The Overwhelming Angel


The Overwhelming Angel appears as if heaven sent, arriving with apparent kindness, brimming with concern and bursting with cannot-do-enough-to-helpfulness.

The Overwhelming Angel is someone who appears to place you at the centre of their concerns, where they are always wanting to assist, that you have everything you need and I just wanted to make sure you are okay. No. are you really okay?

How might you spot The Overwhelming Angel? Here are many examples of The Overwhelming Angel in action. Remember, one or two of these instances is not determinative but if many of them resonate with you and/or form a pattern then there is cause for concern.

  • A telephone call or text first thing in the morning asking if you are okay when there is no reason to suppose that you are not okay. Particularly noteworthy if such a call or text comes after a similar call just as you went to sleep, so that all you have done in between the calls/messages is sleep.
  • Turning up when you are out with friends or family “on the off chance you needed something” or “just checking you are having a good time, as I was passing by.”
  • Repeated texting to ask “have you arrived okay?” when you are travelling somewhere. Particular noteworthy if you are travelling a short distance and/or travelling with a group.
  • Behaving like you are on a first date when you have been in a relationship for some time.
  • Turning up at your house very early in the morning when you have been on a night out, the night before with friends or family, either wanting to check that you had a good time or bringing you breakfast.
  • Insistence on accompanying you to medical appointments, especially ones which might involve a psychologist or therapist.
  • Appearing to be concerned about your diet but making decisions on your behalf “I didn’t buy any wine when I went shopping as I am worried that we (you) might be drinking too much.”, “Where are the Pringles? Oh I there them out, they are fattening.”
  • Providing unfounded warnings about individuals “You won’t have noticed this because you do not pick up on these things like I do, but Lisa´s husband Geoff pervs over you, so it might be a good idea if you do not got to Lisa´s tonight. I don’t want to cause any trouble, but I am just looking out for you.”
  • Commenting on your choice of clothing, “I think you look fantastic but do you really want to be wearing something that tight going into town, you know what some of the men can be like.” It is usually the case that the clothing is not especially tight either.
  • Overriding your transport choices “It will be easier if I drive you there, safer than getting a taxi or bus.” Particular noteworthy if you have already made a decision to use a form of transport and/or you are travelling with others.
  • Turning up to give you a lift home when you have not asked for one.
  • Making decisions for you concerting your health, “You sound a little bunged up to me, I think you have a cold coming on, I think it would be best if you stayed in tonight and let me look after you, okay?”
  • Appearing uninvited under the auspices of making you feel better when there is no problem to being with “Hi, I am on my way around to you with a care package because you sounded a little down earlier and it is my job to make sure you are happy, I will be there in 10 minutes, see you then.”
  • Limiting your opportunity to spend time with other people often done without consulting you “I told Bill and Jenny that you were feeling exhausted after a frantic week at work so I said we couldn’t make it tonight,” or “I rang your mum and said we would give this weekend a miss because you needed a rest.”
  • Increasingly frantic but apparently caring calls and messages if you have not responded, often laden with melodrama (“I have called three times and you have not answered, I am frantic with worry that something might have happened to you.” – you told the narcissist you are going next door for a glass of wine, not entered a war-torn part of Syria).

What distinguishes The Overwhelming Angel is that this type of narcissist may not rely on Pity Plays (“I am feeling down, why not stay with me tonight rather than going to the movies with your friends, please?”) or displays of Grandiosity (lots of gift buying, booking trips away, always paying) but it is all about this narcissists sole concern for your well-being, health and best interests.

The behaviour will be overly paternalistic demonstrating an “I know what is best for you” approach, you will be denied the ability to make decisions about your own life, where you go, what you do, who you see, what you choose to eat, wear, watch and so forth. Considerable subtlety will be demonstrated with the comments, they will generally lack force and manifest in ways such as “I am not saying you are overweight but you might want to cut down on the dining out for a while with people from work” or “You probably have not noticed but you have been rather tetchy as of late, you are running yourself down and you do not want to make yourself ill do you. I think it would be best if you have a weekend at home, yes?”

The Overwhelming Angel wants to ensure that you are isolated from anything which enables you to assert who you are, detached and removed from anything that defines you as a separate entity from the narcissist. The Overwhelming Angel like any narcissist sees you as an extension of him or herself and in this instance the extension is based upon an overriding desire to look after you.

Let’s revisit the behaviours above and decipher them further.

  • A telephone call or text first thing in the morning asking if you are okay when there is no reason to suppose that you are not okay. Particularly noteworthy if such a call or text comes after a similar call just as you went to sleep, so that all you have done in between the calls/messages is sleep. (Lack of boundary recognition by invading and regulating your time before sleep and time on waking (possibly being woken by the “caring call”. Sense of entitlement. The narcissist wants to make sure you are alone.)
  • Turning up when you are out with friends or family “on the off chance you needed something” or “just checking you are having a good time, as I was passing by.” (Lack of boundary recognition, sense of entitlement and wanting to ascertain who you are with to gauge any potential threats.)
  • Repeated texting to ask “have you arrived okay?” when you are travelling somewhere. Particular noteworthy if you are travelling a short distance and/or travelling with a group. (Keeping tabs on your movement)
  • Behaving like you are on a first date when you have been in a relationship for some time. (Extension of love bombing and lack of awareness as to how a normal, healthy relationship progresses because the narcissist has never been in one)
  • Turning up at your house very early in the morning when you have been on a night out, the night before with friends or family, either wanting to check that you had a good time or bringing you breakfast. (Wanting to see if someone else is there, facade of kindness, lack of boundary recognition by turning up very early when you have been on the razzle the night before and therefore wanting to sleep your hangover off)
  • Insistence on accompanying you to medical appointments, especially ones which might involve a psychologist or therapist, preventing you from attending medical appointments (where you have organised one to dispute the fact the narcissist says there is something wrong with you) or insisting you attend a medical appointment (just to check everything is okay when the narcissist has organised it)(Concern about outside interference, opportunity to contest the option of a medical expert which manifests grandiosity and haughtiness, opportunity to harness medical opinion to declare “told you so” under the banner of apparently caring)
  • Appearing to be concerned about your diet but making decisions on your behalf “I didn’t buy any wine when I went shopping as I am worried that we (you) might be drinking too much.”, “Where are the Pringles? Oh I threw them out, they are fattening.” (Belittlement, lack of boundary recognition,  acquisition of property)
  • Providing unfounded warnings about individuals “You won’t have noticed this because you do not pick up on these things like I do, but Lisa´s husband Geoff pervs over you, so it might be a good idea if you do not got to Lisa´s tonight. I don’t want to cause any trouble, but I am just looking out for you.” (Lies, Gaslighting, Smearing)
  • Commenting on your choice of clothing, “I think you look fantastic but do you really want to be wearing something that tight going into town, you know what some of the men can be like and you don’t want to end up a victim of something horrible happening.” It is usually the case that the clothing is not especially tight either. (Blameshifting, Insult)
  • Overriding your transport choices “It will be easier if I drive you there, safer than getting a taxi or bus.” Particular noteworthy if you have already made a decision to use a form of transport and/or you are travelling with others. (Lack of boundary recognition)
  • Turning up to give you a lift home when you have not asked for one. (Sense of entitlement)
  • Making decisions for you concerting your health, “You sound a little bunged up to me, I think you have a cold coming on, I think it would be best if you stayed in tonight and let me look after you, okay?” (Sense of entitlement, Isolating)
  • Appearing uninvited under the auspices of making you feel better when there is no problem to being with “Hi, I am on my way around to you with a care package because you sounded a little down earlier and it is my job to make sure you are happy, I will be there in 10 minutes, see you then.” (Sense of entitlement, lack of boundary recognition)
  • Limiting your opportunity to spend time with other people often done without consulting you “I told Bill and Jenny that you were feeling exhausted after a frantic week at work so I said we couldn’t make it tonight,” or “I rang your mum and said we would give this weekend a miss because you needed a rest.” (Isolating)
  • Increasingly frantic but apparently caring calls and messages if you have not responded, often laden with melodrama (“I have called three times and you have not answered, I am frantic with worry that something might have happened to you.” – you told the narcissist you are going next door for a glass of wine, not entered a war-torn part of Syria). (Lack of boundary recognition)

In all of these behaviours there will be facade management as the narcissist actually believes that he or she is a good, kind and caring person and cannot see that the various strands of narcissistic behaviour amount to two things. The gathering of fuel from you and of course control. Control over where you go, who you see, what you eat, where you dance, where you shop, who you spend time with and for how long.

Owing to the ensnarement that you have, either as IPPS, IPSS and also this can affect NISSs, your emotional thinking is likely to be high and therefore much of this behaviour goes unnoticed for what it is – control. Instead you are likely to think that this person is ever so sweet, very caring, sensitive, thoughtful and considerate. Even if you notice the red flags, your emotional thinking will seek to obscure it by making you feel guilty if you protest, reject or disagree with this behaviour.

This type of behaviour is seen most of all with Middle Mid Range Type A, Middle Mid Range Type B and Lower Mid Range Narcissists.. It is used the most by the Middle Mid Range Type A Narcissist.

If you make some kind of stand against the apparent kindness, thoughtfulness and considerate behaviour, you will experience behaviours such as these :-

  • Sulking (Present Silent Treatment)
  • Moving to Pity Plays (but not starting with them) (“I am only trying to look after you, there’s not need to be horrible.”)
  • Application of Guilt (“I do all of this for you and you still insist on going out in this weather as well and risk getting ill?”
  • Triangulation (“I wonder what your mother would think if she knew you were going out for the third time this week.”)
  • Belittlement (“Wearing that does you no favours at all and you will get unwelcome attention.”)
  • Character Assassination (“No wonder people say you are a slut when you dress like that. I wish you wouldn’t make it so easy for them.”)
  • Haughtiness (“Oh forget it, I am just trying to look after you, but you do what you want as usual, I’m sick of caring. Fuck you.”)
  • Absent Silent Treatment.
  • Threat (“You’d better stay here otherwise……”)
  • Digging Up The Past (“Look what happened last time you went against my advice, (insert once apparently buried one-off mishap)”)
  • Revision of History (“Last time you did this, you know what happened don’t you? (Insert adverse fabricated event).

The manipulation that is the false care and concern evidence by The Overwhelming Angel will shift to a different form of manipulation in order to assert control as a consequence of your stand which will either be wounding or more usually Challenge Fuel.

The Overwhelming Angel strives (instinctively) to overwhelm you.

You may be overwhelmed by this kindness.

That is precisely what the narcissism wants.

When you are overwhelmed, you are controlled.

382 thoughts on “The Overwhelming Angel

  1. Joa says:

    My dear mommy 😊

  2. JJJ says:

    HG, if a person exhibits only a few of these Overwhelming Angel behaviors, does that make her a narcissist? The person I’m thinking of does have empathy for others, so how can she be a narcissist? Or could it be false empathy used as a ruse to control people and kill them with kindness?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A few behaviours are indicators as opposed to being determinative. Ise the Narc Detector to remove any doubt, that is what it is there for.

  3. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, with the overwhelming angel type, would it be characteristic for these types to seek out things going wrong for you, even when they are not? Just, so that they can be there to pick up the pieces?

    I know all Ns get a sensation of power from things going wrong for others as they inherently believe the world is a terrible place. But there appears to me to be an extra layer attached to this for the overwhelming angel.

    e.g. If I’d been promoted, well then I must not have been happy with my previous job? what? if I decided to pull out of a house sale because something was not right with it and I’d found a better one, well I must have been disappointed about that etc etc

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, it is in effect imposing the narcissist´s reasoning instead of your own. Using your example of the promotion.

      You : “I have secured a promotion.”
      The Unconscious Narcissism : This appliance has secured a promotion, this has nothing to do with us, their success was achieved without us, our sense of control is now threatened by this success. Immediate action required to regain control, utilise a malign manipulation because this individual is in challenge mode. Use Triangulation and Diminution. Go!
      The Narcissist : “Have you? I guess that was because you were miserable in your existing job, I would have been too if I was doing that.”
      You : “What? No, I have a promotion.I wanted the promotion. ” Fuel, but challenge fuel.
      The Unconscious Narcissism – She has responded to the manipulation, therefore control is coming our way, but more needs to be done. Use Condescending Manner.
      The Narcissist : “Oh you say that but I know you better than you know yourself and I could tell you just were not happy with your other role, it was written all over your face.”
      You : “What are you talking about?” Challenge Fuel
      The UN : More fuel but still being challenged. Use Revision of History and Undermining.
      The Narcissist : “You were always saying how unhappy you were in the last role, every night you would come home and moan about it. Still, even though it is more of a sideways move, at least you are away from that dreadful job, so that’s good isn’t it?”
      You (bewildered but wanting it stop) “Er, yes, yes it is.” Pure Positive Fuel
      The UN : Appliance has provided fuel and agreed. Control obtained.

      1. Absolutely fucking mental! But such pinpoint accuracy.

        Thank you so very much HG for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.

        1. Kim e says:

          The entire time I am reading this all I can picture is 2 magpies going back and forth
          Absolutely absurd🤣🤣
          But yes HG. It was a great explanation 🌹

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Naturally and thank you.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahaha cheers Kim e

      2. Extremely grateful!

      3. FYC says:

        “Yes, it is in effect imposing the narcissist´s reasoning instead of your own. ” And the paragraphs that followed on unconscious narcissism.

        HG, That was a jewel of insight. No wonder we Es are not always aware when we threaten control or wound. That answered some questions for me. Thank you!

        So glad you asked the question, Alexis.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. Victims make errors and are confused for two very common reasons, they are honest mistakes and understandable ones.

          1. Not having had access to expert information about narcissism before utilising my work. There is a lot of rubbish out there, which either misses parts out, propagates myths and peddles dangerous information.
          2. The imposition of your world view on our world view. You think we see what you see. We do not.

      4. A383 says:


        Your insight is just amazing.

        Thank you for sharing it with us.


        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      5. I’ve been giving this a little more thought HG. so in effect, the UN is actually rewriting MY history, just so that the N can cope with the fact that I am happy with the outcome of whatever change has occurred in my life. Even though my ‘mood’ was continuous and did not change, i.e. I was happy then and continue to be happy now, the UN has to rewrite MY fucking history so that the N can feel as though they have control over their own shitty little world even though their world and my world do not collide and it makes no fucking difference to them whether I’m happy or sad. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

        Right I’m off to plant them in a field of isolation where they’re unable to overwhelm anyone and their creature will surely get them!

        1. Lorelei says:

          Is someone being a pain to you Alexis? An angel type being condescending? I enjoy this example but hope someone really isn’t frustrating you. I will say though that the angels can kick ass. My washer broke once and my Angel neighbor did all of my laundry and delivered it fresh to my house. She’s a snake in the grass bitch. She’s selfish and lives with a man and takes all of his money despite his children needing it. She’s pathetic. She’s so bad the school system had to devise a plan to manage her behavior. When the overwhelming angel illustration took shape by HG’s description there she was. My confusion was answered.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            ugh only pantman! It was during a conference with others present, where he was saying, “Oh I expect you hate not being able to go to the gym at the moment”, I countered it by saying how else I was working out. So he came back with something else, as did I. Towards the end of the conference he said in front of everyone, “I’ve bought gym clothes so we can go to the gym once a month after lockdown” erm no we fucking can’t. My response was just hmm. And he said, “are you depressed”. Like ewww fuck off you little swamp creature. I just ignored him and made sure I called everyone else for a personal chat afterwards just to have a jolly. But it made me think of other conversations I’d had with him in the past, where he is always looking for people’s downfall so that he can be the hero.

            But yes, you’re right they can be great to have by your side. These types (the female variety) have always been drawn to me and I used to be quite happy to be friends with them too. I still do, but I keep them at arms length. It’s just him! I’ve only ever had one other person when I was a teenager that managed to get under my skin as much as he does.
            You’re spot on! I recall the first time I read this article and it was – boom! in your face explaining these types.

      6. jasmin says:

        I found this response very helpful! 💯
        Been in similar situation uncountable number of times.

    2. Narc noob says:

      Thank you As2016 for asking that question, something I have thought about especially in terms of life coaches/personal development courses I have done. They can sieve through and try to create issues. Or when that doesn’t work, they quote stats making out that *most* have an issue in a certain area, so there must be something you aren’t letting on.

      On a side note, may I ask what your partners take on how you have implemented NC has been, and if you have needed to avoid anyone in his circle of friends/family?

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks NN, yes of course. The N I was involved with 7 or 8 years ago now, I was an IPSS. He was ffom a completely separate part of my life. Not sure how much you’ve read of my story so I won’t bore you with all the detail. My husband would never have found out. But the guilt inside me was immense. I simply couldn’t live like that any longer so I told him everything. He was I incredibly hurt. I offered him everything, the house etc. But he was and still is amazing! From the entire situation, this is the one thing I don’t like to think about. The rest of it, no problem.
        That said, thank you for asking it’s something I need to recognise and be accountable for this. I guess this in part is represented by the smoking nun hahah I can be both very good and very bad lol

        How about you? Are you IPPS or IPSS? What does your current partner think?

        1. Narc noob says:

          As2016, I appreciate your response. I saw you on another thread and also posted there. I’m not stalking you 😉 apologies for anything said twice over.

          I don’t think I understand why you don’t feel accountable, even after you have told your partner about your role as IPSS? Forgiving yourself is probably what you are more likely referring to, perhaps?

          As for me I think I was candidate DLS. My partner thinks I’ve gone over the top and overreacted. I still feel the same, but slowly working through things.

          1. lol I don’t think you’re stalking me at all. No problem for asking twice over, I have a terrible memory so may forget I’ve already answered it hahah

            I’m confused about how I feel in terms of the impact I had on my husband. On the one hand I recognise I was tricked into it on the other my husband did nothing at all to deserve it. So yes I feel pretty shitty and I avoid thinking about it now.

            It’s understandable your partner thinks you’ve gone over the top. You haven’t by the way. It’s just truth seeking and a core part of many of us.

        2. Narc noob says:

          AS2016, I haven’t heard your story, not yet. By the way, you aren’t a bore! Ha ha, how can a naughty nun be boring.

  4. wildviolet22 says:

    HG- can a person be codependent, and an overwhelming angel, simultaneously?

    It seems to me that victim narc and overwhelming angel is a common pairing. People assume codependency (especially when the narc has alcoholism/ substance abuse), but what you are saying in your articles, that there are different type of empaths, and anyone can be ensnared due to emotional thinking (and not always codependency, as if often assumed), makes a lot more sense to me. This overwhelming angel type is one that seems to come up often, and doesn’t seem particularly empathetic to me.

    For example, after reading this, I’m thinking the harsh type of person on forums, that takes on the “adult” voice and talks to people like they are children, and gets very personal, under the guise of “tough love” and “helping” (usually at the same time, painting the victim narcissist they are with black, and endlesssly rescuing, but staying in the relationship), might actually be an overwhelming angel?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello WV22. No, the OA is a narcissist and therefore cannot be a codependent also as the CD is an empath.

      1. wildviolet22 says:

        Makes sense, and clears some things up for me. Thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  5. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

    OH!! My mother does a LOT of these things.

    She teams it with criticism though, and comparing me to other people, and insults, hypocrisy, and general other types of controlling behaviour but all with the pretence of being super caring.

    I think she really believes that she actually is super caring. She’s definitely not aware of her narcissistic tendencies.

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      1) Does she give you silent treatments?
      2) Do you get a sense she can/does feel genuine empathy at times? (not empathy for “show” or only because it affects her personally)

      1. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

        1) Yes. When I’m not agreeing with her she goes silent on messages for a few days. When I was a child she used to go and shut herself in the bathroom and lock the door in order to dish out the silent treatment.

        2) I don’t know. I used to think she was genuinely capable of empathy but then again I’m an only child, and I was raised just by her, not my dad, so she was basically my world. To believe that your mother is not capable of empathy is a hard pill to swallow.

        As an adult now though I’ve seen more evidence to suggest that her empathy is for show. I nearly died giving birth to my second child due to complications. My mother and husband were in the room at the time, and the midwife told my husband to hold my hand as “you could lose them both” (he told me afterwards that was said. I wasn’t aware at the time.) My mother meanwhile just calmly continued to read her newspaper, and claimed later she didn’t know things were serious, which is a ridiculous statement to make as there was a team of about 12 doctors and midwives who had rushed in.

        When my son (same child as in the above situation actually! Unlucky kid! Totally unrelated scenario though,) nearly died a couple of years ago, my mother rushed around weeping, wailing, and lamenting, throwing holy water all over his hospital bed and dragging the priest in to see him and making so much of a raucous fuss that we had to ask her to leave as she was upsetting us more.
        Then she made a big fuss about how she clearly loved him more than we did, and how we didn’t appreciate what she was doing for him.
        It was more about her than it was our son!

        So I’m starting to think any empathy is just put on… however I love her anyway because, ya know, I just do. Despite the fact that she drives me wappy.

        I can’t really apply the No Contact rule in her case.
        I could if ex-narc-IP showed his face again, but to my mother, no, because she’s my mother I just have to put up with her nonsense.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Oh my goodness, with the birth of your son. I got tears, imagining how your husband felt during what was supposed to be a most joyful time for you both…but here you are today, so the spirit is mighty in you! I’m so glad your son is okay too…he must have Mom’s fighting spirit. 😊 As for your own Mom’s behavior during that, the drama is strong in that one, yes?…sounds like she could have given Shirley MacLaine a run for her money in the “Terms of Endearment” hospital scene…wowser, lady. 😉

          I understand completely that you love your Mom, despite her wacky ways/hurtful behaviors. Loving people love, and that’s to your credit as a human being. ❤ It’s good that you’re also aware that she looks suspiciously narcissistic, as that will help you with setting boundaries & thinking of it in a way where you’re not over-expecting from her, nor putting unrealistic pressure (or blame) on yourself. I’m thinking you push the “IGNORE” button a lot.

          My Mom doesn’t have NPD, but she’s highly narcissistic in ways, so I understand how hard it is to even SEE certain attitudes/behaviors in your own Mom. I’ve never gotten a silent treatment from mine. COULD I get one…please, oh pretty please?😂 (Just kidding, Mommy…I think.🤔)

        2. Joa says:

          PolicyofTruth, Karolina,

          it was similar for me – but it was me and my sister who were locked – one in the bathroom, the other in the toilet. Sometimes in the dark. For 1-3 hours. Separated by a wall and a vent.
          I came up with a game of tapping on the wall and tapping out a melody together. And the other, tapping objects and guessing what I’m knocking on. First of all, to annoy my mother and mark my existence (sometimes I preferred to be spanked, at least faster). Secondly, to take care sister and not to she afraid (she still does not like to stay at home alone, she cannot be alone).

          I also considered my mother to be the best, most wonderful and most loved mother in the world. I blamed myself for my incomprehensible behavior.

          Amazingly, I continued to think so, even when she slapped me in the parking and called me a “bitch”, when I announced my final decision that I wasn’t going to have my baby removed. She directed the whole family against me, even the empaths succumbed to her twisted reasoning for a moment that it was for my good and my future (because “my N”, upon hearing about pregnancy, went into devaluation with disappearance and short good periods alternately).

          After the waters broke, I gave birth alone for 15 hours (the doctor showed up only at the end of the delivery) and without anesthetics, in a dingy hospital. I had to face a penalty. And yet I was happy then, I remember as wonderful moments when my heart was filled to the maximum with love, expectation and faith that everything would be fine.

          My mother was the first to come after the delivery to pick up her first-born granddaughter and take pictures. I forgave right away.

          Interestingly, I have always noticed that my mother’s empathy is somewhat different, as if weaker than mine and my sister. We explained to ourselves that it was because of the traumatic events she had experienced. After all, she devoted herself so much to us. I didn’t know that this empathy was just false.

          I protected my daughter from one narc., but I let another get close (my mother’s “beloved granddaughter” among all grandchildren, a special bond)… ☹

          Now I see it in all its glory. Everything proves it. Especially the current behavior, bizarre and embarrassing (I will describe them later). Before I gave my verdict, I tested. The result was unambiguous.

          Thank you HG. I came here because of “my N”, but you let me discover this sad truth and a few more.

  6. Emextraordinaire says:

    Showing up with a celebrity friend (just picked up from the airport) so she could freshen her face (unannounced), then asking me & my daughter to dinner… giving us a ten minute time frame to get ready… When moments before (while he was en route to pick her up at the airport) we were in a heated discussion on the phone about his inability to let me know about things before they happen. Oh I thought we had this planned… you knew this was the story. On and on… we all know

  7. deniseisdone says:

    Empath007 yes he kept it up for a year – every single day and night and throughout the day while at work. Yes I total enjoyed it and YES I did assume he cared. It’s very addictive! When my devaluation happened I did not know it! We were literally in mid conversation when it all ended – I believe he was married and lied to me about it! Nothing different b/w us – he just disappeared.

    My shame is overbearing b/c now I feel like a whore or a home wrecker – I keep thinking all he had to do was be truthful upfront and none of this would be happening.

    I blocked him from all avenues so I know I’m okay as he’s obviously a coward and wouldn’t dare come to my home.

    It took me a couple of months to get over NOT receiving his texts as they were always sweet and endearing as he was ALWAYS kind and sweet to me – he had strange habits I’d never seen in a person before and told him that but he’d just laugh it off.

    I try to find comfort in the fact that my devaluation was unnoticed by me as I’ve read some awful stories – trying to find good things to be thankful for – silly I know.

    My saving grace in all of this is HG – ironic given he’s a narc but it’s true. His work is always on on my phone and I always read his blog. He gave me back my inner strength and the knowledge he gives me daily is bringing HOPE back into my life so YES he is like my blessing. Silly again I know but it is what it is.

    Would you mind sharing your story? Was it extremely hard for you and did it take long for you to recover?

    You have a wonderful night and look forward to chatting with you again!!!

    1. empath007 says:

      HI Denise, I apologize I did not see this until now.

      I could tell instantly when I was being devalued, mine would easily switch gears sometimes within minutes.

      Ultimately I am the one who ended it (although you know that’s not his version of the events lol) but he can have his version I really don’t care about that anymore. I ended it because I got a confession out of him about who he truly was, he admitted it to me when I confronted him with the fact he was a narcissist. One and only time he was truly honest with me…. and boy did he regret that I’m sure (if he can even feel regret).

      Yes, recovery has been extremely hard. I have been No Contact for over a year now (15 months to be exact) and I STILL struggle daily with what happened and still think about him everyday. The only part I miss is the intimacy. We had what I believed to be a strong physical connection and I have not slept with anyone since, and its been difficult mostly in that regard. I do not miss HIM per-say… just the fake intimacy he offered. I am also still within a sphere of influence as we work for the same company (thankfully was able to transfer offices about 18 months ago) so while I do not work directly with him anymore, his friends still come to gather information on his behalf and I have had to avoid a lot of events to not run into him. I do however have to see him in a few months for a conference I can absolutely NOT avoid.

      For me I think having this Sphere of Influence open is definitely the biggest factor in me not being able to recover properly. When HG says to cut ourselves out to create true N/C there is a reason for all of that. HG is correct. I have been with my company for a while though, and I have a great deal of the narcissistic trait of pride and I absolutely did not want to be bullied out of my position. I want to leave on MY terms, no one else. I am now understanding this may not be possible…. as is the nature of the beast of being romantically involved at the office.

      I made the “mistake” (from my narcs POV) of A) getting a promotion when he was scheming to get me fired at work and B) Being the one to cut him out and go No Contact. On top of that I have not discussed what happened with anyone. C) Getting the confession out of him.

      So… needless to say from his perspective there is a massive score to be settled. I am starting to feel like I don’t need to be around anymore to put up with any of his BS… he can fight his battle alone because by the time he can actually get back at me I will have quit and dropped off the face of the earth… leaving no opportunity for him to “get me” …. This is if I can time it right… not sure if I can pull it off but I will sure try… luckily to HG I am on to him. Hopefully this gives me the leg up on him. But doubtful as I couldn’t keep up with his manipulations if I tried.

      Needless to say… I am still young and learning these lessons early in life… and lets sure hope this is my first and LAST narc I ever date… because I never want to go through something this dam dramatic again.

      Sorry that was so bloody long! I got on a role lol.

      have a great day!

  8. Chihuahuamum says:

    This had me thinking a lot of my grandmother. I think she mightve been this kind of narcissist. I hate saying it bc she did many acts of kindness and helped so many but there was always an underlying benefit and that was control. I love my grandmother very deeply but i am aware she had npd among other issues. This write up fits her very closely. She had taken a family member and nursed them which i have a ton of respect for but im not so sure it was solely for their benefit alone. I hope im wrong and if i am im ashamed to speculate this but i do think she enjoyed being in control of their health and being in charge.
    She was always the one in charge. The one who brought family together. The one who helped in the prison to keep inmates on the right path and the one who picked up the pieces when my mothers life fell apart. She was the one. Im thankful but i do wonder her motives if they stemmed from npd.
    She would always take charge and on several occasions would tell me what i was going to do and many of those times id say no this is what ive decided to do. She was relentless and eventually gave up and would say how stubborn i was then give me a silent treatment and make me feel guilty. A few times she got in my face and was aggressive but i held calm and didnt sway which really infuriated her. To be honest she scared me sometimes bc she could be loud and aggressive. She was always trying to be the one helping people but also taking charge of their lives for them.
    She did this with her sisters son during a rocky time in his life. Instead of letting her sister handle it and grow she stepped in and completely took over.
    I loved her dearly but im certain she had npd and altho she did help many i do think there were ulterior motives which i dont think she was even aware of herself.

  9. Mija says:

    I’m starting to read the blog. great analysis. only truth.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Welcome Mija, keep reading you will find much that will assist you.

