The Narcissist and Film

The recent analysis of the television programme “Big Little Lies” provided an opportunity to see a number of narcissists from a variety of schools “in action” with a wide range of portrayals.

With your improved knowledge and understanding, here is an opportunity for you to identify and explain those films where you consider that a main character is a narcissist and why. The floor is yours. Identify the film and the character (and you can do as many as you wish) where you believe that film to amount to an excellent portrayal or a “best fit” portrayal of a narcissist.

Remember, it is the character(s) not the person playing them that are identified as narcissists.

Let’s see who you suggest and feel free to constructively debate the choices of others. This will enable you to flex your learning and potentially have exposure to some further information and learning through either fictional film or television programme.



  1. Has anyone mentioned some of Ryan Gosling’s movies yet? His character, based on Robert Durst, in All Good Things, was a good one.

    Cate Blanchett’s character in Blue Jasmine..

    1. wildviolet22,
      I’ve not seen anyone mentioned those movies. I’ll look into them sometime – thanks.

  2. HG I just watched ‘Catch Me If You Can’, about a con-artist. It was really good. He jumps into different roles, it reminded me of the one who choked me. Pretending to be various roles, all about appearances and nothing about merit. A phony and a fake. It’s based on a true story HG. You’ve probably seen it but if not you should 💙

    1. Hi Whitney, I loved that movie. Such an interesting character and obviously a narcissist. I bet he was a Greater or an Upper MR.

  3. Far From the Madding Crowd

    Hi Caroline is fine!

    My guess is that Batsheba Everdene is a Carrier Super Empath.
    Gabriel Oak is a Standard Carrier Empath.
    Sergeant Frank Troy is a Middle Mid-Range Narcissist.
    William Boldwood is an Upper Mid-Range Narcissist.

    How did I do Caroline? 😝

    1. MP,
      I could NOT wait to see your results (I’ve been up half the night with a sick kitty, so I altered my work schedule)…we are SO close. I completely agree on the first two. I do think Batsheba Everdene also has some Magnet in her. Now the last two…I really want to discuss!

      Oh, and I so ❤Gabriel❣

      Off to work I go…more later🙂

      1. MP,
        I’m back!🤸‍♀️

        Ok, I’ll start with the soldier first…

        I’m super interested on why you peg him as MMR. I can definitely see aspects of the pity party/whine fest in him at times, especially with how he became obsessive on his “first, one true love/whoa is me for losing her,” and he for sure lacked self-awareness because of his inability to see his self-sabotaging ways, so he was certainly no Greater (and for me, no UMR, for very similar reasons)…

        I thought of him as an Upper Lesser by the end of the movie, as I was swayed by his nasty, verbal assaults toward our SE & his underlying threat of violence toward her, as he got so totally & foolishly out of control in fury, like when he came back that very last time, with the scene outdoors with her. He was an interesting character to me, as in the beginning of the movie, I thought he’d be a serious player and real (capable) charmer, like with that first scene in the woods with her – how there was all that sexual tension and an air of seductive danger to him, with how he dominated her with his knives/sword – both scaring her some and exciting her, and with him taking it only so far, so he seemed to have a sense of self-control, of knowing how far and when to pull back…so at first, I was thinking he was going to end up being an UMR, because they can have that enticing danger to them, like “cat and mouse” seduction, pacing it out, well-prepared but bold…but the soldier ended up being so reckless, openly belligerent and crudely threatening to our SE (goodbye self-control and pacing of his actions on anything!) – that I way downgraded him to Upper Lesser. He was just too out of control (in foolhardy ways), that I felt like a Midranger would have pulled back from most of that, especially if given time & space, which he had. He was so self-sabotaging, and even his revenge “plan” was no real plan at all – he just seemed lost in his own recklessness. I mean, look how he ended up, lol! (I’m trying not to ruin the movie for those who may read this). Also, the charm offensive I thought he would have was something he just couldn’t seem to sustain at all; in fact, that scene in the woods was about it, if I remember right. So for me, he was like a slow, imploding disaster waiting to happen.

        I’m totally open to being convinced he’s a Midranger though…I know you understand how Lessers operate much better. I don’t think I have *any* personal experience with Lessers!🤔

        1. Hi Caroline is fine,

          I want to write a separate comment on Boldwood tomorrow but I want to focus on the soldier for now.

          What made me think that he’s a MMR is because when he was asking money from Batsheba (to give to Fanny), she said no to him and his way to control the situation was to leave which is a MR move. If he was a Lesser I would expect him to yell and throw or break stuff to scare her and even physically hurt her and not stop until she gives him the money. Another thing that made me think he is a MR is when he disappeared after Fanny died which I think is another MR move. He is definitely not an UMR because of his lack of sophistication. He is not an Upper Lesser because I thought that he was too lazy to be one. I believe that Upper Lessers are not as lazy as the lower echelon Mid Rangers. Upper Lessers can actually be very energetic and they can be like an overwhelming angel asserting themselves where they do not really belong. That soldier reminded me of my MMR sister who was proud to live off of the unemployment benefits from being fired and she used to brag in a haughty way that they were so stupid to fire her and she still came out on top because her unemployment was basically paying her to sit on her butt and watch movies all day. When he told Batsheba that she had the most beautiful face he has ever seen that night when he was giving her the stare with the lamp right on her face (lack of boundary and objectification) I thought that that ridiculous flattery and also other instances that he used flowery words is definitely a Middle Mid-Range and not a Lower Mid-Range. I believe that male narcissists are more physical and brute than female narcissists so even male Mid-Rangers can potentially be violent but I think what makes them MR and not Lessers is the heavier reliance on various silent treatments instead of tirades or physical harm.

          I don’t think I have seen you lately on Narcsite. I hope that you are ok Caroline is fine. Hoping you had a great weekend! 💕

          1. Hi, sweet MP❤ I’m doing great~I’ll be back after the holidays (in 2020). I’m saving your very interesting messages, to reply to later…I love all your insights❣
            Have a most beautiful Christmas 🎄, & I’m wishing you continued blessings & abundance in 2020🎉

          2. Aww I’m going to miss you but next year is not that far away. I hope that you have the most lovely and blessed Christmas and New Year celebrations. I wish you all the best for the next year. Take care and I’m looking forward to your comments. I will write my comment regarding Boldwood tonight but you can just save it for next year as well. 😘🎄💞

          3. Hello Sweet Caroline,

            About Boldwood, I think that you are right about him not being a narcissist. I thought that his behaviors were not normal and I couldn’t think of a disorder other than narcissism to diagnose him with. My only basis was that he objectified her when he told her that it doesn’t matter if she didn’t have desire or passion towards him and that it’s ok if she will just marry him for convenience. So I did more research and found about Obsessive Love Disorder:

            I didn’t see haughtiness, superiority or contempt from Boldwood that is usually present in narcissists. Boldwood also seemed very honorable and decent. The only abnormal thing was his obsession with her where he actually purchased gowns and jewelry for her in his house before she even agreed to marry him which I thought was creepy. So he is probably a Normal who experienced OLD towards Batsheba.

            “Obsessive love disorder” (OLD) refers to a condition where you become obsessed with one person you think you may be in love with. You might feel the need to protect your loved one obsessively, or even become controlling of them as if they were a possession.

            “ Symptoms of OLD may include:

            an overwhelming attraction to one person
            obsessive thoughts about the person
            feeling the need to “protect” the person you’re in love with
            possessive thoughts and actions
            extreme jealousy over other interpersonal interactions
            low self-esteem
            People who have OLD may also not take rejection easily. In some cases, the symptoms could worsen at the end of a relationship or if the other person rejects you. ”

            Lots of love to you on the holidays Caroline is fine. I hope that you enjoy everyone’s company and feel the love from everyone that you care about. ❤️🎄😘

          4. You may well have failed to identify the haughtiness, superiority and/or contempt or it did not manifest as it is not always evident with certain narcissists, take for example a Victim MMR Narcissist.
            Do not place any credence in OLD. It is a load of old rubbish.

          5. HG,
            Respectfully, I’d like to be able to go back and forth with MP on the films we see without you giving your insight/knowledge right away, as it gives us a chance to hash it out, which allows us the freedom to think for ourselves/apply what we’ve learned — and perhaps, gain more in the back-and-forth process. If after all that hashing, you wanted to correct what you see as errors in our thinking, I’d find that beneficial.

          6. You are welcome to advance your views CIF. Whether I have time to correct erroneous observations and/or praise accurate ones, remains to be seen.

          7. HG,
            I find your response interesting…given my assertive yet respectful request, I wondered if/how you would retain control while also not diminishing me. It’s a really good example of how a Greater would handle the Caroline Empath (& associated factors). Maybe, just maybe, you *are* an Ultra.

            Merry Christmas! 🎁

          8. HG,
            Yeah, well…I was taking the scenic route. Holy Holly Berries! You’ve decorated the screen for Christmas…I like what you’ve done with the place.🙂

          9. 🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️

          10. Happy New Year Caroline is Fine!! I wish you many blessings for 2020!!

            About the film, yes I totally agree with you that Gabriel was manipulated. And I bet that Gabriel has some martyr cadre in him as well as he was willing to give up his very heart’s desire like you said for what he thought would be the best for everybody (but him). I have always had some inclination and have done similar things ever since my childhood and HG said that I have a small martyr cadre in me. And I agree with him that it is small but it is there. 😜

            I think Caroline, you picked a wonderful film to analyze as it seems that the way Boldwood’s MR behaviors were depicted in this movie is very close to how deceiving they are in real life. I felt that Boldwood offered Gabriel the job to have more control over him and the situation of having Gabriel as a competitive against Batsheba. Boldwood knew that Batsheba respected and trusted Gabriel and so he did his pity play to Gabriel that morning after the storm and wedding night. When Gabriel was hurting to see Boldwood ad Batsheba sing together you can feel his pain watching them then looking down then watching them again trying to appear normal (because he didn’t want people to notice that he was hurting and he didn’t want to make a fuss).

