The Micro Managing Narcissist



The Micro Manager is someone who does not describe what he or she wants done and then trusts in someone else to know what to do and how to do it. Instead, the Micro Manager is someone who effectively stands over the shoulder of the person charged with performing the task or project and excessively directs, interferes and criticises, often insisting on changes and then wanting it to be changed back to the way it was before whilst denying it had been correct the first time anyway. Micro management is not in itself a conclusive indicator that somebody is one of our kind, but micro management is a form of manipulation that is used by our kind to further control and gain fuel.

It will be used most commonly in two environments ; the home with the Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”) and the workplace with Non Intimate Secondary Sources (“NISS”) although you might be doubly unlucky and be an IPPS who works with us also. Good luck with that.

In the domestic environment, the Micro Managing Narcissist (“MMN”) creates a highly unpleasant, oppressive and demanding atmosphere. Whilst our manipulations as a whole cause our victims to second guess and walk on those well known eggshells, the MMN ramps the experience up to a new level.

Whatever task you are engaged in the MMN will be making his or presence known. There are a variety of ways this will manifest:-

  1. Watching you carry out tasks and chores but not saying anything. If you ask why the MMN is watching you, you will be met with

“Don’t mind me, I am just staying out of the way before it goes wrong.”

“Can’t I watch my wife doing some work for once?”

“Just keeping an eyes on things.”

“I am waiting to sort it out when it all goes belly up.”

2. Repeatedly passing you as you are engaged in doing something and sighing, rolling their eyes or tutting and if you challenge them you will either be met with one of the responses above or similar or a denial that anything was said and that you are imagining things.

3. Standing over you and commenting in a critical fashion about what you are doing, pointing out that you are doing it wrong, that you are going to break it if you keep doing that, it will never work doing it that way, you are going too fast/too slow/ and so forth. If you react to this you will be told you are over-reacting, that you cannot take criticism or that we were only trying to help.

4. Being the expert. Rather than expressly criticising what you are doing as per item three above, this time the MMN will be telling you precisely how it should be done as per his or her expert knowledge but of course we will not lower ourselves to actually help you do it or show you how it ought to be done. We would rather stand on the sidelines and snipe at you.

5. Bringing the expert along. Similar to the above but we will just happen to know some expert who knows a better way of pruning that bush and if you respond to this, then we will retaliate with “So are you saying such and such is not an expert then?” in order to make you feel that you are out of line for issuing such a challenge.

6. Providing a running commentary on what you are doing as if you are not there and we are talking to someone else. “She is never going to get them to sit right doing it that way is  she?” or “Oh dear, he won’t remove that stain doing that, what a schoolboy error.” This form of micro management is especially dehumanising by acting as if you do not exist.

Invariably you may well be doing nothing wrong but this looking over your shoulder behaviour will put you on edge and make you anxious which means you may make mistakes which of course we will seize on with a cry of triumph and the all too familiar “told you so”.

Everything you do is scrutinised, commented on, observed and ultimately expressly or implicitly criticised. This is designed to make you feel worthless and devalued. It naturally is aimed at drawing fuel from you, whether through hurt, upset, anger or frustration. Whatever your reaction happens to be, do not expect that we will provide you with any support or encouragement. Instead your response, whilst welcomed as fuel, will be used against you.

“There is no point getting upset about it, you need to learn to do it better.”

“Don’t try and blame me for your shortcomings, I am sick of you doing that.”

“I try and help you and this is how you react? You are so ungrateful.”

“If you did it right the first time I wouldn’t have to comment would I?”

If you try to make us carry out the task we will just shake our head and walk away muttering some insult under our breath or tell you that it is not a solution to try and pass the task to someone else, you need to learn how to do it right.

You should also expect our contradictory nature to make an appearance. Thus last week we told you that you should always put the milk in the mug before adding the tea bag and then this week it is the other way around. Do not think that pointing this out to us will cause us to accept the contradiction; there is fuel to be gathered by keep doing this.

All of your endeavours in the home will be subjected to scrutiny and observation. We will stand and watch you as you iron or clean. We will comment on the way you are cooking the evening meal, doing the gardening, putting items in the cupboards and so forth. Whatever you are doing will be subjected to this behaviour by the MMN.

The following are the aims of the MMN :-

  1. Fuel from your responses;
  2. Exertion of close and detailed control;
  3. Erosion of your self-worth;
  4. Gas-lighting;
  5. Creation of anxiety and tension

Is this something that all of our kind engage in? No it is not. The Lesser Narcissist will engage in such behaviour and his approach will be one of repeated criticism and exasperation at your apparent incompetence. They tend to engage in behaviours 1,2 and 3 the most. The Mid-Ranger will also do this and be more inclined to operate in the way described in behaviours 4,5, and 6. Greaters, of all the schools of narcissist are less inclined to engage in MMN because they will regard even commenting on what you are doing around the house as beneath them. They consider it too mundane and boring to merit spending time observing you. Instead, they are far more likely to go for an After The Event Put Down such as:-

“This dessert is quite good but obviously nowhere near as good as mine last week.”

“Is this shirt meant to be ironed?”

“What on earth is this abortion of an effort?”

“It is not going to win any awards.”

“I don’t know  why you bothered, it will be dead within the week.”

“I hadn’t realised Jackson Pollock had decorated the study.”

“I see the blind window cleaner has visited us again.”

The Greater will just prefer to shoot down your endeavour at the end, fully aware of the effort that you have put into the particular task or project and undoing it with a sarcastic or hurtful remark. This is more his approach than spending time watching you do something mundane and remark on it.

How then do you counter the MMN in the home?

  1. As ever do not react to the jibes, comments and observations. If you avoid providing fuel the MMN has less of a motivation for engaging in the behaviour and will either stop it or at least do it less often.
  2. Get a professional in to perform the tasks. Even if for just one week, hire a cleaner, gardener, someone to iron the clothing, order takeaway meals every night. Once the bills arrive you will of course be blamed but you have saved yourself a whole host of effort.
  3. Perform the tasks for yourself and the children but not for the MMN. He will of course complain and this will ignite his fury but you were being undermined and devalued you anyway. This still happens but you are saving yourself some effort. The MMN whilst entitled also wants those residual benefits that you provide and if you withdraw them they will look to manipulate you into reinstating them and this may well be through the provision of compliments and reward. Of course there is a risk of additional threats being made, but no doubt these will be no worse than what you are already experiencing.
  4. Don’t invite the MMN to try and do a better job. You are just giving fuel and the MMN will not regard your behaviour as something he needs to address. Whilst you might think there is a temptation for him to prove his superiority by doing the task, his desire to avoid expending energy unnecessarily and his sense of entitlement means he will find some reason not to do it.
  5. Instead you may consider framing the request in terms of “I need an expert to show me how it is done” this will not always work but stands a better chance of engaging the MMN to pitch in by appealing to his sense of superiority than challenging it.
  6. Remain an IPSS.

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201 thoughts on “The Micro Managing Narcissist

  1. Supernova DE says:

    Just want to say I am exponentially better at spotting what is really going on with these convos around here now. I can see how much progress and education HG has provided me, as when I first arrived (3 years ago!) I had a hard time following these threads and understanding the real motivations behind certain contributor’s words.

    In itself, some of these conversations/interactions provide education.
    Thanks for putting up with “pathetic” people for us in order to provide examples and education HG

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Supernova DE.

  2. Violetta says:

    So we finally had The Meeting, the one where the management urge us to solve everything with Better Communication. GL said things hadn’t happened when they had and said things had happened that hadn’t. When I went over some of the items on my list, the management talked about Looking Toward the Future instead of Dwelling on the Past. GL was close to tears, and, realizing that the Director was probably a higher-functioning mid-ranger than GL, I allowed myself to get teary-eyed too. If it weren’t Covid, we would probably have had to hug each other.

    What didn’t happen: terror, panic, bewilderment, wondering how GL could spout such fiction when she seemed absolutely sincere, wondering how these people always scent me down, wondering, panicked, if this would follow me to every workplace. I knew there were narcs almost everywhere, but they had different styles, and there were some I could work with. If I had to find another job, so be it, but there were enough things I liked about this job so I was willing to stick it out for the time being. GL has lightened up, but I will not experience astonishment if she relapses occasionally or finds a new victim. I was disappointed to perceive that the Director was probably a narc (not sure about the assistant), but not entirely surprised—I had suspected it before.

    So why didn’t all those nasty things in the second paragraph things happen? Because I have been reading and listening to HG’s work for over a year, so I knew what was going on. It was unpleasant, but it wasn’t devastating. No churning stomach, no mindless fear about the alternate reality in the room. I was dealing with at least one narc, possibly two; I suspected that the Director was most interested in smoothing over the conflicts so the company could continue to make money without having to engage in another exhausting search, vet, hire, and train process for either one of us, so any campaign to get another employee fired would backfire on the campaigner, even if it was successful (or especially if it was successful).

    I have never been to any such meeting, whether in my schooldays or with any employer, without experiencing blind terror, puzzlement at the alternate universe everyone else seemed to inhabit, and of course doubt: “It must be me. Everyone thinks it is. I find people who like me almost everywhere I go, but there’s usually at least one person who zeroes in on me like a homing device, and the ones who take my side can’t protect me, even if I find out later that there were continued problems after I moved up a grade or got a different job. People who openly break school rules or company policy don’t get the grief I do. What is it about me?”

    It’s Fuel, and as HG has repeatedly stated, I can’t change who I am nor should I. Thanks to the economic ramifications of the pandemic, this line of work may not be any more stable than some others; I even overheard GL saying that her husband’s company was reorganizing and she was worried. Whatever happens, I’ll deal with it as best I can, but the cold recognition that this is what narcs do kept me grounded. I wouldn’t choose to have a romantic relationship or even a close friendship with one (you can’t always avoid them as acquaintances), but it’s likely I’ll continue to run into them in the workplace. I might have to decide whether it’s worth risking a different, possibly worse flavor of narc if I change departments or companies to get away from the current one.

    But I know what I’m dealing with.

    HG, let me know if you ever need me to commit a crime for you. I’d do it in a heartbeat.

  3. NarcAngel says:

    I can’t believe it. Flipping stations and came across an episode of The Office. The title is “Gay Witch Hunt”. Steve Carell character (I don’t follow the show so don’t know his name) just said: “Gay used to mean happy, then lame and homosexual. Did you know that?” to another character. How’s that for timing?

    1. Another Cat says:

      Yep, most onesyllable words are with time kidnapped to a meaning of genitalia or something derrogatory.

      1. Another Cat says:

        (not that homosexual would be anything less than respectful, but the word gay became so for a while around 16 yrs ago)

    2. K says:

      Hahahaha…serendipity NarcAngel! The Office is a riot; I am gonna watch that episode.

    3. njfilly says:

      That’s funny!

      The Office was another of the handful of shows I watched when I used to watch TV. I think it’s a hysterical show. A different setting and style than Seinfeld, but similar in that many of life’s situations are explained in the episodes.