      1. Denise says:

        I dated a MMR overwhelming angel for about 14 months and during that time I had around 8 flat tires. I am 30 years old and have only ever had 10 flat tires since turning 16 and 8 of the 10 were during the time I dated my ex. Hg, do you think my ex was causing these flat tires so he could “help” me?

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. empath007 says:

            Wild. That’s insane. Glad
            You escaped Denise!

  10. Anm says:

    Totally annoying behavior

  11. Lorelei says:

    HG—this type of person is not resonating with me as anyone I’ve encountered, however, the examples of behavior are valuable. Calling out the various manipulations so clearly in what before would have seemed fairly innocuous is a win for all of us. It’s a lot of my focus and I’m seeing so much more almost daily and putting puzzles together.

  12. deniseisdone says:

    MAKE SURE I AM ALONE and KEEPING TABS ON ME! CONTROL!!! EVERY morning and EVERY night he sent me a text – EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR A YEAR! Hell I thought it was because he “cared” – he made himself the first thing I thought of every morning and last thing every night!

    SPOT ON regarding the phone calls too! Again I thought it was because he “cared”! He even called me at lunchtime – “Did you eat?” “What was for lunch today – well you had Mexican 2 days ago”!!!

    HG I totally see the CONTROL he had now and I let him w/foolish, delusional emotional thinking.

    Oh my God…I was such a blind fool!!!!!! Hell I would have disengaged from me too!

  13. WAF Tudorita says:

    Unrelated-,I have Paul Bernardo pegged as a LMR or MMR and Karla Homolka as a MG – is that correct?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. WAF Tudorita says:

        Married serial killers here Canada

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for clarifying

      2. WAF Tudorita says:

        Pretty fascinating material HG, would love to see Karla Homolka under the Tudorscope alrhonits obv shes a narc – but it’s rare we see a greater female narc in everyday life . She was a vet assistant – and made her way to Canadian top serial killer history

        1. empath007 says:

          Were they working together as a team WAF?

          Apparently, when it is a team there is usually one who is the aggressor and the other is more of a follower…

          I will google that, that’s not common I’m sure to see a married couple at it together.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Oh the Bernardo/Holmolka dynamic is quite a story. Just a warning that it’s very dark and I know that you’ve been having difficulty with that lately so be prepared.

          2. empath007 says:

            Thank you NA. I appreciate that warning and will take your advice and wait to look it up at a later time.

          3. WAF Tudorita says:

            Paul was the Scarborough Rapist before he met Karla and continued to rape . She bought into it and would select the victims and prepare (get drugs from her vet clinic she worked at)
            She even sacrificed her youngest sister to him – got her drunk and drugged up not once but twice for him to rape. The second time the sister choked unconscious on vomit and DIED.
            They then kidnapped, raped, tortured and eventually killed two more teens.
            Karla got a mere 15 yr sentence bc she assisted in Paul’s conviction . She claimed battered wife syndrome.shes out now and has her own children .
            Paul is still in jail.
            Paul was I THINK, a mid ranger. Karla was defin a Greater. High IQ and able to play to the particular audience she was dealing with.
            It’s unknown who actually killed the girls they kidnapped, they both blame each other.
            He was more of a rapist- raped like 15 women and girls and then let them go after- so it’s suspected Karla was the one to introduce murder as to dispose of the evidence rather than let them go, and since more faking evidence of HER being waaaaay more involved came out AFTER her plea deal- she was never held accountable.
            They were known as the Ken and Barbie killers too bc they were good looking, blonde, late 20’s when it all went down.
            It’s a fascinating case .

          4. WAF Tudorita says:

            Sorry- edit- ^* more *damning* evidence of her being way more involved came out after her plea deal.

          5. MommyPino says:

            empath007, I apologize in advance because this is unrelated to this discussion but if you look up Karla Homolka’s pictures and look at her facial expressions, her eyes even when she’s smiling looks dead. Hers is worse than the other narcs that I am looking at but it’s pretty similar to my younger stepdaughter than I’m pegging as a middle Lesser or lower MR. But I agree with you that some narcissists are very expressive however when I see someone smile and the eyes are like that, I’m starting to see it as a red flag personally. My older SD is a middle MR and her eyes have more life and also because she modeled so she is used to posing but when you meet her in person her eyes tend to not have a lot of life and looks bored. It only starts to have energy when you flatter her with praises or when you give her challenge fuel.

        2. MommyPino says:

          WokeAF, That’s too bad that Karla now has kids. When someone commits crimes like that, part of the sentencing should be sterilization. Those kids will be abused.

  14. NarcAngel says:

    Wow. That was exhausting to read much less experience. The interpretations given were great for those who would feel guilt in thinking that they should not question such “kindness” lest they appear negative or ungrateful. Another excellent depiction HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you NA

    2. empath007 says:

      Totally! And that’s me NA. I would see it as kindness. So if my narc would have used this tactic he would have been far more successful…. guess his 3 years of studying me from a distance didn’t work out as well as he figured 🤣

      1. MommyPino says:

        empath007, my half sister was like this. I think that it’s ok if you don’t realize at first what they are doing but once you hear them tell you something like, “ I did this for you or after all that I did for you or would I do this for you or buy you this if I have contempt for you?” would be a signal to stop trusting them and start avoiding them. Also the difference with the help they give is that the help tend to disrespect boundaries and are pushed upon you even if you don’t need it and want it. They are more for control over you. So you can test them by refusing the help or gift and if you see them have a difficulty with your refusal and kept pushing it to you, that is a huge red flag. I did it to my sister and I kept refusing despite of her continuous effort to convince me so she still bought it without me knowing and on our way home she handed it to me. It is a huge red flag.

        1. empath007 says:

          Good advice! The normal I was in a long term relationship with was very passive aggressive and never helped me at all… so if the narc would have taken this approach I would have seen it as a total relief… but I can definitely see how that would unravel over time especially when the help comes at a very high cost (aka ones sanity)

          That’s good advice to test it. And I will keep that in mind when I feel ready to date again.

          1. MommyPino says:

            That’s a good point empath007. Normals are not perfect by all means and empaths aren’t as well. Sometimes we can be selfish or lazy as well and not take initiatives to help. So when we encounter a narc that is very ‘proactive’ at helping us or directing stuff, it can be nice but eventually it will get exhausting and suffocating. I think the difference between Normals and empaths vs narcissists is that if our help is refused, maybe we may feel a little rejection or embarrassment or maybe relief because we don’t have to do anything but at least we offered help and we are able to get over it and not push anymore. My mom would give people a hard time if they don’t take what she was giving them. She wouldn’t stop trying to convince. And it’s the same with my sister, she was personally offended by the refusal. She also got really offended when I never used the gift (that she forced upon me), constantly asking me if I already tried it and has that wounded look when I answered in a disinterested way that I haven’t.

  15. blackunicorn123 says:

    Good article!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you

      1. Ada Jimenez says:

        HG Tudor. If i did no know how much damages your kind can do….i will said that you are awesome and so much more, but i cannot. You are a great and wonderful teacher. You know your subject pretty well. Anyways, i m been reading you for months, so i know where i stand right now. Im discarded, in the middle of divorcing him and im pretty sure what he is. He have a new appliance(a friend of mine) and im ok. I just want to know how to kill one and for all this feeling of happiness when he calls me or touch me(casuals, hands shake., or hug).? How to stop playing his smile on my mind? And this feeling of want to allowed him to stay even though i know hus way and he is evil. Please, how?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello Ada, I know my subject very well.

          You need these

    2. Gab says:

      My mid range narcissist tried this approach after a discard. When he finally understood i am no longer avaible and interested in him as a man because I see him as a bad guy he tried to maintain his control over me as a parental figure “dont talk to that man”, “i want only good for you, do this, dont do that, i care for you”. Eventually I went no contact

  16. empath007 says:

    Very interesting. I think my narc used this approach with the only IPPS he ever had (the rest of us have been IPSSs)

    Sadly though… has he acted like this at the beginning… and contiuned it for quite some time.:. I probably would have responded extremly well to it and he would have been more successful. Over time it would have started to unravel but I’m ok with suffocating relationships a bit.

    So thanks for the new knowledge once again HG! I will be on the look out when I date again!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. deniseisdone says:

      Empath007 it felt heavenly to have all that at that time – now I feel totally foolish. 😖😖 I thought he cared!!!

      1. empath007 says:

        I would think the same thing. Not sure if it’s because I have co dependant tendencies? But I think this type of behaviour I would have had a harder Time figuring out.

        Is devaluation playing out the same as any other narc with the overwhelming angels HG?

      2. empath007 says:

        Was your devaluation more subtle Denise? Was your narc able to keep up this kind of act for a long time? I’m interested in the dynamic if you don’t mind sharing?

  17. E. B. says:

    This article is excellent. They are just like you describe them.

    They can be so subtle, especially at the beginning. They appear to be so sweet and caring and they hide their abuse by saying they are “soooo worried and concerned…”.

    They want to tell me how to live my life, what decisions to make although they cannot even cope with their own problems. I find them extremely intrusive. I feel uncomfortable in their presence. They exhaust me.

    When I reject their ‘well-meant help’ or ‘advice’, they punish me, even though I had never asked for it in the first place. They usually give me the ST and smear me to others.

    I was not aware that they wanted to overwhelm me.

    “When you are overwhelmed, you are controlled.”
    Now it makes sense.

    I appreciate all your new articles a lot, HG. You work really hard. They are full of valuable information to help us recognize narcissists better and faster than before! I have not seen this information anywhere else.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for the appreciation EB. I am here to educate.

  18. Dearest HG: May I request that you kindly make a Podcast on this type of Narcissist. This kind ensnares a lot of people, not just of an intimate nature. I was ensnared by one of this type for years. A female. Always bringing me delicious coffee in the mornings in the apartment complex where I lived. I slowly became ensnared and I did not know what was happening. She needed help with her money and paperwork and other matters, and did not trust other people, including her bank, which I loved doing for her with her thanks being my only appreciated reward. And I would constantly tell her this, But, she of course could not realize this and of course her narcissism felt the need to ensnare me/bind me, I understand from Narcsite. It was awful for me, HG. She was always looking out for me, and I would constantly tell her I am fine, and do not need help, or coffee or food or advice about mutual people that we know. I did not know what all of her odd actions were about. And the isolation from other people over time. I always knew she smeared, but finally someone told me that she smeared me all the time. I finally broke loose. Everything about this past friendship is crashing in on me, after this article, with great clarity now. Wow! Once, I thought that maybe she was a lesbian, and I am not one, but that did not pan out either in her behavior and so I wondered and I wondered, What Is This? How Do I Get Out Of This? This type, The Overwhelming Angel, is thriving under the radar in the Narcissism community discussions. I would have gladly helped her without her activity to ensnare. If only I had known what I was dealing with, I could have continued to help her and not have apprehension and trauma and drama brought about in my life because of the mystery of what exactly was going on with her, as she called me the best friend she ever had, while behind my back she isolated me from others in the apt. complex, and smeared me and wanted me to be destroyed before others, since she desired my help in financial matters,etc., and she hated that she could trust me, ironically, and she could not trust the men she ensnared, for whatever reasons. Please Expose!

    1. deniseisdone says:

      Definitely on Podcast please!!!! Such valuable information!!

  19. Shelf Fuel says:

    “The behaviour will be overly paternalistic demonstrating an “I know what is best for you” approach, you will be denied the ability to make decisions about your own life, where you go, what you do, who you see, what you choose to eat, wear, watch and so forth.”

    This sounds exactly like my ex-husband! AND my ex-mother in law’s relationship with my ex-husband! Good fucking grief.

    Of course I just labeled him as being “loving and overprotective”. Later on that sentiment changed to “he’s trying to control my life”. Never did I once stop and think he was a narc. None of the other boxes really ticked it off for me until I read this article.

    I am now divorced from him then…along came Piano Boy. Piano Boy never acted like that. But I was Shelf IPSS not IPPS. Now you have me wondering if THIS is how he is with IPPS! And why she is STILL WITH HIM even though she caught him cheating!

    I cannot believe after being here almost 2 years I have come the realization that I traded one pile of crap for another. I went from an overwhelming angel to an angel with a dirty face!

    I feel like there is no hope for me. I am just waiting for that third fucking whatever the fuck he is to come along and continue this trilogy of narc fuckery.

    I also spent the last hour crying over Piano Boy ignoring me and then I read this article. Thanks a lot HG. (said with sarcasm but also appreciation even though it is cloaked in sarcasm and a high emotional state of mind).

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      The fact that you now have another “missing piece” to the narcissistic world can be VERY hopeful…your epiphany brings increased awareness. It is in your power to take action (<there's where your hope lies), to protect yourself & steer clear of these types.❤

    2. WAF Tudorita says:

      It’s funny how it becomes obvious who the narcs in our past were. The biggest for me was the DUH! Moment that it hit my kids dad is one. I’ve known him for 24 years so the IDEA I had of who he is took a while to break down.
      It all becomes so obvious

  20. kaydiva3 says:

    HG, you are a super genius. You know narcs like no one else. I have had three narcissists in my life, all very different, and in your various works you perfectly describe every one of them. This article describes the man who stalked me for a year. It could literally be about him specifically. We were friends and he wanted more, but I wasn’t interested. He was set on proving to me that he was better than any other man, and he said “one day you will realize what I am worth”. He the did all of these things that I recognized as invasive and controlling. He insisted he was just loving me and I was being unreasonable. He said “you mistake caring for controlling.” I can feel my blood pressure rising as I write this. God I hate him so much (does hating someone mean I can’t be an empath?). He finally stopped when I got the police involved, so I really hope that’s the end of it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      Review your no contact regime to ensure it is as tight as possible, that is what reduces the risk of hoovers. Do not rely on hope.

  21. Caroline R says:

    Great article!
    Thank you!

    You gave me the creeped-out feeling and smothered feeling, and the low grade nausea that such people have provoked in me in the past.
    I couldn’t get away fast enough.

    If you want space, they leave 20 voicemail messages on your phone in one day.
    They buy you groceries and leave them on your doorstep.
    They take it on themselves to collect your mail when you’re away, despite the fact that you’ve made other arrangements.
    They try to lend you money, or pay for things “oh, you can pay me back later…”, to get you under financial obligation.
    They will ring places and make appointments on your behalf when they have no business doing so.

    They will go and talk to someone on your behalf without your knowledge or authorisation, totally misrepresenting themselves and your relationship/acquaintance.

    If you stay with them on holiday, you can never relax or sleep in, or do anything by yourself. They wake you up early, and plan your activities.
    You are obligated to fit in with their schedule.
    Your ‘holiday’ exhausts you, and you need a holiday by yourself to decompress from the strain of their company.

    If you’re single, they constantly try to push you and their bachelor son together, despite there being zero attraction between you.

    If you’re out at a work do, and you’re googling something, they’ll try to grab/commandeer your phone under the pretext of “helping” you “oh, you’re holding a drink, and your clutch…you can’t type as fast as I can…”

    It’s like being smothered by an octopus, and pulled down so that you drown.
    It feels like a drowning.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you convey apt descriptions.

      1. Caroline R says:

        I appreciate you saying so.

    2. E. B. says:

      Caroline R,
      Great list! Thank you for sharing.

      1. Caroline R says:

        Thank you!

  22. fox says:

    Yay, new post!

    This reminds me a little of a family member. She really likes to get all up in your business and be ‘helpful’ at times when you really don’t want or need it. But rather than sounding concerned, her tone is usually annoyance, as if she can’t believe you are bothering her with need of her help. And she will hold onto the fact that she helped you for years and use it to control even more. I have some stories about it that I’d love to share here, they are kind of funny to me now, but I don’t know if I feel quite comfortable as they are pretty specific details. I may set up a different account to share.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Set up a different account? You mean you’re not really a fox?

      1. fox says:

        Well I just changed it so it didn’t have my real name or an image that I had drawn, just in case. Sorry to disappoint, I am not a real fox, or even a furry. lol

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          The fox is one of my fav creatures…right up there with horses & dolphins. In the world of empaths, I feel like the fox would be half Magnet/half Carrier…the dolphin would be part Geyser/part Savior…and the horse would be a mix of all. I’m actually only goofily speculating on life’s beautiful creatures so that the Resident Narcissist doesn’t get irritated that I’m straying OT.

          Anyway, beautiful fox pic.🦊

          1. fox says:

            Well I like your speculations.I love horses and dolphins too. 🙂 It actually made me go reread the Carrier Empath article, so maybe he will forgive us for straying.

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, Fox🦊~most kind of you.💙

            I forgot to mention the elephant…those old-soul, super intelligent, engaging, amazing creatures.🐘 I especially love them too…what Empath(s) do you think they would be?🤔

          3. WAF Tudorita says:

            Elephants feel like Carrier to me!!
            This is fun
            Ok what’s Lion, Dog, Cat, Monkey?
            Lion seems to me a Magnet
            Dog codependent lol and contagion
            Cat is defin a Super – but super what? Lol maybe Cat is narc
            Monkey seems like Geyser to me

          4. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I love your analysis! Expressive, active monkeys (not including throwing “stuff”) are for sure Geysers. 🙈🙉🙊 I’m calling the cat a SE & the Black Widow a narc🕷 I love powerful lions – but some of the males’ behaviors are a pretty narcy (mating & disengaging all over the place/guarding “their” pride/best food must be brought to them/fighting other males to the death, for territorial reasons).

            Ok, Caroline must stop playing.🥺 Moving Day 2 awaits.😱

          5. WAF Tudorita says:

            Hahah yes lions are narcy lmao well, The makes. The females are carriers lol

          6. fox says:

            Hmm, well I think elephants are intelligent enough to have a very wide variety of types. I would not even think they are all empaths necessarily, though most probably would be.

          7. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            I love lions. The female lion is very independent. And she will personally rip you to pieces. However, when she does find the need to call the male lion for help, and when he does heed her call, you may as well pay your final respects to whomever or whatever you believe in. You essentially have no chance to make it out alive.

          8. Caroline-is-fine says:

            PSE~Yes, the lionesses are fierce kitty cats in their own right.💛 …and I have a particular fondness for courageous/loyal males of any species. 💛

          9. MommyPino says:

            I’m enjoying this conversation. 😊. I like the expressive monkey as Geyser comparison. Dogs also make me think of Geysers being very expressive as well, you can always tell how they feel. As for narcissists, I tend to think of something beautiful but poisonous or dangerous like a lion fish or a lion. You just want to touch them but you can’t. Horses make me think of Carriers. Magnets make me think of a swan or a pink flamingo. 😊

          10. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Most horses make me think of Carriers too…the racers make me think of Magnets + Carriers. I ❤ horses…so sensitive, so powerful, so exquisitely beautiful. Having the privilege of riding a horse has always made me feel especially free.🐎 I especially love to witness horses in the wild.

          11. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I love horses too but I have not had the privilege of learning to ride until in my late twenties so I only know the basics and can only control a well-broken or old horse. My five year old started taking lessons last summer and it’s so fun watching him have the biggest smile with his chin up while riding the horse. It’s amazing how much confidence and happiness it can give to people. I agree with everything that you said about them. And I can totally see the Thoroughbreds as part Magnet part Carrier, they are so beautiful and dignified with their long and slender but athletic figures. They are also champions. When I think of a Super Empath Carrier I imagine an Arabian horse because of its spunk, fire and ability to survive in hostile situations such as the desert. Standard Carriers make me think of Quarter and Paint horses and Condependent Carriers I imagine to be the Gaited breeds. Haha I’m obviously overthinking this. 😂.

            For Saviors I imagine dogs for the reasons that NarcAngel said. Super Empaths make me think of German Shepherds (my favorite breed). I had one that died last year and we loved him and even my five yr old boy cried. He was a beautiful white German Shepherd and he was so amazingly gentle with the kids that he tolerated everything that they did to him that would have made other dogs snap although I made sure they did not keep touching him in those ways. Before I had kids we used to go jogging together around a lake nearby our house and whenever we encountered someone on the trail he would go in front of me in a protective way although he didn’t threaten anybody. I have never had anybody be so protective and obsessed with me as that dog. He was so beautiful and dignified as well. Dogs and horses are both indeed amazing animals and I can totally imagine them being empaths.

          12. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Aw, I’m sorry about the loss of your dog, MP.😥 I had a very sweet-souled Golden that passed away awhile back, and it is so painful to lose these loveable creatures. Dogs are so wonderful. I now have an adopt-a-pet (program) mixed breed doggie…he has Golden, Chow, Hound & Beagle in him. I know, he sounds like a hot mess…but he’s actually such a cute, smart & sweet doggie.💙

            Dogs are paws-and-tails above narcs, in terms of relating to Empaths. Dogs are so real – in the moment – and reciprocal without condition.🐾

          13. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, Thank you, I really miss my dog. I really wish that he is still here. Golden Retrievers are beautiful and gentle souls indeed. I’m sorry for your loss as well. They are probably the best family dogs. They are so beautiful too.
            And thank you for mentioning the adopt a pet program. I wasn’t aware of it until now and I looked it up and saw a few dogs in our area that I want to look at for adoption. I can only adopt one. We want to get another dog but not a German Shepherd anymore because they are very big and we will move to live in three different countries (one year in each country) after my husband retires so we want a small dog that can travel with us. Our kids have been asking for a dog and they love every dog that they see in public. I can’t wait to have a new family member. We currently have a cat so we need a dog that can get along with a cat. It sounds like your dog is a great dog. I’m happy that you found each other. I wish our family can be the same way for a dog soon. 😊

          14. Caroline-is-fine says:

            German Shepherds are fantastic dogs, but I understand your practicality in wanting a smaller dog. A great aspect to the pet adoption program is that you can spend as much time as you like with the animals, and it really gives you a good opportunity to feel out what dog/cat is right for your home/family…and as Empaths, I think we have a Sixth Sense in these matters, which means the right animal finds the right home to love him/her — and to flourish.💛

          15. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine. I can’t wait to find out who will be our new family dog. The problem with me is once the dog is home with us and the dog gets attached to us, it will be hard for us to return the dog even if the dog may not be the perfect fit. It will make me feel that I’m letting the dog down so I will end up trying until the end to make it work. So I think I should first do a lot of research and meet the dog first with my family before we bring the dog home. That’s why I used to think that I might have a codependent in me and I was surprised that HG didn’t find any during the Detector. Although I have a tiny sprinkle of martyr but he said that it’s not the same as a codependent. Anyway, it does help that they tell you if the dog will be ok with little kids or not and also with cats. I am surprised that a lot of dogs cannot live with a man in the household. I wonder if some dogs prefer women but why would the shelter discriminate on men right away before the application instead of maybe trying to see if the dog might like a family that has a male in it because I think we just will not know for sure until the dog meets the family. 🤷‍♀️

          16. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I hear ya…unless a dog acted like Cujo when I got the dog home, I’d likely not be able to return either! I actually only meant spending time with the animals at the adopt-a-pet program location, but there may be places that will allow “trial runs” at your own home.

            Doing a lot of research on dog breeds is wise. I did the same (so I knew a lot about all the breeds in my current mixed doggie). I was worried the Chow-Chow in him may make him a bit too fierce, but it really hasn’t — however, I trained him as a pup, and I was firm when he occasionally did little growls at others, early on — and it stopped that behavior straight away. He is super laid back and gentle/easy. Too bad that my expert training methods don’t work on narcs! <threw that statement in, so that HG won't be as apt to protest our dog convo.😎

            I think some of the breeds that do best with a male in the house are those with a strong pack mentality/ancestry…so they will follow the male around much more, instinctively feeling: "there's the alpha provider!" One of my guy friends has a dog that's half Chow…and I DO know he feels like he is constantly being stalked.😂

          17. MommyPino says:

            Ah thanks for clarifying. I saw an option to foster the dogs and I wasn’t sure how that works so I thought that it was what you meant, sort of like a trial run with them. I don’t think that I would do very well with it and also my kids. A few months ago my youngest stepdaughter needed us to take care of her dog while she was looking for a new apartment and I agreed even though I’m in No Contact with her as we had been in a very toxic dynamic for almost ten years but only intermittently as she and I never lived together. I am pegging her as a Lesser. She then decided after a few weeks that she will give up the dog to us permanently. The dog bonded with me and the kids and even chose me as her main person to follow around and obey. Then after I gave her a make over with new collar, leash and dog tags my stepdaughter changed her mind and took the dog back. My kids got really sad and actually up to now they still keep talking about the dog to other people. It’s amazing how much these things make an imprint in their little brains. So I wouldn’t want that to happen again. I will really make sure to do research before bringing home a new dog so that it will work. I think that you are right and that is a great point about dog breeds with strong pack mentality looking for an alpha. My GSD used to follow my husband around even though I was his owner before I married my husband. It was funny. 😊.
            Haha I don’t think that any of us will ever be able to train a narcissist. They train us with their manipulations but they will always resist being trained by us in any way. It’s not worth the attempt. 😆. Dogs are more than willing to be trained. They want to make it work and they want to please us and make us happy. I’m not even a good trainer but I was able to teach my GSD to sit, lie down and shake my hand. That’s because he was really smart and sweet. 😊

          18. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I feel so bad about your family having to give the doggie back.😪 Not fair! Maybe she’ll change her mind again, in which case, have her sign a contract. 🐾Doggie Rights!🐾

            Sit/Come & Stay (or Lie Down) is really all you need to train (“No bark” if they’re over-barkers, which can be helpful)…so shaking hands was a cute bonus train!😉 I lucked out with this little doggie~he’s the sharpest little doggie I’ve ever had, so he was a dream to train…like he taught himself to push the ice cube dispenser to get an ice cube out for himself🥰…and when too many come out, he looks at me like, “Oops.”😂

          19. MommyPino says:

            Haha that’s so cute that he gets ice for himself. I love smart domesticated dogs. 🥰. And it sounds like he is so expressive too!
            Yeah it was a bummer with my stepdaughter. I just told my husband to just say no next time. I was ok with taking care of her dog temporarily but she had to make it complicated by saying that she’s giving the dog to us permanently. I guess that would qualify as a hoover even though I never talked to her and her dad was the one talking to her. But I just look at it that if we didn’t take care of the dog, the dog may have ended up in a shelter; that’s what my husband told me in the first place which is why I agreed to take the dog temporarily. Narcs really have a tendency to make everything complicated lol. As long as we don’t let it get to us it doesn’t really matter. 😊💕

          20. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Narcs DO complicate everything…I can see it now, how they thrive on the chaos, for diversionary purposes & fuel. Lately, I’ve been more suspicious of people who always seem to make everything so blame hard — like they’re *trying* to be impossible. “Are you aggravating everyone, like it’s 50 block goals in a row of immovability – and then pity-play excuses? Then you must be a narc!” 🕵️‍♀️Then again, some people can be rather unlucky or just ill-equipped, so it’s hard to know sometimes🤷‍♀️

          21. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I think that it’s probably a good thing to be suspicious so that you don’t get ensnared easily. I now take heed of red flags better than I used to. I have said this before but it is true, HG has an amazing gift in communication that he was able to name and describe all of these red flag behaviors in a way that everybody can understand them. But personally I am more paying attention to behaviors. NarcAngel I think posted something somewhere where if the behaviors or the dynamic is toxic, then she avoids the person. I am the same way. Normals and empaths can also behave in a way that is toxic or damaging to us. Unlike narcissists, they will have guilt or remorse if they find out what they did and may make corrections or improvements even if at first they were ill equipped. Sometimes normals and empaths just really believe that their behaviors were justified because of some belief or impression or perspective that they have so they will keep doing the same behaviors that are damaging or toxic to you. Should we still put up with it just because they are not narcissists? I don’t think that we should. My husband is one of those stubborn headed people who refuse to label people as narcissists because it seems too weird for him to label someone with a disorder. His ex wife in my opinion is a Victim MRN. He thinks she is just a bad combination of stupidity and selfishness. And yet, without him identifying her as a narcissist, he has limited his interactions with her in such a way that you would think he believes her to be a narcissist. He doesn’t ever talk to her unless it’s about their special needs son. He avoids her all the time and when he sees her he doesn’t even say hi to her. When he has to talk to her it is always short and with no emotion. Like one time she texted him about picking up her son at our house at such a day and time (2pm for example) because they are going to do something together and then she brought up that she heard that he is replacing the old windows with new ones and said to him that she hopes he doesn’t replace the rose stained glass windows because she loves them. The only reply that he sent her was, “We will wait for you until 2.” 😁

          22. HG Tudor says:

            You are incorrect about the toxicity of normals and empaths. That is not to say that they are not incapable of unpleasant behaviours but the frequency of the same and the driving force behind them does not mean they are individuals to be avoided. Read The Empathy Cake.

          23. MommyPino says:

            Thank you HG, I understand that I have oversimplified. I was thinking of Normals and Empaths who are under a wrong perception and behaves in an unpleasant or toxic manner against you. For example, when my husband just got divorced, his ex wife smeared him to a lot of people. He was paying her the alimony that he was ordered to pay and yet she went to church asking for food and financial help and telling them that he wasn’t paying up. A church member who was probably an empath upbraided him for that and always looked at him like he was a deadbeat whenever they saw each other at the church. He then avoided the man. I think that some Normals and empaths can engage in unpleasant behaviors when they do not have all of the information and sometimes there is nothing that we can do because the narcissist is much more convincing. In the case of my husband, his ex wife acts like a meek lamb so she was pretty convincing. But it was an oversimplification and I should have given an example and I agree with you that it doesn’t automatically mean that they should be avoided.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            Noted. See “Why Is Divorce So Hard” to understand how empaths and normals might respond in an unpleasant way and how they proceed thereafter.

          25. MommyPino says:

            Thank you HG, I will.

          26. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Even if he doesn’t label her, he’s apparently got enough forethought & discipline to both avoid getting caught up with her stuff and not unnecessarily provoke either…

            “We will wait for you until 2.”

