There are times when the hatred, the vitriol and the malice can no longer be contained. They must be unleashed. Most often, this occurs as a consequence of the ignition of fury which arises as a response to the wounding which happens because we have been criticised. The ignited fury may, with those of us with greater control thresholds, be kept under control, especially if we are mindful of the impact it may have upon the facade. Sometimes, we cannot exert that control and heated or cold fury erupts from us, seeking to provoke a reaction from you and others which will draw fuel and in turn address the wound so the fury in time abates.

Then there are the times when there is a need to spread hurt, cause pain, to shock and to lash out.

It is not an uncontrolled and haphazard spewing forth of hatred, a dervish that lashes out at all around him or her, drawing looks of horror, hurt and annoyance. Such a frenzied response is one associated with the loss of control which occurs through the ignition of fury. This is a calculated exercise in drawing negative fuel for the purposes of letting this awful and treacherous world and its traitorous minions know that there is a blazing hatred at our core, a permanent state of malicious and venomous antipathy for everybody around us. We have no interest in donning a mask of charm or magnetism. There is no desire to present a facade on such occasions. Our seething, savage malcontent must emerge and be branded on all those who are unfortunate enough to cross our path.

It may start at any point in the day. It may be that on wakening we feel it there, the corrosive taint of malice which has to be allowed to surface. We may, in less experienced times, have thought that the provision of positive fuel would cause this sensation to lessen and to vanish, but it does not. For some reason, some deep and dark reason, only negative fuel will suffice. I have experienced this on several occasions. I now recognise it. It is the desire to destroy, to hurt, to maim and I know that until such time as I have drunk deep of the negative fuel that flows from such actions, I will not be able to stop and cause this sensation to vanish. I can feel it inside of me – it is not fury, but rather a visceral and powerful hatred for everything and everyone. A bilious sensation sat in my core and I must obey it. It is allied to the ever present hunger for fuel, but only negative will do. It is as if some ancient wrong can only ever be reconciled through the application of repeated wrongs, as if that historic crime has to be repeated and replicated in the here and now and in so doing, by giving it such an exposure and airing, release is achieved.

Something wicked from way back when must be allowed to manifest now.

And so the day is one of vicious behaviours. The morning greeting from the neighbour is met with an instruction to him to “get fucked” or to invite him to keep an eye on that “whore of his wife and her afternoon visitors”. His shocked response is seen from peripheral vision, the first drops of negative fuel trickling my way as I march to my vehicle  and enter it. The cocooning effect of the magnificent car does nothing to remove the malice. On the drive to the office, those talking on the radio are routinely lambasted for the idiocy – they cannot hear me but it does not matter – they must still be told. The window is lowered and a pair of young women walking along the road are shouted at, the single insult of “sluts” trailing after me as I drive past. The cyclist is pilloried for being a “latex clad wanker”, the person waiting at the zebra crossing jumps back as I fail to yield to them and give them the finger as I sail by.

Sat in idling traffic I endeavour to catch the eye of the driver behind or in front and goad them with hand gestures.

“Come on, come on, get out,” I hiss to myself, hoping they will emerge from their vehicle and challenge me. Just do it, give me the provocation I am looking for and I can unleash yet more of this malice which is surging through me. Today they perhaps see what glints in my darkened eyes and do no more than retaliate with their own gestures before the traffic moves on and we become separated.

The barista in the cafe asks for my order and my name in that ridiculous manner of theirs. All I want is tea, not some imported affectation of a grand ho cho or some ridiculous coffee which is whipped, flavoured, syrup and sprinkled. I give the name “Farquhar” and say it in a tone which tells him that if he dares, if he fucking dares to ask me how to spell that name I will seize several of these over-priced muffins in the display and force them into his spluttering mouth one by one. He does not ask and his cake choking is avoided.

Of course when the beverage arrives, I see “Farkwar” daubed in the hand-writing of a five year old on the side. I lift the cup and speak,

“Excuse me,” I say coolly. The barista turns and looks at me. Already hesitation is gripping him.

“Yes?” he asks.

“Are you some kind of epsilon semi-moron.” I say. Although it should be a question, it sounds more like a statement as I point at the scrawl on the cup. He says nothing, unsure of what to say and what I will do.

“Is that wrong? I’m sorry,” he offers.

I hold his gaze, my dark glare boring into him as I contemplate setting alight his extensive beard. He looks away at the floor within a couple of seconds. I know everybody else in this store is looking at me. Good.

I shake my head.

“You should have tried harder at school you fucking quarter wit,” I announce and turn, shoving past those behind me. There are no protests.

And so it goes. The receptionist is told she looks slovenly when I enter the office. The office junior is snarled at to get out of the way. I find fault with everything that those working for me do. I draw tears from one annihilated associate as I subject him to a five minute tirade as to the inadequacies of his report, banishing him from my room as if exiling him from my kingdom. He is the third person who has entered my office and been subjected to my malice and it is not even mid-morning.

My secretary pokes her head around the door.

“Is everything okay?” she asks.

I pause and look up from my computer and apply the charm of the smile.

“Absolutely great. Could not be better. First class. Tip top. Superb.” I confirm as I reel off a range of synonyms for all being well. Most will be branded with my malice today but not her. She is a loyal Lieutenant and this time she is exempt, besides, what better way to really mess with the heads of those beneath me is to have my secretary say,

“He was fine with me,” if they come crawling back trying to ascertain what is wrong.

E-mails receive curt replies. Those who telephone are subjected to a savage dissection of their proposal which leaves them speechless. Instructions are barked, injunctions issued and idiots torn apart. The malice remains, powering the nasty and unpleasant behaviours but never surging out of control. It is as if this malice recognises that it does some good to put some stick about, to let people know that they have to earn my grace and favour, that they ought to be on their toes, alert and mindful that their elevated position can be removed in an instant. Few ever challenge, most retreat horrified, alarmed and hurt. Those that do fight back but they are then subjected to fiercer malice as they are intimidated until they break away, muttering and still hurling insults. It matters not, it is all negative fuel.

In another place this malice would have manifested through the application of physical violence. The punches and kicks traded with those stroppy waxwork faces as part of the understanding that this is what happens in such an arena. In another place again, this malice would surface through the cruelty and humiliation of the one supposedly closest to me in the most intimate of settings. In yet another place, this malice would appear as the event wrecking ball, leaving nothing standing.

But today it happens in this place and this means that verbal abuse, insults, savage tongue, baleful glare and acidic responses are the appropriate ways in which the malice makes itself felt and draws of the negative fuel.

Some who are the recipients are strangers and our paths will not cross again. Others may regard me warily until the usual charm appears and they are put at ease. Most know better than to make it appear on another day through the ignition of fury. Occasionally there are those who will take it further. A demand for an apology, a raised grievance through formal channels and even a complaint to the authorities. In those rare instances the matter is dealt with through the restoration of persuasion and magnetism. A reward is offered to avoid the issue, charm negates the challenge or even a supposedly heart-felt apology is provided. They are, after all, just words and of course the relief, pleasure and gratitude espoused by the other person is all positive fuel, welcomed on the alternative occasion. There is not one who has been on the receiving end of the malice who cannot be brought back into line once again. All people have a price.

When this malice appears in this form, the entrenched and ancient right exercising its need to be aired, after a day of caustic comments, vicious volleys and sarcastic smiles, with the negative fuel swallowed up, I return and there is a beneficiary of all this vitriol. Having allowed the malice to be known, to let it stretch its legs and flex its muscles, it retreats, for now and as I arrive at your house or return to ours, you receive the positive side of this contrast for once. Even if you, as primary source, are being devalued, you will be given a sudden respite and the resurrection of the golden period. Your surprise and delight at its return brings forth the positive fuel in significant quantities and it washes over me, replacing the now receded malice. Your positive fuel is now required and thus the devaluation is halted as you are seen as a sanctuary of delight compared to those who have annoyed, irritated and crossed me during the day. It may not last long, but for today at least, the malice was given vent and now you benefit from its sustained application.

Even when I am malicious, I am good.

114 thoughts on “Malice

  1. Kristin says:

    Lorelei, Renarde, WhoCares, NA and Violetta,

    I spent the day at our property and I feel renewed. It is in a small town, think Deliverance; modern day version. I drove by the Subway restaurant and they had the following on their sign…”Making hunger disappear faster than Carole Baskin’s husband.” Not sure what corporate would think of that but I thought it was funny!

