The Matrinarc Knows Best



“I love you.”

“I have heard this is a good one for getting a reaction from you because this is what you always want to hear.”


“You won’t ever amount to anything.”

“Not while I am interfering in every facet of your life, controlling you and making your childhood and your adult life one long battle.”


I just thought I would call you and see how you are.”

“You do not give me enough fuel. You are an ungrateful son/daughter and I regret the day I gave birth to you.”


“It is my birthday next week and I just wondered if you had anything planned.”

“I expect something lavish and spectacular so I can be centre stage. If you haven’t planned such an event you are cruel and uncaring, just as I always thought.”


“I am proud of you.”

“For once you have done something I approve of and now I can take all the credit for it.”



“You were quite a challenge when you were younger.”

“I thought you might resist my cold-hearted manipulation of you, but I broke you in the end.”


“I suppose you have heard the sad news about your Uncle Paul dying?”

“A death! A funeral! Such a wonderful stage for me to dominate and all those relatives to suck fuel from.”


“I am trying to help you,you know?”

“I am trying to control you, stop resisting me.”


I have done so much for you. All I want is some thanks.”

“I think I have done so much for you. I need some fuel.”


“It was a joke. You take yourself so seriously.”

“It was not a joke. Damn you for seeing through it. I need to back track quickly so I am not accountable.”


“You were an accident.”

“Go on cry and make me feel powerful.”


“Your father and I have discussed this as we think…”

“I have decided….”


“Your father agrees with me so there is no point running to him.”

“Your father knows better than to contradict me.”


“I had such high hopes for you.”

“You aren’t doing what I want.”


“That never happened.”

“It did but you are not allowed to hold that against me.”


“We never thought you would leave home.”

“You were not meant to move out of my control.”


“We hardly ever see you these days.”

“You should be providing me with fuel more often.”


“You weren’t like this when you were little.”

“You were so much easier to control back then.”


“I don’t love you.”

“I don’t love you. I never have.”

109 thoughts on “The Matrinarc Knows Best

  1. Asp Emp says:

    This whole thread was good to read (not necessarily in a good way). It did not make for ‘pleasant’ reading but it was good to read what ACONs had to say / share.

    I am amused at the Jerry Springer mention. I can totally relate to that. Those shows were a free-for-all. OMG. Damn. PC prevents a possibility of the matrinarcs of today to get a real-bitch slapping.

    Thank you for posting this thread, HG.

  2. Asp Emp says:

    I love this image.

  3. StrongerWendy says:

    Happy mothers day

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Haha. Keeping the balance.

      1. Just came across it yesterday and thought of HG.

      2. What first caught my attention was an article that randomly popped up in my news feed about Andy Summer (I’m a police fan, but not so much a Sting as a solo artist fan). It was about his messed up relationship with his mother (it sounded very narcsite-esque) that lead to him to writing the song. This lead to my viewing video and, of course, all roads lead to HG…

  4. Kristin says:

    The stories of your narc mothers are deplorable, I cannot imagine. However, I am so glad that you have each other because, as you said, not one can relate to what you have been through. What an amazing place to support each other. Keep sharing with each other in hopes that it increases understand and relieves some of the pain.

  5. Fiddleress says:

    It is a whole dictionary of MatriNarcs’ quotations that I could write.

    These I heard:

    “I have done so much for you. All I want is some thanks.” (add : “you ungrateful brat”)

    “It was a joke. You take yourself so seriously.” Countless times.

    “You weren’t like this when you were little.”
    This started when I began to use my brain independently, round the age of 13, as most children do, and wising up on her behaviours.
    I was indeed a very obedient child, very easy to manipulate. But at 13, I realised to my horror that she had turned me against my father, whereas he was the victim and she was insulting him, humiliating him, all the time (even brandished a kitchen knife, threatening to kill him in front of me when I was 10. Destroyed a gift of his he’d received from colleagues, beat him …).

    Then I became a rebellious teenager around the age of 15, and refused to wear skirts (which she always imposed on me). So I got:
    “You don’t look feminine enough”, but in the same breath: “I’d better not catch you with a boy”, so, of course, to make sure it wouldn’t happen: “You are too fat. You need to lose weight.”
    She actually managed to convince me of that. I was shocked to see pictures of myself at that age, years later, to realise that I was thin, absolutely normal-looking!

    On most days that I lived at my parents’, I heard her say how she’d never wanted to have kids, but it was the done thing then, you didn’t think about it. And how having kids had ruined her life (but in the same breath, we were her “most precious treasures” !). Except that when I was dismayed at her telling me she’d had an abortion the month before, when I was 8, she said: “Well, I already didn’t want your brother, and I’d decided I would let him die on the balcony after his birth. Of course, I changed my mind when he was born…”.

    She threatened to commit suicide when I tried to leave home and be independent, on my own money (so I went abroad as part of my studies to have a good reason to leave, because she prided herself on my academic achievements – I was afraid she’d commit suicide. She called me almost every day, crying because I was far away.

    She forbade me to have kids, because she said I’d be an incapable mother and brats ruin your life anyway. Told me I caused her depression when I had my first child, since I was not allowed to have any.

    And one of my all-time favourite: in front of me, she told my soon-to-be sister in law:
    “You are the daughter that I wish I had had.”

    I stopped seeing her 11 years ago, it was a question of mental survival. I have sometimes thought “they are getting old, I should get in touch”, but cannot bear the idea of putting up with all that BS again.

    That was some venting, alright!

    HG, can it be ET also when, on my bad days, I catch myself feeling incredibly sad for my father (an empath, I think), whose life has been a succession of different forms of hell, even before he met my mother?
    He was never close to us kids, and rejected my attempt at communicating with him before AND after I told my mother I never wanted to hear from her again.
    I find it hard to think that after all, it is his choice (and tough luck) if he has stayed with her.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The sadness you feel for your father is born out of your emotional empathy. However, when that sadness is linked to his relationship with your mother, your ET will want to promote that feeling in order to perpetuate a form of interaction with the narcissist.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Thank you for your reply, HG. It seems so clear once you have explained.