      Did you watch the episode and did you like it?

    4. K says:

      This is worth checking out. # 27 made me laugh!

      1. NarcAngel says:

        More than #27 made me laugh, but it’s more sad in it’s truth than funny (from my perspective).

        1. K says:

          Hahahahaha….I agree; it’s pretty sad.

        2. K says:

          P.S. NA

          Great news! The (city) Library Director was forced to resign, two of her lieutenants have also resigned, and the Mayor has dismantled the Library Trustees, one of whom had been a sitting member for 30 years. Needless to say this individual is suing the Mayor.

          I have been informed me that the Staff are giddy!!

          1. NarcAngel says:


            Wow, that’s quite a shake-up. It will be interesting to see what changes result.

  4. NarcAngel says:

    “HG always tells you’re preoccupied with sex on this blog”
    “Many of his comments to you are veered to that. All the time”

    I acknowledge that I have discussed and made jokes about sex. Since the above statements indicate an ongoing problem and involve your having to address them, would you be so kind as to clear the air?

    Do you feel that the above statements are factual? Always and all the time appear to have you taxed with moderating the volume and trying to contain me in this regard.

    What percentage of my comments would you say involve sex?

    When you address my comments are you responding in the spirit of banter and humour, or are you trying to point out to me that I have a problem in that regard (a preoccupation with sex).

    I appreciate any response you care to give so that I can view the assertions in the proper light. The choices currently being viewed are:

    1. A reflection on my contributions to the blog.
    2. Dismiss as unnecessary smear due to someone else’s emotional thinking.

    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. I do not have a forensic answer and nor am I (and I know you would not expect me to) going to evaluate your 8 165 comments on this blog to determine what percentage are sex related. From my interaction with you over several years, I would suggest less than 3% would be sex related.
      2. I have not stated that you are preoccupied with sex on this blog. Those are words being put “in my mouth”.
      3. When I respond to your comments I do so in a light hearted manner having go to know that part of your personality as a consequence of your long term involvement on the blog.
      4. For the avoidance of doubt, I do not regard you as having a preoccupation with sex.

      1. Authentic says:

        I did happen to come across a comment where HG said is that all you think about and then HG Referred a sex book for her to read lol.

        And I have read some comments of hers and she kind of has a preoccupation with sex and being vulgar and or crude about it.
        Not classy but I’m guessing that’s her schtick on this blog to get attention.

        I do agree with Julie though, being bi sexual, we have enough shame and go through enough “jokes”. Being gay does not mean lame and never has to me.

        Thank you Julie, do not let anyone stop you from advocating for those that may not have a voice. Its a shame some people still need educating. I think people need to be more aware of who reads this blog, so you don’t alienate potential LGBTQIA people as they also suffer narcissistic abuse.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, however as I have already stated this was banter. You may not have picked up on that as a consequence of being a first time commenter, albeit perhaps you have read for a time without being moved to comment.

          Furthermore, you are naturally entitled to state that being gay does not mean lame and never has to you, that is fair enough. What it does not do is alter the fact that it IS used by many people (and this is irrespective of the rights and wrongs of doing so, a point which Julie´s original comment did not make and which she repeatedly failed to understand) to mean lame.

          Your sentiment about avoiding alienating people is a fair one. The message about the rights and wrongs of using gay to mean lame became lost owing to the inability of the issuer of the original statement to accept that her original comment was nothing at all to do with the issue of whether it was right or wrong (that came later) and was everything to do with the meaning afforded to the word “gay”. I accept that YOU reject the meaning of lame, you can do so, what you cannot do is deny that (rightly or wrongly) many other people do use the term gay to mean lame (a simple use of google shows a plethora of articles about such usage).

          I have allowed people to articulate their views about this issue. The subject is now closed. Any continuance of the issue appertaining to gay meaning lame and/or the relative moral rights or wrongs of using it as such will be deleted.

          1. Authentic says:

            Banter lol.
            Ah no thanks, prefer reading intelligent insight and comments coming from real empathic individuals who have the passion to believe in things that matter.Julie sounds like someone who doesn’t need banter from anyone to remain a force within herself and that in my eyes is far more attractive, than receiving banter from a narcissist. You can’t say she isn’t attractive!
            Started reading in 2020. Great content BTW.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Hello Inauthentic or more accurately hello Julie.

          3. Julie Petkovska says:

            Sorry, can’t take credit for authentic..if that’s what you think. But they haven’t said anything I don’t agree with

            I am one with the force!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It’s what I know. You’re bound to agree with what they’re saying.

            I am the one with the information.

          5. Julie Petkovska says:

            You have information. Cool.
            Authentic is not me.
            If I have an issue with you, I deal with you. Whether it’s someone who knows me and wants to stick up for me, cool, many of my friends and on social media have seen this conversation and thread doesn’t bother me. Didn’t think they couldn’t post. If I know them or if I don’t Big deal. I don’t hide and say I don’t post on your blog.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            If it is not you, then they know you and both of you failed to disclose that fact which impacts on the credibility of your comments.

          7. Julie Petkovska says:

            The credibility of my comments are constantly in question, so that is new nothing new. Someone feels that you and members of the blog have treated me poorly, I cannot stop them commenting, I do speak about this blog in my personal life. I do encourage people to read your blog. As I said I have a diverse group of friends, both personal and professional who believe I did the right thing and who weren’t to happy with your responses, I even discussed this at work, which lead me to now assist in implementing a more robust diversity and inclusion program in recruitment for our branch. For me it ended well. Not sure what the ladies kept going on about. My last comment was 23.1. Until I was alerted to authentic by a reader actually this morning. Take it or leave it.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            So, they were not too happy with me pointing out that your original statement was

            1. Wrong , and
            2. Could not be read in any way whatsoever to mean what you then changed it to later on.

            This was pointed out to you repeatedly and you failed to grasp this repeatedly. Instead, you kept referring to how the term should not be used which was NOT what was being explained to you and NOT what you originally wrote.

            You keep mixing up the arguments. Not once did I state that the term should be used in that way, I stated that it has been afforded that usage, something you could not grasp. Therefore the basis for your group´s “not too happy” is similarly misplaced.

            You were not treated poorly by me at all. You were corrected and I did so politely. To suggest to the contrary is simply wrong.

            I appreciate you recommending my work to people.

            This topic is concluded.

          9. authentic says:

            This isn’t Julie lol
            I promise

          10. HG Tudor says:

            If not, you certainly know her and you are a friend of hers.

          11. Witch says:

            “You can’t say she is not attractive”

            Honey, just shoot your shot and ask the woman on a date already cause I sense that there are real feelings here

          12. fox says:

            It did seem a little odd that this person just showed up on the blog to defend Julie. I was suspicious already but HG would know for sure.

          13. Violetta says:


            I don’t know if HG can see IPAs, but he may not need them to spot a sock-puppet. There’s one recurring squawk-n-scat flyby seagull who doesn’t even change gravatars. Sometimes the prose style is a giveaway (I’ve taught English, so I notice those ).

          14. fox says:

            I took a look at the comment section of a site I recently built, and yes the IP does show up, so I suspect that is how he knows. It’s sad that she would resort to that over this petty squabble though, and had to throw ‘attractive’ in there too for good measure.

          15. Witch says:

            On a positive note, I saw this lesbian movie last night: “The World Unseen“
            10/10 recommended also narc and empath related, very touching

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Thank you HG. I appreciate the gift of your time and response.

    2. Violetta says:

      Don’t worry, NW: that’s not you. I’M totally obsessed with sex.

      1. Violetta says:

        Because I’m a former copyeditor who can’t check my own work.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Haha, this has shades of: No, I am Spartacus! all over it.

          Obsession in this case is merely individual opinion (which of course people are entitled to) and not fact, so neither of us need be concerned.

          Has there been any response to your bulletin board posting by your workplace narc to date?

          1. Violetta says:

            Supposed to be this week, but a massive snowstorm has thrown everything off schedule. I may get only a few days of anyone looking at it at all….oops!


    3. Alexissmith2016 says:

      I don’t think I’ve actually read a comment of yours which relates to sex NA?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Well you’ve been here longer than I and are a regular reader/contributor so that speaks volumes. Also, knowing your sense of humour – I must say you’ve missed out!

  5. Violetta says:

    OK, so HG has confirmed GrinchLady is a narcissist, specifically a lower mid-range. GL monitors everything I do in the hopes of finding flaws, is visibly disappointed when she doesn’t find them (she recently told me I had to do X, and when I told her I had already done X, her face fell), tries to sabotage me by giving me contradictory instructions or instructions that run counter to company policy. I’ve been logging our interactions, and laying the groundwork with the higher-ups by occasionally saying things like, “I just want to.confirm that we do Y and Z in this situation,” and making sure they know that GL said otherwise.

    We have a department activity where people are assigned a small bulletin board for photos of themselves, friends, and family, info about their interests, etc., in an effort to help us get to know each other in a time of social distancing. People have answered questions about their perfect day, favorite movie, put clip art of dancing and music to represent their hobbies, etc.

    Do I put up.something bland and generic so GL can’t try to use it for more manipulations or resent me for not having the equivalent of her dreary vacation pictures in Pensacola? Or do I say “fuck that,” and put up stills and programs of shows I did, reenactment pics when I was younger, thinner, and presumably better-looking, and have her hate me worse than ever? (I’m taking photos with my phone so no originals will be harmed in the making of my b-board, even if she decides to draw moustachios on all the stills.)

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Maybe it’s just me, but I find this bulletin board exercise a horror and would not participate.

      Wait…I take that back. Plaster the board with KTN articles and watch the show.

      1. K says:

        I would not participate either NarcAngel. Is this how normal people behave or is this a gay (lame) midrange thing. I would stick a Voodoo Doll on it, with pins stuck through the heart and eyes.

        Violetta fuck it; it will just be another Hoover Tigger for GL.

        1. Violetta says:

          She didn’t plan it; the whole department is doing it. We get squishy, sometimes. There was an online session on Inclusion and making people feel Welcome, something she’s not done from day one.

          1. K says:

            Squishy is ok as long as you don’t get in trouble or fired.

            I contradicted myself; putting a Voodoo Doll on the bulletin board would be participation, so the Voodoo Doll is out.

          2. BC30 says:

            I would do it, but be bland. Post pics of puppies and kittens, maybe some chickens, and beaches.

            Pleased to read you are documenting everything–smart move.

          3. Violetta says:


            Isn’t “lame” offensive to people with physical disabilities?

            I recommend “pathetic.”

          4. Violetta says:

            OK, here’s the revised list of posting items:

            -Pic of my brother and me as preschoolers

            -pic of family at a restaurant (I shall not mention that it was Cuba Libre in Atlantic City, or that we all agreed it wasn’t a patch on Calle Ocho)

            -2 pics with an honorary niecelet

            -a photo of a quiet little grad student party (as opposed to our drunken football-watching bashes–the medievalists appreciated the tournament pageantry)

            -2 shots of Top Withens

            -a shot of Kings Cross exterior and a shot of me under the “Platform 9-3/4” sign, which a staffer was kind enough to take (there are other Harry Potter fans in the dept.)