    I just wanted to let you all know that your help and support was not for naught. Yes, admittedly I was overwhelmed with all of the great advice, BUT, I have had time to process it all and I now have a renewed strength and feel empowered yet again. You all were able to help me prioritize everything and emphasize what is really important. When my mind starts focusing on the stupid details of moving, I push them away because now is not the time to fill my head with pointless worries. So, thank you very much, once again. 🧡

    1. Violetta says:

      “Making hunger disappear faster than Carole Baskin’s husband.”

      Twisted humor is the only kind that’s useful.

      1. Kristin says:

        Isn’t that the truth. Your “lesser’s dick pic” remark was classic. Keep up the good work Violetta, you make me laugh!

  2. Kristin says:

    I just wanted to say a huge thank you those of you who have taken the time to offer your support and advice. Am I scared, yes, is my ET high, yes, BUT you all have made me aware of things I did not think about, have helped me move forward and more importantly, have faith in me that I will get there. 💕🥰

    1. NarcAngel says:

      It evident that we are all pulling for you and that many have been where you are now and wish you to be free of those feelings and moving forward. Our messages to you are heartfelt and in some cases relay an urgency that is valid but that you may not yet feel. We make the comments individually but I hope the collective number and content of them does not make you feel pressured to have to respond or to take action and have you withdraw to avoid. The intention is to be supportive – not to pressure. You know you have support here and you have HG available for consult on specific matters and should you need help with formulating a plan for escape.

      1. Lorelei says:

        Indeed NA, as the intent is not to instill
        pressure, it is more about empowering. These lives become paralyzed and even a few years into my first marriage I was feeling it was impossible. It was not. I know I was paralyzed this recent second marriage and got to the point people tried to explain something was wrong and I couldn’t move. I’ve been explicit in my comments to Kristin to discuss with HG, I was not attempting to pressure her, but expand her thinking about what seems too difficult may be less so. Living with narcissism casts such a shadow that once out it’s hard not express a “Come here” to those still stuck.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I know that was not anyone’s intention. I made comments to her myself, and when I looked at them collectively and K’s response to each, I started to feel a bit of unease. I felt the same when Pati was here. She was urged repeatedly to leave (with good reason given description of her circumstances) but I got the feeling she was venting her frustrations and loved the camaraderie here but was not going to leave. And now she is not here. Maybe that is not the reason, but it prompted me along with my feeling here about K’s position to consider my comments in offering experience and options but trying to stay away from that which could be felt as pressure and chase someone away from the help they need. Maybe I’m way off but it has been bothering me since Pati so I thought it worth mentioning.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Understood and good observation NA. It’s also reality that some people may never leave and that is ok. It may help them cope to be here and be “just enough” to maintain a semblance of security or safety. I had no energy to leave and it was a blessing (in a non religious way I say that because I can’t stand religious terms) he left. I just hate to think someone else can get to that point to be disengaged from, and be sick for so long. Fortunately, I’m back in full swing and hope this offers some hope. Once the tourniquet comes off the headache does indeed eventually go away.

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest NarcAngel,
            I concur with you regarding Pati’s situation (I sincerely hope she’s ok)
            However, I do not believe you chase or have chased anyone away
            Whether it be telling, advising, instructing, warning or even sympathising, it is always hard as we don’t know the whole story and the level someone is at

            Sadly, in relation to narcs, the truth hurts and some just can’t handle the truth
            As you know full well, most of us come here with extremely high emotional thinking and deep cuts, whereas most of us longer tudorites, our wounds have healed on varying degrees and bare the scars (many wounds reopen and sadly have to start the healing process again and again sometimes)
            I remember when I came here, Mr Tudor did a Dr Phil and told me like it is !
            Best advice ever! I thought, “you’re absolutely right” and I needed that
            If I had left then n there, I would not be where I am today
            You can’t wrap it cotton wool or bubble wrap

            What I luv about you NarcAngel, you’re clear as crystal, you make no bones, don’t pull any punches and you’re all about commonsense
            You are soft yet firm and you offer your experience n knowledge like no other
            I always look forward to your wisdom, humour, sarcastic wit and compassion
            I think you’re amazing, you have my utmost respect and you’re one of the reasons I luv narcsite !
            Please keep on keeping on 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. NarcAngel says:

            You are very kind and the feeling is mutual. They say it sometimes takes a village, and if that’s true, you are a lovely gazebo in the sunny heart of town and I am a short cut through the sketchy parts haha. We all have different messages and styles but so long as we all keep sharing our stories, experiences, and support, everyone who visits will find something or someone to identify with while they revel in the clear skies and excellent schooling that the Mayor provides. Most happy to see you.

          4. Mercy says:

            NA, This is a very thoughtful comment. I made a comment to someone not long ago and then after regretted it thinking “too soon, they’re not there yet”. I also remember being emotionally stuck in my relationship and feeling like I didn’t belong here sometimes. I felt like everyone was progressing but me. It was no fault of anyone, it was my own insecurities that made me feel that way. Don’t give up on Patti. If she decides to leave her husband she knows she has a support system here.

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest NarcAngel,
            Haha cute, thank you lovely one
            You’re uniqueness is what becomes you and I luv seeing your beautiful mask pop up
            Looks like I’m now a potato 🥔 😂
            Stay just as you are
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. WhoCares says:

        Sensible perspective NA – I think so many of us just want others not to make the same mistakes we made.

      3. Kristin says:

        You have the unique ability to read between the lines. I am so grateful for the help everyone has provided but I know that I cannot leave at this point. I am seeing things in a different light which has helped my ET but I have more work to do on myself and with HG. I know my hesitation comes across as an excuse but I am just not there yet. I have feared stating this because I do not want to come across as ungrateful or that I am not taking the advice to heart because I am. This site is my lifeblood.

        Thank you for seeing and understanding what I had difficulty bringing up myself. I am all in and will continue to move forward because I am with the best, HG and you all.

  3. Whitney says:

    The Narcs devalued me HG. But I am more valuable than the Narcs. 💙

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed you are Whitney.

      1. Whitney says:

        Thank you HG the God. You are the most valuable person in the world.

        I think empaths need Narc substitutes to focus their energy. For example working with foster children with ‘behaviour problems’ satisfied me for years. A good way to expend energy. I wanna get a shop keeper and do that again.

        1. FHyde says:

          Wow. Thats interesting because I’m an empath and im a mental health case worker for behaviorally challenged youth coming out of state mental institutions or corrections

          1. Whitney says:

            Wow I would love to do that job FHyde. What is it like?
            I don’t believe in the mental hospital or corrections for youth. Sad. They’ve been treated unhumanly their whole lives.

  4. Pingback: Malice ⋆ NarcTopia
  5. Violetta says:

    I dunno, there are times when calling someone a “latex clad wanker” seems perfectly reasonable.

    1. Kristin says:

      I completely agree Violetta!

  6. emc2gion says:

    Mr Tudor, I am curious, in terms of unleashing the malice, this part of yourself that needs to unleash, of all the differing empaths, family and contacts in your web, is there any part of you that wishes just to be accepted for this, your good side and bad, without judgement, just acceptance and a greater understanding. It is what it is, and why malice aligns with entropy, and chaos promotes growth. The energy and science behind why it is the way it is. I feel…..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes. This is what I am.

      1. Kristin says:

        Your family obviously never accepted you for who you are, always pushing you to be more. Dare I say that the people on this blog understand you because of the knowledge you have imparted. It would have fallen on your family’s deaf ears. It is difficult for me to read about the abuse you suffered but it has helped so many, thank you.

        1. emc2gion says:

          I too find it difficult to read, and when I read snippets of what has happened to Mr Tudor struggle emotionally, for me as a contagion empath, I visualise Mr Tudor as a child suffering and I see myself trying to shield, stop and protect what is happening to the little boy….it saddens me. Also because I know the strength of darkness that narcissistic energy can have on a child, so I feel the pain. However, recently I was taught the importance of entropy and chaos by chance from someone also very small, in the context of space and how the universe itself works. My brain applies that to this context and I understood better, the proverbial lightbulb moment switched on. Mr Tudor you have my empathy and understanding for what has happened to you, and why you are who you are, but also my gratitude for having the courage, intelligence, self awareness and insight and ability to share this, it has helped me and others immensely by understanding the reasons why, the behaviour, I understand myself more and your kind, it dissipates the confusion of past somewhat and helps healing.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you emc2gion.

  7. Intrepid Traveller says:

    HG do you still have days that you do this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do.

      1. Intrepid Traveller says:

        See, its that emotional thinking of mine again i suppose. There is me thinking that as You are here regularly being witty and encompassing to visitors and on IG you have an appealingly happy relationship so i think your fuel ship must be running on all cylinders but still you need days like this? Is that due to the need for contrast? If you were to put it into a need of positive vs negative fuel what would the split be?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, because of what is at my core. It is in part the need for contrast and what is there at the core of me so it surfaces from time to time.

