Hoover Risk : The Need For the Last Word




I often reinforce how the key to understanding who you have been entangled with and therefore maximising your own prospects of moving on is to comprehend that we operate from a different perspective from you. That is why so much of what we say and do appears odd, irrational and downright perverse to you, yet completely normal and understandable to us.

One of those ways in which the perspective affects the dynamic between my kind and your kind is the fact that we always want the final word. Now, of course, it may have occurred to you that since we regard the Narcissistic Relationship as one which lasts forever, how can there really be a last word? Once again, this does not matter to us and this highlights the contradictory nature of the way by which we behave. We are the ones in control and we must always exert that state of affairs. Therefore, within the Formal Relationship we want the last word in any discussion or argument. We want the last word when issuing our opinion about something. We want the last word when the Formal Relationship has been brought to conclusion. Indeed, even if you end the Formal Relationship and escape us we will still maintain that we had the last word and we ended it. We will skew the situation to maintain our control and sense of power, irrespective of what might actually have happened. This causes confusion, frustration and astonishment for you, which of course is all good fuel to us.

The need for the last word is also a device which is designed to set us on a collision course with your kind. You also want to have the last word. You want to be able to say your piece. You feel that it is only right that you are heard. You believe it to be a fundamental part of any relationship that you are heard and because you find yourself so annoyed, upset and frustrated with the way that we operate, this desire to have the last word, set us straight and assert your position becomes all the more important to you. If the Formal Relationship has ended, you also want to have the last say. You want to let us know what you really think of us. You want to make some last plea to the normalcy you believe still lurks somewhere inside of us. You want to make us hear you, listen and somehow accept that we are wrong and you are right. This desire of yours to say the last word is considerable and flies in the face of our own desire which of course leads to conflict, drama and opposition, all of which creates fuel which is what we want. You are left infuriated if you cannot have your say. You are furious if you have been denied the chance to articulate how you feel. You are upset that your desire to say what you want to say has been ignored, disregarded and treated in a roughshod manner. You want finality. You want some kind of closure and having the last say as we both stare at one another across the smoking ruins of our Formal Relationship is something which matters to you tremendously. We know this. This is why we make it so damn difficult for you to achieve, either talking over you, shouting you down, walking away or just disappearing. You feel cut-off, denied, unfulfilled and this gives us both Thought Fuel and Proximate Fuel if we stay to witness the reaction.

You are preoccupied with thinking about the injustice you have suffered at our hands. the sheer unfairness of what has happened, the need for restitution. You want us to know what we are. You want us to realise that we are bad, awful, horrible, an abuser. You want us to know how you feel. You want to say your piece, articulate your anger, your pain, your bewilderment. Your emotional thinking relishes this happening. If you are thinking about delivering any of the above, in person, through text or smoke signal. If you are discussing this need with a friend or therapist. If you are reading the latest piece of provocation that we have sent you, querying why you have behaved so abominably, criticising your past weekend behaviour with the children or demanding you repay us for some debt. Any and all of these matters will heighten your emotional thinking which will want to go one step further and make you engage with us either by confronting us in person, by ringing us up or firing off that venomous late night text volley.

Your emotional thinking will corrupt your empathic traits of fairness, honesty and decency. It will corrupt those narcissistic traits of pride and envy. Most of all however it will hone in on your empathic truth seeker trait in order to make you endeavour to deliver (your) truth to us in one last proclamation, a final declaration, that signing-off.

When that text arrives and finds you because your no contact regime is poor, it baits you and how many times have you failed to resist responding to this provocation. You have to set us straight, you have to put us right, you just cannot leave it be. Full of righteous indignation, bristling with anger, brimming with (your truth) you have to have that last word and you respond. You text. You email. You social media message. You call. You appear in person.

You provide us with pure fuel or challenge fuel. You risk an adverse response. You heighten your emotional thinking further and get drawn into a war of words, an array of accusations and a tussle of the (differing) truths.

And all this do

The need to have the last word also leads to you being susceptible to being hoovered because you feel that there are loose ends which need tying up. We instinctively  know this and rely on it to keep you hooked and providing fuel to us without ever allowing you to tie up those loose ends correctly. It is all part of the way we continue to manipulate you. No doubt you have found yourself in such a situation. You may now have moved on and know that the last thing you ought to do is engage with us in this way, no matter how tempting it might be. You have learned it will only result in fuel, if handled incorrectly and at worse you might even succumb to our charm once again and be sucked into the Formal Relationship again. Yet the desire to say those things you wish you had been able to say all that time ago or even more recently remains strong and powerful. Of course what you might say now would perhaps differ from what you might have said back then, when you did not know better than what you know now. You did not know what you had been entangled with, nor how you had been manipulated and thus your words would take on a different form compared to if you said them now, armed with knowledge and understanding.

