Why Does The Narcissist Seem So Odd?



It is accurate to state that we operate in three essential states. There are varying degrees within those states, differing levels of intensity which are affected by factors such as the type of narcissist that we are, what we require from you, the level of empathic individual you are as well as several others.

Nevertheless, there are three basic states.

The first, as you would expect, is the golden setting. We are at our most wonderful, most brilliant and most loving when in this state. This always appears during our seduction of you and we will reinstate it from time to time and often when we hoover you in order to suck you back in and keep you hanging on to us.

The second is the dark setting when we instigate our devaluation of you. This dark setting allows us to deploy our various machinations against you, a variety of different  manipulations as the abuse begins and we make your life particularly unpleasant. This requires effort and energy on our part and whilst we will be rewarded with fuel, a certain degree of application is required to use these manipulations against you. When we unveil our dark setting it is upsetting and confusing but often you will find some reason to explain our behaviour.

It is usually the wrong reason but you will find one nevertheless as you like to understand and have a reason to explain why someone is behaving in a certain way towards you – you decide we are stressed, tired, hungover, in need of affection or perhaps you are unduly harsh on yourselves so that you, in that usual empathic manner, blame yourself for the behaviour we have meted out against you. Perhaps you did not listen when you ought to have done, perhaps you should have realised that we wanted to go out tonight, or that we would not want chicken for a second time this week.

There is a third setting and this often proves more confusing than our unpleasant dark setting. This setting might be regarded as a neutral setting, somewhere between the golden and the dark, but it is not. This setting is on the road to the dark setting and is closer to that than the golden. This particular setting is the stranger setting.

There will be times when we do not wish to apply considerable energy to our continued devaluation of you, but the devaluation must continue. It may not be as harsh, since there is no shouting, no violence, no insults and such like.

It is not the golden period because we show no affection, we do not do things for you and we do not exhibit any of the charm that once flowed so readily from us. During this stranger setting we are neither wonderful nor awful but we behave like someone who doesn’t really know you and you are certainly left feeling like you are dealing with somebody else.

If you telephone us we will not dole out a silent treatment and ignore your repeated calls. We will not answer in less than a ring and speak to you with affection and enthusiasm, instead we answer and engage in a monosyllabic conversation. It is like drawing teeth. We confirm that nothing is wrong and you may think there is but we have not responded angrily or harshly.

We have not accused you of anything, we have not labelled you in some way but the conversation is flat. It is as if our personality, whether golden or dark has vanished and left almost an automaton in its place. We function, we talk about our day but with little detail and certainly no enthusiasm. We ask questions of you but they are polite and perfunctory as if we are just going through the motions. There is no nastiness, no backbiting or sneering. It is difficult to process because it is not nothing, that cannot be the case because we are talking to you, but it feels like nothing.

We may call around to see you but it feels like an inspector has called around. We sit, we decline a drink that you offer us and we answer your questions without offering you anything much in return.

Where has the charmer gone? Where has the monster gone? Who is this stranger that looks like us, sounds like us but is not behaving like us? You cannot accuse us of being unpleasant but it feels unpleasant because you are dealing with someone you do not recognise. Any questions about what is wrong with us are politely answered and you are assured there is not a problem, but we seem lifeless. You flatter us, compliment us and whilst we accept them there is no spark of interest, there is no response.

Why are we like this? Why is this being done? Why do we seem like someone else? It is as if we have been abducted by aliens in the night and replaced with a robot which is neither wonderful nor savage but is frustratingly something else.

This third setting occurs during the devaluation period. It is not a respite from devaluation as that is the golden setting once more. It is clearly not the dark setting as that is the rolling out of nastiness and abuse. This third setting is an indicator of the calm before the storm.

Whilst there are occasions where we might switch from golden to dark setting in the blink of an eye, this third setting is used when we wish to conserve energy in readiness for unleashing a particular savage next stage in the devaluation as we will move to the dark setting and crank it up to eleven. You are not cruising along being driven by fair winds, nor are you being thrown up and down buffeted by a storm, instead you are becalmed or moved along by a weak breeze.

This is the time we are girding our loins, gathering information and plotting. The switch of functions to the organisation and scheming of what is to come, along with the intense outpouring of energy required to sustain the vicious intensifying of this devaluation means we adopt this near automatic state. You may not ever see this happen dependent on the nature of the narcissist you have become entangled with, but when you do, you should be aware that a storm is brewing and not just any old storm but a supercell storm of savage and damaging proportions.

This is a warning.

1,385 thoughts on “Why Does The Narcissist Seem So Odd?

  1. Dorion says:

    I’ve read through this monster (and by some apparently forbidden) thread before and had on mind to react to this particular post by Bibi. I will quote from it selectively, hope that is okay.

    “Yes, most definitely tests are not accurate, be it MBTI or Enneagram. I can’t tell you how many mistype on the Enneagram. But the key is to read it and see what resonates with you.

    I have mentioned before that I think the Enneagram is one of the deepest tests there is, albeit it is still theory but can be a great guide into your personality.

    I just learned there is an Emily Dickinson biopic. (…)

    Emily: Enneagram 5w4

    I believe HG is a 3 with balanced wings of 2 and 4. I see a lot of 3w4.

    Bibi: 4w5 with strong 3 wing.

    I have suspected NA to be an 8w9.

    Just sayin’. It’s fun, yo!”

    This is one of the weirdest things I’ve experienced. I am a pretty rational person and a scientist, but never averse to anything new, weird, even esoteric… just curious about anything that attempts to explain human nature, life, the Universe etc. This Enneagram test has been the single most useful exercise for me to understand myself and my constructive and maladaptive tendencies. I was trying to reject it for a while claiming that there is no solid foundation, but in reality there has never been anything explaining me, to me, better. It attempts to classify and explain lots of aspect of human personality and behavior at large that really appeals to me despite its lack of solid evidence – a relatively simple system but so useful to understand others and navigate the social realms. MBTI was also interesting but this is far deeper and more helpful when looking at dynamics, development and long-term strategies.

    As far as Bibi’s typing:
    I am 5w4, like Emily. Sx/Sp/So, if that means anything to anyone about the instinctual stack.
    I dug pretty deeply into this and feel reasonably confident about my intuitive assessment of others as well. Bibi’s typing of HG might be correct, but I could come up with a couple more alternatives as well. It is not always easy to categorize virtually, without direct experience.

  2. AnneB says:

    H.G. Just rereading this and it has cleared up something for me. I was not sure if the stranger mode was a separate stage that takes place between G.P. proper and the commencement of devaluation. I now see that it falls within the devaluation cycle and when an N does utilise it instinctively (for all but the greater) the breakdown of the devaluation cycle might be for eg devaluation – GP respite – stranger – devaluation – stranger – devaluation – GP respite – stranger – devaluation and repeat. I’d imagine the factors you mention at the start of the article such as type of N, type of emapth/victim and what the N requires at the time, predicate if stranger mode occurs, and if it does, how often.

    My question is: during a stranger period, would it be correct to say that there are no, even subtle instinctual manipulations being deployed? For e.g if the N initiates a respite, post deval session, and is responsive to the victim in a positive, ‘loving’ way, then a few days later is flat, then next time returns to responsive and ‘loving’ and then next time devalues either actively or via subtle demeaning, would the flat interaction coming before a subsequent ‘golden’ interaction actually be a devaluation? Would an N use ‘flatness’ as a form of deval, a way to create contrasts maybe, immediately prior to a ‘goldenish’ respite?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am pleased this article has assisted you AnneB. Your conclusion in your second paragraph is accurate.

  3. njfilly says:

    Dear Mr. HG Tudor,

    1) I love your direct, logical way of thinking
    2) You have incredible, unbelievable patience

  4. NarcAngel says:

    In the end, I guess only those new to the blog can answer as to which was more damaging:

    Noise pollution and banter about things seemingly unrelated to narcissism, or the possibility of being labelled and their comments inviting responses that result in a thread like this.

