, in life, I feel like we grow the most from the hard, painful aspects. No, I don’t wish for (nor enjoy!) struggles, but I do think it’s often when we stretch and become “more,” not less, and we also gain confidence, when we get in there & don’t avoid the tough stuff…KWIM?


          57. Aww, poor guy. But at least you gave him more material to write about. 🤷‍♀️ Are you sure that he wasn’t a narc though? The narc that I dated briefly had all kinds of poems written about his first love as if there’s no other woman that holds a candle to her. Now I think it’s just his way of triangulating women to try harder. He used to send me little cryptic poems that I couldn’t understand in the middle of the night, around 2-3 am everyday. When I asked him what they mean he told me that I will find out someday. I remember my body clock adjusting to his texts where I automatically wake up in the middle of the night to wait for his text. I’m glad I got out of that one before I got too involved. I feel a sense of gratitude towards him though because he gave me those fancy dates that only the very wealthy people in my country get to experience. But now I know if the ensnarement got longer I would feel differently. I think he was grooming me to be his DLS. He was inviting me to go out of the country with him before I told him that I got my US citizenship and will be moving to the US in a month. I didn’t hear from him after that even though we have been online friends for years before I agreed to go out with him. I thought it was weird at that time, I remember being upset about it. Now I can understand and am thankful.

            I love your thoughts about narcissism and I agree with you. We have advantages and disadvantages compared to them. It seems that they are advantageous over us when we get disengaged and still fighting the pain while they are already happily dating someone new. Or when they can easily compartmentalize and put on a charming and kind facade to everyone after they have treated us horribly in private. And it seems like their lack of remorse or empathy gives them an advantage to move forward after a toxic and chaotic dynamic with us or other people while we walk around having a hard time trusting again and forgiving ourselves for our part in the dynamic. But if we remove our ET, we have a much bigger chance of having a fulfilling life than majority of them. They cannot change because their narcissism prevents them from seeing a need to change. We on the other hand learn and even if the past relationship is completely lost or burnt, we adjust our behaviors for other people that we encounter and relationships become better. With them, it’s always the same, the only thing that change or gets recycled is the people that put up with them.

          58. MP,🌻
            Yes, “recycling” their way along is a good way to put it…As for me, I want to keep growing – not do the same ol’/same ol’, so I do not envy the endless pattern sequences of a narcissist’s life. Again, it’s sad to me. I’m pretty sure the compassion I feel over them having a disorder can trip me up a tad at times (wraps into a guilt issue, at times), but it doesn’t trip me up enough yet to make me fall — I think I’ve now come to a pretty good balance…staying true to my compassionate heart — but being strong in/for myself (and logical), not to get tangled into any sort of narcissistic abuse again. It’s taken me time to find the balance. I never want the narc entanglement to embitter me, which I can’t say I’ve ever felt. I feel blessed for that.💖

            No, the prof poet was very much an Empath. I dated him for a year, and it was a wonderful, healthy relationship. He was so supportive of my living out all my experiences at college…so non-controlling and cool. He was honorable & ethical, yet also fun & easy-going. What he inferred about writing about me/us was said in a kind way, like he was trying to ease how bad he knew *I* felt, and he even gave me a little wink when he said it (however, I could tell he did mean he’d get a poem or two out of it, which I think is a pretty positive way to cope). So…he was great…and I hurt an Empath😭…worse: to go out with a narc! 😞 Well, we live…we learn…we try to make something good of those hard lessons.

          59. Hi Caroline is fine, I wrote a reply but the browser said that there was an error so I will write again to make sure that you will get my thank you. Thank you so much. Your words have moved me and I really am thankful for your words. You are so kind and understanding and I am grateful to receive your kindness. Thank you so much. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

          60. Caroline….

            “In a sense, they have no baseline for you to build off of, to improve upon or stabilize your relationship dynamic…so how will your over-analysis of him be effective?”

            Funny you should say this…Last time I talked to him I said “I feel like I am on eggshells, planning our conversations in advance so I know what to say. I even can predict what you will say”

            He said “I actually kind of like that….”