            I mean, that’s pretty perfect.😂

          27. MommyPino says:

            Haha so true! I asked him how he learned that and he said from many years of dealing with her bullshit. People here are in a much fortunate position to have HG guide them during the divorce to avoid similar things that my husband went through. She did all kinds of stuff to him and even to his second wife. It really is best to have an expert’s guidance than to go through it with trial and error.

          28. Caroline-is-fine says:

            “Many years dealing with her bullshit”😂 <That is a man who has mastered the trial-and-error of what gives him the most peace!

            I was with my nex-BF for 3 years, and I think I mainly ignored a lot of his BS…which he wasn't a fan of, so he'd up the ante, and then I'd break up with him…until he'd Prince Charming me back. That wasn't at all stupidly nuts!😂

            The biggest eye-opener for me as to how his mind works was when he (years after our final breakup) was divorcing his then-wife & would call to talk to me about what was going on (I didn't realize he was a narc yet – thought I was just being kind to him in a rough time)…so he'd free-float thoughts on her, and it was seriously like listening to a 16-year-old. I mean, I had to suppress laughter — it was that ridiculous. One time, he told me, "She just yelled down that she was making salmon for dinner, and asked did I want some…everything always has to be that witch's idea."

            WTH?? No words…😂

          29. MommyPino says:

            OMG Caroline is fine that is hilarious! 😂. He was probably giving her silent treatment that’s why she was yelling at him and he still didn’t have the ability to realize what he was doing to her that was making her pissed. It’s always that witch’s fault!! 😂😂🤣.

            It sounds like your nex-BF was a MR. It’s amazing how similar they are. My MR half sister used me as a therapist as well and she just went on and on and also sounded like a 16 yr old. She had really high IQ and even got accepted in Mensa but her thoughts when she went on tangents will make you wonder about her intellect. It was horrible when she was living with me because it was hard to escape her, she always found me. At first her silent treatments made me feel sad and confused and wondering what was going on, but eventually I found myself looking forward to it. 😁. This is why they go after us and not the Normals because only empaths would be kind enough to listen to them. 😊

          30. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I used to think he was a UMR (was torn on that or a Greater category that hits most everything), but he fully knows what he is, and not in a subconscious or lack-of-knowledge way — he’s known for a long time he has NPD/fully accepts it (feels it’s a plus, especially with his career), and we’ve talked about it in-depth. The reason I know this is a whole other story, of fairly recent events. I tried to help his (original) family members get him into therapy, when they reached out to me…he had a breakdown of sorts. Other than funny stuff, I try not to talk about him too specifically, and I’m careful about certain aspects. He’s always handled me fairly carefully, in one sense…but in another sense, he is…not mild. He can be chilling.

            However, the good news is after trying to wrangle him into therapy (he has gone) — which is an ill-advised thing for a former IPPS to do, I know — I’ve got a very solid NC. My work areas are places he has shown up, but he has to really inconvenience himself, and he just doesn’t have time to keep doing it. I have a gut feeling he may show up one more time, but I feel next year I will be back to not hearing from him at all.

            And THAT will be it. If I get away with this without anything too awful happening to me, I’m assuming the Angels aligned and am never pushing my luck again.🤗

          31. Kim e says:

            CIF…….It is NEVER IT!!!!!!! Sorry….HG hacked my head and forced me to typed that!!!

          32. Caroline-is-fine says:

            What?? 😂 Are you saying it’s never truly over, as in Hoovers? If so, yes, I do get that part…I just mean the whole “sitting down and talking to me” thing will be over. He doesn’t even want to talk to me anyway — I’ve already talked to him. There’s nothing left to say! He just wants to see my reaction, for fuel. At some point, these people give up and move on — they have to. The only reason he’s pursuing this — this way — is because I’m a former IPPS, and he’s used to the pattern. Time is on my side. I think. (Pretty sure — as long as he doesn’t get super mad, and I’ve really ensured I’ve not done anything to provoke/did not wound, best I can tell).

          33. Kim e says:

            Caroline darling……..I am saying the chance of a hoover never over. As the days (all 3 of them) have gone on since I have started NC again, I have gonna gone from I am going to unblock him….to DONT YOU DARE!!!!!! So far dont you dare is winning.
            I really do hope I do not…if I ever do…get hoovered again because it really messes with me Let me be NC for at least 4 months……..
            OK…enough BS talk
            I saw where you replied somewhere else that you do not believe in the forever N versus E relationship. I f you believe that hoovers can happen anytime…then the relationship must still be there. You are correct not the sit down and chat relationship but the N versus E relationship that HG talks about.
            Of course he wants to talk to you…forever. FUEL baby.
            Have a great weekend

          34. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I understand your point. I understand HG’s. 😉 The way I think is good for who I am. It motivates me to be my own person & have increased inner strength when necessary. 🙌

            I’m so glad you did not unblock. Maybe try to think of things that motivate you to keep the block…it’d be unique to you, but maybe think about it.

            Realistically, you will be Hoovered…most especially so because he lives right by you! So, again, maybe give it some thought now — prep work — on how to think/be when that happens. Build your strength & get your mind ready, for it to affect you less. The best time to practice how you’ll react/build your defenses is when the narc is away.😎

            But for now, just succeed…at blocking out that which is no good for you: Him.

          35. Kim e says:

            CIF…….Gotta do what works for us or it doesnt work at all. Please don think I was trying to disagree with your point. I was just stating my point.
            Hoovers will come and go. At this pint in time I am just trying to keep calm so I dont unblock again. I think of something about him and then say…it doesnt matter. He is out of your life……
            Have a great weekend. I am going to spend some time hiking….rumming……(yes it says rumming not running lol)….eating. Just being happy
            Hope your weekend is great too. I will check in next week.
            Thanks Caroline Is Special!!! XXOO

          36. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Nah, I didn’t take your comment negatively at all – was just trying to explain what makes me tick. Good for you~on your weekend activities~sounds really nice !😎 I’m organizing/packing up today, for another work trip…on the road again tomorrow.🚘

          37. Kim e says:

            CIF…..Hope your trip is going well. That is all…over and out!!!!!

          38. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Telling me “Over and out” makes you highly suspect, Missy.🕵️‍♀️

          39. Kim e says:

            CIF…….Highly suspect? OF?????
            It was a very high ET day and I just wanted to check in with you but not talk anything else. I did talk to SMH so please check up there.
            Wine is my friend tonight.

          40. Kim e says:

            CIF……I have just come to a realization. Going NC is kinda like the stages of grief. I have a yearning to read thru old text messages from the N which I have not wanted to do in forever. (I know HG…delete them) I read the new ones but have not back tracked in forever even when I wasn’t NC.
            SO I am guessing that my LT was stronger than I thought and my ego had me tied to my ET.
            You quit giving me your opinion and I miss it.

          41. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hey Kim,
            I’m really not giving you the frosty freeze treatment~I swear! 💙It’s just 2 things at play…first, I’m away & involved with something (work-related), where I have zero service at times…but we’re back in a vehicle traveling again now, so I’m back online for a bit.

            Second, I’m trying really hard to support you — but also not do anything that facilitates feeding your addiction…so that probably explains why I’ve been more quiet too. I’m trying to be as wise as I can be, *for* you.

            It’s likely because it’s a zany ride right now (poor roads), but can you explain again what you mean by you feel like your LT is stronger than you thought…and it’s more ego-driven? That’s good for us to talk about. 🙂

            I deleted every email (I don’t text) my nex-BF ever sent me…and it actually was not easy for me to do (which surprised me), so I do get it. But please try hard not to re-read them. However, a little funny that just sprang to mind…the last email I got from The King was: “I see you’re going for a power play, again…or whatever.”

            😂 That’s rich, Your Highness.

          42. Kim e says:

            Soem times feeding my addiction to you really helps me to understand. It was something that you or SMH said to me that caused me to go NC. I need to be able to ask for maybe things to expect cuz that is how my mind works. I do not want you to tell me things either that might trigger you. The more information and examples of what to expect help me…they do not feed me.
            My LT statement means that I feel my LT was stronger than I thought it was but it was my ego (ET) that was over riding it. For ever talk I have had with myself for some time, I have always countered and ET thought with a LT one. But the ET one was what I went with because I knew that thought would cause a hoover and contact with him again.
            It has not been easy…I admit….been hell…but I am sticking to it. I have moved parking (I hate it)
            I hope if he decides to hoover me he waits about 6 years so my LT is strong…..LOL
            Thanks for answering. Have fun at work……

          43. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I understand. I think it’s that with those on this site who seem to be struggling with addiction to the narc, I feel like the more we talk about what the narc says or does, there’s a danger of the empath to overanalyze everything about the narc — and then the narc is just uppermost in their mind. So that’s what I try not to be part of, but I know some aspects of talking about it can be very helpful and work toward NC. It can be a fine line. I actually like it when HG occasionally comes down from his lofty perch (lol) and will interject on how a question or certain talk can be a bad thing, for the empath.

            As for triggering me, I don’t think anything on this site (or anything anyone has ever said) ever has had that kind of impact for me, or I can’t recall it anyway…I’ve seen plenty of empaths mention being “triggered,” and I try to be aware of it, but I’m actually not sure I know what I would say that would do that, so maybe you can explain that to me, as it would help to know!

            I do remember being on a thread a ways back — one of the poll questions — and it was one of the rare times I mentioned (more descriptively) how my narc was with me in some aspect, and I remember exactly who it was who said they were getting triggered really bad and needed to take a break from the site for awhile…I felt so bad! I didn’t know for sure what they meant that triggered them, but I never brought that particular item up anywhere again!

          44. NarcAngel says:

            Caroline is fine
            I’ve never really understood what triggered meant either. I asked once early on but never really got an answer. I didn’t know if it meant caused a memory, made them want to go running for their meds, caused them to return to the narc, or perhaps all of the above. If it’s different things for different people then it’s hard to know If what we are discussing is causing it. Trying to avoid it would certainly limit conversation here. I’m sure that person was just being honest in how they can easily be triggered and providing the reason for their temporary absence and would not want you to feel censored or bad about it.

          45. Shelf Fuel says:

            I tend to have certain triggers that make me recall certain memories, crave Piano Boy immensely and thus will reach out to him.

          46. Shelf Fuel says:

            I also over analyze everything he says and does as well.

          47. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, Gabrielle🌷

            I’ve found that after learning about what drives a narcissist, I’m just not very curious about all the particulars of a narc’s words or behaviors, because “all roads lead back to narcissism”…

            For those times I *have* tried to make sense of something my nex-BF has said/done, I have tried to catch myself and apply logic — at the fruitlessness of my quest to “understand.” It’s helped me a lot, so maybe my sharing this can help you, with this aspect. I can’t see this entire thread right now, but I think it’s a thread where I mentioned the context of the last email the narcissist sent me, so I’ll use that as an example, regarding overanalyzing PB…

            So my nex-BF sent me an email that said: “I see you’re going for a power play, again…or whatever.”

            That message made no sense to me. I’m NC, but he can send an email that makes its way to me through an old account, which I can’t delete, & I sometimes don’t recognize the sender (aren’t narcs fun?). Anyway, I thought: “What? What’s this even about?”

            So my mind wanders to the last conversation we had, before I went NC…and I also thought about how I hid out when he turned up at one of my work places recently…I start thinking about all this, because I like things to make sense, ya know!…but then…


            The possibilities of that message were endless, including the following (but truly limitless):
            -He’s ticked he couldn’t find me at work — assumes it was on purpose (it was) — & reacted.
            -He made up the email out of nothingness to see if I’d contact him.
            -He made up the email to make it seem like he meant it for someone else (reason unknown).
            -The message IS for someone else — and he just hit the wrong email address.

            I could write a list a yard long on the possibilities…

            But I hate wasting my time on the pointless! It doesn’t matter. There is no point in trying to analyze a narcissist, because they have their own rulebook, so it would just be guessing *what* game and *what* rules…why bother? In my case, why bother because I’m trying to get him off me, while avoiding receiving anything malign. In your case, why bother because even if you hit upon the “right reason” for a narc’s behavior, he will later change it up to some other reality or flip the script the next go-around. One thing about you overanalyzing him that is for darn sure…

            It won’t help you handle him better — or feel better (for long) — or get your needs met better…they don’t want to be handled, nor understood. They aren’t looking to resolve issues or make you feel more secure. They want to get their way…and their fuel. Everything else is connected to that, like the screwiest “disorg chart” you’d ever see.

            So that means you can analyze him on all his particulars until the cows (moo!🐄 )come home…it won’t help you accomplish anything.

            In a sense, they have no baseline for you to build off of, to improve upon or stabilize your relationship dynamic…so how will your over-analysis of him be effective?

          48. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine I love your advice. Everything you said is true. 💕

            What you said made me remember a lot of things about my mom and sister. They seem to get fuel in the same instinctive way that we get water from the fridge when we are thirsty. When we get water, we don’t think, “I am thirsty, I’m going to get water. I’m going to walk to the kitchen and get a glass and push it against the water dispenser and drink it.” We just do it instinctively without thought. Both my mom and sister did what you described your narc ex did to you through email. The driving force for them to say those things is instinct and not logic. You are right, he is angry that he’s losing his grip on you so he sent you this email that doesn’t make any sense which could have had you responding, “What do you mean?” Hence the fuel starts to flow out of the dispenser. My sister did this to me when I started avoiding her. I ignored the email and then she emailed me again saying it wasn’t meant to be sent to me, she made a mistake. I still didn’t respond. I didn’t care. I already made a decision and sticking by it.

          49. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I love your water example!
            Thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. The more these narc behaviors are broken down to basics, the less “mystique” there is to it. It’s a disorder, so I always think of it as such. I feel bad that there are people who have this disorder, but I also don’t want others (myself included) to suffer harm by extension.

            I hope you don’t mind me asking how you are doing, after your mother’s death. If it is too personal or too much for you to speak of, I completely understand…I just want you to know I’m thinking of you and wishing you peace.💛

          50. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine. I’m doing so much better now, thank you for thinking of me. It was much harder when I was in my home country because everywhere I went, I was reminded of her and my life with her. I also stayed alone in her apartment after she died to clean it up and figure out which stuff I wanted to keep and give away. I was also not with my family and I was missing them especially my little kids. I didn’t take the kids with me because my mom had tuberculosis and we didn’t want to risk the kids catching the bacteria. She wasn’t supposed to be contagious if she was taking her medication like she was supposed to but even when I was there I caught her skipping her meds and getting upset when I urged her to take them. I actually had a very weird mix of emotions. When I was taking care of her before she died I was not as affectionate with her as I was with my dad when I took care of him before he died. I was totally like an empath to my dad and he was telling everybody how lucky he was to have me and how wonderful and loving I was to him. With my mom, I was behaved like a hired caregiver. There were times that she tried to have conversations with me and my answers were very short and polite but not loving. I didn’t hug her like I did with my dad. All that I did was clean her apartment, cook for her, buy food for her, help her with showers etc. but I was very guarded. The only emotional moment was when she asked me to put oil on her hair, brush her hair and put it on a bun. I felt good and remembered when I was a child and she brushed my hair and put it on a ponytail. Other than that, I was not very loving towards her. But when she died I was much more overwhelmed with sorrow than I did with my dad’s death. My mom was the one who raised me and I never met my dad until one year before he died. Also, he was already 82 and has achieved so much in his life unlike my mom. With her death it was like a big part of me was gone forever. I was also really sad that I wasn’t able to make her life better because of her disorder. I felt really bad for her. I asked my husband if he had different feelings when his mom that he loved died compared to his abusive and alcoholic dad when he died. He said yes. I told him about my guilt and he said that I can’t blame myself for not being affectionate towards her before she died because she wasn’t affectionate towards me either and I can’t force to create a connection that didn’t exist just because she’s about to die. But aside from that I have always been ok. And I am so much better now that I am now seeing the situation much more clearly and I am able to accept what has happened for what it really was. Thank you Caroline, you’re so sweet to ask. ❤️

          51. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I got very teary reading your reply, as I understand all your feelings, and it deeply touched me…your mixed emotions, behaviors (caretaking) and post-reflections after her death are very real, honest and healthy.❤

            It was not your fault that you had a Mom with NPD, and I hope you can be at deep peace with yourself, knowing that you’ve done the best you can with it, while she raised you and into your adult life…and also caring for her in her last days…you were a dutiful daughter, and this was your very decent way of honoring her as your mother — NPD and all. I think it is actually just right how you handled it in such a genuine way, as there was no true way for you to connect in a bond emotionally with her, as there never has been; as a loving Empath, you naturally always wanted there to be…but it is just not possible, which you know. So being appropriately guarded kept it very decent, in that there was no big drama and last-days turmoil that would linger in your mind, and you also granted your mother that form of dignity too…so please know that you did a very fine job, and it was as peaceful and loving as it could be.

            I’m here for you, if you ever need to talk about any of it again, as death is such a process to go through. I loved your reflections about fixing her hair, as she did yours, in your younger days…it’s okay to hold that good memory of a caretaking duty of hers. In a way, it brings it all full circle.

            You’re more healthy for understanding all that the relationship was with your mother…yet your heart is still warm and open today. Well done, sweetheart.💖

          52. MommyPino says:

            Thank you so much Caroline. ❤️❤️❤️ You moved me to tears. You are such a good and kind person. Thank you for your kindness. ❤️❤️❤️

          53. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Aww, thank you for your sweet words~and you are so welcome. 💗Since we’ve both had our tears today (though not the bad kind), let me know if you need a laugh — at what a sitcom my early morning hours were… I had such a goofy start to the day! I swear it’s because of my hair (Yep, my hair). My hair is a medium chestnut brown color, so it always has *some* golden-blondish strands in it…but during the sunny, summertime months, the golden part comes out more…and I swear that makes me more Lucy Ball-like (To be clear, I’m not saying people who have blonde hair are ditzy — I’m saying that *I* seem to get that way, when the “golden” in my hair amps up).

            I got both your thank-you posts to me~so it was double the sweetness.😘 I get that error message on the site at times too…then sometimes my comment will go through later – and sometimes not at all. Technology can be so screwy. 🥴

          54. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine, I’m always game for a laugh! That’s a pretty hair color by the way. I think that could be what my daughter’s hair will turn to someday. Right now she seems to have blonde hair which gets really light with the sun. But her strands look darker when wet and indoors. That’s so cute that you literally have blonde moments. 😊

          55. Caroline-is-fine? says:

            If your daughter has light-to-medium chestnut brown, she’ll practically get 2 different (seasonal) colors out of it, which is pretty fun. 🎉 (My eyes look totally green, but there’s a teeny-tiny ring of gold in them too, so I’m always rather color-coordinated. 😂). Ok, so here was my Lucy Ball (yesterday) morning…Get ready to point & laugh, as is entirely appropriate…

            I woke up really early & while getting ready for work, I thought it’d be nice to light my fav candle (Goose Creek “Mermaid Kisses”/Yes, it IS funny that I’m an Empath & have that name of a candle)…I shower & get ready, putting a small spritz of a fav perfume on my wrists/behind my ears (“My Happy: Cocoa & Cashmere”), before heading out to the kitchen, to cut up strawberries & pop half an “Everything” bagel in the toaster…In the meantime, I go back to the bathroom to finish drying/fixing my hair…and then I realize I’ve put WAY too perfume on, even though it’s a very subtle, plum-musky scent –but I can literally smell it everywhere…why?? Did I accidentally spray it on my clothes? Is there a leak in the perfume bottle? I check – nope. Weird. I stand there, lost in thought as to why it seems like I took a bath in the perfume, when I only put a few dabs on. Should I change my clothes? Oh, screw it – I don’t have time for this, so I finish getting ready & then head back to my bedroom to grab something for work, and I see the still-lit Goose Creek Candle. Well shoot, I need to blow that out! I do, and then I lean down and take a good whiff of it…then I smell my wrists. The two scents are remarkably similar…

            Hey, Nancy Drew! Wake up! You’ve been smelling the candle wafting through the house this entire time, not your perfume. 🤭Is my “absent-minded professor” gig over? No, not quite…

            As I head down the driveway to work, I realize that in all this perfume nonsense, I forgot to eat breakfast. I rush back in my house & discover my bagel got stuck in the toaster — and is totally black. Apparently, whether via candle or toaster, I’m determined to burn my house down…

            My hair should be much less “golden” by October. I’ll be a genius by then.😂

          56. MommyPino says:

            LOL you’re too adorable Caroline is fine 😂💕. Thank you for the cute, funny and suspenseful story! Although you better make sure that all of your smoke alarms are all working and have new batteries during your golden hair season lol. I am slightly jealous because I am ditzy too but with my dark brown hair I don’t have any excuse.😂.

          57. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m sure you need no such excuse, with your “ditzy moments” being quite low in number, Chica.😉 I agree, with my smoke detectors…hello, wasn’t there enough smoke to trigger them, with my charcoal bagel slice?? 🥯There’s a working smoke detector in a hallway, right off the kitchen. But just like a narc, it did absolutely nothing to help me.😑

          58. MommyPino says:

            Haha I was just teasing you about the smoke detector. I’m sure you caught it pretty soon. Haha I wish my ditziness is indeed rare. I daydream a lot so my mind can get sidetracked. 🤪. Anyway, because of your cute and funny story, my house is now ready for fall. First you got me inspired to shop for fall scented candles. Then the candles got me inspired to buy a fall wreath for the door. Then the wreath got me inspired to change our curtains to the fall themed one. We have curtains for every seasons. Then I thought why not get all of our fall decorations out now just to make everything look complete? So now our house looks very fall even though we still have a few days of summer lol. This weekend I want to take the kids to Apple Hill if possible with my husband’s schedule. I love fall season. ☺️

          59. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oh my, through you, I’ve been so very seasonally productive! 🤗 I feel the same way about fall~the most beautiful season of all! I have a lovely, leafy/berry-filled new wreath I can’t wait to put on the front door…a variety of new jar candles to put out…and pretty autumn placemats for the kitchen table (one of my aunties is an amazing seamstress, and she’s sewn me gorgeous placemats for every season).

            Goodbye summer, hello fall!🏉👢🎃🌻🍃🍂🍁

          60. MommyPino says:

            Haha I agree Caroline is fine!! Fall is the most beautiful season of all! 🥰

          61. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I just realized that rhymes (ha), reminding me of the very nice prof/poet I dated…when we broke up, he said, “Well, I guess I’ll have more to write about.” I just looked at him…he said, “You know, because I’m a poet.” I said, “Oh, right…”

            Another “golden” moment for me?🤭 In my defense, I was dwelling on how AWFUL I felt. (Now that I think of it, *what* exactly was he going to write? Since I did the breaking up, it can’t be all sunsets&moonlight…I don’t think I’ll explore that. 🥺)

            Ok, time for me to say something related to narcissism…I was thinking yesterday about what an opportunity it is for empaths to learn/grow/heal from their pain/wounds from their narcissistic entanglement. I know narcissists are wired so differently, but I can’t imagine the burden of carrying around all these gnarly, unresolved matters that are just swept under the carpet all the time…I realize they (literally) don’t care…but it’s still quite sad to me that their inner pain is never dealt with, nor healed. In a way, in life, I feel like we grow the most from the hard, painful aspects. No, I don’t wish for (nor enjoy!) struggles, but I do think it’s often when we stretch and become “more,” not less, and we also gain confidence, when we get in there & don’t avoid the tough stuff…KWIM?


          62. MommyPino says:

            Aww, poor guy. But at least you gave him more material to write about. 🤷‍♀️ Are you sure that he wasn’t a narc though? The narc that I dated briefly had all kinds of poems written about his first love as if there’s no other woman that holds a candle to her. Now I think it’s just his way of triangulating women to try harder. He used to send me little cryptic poems that I couldn’t understand in the middle of the night, around 2-3 am everyday. When I asked him what they mean he told me that I will find out someday. I remember my body clock adjusting to his texts where I automatically wake up in the middle of the night to wait for his text. I’m glad I got out of that one before I got too involved. I feel a sense of gratitude towards him though because he gave me those fancy dates that only the very wealthy people in my country get to experience. But now I know if the ensnarement got longer I would feel differently. I think he was grooming me to be his DLS. He was inviting me to go out of the country with him before I told him that I got my US citizenship and will be moving to the US in a month. I didn’t hear from him after that even though we have been online friends for years before I agreed to go out with him. I thought it was weird at that time, I remember being upset about it. Now I can understand and am thankful.

            I love your thoughts about narcissism and I agree with you. We have advantages and disadvantages compared to them. It seems that they are advantageous over us when we get disengaged and still fighting the pain while they are already happily dating someone new. Or when they can easily compartmentalize and put on a charming and kind facade to everyone after they have treated us horribly in private. And it seems like their lack of remorse or empathy gives them an advantage to move forward after a toxic and chaotic dynamic with us or other people while we walk around having a hard time trusting again and forgiving ourselves for our part in the dynamic. But if we remove our ET, we have a much bigger chance of having a fulfilling life than majority of them. They cannot change because their narcissism prevents them from seeing a need to change. We on the other hand learn and even if the past relationship is completely lost or burnt, we adjust our behaviors for other people that we encounter and relationships become better. With them, it’s always the same, the only thing that change or gets recycled is the people that put up with them.

          63. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yes, “recycling” their way along is a good way to put it…As for me, I want to keep growing – not do the same ol’/same ol’, so I do not envy the endless pattern sequences of a narcissist’s life. Again, it’s sad to me. I’m pretty sure the compassion I feel over them having a disorder can trip me up a tad at times (wraps into a guilt issue, at times), but it doesn’t trip me up enough yet to make me fall — I think I’ve now come to a pretty good balance…staying true to my compassionate heart — but being strong in/for myself (and logical), not to get tangled into any sort of narcissistic abuse again. It’s taken me time to find the balance. I never want the narc entanglement to embitter me, which I can’t say I’ve ever felt. I feel blessed for that.💖

            No, the prof poet was very much an Empath. I dated him for a year, and it was a wonderful, healthy relationship. He was so supportive of my living out all my experiences at college…so non-controlling and cool. He was honorable & ethical, yet also fun & easy-going. What he inferred about writing about me/us was said in a kind way, like he was trying to ease how bad he knew *I* felt, and he even gave me a little wink when he said it (however, I could tell he did mean he’d get a poem or two out of it, which I think is a pretty positive way to cope). So…he was great…and I hurt an Empath😭…worse: to go out with a narc! 😞 Well, we live…we learn…we try to make something good of those hard lessons.

          64. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, yes, we absolutely live and learn. That is a blessing that empaths have but we don’t often appreciate. This might be a cheesy analogy but it used to scare me when my kids’ fever get really high until I was told that the temperature gets high because the inflammatory response of the immune system is working extra hard. So what is scary is actually a good sign that the body is trying to heal. And after that, immune system often gets stronger as it is more familiar with the bug that the body encountered. I feel it is the same as what you are saying. It does hurt us more as we reflect on what has happened but that reflection is what helps us figure out what we did wrong whether it was being too kind, having poor boundaries, not seeing or ignoring the signs etc. Then after the pain goes away we grow up and wise up. The narcs in the other hand my not go through pain and they wouldn’t even allow it, couldn’t stand it, and will find a way to not deal with it so the same cycle just keeps going on.

            I think that it is wonderful that you got to experience being truly loved by a man. I take back my wrongful suspicion after you have explained it, I think that he is a really kind person and he wanted you to have that peace to not worry about him so that you can go towards the direction that you chose. There is a reason why it didn’t work out with the two of you at that time and it wasn’t just because you got lured by a narcissist. You would not have broken up with him if everything was really perfect. It could be that it wasn’t the right time or he is not the right man for you. But he was in your life also for a reason and because he was there you know how it is to be treated in a healthy and loving relationship. If you haven’t yet, I’m 💯 sure that you will easily find a healthy relationship again with the right person who is really meant for you. ❤️

          65. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You’re correct-he was a fine man, but he was not the one for me…I’m very blessed in this area now (I don’t talk about it on here, because of my nex-BF…so I stay disciplined on several fronts).💝

            This is totally unrelated, but I’ve been thinking about something lately. I hope you don’t mind me asking you this (please never feel you need to answer), but did your mother copy you a lot? In my own life, I’ve been thinking lately about female narcissists v females who are very narcissistic.

          66. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I have been thinking about your question and I do remember my husband has always been upset or bothered that his youngest daughter which I think is a Lesser always copied his older sister which I think is a MRN. He has been encouraging her to go to a different location away from her older sister so that she can discover who she really is.

          67. Caroline-is-fine says:

            A “P.S.” to my last reply: No need to apologize for wondering if the prof poet was a narc! I took at as nothing but care. It’s totally understandable *why* you might wonder (age difference & his position, for starters). We Empath sisters need to look out for each other, in staying aware.💕

          68. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine for understanding. ❤️❤️ I’m very happy that you are now in a healthy love life and I agree that it’s best to be careful when there is a narc-ex.

            Regarding your question, my mom didn’t copy me. When she was seducing my dad, you would never think that she was a Lesser. She was beautiful and elegant. After I was born she stopped dressing up and started exaggerating her low class demeanor. She loved going completely the opposite of me. For example if I was competing in school for reciting a poem or an oration or when I’m a part of a play and I was well dressed with the help of my teachers, she would be in the audience looking totally embarrassing and eating dried watermelon seeds or boiled peanuts and spitting it’s shell and having a pile of shells around her feet. She loved getting the looks and she loved getting reactions from people being shocked after I introduced her as my mom. It literally made her chuckle and I think she liked seeing my embarrassment and my effort to try to hide my embarrassment and act like everything is normal.
            The only narcissist who copied me was my older stepdaughter. Her fashion style was totally different the first time that I met her. She wore really short mini skirts and plunging necklines. Then eventually she started buying dresses of similar styles to what I wore to work like the wrap and sheath dresses. I remember her staring at the pearl bracelet that I was wearing like it’s a combination of wanting it and hating me for wearing it. I always got compliments about it although I just made the bracelet so it was really cheap. Then the next day she asked her dad for a pearl bracelet as a graduation gift. He got her a pearl necklace which was totally beautiful and expensive (Links of London) and she never looked at my bracelet again lol. She didn’t exactly copy me but she competed with me by copying me. She was also critical when I decided to take my masters degree online, then after a few months she’s also taking her masters degree online. I enrolled my oldest to gymnastics and she also enrolled her daughter to gymnastics. It’s like she’s keeping up with me and competing.