Think back, when the need to say those last words arose, if you could have said them, at the time, what would they have been?

66 thoughts on “Hoover Risk : The Need For the Last Word

  1. Fiddleress says:

    * I know (now) that you are right

  2. Fiddleress says:

    How right you are here, HG!

    I have an overwhelming need to have the last word because I find it so extremely difficult to just disappear without an explanation. I always think I owe people an honest explanation. And because of my pride (big time).

    Five days before I found this blog, I sent my N a (3-page!) letter revisiting our whole relationship, and stating why I no longer wanted to hear from him (as I had already stated at the end of December, but I’d made the huge mistake of not blocking him for good. Thinking he would be put off, and also because I couldn’t bear the idea of my phone still being infected with his number in it somewhere, albeit in the list of blocked numbers!).
    I was matter-of-fact in my letter, mentioned the gaslighting and mind games, but not in a vindicative manner. He received it on February 14th – that was my idea of a Valentine present, though I didn’t think on it as it is not something big in this country.

    As I was half expecting (because my narcissist mother did the exact same thing in her time), he returned my letter, sealed, with this note on the envelope: “No more fits and jitters in my life today. Enjoy your holiday. God bless. A.” He always signed A. Which reminds me of another N I knew as an outer circle friend, who would also sign only with his initials, whereas I found his first name really classy (Louis-Marie). Unlike A’s. But I digress.

    Anyway, my final text to him was sent just jours before I found this blog, and it read: “I was expecting you to return my letter, sealed.There was no fit in it whatsoever. ‘Goodbye’ was the gist of it. Good luck with your life (and then my full first name)’.

    I does make feel better to think I had the last word.

    1. FD, NC is the most powerful last word you can have. Believe me! I was IPSS. I went total NC, changed my number everything and he had absolutely no suspicion at all that I would do this. He could see his devaluation was having a negative effect on me, that was it. But I literally disappeared out of thin air. Left the place we both went to, deleted all SM etc. I know this caused him to feel out of control.

      1. Narc noob says:

        As2016, was that the first time you were going through devaluation that you implemented NC as IPSS? Did you find this site or was it his behaviour that turned you around?

        1. It wasn’t the first time NN. having looked back, I realise I actually have a history of it. If it doesn’t feel nice I have either fooked off (not in a mid-range slink kind of way though – ewww gross) or I have made the other person/people fuck off. ONe of the reasons I repeatedly questioned myself over being a narc myself. Way pre any knowledge of Ns. I guess it must just be an inbuilt thing inside of me.

          1. Narc noob says:

            As2016 you must be a SE!

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah yes! But trust me, it has its pitfalls too NN. I guess there are pluses and minuses to every type of E. I do end up in bitch off’s in most environments. As in everywhere I go there is always this certain type of female who takes an instant dislike to me. Always. I don’t want to have bitch offs. i’d much rather avoid them. But if one has to be had, I will lol.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            one day I plan to write a letter to the N (not actually, just on HG’s site), it will be the first time I went NC. I was very young.

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            HG, I’ve been doing more thinking!?!?!? Lots of time for that in lockdown. Would it be correct for me to assume this particular type of female N who always hates me is a mid who thinks they’re a greater? I don’t know so it’s just a guess, because we don’t like each other from the ‘off’ I don’t get to know them to pick up on enough of their traits.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Use the NDC.

          6. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ahahhaha okey doke will do. Thank you HG

          7. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            I guess I’ll need to compile a list of things as it’s more than one person but all the same.

          9. Narc noob says:


            Ohh, yes, I see a SE with a good dose of magnetism thrown in, no doubt. And some cheekiness for good measure, ha ha.

            I can see how it can be serving you on one hand and also counterproductive on the other. Or is it?

            Some fellow empaths just don’t align with our top traits and we can collide with even them due to having a differing value system. I had a situation recently, a codep friend of mine values loyalty at the top of her empath traits. I value honesty. We collided on an issue and while I took truth she sided with the other individual due to her loyalty to them(funny, they were an N).