            Considering: a medieval reenactment sheet wall pic of “Bard Simpson” in Elizabethan dress, saying “Have Thee Not a Cow”

            GL has actually spoken of sewing a bodice for Civil War reenactments, but when she showed us a picture of a family member at some other event, she specified, “That’s a kilt he’s wearing,” so I think photos of people who live and breathe LARP and CosPlay would be kind of threatening to her. I know people who’ve done Hawaiian Tudor, perfect in every detail, except with splashy flowered material, as a joke. A shot of a local Civil War ball (canceled this year, of course) with people who did their outfits from scratch out of Godey’s Ladies’ Book (I usually cut-and-paste thrift shop items, or at least attach gathered panels of a skirt from raw fabric to a fitted bodice from thrift) would probably enrage her, even if I’m not in the photo.

            As for Celts in Kilts, people who were at my first major camping reenactment event have stories about me….

            Mea minima culpa. As usual.

            My only temptation to use the original more personal items is the chance she’ll blow a gasket in front of management and show her true colors. She has scarcely any filter even when not provoked.

          5. Violetta says:


            “Maybe a little less sex talk from you grandma and more intelligence”


          6. K says:

            Excellent Narcivist skills Violetta! Keep up the good work.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Back to the original discussion…

            Please do let us know the reaction (from all) of the bulletin board exercise if you choose to participate. Your wondering about what to post is more geared to how to protect yourself than provoke right?

          8. Violetta says:


            Thank you, you have trained this Padawan well.

            Is my revised list for the Bulletin board sufficiently bland, or am I showing too much personality?

          9. K says:

            Violetta (Padawan)
            Hahahahaha…you are learning the ways of The Force indeed. Re: Bulletin board; your revised list is sufficiently bland. Good job!

        2. Julie Petkovska says:

          Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes it does. It started off meaning care free, then became a description for someone who is homosexual and then started to be used (mainly by younger people) as a term of derision meaning something was a bit rubbish, a bit “pants”.

          2. Julie Petkovska says:

            Actually No. She was using it in a derogatory term
            You cannot use it as a put down. It should never be used as a less than or rubbish

          3. HG Tudor says:

            No. You wrote “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.”
            But gay is used to mean lame.
            You have shifted your argument, because you now write “You cannot use it as a put down.” That is not the same as saying it does not mean lame.
            There is a distinction between a word having a particular meaning and whether you should use it in that form. Just because it may be deemed by some that a word should not be used, does not mean it does not have that meaning. What you appear to be stating is “Gay can mean lame but you should not use it as a put down.”

          4. Julie Petkovska says:

            I am saying your blog and your readers know better to use such terms. This place is inclusive. If I need to spell it out I not use the word gay to put someone or something down

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I know what you are writing but you did not state that originally you wrote.
            “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.”
            and the you wrote
            “You cannot use it as a put down.”
            They are not the same thing. Do you see the distinction?
            If you started by stating “you should not use gay to mean lame” you are entitled to do so, but to state that “gay does not mean lame. It never has” is incorrect.

          6. Julie Petkovska says:

            Maybe in Utah it means lame. But gay does not mean lame in 2021

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Not just in Utah, Julie, it is also used in that context in the great country of Australia

          8. Julie Petkovska says:

            I used Utah to show that using a particular word has negative connotations. Just like how K used the word gay.
            Most people think Utah is a hommophobic place.
            I know my country, we had to have a plebiscite for gay marriage. We have to educate our morons everyday to use the English language. Use the word lame as it means lame.

          9. Witch says:

            That is true but it did evolve that way because of homophobia.
            Homosexual is more of a medicalised term when being gay was seen as a mental illness that could be cured so the informal term “gay” was seen as being more accepting and friendly… then young people started using gay to mean something lame because being gay is supposely lame and wrong. So it was a bit of a backlash against gay rights.
            Now gay=lame is becoming less used along side more acceptance of LGBT among the youth and wider society in general, coincidence?

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Ironic that this advice on the proper use of terms/labels should come from a reader who apparently knows better but referred to others on the blog as “garbage people”.

          11. Julie Petkovska says:

            It is not advice. Using the term gay to describe lame is derogatory. I don’t care how one spins it. It merely shows a poor reflection of the person using it. There are plenty of words in the English language to use instead..
            Lame is lame. Like this interaction.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            As explained, you are entitled to form that view of the use of gay to describe something as lame, but I repeat, you did not start out from this position. You stated that gay does not mean lame and it is clearly used by many people in that way and that is the basis on which I corrected you. You then shifted your position from the MEANING of its use to the MORALITY of its use.

          13. Julie Petkovska says:

            Also when I said it never has, I meant it never has to educated understanding and inclusive individuals. It has meant many things to bigoted and homophobic people. Just in case anyone has anymore issues..
            So of you identify as the later, well maybe speak to your follow LGBTQIA friends and ask them. I have.
            Thanks for discussion..

          14. HG Tudor says:

            “It never has.”
            “It never has to educated understanding and inclusive individuals. It has meant many things to bigoted and homophobic people.”

            Two problems here.

            1. Those sentences are vastly different. Nobody could ever know you meant the latter from writing the former. To suggest that the second sentence was meant by the three words in the first sentence is without foundation and is disingenuous. If you meant the second sentence, you should have written it.
            2. To suggest that to understand the meaning of a word, means that you are also automatically assumed to agree with it and use that word is an unsustainable point. I understand what the word “nigger” means. Because I understand, b what it means, even though I do not use it (save in an example as I am doing now) by your logic, I am now a racist. I understand that “cracker” can mean (a) a thin,dry biscuit you can eat cheese on (b) a novelty device pulled at Christmas revealing a small gift, a joke and a riddle (c) a fine example of something (That’s a cracker of a car you’ve got there) or (d) a poor, white person in the underclass – again, by your logic, I am now prejudiced against the poor white underclass.

          15. Julie Petkovska says:

            We had lollies called redskin, it has now changed
            Our coon cheese has now changed as well.
            Many american products have changed.
            Words and language are changing and we as society can see when things just don’t work anymore. Maybe other parts of the world have not a caught up. When I call someone a bogan a poor white person its meant to be a put down. Its not a term of what they are classified as…the context of Ks sentence was a put down.
            When you call someone a Karen that has new meaning…

            What I am stating is language is evolving what was ok back in 2008 may now be deemed in appropriate. Just the way it is.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            We know language is evolving, because the word gay evolved from meaning gay care free to also meaning homosexual and also to meaning lame. Thank you for proving my point.

            What you have failed to do is recognise that your original comment “Gay does not mean lame. It never has.” Was on a clear and simple reading of that sentence, wrong. I am not addressing the derogatory part because that was not what I originally pointed out to you. I explained that gay is understood to also mean lame. I did not say whether using it in that way was right or wrong, I explained that it has an additional meaning.

          17. Julie Petkovska says:

            Gay does not mean lame, people used it, as they are ignorant and should be correct or made aware. Hence my interjection…They were and continue to be ignorant…If it is would you mind me sending that to an anti discrimination body and say hey, he believes there is no problem using the term, what do you think? and see what they say? Others do it, and I don’t care if it harms a group or incites some form of hate or makes someone feel less than I mean they are minority anyway right?

          18. Julie Petkovska says:

            Ignorance is never an can just google and see what or how the community feels. I did send links!
            Better education and conversation brings about change along with challenges.
            Also why doesn’t anyone use the positive im happy meaning anymore…maybe because the bigoted people took it and made it to be something negative.
            I also can give you a final chance buddy.
            The power isn’t all yours!!!

          19. WhoCares says:

            Oh my, thank-you HG and NarcAngel for this fabulous conversation.
            I am appreciating both the education and the comedic relief.

          20. Julie Petkovska says:

            I didn’t know the debate about the use of inclusive language and understanding we are mature educated adults that don’t need to use language that can alienate others was comedic???

          21. WhoCares says:

            I anticipated your inability to see the humour, Julie.

          22. Julie Petkovska says:

            I see humour.. intelligent humour.. low brow juvenile humour has never been my thing. Each to their own.

          23. WhoCares says:


            I enjoy both lowbrow and highbrow humour.

            Your insults have all the same flavour.

            This has been enjoyable.
            I know you might exclaim: “How could you possibly find this enjoyable?” Just attribute my enjoyment to the erosion of emotional empathy, the ability to think analytically…oh, and a bit showcasing thrown in as well.

            I forgot to thank-you, Julie, for your contribution to this dialogue – so, thank-you. It’s been a slice.

          24. Julie Petkovska says:

            Lowering your emotional empathy doesn’t make you sadist. Being analytical means you appreciate both sides, though doesn’t mean you give up your stance. You’re not as onto it as you might think. I dont insult people, I use evidence to support my arguments and then reclarify – not against the law. You said I blame shift. I didn’t do anything wrong to blame shift. I said what I said, I didn’t blame it on anyone else.

            I never said K do not ever say that and say that’s not what I meant. I said she was being derogatory by using said word and I meant it.

          25. Witch says:


            I don’t know if this is partly a lanaguage barrier or I’m being too generous with mentioning that but what you’re suggesting can be considered “advice” as you are instructing someone on what you think they should not say.

            You did say we are all garage people, with no friends, that you do not belong here with us and you also said that you don’t read most of our comments but you only come here to read HG’s responses.
            Yet, here we are

            You have giving us plenty of advice concerning what you consider to be our flaws. Now, that is up to you, but at least own the fact.

          26. Julie Petkovska says:

            Witch, I said one sentence. That gay does not mean lame. I was neither rude nor abusive to K.
            I was dissapointed at seeing something that as grown adults we should not be using. That is universal. That was it. We have members of the community on here and I thought it an odd thing to say.
            Everything else is others wanting to debate something that can’t be debated.
            People behaved like garbage people, simple as that.. There have been many a conversation since 2019 that has been heated and hasn’t included me. So to suggest its all me is incorrect.
            My debate was with HG no one else. Again I tend to keep my argument with 1 person.

          27. NarcAngel says:

            There are plenty of words in the English language to use to describe people you don’t agree with also, but you chose the derogatory “garbage people”, so your Social Justice Warrior stance here comes off as lame and contradictory. The only one spinning here is you.

          28. Julie Petkovska says:

            I did not raise the garbage people. You have. I was called worse but do you ever hear me bring it up. No I am an adult and move forward.
            The matter was dealt with and closed. However continuously bringing it up doesnt bode well with not being a garbage person and then there’s dark cupid. Not your finest moment NA

          29. WhoCares says:

            Excellent blameshifting, Julie.