        I am not surprised, then, that I was upset for almost 24 hours after writing what I wrote above. I hadn’t thought of her for a while.
        ET back to normal as far as she is concerned, now.

    2. Bubbles xx says:

      Dear Fiddleress,
      You’ve just described my matrinarc
      My matrinarc DID try to take her own life in front of us kids
      I’m scarred for life ! I was around 11
      She, however, pretends it never happened or doesn’t remember
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Fiddleress says:

        So sorry to hear this! I can imagine that you are scarred. It took me 3 decades before I could mention her trying to kill my father without breaking down. Till I went NC, actually.
        I admire your strength, because you seem to be still in touch with your mother.
        I could not be with mine.
        Going NC with her was just the beginning of my road to recovery. And 11 years later, I am still at it! But on a highway to recovery now.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Fiddleress,
          My matrinarc contacted me after 21 years of no contact on her part (after my stepfather died) she had no one
          Between the weasel n her, I suffered so much trauma when she came back, I finally ended up here
          I’ve built up an immunity because of Mr Tudor and all you lovelies
          This is the only place to truly heal
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear Fiddleress,
      You just described my matrinarc as well
      Mine DID try to take her life in front of us kids, I was around 11
      I’m scarred for life !
      She, however, says it never happened or doesn’t remember
      Luv Bubbles Xx 😘

      1. WhoCares says:

        Dear Bubbles – I do not recall reading that before. You are an amazing lady. 💛💙💜

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear WhoCares,
          Thank you sweetness, but nothing compared to some other horrific stories here
          There’s soooooooo many, One trivial detail I forgot to mention 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          Sorry for the double up on this page, I thought I accidentally deleted it and did it again trying to remember what I wrote
          But when one gets to my age, you say everything twice twice 😂

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Oh, bless you, Bubbles. You’d have to say it about 20 times to a Deaf person 😉 (excuse me a moment, while I try and locate my hearing aids, they’re in the house somewhere, if the shire horses haven’t trodden on them LOL ;-)) Mwah, mwah.

    4. WhoCares says:

      That was a horrendous read.
      Glad you have found your way here.♥️

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Thank you. Yes, this blog is my “highway to recovery”!

        We all have our personal horror stories. As Witch said, what is great here is that people won’t judge you, and no one will say “But you only have one mother”.

        Sometimes I wonder why I do not feel much sympathy or empathy for my mother now (ET low enough, where she is concerned?). I am not saying she had an easy childhood because her father was an alcoholic, and violent (he tried to strangle his wife – whom he married 3 weeks after meeting her – cheated on her repeatedly… woops, another N, methinks!). My mother was his favourite. He never beat her, kept buying her presents. She was the golden child. I know it is not better, and she certainly witnessed horrible things. But I cannot allow myself (or my ET) to go rising on her account anymore.

        (By the way: “Who Cares”? I like your pseudo, but I’d say you certainly are caring. Yes, sometimes I like to state the obvious!)

        1. WhoCares says:


          “what is great here is that people won’t judge you, and no one will say “But you only have one mother”.”


          And thanks. I like your pseudo too.

  6. njfilly says:

    Dear Mr. HG Tudor:

    I have some questions, if they are not too personal, if you would answer.

    1) If another person, stranger or acquaintance, were to speak negatively about your mother in your presence, would this upset you? Would you defend her? I have read that although narcissists dislike their narcissistic parent(s) they feel a sense of loyalty toward their dysfunctional family (or something similar to this).

    2) Have your mother and The Shield Maiden met? If your mother were to speak negatively about SM, would you defend her?

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It would depend if it threatened my control. In board terms, it would not. By the way, I do not get upset.
      2. I have loyalty to nobody. I do however protect assets.
      3. Yes. Yes.

      1. njfilly says:

        Thank you for your response. Very interesting.

  7. step says:

    She is very similar to my mommy 🙂
    Unfortunately… I’m not a Narc (ex co-dependent)
    She insulted my dad after the funeral of his mother.
    He cries and said: you are Bad! You are a bad woman!
    So she said: I did it in order to make you feel better. I love you.
    When my ex lover (somatic narc) verbally abused me I was thinking, It’s ok… we are becoming a true couple: my mom used this types of things to my dad.
    I learned to absolve myself for the abuse… Terrible mom, terrible loves.

  8. Jolene says:

    Well, my matrinarc went as far as telling me she regrets ever giving birth to me and that I will never be as good as her (not that I want to) and that no man will ever want to marry me.

    Oh her good days she’s almost acting like a normal person. It seems really bipolar.

    1. Fiddleress says:

      ‘It seems really bipolar’: this is really interesting, and it is a question I’ve been meaning to ask HG:
      My mother – a narcissist, an ex ‘friend’ -a narcissist – and my ex – a narcissist, were all diagnosed with bipolar.
      HG, could it be quite common for BOTH narcissits and empaths to be diagnosed with bipolar because of the following criteria: huge emotional ups and downs, ‘magical’ thinking, black and white vision, hellish childhood records, and so forth ( the diagnosis states ‘not all signs may be present depending on individuals’, but it does mention ‘manipulation’ as a possibility) ?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It happens, it is difficult to be precise about the level of regularity, but anecdotally, it is something which happens more with the misdiagnosis of the narcissist, than the empath.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Extremely interesting, thank you, HG.
          (Yes, misdiagnosed is what I meant.)

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

      2. Witch says:

        From my experience, the narcs that are assessed, bipolar is one that comes up from time to time, also borderline, schizophrenia, conduct disorder, adjustment disorder, and depression.
        I think this is also partly because the narcs that are assessed come off as vulnerable and express suicidal ideation which is how they end up getting assessed initially.
        So far I’ve never come across a domestic abuse perpetrator being diagnosed with NPD or any other cluster B disorder a part from borderline, which is probably why borderlines have such a terrible reputation.
        I do believe narcs can have co-morbid disorders though, which is why some self-harm or commit suicide or are suffering from symptoms related to other disorders such as panic attacks, or appear significantly more paranoid/delusional than the average narc.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes there can be comorbidity.