    Not looking for responses, this is just something we can all reflect on.

    1. Lorelei says:

      NA—can you be the narcissist this week?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        This week? I am a narcissist every week according to some, although it is not pointed out to me directly (hmm…). It’s been asserted that HG keeps some Mids around for his amusement, and bidding. I don’t think there’s any truth to it, but I’m sure I’m being superior in stating that because surely they know better than HG (which seems a bit superior in itself but I’m sure I’m mistaken…). I just accept their false perception of me and marvel at how emotional thinking can affect the thought process.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct HG, I don’t keep them around. They repeatedly come here. The only use they serve is to allow readers to observe and apply their learning. There are two in particular who repeatedly try and comment but they never make it past moderation. There’s a handful that continue to read, every so often they Hoover through email and comment. Very occasionally I will let a comment through so people can see how these types come back, most of the time I don’t allow them the air time, but they never disappear.

          1. Julie Petkovska says:

            Why can I not be on the blog for days and this thread continues…..

            Do I have to respond to all accusations, feedback or comment, no, does that mean I’m right, wrong, guilty, no, means I’m busy doing other things…
            Can other people have an opinion yes, more than welcome!
            Does it bother me, no
            Does it hurt me, no
            Will it change my mind, no

            Do I care what people think of me or about me, no

            Am I direct, yes. I have told someone I don’t like them yes.
            Do i deflect, i have already explained my self defence mechanism. I deflect possible threats of control.
            Am I hard to control you betcha, not because I say so, cos others tell me.

            Can you twist me into submission, no
            Unless it’s enjoyable…then yes.

            Not much more left to say really.

            Are we ready to move forward? Because final season of Vikings airs Dec 4 and that will require my full attention.

          2. WokeAF says:

            Nah it’s cool, Julie, ,go enjoy Vikings.
            You’ve given us plenty to work with.

        2. windstorm says:

          It’s not just emotional thinking. We humans have a tendency to stubbornly hold on to our ideas and ignore evidence to the contrary. I don’t consider that emotion thinking, but I’m sitting at lunch with Pretzel n he disagrees with me. He says it does fall under emotional. So maybe I should let That idea go…..

          1. Mercy says:

            Windstorm, could you remind me, Is pretzel a greater? Do you believe what he is saying is correct about it being emotional thinking? This comment is causing me to rethink some things.

          2. windstorm says:

            Yes he is a greater cerebral. We were at lunch and after I sent my comment he told me his reasoning. It made sense but was fairly convoluted. Basically what I took away from it was that all reasoning is either logical, emotional or a mix of the two. What we call stubborn or closed-minded actually has its roots in emotional thinking, and is often caused by different types of fear.

            He said he is much better attuned to spot emotional thinking than most people. I’d have to agree. He is spooky good at seeing into people’s real motives and agendas, especially if they are being devious or self-serving.

          3. Mercy says:

            Thank you windstorm. I thought I remembered he was a greater. After thinking on it further, I can see that stubborn could be emotional thinking. I have a daughter who’d rather chew her tongue off than admit she is wrong. I have told her sisters that I see her stubbornness as she’s ashamed to admit she caused a fight. So maybe pretzels description of fear and my description of shame is one in the same.

            PS I wanted to tell you I ordered a set of Mark Twain books for my grandson for Christmas. He’s probably a bit young for them but I think he will enjoy them in a few years. I know you love Mark Twain so I wanted to share.

          4. windstorm says:

            To me shame is just fear of other people’s negative opinions. I think we could probably break a lot of people’s negative behaviors down to some sort of fear. One of the points pretzel made was that people fail to recognize when the fears that are controlling their actions are irrational. That’s where emotional thinking comes in.

            He used as an example someone who is afraid to drive thru St Louis because they had a bad experience driving there (referring to me). As opposed to rational fears, like the fear of stepping into the street in front of an oncoming car.

            I do love Mark Twain! There’s an example of a very obnoxious narcissist, but he had a lot of insight into human nature and the ability to spin a great story. Two of the better traits of smart narcs!

          5. Mercy says:

            Windstorm, I remember you saying once that you enjoyed having intellectual conversation with him. I see now why. Most of us don’t experience that with a narcissist because we are dealing with mids and lessor’s. My mid was very intelligent but once the illusion was gone he saw no need to impress me with his intelligence. The conversations were no longer enjoyable.

          6. windstorm says:

            I think a lot of it is that he is a cerebral, too. He gets a lot of his fuel by pointing out insights and understanding to those of his inner circle that we didn’t pick up on ourselves. If you get your fuel by wowing people with your wit and understanding, then obviously you must continue to have intellectual conversations with your fuel sources.

            Notice how he did the little negative dig by incorporating my fear of driving in St Louis as his example of emotional fear. He didn’t reference me specifically and if anyone else had been listening they would never have known. That’s a common occurrence when talking to him. When I made the appropriate response (which was to smile and say nothing ), I could feel his rush of pleasure. He has a perverse enjoyment of hiding insults in conversations that only the insulted party will pick up on. He also loves to make observations and double entendres that only those of us close to him will understand.

            Life is just a big game to him that he never ceases to play. I’m sure he continues to play with me because I’m smart enough to acknowledge his intelligence, yet dumb enough to constantly be suitably impressed.

          7. Mercy says:

            I see how that would be frustrating. The little digs that no one else would pick up on. Those kind of mind games for a person that is unaware of what they are dealing with could drive them to question their own sanity.

            Thank you for clarifying

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Hahaha. Make like Frozen and Let It Go………
            Just kidding. I remember you love that movie and song.

            I was being kind in only listing emotional thinking. I think there are other issues at play as well.

            So you’re both right. Each can pay for their own lunch to settle that bet lol.

          9. windstorm says:

            Yep. Favorite movie, favorite song.
            He had a pretty convincing argument. And I had no intention of paying for lunch. So he “won” the honor of that too! Ha, ha!

        3. Desirée says:

          For someone to assert with any kind of confidence that you might be a narcissist is ludicrous. It goes to show some people need to read more and apply the new found knowledge. I wish we could all step away from the labelling and just point out narcissistic tendencies (sense of entitlement, lack of accountability etc.) in a detached manner when we see them. I certainly never saw you portray any of those and your straightforward manner is only for the best.

        4. Lorelei says:

          If we were narcissists we wouldn’t know it though! Yet, I feel pretty certain I know
          it since he told me I wasn’t? But now his empath test is in question! What a thread!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, it´s not.

          2. Lorelei says:

            Not by me—I’m going to go for frozen yogurt and the ocean salty breeze while you fix the cracks in the boat.

          3. Lorelei: Just because and individual questions something, such as a particular test, does not mean that your confidence nor my confidence nor anyone else`s confidence has to be automatically shaken. Especially when that someone has absolutely no experience with the test matter in question given at the level of HG Tudor, for example, and going as far as to say she or he does not agree with a certain test result without even ever seeing the test. So one does not even know what aspect of the test that person is even taking about. And neither does that person. For, example, Is it question number 7 or number 3? Or, have they not even seen nor taken the test, yet we are supposed to take their comment at face value, regarding said test? I have experiences and discussions with certain very intelligent people that create tests, even on a national level, as well as for powerful companines. And there are ways to implement traps and fail safes into tests to get around many people that try to control the results of a test. In fact, many test makers take those sort of individuals seriously, whether or not the person is deliberately trying to control the test result. And, we know that HG is a behavioral genius, your very own determination, with a very strong defense and survival mechanism, and he absolutely wants to know the truth about all matters great and small, including about himself, even when the truth is ugly or offensive and we have witnessed this about him, day after day and year after year, as well. So, if you take any test at all on this planet seriously and the results seriously, I suggest you put HG`s test in this category of an Excellent Test with Excellent Results. I do. And remember, he is State Of The Art in his field, so those that take his tests in particular, do not have the experience and knowledge regarding the subject matter, (much of which he has not even disclosed yet) to deceive him in this particular subject matter and dynamic, and arena of his proven expertise.