          30. Julie Petkovska says:

            Except it wasn’t. Keep trying and failing whocares

          31. MP says:

            Julie P, I agree with you that gay should not be used as derogatory because it refers to a group of people (homosexuals). Just like citizens of other countries or any particular race should not be used as derogatory. I understand what HG is saying about the literal meaning of the words that you used and I also understand what you were trying to say when you wrote them. I also don’t see this as comedy and I usually laugh easily too. I just don’t see humor in conflicts.

            Referring to people that you are having a fight with as “garbage people” is offensive but it is not the same because you are just offending the people you are attacking whereas using another group of people such as gay to insult another group of people in my opinion is a different thing.

          32. HG Tudor says:

            Help me out here MP, you stated “I understand what HG is saying about the literal meaning of the words that (Julie) used”
            What other possible meaning exists for
            “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.” , and
            “You cannot use it as a put down.”
            There is only one meaning in those sentences, there is no metaphorical meaning.

          33. MP says:

            I understand HG. What I was trying to say is that I knew her intention behind those words which is to oppose “gay” being used as a derogatory word. I have seen and heard statements in that manner before. Not just to call out the use of “gay” as derogatory but also other words. What she was trying to say is that it is not appropriate or acceptable and her way of saying it is by saying it doesn’t mean such. I understand your point and I am learning to be more careful and accurate with my words when I express myself.

            And I just want to stress that I disagree with using a group of people as a derogatory word. Especially if the basis of such group is their race, citizenship or sexuality because those are things we cannot change about ourselves. And dismissing that point by saying that the person did something in the past is deflection or whataboutery. It doesn’t address the fact that it is indeed inappropriate to use “gay” as a derogatory term.

          34. HG Tudor says:

            How can you possibly deduce from this sentence “Gay does not mean lame. It never has” that this sentence ACTUALLY means “I oppose gay being used as a derogatory word.” You cannot.

          35. MP says:

            I want to clarify HG that my second paragraph was not pertaining to you but to the people that bring back the past to deflect that it is inappropriate to use “gay” as a derogatory term. Regardless of my political leanings and assumptions about me that people might have because of it, I never use a group of people as a derogatory word. They can look it up if they want but they will not find anything. It is something that I have always been against as I experienced being attacked by racial slurs as a child so it is deeply ingrained in me to never do.

          36. HG Tudor says:

            Your clarification is noted. Might you answer the question I asked you?

          37. MP says:

            Thank you HG.

            I will try to state my answer more clearly. Yes there is no metaphorical meaning so maybe using the word literal may not be accurate for me to do. What I was trying to say is that even though she said it never means that way, I knew or felt the intention behind those words was to say that it isn’t appropriate to say it that way. I don’t know but I didn’t look at the words that she wrote when I have read it. I automatically read between the lines of what she wrote. I have seen people express disapproval of the appropriateness of something by making a 100% negation of it by basically saying under no circumstances is it allowed to mean that way.

          38. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the clarification MP re the point concerning literal.

            Now, help me with this.

            ““Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.” There is only one meaning from reading that sentence. It is this ; the word gay does not mean lame and the word gay has never meant lame.

            You state
            “I knew or felt the intention behind those words was to say that it isn’t appropriate to say it that way. I don’t know but I didn’t look at the words that she wrote when I have read it. I automatically read between the lines of what she wrote.”
            (1) You knew the intention behind ““Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.” to ACTUALLY mean “You should not use gay in a derogatory manner” which is a completely different sentence at all. Astonishing. How did you manage to make such a leap?
            (2) You “felt” the intention behind “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has” to ACTUALLY “You should not use gay in a derogatory manner” which is a completely different sentence at all. Astonishing. How did you manage to make such a leap and based on feeling? You can feel a completely different meaning to a sentence which is obvious.
            (3) “I don’t know but I didn’t look at the words that she wrote when I have read it.” That is nonsense. You did not look at the words she wrote when I have read it, how can you read something and not look at the words? You have contradicted yourself.
            (4) “I automatically read between the lines of what she wrote.” So rather than see the plain and obvious meaning from a sentence you import something utterly different?

            I recommend you stop now. I know you want to defend Julie´s comment, but you have failed.

          39. MP says:

            I think that I have tried to explain what I meant as best as I could. It is indeed time to move on for me.

            I still believe that it isn’t appropriate to use gay as lame. People are doing it, it doesn’t make it right. Especially if the one using the word gay as a derogatory word is not part of that community or group.

            Julie has indeed used garbage people and she has not denied it. But why did she use it? Because K and NA had an exchange against lisk and in that exchange K was very abusive. I can take the time to find the things K said if someone will dare say that it isn’t true.

            It wasn’t Julie who used gay as a derogatory word. It wasn’t Julie who initiated an attack against any other commenter who joined in this thread to make fun of her or antagonize her. HG you have said that past is past and I have not brought up my own experience because I have been true to my promise to let it go.

          40. Julie Petkovska says:

            Hi MP,
            HG was being literally and factual in the overall context. Dont disagree there, however educated people know not to use language that can alienate a group of people.
            Some people need to take a good hard look at themselves. You have married empaths openly flirting and engaging in behaviour they accuse the narcissist of. You have talk about men wanking into socks, you have woman constantly bringing up their sex drive and very personal details about their anatomy. You have talk about all sorts of subjects and yet I make a comment and people lose their minds.
            Now that is comical!

          41. Asp Emp says:

            I have been reading the comments on this thread – now the words you initially stated that sparked off this whole (and unnecessary upset to other readers and making specific statements ie to NarcAngel) and then I am reading you saying “Some people need to take a good hard look at themselves. You have married empaths openly flirting and engaging in behaviour they accuse the narcissist of. You have talk about men wanking into socks, you have woman constantly bringing up their sex drive and very personal details about their anatomy. You have talk about all sorts of subjects and yet I make a comment and people lose their minds.
            Now that is comical!” – you have an opinion about other conversations BUT you are STILL deflecting from what you initially said.

            I was not going to comment at all until I saw your words and saying – in my opinion – utter BS about other conversations on this blog that has ABSOLUTELY FK ALL to do with what you said “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has”.

            HG works really hard for us empaths and he allows us to have conversations that give us all a ‘respite’ from the affects of narcissism.

            Maybe, you, personally have not been affected as much as some of the other individuals who respect HG for providing this blog for us to speak about whatever we feel the need to.

            However, when it comes to what some may view as derogatory comments / words about or to certain ‘social groups’ then people are going to respond – and react – quite rightfully.

            Your words “Some people need to take a good hard look at themselves” – right back at you.

          42. Julie Petkovska says:

            ASP EMP i understand what your saying. I dont deflect as I answer all questions. I alerted K to what she said what derogatory and it was HG and I discussing. I have no quarrel with you.

          43. Asp Emp says:

            Again. You have failed to APOLOGISE for upsetting others with unnecessary comments. I am picking a quarrel with you,. MADAM

          44. Julie Petkovska says:

            I have no desire too. Not interested.

          45. njfilly says:

            This thread is a perfect example of hypocrisy with comedic relief.

          46. SMH says:

            I am most impressed (and surprised) that HG linked to Taylor & Francis, The Australian Journal of Linguistics. Is he an academic? Or just Googling around?

          47. NarcAngel says:

            I wouldn’t have raised it either if it hadn’t been for your hypocrisy in instructing us on what is derogatory and how it reflects on the user etc, when you have engaged in that behaviour yourself. When you point fingers and demand things of people, it’s reasonable to expect they could be pointed back at you if only to identify it or examine it for any accountability, but you seem to think you can say what you like, contradict yourself and your previous behaviour, and that we should just accept that because it’s “in the past”. Convenient.

          48. Julie Petkovska says:

            No HG said it was the past, but again, you bring it up. I took responsibility for my accusation and HG knows this. I have never been a hypocrite. Unlike your 180 and fake apology on dark cupid.. that was hilarious 2 weeks of drama and your tail between your legs!
            Maybe a little less sex talk from you grandma and more intelligence please.

          49. BC30 says:

            Is this where I chime in as a christened “fag hag”? Clock my avis. 😘 😂😂😂

          50. fox says:

            WhoCares: Right? Just catching up on this thread, and it’s gold.

            And just to throw my two cents in I too read “Gay does not mean lame K. It never has.” to mean “No one in the history of the world has ever used the word ‘gay’ as a substitute for the word ‘lame'”, and that is definitely not the case, as HG has pointed out. He is right.

            Now, should it be used that way is of course a different point, and I agree it should not. I am flummoxed by why this discussion even needed to be any longer than “Oh, you’re right HG. I meant to say it SHOULDN’T be used that way.” And ended there.
            I’m grabbing my popcorn in case we’re still not done.

          51. HG Tudor says:


          52. Julie Petkovska says:

            I don’t say sorry to appease anybody. So he will never hear that. I understood his points but I won’t yield..

          53. HG Tudor says:

            It is not appeasement to admit you are wrong. I will give you a final chance.

            “Gay does not mean Lame. It never has.”

            1- Question : Do you agree that the clear and ordinary meaning of this sentence is the word gay does not mean lame. The word gay has never meant lame. Yes or no?

            “Gay does not mean Lame. It never has.”
            ““It never has to educated understanding and inclusive individuals. It has meant many things to bigoted and homophobic people.””

            2. Question : Do you agree that the clear and ordinary meaning of the first sentence would not reasonably be interpreted to mean the second sentence? Yes or no?

            “It never has.”
            “It never has to educated understanding and inclusive individuals. It has meant many things to bigoted and homophobic people.”

            3. Question : Do you agree that these sentences are completely different. Yes or no?

            “It never has.”
            “It never has to educated understanding and inclusive individuals. It has meant many things to bigoted and homophobic people.”

            1. Those sentences are vastly different. Nobody could ever know you meant the latter from writing the former. To suggest that the second sentence was meant by the three words in the first sentence is without foundation and is disingenuous. If you meant the second sentence, you should have written it.
            2. To suggest that to understand the meaning of a word, means that you are also automatically assumed to agree with it and use that word is an unsustainable point. I understand what the word “nigger” means. Because I understand, b what it means, even though I do not use it (save in an example as I am doing now) by your logic, I am now a racist. I understand that “cracker” can mean (a) a thin,dry biscuit you can eat cheese on (b) a novelty device pulled at Christmas revealing a small gift, a joke and a riddle (c) a fine example of something (That’s a cracker of a car you’ve got there) or (d) a poor, white person in the underclass – again, by your logic, I am now prejudiced against the poor white underclass.

            Question : Do you accept that your logic means that a person who understands a word automatically becomes a user/believer/applier of that word? Yes or no?

            Four questions. Yes or no to each. No avoidance.

          54. Julie Petkovska says:

            I understand clearly what you are saying and I as a human would never condone ignorance as an excuse. However it isn’t my problem to educate those “who didn’t know” it “could be offensive”. Its called have a diverse group of friends.
            1) no
            2) ignorance is no excuse do the work
            3) it never has meant non ignorant people. It has meant that to ignorant people.
            4) context to broad what K said was quite clear and derogatory meaning.
            I work in HR zero tolerance. You cannot be “misconstrued” it was used in an offensive way period..