          1. Witch says:

            Yep 100% think that is the case with my mother. She had a mental breakdown when I was 9-10.
            One of my sisters thinks she fakes and lies about everything.
            But I don’t. My mother doesn’t have the calculating intelligence to pull something like that off and hold onto that lie for decades. She is very much an in the moment emotional outburst narc.
            And yes she uses her vulnerabilities to get fuel but there is definitely something aside from narcissism that debilitates her.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Witch – what you write feels so similar to what I suspect with regard to my mother.

            No confirmation, but I would not be surprised if she has been diagnosed with other things. I think that the narcissism seizes upon those other “realities” to slap a label of truth on them and uses that to further the narcissism’s goals. It isn’t that those other issues aren’t true but that they will never be fully attended to because they work to the narcissist’s advantage. (And naturally those other problems get progressively worse with time.)

          3. Witch says:

            Yes I suspect the same.
            A co-morbid narc milks it. Their narcissism capitalises off their mental health issues to milk sympathy, milk welfare, milk attention and then if anyone pulls them up on the fact that no problem ever gets resolved. They will just get the violins out and blame their mental health. They don’t intend on getting better, they think other people should adapt to, what they don’t know is their narcissism.

        2. casleighmay says:

          You are right about Borderlines being seen as terrible Witch, I am a Borderline and used to be very unstable and have done things I regret. I do have to say though that all of we Borderlines react out of panic of abandonment, it governs everything we do. We are terrified of being alone and the experience of being left and the pain is excruciating. We don’t mean to hurt people, we are just terrified.

          I have had 16 years therapy and worked bloody hard at it, my symptoms are something I can mostly control very well now and it barely effects my life or those around me. Ironically the only time I can’t is when I am being abandoned when I geyser just about every emotion you can think of as a self-defence mechanism combined with outright begging to not leave me Unfortunately this means I am perfect for N when I am in Devaluation because my fuel knows no bounds. To make it worse I am a co-dependent empath too, N’s just love me.

          1. Witch says:


            I’ve know 4-5 people diagnosed with BPD and only one of them is noticeably narcissistic.
            The other 3 are more self-harming than harmful towards others.
            One of them is a gay guy and I love him to bits, he’s hilarious and a kind person.

        3. Renarde says:


          I believe you are correct. BPD having a bad rep because some have NPD then use that as an excuse for their awful behaviour.

          My mum has either Bipolar 1 or schizophrenia. I truly believe that whilst she had a genetic propensity for it, it was brought on by PN.

          What was intresting about her, is her absolute refusal to accept how it had affected her children. Still wont. We ate lying, making it up. We were absent and didnt contribute (an AWFUL lie as at one point she denied that I’d been running the house. At 15). Or we BLAMED her. Which was entirely not true.

          I percieve she is a Som. And has an exaggerated perception about her own facade.

          The sheer HORROR of seeing your mum go off her tits, florid, will never leave me. I tried so many times to get her to understand. How worried I was. Frightened. Nervy. Anxious.

          Then I get blame, deflection, gaslighting. I just wanted my mum.

          1. Witch says:

            I’m sorry to hear you went through all that Renarde.
            For a co-morbid narc I suspect if is common for the children to become carers.
            I relate to yearning for a normal relationship with my mum.
            I would try to get my mum to watch a movie with me but she would get up and start cleaning or speak to someone on the phone .
            She couldn’t help with homework much because she would just get angry and hit me if I got something wrong.
            A lot of my childhood was very boring because my mum didn’t really do anything with us and my dad neglected me so I didn’t really have any interesting experiences. She also had more kids than what she could handle so I never saw her happy just complaining all the time. It’s why subconsciously I associate parenthood with being stressed and miserable

          2. Renarde says:


            That sounds horrific. Completely bonkers on their part of course, we crave emotionally normal relationships with our parents.

            Mum was a slapper. Shed pull my pigtails which I never wanted. I wanted long, glorious hair.

            PN was different. I was his little disciple. I knew no better so it carried on for many years. I loved them both but I know, neither loved me.

            I get what you say about parenthood. Having those awful templates of your life.

            When I had mine, well I am sure there were things I did wrong.

            My children and I were happy after the UMS. We did all kinds of bonkers things. But I never forgot I was in charge. But I was very gentle.

            When I’d finally freed myself of the rapist UMS, for the first time in my life I was happy. And hes still at it.

            I think when the mother-daughter bond breaks down, it is one of the most deepest and profoundest sorrows any little girl can go through.

            You have my awe and respect. I sit with you, sister. You did not deserve this.

            I will say this, being a single parent away from that sexually sadistic psychopath were the happiest days I’ve known.

            So its not unobtainable. And hugs to you x

          3. WhoCares says:


            “I think when the mother-daughter bond breaks down, it is one of the most deepest and profoundest sorrows any little girl can go through.”

            I agree that a long time can be spent lamenting the loss of what should have been a healthy relationship. But, for me, knowing that my mother is a narcissist is very freeing – it explains why it was the way it was – truly, there is nothing to lament. And it makes me appreciate, all the more, the empathic women in my life.

          4. Renarde says:


            Out of that most profoundest sadness on what my mum did to be, even in the last day, how she absconded herself. As she did when I was a child and she does even to this day. Her little ‘quavering’ voice. But I dont understand! I wasnt there! 45 years of not taking deniability. Whilst her husband abused us both my brother and I.. She turned a blind eye then she abused us and he turned a blind eye.

            Still together. 50 years.

            Funnily enough, I can forgive my father than I can my mother.

            There was something very deeply psychosexual in my mums head. I think it was her mother had deeply repressed her.

            My own mum tried it with me. Well I said tried. It was a little bit silly.

            I saw through her. 15. I knew she wasnt right.

            I wont write about them again. Neither deserve the energy.

            Like you, I truly appreciate empathic women x

          5. WhoCares says:

            That is a deep hurt. I am sorry Renarde.

