The Narcissist and Film

The recent analysis of the television programme “Big Little Lies” provided an opportunity to see a number of narcissists from a variety of schools “in action” with a wide range of portrayals.

With your improved knowledge and understanding, here is an opportunity for you to identify and explain those films where you consider that a main character is a narcissist and why. The floor is yours. Identify the film and the character (and you can do as many as you wish) where you believe that film to amount to an excellent portrayal or a “best fit” portrayal of a narcissist.

Remember, it is the character(s) not the person playing them that are identified as narcissists.

Let’s see who you suggest and feel free to constructively debate the choices of others. This will enable you to flex your learning and potentially have exposure to some further information and learning through either fictional film or television programme.

426 thoughts on “The Narcissist and Film

  1. Liza says:

    I have watched desperate housewives this month ( yes I’m embarrassed about it, and if anyone in real life asked if watched it, I will not tell the truth even under torture) but I NEED to rant about Susan.

    All of them are annoying and boring and I mostly liked to hate them, but suan, suan, susan !!!!!!!!!!!! for the very first time in my whole life, I understood what it feels like to want to hit someone, up till now, it was just a vague notion to me, but thanks to her, I got it now. Should i ever find myself in front of her, I think I’d rather remove my eyes and pierce my tampons to avoid seeing or hearing her. To think that the show tried to sell her as the cute one is really beyond my understanding. There is nothing cute about her, babies behaving like babies are cute, adults behaving like babies are cringy and unsettling, and it is the 100th league of manipulation.

    So her nacissisme palmeres:

    1) She mostly lives by making others feel guilty for not accommodating her unreasonable demands. she was angry at Linette for not giving her the job she decides she deserves without even letting her know that she is interested, she wanted to coerce her mother into giving her a kidney and started hating her when she refused without even trying to understand her, she is always crying and pouting whenever someones tell her no.

    2) She objectifies people and has a sense of propriety over everyone that came to have any sort of relationship with her. She still thinks that she has the right to be angry at people for going out with her ex-husband or ex-boyfriends ( like in the word ex, there is the word ex, i can’t understand what part of this she can’t grasp).

    3) She is a total hypocrite. She is the first to cast moral judgments on others, but when Susan wants something, the end justifies the means. She had the audacity to be angry at Catherine for going out with mike when she herself, was in a relationship with another man, but she also didn’t understand why Catherine was angry when she stole mike while he was still with her. When mike was taking illegal drugs to relieve his shoulder pain so he could work more and offer his son a better life, she was horrified and judged him, telling him that she can’t live with a drug user, but when she found herself in a situation where she had to change houses to a smaller one, she didn’t hesitate to star filming semi-porn videos ( i am not judging or insulting or disproving anyone who chooses to work in this kind of industry, I’m just pointing that if you apply Susan’s standard of what she claims to be her moral values, she doesn’t measure up to them. and it was not like she was on the streets or anything, she just couldn’t bear the see her lifestyle change a little bit).

    4) She has no empathy. Her empathy is fake and is applied only when her interests align with the person she decides to empathise with, but if you are in the other team, she wouldn’t mind crushing you. She was so cruel as to send mike’s son, i think his name is zack, to the other side of the country, and by doing so, nullifying his chances of meeting his father and taking the risque of something happening to him. He was a minor, not very smart, and with a lot of psychological issues, but just because she didn’t want him near her daughter, she didn’t mind risking his safety, and had no problem depraving mike, the man she claims she loves, from the chance to meet and built a relationship with his son.
    When she suspected that Dany a 17 years old, was her daughter’s aggressor, without any proof, and later even when the police confirmed that he was innocent, she continued to smear him to the whole neighborhood and by doing so, exposing him to being shunned and bullied at school, she even tried to kill him by crushing him under a car.

    5) She heavily relies on using smear campaigns to discredit anyone who isn’t in her team, she did it to edy and always tried to exclude her, she did it with dany, with paul young, with catherine. And she actively does it, it is not like she is talking to someone and the subject comes to the frond by inadvertence, no, she comes out from her house, and her main objective is to smear whoever has the misfortune to be an obstacle of her goals at that moment.

    In conclusion, I HATE her, and I hate her even more for trying to appear cute and nice, and looking like she is constantly 2 steps from bursting in tears.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Liza, ‘Desperate Housewives’, yes I recall watching a series of this programme. Interesting to read your comments on it – especially the Susan character. I’d told muvver about this programme and was very surprised to learn that she had started watching it herself. She probably ‘felt’ at ‘home’ 😉

      1. Liza says:

        Hello Asp,

        Thank you for your comment. May I ask who is muvver ? I’m sorry if you had already explained it elsewhere, I didn’t see it.

        Watching DHW was a mini personal revenge, I remember my older cousins always talking about it, but since I was in primary school when it was airing, they would never let me watch with them, and I was seeing myself as a victim of terrible injustice, so when I found it was being replayed in a channel named 6ter, I was like ” hey now I can watch what I want” so I looked at it a little bit, and it was my downfall and the beginning of my hate story with Susan

  2. Liza says:

    I’m currently reading a webtoon named Black Lotus and it is the most heart breaking and infuriating story i’v read so far in my long life.

    There is a married couple, 2 men, it seems that it is an arranged marriage but not totaly arranged, like they both loved each other at some point and one of them (the nice one) is still deeply in love with his husband, but a series of misunderstadings and the manipulations of a third party makes the nice guy appear as if he married his husband out of interest and that drived the husband away.

    Till now, you might think it is understandable that if you suspect your spouse married you to take advantage of you, you will resent them, but here the bad guy has no evidence and he is abusing the nice one and refuses to let him explain anything, he cheats on him ovretly, he abuses him physically, and he forbed him from playing the piano knowing that music is the most importent thing in the world for him.

    The worst thing the bad husband did is that he caugh the good husband playing on th piano his late mother left for him and he was like ” i told you to never play piano again” and then he destroyed the instrument while knowing that it is most imorted thing left by his dead and beloved mother but even after that the good husband forgave him and he even composed a music for him for his birthday but the partition was stolen by the bad husband’s mistress and the bad husband took the mistress’ side.

    And there are a lot of other horrible things the bad husband did to my baby and my adorable baby forgave him, but the abuse seemed so important and the situation irreparable + there is a nice guy who appered and is in love with the nice husband, treats him well and only wants him to be happy, so i had hope that this story will take a good rout and the bad guy will not be rewarded, but my happines was short lived, a girl spoiled me, she is reading the original novel hand the good husband wil end up with that monster who will become magically nice.

    I am so frustrated, first i feel stuck because when i started reading i didn’t expecy such a heart breaking story,i can’t stop midway, plus i must reading knowing that this horrible person will do all those cruel things and end up rewarded with my baby niannann’s love, it ruins my mood evry week.

    1. Liza says:

      You must be used to my poor writing skills, but still, sorry for the typos

      “don’t be sorry, improve” thinks HG

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        I understood everything you wrote perfectly well. No problems with your writing skills at all. Please continue to comment on articles, we don’t care about perfect English here, just the thoughts behind the words. Xx

        I think I’m about to have a similar reaction to the book I’m reading. My son is about to study it in school. I can’t believe I haven’t already read it but confess I haven’t. ‘Of Mice and Men.’ I’ve only just met the characters and have already anticipated that I am going to cry my heart out at the end!

        1. Asp Emp says:

          ‘Of Mice & Men’ – I read that (mother insisted) when I was around 15. I vaguely recall it.

        2. Liza says:

          Thank you Truthseeker6157 <3 acutally evryone on the blog had always been verry leniant regarding my frequent gramatical and spelling mistakes, i just can't help feeling bad and embarassed about it when i read it, especially that english isn't my 1st langage so i'm always afraid that doing a lot of spelling mistakes might appear as a disregard and a lake of interest for the langage and the potiential readers who might come across my comment.

          I never read "mince and men" i checkd the abstarct online just now, and it seems to be a sad story, i clearly don't have the mental resources to read it, i just want happy and light stories, the more i grow the more my mood gets affected by things i read and see and it lastes longer, it is lame but unless i'm offred an other personality by the universe, i will never again take the risque to start reading or watching anything sad. I will finish this story because if i don't i will obsess over it the rest of my life, but in the future i will be verry carfeul

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, I know what you mean. Things I watch, read or hear can stay with me for days afterwards. If it’s a sad film, I’ll wake up the following day still feeling sad when I know that sadness isn’t mine, it isn’t coming from me, it’s the residual effect of the film. I think that’s the Contagion element in play. Do you know if you have a Contagion element in your empathic make up? No need to answer if you don’t feel comfortable discussing!

          2. Liza says:

            None of what you said makes me uncfortable at all Truthseeker6157, so to answer the question i never did an epath detector so don’t really know.

            If i have to give an intellecutualise analysis about how i feel things, it is more like i can’t help imagining myself in evry situation i witness or hear about, and when i don’t know how to help the relevent persone, i feel panicked and untable to let go because i’m afraid that if i don’t solve it, it means that if it were really me i would be in a bad position and that particular case would go in a box “don’t know what to do about it ” and it stresses me lot, if you combine this with my obsessive mide, it means trouble.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, I know what you mean. Other people’s hurt becomes yours, their bad situations your bad situations. I get that here on the blog sometimes too. If I’m in discussion, I’ll think about a comment afterwards, when I’m driving or tasking. I wonder if it’s because of this, maybe I should have thought of this suggestion or that idea. Maybe that might have been more help. Round and round it goes. Similar to you, if I can’t think of a solution I start to feel anxious, I’ll keep thinking until I come up with something. Not all problems are within my capability to solve though and I have a difficult time knowing when to stop thinking about them sometimes. I’m not sure that’s Contagion as such, probably more empathy than anything else! It’s not lame though Liza. If everybody looked out for others a little more, the world would be a healthier place. It’s a pain to live with but it’s a nice way to be.

            By the way, don’t read of Mice and Men. Toooo sad, and I’m only part way through it!

          4. Liza says:


            “By the way, don’t read of Mice and Men. Toooo sad, and I’m only part way through it!” So it doesn’t just seem sad, it is indeed sad? then for sure i’m not reading it.

            I don’t know if it is your style, but i’d suggest the writer jules Verne to lift your mood, his stories are always about amazing adventures, his books give the same vibe as children stories but for grown ups.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for the recommendation. I haven’t read any of his books. I’ll take a look 🙂

    2. Liza says:

      My baby niannan finally divorced that cruel monster and is now doing verry good whitout him, and that horrible gu yansheng is now burning with jealousy and regrets because now that it is too late he finaly realised that he was wrong from the start and that he was being blinde and deceived by his mistress, but he still behaves like a jerk and thinks he as the right to ask his ex husband to be accoutable to him and is making scenes whenever he sees him with someone else.

      That monster is suffering like hell and i’m sadistically stisfied about it and i don’t feel bad for him att all, i know that they will end up toghether but i want him to suffer the maximum before he gets any sort of relief, because no mattter what a hard time he has now it will never make up for the 3 years my lovely niannan had spent lonely, suffering, and his poor heart repeatedly broken, he was accused of being a lier a cheater and a hypocrite when he was actually an angel and i hate to watche him being mistreted evry week for nearly a year, so niannan and myself DESERVE to seem him suffer and pay his cruelty and his stupidity.

  3. Sammy says:

    Prince Hans in Frozen. Arthur Fleck in The Joker.. I have just started a You Tube channel looking at this subject through the lens of films and stories, such an excellent medium to educate people who don’t get it. If it is ok to share a link to that here H.G. Tudor then do let me know, I would love to hear your thoughts on it. I have consulted with you in the past and you have seen some of my previous work on You Tube as we had some brief communication about it. I am back again doing this work and as always, I am constantly looking to your work for my research and understanding. So grateful.

  4. Another Cat says:

    Hm. Those two characters with Peters Sarsgaard.

    One, the deceiving professor in An Education.

    Two, the flight crew on that film with Jody Foster. He tried to convinced her that she actually doesn’t have a child.

    (interestingly enough, I believe the actor is very empathic)

    1. Another Cat says:



      Oh, and Maggie Gyllenhaal too, empathic looking. Probably a happy couple.

  5. Asp Emp says:

    That fkg prick – Kevin Spacey in ‘K-Pax’. OMG, after I saw your article, HG, ‘A Very Deflecting Narcissist’

    I will never EVER watch any films he is in – EVER again. Knowing what I know about him now, made me totally understand the film ‘K-Pax’ even more – in fact, I believe he actually played ‘himself’ in this film.

    I am so fkg glad that a film was not actually completed because he was in it…… fkg deserves more than ‘HG Mauls’….. FAR more than that.

    Kevin Spacey is DISGUSTING. Yes, he has narcissism. Yet, absolutely no excuse.

    God! I am really contradicting myself here and my views AND my learning about narcissism – but this is Kevin Spacey – no. Not acceptable. He deserves to be CASTRATED for what he has done to those poor innocent young men……

    1. A Victor says:

      I agree, and also think all people who do these things to innocent victims deserve the same. And locked up for life afterward.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Yeah, locked in the same room…..

    2. Violetta says:

      He was awesome in American Beauty
      He had me utterly fooled.

      1. A Victor says:

        I enjoyed some of his early work very much. He was always odd but it seemed to make his characters that much more realistic. Now he just needs to be locked up.

  6. wildviolet22 says:

    Hugh Grant’s character, John, in The Undoing on HBO (with Nicole Kidman), is a narcissist. Excellent show; 6 episodes.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes it is and it has again awoken those who think I am Hugh Grant. I am not.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Ha ha! There it is.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Not likely to get an answer to this one, but are you Daniel Craig?

        (Either way, I’m still going to imagine you as 007 😉 )

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, I am not.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            **SP unfollows all the Daniel Craig official IG profiles**

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Well, that puts that theory to rest.

            Several theories converged in my mind, including the fact he is one of your kind.

            So, 007 is not the “Ultra”.

            Back to the drawing board for me.

            Thanks, HG 🙂

        2. Asp Emp says:


          Silly moo!

          HG is The Ultra.

          Why the fk would he do James Bond films? HG is better than that. He has more important things to do with his time.

          HG is The Ultra. HG is far better than Daniel Craig.

          Forget it, nobody knows what HG really looks like these days. HG can change the way he looks at any time – like a chameleon can change it’s colours – to suit it’s surroundings and whatever ‘prey’ it is after….. HG is no ‘shape-shifter’, no ‘vampire, no ‘figurement of imagination’ – he exists, as who and what he is (when it suits him).

          HG is…. HG. He is ‘The Ultra’.

          He is doing what we, empaths, need and lack in the world of “science” and “medical” world (cos, they are fkg TWATS). He is a man, with knowledge, intelligence and a heart that does not really ‘exist’ elsewhere.

          I accept him, as the person he is.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            What was the name of the guy who played opposite Julia Robert’s in Notting Hill? Might be him.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Hugh Grant.
            If you suggest Rhys Ifans, you are dungeoned. Permanently.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            “Rhys Ifans” (crying with laughter) – at remembering the actor at the start of the film…..

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            First off, hats off to you, SP 🙂 At least I wasn’t the only one!

            And AspEmp, we know HG has a ‘day job’, we just don’t know what it is. It’s fun to play around with ideas and there’s been quite a few tossed about. It is not in any way a reflection on HG, though I thought nominating Daniel Craig was an upper echelon idea in terms of giving him some kudos apart from the very important work he does here. No doubt we all create an image of HG in our own minds, and I don’t think that is troublesome to him for the most part … depending on our choice of candidates 😛 Certainly it can’t take away from what he does and I offered up my suggestion in light of that. Daniel Craig, as I am now aware, is a narc. He has ‘laser like’ eyes. And he has a secretive role in international affairs. HG is the perfect fit for a globetrotting movie star (including the somatic nature of his narcissism) who plays the part of an international spy. The only thing I don’t know is how intelligent Daniel Craig is, so that could be where the Ultra comes out on top 🙂

            Apologies if I talked Daniel Craig up too much there, HG!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Not a problem, he played Bond as Bond should be played.

            The only problem Daniel Craig has is that he is a Liverpool fan.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, HG. I’m glad we can agree on Craig’s portrayal of Bond, and you’re definitely not him if he’s a Liverpool supporter!

            Of course, he has now gone up a little further in my estimation 😉

          7. Asp Emp says:


          8. Another Cat says:

            “Daniel Craig, as I am now aware, is a narc.”

            Sad to read this, I really like Rachel Weisz, seems so kind and intelligent.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Laughing, wasn’t sure you would get it.

            Dungeoned? Permanently? Harsh, very harsh.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            “Dungeoned? Permanently? Harsh, very harsh” – it’s a harsh ‘threat’…… I don’t think HG would……

          11. HG Tudor says:

            It is not a threat, it was a choice.

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Ok, Sir. I understand. Thank you HG. 🙂

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I see what you are doing there Mr Tudor.

          14. Asp Emp says:


          15. A Victor says:

            Hugh Grant did not spring to my mind upon hearing HG’s voice, Hugh Grant doesn’t have the resonance HG has. But, there was an advertisement for Calm that went by on my Instagram one day and a man named Chiké Okonkwo was speaking. That voice, initially, I was convinced was HG. Upon further investigation though, even Chike did not have quite the same depth and fullness of sound. It is a fun mystery!

          16. Asp Emp says:

            “It is a fun mystery!” – yes, it is….

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Yes, the illusion has been spoiled a little for me, too, AC. Although we could assume James Bond is a narc. The way he goes through women for a start!

            Don’t know if you’ve seen “Dream House”with Daniel Craig and Rachel Weisz. I think that is the movie where they met and ‘fell in love’. He had another girlfriend before that who doesn’t like to speak of him (which I find interesting and on that basis would assume Daniel is of the Greater kind). Though that is just a snippet I gleaned and I think the information came from her father. Why the secrecy? Could just be a privacy issue, but I’m reading more into it than that. Anyway, Dream House is an interesting movie, though I can’t say I noticed any particular spark between them in that film. Might need to take another look just to satisfy my curiosity. Also “Knives Out” is another one with Daniel Craig I watched recently. Found it hard to adjust to his Deep South accent, but it was a fun film and I enjoyed the part he played. His blue eyes were absolutely stunning in that movie. And cold as ice.

            Anyone would think I’m a massive fan 😛 Call me curious.

          18. Asp Emp says:

            You do sound like a huge fan of Daniel Craig. Thank you for the film titles, I will Google on those. Curiosity Killed The Cat……

          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            “Curiosity killed the cat” … haha, AspEmp 😛

            Not sure how many lives I’ve got left …

            I think you will enjoy both those movies. Psychological thrillers, and “Knives Out” is quite humourous as well. Still can’t get over those very blue eyes. I will hope for some feedback if HG allows it 🙂

      3. JB says:

        HG, why do people think you’re Hugh Grant? Purely the initials?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes and to the untrained ear we sound similar – especially to those who don’t speak English as their first language.

          1. JB says:

            You sound nothing like him! But I guess it’s hard to distinguish between different accent traits if English isn’t the first language.

            I don’t get why it’s automatically assumed that your identity is a known (famous) one?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed we do not sound alike at all, but it is often difficult for those who speak English as a second language to distinguish. Someone once suggested, on hearing my voice, that I was someone called Vam Saknin (whoever he is). The person who made the suggestion is no longer with us.

            I am not a famous person, but I am well-known in certain circles, not ones you would be familiar with.

          3. Witch says:

            I don’t know how to describe accents in the academic way but you sound even posher than high Grant, you pronounce every letter of the word and elongated like control is
            “Couuunn ttrrrrooooll”
            Hugh doesn’t do that

            Also if you may attention to the details, the hands are different.
            And under auto consultation you had a picture of a mouth with a goatee which I’ve always wondered if it was your mouth. Hugh Grant has had a goatee but the lips are different.
            It would also mean you’re lying about your whole background which I don’t believe is the case due to selling the knowing HG series.
            Also I’m guessing HUghs father was the narc.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Is that you peering in through my study window, Witch ?!!

          5. Asp Emp says:


          6. Fieke says:

            Haha LOL yes that is true. I had to get Hugh out of my mind when I first started listening to you HG. I just couldn’t take anything seriously. Hugh is to light weight to be mr Tudor. And indeed English as second language.

          7. Witch says:

            This is all with limited resources (I only have WiFi)
            Can you imagine if I had the resources to hire a private investigator 🤣
            And this is not even the worst of it…
            I once got it into my mind that your mother may have been a conservative MP so I went through the whole list of female conversative MPS trying to find one who’s personal life matched lmao

          8. HG Tudor says:

            All you would learn is what I would allow you to learn. I sit behind a multitude of proxies and the bridge is one way.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            I am a bit like that too – using several email addresses for different types of ‘contacts’. Especially since the narcissists at work released that “policy” about personal mobile phones and being “allowed” to spy. I have since, blocked the work email domains…..

          10. JB says:

            You’re nothing like ‘Vam Saknin’ either!

            ‘I’m well-known in certain circles, not ones you would be familiar with’ – how would you know, seeing as you don’t know me either?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Believe me, you do not move in those circles. If you did, you would not be where you are now.

          12. Witch says:

            Do you withhold your birth certificate name from some of your IPPS?

          13. HG Tudor says:


          14. Witch says:

            “Believe me, you do not move in those circles. If you did, you would not be where you are now.”

            Are you trying to say your gang is not very perceptive?

          15. HG Tudor says:

            No. I am explaining that I move in certain circles which you do not.

          16. Witch says:

            Hg do you go to gentlemen’s clubs that have passwords and and the barman wears a monocle?

          17. HG Tudor says:

            As often as I am able to do so.

          18. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, that’s just creepy!

          19. A Victor says:

            Witch, you have me in stitches again!!! I love how you boldly poke, prod and pester to find out whatever you can! It’s great!

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            I am curious now about the Birth Cert and different IPPS. I recall in listening to the “The Tudorites Ask HG” series Part 1 (please correct me if I am wrong, but I might listen to it again for the sake of this post) that you eluded to the fact your identity was ‘scrambled’ for these IPPSs. That took me by surprise. I assumed they would have to know who you were in order to interact within your world. Unless you were a completely different person for them. As in, the “Catch Me If You Can” kind of identity change. A veritable chameleon if you will in terms of everything about you – including your work, your residence, etc. Which would also have to include moving around quite a bit. But some things in your life sound quite stable. Like your home in Scotland. Which a number of IPPSs have been to visit. Anyway, I do remember in that episode the mention of a possibility you will reveal yourself eventually. In fact, it seemed more definite than not. And I wondered when? I’m hoping I don’t die before we get to find out 😛

          21. witch says:

            @ A Victor

            I think I shamed myself by making it seem like I have no life looking through Wikipedia lists of female conservative MPS
            But I promise I do things sometimes… I had about 7 tequila shots on Saturday 👍🏼

          22. A Victor says:

            @Witch, I am curious to know what you did following the 7 shots of Tequila?!?!?!? Lololol!! That stuff brings out the crazy in anybody!!

          23. Witch says:

            I joined in on karaoke and did the gwara gwara but don’t worry I didn’t twerk in front of the uncles, I still had some self control

        2. Alexissmith2016 says:

          JB just be bloody thankful you don’t move In those circles as I’m sure HG is thankful he does. Oops typo *entitled not thankful

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            HG, I’m very intrigued to know what trait it is which many empaths have which prompts them to wonder who you are?

            Is it linked to truth seeking?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Yes and general sexual arousal.

          3. Asp Emp says:


          4. JB says:

            Alexissmith2016, ‘which trait…?’ – the trait of nosiness! Pure nosiness! In my case, anyway! 😂 The mind boggles re. the circles, sounds like you know something I don’t..

            HG, ‘General sexual arousal’, honestly! 😂

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Well Field Marshal Sexual Arousal if we are being specific, has to be top job.

          6. njfilly says:

            I thought I heard somebody mention sexual arousal. This is my cue to enter.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I have already entered.

          8. njfilly says:

            Your everpresence is everywhere.

          9. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Crikey! And sexual arousal lol

          10. A Victor says:

            It’s just those double entendres that are so dang irresistible, that summer narc was so good at those!! Ugh!

        3. Alexissmith2016 says:

          JB, I have no clue which circles HG moves in, it’s more about there being lots of self aware narcs in those places. I enjoy observing narcs interacting but i don’t get to observe that with greaters. I believe I know one or two but Don’t get to be a fly on the wall to see them with other greaters. I would not want to be enmeshed in that world. It has never appealed to me and even less so nowi truly know what they are.

          Would you want to?

          Hahah nosiness okay lol thanks JB.