      2. lisk says:

        Have you really told a neighbor to ‘get fucked’ as you describe?

        How is this Greater behavior? I thought you would be more calculated than that.

        1. HG Tudor says:


          Because I engaged in it. There was only he and I there, so no facade damage. It is done with The Stare which would stop the person in their tracks, not the lame growl of the Lesser.

          People need to know their place.

          He later came to see me apologising for upsetting me. He rationalised that my response, when I am otherwise polite and charming, must have meant that he disturbed me or caused a problem otherwise why else would I respond in that fashion. He of course, does not know what I am, therefore he goes to the wrong reason.

          1. lisk says:

            Ah, I see now.

            Silly me for not thinking that a Greater can calculate on the spot!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I operate mainly through calculation, but there I am also governed by instinct, but to a much lesser extent.

          3. lisk says:

            Thank you for clarifying.

          4. Violetta says:

            I’d’ve figured you were hungover or jonesing for caffeine. I know people who are worse than that when they’ve had their fix.

            Don’t think I’d apologize, though. Just avoid you and if you pretended not to remember it, I’d do the same.

          5. Violetta says:

            Erg ..UNTIL they’ve had their fix.

            And I was a professional copy editor.

          6. Violetta says:

            I cannot hide what I am. I must be sad when I have cause and smile at no man’s jests, eat when I have stomach and wait for no man’s leisure, sleep when I am drowsy and tend on no man’s business, laugh when I am merry and claw no man in his humor. …..though I cannot be said to be a flattering honest man, it must not be denied but I am a plain-dealing villain. I am trusted with a muzzle and enfranchised with a clog; therefore I have decreed not to sing in my cage. If I had my mouth, I would bite; if I had my liberty, I would do my liking. In the meantime, let me be that I am, and seek not to alter me.

            Don John, Much Ado About Nothing

      3. Lorelei says:

        But how is pro-social aligned with having days where dressing down a store clerk with over priced muffins makes sense?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because being pro social does not mean turning into being delightful to everybody. It means the adoption of alternative responses to meaningful actors. It also CANNOT override what sits at the core of what I am. It is naive to think that what drives me is somehow going to be arrested. If what I am dictates a dressing down is required to achieve what must be achieved, then that will occur. The store clerk is a tertiary source.

          1. Lorelei says:

            I’m usually embarrassed if I snap at someone. In fact, my ex should be embarrassed that his own children are developing unfavorable opinions. It’s like being let off a boat that is sinking when they come in the door from his house.

          2. Kristin says:

            Two questions, if you feel comfortable sharing.
            How is your ex with your 11 yo high functioning son (I hope I got the details correct?)
            HG may very well scold me for this one, but in your opinion, do you think your ex loves the children in his own way?

          3. Lorelei says:

            I’m comfortable sharing anything Kristin! My son is indeed high functioning, enough that I think he’d excel in medicine with ease. His dad is mostly excellent with him WHEN he wants fuel. Sadly it’s not frequent. I’m teaching my son to play golf, how pathetic is that? I mean it’s not, but it’s a dad thing. He is very pleasant with my son, but he doesn’t like the comments his dad makes about me. My girls are challenging and this is different. My 13 year old is extraordinarily strong and defiant. This challenges him so we know what this means. They fight a lot and his inept ability to connect renders his attempts to control as very resented. I’m connected so when I exert “control” it comes with a different flavor and is not poorly regarded. Frankly, I’m a rock star in my home. It was not always this way.
            I promise you can pull this off—just never say one bad thing about him to the kids. Never. Allow their opinions to shape and don’t nudge it. We owe it to them to make their own choices, my 19 year old wants her father badly. (He is dead) I don’t tell her what he was because she can’t handle it. Kids aren’t capable of understanding the distinction between cognitive and emotional empathy, most adults will never grasp it. My ex will never physically hurt the kids Kristin. It’s emotional damage. People that have emotional empathy do not have a behavioral pattern characterized in such a way. That is love—empathy which is genuine. Narcissists accessorize their lives with us to secure the prime aims. It’s not love. Would my ex jump in the water to save one of the kids? Yes. To maintain fulfillment of his prime aims. Would I? Yes, why? Because I want them to grow up healthy and happy. Therein rests the distinction. My father would go to the ends of the earth for me if he were alive. Did he love me? No. I was an accessory. I have leather purses that I make sure I condition every so often to keep the leather supple for removal from the shelf. It’s the same thing.
            Please think of the possibility of viewing “getting out” with less fear and with more of a sense of opportunity. Do exactly what HG says. Consult with he and your attorney in a group consult if needed.

          4. Kristin says:

            Thank you for your reply! I am working in the yard (nature’s Prozac) and when I’m done and look like I fell off the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, I’ll write back. 😉

          5. Lorelei says:

            No problem. I planted another bag of lily bulbs today and put more mulch down. I also took a quick walk in the woods and hung white fairy lights. It was actually packed at the park. I was getting tired quite a bit until more recently. I’ve entirely turned a corner in some ways, you too will have moments where there are demarcations in time where different positive events symbolize growth. It’s inevitable. The thing about the moments for me, is that it’s been a bit of a dimmer switch coming on. I notice looking back —moments where things were able to be visualized, and more and more came into focus gradually. My energy is fully restored. I think where my substantial decline occurred was due to the salami slicing into isolation coupled with a relentless harassment campaign. There was never a day off for a very long time. (Years of no support and not being spoken to or berated) Had I not had kids I would have quit excusing it years ago and left. It’s never been a matter of not being saucy—I truly felt I had to stay and endure it for the kids to have a picture perfect family. It was delusional. I have a fairly low threshold for putting up with blatant nonsense typically. It’s just that I didn’t know what I was putting up with, and especially after I got salami sliced into being tired. I believe this is why it’s taken so long to improve. It took years to get there and it’s a process getting out. Shit I was to do a MPH or JD program like 6 years ago and my collapse started. I lost a good 5 years. Be gentle and respect the time this takes. You are in much better condition than I was. It won’t take you long to feel terrific. Rip off the bandaid and get out as soon as you can. He’s a useless individual and you are worth gold.

          6. Kristin says:

            I too would have left had it not been for my children. Hind sight is 20/20 and his abuse left me in such a state of confusion. I kept asking myself why my memory was shot and why was I always so down. Honestly, I blocked so much of it out just to get through each day. I would say we have had maybe 3 good years and he was gone for 2 of them (military.) As you said, things are coming into focus gradually and I believe that is the mind’s way of coping as the mind can only handle so much.

            I have said previously that finding out he was a narc was a relief. It too took time to process but there is no going back. This may be a rudimentary example but I feel as though I am on a roller coaster. I am slowly climbing to the peak knowing that I will have to endure the dreaded stomach drop to the bottom. There will be a time of relief, many more twists and turns but I will eventually achieve peace as you and others have.

            As always, thank you Lorelei. xx

          7. Lorelei says:

            Awe Kristin—I couldn’t convert lbs to kg in my head during a trauma a few years back—had to scramble for my phone. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. Seriously, it was a defining moment. This is basically about as easy math as it gets. Lorelei is no longer in that place. I can’t believe it on some days.

          8. Kristin says:

            I think it is great that you are teaching your son to golf, not pathetic in the least. I think things can be even harder for teenagers because that is a difficult time in life as it is.

            You are right, it is emotional damage. Although my oldest (aspie) is now 23, he remembers the way his father treated me to include the late night arguments due to his drinking as he was a mean drunk. My son could be challenging at times and it threated the narc’s sense of control and it got ugly. He loves his father but has pulled away from him in recent years.

            My 16 yo daughter began calling him out on his behavior 2 years ago and it was then that my eyes began to open. A couple of months ago he told his best friend that Jussie Smollett was a narc and she leaned over to me and said, “it takes on to know one.” She still confronts him about his behavior mostly towards me and can get away with it to an extent but I have told her that it is not her responsibility because I don’t want her to carry that burden. She is head strong like he is, very smart and speaks her mind probably a lot like your 13 yo. I have discussed this with HG and he said the same as you about not saying anything negative about their father. They will form their own opinions and they do not need my input, their father does that all on his own.