            I also copy other people but not consistently. Like for example, I saw a mom in school who always wore hats when she picked up her kid and I though that it’s a really good idea. Why am I not wearing hats when it’s so hot when I wait outside before they open the gate. So I started wearing hats too. But that’s the only thing that I copied from her. Unlike my stepdaughter where it seemed like a constant thing throughout the years.

            Do you have female narcs in your family or circle?

          69. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Nooooooooooooooooooo! I wrote you a reply, re: your mother + the reason for my copying question + about a possible narc in my family tree…I sent it – and then the screen froze, and I think I lost it…Curses, Red Baron!!😩

            Okay, I will be back later on today, & I’ll check if it went through…and if not, I’ll redo on your Mom & the narc topic first, so it should sail through more easily. 🚤 I’m running late, yet I still take the time to find a sailboat emoji. Really, Caroline? Yes, really. 😂🥰

          70. MommyPino says:

            Oh nooooo! I hate when that happens! It looks like it didn’t go through. 😬
            I hope that you were not late. Have a wonderful day at work! Haha and I love your emojis!!! 🌼🌸🧸🥰

          71. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, girl…I shall try this thing again! I’ll take it one topic at a time, since my Tablet is being such a big, fat baby.😭🍼 <not even gonna feel guilty for disparaging my Tablet. Nope, not gonna.😛

            First, about your Mom's behavior at your special events…oh…my…gosh. I both laughed at your description (because it's such an absurd/outrageous way for her to behave) AND also cringed…because I so feel for you, having to go through that. Ugh, the wackiness of the NPD Attention Monger! That's so hard for a child/teen to have to deal with…as you know, it is NO reflection on you, which is why everyone who knew you would be like this, at realizing this woman (behaving in such an off-putting manner) was your Mom: 😨😧😬😱 I'm very sorry she felt the need to go so extreme — at special moments for you — to get her fuel. However, I'm sure all it did was make you look like the true princess you are. 👸It is obvious to me that you are quite mature about taking the knowledge you've gained about NPD & accepting she was how she was because of the disorder…while staying true to who you are.❤ BTW, my Mom is not a narcissist, but she is highly narcissistic, in several ways…so I've dealt with some stuff, believe me. I know it's not the same as having to deal with NPD, but I really do understand.

            And…your example brought up a few memories of the "highly suspected narc" in my own family tree, who is uppermost in my mind right now, in that I recalled a few very oddball behaviors of hers. This has all surfaced since I got a tearful phone call from one of my beloved cousins — and it's about her sister (obviously, who is also my cousin)…so we can chat more on that in our next exchange, if ok with you…but I'll send this now…and I'll pray to God it goes through. 🙏

          72. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Caroline is fine, I have indeed accepted her for what she was. I laugh thinking about a lot of her antics. Even when I was going through it while growing up, I have learned to see the humor in her behaviors. There is a lot of humor that you can find in Lessers, unlike my MR half sister who took herself too seriously. Which is probably why I have a softer spot for Lessers than MRs. Life with my mom was like an odd mix of Larry the Cable Guy and Waterboy movies and Carrie and Whatever Happened to Baby Jane craziness lol. During her wake, a lot of my cousins shared funny and crazy experiences about her and we were all laughing. Although she was physically violent with her too but they care about her because she is their aunt and they accept her disorder.

            I’m so glad that your message went through finally. My screen froze several times yesterday too when I sent comments so now I’m copying my comment before I hit send so that I will just paste the whole thing if it doesn’t go through lol.

            I would love to hear about your story. I love reading from you and I love your stories and sense of humor and emojis lol.

          73. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I am so glad you can laugh about all those antics. Laughter is so heart-healing.💖 I love to laugh, and there’s absolutely a time for humor – but this particular story isn’t a funny one, so probably no cute emojis, except the little sad one. 😥

            I grew up seeing a lot of both my first and my second cousins, and I’m very close to several of them, even though we live pretty far apart now. Well, one of my second cousins (who mainly keeps in touch through email) called me the other evening, and she was so upset (started to cry)…she wanted to talk to someone outside her immediate family who she trusted/felt safe sharing & getting feedback from…so she called me, and we were on the phone for about 2 hours, where I did a lot of listening…

            Ugh, my heart just hurt for her, listening to all that has gone on in her family through the years, with her older sister. For the sake of clarity, I’ll call her “Emma” (she’s definitely an Empath) & will call her sister “Nancy” (’cause she’s highly Narc-suspect!). I cannot tell you all the narcy stuff Emma explained about Nancy…and it was also interesting, because all these memories started bubbling up for me, of things that I observed in Nancy/odd stuff, which hit me as a child. Emma recalled them too. Growing up, Emma and I were like two peas in a pod, and Nancy did some mighty strange things, that would give me a bit of a chill (here’s where the “copying” thing comes in also, if I ever get to that later). Anyway…

            Emma has dealt with so much from her older sister, and she’s now feeling alienated/being smeared to family/friends all over the place by Nancy, in a very insidious manner — which perhaps makes it tougher to deal with…because anyone who really knows Emma would have no doubt she is a good, loving, genuine person…and she’s a wonderful Mom to her 2 little boys…so Nancy is going about the smearing in a way to cast just a wee bit of doubt on Emma in other ways, and it’s actually causing a bunch of problems for Emma, even with their own mother. So that’s what’s up…she feels very alone in her clearly seeing what Nancy is doing, yet people think she’s making a “big deal out of nothing” – and she has no idea what to expect next from Nancy, which is understandably causing her anxiety. BTW, Nancy is beautiful & very smart…but her persona/antics strike me like an Upper Lesser.

            When Emma was done explaining all, I affirmed her that I absolutely believed her/gave her the best counsel I know how, & gently said, “You know, she sounds narcissistic to me, Emma,” and she said, “I know! I’ve been looking into that, as well as Borderline Personality Disorder, but I really think it’s narcissism.” So I think she’s on the right track, and she also very much understands that NOT reacting to her sister is the way to go…she even knows what “no contact” is, and she seems to want to break away from her sister for good, as hard & complicated as it would be. She wants PEACE. Hallelujah for peace.

            We’re talking again this weekend, as she feels like nobody believes her (except me now, and her best friend & her husband), so she feels overwhelmed by the fallout, in her daily life. Being on this site will definitely help me talk to her about this in more depth. She is such a lovely person, but NPD does not discriminate…well, it kind of does, with targeting.😥 She has done many things to try to help Nancy, but all that has ever happened is bite-back…guess we all know how that goes. Not well!

          74. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, That is really sad. We have all been there so we know how horrible Emma feels right now. It’s really fortunate that you know so much about NPD and empaths now that everything made sense 💡when she was telling you what was going on and as you were remembering the past. Do you know if one of their parents have NPD? For now the smearing might be working but people honestly forget stuff like that and also they don’t really care as much as we think they do. But right now it will be really hard for Emma to see the effects of smearing especially since empaths want the truth to be exposed and we have a lot of people pleasing aspect in us in that we care about our reputation and the way our credibility affects our interactions with people. She is in a really lonely place and thank goodness you are there for her. It does make a huge difference to have someone believe you and you also validate her with your own recollections of Nancy because you grew up together.

          75. Caroline-is-fine says:


            Thanks much, for all your thoughts…we had a really good talk about the “what people will think” aspect, and I do think that helped her. I told her that people who really know & care/love her are going to be of high value – they will not let that kind of talk affect how they see her…if anything, they’ll either write it off as “sister stuff” or pettiness on Nancy’s part — or they’ll come to Emma, to ask directly, if they are confused (let’s face it, narcs WILL cause chaos/confusion, and people are only human, so it may cast some degree of doubt, and so we came up with a benign phrase for how she can handle that, without ignited Nancy further, should anything ever get back to her). I told Emma that the ones who don’t know her really well or are the “on the bandwagon” types…who really cares, honestly? That does not need to have a direct impact on her (Emma). Although it’s very unfair (the injustice of it is what I think really bothers us Empaths) — I told her that if she can truly let that part go, it will only empower her — even free her of any “people pleasing” in the long run, which is a big side benefit…I am a firm believer in the Truth coming out in the end, in the most important ways (though it can take way longer than we would want), and Emma’s got a similar mindset on that…so I think that will help her.

            I don’t share with anyone in my personal life about my ex-BF being a narc (to protect them & not make things messier), but I can still share my narc experiences with her, without highlighting that aspect. However, one thing my nex-BF has never done is smear me. At first, I thought it was because he’d know that wouldn’t work on me (several reasons why), but when I asked HG a question on that, he explained quite well why (narcissistically) my ex-BF would *not* take that tack…what I mean is there’s a simple fuel-related reason for some narcs *not* to smear also (sorry, I’m rushing as I type this…but I didn’t light a candle today, so I won’t be burning my house down😂)…Now what my ex WILL do (if in a malign frame) is also the one thing I DO fear: hurt or mess with other people in my life. He KNOWS this is what will get to me too. So that’s why I keep everyone — and I mean everyone — out of it. So I’m like an Undercover Empath, on my own secret mission of handling NC.😎I mean, I’m not totally alone, after all — I have “HG & The Empaths.” <cool new band name?😎

            Emma's Mom…yes, I want to get to that part, but I'll send this for now …and I'll catch ya on the flipside.🍳YES, I finally found a way to use the "egg-in-the-skillet" emoji…I know, call 1-800-EMO-HELP, for my emoji addiction.🙄

          76. MommyPino says:

            Lol your emoji addiction is adorable. I’m probably going to pick up a few from you for later use. 😊.

            You are absolutely right with everything that you told Emma about getting smeared. It doesn’t alleviate the pain but thinking about those thoughts gives us a bigger perspective that goes beyond the painful present experience. I can honey say that I don’t remember a lot of the gossips told to me by my half sister about people. My mom was a huge gossiper too. And I noticed with both of them, they gossip with a very delighted and excited facial expressions as if they are giving me something valuable which is really just garbage. They both loved it when I looked puzzled or surprised with what they have said and ask more questions because of my shock. I know better now. I will now show a complete lack of interest and not fuel the gossiper. I will channel my boring Capricorn personality when dealing with narcs and hide the Geyser part as best as I could lol. But honestly, I don’t think about those stories and sometimes I feel so embarrassed for the person that they told me about that I probably unconsciously delete the story in my memory bank. For some reason though, I’m interested in gossips when it’s about public figures and politicians. I don’t know if it’s because I have less empathy for them or I view them as for entertainment but for people in my real life, I don’t think about the gossips about them.

            I’m learning a lot from you about how you handle your narc-ex. I have been thinking about my problems or issues and I think one of those is because I’m a very punitive person. I grew up that every little mistake that I made, I was punished with both verbal and physical lashing. And so when I see people get away with shit it just truly offends me deeply. I tend to strike back so fast without even thinking a lot of times just to make sure that I also land a blow. I would have been so screwed if I have ever dealt with a Greater who actually plans ahead. I think that you are very wise with teaching Emma to have a benign response that will not agitate Nancy. And the way you are handling your narc-ex is very smart and graceful. I do admire that. For some reason though, this might sound awful but I don’t mean this in a hateful way. Ever since my mom died, I noticed that I have been less easily angered. It almost feels like I have found some peace within me. But I do love her and I am praying for her.

            I will await about Emma’s mom. ❤️💕🌸

          77. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Of *course* you have love for your Mom…and it does NOT sound “awful” that you feel less anger & more peace since your Mom’s passing, darlin’…that sounds very normal and healthy! It’s HARD to deal with those with NPD, and I can imagine how very tough it is for that person being your own mother, as that is such a constant in your life. So there will understandably be a freeing you feel, and that is not a bad thing, at all!…which goes to the second thing I wanted to say to your reply…

            You feeling like you need to “land the first” blow, at those times you described, makes total sense to me. It’s like you are sometimes on-guard, like a meerkat on a mound, watching out for danger (What?? No cute meerkat emoji?) In reality, you were living out psychological warfare, in your own home, growing up…so “striking first” is probably like a reflex for you, at times — like self-protection. The fact you are so aware of it now, & want to make changes, is to your credit.🙌 I bet you will see more & more change in this area — the more time that goes by. ❤

            Really, growing up with parental examples, we absorb a lot…and then, as Empaths, I think we either consciously choose to NOT be a certain way — or we sort of getting molded in certain ways, until we realize & want to change. For me, my Mom (somewhat better today) was so horribly judgmental of others — and she could really look down on others (talk about someone who judged SO much by appearances and accomplishments, lordy!)…so I just hated, hated that so much about how she’d treat others, while I was growing up, and it hurt – just to SEE it. So I was determined to never be that kind of person. Oh, but I didn’t get off free & clear (ha) — my Mom is not exactly easy-going & was/is highly perfectionistic, about so much…so *partly* due to aspects of that, which made her very harsh, guilt is my Achilles Heel; I have to conscientiously work at freeing myself of the false guilt…which was already baked into my “Caroline Cake” when I dated the narc…so you know he picked up on & used that!🐍

          78. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine for your kind words. ❤️ You are so right about us getting molded in certain ways. I am sorry that you experienced that with your mom. Thank goodness she is not NPD but it is still very difficult for you to grow up and witness her demeanor that you know hurts people. She wasn’t doing it for fuel but she didn’t have as much empathy as you have to understand how it affects the people on the receiving end. And she didn’t realize how it was affecting you as well. That is why it was an important decision for me to go NC twitch my stepdaughters because their behaviors are not only affecting me and my husband but now there are the two little kids that could witness the power struggle between us and I wouldn’t be modeling the best behavior for them. I could totally understand what you are saying about the guilt that you developed because of seeing how judgmental and harsh your mom was to others. You were a bystander and you couldn’t do anything. That is a painful situation to be in. So you may have overcompensated when you became an adult to become the opposite of her and so the narc saw that tendency of you to be very accepting (and trusting) and kind (polar opposite of your mom) and he took advantage of it.
            I remember this disturbing and tragic story written by a Filipino American about his family’s slave in the US who was a Filipina that his parents brought with them when they migrated to the US. You can feel the pain in his words as he described the way that his mom treated their slave which they called lola which is the Tagalog word for grandma. Kids get affected not just by the way they are treated but also the way their parents treat everyone and each other. I also carried the same guilt as I have witnessed my mom abuse my cousins. I remember sitting at the stairs watching her drag them by their hair and curse them and call them horrible names.

            By the way, here is a link to the article. It is a really sad story and it got me crying for days. His mom is a narcissist I think. And he is an empath.

            Also I want to ask but it’s ok if you don’t feel like answering, is your mom sister’s with Emma’s mom?

            I might be really slow with answering back this weekend because I will be out and about with family but I’m looking forward to read from you.


          79. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, I’m interested to read that~sounds mighty sad but also powerful. I’ll be out for good portions of the weekend, so I’ll probably not be back online until Monday too. Have a wonderful fall weekend!🍁🌻🌼 Oh, I almost forgot, your question…Emma’s Mom is on my Dad’s side of the family (she’s one of his first cousins)…and their Mom is an obvious Empath (as is my Dad–a rare gem). The plot really thickens on Emma’s Mom though, despite being an Empath. Their abusive Dad (narc suspect) left them all, when the kids were in elementary school. Speaking of Emma, when she calls this weekend, I hope I don’t accidentally call her Emma…the name actually suits her!😂

          80. MommyPino says:

            Haha I hope 🤞 so too Caroline is fine. Although she would probably just think that you accidentally called her one of your friend’s name. Emma is definitely a great name for an empath. I almost named my daughter Emma.

            I can’t wait to read more about Emma and Nancy’s story. It sounds like their dad leaving was the major lack of control environment for Nancy. It also depends on how her mom handled the whole thing after the separation.

            Thank you and I also hope that you have a wonderful fall weekend. ❤️💕😘🍁

          81. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP✨
            I hope your weekend was great~mine was lovely. I did talk to Emma too – and I didn’t accidentally call her “Emma” – but I kept thinking it. 😉 Let me know what you’d like to hear first…the backstory of their upbringing with their father, until he left/Nancy’s earlier odd behaviors I noticed as a child (I’ll keep it as concise as I can, so it won’t take 4 posts!), or about Emma’s Mom/dynamic with her girls. I’ll be back on later this eve.🤸‍♀️🙂

          82. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine! 💕

            I had a great weekend. I took the kids to Apple Hill and we did a lot of fun stuff. My husband didn’t go with us because he had to fix the fence in our yard and he thought that there will be lots of people but there wasn’t. It was really nice. So he will go with us next week. Kids love going there during fall. Yesterday I also printed out my homeschooling materials and laminated them. My son goes to public school but I like to supplement with Charlotte Mason style of learning. This week we are going to revisit the letter A and our apple activities. We already did the letters last year so I wouldn’t have to make as many materials.

            I’m really curious about Emma’s mom and her dynamic with her kids. I want to know how an empath parent like us might inadvertently create a breeding ground environment for narcissism like what happened to Nancy. 🧐. But I’m obviously speculating so I will wait for the story. I’m glad that your weekend was lovely and that you got to talk more with Emma. 💕

          83. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Your Apple Hill outing sounds like so much fun! 🤗So…in honor of apple week at your house, I suggest Apple Jacks for breakfast…apple pie for dessert…apple/cinnamon-scented jar candles…and reading the kiddos “Isaac Newton & His Apple.” Sorry – is that too much apple-ness?😂 But I love your outing & your pulling it into their learning in such fun ways – very cool for school!😎

            I’ll send this along & work next on the Emma/Nancy/their Mom post…after I wash my doggie, who got into a bit of mud.

          84. MommyPino says:

            Ha he! I love your ideas Caroline is fine! I have never had an apple jack and will look that up. So far, the only cooking activity that I have for them is making an apple tart together. We’re also making an apple scented play doh. I will also make them count the seeds in an apple and try to put as many apples on top of their heads after we read Ten Apples Up on Top. We’ll also do a little science and learn about the life cycle of an apple tree and the parts of an apple fruit. And also an apple tasting board where we try different kinds of apples and we check in the cards that I laminated if they are tart, juicy, and sweet. They will probably be very tiered of apples after this week lol.

            Have fun with giving your doggie a wash! We are still looking for dogs to adopt but so far we’re not lucky finding the right breed. We will probably end up just buying one. My husband wants a breed that rarely barks so that makes it a little bit more challenging because a lot of small dogs for adoption bark a lot.

          85. Caroline-is-fine says:


            I just saw all your fun-filled apple activities on the other post~so much better than mine! 🤗 BTW, I’m with your husband, on the “no-bark” dog!🐶 Onto my novel (sorry in advance, HG)…

            Okay…so Emma’s Dad was this tall, dark, handsome (business successful) charmer, but he could be totally different behind the scenes; I later learned he was verbally abusive (really bad stuff) to all of them at times, and he’d fly also into rages. So although I never saw the abuse first-hand (which later became physical toward their Mom, toward the end), it was definitely a household where I picked up a “vibe” that something was going on…hushed voices/tear-stained faces/the girls staying with us at our home for a time, etc. My Dad intervened a lot to try to help get his cousin out of that, and he was really concerned about the girls. ❤Anyway, one day, their father – who I later learned from Emma was cheating on their Mom the whole time — took up with this other woman and left…which was good, for all of them. Onto the Mom (I’ll call her Joy)…

            Joy is the most free-spirit woman I’ve ever known; she has a hippie sort of spirt to her, and she’s very non-judgy & giving…she’s always been a beautiful woman, and let’s just say that after the Prince Charming husband turned into a frog, she picked miserable toad after toad, in men. Talk about a very shady cast of characters! Even as a child, I saw it as very strange. She’s finally sworn off men (I say that’s good, in her case), but the parade of scoundrels in the girls’ early lives could not have been good for them, and I know Emma confided how she felt about it to me, even just as kids; besides my Dad, who Emma adores & has always looked up to as a male role model, Emma’s saving grace was a widowed aunt who Emma ended up living with from sixth grade on – she was very loved and cared for by her. Nancy stayed with her Mom, and now lives close by her…it’s hard to know what factors play directly into development of narcissism, but Nancy appeared to have issues early on to me, even when things were relatively good with her father, in earlier years.

            The issue now, for Emma, is perhaps because Nancy stayed with her Mom through thick and thin, they have a dynamic that is more like sisters – and Joy continually makes excuses for Nancy. It’s like she doesn’t *want* to see Nancy has issues. Joy is one of those people who always wants to put a positive spin on everyone, which is a lovely quality…until it’s just not truthful. I think it’s mainly to keep the peace, and Joy is empathetic to absolutely everyone, and I think it makes it easy to manipulate her…so I’m afraid Nancy may have done a lot of that. You can imagine how unsupported Emma feels now, in trying to break through to her Mom, to talk openly with her. As off/flaky as Joy sounds in her big decision-making (and she IS avoidant with problems), she also has a huge heart. She’s the type to truly give you her last dollar – take home any stray animal and care for it – and do anything to cheer you up. When you hurt, she hurts. She’s also generous to a fault. She has a very fun personality and is very resilient, in her own wacky way.

            Anyway, this is the general scenario Emma is up against…not easy, and she is a very sweet, sensitive person. In our last convo, we actually did a lot of talking about logical thinking. She’s very grounded and has a strong logical side to her, so that is a real plus she is drawing from now. When we finished talking, she said, “You always know how to calm me, in a really solid and gentle way, just like your Dad.”

            Well, of course we do! It’s ’cause my Dad & I are both Empaths, Emma — so are you!😂 No, I didn’t say that. I’m keeping it simple – I don’t want to overwhelm her.

          86. MommyPino says:

            Wow thank you for explaining. It all makes sense now and I agree that Emma is in a really tough situation. It’s really interesting. I can see a little bit how Nancy became a narcissist. She had the genetic predisposition and the lack of control environment was from their abusive dad, their dad leaving them and their mom (although she loved her) did not provide a stable environment for her. I also don’t think that it is healthy for parents to treat their kids as their friend. Kids need an authority figure to feel secure. Thankfully for Emma, she didn’t have the narcy genes and she had your dad and family and her other aunt to provide stability for her. That is so sad for everyone in the family, even for Joy because now she has raised someone who might be a snake towards her too despite of her unconditional love for Nancy. And it’s really hard for Emma because her relationship with her mom is really affected. She is very fortunate to have you and actually not all empaths will be able to handle it well but you are doing a wonderful job being there for her as affirmed by what she told you. Is their dad still in the picture? How bad is Nancy’s narcissism? Is she malignant?

          87. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, MP. 🌻I feel honored to be there for her…I agree that being “bestest friends” with your kids spells trouble…having fun & being appropriately open with them, sure; but parents need to parent – and also not have their kids carry their emotional baggage. That’s so unfair & unhealthy.

            No, their father (I don’t want to even call him a “Dad”) is long gone…as far as I know, they never saw him again & still have no idea where he even is. I’m still learning about Nancy’s narcy traits, but how she maneuvers today sounds very calculated to me, and she is VERY intelligent (IQ)…and, like I said, even in my childhood, with what seemed like pathological lying & calculated acts (she stole my toe shoes🩰!), she gave me chills a few times.🥶

          88. MommyPino says:

            Yikes, I hope that she’s not a Greater. My MR half sister was a pain in the butt but she wasn’t malignant. She did a lot of bad things to me but she did them under her belief that she was a victim. She wasn’t a victim narc but being a MR also made her have quite a bit of victim complex.
            It sounds like Joy has inadvertently help create a monster. I can understand that it’s not fun for empaths to discipline and call out bad behavior from kids. It’s confrontational and kids also manipulate and guilt you into letting them do whatever they want. Disciplining is actually my least favorite part of being a parent but it’s crucial. My five year old and two year old tell me, “You don’t love me!” while they are crying when I let them know that they can’t keep behaving badly and it is hard to watch for empaths but parents need to be consistent. But I think that Joy will also not likely to change anymore so it is up to Emma to protect herself and unfortunately she will just have to accept that she doesn’t need to convince Joy. Thank goodness you are there for Emma! ❤️❤️❤️

          89. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Totally agree with you on discipline with kids…Joy really did not seem to think that discipline had anything to do with being a Mom🤦‍♀️…and yepper, that Emma should not even *try* to convince her Mom about the error of Nancy’s ways. We talked about that, and I was telling Emma she has to look at her relationship with her Mom as totally separate & not even talk about Nancy…just be herself/live her truth & not be defensive or argue points, even if her Mom brings up things about Nancy, hard as it may be to listen to🤐. The character of people usually does comes to light, if you just rise above it & don’t tangle yourself into knots over it…easier said than done at times, but I think most people do end up seeing for themselves what’s going on, over time — even if they ignore, placate or paper over it. However, anyone ever “getting” that Nancy is a narcissist (if she is/it appears so) is another matter entirely…but in this case, perhaps it does not matter, if Emma is separating herself from Nancy & just doesn’t allow herself to take the bait — from Nancy or anyone swirling around Nancy. If you feel clean & clear on how you conduct yourself, that’s what matters.

            Oh, I gotta tell you the brief, weird story behind Nancy taking my toe shoes🩰…I know, it DOES sounds rather creepy!🧟‍♀️ It’s probably not as creepy as what you may be thinking (no weird voodoo thing or something, lol!)–but it still was creepy, as in I think she did it in anger/control reason + I had a dance recital the next weekend, and the toe shoes were broken in really well for that (older pair)…and having to get a new pair to perform in, last-minute, really could mean a broken ankle.😓

            So…Did little Caroline-is-fine ever get her toe shoes back? Stay tuned!😂

          90. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I was in the middle of typing a response when my screen refreshed. I’m not sure if I unknowingly hit the submit button. I can’t remember where I was in my comment when it happened so I will just wait if it gets posted and if it does I will add a comment to finish it. 💕❤️

          91. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I just saw that none of it showed up.
            I was saying that I think that you and Emma are on the right track and you are doing a great job being her friend and family. Just being there to listen and believe her is so helpful to keeping her strong 💪 so she is indeed blessed to have you for support.
            I think I’m starting to get now why she stole your toe shoes. It was indeed sinister if she did it to sabotage you and cause a possible injury. That is indeed creepy for a young girl to have that malice. It slightly reminds me of Omen.😐

          92. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oh nooooo…The Omen!😨😱😳😰😵 I’ll be back later this eve to tell ya what happened…it’s probably both creepy & a little bit funny. Like a cross between “The Omen” &…um…uh🤔…I can’t think of a comedy where a ballerina ends up triumphing against evvvil.😂

          93. MommyPino says:

            Haha have you seen Leap? My family loves that movie. It’s animated though. It’s about an orphan ballerina who triumphed against a narcissistic ballerina with a matrinarc. It’s a really good movie. It’s not comedy but it’s a feel good movie and some parts are funny so it should lighten up the Omen vibe lol. 😊💕

          94. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Wow, there really *is* such a movie🤗~too funny!

            I’m so sorry I didn’t tell my little toe shoe story last night…my day was rather hectic & long (I have 2 separate careers, & it was a day of both…a little bit like “when two narcs collide” – but it was “when two careers collide”)…so around 10 p.m., I was all settled in bed, listening to relaxing music on my Tablet & was going to return a few emails and come back on the site too…and I fell asleep! 😴My alarm just woke me, so I’ll now be getting ready for work again…but today is a shorter day, so I’ll be able to get back to the toe shoes later – and I won’t fall asleep!👌

            I hope your apple week is going A-OK😊…🎵”Apple Jacks, Apple Jacks…8 great vitamins – that’s what it packs…really delicious, crunchy too — Kellogg’s Apple Jacks!”🎵


          95. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Caroline is fine. We went apple picking yesterday because it was minimum day so I was able to pick up my son earlier. Our local bishop’s wife invited us to pick their apples in their cute little orchard. When we got home we made an apple crisp together. I decided that it’s easier for the kids to make instead of an apple tart. Today we will make the play dough but I wasn’t able to find an apple scented oil but I found an edible cinnamon scent which they like. I have been lighting apple scented candles as well. 😊

            Sounds like you had a very lovely restful evening. 💕 No need to apologize. We all need some self care especially after a very long day. I will wait for the details on your story when you have more time, no hurries at all. 😘. I hope that you have a wonderful and happy day at work! 💕❤️

          96. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I want apple crisp & cinnamon-scented play dough too!!!😭Here’s your baby bottle, Caroline: 🍼…But seriously, it sounds like such great fun! 😊And now, for the flipside to your very charming childhood day there…The OMEN childhood😂…(what a terrible transition)…

            Ok, so once in a blue moon, my parents would let me stay overnight at Emma’s house (we’re close to the same age, & Nancy is 3 years older)…but they’d only let me when there were no creepy males hanging around their house, which was seldom. So one time when I spent the night, I brought along my toe shoes, because Emma wanted to see me show her some of the dance we (a group) would be performing the next weekend. So we were in their kitchen that night, and after I got done showing her, Emma asked if she could try on the toe shoes, and I said, “Sure – we can see if they fit.” So she’s sitting down, & I’m helping her put them on – when Nancy suddenly appears (she always seemed to be lurking around…I only have brothers, so I just thought all her eavesdropping was sisterly stuff)…Nancy always acted nice toward me – but she was usually pretty snarky with Emma, so I had this peacemaker kind of role, when they got in fights.