          4. Lorelei says:

            Thoughtful Princess. The important thing is that I know what happened in my life and that is where the truth rests. I also know what’s happening now and I’m absolutely exuberant over some of my ideas. Everything contrary to that is noise. It’s 60+ degrees and absolutely dreamy where I am. It’s a good day for many reasons.

          5. Mercy says:

            HG, for the purpose of learning, could the empath test being in question, be considered a form of manipulation in order to deflect from the original issue at hand?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Do you mean, somebody questioning the EDC could be a form of manipulation by deflecting?

          7. Mercy says:

            I’m better at explaining with examples. It’s only how I interpreted it and I’m wondering if my interpretation of deflection is correct.

            J accused L of being a narcissist

            L proved she was not a narcissist by revealing her ED test

            Other readers were upset that J refused to admit she was wrong

            One reader mentioned that the ED detector was questionable

            J then said yes, no test are perfect therefore L’s results are questionable.

            My interpretation was, IF j was a narcissist, using the excuse that the ED is questionable could be a way to deflect so that an admission of being wrong could be excused.

            Also keeping on mind that early in the conversation J said she would have no problems taking a ED test.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for clarifying.

            You are correct.

          9. Mercy says:

            Thank you

          10. Lorelei says:

            I’m not sure what you mean Mercy—I know you asked HG but the question seems thoughtful.

          11. Mercy says:

            Lorelei, see my explanation above.

          12. Lorelei: I admire your strength. I have said so, before. I admire the strength of many of the women on here. It is too much to ask for everyone to get along. And, it is not going to happen during this era. So, it is nothing to lose sleep about, in general. But, the strength is good to see, and it is good to see new people cutting their teeth and becoming stronger and stronger as well, and not running away. If I had one piece of advice to new people (which includes me, for myself as well, as I still have not hit the one year mark on here), it would be to try NOT to choose sides overly much on here among so strong a diverse group of many people, to really grow on here. And to try to learn from everyone, as much as possible. HG listens to ALL of us, and he is my role model, for me to do likewise. And, HG Tudor permits a lot of free speech on his site, which is not usual at all these days. So as we advance and speak out more, we may in fact say something that surprisingly (at times) to ourself, offends someone, or offends many, at any given time, and on any given day. This happens a lot when people are allowed to speak out more. Offenses happen. Something is always going to offend someone, and sometimes, even, you may say something or have a belief that actually offends the very person/s that you least thought would be offended. This happens on discussions about such a diversity of topics. That is why I would suggest, if we really want to make the best of the phenomenon of both this site and of HG Tudor`s brilliance, for us to be true to our own growth in particular and foremost, whether it be quick or slow or easy or difficult, to take on, and apply this remarkable information, personally. And to try NOT to be overly stuck on what some reader/s may think and then sadly become oddly stuck in our own personal growth, unnecessarily. And then, regrettably, to become worried about what you will say next on any given topic or article. Be and stay brave. Because, we each know more of the minute and secret details of the dynamic of our own life, whether we somewhat disclose much of it publicly, or not, like Lorelei is saying, including if we choose to disclose more of our dynamic privately within our personal consultations with HG Tudor. We have so many choices on here and a lot of freedom, so do not get yourself stuck: And, therein lies our true growth in applying all of HG Tudor`s amazing knowledge, found here on Narciste, and throughout his body of remarkable work, according to my observations and according to my take on it all.

          13. Lorelei says:

            Thanks Princess—my entire life is in flux. I am hilariously rather reserved in my real life 75% of the time. When I went on vacation with a colleague she was worried I would be too uptight but she quickly changed her view after a few drinks. I’m often viewed as a perfectionist and rigid but I’m less of these things than perceived. It’s been an issue for my daughters that I’m trying to strategize dealing with. I’m shifting and becoming much less passive with things that bother me—I got very direct with a family member last night for behavior and it made me a bit nervous. (Not narcissism but some victim drama) I am ok with the same feedback. I’m not strong—I’m becoming more direct and not accommodating “uncomfortable” to the same extent previously in my life. HG is an excellent teacher indeed. As bananas as I’ve been I knew the work was excellent.

          14. windstorm says:

            Very well said.

        5. Mercy says:

          NarcAngel, I am glad you are confident enough to brush these opinions off and stay true to who you are.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            It’s easy. They’re lightweights next to StepN and he failed.

          2. Mercy says:

            He sure did!

        6. kel says:


          Your comment seems to be filled with words taken from one of my comments and that you are insinuating something that I didn’t say. Nowhere did I ever say you were a narcissist. In fact you asked me point blank if I had included you in what I was saying – if I thought you were a narcissist, and I clearly said you were a mystery to me. A mixture of big sis and rowdy person. When you next asked if a sis rowdy person could be an empath, I simply stated that I didn’t know. I also said I didn’t presume to include anyone in my comment. But you keep referring back to it and implying that I was calling you a narc. Narc angel, you are the only one who has accused you of being a narc, as far as my comment goes. I did not.

          HG’s empath detector is accurate for empaths. There is no doubt.

          But telling a narcissist they are a narc is useless, as they can’t hear it or accept it. They aren’t the silly abusive narc’s that come on here from time to time. They are the ones I stated that can serve a purpose, even be helpful with comments. Again I did not name anyone and stated that I did not presume to include anyone specifically.

          I even mentioned in my reply to you that I noticed you seem to be unconvinced about yourself on different posts as if you were questioning it.

          Please stop projecting that onto me. And my use of that word is not an accusation, it is just the most accurate.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Those are two separate sentences and two separate issues. There have been many to suggest that I am a narcissist, so that was not pointed specifically at you, and a very few who have charged it directly. The second sentence does pertain to your comments. I asked you if a big sister rough houser could be an empath with narc traits and you replied that you didn’t know. Fair enough and I respected your answer. You also made the statement that HG keeps some Mids around for his amusement, bidding etc. I was surprised that you thought that and so thought others might as well. I considered the possibility. I asked directly if you considered me one of these Mids and you replied that if you did that it was a stupid question but did not answer yes or no.

            I made a comment about being confirmed by HG to be an S.E. I made it to give readers something to think about when weighing Julie’s comments as she mentioned that she identified with being one. That sometimes we can come across as narcissists when we are not. I never identified Julie as being a narcissist and pointed that out a few times. Some people failed to recognize that I was actually giving Julie the benefit of the doubt and that given time, we might see other indicators of an empath. It was you who followed with the comment about card-carrying SE’s that are all me me me while saying they are nothing special. Seemed pretty clear that was directed at my comment. So far off the mark of my intent but I accept that’s how you see it.

            HG may not tell a narcissist that they are a narcissist, but I doubt he tells them they’re an empath. Your comment still suggests that you still believe he keeps some around other than those who appear time to time, and since you said you were unsure about me that could include me.

            I am not unconvinced about what I am and don’t know what comments you are referring to that suggest that. There are plenty of people who may not like me and find my comments annoying, but as I pointed out previously – annoyance does not equal narcissist. what I got from your comments is that you think I’m superior in stating that I am an SE and are annoyed by my comments about it, and that you might suspect I am a narcissist but that I would ultimately reject it, so you say there is no point in telling me instead of being direct and just saying yes or no.

            I am not projecting Kel. I read your words and that’s what I’m hearing.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            1. I do not keep Mid Range Narcissists around on this blog for my amusement. I explained the position yesterday as to my treatment of them in this place. I am repeating this to ensure there is no misunderstanding.
            2. NA is a SE as per the ED.
            3. I do not tell a narcissist that they are a narcissist, there is no point (for reasons explained many times on this blog). I do not tell them they are an empath.

          3. kel says:


            I answered your candid questions honestly, as you requested. I was not implying anything and I do not spend anytime wondering about it. I said honestly that you’re a mystery as you seem like a big protective sis but then a rough house other times. Whether you can be that as an empath with narcissist traits, I answered I don’t know- that’s why it’s a mystery to me I guess- also why ask me what I think about you? I don’t think about you, and it’s not my place to.