            Batsheba rejecting Boldwood’s proposal must have been a challenge fuel for him and so he became obsessed with having her no matter what as he couldn’t cope with the lack of control from being rejected and not wanted by her. I had a hard time accepting that his obsession was normal but I didn’t see malice in him so I struggled with identifying him as a narcissist without hesitation. But now I see the amazing desire for him to control and also him showing to Gabriel the ring that he got for Batsheba and his planned proposal and then him telling Gabriel that she will accept his proposal like there is no other right answer is very manipulative and controlling and almost reminded me of former frenemies who compete by killing your desire for something by telling you how much they want it and almost making you feel guilty for wanting the same thing. So I con therefore conclude that Boldwood is a Victim MMR frenemy of Gabriel lol.

            And yes, Gabriel is delicious but I’m not allowed to entertain unwholesome thoughts about him as I am already married lol.

          11. Happy Early New Year, MP❣ I got up super early today (4 a.m.), as one of my careers calls (which I’d love to say what it actually is, because I’d have such fun discussing both with you, but both of them are too defining, sigh…oh well🤐).

            First off, about the martyr off-shoot with Empaths…I’d like to read more about that. It seems like a lot of empaths would have some of that in them, as many of us tend to act more for others, putting ourselves last at times, so maybe I see it as more of an unselfish trait — if not taken to an extreme. I see myself that way in circumstances as well, so maybe we can look at it as a noble or good quality to an *extent*…but one that needs to be watched at times, as self-care & self-respect is a mighty important aspect too — so we don’t want it to become something that’s betraying ourselves…well, “betraying” is too strong of a word, but you probably know what I mean. For me, I maybe can think of it in a practical way to watch the perspective on it, like: “apply your own oxygen mask first, before you can help another.” In other words, we need to be strong within ourselves and take good care of ourselves, so that we don’t become depleted or ill-equipped — because we cannot even be good/helpful from a place of strength FOR others — if we haven’t empowered (or replenished) ourselves.

            Back to Boldwood…I agree with all your examples, which were great…and I know it’s just a film, but it helped me to contrast my nex with Boldwood, to *see* Boldwood as an MMR-victim, because even though my nex has pulled the illness card a few times, he’s persona and direct/charmer ways are so opposite of Boldwood that it helped clarify it more for me…Boldwood (despite that name) is muted down and seems so harmless…and he’s passive aggressive — yes, I see it. My nex is calm/cool in manner like sunshiny Gabriel, in one sense (like Golden times), but he’s also domineering & aggressive, on the flip. Anyway, Boldwood came off as a pitying character, like you felt sorry for him without really knowing why! That should have been a tip-off for me. It’s fairly subtle, how he works people and their emotions, but he seemed weak/like someone to be helped. Even though he’s portrayed as a boss, he doesn’t come off as powerful. I think he threw me off because I know a few autistic people very well, and he seemed to have some autistic traits, like black-and-white thinking — getting real stuck (like on our SE). So I chalked the other aspects (his interactions) into that autistic element, and once I did that, I stopped looking at him as a potential narcissist.

            Shoot, I lost this twice, so am sending before it happens again! Before I scurry off, it’s so great to “see” ya, MP.❤ I hope your Christmas was wonderful~mine was…I can’t believe it’s almost 2020. I look forward to more convos with you, on this film (maybe others too) & other stuff.🤍

            P.S. Do you know if HG wrote specifics on the martyr or contagion? I can’t find either specifically, but maybe he wrapped info on both of those into other articles.

          12. Thank you Caroline💞. I would love to know more about you but I totally agree that with the caliber and tenacity of the narcissist you got entangled with it’s so much better to be cautious.
            I should probably be more cautious with info about me too.

            I agree with you that the martyr is most likely present in most empaths. But I believe not all. I haven’t found material on it yet but HG said that information on it can be found in Chained. I have seen several commenters here mention that they have the martyr in their cadres as well. For me it’s the smallest percentage and it’s a really small amount that I can’t remember at the top of my head. I asked HG if the martyr cadre is the same as the martyr or victim mentality and he said no. It rarely manifests in me but one example I can remember at this moment was when my dad was dying he had put in his estate that I am entitled to equal portions as all of my half siblings. My EMR half sister protested and her last request to him was to put in his will to disqualify me from everything that their mother owned. My dad was stubborn (he may have been an SE Savior/Magnet) and made clear to all of us that I am entitled to take anything that I want as long the total is it is equal in value to theirs. He said that it is impractical to write on the will what she wanted. My normal (but empathic) half brother was the executor and told me that I can take whatever I wanted because it’s just stuff so he said don’t worry about our sister. My martyr trait(I think 🤔) manifested in that I made a pact with my sister that I will not take anything that belonged to their mom out of respect for them since I am our dad’s secret love child and I was aiming for healing for her mostly. So I told her that I will ask her before I claim an item if that item belonged to her mom. Well, it backfired on me because everything that had value or beautiful she said belonged to their mom. And she even provoked many times by saying that she’s not really sure but because it’s beautiful and their mom had great taste then it probably belonged to her with a smirk of superiority and even told me that I can take that tin candle holder instead (that looked like a craft item from Michael’s). Needless to say since the martyr in me was so small, I reneged my promise and did my revenge by emailing my brother and claiming several valuable items that I knew belonged to their mom. And he immediately gave them to me and he never brought that issue back to me again. It wasn’t my proud moment but I’m glad that my brother doesn’t seem to care. I didn’t keep them by the way. I sold them for a lower value. It was just my way of standing up for myself. I think that is how the martyr cadre manifests. It is something that empaths do because they believe that they are suspending the desire of their hearts for something that is more important. And I agree with you, my guess too is that majority if empaths have that. Anyway, I mentioned my brother, I can easily write a novel about how wonderful him and his wife are but I have to control myself lol. Enough about me lol.

            I totally agree with what you said that we have to empower ourselves and replenish first in order to help others. I have mentioned to Getting There that I will be doing a lot of self improvement stuff this 2020. I will make a decision if I want to get an accounting related part time job or stay at home full time and get my CPA. The salary, health care and retirement benefits of having a job even if it’s part time is really attractive though. But I have to make a decision that I will never regret because I have given it a lot of thought. And you are one of my inspirations because you are obviously successful and happy in what you do and Getting There is my inspiration too so I want to get to that point where I am feeling more capable to help people without having to ask my husband and to have more people depend on what I contribute like in a company.

            I think the difference in the personas of your NEx and Boldwood could be the difference in their schools. If Boldwood is a Medium Mid-Range then he is definitely more helpless in his persona than an upper echelon one like an Upper MR or a Greater or even an Upper Lesser. I have two half sisters and the older is a total bitch (Upper Lesser) while the younger one who was a Middle Mid-Range was the helpless one even though she wasn’t a victim cadre. I think the upper echelon narcissists are the bad ass kinds.

            I agree that Boldwood got muted ever since she rejected his first proposal. He could also have been experiencing a reality gap.

            I am so happy to read from you again and I am looking forward to more conversations with you about anything!!! 😘😘😘❤️

          13. Hi Caroline is Fine💞. I just want to say that I have a long comment awaiting moderation and it’s probably long winded and just a lot of rambling anyway so it can wait lol. Just want to say one last Happy New Year to you and that it’s so wonderful to read from you again!!! I’m very glad that your Christmas was great and mine was too. All the best for us in 2020!!🥂❤️

          14. Happy New Year, sweet MP❣🤸‍♀️ I will be back on here next week, but I don’t see your long post, which I know I’ll enjoy~did you save it to possibly resend? I would hate to miss it.
            Abundant blessings wished for you & your family in 2020~love ya❣🤸‍♀️XO

          15. Caroline is super sweet❣️ I will give it a couple of days more and if I don’t see my long comment I will just reply to you again. Sometimes the moderation takes a bunch of days but if it didn’t go through it’s no biggie. I haven’t saved it this time and I honestly don’t remember what I have said. I will just read your comment that I replied to again and reply to it as if I have read it the first time which is not really a big deal and I will probably have my ideas and thoughts more organized than my first comment attempt. Have a wonderful rest of the week and weekend to you. Love you too!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

          16. MP,
            Ok, sweetheart~I look forward to it…As 2020 has now arrived at our doorstep, I wanted to take a minute to encourage you on your journey. I really sense that you’re coming into this new year in mighty fine shape, with your love, peace and inner strength. 💛I feel led to share a few things with you…

            It’s obvious to me you’re someone who has done a lot of reflecting and inner work, over time…sifting through your past and making sense of your walk. You seek truth, while allowing yourself the freedom to authentically feel what you feel…which has allowed for you to maintain a very kind heart, along with the ability to be healthfully assertive, in refreshingly non-posturing ways. I’m sure you’ve found that when you’re at peace with yourself, the outside environment may still bring stress, yes it sure can – but it can never affect you in quite the same way…you’ve dealt with so much within your original family, but please know that I see it bringing some real positives to your life today, in how you dig deeper (which is strength – to be able to face it & do that) — and in how you are able to center yourself and know your own specialness, with non-attention seeking humility…not expecting yourself to be perfect; and in also humbling yourself to others, when your heart leads you to do so. Life is a complicated juggling act of mind & heart, but I see you maintaining the ability to respect yourself & give yourself love, throughout whatever you face — much as you give your own family members that type of unconditional love.❤

            Because you have dug in and done the inner work, you’ve given yourself priceless gifts, which cannot be taken away from you:
            – the confidence to step up to challenges with a calm that you can face them
            – a decreased need to look to others for approval/reassurance
            – a greater ability to be concerned with doing right, not being right
            – your mood and stability centered more securely inside yourself, not so dependent on circumstance

            Well done, my friend.❤ Catch up with ya next week.