          1. JB says:

            Alexissmith2016, hope I didn’t cause any offence with the nosiness comment? I meant me being nosy, rather than anyone else. I asked my N once if he thought I was nosy, because he would get irate when I asked him things, and he said yes. Anyway, I am sorry if I upset you x

            No, I don’t think I would want to. Was kind of playing silly buggers, pointing out that although HG possibly has some idea, he doesn’t actually know which circles any of us move in as we also only allow him to see what we want him to see.

          2. Another Cat says:

            JB, Alexissmith

            This is another one of the issues others ponder a lot, but I just don’t anymore. I’m a truthseeker with too much pride in my knowledge, which causes me a lot of awkwardness when I’m wrong. It’s both an empathic (saviour of the excluded) and a narcissistic trait (I know the real truth, yada yada).

            HG tells us we wouldn’t be here if we were in his circles, so I conclude he works in investigation, secret service, guarding etc.

            Where Emotional Thinking needs to be extremely low, concentration high. LT at a general high.

            What we all have incommon over here is our ET, occassionally at haywire. At least mine!

            In an older comment someone says to HG “You are my Hero” whereby he responds with “In more ways than you can imagine. “. Yet another sign for me that he works at least some of his dayjob in protecting countries and ppl from crime. Plus during coronayear he travels a lot. Now why is that? I think he has a very important job. I like the anonymity of HG.

            Hm, maybe I fantasize much when hearing names like Daniel Craig…

          3. alexissmith2016 says:


            Aww I know what you mean regarding truthseeking trait and pride. My truthseeking trait is strong, but clearly my pride way stronger because I would no way ever ask someone why they had not replied e.g. N during devaluation. Absolutely no way. But my truthseeking comes out in other ways. if I feel something is sufficiently important I will absolutely forgo my pride and I won’t be stopped! Clearly I never valued my relationship with an N over my pride hahaha

            It used to bother me being wrong, but my husband taught me to laugh it off. And so i don’t find it a problem at all any more. It’s a useful tactic. And yes when I’m right I and someone else is wrong I don’t even bother questioning them any more, unless there is real importance attached to it. e.g. at my gym I was chatting to a guy about covid, dumb, and he was like well its been around alot longer than we know about, why do you think dettol states it can kill coronavirus. I just smiled and accepted what he said knowing any response I could offer would be completely wasted.

            My ET used to be sky high at times, very under control at others. I can honestly say that reading HGs work has transformed my life. my ET 95% of the time is completely under control because I can explain away the behaviours of others. There are still times when it rockets. Golden rule, it is never your fault anothercat! always the fault of an N somewhere in the world 🙂

          4. JB says:

            Another Cat,

            I don’t think one can even begin to successfully speculate about HG’s true identity. He said himself, he only allows you to see what he wants you to see. Various statements made in the past may well lead us to think he works in a particular area, but that could well be leading us up the garden path deliberately to maintain anonymity. HG said in one of his articles ‘you breathe, we lie’ (or words to that effect, apologies if I have remembered the wording incorrectly), and this sticks in my mind. So I don’t think we will ever know the truth, but I do like a bit of speculation! 😆

      4. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Interesting people get you confused. Is Hughie on any of your narcy lists at all? I’m pretty sure purchased them all but just wanted to double check I haven’t missed one or him.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He is not on the already created lists.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah okay thank you HG. It would be great if he was included on any future lists.

          2. Violetta says:

            Don’t know about Hugh Grant, but I’m betting his ex Liz Hurley is one.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            for sure Violetta! without a doubt she is

            I know I feel unsure about Hughie. I don’t really follow celebs too much but of course could not avoid having knowledge of he and Liz and Ms Brown I believe it was? that’s about it. I could be persuaded either way on him.

    2. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Interesting, I was very disappointed in this. There was the odd little indicator but no real evidence of emotional abuse and I was suprised thst as he was a narc and of a reasonable calibre thst he would have had such a low control threshold especially when no violent history. I thought he seemed okay right until the end when quite frankly he just behaved bizarrely.

      H did have sex with his wife after he had killed someone but other than that I thought his behaviours were not too off given the circumstance he was in.

      But you never really saw enough of his marriage and his wife was incredibly stable for someone who had lived with a narc for so long.

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      I have just had an opportunity to watch this series. It was excellent and worthy of some discussion I think.

      I’m afraid I didn’t find Hugh Grant charming at all in this series. Although he was portrayed as being such.

      *Spoiler Alert* for anyone who hasn’t seen it and intends to watch it. Read no further 😉

      – I want to go first to the woman he was having an affair with. There was a suggestion during the trial she had psychological issues, but they were never revealed in Court. Hugh Grant tried previously to get the answer from her own husband, no doubt in order to cover his own ass. I saw her as very manipulative. She targeted Nicole Kidman’s character and became very exhibitionist in her behaviour. For a start, most breastfeeding women do not rip their tops downwards and expose their full breast in order to breastfeed. They lift their top from the bottom to expose the part of the breast required, or unbutton a top revealing as little of the breast as possible. That would be the norm in public based on my own experience. She then proceeds to stand fully naked in front of Nicole Kidman in a very exhibitionist stance. NK has no idea what’s going on, but the behaviour is revealing. Trying to befriend NK, while in the process of having an affair with her husband smacks of a lack of empathy, sense of entitlement, lack of boundaries and grandiosity. I think she was a narc as well. She obviously has no empathy for NK and in a sense is toying with her. Following her around, trying to get close to her, and introducing the baby which she had with NKs husband. NK is completely unaware and becomes victim to both the mistress’s and her husband’s gaslighting behaviour.

      – I thought the turnaround in the case was interesting and NKs testimony was her final chance for escape. There were many times I felt if that was me I would have just kicked his ass to the curb. Namely after his arrest. I wouldn’t have looked back and let the prosecution hang him out to dry. Her inability to do that eventually put their son at risk. At the same time it was unbelievable how many ways she was lied to, or information not given to her, where she could have made her escape earlier. All for seemingly legitimate reasons. Her best friend lied, her father lied, her son lied and somehow that all comes back to Hugh Grant’s ability to charm and obfuscate and rely on issues around confidentiality. All those people were triangulated in the situation, the son still wanting his parent’s marriage to work out. And fancy using her best friend as his lawyer who is bound by the issue of confidentiality not to reveal to the wife that her husband had lost his job. And why. I would have refused to take his case. End of story. The father thinks he is helping his daughter who he knows is reluctant to ask for favours normally. With that amount of money involved he should have consulted her around the issue. And she might have asked more questions of her husband.

      – I was hoping it was going to be brought up during that final period of questioning that Hugh Grant had returned home to make love to his wife after apparently finding his mistress beaten to death. That shows his lack of empathy, but instead they only relied on information provided by his mother. Either way NK was done after hearing from his mother and realizing who/what she was married to, thus being finally convinced of his guilt.

      – I do not understand the parent’s thinking that it was OK to bring underage children to a jury murder trial! Weren’t they already traumatized enough? Who’s idea was that? That part of the story didn’t ring true for me, unless a child was called as a witness and if that was the case I doubt they would be exposed to the full hearing. As it was the Defense managed to make use of one of the children being present which doesn’t really go anywhere in the end. There were some red herrings in that regard. In fact there were a few, but it kept you on the edge of your seat. I did think it more likely Hugh Grant would have attempted to throw his son over the bridge in the end. In an act of revenge on his wife. Very dark thoughts indeed.

      All in all an interesting portrayal of the issues at hand. And a disturbing look at how many chances the narcissist got, and the many ways he was able to manipulate people and pull the wool over their eyes.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        The Undoing was excellent to watch with the knowledge we have gained here. Previous to my education at narcsite I would likely have dismissed a lot of the behaviours as preposterous, which only goes to show what we’re up against when trying to explain narcissism to someone unaware. That’s why it’s best to direct them to the material here so they can absorb it and then see it played out in a series like The Undoing. I’ll bet there were many people unaware of narcissism that watched it with the mindset that I had previously and dismissed it as purely fictional entertainment. Others will have identified with some of the situations and behaviours and take solace in that they are not alone but still not understand what they are involved in. I’m certain there was mad googling after watching for the latter group and hopefully they find their way here.

  7. Liza says:

    I was watching the lonney tunes with my little cousin, and i realized that Daffy duck is a narcissist, he displays all the traits of a narcissist, he is entitled, callous, blameshifts, he totally and completely lacks empathy, he demands constant attention and he is always abusing porky ( who by the way i think is an empath).

    PS: sorry, I know it is an old post but i wanted to say it and this post is the only one i remember that is related to the subject

  8. Geminimom says:

    Fred flintstone. Cartoon most kids watched.

    1. K says:

      The Jetsons! Those were the days.

      1. Violetta says:

        Alexandra in Josie and the Pussycats.

  9. Gina says:

    The Social Network-Mark Zuckerberg, Breaking Bad-Heisenberg, Gilmore Girls-Emily and probably Richard Gilmore, American Psycho-Patrick Bateman (also a psychopath), The Gift-the husband played by Jason Bateman, Weeds-Nancy Botwin, Gone Girl-the wife, Ordinary People- classic MatriNarc, The Talented Mr Ripley-Ripley (also a psychopath)

    1. Anm says:

      Gina! Haha. Interesting you chose Nancy from Weeds. I watched that show when it first came out. I always thought it was strange how she couldn’t emphasize with anyone, and was emotionally shut down. At first I was like, “maybe it’s because her husband died on the show”, but you are right, she was a narcissist.

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      Definitely :Ordinary People: and the Matrinarc. I very much identified with that movie.

      Also “The Talented Mr Ripley”. Matt Damon was the classic Narcissistic Psychopath.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        “The Talented Mr Ripley” – THAT is some film. Brilliant film. I cannot say that about many films, but, yeah, that one is good.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          I didn’t know about narcissists when I first watched it, AspEmp, but he certainly fits the bill. The fact that he literally took on Dicky’s identity and the manipulations he had to perform in order to do so. At so many points he could have been caught but managed to somehow twist and turn to avoid detection. Of course, technology these days would prevent a lot of that. At times I felt sorry for Matt Damon’s character and his need to take on another persona due to a lack of having his own. It was actually quite painful to watch, and how easily he could have been dismissed if he had rested on his own achievements. In his own mind he was nobody unless he could accrue to himself the identity and achievement of others (in this case Dicky). And when he was called out on it at various times, I felt his sense of discomfort then, too. But he maintained his manipulations at which point you realized he was left with no choice.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Yes, interesting to be able to learn about narcissism on this site, then watch tv / films and to be able to ‘see’ behaviours visually. You have given a good description on the character played by Matt Damon.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, AspEmp. It was a film that fascinated me from the first time I saw it.

          3. Another Cat says:

            LET, Asp Emp

            I nowadays believe all copycats have NPD. Copycats is a creepy creepy trait. Once I saw a twitteraccount almost exactly like HG’s.

            ‘KTNHGTudor’. I realized after a while that this was not it. Thought to myself “A real narcissist will put his own name first:

            “HGTudorKTN” ” A hallmark for observant readers, I guess.

            Then reflecting that the copyperson is of course also a narc… 🤔

            Still can’t get my head around copying, like Mr Ripley. Don’t narcissists have pride?

          4. A Victor says:

            AC, I didn’t realize a narcissist would put his name first, that makes good sense. Interesting.

        2. A Victor says:

          I hated The Talented Mr Ripley, he was so odd and I didn’t know why. I will watch it again with narcissism/psychopathy in mind, it will likely be informative and interesting now.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’d say you’d get a lot more out of it now, AV, with the knowledge you have in hand. I always felt for Matt Damon’s character, even though he became murderous in order to maintain his facade. I just knew that he was lacking in some manner which he was unable to overcome. And that made me sad. That he couldn’t just be himself and think that was enough. Also the way he was despised by those who considered him to be beneath them or were suspicious of him. Rightly so, I might add. Some of the manipulations were quite creepy. And I’ve had the experience of seeing through a narcissist where others could not. That sense of discomfort and a growing awareness something is not right, but the narcissist is adept at pulling the wool over others eyes so they can’t see what you see. Gwyneth Paltrow in her character as Dickie’s girlfriend becomes highly suspicious and is unable to convince even Dickie’s father that Matt Damon is not who he says he is. He has the father convinced. I did wonder at the end how he was going to worm his way out of his final kill in the movie. Apparently the movie is based on a novel and there are four subsequent novels. Which means he was able to continue with his manipulations for some time.
            Could be a good read at some point.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Yes, I think you will think differently about quite a bit of what you see in actors / people on screen. Should be interesting…..

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ooh, I have to add some more here.

            Matt Damon’s character in “The Departed”. Definitely a narc. He’s actually quite good at playing these characters. I don’t know if he is a narc in real life.

            President Snow and President Alma Coin in the “Hunger Games”. Both narcs.

            Scarlett O’Hara in “Gone With the Wind”. Rhett is an empath high on narc traits.

          4. A Victor says:

            I also hated Gone With the Wind and The Hunger Games, maybe I just don’t like watching narcissists at work! Because of a purchase made here, I do know about Matt Damon. It will make for very interesting viewing.

            I am struggling a bit, just a bit, after learning that the summer narc’s dad passed away last week. But, I watched A Fall From Grace last night after seeing it on a different thread. It has made me wonder about ever becoming romantically involved again! Shocking and horrifying what happened to the woman in that film and yet I can see where it could be so easily done, after how easily I was sucked into the relationship with the summer narc. Really gives one pause.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            LOL to you hating GWTW and Hunger Games, AV. I’m not a lover of GWTW, but can appreciate narcissism much better now in the context of that movie. Well, you know about me and HG (Hunger Games) 🙂 Initially, I didn’t get it either, and did not like the concept of the story. It is brutal, but the connection I made to it ran much deeper than those things. And the recognition of narcissism is what made it stand out to me. There are so many reasons why we connect and don’t connect to different movies and characters.

            And I agree with you on the other movie you mentioned “Fall From Grace”. It truly is shocking, and disturbing, and distressing. It gives a lot of pause for thought, as did “Dirty John” on Netflix. For me it’s that sense of being on the outside looking in but at the same time feeling like I am enduring what the victim of the narcissist is going through. It’s good to note some of these for reference when we are feeling down about the narc or tempted. They are a clarion wake up call as to what can happen, and an opportunity to thank our lucky stars for our escape.

  10. Movie Review and Film News says:

    I counted. One of them laughed at one sight gag by himself

  11. wildviolet22 says:

    Billy from Stranger Things, I believe, has traits of a Lesser. Funny, I remember guys like this from when I was growing up, and had zero interest in that type (metal hair band, burn out, dick-ish), I was more into the alternative, and/ or long haired pony tail, sensitive guys (ha). But the actor who plays him completely nails the characteristics of that type of guy from that time period; he did a great job with that.

  12. Whitney says:

    HG the God
    I rewatched Breaking Bad recently and I was thinking about you.
    Heisenberg is a narcissist haha. I thought he cared about Jesse, and that’s why he kept with him, without really needing him. But now I see, Jesse is a Geyser Empath and that’s why Heisenberg doesn’t let him go.

    I was listening to Eminem. I think he portrays a Lesser Narc. A lot of rap lyrics do 😆

    I’ve been listening to Lauryn Hill one of my favorites. I can relate to her songs, mostly about love. I think she’s a Geyser Empath.

  13. wildviolet22 says:

    A Fall From Grace, on Netflix, shows the love bombing and mirroring during the golden period, and a very harsh flip into devaluation..

    1. Kim e says:

      wikdviolet22. Started watching Fall from Grace and knew exactly where it was going. Turned it off and will not finish watching

    2. Caroline-is-fine says:

      Thanks, Violet–it’s on my list!

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      That was an extremely difficult movie to watch, and an excellent portrayal. It made me sick to my stomach what that woman endured. And also the fact women in that situation are still forced to face the consequences of their totally understandable actions in response to the narc. Where is the justice?

      A number of great twists in that film.

  14. Renarde says:


    Correct. It’s only until fairly recently that I started to remember how many times I’d tried to run away as a small child. 5/6 ish.

    Or I’d pray to Jesus that my real parents would find me.

    I had deeply buried these memories. When I re-rembeted them I was a whomping adult.

    To this day, I do not know how mum stood back and allowed PN to do what he did to my brother and I. She absolutely did not care. But pretended she did. She allowed her own children to be abused.

    When behaviour was called, she said I’d accused PN of sexually abusing me. He did not. And I’d never say that because it’s not true. Shes done it a few times now. Each time I have patientally explained; he did abuse us but not sexually. He never touched me.

    She has said this because he has put that thought in her undeveloped brain. Another reason why Ren is bad. She lies. Amazing how quickly she backs down when confronted though.

    The love of Mammon with these types trumps all.

  15. Whitney says:

    I think he is Witch!
    Many psychologists are.

  16. Renarde says:


    You make very good points on the dynamic.

  17. WhoCares says:

    Witch – I have always thought Dr. Phil is a narcissist…and not because I do not like him.

  18. Witch says:

    I’m listening to psychologist on YT criticise DR Phil and now I’m thinking DR Phil is a narc

    1. K says:

      I strongly suspect that Dr. Phil is a narcissist and his father was a bad alcoholic.

      1. Witch says:

        The psychologist kept referring to his behaviour as “poor judgment” but the examples he gave were actually examples of narcissistic traits

        1. K says:

          Psychologist’s routinely gloss over and euphemize abusive behaviour/NPD and it’s very, very frustrating.

  19. ANM says:

    Mcthriver, agreed!!!!

  20. mcthriver says:

    John Michael Meehan in the Netflix real-life drama Dirty John. (There is also a follow up documentary about his life).

    Perhaps the most chilling moment (for me, at least) in this series was when his wife Debra, having left him, asked him if half her wealth would be enough make him go away.

    He said “No”.

    She then asked him what it was he really wanted/needed. What would be enough?

    His answer was – “I don’t know …. Something.”

    From personal experience, the narcissist’s projecting of their not knowing themselves what it is they need/want in life on to their intimate partner causes he most confusing and disorientating aspect of the relationship for the IPPS very early on, which persists and becomes amplified through the years.

  21. wildviolet22 says:

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie, so the characters and their behaviors aren’t fresh in my mind. What helps me in general, is to look for the 3 Es- lack of empathy, exploitation, and entitlement, and is that person like that across the board (not just a one time, or once in a while, thing). This website, and how Tudor catagorizes it further in terms of schools and cadres, has helped me a lot, because the info outside of here has been so-so for me (a victim narcissist is one that I recently got stumped on/ sucked into, and how this type is explained here really cleared things up for me).

    But going by memory of that movie, I thought his character was stuck on the gf from the past and his feelings (if you are familiar with Myers Briggs and the “functions”, it’s the introverted feeling function, where if this is a dominant function for a person, and they aren’t doing well, they start to “loop”, and a person gets sucked into a spiral of “my feelings, my feelings, my feelings…”, at the exclusion of everything else), but I’m not sure if I recall him seeming like a narcissist or lacking empathy outright. I’d have to go back and watch it again with a fresh set of eyes, since I’m getting some great info and a more in depth take on it here..

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      I do know about Myers-Briggs, so I understand what you mean, in the way you related that. If you want to re-watch “45 Years” sometime & analyze it, I’m fully game. 🙂

      What say you, MP? Do you want to put “45 Years” on your movie list too?😎

      1. MommyPino says:

        Sounds good Caroline is Fine. If I find it I will join in. 😊

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Excellent🤸‍♀️ I need to re-watch “45 Years” before then too…and I wanted to apologize to you~after going in my saved post folder, I found some movie posts from you that I didn’t reply back to…so sorry – my 2 jobs overlap at certain times of the year, & I’m a little all over the place then, but I really should have checked my “saved” folder sooner😌…speaking of all over the place, I need to leave again this Wednesday on another work trip, so I shall say absolutely nothing new on here & answer your posts while on this trip, so I can catch up (I hate not staying on top of things)…like I will say nothing else! I mean, after I reply to any other current posts on here to me. THEN it’s “mums the word.” Really, I swear🤐…total silence until I’m caught up!<Is she still gabbing through that zipper?

  22. wildviolet22 says:

    Oh yes, I saw 45 Years, and I know what you mean. Not a Hollywood Blockbuster type of a storyline at all. I oftentimes find myself drawn to movies like that too.

    Blue Valentine was on Sheri Schreiber’s list of movies who have characters with BPD, which is how I ended up watching it, although I can see now where his character probably had traits of a Lesser, as defined here, as well. After I saw that, I checked out Ryan Gosling in a few other movies, and found that he does in fact play the unstable type of guy very well (which I personally am all too familiar with as well).


    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      I’m sorry you’re familiar too…it’s a real treat, eh?🤨 I’m so glad you saw “45 Years,” because I have a question for you. 🙂In “45 Years,” the female lead reminded me of a certain empath, which I can see how those traits would contribute to her pain, in how she handled things…and I (more or less) think of the lead male as a “normal” — in his case, a sometimes clueless, insensitive normal, with a smattering of both narcissistic and empathic traits. Do you see him (his traits/behaviors) as type of narcissist instead? I’m asking because I think MP (on this thread) would find this movie interesting as well…in a way, I see it as worthwhile to discuss on here anyway, as there was so much underlying/hidden emotional pain.

  23. Violetta says:


    Losing parents when the relationship was deeply flawed can be more painful than losing parents when the relationship was essentially good. People have to admit, at long last, that they’ll never be able to fix it. They might have known logically for years there was nothing they could do, but there’s that lost child in all of us, holding out that hope that there’s a magic formula to make it right. People with good family histories only mourn for what they had; the rest of us mourn twice, because we also mourn what we never had.

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      There IS a child in all of us!🤸‍♀️🤸‍♂️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♂️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♂️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♂️

      (Sorry…mine comes out to play fairly regularly.🙄)

      1. MommyPino says:

        Haha mine too Caroline is Fine. I could be catching up for all of the lost childhood fun or maybe I’m just naturally childish 😝.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          I ❤your joyful, child-like nature, MP~and it brings mine out more🤸‍♀️ <We know, we know – sheesh, take it down a notch.🙄

          1. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is Fine,
            Take it down a notch? Haha never!!

            Your nex sounds attractive if he presents like Gabriel but he just presents like Gabriel, not really like one. I am attracted to that kind of looks too, the very manly man. On a different thread they are just talking about how it empath or normal men may not be attractive but look at how attractive Gabriel is. Although even Gabriel had to wear on our SE Batsheba as well because he isn’t as shiny as the soldier narcissist. I think it is different for each person though. My Normal husband has a tendency to stand out although it’s also because he’s tall. 🤔

            I will miss you but I totally understand. I promise to stay out of trouble while you’re gone. That should give me time to catch up on watching the movies too! Take care on your travels and don’t forget to have fun!!! 😘💕💕

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            What a very gorgeous couple you make, MP❣😘🤗 And you’re adorable! – you look as sweet as you truly are.🥰 Now take that down before someone starts stalking *you* — I can scarcely keep up with my own personal stalker, and my hair may start falling out in clumps, if anyone creeps on you too😬 I really should stop using that awful word (stalker). It’s more like he’s spying. Yeah, I’ll switch to that. It makes me feel more empowered, and he’s not reached a crazy stalking level. I cannot believe his 2 appearances made me start thinking he’d mess with my mail (I was laughing to myself about that today). He doesn’t want my stupid mail! The cousin said he’s stuck on us being back together, in a committed “relationship” – and believes it will happen, in time. Actually, go ahead & take my mail!😂

            I’ll be back online for sure next week, but I really hope to be able to post while we’re away…this is an odd stretch of travel, where weather may come to play though, so it just depends on how much laid back extra time we get.

            Yes, you are right…my nex is not a true Gabriel…but it’s a little unfair to womankind out there that he looks like he does/charms in such a cool, manly way. False advertising!🤨

            Love, love, love the gorgeous pic❣🤸‍♀️

          3. MommyPino says:

            hahaha ok I took it down. Thank you for the compliments, I just wanted to show my Normal husband for a little bit and show how sweet he is. But it didn’t seem right to put his face there without me with him lol.

            “ The cousin said he’s stuck on us being back together, in a committed “relationship” – and believes it will happen, in time. Actually, go ahead & take my mail!” You’re too funny Caroline is Fine! 😂. That’s magical thinking on his part thinking you will get back together and emotional thinking on your part about him stealing your mail. ☺️ But I totally understand because I can have worse emotional thinking at times. 😜

            I will look forward to reading from you next week. Take care and always stay safe😘😘😘!!