            I have a SE friend and she has guts while I don’t so much. I marvel at what she will say and do, her actions do bring about conflict, whereas I try to avoid it, especially where its just a random on the street, etc. I think we all need a SE on our team!

          10. alexissmith2016 says:

            Pre knowledge I would judge people on if they were nice to me I liked them, if not, I didn’t. Now if they have some degree of empathy I have compassion towards them no matter what, even if they irritate me slightly haha.
            It’s tough though when fellow empaths side with a Narc. It can cause much resentment on both sides. I have learned to be very accepting and patient with people, because it is not their fault they don’t see what we do. Most of the time it doesn’t worry me, but just occasionally I feel frustrated by this.

            We need all types of empaths on our team! Everyone is different and equally valuable. I think perhaps saying ‘super’ can make others think it’s great. If we were described as half narc/half empath lol but doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.

          11. Narc noob says:


            “Would it be correct for me to assume this particular type of female N who always hates me is a mid who thinks they’re a greater?”

            Sometimes the answer is See the NDC and other times you might get a bit more of a response. Ha ha

            I don’t know how he can juggle all of those consults. I am in your position. 9 suspects in total to work through.

            Can I ask, why do you suggest she (the mid range N who hates you) thinks she is a greater? Usually they will say something in terms of manipulation or control. They will basically use those terms when they tell someone they know how to make a person act. My MMR SIL will say things like “I know how to control my sister, I know how to make her do as I need”.

          12. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks NN, yes, a girl’s gotta try of course.

            One of the things about is HG is he puts boundaries in place for us. Which I kind of like but kind of don’t like ahah.

            I seem to attract a fair few male mids who believe they are greaters, no idea why? so I’ve learned to spot them and pick up on their traits.

            I’ve not had this same level of interest from female Ns, most of whom I can get on with, there is just a certain type I cannot. And our eyes seem to lock in an instant. This also used to make me wonder whether I was an N, based on the fact that Ps can apparently recognise each other), this is from other authors and not HG as I have learned from HG it is only the greaters who can recognise each other. Although he hasn’t commented on Ps. I digress.
            Because I don’t interact with these women more than I have to (even pre knowldge), I haven’t been able to understand their personality in the same way I have with a guy. I guess in terms of their traits, they are always popular and magnetic, bitchy too. But before we even get to know that about one another like I said, our eyes lock on first meet. Like we instinctively know that we hate each other. With the male mids who beleive they are greaters, they often dip in and out of thinking I’m an E then thinking I’m an N – probably because I don’t allow them the control they desire but I offer more challenge fuel than negativity to them so they keep going. With the females most often, we are nice to each others faces but both know that we despise one another. Anyway, this makes me wonder whether these females are of that variety? The odd one has said the odd comment, for example, one of them when we held hands at one point, I commented how her hands were so cold and said she must have warm heart. I was warm and positive in my interaction with her as always, her response, “I definitely don’t”. So yes, sometimes they give away tells, but sometimes tells can also be instinctive too.

          13. NarcAngel says:

            I know the look you speak of from some other females. It crosses your mind quickly: “here we go”, and sure enough, even though you are friendly and treat them the same as others, they follow what you say and do with an intensity undeserved. Like they are trying to catch you out on something you say or do to prove you are not as you appear or that you have ill intention. Then if you tire of their monitoring and antagonistic behaviour and address it, they then proclaim (usually in the company of others) that they “knew you were a bitch”.

          14. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks NA. It’s great to know you recognise this look also. It’s so strange I noticed it even as a child from certain children as well as adults. But I don’t get this from most Ns, just this certain type.

          15. Narc noob says:

            AS2016, it is interesting to hear your perspective, thank you. I smiled when I read that you like those who like you back and not those that dislike you. Much healthier than my first instinct – I like everyone, until proven otherwise, but especially those that don’t. It intrigues me as to why and how someone can make up their mind about me so quickly and what their reason is, I have been known to run after them.

            Did you say you were an IPSS of a MMR?

          16. alexissmith2016 says:

            You have been known to run after them NN? what do you mean by that if you don’t mind?

            Yes IPSS of probably an MMR who believes he’s a greater. He certainly knew what he was because he made an awful lot of comments which showed his awareness for example, “You’re the prey and I’m the predator”. What a total knob and, “I own you” Prick! When I read HG’s artcile on ‘Own’ I couldn’t believe he’d actually said this. I recall screwing up my nose and looking at him like, no you definitely don’t.