          17. Caroline is Fine, thank you so much for sharing this with me. I am not sure if I deserve all of what you wrote; I know I can be a pain in the butt and I have my bad parts as well. I just know that I am very blessed to have you as my friend here and you have no idea how much you have helped me. You’re always willing to listen and to share yourself. You are so inspiring and there’s a spirit of kindness, innocence, and cheerfulness coming from you whenever you talk all wrapped up in an elegant way. You are simply amazing. I do not wonder for one second why your NEx doesn’t want to give you up and can’t cope with permanently losing you. I am just happy that you spend time with me and you interact with me. At times that I feel like walking on eggshells with the way I interact here, you and Getting There just encourage me by interacting with me without a sliver of judgment or suspicion. I still have a lot of work to do within myself but I have indeed come a long way, thanks to the knowledge from HG’s work. It is still a messy evolution for me but I am very optimistic. 💞💯

          18. MP,
            Aw, thank you, darlin’💕 I saw your comment when I came back on my Tablet, as I had a way-too-delayed reply in my draft folder to someone else on another thread, so I was trying to finally send it…but regarding your reply, rest assured we are ALL evolving continually, and life IS messy! I guess if it’s not messy, we’re living in a bubble…which, not gonna lie, I need a bubble at times, as we all probably do. But you do deserve the words I spoke – very much so!

            I apologize for this next evilness, but remember when I told you I went to that “game night” and 80s music was part of it? Ok, so I ventured back there again last night (with my man – not Gabriel, someone else, lol – and with some friends)…and it was 70s music, which was really fun. BUT (oh-my-gawd, help me!), I cannot get this song (below) out of my head. I warn you, if you play it, it may swirl around in your head so much you “knock three times” in random places, like I accidentally did, while holding a little box of cherry tomatoes in the grocery store today (yes, really – I then looked around to see if anyone saw me…a cute, blonde-haired boy did, but he smiled, like I was not at all nutty, so that was good).😬

            (Saw your longer comment – looking forward to reading it & will reply back this week!)

          19. MP,
            P.S. Oops! I screwed up my music link…but it’s Tony Orlando, singing “Knock Three Times”…I’m NEVER gonna get that song out of my head…he loves some girl, an apartment below…wants her to knock 3 times on the ceiling if she wants him…twice on the pipes, if the answer is “no”…😱

          20. Haha hi Caroline is musical 💞. They play that song a lot whenever I shop at Cost Less. They play a lot of upbeat old songs there. I have heard that playing upbeat songs at the stores make customers buy more and be more willing to try out new products. I can understand how it can get stuck in your head. His big voice and inflections and the back up singers do that to me too whenever I shop there. And I sometimes catch myself reacting to it with the way I push my cart too 😂.

            One unrelated trivia about the singer, his other song Tie A Yellow Ribbon actually helped inspire the peaceful People Power Revolution in my home country. People tied yellow ribbons around trees to welcome the arrival of an exiled Senator who became the fiercest critic of our former dictator Marcos (who I believe was a Greater Narcissist) and his infamous shoe loving wife Imelda. When he returned though he was shot dead as he was getting out of the plane. People revolted and placed his widow as the new president. She has lead the amendment of the constitution to prevent another dictator from uprising. She has worn yellow clothing since her husband’s death. The song has also been used by the protesters in Hong Kong since 2014.

            I hope that your week is going wonderful. My daughter caught flu since Sunday so I have been very busy with her and exhausted from our lack of sleep. She is starting to get better now though. 🤞

          21. Hi, MP❣🤸‍♀️
            First, I’m so sorry your darling girl has the flu. 😥I pray it’s more of a mild upper respiratory issue than the stomach bug…as it’s so hard to watch wee ones endure the horrid stomach bug variety😫…
            I did know about the song/revolution/assassination, but I did *not* know about his widow wearing only yellow clothing…such sweet dedication. What an intense time that was in your home country’s history~but inspiring too. I’ve always wanted to know more, from your perspective, about your home country…and I’ve always wondered when you left and how that came about…but is that too personal to put on the site? It’s totally okay, if it is.💛

            Yes, the SHOE LADY. 👠I swear that her name is synonymous with a zillion shoes on shelves, for so many worldwide…makes one think a bit carefully on excess or focus, as who wants to be known for shoes?…Well, she may have – who knows, lol.

            I know you’ll take tender care of your daughter, and I hope she is feeling 100% chipper again really soon.🤗 I hope you’re also taking care of yourself, in-between…may you get your restorative sleep, like tonight would be so good❣
            Big hug,

          22. Thank you Sweet Caroline,

            I did get the bug towards the weekend. My son got it too. I want us to get flu shots next year because it has been the third time that we have been sick since Thanksgiving. We did get the flu bug last Thanksgiving week.

            I was in preschool when the People Power happened and it made a big impact on me. Seeing so many people on the streets passionately shouting either Cory or Marcos. There was an election between them prior to the revolt and after the assassination and everyone thought that Cory would win but she lost because he cheated so the revolution happened. That is probably why I am naturally interested in politics. Those images of people holding the rosary and handing out roses to the military who were aiming their guns on them were pretty powerful for me. There was no blood shed unlike many other revolutions. They said that the reason was because Reagan has sent people to negotiate with Marcos because he didn’t want any bloodshed. Reagan didn’t want a chaotic and violent revolution because there was US military presence there and they just didn’t want to get caught up in that situation. Marcos used it as a leverage and promised that he will order troops to hold their fires if Reagan will let his family get out safely. The Marcoses got out safely and moved to Hawaii and they lived comfortably there until Marcos died. That’s one of the reasons I think he was a Greater because he was able to control his fury and negotiate his way out.

          23. MP,
            I’m so sorry you and your son also got sick😥 On the positive side, think how much more you will again appreciate WELLNESS, righto? Funny how that works. It’s similar to a narcissistic entanglement — once you aren’t stuck in it, the flipside is “oh-what-a-feeling”🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️ <way too many Carolines!

            I thought of you today. ❤One of my friends is totally into the zodiacs, and she is always pointing out how all of us (in the friends group) are similar to our zodiacs, but she's always been downright dogmatic about mine..I'm a "Cusper" — on the cusp between two zodiacs (supposedly makes me have traits of both of them – I'm not really into or against zodiacs – I figure God can arrange the world any way he wants!). I have to admit, coincidence or not, it's a little freaky how mine sounds just like me. Anyway, today at lunch, while one of my other friends was saying something about how serious/deep the conversation was that she had with me last night, I did something really free-spirited/child-like and then my zodiac friend said: SEE? That's it, right there! Our Cusper Caroline! She could be in an elegant gown at a fancy dinner, serious & sophisticated – in deep, intellectual conversations all night…then four hours later, be out in the parking lot dripping wet, laughing and having a snowball fight with a bunch of kids. It made me think of you immediately, because of how you described me, which I found sweetly touching. (Um, about that gown…did I ruin it? What style and color was it??😂)

            Anyhow, It got progressively more insane at lunch, where I ended up almost cry-laughing, because everything I said or did, my zodiac friend was shouting out which side of the zodiac it was coming from…she is just crazy funny. I needed it though, as I have been doing very well, but every time I leave or return from my house, I look to see if my nex is there. It's the price I pay for being fully me, but it does add a wee bit of a stress layer. I don't realize it until I find my eyes filling up with tears for no reason, every once in awhile…and I know why. It's because of the uncertainty of what he's doing – it's a little emotionally draining, somewhere inside me. Anyway, he should be gone for a few more months now, so maybe I can stop my hyper-vigilance.

            On a lighter note, I loved all your political reflections. I've got a deep interest in politics too, and I love to analyze the crap out of all things political! I try not to do so out loud much these days, as people can seriously get triggered (like hair on fire 🔥!)…and I'm all about the peace, man….love & peace, man. Lol

            Before I forget…another good movie for us to empath/narc analyze is "The Invisible Woman."😎 Did we finish with analyzing the other one? I need to check my folder of saved posts to see.

            So glad you & your family are feeling better❣

          24. Thank you Sweet Caroline! Yes we totally appreciate wellness more lol. And we will get our flu shots from now on haha.

            I’m happy that what I wrote about you touched you. They are all true. Yes I totally see what she was saying. I don’t find your different traits to be a dichotomy. I think that they all interplay and complement each other. I think that you have a natural balance and harmony that I don’t see any of your traits clash even though some can be contradictory in essence.

            I also enjoy astrology but I don’t believe that it predicts the future. I do think though that there is some truth to the description of the person’s traits and personality based on the zodiac signs but it is far from perfect. My zodiac sign description fits me well and I have observed the same with a lot of people that I know. But I don’t rely on it except for entertainment. I’m a Capricorn and my husband is an Aquarius and we’re supposed to be incompatible but actually we get along well. I personally think there is some merit to astrology because they say that God is a God of order. So I think that there is some merit when we see patterns. And I agree that He can suspend that order or pattern whenever He wants to. I just don’t think that even if there is a pattern in astrology that humans have perfectly figured out how to understand it.