            So Nancy says: “Don’t let her try those on! She’ll ruin them, just like she’s ruined a ton of my stuff!” And Emma started to get upset & retort back, so I just touched her shoulder and then told Nancy it was fine, and that I’d help her stand on them. And that was really it. Nancy left the kitchen…and Emma had fun having them on for about 5 minutes, before they started to hurt – end of story. So I thought!…

            I was a pretty organized kid, and I did take care of my things, so when we were done with the toe shoes, I took them up to Emma’s room and put them back in my overnight bag.

            So the next morning, we get up – have breakfast – and Joy is going to be driving me & Emma the two hours back to my house…and — you guessed it — as I pack everything back into my bag…the toe shoes are gone. Gone…gone…gone, I tell you.

            Rut roh. This is gonna be a thing!

            Stay tuned…to Part 2. (Don’t worry — I’ll only make it a 3-part story).

          97. MommyPino says:

            Haha I can’t wait. I’m really curious why Nancy would do that. So true about Narcs eavesdropping by the way. Both my mom and sister did that a lot. They also like to ask questions about what you are doing and why you are doing it (my stepdaughters and both mom and sister were like that). When I’m with a narc I almost have this weird feeling of not being able to relax because I might do something that I will need to explain lol. I can’t wait for the part two but no hurries. 💕

          98. Caroline-is-fine says:

            That would be unnerving…like you’re being interrogated. I swear that Empaths have a Sixth Sense on natural curiosity/interest in others (when being asked questions) and those who are on a fact-finding mission for setting traps/bad purpose. Looking back, I don’t recall Nancy ever even asking questions, but she often seemed to be listening in, like a little spy…a creepy little spy. 🦇Lol

            I’ll be able to knock out parts 2 & 3 by Sunday for sure…unless HG does the “freeze🥶 frame”~then they might not go through until later.

            TGIF! 🎉Have a really great one, girl!🥰 Are we moving onto “B” next week?😎

          99. MommyPino says:

            Haha Caroline is fine, I don’t know if I can finish A for apple this week but I will try. 🤞. I might have a two week A marathon though most likely. Yesterday we just had a kick back day and watched Turbo after he did his homework for school. We will do the play dough thing today for sure.

            So true about the narcs’ fact finding mission. Although sometimes it’s also their way of getting attention or feeling power over you because in a way by making you answer them about what you are doing and why, there is an underlying energy that you are accountable to them. And also sometimes it’s because of their innate paranoia that you are trying to compete with them etc.

            Haha can’t wait for the continuation of the Omen childhood story! 😊

          100. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Those are really good points…you know, I never consider the aspect of a narc trying to compete with me…I think it may be because I’m not competitive-natured with others, so it doesn’t even occur to me. I compete with myself, if that makes sense…and, frankly, I’m a bit of a handful!😂 What I mean is in trying to do my best – or improve in areas where I feel led to, but it’s most often with deeper issues, not surface stuff…it really helps to hear all your thoughts and everyday tidbits on narcissists, with all your personal experiences with them as an Empath (in addition to the knowledge from HG), because I realize then that I’ve missed some of the nuances on the behaviors and attitudes of narcs…it’s enlightening, and it helps me understand things that would maybe never occur to me.

            I’m off work until Monday, and I have a really fun rest of the afternoon/eve planned today! Right now, I’m about to head to a friend’s house, to bring her a fall wreath I made her, for her front door, for her birthday. Then a group of us are headed off to a really pretty nature-filled fall adventure…wish I could specify more, but I try to be extra cautious on some stuff on here…I really can’t imagine that the narc would come on here (he’s too self-absorbed, for starters!), but there was one day when he said something (not common) almost verbatim to what HG had said on here…and it wigged me out a bit. In fact, the next day, I engaged HG on here and used a rather odd word that’s rarely used, and it was to see if the narc would use it — IF he was reading here and messing with me😂. He did not repeat it…and all I really did was probably confuse HG.😔 And mess with myself.🤪

            Well, I’m off for fun! Will be back later, gator.🐊 It’s totally A-okay (<ha) that you won't be up to "B" by next week.😂 I'm like a little kid!🤸‍♀️

          101. MommyPino says:

            Haha I love your childlike happy spirit! It’s contagious! I’m glad that I am able to add some info or insight. I actually wasn’t originally competitive in nature before I met the MR narcs here in the US. My mom never competed with me. I joined competitions and loved winning but not because I was able to beat anyone but because I felt that winning means I did really well. The narcs though, especially my stepdaughters have competed with me in a very negative way in almost every aspect of my life that they can. I love wearing scarves and then my older stepdaughter started wearing scarves and her younger sister would declare with full conviction and authority that no one wears scarves better than her older sister. I made a really good stuffing/dressing for Thanksgiving and the next year my older stepdaughter brings a stuffing/dressing and the younger stepdaughter exclaims that her sister is the dressing queen. When I enrolled my son to gymnastics, she enrolled her daughter too and she had a monologue about why her daughter’s gymnastics school is so much better than my son’s. When they can’t compete they use a third person. For example I gave birth and my older SD still doesn’t have a kid, she glared at me when she caught me mix feeding with formula and said that all of her friends breastfeed full time and they gave birth naturally and they all make their baby foods from scratch using organic ingredients etc. etc. So that I have noticed with them is there always have to be a some type of competition and they need to be the one on top and if they can’t, they know someone who is better than me. She even started competing with my kids. She was in her early thirties when my daughter was born and when my daughter was six months old my husband lovingly told my stepdaughter that our baby reminds him of her when she was a baby and he was carrying her in his arms. She immediately turned the sweet moment sour by getting angry and saying, “ I was never fat like that! I have always been skinny!” My daughter was not fat at all by the way, she was I think around 60th percentile in weight and pretty long like 90+ percentile but she had chubby cheeks and fat neck because she was 6 months old. It’s ridiculous I thought that she has a necessity to compete with a little baby. But that’s how competitive they are. And I’m so happy that I am able to get my kids away from that because I don’t want them to be competitive in that way. I want them to be more like how you describe yourself. I want their motivation to be more intrinsic and they want to do well for the sake of doing well and leaving their signature on their work and not to beat other people.

            Sorry for my long monologue! Anyway, sounds like you are going to have an amazing day with your friends. Enjoy! 💕😊

          102. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Continuing “The Omen”🦇…Part 2😱

            Right as we’re leaving their house to drive me back home, Joy gave me a Tupperware of cookies to take back, from their freezer in the kitchen, so I zipped open my overnight bag to put them in, moving a few things around…and right away, I saw that my toe shoes were not on the side of my bag, where I had put them…I took everything out of my bag & laid all on top of the kitchen table. No toe shoes! I looked at Emma – but I already knew her answer before I asked – she hadn’t taken them out of my bag. I knew she’d never do that, without asking. But I *knew* I put them in there. So…

            Emma and I run up to her room and start looking around…Joy comes up, & joins in searching too…we just keep looking through everything, and rechecking…nothing. In the meantime, Nancy had left her own bedroom & called from downstairs that she was heading next door to her friend’s house (where she was staying while we were gone), but Joy calls back that I lost my toe shoes – and asks Nancy to come back up to look for them in her room…I remember thinking, “I didn’t even go in her room, so they can’t be in there,” but Nancy yells back, “ok”…then Emma and I just start thinking about everything we were doing all night, and we walk into the bathroom & a few other places, checking everywhere…I eventually started to get teary, feeling like they were just gone…my toe shoes were a bit like my string instruments – special to me, so I was upset, but I also didn’t want to make everyone else feel bad…then I remembered about the dance recital, and I knew I had to find them. You don’t just grab a new pair of toe shoes – hop up — and dance in a recital! While Joy and Emma were still re-checking drawers, I went downstairs to check, because we watched a TV show in the basement…as I headed down the hall, I come closer to Nancy’s room, and I hear Joy call out to her, “Nancy! Are you looking for them in your room?”…and right as I get up to her door, Nancy yells: “Yes, I’m looking!” But she’s not…

            She’s sitting on her bed, looking out the window, her back to me…and she’s got her legs outstretched, crossed at the ankles, and she’s just sitting there – twirling a piece of her long, blonde hair. I totally froze, standing in her doorway, just staring at her, like I’m looking at an alien force. 👽I got a creeped-out feeling – you know, when you feel like something is way wrong, in the pit of your stomach. 🤢I stood there for a bit longer, to see if she would move. She didn’t. I didn’t want her to see me, so I quietly left & headed down the hallway, to the door that goes down to the basement.

            I looked around down there for a bit – found nothing – went back upstairs. It bugged me about Nancy, but I hadn’t really processed it yet. We never found the toe shoes that day.😥 Joy & Emma felt awful, saying they knew they’d find them. Joy gave me a big hug and said, “Honey, toe shoes don’t just disappear – they’re here somewhere. We’ll keep looking & I’ll bring them to you as soon as we find them.” They both have such big hearts…I know they tore that house apart all week. As for me, I waited until I got home to cry about it…

            And that whole next week, I worked to break in a new pair of toe shoes, because it was a group dance, and it would mess everyone up if I was pulled out…I think my instructor was worried about me, because she kept checking my shoes when we practiced & asking me if I felt confident in them. I didn’t, but I told her it’d be fine.

            Right before we went out on stage, one of the toe shoes just didn’t feel like the other one, so I sat down & took it off and gently bent it, like I had been doing all week with both…but this time, I heard a small crack. Not good!

            So I danced with one toe shoe too stiff – and one unnaturally bowed…I *was* lucky I didn’t break my ankle.😂

            Stay tuned to Part 3…the reappearance of the toe shoes…it’s twisted!…somewhat funny!…but slightly triumphant, in the way only an Empath would understand.

          103. MommyPino says:

            Wow Caroline is fine, You have always been really kind. How old were you when this happened? That was really thoughtful of you to hold your tears until you got home and to understand that Joy and Emma were doing their best and were also upset that your toe shoes were gone. You seemed very conscientious and kind from an early age and even thinking about how it would impact the other dancers in the group. I’m glad that it all ended up well and you didn’t get injured. It is obvious that Nancy already had signs of having no empathy at that age although she was three years older, I’m thinking she was still very young when this happened.

          104. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP💛
            I was 9 (Emma was very close to turning 9)…and Nancy was 12. Since Emma has brought out all these new aspects about Nancy, all those odd/”off” things & my creeped-out feelings regarding her in childhood have clicked together for me – like a sped-up, replayed movie in my mind…and on top of all the knowledge gained here, it has been like: “Holy Narcdom!!”🥺

            I got a special surprise yesterday, from a special someone, so I was out of town for a good part of the day…the conclusion to the zany toe shoe disappearance shall be coming soon, and I also saved your other comment to reply back to as well. 😊Hope your weekend was really great!🧡

            Off to work…just another maniac Monday. Actually, Monday is my fav day of the week…I know, a bit strange. But I like the feeling of starting anew each week (and the structure), and I love what I do, so I’m a “I ❤ Monday” girl. 😎

          105. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I’m glad that you had a wonderful weekend. 💕. I had a really pleasant weekend as well. I helped my husband finish fixing the fence last Saturday so we were able to go to a train ride and a historical park yesterday. It is wonderful to do something that you love for a living. I will await the rest of the details on your childhood story. I remember myself when I was 12 and actually at that time, some of my narcissistic behaviors earlier in my life was already deteriorating and my trajectory towards becoming an empath was getting more clearer. I agree that a lot of the past experiences are now seen with a different goggles after everything that we now know regarding narcissism through HG’s stories and articles. I hope that you have the most wonderful day and week!! 💕

          106. Caroline says:

            I’m Caroline-is-sad today…I got word that someone I cherish passed away recently – someone who was both an inspiration and like a grandfather to me. I came home and took out the last wonderful, handwritten letter he sent me, which was written only 2 months before he passed away. What he wrote was so loving and touching, so I was in tears of sorrow, yet a wonderful peace also flooded me, as I read the letter again…he had left behind such powerful, comforting, motivational, affirming words to me … his death was sudden, but it almost seemed like he knew it would be his last letter to me. There’s no doubt in my mind he is in Heaven, but he was so rare, so I’m sad for the world to lose his bright light…besides being such a caring human being to many, he’s done groundbreaking medical work with/for children, yet has always been so humble, despite his great intelligence, national recognition and accolades…as for me, I just loved *him* — and his amazing heart of gold.💛

            I will be offline until I’ve better processed this…which will take time. But I can hear him now…what he once said to me, when I lost a dear friend: “We take the time we need to grieve for what is lost, but then we must carry on with all that remains. There is always more to do, and such wonderful things, sweetheart.”💞

          107. Kim e says:

            Carloine is Fine,
            I just wanted to pass on my heartfelt condolenses to you. Many hugs to you.
            (I am off site for a while. Will check in with you when I return.)
            Hugs smoochies and a little love

          108. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, Kim.💙 I’m glad you’re doing what is best for you…it’s good to know yourself well, and to adapt as you need to do right now. I’ll be thinking of you. 💙

            “You are braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.” -Sir Christopher Robin

          109. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I’m so sorry for your loss. It is heartbreaking to lose someone so precious and you respect and look up to. You are so blessed to have him make an impact in your life and who you are as a person. He obviously cherished you and saw how valuable and precious you are as well as evidenced in him taking the time to write you those letters. I totally understand the need to go offline. I am sending you love and hugs and prayers. Take care and thank you for the wonderful conversations. ❤️

          110. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you so much for your kind, thoughtful words from the heart, hon❤…it really meant a lot to me. I decided to take part of the day off work, just because I felt like I needed it, to absorb this news…so I went to a grocery store to pick up a few things, including a sympathy card for his (now) widow…and I was just feeling very low-key & teary while in there, like that sting of death feeling…it still doesn’t seem totally real to me.

            Then I got up to the cashier & placed my things on the belt, and the cashier brightly says, “Oh, hi! How’s it going?”, and I smile at her (avoid that question) and say, “Hi there, how have you been? Ready for fall?” (I’m at this grocery store a lot – it’s right by my house)…I go over to the debit card reader and insert my card, and instead of answering my question, she bursts out with: “I just love you! You are the sweetest person — you always make me feel so good, just coming through my line. We’ve all talked about it.”

            “We’ve all talked about it?” Huh? Who? Caroline-is-sad is now like Caroline-is-shocked 😮 ..and I’m feeling shy-like embarrassed…but she is so nice, so it also warms my heart. I said, “Aw, thank you…you guys are so great — I love coming in here…and I’m certainly in here enough!”

            We chit-chat and laugh about a few things, and then I grab my bags and start heading out, and she calls out, “See ya next time!” I turn, wave, smile, and say, “Next time!”

            I get out into the parking lot and think, “What just happened?” 😂 I guess as Empaths, we just can’t stop being who we are, which is reason enough to smile. Maybe we give things, in little moments, even with total strangers, that we never even know…unless someone kindly says, like today.

            So let that encourage us, one & all. #EmpathsShedLight🙌

            I also think I’ve got a guardian angel who wants to remind me I’m never *that* far away from being joyful again.😉

            I’ll be back, MP.🥰 Maybe you’ll be up to “B” by then. 😁

          111. MommyPino says:

            Aww I love that story Caroline is loved. ❤️ Thank you for sharing. I am 💯 certain that you have a guardian angel who is always so proud of you. When my dad died there were certain moments as well that made me cheer up and made me think that it’s either my guardian angel or him making me feel that it will all be ok. Little instances like when my sister and I bagged his clothes to send to Goodwill and I had this last minute desire to keep the jacket that he wore when he took me to see snow for the first time in my life but we have already sent out to Goodwill 90% of his clothes. I looked at his closet and there were a few jackets left and one of them looked like it and when I double checked with our pictures together it was indeed the jacket that he wore so I was able to keep it.

            It is amazing how much we affect the people around us. Thank you for reminding me that. It is actually a powerful thought to keep when we are going through something and not feeling very good about ourselves. We make a difference everyday and we don’t even know it most of the time.

            Haha yes I will be on B next week. We have been doing well actually. We were already able to do the play dough and it smells so amazing. They both love it and today as soon as my son got home from school he asked if he could play with it. 🥰💕

            I hope that you have a peaceful time offline and I will await the part 3 of the toe shoes story when you are ready to come back here. 😘💕

          112. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Aw, I💖your sweet jacket story…you have a snow angel watching over you.❄🤗❄


            🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 (Faith Hill: “There You’ll Be”)

          113. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine, that is a really sweet and beautiful song. It is perfect for how I feel about him. ❤️ 💕

          114. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP🌼
            I’m traveling today, so Part 3 is on hold a bit more…but are we up to “B” yet? Are we?? What are we doing?? Er, I mean, what are the darlings doing?😊

            The possibilities are endless…
            -Blueberry-scented jar candle
            -Blue balloons
            -Bananas & blueberries & blackberry jam & banana bread
            -Binoculars for bird-gazing
            -Book about bats or bees or butterflies
            -Butterfly kisses
            -Butterscotch candies
            -Bach or Beethoven
            -Barbeque or burgers
            -Big Bird
            -And, as always…Behaving!🥰🤗😇

          115. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine! 🍁🍂🐿

            We are done with A but we are in F instead of B. I thought that it would be B too but I’m following a homeschooling curriculum and they don’t have the letters in the order of the alphabet. I’m not really sure why they made F after A and B after F but I’m just going to follow it. But I will take note of your B ideas. They are wonderful!

            We don’t have electricity today because our power company had shut down power to 500k to 800k houses in three phases and we are one of the counties that lost power since the first phase. They did it to prevent fires. We don’t know if this will be a regular thing but a lot of people have lost money which means California lost a lot of tax income so hopefully they will do something about it. Our neighbors have generators and they have been buzzing since we woke up. We decided to go to the aquarium since my husband cannot work today and school is closed. So when we got there I asked my son what letter the word fish starts with and he got it right! Earlier tonight the kids had so much fun with flashlights which he knew also starts with F. We read Ten Little Fish with our flashlights which they enjoyed and I actually took some cool pictures of. We also made shadow puppets and the kids loved it. We all sucked at it but I was able to make a decent bird and dog. My husband was complimenting me with my good idea even though I suck at it and then I caught him googling on his phone hand shadow puppets and practicing it. He’s super competitive. His face was funny when I caught him and he was still denying and then when he thought he got it he was so excited to show us an elephant which was the ugliest elephant with the most disproportional trunk and head and then he realized when he looked at his phone that he was supposed to used two fingers for the trunk. It was a fun day even though we don’t have power and therefore we don’t have water too because we have well water with electric pump. Hopefully the power will be back tomorrow. Tomorrow we will play with their farm animals sets since farm starts with F too lol. And on Saturday I will take them to a U-pick farm to pick vegetables.

            Have safe and pleasant travels! I will try to behave and stay out of trouble until you get back online. 😎😉

          116. HG Tudor says:

            Seems to me they are doing something about it, preventing devastating fires. Lose some revenue through temporary electricity shutdowns or risk massive damage to the economy (the recovery of which has to be supported through expenditure of tax income) – not a difficult decision.

          117. MommyPino says:

            It does seem like the most logical short term solution. Hopefully they can figure out a way to fix this so that this doesn’t have to be the a regular way of life here.

          118. HG Tudor says:

            I am sure they will do so, MP.

          119. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You’re so cute~I meant your children should behave, not you.😂 You’re perfectly well behaved…you’re polite, caring & thoughtful. However, you also seem to a have a strong sense of self/your own mind & will go against the tide if you feel so convicted, which is a most admirable quality.💫

            I didn’t realize those measures were going on in counties in California, so I found a good article about it a few minutes ago, and I’m going to read up on it later tonight. We are not a selfish state — we want to know all about the “goings on” in our other beloved states!😉

            How ingenious, with your flashlight use. 🙌And that’s too funny, about your husband competing with you for the best elephant! 🐘 I wish I could say where I am at this very moment, but it’s too pinpointing to put on a blog; however, I’m staying overnight (one more night) in a suite at a hotel where I’m now tempted to look up shadow puppet animals and try some myself, late at night. Would that be too weird? Yes, Caroline — THAT WOULD BE TOO WEIRD. (Note that I didn’t say I *wasn’t* going to, despite the weirdness factor).🙄

            That’s interesting, with moving onto “F,” after “A.” I read something a ways back about the order of letters that teachers choose when introducing the alphabet. There were lots of schools of thought on it — but not one “correct” concept. I just looked it up for you, and the source I found indicated the letters M, S, F, R, N & L are sometimes chosen early on because they make “simple sounds” that are easy to stretch out and blend…so I guess it makes perfect sense that teachers can come up with lots of little words that are easy for students to grab onto, eh? Pretty cool.😎

            Well, busy day, so I better get going. Catch ya on the flipside…I’ll be practicing the trunk later.😂

          120. MommyPino says:

            Haha Caroline is fine, that wouldn’t be weird at all. I think it’s fun in a different way to travel alone and be in a hotel room alone because you are so free to do anything you want.

            You’re right about the letters because M is the next letter after B in the curriculum that I’m following. It uses phonics to teach reading so that’s probably why they are basing it on the sounds. He goes to public school and they use sight words. So far he doesn’t seem to get confused having two different approaches used. We got our power back at 4pm yesterday. I’m so glad that I prepared ahead of time and froze three cases of bottled water and distributed them in our freezer so our meat stayed frozen. School is still closed but we have been using his homeschool textbook to practice with F. He loves it and I enjoy seeing his improvement. I taught him a the alphabet last year but I didn’t teach him reading or writing because I decided to delay all of that so he can have as much free play time in his childhood as possible. So a lot of kids who went to preschool seem ahead of him but he’s catching up pretty quickly though and he doesn’t seem to mind. 🤸‍♂️

            Thank you for your kind words. You are an amazingly kind person and I’m so thankful for your time and I absolutely love your sense of humor. ❤️❤️❤️❤️

          121. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I ❤ your approach to learning. You’re letting your child *be* a child & also taking an individualized approach. I think that will pay off big dividends, short and long-term. So much of early learning is about our childhood experiences, and playing & exploring is a huge part of that learning. It seems like some of that natural childhood curiosity (which leads to our brains making important connections) is being dulled by too much “professional pressurized preschool.” I’m sure you know exactly what I mean by that. There’s not a thing wrong with early education if it’s about the fun of learning, making friends, gaining confidence, and new adventures…but if it’s a pressurized “race to the finish,” that seems a real shame that can backfire. There’s a lot to be said for a happy kid who is good with his own pace – and hasn’t lost his shine.🙌I think the tortoise & the hare story should maybe be read to *parents* more often!🐰🐢

            My parents believed in us experiencing lots, early on (travel & cultural events/sports/arts & music) – but not so much about formal scholastics in pre-K. You’ll be relieved to know almost every Saturday throughout elementary school, I’d go to the library & come home with the largest stack of books a girl could carry.🤗

            I love your resourceful water bottle freezing – I’ll remember that. And YAH, to your power back on! I saw this documentary series that was rerun a ways back…it was a pioneer experience, where couples or families committed to being put into “all things pioneer/from dusk to dawn” for a year. I thought that sounded so cool…I even mentioned it to the narcissist, who actually was game for it, not that I could find one & not like he could do it, with his career. But I remember him saying, “I’d do that with you in a heartbeat…but I give you 2 weeks before you’d be crying in a corner of a hayloft.” Funny – but irritating.😂 Then I think a month later, the power went out in my apartment complex for 3 days, and reality set in…maybe that whole pioneer thing is not so enticing. 🤔 I guess a narcissist can be right once in awhile.😎

            Can you imagine all the many ways my narcissist would have gotten fuel from me out on the ol’ prairie?😰

          122. MommyPino says:

            Lol I think he is right Caroline is fine, you would be crying in a corner of a hayloft in two weeks, but not because of the prairie lifestyle but because it’s easier for him to isolate you and pick on you for fuel. You’re totally right, he would absolutely love that and he’ll be able to easily come up with a million ways of getting fuel from you. 😖

            I used to love watching When Calls the Heart and I love the simplicity and innocence of it. I love the gowns and the hairstyles. I love their sense of community. And I love how women there are so ladylike and men are really masculine. The main male protagonist there likes to pick on the main female protagonist and I think that it’s super cute. I don’t know but I think that it’s cute when a guy picks on a woman that he loves but in a way that she always feel safe and cherished. ❤️

            I agree with you so much on education. I know someone who has been drilling her son to read and write when he was only three and his personality is very competitive already, like a little bully. But hopefully it will get better now that he’s also in kindergarten and gets more socialization. It’s too early to tell what could happen. I was really glad that my son was not in the same class as him because he’s really going to let my son know that he’s much ahead of my son. I’m actually shocked when I saw his mom’s FB post that he got a Student if the Month award after their first month in kindergarten. It seems weird that they are already giving out awards like that. I wonder how that could affect him where he might feel that he always need to get that award. I have been following the curriculum based in Charlotte Mason’s philosophy. I am not an expert about it and was not familiar with it until just a couple of years ago. But it seems like it’s the opposite of narcissistic parenting. Her first principle is, “Children are born persons. They are not born either good or bad, but with possibilities for good and for evil.” I think that it respects the child’s individuality and uniqueness from birth which narc parents usually don’t care about. Also she said, “ “The question is not,—how much does the youth know? when he has finished his education—but how much does he care? And about how many orders of things does he care? In fact, how large is the room in which he finds his feet set? And, therefore, how full is the life he has before him?” And that’s what I want for them, a full life. 💕

            The Tortoise and the Hare is indeed a great story and teaches a great lesson. Thank you for reminding that story to me too because when the school started and I saw how behind he was I was starting to worry and rethink my decision. Now I am surprised at how fast he’s learning and it’s turning out to be much easier than what I thought we were going to face. I should think of that story when I start to feel that way again. ❤️

            I’m still wondering though about what happened to your toe shoes. If Nancy was caught and what did she do with them. 🤔. But no hurries. I know that you are busy and traveling. Hope you are always safe and enjoying your time. 💕💕

          123. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m finally home now (hooray), and like a good Lutheran girl, I’m rushing to make the late-morning service😇…but I wanted you to know your long message just came through – I really enjoyed it! I’ll answer it back tomorrow, but tonight I’m finishing the toe shoes story! 🤗I really did not mean to make it a cliff hanger, so very sorry!😂

            So I leave you with these three elements, coming soon…in the Omen’s 😱conclusion:
            – Kerplunk!
            -Eagle Eye View
            – The Empath’s Gaze

          124. MommyPino says:

            Haha I can’t wait to find out how those elements played out! I hope that your day at church was nice. 💕😇

          125. Caroline-is-fine says:

            My whole day was really relaxing, thanks. 😊It’s so good to be home. I hope your day was really nice too!

            As promised…the horrifying OMEN CHILD😱conclusion:

            Tipping Point

            My next visit to Emma’s house was about a month later, along with my oldest brother (then a senior in high school) & his sweet girlfriend. Joy made us lunch when we arrived, and then Emma & I headed up to her room, to play board games, like we often did…

            So I was in Emma’s game closet, pulling out the games she wanted & handing them back to her. I chose “Battleship” & then turned to her and pleaded, “Kerplunk…please??” (In case you aren’t familiar, Kerplunk is a game with a plastic canister, where you take turns pulling out one pixie stick at a time from the canister, while trying to prevent a whole lot of marbles – resting on the sticks – from crashing down). She relented. We hardly ever played it, because she would get restless…probably because I took so blasted long on my turns, analyzing every angle, before I’d commit to pulling a stick.🥱

            Kerplunk was situated on the tippy top of the game shelf, so I stepped up into a shelf compartment & reached high – grabbed the big ol, flimsy carboard box by the sides – and as I pull it down, I started falling backwards, while still holding tightly onto the box, freaked out that the marbles were all going to come out. They didn’t. I landed half outside the closet with the box across my chest – sat up and placed the box on the floor…and while Emma was asking me if I was all right, I saw this little piece of pink ribbon stuck at the bottom of the box, dangling out from under the top…I slowly pulled the top up, more ribbon…I pulled off the top and looked inside…

            My toe shoes.🩰


            I just sat there, staring at them, one on each side…knowing it was not possible. Emma saw them. She was ecstatic, yelling, “Oh my gosh, your toe shoes! YOUR TOE SHOES!”” She grabbed one and started running down the stairs, proclaiming the good news…

            Before I knew it, Joy, Emma, my brother, his girlfriend and Nancy were all in Emma’s room. My brother pulled me up from the floor and said, “See? I knew you’d find them,” and then (common with him) pulled me up onto his shoulders, as he held onto my legs & swayed around like a nut (my oldest brother is protective, loving, great fun)…his girlfriend was all smiles, glancing up at me while listening to Emma jabber excitedly about the miraculous reappearance of the toe shoes…Joy was saying over & over how she just knew they’d turn up…and Nancy was off to the other side of the room, toward the back, with a strange look on her face.

            My brother’s tall, so I was crouched, but with a bird’s eye view of all of them…and ever since I had opened that game box, I was starting to process things…like flashback moments coming at me…and I was starting to get a really bad feeling that someone in that room was just a little bit…



            [I’ll complete the next section by tomorrow night & the very last one by Tuesday…I know, I know – I hate me for dragging this out too😂 – but I don’t want these to be so long that they won’t go through…and I’m almost done.]😊

          126. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi ya, MP🤸‍♀️
            I wrote & sent the next OMEN🩰😱section, but it hasn’t posted…I’ll repost it tonight, if it hasn’t gone through by then. 😊Hope you have a Marvelous Monday🙌

          127. MommyPino says:

            Haha don’t worry I don’t mind the series installment at all! 😂😜. It actually gives me time to process the story better. Also I am super busy so your toe shoes saga just gives me enough time for a break lol. I love reading your comments as you have a very cute way of telling stories lol.

            I wonder how Emma is doing now. I hope that her situation is getting better since she called you.