            I appreciate your support and no-nonsense way of encouraging me and giving advice, you have helped me from the beginning. I have come a long way in the past 6 months when I first found HG. Now that I am not a basket case, I am able to absorb and understand so much more. I know who I am dealing with and no longer mourn what could have been. My ET is reducing as well as my fear and I am beginning to see it as an opportunity like you said. I continue to consult with HG, follow his advice and keep rereading/listening to the assistance packages. I have listened to the divorce package and dealing with a narc in court and really like your idea about a group consult with the attorney, great idea.

            Thank you so much for sharing your situation, it has really helped me. HG reminds me that this is a process and despite the challenges along the way, I am moving forward. Just a minute ago he came up and touched a big knot on my arm that I got today while working outside. It hurt so bad and I reacted by saying “fuck you.” He smiled that twisted grin and kept trying to do it again. I have been looking at him the past few months and think, I am going to divorce your sorry ass you bastard and you have no idea what is coming. I’d say that’s progress.

          9. WhoCares says:


            I enjoyed the conversation between you and Lorelei here – and it’s nice to read of your internal progress 💙

          10. Kristin says:

            Thank you WhoCares, you have been a great source of comfort and support! 😘

          11. WhoCares says:

            💜 I am one of several here pulling for you Kristin.

          12. Kristin says:

            Oh, tears of joy. You all are my life support as is HG. I see it as a blessing from God. 🧡💙 Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

          13. WhoCares says:

            Kristin – 💜

          14. WhoCares says:


            I see you have received much good advice here, on account of Renarde and Lorelei – and I wasn’t going to add further to spare you any overload, but then I changed my mind.

            I am not a planner – not in the way that other people are. Lol – I haven’t yet decided if that’s a tendency for good or for ill – but it may be because I (mostly) fair better thinking on my feet. My decisions (creatively and otherwise) form organically.
            The one thing I am sure is that (for the most part) I know my strengths and weaknesses. I also know my child very well.
            You know yourself well and you know your children. (In conjunction to that, having found HG’s work, you now know your narcissist better than ever – and what to predict.)

            Planning is good. Having a backup plan in the event that you have to put things into motion fast (especially with an abuser having physical tendencies) is better. Like Renarde was getting at; this could be a life saver. Anyone who is with a physical abuser should have an escape bag packed (hidden) and ready to go – leave it at a friend’s or family member’s place, if you fear it being discovered.
            As a mother, you fear for your children’s reaction to leaving the relationship with their father – I totally understand. Let’s be straight though: it’s going to hurt no matter how it is done. (My little guy was younger, had no idea what was going on, he just thought we were going for a walk to get ice cream.) But how you handle it, and how they perceive you handling it, will directly influence them. (I have a feeling you will handle it just fine, once you’re out and physically distant from him.)
            Going back to the way that I “planned” – it was really simple: mine and my son’s physical and emotional well-being came first. All other things came after – just because of that – they were *things* or something that is (eventually) replaceable (job, business etc.). That has been my constant focus; which may have cost me some financial stability but, again, I can weather that issue better than emotional instability…some people are different. And “planners” can have a tendency to get caught up in the details and projecting into the future too much – just sayin’…there will be things you cannot plan for and predict.
            I don’t what else to say, except to share a story (I seem to do this a lot lately).
            My son had a playground accident (towards the end of my entanglement) and got a small gash on his forehead. It looked way worse but after being cleaned up etc., it was a small, deep but clean cut that would require medical care. (He didn’t have a concussion, thankfully.)
            He was four and very upset at seeing his own blood for the first time.
            After the doctor examined him, she said it needed suturing and she asked me what I thought he would be better with: stitches or glue?
            (Once my son started to grasp the situation, he did NOT want to be there anymore.) I knew he would not be “better” with either option. In the moment I actually resented her for asking me to make the call, but then I was glad.
            Both would cause him discomfort and fear – but if there was any chance that the “glue” failed, and given his emotional reaction, it would be far worse (emotionally) if this procedure had to be done twice – or if the glue let go and the cut bled again that would have been far more traumatic for him. So I chose stitches. Yes, it required two male nurses to hold him down and steady, because he could see the doctor approach with suturing implements and he was screaming for me at the top of his lungs (she gave him a local anesthetic and I was right there with him the whole time.) But, when it was done, it was done. And staff gave him a popsicle.
            Yes, he has a small scar but his hair often hides it. What he *remembers* is the blood when the gash happened, but he doesn’t remember the stitching. (Even though we had to go back and get them out.)
            My point is, children are resilient. And you know yours best – plus, since you are child-focused, you will know how to do right by them. Add you will have added insight with HG’s expertise.

          15. Kristin says:

            I agree with everything you have said and I like the analogy/story of your son’s accident. I wish I was a fly by the seat of my pants kind of girl but I’m not. My need to plan and be prepared has prolonged doing what I needed to do in the past. However, this is very important because of the example I need to be for my children.

            I too know my strengths and weaknesses and realize I need to be pushed out of my comforts zone every once and a while and that is what I am gaining here. Thank you for taking the time to give me much needed advice, I am getting there. 😊

          16. WhoCares says:

            Kristin –
            ” I wish I was a fly by the seat of my pants kind of girl but I’m not.”

            Lol, I wish I was less of a fly by the seat of my pants kind of girl sometimes.

            Why are we never happy with what we are dealt?

            The grass is always greener …

            Girls with curly hair want straight hair; the straight haired girls want curls…

            Sorry. I am just ranting now.

            I think that it’s the narcissist’s legacy that we are never *enough.*

          17. Kristin says:

            Agreed! Rant away 😄

          18. WhoCares says:

            Kristin – on the subject of ranting. I thought I saw somewhere (but can’t find the comment now) that you said moving forward you were not going to rant here…it was a follow up reply to one of the many advice comments. Anyway, don’t let anyone stop you from ranting! If we see you ranting, some of us want to immediately help solve the problem (because we feel your pain) but sometimes you just need to vent, and we definitely know how to listen and commiserate – it is not an easy process no matter where you are at.(And besides, ranting here might save you fueling your narcissist at times.)
            One other thing – I realized after my comment on planning: I do actually plan. Quite extensively actually. I was gaslighting myself!
            I always plan ahead in my job etc… because in addition to wanting to please the client, I don’t like looking incompetent! But my work history has also taught me how to troubleshoot in the moment, while under pressure. And my narcissists have taught me that I can’t rely on others and to function with limited resources (therefore I function more easily with creativity and resourcefulness.)
            With your business skills, I can likely see why you’re a planner and how that works best for you!

          19. Kristin says:

            You are absolutely right. When I see people hurting on this site I immediately want to reach out and encourage them, just like you all have done for me. I do not want to appear as a complainer because we all know that things will not change until I leave. It also boils down to the fact that I have always been the one to help and am more comfortable in that role but this is different and I will gladly take all the advice I receive.

            “One other thing – I realized after my comment on planning: I do actually plan. Quite extensively actually. I was gaslighting myself!” You are too funny and I’m glad you too see the benefits of planning! Where else could you admit to gaslighting yourself and see the irony of it all! Thank you WhoCares 🙂

          20. WhoCares says:

            ” It also boils down to the fact that I have always been the one to help and am more comfortable in that role but this is different and I will gladly take all the advice I receive.”

            The role switch is hard. Agreed!

          21. Lorelei says:

            Glad you are improving. You’ll
            do yourself a lot of favors if the break you make involves never speaking to him again. Not one word, ever. You don’t have to. I’ll never speak to my ex again. Nothing he says is pleasant—everything is a manipulation and his disposition is also essentially garbage. He was on speaker phone ranting about “N….” last summer in front of the kids. (You mentioned the Smollett individual) Naturally one of their friends was standing there and these insults impacted her. He’s foul and terribly disordered. If I saw a man in a store carrying on similarly I’d not speak to him, my ex is afforded no differently. His new life is a joke and it’s ok with me that I’ve been made out to be difficult or snobby, or crazy, or drunk, or whatever. I have things ahead inclusive of all that I have been, am, and will be. I’m not going to be liked by all whether it be a narcissist & his village or by some others. I don’t like everyone either—some very nice people I don’t like. Remember too, when the smearing starts to think about this. Read flying monkeys before you make the break. We, as non narcissists do not rant about tearing people down unless provoked and maybe quite temporarily. Right? The smear campaign impact will seem larger than it is because the majority of the population is normal or empathic, therefore, it accords that most people won’t be overly engaged like it feels they are to you. The narcissists as well, seriously they don’t even overly concern themselves to be frank! Your mind (ET) will cause you to view circumstances in a way that is distorted. Remember this as it will be a helpful reminder.
            Yesterday, I was in the store. A man was berating staff in an extremely cold, threatening but disciplined voice about how to use a grill on display. (A grown man should figure this out!) He’d achieved the attention of half the employees. Standing around catering to his need for control. It was quite obvious to me he was a disordered individual. One girl I know from being in the store latched onto me to get away. She didn’t say it but I apologized for what I’d seen and she was clearly upset and shared how awful he’d been. In maybe minutes he upset her Kristin, obvious right? So we’ve had long term relationships with the same type of person—-it’s no wonder we were both scrambled up quite a bit! This serves to reinforce that you don’t have to speak to such individuals. You don’t talk to a biting dog, you put them in a shelter to maintain your civic duty and you walk away. He is best viewed as a dog that attacks people and he needs put in his place which is away from you. I have many of the concerns you’ve had. Financial etc. It has all worked out. I live in a modest home to keep the kids educated properly, and have not missed a meal since he left. In fact, my finances are strategically done to appear in a certain manner. (Legally of course) Be strategic but be legal about it. I’m sure HG would conference with your attorney when/if needed. It’s impressive you are able to strategize ahead of time, what an excellent position to be in. I know I’m quite silly quite often, but can be very serious about these matters. I’m actually embarking into a more serious chapter but this is not the time to discuss—I just mention to illustrate that this process is segmented, a little complicated, and quite do-able. You won’t just be ok, you will be fabulous.