          61. Gabrielle🌷
            Yes, I guess he *would* like that~a rather controlled environment!😉 Mine was controlling as well, mainly as it pertained to my interactions with others and also coming through for him — he got very exacting. He always did want to feel he had the upper hand and would want to keep me off-balance. Some gut instinct in me would just ignore a lot of that…then he’d up-the-ante to a greater pain punishment level — and I’d tap out for awhile. It was nutty…especially how I kept “adapting” to it, like I could handle it. He “tried out” a lot of stuff on me. I think my attitude was a bit of a “Really? Is that your best?” I can be my own kind of fierce, which is good AND bad, when it comes to a narc entanglement.

            Really, I think our entire relationship was like a big game of chicken-challenge. Oh, Goody! I’ve not used the chicken 🐔 emoji yet! (Nobody cares, Caroline…😔)

          62. gabbanzobean. Welcome to KTN. You remind me of someone that used to call herself Fuel On The Shelf but you have I believe more strength than she had.
            If while you are here learning to find yourself again, you happen to run into her please, give her a hug a wink and tell her good bye. You got this❤️🎈❤️

          63. Thanks, NA…I agree with you – it’s a subjective experience for empaths, so it’s rather impossible to know. I did know the empath wasn’t personally upset with me – feeling what she felt, but it surprised me…it was ironic, because I was describing how something I *used* to feel was sweet/romantic that the narc did with me wasn’t actually romantic at all…it was just a big fuel-up for him. She came back on the site a few days later, so that was good.

            You’re right — we’d hardly say anything if we worried about “triggering” all the time!

          64. CIF, Triggering is very easy to unknowingly do. Just a mention of a name…remember me with W. Shakespeare?????……But you cant be worried about triggering someone. Their every day world triggers them. Shit the train station I have to walk thru every day triggers me. No way aroundit. But maybe…just maybe Miss Emoji Queen……something you say will be the tipping point for someone and the light bulb will come on.
            I have taken a break from the site just trying to forget about him. It had nothing to do with triggers. We are all different. Why is it one person can go NC 1 time and it sticks and some of us (who will go unnamed…LOL) it might take them 8 times.
            Hope trip is going well. I am out until Saturday. Later.

          65. Thanks, Kim💙…yeah, I remember my triggering you with Shakespeare — a fine example of not being able to anticipate what will trigger others.

            See ya around the place more this weekend~be good…I mean, to MY strict standard, not yours. Lol😉

          66. CIF……
            Wuz up? Same ole same ole here. Weekend was good. Lots for hiking, eating, drinking, laughing,……….
            You still behaving to my high standards? (LOL)

          67. Kim,
            You were drinking while hiking — and laughing while eating?😎 I’m totally behaving…and of course not to *your* standards!😂

            How are you doing, doll? In the horserace of life, is logical thinking nosing out emotional thinking?🏇🏇

          68. CIF……Nice to see you girl!!!!!
            LT is there slowly creeping up but ET is still in the front. Yesterday I unblocked and reblocked 4 times. BUT I guess the good thing is I stopped and he is still blocked.
            How about you? What you up to?

          69. Kim,
            That IS good going, that you re-blocked. I saw your first comment for this thread, that you got your “carpets cleaned,” and I was about to reply: “Is that a euphemism?” Then I saw HG’s comment to you on that, and I thought, “Oh no…I’m thinking like HG…that can’t be good!”😳😂🤔

            I’m going horseback riding later on today with friends — I can’t wait! In other news, fall is my fav season, but this is also my more guilt-ridden season, regarding the narc. There are many reasons for that, but as the air cools, leaves turn, football season begins…memories hit that *still* (I can’t believe it) induce sporadic feelings of guilt. It’s not nearly as bad as it used to be, but thoughts do still spring up that I’ve “abandoned” this man and am heartless for doing so…which is ET. I also have my areas to work on, doll.