            Why did the toe shoes end up in Emma’s game? Was Nancy setting Emma up to be accused of stealing them? Did Nancy’s weird expression come from her dismay that her plan didn’t work and everybody is celebrating instead of being upset at Emma?

          128. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yah~the “Kerplunk” section did go through…I’ll start “Eagle 🦅 Eyes” tonight…but I wanted to get back to you on your post on Charlotte Mason’s philosophy…

            I’ve heard of it, though I don’t know much on it but what I’ve read in a few places, but you explained it very well & I find it really encouraging/meaningful – and wise! That’s so on-point, on not focusing on rote knowledge but digging deeper into the element of how much a person *cares* as they head out on their own personal journey…as for us empaths (and normals, for that matter), that level of care is such a motivating factor to what we do/decisions we make. The whole philosophy seems to speak to a balanced life, of meaning/importance…not necessarily accolades or awards or even recognition at all, but making a real difference — and finding our own true joy & passions. That would strengthen noble traits too. Very inspiring!

            It reminds me some of the Suzuki Method, which I was trained on (musically) since age 5. It’s an internationally known music method/curriculum that stresses playing by ear early, but the overriding philosophy is in being tuned into others (group repertoire/performing as a group) and fostering good moral character, which is done in very fun & ingenious ways. The nun who taught me my first instrument told my parents I would just love Suzuki, and she was so right!🥰 I had to audition to get in (not just play – but have an interview, which was a very gentle conversation), which was a bit scary for a five year old, but I wanted to do it…my time with Suzuki was among the most special times of my life…”enriching” is truly the right word. I made so many special friends as well, and we all cared about each other. It was about doing your very best/excellence too, but only in relation to yourself — non-competitive.

            I have a book on Shinichi Suzuki, and I especially love this quote from him:
            “I want to make good citizens. If a child learns fine music from the day of his birth and learns to play it himself, he develops sensitivity, discipline and endurance. He gets a beautiful heart.”❤

            Keeping with this topic, “Student of the Month” award in kindergarten seems so far in the other direction of the above two philosophies…and like you mentioned, I can see the child being pressured by the *parent’s* ambition/vicarious living. I can see where it would make some parents lose sight & get competitive/jealous-minded of other parent’s kids, if they were predisposed to such things.

            Instead, wouldn’t it be more be beneficial to have Kindergarten “Caught Being Kind” or “Caught Sharing” or even “Caught Cracking Up” mentions?

            It’s so refreshing to see you so aware of what’s important and what is rather ridiculous (at best) or harmful (at worst). You’ll never be on that crazy “keeping up with the Joneses” merry-go-round, and your kiddos will all the better for it.🎠🎠🎠🎠

          129. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is fine, I wholeheartedly agree with you and everything that you said. I have been raised with a polar opposite approach by my narcissist mom and it has caused a lot of unhappiness for me which thankfully I have learned to deal with by education (Bible and other books). The boy’s mom is actually a close friend of mine. She’s actually an empath although a very competitive one and her husband is a much more mellow empath. She’s also an immigrant like me but from another country and I was thinking that her culture is very similar to mine wherein rote learning and earning medals in school is the conventional way to succeed. I don’t think that the boy will be a narcissist because his parents are such good people but both me and my husband agree that the boy has issues right now. He always compares himself to my son whenever we are with him and whenever he doesn’t know something you can see his embarrassment and he gets defensive immediately. It’s too early to tell but I hope that the boy mellows down a bit. A lot of times he the boy says or does things that seem to embarrass both his parents and they both gently correct him, they are well aware of his behavior and I have not seen them condone it. One time we all went to the zoo and he was calling the animals the wrong names and my son tells him in a non boastful way the right names of the animals and he stopped being interested about the animals and started to get bored. Although at that time he could already read and write basic words. I just find it interesting and to be honest I sometimes doubt if I am really on the right path because I myself was used to the narcissistic way of encouragement to succeed but when I see how my son is so excited about tinkering and the things around him and how much he knows about his world I get reassured again.

            I love your description of the Suzuki method. It makes me want to look up if we have something like that close to where we live. I love that you had to audition and the audition was appropriate for your age. I can imagine the boost in the self esteem of young kids after they pass the gentle interview and earned the privilege of being accepted to that music school. I love your ideas of awards, especially the word ‘caught being’ because that’s really how life usually is, sometimes we get caught being kind or doing the right thing and we get noticed but we should still do it even if no one seem to notice or catch us. It doesn’t mean that the ones who didn’t recognize are not as kind as the ones who were ‘caught’. I totally love it! 😊💕

          130. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, MP.😊
            You’re very “heart conscious,” and that’s really THE most important thing in parenting them – you’ll make mistakes, as we all do as human beings, but you have your heart set right❤…so you will continue to gain wisdom to see the big picture, in how to parent them through all the stages. While having a parent with NPD is a huge challenge (to put it mildly), it’s obvious to me that you are a very fine example of “This was done to me, and it wasn’t right — I will not continue that in my own parenting.” It’s a very conscious choice you are making for the good of your kids, and that’s a beautiful thing! 🥰

            Also remember that you do not need to be a perfect parent. There’s really no such thing anyway, and as you know, life is not perfect either — it’s sometimes scary and messy. If your kiddos know you love them unconditionally (and I’m sure they do), you will also be looking at their individual journeys in an unselfish way, and bit by bit, they will grow in their own confidence to face what they encounter later in life (the good & bad) …and parenting is a daily walk, so adjustments are made all along the way, so you don’t need to put pressure on yourself that you’re doing it just right – it really is trial & error, in a lot of ways! But again, if your kids feel loved & that you’re there to help them find their strengths & also help shore up impacting weaknesses, as reasonably as you can…and you are raising them to have self-respect, as well as respect/care for others…that’s really the ticket — you’re a great parent! And if your faith gives you perspective & strength, that’s another area they’ll see as a positive vibe from you too, as well as your own interests/joys. From the outside looking in, it sounds like a very healthy environment, where you are focused on the right things already.

            Oh my gosh~The evening is moving along, and I don’t have the next section of my Omen story done. Stop gabbing & get back to work, Caroline! 🤸‍♀️

          131. MommyPino says:

            Thank you so much Caroline is fine. I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement. I was really scared of screwing up and becoming like my mom when my first was born. I have read The Confident Mom by Joyce Meyer and other parenting books like Brain Rules for Babies and the Whole-Brain Child. I think it has helped me immensely to have peace of mind when I found out here that my mom was indeed not normal, she had NPD and that I do not have NPD which totally erased my fear of being like her to my kids. I am thankful for the categorization of narcissists which allowed me to figure out that she had NPD even though she wasn’t the conventional narcissist. Thank you for being so amazingly kind to me. I hope that God always bless you forever. ❤️❤️❤️

          132. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Awww, thank you sweet MP💖…I’m home sick, but I feel better just knowing that you’re always wishing me well.

          133. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is not feeling well, I hope that you feel better ASAP. Take plenty of rest. Love to you sweet Caroline! 😘💕

          134. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, Angel Mom!😇 I should probably spend some time finishing the ending to the toe shoe story, instead of teasing Lorelei about her very unruly hair (her new witch pic) & rolling my eyes at HG…if I keep it up, I’ll probably just get more & more mischievous until I’m booted right off here!

            Back to my tea & honey…and being a very good girl.🤗

          135. MommyPino says:

            Haha they haven’t kicked me out yet so I think that you’re pretty safe. 😜💕. Lorelei with unruly hair cracked me up. No hurries about the conclusion. I’m pretty busy myself getting ready for a Trunk or Treat this Saturday. We live in a remote and hilly area so we don’t get any trick or treaters so we just decorate our trunks and go to a parking lot with a bunch of other parents from the play group that I used to be a part of.
            Take care Sweet Caroline and hope you feel better soon. Have the most lovely time with your tea & honey. 🍵🍯😘💕

          136. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, MP💖 I’ll get to the conclusion by Sunday, for sure.
            My fever broke, and I’ve been on an antibiotic for over 24 hours now, so I’m feeling a lot better. I may go into work later this afternoon – will have to see.

            I ❤ the “Trunk-or-Treat”~how fun!!🍬🍭

          137. MommyPino says:

            I’m glad that you’re feeling a lot better. I haven’t seen those movies but I looked them up and I think that I will enjoy them. Not something that I can watch with my husband but I will enjoy watching them when I am alone and maybe with a glass of wine and a bowl of popcorn 🍿.

            Thank you Caroline is fine, it is hard to have several narcs in my family. In a way it made me more susceptible to being attracted to narcs and also attracting them but in a weird way I think it also helped my alarm system get louder in that my romantic entanglements never got beyond the seduction because I saw similarities of the dynamics in my family that I hated. So it’s like a double edged sword for me. I have read the article about internal alarm system yesterday I think and it made me think a lot because I feel that one thing I can give credit to myself for is that I do listen to it even when I’m still in the middle of my heavy attraction during seduction. And I think recognizing the similarities of their behaviors with my family members helped me a lot.
            Thank you, I do love the Trunk or Treat as well. I’m glad that they invited me this year even though I left the play group last year. I think that the leader is a narcissist and at that time I was in the phase of avoiding all narcissists. But now I think that it is impossible and all that I really need is to fortify my boundaries so that even when I have to interact with them I can be safe.
            I hope that you have a wonderful day at work and a lovely weekend! 💕

          138. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP~🌼
            I was only at work a few hours…I think I pushed it, as I felt zoney. One more night’s sleep should make a big difference. I *was* supposed to do something special tonight (with a special someone❤)…but that will need to wait. Instead, I’m going to make myself soup (real soup – not in a can🎉) & snuggle into bed to watch the next episode of “Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders: Making the Team.” (I hope nobody’s paying attention to this thread — it’s a given that HG’s already silently mocking me, for the cheerleader show).

            Rah.🤫Rah.🤫 Rah!🤭

            P.S. Re: your narc play group leader…You know, I’m finding there are just a lot more narcs floating around than I had realized, and I’m probably on the conservative side in my estimation…I totally get why you wanted a narc-free zone, for a good, long break. You fully earned that break, darlin’! You’re right though, in that boundaries are the key. We have to live our lives fully, and narcs are going to pop up, from time to time…it’s not like we can whack them all down, like “whack-a-mole.” Like boundaries, one of my biggest changes has been when my gut gives me that BAD feeling…to get myself ready to say a polite but firm “no” right away, to whatever I know I don’t want to get wrapped up in. I used to have this awful habit of trying to soften my “no” — and it would just get me in deeper & deeper. I’m much better at that. It’s more honest of me too. I had to practice saying it though. How goofy is that?? But I find that decent people totally respect a “no, but thanks”…and the ones who don’t, well, maybe they are a tad narcy, hmm?🧐

          139. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I couldn’t attach this to your reply about the movies I recently watched, but I wanted to mention that I have one more that I just finished that I think you’d really like: “Far From the Madding Crowd” (based off the Thomas Hardy novel). I’m finishing up my massive movie marathon & will re-enter the land of the living this afternoon, as I feel so much better.🤸‍♀️

            Happy Weekend🤗

          140. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine! 🌻

            I’m so glad that you are finally fine and not feverish! I wish I could send you a soup but there is this fall soup that my family loves and you can google the recipe really fast. It’s Golden Winter soup by My family loves it and even my narcy stepdaughter’s husband loves it and he said that he hated butternut squash soups but this one he loves.

            The trunk or treat was a success and the kids had so much fun. My favorite trunk was the Willy Wonka one. They used paper plates to make giant candies and pool noodles to make giant lollipops. Their whole family was in costume and their kids were the cutest Oompa Loompas.

            I agree with you on saying no. I had the same problem. But I think it has been much easier for me to say no now. I’m not sure if I have become much jaded or I’m just getting old. I do know that I’m not as innocent as I used to be and I am not as unguarded. I am thankful though that I got to experience that blissful innocence when I was younger. I agree with you. If we imagine ourselves on the receiving end of the ‘no’ and when we remember our reactions when we get that answer, we truly do not take it against the other person. In fact, I would personally appreciate it better if there is honesty and they will tell me ‘no’ if it would really inconvenience them because I would not want to inconvenience my friends or anyone.

            Haha I don’t see anything wrong with watching a cheerleading show. I have seen a show before on how to be an LA Lakers cheerleader and it was educational for me in a way because I had no idea how hard it is to get accepted and how rigorous the audition process is and the pride and prestige associated with being a cheerleader for the Lakers. Whenever I’m not feeling well I want to watch either chick flicks or shows where I don’t have to think. It’s the same when I’m working out. I used to watch Selling Sunset for example when I was working out which is really stupid but I just watch it to look at their clothes and the mansions because my elliptical machine is so noisy anyway so if I don’t hear a lot of the dialogues I wouldn’t miss anything meaningful. 😜

            I will definitely look up all of the four movies. We have Prime and Netflix and Roku so hopefully at least one of them is in those channels. I want to know good movies like that because I usually watch either action movies with my husband and children’s movies with my kids. Sometimes I want a good love story and a tearjerker too! 🥰💕

          141. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, MP🥰…
            I’ll write you back more tonight on your very fun reply, but I finished the story~I now just have to shorten it!😊 Just quickly, what you said at the end — *all* of those movies are on Amazon Prime. I highly suggest “The Madding Crowd”! We can even find that film post of HG’s, and discuss the 3 suitors (narc/normal or empath?), if you are ever up for it. I’d love to know what you think.

            It’s Monday, my fav day 🎉(I know, how strange – but it really is my fav day of the week). Hope you have a Mighty Marvelous Monday. Or at the very least, a Moderately Marvelous Monday.😉
            P.S. Speaking of saying “no,” I’ve got a doozy for you…two of my guy friends asked for a “small favor” from me last evening, which ended in public humiliation. More later on this…but if *that* didn’t up my “NO, BUT THANKS” ratio, nothing will.😳

          142. MommyPino says:

            “ We can even find that film post of HG’s, and discuss the 3 suitors (narc/normal or empath?), if you are ever up for it. I’d love to know what you think.”

            That sounds fun! I would love that!

            I love that Monday is your favorite day and you’re always happy to go to work. It is a blessing to be able to do what you love and get paid for it.

            I would love to hear your story later. Have the most fabulous Monday and work week! 😘💕

          143. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, MP~It was a good day, and the weather is so gorgeous too! 🍁🍂
            In contrast, last eve😑…

            One of my guy friends (Chris) called yesterday, mid-afternoon, to say he & another friend of ours (Jason) wanted to go to this local cowboy-themed restaurant’s “game night” later (like “happy hour,” but with games), so he asked me to go with them. Here’s where I went totally sideways. I said: “Thanks, but I really want to wind down tonight, & I need to clean my kitchen floor…” — he was not deterred (he’s a stubborn “normal”). He promised it’d only be for about an hour, to eat appetizers…so fiiiine…(I called my man❤, to be considerate – made sure he’s comfortable with my going with them✅) And I then happily thought, “Hey – I can wear my cowboy boots!” (Hey – it’s really*not* going to be worth it😑)

            We got there – seated in a booth; I’m sat on the outer end, next to Jason. There were little whiteboards on the table, with black markers, for some of the games – and I learned that if you win a game, you get a restaurant gift card. So I got a glass of wine/an appetizer, and was thinking it was rather nice…until the next game was them playing 70s, 80s & 90s songs for an hour, and it was a lip syncing competition…

            When they started playing the song “Jessie’s Girl,” Chris suddenly sprang up & took the fake microphone (wow, really?)…and before I knew what was happening, he’d become a boy band member – fake singing, dancing & playacting that *I* was Jessie😳 (Seriously??). My mind quickly tried to figure out how to gracefully exit this OMG situation. I don’t know if you’re familiar with “Jessie’s Girl,” and it’s not like I’ve never heard the song before, but I’ve never paid much attention to the lyrics. But trust me when I say that it’s more embarrassing to have that song directed at you (in front of a fairly decent crowd) than I can adequately explain…like, make it stop.😫 I thought about slinking completely underneath the booth, out of sight – but it seemed too dirty down there. It’s probably not a very long song, but I swear that it seemed to go on FOREVER…

            When the lyrics of “I played along with the charade” came up, Chris leaned down and snapped one finger to his side, as he crept up toward me, and it was one of the funniest things I’d ever seen — I literally could not stop laughing – even now, I cannot get that image out of my mind😂 I finally ended up burying my head on Jason’s shoulder, to partially hide (which probably only made him look like “Jessie”).

            I definitely should have stayed home!

            And guess what? Chris ended up winning the blasted gift card. That jerk!😂I’d say that’s positive reinforcement for errant behavior.

            Next time, what will my answer be to Chris? No…hell no!

          144. MommyPino says:

            Haha OMG that was too funny and cute! It sounds like you have great friends. I love that song, it’s right up my alley. Haha are you sure he’s not a Geyser Empath because I have done things like that with my friends lol. My husband always tells me that with all of my sincerest expressions and gestures while singing I could easily be a star if only I had voice that sounds good lol. It sounds like it was a great time although humiliating lol. It was a fun kind of humiliation and I’m sure that everybody there thought that you were all cute although probably wondering if he really has a secret crush on you lol. 😜

          145. Caroline-is-fine says:


            DARLING DONUT!🤗I know, I know…I said I’d stop calling her that – this is the last time, I pinkie swear. She’s absolutely adorable❣ How old is she again? She has such a sweet little face – and those eyes – she looks like she could do no wrong. Who cares if she’s never even house trained? Ok, you *care*…but still, THAT FACE.🤗

            You’re right on, about Chris. I do think he is a Geyser Guy! He’s cute, so funny & also sweet, and he’s a great, loyal friend (you can count on him anytime)…but he likes teasing me a bit too much🤨 (Have I not suffered *enough* with my brothers?) He will sometimes spontaneously break into over-the-top, grand flourish goofy stuff too…about a month ago, a group of us were leaving a coffee shop, and it started raining, & Chris hops down to the end of the steps out, ahead of me — stretches his arms out & proclaims: “I’ll save your precious feet, Caroline!”, like he wanted to scoop me up & carry me through the rain to the car (he must be getting this stuff from movie scenes, lol)…no, you utter nutter!! I ignored & pushed past him — and there were people coming out behind us, listening to this lunatic yelling: “Why are you so mean to me, My Caroline? WHY?” Oh gawd, give it a rest. 😂That’s Chris.

            I should just never be out in public with him. It’s OBVIOUSLY not safe. Lol

            Well, I’m headed to a work function tonight, so I better get ready. Enjoy your too-adorable pup, and thank you for posting the pic!…you’ll have to let me know if she’s keeping you guys up at night.🥱

          146. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I wanted to send you a separate note to say I’m so sorry about your ongoing wildfires…how trying, sad & concerning for your whole state. Hang in there with your power outages.💚🙏 I’m assuming neither one of us are up for that year-long pioneer experience now. (My having a nice collection of Goose Creek jar candles is probably not a good enough reason to commit.😑)

          147. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, It is indeed Marvelous Monday even for my family! We may have found out dog! I already paid the adoption fee but will not meet the dog until later today so hopefully everything goes well. It’s a white cockapoo female pup! I’m so excited! 😊

          148. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oh, MP~she sounds so cute! How exciting!I can’t wait to hear all about her.🤍

            [BTW, I just sent you a post on my embarrassing night, but it’s a little long, so it may be awhile before it goes thru…I think I said that my goofball friend was playacting (to a song) that I was “Jessie”…he was actually playacting I was “Jessie’s Girl.” It was weird enough AS was. I’m overall quite friendly~but a smidgeon very shy, in exactly the way that made me cringe last night. I’ll never go back to that restaurant!]

            Can’t wait to hear your pup news❣

          149. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine. The pup is so precious! She hasn’t barked since we got her and she’s already playing with the kids. We all love her so much already. I will put her picture up as my gravatar. I am excited to read your new posts but it may be tomorrow because we are all getting her situated at her new home. We got back from a two hour drive back home with pee stops for her. It was really just an hour and a half drive away. You were the first person outside of our family that I wanted to let know about her because you’re the one that got me into looking for a family dog from shelters. Thank you for telling me about it! She’s so adorable and I can’t believe that she’s ours. 🥰❤️

          150. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Awww, so great!❤No biggie, on catching up on my posts! You have enough on your plate, with adorable little Snowball🤍…hmmm, or Donut🤍…or Angel🤍! Oh, wait, she’s not my pup — I can’t name her.😂 I do get carried away, when it comes to puppies.

            Seriously, so happy for you all! It sounds like she will be such a nice addition to your family~and it was really sweet of you to tell me about her~I feel honored.❤

            May the pee be contained — and the snuggles be many.🥰

          151. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Caroline is fine! So far the pees and the poops have not all been contained. And I stepped on one this morning and I almost threw up but I was able to stay strong. 💪. I will go to the pet store and get supplies and visit my friend to show her the pup. Have a wonderful day at work! 💕

          152. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I just want to send you a quick message to say thank you for the beautiful message you left on the other thread. I didn’t want to pull you back there so I sent it here. I do feel it’s important for me to speak up even though I will most likely not get any response. But it’s good for my inner peace to air it out. I will catch up on our topics here when I’m done with the other thread. BTW we don’t have power again for three days. But not everybody lost power, just us living on higher elevations. The puppy is so sweet and still hasn’t barked since we took her home. The most that she does is whimper when she’s left in her crate. The potty training is going well and she has improved. I just can’t believe that she doesn’t bark. She’s like a breathing, eating and pooping stuffed toy. She’s just always content and goes along with everything. But she is very needy for company and whimpers when you put her down so you can do chores. Remember when I said the German Shepherds are the Super Empaths of the Saviour Empaths? I think this mix would be one of the Co-Ds.

          153. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You’re so welcome, MP💚 So little pup is possibly a codependent, eh? Well, that’s okay – she’ll never be taken advantage of by a narc. I just noticed my “puppy training tip” never went through (sent a few days ago)…or worse, I posted it to a different thread…oops, how potentially embarrassin’. I need to double-check what thread I’m on from now on!😳

          154. MommyPino says:

            Haha Caroline is fine that would be too funny if all of a sudden people discussing in a thread sees a random puppy training comment!in their discussion lol. She is only about 9 weeks old. Yes, she’s so sweet and goes along with everything and never complains which is similar to what I have read from Chained so I think that she is a Co-D and yes she will never know how it is to be abused. She will only know how to be loved by all of us. Especially our little boy, he carries her everywhere now and in the car she always sits on his lap. On our way home after picking her up she had an accident on his lap and he had a good sense of humor about it and told me, “ Mommy, guess what she did? She pooped and peed on me!” And he said while laughing that she used him as a toilet. I had to stop the car and change his pants. He was grossed out but he was too sweet to the dog that he saw the humor in it.

            We got our power back yesterday afternoon but we will lose it again tomorrow. So I will be recharging everything while we still have power lol. I will go back to the old comments to catch up. 💕

            Hope your Friday is going great!! 🌻

          155. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It was a short work day for me today, so it’s now officially TGIF🎉I’m picking up one of my friend’s kiddos from school for her, in a little bit — but I do plan to post my “Part 3A” (🩰) tonight, so that I don’t lose it (I’m such a natural disaster with my new Tablet). So you *know* what it means when there’s a 3A, right? There’s also gotta be a 3B…I know, I *do* suck! — throw tomatoes at me — I deserve it!🍅🍅🍅 I decided to leave some of the goofball parts in, on the off chance they make you giggle.

            Oh, yeah~it will be pretty “WTH?” weird if that pup training post shows up on another thread…especially since it started out with a reply to you re: you gagging over doggie accidents with my saying: A pup’s gonna DOO what a pup’s gonna DOO…🙈

            Your son is such a sweetheart…it’s clear the pup found herself blessed big with a loving home. She sounds impossibly adorable. Shoot! This makes me want another puppy! Anyway, you’re probably making out just fine with house training, but let me know if you ever want my 3-day training method…which probably won’t be practical, as I took off 3 days of work & largely confined myself to the kitchen, day & night.

            I better go for now~can’t be late for pickup🤸‍♀️

          156. Caroline-is-fine says:

            MP~Part 3A😉

            The Empath’s Gaze

            My well-worn toe shoes back on my abnormally narrow feet, I was dancing painlessly once again. I, Caroline “Eagle Eyes” Drew, had cracked “The Case of the Disappearing Toe Shoes.”🩰 Yes, the overwhelming evidence was in and most revealing…

            Nancy: GUILTY! ❌
            Crimes committed: Breaking & Entering/toe shoe theft/conspiring to frame/facilitating emotional duress on multiple parties, in the commission of a crime & cover-up.

            Throw the book at her, Perry Mason!!! Or that other guy – the bald detective, with a penchant for lollipops…or the short, bushy one – forever lingering, scratching his chin while saying: “There’s just one more question I have, madam…”

            But alas, “The Case of the Disappearing Toe Shoes” would never be investigated nor prosecuted.

            In fact, nobody would ever know anything about it at all. “Eagle Eyes” would keep her beak shut, with a strong belief it was for the greater good.

            Unless and until I could see why & how revealing Nancy’s malicious behavior would be believed in entirety and a positive change-maker, it was “mums the word.” 🤐 I had made that decision somewhere between being perched on my brother’s broad shoulders and on the lengthy car ride home. I pondered the ramifications of involving others, based on what I knew about the individuals and history of dynamics I’d previously seen play out. I did *consider* tattling, for a bit. Should I tell Joy? My Dad? My oldest brother? No, I would not.

            I didn’t see a clear path to making a positive difference – and I saw too many pitfalls toward collateral damage. Of course, my 9-year-old mind wasn’t actually thinking the term “collateral damage,” but I did think: “It won’t help, and it could make a lot of things worse.”

            So – would I confront Nancy myself?


            I knew that wouldn’t help either. She lied a lot, which Emma pointed out repeatedly; but it was much more than her continual lying. I had always had a bad feeling about her, no matter how nice she appeared to be. It was a strong, unnerved feeling: she rang resoundingly hollow to me.

            Instead of taking action, I would keep everything in the back of my mind. I would be more aware. I would let it go, but I would not forget. If I ever was supposed to do something, I would know what that was – and when. I was sure about that.

            As it turned out, that didn’t take nearly as long as I thought it would.

            [Part 3B, “Empath’s Gaze” conclusion, coming soon]

          157. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine 🌻
            I love the way you tell stories. It almost feels like there’s a bonfire between us and I’m watching the scene of the crime through the bonfire🔥.

            Thank you for your other message about the blackouts. We are getting better at dealing with it. We might have to get a generator. At least I was able to do all of the laundry, vacuum the floors and do the dishes and made some meals we don’t have to heat up before we lost power. I was also able to print out and laminate new teaching materials. I don’t know if we will get the power back tomorrow or on Monday. But we might lose power again on Tuesday. I’m also glad that I have a lot of dry shampoo. I get them from my subscription boxes and I never use them so they just accumulated. Now with the days that we don’t have water I can finally try them all and find out which ones are good. ☺️

          158. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP🌼
            I’m so glad to hear you’re okay~I saw the news about more evacuations because of the winds. Poor California!😥

            I’ve never tried a dry shampoo, and I’ve always been curious how well they work. Look at you, being all resourceful! 😊You would have made a mighty fine pioneer woman – much better than me. Speaking of which, I have electricity but no hot water (which will be remedied today, or I may be trying my first dry shampoo too!)…

            My hot water heater broke late Friday night.😕 What a mess…but I don’t want to complain much about it, with what you’re all going through. Guys were here yesterday working on clean-up/dry out & will be back again today. Then there will be linoleum replacement this week, in my laundry room [Good thing I gots me a man, lol, or this would not have not been caught nearly as soon as it was…I would have just kept wiping up the puddle of water I saw on the laundry room floor, thinking my doggie was dropping ice cubes there…seriously, that’s what I thought🙄]

            P.S. Thanks so much, for the kind compliment about my storytelling. It’s fun for me, so thanks for sitting around the campfire. 💛Ironically, a “werewolf” will figure prominently in the conclusion.😱 It’s too funny that the ending will be near Halloween – so very weird!😂

          159. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks so much for the recipe link – “Golden Winter Soup” sounds so enchantingly Empath-like.😉 I love new recipes, and I will absolutely check it out!

            The Willy Wonka trunk theme sounded adorable (Did they hand out Willy Wonka candy bars?😊)…I tried to enlarge your new pic, which looks so festive, but I can’t. Is that your family’s trunk? What theme did you guys do?😁

            You most assuredly are *not* “getting old,” nor “jaded.” You’re cautious…and really, I’d say that’s likely you listening carefully to your gut, which can amount to pure wisdom. Unfortunately, the world is not all nicely-nice, so a protective spirt toward your loved ones/yourself can be completely warranted, whether that be narcs or other harmful people. I understand though – it’s hard/disappointing to have your eyes widely opened (not like when we were complete innocents, as kids…my first big blow, in that way, was when a childhood friend was murdered).

            It’s tough, to find the right balance. But your loving output & generous spirit is guaranteed that you 100% do not have a heart that is jaded. No way!✨

          160. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, Our theme for the Trunk or Treat was Oz. My daughter was Dorothy and my son was the Cowardly Lion. We had the same theme last year. My son was wearing the same costume from last year and I got my daughter’s costume when it was on sale last year. Two years ago we did a Charlotte’s Web theme and I made two red barn doors on the sides of our car. My daughter who was just a baby at that time was the spider and she was sitting in the trunk while my son was Wilbur. Next year we will do Frozen and my daughter is so excited to be Queen Elsa but I couldn’t convince my son to be Olaf. He said that he wants to be a superhero and he will rescue Queen Elsa. My daughter was sad and she kept telling her brother that she wants warm hugs. He said that he doesn’t care. The Willy Wonka trunk just handed out regular candies but their whole family were in complete costumes and make up. They also decorated the trees by their trunk with giant candies and lollipops made of colored paper plates and foam pool noodles. By the way, the trunk or treat was scheduled on the day of the playgroup leader’s birthday (whom I suspect is a narc because of several red flags) and we all sang happy birthday to her before it all started and she blew a cake. Some of her friends’ trunks were decorated with a happy birthday theme as well. I’m wondering if it was scheduled on her birthday for fuel. But regardless, it was a great event and I’m thankful that she invited me.