            I did Not say HG keeps mids around for his amusement!

            I said they can serve a purpose and even be helpful on comments. I’m not a black and white thinker, I see the good and bad in all of us, I’ve got nothing against the color gray. I can like narcissists, it’s just not healthy to get too close to them.

            What I was disputing about super empath is that the high narcissism an empath has does not make them a narcissist. That the only time any empath comes close to being like a narcissist, is if they have a supernova. I said an empath with high narcissistic traits is closer to being a Normal than they are to being a narcissist. My point was stop using super empath as an excuse for bad behavior- to agree with you- and to carry it further to explain the high narcissism in an empath is used for good purposes such as in disciplining a child as HG said before, or even in having pride.

            I read in your comments that you are indicating I’m calling you a narcissist. I just wanted to make it clear that I never did.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the clarification, Kel.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            I’m glad you finally got clarification on something Kel said. I got backpedaling on innuendo she made in previous comments about mysterious SE’s and Mids in residence.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            It wasn’t final NA.

          7. NarcAngel says:


            “Maybe he tells them whatever they want to hear that fits their facade because that’s the only thing their narcissism allows them to believe. Their presence here serves a purpose as they tend to want to reap the rewards of having a close association with HG, they will dote over him, kiss up, they carry out useful roles for him, and can actually be helpful commenters”

            “He seems to really dislike the goofy lessers that come on from time to time, so he lets it be a field day for the mid readers to have a food fight that day and enjoy themselves.”

            Both of these comments appear to indicate that there are narcissists in residence on a regular basis as opposed to just once in awhile and that HG is aware of it and uses it to his advantage. Apologies for using the word amusement. I was referring more to the second comment where food fight and enjoyment were used.

            I know you have not called me a narcissist directly. That’s the point. You say you don’t know about me in particular, but then you make these comments that indicate you believe there are some here who regularly comment. Well who are they then? Why be obscure? You’ve already said they won’t accept it but at least the rest of us would be clear.

            And if not me, who are the “card carrying” SE’s who are me, me, me, while pretending to be nothing special? I don’t know too many that have been confirmed by HG and it came right after my comment so it was a bit pointed wouldn’t you say? Others noted the same about your comment, so it was not just me who took it that way.

            So who are these resident mids?
            Who are these card carrying SE’s?
            Let’s be direct.
            Julie was direct. You said you admired that, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

          8. NarcAngel says:


            Also, you subsequently made a comment about people being in a tower. I said there is only one in a tower – HG, and he put himself there. Your response was an eye roll. Weren’t you indicating again that there are those besides HG that think themselves superior and reside in a tower? Did I misinterpret that comment too? The eye roll was not meant as disrespect?

          9. kel says:


            I honestly do not have time for this back and forth quarreling nonsense. You obviously are not interested in obtaining a peaceful and reasonable conclusion.

            I didn’t name you as a narcissist, so why are you so stuck on it? That’s on you, not me.

            I think your comments are rude, and it’s not my cup of tea to respond to that kind of rhetoric.

            I was talking to Julie about the tower. Why does it bother you so much?

            I have to literally leave for an appointment. I cannot believe that you want to go on accusing me of things, being upset, and taking my comments personally.

            Smear if you want, talk bad all you want, get angry all you want. If anyone wants to believe it, that’s on them. I don’t have time for this or interest, it’s that simple.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Though it’s worth pointing out your failure to respond constructively to the contradictions in your comments which I highlighted for you and your use of an ad hominem attack.

            Why did it bother you so much to throw the metaphorical second punch after Julie, when she was addressing other people and not you or is it the case that it’s acceptable for you to express your views but when others wish to express theirs, it is not permissible?

          11. kel says:


            I am at a red light in my car. I don’t have time to respond, and quite frankly the interest either. If you want to take that as a victory for whatever this is, go for it. You follow NA around and agree with everything she says and defend her always like a whipped puppy, and that’s what I mean by the tower and that it’s protected. That doesn’t mean those you protect aren’t empaths, they can be too. Funny you replied to NA on this thread as HG, which was funny considering.

            I’m at my appointment, I will not be late on account of this. I’m not bothered by whatever it is you guys are going on about, and suspect you’ve taken it wrong or out of context. But there, have a field day, tear me down, I have to go. If I’m not comfortable commenting here, then I won’t.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Yet you did respond. Despite having no interest. Your comment is high on emotion and lacking in substance. All noted.

            By the way, you appear to be having an appointment at a red light. How unusual.

            Mind how you go.

          13. lisk says:

            Hope you’re appointment went well, kel.

          14. kel says:

            It went very well, thank you for asking Lisk

          15. NarcAngel says:

            I’m not angry at all and I do want to resolve this – thus the discussion (I don’t see it as a quarrel). I have asked you to clarify things you’ve said in order to effect that. Asking for clarification is not accusing you of things, being upset, or taking your comments personally. It’s also not smearing, talking bad, or being angry. It is simply asking you to clarify statements that you have made in order to determine who these people are that you see as card carrying SE’s who are me, me, me, while pretending not to be better than anyone else, and the Mids that are here on a regular basis that kiss up to HG, dote over him, and carry out useful roles for him, that he then rewards with allowing them to have food fights with the lessers that pop in. These are your assertions not mine. I am only asking you to back up what you assert and to clear any misconception by stating who they are. Once again – you said you admire direct, and people standing up for what they believe in, so I didn’t think you’d have a problem with that.

            If you want to resolve things that is. If not, then saying you’re busy or have no interest is another way out. That’s cool. I understand.

          16. Violetta says:

            Please don’t look at your phone at red lights unless it’s to do a brief check of directions for the next turn. No discussion is worth your safety.

          17. windstorm says:

            Violette n Kel
            I agree completely with Violetta’s comment. Not only does reading n replying to blog comments while you are at red lights make you less attentive to your driving and the traffic around you, but it is not healthy or productive for you. Even though you are sitting stopped at the red light, what you want to type will occupy your mind and continue to do so when the light turns green.

            You will be happier and more effective if you focus on one activity at a time when you are out and about. Then focus on the blog when you have time to focus on it. I know this is difficult to do, since we value multitasking, but it really works. At least in my experience.

          18. kel says:

            Good advice, Thank you Violetta.

          19. Mercy says:

            NarcAngel, Wouldn’t it be nice if people would own their words. Then conversations like this wouldn’t happen, red lights wouldn’t be ran, people would make it to appointments on time….

          20. kel says:


            I own all the words I said. I mean everything I say. I do not like it when you rewrite what I say as in ‘HG keeps mids around for amusement’??? Where the hell did that come from?

            Your not mad at all??? That’s funny because you blasted three highly emotional posts at me just before I had to leave.

            I had a real appointment to go to. It was not made up to get out of answering you. I have a life, and I’m busy building a new life after the narc. I cannot be on here 24/7. I was at a red light and took a look at the thread and had time to start a reply to HG, then the light changed and I finished my reply when I got to my destination.

            To tell you the truth, I have no idea what you’re questioning. I also have zero obligation to answer your questions. Where does it say I’ve got to?

            I stand solidly behind everything I’ve said, but I bloody well do not have to painstakingly take anymore time to break it down and explain it to the likes of you.

            I think you have shown your true colors. And no, there’s no emotion on my part no matter how many times you want to say it because I’m simply not impressed.

            So rant all you want, make all the childish insinuations you want. I don’t see anything empathetic from you on this string.

            You wanted a reply and there it is. Please note I have no desire to comment further with you on this, and I won’t.

          21. NarcAngel says:

            I agree. No further comment needed from either. The venom filled rant before this one side-stepping the questions and describing HG as “whipped” clarified things nicely. This post was just an added extra glimpse.

            So that should be the end. We’ll see.

  5. Lorelei says:

    Hi Zwartbolleke! I am sorry I’m just now responding to you. I appreciate your observation of taking the questions seriously. Much of this was so noisy it was hard for me follow and some comments were missed. Hope you comment more often! Many of the threads don’t get this busy as you know.