          22. Kristin says:

            Great advice as always Lorelei.
            I have taken the smear campaign to heart as well as not showing emotion. I dread it BUT I know it will be a relief as I won’t have to put on my own facade in order to keep the peace, for the time being. Thank you.

          23. Lorelei says:

            No one wants to be around my ex except for his hoodwinked family anyway—they’ve always regarded me as a snob anyway so they can fuck right off. Who works with vulnerable populations by choice and volunteers with unwed mothers? Not them. I may have some nuances that are not very humble appearing, but at the end of the day I walk the walk. They are not people I choose to care about. His mother didn’t even have the wherewithal to contact my children when their grandmother died. Her etiquette is astoundingly poor. It’s customary to send flowers and condolences to the children.

          24. Lorelei says:

            I hesitate saying this because I don’t know all of your circumstances, nor are they my business. But.. There will never be a perfect day to leave. Eventually the bandaid comes off or not. You can do this. I think heightened ET can obscure the appearance of when things are ready. One can only hide so much money. Or prepare business details so much. It is going to be very difficult whether you do it next week or in two months. (I left my first ex spouse) It’s brutal but you are not getting any younger. You can do it. You never have to speak to him again. I understand preparation but I know misery even better. One day miserable is worth a lot in terms of quality of life, and this is immeasurable. He sounds like a dick.

          25. Kristin says:

            I appreciate your candor and have told HG that I need tough love and for him to call me out on my excuses so join the club! You have said exactly what my mother and HG have told me. She is my biggest supporter and when I tell her about my consultations with HG she always agrees because she has told me the same for years. She cannot stand the narc and I doubted her advice because she was so emotionally involved. She wants me out asap so I can have a few good years.

            I know there is never a good time to leave, it will be painful whenever the band-Aid is removed. You must have been reading my mind. I spent another day working in the yard and all I could think about was how the hell are we going to move out of this house because of all the stuff and more importantly, the business. ET at its finest and I tend to get wrapped around the axel about the stupid details because I am such a planner. I sound so very simple minded worrying about such things and am trying to put them out of my mind.

            The other week I inadvertently printed out notes for my consult with HG. When I went to the office there was a post it note on it that said, “I saw this” from my daughter. I almost there up on the spot. Thankfully the notes were benign but they did mention divorce and me reading “your articles”, HG was not mentioned. I spoke with her and she was very upset because everything she has known will get uprooted. Since she called him a narcissist a while back, I confirmed this only for her to say, can’t he get help and I think everyone can change. She sees his abuse and I know it stresses her out. HG and I have discussed this and like you both said, I will NOT bring up what he is again, she has to process it all on her own. Now that I have hindsight I am glad that it happened because the seed has been planted and when it happens it won’t come as a complete shock to her. She has 2 more years of high school left and I am torn as to when to pull the rug out from her, my son and me.

            It is literally all I think about and there hasn’t been a day when I am not on this site. Recently I have actually been a little excited about the prospect of being free and know that it will all work out. He has been “nice” over the past week so I think, this is a respite but, he has hurt me physically. What a cluster, ET sucks. I am given daily reminders of how sick he is and why I need to leave but I am so concerned about my daughter and what this will do to her at this time in her life. The flip side of the coin is what his abuse towards me is doing to her.

            I have come light years and know HG will get me where I need to be as well as the support of you and many others. I have officially written a book here but so appreciate your reply, it has helped as always. 😊

          26. Lorelei says:

            Kristin—I’m glad your mother supports you. Mine did not. (Until much later)
            —You stay and you may end up unable to work in the yard. I’ve been there.
            You move by packing one box at a time, or hiring packers.
            My house has been under remodel for months—it’s one day at a time. Nothing happens in a day, this will be no different.
            I plan everything too, and some shit you manage on the fly. This will be such an occasion. At any moment (right now in fact)I can get a gun shot walk in the door I’m 15 feet from. (Or multiple and it happens, and it’s just me) I know it can happen and I’m ready. It’s planning under the best circumstances and you are well equipped to manage them. Your daughter will be uprooted from all she’s known. Good. She needs to be. The deplorable environment seems maybe comfortable to you both—but it’s because you are BOTH accustomed to horse shit—it’s an abnormal normal. You are setting an example which is positive when you go. His behavior is not a mystery. HG can almost verbatim tell you his next move each step of the way. You are in your own way and don’t have to stay there. Smokers set quit dates, do it. It’s your addiction, not just his narcissism.💗

          27. Kristin says:

            You are 100% correct as usual.

            “Your daughter will be uprooted from all she’s known. Good. She needs to be. The deplorable environment seems maybe comfortable to you both—but it’s because you are BOTH accustomed to horse shit—it’s an abnormal normal.” How many times has my mom said that to me over the years? My children will survive and see that I am strong and not kowtowing to their POS father.

            I promise I am working toward leaving one step at a time. Just a month ago I was thinking I will leave in two years after she graduates, but after talking with HG I realized that it was ridiculous and I know mentally I won’t survive and need to be strong for me and the kids.

            I will not continue to complain about my situation because logically it will not change until I leave. The advice I receive from HG and you all is so comforting and is helping me to continue to moving forward.

            I so appreciate the time you have taken to encourage me and to not sugar coat what will happen. Your advice has not fallen on deaf ears, thank you. XX

          28. Lorelei says:

            Awe Kristin—I too thought I’d make it until
            graduation for my youngest. Ask HG the shape I was in when I got here. I don’t care how candid he may be but I don’t care. And that was months after the separation, as I actually didn’t get much better at that time. I was maybe months away from serious illness/hospitalization. You are no where near there but you are miserable. It is highly unlikely a day will come where you wake up, walk out and birds are singing. I encourage you to set a date, not far off, and it is your business absolutely but everyone is impacted by our decisions as parents. I have a lifetime of clean up potentially, due to the impacts of my indecisiveness & own behavior on one of my children. You have a 16 year old? So you have only a few years to model how to kick ass. So reframe it as such, now you are in a hurry. The lesson is better taught over two years than one or just a few months.. They adapt quickly—my kids have already nearly forgotten the disarray & sleeping all the time.. This is what they take with them, not that heap of a person asleep and/or drinking all the time. I used to be concerned about a million things and none of it was as essential as my mental health & the kids mental health. College will somehow be paid for. The boxes packed, papers signed.. The lessons you teach right now will define your legacy with your children.

          29. Kristin says:

            I will defiantly reread your comments because they address my concerns and you have shown me that, although I will go through hell, that it all works out. You are right, my mental health is more important that the inconsequential things that I worry about.

            I know that my daughter may very well blame me for taking the step but she understands what I/we have been through and will work it out in her own time. She loves her father but we are very close and she knows she can come to me without judgment. It will be a new normal for all of us but we will survive.

            “The lessons you teach right now will define your legacy with your children.” Yes, she is very pro women and I want to show her that I am strong, not just a woman that will tolerate being abused. This brings tears to my eyes because of the impact on her and I am very conflict averse. I will wrap my head around what you have said and take it to heart. Thank you!!