            I’m so sorry that you had that tragic experience of having your childhood friend get murdered. Our childhood friends are very special in so many ways, especially since they will forever remind us of our innocence and when our lives were so simple. Every time I find out on FB that I have an old classmate from grade school or high school who already passed away, I remember how they were when we were kids. It is so hard to think that their lives were cut short, even if they were not my close friends in school. I can’t imagine how much more harder to have a friend’s life cut short through violence. I am so sorry. That would be very hard indeed.

          161. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I have such a fondness for the Oz theme…every time a little Dorothy comes to the door trick-or-treating, I feel heart warmed.💛 It’s a precious costume. Your Charlotte’s Web theme (another fav of mine) was so ingenious, with the barn doors! Maybe your son will change his mind on Frozen by next year, but if not (to borrow from HG…), you could always split the trunk, like “When Cartoons Collide” — and play into his idea of rescuing Elsa, as a cohesive, funny theme…then again, maybe that’s way too complicated.😏

            Thanks for your sweetness, about my friend…every anniversary of her death, I light a candle all night, in her honor. But I try more to remember our happy times together, and I think about her vibrancy & what I can do to live my moments, because she cannot. Life is fragile…like the sad, unexpected losses, as you described. Maybe because I feel that life is fragile, I do try harder to live it fully. In a way, whether it’s part of my innate personality or not (and I think it is), I hold onto the child in me. I think it has helped me, at times, to see what’s most important. Because my friend died a child, she’ll always be a child to me. Maybe that helps guide my heart. Maybe I’m being way too deep for a Monday morning.🤸‍♀️

            Your playgroup leader does sound rather narc-suspicious🧐 Paying attention to how people react to birthdays (their own or others) can be quite revealing. Until HG’s site, I was unaware of that element, but it now makes so much sense. Speaking of narc-suspicious…I’m in a book club where I am so distracted by two women in the group (with so many narcy qualities) that I feel like I’m watching a novel play out within the reading of a novel.😂

            Well, onto work for me today – but home early, to let the guys in to do more work resolving the water heater-related issues. But hooray, hot water again.🎉 Thinking of your fire-related challenges there/California in general too.🙏

          162. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m so sorry for you guys…I feel just awful, seeing the news there. May they get this under control soon.🙏 I hope you & your family are okay❤

          163. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, thank you for thinking of us. We are ok. Our power was back this afternoon. My kids and I were able to have a shower at my stepson’s house who lives downtown and got his power restored yesterday. I’m in a catching up game today and school will be back in session tomorrow. Anyway, I got to try two dry shampoos that I have and the other one (Love Beauty and Planet) didn’t work out for me. I threw it away. It smelled good but I hated the texture of my hair after using it. I ended up looking like a greasy hobo. It felt so good to have a shower yesterday. Nothing beats a real shampoo with hot water running on your hair. My hair was back to being soft and silky to touch. This morning I tried Oribe Dry Texturizing Spray and I liked it way better. At first the scent seemed a little overwhelming but it dissipated right away and it smelled good. My hair was still smooth and silky but still not as good as having a shower. I would use it again if I can’t shower.

            Caroline is fine, I am actually in my last days here at Narcsite. I am just waiting to finish the story about Nancy and I will move on to the next chapter of my life: the narc free life. I am grateful to HG and the wonderful people here and I am very grateful to your kindness to me. I am blessed to have no narcissists in my life right now and I just want to enjoy it and maybe not think about NPD and just enjoy my life as it is and cherish the people in my real life. When I showed my puppy to my friend she commented about how we live in the same town but when haven’t spent time together anymore. After discovering Narcsite, it was like I went to a rabbit hole that took me to a new world where I saw the people who were part of my real life in a different perspective. Just like in Alice and Wonderland where they have become caricatures and their traits became more prominent in my eyes. I think I am ready to go back to the real world and focus on many other things in my life and work on enriching my real life and relationships in my life with the people that have been there for me always. I will await the rest of your story and will respond with my thoughts. But I just want you to know that I’m grateful and that I ask God to always be with you and always keep you safe and happy. And thank you for the times that you have been an angel to me. Those were inconsequential to you but to me they mean a lot.

          164. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m so glad you’re all doing okay…although I am sad to hear your news, it’s only because you are a bright light & will be very missed. 💛I love chatting with you! But I want whatever is best for you, and I do understand what you are saying. Know you can always find me on this thread & ping me if you ever want to, or if you ever watch any of those movies & feel like a gabbing on one.😉 There’s no need to thank me for anything…it’s a joy to talk to you, and you’re so easy to relate to~thank YOU for sharing yourself with me!💕

            I will finish the Nancy story & send it soon, & that’s so sweet of you, if you want to comment on it (but you don’t have to) – it’s done, in part, but I want to shorten it a bit AND add a few things that I had forgotten (so I’m still going forward AND backward on it). I hope you always have an abundance of God’s blessings & feel very secure & loved. You so deserve it, hon.💞

          165. Caroline-is-fine says:

            P.S. MP,
            Okay, I’m gonna have to tell you this now…I have been stalling, stalling, stalling on the ending to the story. I keep not linking all the elements up, like I had this really sad feeling about finishing it, like something just wasn’t right. I do believe I sensed something😥…so hey – if I never, ever finish the story, you’ll never leave. Let’s do that! That’ll be my game plan! Yes?…

            No, I’ll finish it…dragging my feet all the way, because I’m now super conclusion-conflicted.😭 I hope this doesn’t look like me guilting you, as it is not meant to be that. I just thought you’d want to know that you make a difference.🤗 Keep Shining🌟

          166. MommyPino says:

            Aww Caroline is fine, you’re so sweet. You’re revelation got me laughing and tearing up at the same time lol. You’re so adorable and kind. No wonder the cashiers at the store told you how they really like you. You make a positive difference just by being yourself.

            No need to worry about me. I have a husband and kids who are totally not narcissists and loves me. I am so proud of the way my kids are turning out each day and that is enough for me to know that I am indeed making a difference. Two Sundays ago I talked at the church about how having an eternal perspective help me survive any trials in life and after talking my husband squeezed my hand and told me that that’s why he married me, because I’m a good person. I saw HG confirm that Prince William and Princess Kate are Normals that’s why they don’t get embroiled with the narc-empath thing. And that is what my husband is. He is a Normal with healthy narcissistic traits (and some annoying once) but there’s a cap that limits the extent of them because he has empathy albeit not like empaths and he has a conscience and strong principles and strong integrity. And he loves me just as much as when we we started our relationship (no high golden period). And he wants me to thrive and has supported my GOSO with his daughters even though it made it harder for him to spend time with them and they have punished him for supporting me with silent treatments and triangulation. I have two close friends who are totally not narcissists and never judges me or questions if I’m a good person or a narcissist or whatever and they have empathy when my mom passed away and when I told them stories about my stepdaughters through the years. I never feel like I have to prove to them anything about myself unlike all of the narcissists in my life who tried to put me on trial and convince me that I am a terrible person. And I think that all of them (my family and two friends) are more than enough to make me feel happy and loved. And now we have the sweetest puppy who immediately turns around to run to me whenever I whistle lol no matter what she’s doing. So don’t worry, I have all that I need and so much more. And I will forever take with me what I have learned from here as well about narcissists and take care of myself by applying GOSO and NC. And also the example that you have set on kindness. It’s time for me to move on and graduate. 👩‍🎓. I will read the end of the story about Nancy and also my other unfinished business is to go to Walmart to put money on my PayPal to donate to AA fund to pay forward Sweetest Perfection’s gift to me. I will get it done today and then I will have no unfinished businesses left. Love to you always. ❤️☺️

          167. Caroline-is-fine says:

            There was never any doubt in my mind that you have all you need internally, and I love seeing you detail all your many blessings, which are heartwarming.💛💜💙💚❤🤍 I never had any doubt the difference you make in the lives of those around you daily, as you made a difference for me, in the exchanges I had with you…so I just thank you❣

          168. Caroline-is-fine says:


            It took me awhile to figure out the right thing to do, but now I know. I’m not going to go into detail with the end to my childhood story, for two heartfelt reasons. There are certain ways that take a lot for me to open up about, because they’re very close to my heart. Although fun, the personal details about me & my cousins is one of those heart issues…in other words, it’s very personal. It says a lot about you that I even went in this direction, because I felt safe doing so. When I thought you were staying on the site, I knew telling this story would be good for me, as it would be healthy to stretch myself in this way. It *was* good for me, but I looked at it as a way to comfortably chat (over time) about aspects of it. I can’t just plop it down now…it’s just not my way. It wouldn’t feel good, inside. The second reason, equally important, is that it would also be holding you back from moving off the site, and it sounds like you want a clear break. I truly want you to go where you feel led. So it’s just bad timing is all!

            Instead, I will summarize what happened more broadly: I was granted the blessing of knowing something that made a difference, because Nancy treated Emma so much better after that…not because she felt bad & it was the right thing to do. I never got that sense. I think it was because someone really *saw* Nancy, and that was a first for her. It held her back, from her harsher treatment of others. I would just look into her eyes (normally) after that — but I found that my eyes reminded her of what I knew, so it kept her more contained…I considered that a big blessing, for Emma.

            Today, Emma is doing better with boundaries, and from empaths like you on here, I’ve learned that sometimes it’s very important you say your piece. She wanted to say all she felt to her Mom, about her sister…the way *I* think is more like: “Just let who you are speak – others will see what they need to – and the rest matters not.” But I now know that’s not best for everyone/how they deal with things, so I gave Emma some of me — and some of what I better understand now, on how other Empaths are…

            When Emma directly asked me how *I* would handle things, with her Mom…

            I said, “Well, maybe I would plant a seed for her to water on her own, if she chooses to…instead of thinking about it like you’re growing the whole garden for her…maybe I’d let her know you want your relationship with her to stay strong…to know your sister will not bring disharmony to it, as being close to your Mom is a priority for you. And that’s it — if it were me, I’d say no more.”

            Her reply was: “I like that…so when can I plant the next seed?”😂

            She got what I was saying though…and she has since told me that in not bad-mouthing her sister but also being able to express herself as needed once in awhile, she felt much more peace about it — AND her Mom stopped defending her sister, because there was no need.

            So seeing things from another empath’s view on here helped me integrate something in RL, so I thank you❣ (& HG helped me too).

            So now I need to gracefully let you graduate…so much love always goes with you on your path, from Caroline-is-fine🤸‍♀️🤍

            I leave you with two last things:
            1) With my story ending, there was music. I know, when I go overboard, it’s a whole thing! So I have to link the music I wove into the ending of the story, to make you laugh:
            2) Never, ever forget that you have everything you need inside🙏🙌

          169. MommyPino says:

            Dear Caroline is fine. Thank you so much for your last message. I really appreciate that you told me what happened and I totally respect that you don’t want to go into detail. I feel honored that you shared something very precious to you to me. I am glad that you helped make Emma’s life better by standing up against what you saw was wrong. The look that you gave Nancy is a way of speaking up for the truth. You didn’t turn a blind eye. That speaks a lot about your high integrity even from a very young age. And Emma is so blessed to have you in her life. And you are so blessed to have her too as she seems to be a very sweet person. I love her question about when can she plant the next seed lol. I think that you gave her a very wise advice and your analogy about planting a seed and letting her mom water it instead of trying to grow a garden for her was very apt.

            Since you shared something very personal to you I want to share something very personal for me too. I’m sharing this to you because you are a Christian as well. My dad shared this poem to me when I wrote him a heartfelt letter about the 9-11 attack. He was very touched by my letter and he shared this poem to me because the attack was partly inspired by zealous beliefs. My dad said that this poem was passed on from my great grandma to my grandma to him and now to me. We haven’t met yet at this time and have only communicated through letters since my childhood. I will share this to my kids when the right moment comes. It’s a really simple poem but the beauty is in its simplicity I think. I’m also sharing this to you because I believe that you are part of his tribe. ❤️

            Abou Ben Adhem
            BY LEIGH HUNT

            Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
            Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
            And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
            Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
            An angel writing in a book of gold:—
            Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
            And to the presence in the room he said,
            “What writest thou?”—The vision raised its head,
            And with a look made of all sweet accord,
            Answered, “The names of those who love the Lord.”
            “And is mine one?” said Abou. “Nay, not so,”
            Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
            But cheerly still; and said, “I pray thee, then,
            Write me as one that loves his fellow men.”

            The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
            It came again with a great wakening light,
            And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
            And lo! Ben Adhem’s name led all the rest.

            I also want to leave a music. This is one of my favorite songs of all time. Your toe shoes story remind me of this song which always make me think of sweet and innocent little girls wearing tutus and toe shoes and blissfully dancing for the pure enjoyment of it. Although this song was really about the songwriter’s ex wife and an amalgamation of the women and his impression of California when they visited here. So from California with lots of love to you…❤️😘


          170. WiserNow says:


            I have just seen your comments about ‘graduating’ from narcsite. It is sad to see you leave, although while I’m sorry to see you go, I am also happy for you if you feel fully able to be empowered and immune in ‘real’ life.

            It has been a pleasure to read your comments, to learn from your experiences and insights, and to communicate with you MommyPino. You have been a lovely presence here and you will be missed. I hope you feel you can always come back and comment again.

            All the best to you and best wishes x 😊

          171. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WiserNow. I will miss reading your posts. I have learned a lot from your insights as well. Thank you for our discussions which I have always enjoyed. I wish you all the best and take care. ❤️

          172. WiserNow says:

            Thank you MommyPino, and you’re welcome ❤
            All the best to you too x

          173. Caroline-is-fine says:

            That poem is beautiful~I love it~it gave me chills. Thank you for that precious gift, hon. It means a lot to me. #TribeTriumph🥰 I’m going to write it down & put it someplace very special💞 Is the music link on another post? I really want to hear it!

          174. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, sorry that the link didn’t work for you. The song is Tiny Dancer by Elton John. Here are two links below. Hopefully one of them works. 🤞. Love you and God bless you always! ❤️

            Elton John – Tiny Dancer (Official Music Video)


          175. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, MP~I love you too. 💕A song to keep tucked in your heart, for your continued journey:
            “I Hope You Dance”
            Lee Ann Womack

          176. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, just want to greet you a Happy Thanksgiving!🦃. I will message you again next week for our film study. 😊

          177. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, sweet MP❤
            We had a most wonderful Thanksgiving~there was turkey, stuffing, green beans, mashed potatoes & gravy~ + chiffon pumpkin pie~there was love & laughter & great conversation & beautiful nature & games & lots of gratitude.❤ I’ll be back on the site later this week…it’ll be fun to analyze the 3 suitors (and main character) in that movie with you. Thanks so much for doing this…and again, take your time watching the movie🤍 I hope you & your family are feeling very blessed, which I’m sure you are.🤗

          178. MommyPino says:

            Thank you sweet Caroline!! It sounds like you really had a wonderful time with your family on Thanksgiving. For us, we didn’t have the turkey dinner until yesterday because my husband was not feeling well. Although he was ok enough to watch Frozen 2 with us. We were planning to watch the Mr. Rogers movie but my kids had a last minute change of mind. We will watch Mr. Rogers next week.

            Yesterday we had our Thanksgiving dinner with my stepson. He used to live with us but he is now living on his own with our help and guidance and he also gets help from an organization financed by the government to help people with special needs. His Thanksgiving had some drama because he refused to go to his sister’s house for Thanksgiving so his mom got mad at him. I think that his mom is a victim lower MR narcissist and his sister hosting the dinner is probably in the middle of Middle MR to Upper MR. I think that she is a victim Narc too. My stepson has been avoiding his sister and he insisted to spend Thanksgiving with his best friend who is also special needs and the guy from the organization who helps them. His mom also got mad that he went to our house yesterday for the dinner which she seemed to take as him choosing us over them.

            I wasn’t able to watch it this week but next week for sure I will. I saw the new thread on the narcissist and film so it will be easier for me to find it. I will let you know when I have already posted there. By the way, I have watched all of the Star Wars movies recently and I am thinking that a Jedi going to the dark side is like when a person becomes a narcissist. Although it’s not a perfect comparison especially since narcissism starts in childhood. But there just seems to have a symbolic similarity. Also fear is what makes them go to the dark side and this fear usually comes from their traumatic life experience which the dark side of the force uses to lure them in. Anyway, I can’t wait for the last Star Wars movie this December. I made sure that I watched all of them so I’m totally ready for the last one that’s coming. 🤓

          179. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I can’t wait to reply on your entire comment, but on this very fine Sunday, I wanted to let you know how you are being used (in a good, not bad way❣). I share different things on this site, with different Empaths, as I feel led…and there was something I specifically felt led to talk to only you about (of course, I totally get anyone can read it, no problem). Well, you just brought up EXACTLY what it was I have wanted to talk to you about, with the exact wording!!😮🤗…not a coincidence.

            My nex showed up at my house about 3 weeks back, but he didn’t speak to me. I was in my yard. He just stood quietly & looked at me (I know, odd/it was a soft look though). About a week after that, he emailed me that he knows he has a “dark side,” and he has been thinking a lot when he’s out in nature, to make sense of how he has these patterns of behavior, but he doesn’t really know if he can ever change, after all these years…he also said he always feels “lighter,” just looking at me, or being around me…he said he feels my inner light, which is different than with anyone else, which is why he feels he was always a “better man” when he was with me (to be fair, a case could be made that he was, in the ways that he chose)…he knows he has inner demons (<that's my phrase, not his), and he knows this has something to do with his childhood, though he has always told me his parents are/were both "good people who didn't always know the best way to handle me as a kid." Anyway, this is the general topic I'd like to talk to you about/get your insights, a bit down the road, if it's okay. It's important to me. This is nothing about me taking him back as a partner, for any Empaths reading this & being concerned/getting the wrong idea.

            It's such confirmation today that I'm meant to you about this, and I know you'll understand my deeper thoughts & ponderings on it, since you can relate to me in that realm. See? See what a blessing you are to me?❤

            I'll comment back to you tomorrow (or Tuesday, at the latest/company is here), on your whole message❣

          180. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, you can talk to me about anything that you want. Especially the ones that are important to you. Thank you for your trust. I would have to admit though that I am a little insecure about how helpful I can be because I have never really been in a romantic relationship with a narcissist. But I will do my best and I will try to think it through before I reply. I also know that HG will correct or clarify if I say something misleading or gave you a counterproductive advice.
            I have received your other response too from the other thread. I’m so happy that what I said resonated with you and I mean every word of it. 💛

          181. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’ll be back on tomorrow, but no worries — I’m not asking for any advice. It’s about faith, and it’s deep, philosophical questions about that, as relates to narcissists . It’s very narrow.🙂 I want to talk to someone who believes in God.

          182. MommyPino says:

            I would love to talk with you about that Caroline is fine. It sounds very interesting.

          183. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Sounds good! We’ll keep it lighter for December though…fun stuff to chat about, and a film to “narc-narc” (and empath) analyze…I’ll be back later tonight🤸‍♀️ Have a Terrific Tuesday🤗

          184. MommyPino says:

            Have a great Tuesday too Caroline!! I have already started to watch Far from the Madding Crowd yesterday. I will finish it today. 😊💕

          185. Caroline-is-fine says:

            (HG: I took out a portion of the song out & am resending it through, just in case that’s why it was held up, or didn’t go through the first time🙂)…

            I can’t wait to see “Frozen 2″☃! I’m sorry your husband was sick on Thanksgiving☹~’tis the season for lots of little bugs.😑 I’m glad you did get your turkey dinner!

            I was touched by what you said about your stepson…it’s so wonderful that he has your family & unconditional love & support…with special needs, it has to be even more taxing for him to deal with the manipulations of narcissists, but I smiled so big at his knowing his own mind & choosing what he feels most comfortable with, as in time with your family & his best friend. ❤In fact, perhaps his challenges would make him more apt to be straightforward with what he wants, which is a good lesson for everyone. Good for him! You know, lately I’ve been looking around in facets of my life & realizing that some people are suspiciously narc-like who I never perceived as such, but it’s hard to overlook some obvious, continual patterns…for me, I guess it doesn’t really matter if they are narcs or highly narcissistic; I behave pretty much the same — just more and firmer boundaries. Anyway, a tune about narcs abounding everywhere just popped into my head…I’m sure you’ll recognize it:

            🎵”With a narc-narc here – and a narc-narc there…here a narc — there a narc — everywhere a narc-narc…HG (Sir Tudor) had site — narcy, narcy narc.”🎵 (I’m stuck in silly song lately).

            I haven’t seen the last 2 Star Wars movies, so I need to catch up, but I do enjoy them. I’m really looking forward to knowing what you think of the characters from the Madding movie. I wish Amazon allowed me to view it again, but I only rented it, so it’s not in my history. I should have taken notes…actually, I think I still will, as there were scenes I wanted to chat on — I better write them down before I forget.🤸‍♀‍

            Hope you have a Wonderful Wednesday.✨

          186. HG Tudor says:

            It remained in moderation for the reasons set out in Rule 13, CIF.

          187. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ok, thanks, HG.

          188. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine,

            We didn’t get back home until 1:30am this morning. Our flight was canceled because the pilot didn’t have enough rest and the only flight that we could get was a very late one with a connecting flight. It was especially harder because our son had a terrible fever and cough. And now both of our kids have a fever but I think that our son is starting to get better and our daughter will be able to fight off the bug.

            But I just want to share something exciting to you that happened on the flight home. My husband and I were separated on the flight and I had our son and our daughter sat by him. A beautiful lady with a very urban style was sitting on the third seat and she was very busy talking on the phone. She almost look like the model in HG’s article Who’s Your Daddy (nose ring and a very short bob haircut) except that she’s Asian. She noticed us and politely gave way for us to be seated. She was very very sweet. Anyway we started chatting and she told me about this weird experience she had in Portland about a guy who has led her on only for him to say to their mutual friend who asked him that he only thinks of her as his sister. She was really hurt because all of his actions (love bombing) made her feel that there was something there. She spent most of her time in Portland with him. Caroline is fine, the red flags on this guy were everywhere. Before she was about to leave he gave her a really special gift, something rare that she collects. This made her even more confused. That’s why she was on the phone with her mom because she was so baffled by this guy. So I talked to her about narcissism and of course HG Tudor (she wrote his name down) and she was so thankful and she said that in an hour I she has learned so much and has gotten so much answer. She was married to a narcissist whom she helped pay for his medical school. They dated for three years and were married for two years before she filed for divorce. He was in the middle of his residency when she left him. He was a sex addict and spent so much money on prostitutes aside from affairs. He was physically violent with her and she was suicidal by the time she left him. She is such a good person and has traveled to and lived in different countries (India, Philippines and China) through her church to help people. It’s so sad that she has been abused but she said that she has been single for four years and has had the best time of her life being single. She said that she had a counselor help her through overcoming codependency and she didn’t think that she could ever live without her ex husband but now she is just having the best time of her life being very independent. She was so thankful that she got to talk to me and she emailed me this morning saying that she has watched so many videos and read so many articles ever since we talked. So I’m just so happy that I was able to help one beautiful person through everything that I have learned here. We both believe that it was meant to be. A lot of people on the plane also seemed to be eavesdropping on our conversation so I think I was able to help spread the word about narcissism lol.

            Caroline is fine, you are so right about my stepson. He is definitely more direct although just like us he also can get blindsided. I have watched his older sister pick on him and he used to worship him. His room used to be full of her framed modeling pictures that she gave to him as gifts. And when she picked on him, it bothered him for months. I am glad that his new independence enabled him to follow what he really wants.

            I agree with narcs being everywhere. I think I have read a commenter here say that HG said narcissism is in a spectrum and I think that is very true. It’s hard to tell sometimes if someone is just highly narcissistic or a full blown NPD. But I agree that the best way to protect ourselves is to fortify our boundaries regardless of whether we are interacting with an NPD individual or just a highly narcissistic person.

            I have a lot of thoughts about the movie and your comments and I will comment on them as soon as I can. But right not I’m focusing on the kids feeling better. Lots of love to you and I hope that your week will be wonderful! ❤️💕

          189. MommyPino says:

            Also Caroline if there’s anything that you want to talk to me about here don’t hesitate. I do care and I would love to be of support to you if I can.

          190. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, MP❤ I know you are always here for me❣

          191. MommyPino says:

            Hello sweet Caroline, I just finished Far From the Madding Crowd. I was bawling towards the end of the movie. I really liked it and I always like happy endings. I will write what I think at the Film thread as soon as I can. I hope that your day is going wonderful! ❤️

          192. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I cried too! 😭The whole movie, I was like: “Get it together, people!”😊 Or her, I should say.😉

          193. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine!! I just posted my answer about the movie at the most recent Narcissist and Film thread. Do we have the same answers? 😊

          194. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I can’t wait to find the thread and look it up❣ I’ll be back on later tonight~thanks so much!🤗

          195. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I would love to read your thoughts. I am currently packing for a trip and will probably not be able to post that much. I am not sure on the sergeant’s school. And I am not sure if William Boldwood is a narcissist. All that I know is that there is something wrong with his obsession but the only disorder that I’m really familiar with is narcissism lol. It could be something else. He seemed such a really nice guy but he couldn’t handle that she said no to him and that started his obsession with her. Was it because he lost control? I think it could be. But I don’t know if there are other disorders that fit him better than narcissism.

          196. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I posted about the soldier (will wait on the other) on the film thread~please only read it at your leisure, and we’ll gab on more whenever is good for you❣🤸‍♀️ There’s never any rush. I hope you’re heading out for a fun trip. ❤I’ll be on (hopefully) one last work-related trip for December (kind of traveled out), pretty soon as well. I hope for less travel in 2020. Stay warm & well…and if you’re not on commenting again until after the holidays, Merry Christmas & a VERY Blessed New Year🥰🙏❣🤗

          197. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I decided to post my thoughts on Boldwood here, since I don’t have a reply button to your comment on the other thread…

            I agree with your thoughts on Boldwood. I ended up thinking he was a “normal,” but I really can see it possible to make a case for UMR…I feel like maybe he’s a normal with a case of OCD thrown in…he seemed decent, almost awkward (lacking some self-awareness, but I didn’t see any NPD flags)…maybe even a normal on the autistic spectrum. Anyway, maybe Gabriel’s view of him unduly influenced me, because Gabriel seemed protective of him, and respectful in a way like he felt Boldwood was sincerely a good man — he didn’t want him to get hurt. In a way, he watched over him.

            I hated the way Boldwood tried to convince her it was perfectly fine if she didn’t love him — like it would just be a good partnership. So that is where I think maybe he was narcissistic…I really don’t know!

          198. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I can’t wait to see “Frozen 2″☃! I’m sorry your husband was sick on Thanksgiving, no fun☹~’tis the season for lots of little bugs.😑 I’m glad you did all get your turkey dinner!

            I was touched by what you said about your stepson…it’s so wonderful that he has your family & unconditional love & support…with special needs, it has to be even more taxing for him to deal with the manipulations of narcissists, but I smiled so big at his knowing his own mind & choosing what he feels most comfortable with, as in time with your family & his best friend. ❤In fact, perhaps his challenges would make him more apt to be straightforward with what he wants, which is a good lesson for everyone. Good for him! You know, lately I’ve been looking around in facets of my life & realizing that some people are suspiciously narc-like who I never perceived as such, but it’s hard to overlook some obvious, continual patterns…for me, I guess it doesn’t really matter if they are narcs or highly narcissistic; I behave pretty much the same — just more and firmer boundaries. Anyway, a tune about narcs abounding everywhere just popped into my head…I’m sure you’ll recognize it:

            🎵”With a narc-narc here – and a narc-narc there…here a narc — there a narc — everywhere a narc-narc…Old Sir Tudor had site — narcy, narcy narc.”🎵 (I’m just bound & determined to get tossed out of here.😳 It must be seasonal stress – songs keep popping into my head).

            I haven’t seen the last 2 Star Wars movies, so I need to catch up, but I do enjoy them. I’m really looking forward to knowing what you think of the characters from the Madding movie. I wish Amazon allowed me to view it again, but I only rented it, so it’s not in my history. I should have taken notes…actually, I think I still will, as there were scenes I wanted to chat on — I better write them down before I forget.🤸‍♀️

            I’m signing off for Terrific Tuesday~have a Wonderful Wednesday.✨

          199. NarcAngel says:


            Wishing you and your family (including puppy) safe navigation through the current environmental issues there and through life in general. Take care.

          200. MommyPino says:

            Thank you NarcAngel! Take care as well. ☺️

          201. Caroline-is-fine says:


            Eagle Eyes🦅

            From atop my brother’s shoulders, looking down at the little group gathered, I, little “Eagle Eyes” Caroline, had the perfect perch to observe.

            As nice as it was to see everyone’s happiness that I had found my well-worn, cherished toe shoes… um, joyful people down there…am I the only one thinking this is a wee bit strange?🤔

            Relieved to have my toe shoes back, my 9-year-old mind was still stuck on a simple thought:

            *How* exactly did my toe shoes end up in a game in Emma’s closet, high up on a shelf? Nobody curious? Nobody?…Really – no one?

            My brother, I understood; he wasn’t focused on Emma’s details – he was watching his pretty cheerleader girlfriend doing a sideline cheer for the occasion. 😏 As for Joy, she had already good-naturedly summed it up as: “Oh those girls – so silly!”