  6. Bibi says:

    This thread is a clusterfuck of ass. But I have to give my comment. I am scared to take the ED test b/c something so accurate freaks me out. Not that I am not open and curious, but I am scared. (I sound like I am speaking about anal, lol.)

    W/o compromising it, can someone give me more detail? Are the questions situation based? Couldn’t a Mid Ranger just tell you what you want to hear?

    My fear is that I am a Mid Ranger and don’t know it or some boring ass normal with narc traits or some shit.

    Why? Why do I freak out about these things? I feel like an asshole a lot of the times. Anyway, those are some of my unfiltered thoughts.

    Welcome back, HG. We missed you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is designed to overcome the issue that you relate to. The answers provide an outcome in isolation but also in the collective which guards against the concern that you have. It is specifically designed to prevent second-guessing.

      1. Bibi says:

        I am dying of curiosity. But I gots to save up my dollars, in the interim. I wonder those who you informed were Mid Rangers and how they reacted. That would suck. I know that my douche bag would never accept it.

      2. Lorelei says:

        HG—I hate to be a pain but I thought you weren’t giving empath results on here (in this or any thread) and NA’s were clearly stated in a post up above by you. I find this confusing that this thread went on for days with banter as to my mental stability, questioning results, etc. I think it’s a fair inquiry.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well you would think it a fair enquiry as you have asked it.

          I had NA´s permission to disclose the information. I did so to prevent spiralling.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Makes no sense—it did spiral for over two weeks. Had there been a need to prevent such you could have and simply did not. I’m just calling it what it was—a spiraling mess for a few weeks. You also told Mercy in this thread she wasn’t a narcissist. I think the word or accusation is of little consequence really—it’s simply a devaluation by omission is all. That’s my view—it may not be your view. I think it makes me want to be more all encompassing of valuing people by seeing through what I don’t do as opposed to what I do. I’m not trying to be a jerk—it’s just the thought I have. It’s also not mine to suggest I deserve any courtesy—it’s just maybe a consequence of the time you have in a given moment, how sick you may indeed be of a particular thread, etc. Unfortunately there are messages conveyed when parity of correcting labels are hit or miss.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            See the Rules with regard to pruning.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Is this word salad? What rules? What does pruning have to do with allowing two weeks of narcissism be thrown in one direction and halting it in others?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No it is not.
            The rules of this site, you know, the ones with are in the blog menu. The rules which will be published again this afternoon because you all need to re-read them.
            I have already explained, several times, why the thread proceeded as it did. I did so again earlier today. I am not repeating myself. You are continuing to perpetuate the thread when I have stated that the issue is concluded.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Sorry Loreili, ‘Well you would think it a fair enquiry as you have asked it’ – that did make me laugh HG.

            I don’t keep up with all the threads. It’s not funny what everyone has been putting you through though Loreili, just ignore them and don’t read their comments. Apply NC

    2. windstorm says:

      Don’t know if this will help, since it’s just based on my experience, but I’ve known a whole lot of narcs and they NEVER worry if they are a narcissist. The higher level ones may occasionally “wonder” If they are narcs, but they are lying to manipulate. Midrangers refuse to honestly consider it. Their minds rebel and flee at the very idea.

      I have an upper midranger friend who asked me, “How can you tell if someone is a narc?” The. she said shocked, “That sounds like me! You don’t think I’m one do you?” Then immediately she changed the subject and never mentioned narcissists ever again. Their minds rebel and flee at the very idea.

      So if you’re actually worrying that you may be a midranger, that’s a good sign that you needn’t worry. My opinion.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi windstorm!
        Its nice to see you back here 🤗 hope youve been well!

        1. windstorm says:

          Thank you! I’m still kicking. Hope all is well with you. 😊

  7. Claire says:

    Well said , Kel👍🏻! I second your post regarding Julie and MommyPino👍🏻.

  8. Esther says:

    Whoa! What in the world happened here!? HG are you enjoying your popcorn as you are watching the drama unfold? ) We need the great Narc master to come back and put an end to this! It is way too much drama for your awesome blog, wow!

  9. Bibi says:


    Help! There is just too many.

  10. SMH says:

    So this is where everyone has been all week. Luckily, I had a free couple of hours when I found it so I could make nachos (true story) and read the comments.

    The worst thing I saw was some people trying to back others into a corner. You all know that this is a bullying tactic, right? It also makes for circular conversations like the ones on this thread. You won’t get anywhere that way. Calling someone a narcissist is not the worst thing in the world either, but ironically Lorelei seems to be the only one who sees that. Lorelei, you handled things really well as far as I can tell.

    For the record, I don’t think anyone on here is a true narc, except for HG of course. Some have high ET and some have high LT, some have lots of narc traits and some have few, but no one has demonstrated anywhere near HG’s level of detachment (clearly).

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Kim e and CIF where are you? (jk).

    1. lisk says:


      A crunchy snack is the perfect accompaniment to this thread.

      1. SMH says:

        Haha lisk. A SNARKY crunchy snack.

    2. Caroline-is-fine says:

      LOL…no worries, I’ll always be up for the “Come, Please Help Me Not Screw Anything Else Up” thread…oh, and the film one too, with MP. I’ll be well-rounded!😎

      1. SMH says:

        CIF, I will look for you elsewhere then! xo

    3. Kim e says:

      SMH. I am here. Just staying out of the bullshit….er mayhem….er tearing down of each other. Disappointed in the people that are supposed to be helping each other. Like watching an AA meeting implode. And truly not knowing what to think of HG’s silent treatment
      Other than that just practicing my NC by not replying
      How am I doing…😂😂😂😂😂👿👿👿👿👿

      1. SMH says:

        Kim e, good on you! I think HG is gallivanting around my city visiting museums, but that is all I have been able to glean. When the cat is away the mice will play. See you elsewhere 🙂

    4. WokeAF says:

      There’s blocking into a corner in order to bully

      And there’s presenting facts, evidence, and asking questions and not giving up and letting the TRUE bully get away with spinning nonsense and not being accountable.

      If someone is bullying me here aka flat out calling me a dangerous, manipulative narcissist without any exchange of convo between us beforehand (which is what happened)
      Then I’d be relieved to see ppl stay focused and asking she explain herself and be accountable.

      The thread doesn’t read as a story. The comments were in a certain time placement- you can’t come into the end of a conversation and sum up what just happened in a conversation accurately if you weren’t there to listen to it.
      Yes it’s all written out, but it’s disjointed.

      Pls understand I’m speaking in a neutral fashion and am not criticizing but only offering my response to a couple of points.

      1. WhoCares says:


        “If someone is bullying me here aka flat out calling me a dangerous, manipulative narcissist without any exchange of convo between us beforehand (which is what happened)
        Then I’d be relieved to see ppl stay focused and asking she explain herself and be accountable.”
        This is why I stayed and commented. I felt that Lorelei was being unfairly accused. If someone is going to present their view as “logic” then they should be able to defend with “real” evidence.

      2. SMH says:

        Got it, WAF. I admit that I might have missed some of the 900+ comments! My tendency would have been to walk away (figuratively speaking) but I realize not everyone is like that.

    5. Mercy says:

      SMH, what puzzles me about your comment is why did it take 2 hours to make nachos?? Isnt it like chips and cheese? Maybe a couple garnishments. Haha I figured you would put a word in for Julie. We don’t see eye to eye on that but it’s still good to hear from you. How have you been?

      1. SMH says:

        Hi Mercy! Two hours to make the nachos (with olives, mind you) AND to read the comments :). I wasn’t really defending anyone. I don’t feel that I know Julie well enough to make any judgment. Also, she did walk her accusation back. Maybe she was just testing her narc detection powers!

        I think I asked you awhile back how you were because I had not seen you for quite awhile. Maybe you didn’t see it so glad I can ask again: How are you??!! I hope all is well with your family and Nex is not bothering you. I had a hoover scare over the past month but I discovered yesterday that the FB part of it was not MRN (a techie friend explained how bots work, name harvesting etc) and suddenly a huge weight was lifted and I began to think that I might be almost fully recovered. So I would say that I am very good for the moment!