            I’m super glad to see you’re here, expressing yourself & gaining support, having some laughs, etc. I saw your reply to SMH…yes, you are a woman who needs to keep busy on the weekends. I hope you come up with some fun things you can do! But always remember to counter each emotional thought with a logical one…say the logical thought out loud or write it down — it helps. I will too.💕

            💖💨🐎 ~Caroline

          70. Kim,
            I forgot to lead with the most important part: I am so glad you are sticking strong to your NC!🎉 You said the most important aspect, in a different comment…you are doing this for YOU. A healthy dose of self-love and self-protection is a very good thing. I believe it makes you even more loving & capable of giving back to others as well, because your reserves are not tapped dry by users/abusers.

            In large part, we become what we think of ourselves…and how we act because of it.💛💜💙💚❤

          71. Haha Kim so true!! Apparently once we enter their lives they own us forever! 😬

          72. MP,
            I reject that “owning forever” concept completely, and I’m truly not trying to be a brat about it to HG…I mean, yes, narcissists *believe* that, but that’s because they have a disorder…they can believe they live in a land of lollipops — it doesn’t make it reality. 🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭

            They can bug us forever though!😏 Yes, they can.

            But I get it’s a concept, to help us understand the narcissist’s driven mentality/behaviors in relation to how they view others, and I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that HG gives us. <fixed it…🤸‍♀️

          73. Caroline is fine, I totally agree with you. It is like what HG said about people having different perspectives and truths. In their mind they can believe that to be true but we don’t need to care about that. We do what is best for us and that means robust No Contact and GOSO. 😊

          74. Wow Caroline is fine, that is creepy that he shows up in your work area. That would freak me out and start getting me paranoid. I have never experienced such perseverance from a narc. Although I have never been in a formal relationship with any of them so maybe that is why. And also the last narc who tried to ensnare me was just a handyman and he seems to just be a lower MR so not very high energy and wouldn’t dare to do something where he could get in trouble. The highest echelon of narc that i attracted was when I was in my mid twenties and he was either an UMR or a middle Greater. It was just four really fancy dates though and I disengaged because I was moving to the US. He gave me silent treatment after I told him that I am moving to the US like he just threw away a toy. I’m glad that you are handling it all well with a balanced attitude and not letting it get you down or all paranoid. It almost looks like stalking but I may be a little off the deep end here. I hope that he will give up ASAP and that you will never have to worry about him showing up again. 💕

          75. Thank You, MP❣ Yeah, it’s…not fabulous. He’s always been big on showing up unexpectedly, even in the FR. There’s definitely an entitled feeling to it. It feels more like a control move than stalking, but I guess that’s because of how I look at it. Not gonna lie, it can make me feel rather unnerved, but I work hard on looking calm on the outside & like I’m unaffected — and then I actually start feeling confident too. This last time he couldn’t find me, hooray. 😎

          76. Caroline is fine, that is admirable that you can look calm and unaffected from his behavior. I hope that he will never find you again and finally give up lol. He is obviously obsessed with you but hopefully he will realize that he will never achieve anything and just move on. 🤞💕

          77. MP,
            Oh, a side note, and this was my fault in how I worded it…his soon-to-be-ex (at the time) was “calling down” to him because he was in their basement, and she was upstairs, in the kitchen. She wasn’t yelling at him, as in not said in anger. What I found funny was here he filed for divorce from her — yet she was still being considerate enough to ask if he wanted to eat some fish she was making…yet all he could see was that SHE chose fish, and didn’t consult him — it was *her* idea to have fish, not his. 🙄

          78. Ah thank you Caroline is fine for clarifying. It’s totally not your fault. I’m sure that you worded it perfectly. It’s just that English is my second language and sometimes I can have poor understanding of the nuances of sentences.
            Haha it was still funny though! We really could never win with narcissists! They will always find something wrong with us or what we do. You are right though that it really is a huge red flag. She was doing something nice to him and being magnanimous about the whole situation of their relationship and he was still belly aching that he didn’t choose fish (lack of control). It really is amazing that we can now see and understand all of this after our education here at Narcsite. 😊

          79. MP,
            You do great with English! 🤗No, I really was not clear. I didn’t explain it fully. I only said “yelled down” — yelled down to what?! A wishing well? Hades? 🤪

          80. Mommypino
            I know dogs have been to me. Taught me more about loyalty and companionship than people ever did. Animals in general but dogs more specifically are what let me know I was not dead inside as a kid.