            You can’t argue K was right…sorry
            Her use of the term was ignorant or deliberate only she can say

          55. HG Tudor says:

            Missed the point spectacularly. Again.

          56. Julie Petkovska says:

            No I just don’t play the give up your stance and yield with a narcissist. I can miss many points if I don’t give in, see, its about my own integrity as human. And you know I don’t seek validation from you..I own woman.

          57. Julie Petkovska says:

            Just so we are clear, as I stated in my earlier comment from Friday that it is derogatory in 2021. Here is some factual psychological studies, if my words are not suitable for your narrative. I understand the words meant other things, but I specifically mentioned 2021 and our century, the here and now as K had written them.

            Lalor and Rendle-Short (2007) find that while some young people refrain from using the term gay because of its negative connotations, others find it difficult not to use it among their peer groups due to its proliferation in conversations, even though they realize it is politically incorrect to use the term. Also of note is that when the participants of Lalor and Rendle-Short’s study were asked about their perceptions of whether the use of the term gay in this negative sense signals homophobia or general intolerance toward gays, some agreed yes it did, while others stated that it was simply an adjective to describe something “bad” or “lame” and had nothing to do with a “homosexual meaning” or connotation. However, even if the term is not used to intentionally harm lesbian, gay, or bisexual (LGB) students, it “may be experienced as antigay harassment and contribute to psychosocial stress” (Burn, Kadlec, & Rexer, 2005, 25).

            Let’s not contribute to further causing damage to people who may already feel shamed by down playing words. Oh it used to mean happy or used to mean lame. Everything once had a different name.

            My argument is over.

          58. Violetta says:


            Julie Petkovska says:
            November 23, 2019 at 19:35
            K, NA, the only behaviour I see are 2 ladies hell bent, on tearing another person down.

            You can be labelled an empath and still be a garbage person. All I have wittnessed is garbage people.

            Julie Petkovska says:
            November 24, 2019 at 20:04
            I could never be a part of something where women treated each other like that.
            … I could never be a part of something where women treated each other like that.

            Julie, you’ve treated Narcsite readers exactly like that on numerous occasions.

            K: Clearly, I have learned something about Narchivist skills from you.

          59. Violetta says:

            Sorry for repeated text. I keep getting this one-word bubble-square instead of highlighting that I can edit.

          60. Julie Petkovska says:

            Many of you were acting like garbage people. Innocent people were included in conversations that had nothing to do with them…

            But again. Its the im a sweet empath, bring the pop corn…please.
            Not really how it works!

          61. NarcAngel says:

            Julie Julie,

            Deflection at it’s finest.

            I saw no accountability on your part then or now, just as you saw no tail between my legs. You are angry and lashing out because you thought you were lauding your intelligence and superiority once again only to be schooled yourself.

            Your counters in an exchange are often heavy with deflection and show an inability to stick with the points advanced, and you continue to make matters worse by adding further insult as you go along, while taking no accountability yourself. You might look into that if you ever hope to exercise or demonstrate intelligence.

            Who is talking about sex? (an example of your deflecting and veering off course). Grandmas can’t talk about sex? How very ageist for one purporting to hold and preach high ideals such as the use of the word gay that started all this. Social Justice Warrior fail.

            That’s checkmate.

          62. Julie Petkovska says:

            HG always tells you’re preoccupied with sex on this blog, would you like evidence??? Heavy with deflection, I have mentioned dark cupid twice….cricket’s… someone doesn’t like talking about it, but you feel it’s ok bring up garbage person? I say it’s you deflecting.
            Many of his comments to you are veered to that. All the time…
            So now I’m ageist, cos I said grandma. Who can’t take criticism. To be married for 35 years and also the 6 years doesn’t take a genius to know, but you seem to dish out to the younger members here.
            Im not a social justice warrior actually. I am an ally and advocate for LGTBQIA rights and inclusion..
            I worked as a security guard protecting their right to feel normal even if their own bars and spaces, so no I don’t appreciate lame reference at all.

            You always need to control.

          63. Witch says:

            I knew someone was about to pull up receipts but I was expecting it to be K.
            I don’t know what I’m going to do the day K pulls receipts on me, I might I have to shave my hair off, change my name and leave the country 🤣🤣

          64. Julie Petkovska says:

            Ahh but she doesn’t pull up hers..never..funny that. Her lisk exchange was terrible and uncesssary and validated my garbage people response.

          65. MP says:

            Violetta, I was there when it happened. Julie said those things after K was badgering and repeatedly calling Lisk horrible names. K was very abusive to lisk hence Julie’s comment.

          66. njfilly says:

            It’s very difficult keeping up with all the comments on this comedic and hypocritical thread, (possibly I’m drunk or high – again) so I have two questions for anybody who wishes to answer:

            1) Were any gay people on this blog actually offended by the use of the word gay to mean lame?

            2) Were any animals harmed during the making of this thread?

          67. Julie Petkovska says:

            Does it matter if someone is offended. Don’t use a word that is used by the gay community and use it as a put down. Dont care 10 years ago it was all the rage. It isn’t now. They don’t encourage it in schools, in social settings or work places. If they do that’s not good.

            We know using the N word is wrong and evokes strong negative connotations.

            Be smart..many words in the English language to describe humans.

            No animals were hurt. I understand there are people behind these avatars and they need to understand I use my real name and that doesn’t make them any less accountable as they hide behind avatars thinking no one really knows who I am.

          68. njfilly says:

            This is a blog about narcissistic abuse. Many, if not all, of the commenters here have experienced abuse and may be hiding from their abuser. That, as well as many other reasons, are why some people choose not to use their real names online.

            I now use one of the many non-inclusive, derogatory, and insulting terms you have thrown about, and direct it toward you – moron.

            It would drain my energy more than I am willing to sacrifice to further point out your hypocrisy and lameness on this thread.

          69. NarcAngel says:

            The past was not used to deflect. It was raised to draw attention to the contradictory nature of Julie’s comment here today. She was telling us not to use words she believes to be derogatory when she has done so (and continues to do) herself. A stance of do what I say but not as I do. It was evidence to the conversation that she has jeopardized the effectiveness of her stance today by her contradiction in the past.

          70. MP says:

            Julie, at this day and age where when someone says something that is not politically correct there is a public outcry for that person to apologize. Some in this thread think you should have apologized for being wrong and yet nobody has any expectation for K to apologize for using gay as a derogatory word. I find that fascinating.

          71. HG Tudor says:

            Actually MP this is an example of being hoisted by your own petard. The moral question of whether saying something is gay (I.e. lame) became lost as a consequence of unmerited intransigence. If, as Fox , essentially pointed out, Julie has written “You’re right, what I wrote was wrong, I should have written xyz’ then that issue would have been disposed of very quickly. The failure to do so and the insistence on adhering to an untenable position resulted in the second issue falling by the wayside.

          72. MP says:

            I understand HG but for me the moral question isn’t lost.

          73. Violetta says:

            Nj filly:

            “2) Were any animals harmed during the making of this thread?”

            I bit the head off a bat while listening to “Iron Man.”

            Showing my age, now!

          74. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            During my many evolving years, I have known the word ‘gay’ to be depicted as happy and lame (we even had a Gaytime ice cream released in 1959, now it’s called Golden Gaytime)
            Words and phrases we were once brought up with are now considered offensive
            Growing up in Australia, we’d take the ‘Mickey’ out of everyone and everything We’ve always been larrikins and possessed this sense of humour, we didn’t mean any harm and we all laughed at one another in the spirit it was meant to be taken, generally no one was offended
            We live in a different era now
            Us ‘older generation’ has had to adapt, but we will always hold dear to our hearts the simplicity in which we once lived
            Kindness to each other, no matter who are, will always win the day
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          75. Julie Petkovska says:

            Bubbles, you speak of anglo Australians however Europeans and Asians and aboriginal people never shared that “larrikin” view, we were chastised for eating the wrong food, speaking foreign, being indigenous and being smelly due to cooking with garlic. Being inclusive and open is making sure we use language that doesn’t hold anti whatever it may be

          76. Witch says:


            I just want to say that Julie did not refer to us all as garbage people because K called Lisk an idiot, if that were the case, she would have only addressed K as the garage person and not all of us.
            Julie called us all garage people because we continued to disagree with her and her assertion that Loreli is a narc. It was not out of defending Lisk.
            Several commenters did attempt to reason with Julie respectfully and find common ground and smooth things over, however Julie continued to remain defensive because she felt we were just trying to manipulate her (at least she insinuated it.)

          77. MP says:

            NA, you don’t have to agree with me but it is deflection, whether it was intended or not. The issue is not whether Julie is a perfect person or not, the issue is that we really shouldn’t be using gay as a derogatory word anymore because it does offend humans whether they speak up here or not. There are articles where gay people say that it is offensive when gay is used as derogatory. And yes, Julie was not accurate when she said that it has never meant lame.

            If being perfect or having a clean past is a requirement before any of us would call out something that we believe is inappropriate then none of us would be able to speak up against things that are not appropriate or kind or considerate. I am not the most PC person here at the blog and I don’t claim to be one but I think that we should refrain from using groups of people as a derogatory adjective. I probably wouldn’t call out K considering our past but since Julie has done it and now I feel that she is under attack and being made like a carnival exhibit because of the comedy and popcorn comments I decided to speak up too. I just think that here in this blog where people who survived narcissistic abuse which is not a joke in any way we should not treat anyone like they are on spotlight to be ridiculed or that they are just here for our own entertainment. I have come to know Julie as a person and she does have a tough personality, she’s not soft at all and she can be judgmental and prideful etc. but I don’t feel manipulated when I have conversations with her. I really don’t think that she is a narcissist. I also have an idea of what she has been through and that makes me understand her.

            I really think that we need to just move on and not bring up the Odd thread just like HG has asked of us before. I don’t think that it only applies to me because that would not be fair. In that thread, all of us are guilty of saying things that are very harsh because it has gotten so heated. Many things were said about me that was not true and hurtful too in that thread. Many things were said about Julie that was very hurtful and vicious too. So I don’t think that the Odd thread reflects who she is as a person and it’s the same for everybody who participated in the heated arguments in that thread.

            I will not be responding in this thread anymore regardless of whatever reaction or nonreaction I might get. I hope that we can focus on more important topics about narcissism.

          78. Whitney says:

            Hi Julie, when you keep missing HG’s point it sounds like you’re trolling, or are you that stupid?

            We are alive for a blink in an infinite time and we are all here alive together, right now, yet you try to shame NarcAngel for age. You are such a cunt. She’s more valuable than you because she’s way smarter. (I know you try your hardest).

            You can’t tell people what to say. It’s their mouth, not yours. Stop giving advice and sort yourself out.