          17. Narc noob says:


            “Yes IPSS of probably an MMR who believes he’s a greater. He certainly knew what he was because he made an awful lot of comments which showed his awareness”

            I believe HG says that only a greater “knows” but UMR can instinctively respond or have insight into certain behaviours/actions. A greater wouldn’t let on, they would know to hold their tongue or say it in a way that isn’t so blatantly obvious.

            “You have been known to run after them NN? what do you mean by that if you don’t mind?”

            It’s pathetic really, but instead of just accepting their dislike I have been in a few situations where I wanted to know why. I might try to have a conversation, or befriend etc. It turned out well once, she is one of my closest friends and not an N 😉

          18. Yes, you’re quite correct NN, the greater knows and the UMR has some degree of insight. But there is another type of mid, HG writes about this kind in the platinum collection. He is a mid who believes he is a greater. I don’t want to spoil it, but essentially has some awareness but not as clever as he thinks he is.

            It’s not pathetic at all. I’m interested in what prompts us all to behave as we do. In those kind of situations, typically, I would cut them off straight away hahahah despite being the ultimate truthseeker (or so I thought). So it’s interesting to me that you would want to follow this up.

          19. HG Tudor says:

            Actually he has no awareness because he singularly fails to recognise what he actually is.

          20. Narc noob says:


            “But there is another type of mid, HG writes about this kind in the platinum collection. He is a mid who believes he is a greater.”

            Yes, I bought that Platinum Collection when I read your comment on another thread about it. Thank you! I tried to explain in my other post what HG points out, (above) but I am not the best communicator/writer. Basically while the MRN says things and admits to control and manipulation in some way or another, when you hold him to it and ask him *how* he went about it, he won’t be able to describe all the plotting, scheming and forethought that goes into a greater execution. Also, greaters won’t usually think or say they are a N. They just know.

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Correct, you summed it up pretty well, NN

          22. alexissmith2016 says:

            Yes, I understand that with a greater. Which makes me wonder whether these women have some kind of idea they’re not quite right and makes me think they’re one of the mids who believe they are a greater.

            I didn’t see you post this commment on another thread – really helpful. thanks for sharing again here NN.

      2. Fiddleress says:

        Alexis, I know you (now) that you are right! This is what I was advised to do (just disappear into thin air), but I couldn’t have it then. It was before I found this blog and started learning.

        I would, just disappear, now . WILL, if I ever have to deal with a narc again.

        My pride put me in real danger. It led me to being hoovered at the beginning of January, of course. He said we could ‘discuss’ things. I am (was?) so proud and pigheaded that I went to his place for that ‘discussion’, which of course amounted to him shouting at me and shouting me down. I was scared to go over (but still did!), because I had seen his stark madness just before Christmas. I had actually told a friend of my precise whereabouts and the time of that ‘discussion’, and asked her to call and send the police if she hadn’t heard from me by a set time. I was afraid he might harm me physically. But also thought it was all in my head, me judging him too harshly, etc.

        Although I came to no physical harm, some serious mental harm resulted from my giving in to seeing him again, and not blocking him, in January. So I would advise anyone who feels that they need to have the last word to realise it is dangerous, as well as futile.

        It only makes me feel better to think I had the last word now because I am still here, but this was a close shave. I would not even try to have the last word now.

        1. I’m pleased no phsyical harm came to you FD and that you found this site. It’s funny how our pride can manifest in different ways. My pride kicks in differently I guess and it would have prevented me from going back at all ever.

          It has been incredibly helpful for HG to point out how my pride works because I now recognise when it’s kicking in on an emotional level and actually use my logical thinking to overcome my pride and it has helped me hugely in many different ways. i’d recommend trait detector to anyone! Although I knew I behaved in certain ways, I didn’t realise it was pride that caused me to e.g. not text someone more than once etc.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Yes, the trait detector is fascinating, incredibly accurate and helpful.

            My truth-seeking trait is very strong, but then so are my argumentativeness and pride. Mix the three together, and you get: “Yes, let’s discuss this, I need to be heard, and have the last word, and NO, I am not scared of him.” Pfff !

            I know I need to work on this, Ooohhh, that’s going to take some effort and time…

            Alexis, you certainly come across as sensible. Your version of pride is really interesting, I’ll have to see if I can train mine to have a bit more common sense than at present!