            I’m sorry that your nex is causing you stress. It sucks that he can’t allow you to move on. You deserve to have the freedom to be completely you without having to have someone that is not part of your life anymore still be a part of your thoughts because of his stalking. If you wound him while he is stalking you do you think that he will eventually stop? Like has he seen you with your boyfriend? That would probably wound him. I know when I wounded my sister enough she ended up disowning me forever. Even when she was sick and I asked her if she wants me to help her she didn’t even reply. Maybe you can stage stuff that when he decides to visit you he will see you happy with your boyfriend and then you can casually look on his direction but have no reaction in your face like you didn’t recognize him and then look at your boyfriend with the happiest smile again? It’s probably silly but I’m trying to come up with ideas how to shoo the nex away from bugging you.

            I will try to find the Invisible Woman. I haven’t seen that movie yet. I think that we’re pretty much done with the last movie.

            On a lighter note and slightly related to astrology, Chinese astrology to be more specific, I’m so excited for the Chinese New Year. I have a lot prepared for the kids to do so I really hope that they don’t get sick lol. I will be teaching them about world geography this year and we started with the polar ends of the earth. On Chinese NY I will teach them basics about China. We will be making paper dragon puppets and paper lanterns. I also ordered some Chinese lucky coins and yuan baos from amazon to use for our sensory play and math activities. I got the cheapest globe they sell on Amazon to point out the places we talk about. Right now we are studying the Arctic and the animals that live there. My son already knows which ones live in the North Pole vs the South Pole. I had to lie a little bit to keep them very interested by telling them that both Santa and Kristoff and his reindeer Sven live in the Arctic. They totally believed me especially with how serious I was when I told them about it. It’s so fun to see them so interested with Geography. I remember when my younger stepdaughter was in high school she taught that Africa is a country. She didn’t like me when I corrected her even though I did it nicely. Challenge fuel I guess. 😬

          25. MP,
            Thanks so much for your message❤ I’m looking forward to replying back on it. I’m heading to work early, but I was cleaning out a section of my closet last night, and I came upon an old journal. I wrote this poem in it, sometime after I left my nex (can’t recall how long after, but I do remember writing it). I found it interesting to re-read it, as I think it shows an intuitive knowing, without having full knowledge, of what I was dealing with…kind of freaky.😳

            Here it is:


            Walking through the woods – twigs snapping, leaves crackling – I come upon an old, country church…
            paint peeling, wood chipping – it’s hiding something.
            The fragile porch boards creak my arrival,
            Beckoning me inside…
            Slowly turning the oversized, rusty doorknob, I push the heavy door open,
            Transporting myself into another world
            Of comfort, and peace.
            Light streams through the dusty, old windows, onto a dozen wooden pews…
            And I see him.
            A boy sits, so still, his back to me, in the front pew.
            He fled, years ago,
            to this sacred place…
            I can feel his sweetness, his energy, his fire – as his legs ran deeper and deeper into the woods…up to the church, inside, then pushing the door shut – hard.
            Safely inside, he pressed his body against the door.
            He stirs now, in his spot.
            He knows I’m here.
            But who am I, to him?
            And who is he, for me?
            He senses warmth and light has entered in – and folds himself over, gripping his hands under the bottom of the pew.
            I can feel it.
            He won’t let go.
            He has his secrets…he has his way.
            And I’m a secret keeper – granted abundant grace, for the knowing.
            Is he the other side of my coin?
            We’re at a Crossroads…in this sacred church.
            “Stay!” says his heart.
            “Leave!” says his frightened mind.
            What says the soul?
            He’ll remain in the front, if I stay far back.
            But I’m a protector of those in sanctuary – and a free spirit,
            So I quietly back my way to the door, watching him tenderly as I retreat.
            I take something off me and gently lay it down on the well-worn, wooden floor.
            He’ll find it…if he ever leaves this sacred place.

            I’m alone again, making my way out of the woods – sun streaming, bright and full, through the treetops – when an abrupt rush of wild wind flaps over me. It feels like peace that passes understanding.

            The angels have always been here,
            With me.
            The angels have always been there,
            For him…in that sacred place.

          26. That’s really beautiful Caroline is Fine. ❤️

            I think that you did have a strong sense of what he is and what was going on. We all wish that we could save that innocent person from building a prison for themselves. But that prison has also been their very sanctuary. It was a great image of the church which for many is usually a symbol of salvation and for others a symbol of restrain or lack of freedom. What is it really? What is narcissism? To them it is their salvation from the horrible injustice that they were forced to deal with and their only way of surviving. To many who love them like you did when you loved him and like I did with my mom, it felt like a prison in which I wished I could convince her that she can come out with me.

          27. Thank you, dear MP❤ I know you understand that difficult feeling. We really are helpless to help them! It’s the worst feeling. No matter what, we always count on that human connection — like we *can* get through to someone — we just have to find the right words or keep trying. I know back then, I was so confused at to why everything had to be so emotionally wrenching/hard/impossible (yet it never occurred to me, in a real concrete way, that he was actually making it hard – how odd)…and my experience as a girlfriend was for a relatively limited time, whereas yours was for the entire lifetime of your Mom. My heart goes out to you. I imagine you still deal with a lot of mixed feelings. Do you still go through the stages of grief, in-and-out? Grief is not a linear process with non-narcissists, so I imagine it is even more complicated with narcissists. You handled it all as well as could be, and with real dignity. It was brave, how you faced it all. Big hug to you.❤

          28. Thank you so much Caroline ❤️. I honestly don’t know if my kind of grief is anything that most people can relate to. I know that my feelings when she died were a combination of relief that her suffering is over and she is finally at peace and sorrow that we didn’t have a full relationship that I wished we had nor see her have a happy life. I have tried to connect with her countless times in my life in different ways. Some of it were rejected outright while some produced temporary results. There were times in my younger years that I had a great relationship with her and it felt that I have her as the person who will always be there for me in my life but in all of those times I had to change who I am for that bond or great relationship to occur. Even my hugs to her had to be in a submissive body language and it was like hugging a post because she just allowed me to hug her but she never hugged back. It is difficult to lose a mother especially if you are a daughter even if that mother was a narcissist. I don’t care what people say about me but that is the truth. It was also very difficult for a daughter to have the kind of relationship with a mother that I had. But I feel so blessed that God gave me what He knew I needed the most and that is to have my two kids and be the mother to them that I have always wanted to have. And thankfully I was blessed to experience from them the love that I had for my mom as her child. I finally received it back. ❤️

          29. MP,

            You: “It is difficult to lose a mother especially if you are a daughter even if that mother was a narcissist. I don’t care what people say about me but that is the truth . It was also very difficult for a daughter to have the kind of relationship with a mother that I had.”

            Absolutely it would be difficult! YOUR feelings of love were a connected, real love. In other words, unconditional. So having a narcissist for a Mom doesn’t lessen any of the pain of loss, as you poured love into a bond on your end…I would think, if anything, it would add a whole other layer of pain to it. She was your Mom, no matter what her issues were, big or small. It is not hard to understand at all…all I have to do is think of my nex dying, and I am right there with you, in understanding the complicated grief. We loved…therefore, the love involved is real. What was given back is a side issue, but there were some concrete (neutral or positive) things that were given, no matter what the reason was on the narcissist’s end. There was lack of the narcissist meeting our emotional needs, and there was damage done…but does that change our real love? No.

            To say it doesn’t/shouldn’t matter so much — to diminish the pain of it — is to negate the Empath.

            I am always here for you, to talk out anything you ever need.💕

          30. MP🌼
            I feel the same, about the zodiac. There is no way I’d plan my day/life by horoscopes…can you imagine how that would work with a stalking narcissist in the midst?😮 But it can be fun/entertaining. I like the traits of Capricorn. ❤My oldest brother is one, and we get along like two peas in a pod (Weirdly, we have never had an argument about anything, ever)…and guess what? One of my “cusps” is supposed to get along very well with Capricorns, especially in friendship – like easy, great friends. Even though I giggle at my zodiac friend and don’t put serious stock in it, it *is* a little ironic that a lot of it lines up, for me/those I know well. Oh, wait just a sec…I gotta go check my horoscope, to see if it’s a good day for taking a bike ride in an hour – be right back!…<one of my zodiacs makes me silly – it's not my fault!😭

            Ok, to be serious now, about my stalker (while we're at it, he's a Leo, lol)…You make a good case for wounding, but I've actually been in protective mode regarding my BF (no, my nex hasn't seen him), as in trying to make sure never the two shall meet! Have I mentioned my nex can have a fiery temper? He can. Typical Leo the Lion! (JK – any Leos reading this😉). It's not a fly-off-the-handle, brutal, regular kind of thing (temper)…but there is an element to him, in that way, that makes me nervous. I'm thinking back, of how he was about totally benign things (males in my midst) when I was in the FR…and the problem with whatever he's doing now is I really cannot get a sense for what the point of it really is…as in, is this benign (win me back/will fade with time, with me not reacting) – or could this get real ugly? He *does* have a significant problem with jealousy, and he can plot in that way, believe me…so (depending on the situation), he could hit another male, no question.😬 I mean, some males, you can't see that aspect happening…him, yes – he has/could.