          30. Lorelei says:

            Kristin—glad you found it helpful. You are really stuck. Looking back I needed to be with a few safe people to get over the hump. It was hard ripping off the band aid with my first ex. I had support in the form of a few friends. You don’t have to go through hell, this is the mistake. You have been through the worst part. Your ET is your current hell. How are you going to go through hell if you aren’t talking to him or can’t see him? You don’t have to incessantly explain yourself to your children either. They deserve an occasional brief update and explanation so they feel safe. In a 24 hour day this may encompass 30 min 3x a week in terms of discussion. In one day it’s less than 5% of your time—such a discussion that is. You won’t know to what extent he has a fit (all of the time) if you don’t discuss it with many people. You don’t have to hear about it. Your attorney can manage this. Have a person to aid the children to adjunct your discussions. They will need some coaching because he will triangulate. It’s ok to explain triangulation to them in a non-judgmental way. I’m sure HG can sit through this with you by means of an uptick in consults to help during this time. Plan boundaries for yourself. You don’t have to interface with, talk to, look at him. Make your attorney work. The narcissist is always (eventually) forced to go elsewhere for fuel. The kids will be subject to this fuel acquisition attempt for a bit and occasionally after the big event, but this is where you capitalize on good grace & manners. This is the stuff lessons are made of. They deserve the opportunity of seeing an end to toxicity, and their mother doing it with regal poise. Why is moving hell? It can be fun to get rid of the old and sabotaging dysfunction is freeing. Adopting a new perspective will be most quintessentially your strength. So, last night, what If I sat and ruminated about what a mess a few people shoved out of cars would be? It was just me for a brief while,a bit unusual but I won’t get into that.. What if I sat for that time frame and thought over and over about it. Truthfully, I don’t really mind these scenarios but for sake of example.. What if I thought of this for hours? The what if.. Would this be productive? Does it benefit anyone? If so, how? It does not. If a huge disaster was hurled out of the car I would at that time deploy energy, call for back up.. Done and over in minutes. My job is done. I have a really easy job frankly. I don’t have the skills or job title to perform surgery. Nor do you. You don’t have to coddle and operate on anyone. If he throws a brick a window breaks. What do you do? Call the window people. That’s a 20 minute discussion. In your 24 hour day what percentage of your time encompasses enlisting the window company to fix this malign Hoover? You already have done a ND. You should know what his behaviors are. It’s demystifying to have this information. Is he a tiger or a kitten? You have some say in defining what has been a tiger will now be.. He’s just a kitten—an upper lesser. Nothing more, nothing less. A bitey & scratchy one. Do you pick it up? No. I thought my ex had some Machiavellian power to take my children. Turns out he’d piss his pants in the dark. His behavior (as I am quiet) defines him. You can do this, you are ready, and no one is going to drop you mid-trajectory, that another person won’t step in and help remedy. Your daughter will potentially blame you more for staying and teaching that acquiescence is okay. Look where my mother’s example got me? Break the cycle because it is a cycle. You have the strength, intelligence and energy.

          31. Kristin says:

            You have put so much time and energy into helping me, just let me know where to send the check! As I told Renarde, the timing is perfect and I am taking notes on what you have advised so I can discuss further with HG and the attorney.

            I do not have the desire to speak about this with friends and am not afraid of being smeared. I will be able to keep a poker face because I have feigned happiness (and not very well) for too many years. I am ready to be free and am proud of myself for how far I have come. I feel so much stronger after reading your advice and that of everyone else and it reduces my ET.

            It is such a gift to have my new “friends” on this site and I know for a fact, had I not found HG, I would not have made it.

            Thank you again for sharing your situation and for being tough with me, I need a kick in the pants every now and then! Blessings to you.

          32. Lorelei says:

            You are welcome. To be blunt—my friend (a mentor) at the time told me to shit or get off the pot. He’s also a flaming narc but he’s useful. I still can’t believe how exhausted I got with my ex. It was just a perfect recipe. Kids coupled with exhaustion—you just don’t need to visit a place where you are unable to get out.

          33. Lorelei says:

            Kristin, I wasn’t really alive and awake until now and know I saw this reply earlier but can’t recall if I sent anything back! Do you ever make Heath bar cake? I had to get the ingredients and it woke me up going into retail hell. HG doesn’t like baking banter but anyway.. Think of the smearing as child play. We tell our kids not to do it and here is a grown adult doing it! For my ex it is the nourishing of a seed of how “difficult” I am. His family already thought I was high maintenance (which I am the antithesis of..) and he takes grains of this and makes them into elephants. So, this gives maybe a sense of how they capitalize on pre-conceived agenda items. You have a sense of what to look forward to. They do better when they make gains on plausible information. There is also the beauty of being anonymous here, you can say whatever you want. I feel as connected to people on here I’ve never met as people in my real life in a way. It is funny concept really. You will be fine Kristin, but you have to pull the trigger on your own as no one can do it for you. I promise it will be okay, you just have to execute a plan. Don’t be here for a few years please and still be waiting and waiting—we do not know how long we have on this earth and freedom is priceless. People fight wars to be free because it is worth it.

          34. Kristin says:

            I agree with everything you have said and I like the analogy/story of your son’s accident. I wish I was a fly by the seat of my pants kind of girl but I’m not. My need to plan and be prepared has prolonged doing what I needed to do in the past. However, this is very important because of the example I need to be for my children.

            I too know my strengths and weaknesses and realize I need to be pushed out of my comforts zone every once and a while and that is what I am gaining here. Thank you for taking the time to give me much needed advice, I am getting there. 😊

          35. Lorelei says:

            At least we aren’t lower lessers Kristin! They can’t plan to keep mustard in the fridge! Listen—at some point planning becomes OCD. You are going to need to fly by the seat of your pants on this a little. That’s why I gave the work example. You know the genre of predictably unpredictable behaviors now. You are capable. No one here is going to be unavailable to help you.

          36. Kristin says:

            Thanks Lorelei, I’m OCD as it is but will push it away 😉 Preparing to fly by the seat of my pants!

          37. Lorelei says:

            Kristin, I think that reply went through before I was finished. I was going to add, he sounds like a bully so be content to know that you don’t have to ever be around him. Ever. If he makes any insinuation get a restraining order.

          38. Renarde says:


            I was once exactly where you were.

            I know you are concerned about the when is the right time but honestly, it needs to be as quick as possible.

            The ONLY caveat I’d say is if your children are in exam year. And I mean major exams. However if there was any violence, you take them and run. But you know that.

            Look, kids are resilient. And you are going to be free!

            When you do leave, you will notice a positive change in your health. Physical. Mental will take time.

            Be prepared for serious underhand dirty tactics.

            I made, the ignorance, the monumental mistake of thinking the ex and I could be friends. Your ET will run very high on this one.

            Does he know?

          39. Kristin says:


            Thank you. I know him and have had delusional thinking that he will work with me for the kids (ET.) Although he has known I have not been happy for years, he has no idea that I am consulting with HG and planning, it would be disastrous. I know it will be ugly but after being with him for so long the pain will be temporary and an end will be in sight.

            “When you do leave, you will notice a positive change in your health. Physical. Mental will take time.
            Be prepared for serious underhand dirty tactics.
            You are correct, I know the peace I feel mentally and physically when he travels. I am aware when my ET is high and I do my best to change my mind set. What would I do without the support of those like you who have been exactly where I am? I will get there because there is no turning back. Thank you again for your support and for sharing your experience. 💜

          40. Renarde says:


            It always gladdens my heart when someone who has now ‘got it’ and is now planning the escape. You’ve actually made thr hardest step, you know.

            If he’s a MM, which I strongly believe he is, you will get the full roll out of manips. Be prepared.

            Lovely, YOU WILL fuck up. And it’s fine that you will. You are fully human. Come back, talk to us. We are here.

            Pick yourself up. Dust yourself off and remember, you have the edge.

            He will rant, wail, scream, tell you he loves you, cannot survive without you and all of the bollocks.

            Expect another woman to suddenly appear. But you are now done so let him give her the GP whilst you stich yourself together.

            I hear this refrain, ‘Be kind with yourself, take hot baths etc’

            No. You educate yourself. Which you have done. Well done on you. 💛🎩🦊

          41. Kristin says:

            Thank you so much. I marvel at what you have been through and although my situation doesn’t come close, I suppose it is all relative.

            “He will rant, wail, scream, tell you he loves you, cannot survive without you and all of the bollocks.” He is a ULN and I fully expect this and more.
            “It always gladdens my heart when someone who has now ‘got it’ and is now planning the escape. You’ve actually made the hardest step, you know.” I believe you are correct about the hardest step and I hope those that are at the beginning stages as I was will read what you have said and be encouraged to keep moving forward.

            I know I can always count on HG and you all, it is what gets me through. XX

          42. Renarde says:


            If hes a ULN then be very careful, you poor love. Expect violence. When it comes down to it. He will flip on a dime.