          79. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Julie,
            Absolutely Anglo Australian, I totally agree with you
            My father was a refugee from Europe and no one could pronounce our name so he changed it so Aussies could say it and to ‘fit in’ (he was put in a refugee camp when he arrived here)
            We ate different food, I was called a ‘wog’, a new Australian and teased at school (even though I was born here) all because of my dad !
            I sat next to a beautiful aboriginal girl at school and always treated her as a friend
            I was brought up with closet homosexuals too petrified to ‘come out’ fearful of their lives (even our son has been beaten up)
            I’ve seen hatred and bullying first hand, nobody wanted immigrants arriving here in Australia and the so called “pommies” arriving here back then, copped heaps

            I do understand what you’re saying, hence we all need to be respectful to and of one another, no matter what you are or where you’re from, always
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. Violetta says:

          The bulletin board was mostly ignored in the hub-bub of the snowstorm and reduced staffing. One coworker with whom I have a reasonably good relationship asked me about my pictures, but I got no flack from GrinchLady. A few people didn’t even do theirs.

          This week, the Director explained that GrinchLady was moving to the next department starting next Monday; that it was nobody’s fault, but we just weren’t a good mix. The Director said GrinchLady had originally preferred that department anyway and reluctantly accepted the post in ours. I said that GrinchLady made a point of reassuring me that she had applied for reasons having nothing to do with me, and I appreciated her efforts to keep me from feeling she just didn’t want to work with me.

          Both of us managed to keep relatively straight faces.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            That’s great news Violetta!

            I’m really happy it worked out for you. You can actually enjoy going to work now!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, that is great news. ‘Problem’ solved 😉

          3. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            I think I’ve missed something in the story, was there actually openly a problem between grinch lady and you?
            Ok, and now she moved to another department?
            Job well done!

          4. WhoCares says:


            Glad you are no longer proximate to the LMRN.

            “Both of us managed to keep relatively straight faces.”

          5. Violetta says:

            Lost my job anyway after only a week of Ice Queen replacing GrinchLady. They got me on a policy violation after my co-workers had unloaded the most exhausting tasks on me and tired me out sufficiently so I eventually screwed up seriously enough to get me the boot. Had I lasted slightly longer, the dynamics might have changed with Ice Queen now in the unit, and I might have suggested a rotation schedule so it’s not the same person doing the grunt work again and again, or a daily flurry of ploys to avoid it (“I can’t do X because I’m already doing Y”), but I’m struck by the fact that management never thought up a rotation schedule. Isn’t that part of why they are there?

            I am concerned about money as I search, but not entirely personally devastated.
            If you haven’t been paying a lot of attention to HG’s narc-on-narc analyses, go back and review, because it gave me a perspective on how I could be a pawn and the recipient of collateral damage in an ongoing conflict that had nothing to do with me. (Wish I’d known about this in grad school!)

            I realized their brochures lied to both clients and new employees about what really goes on there. There are a number of things that last just long enough for a photograph or some footage to document their wonderful mission, but then people go right back to gossiping about their friends, boyfriends, or whoever isn’t in the room at the moment.
            Whether the coworkers in question had anything personal against me, were still viewing me through GrinchLady’s negative lens, or just resentful that my degrees got me slightly better pay and made me eligible for promotions for which they were not (and I compounded the insult by not desiring such a promotion), I suspect I was just the whipping boy since they couldn’t do anything about the director’s promotion and salary policies.

            The way they all talked about each other (and almost certainly about me, when I wasn’t there), suggests a nest of narcs, or at least a number of unaware lieutenants. The fact that I thought up a rotation schedule, and management apparently never had despite their constant spouting of cuddly maxims on teamwork, makes me suspect the rot goes deep enough that nothing I could’ve done would have repaired the situation. Our zoom calls involved many platitudes but few practicalities. A look at online reviews by current and former employees told me my reaction is by no means unique. There is a lot of turnover, and unfortunately, the ones most likely to stay are the ones not qualified for anything better-paying or higher status.

            The fact that my former co-workers must do the grunt work, now that I’m not there to do it, didn’t stop them, because they’re not high-functioning enough to take that into account. Their next target will probably be the woman who complained about Ice Queen and thought GrinchLady was an improvement (they were still in the honeymoon phase, GL playing, “well at least she’s better than Vi“). Ice Queen thought she was a lazy shirker, and Shirkette thought I didn’t stand up for myself enough about assignments. You can be a slouch like her or a sucker like me, but you’ll lose either way, because too many of these people put feeling superior to someone above doing the job efficiently.

            Shirkette is one unit over, but that won’t stop them from targeting her. Or maybe they’ll go after Ice Queen, since she got the de facto leadership position they wouldn’t be considered for.

            I should probably stop worrying about what will happen there, since I’ll probably never know even if the relevant individuals do get their comeuppances, and I apologize for an answer the length of Balzac’s Human Comedy. I’m just marveling at the fact that it is upsetting, but I’m not beating myself over the head about always being The Weird One the way I’ve done for most of my life. I finally understood what I was seeing and experiencing. Our mid-range director was playing lower-level mid-range and Lesser Narcissists against each other and allowing them to do her dirty work for her, while she seemed sympathetic to all (and conveniently forgot her prior supportive remarks when confronted by both parties at once).

            I don’t know if I can find a narc-free workplace, but if I can work for a Greater I’ll be satisfied.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, gawd, after all that – sorry to hear your update.

            You made me laugh “Shirkette”.

            I think anyone would be seriously hard-pressed to find a “narc-free” workplace. Unless it’s a sole trader type of business (as in UK). I found HG’s ‘Assistance Package – How To Deal With A Narcissist At Work’ very useful. Joining a Trade Union may help too.

            Yup, the instinctives of the lower echelon narcissists ‘sense’ a “threat” when some smart-ass comes along into their business when in fact there is not threat at all! I have come across this time and time again, it’s become bloody boring. I am arsed if I am going to permit my brain to disintegrate with boredom cos of a bunch of narcissists who are not as clever as me 😉

            I hope you find another place sooner than later. Best of luck 🙂

          7. lisk says:

            Looks like they knew that you knew too much and that they were trying to push you out so they wouldn’t have to give you the boot.

            Sometimes the smartest thing to do is to stay silent about your smarts and about what you know and see—until the time is right.

            Also, people can sense when someone disdains them or looks down upon them. It sounds like there was plenty to look down upon there.

            I hope you can collect unemployment. I did that once—the only time I was fired (so far!). I didn’t think I was eligible. My friend told me to apply anyway. My firing boss fought it hard. I got nice unemployment checks!

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That’s so incredibly frustrating. I really feel for you there. There’s only so much someone can take on before they drop the ball somewhere along the line.

            That whole staff room ‘tell us about yourself on our notice board’ happy clappy stuff is a warning sign in my view. It’s a warning sign because it’s so fake.

            If you want to know about me, my hobbies, family and pets here’s an idea, why don’t you talk to me? If I like you, I’ll tell you. If I don’t, I’ll steer the conversation so you get to spend the whole time talking about yourself instead. Everyone’s a winner.

            Bringing personal photos and sticking them on a board doesn’t do it for me. My private life is private. Does this mean I can’t do my job? No. It doesn’t. Does it mean I’m miserable and don’t like people? No. It doesn’t. It means I’m choosy. I choose who gets to know me. Plastering myself over a notice board is fake, and tells you nothing. Just like a FB profile tells you a glamourised version of what life is really like. A montage of your ‘best bits’. People aren’t like that and it’s so non representative as to be a complete waste of time.

            Next interview ask them if they have a staff room board where you are required to post personal images. See what they say. If it’s yes, move down your list! We should put stuff like that on the red flag list for narcs in the work place!!

            Seriously though, I’m sorry things didn’t work out and you landed unlucky this time. Best off out of there, the place sounds like it would have driven you crazy and worked you into the ground at the same time. You’ll find the right role eventually, because you’re bright, funny and a worker. Just a matter of time. Xx

          9. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            Oh V, that is sad news, I’m sorry to hear that.

            That seemed a toxic environment anyway, you don’t want to spend your days in such a place and get wind up every day again and again and again, no job is worth that…

            I understand the financial situation urges you to find a job and suffer some consequences, but as you describe the situation as it was there, you had to leave anyway.

            Onwards and upwards, believe in yourself!


          10. WhoCares says:


            I am truly sorry that it didn’t work out for you.

            “I’m just marveling at the fact that it is upsetting, but I’m not beating myself over the head about always being The Weird One the way I’ve done for most of my life. I finally understood what I was seeing and experiencing”

            Isn’t it amazing how understanding the dynamics, and what was at work, takes the sting out the worst of it?
            It still sucks, but it makes sense.

            I am sure you’re on to better things V, take care!

          11. Violetta says:

            I want to thank the Tudorites for their support and advice, as the Angels who contributed to an NDC for of one co-worker, and of course HG for putting all these resources in one amazing place. The education you get here only begins with reading the articles. I’ve learned from your experiences with manipulative exes and co-workers. Watching how HG deals with genuine questions vs. addressing flyby narcs trying to hijack his website is an education in itself.

            I tried some good there even under those circumstances. Whether any positive contribution I made will be undone completely by the narcfest or have any lasting effects is beyond my control. To have played the game their way would require me to become somebody else. As HG has pointed out numerous times, this we neither can nor should do.

          12. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Violetta,
            I’m so saddened to hear of your job loss lovely one
            I hope you have some sort of support to lean on in the meantime and there’s always the government
            It may be an idea to see your doctor perhaps, just to confirm your tiredness/stress due to the work overload you had thrust upon you by your manipulative narcissistic bosses
            Mental work stress is a huge issue and can also be reported to HR
            It was obviously an extremely toxic environment for you and maybe it’s a “blessing in disguise” for you to move onto fresher fields
            You appear to be a very committed, diligent, intelligent and qualified female who will no doubt land on her feet in no time
            Heartfelt best wishes to you Violetta
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          13. Leigh says:

            Violetta, I’m sorry that happened to you. I work in HR and we don’t normally fire someone for one infraction. We usually give a warning. It almost sounds to me like someone was trying to get you fired. You are definitely better off away from them. It probably would have just gotten worse. I’m sending positive thoughts your way. I hope the perfect job falls on your lap ASAP!

          14. Violetta says:


            I did have a previous infraction–in October, when I was a 2 weeks and 2 days into the job, and still learning.

            So yeah, by this time, they were waiting for a pretext.

      2. Violetta says:

        OMG! Don’t tempt me….

        1. NarcAngel says:

          It’s horrible idea. What time? Haha.

      3. Violetta says:

        My vocal coach’s take:

        “You put up the programs, the crazier the better, and let her hate as she wills. Do you think she isn’t going to hate you if your photos are generic and harmless?”

        On the other hand, he cheerfully admits to being Loki.

      4. Witch says:

        Every married couple is different and not everyone has a problem with their partner flirting (so no, not necessarily doing what the narcissist does)

        I haven’t really noticed anyone else here being obsessed with sex, a part from me, but even so, what’s wrong with sex?