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            You’ll learn FD – you’re in the right place! And having the last word with an N is just pure fuel for them and they love it! Why give them any opportunity to gain fuel from you. Before when I did NC I did it instinctively to protect myself. Now I’m educated (because I’m not as sensible as you think), I almost invite situations from Ns just so I can go silent on them and see my phone ring off the hook and angry text messages hit my inbox. god I’m sad

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Alexis, inviting situations with Ns just so you can anger them… this is hilarious!

            I didn’t know about fuel then. Now I know total indifference is the only valid answer.
            I am actually working on my look of total indifference at the moment, because the lockdown might be lifted somehow in a week, and I may run into him sooner or later in the street (and I dread it).

            Also, totally off topic: I love the picture of the smoking nun too (like others who commented on it lately)!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It may be hilarious but it is a breach of no contact.

            Indifference and walk away. You will be able to do it by ensuring you have reduced your emotional thinking.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Awww thanks FD. Yes I am many years post the end so I’m well aware what works for me and what doesn’t. I can remember the first time I saw him post NC and it was so very hard. The longer it is until that happens the better. Be strong though expect it to invoke a lot of memories and cause you to doubt yourself. Please don’t. Be strong, the total indifference look is a handy thing to have. And thanks re the nun xxx

          6. Fiddleress says:

            Thanks Alexis. I think I will manage the look of total indifference, and I’ll walk away, that’s for sure. I will be thinking of everyone here, you will be my virtual shield as I walk around the city centre!
            I still dread what it will do to me in the following hours, if I bump into him any time soon. Before lockdown, that was all I could think about when I was out there: “look indifferent, be prepared to not say a single word and to walk away.” It drained me.
            But I have made good progress since then, so it might not be as bad as I expect it to be.
            And I know I can come here to get a dose of logic, aka “a bucket of cold water poured over you”, courtesy of HG Tudor! Effective indeed.

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            I hope it’s not bad for you FD but you’ve come a long way. I found each time it got easier but there were moments when it gripped me and it could be intense, but it passes. And remember no matter what you feel like ok the inside, don’t show it on the outside and he will never know xxxx bloody good luck girl xxxx

          8. Fiddleress says:

            Alexis, you rock!
            Just wanted to let you know that what you wrote means a lot.

            On top of the rest (I am really going to end up wondering what I ever saw in him!), he was hypocondriac. I bet he’ll be going around telling everyone how he got the virus and almost died, but, for his daughter’s sake, he decided to stick it out and postpone death, by suicide, till after the crisis. Sometime.

            Finding him entertaining must be a sign I am moving on.

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahahaa yes, they are incredibly entertaining once you see through them! A wonderfuly positive sign that you’re making excellent progress.
            Ah god, I don’t know you’re N. But I can 100% visualise him saying all that hypo stuff lol. It seems to be quite a common think amongst the mids that they tend to be one of the ‘worried well’.

            There is an article on here somewhere of “hilarious things Ns have said” there are some great ones! I forget what it’s called. Ask @K the librarian -she knows everything!

          10. NarcAngel says:

            It was a poll. Search Ridiculous Statements

          11. Fiddleress says:

            Alexis, thanks for the tip.
            I will look into these – should be a good way of keeping my oscillating ET in check !

        2. Narc noob says:

          Fd, I think it’s reasonable, not pigheaded, to discuss an issue with someone when a relationship goes belly up. Obviously with those that won’t/can’t reason, it’s a different story. You didn’t know what you do now.

          May I ask, is this your first encounter with an N as intimate partner?

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Hi Narc noob, nice to hear from you!
            You are right, I didn’t know then as much as I do now. But I am pigheaded all the same!
            Oh, no, not my first N-encounter at all ! But the shortest-lived (6-7 months of dating/seeing each other), yet the most harmful.
            I really wised up to what he was about 2 weeks after that dreadful “discussion” at the beginning of January, and my whole world came crumbling down: I realised at the same time that the “love of my life” who had died when I was 25, and that I’d been mourning for 25 years until I met this last N (who, of course, reminded me of my dead love!), had in most likelihood been a N too.

            Since I found this blog and started learning, I have now very strong suspicions about two or three others I’ve known too as intimate partners (I never stayed for very long – 9 years was the longest). Knowing what I now know, it makes sense: as HG says, when you’ve had a narcissist parent, the addiction to Ns is all the more brutal.