            My mother did leave a legacy of pain but it was more with regard to how her narcissism obscured the fact that my father was an empathic, caring man. All of this was set right though, in my head, after encountering HG’s work.

          6. Renarde says:


            Often there is an underpowered Empath somewhere in the mix.

            Same for me but with my grandfather who was coerced into living with us.

            What he did was a crime. PN would stick his nose into the air and say, ‘Domestic Abuse isnt taken seriously by the police’. That was true in the eighties. Still true now.

          7. Witch says:


            “I think when the mother-daughter bond breaks down, it is one of the most deepest and profoundest sorrows any little girl can go through.”

            I agree. Something I will have to grieve for the rest of my life.
            And I know i didn’t deserve it. I was an adorable child and really obedient anyway so there was literally zero reason as to why I got smacked or even shouted at.
            Not that I’m saying any child deserves it. But literally I was a saint “goody two shoes”
            And you didn’t deserve any of it either.
            It’s such a shame we have to share the same planet with these freaks

          8. Renarde says:


            I will also grieve, for you and others. And me.

            They will never understand. It would be like explaining quantum mechanics to a monkey.

            With a better chance of the monkey understanding it rather than these deluded fools would ever understand the pain they’ve caused.

            My mother has hot to be, hands down, one if not THE most ignorant and stupid person I have ever had the misfortune to meet.

            In the words of the MME, ‘Shes not exactly dynamic is she?’ When I shared an audio file of one of our conversations.

            However, shes not dumb dumb. Until HG managed to remove a lot of my ET and I stopped making excuses for her, I realised how bloody cunning she was.

            I’m so sorry to hear about your smacking. She did that too. And pulled my hair, grabbed my hands and dug her nails in. She would have this mad, crazy look in her eyes. I used to have nightmares when very young that she was coming to get me.

            PN was far more controlled by contrast.

            No child ever deserves to be hit. And neither did you.

            But honestly, isnt this, NS, a fantastic place?

          9. Witch says:


            Yes narcsite is the only place we can speak freely without someone interjecting with “you only have one mother.”
            I also think my mother is dim.
            But she is also manipulative and knows how to play the victim so she appears innocent with a third party.
            If she meets someone for the first time she will act like the Virgin Mary. She wants to be liked by your friends.
            This is the message I received from her when I asked her if she was going to come to my wedding:
            “Witch, we haven’t spoken for ages and right now I am busy with me so I don’t need this question. I feel you want me there.
            All I want is that you are happy and for you to know that I care and love you still regardless of your sexuality.”

            This is what solidified it for me that she was a midrange narc

          10. Renarde says:

            Ohh Witch. I’m so very sorry.

            What a bloody PA comment. You are absolutely correct.

            My mum ran a similar. Utterly unconcerned with the wedding but became obsessed with me taking her out to get her outfit. I dragged her along to my custom made and all she would say is ‘Umm’ ‘Ahh’ and the perennial ‘Nice’. Sat there like a fucking pepper pot.

            When I was pregnant a few years later, I told her how she had hurt me. She would say, ‘I gave you money’. I’d argue, yes that was kind but I didnt need it. I needed you. My mum to be really with me.

            In her tiny brain, the giving of £500 absolved her of all responsibility. Emotional and certainly practical.

            My university friend bridesmaids could not understand what was going on and I bitterly complained to them many times.

            And actually, how DARE your mum say that about your sexuality.

            Are you still in touch?

          11. Witch says:


            They always find a way of making everything about them.
            They probably don’t like the fact that your wedding day means you and your partner are going to be the centre of attention and they will be another guest like everyone else. It’s pathetic what they get offended about.

            There’s a few things to unpack with that message.
            The fact she didn’t answer the question directly so she could gain control over the situation by leaving me in limbo, and attempt to gain future fuel by having me ask the question again.
            “We haven’t spoken in ages” means I haven’t been around to suck her arse so why should she come to my wedding?
            The fact she said “I feel you want me there.” To try and get me declare how much I want her to be there and beg and grovel for her approval (not a chance but nice try!)
            The fact she says she loves me regardless of my sexuality, insinuating that I’m doing something wrong but not to worry because mother dearest will still have mercy for me and try to bring me back under her sphere of influence.

            No I don’t speak to her and she’s no longer welcome. If she tries to come in last minute like “queen mother is coming through to bless your wedding..” the answer is no! Stay your arse at home.

          12. Renarde says:


            Completely obvious you have gone through shit that would destroy others in their traces.

            The fact you’ve seen through it, well, I would say that you are now fully weaponised.

            Well done. Good on you.

            However, it’s one thing when we recognise this about our IPs. Another when they are our parents. I’m so very sorry.

            I know my words cannot even begin to make up for what you’ve been through but seriously, YANA x

          13. Witch says:

            Thank you for your kindness. I think others have gone through much worse than I have, including HG. Half of the time my mum was depressed in her bed so it wasn’t too bad because it meant at least we were left alone for some time.
            It just means I now have to deal with anxiety and extreme negative thoughts. Which I don’t believe will ever go away so it’s just something I have to live with. But I’m sure most people here can relate to that x

          14. Fiddleress says:

            Most people can probably relate to that here, I agree, but do not downplay what you experienced. You see, when I read ” Half of the time my mum was depressed in her bed”, which is not something I witnessed as a child, it makes me very sad indeed for the young girl that you were. I imagine loneliness, helplessness, and the anxiety you feel now (and extreme negative thoughts) are not ‘light’ consequences.

            I really believe that there is no objective scale of suffering. We are, each of us, at the centre/origin of our own world view, we are impacted by events to a greater or lesser extent according to our particular sensitivity; so something that can seem ‘not as serious as’ something that someone else has experienced, can have had much more devastating effects. And/or different ones.
            I am saying this to you, but I should say it to myself first !
            Maybe, as empaths, we tend to view others’ hardships as worse than our own, because we don’t go ‘one better’ on everyone else? (I have a colleague that I suspect is a MR narc, and whatever you tell her, she has ALWAYS had it worse than you! She even said it in so many words once: “Pff, whatever happened to anyone, I’ve been through worse!” )

          15. Renarde says:


            They will. Trust me.