      2. WhoCares says:


        Best sum up ever!*

        “Basically Lorelei is a narc, were all dumb for interacting with someone so dangerous, we talk about stupid shit, we don’t know how to use a credit card and lorelei is a sex addict. Oh and Julie’s perfect and dates famous people.”

        P.S. I am sincerely sorry for your current legal situation.

        *Couldn’t find a reply button in the appropriate spot.

        1. Mercy says:

          Who Cares,
          Haha I figure that covers the main points. Everything else is just a blur.

          And thank you, NC is making the legal stuff bearable.

          1. WhoCares says:

            “NC is making the legal stuff bearable.”

        2. Lorelei says:

          Whocares–I’m laughing out loud. If I am a sex addict but can’t figure out how to use a credit card how am I going to activate premium access for all the sex sites online? Don’t you have to have a credit card or a gift card to see the really good stuff? Also, just how good does it get if you can use the credit card?

          1. WhoCares says:

            Lorelei – ” If I am a sex addict but can’t figure out how to use a credit card how am I going to activate premium access for all the sex sites online?”
            I am on public transit probably looking like one of ‘crazies’ due to laughing out loud at this.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            The credit card issue was not aimed at you. It was a separate issue/annoyance directed at others.

          3. SMH says:

            Lorelei, The credit card/gift card issue was actually aimed at me and maybe at SP, though it isn’t anyone’s business except for ours and HG’s. (Funny how I was being talked about on a thread that I did not even know existed until way after the fact – wonder how often that happens – maybe I am not paranoid!). I briefly read over the comments again and I have no idea what you did ‘wrong.’ You were obviously just riffing/making a joke.

    6. Lorelei says:

      Thanks smh😀

    7. Lorelei says:

      Also smh it is truly nice to be on the side where being labeled a narcissist isn’t the worst thing as it means I’m gaining a grasp on how it’s not so diabolical and scary. My phone is acting up and won’t capitalize etc so excuse this post. Truly I just invited a Very likely narcissist to a party I’m having that I grew up with and I have a blast with her. They are people and the key is not to get positioned in such a way that we or I get hurt. My childhood friend is loyal for her own reasons as I am to her. Never mind her poor husband but that is his issue. They don’t eat bugs or drool. Some care for their families quite well. Let’s be realistic. Logical. They are not going anywhere and we are becoming empowered to coexist or goso.

      1. Violetta says:

        Rather than attempt to diagnose you or anyone on this site, I will say that I like reading your posts, and if I’m too busy with whatever I can always skip certain subthreads and look for the info I want. HG will be happy to inform you if you’ve put one too many posts on shopping, sex-free semesters, etc.

        Again, I’m not qualified to diagnose anyone, but I can certainly decide I don’t like someone because he or she is a pompous jackass with a head so far up the rectum that it isn’t clear whether whether it ought to be pooped down or puked up. I do not place you in any such category, and neither do a sizable number of other readers here. You won’t be liked by everyone, but nobody is.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          “You won’t be liked by everyone”

          Very true, and that should not be a concern for anyone. A popularity contest is not the goal here or productive in any way. We do not need to take sides or divide into camps.

          1. Caroline-is-fine(&weird) says:

            Are ya sure? No popularity contest? Because I’ve already made up a boatload of campaign posters & buttons -and printed up a batch of really cool-looking ballots…probably way too late to cancel all those worldwide radio spots, the skywriter & cute dancing bear event.😎

            Lucy Ball! I’m in a super weird mood & will absolutely cartwheel my ass right outta here now!🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Umm……huh? Not sure how you received my comment to V or what you meant by yours.

          3. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I was just goofing around/being humorous! 🤸‍♀️ (Clearly, I’ve had too much caffeine & am high on new linoleum glue. Sorry I confused you).

          4. SMH says:

            Good idea to cartwheel out before your “weirdness” is misunderstood, CIF!

          5. MommyPino says:

            Bahaha you’re too cute Caroline! I will see you in the other thread. I cannot cartwheel though. I’m not talented like you. Love you!!! 😘😘😘

          6. Caroline-is-fine says:

            MP~You totally can do a cartwheel – you just need spotter to see what’s not aligned right. I’ll always spot you!🥰 See ya on the (thread) flipside🤸‍♀️XO!

          7. Violetta says:

            Round-off back handspring followed by a back tuck, or no points.

          8. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I so can do that!! 🤸‍♀️

          9. Violetta says:

            Caroline IF:


          10. Caroline-is-fine says:

            😂 You’re so fun, Violetta💛

          11. Renarde says:

            Very well said.

        2. Lorelei says:

          Thanks Violetta. I’m most amused by the dangerous assertion. Most narcissists aren’t dangerous anyway—just a pain in the ass which I can be—but it comes from a benign place. Like I’m always two minutes late for work. It’s not necessarily entitlement but I know I can squeeze more into my day and no one says anything. Sometimes something looks one way but the origin is not as it appears. Additionally, the banter with HG on here is not isolated to me or you. There is a sense of familiarity due to previous consults. See? No one knows this unless they are told. I just left the gym—my trainer and I adore one another. One could look at this and think we fawn on one another. We are like brother and sister. I have no psychiatric diagnosis and even if I did I would appreciate support and not branded as a nut job. I would not question what medicine someone is on or where they work because it’s none of my concern.

          1. Bibi says:


            Nothing she said changed my thoughts on you, so please carry on as always.

          2. Lorelei says:

            Thank you Bibi. I’m too tired for Machiavellian business today. Traveling, working, more travel tomorrow. Was at the beach—came home to work two days and return to the beach tomorrow. Maybe I can shift the tide tomorrow once my feet hit the water.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Also Bibi—it would be totally ridiculous to get overly emotional (for long) over such an event in an imaginary world with questionably “real” characters. I’m not thick skinned by any stretch but I’m not as thin skinned as could be the case or that I have seen. I’d be much more inclined to be “upset” over real world matters in day to day life. Maybe. I’m getting pretty adept at adopting a F off mentality these days. Some of the things that were said were not even conversations I had engaged in so I question the authenticity of the entire debacle to an extent.

          4. Bibi says:

            Bravo, Lorelei. BTW I was just watching this scene. It could be worse. Jack could be following you. Is he scary or what? Holy shit. He is horrible and wonderful at once. I love Stanley so much. <3

          5. Lorelei says:

            I can’t open the link! Nothing scares me because remember, I am the danger!

          6. Lorelei says:

            I was able to open it! She was bananas with her bat! Poor Jack took a hit!

      2. SMH says:

        Lorelei, I totally agree. One of my best friends is also a narcissist. She is very generous and entertaining. I know what my limits are with her so I avoid her if I need attention. I have other friends for that! Also, here we all are having been involved with narcs, mostly in romantic relationships. If they did not have anything going for them I doubt most of us would have gone there.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Interesting, on you & Lorelei’s narc friends…I know it’s not the same thing, but one of my longtime best friends is a SE for sure, and I used to work with her…there were so many co-workers who were downright scared/intimidated by her…to me, she is witty, funny, thoughtful, and an amazingly loyal friend, with the sweetest heart — I think she has to really trust you, for you to get all that essence back. She very much will calibrate to who she is dealing with, but she’s always fair & decent…work peeps would come to ask me to please handle their requests to her, as they were afraid to go to her directly. I’d go to her and she’d always be like, “Of course, no problem.” It was strange to me that nobody seemed to see her like I did. Even when I saw her being supposedly “harsh” (their take) with co-workers, I didn’t really see it as harsh or even intense…more like super focused/to the point/directive/no BS. I did notice her tone was warm with me and one other person – much more cool with others. I don’t have any narc friends…I don’t think.🤔Did you ever get a ST from your friend?

          1. Lorelei says:

            I like the phrase that she calibrates to who she is around. Very nice way to describe what people do.