          4. Caroline-is-fine says:

            There’s no doubt in my mind that you would know if your husband was a narcissist, for several logical reasons. He seems kind & also protective, in the best way.❤
            *Is* that my ET — about my mail? I’m totally open to that – I just wasn’t sure how it was…my thinking was if he ends up very angry (rejection), he may take my mail & mess with things like bills, etc…but he’s never done anything like that with me (he’s said things that make me think he’s done some dirty financial deeds with his ex-wife though). What next will you wonder, Caroline? If he’ll break into your house & mix laxative into your leftover spaghetti sauce?😏 I think part of why I was thinking about such nonsense with the mail is because there are times (like his house spying) that really remind me of male high school hijinks. I never saw anything like this from him in the 3-year FR, so it’s weird to me, especially with his professional life & how he carries himself. It can still blow my mind away, even after all I know about narcissism. I agree with you, on his magical thinking. I also very much get a “this is my woman” ownership vibe (his cousin expressed that too), and I admit that aspect is unnerving. It may be why I started getting anxious – but I feel so much better now, so thanks for helping me hit the pause button & reflect. 🥰I have a reprieve from anything for several months now, so I feel much better about that too.

            We’re on the road for part of today, and they’re making me watch “The Shallows” now…it’s a shark story/survival plot, and I swim a lot😬.. Spoiler alert: the shark is the narcissist. 😏I’ll let you know if it’s good. It may be one your husband would enjoy watching with you. Oh, miscellaneous question: If my nex’s narciness/attitude gives me a distinct feeling of a teen (16 really comes to mind), do you think it’s possible that’s when his narcissism set in/a final trauma? Maybe an argument can be made they all seem like 16-year-olds.🙃 No matter what, it still all seems so sad to me.

            I hope to get to your old posts!

    2. MommyPino says:

      Thank you Violetta. You have said it really well.

  24. wildviolet22 says:

    Hope you enjoy them too, if you get a chance to watch them. Ryan Gosling was also good in A Place Beyond The Pines & Blue Valentine. I think he plays good “troubled” guy characters.

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      His characters should remind me of my nex then, lol. I’m sure those are movies I’d enjoy~thank you! I’m checking out the “Pines” for sure. I’ll sometimes choose a movie just for the cool/mysterious title. Of course, that’s sometimes led to disappointment. I once dated a lit professor (non-narc) who was an area movie critic, and he was always telling me I’m going to miss out on a lot of great movies, with my title bias. (Fine, but it doesn’t have to be a fabulous, poetic title — maybe just a snappy/interesting title, please? You go to all the trouble of making a movie and then seemingly phone in the title? 😑) I often like the slow-paced, thoughtful movies (sometimes independent films) that really make you reflect, but many of my friends get bored with those. Not long ago, I saw “45 Years” and was glued to it the entire time — whereas one of my girlfriends could hardly sit through it. I though that movie was fantastic – a movie that builds into maximum emotional impact. It made me think about it for weeks.

    2. MommyPino says:

      Caroline is Fine and Wildviolet, I had Cate B’s character in Blue Jasmine pegged as an Middle Mid-Ranger. I can’t decide what her cadre is. Her character was very much like my half sister and my half sister I think was an Elite Middle Mid-Ranger. But my sister being Elite had much more Somatic traits than Jasmine. Maybe Jasmine is a Cerebral? That movie was so hard for me to watch because she was very much like my sister in terms of mannerisms and degree of destructive behaviors.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        Interesting…It goes on my list✅ But I get how you feel, MP. I’ve actually been reminded of my narc during our last movie…during Golden, he presents like Gabriel (so you can understand what a mind trip the FR was)…and his type of look is even the same. I was able to look at it objectively, but it’s not like I’d want to see some of those movie scenes over and over. Too much can be too much, making us feel sad, in several ways.❤ So I don’t want to discuss this movie on here either, MP, as that’s not good for you, but I will watch it – maybe even on my trip. Thank you both.🙂

  25. wildviolet22 says:

    Has anyone mentioned some of Ryan Gosling’s movies yet? His character, based on Robert Durst, in All Good Things, was a good one.

    Cate Blanchett’s character in Blue Jasmine..

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      I’ve not seen anyone mentioned those movies. I’ll look into them sometime – thanks.

  26. Whitney says:

    HG I just watched ‘Catch Me If You Can’, about a con-artist. It was really good. He jumps into different roles, it reminded me of the one who choked me. Pretending to be various roles, all about appearances and nothing about merit. A phony and a fake. It’s based on a true story HG. You’ve probably seen it but if not you should 💙

    1. MommyPino says:

      Hi Whitney, I loved that movie. Such an interesting character and obviously a narcissist. I bet he was a Greater or an Upper MR.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        I liked that movie too, MP & Whitney😎 I agree with your narc assessment, MP. 😊

  27. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Match Point. I just revisited it and I wish I hadn’t.

  28. mommypino says:

    Far From the Madding Crowd

    Hi Caroline is fine!

    My guess is that Batsheba Everdene is a Carrier Super Empath.
    Gabriel Oak is a Standard Carrier Empath.
    Sergeant Frank Troy is a Middle Mid-Range Narcissist.
    William Boldwood is an Upper Mid-Range Narcissist.

    How did I do Caroline? 😝

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      I could NOT wait to see your results (I’ve been up half the night with a sick kitty, so I altered my work schedule)…we are SO close. I completely agree on the first two. I do think Batsheba Everdene also has some Magnet in her. Now the last two…I really want to discuss!

      Oh, and I so ❤Gabriel❣

      Off to work I go…more later🙂

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        I’m back!🤸‍♀️

        Ok, I’ll start with the soldier first…

        I’m super interested on why you peg him as MMR. I can definitely see aspects of the pity party/whine fest in him at times, especially with how he became obsessive on his “first, one true love/whoa is me for losing her,” and he for sure lacked self-awareness because of his inability to see his self-sabotaging ways, so he was certainly no Greater (and for me, no UMR, for very similar reasons)…

        I thought of him as an Upper Lesser by the end of the movie, as I was swayed by his nasty, verbal assaults toward our SE & his underlying threat of violence toward her, as he got so totally & foolishly out of control in fury, like when he came back that very last time, with the scene outdoors with her. He was an interesting character to me, as in the beginning of the movie, I thought he’d be a serious player and real (capable) charmer, like with that first scene in the woods with her – how there was all that sexual tension and an air of seductive danger to him, with how he dominated her with his knives/sword – both scaring her some and exciting her, and with him taking it only so far, so he seemed to have a sense of self-control, of knowing how far and when to pull back…so at first, I was thinking he was going to end up being an UMR, because they can have that enticing danger to them, like “cat and mouse” seduction, pacing it out, well-prepared but bold…but the soldier ended up being so reckless, openly belligerent and crudely threatening to our SE (goodbye self-control and pacing of his actions on anything!) – that I way downgraded him to Upper Lesser. He was just too out of control (in foolhardy ways), that I felt like a Midranger would have pulled back from most of that, especially if given time & space, which he had. He was so self-sabotaging, and even his revenge “plan” was no real plan at all – he just seemed lost in his own recklessness. I mean, look how he ended up, lol! (I’m trying not to ruin the movie for those who may read this). Also, the charm offensive I thought he would have was something he just couldn’t seem to sustain at all; in fact, that scene in the woods was about it, if I remember right. So for me, he was like a slow, imploding disaster waiting to happen.

        I’m totally open to being convinced he’s a Midranger though…I know you understand how Lessers operate much better. I don’t think I have *any* personal experience with Lessers!🤔

        1. MommyPino says:

          Hi Caroline is fine,

          I want to write a separate comment on Boldwood tomorrow but I want to focus on the soldier for now.

          What made me think that he’s a MMR is because when he was asking money from Batsheba (to give to Fanny), she said no to him and his way to control the situation was to leave which is a MR move. If he was a Lesser I would expect him to yell and throw or break stuff to scare her and even physically hurt her and not stop until she gives him the money. Another thing that made me think he is a MR is when he disappeared after Fanny died which I think is another MR move. He is definitely not an UMR because of his lack of sophistication. He is not an Upper Lesser because I thought that he was too lazy to be one. I believe that Upper Lessers are not as lazy as the lower echelon Mid Rangers. Upper Lessers can actually be very energetic and they can be like an overwhelming angel asserting themselves where they do not really belong. That soldier reminded me of my MMR sister who was proud to live off of the unemployment benefits from being fired and she used to brag in a haughty way that they were so stupid to fire her and she still came out on top because her unemployment was basically paying her to sit on her butt and watch movies all day. When he told Batsheba that she had the most beautiful face he has ever seen that night when he was giving her the stare with the lamp right on her face (lack of boundary and objectification) I thought that that ridiculous flattery and also other instances that he used flowery words is definitely a Middle Mid-Range and not a Lower Mid-Range. I believe that male narcissists are more physical and brute than female narcissists so even male Mid-Rangers can potentially be violent but I think what makes them MR and not Lessers is the heavier reliance on various silent treatments instead of tirades or physical harm.

          I don’t think I have seen you lately on Narcsite. I hope that you are ok Caroline is fine. Hoping you had a great weekend! 💕

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, sweet MP❤ I’m doing great~I’ll be back after the holidays (in 2020). I’m saving your very interesting messages, to reply to later…I love all your insights❣
            Have a most beautiful Christmas 🎄, & I’m wishing you continued blessings & abundance in 2020🎉

          2. MommyPino says:

            Aww I’m going to miss you but next year is not that far away. I hope that you have the most lovely and blessed Christmas and New Year celebrations. I wish you all the best for the next year. Take care and I’m looking forward to your comments. I will write my comment regarding Boldwood tonight but you can just save it for next year as well. 😘🎄💞

          3. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline,

            About Boldwood, I think that you are right about him not being a narcissist. I thought that his behaviors were not normal and I couldn’t think of a disorder other than narcissism to diagnose him with. My only basis was that he objectified her when he told her that it doesn’t matter if she didn’t have desire or passion towards him and that it’s ok if she will just marry him for convenience. So I did more research and found about Obsessive Love Disorder:

            I didn’t see haughtiness, superiority or contempt from Boldwood that is usually present in narcissists. Boldwood also seemed very honorable and decent. The only abnormal thing was his obsession with her where he actually purchased gowns and jewelry for her in his house before she even agreed to marry him which I thought was creepy. So he is probably a Normal who experienced OLD towards Batsheba.

            “Obsessive love disorder” (OLD) refers to a condition where you become obsessed with one person you think you may be in love with. You might feel the need to protect your loved one obsessively, or even become controlling of them as if they were a possession.

            “ Symptoms of OLD may include:

            an overwhelming attraction to one person
            obsessive thoughts about the person
            feeling the need to “protect” the person you’re in love with
            possessive thoughts and actions
            extreme jealousy over other interpersonal interactions
            low self-esteem
            People who have OLD may also not take rejection easily. In some cases, the symptoms could worsen at the end of a relationship or if the other person rejects you. ”

            Lots of love to you on the holidays Caroline is fine. I hope that you enjoy everyone’s company and feel the love from everyone that you care about. ❤️🎄😘

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You may well have failed to identify the haughtiness, superiority and/or contempt or it did not manifest as it is not always evident with certain narcissists, take for example a Victim MMR Narcissist.
            Do not place any credence in OLD. It is a load of old rubbish.

          5. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Respectfully, I’d like to be able to go back and forth with MP on the films we see without you giving your insight/knowledge right away, as it gives us a chance to hash it out, which allows us the freedom to think for ourselves/apply what we’ve learned — and perhaps, gain more in the back-and-forth process. If after all that hashing, you wanted to correct what you see as errors in our thinking, I’d find that beneficial.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome to advance your views CIF. Whether I have time to correct erroneous observations and/or praise accurate ones, remains to be seen.

          7. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I find your response interesting…given my assertive yet respectful request, I wondered if/how you would retain control while also not diminishing me. It’s a really good example of how a Greater would handle the Caroline Empath (& associated factors). Maybe, just maybe, you *are* an Ultra.

            Merry Christmas! 🎁

          8. HG Tudor says:


            Bah. Humbug.

          9. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ok, you *are* an Ultra. 🎁

          10. HG Tudor says:

            I know.

            Took you long enough.

          11. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yeah, well…I was taking the scenic route. Holy Holly Berries! You’ve decorated the screen for Christmas…I like what you’ve done with the place.🙂

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Merry Christmas, ya filthy animal!

          13. Caroline-is-merry says:


          14. MommyPino says:

            Happy New Year Caroline is Fine!! I wish you many blessings for 2020!!

            About the film, yes I totally agree with you that Gabriel was manipulated. And I bet that Gabriel has some martyr cadre in him as well as he was willing to give up his very heart’s desire like you said for what he thought would be the best for everybody (but him). I have always had some inclination and have done similar things ever since my childhood and HG said that I have a small martyr cadre in me. And I agree with him that it is small but it is there. 😜

            I think Caroline, you picked a wonderful film to analyze as it seems that the way Boldwood’s MR behaviors were depicted in this movie is very close to how deceiving they are in real life. I felt that Boldwood offered Gabriel the job to have more control over him and the situation of having Gabriel as a competitive against Batsheba. Boldwood knew that Batsheba respected and trusted Gabriel and so he did his pity play to Gabriel that morning after the storm and wedding night. When Gabriel was hurting to see Boldwood ad Batsheba sing together you can feel his pain watching them then looking down then watching them again trying to appear normal (because he didn’t want people to notice that he was hurting and he didn’t want to make a fuss).

            Batsheba rejecting Boldwood’s proposal must have been a challenge fuel for him and so he became obsessed with having her no matter what as he couldn’t cope with the lack of control from being rejected and not wanted by her. I had a hard time accepting that his obsession was normal but I didn’t see malice in him so I struggled with identifying him as a narcissist without hesitation. But now I see the amazing desire for him to control and also him showing to Gabriel the ring that he got for Batsheba and his planned proposal and then him telling Gabriel that she will accept his proposal like there is no other right answer is very manipulative and controlling and almost reminded me of former frenemies who compete by killing your desire for something by telling you how much they want it and almost making you feel guilty for wanting the same thing. So I con therefore conclude that Boldwood is a Victim MMR frenemy of Gabriel lol.

            And yes, Gabriel is delicious but I’m not allowed to entertain unwholesome thoughts about him as I am already married lol.

          15. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Happy Early New Year, MP❣ I got up super early today (4 a.m.), as one of my careers calls (which I’d love to say what it actually is, because I’d have such fun discussing both with you, but both of them are too defining, sigh…oh well🤐).

            First off, about the martyr off-shoot with Empaths…I’d like to read more about that. It seems like a lot of empaths would have some of that in them, as many of us tend to act more for others, putting ourselves last at times, so maybe I see it as more of an unselfish trait — if not taken to an extreme. I see myself that way in circumstances as well, so maybe we can look at it as a noble or good quality to an *extent*…but one that needs to be watched at times, as self-care & self-respect is a mighty important aspect too — so we don’t want it to become something that’s betraying ourselves…well, “betraying” is too strong of a word, but you probably know what I mean. For me, I maybe can think of it in a practical way to watch the perspective on it, like: “apply your own oxygen mask first, before you can help another.” In other words, we need to be strong within ourselves and take good care of ourselves, so that we don’t become depleted or ill-equipped — because we cannot even be good/helpful from a place of strength FOR others — if we haven’t empowered (or replenished) ourselves.

            Back to Boldwood…I agree with all your examples, which were great…and I know it’s just a film, but it helped me to contrast my nex with Boldwood, to *see* Boldwood as an MMR-victim, because even though my nex has pulled the illness card a few times, he’s persona and direct/charmer ways are so opposite of Boldwood that it helped clarify it more for me…Boldwood (despite that name) is muted down and seems so harmless…and he’s passive aggressive — yes, I see it. My nex is calm/cool in manner like sunshiny Gabriel, in one sense (like Golden times), but he’s also domineering & aggressive, on the flip. Anyway, Boldwood came off as a pitying character, like you felt sorry for him without really knowing why! That should have been a tip-off for me. It’s fairly subtle, how he works people and their emotions, but he seemed weak/like someone to be helped. Even though he’s portrayed as a boss, he doesn’t come off as powerful. I think he threw me off because I know a few autistic people very well, and he seemed to have some autistic traits, like black-and-white thinking — getting real stuck (like on our SE). So I chalked the other aspects (his interactions) into that autistic element, and once I did that, I stopped looking at him as a potential narcissist.

            Shoot, I lost this twice, so am sending before it happens again! Before I scurry off, it’s so great to “see” ya, MP.❤ I hope your Christmas was wonderful~mine was…I can’t believe it’s almost 2020. I look forward to more convos with you, on this film (maybe others too) & other stuff.🤍

            P.S. Do you know if HG wrote specifics on the martyr or contagion? I can’t find either specifically, but maybe he wrapped info on both of those into other articles.

          16. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline💞. I would love to know more about you but I totally agree that with the caliber and tenacity of the narcissist you got entangled with it’s so much better to be cautious.
            I should probably be more cautious with info about me too.

            I agree with you that the martyr is most likely present in most empaths. But I believe not all. I haven’t found material on it yet but HG said that information on it can be found in Chained. I have seen several commenters here mention that they have the martyr in their cadres as well. For me it’s the smallest percentage and it’s a really small amount that I can’t remember at the top of my head. I asked HG if the martyr cadre is the same as the martyr or victim mentality and he said no. It rarely manifests in me but one example I can remember at this moment was when my dad was dying he had put in his estate that I am entitled to equal portions as all of my half siblings. My EMR half sister protested and her last request to him was to put in his will to disqualify me from everything that their mother owned. My dad was stubborn (he may have been an SE Savior/Magnet) and made clear to all of us that I am entitled to take anything that I want as long the total is it is equal in value to theirs. He said that it is impractical to write on the will what she wanted. My normal (but empathic) half brother was the executor and told me that I can take whatever I wanted because it’s just stuff so he said don’t worry about our sister. My martyr trait(I think 🤔) manifested in that I made a pact with my sister that I will not take anything that belonged to their mom out of respect for them since I am our dad’s secret love child and I was aiming for healing for her mostly. So I told her that I will ask her before I claim an item if that item belonged to her mom. Well, it backfired on me because everything that had value or beautiful she said belonged to their mom. And she even provoked many times by saying that she’s not really sure but because it’s beautiful and their mom had great taste then it probably belonged to her with a smirk of superiority and even told me that I can take that tin candle holder instead (that looked like a craft item from Michael’s). Needless to say since the martyr in me was so small, I reneged my promise and did my revenge by emailing my brother and claiming several valuable items that I knew belonged to their mom. And he immediately gave them to me and he never brought that issue back to me again. It wasn’t my proud moment but I’m glad that my brother doesn’t seem to care. I didn’t keep them by the way. I sold them for a lower value. It was just my way of standing up for myself. I think that is how the martyr cadre manifests. It is something that empaths do because they believe that they are suspending the desire of their hearts for something that is more important. And I agree with you, my guess too is that majority if empaths have that. Anyway, I mentioned my brother, I can easily write a novel about how wonderful him and his wife are but I have to control myself lol. Enough about me lol.

            I totally agree with what you said that we have to empower ourselves and replenish first in order to help others. I have mentioned to Getting There that I will be doing a lot of self improvement stuff this 2020. I will make a decision if I want to get an accounting related part time job or stay at home full time and get my CPA. The salary, health care and retirement benefits of having a job even if it’s part time is really attractive though. But I have to make a decision that I will never regret because I have given it a lot of thought. And you are one of my inspirations because you are obviously successful and happy in what you do and Getting There is my inspiration too so I want to get to that point where I am feeling more capable to help people without having to ask my husband and to have more people depend on what I contribute like in a company.

            I think the difference in the personas of your NEx and Boldwood could be the difference in their schools. If Boldwood is a Medium Mid-Range then he is definitely more helpless in his persona than an upper echelon one like an Upper MR or a Greater or even an Upper Lesser. I have two half sisters and the older is a total bitch (Upper Lesser) while the younger one who was a Middle Mid-Range was the helpless one even though she wasn’t a victim cadre. I think the upper echelon narcissists are the bad ass kinds.

            I agree that Boldwood got muted ever since she rejected his first proposal. He could also have been experiencing a reality gap.

            I am so happy to read from you again and I am looking forward to more conversations with you about anything!!! 😘😘😘❤️

          17. mommypino says:

            Hi Caroline is Fine💞. I just want to say that I have a long comment awaiting moderation and it’s probably long winded and just a lot of rambling anyway so it can wait lol. Just want to say one last Happy New Year to you and that it’s so wonderful to read from you again!!! I’m very glad that your Christmas was great and mine was too. All the best for us in 2020!!🥂❤️

          18. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Happy New Year, sweet MP❣🤸‍♀️ I will be back on here next week, but I don’t see your long post, which I know I’ll enjoy~did you save it to possibly resend? I would hate to miss it.
            Abundant blessings wished for you & your family in 2020~love ya❣🤸‍♀️XO

          19. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is super sweet❣️ I will give it a couple of days more and if I don’t see my long comment I will just reply to you again. Sometimes the moderation takes a bunch of days but if it didn’t go through it’s no biggie. I haven’t saved it this time and I honestly don’t remember what I have said. I will just read your comment that I replied to again and reply to it as if I have read it the first time which is not really a big deal and I will probably have my ideas and thoughts more organized than my first comment attempt. Have a wonderful rest of the week and weekend to you. Love you too!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

          20. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ok, sweetheart~I look forward to it…As 2020 has now arrived at our doorstep, I wanted to take a minute to encourage you on your journey. I really sense that you’re coming into this new year in mighty fine shape, with your love, peace and inner strength. 💛I feel led to share a few things with you…

            It’s obvious to me you’re someone who has done a lot of reflecting and inner work, over time…sifting through your past and making sense of your walk. You seek truth, while allowing yourself the freedom to authentically feel what you feel…which has allowed for you to maintain a very kind heart, along with the ability to be healthfully assertive, in refreshingly non-posturing ways. I’m sure you’ve found that when you’re at peace with yourself, the outside environment may still bring stress, yes it sure can – but it can never affect you in quite the same way…you’ve dealt with so much within your original family, but please know that I see it bringing some real positives to your life today, in how you dig deeper (which is strength – to be able to face it & do that) — and in how you are able to center yourself and know your own specialness, with non-attention seeking humility…not expecting yourself to be perfect; and in also humbling yourself to others, when your heart leads you to do so. Life is a complicated juggling act of mind & heart, but I see you maintaining the ability to respect yourself & give yourself love, throughout whatever you face — much as you give your own family members that type of unconditional love.❤

            Because you have dug in and done the inner work, you’ve given yourself priceless gifts, which cannot be taken away from you:
            – the confidence to step up to challenges with a calm that you can face them
            – a decreased need to look to others for approval/reassurance
            – a greater ability to be concerned with doing right, not being right
            – your mood and stability centered more securely inside yourself, not so dependent on circumstance

            Well done, my friend.❤ Catch up with ya next week.

          21. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is Fine, thank you so much for sharing this with me. I am not sure if I deserve all of what you wrote; I know I can be a pain in the butt and I have my bad parts as well. I just know that I am very blessed to have you as my friend here and you have no idea how much you have helped me. You’re always willing to listen and to share yourself. You are so inspiring and there’s a spirit of kindness, innocence, and cheerfulness coming from you whenever you talk all wrapped up in an elegant way. You are simply amazing. I do not wonder for one second why your NEx doesn’t want to give you up and can’t cope with permanently losing you. I am just happy that you spend time with me and you interact with me. At times that I feel like walking on eggshells with the way I interact here, you and Getting There just encourage me by interacting with me without a sliver of judgment or suspicion. I still have a lot of work to do within myself but I have indeed come a long way, thanks to the knowledge from HG’s work. It is still a messy evolution for me but I am very optimistic. 💞💯

          22. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Aw, thank you, darlin’💕 I saw your comment when I came back on my Tablet, as I had a way-too-delayed reply in my draft folder to someone else on another thread, so I was trying to finally send it…but regarding your reply, rest assured we are ALL evolving continually, and life IS messy! I guess if it’s not messy, we’re living in a bubble…which, not gonna lie, I need a bubble at times, as we all probably do. But you do deserve the words I spoke – very much so!

            I apologize for this next evilness, but remember when I told you I went to that “game night” and 80s music was part of it? Ok, so I ventured back there again last night (with my man – not Gabriel, someone else, lol – and with some friends)…and it was 70s music, which was really fun. BUT (oh-my-gawd, help me!), I cannot get this song (below) out of my head. I warn you, if you play it, it may swirl around in your head so much you “knock three times” in random places, like I accidentally did, while holding a little box of cherry tomatoes in the grocery store today (yes, really – I then looked around to see if anyone saw me…a cute, blonde-haired boy did, but he smiled, like I was not at all nutty, so that was good).😬

            (Saw your longer comment – looking forward to reading it & will reply back this week!)