            Time heals all.

            It’s such a silly statement to.make in of itself. But it will. You have no reason to trust me but try.

            Sorry you are hurting x

          16. Witch says:


            Yes I agree, we have the humility and emotional empathy to understand that we are not the only ones that have been through shit. So we are able to have gratitude for what we have and keep it moving.
            My mother is not sadistic and does not want to appear as a “bad mother” so she keeps herself in check in some respects.
            Does that mean I like her and will speak to her and be drawn back into her depressing life, no.
            But I do think narcs with a sadistic streak are much more dangerous. Of course that is just my view. I guess any narc can be dangerous depending on who they are in conflict with.
            What I’ve learnt here is that she doesn’t really have a choice about how she thinks and responds. I have more flexibility and adaptability but at my core I can’t change and don’t have a choice. We might as well be a different species and so I’ll rather direct my time and energy to people like me. I believe in segregation between narcs and empaths, don’t believe we should be able to marry each other, work together, use the same public toliets, drink from the same water fountain etc I’ve had enough

          17. Kristin says:

            Well said Witch. As for finding peace when she is gone, you are correct. It was only after my father (alcoholic and sexual abuse) died that I was able to deal with it all. I loved him but the terminal cancer diagnosis was, sadly a relief, the pain for all of us all was gone.

          18. Renarde says:

            Witch and fiddy

            I’d tend to agree with you Witch. The sadists like PN is, well hes just awful.

          19. Witch says:


            I’ve said it before, that I think I’ll be much more at peace when she’s dead, that way I know she’s no longer suffering or causing others to suffer. Logically that is the best outcome.
            I’ll only go to the funeral to support my sisters.
            I’ll try my best to trust that internally over time things will get better. I’ll have a new family anyway, my partners family. x

          20. Renarde says:


            I understand completely. My mum isnt quite like yours, she was just unconcerned and her attempts at facade management are laughable.

            However, knowing PN STILL has a IPSS and contagion me found her based on just one clue PN slipped out, well she looks a kind soul and if judging by her pictures, looks like a Lesser ensnared her. As well as MRN Dad of course.

            Shes barely literate. Poor thing. Yeah, he needs to stop hurting people. So much pain and misery.

            But look! We’re weaponised!!!

          21. Witch says:

            I’m sorry to hear what your dad put you and your sister through, it’s disgusting. Narcs need to stay away from children especially. I’ll never understand these sick freaks who are sexually attracted to innocence and vulnerability.
            But yes, the best thing a narc could do is bite the dust.

          22. Kristin says:

            Thank you, Witch. My mother, now an HG fan, and I have talked extensively about it. My father was kind and would give the shirt off his back for anyone. Although we I agree he was not a narc, he obviously had demons that, in turn, affected us. Even though I feel like I have moved past it, the abuse will always have an impact on me, just not as much as before. I truly wish the same for you and all the others that are still fighting the pain and demons of your upbringing.

            Ironically enough, he ran his own business and was well thought of in town. There was standing room only at the funeral and my mom turned to me and said, “Are we at the right funeral?” 😅

          23. Witch says:


            I didn’t think my mum was a narc even after years of knowing of HG, because she did some nice things for me and appeared to like certain things not commonly liked by narcs like new born babies and animals.
            But someone here pretty much said my mum sounds like a narc and then I tried to access her behaviours without emotion and concluded she was a narc.
            Your father’s lack of appropriate boundaries is a strong indication of a narc. I don’t know what normal or empath would sexualise their children and if we wouldn’t do it then who would?
            HG said to me narcs come in many forms.

          24. Kristin says:

            Interesting Witch. HG has stated that many narcs come from abuse as he did. My mom talks about how he was such a good caretaker when we were sick but he could be verbally abusive to her also. You have me thinking differently now and wanting to reassess my view.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Narcissists “come from” a genetic predisposition towards narcissism allied with a lack of control environment, abuse is just one of those lack of control environments. The LOCE can manifest in several different ways, abuse is of course a common manifestation.

          26. Kristin says:

            Agreed HG. I am always curious to know what factors, in addition to the genetic predisposition, play a part in the dynamic.

          27. Kristin says:

            I find it compelling that you didn’t know your mom was a narc after being with HG for years, realizing that must have been very difficult. You had a narcissist knowledge base and it still eluded you. I can imagine you had to relive your childhood and look at it in a whole new light. That just shows how conniving and confusing it is to be with a narc and I’m being kind.

            After I replied a memory popped into my head. I had blocked it out for years but it came to mind last week and again today. When the narc and I were dating or maybe we were engaged, he came to see me at my parent house when I was home from college. It was late at night and we were having sex in the den, my parents were upstairs “asleep.” The room was dark and the door was closed but it had windows in it so you could see in. The next morning my father said, “I saw you two in the den last night.” Freaked me out, I thought he was joking but he wouldn’t have known we were there if he hadn’t have looked. I honestly don’t know what to think or how to analyze this. It is done, he is dead but now that you mentioned he may very well have been a narc, I am seeing things differently. I’m sure other memories will surface and I will be able to apply what I have learned here. Thank you for your insight.