            Fancy having to wait till you hit 50 to suddenly see what direction your life should take. Damn. I’ll have to stick around for another 50, and do like Dorian Gray to keep my looks! Oh wait: he sold his soul to the devil, didn’t he? Now, we don’t want this anymore, do we…

            Oops, got a bit carried away here with my life story! (nice break from work – home working!).

            What about you, Narc noob? Have you been involved with more than one N?

        3. Narc noob says:

          FD, thanks for the reply. I enjoyed reading that, take some time off work and let your hair down, why not 😊

          You have made a lot of progress and maybe being 50 isn’t so bad as you have applied it and acted where some of us do not. Seems like that discussion in January was needed to break the camel’s back. I say that only as it’s in the past now and the light bulb went on for you, a bittersweet moment, no doubt! The same happened to me. The first silent treatment and I went searching, I was in a bad place also.

          As for intimate partners, no, I don’t believe any have been Ns. My father is one, though, and I’ve known all along that people like him attract me but also repel – usually it’s the more sophisticated types that draw me in, a few rungs up from my father in terms of his narcissism. I have had N female friends in the past who (mostly) don’t last long, usually due to my big mouth (which is actually my truth seeker/honest trait playing out). I was pretty concerned with the business partners I had attracted. I have since cut ties with 2 but a 3rd has one tie left – and I only just realised that while writing this message! I do have a large family and so another 4 on my side and 3 on my partners side.

          Hope you are well and coping in lockdown. I’m not jealous of the majority of major countries at all, as we are pretty free in Aus. Talk soon.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you for your reply, Narc noob.
            I found it funny to read you have a “big mouth”! Don’t lose it, it helps, at times!
            I try to be careful with my own big mouth, which usually opens at work with some of my colleagues that are real doormats, willing slaves who won’t speak up against harmful or unfair decisions that are imposed on us.They really get on my nerves, and then the words that spill out of my mouth can be like bullets out of a kalashnikov.
            Well, I wish I’d got the verbal kalashnikov working with my exN too. He may have guessed I had one, so he quickly hung a “Handle With Care” sign round his neck, so to speak. And it did the trick.

            Good on you that you never had an narcissist for an intimate partner.
            You said you realised that you still had ties with a 3rd business partner you were concerned about, just as you wrote your message; interesting! You can tell me about it – if you like, that is.

            Lockdown will slowly be lifted as from Monday here, but we can’t travel further than 60 miles from our home. Still , I can’t wait to be able to see friends as and when I wish, even if bars and restaurants, and theatres and the like will remain closed.

      3. lisk says:

        Wow, AS2016. What a delicious implementation of No Contact!!!

        I am envious. I wish I could have done it your way. Unfortunately, I did not realize I was being devalued. I did not know of HG at the time. I remember reading about “gaslighting” elsewhere, and even watching the movie on our TV screen, but I just did not grasp what was really going on.

        I’m glad you “got it” and got out. Did you know of HG at the time or did you instinctually GOSO?

        1. lisk says:

          Oops! You NN asked similar question and you answered above!

          I think, once upon a time, I too had it in me to get out when something irked me about someone. For some reason, I really let a lot of NarcX’s shenanigans slide. I believe I was desperate on many levels.

        2. Thanks Lisk, Yes, instinctively. I do look back on it rather fondly now. At the time it was complete emotional turmoil inside. It really wasn’t easy. But somehow I just instinctively knew it was the only way for me.
          Being that way does also cause me lots of problems in other ways though, so no need at all to be envious.
          I’m interested, you didn’t know you were being devalued (nor did I, I just knew it didn’t feel nice and I was confused as anyone), when did you realise? and what was going through your head during the early devaluation? what did you think about it?
          I didn’t know of HG back then. I didn’t know what an N was until after I went NC. I confided in a friend who knew a little about narcs and he suggested to me that perhaps he was one.

          But HG’s website, information and advice has enhanced my instinct and also allowed me to work against my instinct when it is detrimental to me too. Which is great.