            For now, my gut tells me to try to minimize any chance of him seeing me/anything too personal about my life. TBH, just him seeing ME, my yard & house makes me feel like he knows too much already. I've actually started thinking about my mail, like would he take stuff or mess with it? I really do not know. I don't understand his frame of mind at this particular time…well, or ever, let's be real.

            For now, the feeling I got off him (when he stopped and stared at me) was more of a soft vibe (not that that's good either/no winning here) — but who really knows? Anyway, he's not done anything aggressive or intrusive (unless you count staring) thus far. It's the not knowing what this is (goal)…so it's keeping me inside more now…or thinking about when I go outside.

          31. Hi Sweet Caroline,

            I think that even though it seems like it isn’t serious because he hasn’t done anything violent or malignant to you, it still needs to be addressEd because you don’t have peace of mind. There is an issue if he is causing you to stay more indoors and if you are worried that your mail may not be safe.

            I wonder which parts of your fears are really plausible and which parts are emotional thinking caused by his cryptic appearance to you. I will probably sound like a narc but I understand mind games like that, like what he did to you. I saw my mom did similar stuff like that and I as a young kid have done similar things (because I was learning from my mom and was curious about how it would make people behave). It’s almost like pulling pranks on people. Thankfully I have outgrown that and it is now beneath me to behave like that. I actually think that after having kids I am now at my lowest level of narcissism because now it’s all about them for me. But him staring at you like that may not really mean anything except to find out how it is going to make you react. This is embarrassing to admit but one of my bonding moments with my mom when I was a kid was that she tells me or even makes me watch when she did mind games like that to people and then we laughed at how the other person reacted. Of course these people were smeared to me so at that time I had low empathy for them. But that’s how narcissists are, they want you to keep thinking about them. If you are driving a car and a narcissist you know happens to be walking on the pedestrian side of the road and sees you, he would be giving your car a long glance hoping that you notice him. He’s not thinking oh there’s Caroline, I really like her. He’s thinking in an abstract way I will give her a long glance and hopefully she notices me and wonders if I care about her and also notices the way I walk and that I lost weight etc. It’s all about them. That’s probably why it was easy for me to wound my sister so many times because some of the things she did reminded me of how my mom’s mind worked and so it was an automatic reaction for me to not reward her behaviors by simply not giving her attention or any thought and so my non reactions were totally natural and authentic and she was able to tell. I was not even pretending or acting. I just genuinely lost interest for her for being a very manipulative shallow person.

            I just think that there is no reason why you would have to alter your life because of him. You shouldn’t have to worry about protecting your boyfriend and preventing your nex from seeing him. You shouldn’t worry about your mail or altering the amount of you going outdoors. Maybe you should consult with HG on what he thinks your nex will do so that you can feel more assured? I am not sure but sometimes our empathy makes it hard for us to show them that we really have moved on and they don’t matter to us anymore because we don’t want to hurt them. But as long as we are giving them hints or crumbs that they matter to us, no matter how small, they will take it and hang around and wait to get more crumbs and maybe if they wait long enough they could get the whole bread. Birds (narcs) will leave if you stop giving them crumbs. And crumbs can be your facial expression or even him seeing you change your schedule or way of life after his mind game. I also respectfully suggest that you tell your boyfriend about your nex and your fears and even you protecting him from the narc when you are ready. I think that this will lower your ET and you will feel more secure that you are not alone. When my ET was high and I was even wondering if the handyman could have been a psychopath who could hurt my husband or abduct my kids I fessed up to my husband that the handyman tried to seduce me. It has alleviated a lot of the burden that I was carrying inside and a lot of my fears have started to dissipate.

          32. MP❤,
            Thank you for your insight & wise words…I’m headed out for a work-related project today, but I’m going to re-read your post again tonight & reflect more on it. I appreciate you speaking significant truths on your experience with family members, as well as the sensitive way you addressed me on this. I think you’re exactly right on my peace being unnecessarily diminished, which is why I think I explained all this to you, because I was starting to feel this was getting too inwardly pressured for me, which I had not previously been feeling…

            Peace comes from within – but when outer circumstances begin to threaten it, then a new approach (or going back to old approach) is needed. My BF does know about my nex, but he doesn’t fully understand, which is because I haven’t conveyed all. It’s not for lack of trust per se with him, but I take a long time to fully open up…and I also know there is one thing that he could ask me about/delve into about my nex (the answer) that will make him freaking upset, understandably so. I am also always wanting to handle everything by myself, but it’s not a good way to handle an issue that can affect me (or can potentially affect others)…though my recent anxious thoughts — strictly because my nex showed up — may be unwarranted. I’m going to let my BF in on a little more with this, because if I am feeling I need to “protect” him from this nuttiness, then it’s really not a reasonable plan or healthy mindset at all!

            Thank you, for all your good advice, and I’m encouraged to go back where I started out with this, when I was at peace. If the principles I’ve learned here aren’t enough and/or I can’t maintain my peace or live it fully, then HG is there. Or, um, here. Or he’s somewhere.😉

            I’m left with the thought that if the “simple” starts to become “complicated,” then my strong sense of logic is being tainted. Isn’t there an 80s “Tainted Love” song?🤔

          33. Hello Sweet Caroline, I have reread your older comment and I kind of remember now what I wrote.

            Regarding the martyr cadre, HG has told me that it is in the Chained book. I asked him if the martyr cadre is the same as a codependent and he said no. I don’t have a codependent in my schools. I asked him if the martyr cadre is the same as having victim or martyr complex which is basically having victim mentality and he said no.

            I have given it a lot of thought and my guess is that a martyr just like codependents put others above themselves but the reason for doing so is different. Codependents put others before themselves because it helps define them. Martyr cadre puts others before themselves because they believe that it is the right thing or magnanimous thing to do. I believe that I have seen some commenters here reveal that they have martyr in their cadres but I don’t think all of them do. I think that empaths help others and love doing so but the martyr cadre would be the kind of empath who would pay for their siblings to go to college with their hard earned money even though they themselves didn’t go to college but they are just happy at the thought that their siblings will have a bright future and they as a family will be elevated. I have cousins in my home country who are like that. And when they do that, they don’t expect anything from their sibling except for their sibling to do well and work hard in school. These cousins of mine are not codependents and are actually very independent and assertive in a way that their siblings respect them and they are role models for their siblings in many ways. My martyr is only very small so I have never been like my cousins but it does manifest on occasions and when it does the act of sacrifice gives me a high satisfaction unless it was for a narcissist and I realize that I was just taken advantage of. That is my guess regarding the martyr. I hope that I am at least close. I would love to read more about it from HG.

            Boldwood is indeed an interesting character. It was also hard for me to see him as a narcissist because I didn’t recognize malice or contempt but I recognized too much need for control. He was very distinguished, highly revered and strong at first then he kind of got muted down like you said into such a pitiful character. He spiraled down after he was rejected. It was mentioned that he was jilted by a woman years ago and then he never got married. I was wondering if the rejection by Batsheba was a trigger that brought him back to that trauma. I have occasions in my life where an event brings me back emotionally to a past trauma and I spiral into negative thinking and self loathing. But it only lasts for a day or maybe two. I don’t get into an obsession but most importantly I don’t try to control people. From what I have learned from HG where narcissists need control so much, need for control has become a huge red flag of narcissism for me. And we all want to be in control at times whether it’s wanting to have the last word or to correct an inaccurate smearing about you but to actually ‘proactively’ control people who do not provoke is a big red flag for me. Him showing Gabriel the ring that he will give Batsheba was very controlling in my perspective and the way he convinced her in a pushy way to think about his proposal. When he told Gabriel after the wedding night that Batsheba didn’t lie to him etc., it felt like a pity play and trying to look like a martyr because first of all there was no need for him to tell Gabriel that because Gabriel didn’t tell him that he thinks Batsheba lies to him. I keep trying to put myself in Boldwood’s shoes and I can’t think of a way for it to feel authentic to all of a sudden bring it up out of the blue except to put on a show.

            I think I can see what you are saying about your NEx. But HG brought you a good point that Boldwood’s cadre which seems to be a Victim and being a Medium MR have something to do with the way he acts versus an upper echelon narc who usually acts more like a bad ass or more self assured.

          34. Thanks HG. I have never heard of OLD before and it just came up from the searches I made regarding Boldwood’s weird obsession. A lot of the symptoms for OLD are also symptoms for narcissism so there is a big overlap. OLD might very well be a misdiagnosis of what is actually narcissism. I have read that there is no official medical or psychological classification for OLD.

            Caroline is Merry, I am enjoying the Christmas spirit between you and HG lol. I will have to rethink about Boldwood again. I might go back to my original guess that he is a narcissist and look at it in a Victim MMR point of view. I initially pegged him as an Upper MR Cerebral because he seemed wealthy and well respected in their community. But his expression when he was telling Batsheba that it’s ok if she has no passion or desire for him did look like a pity play. I will think about it and write again before next year. Love to you and enjoy the holidays!! 😘😘

          35. MP,
            Victim makes sense to me, and he sucked Glorious Gabriel in…he got Gabriel to pity him. Gabriel protected & also deferred to him a lot — even Gabriel’s very heart’s desire…kind, hardworking, calm-and-cool (yet hot!) Gabriel. That irritates me🤨…he MUST be a Victim MMR, lol

            More later…2020: Coming Soon!❤🤍💚

          36. Mommy Pino: Hardy doesn’t think much of the passionless marriage considered suitable by many Victorians. Look at Sue in Jude the Obscure. On the other hand, Arabella in the same book is an example of what happens when there is nothing beside passion.