            I do believe Jerry Springer will be contacting me to film another episode…

          28. Witch says:


            My mum was diagnosed with complex PTSD so I thought her crazy behaviour was because she was sick mentally.
            I joined PTSD support groups on Facebook and I didn’t get any answers. People confirmed that sometimes they do take their symptoms out on their loved ones but there was no clarity. When I said sometimes I think my mum may have NPD, someone got defensive and said I’m not the only child that has gone through this and other people have gone through worse. (Probably a narc!)
            So, still no answers! Then I looked back over my mums responses whenever us kids had emotional needs and I concluded for myself that she was co-morbid.
            She appears to be good with kids when they are small children, can’t talk and are completely dependent on her. As soon as they start becoming autonomous beings, she can’t cope with it. She’ll still make sure food is on the table, you’re washed and your hair looks nice, she will hug you and joke with you. But that’s about as deep as it gets.
            I remember my youngest sister was upset over her and my step dads divorce and she would sit by the window depressed when her dad would drop her back home and leave, and I don’t remember my mum comforting her, she would mock the fact that she missed her dad.
            Same with me, when my mum and dad were battling each other in family court, my dad was ordered to buy me a gift every 2 weeks (something like that) and send me a card. I remember being excited for my gift, and she just looked stuck up and angry 😤 like this emoji while I was opening my gift. Didn’t validate my excitement. Because of course our dads were painted black at those times.
            Those kinds of memories came to me and I realised there wasn’t genuine love in my home as much as I thought. And we were most likely pawns created to have a life long link with our dads.

            Jerry springer would have a field day with our family. If i went on Jeremy Kyle he would probably start cussing me out, calling me an ungrateful child that abandoned their mother lol

            But yes now when I assess people’s behaviour I always think “would an empath do all that?” And if the answer is no, then that person is a suspect.

  9. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Ahhhh yes, the matrinarc !
    It was my mother’s birthday last week
    We couldn’t see mum on her ACTUAL birthday and she woefully uttered … “I’ll just light a single candle in the dark, sing happy birthday to myself and cry”

    We had organised to see her the day after (because she lives so far away) and with covid, the police want to know why you’re on the roads and you’d better have a bloody good reason or you’ll get fined big time (as I’m her carer I have to make the trip worthwhile)
    She enjoyed a special birthday lunch, flowers, gifts n birthday cake

    She has not mentioned any of it since her birthday and has done nothing but complain she hasn’t received her two birthday cards from her so called “friends” who live overseas (she even INSTRUCTED me on what type of birthday card she wanted me to buy her) 😱
    I have explained they probably can’t leave the house due to covid restrictions (they’re both around ninety years old)

    She’s complained EVERYDAY since
    Now she’s going to write letters to find out why her so called friends haven’t sent one,( one did send an email n photos, but that doesn’t count) , she wants a bloody good reason why !
    Good thing for me, patience is a virtue, haha
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. Mercy says:

      Bubbles, your story reminded me of a co-worker of mine. She was retiring and she made sure everyone knew how many days she had left to work everyday. She did a countdown on our whiteboard. We were planning a retirement party and secretly getting the details worked out. She must have thought we weren’t going to do anything because she started to drop hints of what kind of cake she wanted and such. 4 days before her party the pandemic reach our area and we got shut down and haven’t been back. She is now officially retired. In the last month she has posted several post on social media complaining that we did nothing for her when she retired (we have been planning to parade down her street with signs and a gift). At first I felt bad thinking we could have figured out something. The more I think about it, I don’t want to do anything at all now. I hate it when kindness becomes a burden.

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Mercy,
        I guess I can understand her thinking, retirement for some is a huge huge deal and one needs to prepare for it mentally
        Mr Bubbles still goes to work in an advisory capacity, he luvs working from home but he is truly missed in the office (which he actually kinda likes) and is looking forward to going back next week, makes him feel luvved needed n wanted plus he has an abundance of knowledge, they’re always asking for his advice
        The trepidation with loss of routine, human interaction, a purpose in life, financial capacity or she may be forced into a situation with her partner that may a burden or abusive

        Personally, I would continue with the “surprise” the office intended, as it may well be the only bit of happiness that results in retiring because in reality, most people who retire become bored or slowly end up dying from lack of purpose n meaning and human interaction
        Look around at the supermarkets, most retired people have only supermarket checkout chicks to talk to, if they’re lucky
        Most retirees are frightened of loneliness, just look at what this pandemic is doing to people
        Our dear old friend in aged care, rings us almost daily, he’s dying for our continued friendship and is desperate we don’t forget him, he’s surrounded with those who are drugged up or non compos mentis
        It would a kind gesture to give her her Big Bang send off…. you’ll make an old person beam like a Cheshire Cat
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        Ps – Great news, my matrinarc received her birthday card yesterday PLUS a letter……. now she’s complaining about her friend’s handwriting …. 🤣
        You just can’t win

        1. Mercy says:


          Your last sentence made me laugh. Thank you for your kind perspective. We will go ahead with our plans and you are right, it will make her feel special. She will be like your mom though. She’ll find something to complain about 😂 she was the type to complain about her secret Santa gift (all I got was a gift card or everyone knows I’m allergic to candles). I’m sure Mr. Bubbles is a much more pleasant person to be around. She drives me nuts but I see the truth in what you say about loss of routine and human interaction. Plus she might be running out of people to complain about with all of this social distancing haha.

          Thank you, take care.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Mercy,
            Tis a far far better thing you do 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Ps One must bear in mind, these people don’t have much in life when all they do is complain, sad really
            She’ll still complain you missed something trivial … bless her little heart 🤣

    2. Renarde says:


      That’s AWFUL. What a petulant child of a woman.

      How brave of you to continue being her career. At least you have HG to reduce your ER but it’s still wrong.

      I’d suggest giving her a dry slap but that would wrong. Ish.

      Thinking of you.


      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest Renarde,
        I agree Renarde, forget about the dry slap, how about a burning neck wring 🤣
        Trouble is, prison orange is not my colour 😂
        Took my matrinarc out to get her flu shot, the nurse took our temperatures, talk about a “carry on”, has no comprehension about the pandemic, only what inconveniences her!
        To her, it’s a heap of nonsense!
        Renarde, what ET ? 🤣
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  10. Violetta says:

    HG, I don’t know exactly what you will whisper in your mother’s ear if you manage to encounter her on her deathbed, but I bet I know what the general topic will be.

    1. Renarde says:


      You dont mean..Depeche Mode???

      Master and Servent?

      Oh my stars! I’m all of a flutter!!

      Mavis!! The Salts! The Salts!