            But I, Caroline (Eagle Eyes) Drew, knew the cold, hard facts of “The Case of the Disappearing Toe Shoes”:

            Fact # 1: Emma & I had not played Kerplunk; we didn’t take it down from the top shelf at all; we hadn’t played Kerplunk in a pretty long time.
            Fact # 2: Even if Emma weirdly, accidentally, (delusionally?) put my toe shoes into that game box, she was never in her room (for more than a few minutes) without me. Kerplunk is also one loud box, with marbles & pixie sticks rolling around in it.
            Fact # 3: Emma was genuine; she was very upset when I lost my toe shoes – and very surprised & excited when I found them. She had no reason to hide them – and most definitely would not later put them in her own closet, especially in a game she knew we’d eventually play.

            EMMA: INNOCENT✅
            JOY: (Who is pure of heart & feels guilty if she accidentally steps on a spider): INNOCENT✅

            That leaves Nancy…who had pulled farther away from the pack, to the back, left corner of the room – but still completely in my line of sight.

            Perched, thinking…my whirling mind began having little flashbacks, like I was watching a mini-movie of key moments of my last overnight visit:
            -Me dancing my routine for Emma in their kitchen…Nancy telling me not to let Emma try on my toe shoes, which I did anyway
            -Nancy, coming out of the hallway bathroom as I entered Emma’s room, to put my toe shoes back in my overnight bag
            -Emma and I playing/watching TV in the basement for a few hours, later that night, with our PJs on
            -Nancy sitting oddly on her bed the next morning, pretending to look for my toe shoes, while everyone else was searching


            But why? Was she *that* mad at me for letting Emma try on my toe shoes? Why would she even care? And why would she then let me discover them later on, in Emma’s room? No, it must not be about me – it must be about Emma…Nancy wanted me to be mad at Emma! Other thoughts percolated up, reminding me of signs that Nancy was a little jealous of the friendship Emma & I had…Nancy always acted nice to me, even sometimes copied me (which struck me as odd) – but she was often baiting & insulting Emma, seeming to take joy in making her cry.

            The toe shoes must be Nancy’s way of taking something she knew mattered to me and setting Emma up for the blame…sweet, innocent Emma.

            I was steamed!🤯

            Then I started hearing questions emerging, from down below…

            “I don’t think we played Kerplunk, did we??” Emma suddenly asked, glancing up at me.

            I crouched way down, turning my head slightly, so only Nancy could see my face – my green eyes boring straight into Nancy’s blue ones – and I slowly said: “No…we did NOT.”

            Nancy flipped her hair to one side – but held my gaze. Nobody else had any idea what I was doing up there – my green eyes on fire 🔥 – directed at Nancy.

            “That can’t be right,” I heard Joy tease Emma, “Or it’d be supernaturally creepy, sweetie.”

            My eyes – still fixed hard on Nancy – as I pointedly said: “It IS creepy.”

            Nancy flinched. She looked away, toward the door…but not before I saw the look on her face.

            She knew…that I knew.

            Game ON.

            [Conclusion, “Empath’s Gaze,” coming soon]

          202. MommyPino says:

            Haha I’m glad that you gave her that look showing her that you knew what she did! I wouldn’t be telling the truth if I say that I never became suspicious of Emma even for just a few seconds. I did wonder if Emma liked your toe shoes a little too much and decided to keep it. But I thought that you would have definitely known that if it was the case and also her reaction of being that excited when it showed up and Nancy not helping to look for the shoes was indeed very indicative. At 12 yrs of age Nancy knew exactly what she was doing and how that can be hurtful to Emma especially. I would say, those are the kinds of things that normal people wouldn’t do. Thankfully you are very perceptive and didn’t jump into Nancy’s trap.

            I have to say my MMR sister was never that malignant. She provoked and provoked in a self righteous way and she had to have attention constantly and didn’t remember her promises and didn’t pay back what she owed but I have not seen her doing something that malicious to hurt anyone. The most malicious thing that I am aware that she did was smearing people. My brother in law seemed similar to Nancy’s wickedness when he was young and I have personally categorized him as an UMR. But it’s not official because I haven’t done a Narc Detector on him. But actually what he did we’re still not as evil as what Nancy did. His antics were more about having fun at my husband’s expense (his little brother) in a manipulative way but not really causing harm except maybe extreme embarrassment or having their mom get mad at my husband whom he thought was their mom’s favorite. I wouldn’t want to be sisters with Nancy. 😬

            I am excited to read about the conclusion but no hurries! I know that you are very busy. 💕

          203. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I really feel for you, with your Mom’s NPD – & then also your sister. Not easy. 🧡And yes, it’d be tough to have a sister like Nancy. It was a bit of a challenge to have her as a cousin growing up, in that her overall vibe could sometimes affect me (it was often a tense environment when she was around)…but the worst part, by far, was seeing how she could be as a sister to Emma…I did try to help keep the peace between the two of them, and you’ll see more of what happened with that, in my story conclusion…I think you’ll end up laughing.😊 I’ll also update you on Emma~I have some things to ask you too, with having your own situation with a sibling, especially having the dynamic you did with your Mom & sister & you.

            I think I mentioned I don’t have any sisters – all brothers (none narcs)… I’m not just the only girl in the family – I’m also the baby of the family…and ALL the males in my family are over-protective. It’s a minor miracle that I’m not being carried around on a pillow! Thank goodness I’m naturally independent-minded.

            Totally OT – but wait, pretty narc-relevant, actually… In my feverish state, I watched 3 movies on my tablet: “Girl With A Pearl Earring” (interesting/narcs galore)…”The Invisible Woman” (wow-I’d call that a triumphant Empath tale)…and “The Secret Scripture” (Have you read the book or seen that movie? It’s so maddening & heartbreaking😭).

          204. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I’m afraid that the long comment that I just typed didn’t get through because my internet connection was lost when I submitted it. I will check tomorrow if it was indeed lost. Meanwhile I wish you a safe and enjoyable travel.💕

          205. Caroline-is-fine says:

            P.S. I forgot BATMAN…Holy Broccoli, Batman! <Please don't make them eat broccoli 🥦 It will be all Caroline's fault, if the little ones have to eat broccoli.🥺

            [This comment will make no sense if it arrives before the longer one.🥴]

          206. MommyPino says:

            Also, that’s weird. Why would Nancy need your toe shoes? 😳

          207. Caroline-is-fine says:

            P.S. MP (tack-on, to my main reply)…thank you so much for your very giving, complimentary comment, about how I’ve chosen to deal with my nex-BF. It’s an encouragement to me, and I truly appreciate it. 💝 Gosh knows HE won’t compliment my efforts!! But seriously, if there is anything about me that ever inspires or comforts other Empaths, that makes my heart as fuzzy as a…🍑…or a 😺….or guys’ 🧦, when not laundered well.😛

          208. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, HG’s books Smeared and Manipulated will surely help Emma.

          209. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, MP🥰
            I thought of “Smeared” — but “Manipulated” would also be good!

          210. MommyPino says:

            My pleasure Caroline is fine! 🥰. I think that Manipulated will help with the other manipulations that Nancy might be doing to her.

          211. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is fine, I wrote a reply but the browser said that there was an error so I will write again to make sure that you will get my thank you. Thank you so much. Your words have moved me and I really am thankful for your words. You are so kind and understanding and I am grateful to receive your kindness. Thank you so much. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

          212. gabbanzobean says:


            “In a sense, they have no baseline for you to build off of, to improve upon or stabilize your relationship dynamic…so how will your over-analysis of him be effective?”

            Funny you should say this…Last time I talked to him I said “I feel like I am on eggshells, planning our conversations in advance so I know what to say. I even can predict what you will say”

            He said “I actually kind of like that….”


          213. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yes, I guess he *would* like that~a rather controlled environment!😉 Mine was controlling as well, mainly as it pertained to my interactions with others and also coming through for him — he got very exacting. He always did want to feel he had the upper hand and would want to keep me off-balance. Some gut instinct in me would just ignore a lot of that…then he’d up-the-ante to a greater pain punishment level — and I’d tap out for awhile. It was nutty…especially how I kept “adapting” to it, like I could handle it. He “tried out” a lot of stuff on me. I think my attitude was a bit of a “Really? Is that your best?” I can be my own kind of fierce, which is good AND bad, when it comes to a narc entanglement.

            Really, I think our entire relationship was like a big game of chicken-challenge. Oh, Goody! I’ve not used the chicken 🐔 emoji yet! (Nobody cares, Caroline…😔)

          214. Shelf Fuel says:

            Chicken emoji for the win!!!!

          215. Kim e says:

            gabbanzobean. Welcome to KTN. You remind me of someone that used to call herself Fuel On The Shelf but you have I believe more strength than she had.
            If while you are here learning to find yourself again, you happen to run into her please, give her a hug a wink and tell her good bye. You got this❤️🎈❤️

          216. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, NA…I agree with you – it’s a subjective experience for empaths, so it’s rather impossible to know. I did know the empath wasn’t personally upset with me – feeling what she felt, but it surprised me…it was ironic, because I was describing how something I *used* to feel was sweet/romantic that the narc did with me wasn’t actually romantic at all…it was just a big fuel-up for him. She came back on the site a few days later, so that was good.

            You’re right — we’d hardly say anything if we worried about “triggering” all the time!

          217. Kim e says:

            CIF, Triggering is very easy to unknowingly do. Just a mention of a name…remember me with W. Shakespeare?????……But you cant be worried about triggering someone. Their every day world triggers them. Shit the train station I have to walk thru every day triggers me. No way aroundit. But maybe…just maybe Miss Emoji Queen……something you say will be the tipping point for someone and the light bulb will come on.
            I have taken a break from the site just trying to forget about him. It had nothing to do with triggers. We are all different. Why is it one person can go NC 1 time and it sticks and some of us (who will go unnamed…LOL) it might take them 8 times.
            Hope trip is going well. I am out until Saturday. Later.

          218. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, Kim💙…yeah, I remember my triggering you with Shakespeare — a fine example of not being able to anticipate what will trigger others.

            See ya around the place more this weekend~be good…I mean, to MY strict standard, not yours. Lol😉

          219. Kim e says:

            Wuz up? Same ole same ole here. Weekend was good. Lots for hiking, eating, drinking, laughing,……….
            You still behaving to my high standards? (LOL)

          220. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You were drinking while hiking — and laughing while eating?😎 I’m totally behaving…and of course not to *your* standards!😂

            How are you doing, doll? In the horserace of life, is logical thinking nosing out emotional thinking?🏇🏇

          221. Kim e says:

            CIF……Nice to see you girl!!!!!
            LT is there slowly creeping up but ET is still in the front. Yesterday I unblocked and reblocked 4 times. BUT I guess the good thing is I stopped and he is still blocked.
            How about you? What you up to?

          222. Caroline-is-fine says:

            That IS good going, that you re-blocked. I saw your first comment for this thread, that you got your “carpets cleaned,” and I was about to reply: “Is that a euphemism?” Then I saw HG’s comment to you on that, and I thought, “Oh no…I’m thinking like HG…that can’t be good!”😳😂🤔

            I’m going horseback riding later on today with friends — I can’t wait! In other news, fall is my fav season, but this is also my more guilt-ridden season, regarding the narc. There are many reasons for that, but as the air cools, leaves turn, football season begins…memories hit that *still* (I can’t believe it) induce sporadic feelings of guilt. It’s not nearly as bad as it used to be, but thoughts do still spring up that I’ve “abandoned” this man and am heartless for doing so…which is ET. I also have my areas to work on, doll.

            I’m super glad to see you’re here, expressing yourself & gaining support, having some laughs, etc. I saw your reply to SMH…yes, you are a woman who needs to keep busy on the weekends. I hope you come up with some fun things you can do! But always remember to counter each emotional thought with a logical one…say the logical thought out loud or write it down — it helps. I will too.💕

            💖💨🐎 ~Caroline

          223. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I forgot to lead with the most important part: I am so glad you are sticking strong to your NC!🎉 You said the most important aspect, in a different comment…you are doing this for YOU. A healthy dose of self-love and self-protection is a very good thing. I believe it makes you even more loving & capable of giving back to others as well, because your reserves are not tapped dry by users/abusers.

            In large part, we become what we think of ourselves…and how we act because of it.💛💜💙💚❤

          224. Caroline-is-fine says:

            P.S. For MP: Your feet look so pretty!💅

          225. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you! I thought I would show it off before boots season. 🥰😘

          226. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Alright, all right. Boot season~we kick it up a notch.🤸‍♀️👢

          227. MommyPino says:


          228. Kim e says:


          229. MommyPino says:

            Haha Kim so true!! Apparently once we enter their lives they own us forever! 😬

          230. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I reject that “owning forever” concept completely, and I’m truly not trying to be a brat about it to HG…I mean, yes, narcissists *believe* that, but that’s because they have a disorder…they can believe they live in a land of lollipops — it doesn’t make it reality. 🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭

            They can bug us forever though!😏 Yes, they can.

            But I get it’s a concept, to help us understand the narcissist’s driven mentality/behaviors in relation to how they view others, and I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that HG gives us. <fixed it…🤸‍♀️

          231. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I totally agree with you. It is like what HG said about people having different perspectives and truths. In their mind they can believe that to be true but we don’t need to care about that. We do what is best for us and that means robust No Contact and GOSO. 😊

          232. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Wisdom, girl.🙋‍♀️
            #GOSO…because GetInStayInSucks

          233. MommyPino says:


          234. MommyPino says:

            Wow Caroline is fine, that is creepy that he shows up in your work area. That would freak me out and start getting me paranoid. I have never experienced such perseverance from a narc. Although I have never been in a formal relationship with any of them so maybe that is why. And also the last narc who tried to ensnare me was just a handyman and he seems to just be a lower MR so not very high energy and wouldn’t dare to do something where he could get in trouble. The highest echelon of narc that i attracted was when I was in my mid twenties and he was either an UMR or a middle Greater. It was just four really fancy dates though and I disengaged because I was moving to the US. He gave me silent treatment after I told him that I am moving to the US like he just threw away a toy. I’m glad that you are handling it all well with a balanced attitude and not letting it get you down or all paranoid. It almost looks like stalking but I may be a little off the deep end here. I hope that he will give up ASAP and that you will never have to worry about him showing up again. 💕

          235. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank You, MP❣ Yeah, it’s…not fabulous. He’s always been big on showing up unexpectedly, even in the FR. There’s definitely an entitled feeling to it. It feels more like a control move than stalking, but I guess that’s because of how I look at it. Not gonna lie, it can make me feel rather unnerved, but I work hard on looking calm on the outside & like I’m unaffected — and then I actually start feeling confident too. This last time he couldn’t find me, hooray. 😎

          236. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, that is admirable that you can look calm and unaffected from his behavior. I hope that he will never find you again and finally give up lol. He is obviously obsessed with you but hopefully he will realize that he will never achieve anything and just move on. 🤞💕

          237. Caroline-is-fine says:


          238. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oh, a side note, and this was my fault in how I worded it…his soon-to-be-ex (at the time) was “calling down” to him because he was in their basement, and she was upstairs, in the kitchen. She wasn’t yelling at him, as in not said in anger. What I found funny was here he filed for divorce from her — yet she was still being considerate enough to ask if he wanted to eat some fish she was making…yet all he could see was that SHE chose fish, and didn’t consult him — it was *her* idea to have fish, not his. 🙄

          239. MommyPino says:

            Ah thank you Caroline is fine for clarifying. It’s totally not your fault. I’m sure that you worded it perfectly. It’s just that English is my second language and sometimes I can have poor understanding of the nuances of sentences.
            Haha it was still funny though! We really could never win with narcissists! They will always find something wrong with us or what we do. You are right though that it really is a huge red flag. She was doing something nice to him and being magnanimous about the whole situation of their relationship and he was still belly aching that he didn’t choose fish (lack of control). It really is amazing that we can now see and understand all of this after our education here at Narcsite. 😊

          240. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You do great with English! 🤗No, I really was not clear. I didn’t explain it fully. I only said “yelled down” — yelled down to what?! A wishing well? Hades? 🤪

          241. MommyPino says:

            Dogs are probably closer to Saviors.

          242. NarcAngel says:

            I know dogs have been to me. Taught me more about loyalty and companionship than people ever did. Animals in general but dogs more specifically are what let me know I was not dead inside as a kid.

          243. MommyPino says:

            NarcAngel, I agree, dogs are amazingly beautiful animals. I have never seen any other animals in general exhibit such degree of devotion that dogs are capable of.

          244. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            MommyPino: Birds are mostly somatics. They feel that the feathers are always fluffier, and the sky is always bluer, and the seeds are always tastier, and the weather is always better, somewhere else.

          245. MommyPino says:

            Haha PSE that’s a good point about birds. I haven’t thought of that. But they are so beautiful that we probably can’t blame them for being Somatic lol.

          246. Mommy Pino: And of course Birds admire themselves for being able to fly. Birds wonder what took mankind so long to be able to fly, and Birds wonder why do we have to depend upon a large, clumsy and loud machine to be able to do so. Then, tiring quickly of thinking, Birds lift their wings and fly so smoothly away. No check-ins. No removing their shoes. No tickets. No passports. No baggage.

          247. MommyPino says:

            PSE, I think that you are right about birds being narcish. Where I live I see a lot of ugly turkey vultures devouring dead squirrels and deers. They make me think of Lessers. 😝

          248. Caroline-is-fine says:

            There are several birds that freak me out…Like evil Ostriches & Rheas…they frighten me.😱 Also, I was unfortunate enough to have to watch Hitchcock’s “The Birds” in junior high, and now even blackbirds are suspect!🙄

          249. MommyPino says:

            Haha The Birds is one of the creepiest movies I have ever seen. Bodega Bay is in my bucket list of places to visit because of the movie and also because coastal towns are pretty. I haven’t seen that movie until I was 26 and it still scared the crap out of me. It was well done. Now that I think about it, birds always look creepy on films except when they are animated like in Rio and Happy Feet. Even the pigeons scene in Home Alone creeps me out. 😊

      2. lisk says:

        LOL, you just cracked me up, NA!

    2. fox says:

      Sorry I changed my name and picture so I could feel better about posting. So I have suspicions that my step mom is a narc (she certainly is something lol) and my dad does not stand up to her. So I’ll try to keep this simple. Once when I was young and I lost my job and started another immediately but needed to borrow a little money to pay the rent on time. My step mom convinced my dad that I could not handle life on my own and they paid to break my lease and forced me to move back in with them immediately. I begged them not to do this but I had no say in the matter. They also paid off my car. The entire time I lived with them she treated me like a burden. They sold or stole things I owned because I owed them. I ended up running to another relative to get away from them and basically had to start my life fresh and slowly got back on my feet. I vowed never to ask them for help again and stuck to it.

      Years later they were still harping about the money they lent me, and so when I finally found myself in a comfortable financial position I brought them the money in cash. My step mom refused to take it. It turned out she had been giving my step brother lots of money, and if I paid it back what I owed, it would mean he would also have to, so she turned down the money and generously absolved me of my debt. I told them both I never wanted to hear about the debt ever again and so far they have not brought it up. But to this day my step brother milks them for money.

      So that is one thing that came to mind when I read this. I know it’s not quite the same, as she never really seemed to show concern so much as disdain for me, but I thought I’d share. Thanks, HG for the excellent post.

      1. fox says:

        And I almost feel guilty now posting this, here I am complaining that my parents made me take their money when other have it so much worse. 🙁

        1. Caroline R says:

          Two things:
          1) you can type really well with paws and claws!
          Well done with your furry self!

          2) I appreciated your honesty in your comments.
          What you wrote is how you felt.

          You have nothing to feel guilty about.
          I understand that feeling, it’s part of working through the cognitive dissonance we have from our relationship with a N-parent.

          We’re so used to putting a gloss on their abuses, minimising the pain so that we can survive, gaslighting ourselves and believing their propaganda to survive, that acknowledging the truth feels painful and disloyal.
          We’ve been conditioned to expect spiteful retribution for disloyalty, so speaking the truth makes us feel very uncomfortable for a while.

          You have a right to say what happened.
          You have a right to speak the truth.
          We all understand, and we support you.

          1. fox says:

            Thanks Caroline. I know you are right and thank you for the support. There is so much more than just this one instance, this one just happened to change the course of my life. But I like to look on the bright side. I live far enough away now that I can keep a safe distance from the drama and I found so many genuine, loving people living here that I would call family. In some ways it feels like a blessing in disguise.

          2. Caroline R says:

            Thank you for your reply.
            You’re most welcome!
            I’m glad that you have some people that feel like family to you now. A blessing in disguise is always a good surprise.

  23. MommyPino says:

    Excellent post HG!! This is beyond belief true.

    I have always thought that it’s weird when my MR sister always asked me if I’m ok as if she saw something in my face where I looked sad even though there was nothing bothering me at all and I was even having a good time. One time she got me so angry when my son was 6 months old and I took her to the mall so she can go shopping because she didn’t have a car. My son was in the stroller and he was having fun touching all of the clothing which happened to be women’s because we were shopping at the women’s section. She was commenting repeatedly how much my baby likes women’s clothes which I ignored. I was having a feeling that she was passive aggressively provoking me because she knew that I was religious and she was ignorant or judgmental about my faith so I just totally ignored her pettiness. On our way to my car she stopped walking and turned around me with a sad and worried face and told me, “I need you to promise me that if he turns out to be gay someday you will still love him.” I was so insulted and taken aback that all I could blurt out was, “How dare you.” I told her, “How dare you minimize my love for him. You have no idea how much I love him so please just shut up.” And she acted like she was shocked at me and she still said things trying to convince me that being gay isn’t bad but eventually stopped because I was quiet. It was not a pleasant drive home.

    My cousin had a funny story about my mom which she was laughing when she was telling us this story. She said that my mom visited her at her house and was so excited to give her a pair of earrings. My mom took it out of her purse and put it on her ear immediately. She was trying to stop my mom’s hands because her ears were not pierced but my mom insisted on pushing the earring post into her ear lobe as she was starting to scream and she finally stood up with her ear bleeding. She told my mom that she will just put the other earring someday. She said she was feeling guilty about refusing my mom’s gift but it was really painful so she had to wrestle with my mom to escape her earring attack.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

      1. MommyPino says:

        HG, this article describes my mom’s engulfing parenting to me to a tee. Is it possible that I have wrongly classified her as a Lower Lesser when she was actually a Middle Lesser? She was also helpful to her relatives in an overbearing way. She even built houses for my grandma and uncle with the money that my dad sent her for me. Would a Lower Lesser have that grandiosity?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Narc Detector will provide the answer.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thank you HG. I’ll think about it. Although she’s already dead so it probably doesn’t matter that much anymore. 🤷‍♀️

        2. Lorelei says:

          MP—I just can’t see you rising from the ashes of a total LL! You are a princess!

          1. MommyPino says:

            Aww thank you Lorelei. 🥰❤️❤️😘

  24. WhoCares says:

    Wow. I recognize this.
    You SO know your narcissists, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Fucking A, I do, WC!

  25. strongerwendyme says:

    Always enjoy a new post. Excellent!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  26. Caroline-is-fine says:

    OMG…I would lose my ever-loving mind if someone did this to me!!! This is smothering, condescending, controlling behavior to the max. Wowser.

    I guess it’s no wonder this type has never wandered my way. My Mom says the first 3 (if broken) sentences I uttered were: “I do it. You not do it. Just I do.”

    What? It’s adorable…really.😂

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Very adorable! Good girl Kimmy 😉

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        Thanks, Tappi.🥰 (And, pretty much, I’m the same today…this “charming” 🤔trait lives on. Oh joy?🤩)

        1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

          Joy for you Caroline, ultimately, that’s all that matters!

          In case my comment ‘good girl kimmy’ seems cryptic to some, it’s a catchphrase from a famous Australian comedy series, Kath and Kim. Many lines from it have slipped into Aussie slang.

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Love that💚…I didn’t realize it was an Aussie saying~I just figured it was a “good girl” with a name thrown in, for good measure…I love that this site affords ways to learn neat things about countries other than our own, while we polish our narc education.😎 (Ironically, I was reading up on the Great Barrier Reef just last night🧜‍♀️).

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Caroline is fine
      Haha. Cute. My mom says the first word I said was no! Sounds about right.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        NA, love it😂…it proves the point that some aspects are just genetic. Then again, with me, maybe my little baby/toddler self had long been thinking: “This lady is starting to bother me.” Let’s go with personality + LEARNED behavior! 😂

  27. kel2day says:

    Yuck! I can’t imagine this behavior working very often. I have a woman at work that imposes this kind of stuff on me or used to do it more- it just irritates me and makes me distance myself from her. Very controlling right down to ordering something at lunch!! Even when I lightheartedly get after her for it, she doesn’t stop. And I particularly hate for someone like that to ask out of the blue if I’m ok when all I’m demonstrating is positive stuff, and then can’t even give me a reason why they’d ask.

    What’s funny is before I realized she’s a narcissist too, I had confided in her in great detail about the bosses narcissism. She wanted to hear everything, share secrets between just us. Some of it might be mirroring and so on, but she has opinions on her own about politics and people that I’m of like mind about. Narcs are normal people with a twist that veers off at the end, like something tastes great but has just an odd aftertaste at the end that stays with you.

  28. Jess says:

    This is a different breed then the Angel with a Dirty Face?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  29. Tappi Tikarrass says:

    My maternal grandmother was a lot like this.
    Glad she wasn’t my mum! So overbearing.

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Forgot to select ‘notify me of new comments’

      ✅ Done

    2. E. B. says:

      If you do not stop them at an early stage, they become aggressively intrusive.

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Too right E.B.
        My mum eloped with my dad at 17. Nanna was apparently hysterical that she ran off with him. Poor mum, she went from the frying pan into the fire. Mum was keen to leave the city they all lived in but dad wasn’t as keen and so it didn’t happen.

        Out of 5 children, there was one who also became an overwhelming angel. I cut her off a long time ago due to her interfering whilst I was divorcing my husband (not narc). 2 narcissists in total were created out of the 5.

  30. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: Or, when they can not reach you, they have authorities breach your property for a Wellness Check, etc. After Which, you feel pressured to answer their messages, because you do not want the breach of your dwelling again via a Wellness Check. This is a way to imprison a person under the guise of concern. I once had a friend pull this on me more than once. I slowly was becoming her prisoner. With difficulty, I was able to end the friendship in a somewhat amiable fashion. I know from being on Narcsite that she is probably a lower victim narcissist. Her last boyfriend had a stroke and is institutionalized. Thankfully, she has a new boyfriend and she largely has no time for me, since I always am busy when I see her, and I say hello, but I never allow my feet to stop walking. I made my break a few years ago when she started lovebombing the new guy. I never reopened the door when she started coming back around after she had successfully ensnared him. It is possible that she wanted me to be her constant NIPPS, between her entanglements. Non intimate partner primary source, between entanglements, because we lived in the same apartment complex, and I did help her with various paperwork, her finances, etc, but I did not know about victim Narcissists. I believe she would be diagnosed with NPD, because she performs the Narcissistic classic cycle of lovemboming, devaluation and disengaging, and hoovering over and over. And she exhibits bouts of fury and hatred and the desire to smear and exact revenge.

    1. Caroline R says:

      “breach your property for a wellness check”

      You’ve just reminded me about my ex-neighbour mid-ranger N, who I was largely ignoring because she was… well, a N….

      My garage door was stuck open for a couple of weeks until I could get it assessed.
      One day two police officers came to check on me.
      I was astonished!
      They said “your gadage door is open, your neighbours haven’t seen you in a while and were concerned…”
      “Well clearly I’m not dead, so I’m sorry that they’ve wasted your time…”
      They asked me would I like them to go and speak to the neighbours, and of course I declined.
      The neighbours didn’t even mention it the next time we spoke which was some months later. It was obviously just a manipulative stunt on their part.

      More fake BS, just like my sister’s behaviour. They seemed to have many similarities.
      The official statement of the purpose of any given behaviour is always BS, and meaningless. It’s all provocation and for fuel.

      The police were both broad-shouldered and handsome, and spoke to me in a kind and protective manner, so it had an upside….

      1. Caroline: It is so crazy!!! Such behaviour could make one paralyzed and paranoid. I started answering all her messages, and I would tell her whenever I would be away. I had to report in, so to speak. It was awful. After such breaches one is afraid to go on vacation or leave home for awhile, worrying that a breach is going on inside ones dwelling And the authorities knock very loud and are suspicious of being blindsided when making a breach as well. They do not know if they are dealing with a psycho with a gun or something hiding inside. And, neighbors wonder what is going on and become suspicious of you when they peek and see some breach going on with some authorities at the front door your dwelling. Like maybe you are cooking up meth or doing something else illegal.

        1. Caroline-is-dine says:

          Oh my…that’s the feel of a hostage situation. What really struck me with this fake angel category is that it’s just like a relentless stalker — but it’s “kill with kindness.”😳

        2. lisk says:

          This is awful. I want to be put on the “Do Not Check on Wellness” list, if there is such a thing. And if there isn’t list, they should make one. If I’m dead, I’m dead. You’ll smell my rotting body eventually!

          1. Caroline R says:


  31. KellyD says:

    For some reason Jody Arias popped into my head when I read this

  32. MB says:

    HG, I attributed much of his behavior to rampant paranoia. The “war-torn Syria” reference is entirely apt. It’s just the freaking mall! He’s the same way with his child. Doesn’t want her out of his sight and if she is, he calls and FaceTimes. Like she is juicy bait and everybody that sees her will want to kidnap her. Is it paranoia that drives much of the manipulations you outline in this article?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Control. The paranoia is the fear of a threat to the control.

      1. MB says:

        Thank you HG.

  33. Jess says:

    Well holy shit…… This is familiar.

  34. MB says:

    OMG, this is my sister’s husband 🤢 of course I already knew he was a Narc. (Thanks to HGTU!)

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