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, Lorelei🙂

          3. SMH says:

            CIF, People have extreme reactions to me, too – love or hate and not much in between – so maybe I am an SE after all!! 🙂 I can be pretty scary because I can turn it off, just like that, and never look back – MRN was an exception (I think narcs are for most of us). But I also like to think I am fair and generous, especially with junior colleagues at work, my kids etc. Little kids and animals love me. A lot of the juniors come to me because I don’t take any shit, tell it like it is (I am in a profession where there is a lot of backbiting and competition) and have their back, but first they have to get over their fear! hahaha.

            Your friend sounds deep and very empathetic – I don’t think of empathy as always being ‘nice’ – it’s not the same as compassion. I think of it as being attuned to other people’s feelings, good or bad, of being able to read them.

            My friend has never given me an ST but I can tell when she is distancing herself and it is always because I am not giving her enough fuel. As soon as I ask her what’s up, how she is and am ready to listen, we’re back on, but of course it is never really reciprocated. She talks ALL the time – silence is deadly rather than golden. Still, she has good qualities and since I don’t have to live with her or work with her or really depend on her for anything, I can just have fun with her when I am in the mood. I think she is my only narc friend!

            I kind of compartmentalize my friends – they reflect different sides of me, as I am sure is the case for all of us. I do certain things with this one, and other things with that one, etc. I might be in the mood for one and not for another. I know which ones not to mix. The ones I enjoy being around the most are a bit ditzy, though I am not.

            Friends are interesting and it’s a bit strange that we do not talk about them more since they say a lot about a person, especially about female empaths, right?

          4. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You have a really good & generous heart, SMH — you strike me as being pretty guarded at first…or guarded at times, depending on the situation, which is often about being discerning/analytical/making a judgment call based on experience. I understand that very well. In one way, I’m open and friendly – but I’m also appropriately guarded. I take in & reflect about a lot…but ultimately, how much/when I’m guarded is a very intuitive (gut) decision for me. I often make those kinds of decisions in-the-moment, and it’s a very overwhelming feeling I get that it’s best to hold back/wait. For me, trust has to be built, step-by-step. I don’t rush it, and I’ve never been sorry about that.

            It IS a little strange that we don’t talk about the friends aspect on here more. I guess it’s because it’s the romantic entanglement that brought a lot of us here (or work people…well, yah — this may mean a lot of us empaths have chosen our friends wisely!)…

            I think I’ve got about a half/half split (normal & empaths) in my “good friends” circle. The one person who I can’t make heads nor tails of is my high school boyfriend, who I consider a friend & stay in touch with…he’s really a mystery. Looking back on when I dated him, I see him more as an Empath…fast-forward some years, to today, and I had seen him more like a normal, until he started saying some stuff in the past 3-4 months that has made me think he may actually be a (gulp!) MMR…and I feel pretty darn bad for even thinking it. 😳

            Anyway, one thing I really like about this site is there’s always more to reflect on/learn, and I enjoy hearing everyone’s thoughts & going in all different directions of reflecting. It’s interesting, and you really can use it out in RL…whether being more aware/applying concepts…or just broadening your views/being mindful of where people may be at/where you can be more understanding & helpful.

          5. SMH says:

            Thank you, CIF. I am actually way too trusting, which is how the thing with MRN happened. But thankfully he did not make me stop trusting people – or I am finding that distrust was just a phase/part of my recovery. I still believe that most people are trustworthy and treat them accordingly until they show me otherwise. So maybe the opposite of how you go about your interactions. It’s really my on/off switch that is the problem but maybe that is because I don’t take the time, as you do, to get to know people before I get involved.

            I am not sure what a ‘normal’ is but I don’t think there are many among my friends as I tend to be attracted to extremes (find them more interesting). I am guessing that a lot of us have past narcs in our lives that we did not recognize at the time – like your HS bf (my first bf died, sadly). I only realized my exH and mother were both narcs after coming on here, for instance – and I have also found that one of the most valuable things about this blog is the ability to use what we learn irl and to be more self-aware. It has also made me think about how much of my behavior is due to being an empath (presumably – I have not been assessed) and how much is due to having middle child syndrome. Lots to figure out still!

            I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I see from one of your comments that you are offline for the weekend. Enjoy your break!

        2. Lorelei says:

          Correct, at first it was somewhat consuming trying to determine what about who… I have people in my life I have suspicions of—I am not marrying them, officially dating, spending too much time, etc. I’m also not qualified to diagnose but I’m qualified not to tolerate bullshit for sure. My friend is a blast and we see one another maybe annually. So what. It’s not so scary after all. I’m sure there are people my ex husband charms the pants off. Good for him and good for them.

        3. Lorelei says:

          I love the comment about compartmentalizing friends! I have quite a crew within my circle. My favorite people mingle best with everyone. Interestingly, it is often the narcissist friend that makes people feel special and welcome—it’s not always those who don’t hit the narc meter. I have friends that are likely empaths that don’t need attention the same way a narcissist does and maybe that is why there is an aloof quality. Empaths have social barriers and aren’t altruistic enough to not have an elevated sense of themselves mingling with various people. I was very confused about the empath thing—I thought “Who the F is catering to everyone and just loving all people all the time.”

          1. SMH says:

            Lorelei, Same here! My narc friend is an excellent hostess and never ostracizes anyone! Part of it is likely because she needs the attention. I find that she is guarded in some ways – very few people really really know her because she maintains the facade – but she has such an interesting life and is so good at being welcoming that she never lacks for company even though on some level she is lonely. I see now that it is largely due to her fuel needs. I am kind of opposite to her – I don’t need fuel and so my tolerance for other people is lower and I am more discerning about who I spend time with.

          2. Lorelei says:

            Good observations SMH. The jig is up. I’ll never tolerate poor behavior again—ever. I’m working on some finesse in this regard but I think nailing it will come in time. We can’t totally avoid narcissists—it’s unrealistic and there will be engagements etc. Where my danger zone is rests with romantic entanglements and in the work place. This is my focus.

          3. SMH says:

            Lorelei, I seem to have them everywhere – family, romantic relationships, friendships and work. Best to learn how to manage because I can’t or don’t want to escape most of them.

          4. Lorelei says:

            I’m so glad you said all of this SMH. I feel like there is this almost “eerie” stay away from all narcissists kinda thing which is wise of course—but there are several relationships I have that are not an issue. Will they be? I don’t know but they aren’t work or romantic in nature. One of my closest friends died some years back—my memory is so fond. We had a lovely relationship and you see—this notion that narcissists are always unseemly is a bit dramatic. They are often problematic absolutely. But does this mean that we simply just shut down every relationship in the crusade against narcissists as a whole? This is partly why I was amused by being branded a dangerous narcissist. Uh—ok, well get the crucifix out right! Who flipping would be impacted on a blog at the end of the day—skip over and don’t read. Duh. I’m just worn out over always worrying who is what. Sometimes you just go with the flow and shut down conduits of mistreatment as they arise. I can recognize a lot of red flags and stay a distance away certainly, but being on high narcissist alert 24/7 is just not reasonable. My cousin texted me a few days ago. She’s a bitch—guess what—zero reply from me. It’s that simple. She can F off and it doesn’t matter what she is. My friend “Sal” has treated me like gold for twenty years. Is he a narcissist? Highly likely. I’ll text him back. If there is behavior I find unacceptable he can F off. My ET isn’t where I want it but my approach to poor behavior is one of zero tolerance. I also firmly believe I’ll see more and more absolutes and know who is what, but I’m not there yet and I’m ok with where I am.

          5. SMH says:

            Lorelei, I agree. Plenty of empaths and normals are annoying and plenty of narcs are entertaining, as long as one is not too emotionally invested in them and they are not serial killers!

          6. Lorelei says:

            I don’t think there are many serial killers fortunately!

          7. SMH says:

            Lorelei, No there aren’t but I did tell MRN he could have been a serial killer in another life!