        1. WhoCares says:


          The sex bit, along with the other generalizations, is a form of broad brush insult designed to redirect people’s focus elsewhere, in effort to get them to examine the kernels of truth contained within the broad brush accusations. This then achieves getting people to start conversations and objections surrounding those new topics and therefore distracts from the original issue.

          1. Witch says:

            I agree it’s a diversion

            come to think of it, I understand how some people can have an aversion to speaking about sex or witnessing other people speaking about it as some people do experience shame and embarrassment around the topic.
            But yes most adults do talk about sex and want to know what other people have been up to. I have been asked by my partner’s friends how many people I’ve slept with it and I’ve been asked sex based questions by my partner’s female cousins as well… I would probably even speculate that women speak about sex with each other more than men do

          2. WhoCares says:


            “I understand how some people can have an aversion to speaking about sex or witnessing other people speaking about it as some people do experience shame and embarrassment around the topic.”

            Sorry – jumping in here. While this is a true statement, not everyone of those particular individuals feels the need to comment negatively about the conversations surrounding sex. Most would just avoid those discussions and move on to something else, just like with any topic that is not of particular interest to someone.
            And I don’t know what the big deal is anyway – the topic of sex features heavily in the narcissistic dynamic, so naturally it is going to come up in discussion and sometimes joking about it lends some levity to a serious and disturbing topic.
            On the subject, HG is probably the biggest offender of talking about sex on the blog – by virtue of it being covered extensively in book form, articles, logic bulletins etc.

        2. K says:

          I don’t have a problem with flirting and I think, for the most part, it is harmless and I haven’t noticed any sex obsession on the blog either and there’s nothing wrong with sex; it is a normal topic of discussion amongst most adults.

        3. K says:

          Your comment re: receipts cracked me up! Hahahaha….no worries; you won’t have to flee the country in disguise. I am making an effort to “curb my enthusiasm”. I would like narcsite to be a safe place for everyone.

    2. WhoCares says:

      I don’t know about the bulletin board – but I like your choice of name for her: GrinchLady.

      I am sorry you find yourself working with an LMRN, Violette.

      LMRNs suck. Just enough facade to stay under the radar of a lot people.

      1. WhoCares says:

        LMRNs also bring out my potty mouth.

        1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          LMRN are my worst nightmare! My boss (female) is one, ugh….and eeek! And yes, she brings out my potty mouth too, cannot resist. I start every workday with ‘the virtues of keeping your mouth shut’, I need a song of that AP, hahaha!

          Violetta, I agree with the others, don’t participate, never give info about yourself.

          1. Violetta says:

            I can’t get out of it entirely, but I could do the bland and generic routine.

          2. WhoCares says:


            That’s the thing, we can always get out of it – but then we fear looking like the odd one out and that gets targ

          3. WhoCares says:

            Pressed send to early!

            …gets targeted instead. And it’s a new job, so I understand. There’s no real winning.

            By the way, I think I used ‘Violette’ in an earlier comment, my apologies.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Oh Z!

            I am sorry you have an LMRN in your life too.

            “I start every workday with ‘the virtues of keeping your mouth shut’, I need a song of that AP, hahaha!”

            I have learned that keeping my mouth shut causes my LMRN to open his mouth more – to his own detriment on most occasions. ☺️

          5. A Victor says:

            Z, same. Every day. Except the days I don’t see her.

          6. Violetta says:

            No need to apologize. I like violets. I generally use Violet with a lot of Italian in it, but I have no objection to Violet with a lot of French in it. I love Violettes de Toulouse. I also loved Devon Violets, but they stopped making it 😥

        2. A Victor says:

          My mother is an LMRN, victim. I agree, Who Cares, the worst I’ve experienced so far.

          1. WhoCares says:

            A Victor,

            “the worst I’ve experienced so far”

            I am sorry to hear that and I commiserate. 💙

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Violetta,
      I was horrendously bullied in the workplace by two evil female team leaders once
      I always kept my personal life private from work
      I would keep it generic, perhaps pin up interests of a book, movie, gardening, food or sport
      They don’t need to know anything more, the more they know the more ammo they have against you
      Do your job, get paid, go home ….. you get paid to work not socialise
      I would go to social do’s and always be the first to leave and with boardroom room drinks, I allocated myself one drink for the hour, then go
      Having said that and ironically, my best three girlfriends, we all “worked” together, they rescued me from the bullying and then I in turn rescued them …. the four musketeers haha
      Don’t let boss lady intimidate you, an air of mystery about yourself always annoys the hell out of people
      Trust no one !
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Violetta says:


        There are a number of people besides me involved in the performing arts there, so I ended up including a few ensemble stills–nothing where I am featured. I put one reenactment shot at a dinner revel, where our garb is mostly behind the table, and another with an ex-boyfriend where the break-up was on fairly friendly terms and I was never in love, but I’m grateful to him for helping me heal after Wanna-be Playuh-Narc. The garb isn’t particularly showy (outdoor events with a measure of grunge). The rest was things like my friend’s bridal shower, 2 pics with my honorary neicelet (at 4 months and at 4 years), and two old family photos. I said truthfully that many things were in storage after moving several times, and I didn’t know which box they were in.

        GrinchLady has been filling in at the next department and is trying to move there permanently, now that one staffer is moving out of state. We still share some workspace, but the real sufferer is a woman who already didn’t get on with one of her co-workers and is appalled at having the Ice Queen and GrinchLady in the same room. I advised her to keep a low profile and watch what happens when those two egos clash, because they will.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Violetta,
          Performing arts, now there’s a very exciting n competitive industry (Mr Bubbles was a performing artist) right ol thespian his was 🤣

          It sounds as if you are keeping your cards closely guarded … good onya
          Your co worker is wise to keep a low profile, however, we are all fully aware narcs provoke and push our buttons continuously
          I know things have changed in the workplace and feeling safe if one of them and the reason we have HR people on hand
          Isn’t it sad when narcs make the workplace unbearable and quite often it’s the good workers that end up leaving because of them and they remain behind causing more havoc and huge turnovers of staff
          I’ll put my money on Ice Queen, I’d say she rules over GrinchLady ….. just better watch out for those ice shards when they come flying 😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  6. A Victor says:

    I have a really good friend who is the world’s biggest micro-manager and who uses all kinds of manipulations to get people to do what she wants. I think she has empathy though, now I’ll be watching to be sure. This article brought her to my mind though, sad, I hope she’s not a narcissist but it would explain some things.

    1. Another Cat says:

      We have someone at the choir like that. Careful empathic but oh so nervously micromanaging everybody around her. She lives with a narc guy.

      Empathic micromanagers often speak very fast, IME. I’ve never had the heart to call any of them (empathic micros) 2out, even if they make my nervous.

      1. Another Cat says:




      2. A Victor says:

        AC, my friend is not nervous but quite bold. She gets extremely stressed out when she can’t keep her finger on every little detail though, I’ve seen her completely melt down. I don’t think her husband is a narcissist but I don’t live with him and often we can’t tell then so maybe he is. I know her upbringing was very difficult, true LOC environment, so there are likely some issues one way or another. I plan to discuss what I’ve learned here with her next time we talk, in person so I can see reactions. She will be fascinated and wish to learn as much as possible, I believe. She does speak very fast, I find that a very interesting observation, is she actually nervous? She totally makes me nervous and stresses me out, to the point of tears, when she’s stressed. If all is casual, we’re fine. Thank you for your input, helpful.

        1. Another Cat says:

          Sorry to hear that she does that to you, AV.

          1. A Victor says:

            AC, thanks. I don’t see her often anymore.

        2. Leigh says:

          AV, one thing I’ve learned is that because we are emparhs we naturally attract narcissists. Just keep your antenna up and proceed with caution.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, just saw your comment, thank you, I will!

  7. BC30 says:

    My colleague is spying on her employees.

    This morning she texted me and my boss a screen shot–of her employees’ chats. She is spying on them. They didn’t say anything terribly bad IMO. I haven’t responded to her. My boss was aghast.

    I don’t know what to say.

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      My former boss used to spy on his employees too. He even secretly installed a spy software on all this employees computers! What a sick asshole!

    2. Leigh says:

      Are these messages on company equipment and/or the company internet or email? If so, technically she can look. I work in HR and I have all employees sign a computer and internet use policy that includes a no right to privacy when using company equipment or internet.

      1. BC30 says:

        Yeah, technically she can look, but she is an UMR and there’s a lot more going on there. My boss upset her so we’re currently painted Black, so I haven’t heard from her since before Christmas.

    3. Witch says:

      Ask her if spying on people is paying her bills

      1. BC30 says:

        She owns the company but there’s is a lot more going on outside the company, involving White Supremacists, and more.

        I am spectating.

  8. Asp Emp says:

    HG’s ‘How to Handle a Narcissist at Work’ – Excellent, absolutely excellent Assistance Package – a must obtain if you have recognised narcissists at work. Do not quit your job until you have obtained and empowered yourself with this absolute god-send information. you can still quit your job afterwards – maybe you won’t have to.

    As for those who are volunteering for a charitable organisation with narcissists as ‘top bosses’ – get out as if they treat you badly, they will be treating other volunteers AND paid staff the same way. That organisation that the ‘top bosses’ being narcissists could actually be falsifying accounts, reports to funders and so on. Even one organisation that I volunteered for, gets Government funding under false pretences – the Board themselves do NOT know the full ‘truth’. I do. Do your research into a charitable organisation if you are considering volunteering.

    Having said above about charitable organisations and funding – I must, must reiterate, that I have no doubt at all that KTN is run by a genuine person. One person. HG Tudor as we know him as. Who gave so much time for, in reality, so little in return, yet it will be a ‘Legacy’ like no other that exists today. How many people have benefited from this? How many people will benefit from KTN in the future? How will science (and the medical world) will benefit – because they do not have to do the work – it’s all here. I think it will ‘re-write’ the history of science / medical ‘worlds’ as they (and us, on the blog) know it today. One day, Knowing The Narcissist will change everything. Law. Politics. Science. Everything.

  9. lickemtomorrow says:

    What they do is make you anxious and have you second guessing yourself. It’s the worst. I hate it.

    Nothing saps a person’s confidence faster than a micro manager. I love to have free reign.

  10. Empath007 says:

    I love this article. No one understands what micro managing actually is and this explains it perfectly.

    I was having a thought today. About narcissim as a personality disorder. With other disorders, such as bi polar disorder, there is often medication prescribed to help with symptoms. Although the bi polar individual may not want to take the medication as they are comfortable and accustomed with their condition.

    People with narcissim are often in charge of very important decisions. The vast majority of Politician’s I would imagine are narcissits. And yet, we learn here that they are constantly in a state of knee jerk responses (for the majority of narcissists) it is a instinctive reaction… and yet these are the people deciding the fate of their countries. This is problematic to me, that a disorder is making the major decisions here. If I am to separate the narcissist from their narcissim…then it troubles me they are leading countries. The same way I would not want a bi polar doctor in a maniac episode operating a surgery on me.

    it’s not because I believe these disorders are “bad” but that narcissists are going untreated because the narcissim won’t allow the treatment. When really it should be treated as any other disorder would. Because the disorder brings chaos to everyone around them … and at times… I would imagine for the lesser of the brethen, to themselves as well.