          37. Thanks for that info Violetta. I have never read any of his work but it sounds like he may be a good writer. He does have interesting characters in his story.
            Good point on passionless marriages not being very weird in the olden days. I was somewhat surprised when Gabriel the sheep farmer asked for her hand in marriage when they didn’t even seem to be in a formal relationship together. However his reactions after she rejected him was a respectful reaction so I just thought that it was just how they did it in those days. Boldwood’s reaction after the rejection is a much different story.

          38. MommyPino: I remember Imelda. 3,000 pairs of shoes and 300 bras. She claimed the shoes were the accumulation of 20 years, but that’s still around a pair every 3 days. I understand Retail Therapy and its subset, Shoe Therapy, but every 3 days for 20 years? Damn, girl!

          39. Haha I’m sure that it was more than that Violetta. Imelda is the stereotypical narcissist. I believe she is a Middle Mid-Range Elite. Aside from all of those shoes and bras, she had crowns studded with gem stones and diamonds and some even custom made by Cartier that were sequestered from her when she tried to smuggle them out after they were ousted, she has paintings of Monet, Van Gogh, Raphael, Picasso, Michelangelo and even a long missing Goya painting. She has a rare pink diamond which costs several million dollars and all kinds of gold bars deposited in a Swiss bank. They hold the Guinness World Record for stealing the most wealth from a country. Her husband was so amazingly brutal. A lot of people mysteriously went missing and never found after they opposed him. But he didn’t go to jail for all of that. I have heard from some accounts that he died a very slow and painful death though.

    2. Although the topic is serious I cannot suppress the thought that the titles evoke images of the old game D&D Thanks for the laugh regarding the titles.

  4. My ex narc actually introduced me to a few series that had narcs in them including “lucifer” and the dad in “shameless”.

  5. Anne Brontë’s “The Tenant of Wildfell Hall”

    Helen successfully escapes her alcoholic husband and takes her son with her. Then she receives the news that he is ill and goes back to him to take care of him. The misery begins, not only for her but also for her son. I think her husband is not only an alcoholic but also a narcissist.

    There is a BBC adaptation – 1996 miniseries.
    Tara Fitzgerald as Helen Graham
    Toby Stephens as Gilbert Markham
    Rupert Graves as Arthur, Helen’s alcoholic husband

  6. I’m going to go high brow and suggest Daniel Cleaver in Bridgit Jones Diary. The lies spill from him and the superiority and lack of accountability ooze from every pore. Even the back story of his affair with friends wife fits nicely. Evidence of difficulty with boundaries, vacuous and lacking in own personality. MMR (elite or somatic) seems most likely as he is passive aggressive, evidence of hoovers throughout. Bridget is a DLS or maybe a shelf IPSS, what kind of empath though?

    1. Targeting, seduction and golden period are in evidence. He shows absolute need for control and uses what she has said and done to please him, against her. He shows zero empathy although obviously believes himself to be a ‘decent chap’. He re-writes history, blame shifts and triangulates – other woman knows about her.
      Bridget has cold and critical mother but then she falls for the shopping channel muppet so maybe I’m misinterpretting this.
      Is Mark Darcy an N too though?

  7. HG, I was wondering if Jennifer Lopez is one of your kind?
    She portrayed brilliantly Ramona in Hustlers and I think Ramona is a Somatic Upper Lesser.

      1. Thanks a lot for the confirmation, HG! Happy New Year!
        Apologies for the delayed reply.
        It is a shame that JLo is portrayed as a typical Leo woman in all fashion magazines.
        Not all of us are narcissists.

  8. So many since they make such compelling characters and are typically at the centre of plenty of drama.
    A few favorites..
    Matt Damon in The Talented Mr Ripley
    Christian Bale in American Psycho
    Jack Gleeson (Joffrey Baratheon), Lena Heady (Cersei Lannister) and Iwan Rheon (Ramsey Bolton) in Game of Thrones

  9. James Spader’s played a number of narcs: the drug dealer/pimp on Less Than Zero, the boss in Secretary, but one of his creepiest is Steff in Pretty in Pink. The character could be just a spoiled, preppy asswipe, and was probably written that way, but that’s not how he plays it. At one point, Molly Ringwald’s character (whom Staff has been unsuccessfully pursuing for years) and Steff’s best friend walk in on Staff and his rich bitch girlfriend in bed. A lesser actor would have either been embarrassed to be caught with his pants off, furious with the best friend for getting the girl he couldn’t, or smirking triumphantly at at Ringwald because he’s with a hot blonde and she’s a quirky little redhead from the wrong side of town and SO THERE, Byotch.

    What Spader does is incredible. His face goes blank for a second, there’s a stare I can’t even describe, and then he’s suddenly almost satirically the good host: offering Ringwald and the best friend the bed if they need it next.

    There was something so intense in that scene for a teen movie I’ve always wondered what was going on. Now it’s clear. For one second we see the narcissistic wounding, then a nanosecond of narcissistic rage, then he covers it over and the manipulations begin.

    Some reviewers wondered why there was so much fuss over Molly Ringwald, who was cute and spirited, but seemed hardly the stuff of obsession, but even that makes sense now. Compared to the shallow rich bitches he knows, she’s chock full of fuel.

    This site….

    1. I would have swallowed his soul though. What can I say. I loved Spader back then. My narc looks like him at that time so my hope is his hair has a similar destiny.

        1. But I would have abandoned my life for his character in Stargate: absentminded intellectual, expert translator of Egyptian hieroglyphs. I mean, take me! I know I know, I’m a nerd.

          1. I ended up watching Stargate again Violetta. It’s your fault 😜 I almost lost it when his character finds out the missing sign was the determinative in Egyptian rebus. I think my whole life I have been dreaming of a guy like James Spader in this movie, and that’s why I got ensnared. Fuck Hollywood!

          2. The Beeb’s just as bad. How many women have dreamed of the one-and-only Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy, when Jane Austen herself never married? Of course she gave her witty Elizabeth a happy ending, but the families of her own suitors valued a large dowry, not wit, and that killed off at least one relationship. Another died when Austen realized her fiance wanted her to be just clever enough to appreciate his cleverness, and broke the engagement herself.

            Let us at least give her credit that her hero turns out to be the initially pompous Darcy, rather than dashing, socially-skilled Wickham. Wickham triangulates the entire town against Darcy, gives a distorted version of how he came to lose the Darcy family’s favor; even after marriage, he’s trying to triangulate Elizabeth against his wife, her own sister Lydia. No matter how many chances he’s given, his irresponsible behavior makes a hash of every one. He’s a Narc sociopath if there ever was one. Probably not a very high-functioning one, since it always eventually blows up in his face.

  10. Not a film but I have been watching the series Atypical. I really like it EXCEPT FOR ELSA. She makes my skin crawl and I almost cannot watch because of her. I think Elsa is a narc but I don’t know if it’s the character I want to slap upside her stupid head or the actress Jennifer Jason Leigh. Anyone have thoughts about it?

  11. I think Jude Law must enjoy playing narc types. I thought he was scarily accurate in the film Wilde, playing Alfred ‘Bosie’ Douglas to Stephen Frye’s Oscar Wilde. I literally jumped to my feet when Bosie had his tantrum (one of many) because Oscar didn’t want to spend any more money in him, and when he refused to help when Oscar was terribly sick even tho Wilde had nursed him through a terrible illness. The list goes on. The guy was HG textbook narcissist.

          1. Desiree: Brilliant! I guess that 100 bucks is shot, wot? According to HG during my phone consultation when we discussed it (I wanted his opinion since no one else in MY opinion would know) it was pointed out to me that while Oscar had definite traits, likely Bosie was the true narc.
            Perhaps instead of consulting I’ll just read the blog and your updates, if I’ve missed a salient point. Cheaper.

  12. Little finger from game of thrones:
    1_ Extensive use of manipulation :convinced Lysa Arryne to kill her husbande John Arryne in order to create the right circomstances to bring Ned Stark to port real, what makes killing him easier, and separating him from Catlyne.
    blamed the murder of king Joffrey on Sansa, allowing him to use her to get rid of Lysa Arryn and seize the Vall, with the benefit of looking like a savior for Sansa, because he needs her for his futures planes.
    deliivered Olyvar and the faith militant causing the emprisonement of knight Lauras and queen Margaery, what in the end caused the anihilation of the Tyrell house, one of the strongest houses in the got univers.
    tried to make Aria and Sansa fight against eachother, and manny others….. (although manipulation is almost the norm in the univers of got, most other caracters do it for the sake of their houses, their nation, a bigger ideal, or simply to protect loved ones, Little finger does it only for his own benefits).

    2_Lack of remorse, ampathy and accountability: he didn’t hesistate selling Sansa to Ramsey Bolton, while knowing exactly what kind of man he is, caused the death of numerous people and doesn’t display any regret remorse or shame, his main focus remains only on how he could use the suffering and the distress around him to further his agenda, he didn’t hesitate to manipulate petter Aryn who is only a child, he gains money by using women, always making other pay for his crimes.

    3_Sense of entitlement and lack of boundary recongnition: even after losing to Ned stark, and knowing that Catelyne doesn’t love him and she is already a maried woman with children, he still tries to seduce her.
    he didn’t care that Sansa was just a child and in a position of weakness, he still tried to take advantage of that and seduce her.