            I get you. You will see narcs who whenever you say this or that, they will always, always have a ‘better’ story. And that’s the way he will smear you.

            Minimise you. And your trauma. Ignore them. Twats. The minute it flags with these people. Delete. Block. Cut the head off the Hydra.

            Go to the best of the best. Us.

            Now sending you a great big hug Soldier.


          43. Kristin says:

            Thank you, I know you get it. As I will tell Lorelei, you have given me things to think about and to discuss with HG at our next consult and notes for the lawyer. Over the past 2 weeks I decided that I need to have a serious divorce discussion with HG so the timing of your advice is perfect. You all can see things that I can’t because I am in the middle of it all.
            I would not be surprised if he got violent when it all goes down because he has hit me for less. This will destroy him but I will be prepared. He can smear me all he wants because I don’t care what anyone thinks, they have not lived it. I guess that is an advantage to having been worn down for so long, I just don’t give a shit anymore.
            You all ARE the best and I am more grateful than you know 🥰

          44. Renarde says:


            What you have just said has DEEPLY bothered me.

            You are essentially saying he has been physically violent in the past.

            You need to get out. Right now. Fuck the lockdown. Its THAT serious.

            Forget about the smear. Pack the bags and send him on an errand. When his back his turned, RUN.

            And I mean it, run. Get out.

            He will and I guarantee it, have noticed the energy has changed.

            Have you somewhere to go to? Family? Friends?

            If you have the time, gather your children’s passports and other important documents. Then flee. Ignore birth certs.

            Docs would be mortgage or rental agreements, any insurance and fuck any credit agreements or anything else.

            You do not understand how precarious a situation you are now in.

            So wallet, change of clothes for you and kids.

            I also guarantee he will have been in your laptop and phone. You’ll have to junk them unless you know IT.

            If you cant get out then the minute he starts you call the police and have him arrested. Get him removed. Tell the police your history and that you do not want him back. Then change the locks.

            It will not stop him of course so then you call the Police out again.

            You must be very brave. Forget about money or finances or debt. Either you go or he does.

            Things can be replaced. Life cannot. Take it from one who knows.

            Get out.

            If he attempts entry after hes been put in the cells then its all the more ammo for the police.

            I am so sorry this is happening to you.

            At Beltane, I am sending you so much energy.

            And massive hugs x

          45. Kristin says:

            Oh Renarde, thank you for your concern. I know you will think I am in denial but he has not hit me in a couple of years. I will discuss with HG and attorney when the time comes in regard to recording everything when the time comes.

            My son has extreme OCD and his meds have to be carefully managed, the situation is so very complicated. He is very smart and independent but he is afraid of his own family’s germs and won’t come within a country mile of us. He works and will spend time with friends and family but, as we know, OCD is not logical and every situation is different. I would rather this than if he were afraid of everyone else’s germs and would not leave the house. It is a balancing act and he would freak out if I just left and would not come with me. He will get violent out of anger or if he does not take his meds and I am the one that manages it and that he is closest to.

            Now the world knows it all. It was not a mistake that I found HG and although this will be very difficult, I am getting there. I know you are dealing with their own issues and I appreciate the time you have taken to help me. 😘

            PS. Love your new photo, very flattering.

          46. Renarde says:


            I’m of a mind that all couples can have a bit of an argy bargy from time to time. But true DV isnt like that.

            You’re ET is now running rampant. I’m glad hes not hit you for a while but he will and I guarantee HE WILL if you leave and tell him to his face.

            Attorney. Have you got one? A lot are absolute cunts. Pick wisely. Go for a woman who knows.

            You’re situation is more complicated than I knew. I’m sorry to hear about your son. That must be a worry. Big one.

            However. If he works he must be an adult therefore its not like fleeing with a pre teen.

            In your c

          47. Renarde says:


            I’m of a mind that all couples can have a bit of an argy bargy from time to time. But true DV isnt like that.

            You’re ET is now running rampant. I’m glad hes not hit you for a while but he will and I guarantee HE WILL if you leave and tell him to his face.

            Attorney. Have you got one? A lot are absolute cunts. Pick wisely. Go for a woman who knows.

            You’re situation is more complicated than I knew. I’m sorry to hear about your son. That must be a worry. Big one.

            However. If he works he must be an adult therefore its not like fleeing with a pre teen.

            In your case, I’d recommend document everything. Timeline. When he hit you and the circumstances. Do you work? If you do keep the journal there. Do it in your lunch hour.

            This sentence does not make logical sense

            He would freak out if I left and wouldn’t come with me.

            Please, I invite you to revisit these words.

            He has a choice. He either goes or stays. That’s harsh but OCD does not mean he has a mental disability. Not in the truest sense of the word. I empathise though. It must be horrendous to have OCD. I have a very mild form myself. Worse when I was younger. It came back. Always about my bag, my wallet, my keys and my phone. I’d even dream of losing one or all. So I’d check, check, check. Funnily enough it was only today I’d realised I’d stopped checking. But last night I had another dream I’d lost my phone. Of course it’s right here.

            I think you’ll find that once he is out of your life your son will begin to improve.

          48. Kristin says:

            Thank you my dear, I accept the “denial” diagnosis and I am not being a smart ass in saying that and, yes, my ET is sky high right now. I am an empath and I like who I am but I know that it is detrimental to my wellbeing at this point. I constantly battle my ET and what comes with being an empath BUT I am not giving up. I know my strengths but more importantly I know my weaknesses and you all are truly helping me despite my hesitation and I want to make that clear. I will not continue to vent about my situation, I know what I am dealing with but will continue to ask for advice when needed.
            I live 30 minutes from a well know city. There is an attorney in my county who is the best and basically has the monopoly on divorce in this area. My friend who is in the process up divorcing her narc husband is using him and has been telling me what to expect which helps me wrap my mind around it all. He said that the judges do not like attorneys from the city which is good for me. She told me yesterday that I need to consult with him ASAP so he can guide me and, more importantly, so that the narc will not be able to use him in the future.
            I have not documented his abuse in the past and I can begin now but know it is he said she said, the attorney wants concrete evidence. I wanted to claim unreconcilable differences but I will ask him. Documentation could not hurt and is another arsenal in my defense. I work from home with the narc so I am able to read HG’s work/blog every day. If I had a job outside of the home it would be near impossible.
            My son has Asperger’s and, as I had mentioned, is prone to outbursts that the neighbors have witnessed on more than one occasion. His is very empathetic and father’s behavior has definitely affected him over the years. I agree, when he is gone, it will help my son. I will talk with the psychiatrist about this, he will be able to guide me.

            Take care of yourself Renarde, and please know how grateful I am. 🥰

          49. Renarde says:


            I take your thanks. Bless you. X

            It seems to me that you are a very strong and intelligent woman. Who has suffered so much. Now, the hurt and pain needs to be put in a box.

            This is not standard counselling therapy. You, let it all out etc. But not right now. Ok?

            Points that worry me are only one solicitor. In the uk, any solicitor will run a background check to ensure the firm hasnt got both parties on the books. But how do you know the firm isn’t bent?

            I get you right now, I’ve encountered and hes going to get his arse sued off.

            As to concrete evidence. That’s fucking bullshit and you know it. You’re so called attorney is a piece of shit. I had 10 years of coercive control. Can’t prove shit. Doesnt mean it didnt happen.

            In my opinion, an attorney that says that needs to be dropped from a great height. Preferably off the nearest balcony.

            Concrete evidence. Fucking hell. I submitted a picture of my black eye and my injured arm plus police reports. Nothing was done.

            I’m afraid my love, that they simply do not care.

            So your son is an adult? Then your duties as legal mother have now been discharged.

            Now you look to yourself. Your son is not mentally incapacitated. He is capable of choices. He may not choose to live with you but I guarantee he will do once left with his father. Less than two weeks.

            Attorneys only want shit they can prove so they can have their successful day in court. Remember, when you engage with the legal profession, most are unaware narcs.

            You need to speak again to HG. You have understandable very high ET right now. I cannot imagine what you are going through.

            So, on reducing your ET and ER. Well, hes just a silly cunt, isnt he? I mean, tosser. A prat. An idiot. Not worthy of the steam off your piss.

            Drop him. Get out. Stay out.