          23. Caroline-is-stuck says:

            P.S. Oops! I screwed up my music link…but it’s Tony Orlando, singing “Knock Three Times”…I’m NEVER gonna get that song out of my head…he loves some girl, an apartment below…wants her to knock 3 times on the ceiling if she wants him…twice on the pipes, if the answer is “no”…😱

          24. MommyPino says:

            Haha hi Caroline is musical 💞. They play that song a lot whenever I shop at Cost Less. They play a lot of upbeat old songs there. I have heard that playing upbeat songs at the stores make customers buy more and be more willing to try out new products. I can understand how it can get stuck in your head. His big voice and inflections and the back up singers do that to me too whenever I shop there. And I sometimes catch myself reacting to it with the way I push my cart too 😂.

            One unrelated trivia about the singer, his other song Tie A Yellow Ribbon actually helped inspire the peaceful People Power Revolution in my home country. People tied yellow ribbons around trees to welcome the arrival of an exiled Senator who became the fiercest critic of our former dictator Marcos (who I believe was a Greater Narcissist) and his infamous shoe loving wife Imelda. When he returned though he was shot dead as he was getting out of the plane. People revolted and placed his widow as the new president. She has lead the amendment of the constitution to prevent another dictator from uprising. She has worn yellow clothing since her husband’s death. The song has also been used by the protesters in Hong Kong since 2014.

            I hope that your week is going wonderful. My daughter caught flu since Sunday so I have been very busy with her and exhausted from our lack of sleep. She is starting to get better now though. 🤞

          25. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP❣🤸‍♀️
            First, I’m so sorry your darling girl has the flu. 😥I pray it’s more of a mild upper respiratory issue than the stomach bug…as it’s so hard to watch wee ones endure the horrid stomach bug variety😫…
            I did know about the song/revolution/assassination, but I did *not* know about his widow wearing only yellow clothing…such sweet dedication. What an intense time that was in your home country’s history~but inspiring too. I’ve always wanted to know more, from your perspective, about your home country…and I’ve always wondered when you left and how that came about…but is that too personal to put on the site? It’s totally okay, if it is.💛

            Yes, the SHOE LADY. 👠I swear that her name is synonymous with a zillion shoes on shelves, for so many worldwide…makes one think a bit carefully on excess or focus, as who wants to be known for shoes?…Well, she may have – who knows, lol.

            I know you’ll take tender care of your daughter, and I hope she is feeling 100% chipper again really soon.🤗 I hope you’re also taking care of yourself, in-between…may you get your restorative sleep, like tonight would be so good❣
            Big hug,

          26. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Sweet Caroline,

            I did get the bug towards the weekend. My son got it too. I want us to get flu shots next year because it has been the third time that we have been sick since Thanksgiving. We did get the flu bug last Thanksgiving week.

            I was in preschool when the People Power happened and it made a big impact on me. Seeing so many people on the streets passionately shouting either Cory or Marcos. There was an election between them prior to the revolt and after the assassination and everyone thought that Cory would win but she lost because he cheated so the revolution happened. That is probably why I am naturally interested in politics. Those images of people holding the rosary and handing out roses to the military who were aiming their guns on them were pretty powerful for me. There was no blood shed unlike many other revolutions. They said that the reason was because Reagan has sent people to negotiate with Marcos because he didn’t want any bloodshed. Reagan didn’t want a chaotic and violent revolution because there was US military presence there and they just didn’t want to get caught up in that situation. Marcos used it as a leverage and promised that he will order troops to hold their fires if Reagan will let his family get out safely. The Marcoses got out safely and moved to Hawaii and they lived comfortably there until Marcos died. That’s one of the reasons I think he was a Greater because he was able to control his fury and negotiate his way out.

          27. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m so sorry you and your son also got sick😥 On the positive side, think how much more you will again appreciate WELLNESS, righto? Funny how that works. It’s similar to a narcissistic entanglement — once you aren’t stuck in it, the flipside is “oh-what-a-feeling”🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️ <way too many Carolines!

            I thought of you today. ❤One of my friends is totally into the zodiacs, and she is always pointing out how all of us (in the friends group) are similar to our zodiacs, but she's always been downright dogmatic about mine..I'm a "Cusper" — on the cusp between two zodiacs (supposedly makes me have traits of both of them – I'm not really into or against zodiacs – I figure God can arrange the world any way he wants!). I have to admit, coincidence or not, it's a little freaky how mine sounds just like me. Anyway, today at lunch, while one of my other friends was saying something about how serious/deep the conversation was that she had with me last night, I did something really free-spirited/child-like and then my zodiac friend said: SEE? That's it, right there! Our Cusper Caroline! She could be in an elegant gown at a fancy dinner, serious & sophisticated – in deep, intellectual conversations all night…then four hours later, be out in the parking lot dripping wet, laughing and having a snowball fight with a bunch of kids. It made me think of you immediately, because of how you described me, which I found sweetly touching. (Um, about that gown…did I ruin it? What style and color was it??😂)

            Anyhow, It got progressively more insane at lunch, where I ended up almost cry-laughing, because everything I said or did, my zodiac friend was shouting out which side of the zodiac it was coming from…she is just crazy funny. I needed it though, as I have been doing very well, but every time I leave or return from my house, I look to see if my nex is there. It's the price I pay for being fully me, but it does add a wee bit of a stress layer. I don't realize it until I find my eyes filling up with tears for no reason, every once in awhile…and I know why. It's because of the uncertainty of what he's doing – it's a little emotionally draining, somewhere inside me. Anyway, he should be gone for a few more months now, so maybe I can stop my hyper-vigilance.

            On a lighter note, I loved all your political reflections. I've got a deep interest in politics too, and I love to analyze the crap out of all things political! I try not to do so out loud much these days, as people can seriously get triggered (like hair on fire 🔥!)…and I'm all about the peace, man….love & peace, man. Lol

            Before I forget…another good movie for us to empath/narc analyze is "The Invisible Woman."😎 Did we finish with analyzing the other one? I need to check my folder of saved posts to see.

            So glad you & your family are feeling better❣

          28. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Sweet Caroline! Yes we totally appreciate wellness more lol. And we will get our flu shots from now on haha.

            I’m happy that what I wrote about you touched you. They are all true. Yes I totally see what she was saying. I don’t find your different traits to be a dichotomy. I think that they all interplay and complement each other. I think that you have a natural balance and harmony that I don’t see any of your traits clash even though some can be contradictory in essence.

            I also enjoy astrology but I don’t believe that it predicts the future. I do think though that there is some truth to the description of the person’s traits and personality based on the zodiac signs but it is far from perfect. My zodiac sign description fits me well and I have observed the same with a lot of people that I know. But I don’t rely on it except for entertainment. I’m a Capricorn and my husband is an Aquarius and we’re supposed to be incompatible but actually we get along well. I personally think there is some merit to astrology because they say that God is a God of order. So I think that there is some merit when we see patterns. And I agree that He can suspend that order or pattern whenever He wants to. I just don’t think that even if there is a pattern in astrology that humans have perfectly figured out how to understand it.

            I’m sorry that your nex is causing you stress. It sucks that he can’t allow you to move on. You deserve to have the freedom to be completely you without having to have someone that is not part of your life anymore still be a part of your thoughts because of his stalking. If you wound him while he is stalking you do you think that he will eventually stop? Like has he seen you with your boyfriend? That would probably wound him. I know when I wounded my sister enough she ended up disowning me forever. Even when she was sick and I asked her if she wants me to help her she didn’t even reply. Maybe you can stage stuff that when he decides to visit you he will see you happy with your boyfriend and then you can casually look on his direction but have no reaction in your face like you didn’t recognize him and then look at your boyfriend with the happiest smile again? It’s probably silly but I’m trying to come up with ideas how to shoo the nex away from bugging you.

            I will try to find the Invisible Woman. I haven’t seen that movie yet. I think that we’re pretty much done with the last movie.

            On a lighter note and slightly related to astrology, Chinese astrology to be more specific, I’m so excited for the Chinese New Year. I have a lot prepared for the kids to do so I really hope that they don’t get sick lol. I will be teaching them about world geography this year and we started with the polar ends of the earth. On Chinese NY I will teach them basics about China. We will be making paper dragon puppets and paper lanterns. I also ordered some Chinese lucky coins and yuan baos from amazon to use for our sensory play and math activities. I got the cheapest globe they sell on Amazon to point out the places we talk about. Right now we are studying the Arctic and the animals that live there. My son already knows which ones live in the North Pole vs the South Pole. I had to lie a little bit to keep them very interested by telling them that both Santa and Kristoff and his reindeer Sven live in the Arctic. They totally believed me especially with how serious I was when I told them about it. It’s so fun to see them so interested with Geography. I remember when my younger stepdaughter was in high school she taught that Africa is a country. She didn’t like me when I corrected her even though I did it nicely. Challenge fuel I guess. 😬

          29. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks so much for your message❤ I’m looking forward to replying back on it. I’m heading to work early, but I was cleaning out a section of my closet last night, and I came upon an old journal. I wrote this poem in it, sometime after I left my nex (can’t recall how long after, but I do remember writing it). I found it interesting to re-read it, as I think it shows an intuitive knowing, without having full knowledge, of what I was dealing with…kind of freaky.😳

            Here it is:


            Walking through the woods – twigs snapping, leaves crackling – I come upon an old, country church…
            paint peeling, wood chipping – it’s hiding something.
            The fragile porch boards creak my arrival,
            Beckoning me inside…
            Slowly turning the oversized, rusty doorknob, I push the heavy door open,
            Transporting myself into another world
            Of comfort, and peace.
            Light streams through the dusty, old windows, onto a dozen wooden pews…
            And I see him.
            A boy sits, so still, his back to me, in the front pew.
            He fled, years ago,
            to this sacred place…
            I can feel his sweetness, his energy, his fire – as his legs ran deeper and deeper into the woods…up to the church, inside, then pushing the door shut – hard.
            Safely inside, he pressed his body against the door.
            He stirs now, in his spot.
            He knows I’m here.
            But who am I, to him?
            And who is he, for me?
            He senses warmth and light has entered in – and folds himself over, gripping his hands under the bottom of the pew.
            I can feel it.
            He won’t let go.
            He has his secrets…he has his way.
            And I’m a secret keeper – granted abundant grace, for the knowing.
            Is he the other side of my coin?
            We’re at a Crossroads…in this sacred church.
            “Stay!” says his heart.
            “Leave!” says his frightened mind.
            What says the soul?
            He’ll remain in the front, if I stay far back.
            But I’m a protector of those in sanctuary – and a free spirit,
            So I quietly back my way to the door, watching him tenderly as I retreat.
            I take something off me and gently lay it down on the well-worn, wooden floor.
            He’ll find it…if he ever leaves this sacred place.

            I’m alone again, making my way out of the woods – sun streaming, bright and full, through the treetops – when an abrupt rush of wild wind flaps over me. It feels like peace that passes understanding.

            The angels have always been here,
            With me.
            The angels have always been there,
            For him…in that sacred place.

          30. MommyPino says:

            That’s really beautiful Caroline is Fine. ❤️

            I think that you did have a strong sense of what he is and what was going on. We all wish that we could save that innocent person from building a prison for themselves. But that prison has also been their very sanctuary. It was a great image of the church which for many is usually a symbol of salvation and for others a symbol of restrain or lack of freedom. What is it really? What is narcissism? To them it is their salvation from the horrible injustice that they were forced to deal with and their only way of surviving. To many who love them like you did when you loved him and like I did with my mom, it felt like a prison in which I wished I could convince her that she can come out with me.

          31. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, dear MP❤ I know you understand that difficult feeling. We really are helpless to help them! It’s the worst feeling. No matter what, we always count on that human connection — like we *can* get through to someone — we just have to find the right words or keep trying. I know back then, I was so confused at to why everything had to be so emotionally wrenching/hard/impossible (yet it never occurred to me, in a real concrete way, that he was actually making it hard – how odd)…and my experience as a girlfriend was for a relatively limited time, whereas yours was for the entire lifetime of your Mom. My heart goes out to you. I imagine you still deal with a lot of mixed feelings. Do you still go through the stages of grief, in-and-out? Grief is not a linear process with non-narcissists, so I imagine it is even more complicated with narcissists. You handled it all as well as could be, and with real dignity. It was brave, how you faced it all. Big hug to you.❤

          32. MommyPino says:

            Thank you so much Caroline ❤️. I honestly don’t know if my kind of grief is anything that most people can relate to. I know that my feelings when she died were a combination of relief that her suffering is over and she is finally at peace and sorrow that we didn’t have a full relationship that I wished we had nor see her have a happy life. I have tried to connect with her countless times in my life in different ways. Some of it were rejected outright while some produced temporary results. There were times in my younger years that I had a great relationship with her and it felt that I have her as the person who will always be there for me in my life but in all of those times I had to change who I am for that bond or great relationship to occur. Even my hugs to her had to be in a submissive body language and it was like hugging a post because she just allowed me to hug her but she never hugged back. It is difficult to lose a mother especially if you are a daughter even if that mother was a narcissist. I don’t care what people say about me but that is the truth. It was also very difficult for a daughter to have the kind of relationship with a mother that I had. But I feel so blessed that God gave me what He knew I needed the most and that is to have my two kids and be the mother to them that I have always wanted to have. And thankfully I was blessed to experience from them the love that I had for my mom as her child. I finally received it back. ❤️

          33. Caroline-is-fine says:


            You: “It is difficult to lose a mother especially if you are a daughter even if that mother was a narcissist. I don’t care what people say about me but that is the truth . It was also very difficult for a daughter to have the kind of relationship with a mother that I had.”

            Absolutely it would be difficult! YOUR feelings of love were a connected, real love. In other words, unconditional. So having a narcissist for a Mom doesn’t lessen any of the pain of loss, as you poured love into a bond on your end…I would think, if anything, it would add a whole other layer of pain to it. She was your Mom, no matter what her issues were, big or small. It is not hard to understand at all…all I have to do is think of my nex dying, and I am right there with you, in understanding the complicated grief. We loved…therefore, the love involved is real. What was given back is a side issue, but there were some concrete (neutral or positive) things that were given, no matter what the reason was on the narcissist’s end. There was lack of the narcissist meeting our emotional needs, and there was damage done…but does that change our real love? No.

            To say it doesn’t/shouldn’t matter so much — to diminish the pain of it — is to negate the Empath.

            I am always here for you, to talk out anything you ever need.💕

          34. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline. ❤️ I know that I can talk to you about anything. I really appreciate all of the times that you have been there for me. ❤️

          35. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Back at ya, MP❤…and do not ever sell yourself short — you are very bright, insightful & so caring. I can always feel your compassionate heart. You’re also genuinely happy for others when they’re doing well, which says, in a nutshell, so much about your character as a friend.

            As for my sensitivity…I am sensitive, in that I pick up on a lot (too much), and I do try to speak in a caring/diplomatic way, so I don’t needless hurt others – but I’m *not* very sensitive, in that I don’t get easily offended. The only sensitivity trigger I really have is if someone’s behavior really reminds me a lot of one of my parents…who does display particularly irksome narcissistic traits.😉 Then my guard is UP!

          36. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I feel the same, about the zodiac. There is no way I’d plan my day/life by horoscopes…can you imagine how that would work with a stalking narcissist in the midst?😮 But it can be fun/entertaining. I like the traits of Capricorn. ❤My oldest brother is one, and we get along like two peas in a pod (Weirdly, we have never had an argument about anything, ever)…and guess what? One of my “cusps” is supposed to get along very well with Capricorns, especially in friendship – like easy, great friends. Even though I giggle at my zodiac friend and don’t put serious stock in it, it *is* a little ironic that a lot of it lines up, for me/those I know well. Oh, wait just a sec…I gotta go check my horoscope, to see if it’s a good day for taking a bike ride in an hour – be right back!…<one of my zodiacs makes me silly – it's not my fault!😭

            Ok, to be serious now, about my stalker (while we're at it, he's a Leo, lol)…You make a good case for wounding, but I've actually been in protective mode regarding my BF (no, my nex hasn't seen him), as in trying to make sure never the two shall meet! Have I mentioned my nex can have a fiery temper? He can. Typical Leo the Lion! (JK – any Leos reading this😉). It's not a fly-off-the-handle, brutal, regular kind of thing (temper)…but there is an element to him, in that way, that makes me nervous. I'm thinking back, of how he was about totally benign things (males in my midst) when I was in the FR…and the problem with whatever he's doing now is I really cannot get a sense for what the point of it really is…as in, is this benign (win me back/will fade with time, with me not reacting) – or could this get real ugly? He *does* have a significant problem with jealousy, and he can plot in that way, believe me…so (depending on the situation), he could hit another male, no question.😬 I mean, some males, you can't see that aspect happening…him, yes – he has/could.

            For now, my gut tells me to try to minimize any chance of him seeing me/anything too personal about my life. TBH, just him seeing ME, my yard & house makes me feel like he knows too much already. I've actually started thinking about my mail, like would he take stuff or mess with it? I really do not know. I don't understand his frame of mind at this particular time…well, or ever, let's be real.

            For now, the feeling I got off him (when he stopped and stared at me) was more of a soft vibe (not that that's good either/no winning here) — but who really knows? Anyway, he's not done anything aggressive or intrusive (unless you count staring) thus far. It's the not knowing what this is (goal)…so it's keeping me inside more now…or thinking about when I go outside.

          37. MommyPino says:

            Hi Sweet Caroline,

            I think that even though it seems like it isn’t serious because he hasn’t done anything violent or malignant to you, it still needs to be addressEd because you don’t have peace of mind. There is an issue if he is causing you to stay more indoors and if you are worried that your mail may not be safe.

            I wonder which parts of your fears are really plausible and which parts are emotional thinking caused by his cryptic appearance to you. I will probably sound like a narc but I understand mind games like that, like what he did to you. I saw my mom did similar stuff like that and I as a young kid have done similar things (because I was learning from my mom and was curious about how it would make people behave). It’s almost like pulling pranks on people. Thankfully I have outgrown that and it is now beneath me to behave like that. I actually think that after having kids I am now at my lowest level of narcissism because now it’s all about them for me. But him staring at you like that may not really mean anything except to find out how it is going to make you react. This is embarrassing to admit but one of my bonding moments with my mom when I was a kid was that she tells me or even makes me watch when she did mind games like that to people and then we laughed at how the other person reacted. Of course these people were smeared to me so at that time I had low empathy for them. But that’s how narcissists are, they want you to keep thinking about them. If you are driving a car and a narcissist you know happens to be walking on the pedestrian side of the road and sees you, he would be giving your car a long glance hoping that you notice him. He’s not thinking oh there’s Caroline, I really like her. He’s thinking in an abstract way I will give her a long glance and hopefully she notices me and wonders if I care about her and also notices the way I walk and that I lost weight etc. It’s all about them. That’s probably why it was easy for me to wound my sister so many times because some of the things she did reminded me of how my mom’s mind worked and so it was an automatic reaction for me to not reward her behaviors by simply not giving her attention or any thought and so my non reactions were totally natural and authentic and she was able to tell. I was not even pretending or acting. I just genuinely lost interest for her for being a very manipulative shallow person.

            I just think that there is no reason why you would have to alter your life because of him. You shouldn’t have to worry about protecting your boyfriend and preventing your nex from seeing him. You shouldn’t worry about your mail or altering the amount of you going outdoors. Maybe you should consult with HG on what he thinks your nex will do so that you can feel more assured? I am not sure but sometimes our empathy makes it hard for us to show them that we really have moved on and they don’t matter to us anymore because we don’t want to hurt them. But as long as we are giving them hints or crumbs that they matter to us, no matter how small, they will take it and hang around and wait to get more crumbs and maybe if they wait long enough they could get the whole bread. Birds (narcs) will leave if you stop giving them crumbs. And crumbs can be your facial expression or even him seeing you change your schedule or way of life after his mind game. I also respectfully suggest that you tell your boyfriend about your nex and your fears and even you protecting him from the narc when you are ready. I think that this will lower your ET and you will feel more secure that you are not alone. When my ET was high and I was even wondering if the handyman could have been a psychopath who could hurt my husband or abduct my kids I fessed up to my husband that the handyman tried to seduce me. It has alleviated a lot of the burden that I was carrying inside and a lot of my fears have started to dissipate.

          38. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you for your insight & wise words…I’m headed out for a work-related project today, but I’m going to re-read your post again tonight & reflect more on it. I appreciate you speaking significant truths on your experience with family members, as well as the sensitive way you addressed me on this. I think you’re exactly right on my peace being unnecessarily diminished, which is why I think I explained all this to you, because I was starting to feel this was getting too inwardly pressured for me, which I had not previously been feeling…

            Peace comes from within – but when outer circumstances begin to threaten it, then a new approach (or going back to old approach) is needed. My BF does know about my nex, but he doesn’t fully understand, which is because I haven’t conveyed all. It’s not for lack of trust per se with him, but I take a long time to fully open up…and I also know there is one thing that he could ask me about/delve into about my nex (the answer) that will make him freaking upset, understandably so. I am also always wanting to handle everything by myself, but it’s not a good way to handle an issue that can affect me (or can potentially affect others)…though my recent anxious thoughts — strictly because my nex showed up — may be unwarranted. I’m going to let my BF in on a little more with this, because if I am feeling I need to “protect” him from this nuttiness, then it’s really not a reasonable plan or healthy mindset at all!

            Thank you, for all your good advice, and I’m encouraged to go back where I started out with this, when I was at peace. If the principles I’ve learned here aren’t enough and/or I can’t maintain my peace or live it fully, then HG is there. Or, um, here. Or he’s somewhere.😉

            I’m left with the thought that if the “simple” starts to become “complicated,” then my strong sense of logic is being tainted. Isn’t there an 80s “Tainted Love” song?🤔

          39. MommyPino says:

            Haha Tainted Love is also a good song to describe how it feels to be entangled with a narcissist. Yes I agree, you have to address your tainted peace. But I am glad that you are very aware of it and it is indeed a wonderful thing to have HG for consultations whenever we have either Tainted Love or Tainted Peace lol. And you can always talk to me about it. Thank you for trusting me. I sometimes worry about saying something insensitive or stupid but thankfully you don’t seem sensitive.

            I found the Invisible Woman and I will watch it this week. It looks like a very interesting movie. I really like your choices and I get to watch movies that are not for kids or action lol.

          40. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m so glad you’re going to watch that one~we’ll have lots to discuss with it🙂…I really have to stop watching these so far ahead of you, so I don’t forget all the key elements in them…or I need to take notes.😏

          41. mommypino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline, I have reread your older comment and I kind of remember now what I wrote.

            Regarding the martyr cadre, HG has told me that it is in the Chained book. I asked him if the martyr cadre is the same as a codependent and he said no. I don’t have a codependent in my schools. I asked him if the martyr cadre is the same as having victim or martyr complex which is basically having victim mentality and he said no.

            I have given it a lot of thought and my guess is that a martyr just like codependents put others above themselves but the reason for doing so is different. Codependents put others before themselves because it helps define them. Martyr cadre puts others before themselves because they believe that it is the right thing or magnanimous thing to do. I believe that I have seen some commenters here reveal that they have martyr in their cadres but I don’t think all of them do. I think that empaths help others and love doing so but the martyr cadre would be the kind of empath who would pay for their siblings to go to college with their hard earned money even though they themselves didn’t go to college but they are just happy at the thought that their siblings will have a bright future and they as a family will be elevated. I have cousins in my home country who are like that. And when they do that, they don’t expect anything from their sibling except for their sibling to do well and work hard in school. These cousins of mine are not codependents and are actually very independent and assertive in a way that their siblings respect them and they are role models for their siblings in many ways. My martyr is only very small so I have never been like my cousins but it does manifest on occasions and when it does the act of sacrifice gives me a high satisfaction unless it was for a narcissist and I realize that I was just taken advantage of. That is my guess regarding the martyr. I hope that I am at least close. I would love to read more about it from HG.