    4_Grandiosity: being alone, with no army, no teritory, he strongly believes that he is the only one who deserves to sit on the throne, and that he will do so.
    plus the history of Little finger shows that he was in the right sircomstances to develop Narcissism.

    1. sorry i forgot to tell which school i think the charater is from.
      so, Little finger displayed a verry hight level of inteligence, a great capacity to plot and anticipate people’s actions and reactions in different settings, a total control over himself, he also displayed malice, charme and charisma.
      the show never gave us an insight on his inner life, so i can’t tell what level of awarness he has regarding his condition, but the above mentioned elements lead me to think that he is a greater narcissist.

        1. After reading HG’s Revenge book, I did a couple of things via 3rd parties (who didn’t personally know me) so he didn’t know who to accuse. I found out he had a few women on the go and he actually accused the one he was lining up to be his next IPPS!

          1. BonnieLou

            “After reading HG’s Revenge book, I did a couple of things via 3rd parties (who didn’t personally know me) so he didn’t know who to accuse. I found out he had a few women on the go and he actually accused the one he was lining up to be his next IPPS!”

            Impressive! Well done!!

            I can not tell the revenge in this film without spoiling the plot. But it was ‘shadenfraude’ at high level, and actively produced by the victim, so well done for her as well!

            And Emmannuele Seigner is also bonus in this film (hmm!). Peter Coyote is perfect casted for this very cinical role.
            I have a big dislike of Roman Polanski because of his raping history. I will not make any excuse for that and yes he should be spending time in prison.
            However he made almost a masterpiece with this film, the film has many layers, it goes very deep, and the visuals are stunning (although the entire movie is on a boat but this makes the experience also very close on your skin).

            The very last shot of the film is the Master narcissist at work, sublime!

  13. Phantom of the Opera! The film version with Gerard Butler as the Phantom is excellent. The neglected, abused child (the mask is a metaphor) …His sense of entitlement (demanding a salary from the Opera company), grandiousity (demanding his opera, ‘Don Juan’ be performed), ensnarement of gave me massive triggers and I couldn’t sleep for a week!
    The rage when Christine rips his “mask” off and her final words to him when he demands she choose between him and Raul, before she leaves with Raul for good: “Pitiful Creature of Darkness, what kind of life have you known? God give me courage to show you, you’re not alone.” As Phantom had just demanded: “Make your choice! You are trying my patience!”
    But going back to a previous comment Edward Cullen!!! Aaaaw team Edward!! 🥰 at least he was faithful to Bella though.

    1. Not a patch on the original cast recording with Michael Crawford. Listen from beginning to end.

      The only ones in the movie who really understood what they were doing were the Opera managers and of course Minnie Driver.

      1. I was too young when the original came out and couldn’t stand Sarah Brightman either. I thought Emy Rossum was brilliant as Christine in the film, but yes, I remember Michael Crawford did have an amazing voice, slightly better than Gerard Butler 😂😂

        1. Crawford was the perfect blend of seductive and psychotic.
          They tried too hard to make Butler “romantic.” The character has to be BOTH.

          My vocal coach wasn’t terribly impressed with Rossum, but she was easily better than Brightman, known to the original cast and crew as “Sarah the Stick” for her deciduous acting.

          The Phantom carries that show. There was a great Raoul when we saw it on B’way, but the Phantom and Christine were merely adequate.

    2. BonnieLou
      Team Edward!? Haha I think I get it but partly because of lack of options. I remember a friend of mine was a huge Twilight-fan and dragged her boyfriend to the first move. He was a normal and called it what it was: “If Edward wasn’t a vampire, he would just be kind of an abuser.”

      1. Yes, when Twilight first came out it was either Team Edward or Team Jake depending on who you wanted Bella to end up with (or who you secretly fancied yourself!😂😂) Your friends BF was right as Edward was very controlling of Bella.

        1. BonnieLou
          Was there not a scene where he creeps through her window to watch her sleep and when she asks how long he’s been doing that for he says only a few – months – ? And then he followed her with his car and said he feels protective of her.
          But at least he could read and write and probably had interesting first hand experience of significant historic events, being immortal and such. Probably fought in both World Wars and everything.

          Jake did not go to school because he would burst out of his shirt, yes? Are we sure that he was not a narcissist as well or do we not accuse him because we pity him a little bit?

        2. BL, excuse the correction but it was team Jacob. I was team Jacob as is clear in my choice of narcs, abs over glitter haha.

          1. Yes, I realised that this morning please forgive my mistake😘. So long since I last watched Twilight.

          2. Bonnie Lou
            Jakob, then, no doubt they’re both narcissits. I’d rather speak with Edward because he experienced interesting historic events first hand. “Tell me about The Great Depression” is my kind of pillow talk.

          3. And as I quickly found out with my stunningly beautiful Narc Egyptian..All that glitters is not Gold 😉

        3. BonnieLou
          True, I have a bodylotion that does the exact same thing. Of course you and I actually ARE golden. Those hearts of gold weigh heavy yet we carry them with pride.

  14. It’s actually one of my favorite movies, “It’s Complicated” with Meryl Streep and Alec Baldwin and Steve Martin. Alec Baldwin is the narcissist in this one. He is the cheating remarried ex-husband that hoovers his ex wife, Meryl Streep. I still enjoy the movie, but I find myself analyzing it every time I watch it. I actually I do that with all movies now that I’m am educated, thanks HG! I will never watch movies in the same way.

    1. GA, I adore that movie. I must have seen it 5-7 times. As a love-devotee, I love movies about older people falling in love but this one is particularly comical and both actors are phenomenal in it.

  15. Jude Law’s Alfie in 2004 Alfie movie. Finding it hard to settle down and commit himself to only one woman, the unrepentant philanderer and undeniable ladies’ man, Alfie, is a charming British bachelor who cruises the streets of New York as a limousine chauffeur. In his impeccable suits, the silver-tongued Casanova is simply irresistible; however, things will take a turn for the unexpected, when a night of unrestrained passion seriously tests Alfie’s frivolous approach to life. In the end, is Alfie happy, and, above all, what’s it all about, then?

    I actually enjoyed the end of the movie when he finds himself alone and says “What have I got? Really? Some money in my pocket. Some nice threads, fancy car at my disposal, and I’m single. Yeah… unattached, free as a bird… I don’t depend on nobody. Nobody depends on me. My life’s my own. But I don’t have peace of mind. And if you don’t have that, you’ve got nothing. So… So what’s the answer? That’s what I keep asking myself. What’s it all about? You know what I mean?”

    I like to think that this is what a narc ends thinking after a life of hurting and pain,

    1. I hate Jude Law in that movie. Also, she was dating Sienna Miller (one of the characters in the movie) at that time and he cheated on her. Guess he took “the method” too seriously.

        1. I haven’t. I despised the character so much that I didn’t want to see any other version of the film to be honest.

          1. At one point, he describes one girlfriend as “it”: something like “When it was upset, it would make a pie.”

          2. Mmm. HG’s Intertextual references never stop to impress me, I missed this one. In the context HG used it, though, it was justifiable and even just.

    2. Alice,
      i never watched that movie, but from the abstract you made, i think that this person is not a narcissist, he is obviously introspective and he questions his choices, his achievements and he ownes responsability for the situation he found himself in , if i understood correctly what a narcissist is, i think it is verry unlikely of a narcissist to act in this manner.
      a lesser wouldn’t even take the time to think of his or her situation, a mid ranger would say it in a more pitifull way and he or she will make sure to blame someone or something for this unfavorable state of affaire, and a greater will make sure to never finde him or herself in such a situation and given their level of awarness they know that they don’t do happy, so it won’t bother them as long as the achievements are here, and they will be here, so evrything would be deemed fine.

        1. lisk, i think he is more narcissistic than a narcissist, but i say this only based on Alice’s comment, i never watched the full movie and i don’t know in what context he is reflecting on that.
          the fact that he doesn’t have answers is doesn’t make him a narcissist, at least i hope so, because i myself have absolutetly no idea of hat i want and what will make me happy, and i like to think that i’m not a narcissist.

          1. I’m not sure, Liza. I would also have to see the film for more context. (I’m gonna go with the original Michael Caine version.)

            Come to think of it, a show of introspection doesn’t necessarily indicate narcissism one way or another.

            My Narcx could introspect like nobody’s business.

          2. lisk,
            there is the real introspection, where you think to yourself honnestly about what you did, and what you should do, and being objectif about the events and honnest with your feelings, but there is also the show of introspection, where you speak outloud and tell others just how you regret this or that, or how sad and aimless you are in order to have the attention and copation of others.
            a narcissist can fake introspection just as good as they can fake ampathy,love or any other trait that they think would serve them in a particular situation, especially if the person you are talking about is a mid rander or a greater, they just wanted give them confort and focus your energy on them that’s all.

  16. I remember we already had this entry August/September, so I’ll just line up my suggestions here again
    James Bond
    Jay Gatsby in the Great Gatsby
    Heathcliff and Catherine in Wuthering Heights (although the latter is not always portrayed as such in film)
    Regina George in Mean Girls
    Christian Grey in 50 Shades of Grey
    Edward Cullen in Twilight

  17. Does it have to be film? Is tv ok?

    I happen to have on sitcom Mom, at the moment.
    The Mom and daughter, recovering alcoholics, drug addicts, and strippers, are a classic Narcissistic/ codependent relationship.

    The Mom (Allison Janney, hilarious), can make anything about herself. Turns everything around, gaslights, blame shifts, denies…. she is classic.