            Sending you much love and hugs x

          50. Kristin says:

            “Now, the hurt and pain needs to be put in a box.” I agree and feel like I have done that because I am dead inside regarding him. I mourned what could have been when I found out he was a narc but I am past that now. Thanks to HG I feel like I am shielded because I see his behavior for what it is, he is a narc and it could not be any clearer.
            I have not consulted with the attorney yet so I am getting my information about what he says from my friend who is using him to divorce her ULN. “Concrete evidence” were my words but I got the impression that you have to prove abuse and that is difficult and you submitted photos and police reports and got nowhere. You are right, they do not care, it is like a business transaction, they want the facts and the judge will have the final say as to what happens. I agree, most are probably narcs unaware, mine is an attorney, go figure.

            “So, on reducing your ET and ER. Well, he’s just a silly cunt, isn’t he? I mean, tosser. A prat. An idiot. Not worthy of the steam off your piss.” You make me laugh, those are perfect! He actually admits that he is a dick and has been one for a long time. I’m afraid that is hardly the term that comes to mind when I go off in my head. You are awesome Renarde, thank you. I will update when I speak with the attorney myself.
            I hope you are doing well. XX

          51. Renarde says:


            I have tended to find the judges are better. Very balanced. But in my case, I tied the hands of the judge just to stop my daughters decline in her mental health through the stress of it. Let alone mone. This was after I’d battled for nearly two years. No one was listening. It was all there in the court bundle.

            It’s funny how some Ns will come out with some words sometime which makes you think they genuinely can reflect in their actions. Most like a pity play theyve picked up somewhere else.

            With ER, you will get there. Finally youte ET becomes reduced but not eliminated. LT begins to take over but essentially, we will always be divided. But that’s what makes us human.

            Thankyou for your compliment. You are too! You are in a far better position than I was post leaving because you know what he is and I didnt.

            A tricky day yesterday as I was bothered again by the UMS (proxy Hoover. When I recieved it thoroughly went off like a rocket to my friend. Venting) but am better now. It did deplete my energy but it’s coming back. x

          52. Lorelei says:

            Marriage is idiotic anyway. I’d be hard pressed to offer someone a drawer. Someone on the regular in my space is like nails on a chalkboard. I am territorial and very private in my real life.

          53. Renarde says:

            Good for you Lorelei. Keep it that way x

          54. Kristin says:

            I am glad you are better today. You have been through hell and back and are proof of two things. This site is perfect for those in any stage of entanglement or disengagement and like HG says, it does not stop until one of you is gone. You are very strong and are being tested but I know you will overcome this challenge too. It is healthy to let it all out and thankfully you have a friend that will listen. I hope your energy has returned!

          55. Renarde says:


            So many kind and lovely words. Thank you.

            I will, as you will, hey through this. Sometimes it looks like the end is impossible. But let me place it another way.

            Every day is a gift. So the UMS used to say, Ren, you live in the future and I live in the now. We were both right and both wrong.

            I say, take every day as it comes but always plan for the future.

            I’m sure I’m splitting a metaphor here but I think you are hopefully catch my drift?

          56. Kristin says:

            Every day IS a gift and although we can plan for the future we need to live in the moment. That is very wise advice and a great reminder when I try to figure out the future. Thank you, my friend. Beautiful avatar photo too! XX 🥰

          57. Renarde says:


            So kind. One from the vaults.

            Keep on fighting the good fight, my friend x

          58. Kristin says:

            Same to you Renarde. It has been very nice speaking with you! 😊

          59. Lorelei says:

            Dear Kristin—sometimes it’s almost easier to be in a no fault divorce state. I understand that this is difficult. Please don’t stop venting. This isn’t a venue only afforded to those that are post separation. I’m hesitant to mention ongoing relationships with narcissists at times because they become almost evil by perception. (I have a few friends—not a current romantic partner) Frankly, HG’s work helps understand the dynamic better & especially the unusual boundaries at times. I’ve cut out many—but a few are important to me. One is a second dad, he’s a retired surgeon in his 80’s. He is absolutely an asset to us. He loves to do things with us and he is a grandfather figure to my children. Sometimes the freedom is in the understanding of our fuel matrix position. My only concern is that by staying you can document abuse. Please explore this concept with HG.

          60. Lorelei says:

            Oh and to clarify Kristin—I know you aren’t staying TO document abuse per se.. It’s just that the occurrence of it is likely upsetting so even more reason to post and vent!
            I was “stuck” in a high school near a well known city in a southern state once upon a time. I love this southern state. (Your testimonial gave you away!) I love a particular island where a charismatic, now deceased, former president’s son married in a little church.I went on a surprisingly rough back packing trip on this island. We were not well prepared and got eaten alive by bugs. It sucked but it was beautiful as the beaches were ours. The single hotel on the island and the bike rentals stand out as absolutely quaint. An adjacent state afforded me the opportunity to swim in caves. Also, my known disdain for horses was acquired in a town outside of a well known city! A town that starts with a common man’s first name. Shit, this is knowing Lorelei part one.!! I like rough camping Kristin—I’m Amazon bound and I hope I get wrapped up by big bugs and snakes! This excursion is a goal for 2022. At least make a pleasant & fun goal for the future—look forward to something please! Keep posting, all of it. There is no pressure, only concern for your wellness.

          61. Kristin says:

            Did I say Georgia? I meant Minnesota 😅. Well, it is all out there now, I might as well post my address and start a Narcsite pen pal club. We have most likely been to many of the same spots. You sound like me, I like to rough it and I think an Amazon adventure is awesome. The more I am outside and in nature the happier I am. Keep us updated on your future adventures.

            As you probably know, I am not in a no-fault state. I began documenting the abuse but I will be talking to HG and the attorney to see if it is even worth it. I don’t have the dates on the worst of it, just years. On we go!

          62. Lorelei says:

            I thought I saw Georgia? I’m confused. I thank goodness was never shipped to Minnesota. It’s too cold in the winter. Georgia was lovely.

          63. Kristin says:

            I was kidding Lorelei 😅

          64. Lorelei says:

            Oh my Kristin. So, what’s the answers to my clues? The name of the town that starts with a common man’s name, where horse “Sugar” tried to throw me off a hill? That horse did not win. I held on & it was like the wild Wild West. I still generally dislike horses except for races. Or the island that I have a fondness for? My school will remain private. I did live there though, and loved Georgia peaches. In fact, Alexis and I talk a lot about peaches.

          65. Kristin says:

            Did you live in Douglasville and go to St. Simmons Island? If so, the former is right up the road from the Deliverance town! I’m sorry you aren’t a fan of horses 😔. I had five and miss them terribly but I see where you’re coming from. A bad experience can ruin it.

          66. Lorelei says:

            I didn’t live in Douglasville but the horses were there! I went to Cumberland Island. JFK Jr was married there!

          67. Kristin says:

            Oh, close! Cumberland Island, duh….we went to a wedding there ourselves many years ago, it’s beautiful.

          68. Renarde says:

            And TY for the compliment. My life has always revolved around Ns. You will get to a point where you just begin to ride it.

            It’s hard to explain but you will know when it hits.

            I’m sorry lovely but you ARE in denial. Denial is not a river in Egypt. You need to wake up.

            Your head has been MASSIVELY fucked with. Over many years. I personally believe it’s a crime.

            Let me give you an example who awesome it is being weaponised.

            I left my partner of 22 months in feb because he was a N. No abuse. None. Yup he could be a twat. Tried to Gaslight me. Ridiculous. Trianglated me. Ok go on then. I sensed the devaluation and before he could do it, I left.

            So when youre weaponised, you can do something quite remarkable. You can say, I love the N but I’m not going back.

            You will get there to but it’s a long journey. But worthwhile. Peace of mind is so precious.

            Wish you well and keep posting!

          69. Violetta says:


            I wish my mother had left my father years before she did, and she left only because of what he did to her, never because of what he did to us.

            Anyway she kept going back. Fortunately, she helped me move from the college dorm into my first apartment, but then she wondered why I didn’t visit home as often as she liked. Or why my relationships were never the kind she thought I ought to have. Or why I didn’t get married. In other words, why I didn’t fit her definition of normal.

          70. Kristin says:

            I am sorry you had to go through that with your mother. They have such a big influence on us and to not have her understanding or acceptance of your life and choices is difficult. Your statement has reminded me again that although I am worried about the effect of this on my children, the impact his narcissistic ways is even more important. Thank you!

        2. Violetta says:


          WhoCares is absolutely right. I just posted several long rants about the branch campus I worked at last fall, which is probably better than telling my former course directors what I think of them, the Deans, and where all of them ought to put their heads.

          Let us not fuel any narc but the Ultra. The others don’t deserve it.

  8. Evelyn says:

    That is some Patrick Bateman type monologue.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No it’s not, I didn’t have to return any video tapes!!

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