          81. NarcAngel, I agree, dogs are amazingly beautiful animals. I have never seen any other animals in general exhibit such degree of devotion that dogs are capable of.

          82. MommyPino: Birds are mostly somatics. They feel that the feathers are always fluffier, and the sky is always bluer, and the seeds are always tastier, and the weather is always better, somewhere else.

          83. Haha PSE that’s a good point about birds. I haven’t thought of that. But they are so beautiful that we probably can’t blame them for being Somatic lol.

          84. Mommy Pino: And of course Birds admire themselves for being able to fly. Birds wonder what took mankind so long to be able to fly, and Birds wonder why do we have to depend upon a large, clumsy and loud machine to be able to do so. Then, tiring quickly of thinking, Birds lift their wings and fly so smoothly away. No check-ins. No removing their shoes. No tickets. No passports. No baggage.

          85. PSE, I think that you are right about birds being narcish. Where I live I see a lot of ugly turkey vultures devouring dead squirrels and deers. They make me think of Lessers. 😝

          86. MP,
            There are several birds that freak me out…Like evil Ostriches & Rheas…they frighten me.😱 Also, I was unfortunate enough to have to watch Hitchcock’s “The Birds” in junior high, and now even blackbirds are suspect!🙄

          87. Haha The Birds is one of the creepiest movies I have ever seen. Bodega Bay is in my bucket list of places to visit because of the movie and also because coastal towns are pretty. I haven’t seen that movie until I was 26 and it still scared the crap out of me. It was well done. Now that I think about it, birds always look creepy on films except when they are animated like in Rio and Happy Feet. Even the pigeons scene in Home Alone creeps me out. 😊

    1. Sorry I changed my name and picture so I could feel better about posting. So I have suspicions that my step mom is a narc (she certainly is something lol) and my dad does not stand up to her. So I’ll try to keep this simple. Once when I was young and I lost my job and started another immediately but needed to borrow a little money to pay the rent on time. My step mom convinced my dad that I could not handle life on my own and they paid to break my lease and forced me to move back in with them immediately. I begged them not to do this but I had no say in the matter. They also paid off my car. The entire time I lived with them she treated me like a burden. They sold or stole things I owned because I owed them. I ended up running to another relative to get away from them and basically had to start my life fresh and slowly got back on my feet. I vowed never to ask them for help again and stuck to it.

      Years later they were still harping about the money they lent me, and so when I finally found myself in a comfortable financial position I brought them the money in cash. My step mom refused to take it. It turned out she had been giving my step brother lots of money, and if I paid it back what I owed, it would mean he would also have to, so she turned down the money and generously absolved me of my debt. I told them both I never wanted to hear about the debt ever again and so far they have not brought it up. But to this day my step brother milks them for money.

      So that is one thing that came to mind when I read this. I know it’s not quite the same, as she never really seemed to show concern so much as disdain for me, but I thought I’d share. Thanks, HG for the excellent post.

      1. And I almost feel guilty now posting this, here I am complaining that my parents made me take their money when other have it so much worse. 🙁

        1. Fox
          Two things:
          1) you can type really well with paws and claws!
          Well done with your furry self!

          2) I appreciated your honesty in your comments.
          What you wrote is how you felt.

          You have nothing to feel guilty about.
          I understand that feeling, it’s part of working through the cognitive dissonance we have from our relationship with a N-parent.

          We’re so used to putting a gloss on their abuses, minimising the pain so that we can survive, gaslighting ourselves and believing their propaganda to survive, that acknowledging the truth feels painful and disloyal.
          We’ve been conditioned to expect spiteful retribution for disloyalty, so speaking the truth makes us feel very uncomfortable for a while.

          You have a right to say what happened.
          You have a right to speak the truth.
          We all understand, and we support you.

          1. Thanks Caroline. I know you are right and thank you for the support. There is so much more than just this one instance, this one just happened to change the course of my life. But I like to look on the bright side. I live far enough away now that I can keep a safe distance from the drama and I found so many genuine, loving people living here that I would call family. In some ways it feels like a blessing in disguise.

          2. Fox
            Thank you for your reply.
            You’re most welcome!
            I’m glad that you have some people that feel like family to you now. A blessing in disguise is always a good surprise.