  11. casleighmay says:

    I heard many of these from my UMR grandmother particularly “I had such high hopes for you”. I felt so much shame but now I see it was all about her. Thank you for this post HG, hearing what she really meant takes away some of the pain from the scars that still smart sometimes.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome

    2. Cindy Huggins says:

      My mother told my brother I was the result of a “failed rubber”…

  12. Witch says:

    “You’ve got issues”

    “You’re like your sister (the scapegoat)”

    “”You’ve turned out to be really nasty”

    “You like to pretend you’re innocent but I know what you’ve been saying about me”

    “You’ve been lying to people about me”

    “You don’t trust me”

    “I’m trying to protect you”

    “I did it for you”

    “I am your mother”

    “Did you kiss him? / did you have sex with him?”

    “I never spoke to my mother the way you speak to me”

    “Fine, you keep your secrets”

    “So because you couldn’t say no to your ex you want to say no to me!?”

    “If I’m so toxic don’t speak to me”

    “I don’t hate you, I don’t have anything against you but I don’t want you to contact me anymore”

    “Remind me of what you said about me again?”

    “I don’t want your friends/partners anywhere near my house. Your people aren’t welcome here anymore”

    “YOUR dad left me in debt!”

    “Is that your dad on the phone? Left me speak to him”

    “If I were you, I would see your dad so he will give you money”

    “I was testing you”

    “I manipulated that situation so you/I could get what you/I wanted”

    1. Kristin says:

      Good to see you Witch!

      1. Witch says:

        Hi Kristin!
        I’m still not getting notifications.
        How have you been?

        1. Kristin says:

          I’m good, thanks. I hadn’t seen you in a while and was happy that you posted on the blog. I think I remember you mentioning working from home. Hope you are doing well and get your notifications back soon! 😊

          1. Witch says:

            I’m glad to hear you’re well.
            Yes I’m working from home and I’ve started making jewellery during the lockdown which is why I have not been on here very often. Still matrix style dodging narcs, including my mother who is unfortunately stressing my sister that lives with her. My sister tries to avoid her but then she starts a confrontation because my sister is staying in her room and not sucking her arse. No surprise there.

          2. Kristin says:

            Jewelry sounds awesome and it is a perfect time to do it! It must be driving you crazy to have to deal with your mother and what she is doing to your sister. She is in a no win situation. Stay strong and create away 🙂

          3. Witch says:

            Thank you Kristin, and yes it is has been a painful but rewarding exercise overcoming the narc in my head that tells me I’m not good enough whenever I try something new.
            I deal with my mother only indirectly with what I hear from the rest of the pack. It reminds me that she’s never going to change.

          4. Kristin says:

            I know it is difficult but I hope you are able to eventually remove the narc in your head.

          5. Witch says:

            I hope so too, but I doubt it. I think my mind is too damaged. I can find ways to cope and some days are much better than others but I’m always going to be “f’d up” to a certain degree. I’m sure I will be fine and manage to live with it.

          6. Kristin says:

            I really had no idea how many of you had a matrinarc, I cannot imagine. I have been reading the posts and it is no wonder the pain and scars last as long as they do. It is heartbreaking but I truly hope you are able to heal over time. As we always say, this is the best place to be. I think we are all a bit messed up to a degree. My father was an alcoholic and was sexually inappropriate with me and my sister. It screwed with both our heads but I’m afraid she got the worst of it and still struggles to this day. Unfortunately, the abuse plays a part in who we are and the memories never leave but I think we are all stronger for what we have endured.

            Don’t let your struggles define you Witch, and don’t let the bad days discourage you. I can relate to some of what you are saying, just don’t give up and keep doing what is best for you.

          7. Fiddleress says:

            Hello Kristin
            Being on the receiving end of sexually inappropriate behaviour is one of the worst things that can happen to a child. Sorry to hear it happened to you and your sister.
            My father was (is) an alcoholic too, but he was not violent. However, I know how it feels specifically for a girl to have an alcoholic father (it is no worse than for a boy, but it has its specificities). May I ask you how you managed to overcome this particular trauma, if you have ? You don’t have to answer of course ! I dealt with the consequences somehow,, over a loooong period of time.

          8. Kristin says:

            Thank you for your kind words and understanding, I am happy to share my experience. It all boils down to my father dying and my faith in God.

            You know first-hand what it is like to have an alcoholic father and the impact it has on girls. From a young age I felt uncomfortable around my father but did not know why until I was a teenager and the looks and inappropriate touch began. I coped by starving myself and became anorexic senior year in high school and into college. I hit rock bottom, was praying one day and it hit me how selfish I was being. From there on I was able to let it go and I am grateful because it could have lasted a lifetime. My sister coped by drinking and doing drugs from 13 years on. She is now sober but I see the evidence of her scars and how she still tries to hold it all in.

            He died of cancer 21 years ago and it was only then that I was able to realize and cope with what happened and how it affected me. He was gone and I was able to escape some of the pain. I went into counseling and she had me hit a chair with a tennis racket to release my anger, that was a big NO. I am sure this will sound hokey to some but I then worked with a counselor from my church and had a breakthrough; she utilized theophostic counseling. I had nightmares for years about the abuse and particularly when I travelled, for whatever reason. She had me close my eyes and think about each incident of abuse. She then told me to picture God coming into the situation and protecting me from my father. Was it awkward to sit there with my eyes closed, absolutely, I had a headache when we were finished and was completely worn out. However, the nightmares stopped completely. I still had issues with intimacy but finally had some peace. It was only recently that I had a very upsetting nightmare about him after all this time which surprised me.

            This is bothersome but since the narc does not respect physical boundaries I am constantly reminded of my father. He gropes me (I am his wife you know) and is very inappropriate. The sicko knows my father used to pinch my butt so for many years he has done that to me and asks if I think of my dad. Really, who does that… ULN.

            I have forgiven my father. He had an alcoholic father and his sister indicated that he may have been abused as well. I am content with how far I have come but worry about my sister and the affect it had on her.

            This is my story and I know everyone has to work through abuse (narc/family) in their own way. This is such an amazing place because we can speak openly and learn from one another.