            Boldwood is indeed an interesting character. It was also hard for me to see him as a narcissist because I didn’t recognize malice or contempt but I recognized too much need for control. He was very distinguished, highly revered and strong at first then he kind of got muted down like you said into such a pitiful character. He spiraled down after he was rejected. It was mentioned that he was jilted by a woman years ago and then he never got married. I was wondering if the rejection by Batsheba was a trigger that brought him back to that trauma. I have occasions in my life where an event brings me back emotionally to a past trauma and I spiral into negative thinking and self loathing. But it only lasts for a day or maybe two. I don’t get into an obsession but most importantly I don’t try to control people. From what I have learned from HG where narcissists need control so much, need for control has become a huge red flag of narcissism for me. And we all want to be in control at times whether it’s wanting to have the last word or to correct an inaccurate smearing about you but to actually ‘proactively’ control people who do not provoke is a big red flag for me. Him showing Gabriel the ring that he will give Batsheba was very controlling in my perspective and the way he convinced her in a pushy way to think about his proposal. When he told Gabriel after the wedding night that Batsheba didn’t lie to him etc., it felt like a pity play and trying to look like a martyr because first of all there was no need for him to tell Gabriel that because Gabriel didn’t tell him that he thinks Batsheba lies to him. I keep trying to put myself in Boldwood’s shoes and I can’t think of a way for it to feel authentic to all of a sudden bring it up out of the blue except to put on a show.

            I think I can see what you are saying about your NEx. But HG brought you a good point that Boldwood’s cadre which seems to be a Victim and being a Medium MR have something to do with the way he acts versus an upper echelon narc who usually acts more like a bad ass or more self assured.

          42. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, adorable MP🙌❤
            This was the post I never commented on…I guess we did wrap up most of the characters, but I wanted to comment on this (and please let me know if I missed anything else that you recall). First, I’m so sorry that your past trauma causes you times of negative thinking/self-loathing…I know you’re aware of where that comes from, which is so key. I’m glad it does not happen frequently (and goes away fairly quickly), and you just keep countering those thoughts with Truth, hon. You’re a very dear person & doing mighty well on your path. I see you gaining in your strength & inner peace. ❤🤗 Let me know if you’re ever down & need a friend.❤

            Very good points about the differences in Midrangers. You’re exactly right about the control aspect of people being a huge red flag also. It (a control issue) *can* be a variety of other things (anxiety issues; OCD; non-narcy self-esteem or past trauma issues, etc), but I think the pattern/way of control is so different with narcissists, and we can see that clearly now, for what it likely is, given time to see it play out …and after we realize we were previously in a narcissist entanglement, it’s easier to see their past control issues for what it was — not what we may have thought it was. For example, I could not even detect “control” (as an issue) with my nex for the entire first year…that thought never even came to mind about him (if anything, I thought he was laid back & cool about stuff)…of course, it was Golden time, but the control aspect still was there, but it was super subtle/camouflaged, but things do come to mind now. After the first year, I began to slowly see him as jealous/possessive of me (before then, I saw him as sweetly protective of me & also manly protective of our relationship)…but all that jealousy stuff got much worse & I could eventually see he wanted control. It just took too long to see it that way, for a number of reasons that would take forever to explain on here!

            My tablet signal has been iffy, so I’m sending this out before I lose it. I hope all has been going well with you — so what’s up, chica? How are the kiddos & cutie dog?🤸‍BTW, I saw several movies when away (may mention some later), and it was like seeing a narc behind every bush, lol…guess it makes sense we’d see narc types in movies…they’re so draaaamatic🙄

          43. Caroline-is-fine (or will be!) says:

            Oh my gosh…HG just gave me your incredibly sweet & thoughtful audio file gift, “How to Stop the Hoovers,” and I have to say that: 1) I am beyond touched that you did this for me – yet I feel guilty that you did…I will work on the guilt part and just tell you how much I truly appreciate your very generous gift to me, and I thank you SO much🤗 & 2) I DO need to listen to this audio…like *really* need to, MP…things have gotten worse. I have no idea what to expect next.

            I have to say that your gift arrived in a true soul sister way, as it is impeccable timing…you must have felt led that I was up a creek without a paddle…Rest assured, I’m up a creek without a paddle!😂 No, I have a paddle now (HG’s hoover expertise, via you)…after I send a quick reply on site to SMH, I’m off to HOOVER STUDY!!!

            Thank you so much, MP. You’re such a sweetheart. 🥰 Please thank your husband too. You can tell him I plan to apply what I learn, so I’ll never need a spare paddle again!🤗

          44. Caroline-is-fine says:

            For a duckie laugh, the post I sent SMH, on another thread:

            Hi, SMH🙂,
            I’m so sorry I’ve not sent you a reply yet…it’s not been going too well, with my nex situation. It’s actually gotten amped up. So I’ve been ill at ease detailing it on here, for several reasons. Let’s just say “obsessed” would not be too strong of a word for how he’s currently behaving. It’s unnerving, as I have no idea what’s coming next. However, the good news is that MP must have sensed this & threw a floatie device out to me today (I picture it as an oversized cute, yellow duckie floatie🐥) — before I went completely under. Through HG, she gifted me a “Stop the Hoovers” file, so she must know how ridiculously “I got this!” I can be, & wisely decided: “Yeah, maybe you really don’t”😉…and graciously gave me this great resource. I am so touched.🥰

            So I’m off to learn more (via MP & HG)…and reflect. I’ll be back when I can.

            I’m very glad you are doing well! 💙I will be doing well again soon…no worries.💙

          45. MommyPino says:

            Haha Sweet Caroline, I’m glad that my intuition allowed me to give you a floatie! Please don’t listen to any guilt you have because I am very happy to be able to get this for you.

            I want to reply more and also to your previous comments but my stepson’s birthday is tomorrow so it has been very busy for me getting everything ready. My husband’s birthday was several days ago as well. January-February is the birthday season in our family as our birthdays are just several days apart or about a week apart. I’ll be back next week. 😘 ❤️💕🎈.

          46. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you so much, MP💞 You’d be a great Mom to have…very loving & attentive, yet knowing what’s most important & wisely guiding your kiddos to those most important truths. If I was a kid in a “Pick Your Mommy” line, I’d so be saying: “I so want that one! The MommyPino!”🤸‍♀️

            Catch ya next week, and have wonderful celebrations~Happy late birthday to YOU❣🎂🧁🎈🎁

          47. MommyPino says:

            Hi Sweet Caroline ❤️, I am still catching up on your comments that I haven’t addressed and I am getting a little confused in the order and finding all of them. But I want to say that I still believe and know that YOU GOT THIS! I just gave you an extra paddle and life jacket but I know how capable you are as a person and you will navigate this treacherous waters very skillfully. The logic bulletins are only as good as the person implementing them and I know that you can totally handle this!

            I also wanted to say something about what I remember you saying but I can’t find right now, about when I told you that your fear regarding your nex tampering or doing something with your mail was just ET, I actually want to back down on that. I have never encountered any narcissist of your nex’s caliber (thank goodness 😅) and have beaver been through what you have been through. You have a really good point that if he becomes threatened or furious enough he could do something like that. I still remember HG having his lieutenants plant daffodils on the lawn of his ex gf to spell whore. It’s something that I would never think that anyone would actually spend any time or thought process doing and yet HG who should have no reason to do it because he has everything that most people could only dream of and he still did it. My mom did more horrible things like that and mostly included destruction of property or career or relationships although they were instinctive. So you are right and I just forgot for a little bit how narcissists can be when they are challenged or infuriated. Also you know him absolutely well because you were in a relationship with him so I want to apologize for carelessly thinking that it was just your ET.

            On a lighter note, I have started the movie Invisible Woman and I was not aware that Charles Dickens did that. So far I stopped at the part where he announced his separation from his wife and his son was reading it to her and she cried. I am currently at the conclusion that Dickens was a narcissist. A lot of the scenes in the movie reminded me of several of HG’s articles. When he asked Ellen to tell him a secret and then he said that she is his secret it reminded me of this article:


            Especially this part:

            “ In the second instance the provision of the secret is all about drawing you into our world. By making it appear that you are privy to information about someone else or even better, about us, we appear to be taking you into our circle of trust, our ring of confidence. It is an effective way of making a victim feel special. This act of passing you some information which ”

            Also when he was glaring at his wife while they were nailing wood planks to divide their room I guess his glaring at her reminded me of this article:


            I would probably die inside if my husband ever looks at me like that.

            I also think that Dickens’ bestfriend was a narcissist. Also their behavior of being too late for Ellen’s birthday and then ‘whisking her away’ only to take her to a place where she didn’t want to be and also to salami slice her that her relationship with Dickens is acceptable instead of taking her to a place that she would totally enjoy for her birthday was totally narcish.

            I do not think that Dickens was an aware narcissist though. Do you?

          48. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP❣ I’m having signal trouble from bad/weird weather, so I’ll be off-line until our area gets it cleared (may take a bit), but I’m so glad you’re watching “The Invisible Woman”! I tend to think he was a Greater…there’s much we can discuss about that interesting movie.🙂

          49. MommyPino says:

            Now that I think about it, I think that you’re absolutely right Caroline. He was a Greater and he knew what he was doing. I have more to write so no hurries. ❤️

          50. Caroline-is-fine says:

            My connection is back! Did you finish the movie? I need to go brush up on it.😬

          51. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is Fine ❣️I’m glad that your signal is back. I wasn’t able to finish the movie yet. I will not be able to watch the rest until later this week. My stepson has fell down the stairs of his house last Saturday so we have been busy taking care of him. But he is doing well and nothing serious happened except for little scratches and bruises. He had his two little siblings pretending to be his nurses putting blankets on him and adjusting the blankets every five minutes. 😜

            There is no school today so I will be doing some Abraham Lincoln learning and fun activities with them since it’s Lincoln Day. I will make a tall hat 🎩 made of cardboard for them to wear too.

            I have been thinking about what I said about the ET and I was thinking that I hope I didn’t make you paranoid about your nex. I think that you have valid reasons for your fears but I don’t want you to be worried. I think that you are handling it well where you are cautious because you know what he is and what he is capable of doing and so you know to not ignite his fury or provoke him.

            About the movie, I think that you are absolutely correct that Dickens was a Greater. I think that he was aware and the moment that he noticed her she was doomed. That movie really shows the weird energy between a narcissist and an empath. I think both narcissists and Empath’s have very intuitive energies, more than normals, so there’s a lot of unspoken communication. When Dickens told her that she is his secret, which I thought was an excellent line by the way, and they both disappeared, it just goes to show that she also already knew because she was feeling his seduction and his revelation was just a confirmation. I have googled a little bit and there was a rumor that he also had an affair with or was in love with his sister in law who died. And I think that he used his sister in law that died to triangulate his wife before Ellen even came to the picture. I was thinking what a lonely life his wife Catherine must have had. It seems to me also that he was a Cerebral because his relationship with his sister in law that died didn’t seem very sexual. So far with the movie it seems his relationship with Ellen was the same.

          52. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP❣ I’m so sorry about your stepson’s fall. He’s so blessed to have you/your husband’s wise & tender care in his life.❤ I hope he’s not too upended by what happened😥…

            I LOVE your Lincoln Hat Day. How fun! 🤸‍♀️Those are the special touches that make for wonderful, lasting childhood memories…like with Valentine’s Day coming up, I always remember crafting pretty Valentine’s cards at school & also making creative mailboxes…then enjoying reading each & every Valentine I found in my box.💞

            I’ll write back sometime this week on your Dickens comments! 🥰

          53. MommyPino says:

            Hi Caroline is Sweet 🍬,

            The Lincoln Day was kind of a flop except for the hat part. They still could not remember Abraham Lincoln’s name or Mary Todd’s. Whenever I ask my son who the 16th president was he always answers George Washington even though I have corrected him so many times. Then he laughs when correct him again because he thinks my reactions are funny. 😒 But at least he remembers that Lincoln had four sons. 💡

            Thank you, my stepson is ok now. His little siblings loved being his nurses. And he had to take home all kinds of scribbles and drawings.

            I’m glad that it didn’t make you paranoid. I was getting paranoid about making you paranoid lol.

            I finished the movie last night. I had very mixed feelings about it (there always is mixed feelings whenever there’s a narc involved). It’s just never simple. I will write more. I don’t think that Ellen was a Super Empath. I don’t know if she’s a Co-D or a Standard.

          54. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Your son is too cute😂. Does he have any Lincoln Logs? If he does, here’s an idea…when you ask him the 16th president question, hand him a Lincoln log, to help him remember…until he doesn’t need the prompt anymore. But now watch…instead of saying “Lincoln,” he’ll say: “log.” 😂

            Yeah, I agree, that was a mixed emotions movie, but I felt like she finally had a personal breakthrough toward the end, as an Empath. I agree – I don’t see her as a SE either. We’ll chat more on that.

            I’m also looking forward to talking to you about the intuition aspect you brought up, with narcissists & empaths…I find that aspect fascinating too. My nex has incredible intuition…and I feel like he shouldn’t, as a narc — like it’s confusing to me. I’ll explain more on that later, when I get back to you on that last post/Dickens.

            Oh, I almost forgot…I love how your kiddos played nurse, for their big brother.🥰 Early on in my childhood, I had the neatest doctor’s bag, complete with ACE bandages and splints…for about a year, I was Dr. Caroline, Medicine Woman. I would ACE-bandage anyone who would sit still for more than 5 minutes. 🙄 My brothers were remarkably patient about this…but looking back, it seemed for every arm splint/ankle bandage I secured on them, they downed the entire bottle of my candy pill medicine. I was always having to refill it. 🤨

          55. MommyPino says:

            Aww I could just imagine how cute you were as a young and sweet medicine woman Caroline is fine. It’s too funny that your brothers let you heal them while they enjoyed your medicine candies lol. Me on the other hand, during my early childhood, had a much less dignified fantasy job. Several of my female cousins used to live with us to help my mom take care of me and also because my mom paid for their high school and some college education and also provided their school supplies etc. There were guys who liked them and in my home country we refer to them as suitors and they are supposed to visit the woman that they like at the woman’s house to meet the adult (my mom). They visited our house quite often and for some reason I had an idea of charging them money before I let them through the door. I was like four years old at that time so they only paid me coins which I kept inside a wall behind a door where I carved a little crack to store my earnings. I remember they used to laugh at me for this especially when I reject candy and tell them that I only accept money. So you were learning to be a beautiful and respectable medicine woman while I was learning about the pimp game lol.

            Thank you I love that boy so much. He finally memorized Abraham Lincoln’s name. I used a penny for Abraham Lincoln and a quarter for George Washington. We don’t have Lincoln logs but that’s a really good idea too. And I totally see him saying logs just to mess with me lol.

            You had a comment that I want to read again but I’m going to have to use my laptop to find it because everything is so small here on my phone. It’s where you talked about the age when narcissism becomes complete if it arrests traits at that age.

          56. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine I just realized that my story might be misunderstood. Just to clarify just in case, my mom didn’t ran a whore house lol. The young men were innocent young suitors of my cousins and they were visiting them at our house to court them so they can be their boyfriends lol. It’s not like that anymore in my home country but when I was young that’s how it was.

            I have been reading about Charles Dickens and Ellen Ternan and the more that I read the more I am convinced that you are correct that he was a Greater. I thought that he may have been an UMR because of his charity works and the values that he taught or represented. His life and behavior in his dynamics reminded me so much of HG’s writings.

            Also part of my mixed feelings regarding their relationship is that it seemed like, if we are to assume that the movie was correct with its depiction of their love story, that Ellen Ternan did not receive a harsh treatment from Dickens. He didn’t physically or verbally abuse her. He was in fact very generous and kind to her. And also she was under the impression even after his death that their love was deeply true. Her loyalty to him remained and she had no resentment. She was a total love devotee and very innocent. So my mixed feelings is that in Ellen Ternan’s world, she had experienced a one of a kind love story with a one of a kind man. She didn’t feel betrayed by him. So even if he didn’t truly love her, a part of me was happy for her.

            It also makes me wonder, if Ellen was not devalued, then she was probably not the IPPS. She was probably the IPSS. From the separate readings that I made online, Dickens didn’t live with Ellen. He got Ellen a very beautiful place to live but he lived with his children and his sister in law who took care of his kids and managed his household after his wife left him. There were rumors that he had a relationship with this sister in law but in those times it was illegal as it was considered incest. He even procured a virginity test for his sister in law to prove that they do not have a relationship. But I saw stories where in 2009 there was this diamond ring that surfaced that was supposed to belong to that sister in law Georgina and was passed down to her illegitimate son from Dickens. It was of course denied by experts on Dickens’ biography and they accused the person of being a conman. However the man had his DNA tested and he matched somebody from the Dickens’ family tree as a DNA relative. Georgina never married and she spent her life taking care of her nephews and nieces. Many people said that she was very close to Dickens and often took his side whenever Dickens and his wife had conflicts. It was also her and Ellen who were by Dickens’ side when he was dying. And Dickens left a lot of wealth to Georgina as well. I was just wondering although of course Georgina may have probably be genuinely concerned for her nieces and nephews so she devoted her life to taking care of them.

            There was also a story where another sister in law who passed away also had a weird relationship with Dickens. She died in his arms and some people believed that she was the love of his life. This was before he met Ellen. I just think that his wife Catherine has such a horrible life with how she was triangulated against her own sisters and was treated the harshest by Dickens. I have read that before she died she sent Dickens’ old love letters to her daughter and asked her daughter to send those letters to a museum so that people would know that he once loved her.

          57. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It didn’t even occur to me, what you were concerned about…in fact, I didn’t know what you were referring to! So I went back to look. Never be concerned with being open with me, as I take things in a positive way…and I am not judgy at all, regardless. What matters is what *you* know is true & how *you* feel led, MP…not other particulars. In other words, you’re safe with me.❤

            I’m behind on this site/a few threads, and I look forward to catching up soon! I’m one of those people who regularly needs to be really quiet within myself, to come to right answers/continued direction…so I’ve been going inward, which is what I need/crave right now.

            I’ll be back when I’ve had my solitary time & am feeling more social, like a little butterfly! 🦋
            Much love to you,

          58. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Caroline is Fine ❤️ You also don’t have to worry about offending me. I probably can’t say that I don’t easily get offended here at the blog but I realized that there are certain personalities where I feel safe and some that tends to put me in a protective mode. It is most likely unfair and ET based but it is what it is. I will try to figure that out eventually. But I do feel safe with you so I’m not on a defensive mode with the things that you say.

            I totally understand the need for a break. A had a little break from all social media as well and it felt great. I want to do it more regularly.

            Much love to you too and stay absolutely awesome. ❤️😘

          59. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Darling MP❤,
            It’s big of you to offer up that you may have ET going, at times…I think it is fair to say that’s often a two-way street…in other words, others have as much to learn from you – as vice-versa.❤ Sometimes it’s about personality clashes or communication issues…sometimes it’s about topic triggers…sometimes it’s two-way defensiveness – or life lessons to learn or unlearn (whatever be the case)…but we ALL should be looking at ourselves & reflecting, when conflict or hurt occurs.

            Good thing we (generally) get about 80 years to figure it all out!…to learn, grow, forgive, stretch, change, grow more – get ourselves enlightened.🙌

            Of course, I’m just here (living) for the cartwheels, strawberry shortcake & laughs…lol. Nah, I’m here for all the deep stuff too. Talk to you soon❣🤸‍♀️

          60. Mommypino says:

            Hi Sweet Caroline ❤️ You’re absolutely right.

            Enjoy your quiet time. It is nice to have a retreat from all of the noise especially from social media. I’ll just be here when you get back.❤️

          61. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You may want to rest up…oh boy, do I have a lot of big, big decisions to make & a boatload of stuff going on…more later.💓
            Love ya!❤

          62. mommypino says:

            Love ya too❣️❣️

          63. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m having horrible tech problems on here…hope you’re doing well. I’ll be back when I can❣ My narc is moving, to be closer to me…can’t make this stuff up. But I’m fine…really.

          64. MommyPino says:

            Oh no Sweet Caroline. I’m sorry about the bad news regarding your Nex. I will pray that he will just leave you alone and let you move on peacefully with your life. He seems obsessed.

            I’m really happy to read from you again. I understand about technical difficulties. I am well although I have been coughing lately but no fever. My asthma flared up I think because of my cough and I couldn’t find my inhaler last night but this morning I finally found it so I’m so much better now. Thankfully none of the kids are sick except for mild cold and it’s just me and my husband who’s coughing. I think we got the bug from our daughter because she has been having runny nose and she likes to kiss us a lot and we don’t have the heart to say no to her even though we know that she is giving us her germs.

          65. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, dear MP❤ I’m so sorry to hear your household has been feeling less than stellar lately, but I’m happy to hear what you’ve had seems mild…we all have this Corona Virus factor in the midst of now, but it seems (at least, here in the U.S.) that we’re taking a measured approach to it – we’re aware – but not freaking out. We’re being wise – but not overreacting. It’s a LOT like how I’m mentally handling my situation with my nex! Concerned…but not wigging out about it. Reasonably cautious…aware…but living my life.

            Can we refer to my nex as “Gabriel”? I’m tired of calling him “my nex”…I promise I don’t think of him like an Empath — but since he looks like Gabriel (except my nex is taller), I’d prefer it – after all, Gabriel isn’t real – he’s an actor – acting!🙂

          66. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweetest Caroline,

            I’m sorry for a delayed response. I got busy trying to catch up on stuff after my husband and I got sick and at the end of the day I was already too tired to go to the blog and write a response that would be mindful.

            Yes absolutely we can call him Gabriel from now on. It will be much easier to name them for the sake of discussion.

            I will have to take a break from Narcsite though for now. Actually another reason for my late response is because my mind has been very preoccupied lately about the Corona virus and I have been spending a lot of time monitoring what is going on. I am very concerned because we live in a retirement community and majority of the people that I know here are elderly. The thought of something bad happening to all of the familiar faces here makes me sad. The elderly here are really sweet and adorable and I am very concerned about them. I have been actively contributing to our community social media and gave information to some people who were not cooperative about the precautionary measures being taken to protect our elderly and thankfully none of the discussions have been disrespectful and it seems like a lot of people agreed with me if I look at the likes. I’m just really bad at multitasking or compartmentalization and at this time I can’t help but have my focus on my community and family.

            I hope that you are also safe and ready for whatever. I can’t remember which state you are in but I hope and pray that it doesn’t affect you and your loved ones. I am very upset about the news in other countries like Italy and I am very worried about Australia.

            It is very sad here as events are being cancelled but I am happy that we are doing that to protect the vulnerable people here. We had to ship the hand sanitizer that we were using at home to my brother in law (UMR) because he is fighting cancer so he needs it more than us. My husband called his MR older daughter who hasn’t talked to him for months to ask for more hand sanitizer to send to her uncle. He thought that there’s a high chance that she has boarded these things. But she said that they aren’t home because they got $200 round trip tickets ti Hawaii so they are there right now. The situation is really strange and sad and I just can’t wait for everything to go back to normal as soon as possible with the least death as possible. 😢❤️❤️❤️

          67. Caroline-is-fine says:

            No need whatsoever to apologize…believe me, I completely understand all your thoughts & concerns (we have a few very precious autoimmune compromised people in my family, & I also feel the weight of all who are more at risk – everywhere). I will write more later this weekend or next week on your post, but no need to reply back. You just take care of you & yours…yes, this virus is increasingly concerning – in & of itself…and in all the offshoot ways it becomes increasingly complicated & uncertain. The confusing elements are, IMO, what makes it so psychologically hard to handle, as is the case with anything confusing that goes on continually in our daily lives…I’ll say more on your post specifically at a later time, but for now…
            As hard as it is/confusing now, try to hold onto “this too will pass,” and as time goes by, the experts will gain more knowledge & get more up-to-speed, as our communities do what is best to keep us all aa safe as we can & contained as much as we can…say your prayers & take time to gain your own equilibrium, by taking a warm bath or listening to soothing music — whatever helps give your mind & emotions a reprieve, as we all need that, especially when under this stress…act reasonably cautious & mindful and prepared (CDC recommendations) — but remain hopeful of our united spirit to get through this hard time…helping others as we can, with compassion & comfort…knowing brighter, more stable days WILL arrive on our doorstep again. They will, darling MP.💝

            Much love to you…keep the faith…hunker down as needed…remember there will be a peak time of this virus (looks worse before it will climb back down) – but we will beat this monster back here in the U.S., as we pray the whole world’s efforts to do so as well. Remind yourself of the hard times we have been through and gotten through…and how much stronger we inevitably come back. This message, if read by others, is for your too. For all.💓
            Huge (safe) cyber hug, MP…XO❣

          68. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline,

            Thank you for your comment to me. It has helped me a lot. ❤️

            I just want to send a quick comment to you hoping that all is well with you and your loved ones. I hope that you were able to stock up just in case there is an order to shelter in place. I was able to stock up and get our family ready last week and these past days. I’m just doing the last errands right now such as returning a pair of cleats that I got for my son to a store an hour away because it’s too small when he wears it with his socks. And also I will bring rice to my Filipino friend who couldn’t find one in the stores where she lives. I’m also trying to figure out how to homeschool my kids effectively, the routines of it and getting organized. Other than that we are all set. If there is an order to come to shelter in place I will be one of those who will have to stay apparently because of my chronic asthma. I wasn’t aware that I’m in a high risk category because I don’t have any other health issues aside from asthma and I’m actually pretty healthy so I volunteered to do errands for elderly people here but now unfortunately I will not be able to participate in helping anymore. It’s sad but thankfully there are so many more others who are willing to help as well.