      4. blackcoffee30 says:

        As2016 I’m glad to read your post. I recently went IPSS during devaluation, but now see I was very close to disengagement. I’m having a difficult time of it. I mean of processing what happened.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          blackcoffee it is a huge, huge thing you’ve been through. I don’t know your story but I do know the damage Ns can do for sure! It is no small undertaking working out what has happened. It’s a very long time ago for me now and I recall going from thinking he was an N to doubting it back and forth for a while. But the more I read the more I identified with. Eventually the less it hurts. Because I have never experienced emotional pain on that level before or since. It’s hard for me to recall what that was like, I just do remember it was that bad.

          I can remember feeling so terrible and chatting on a blog (pre HG), the support I received from others was amazing. They kept telling me that I would feel better, that they too had been where I was, I thought that was impossible, but they were so right. There really is a life after an N and it’s so much better. And it’s waiting for you. I wish I could jump through the internet and take your hand and show you blackcoffee xxx

          1. blackcoffee30 says:

            Thank you, it means a lot. I think I am making progress and the BAM something new that I didn’t know pops up. The lies are outrageous, and it’s crazy he thought that I wouldn’t find out he didn’t actually move out of town. I have a lot to work through, but happy and surprised I found support here.

        2. Fiddleress says:

          blackcoffee30: Alexissmith2016 has said it better than I could. I totally agree with her.

          I have only been on this blog for two and a half months, and when I got here, I felt as if I was suffering from third-degree burns, inside and outside.
          Less than a month ago, I told someone here that I felt it had come down to second-degree burns, and only on the inside.
          Today, I’d say it feels like a first-degree burn, which in fact I do not even feel all the time.

          I am sure you know this, but you will get better, and you have found the best place you could ever find: this blog, and HG’s books.

          By the way (just to make you smile): great pseudo ! I only ever have my coffee black. Strong. No sugar.


          1. NarcAngel says:

            I like my coffee the same and prefer bitter, salty, and a pronounced taste in foods. Then I read these preferences are shared by psychopaths. Oh dear. I know there is really no truth to it but just as a precaution I have started to include more desserts. One never can be too sure.

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Indeed you never know, wise move to include more desserts.
            What you wrote gives me an excellent excuse to do the same, because I also prefer the foods you mention.
            And I have never liked sweets, not even as a kid – if that wasn’t the sign of a something weird cooking, at that time already!

          3. blackcoffee30 says:

            Thank you Fiddleress. There is no judgment here, and I needed to know what was going on in his mind– HG to the rescue. I’m starting to feel better, but it’s only been 47 days NC out of a 6 year relationship. So, I am trying to be patient with myself. Your analogy is spot on. It will take time to heal.

            Haha the better the quality coffee, the better is it black. 🙂

      5. Lorelei says:

        Hi Alexis. I think HG’s work with sub-divisions is genius. (Can’t reply below under your half narc/half empath comment) The one associated element is that some of the terms have been interpreted to denote characteristics of inadvertent insinuations at times. I don’t view you as half narc. Nor does anyone. All lessers aren’t dumb. The leader of the most influential country in the world is a lesser. He’s not a genius no, but Trump is not in need of special academic classes as much as it may pain someone that hates him to acknowledge this. (Pains me a little) Even HG has indicated in his work that a lower greater has some of the elements of the lessers, hence the use of the associated designation. I’m assuming HG’s aim was to create a framework of explaining behaviors. Not to denigrate anyone, and this includes you or a CD or a standard empath. In fact, he even wrote a middle greater would be so inclined as to sleep with a partner’s sister. (Yuck) Feels incesty.
        I’m thinking that there are cultural restrictions that also place some variances in how these empathic traits can even be expressed. It’s complicated. It is not necessarily a doormat designation to not be a this or that. (Although generally speaking a SE tolerates much less) I’ve left two of the three men I have lived with in my life. You may well have left all three. But it doesn’t make you narcy. I think I stayed to feed my own addiction on some level. That feels pretty narcy. I have a friend who made an uncomfortable blatant racial comment that has been eating at me for a week. It may have been rebutted immediately by you, maybe not. I’m possibly letting it fester longer than a SE, but be assured if it happens again we are having a serious talk. Sitting Target is great, but Bill still married Hilary. The fact is, there are fewer absolutes because people are complicated & prime aims are fed in a number of ways. The one thing that is not fluid though—neither of us are bringing home an unemployed lower lesser. Fuck that. HG is also unlikely to seduce Cardi B. When her nails come out look out!! That bitch is vicious.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          HG’s work with sub-divisions is genius. I’d like all professionals everywhere to read, understand and apply his work.