    Just A few examples

    The daughter is trying to apply to law school, inspired by a history of seeing her Mom hauled off to jail.
    The Mom only hears “I inspired you”

    The daughter tells of the Mom deserting her off and on
    The Mom refers to it as “Trying to find her a father”

    The Mom also has an ex gay partner that appears, that she had lied about for yrs as the daughters aunt

    Best show on tv

  18. Oh, I’ve been looking forward to something like this! Ever since I started studying your work, I was forced to re-evaluate the essence of not only my relationships, but also oh so many movies and TV series. What I once considered the greatest romances of the centuries turned out to be nothing more than a narcissistic dance (Wuthering Heights, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Gone with the Wind etc). My favorite Casablanca is, luckily, full of empaths. Or so it seems to me.

    What I really would like for you to analyze is Sex and the City the series, Four Weddings and a Funeral and Love, Actually (since ‘tis the season). Main characters are numerous in each of those, so the choice is yours whom you deem necessary to put under the Tudorscope.

    Thank you in advance, HG!

    1. Dolores, HG has done sex and the city, but I don’t know where the post is. I watch movies and things on TV very differently now !! There’s usually a narc somewhere in a movie , Scarlet being my favourite Narc😀

        1. Dolores Haze
          I think this is it. Enjoy!

          HG Tudor says:
          August 18, 2017 at 11:04
          Hello Yolo,

          I do not have a huge familiarity with Sex and the City but I know of it. Purely for entertainment, here is my breakdown of each of the characters from my perspective of Greater Elite

          1. Carrie Bradshaw

          A clear target for an IPPS or Shelf IPSS. Why? She is an empath and exhibits the empathic traits of honesty, decency, moral compass but especially love devotee. She is a firm believer in the concept of love and is dedicated to finding that lasting intimate partner. She has her long-standing friendship about people she clearly cares about.
          In terms of class traits, she appeals to an elite because she has some intelligence and creativity (she writes a column), is interested in fashion, dining out, attending bars, she is highly sociable and therefore has a good mix of cerebral and somatic traits.
          I do not know her childhood story (or if it was ever revealed during the show) but I suspect there is some damage there because she is very susceptible to our kind because:-
          a. She is pursued repeatedly and succumbs to the overtures of Mr Big – clearly one of our kind;
          b. She can be lured away from a relationship – thus is a Dirty Empath – as she commences an affair when she is with the interior designer chap
          c. She succumbs to love bombing – Petrovsky (another narcissist) love bombs and controls her

          Bradshaw will provide significant fuel owing to her empathic traits, her collective class traits appeal to an elite and she is clearly damaged as she falls prey to at least two of our kind.

          2. Charlotte York

          A clear target for an IPPS. ‘fish’ ‘shooting’ ‘barrel’ all spring to mind. Nearly off the charts in terms of empathic traits – compassionate (deals with Trey’s impotence and does not let it stand in the way of getting married), love devotee (utterly obsessed with finding the one and her knight in shining armour), moral compass (strong religious background), honest, decent, animal lover – the empathy just flows.
          In terms of class traits also appealing to an elite – over achiever therefore strong academics, but was a model when a teenager, prom queen, has a degree, always well-turned out, perfectionist – therefore classic mix of the cerebral and somatic traits. She also targets men who of professional and impressive standing (finance, law, medicine) and therefore would be naturally drawn to a Greater Elite since many would be in those professions.
          In terms of special traits, she is a perfectionist and therefore this suggests she has a strong need to control everything around her. This smacks of being generated by some kind of damage but also means that if she is losing control she will react in an emotional fashion very easily, thus lots of fuel.
          Would be very easy to ensnare.

          3. Miranda Hobbes

          Shelf IPSS. Has evident empathic traits (she cares for Steve when he has testicular cancer and also his dementia-suffering mother). She has a child and cares for her child as a single parent for a period of time. Has clear honesty, decency and a strong moral compass. Not so much a love devotee.
          In terms of class traits probably leans more towards a cerebral choice rather than that of an elite, hence I would choose her as a shelf. Her status as a lawyer ticks the boxes with regard to cerebral traits and she will have decent connections too (residual benefit) , but on the somatic side does not have the strength of traits and indeed she accepts a lower league partner (the bar-tender) and lives in cramped accommodation. Miranda would be a useful bolt-on from time to time re character traits and residual benefits, but her fuel provision would not be good enough to make her a consideration for an IPPS for me. She has an inherent cynicism of men and relationships (thus denoting her logic often prevails) which means she may prove costly in terms of control for an IPPS and is better served as a Self IPSS.

          4. Samantha Jones

          Dirty Little Secret. Why? Ms Jones is a narcissist, clearly Somatic. Self-centred, opinionated, high jealousy, infidelity, poor boundary recognition, no emotional empathy, multiple sexual partners, sexually fluid. She would serve well as a DLS for intense bursts of fuel provided through sex and also manipulating her in terms of triggering her huge jealous streak. She also has PR connections so there are some residual benefits. Her narcissism means that she is unsuitable for IPPS and even a Shelf IPSS, one could only countenance her in small doses but treating her that way, as she would seek to seduce and find the resistance of romantic interaction compelling and would heighten her attempts to seduce resulting in increased fuel provision.

          I could go into more detail but time prohibits.
          Of the four characters I would target install Jones as a DLS, have the other three as IPSSs, making York candidate IPSS and then eventual IPPS. Hobbes and Bradshaw would be placed on the shelf but interacted with as NISSs during the golden period of York (since as a Greater one would easily maintain them in the fuel matrix) with Jones being disengaged from. Once York enters devaluation, Jones would be hoovered and used to triangulate with York, Hobbes and Bradshaw would be returned to IPSS and used as shelf IPSSs (Bradshaw has potential to become a Candidate IPSS). I would look to organise a threesome involving Jones and York premised on this being York’s (ill-fated) chance to escape devaluation and save the relationship, but in reality it would just be a fuel fest. Disappointed with Bradshaw failing to make the grade she would be maintained as shelf IPSS as I turn my attention to Wendy Rhoades of Billions who would be a Candidate IPSS within moments.

          1. How horrendous all this machination sounds and also that I see myself and my narc story so much in Carry’s character… glad I’m out! I don’t have any Manolos unfortunately.

  19. Spirits in the Forest, by Depeche Mode. Released mmm… last night? Guess who the narcissist is. PS: It was A-M-A-Z-I-N-G 🖤

    1. I was going to ask if anyone had seen it yet.

      Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. Not just for conceit, but for the way he doesn’t care which bystanders gets hurt by his actions: Belle’s father, the Three Silly Girls, the animals he hunts for trophies rather than food….

      His actions on hearing that Belle prefers the company of a “hideous beast” to his are textbook Narcissistic rage.

      1. And now that I’m reading Sitting Target, Gaston is defo a somatic, with LeFou as his arse-licking lieutenant.

        The Queen in Snow White is malign. Nobody knows or cares where Snow White disappeared to except the Mirror, but Queenie has to chase her all over the fairytale map to make sure Snow White won’t stay the fairest…and to get her revenge, she makes herself old and hideous, as if she has forgotten what this whole rivalry was about in the first place. What if she’d managed to Snowy and couldn’t switch back? Oh well, she’s a Narc. Get that fuel first.

    2. Ohhh SP was it that good? I sooooo wanted to go, but we had a death in the family a few days ago so I didn’t have the opportunity.


      To answer the question of narcs on screen, absolutely and completely the main character from the 90s TV series Profit.

      He was abused and neglected as a child. As an adult he joins a big business type of company and basically makes it his mission to climb his way to the top… by any means necessary.

      It’s twisted and chilling and very good.

      1. TPoT, I’m sorry about your family loss. The film was really good!!!!! My friend and I were sitting at the front row so I took really good pictures that I wish I could share with you. I was the only one singing and raising my arms because I have no shame. In a way I wish I could have taken a ride with my … haha JK, I was saying I wish I could have taken my friend to watch it in my hometown with my Mode friends, people in my country are much more passionate in public events. But we had a great time.

        1. Ahh that sounds like you had a great time!

          I can’t imagine anyone in England waving and singing in the cinema! (Not unless it was maybe some Mamma Mia sing-along or something! I wouldn’t know though, I’ve never been to a sing-along film showing.)

          And thank you for your sympathy. It was my mother-in-law. Cancer. We knew it was coming but it was still an awful blow. She was a very kind woman who really doted on her family. Time will help with grief, I suppose, as with all things in life.

          1. I’m sorry, TPoT.
            Angels with silver wings
            Shouldn’t know suffering
            I wish I could take the pain for you.

            I hate cancer. ❤️

          2. Thank you SP xx

            Cancer is the devil. It took my grandfather in 2003, it took my cousin in April last year (he was only the same age as me, 34 at the time), and now it has taken my MIL.

            Another cousin of mine went through it a few years ago when he was in his early 20s and thankfully come out of the other side, and my step-brother’s son (he’s only 11) also went through cancer last year and touch wood he’s okay at the moment.

            It’s evil. Don’t get me started on how absolutely and utterly useless Cancer Research as a charity actually is.

            Back to the thread, I just thought of another film with a narc in it. Heartburn with Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep. JN is so definitely a narc, and MS his IPP.
            If I had to pin what type of narc the character is, I would say lesser.

          3. TPOT:

            Why is cancer research useless? Or are the charities useless?

            Sorry about your MIL, but I’m impressed the two of you had a good relationship. That speaks well for you both

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