            I will write more maybe later or tomorrow. I hope that you’re ok and I hope that Gabriel is not making things more stressful for you. Thankfully this order to self isolate might help empaths with their NC by forcing narcs to stay indoors.

            Sending love and hugs to you!! ❤️

          69. Caroline-is-fine says:

            So glad to hear from you…I lost my last batch of comments (apologies to anyone else on the site who reads this, if I did not reply back to you most recently)…I wanted to come on here real quick to say I’m fine but a little hectic, so I didn’t want you (or anyone) to worry about me…one of my careers is ideal for working a big chunk of it from home, so I am doing that 100% now, as I am also now caring for (in my home) a young one (family member) who has a serious autoimmune problem, and he just cannot afford to get this virus…so I am really needing to keep myself well for him too…I’m adequately supplied at home for now, and our whole community is working so well together, to help each other all we can, in many ways, and I have much support from my honey too…so we all press on & pray that we FLATTEN THE CURVE/2020. <Can we please get some nifty, worldwide t-shirts going on that? (My sense of humor *must* remain intact, but this is so serious…feel so bad for all those scared, alone or who have suffered/died from this.😥)

            Bless you, for all you've done to extend your kindness to others during this, but yes – you hunker down now & take care of you, please❣I'll be praying specifically for you, understanding you must be extra special protected, for yourself & your family,my dear friend💕Narc update for another day, but I'm peaceful on it…and Gabriel is scheming/stuck?…who really knows, lordy.
            Safe cyber hugs & kisses,
            P.S. Kim & SMH-I think you're on this thread~hugs to you as well❣ We'll get through this~stay positive & strong…and narc-free😉

          70. SMH says:

            Thank you, CIF! I wish the same for you, MP, Kim e and everyone! I feel lucky to already have a few virtual communities as well as real life ones, and no narcs in my life at the moment, at least not too close!

          71. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Sweet Caroline ❣️ I’m very happy that you are ok and safe and well supplied. I’m glad that you are getting strong support from your honey and your community. One of the good things that came out of this is we get to appreciate the good people in our communities. Good people outnumber bad. And in times like these the good ones really shine. I’m glad that you are helping your young relative because he is absolutely safe in your hands. ❤️

            We finally have the shelter in place order starting tomorrow. I was able to do everything that I felt I needed to. I didn’t meet my friend because I told her in advance that I will just drop the grocery at her front door so we didn’t have contact. She didn’t want me too but I didn’t think that it was a big deal for me so she was very happy and thankful. Tomorrow I am total lock down. My husband will still go to work because he is finishing his post-op patients. He said that he cannot cut and stitch someone and just abandon them. But he cancelled his scheduled surgeries and he isn’t taking new appointments anymore.

            It’s nice to know that you are safe, thank you for the update.

            Thank you SMH and glad that you are safe too.

          72. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, darling MP❤
            It’s so commendable that your husband has wanted to follow through with his patients, as after surgery is when people (especially the elderly) often feel most vulnerable. There is no added glory for him in doing this, and it shows how he tries to always (steadfastly) do the right thing…a real keeper.❤
            We’re doing just fine here, and I am keeping plenty busy, believe me!…As an aside, for a laugh: I have a very sweet, super-cute elderly neighbor (widowed) who has COPD, and I’ve been helping her with some things, like a gallon of milk or whatnot that she needs (or house things), while her daughter is away for another two weeks. So she wanted me to come over last evening, to treat me to a “crème de mint” cocktail last night (she’s homebound and otherwise very well & having no visitors, so there’s no risk for us), to thank me for my miscellaneous help…I had never had crème de mint in my life, and I just sipped on what she gave me, for an hour or so & chatted with her…and then I came home (“honey” was here that whole time, with my young charge❤), and oh my — by the time I walked home, I was feeling more affected than I really think I should have (what a lightweight, lol), for such a fairly small bit of pretty-colored liquor, in a pretty, rounded glass. No more crème de mint for me…it’s like it slowly snuck on me until it SHAZAM – it hit me pretty hard.😵 I guess my sweet, little neighbor lady is more wild than I thought!🤭
            Let me know how you’re doing with your “gentle confinement” there. With your ever-love of family and your creative ways, I have no doubt you will make good use of your time. Let me know if I can help you with any ideas for your kiddos – or lift your spirits in any way. I’ve been listening to Lauren Daigle lately, and I just played her “Look Up, Child” song on YouTube – I think you’d find it refreshing/fun, if you want to look it up. I’ve been playing all her songs on that album, and she is so special – such heart & soul to her singing.

          73. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline, ❤️

            I have never heard of Lauren Daigle but I really like the song that you shared to me. It is very uplifting and spiritual. I will check out her other songs. Thank you for telling me about her.

            Thank you, that is definitely my husband. He always chooses to do the right thing no matter what. I don’t think that he’s an empath but he’s definitely a good guy and a keeper indeed. I’m ever so thankful that I didn’t do anything foolish with that narc handyman that could have jeopardized my family.

            You and your neighbor are so cute lol. I had to look up what crème de mint is and it looks like a perfect drink for St. Patrick’s Day. We just can never underestimate our elderly. My dad was in his early eighties when I lived with him and he always had to have one glass of martini everyday. He drank it while watching Jim Lehrer’s show and cursing at Republicans on TV. He was a staunch Democrat. That was his happy hour. He was also very opinionated about his martini. He only liked the classic martini. When I told him that I love lychee martini he was not happy with me because he thought that it was an abomination.

            So far I’m doing ok having my kids home all day. This past week I have just let them play all day. Tonight I finally told my son that he’s not coming back to school tomorrow. I told him about the virus in the most simple way that I could. He asked if his friends got the virus and I said no but they are also staying in their homes right now. I told him that they will see each other again when school is back. He seem to take it well. I have been super busy cooking different foods to freeze and gardening last week. I thought that with this crazy uncertainty it’s probably a good idea to be as self sufficient as we can do I got ourselves a raised garden and have planted various tomatoes and spices and leafy vegetables. I’m undecided if I should also grow potatoes since I have no experience with it before. Before the shelter in place order I was also able to grab some glitters from Joanne’s which I mix with home made play dough. I would love to have ideas from you as I am always trying to find ways to entertain my kids. One thing that made me happy recently was a couple of days ago my son told me out of the blue that he knows who the 16th president is, it’s Abraham Lincoln. And he said that the first president is George Washington and he never lived at the White House. He also said that Abraham Lincoln’s wife was Mary Todd and they had four sons and he used to live in a log cabin and he likes cats. I was so surprised that he still remembers all of that even though we have talked about it for a long time and he was so happy to tell me all about it too. So I think that homeschooling can be fun although I know that he will eventually miss his friends. He used to hug all of them when I pick him up and he is actually very well liked by his classmates. But life is a big adventure and sometimes things like this can happen. Hopefully this doesn’t last too long so they can see each other in school before summer. My husband doesn’t think that it will get too bad here in the US. He got an email from the hospital that they are trying several options to treat and cure Coronavirus starting this Tuesday. The options are two malaria medicines, one HIV medicine, and I think one Ebola medicine and they will use them with an antibiotic. Trump has mentioned two of the drugs on his Facebook. So hopefully this will finally cure the people infected so that it will not spread anymore. 🤞🙏

          74. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Darling MP❤,
            I have just a minute – but I so enjoyed all your post. With Lauren Daigle, you may be familiar most with her “You Say” song. I love that whole “Look Up Child” album of hers. Let me know if you want any of her specific songs (titles). They’re special, for me. I try not to post the YouTube links to songs anymore, because I think HG has to then listen to them first – and he’s probably like: “Gee, thanks lot, CIF🥱”

            With your kiddos, I’m sure you are 100% Super Mommy/Wonder Woman (👸💥) – with many fun ideas at home…I just meant if you’re doing the ABCs or anything else – trying to fit fun learning in – let me know – I love brainstorming creative ideas on anything. BTW, see? All your loving efforts to help your son with the presidents paid off…many times, kiddos absorb like sponges at the time, but it takes awhile for them to process it back out. I ❤ your son’s recollection of so many interesting aspects he learned.🙂 I am so glad he handled the viral news okay…you handled it so well.

            I cook/freeze foods too…do your kids like to watch/help you bake/cook things? That can be such fun learning (agriculture/chemistry/math), in countless ways👩‍🍳

            Gotta get dinner on here myself now…I have very little time to myself lately~not complaining at all though…we’re all feeling well…& things are going just fine here, and none of us are bored at all.🤸‍♀️ However, I see the viral number counts go up in places like where you are (and NY, wowser), and it’s just hard to see it…however, it *will* peak & then start to climb down. I hope you are not too distressed. I am very hopeful about the medications that will be used to fight this as well, starting more tomorrow.🤍 #HaveFaith🤗

          75. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Sweet Caroline. ❤️ I enjoy my kids and I actually have a lot of room for improvements still but the kids do not seem to mind.

            Yes, New York, California and Washington are currently the ones that are most hit right now. I think that New York is currently the most affected. My grade school classmate from my home country is a nurse in New York and she had been frustrated for days that they were not yet ordered to shelter in place like California. She was taking pictures of the crowds and posting those pictures and it was really bothering her. They finally have the stay in place order and hopefully that slows down the spread. I am worried about my former classmate there and also everyone else over there. The numbers in NY are really high. Here in California, last time I checked there are already 88 cases in Sacramento County which is just an hour from where we live. In our county there were only two confirmed positive cases, one is living abroad but has a house here and the other one is a current resident but contracted the virus from someone from San Clara and not here locally. The patient is an elderly and was already sent home to recover and self isolate. The identity was not revealed. Tests have been done but there are still no positive results aside from that person. They say that we only have six ICU beds in our county and the other two neighboring counties also has six ICU beds each. But my husband said that ICU beds is not that big of an issue because ventilators are more important and they can set those up in other areas of the hospital. And he said that this pandemic is such an abnormal scenario so of course we don’t have enough resources because normally the six ICU beds are more than enough. So I think that even if we don’t have cases locally the local hospital might take patients from Sacramento or other nearby areas. I hope that it doesn’t get to that point.

            I’m also very worried about my home country. My relatives are freaking out and my husband told me that they are screwed but I try to think that God is more powerful than anything and Hid will protect them. The government there is not doing a good job at all and it is very scary.

          76. MommyPino says:

            Hello Caroline is Fine ❤️

            I just want to send a quick message to wish you a Happy and Blessed Easter. 🧺🐣🌼✝️
            I hope that you are doing well and having a blessed Holy Week. Take care and stay safe!! 😘❤️

          77. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, dear MP❤ Happy Easter to you as well ✝🐇🐥…please take very good care of yourself & your loved ones, as I know you are/will. I’m not going to be on the site anymore, but know that I’ll think of you often & love you…and I’ll always be fine.❤
            Forever hugs,
            P.S. Because I know how it sometimes goes on sites, I’m not leaving because HG didn’t answer my last question on hoovers(lol). On the contrary, HG has been nothing but very respectful & extremely nice/even complimentary toward me…which is saying a lot for a narcissist. Hooray for Cognitive Empathy.😉

          78. MommyPino says:

            Dearest dearest Caroline, that is a really sad news for me but I understand that we will all get to that point. I wasn’t aware of your last question on hoover as I have been reading just a few articles lately but I am glad that it wasn’t the reason and I agree that he has been very accommodating with a lot of our questions.

            Please know that you have made a lot of good impact on me and I will miss you very much. I will always be thinking of you and pray for your happiness and peace of mind. Thank you for your constant kindness and generosity with your time and yourself to me here in the blog. Take care always and I love you my friend. Forever hugs. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

          79. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline ❤️❤️❤️

            This song by Lauren Daigle Salt and Light is for you. As a fellow Christian you know what it means and you are definitely salt and light. I’m so thankful for your friendship here and for sharing to me a lot of your thoughts and stories. I am truly honored. Always know how much impact you make without even trying. I love you and take care always. ❤️


          80. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you for all your kind & thoughtful messages. I appreciate them all very much, and I’ll especially tuck this one deep within my heart.💕 You’re a sweetheart.❤

          81. MommyPino says:

            Sweetest Caroline,

            I’m so happy that you got the messages. I was worried that you have already unsubscribed and didn’t receive them. I wish you all the best and don’t worry about me. You don’t have to respond to my last message if you don’t feel like it. Take care always and I love you!! 😘❤️

          82. MommyPino says:

            Dearest Caroline, Also know that if you ever want to talk about anything you can just reply to any of my comments here in the blog. I always love to read about you. Take care always and best of luck on all of your endeavors. Know that you will be sorely missed here and your absence will be felt very much. Take care and God bless you always. Lots of love to you Sweet Caroline. ❤️

          83. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline ❤️

            I just want to say one last time that I love you. And also on the times that I may have been lame with my responses to you that it was not because you were not important to me but it was because of my busy days being a mom and I want to always be 💯 present when I write my responses to you and sometimes finding a quiet and alone time for that can be challenging. Never doubt that you brightened a lot of my days. Also know that I will be ok always and you have given me more tools be be even better. Always take care my friend and I know that you will always be fine and wonderful and lovely as you always are. I know that God has a special eye on you and I don’t have to worry. Lots of love to you!!! 😘😘😘😘❤️

          84. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline is Fine,

            I hope that your Easter has been wonderful. I know that you already left the blog and I don’t know if you will still get this comment. I totally respect your decision but I have been wondering about the reason you are leaving. If you decide to share it with me I would really appreciate it. I have wanted to ask you but I refrained from doing so because I wasn’t sure if it is something that you would like to tell me. But if it’s not something that you want to share I respect that too. Take care always and lots of love to you. I wish you the best in everything that you decide to do.❤️

          85. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’d tell you – I truly would – but then I’d have to tell the whole site, lol…I discussed the “why” with HG. He’s a great secret-keeper. So after all I’ve learned & how I’ve grown throughout this amazing journey, what ends up happening at the end? In a room filled with empaths, it’s the narcissist that I end up trusting😂…I’m kidding, but it is a tad ironic…You know me, I have to balance my seriousness/depth with my goofball inner child, so always remember me like this:

          86. MommyPino says:

            I’m sorry that you had to leave because of that. Is it me who is the narcissist? If so I will leave the blog and you can stay as I shouldn’t be here if I am a narcissist. I’m happy to hear that you are fine though.

          87. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Sorry – my joke was lost in translation, apologies for not being more clear. 🙂I will re-explain… I told HG (<the narcissist I was referring to🙂) that I was leaving the site & why (while thanking him for everything), which I did in case anyone emailed him & was concerned about my absence, later down the road. I was only making a joke, about my going to a narcissist to share.😉

          88. MommyPino says:

            Thank you for the clarification. ❤️ I apologize for misunderstanding. I’m just never good at getting jokes. 🤪. It’s actually funny now that I get it. Take care always. Sorry for almost making it awkward. I’m relieved that I didn’t cause you to leave. Love you always and good luck in everything. ❤️

          89. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It’s totally okay, hon…I thought it was cute-funny, once I got an idea how you took it wrong – and then was able to get to better explaining, so that you understood (that’ll teach me to close with a joke)❣😘 Thank you so much for your sweetness to me.❤
            Praying You Inner Love & Light & Peace On Your Daily Path,

          90. mommypino says:

            Lol thank you for seeing humor in it. I will miss you but I’m grateful for knowing you. 😘😘😘❤️

          91. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Please read my last email to SMH…same 100% goes for you❣ If you need me, I shall come running…wait, there’s a song with those lyrics, let’s see, what one is that now🤔…<[the Ultra is now like: "Stop! Not another blasted song link, CIF! Get out of here already."]

            Ok, ok… so testy – the Ultra. (<that's humor!)


          92. MommyPino says:

            Lol thank you for saying that. That’s what was making it so hard for me was the thought that I will never ever get to talk to you again. Then I was having false guilts as to what I might have done that caused you to be unhappy. And then I thought you were leaving to GOSO on me! 😂🤪. I feel so much better now that it’s not a total permanent the end and I could possibly still talk to you in the future. But I promise I will not stalk you lol even though I look like a bunny boiler 😜. If I understand correctly what a bunny boiler means. Anyway no need to response. I will be more graceful this time lol. Love you to bits!!! 😘❤️

          93. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oh my gawd, you are so heartbreakingly cute❣ I should have said more…I was trying to not make my exiting a big deal (good going, Caroline – you made it so much worse!). Let’s just call this a longer break I’m taking…HG is now chuckling (rubbing his hands together), thinking: “This is all going exactly as I suspected it would – heh, heh – she’ll never *totally* leave us.”

            Love you oodles too, sweetheart.💕

            Oh, and you are NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A NARCISSIST!!!!!!!

          94. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you ❣️❤️ Mwah❣️ 😘 🦋🌸🌈

          95. SMH says:

            CIF, Now you are going to get a whole slew of goodbyes and you’ll have to keep coming back, lol! Better to just slip away into the night :). Just wanted to wish you luck and say that I am sure you are doing the right thing for whatever the situation is. It’s been lovely knowing you! Smooches!

          96. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH, 💙lol…there’s never a graceful way to exit, and I really don’t like goodbyes.😥 Thanks for believing in me…it feels like the right time to go – it was prompted by one thing, which actually made me realize (even more) that it was a deeper thing, a personal thing – it’s just time…the fact that I don’t have false guilt about leaving shows how good you fellow empaths & HG have done, in helping that aspect🙂 By the way, you are the blue heart friend because you are a very “true blue” loyal friend…like if you open yourself enough to let someone in, you’re always there for them – in an unconditional way, giving what you can – a real pal. So there ya go, girl. 💙[And MP❤: you’re the red heart because you make me want to do freewheeling cartwheels – and pour my deeper (creative childlike) heart side forth – forgot to tell MP that]. Everyone take really good care & wear your “Empath” proud…we are BLESSED to be Empaths.
            P.S. #Team O!/unless he turns out *not* be fantastically loving & great, SMH…then dump him! You deserve a great one – or your own fantastic company & great friends, which perfectly fine too.💙

          97. SMH says:

            CIF, Aww thanks. It is true. You have to do something really fucked up for me to turn my back once I am on your team. It’s a weakness too, however.

            No worries about Odin. I am actually grateful to C19 for giving me some distance and to this site for keeping me level headed and questioning. One possible red flag recently but we have plenty of time right now to see how things develop. He just texted as I was writing. Is a bit of a hedonist (hmmm, a somatic narc? I don’t think so – just enjoys life) but hey, he’s been hanging in there with me for almost six weeks, so I gotta give him credit.

            Glad you have ditched your guilt complex :). Now don’t feel guilty not responding to this!! Sending you good vibes and lots of love and happiness for your future. xoxo

          98. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hey, I’m not a perfect “no guilt” person yet – MUST reply!😂. No, I’m replying because I want to! If you ever need me, in any way, hit me up on this thread. I mean it! Don’t argue with a ⚔. Or if this thread crashes, go to the Ultra…he knows how to find me.
            I know…that’s NOT NC…don’t care – Empaths are not narcs. <dang, that girl learned so much.😛
            Love ya!😘

          99. SMH says:

            Love you too, CIF, and I know you will be there if I need you.

            Odin actually passed another test today, by the way (while we’re here lol). I fell asleep because there were long pauses between texts (both working, though me not on any schedule). When I returned he asked me what I had dreamed about 🙂 rather than acting all wounded. Maybe your team Odin is spot on.

            Don’t hesitate to come back if you need to. You know I will be here for you too, as will everyone else.


          100. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, SMH💙
            And that *is* a good sign…especially if he didn’t turn it into a sexual joke & throw attention back onto himself.🙂

          101. SMH says:

            #nodoesnotmeanyes I will let you go now! xo

          102. Kim e says:

            Butting in here. I don’t usually follow this thread but looked today. I will miss you my friend as you were the first to really extend a hand heart and head to me
            Best of luck and love
            I will be where u are one day. I promise you and myself
            I will try to keep SMH out of trouble
            Love forever

          103. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You are never butting in, doll…I will greatly miss you all too. You are my “purple heart” friend because you are “vibrantly unexpected,” like a surprise party, which has helped me grow/know how to handle myself even more…just when I least expect it, you do something I wasn’t anticipating, at all…and it’s good for me to be confident/secure about how I can stay true to myself – but still be a good friend to you.💜 Thanks for always caring about me…same goes, if you need me, as with SMH and MP…but I know you have SMH, who is calm, caring, steady & practical (and funny/witty!) – fab & important qualities for you to have in a friend…you know, ’cause you’re PURPLE.😉

            Uh, do not even pretend you need to keep SMH in line…SMH will (try!) to keep YOU out of trouble.

          104. SMH says:

            Kim e and I will keep each other out of trouble on here but I’ll bet anything if we knew each other in person, we’d be getting into loads of trouble together!

          105. Caroline-is-fine says:

            For sure! You both would need: 1-800-CALL-CAROLINE <not a real #…(I feel like HG would want me to make that clear, even though that's too many numbers.😛)

          106. SMH says:

            Kim e, CIF was the first person I interacted with too. I noticed even in my heightened emotional state how unpretentious she is. I was thinking I was helping her when in fact she was way ahead of me and helping me.

            Hope you had a good Easter – feels like I am coming out of a tunnel, which reminds me to change my avatar! I’ve been so lazy the past few days.


          107. Caroline-is-fine says:

            With my last reply to you today, I forgot to say that you did *not* make me feel paranoid about my nex, no worries❤…as it turns out, I should have been *more* anticipatory. He’s not being malign (far from it)…and, believe it or not, it makes it all the worse. You’d be shocked, at the latest. Ugh.😞 I’ll try to talk about it some, when I feel up to it.

          108. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, MP❣ I’m so sorry about your stepson’s fall. He’s so blessed to have you/your husband’s wise & tender care in his life.❤ I hope he’s not too upended by what happened😥…

            I LOVE your Lincoln Hat Day. How fun! 🤸‍♀‍Those are the special touches that make for wonderful childhood memories…like with Valentine’s Day coming up, I always remember crafting pretty Valentine’s cards at school & also making creative mailboxes…then enjoying reading each & every Valentine I found in my box.💞

            I’ll write back sometime this week on your Dickens comments! 🥰

          109. MommyPino says:

            Thanks HG. I have never heard of OLD before and it just came up from the searches I made regarding Boldwood’s weird obsession. A lot of the symptoms for OLD are also symptoms for narcissism so there is a big overlap. OLD might very well be a misdiagnosis of what is actually narcissism. I have read that there is no official medical or psychological classification for OLD.

            Caroline is Merry, I am enjoying the Christmas spirit between you and HG lol. I will have to rethink about Boldwood again. I might go back to my original guess that he is a narcissist and look at it in a Victim MMR point of view. I initially pegged him as an Upper MR Cerebral because he seemed wealthy and well respected in their community. But his expression when he was telling Batsheba that it’s ok if she has no passion or desire for him did look like a pity play. I will think about it and write again before next year. Love to you and enjoy the holidays!! 😘😘

          110. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Victim makes sense to me, and he sucked Glorious Gabriel in…he got Gabriel to pity him. Gabriel protected & also deferred to him a lot — even Gabriel’s very heart’s desire…kind, hardworking, calm-and-cool (yet hot!) Gabriel. That irritates me🤨…he MUST be a Victim MMR, lol

            More later…2020: Coming Soon!❤🤍💚

          111. Violetta says:

            Eh, it’s for Christmas? Thought it might be red flags

          112. Violetta says:

            Mommy Pino: Hardy doesn’t think much of the passionless marriage considered suitable by many Victorians. Look at Sue in Jude the Obscure. On the other hand, Arabella in the same book is an example of what happens when there is nothing beside passion.

          113. MommyPino says:

            Thanks for that info Violetta. I have never read any of his work but it sounds like he may be a good writer. He does have interesting characters in his story.
            Good point on passionless marriages not being very weird in the olden days. I was somewhat surprised when Gabriel the sheep farmer asked for her hand in marriage when they didn’t even seem to be in a formal relationship together. However his reactions after she rejected him was a respectful reaction so I just thought that it was just how they did it in those days. Boldwood’s reaction after the rejection is a much different story.