            You have provided such a valuable and safe platform for so many HG, once again, thank you.

          9. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. I had never heard of theophostic counselling before. I did a little bit of research after reading your reply. I am glad you found someone who could help you and that it did help you.

            I know exactly what you mean re issues with intimacy. I don’t feel ready to expand on that for the moment, but I can relate to what you wrote.
            Will certainly be talking to you again soon, Kristin, and with pleasure.

            HG, To second Kristin’s renewed thanks for this blog: I am under the impression that you created/opened this blog on November 13th, 2015. Please correct me if I am wrong (it is the date I came across).
            That was the night of the biggest terrorist attacks in Paris (someone I liked was killed that night, at the terrace of a café). So if I am right, you were turning on a bright light, on the other side of the Channel from me/us here, that day.
            I am not sure yet what link, though obviously hugely constrasting, I see in these two events.
            Please forgive my sentimentality – I’ll blame-shift it on what I just found out in the forum tonight, which I shall need some time to process now. (The words “ET rising” are playing in my mind to the music of Arcade Fire’s “Cold Wind Blowing”, for some reason. A song used in the series “Six Feet Under”, which I loved.)

          10. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome. The blog commenced on 31st August 2015.

          11. Fiddleress says:

            August 31st – thanks. It was just chance then that the earliest article I found dated back to that day in November 2015.
            Maybe the link between the terrorist attacks and what I thought was the creation of the blog is this:
            there was a lot of controversy in this country over whether the majority had personality disorders (no particular label was mentioned). The point being that if they do, then all attempts at ‘deradicalisation’ and rehabilitation are doomed (which makes me think of the film A Clockwork Orange).
            I would be interested to have your thoughts on this, HG, if it is of any relevance to what you have observed or worked on.
            Thank you !

          12. HG Tudor says:

            I will be expanding on this in future work, in relation to narcissists and conspiracy theories.

          13. Fiddleress says:

            Great news, thank you HG!

          14. Violetta says:


            I’m sinnnnnngin’ in the rain….

    2. Violetta says:

      “You’re just like your father!”

      Well, why didn’t you bring me up with a better role model?

  13. DrHouse says:

    How would you explain a young child that his mother is a narc without a fucking soul? And she keeps hurting him and I comfort him. What can I say to break her power from her manipulative brainwashing .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is your lucky day indeed Dr House – everything you need can be found right here

  14. wendydarling says:

    “I just thought I would call you and see how you are.”

    I’m getting this a lot lately.

    “You were an accident.”
    Along with ‘you are lucky you are here – I couldn’t stand your father.’ And ‘lucky that you were a girl’ (I had two older brothers who ended up disappointing her). I became the golden child, but anything I did well or worked hard to accomplish was met with ‘of course you did. I would expect nothing less.”

  15. Carrie Arends says:

    Narcissism in the end is really a hard boiled coping mechanism [empathy is similar the Oh Boy do I feel for what you’re enduring or endured I sure know what that feels like ]. both are either coping or remembering with sympathy for another what it feels like to have to adopt the coping techniques

    1. WhoCares says:

      Good observation, Carrie Arends – but the Empath can become aware of his or her coping mechanism and strategize future behaviour with that knowledge.
      A Narcissist will never possess that insight – unless a Greater.

      1. Renarde says:


        Yup, I instinctively knee jerked at Carrie’s words. Mean no disrespect there.

        Empathy from me flows. Is it a coping mechanism? Well if it is, it’s pretty crap one.

        Its strongly allied to nurturing, mostly the young but other humans too. Plus animals. You can extend it to the local environment and the Earth. It’s a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

        Of course that in itself is a matter of perception. But usually as a society there are largely ethical and philosophical elements most will agree with.

        I am strongly reminded of I think it was The Synod of Sutri. Where a lot of male Bishops argued, ‘How many Angel’s dance on the top of a pin head?’

        Who knows, who cares? If Angel’s exist I think there are far better ways for them to conduct themselves frankly.

        So the point really is, why are they wasting their time on such matters? Because theyve now become obsessed with winning. Which I think you might find if you care to look, this is pretty much all politicians at high level do.

        So no, Empathy is not a self control mechanism but narcissism is. What those Bishops should have been arguing about is what Jesus would’ve wanted to do with the Church.

        And once they’d exhausted the Angel Agenda, they set in stone the Bible. The books.

        An excuse to control all Empaths and Normals from around 500 AD.

        Can I land this one? I think I can. Ns naturally rose to the top and largelly set the agenda. They’re hypocrisy means they ignore the very reason they are there in the first place.

        Empaths are so easily controlled it’s not funny. So no. It’s not a fall back for us because if it were, we could ditch it. And we cannot. HG said to me, ‘these traits are with you for life’.

        So now, we are breaking free. In ways that wouldnt have been possible even ten years ago.

        I hope this helps.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “Its strongly allied to nurturing, mostly the young but other humans too. ”

          But I believe it is a coping mechanism in the way that we have to ramp it up (when we are little) to assess others around us, and our empathy to both protect ourselves and have our needs met – when in a harsh environment.

          1. WhoCares says:

            and *use our empathy to both protect ourselves and have our needs met

          2. Renarde says:


            At that point you are in the law of diminishing returns.

            The more you say you care, the more they take advantage.

            I’m quite suprised HG hasn’t written about this very, singular point. This is where the noose tightens.

            Or perhaps he has and I’ve just missed it.

          3. WhoCares says:

            Renarde, narcissists simply won’t accept diminishing returns. That’s part of the problem.
            And I think HG’s is *always* writing about it actually.

          4. Renarde says:


            Sometimes they do. It just depends on what is going on in the matrix.

            The Game is always being played. If they percieve instinctively to step back. They do. Only to attempt to open up on another front. At some point.

            That’s why we must always be cautious.

          5. WhoCares says:

            The aging Mid-ranger I guess is one that would “compromise” , possibly, but only if doing suits their purposes.

    2. Lorelei says:

      “Hard boiled coping mechanism”—yes it is. Nice phrase.

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