  14. Excellent post HG!! This is beyond belief true.

    I have always thought that it’s weird when my MR sister always asked me if I’m ok as if she saw something in my face where I looked sad even though there was nothing bothering me at all and I was even having a good time. One time she got me so angry when my son was 6 months old and I took her to the mall so she can go shopping because she didn’t have a car. My son was in the stroller and he was having fun touching all of the clothing which happened to be women’s because we were shopping at the women’s section. She was commenting repeatedly how much my baby likes women’s clothes which I ignored. I was having a feeling that she was passive aggressively provoking me because she knew that I was religious and she was ignorant or judgmental about my faith so I just totally ignored her pettiness. On our way to my car she stopped walking and turned around me with a sad and worried face and told me, “I need you to promise me that if he turns out to be gay someday you will still love him.” I was so insulted and taken aback that all I could blurt out was, “How dare you.” I told her, “How dare you minimize my love for him. You have no idea how much I love him so please just shut up.” And she acted like she was shocked at me and she still said things trying to convince me that being gay isn’t bad but eventually stopped because I was quiet. It was not a pleasant drive home.

    My cousin had a funny story about my mom which she was laughing when she was telling us this story. She said that my mom visited her at her house and was so excited to give her a pair of earrings. My mom took it out of her purse and put it on her ear immediately. She was trying to stop my mom’s hands because her ears were not pierced but my mom insisted on pushing the earring post into her ear lobe as she was starting to scream and she finally stood up with her ear bleeding. She told my mom that she will just put the other earring someday. She said she was feeling guilty about refusing my mom’s gift but it was really painful so she had to wrestle with my mom to escape her earring attack.

      1. HG, this article describes my mom’s engulfing parenting to me to a tee. Is it possible that I have wrongly classified her as a Lower Lesser when she was actually a Middle Lesser? She was also helpful to her relatives in an overbearing way. She even built houses for my grandma and uncle with the money that my dad sent her for me. Would a Lower Lesser have that grandiosity?

          1. Thank you HG. I’ll think about it. Although she’s already dead so it probably doesn’t matter that much anymore. 🤷‍♀️

  15. OMG…I would lose my ever-loving mind if someone did this to me!!! This is smothering, condescending, controlling behavior to the max. Wowser.

    I guess it’s no wonder this type has never wandered my way. My Mom says the first 3 (if broken) sentences I uttered were: “I do it. You not do it. Just I do.”

    What? It’s adorable…really.😂

      1. Thanks, Tappi.🥰 (And, pretty much, I’m the same today…this “charming” 🤔trait lives on. Oh joy?🤩)

        1. Joy for you Caroline, ultimately, that’s all that matters!

          In case my comment ‘good girl kimmy’ seems cryptic to some, it’s a catchphrase from a famous Australian comedy series, Kath and Kim. Many lines from it have slipped into Aussie slang.

          1. Tappi,
            Love that💚…I didn’t realize it was an Aussie saying~I just figured it was a “good girl” with a name thrown in, for good measure…I love that this site affords ways to learn neat things about countries other than our own, while we polish our narc education.😎 (Ironically, I was reading up on the Great Barrier Reef just last night🧜‍♀️).

      1. NA, love it😂…it proves the point that some aspects are just genetic. Then again, with me, maybe my little baby/toddler self had long been thinking: “This lady is starting to bother me.” Let’s go with personality + LEARNED behavior! 😂

  16. Yuck! I can’t imagine this behavior working very often. I have a woman at work that imposes this kind of stuff on me or used to do it more- it just irritates me and makes me distance myself from her. Very controlling right down to ordering something at lunch!! Even when I lightheartedly get after her for it, she doesn’t stop. And I particularly hate for someone like that to ask out of the blue if I’m ok when all I’m demonstrating is positive stuff, and then can’t even give me a reason why they’d ask.

    What’s funny is before I realized she’s a narcissist too, I had confided in her in great detail about the bosses narcissism. She wanted to hear everything, share secrets between just us. Some of it might be mirroring and so on, but she has opinions on her own about politics and people that I’m of like mind about. Narcs are normal people with a twist that veers off at the end, like something tastes great but has just an odd aftertaste at the end that stays with you.