          114. Violetta says:

            MommyPino: I remember Imelda. 3,000 pairs of shoes and 300 bras. She claimed the shoes were the accumulation of 20 years, but that’s still around a pair every 3 days. I understand Retail Therapy and its subset, Shoe Therapy, but every 3 days for 20 years? Damn, girl!

          115. MommyPino says:

            Haha I’m sure that it was more than that Violetta. Imelda is the stereotypical narcissist. I believe she is a Middle Mid-Range Elite. Aside from all of those shoes and bras, she had crowns studded with gem stones and diamonds and some even custom made by Cartier that were sequestered from her when she tried to smuggle them out after they were ousted, she has paintings of Monet, Van Gogh, Raphael, Picasso, Michelangelo and even a long missing Goya painting. She has a rare pink diamond which costs several million dollars and all kinds of gold bars deposited in a Swiss bank. They hold the Guinness World Record for stealing the most wealth from a country. Her husband was so amazingly brutal. A lot of people mysteriously went missing and never found after they opposed him. But he didn’t go to jail for all of that. I have heard from some accounts that he died a very slow and painful death though.

          116. strongerwendyme says:

            CIF, Narcsite is like the Eagles song ‘Hotel California’.

            “You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.”

          117. HG Tudor says:


          118. theletterafterj says:

            narcsite is “word nirvana”; such a lovely place.

          119. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It’s like leaving becomes the same as staying.🙃

          120. theletterafterj says:

            Do come back and visit! I miss you already!!!

          121. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, K😊 I’m sure I’ll be back…as soon as I actually leave.🤭

          122. HG Tudor says:

            You have come back more times than Lazarus and Elton John!

          123. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Lazarus, ok, yes…but Elton John? – No not *that* much!😎

          124. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha.

          125. K says:

            Hahahaha…you can always just take a little itty-bitty break.

          126. Kim e says:

            Can you look up that thread for me where CIF says she is leaving for 3 days😂😂😂😂

          127. K says:

            Kim e
            Hahahahaha…after three days, I will use my Death Star to draw her back in!

          128. SMH says:

            Hahaha Kim e, She’ll be baaacckkkkk

          129. Kim e says:

            SMH. Glad to see you are alive and typing. I write to you on another thread…..why must it hurt…..must still be in moderation.
            Glad to touch base. I was getting worried about you

          130. SMH says:

            Kim e, Hi! I am here and just fine. I thought the site was basically closed down for days – that HG wasn’t putting posts through, so I didn’t worry. Unlike in the past, it didn’t make me panic! I just didn’t check around very much. I will look for your other post but it is not in my inbox yet, so must indeed still be in moderation. How are you in the meantime? (In case this is faster!) How was your Easter? (Mine was boring.) How is your ET and have there been any hoovers? If you’ve already addressed those things, no worries. I’ll respond when the posts come through. Smooches!

          131. Kim e says:

            I was just not in a corresponding mood for a while. All is good.
            Yes…HG was busy and we were at a stand still for some time but it is to be expected.
            Easter was a day. I have never been an Easter person. I am sure the nuns from my good catholic upbringing are rolling over in their graves but nothing special. I really slept on and off all day.
            ET is still there but I am in HG’s care now and we are gonna kick this N out of my head.
            No texts since March I think just before we went into lock down. I have not seen since August…so what the hell is the point.
            Gotta run…work is calling.
            I’ll be back.

          132. SMH says:

            Kim e, Glad to hear you are okay and are in HG’s good hands. I am coming to the end of my workday here. I was very productive for the first time in days, and able to get cardio, yoga and planking in. Am up to a 2 min plank but Odin the marathon runner suggested yesterday that we aim for a rather shorter PF song, a 4 minute one (though can’t remember which at the moment!). Talk to you later when you have some time. Smooches!

          133. Kim e says:

            Hey woman. How’s it hanging? Things here are staus quo. Work by day, try not to eat all night.
            I decided I would start reading this book that Kathi gave me. I got to the 5th page and the other character in the book is named W……..WTF. Not reading that right now. Maybe in a couple months………….
            Snowed last night. Got about 2 inches…story of my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            I have given myslef permission to be lazy about getting on line and not doing work outs with my gym thru this weekend. After that, it is on. Maintaining my weight but I can see the muscles saying GOOD BYE!!!!!
            Cleaning chores over the weekend and I get to start my Monday with HG. What more could a girl want.

          134. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e,

            Things are fine in my little bubble. Been nursing a few friends at a distance through very bad cases of COVID-19 with the help of the immunologist I met on the dating site but have never met in person. Try to be of help when I can, saviour that I am.

            I haven’t heard any ambulances this morning, which makes me hopeful (am just a few blocks from a major hospital).

            Odin and I hanging in there, both convinced that we will see each other again before I have to leave. Things got pretty steamy in our last conversation but I really do not want to feel frustrated about it on top of everything else, so I try to keep it light.

            Am trying to exercise every day but yes, losing a bit of muscle mass too. Yesterday, I walked about six miles. Went to meet a friend who is very stressful to be around. She yelled at all of the joggers running by with their mouths hanging open spitting virus particles all over the place.

            Made a vegan curry when I got home and now the flat stinks like curry.

            I hear you about seeing the name of the N. You will get past it and one day say to yourself, hmmm, didn’t I once know something with that name? Funny but Odin’s name is the same as my son’s father’s nickname. Makes me feel quite safe (wrongly of course but still…).

            What sort of consult do you have on Monday? A general one or a more targetted one? Smooches!

          135. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH (or Kim or MP),💙💜❤
            Ok, I’m back…but just for a quick “emergency heartbreak/narc or no?” question, lol! 😉
            I got a call today from a friend I went to college with…we usually catch up a 3-4 times a year…this girl (super nice/smart) has always been very grounded…I picked up the phone, and she could hardly say my name – she was crying that hard. 😥After I helped calm her, she relayed that — with much angst and tons of thought — she broke up with her BF of nearly 4 years (on-and-off a few times – but serious relationship, where they’ve talked marriage). So while that was so hard for her to do (and I have no doubt she was sensitive and compassionate in doing it), the part that has her totally rattled is that when she was done [she said she was crying through it], he quite eerily (calm/cool) asked: “Is that all?” — like in a breezy, casual way, like a McDonald’s employee would ask “Will that be all – or so you want fries with that?”…she was so unnerved/shocked that she said she felt this awful chill run through her entire body, like she has never felt before. It kind of reminded me of that “dawning” we all get at some point with a narc, like something is just really, really wrong. This break-up was done over the phone (which sounds harsh…but if you knew the whole story, she had no real choice, on the timing) – so no idea what his face looked like.

            So…I have one experience with something like that, with my nex (won’t belabor this), but it made me think…do you think it’s pretty likely only a narcissist would present like that – or do you think normals would/could pull that off, like as an ass kind of defensiveness? All she cared about was making sure he was okay, and saying she’d always love him, etc…and his response came after that. He said nothing else. She’s really unglued, in that way that makes me suspicious. I’m calling her back later today…she seems uncharacteristically insecure right now – and was talking so fast, like she was incredibly anxious as well, when she is one of the calmest people I know. I’m not someone who sees a narc under every bush, but I’m concerned by some of the things she said to me.

            What do you think? Ever experience a “normal” guy do similar to that?

            P.S. Hey, kind of cute…I’m now a little pink heart lobster character. I was a green robot before – an upgrade.🙂It’s the little things that make me happy.🤸‍♀️

          136. SMH says:


            Your poor, poor friend. I don’t think a normal would present like that but the thing that also gives me pause is that it was an on again/off again relationship. The only men I have ever been on and off with multiple times were either narcs or some undetermined sort of crazy.

            The fact that she says she still loves him is also a red flag to me. You don’t leave someone you love unless it is a toxic relationship and you have been pushed too far. Basically, if a man makes a woman cry there is something wrong with him. He is an abuser. I’ve never seen anything different.

            I hope you can make her see that she did the right thing and will survive and even thrive. It is good that she has you to help her through it. xoxo

          137. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH & MP💙❤,
            Thank you so much for your wonderful comments/insights! I’ll get back with you soon🥰

          138. mommypino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline,

            I’m having really slow internet so I hope that you get this. I felt that I didn’t have experience to draw wisdom from since my husband is the only boyfriend that I had so I asked my husband about it. He said that he was always devastated when he had break ups especially when the woman is the one breaking up the relationship. He said but he always preferred to keep to himself his feelings and preferred to not be comforted by the ex girlfriend breaking up with him. He said that he preferred to deal with his feelings himself and completely move on and would preferred to not have the girlfriend comfort him. So I think, that is probably a normal defense mechanism “unless” the guy said or did that in order to provoke her then that is mean-spirited. But I cannot say that it automatically means he’s a narcissist unless there are other red flags.

          139. MommyPino says:

            Hello Sweet Caroline,

            I’m having really slow internet so I hope that you get this. I felt that I didn’t have experience to draw wisdom from since my husband is the only boyfriend that I had so I asked my husband about it. He said that he was always devastated when he had break ups especially when the woman is the one breaking up the relationship. He said but he always preferred to keep to himself his feelings and preferred to not be comforted by the ex girlfriend breaking up with him. He said that he preferred to deal with his feelings himself and completely move on and would preferred to not have the girlfriend comfort him. So I think, that is probably a normal defense mechanism “unless” the guy said or did that in order to provoke her then that is mean-spirited. But I cannot say that it automatically means he’s a narcissist unless there are other red flags.

          140. MommyPino says:

            Hello you’re back ❣️❤️🤗

            Sorry about your friend experiencing that. Personally it’s hard for me to say without knowing what happened in their relationship. For that alone, I would say it doesn’t mean he’s a narcissist. Break ups are so hard. I have never experienced one but goodbyes are always hard for me so I can imagine that breakups would be much much worse. Especially if the relationship has been quite intense. I have reacted in a similar manner to her boyfriend although not in an exactly similar situation because of my narcissistic trait of Pride which happens to be one of my most dominant narcy traits according to the Trait Detector. It is easier to hide your true feelings when he is not looking at her looking at him. It could be that his first reaction was his Pride was hurt and so he reacted in a defense mechanism and then after the phone call ended he allowed himself to finally be angry or hurt or whatever. It’s not just narcissists that get hurt when someone is leaving them. But if there are other red flags then his reaction can be interpreted differently as in like in the article Why Does He Seem So Odd.

            So happy to see you back even for just a bit!! 😘❤️❤️❤️

          141. MommyPino says:

            Also to add, I am not saying that his reaction was appropriate but I don’t think that a reaction like that automatically indicates that someone is a narcissist.

            They were together for 4 years so even though she had all of the valid reasons to do the break-up over the phone, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t feel that their relationship didn’t mean much to her (and I’m not saying that it is the case but I’m just saying how that might have made him feel). And so his instant self defense reaction was also to make it look like it didn’t mean anything to him as well. Just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong. 🤷‍♀️

          142. Kim e says:

            CIF. Nice to see you
            I have think the true test if he is a N will be if she can truly let go and if he keeps trying to come back
            We all know too well that we get if she is addicted CIF should be able to tell by the conversations after a couple days have passed.
            What he did was no balls no matter N or empathic or normal. But if he shows up again well could be he is a giant ass or he is a N
            At this point hard to say.

          143. SMH says:

            strongerwendyme, totally. There is a thread about HC somewhere on here.

          144. theletterafterj says:

            This may be the thread you are thinking of.


          145. Kim e says:

            You are really starting to freak me out that someone just mentions something and you have the thread. 😳😳😳😳

          146. SMH says:

            Kim e, From our lips to K’s ears. She is omniscient. A goddess.

          147. K says:

            Hahahahaha…the omniscient goddess; I like it! I am usually kicking around here reading and trying to help out. whenever I can.

          148. SMH says:

            K, even after all these years, I do not read everything on here. I don’t know how other people do it but I subscribe only to some posts and then emails are sent to my inbox. If I see something to which I have not subscribed, it is totally random. That is why it is so puzzling to me that you know when your name is mentioned. It’s a super power!

          149. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha….”Empath omniscience” (that’s a joke); don’t I wish. My method is similar to yours.

            The emails stay in my inbox until I have the time to read through the threads and, sometimes, I will read through the threads several times before I delete the email, however, I am not really on the Polls or The Letter series that much so I have missed comments. And that is how I am able to catch my name if it is mentioned, most of the time.

          150. SMH says:

            K, It’s kind of a relief to know that you don’t have super powers!

          151. Kim e says:

            SMH and K
            K, It’s kind of a relief to know that you don’t have super powers!

            My bubble is popped!!!!!!!!!!!!

          152. K says:

            Kim e
            Hahahaha…you crack me up! Just pretend that The Narchivist of narcsite is still behind the curtain (think: Wizard of Oz).

          153. K says:

            Hahahaha…it’s a relief to me, too! Here’s a good quote.

            Librarians Don’t Know Everything. They Just Know Hot TO find Out Everything

          154. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You put “hot” instead of “how” – in your quote. Don’t start that dirty librarian talk again – like on that other thread. Wow, it’s really a one-track mind with you, eh?


            I’m leaving again…just couldn’t resist.😉

          155. K says:

            Hahahaha…what can I say, I am a dirty librarian. Watch out, my Death Star “Thrusters” will pull you back in!

          156. Kim e says:

            CIF. WTH. You are here more now than when you were here

          157. SMH says:

            Kim e, K and CIF, There’s no place like home.

            K, I did not even notice the ‘hot.’ Funny but the other day I missed the point of a joke because I read ‘walk’ instead of ‘wank.’ So here I am asking Odin to explain it to me because I was stumped (!) and then I suddenly realized that I had read it too quickly, which was just as funny as reading it properly, especially as he was struggling to understand what I didn’t understand, not to mention how to explain it to me. All kinds of things happen when you are stuck inside!

          158. SMH says:

            Haha K, that’s an excellent quote!

          159. K says:

            It is an excellent quote! And it describes my skill set very well.

          160. K says:

            Kim e
            Hahahaha…you are such a riot!!! Honestly, the magic is in the fingers and, sometimes, the memory. The Hotel California convo was easy to recall so I just googled it. I remembered that SMH, MB and HG were part of that particular convo.

          161. NarcAngel says:

            There have been many HC references over the years.

          162. Violetta says:


            The way is dark,
            The light is dim,
            But now there’s you, me, her, and him.
            The chances look small,
            The choices look grim,
            But everything you learn there
            Will help when you return there.
            The light is getting dimmer,
            I think I see a glimmer.

            Into the woods, you have to grope,
            But that’s the way you learn to cope.
            Into the woods to find there’s hope
            Of getting through the journey.
            Into the woods, each time you go,
            There’s more to learn of what you know.


        2. Narc noob says:

          CIF, no don’t go! I answered your question on hoovers instead of HG. 2 others also chimed in. 🤗

          I know that was a joke…. but. I trust your time is up but we will miss you. Stay well.

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Narc noob,
            Holy cow – I thought you were being serious…I was about to race to that thread!😂 Pretty much, I know the answer is that my nex is going to try to mess with me, one way or another…but I’m confident about what I’ve learned here & my logic. He’s moving to be in close proximity to me, for part of the year. Isn’t that romantic? (Kidding about the second part – true on first part…I’ll be wearing garlic around my neck😏)

            You stay well too. You’re a very sweet & giving person.💚

          2. MB says:

            Oh, K! Not the Hotel California thread! 😩😩😩 I had that compartmentalized away. Stuffed way down deep!

          3. K says:

            I am so sorry!!! You poor thing! I wish I could send you some TCH gummies so you can feel chill and remember to forget.

          4. MB says:

            K, compartmentalizing IS bad. It made me forget about the special brownies! I need to quit with this “stuffing” thing. MB going to the recesses for brownies in 3…2…1

          5. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…I have some special brownies in the freezer; you are welcome to them!

          6. SMH says:

            Hahaha MB and K. That is such a great thread. So funny.

          7. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…it’s like a trip down memory lane and we can also see how much progress we have made, as well.

          8. SMH says:

            Km It is. But we are still in THC, aren’t we! Nevertheless, I don’t go back to read my old comments now. I don’t want to be reminded of what an idiot I was.

        3. Violetta says:


          Jeffrey Lebowski
          Jesus, man, can you change the channel?

          Fuck you man! You don’t like my fucking music, get your own fucking cab!

          Jeffrey Lebowski
          I’ve had a really rough–

          I’ll pull over the side and kick your ass out!

          Jeffrey Lebowski
          Man, come on I had a rough night, and I hate the fucking Eagles, man.

          Umm humm!
          ….Outta my fucking cab!

          Jeffrey Lebowski
          Hey man!

          Out, get–

          Jeffrey Lebowski
          Man man! Hey!…. Awwwww, Jesus.

          1. K says:

            Hahahaha…what! You don’t like The Eagles! GTFO now!!!

          2. Violetta says:

            What makes that scene so priceless is th cabdriver is not what most people envision when they imagine the basic Eagles fan:


        4. Narc noob says:

          CIF, indeed, I was NOT joking. The answer is there. If you do one question at a time, you could have that answer you were looking for. That is what I did. I think HG changed the second quiz, so you could only do that twice. If you refresh the page though, you get 2 more attempts, and so forth.

          Best of luck with LT. That does sound so romantic- I mean, creepy. Hope you stay safe xo

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, there was no change.

    2. Precious says:

      Although the topic is serious I cannot suppress the thought that the titles evoke images of the old game D&D Thanks for the laugh regarding the titles.

  29. Jo says:

    My ex narc actually introduced me to a few series that had narcs in them including “lucifer” and the dad in “shameless”.

  30. E. B. says:

    Anne Brontë’s “The Tenant of Wildfell Hall”

    Helen successfully escapes her alcoholic husband and takes her son with her. Then she receives the news that he is ill and goes back to him to take care of him. The misery begins, not only for her but also for her son. I think her husband is not only an alcoholic but also a narcissist.

    There is a BBC adaptation – 1996 miniseries.
    Tara Fitzgerald as Helen Graham
    Toby Stephens as Gilbert Markham
    Rupert Graves as Arthur, Helen’s alcoholic husband

  31. NotMe! says:

    I’m going to go high brow and suggest Daniel Cleaver in Bridgit Jones Diary. The lies spill from him and the superiority and lack of accountability ooze from every pore. Even the back story of his affair with friends wife fits nicely. Evidence of difficulty with boundaries, vacuous and lacking in own personality. MMR (elite or somatic) seems most likely as he is passive aggressive, evidence of hoovers throughout. Bridget is a DLS or maybe a shelf IPSS, what kind of empath though?

    1. NotMe! says:

      Targeting, seduction and golden period are in evidence. He shows absolute need for control and uses what she has said and done to please him, against her. He shows zero empathy although obviously believes himself to be a ‘decent chap’. He re-writes history, blame shifts and triangulates – other woman knows about her.
      Bridget has cold and critical mother but then she falls for the shopping channel muppet so maybe I’m misinterpretting this.
      Is Mark Darcy an N too though?

  32. Claire says:

    HG, I was wondering if Jennifer Lopez is one of your kind?
    She portrayed brilliantly Ramona in Hustlers and I think Ramona is a Somatic Upper Lesser.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Claire says:

        Thanks a lot for the confirmation, HG! Happy New Year!
        Apologies for the delayed reply.
        It is a shame that JLo is portrayed as a typical Leo woman in all fashion magazines.
        Not all of us are narcissists.

  33. Si says:

    So many since they make such compelling characters and are typically at the centre of plenty of drama.
    A few favorites..
    Matt Damon in The Talented Mr Ripley
    Christian Bale in American Psycho
    Jack Gleeson (Joffrey Baratheon), Lena Heady (Cersei Lannister) and Iwan Rheon (Ramsey Bolton) in Game of Thrones

  34. lisk says:

    Two Lovers (2008), with Gwyneth Paltrow as the “volatile new neighbor” narc. Or she could be borderline . . . or both.

  35. Violetta says:

    James Spader’s played a number of narcs: the drug dealer/pimp on Less Than Zero, the boss in Secretary, but one of his creepiest is Steff in Pretty in Pink. The character could be just a spoiled, preppy asswipe, and was probably written that way, but that’s not how he plays it. At one point, Molly Ringwald’s character (whom Staff has been unsuccessfully pursuing for years) and Steff’s best friend walk in on Staff and his rich bitch girlfriend in bed. A lesser actor would have either been embarrassed to be caught with his pants off, furious with the best friend for getting the girl he couldn’t, or smirking triumphantly at at Ringwald because he’s with a hot blonde and she’s a quirky little redhead from the wrong side of town and SO THERE, Byotch.

    What Spader does is incredible. His face goes blank for a second, there’s a stare I can’t even describe, and then he’s suddenly almost satirically the good host: offering Ringwald and the best friend the bed if they need it next.

    There was something so intense in that scene for a teen movie I’ve always wondered what was going on. Now it’s clear. For one second we see the narcissistic wounding, then a nanosecond of narcissistic rage, then he covers it over and the manipulations begin.

    Some reviewers wondered why there was so much fuss over Molly Ringwald, who was cute and spirited, but seemed hardly the stuff of obsession, but even that makes sense now. Compared to the shallow rich bitches he knows, she’s chock full of fuel.

    This site….

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I would have swallowed his soul though. What can I say. I loved Spader back then. My narc looks like him at that time so my hope is his hair has a similar destiny.

      1. Violetta says:

        Understood. Never got the whole Blaine vs. Ducky thing. Spader stole every scene he was in.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          But I would have abandoned my life for his character in Stargate: absentminded intellectual, expert translator of Egyptian hieroglyphs. I mean, take me! I know I know, I’m a nerd.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I ended up watching Stargate again Violetta. It’s your fault 😜 I almost lost it when his character finds out the missing sign was the determinative in Egyptian rebus. I think my whole life I have been dreaming of a guy like James Spader in this movie, and that’s why I got ensnared. Fuck Hollywood!

          2. Violetta says:

            The Beeb’s just as bad. How many women have dreamed of the one-and-only Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy, when Jane Austen herself never married? Of course she gave her witty Elizabeth a happy ending, but the families of her own suitors valued a large dowry, not wit, and that killed off at least one relationship. Another died when Austen realized her fiance wanted her to be just clever enough to appreciate his cleverness, and broke the engagement herself.

            Let us at least give her credit that her hero turns out to be the initially pompous Darcy, rather than dashing, socially-skilled Wickham. Wickham triangulates the entire town against Darcy, gives a distorted version of how he came to lose the Darcy family’s favor; even after marriage, he’s trying to triangulate Elizabeth against his wife, her own sister Lydia. No matter how many chances he’s given, his irresponsible behavior makes a hash of every one. He’s a Narc sociopath if there ever was one. Probably not a very high-functioning one, since it always eventually blows up in his face.

  36. SMH says:

    Not a film but I have been watching the series Atypical. I really like it EXCEPT FOR ELSA. She makes my skin crawl and I almost cannot watch because of her. I think Elsa is a narc but I don’t know if it’s the character I want to slap upside her stupid head or the actress Jennifer Jason Leigh. Anyone have thoughts about it?

    1. Violetta says:

      Haven’t seen the show, but watch JJL in something else. See if you get the same vibes.

    2. Caroline-is-fine says:

      As per usual, I seem to be having tablet tech problems. I tired to reply back to you yesterday (re: your Matrinarc) on the “Black or White on the Shelf” thread…but, for me, all the comments are gone – and I can’t even reply.😣 I looked to see what other threads that I’m subscribed to that you were also on, and I realized this one! Would you please do me a favor and try to reply on the “B or W” thread…and let me know if you have an issues? I’d be much obliged. 🙂 I know this is the film specific thread, so please also just let me know a few other threads you’re on, and I’ll still reply back on Matrinarc!🙂

    3. Caroline-is-fine says:

      As per usual, I seem to be having tablet tech problems. I tired to reply back to you yesterday (re: your Matrinarc) on the “Black or White on the Shelf” thread…but, for me, all the comments are gone – and I can’t even reply.😣 I looked to see what other threads that I’m subscribed to that you were also on, and I realized this one! Would you please do me a favor and try to reply on the “B or W” thread…and let me know if you have an issues? I’d be much obliged. 🙂 I know this is the film specific thread, so please also just let me know a few other threads you’re on, and I’ll still reply back on Matrinarc!💙

      1. SMH says:

        CIF, Funny but I had that problem trying to reply to you on the B&W thread. Very odd that there were no comments. My workaround was to reply to Kim e. You will see it if you search on ‘CIF.’ It wasn’t a comment about Matrinarc, however (I did not see that or haven’t yet). It was a comment about the ST MRN once gave me. The ST that ended everything with a bang instead of with a whimper :).