    Obviously there is no solution here. But it is really a shame there is no treatment offered and even if it was… it would not be taken. It does make me realize I have to stop taking narcissists so seriously. Recognize they are a product of a misunderstood, misdiagnosed disorder and are making their way in the world like everyone else.

  11. leelasfuelstinks says:


    People quit after one year at his company. Nobody could bear him more than maximum two years. Uses warning-letters to assert control, writes them even to employees who are doing great jobs. Tons of nonsens meeting, wasting of time just to assert control over his empolyees. Totally paranoid, doesn´t trust anymone. Lashes out on employees when they dare to discuss something, ask questions or – how dare they! – disagree with him. Loves to fire employees just right before holidays or Christmas or sends warning-letters just before an employee goes on holiday, purposely destroys they holidays by sacking them just right before or sending them warning-letters!!!

    No thanks, quit this job after one year working with this asshole.

  12. Truthseeker6157 says:

    This would drive me insane. It does drive me insane. I can’t stand people sitting on my shoulder while I do something.

    I’ve had it a lot. I just point blank refuse. Say nothing. Walk out. Go back to it when they have gone.

    My ex did it when I was driving too. I either automatically let him drive, or, if he commented, I’d pull over and give him the death stare. “Would you like to drive? Or am I driving? Good.

    Few things get on my nerves more than a sniper. Either do it, or don’t do it, either way I don’t care, but don’t snipe.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      TS, your comment had me laughing – that it would drive you insane and about the driving. Reminded me of them bosses at work and MRN making comments when I was driving – I have never crashed or damaged any of my cars in my driving history, and his car looked as if he used it for rally driving tracks too!! He wasn’t criticising (not much) but I was driving my car.

      There is a difference when someone is watching you compared to staring at you – especially when you are doing a task that may be new for you to do – but them narcissists at work – I did tell my Line Manager at work that I didn’t like it.

      Having said that, the Lesser was worse, he hated the fact that I did some tasks in shorter time period with less effort compared to his ‘version’. He’d stand there glaring and / or shouting – even in front of other workers. They’d be embarrassed for me and ask if I was ok (behind his back). Even then, his bosses were the ones that ’empowered’ me and Lesser hated that. I ended up working for the bosses instead and was approached by the Board at one point – some people do recognise skills and I should have said ‘yes’ to the Board Member…… goes to show that a narcissist can have that much ‘influence’ to the point where you make the wrong choices for yourself.

      I know that would not happen again because the ’empowerment’ is there.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Ha ha Asp,

        I have never had an accident involving another vehicle but I do experience problems with stationery objects. I’ve spun a car as well and not in snow! I expertly avoided the other cars and stopped with the rear bumper less than a cm from a lamp post on the dual carriageway. Stupid place to put a lamp post anyway. My ex wasn’t in the car at the time but he would probably have cried like a baby and completely missed the exhilaration of the experience.

        Lesser boss sounds like a real pain. They just don’t get the idea of gaining recognition through training / supporting success. You spend so much time in work. A work narc has to have almost as much impact as a relationship narc. Having both doesn’t bear thinking about. I’ve been lucky with bosses to be fair. Mine were sponsors for the most part. I was sacked once for ‘ insubordination’. I took him down with me though so that was nice. No idea if that one was a narc. Probably.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, laughing at your first paragraph….. ‘stupid place to put a lamp post’…… totally get it about the guy crying like a baby & missing the ‘exhilaration of the experience’ – laughing…… the past MRN would have been squawking like a pack of chickens….

          Lesser was an ar**hole. Eventually his son-in-law ‘finished’ everyone off – started with me because I was the strong one of the lot and he still owes me £3.5k little fat shit. He stole £46k worth of company assets, flogged it all – probably bought his house with the funds…… stupid Lesser didn’t have my back, hence leading to everything going to shit – within 6 months of my being “illegally removed as a director & falsely accused of theft” (I didn’t have the funds to take the fat little shit to court – I tried)….. yeah, Lesser was a stupid ba**ard.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Cheaper to have him bumped off.

            I seem to be experiencing a mild erosion to my empathy! Ha ha

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, – I’d bumped into one of Lesser’s bosses by chance – had coffee at my house – she said to me “You need a nice man to look after you” and “Karma will get to (Lesser), God is watching” (the very words she used)……

            It happens, TS, ‘mild erosion of empathy’. I get that too – maybe it reduces over time, maybe it doesn’t. It gets ‘triggered’ by small things that actually do not really matter……

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Just realised, I put the wrong stationery! Hahaha I don’t have problems with paper cuts. STATIONARY! I have problems with stationary objects.

          I reversed into the same bollard twice on my way home from work on two consecutive weeks. I ignored the rear parking sensors and backed into a stone wall outside my house thinking I was, ‘Just in the bushes’. My best was leaving the rear passenger door open and reversing out of a car port and pretty much ripping the door off as I drove past a pillar.

          I took the car in to be fixed. The guys in the repair centre were impressed, I could tell.

    2. Violetta says:

      Got one in my new job. Urgh.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        First things first Violetta, he / she needs a nickname!

        Do you have the ‘How to Handle A Narcissist At Work’ bulletin? Might as well saddle up, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride!

        Great that you spotted him / her early doors though.

        1. Violetta D says:

          I do, though I haven’t listened to all of it yet, plus some Angels helped me get an NDC. I referred to the individual as “Grinchlady,” although she was nicer today, possibly because her vacation starts soon, or possibly I was out sick just long enough for her to find someone else to be The Problem for the time being. I heard them talking about another newbie in unit 2, so she may be the designated Problem this week. Poor woman.

        2. Violetta says:

          Shee hichte “GrinchLady.”

          And if it weren’t for HG’s work, I’d be saying, “Oh, @#$&, not AGAIN,” without knowing what I was dealing with, why I seem to attract them like flypaper, or how the same techniques to deflect their shit don’t work equally with all of them. Just learning there were different types, therefore different M.O.s, was quite a revelation. I’ve seen some vent their spleen on the few hapless souls who show them any respect after caving to from the ones who openly flout them. Then there are the ones who will accept army-style obedience, but if you debate anything with them, however reasonably, you’re dead. There is no one-size-fits-all.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            When I look back at the time when I was spending more time in the office environment, I always had a sponsor. The sponsor would be more senior than my direct line manager. So, in effect, I was likely flying under the wing of a more senior narc, which made it difficult for the junior narc to cause me too many problems.

            I took on a lot of projects which meant my direct line manager was out of those meetings. This wasn’t intentional on my part other than my manipulating myself into positions of greater exposure for career progression. Given I now have identified almost all my sponsors as narcs, I think I inadvertently got the best out of it.

            It depends on the industry you are in and the time you are in it. Mine was a hedonistic one. If you were travelling, you could wind up travelling with any number of people at varying levels of seniority. If you were of a mind to, it was reasonably straight forward to put sponsors in place. Knowing what I know now, I can understand in some ways I had additional advantages being an empath in a male dominated and narcissistic organisation.

            There are opportunities I think. I didn’t out manipulate my line manager, I just sidestepped him and allowed the sponsor to do it for me. All to say, sometimes there are ways to turn a situation to advantage. I am far more manipulative in a work environment than in private though. Food for thought.

          2. Violetta says:

            Finally got a chance to sit down and listen to the NDC, which HG got back to me remarkably quickly. She is one alright: lower mid-range, just barely making it to mid-range with many lesser characteristics. Hearing HG detail the pattern in the incidents I had (randomly, I thought) listed was astonishing: I was too dazed even to try to arrange them in chronological order and just typed them up as they occurred to me. Once you see the pattern, however, you can’t unsee it: it’s like one of those trick images.

            Several bits of good news:
            1) she’s on vacation all this next week;

            2) I was out for a while with a throat bug (which turned out not to be Covid, but you have to get official clearance to return), and for some of those days, the woman who trained me before GL came back from a break stepped in for me. This woman is a young theatre major who had to come back to town when her program shut from Covid, and given my years doing theatre in NYC, we hit it off pretty well. She wrote me a Christmas card mentioning how welcome my sense of humor is, adding, “You need one in this job!” I didn’t get a chance to talk to her before Christmas, but I can guess that in my absence, GL probably gave her a hard time as well as barking orders at the newbie in the next unit (we share some spaces). I would love to hear my friend’s take on working with GL.

            3) HG noted her lack of effective facade or even awareness that she needs one. Thanks to that, the management are aware of many of her machinations, although staying in our pandemic “bubbles” has reduced their ability to interact with us. We recently got a communication detailing a number of things they want us to fix. At least one involved using our tablets for anything not work-related, emphasizing that management can track our history. I have occasionally gone on youtube to find classical music, etc. and asked the director if that was a problem, and she said she would check with corporate. However, GL has worked on word games or gone shopping for crocs, and it wouldn’t be difficult to figure out who was using the tablet, given when some of us were on break or working a different shift. When I asked her about using YT for music, she said, “Oh, that’s just because it drains the battery, and you have to plug it in on that counter.” Um, no, I think they want to be sure we’re paying attention, and she doesn’t perceive that.

            In addition, when I was the last person in our unit, the director said she needed to do some work on our tablet. She was on there a good 7 minutes. I’m willing to bet that along with my searches for “Messiah” and “Nutcracker,” she saw the shopping and crap GL had done when I was on lunch.

            4) I have learned some rudimentary manipulations.

            a. Instead of tattling outright on her, I ask management how I should deal with X or Y. The director has said more than one thing to indicate she does not hold with GL’s philosophy on several points.

            b. Before GL could rip me a new one about how long I took to do something, I asked her for some hints on doing it more efficiently. I later mentioned to the director and the assistant director that I would be streamlining the process, and said, “I think GL liked that I consulted her.”
            Assistant director: ”Yes, she does like that.”
            Director: ”I’ll bet she did!”

            So I’m not completely alone in a gaslighting world where no one believes me.

            Despite being on Narcsite for over a year now, it has still been upsetting to deal with such a person, but years ago, I would have been devastated and paralyzed. It wouldn’t help even being vindicated after the fact; when I left one non-academic job to return to grad school, I learned the woman who complained I wasn’t doing anything retired a month or so later, overwhelmed by all the work I wasn’t there to do anymore. They can still do a lot of damage. I’m in touch with a friend from a job I had years ago, and she’s still angry at one ignorant but incredibly patronizing manager. In retrospect, I’m certain the manager was a narcissist, and not a high-functioning one either. I saw her deny reality to an extent that made me wonder if she was actually insane, but it’s all clear now: the narcissism will not allow them to perceive anything that threatens their version of reality. They don’t even worry about repeatedly inconveniencing upper management, to the point that they put their own careers in jeopardy.

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