      1. Too right E.B.
        My mum eloped with my dad at 17. Nanna was apparently hysterical that she ran off with him. Poor mum, she went from the frying pan into the fire. Mum was keen to leave the city they all lived in but dad wasn’t as keen and so it didn’t happen.

        Out of 5 children, there was one who also became an overwhelming angel. I cut her off a long time ago due to her interfering whilst I was divorcing my husband (not narc). 2 narcissists in total were created out of the 5.

  17. Dearest HG: Or, when they can not reach you, they have authorities breach your property for a Wellness Check, etc. After Which, you feel pressured to answer their messages, because you do not want the breach of your dwelling again via a Wellness Check. This is a way to imprison a person under the guise of concern. I once had a friend pull this on me more than once. I slowly was becoming her prisoner. With difficulty, I was able to end the friendship in a somewhat amiable fashion. I know from being on Narcsite that she is probably a lower victim narcissist. Her last boyfriend had a stroke and is institutionalized. Thankfully, she has a new boyfriend and she largely has no time for me, since I always am busy when I see her, and I say hello, but I never allow my feet to stop walking. I made my break a few years ago when she started lovebombing the new guy. I never reopened the door when she started coming back around after she had successfully ensnared him. It is possible that she wanted me to be her constant NIPPS, between her entanglements. Non intimate partner primary source, between entanglements, because we lived in the same apartment complex, and I did help her with various paperwork, her finances, etc, but I did not know about victim Narcissists. I believe she would be diagnosed with NPD, because she performs the Narcissistic classic cycle of lovemboming, devaluation and disengaging, and hoovering over and over. And she exhibits bouts of fury and hatred and the desire to smear and exact revenge.

    1. PSE
      “breach your property for a wellness check”

      You’ve just reminded me about my ex-neighbour mid-ranger N, who I was largely ignoring because she was… well, a N….

      My garage door was stuck open for a couple of weeks until I could get it assessed.
      One day two police officers came to check on me.
      I was astonished!
      They said “your gadage door is open, your neighbours haven’t seen you in a while and were concerned…”
      “Well clearly I’m not dead, so I’m sorry that they’ve wasted your time…”
      They asked me would I like them to go and speak to the neighbours, and of course I declined.
      The neighbours didn’t even mention it the next time we spoke which was some months later. It was obviously just a manipulative stunt on their part.

      More fake BS, just like my sister’s behaviour. They seemed to have many similarities.
      The official statement of the purpose of any given behaviour is always BS, and meaningless. It’s all provocation and for fuel.

      The police were both broad-shouldered and handsome, and spoke to me in a kind and protective manner, so it had an upside….

      1. Caroline: It is so crazy!!! Such behaviour could make one paralyzed and paranoid. I started answering all her messages, and I would tell her whenever I would be away. I had to report in, so to speak. It was awful. After such breaches one is afraid to go on vacation or leave home for awhile, worrying that a breach is going on inside ones dwelling And the authorities knock very loud and are suspicious of being blindsided when making a breach as well. They do not know if they are dealing with a psycho with a gun or something hiding inside. And, neighbors wonder what is going on and become suspicious of you when they peek and see some breach going on with some authorities at the front door your dwelling. Like maybe you are cooking up meth or doing something else illegal.

        1. PSE,
          Oh my…that’s the feel of a hostage situation. What really struck me with this fake angel category is that it’s just like a relentless stalker — but it’s “kill with kindness.”😳

        2. This is awful. I want to be put on the “Do Not Check on Wellness” list, if there is such a thing. And if there isn’t list, they should make one. If I’m dead, I’m dead. You’ll smell my rotting body eventually!

  18. HG, I attributed much of his behavior to rampant paranoia. The “war-torn Syria” reference is entirely apt. It’s just the freaking mall! He’s the same way with his child. Doesn’t want her out of his sight and if she is, he calls and FaceTimes. Like she is juicy bait and everybody that sees her will want to kidnap her. Is it paranoia that drives much of the manipulations you outline in this article?

Vent Your Spleen!

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