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Yeah, I can’t find that comment on your Matrinarc on the other thread, so here is as good a place as any, to reply! But I’ll try to double post it (here & there).

          It’s interesting, isn’t it, how narcissists zero in our vulnerabilities/see cracks where they can get in…like with your Matrinarc, now taking up the mantle of “alone time” with you, being that she senses she can gain an advantage/you’re not comfortable with it. I think you’re wise to shy away from that and keep it the way you feel most comfortable, like with your sister there. As I recall (but can’t go back to review), your possible replies to her on this seemed fine…but if possible, I suggest “non-answer answers,” because they seem to be the best way to with narcissists…like really vague on explanations — or no explanations at all is ideal, KWIM? Because they seem to take any few words and twist it, especially in relating it to others, which can cause unnecessary issues…I’ve gotten over caring how my highly narcissistic parent explains things about me to others; and I’ve actually found people tend not to believe her take anyway…reasonable people innately know what’s bull, and especially when they know the other person’s character very well…and those who can’t be fair, who really cares what they think anyway?

          So…the only thing I was going to suggest is giving her very little to work with, with your replies. So maybe something like (when she brings up it just being the two of you spending time together): “I think it’s best we include —–(<your sister)." If she asks why, you say, "Because it's nice to include her." And just refuse to give her anymore than that. You'd be amazed how you can accomplish that, and it's super freeing. I would know!😂

  37. Lily says:

    Sauron (LOTR)
    Becky Sharpe (Vanity Fair)

  38. Caity says:

    I think Jude Law must enjoy playing narc types. I thought he was scarily accurate in the film Wilde, playing Alfred ‘Bosie’ Douglas to Stephen Frye’s Oscar Wilde. I literally jumped to my feet when Bosie had his tantrum (one of many) because Oscar didn’t want to spend any more money in him, and when he refused to help when Oscar was terribly sick even tho Wilde had nursed him through a terrible illness. The list goes on. The guy was HG textbook narcissist.

    1. lisk says:

      You mean Oscar Wilde is *not* a narc?!

      1. Violetta says:

        I think Bosie managed to out-narc him. THAT was what broke Wilde’s heart.

        1. lisk says:

          I must read up!

        2. Caity says:

          Violetta: I agree totally. Oscar had narc traits, certainly, but Bosie was the true narc.

          1. Desirée says:

            HG has recently confirmed that Oscar Wilde was a narcissist

          2. Caity says:

            Desiree: Brilliant! I guess that 100 bucks is shot, wot? According to HG during my phone consultation when we discussed it (I wanted his opinion since no one else in MY opinion would know) it was pointed out to me that while Oscar had definite traits, likely Bosie was the true narc.
            Perhaps instead of consulting I’ll just read the blog and your updates, if I’ve missed a salient point. Cheaper.

  39. Liza says:

    Little finger from game of thrones:
    1_ Extensive use of manipulation :convinced Lysa Arryne to kill her husbande John Arryne in order to create the right circomstances to bring Ned Stark to port real, what makes killing him easier, and separating him from Catlyne.
    blamed the murder of king Joffrey on Sansa, allowing him to use her to get rid of Lysa Arryn and seize the Vall, with the benefit of looking like a savior for Sansa, because he needs her for his futures planes.
    deliivered Olyvar and the faith militant causing the emprisonement of knight Lauras and queen Margaery, what in the end caused the anihilation of the Tyrell house, one of the strongest houses in the got univers.
    tried to make Aria and Sansa fight against eachother, and manny others….. (although manipulation is almost the norm in the univers of got, most other caracters do it for the sake of their houses, their nation, a bigger ideal, or simply to protect loved ones, Little finger does it only for his own benefits).

    2_Lack of remorse, ampathy and accountability: he didn’t hesistate selling Sansa to Ramsey Bolton, while knowing exactly what kind of man he is, caused the death of numerous people and doesn’t display any regret remorse or shame, his main focus remains only on how he could use the suffering and the distress around him to further his agenda, he didn’t hesitate to manipulate petter Aryn who is only a child, he gains money by using women, always making other pay for his crimes.

    3_Sense of entitlement and lack of boundary recongnition: even after losing to Ned stark, and knowing that Catelyne doesn’t love him and she is already a maried woman with children, he still tries to seduce her.
    he didn’t care that Sansa was just a child and in a position of weakness, he still tried to take advantage of that and seduce her.

    4_Grandiosity: being alone, with no army, no teritory, he strongly believes that he is the only one who deserves to sit on the throne, and that he will do so.
    plus the history of Little finger shows that he was in the right sircomstances to develop Narcissism.

    1. Liza says:

      sorry i forgot to tell which school i think the charater is from.
      so, Little finger displayed a verry hight level of inteligence, a great capacity to plot and anticipate people’s actions and reactions in different settings, a total control over himself, he also displayed malice, charme and charisma.
      the show never gave us an insight on his inner life, so i can’t tell what level of awarness he has regarding his condition, but the above mentioned elements lead me to think that he is a greater narcissist.

  40. zwartbolleke says:

    Bitter Moon (and sweet revenge is bonus in this film! Ha if we could all have this big revenge….)

    1. BonnieLou says:

      I must watch this film. See if it was as good as my revenge😉 😂😂😂

      1. zwartbolleke says:

        Ha ha, I don’t know about your revenge, but this revenge (in the film) : well deserved!

        1. BonnieLou says:

          After reading HG’s Revenge book, I did a couple of things via 3rd parties (who didn’t personally know me) so he didn’t know who to accuse. I found out he had a few women on the go and he actually accused the one he was lining up to be his next IPPS!

          1. zwartbolleke says:


            “After reading HG’s Revenge book, I did a couple of things via 3rd parties (who didn’t personally know me) so he didn’t know who to accuse. I found out he had a few women on the go and he actually accused the one he was lining up to be his next IPPS!”

            Impressive! Well done!!

            I can not tell the revenge in this film without spoiling the plot. But it was ‘shadenfraude’ at high level, and actively produced by the victim, so well done for her as well!

            And Emmannuele Seigner is also bonus in this film (hmm!). Peter Coyote is perfect casted for this very cinical role.
            I have a big dislike of Roman Polanski because of his raping history. I will not make any excuse for that and yes he should be spending time in prison.
            However he made almost a masterpiece with this film, the film has many layers, it goes very deep, and the visuals are stunning (although the entire movie is on a boat but this makes the experience also very close on your skin).

            The very last shot of the film is the Master narcissist at work, sublime!

  41. BonnieLou says:

    Phantom of the Opera! The film version with Gerard Butler as the Phantom is excellent. The neglected, abused child (the mask is a metaphor) …His sense of entitlement (demanding a salary from the Opera company), grandiousity (demanding his opera, ‘Don Juan’ be performed), ensnarement of gave me massive triggers and I couldn’t sleep for a week!
    The rage when Christine rips his “mask” off and her final words to him when he demands she choose between him and Raul, before she leaves with Raul for good: “Pitiful Creature of Darkness, what kind of life have you known? God give me courage to show you, you’re not alone.” As Phantom had just demanded: “Make your choice! You are trying my patience!”
    But going back to a previous comment Edward Cullen!!! Aaaaw team Edward!! 🥰 at least he was faithful to Bella though.

    1. Violetta says:

      Not a patch on the original cast recording with Michael Crawford. Listen from beginning to end.

      The only ones in the movie who really understood what they were doing were the Opera managers and of course Minnie Driver.

      1. BonnieLou says:

        I was too young when the original came out and couldn’t stand Sarah Brightman either. I thought Emy Rossum was brilliant as Christine in the film, but yes, I remember Michael Crawford did have an amazing voice, slightly better than Gerard Butler 😂😂

        1. Violetta says:

          Crawford was the perfect blend of seductive and psychotic.
          They tried too hard to make Butler “romantic.” The character has to be BOTH.

          My vocal coach wasn’t terribly impressed with Rossum, but she was easily better than Brightman, known to the original cast and crew as “Sarah the Stick” for her deciduous acting.

          The Phantom carries that show. There was a great Raoul when we saw it on B’way, but the Phantom and Christine were merely adequate.

    2. Desirée says:

      Team Edward!? Haha I think I get it but partly because of lack of options. I remember a friend of mine was a huge Twilight-fan and dragged her boyfriend to the first move. He was a normal and called it what it was: “If Edward wasn’t a vampire, he would just be kind of an abuser.”

      1. BonnieLou says:

        Yes, when Twilight first came out it was either Team Edward or Team Jake depending on who you wanted Bella to end up with (or who you secretly fancied yourself!😂😂) Your friends BF was right as Edward was very controlling of Bella.

        1. Desirée says:

          Was there not a scene where he creeps through her window to watch her sleep and when she asks how long he’s been doing that for he says only a few – months – ? And then he followed her with his car and said he feels protective of her.
          But at least he could read and write and probably had interesting first hand experience of significant historic events, being immortal and such. Probably fought in both World Wars and everything.

          Jake did not go to school because he would burst out of his shirt, yes? Are we sure that he was not a narcissist as well or do we not accuse him because we pity him a little bit?

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          BL, excuse the correction but it was team Jacob. I was team Jacob as is clear in my choice of narcs, abs over glitter haha.

          1. BonnieLou says:

            Yes, I realised that this morning please forgive my mistake😘. So long since I last watched Twilight.

          2. Desirée says:

            Bonnie Lou
            Jakob, then, no doubt they’re both narcissits. I’d rather speak with Edward because he experienced interesting historic events first hand. “Tell me about The Great Depression” is my kind of pillow talk.

          3. BonnieLou says:

            And as I quickly found out with my stunningly beautiful Narc Egyptian..All that glitters is not Gold 😉

        3. Desirée says:

          True, I have a bodylotion that does the exact same thing. Of course you and I actually ARE golden. Those hearts of gold weigh heavy yet we carry them with pride.

  42. Gracie Adeline says:

    It’s actually one of my favorite movies, “It’s Complicated” with Meryl Streep and Alec Baldwin and Steve Martin. Alec Baldwin is the narcissist in this one. He is the cheating remarried ex-husband that hoovers his ex wife, Meryl Streep. I still enjoy the movie, but I find myself analyzing it every time I watch it. I actually I do that with all movies now that I’m am educated, thanks HG! I will never watch movies in the same way.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      GA, I adore that movie. I must have seen it 5-7 times. As a love-devotee, I love movies about older people falling in love but this one is particularly comical and both actors are phenomenal in it.

    2. lisk says:

      That sounds like a good one to try.

  43. Alice Bertozzi says:

    Jude Law’s Alfie in 2004 Alfie movie. Finding it hard to settle down and commit himself to only one woman, the unrepentant philanderer and undeniable ladies’ man, Alfie, is a charming British bachelor who cruises the streets of New York as a limousine chauffeur. In his impeccable suits, the silver-tongued Casanova is simply irresistible; however, things will take a turn for the unexpected, when a night of unrestrained passion seriously tests Alfie’s frivolous approach to life. In the end, is Alfie happy, and, above all, what’s it all about, then?

    I actually enjoyed the end of the movie when he finds himself alone and says “What have I got? Really? Some money in my pocket. Some nice threads, fancy car at my disposal, and I’m single. Yeah… unattached, free as a bird… I don’t depend on nobody. Nobody depends on me. My life’s my own. But I don’t have peace of mind. And if you don’t have that, you’ve got nothing. So… So what’s the answer? That’s what I keep asking myself. What’s it all about? You know what I mean?”

    I like to think that this is what a narc ends thinking after a life of hurting and pain,

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I hate Jude Law in that movie. Also, she was dating Sienna Miller (one of the characters in the movie) at that time and he cheated on her. Guess he took “the method” too seriously.

      1. Violetta says:

        Have you seen Michael Caine in the original version?

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I haven’t. I despised the character so much that I didn’t want to see any other version of the film to be honest.

          1. Violetta says:

            At one point, he describes one girlfriend as “it”: something like “When it was upset, it would make a pie.”

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Mmm. HG’s Intertextual references never stop to impress me, I missed this one. In the context HG used it, though, it was justifiable and even just.

    2. Liza says:

      i never watched that movie, but from the abstract you made, i think that this person is not a narcissist, he is obviously introspective and he questions his choices, his achievements and he ownes responsability for the situation he found himself in , if i understood correctly what a narcissist is, i think it is verry unlikely of a narcissist to act in this manner.
      a lesser wouldn’t even take the time to think of his or her situation, a mid ranger would say it in a more pitifull way and he or she will make sure to blame someone or something for this unfavorable state of affaire, and a greater will make sure to never finde him or herself in such a situation and given their level of awarness they know that they don’t do happy, so it won’t bother them as long as the achievements are here, and they will be here, so evrything would be deemed fine.

      1. lisk says:

        Though the fact that he keeps asking suggests he doesn’t really get it and perhaps never will.

        1. Liza says:

          lisk, i think he is more narcissistic than a narcissist, but i say this only based on Alice’s comment, i never watched the full movie and i don’t know in what context he is reflecting on that.
          the fact that he doesn’t have answers is doesn’t make him a narcissist, at least i hope so, because i myself have absolutetly no idea of hat i want and what will make me happy, and i like to think that i’m not a narcissist.

          1. lisk says:

            I’m not sure, Liza. I would also have to see the film for more context. (I’m gonna go with the original Michael Caine version.)

            Come to think of it, a show of introspection doesn’t necessarily indicate narcissism one way or another.

            My Narcx could introspect like nobody’s business.

          2. Liza says:

            there is the real introspection, where you think to yourself honnestly about what you did, and what you should do, and being objectif about the events and honnest with your feelings, but there is also the show of introspection, where you speak outloud and tell others just how you regret this or that, or how sad and aimless you are in order to have the attention and copation of others.
            a narcissist can fake introspection just as good as they can fake ampathy,love or any other trait that they think would serve them in a particular situation, especially if the person you are talking about is a mid rander or a greater, they just wanted give them confort and focus your energy on them that’s all.

  44. Desirée says:

    I remember we already had this entry August/September, so I’ll just line up my suggestions here again
    James Bond
    Jay Gatsby in the Great Gatsby
    Heathcliff and Catherine in Wuthering Heights (although the latter is not always portrayed as such in film)
    Regina George in Mean Girls
    Christian Grey in 50 Shades of Grey
    Edward Cullen in Twilight

  45. cogra002 says:

    Does it have to be film? Is tv ok?

    I happen to have on sitcom Mom, at the moment.
    The Mom and daughter, recovering alcoholics, drug addicts, and strippers, are a classic Narcissistic/ codependent relationship.

    The Mom (Allison Janney, hilarious), can make anything about herself. Turns everything around, gaslights, blame shifts, denies…. she is classic.

    Just A few examples

    The daughter is trying to apply to law school, inspired by a history of seeing her Mom hauled off to jail.
    The Mom only hears “I inspired you”

    The daughter tells of the Mom deserting her off and on
    The Mom refers to it as “Trying to find her a father”

    The Mom also has an ex gay partner that appears, that she had lied about for yrs as the daughters aunt

    Best show on tv

  46. MB says:

    I excited for Knives Out! It’s not coming out until next weekend though 😩

  47. Dolores Haze says:

    Oh, I’ve been looking forward to something like this! Ever since I started studying your work, I was forced to re-evaluate the essence of not only my relationships, but also oh so many movies and TV series. What I once considered the greatest romances of the centuries turned out to be nothing more than a narcissistic dance (Wuthering Heights, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Gone with the Wind etc). My favorite Casablanca is, luckily, full of empaths. Or so it seems to me.

    What I really would like for you to analyze is Sex and the City the series, Four Weddings and a Funeral and Love, Actually (since ‘tis the season). Main characters are numerous in each of those, so the choice is yours whom you deem necessary to put under the Tudorscope.

    Thank you in advance, HG!

    1. Lisa says:

      Dolores, HG has done sex and the city, but I don’t know where the post is. I watch movies and things on TV very differently now !! There’s usually a narc somewhere in a movie , Scarlet being my favourite Narc😀

      1. Dolores Haze says:

        Well, I guess we need K’s help to locate the SATC post!

        1. K says:

          Dolores Haze
          I think this is it. Enjoy!

          HG Tudor says:
          August 18, 2017 at 11:04
          Hello Yolo,

          I do not have a huge familiarity with Sex and the City but I know of it. Purely for entertainment, here is my breakdown of each of the characters from my perspective of Greater Elite

          1. Carrie Bradshaw

          A clear target for an IPPS or Shelf IPSS. Why? She is an empath and exhibits the empathic traits of honesty, decency, moral compass but especially love devotee. She is a firm believer in the concept of love and is dedicated to finding that lasting intimate partner. She has her long-standing friendship about people she clearly cares about.
          In terms of class traits, she appeals to an elite because she has some intelligence and creativity (she writes a column), is interested in fashion, dining out, attending bars, she is highly sociable and therefore has a good mix of cerebral and somatic traits.
          I do not know her childhood story (or if it was ever revealed during the show) but I suspect there is some damage there because she is very susceptible to our kind because:-
          a. She is pursued repeatedly and succumbs to the overtures of Mr Big – clearly one of our kind;
          b. She can be lured away from a relationship – thus is a Dirty Empath – as she commences an affair when she is with the interior designer chap
          c. She succumbs to love bombing – Petrovsky (another narcissist) love bombs and controls her

          Bradshaw will provide significant fuel owing to her empathic traits, her collective class traits appeal to an elite and she is clearly damaged as she falls prey to at least two of our kind.

          2. Charlotte York

          A clear target for an IPPS. ‘fish’ ‘shooting’ ‘barrel’ all spring to mind. Nearly off the charts in terms of empathic traits – compassionate (deals with Trey’s impotence and does not let it stand in the way of getting married), love devotee (utterly obsessed with finding the one and her knight in shining armour), moral compass (strong religious background), honest, decent, animal lover – the empathy just flows.
          In terms of class traits also appealing to an elite – over achiever therefore strong academics, but was a model when a teenager, prom queen, has a degree, always well-turned out, perfectionist – therefore classic mix of the cerebral and somatic traits. She also targets men who of professional and impressive standing (finance, law, medicine) and therefore would be naturally drawn to a Greater Elite since many would be in those professions.
          In terms of special traits, she is a perfectionist and therefore this suggests she has a strong need to control everything around her. This smacks of being generated by some kind of damage but also means that if she is losing control she will react in an emotional fashion very easily, thus lots of fuel.
          Would be very easy to ensnare.

          3. Miranda Hobbes

          Shelf IPSS. Has evident empathic traits (she cares for Steve when he has testicular cancer and also his dementia-suffering mother). She has a child and cares for her child as a single parent for a period of time. Has clear honesty, decency and a strong moral compass. Not so much a love devotee.
          In terms of class traits probably leans more towards a cerebral choice rather than that of an elite, hence I would choose her as a shelf. Her status as a lawyer ticks the boxes with regard to cerebral traits and she will have decent connections too (residual benefit) , but on the somatic side does not have the strength of traits and indeed she accepts a lower league partner (the bar-tender) and lives in cramped accommodation. Miranda would be a useful bolt-on from time to time re character traits and residual benefits, but her fuel provision would not be good enough to make her a consideration for an IPPS for me. She has an inherent cynicism of men and relationships (thus denoting her logic often prevails) which means she may prove costly in terms of control for an IPPS and is better served as a Self IPSS.

          4. Samantha Jones

          Dirty Little Secret. Why? Ms Jones is a narcissist, clearly Somatic. Self-centred, opinionated, high jealousy, infidelity, poor boundary recognition, no emotional empathy, multiple sexual partners, sexually fluid. She would serve well as a DLS for intense bursts of fuel provided through sex and also manipulating her in terms of triggering her huge jealous streak. She also has PR connections so there are some residual benefits. Her narcissism means that she is unsuitable for IPPS and even a Shelf IPSS, one could only countenance her in small doses but treating her that way, as she would seek to seduce and find the resistance of romantic interaction compelling and would heighten her attempts to seduce resulting in increased fuel provision.

          I could go into more detail but time prohibits.
          Of the four characters I would target install Jones as a DLS, have the other three as IPSSs, making York candidate IPSS and then eventual IPPS. Hobbes and Bradshaw would be placed on the shelf but interacted with as NISSs during the golden period of York (since as a Greater one would easily maintain them in the fuel matrix) with Jones being disengaged from. Once York enters devaluation, Jones would be hoovered and used to triangulate with York, Hobbes and Bradshaw would be returned to IPSS and used as shelf IPSSs (Bradshaw has potential to become a Candidate IPSS). I would look to organise a threesome involving Jones and York premised on this being York’s (ill-fated) chance to escape devaluation and save the relationship, but in reality it would just be a fuel fest. Disappointed with Bradshaw failing to make the grade she would be maintained as shelf IPSS as I turn my attention to Wendy Rhoades of Billions who would be a Candidate IPSS within moments.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            How horrendous all this machination sounds and also that I see myself and my narc story so much in Carry’s character… glad I’m out! I don’t have any Manolos unfortunately.

          2. K says:

            Abso-fucking-lutely. (Mr. Big quote)

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha Mr Big was a pretentious prick. I loved Aidan… poor guy.

          4. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Haha…he was a pretentious prick but I loved his character.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Carrie. Oh! Maybe Carrie / Carrier!

      2. Dolores Haze says:

        Found it! Not a separate post, but as HG’s comment on this post:

        1. K says:

          Oops! you found it!

        2. K says:

          Dolores Haze
          Excellent detective work BTW!

  48. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Spirits in the Forest, by Depeche Mode. Released mmm… last night? Guess who the narcissist is. PS: It was A-M-A-Z-I-N-G 🖤

    1. Violetta says:

      I was going to ask if anyone had seen it yet.

      Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. Not just for conceit, but for the way he doesn’t care which bystanders gets hurt by his actions: Belle’s father, the Three Silly Girls, the animals he hunts for trophies rather than food….

      His actions on hearing that Belle prefers the company of a “hideous beast” to his are textbook Narcissistic rage.

      1. Violetta says:

        And now that I’m reading Sitting Target, Gaston is defo a somatic, with LeFou as his arse-licking lieutenant.

        The Queen in Snow White is malign. Nobody knows or cares where Snow White disappeared to except the Mirror, but Queenie has to chase her all over the fairytale map to make sure Snow White won’t stay the fairest…and to get her revenge, she makes herself old and hideous, as if she has forgotten what this whole rivalry was about in the first place. What if she’d managed to Snowy and couldn’t switch back? Oh well, she’s a Narc. Get that fuel first.

    2. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

      Ohhh SP was it that good? I sooooo wanted to go, but we had a death in the family a few days ago so I didn’t have the opportunity.


      To answer the question of narcs on screen, absolutely and completely the main character from the 90s TV series Profit.

      He was abused and neglected as a child. As an adult he joins a big business type of company and basically makes it his mission to climb his way to the top… by any means necessary.

      It’s twisted and chilling and very good.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        TPoT, I’m sorry about your family loss. The film was really good!!!!! My friend and I were sitting at the front row so I took really good pictures that I wish I could share with you. I was the only one singing and raising my arms because I have no shame. In a way I wish I could have taken a ride with my … haha JK, I was saying I wish I could have taken my friend to watch it in my hometown with my Mode friends, people in my country are much more passionate in public events. But we had a great time.

        1. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

          Ahh that sounds like you had a great time!

          I can’t imagine anyone in England waving and singing in the cinema! (Not unless it was maybe some Mamma Mia sing-along or something! I wouldn’t know though, I’ve never been to a sing-along film showing.)

          And thank you for your sympathy. It was my mother-in-law. Cancer. We knew it was coming but it was still an awful blow. She was a very kind woman who really doted on her family. Time will help with grief, I suppose, as with all things in life.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m sorry, TPoT.
            Angels with silver wings
            Shouldn’t know suffering
            I wish I could take the pain for you.

            I hate cancer. ❤️

          2. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

            Thank you SP xx

            Cancer is the devil. It took my grandfather in 2003, it took my cousin in April last year (he was only the same age as me, 34 at the time), and now it has taken my MIL.

            Another cousin of mine went through it a few years ago when he was in his early 20s and thankfully come out of the other side, and my step-brother’s son (he’s only 11) also went through cancer last year and touch wood he’s okay at the moment.

            It’s evil. Don’t get me started on how absolutely and utterly useless Cancer Research as a charity actually is.

            Back to the thread, I just thought of another film with a narc in it. Heartburn with Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep. JN is so definitely a narc, and MS his IPP.
            If I had to pin what type of narc the character is, I would say lesser.

          3. Violetta says:


            Why is cancer research useless? Or are the charities useless?

            Sorry about your MIL, but I’m impressed the two of you had a good relationship. That speaks well for you both

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