          POTUS is a lesser indeed. l’m not so confident re his intelligence. I’ve seen quite a few ULNs who are incredibly successful because they have the belief to just bulldoze their way through and convince many people of their brilliance when really they are thick as pig shit.
          Interesting re the LGN having some traits in common with the lessers. I must go back to the fuel matrix and revisit it. Still waiting for the final couple of articles on ‘When narcs collide’. Sigh.
          hahah his framework is excellent, well except the label of dirty empath of course, that one needs a new name for sure!

          I reckon there are a few Ns who would sleep with their partner’s sister. so so so so incredibly disgusting. The mids who believe they’re greaters would definitely do this 100%, given the chance.
          Cultural influence will no doubt have a difference on how both E and Ns behave.

          I understand what you’re saying re the SE and I would and have been in relationships in the past a long time ago which were unhealthy, but I guess I was fuelled (addicted) to some extent and although there was a little emotional pain, it wasn’t huge. And I’d give as good as I got so probably too challenging perhaps. It’s when that balance tips and it becomes too painful, that’s when I would get out swiftly and not stick around. I wouldn’t do second chances.

          You’re not narcy to stay either. We all feed our addictions.
          Re your friend who made an uncomfortable blatant comment, I have to say, honestly, it really isn’t something I come up against very often. I think where I live people are incredibly liberal. I do have friends who live in other areas, some just 10 miles away and it’s completely different, I have heard the odd racial comment.
          I don’t always step in when someone is being wronged, it does very much depend on the exact circumstance. Post knowledge I channel this far better too. I have no loyalty whatsoever to Ns whereas previously I would have done.

          hahah ewww HG and Cardi B! I’m sure he could find a way to draw fuel from her.

          1. Lorelei says:

            My friend asked if I’d ever dated a black man. I am
            Furious when people make such inquiries. It is often a racist based query. She then stated she’d only date a CEO black man because they have a long way to go to dispel the stereotype of being lazy seed spreaders. I’m still furious. I adore her, but her view is wrong. It’s the product of limited worldly exposure which is the essence of sub par racial connotations.

          2. Good god! Yup, I’d have definitely said something to that! No wonder you’re furious.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Indeed Alexis. She’s an empath yes, but it angers me on many levels. It’s an arrogant and ignorant form of racism when you try and bond through sharing such comments. I have come up against this sort of shit before. Repeatedly. It’s the mindset of many whites that appear progressive until doors are closed. It makes me furious to think about it. The child I want to take custody of is black. My blood pressure is going up.

          4. When I do venture into work, I work in the city which is very multicultural. Some of my colleagues do tell me they experience racism. But I can honestly say that even behind closed doors I don’t hear it. Except on a rare occasion and when I’m with friends outside of the area I live. I think I live in a bubble sometimes.

            If someone is an empath and they have views I don’t agree with, I would certainly try and educate them. Maybe ask her why she thinks that, unpick it with her and explain your view. Much better than letting your BP rise.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Most racism is subconscious

          6. Lorelei says:

            Oh and I can’t help but say this—imagine HG mirroring Cardi! I’m glad he’s an ocean away after writing that!

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            hmmm hahah now there’s a though!

            HG are there some people you’d opt not to mirror?

            And would greaters in general use mirroring less?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            James Corden.

            In general, yes, we use it, but because of other weapons available mirroring is not needed as much.

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            hahaha of course! Will you do an analysis of JC one day. I don’t know enough of him but when he comes up in a topic of conversation in our house (I know, this is terrible conversation, is his name worse than using the word hope?), I attempt to explain he is not a good person but I don’t have anything to back myself up with.

            Thanks re the mirroring answer and greaters.

            I’ve noticed some mids mirror to a sickly extent. I was at a dinner party once with a group of close friends. My friend had arranged the dinner party so we (her close friends) could all meet her new girlfriend. The new girl was trying to mirror everyone at the table, even though we all had differing views on several matters, she attempted to mirror each of us on each of our different view points during the same conversation. Although upsetting at my friend’s choice of partner. I found it hilarious what the new girl was trying to do. Annoyingly no-one else noticed.

        2. Narc noob says:

          Hello Lorelei, I thought I’d butt in and say I was enjoying your conversation in this thread and two others. It sounds like you are juggling quite a lot, still. Trust things are sorted with your boy, soon.

          Are you a Geyser by any chance? Have you done the trait detector test?

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