          8. Lorelei says:

            SMH—did you ever figure out how to use gift cards because I can’t and it’s messing up my life?!

          9. SMH says:

            Lorelei, I did not. I couldn’t find a differently branded card so in the end I gave up and used my own credit card. HG now knows my name but I worried for nothing – it doesn’t bother me at all because I realized that I haven’t done anything other than tell my story and every word I write is true.

  11. Soon to be sparkling! says:

    My red-flag-o-meter is going off the charts.

    I can’t shake the feeling that there is something much more sinister going on here, than what appears on the surface.

    I have thought about it all as it’s been going on and I keep coming back to one important thing; everything was fine and then it wasn’t. Only one thing happened here that changed the current.

    So to me, the one that changed things is the one with an intent. And if I’ve learned anything here, it’s that we have to listen to our intuition.

    My intuition says that you Julie, have come along with much motivation and an intense interest in someone else.

    I don’t need to think of any of the possible reason as to why you’ve chosen that action. I have learned not to buy any more tickets to go on merry-go-rounds.

    I see cold, detached and argumentative behaviour.

    It’s irrelevant how calm your comments are presented. The content within them speaks volumes.

    I’m disappointed in myself for not saying anything sooner. I don’t really know my place here and I don’t enjoy conflict. I don’t enjoy bullying either. And that’s all I can see.

    Pointless and irrelevant bullying.

    I’m reminded of what led me to this safe site in the first place.

    Lorelei, we’ve never spoken, but I’m so sorry that you’ve had to experience this passive aggressive landmine wrapped in calm and collected poison. I’m so sorry that I stayed quiet in the background. Sometimes we learn more by observing than participating and I’m ashamed that I didn’t speak up sooner. I hope that you’re ok.

    But Lorelei, do you get a feeling that there is much more to this than meets the eye? Please remember why we’re here and what else is here. It might be in your interest to really think about this very odd situation as there may be more than one way to view it.

    If anyone is offended by my comment, then I will apologise now in advance. I don’t want to upset anyone and if I have, please know that I don’t mean to.

    But there is a way to talk to people that has not been displayed here. And that’s what’s wrong with the world. People hurt others and palm it off as ok. It’s not ok.

    1. NotMe! says:

      Hey STBS,
      I’m with you. This does have a very sinister feel and for me is so reminiscent of the toxic situation that I am trying to escape. Reading/watching bullying, gaslighting and manipulation isn’t my idea of fun or learning.
      I was coming to this site to help reduce my ET, now I have to pick and choose whose comments I’ll read as I look for articles and comments that include the information and insight that I’ve found so useful. I’ve mostly decamped to youtube to listen to HG. I had anxiety about listening to/engaging with a narcissist in order to escape one (or stay escaped anyway), but you are right, it did feel safe here, when others around me can’t understand because it’s unbelievable. N-ex is a fucking amateur compared to some of the stuff I’ve read on this thread. I’m sure some people are enjoying it, learning from it etc. And that’s great. Perhaps it’s all too raw for me just yet. I’m glad that when I first came here a few weeks ago, that I didn’t see any of the pissing contests that abound currently, I’d have quickly exited. I feel sad for anyone who has stumbled in here fresh over the past few days as I’m sure they wouldn’t have had the same experience that I did when at a very low point and looking for answers. Reading HG’s articles helped me but not as much as the comments from people who seemed to understand from my perspective rather than his. HGs comments were brusque on occasion but not cruel and devaluing, that I saw anyway.

      Anyway STBS, I hope you’re shining brightly very very soon. And to all the other commenters who helped me with their comments, insight and humour, many thanks. Bye for now x

      1. FYC says:

        Hello Sparkling and NotMe! I agree with you both and I want to apologize to you both (and anyone who shares your feelings) for my part in this thread. I grew up with two narcissists who projected, lied, manipulated, gaslighted, gave silent treatments, blamed, shamed and maligned with regularity, superiority and zero conscience. As result, I learned to stick up for others, and myself when warranted, when I see another being maligned or feel maligned under the same circumstances. That is what I perceived in this thread. But after reading your comments, I am rethinking my own participation. I don’t think I helped anyone, except perhaps to let those know, whose empathy I feel, that I see and support them. Regardless, HG has said repeatedly when you know, you go. I saw and knew, but kept reading and commenting on occasion. I failed. I take responsibility for that and sincerely apologize. I will not travel these roads again. Thank you for your comments. They were very insightful, helpful and balanced. I hope no new person was turned away by this sad thread exchange. I feel awful if that is true, because I know how much HG’s life-changing assistance has helped me. I wish you the best in your ongoing recovery.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Speaking up and offering empathy is a valued contribution in my view

          1. FYC says:

            Thank you, Woke, mine too, but if it in any way prevented someone from getting help I would feel awful. I appreciate your kindness.

      2. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hi Notme,

        Like you, I experienced high ET as I read through it. It triggered me over and over again.

        I’ve always been taught that I’m wrong and I had lost faith in my own self. But with healing, (spurred and nurtured by coming here) I have learned to believe what I feel and listen to that warning voice.

        I’m not worried to read the comments, as like you said, many of them are just so helpful (and some are fun too, which I personally love). But now, I do have to second guess myself about what I post. When triggered, I tend to just pour it all out and maybe part of my learning is to be quieter (not easy for me 😉).

        Hopefully any new people that find their way here, don’t notice this thread!

        I’m shining again ☀️, almost back to bursting and I’ve noticed that I’m attracting happiness all around me again, so I know that I’ve come through all this.

        Thankyou just so much for the warm wishes and to you, I wish the the same. I hope going forward that you find peace from your situation and endlessly happiness 🤗!

        I hope I see you around again (not from another entanglement), but if not, take good care of you luv! Xoxo

        1. K says:

          Soon to be sparkling!
          I agree; I hope new people don’t notice this thread either. Sorry about the clash of personalities.

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hi K 🤗

            Please, no apologies needed.

            People have personality clashes all the time. We’re all different so of course, we all view things differently, so of course we all get triggered by different things and act accordingly.

            You helped me so much at my lowest stage (while I was trying to be so strong and brave) that if I could wrap my arms around you and hug you to bits, I surely would!

            Haha! Let’s hope newcomers still have their rose tinted glasses on and only see all the awesome articles and all the wonderful comments.

            He should change the name of the thread to “Move along..nothing to see here folks!”

          2. K says:

            Thank you Soon to be sparkling!
            Awwww….I am so glad that I was able to help you when you were at your lowest stage. Many of us come here with broken hearts and broken spirits looking for answers, comfort and understanding. You are strong and brave, after all, you made it here and your journey will continue to get exponentially better for you and, if I could, I would hug you to bits, too!

            Ha ha ha….from time to time, we have a Clash of the Titans, which is understandable, as you pointed out. Let’s just hope the newcomers aren’t turned off enough to exit-stage-left.

            If you don’t mind, I am going to name this thread: “Move along..nothing to see here folks!”

          3. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            You’re welcome K 🤗

            Thankyou too for your lovely comments!

            I hope no one leaves either.

            I can’t imagine that many newcomers would leave though, because when they finally make their way here, they are suffering intense pain and are 100% focused on every single bit of information they can get. Their minds are so fixated on the shock of what’s happened to them, that any of the clashes they see in comments couldn’t possibly compare to the clash they are so desperate to finally learn about.

            Here’s hoping!

          4. K says:

            My pleasure Soon to be sparkling!

            I think you may be right. The sheer madness of NPD abuse is so traumatic that this thread may pale in comparison to the real life horror that some of the newcomers have experienced.

            There’s always hope!

      3. K says:

        Narcsite is a safe place to learn so, please, don’t let the pissing contest change that. I am very sorry it turned out the way it did on this thread.

        1. Lorelei says:

          K—in reply to how dark NPD abuse can be compared to this thread.. Guess what?! It’s not abuse to me anymore nor does it need to be for anyone. Why? After HG’s university IT IS as apparent as the stupidity as a damn goat in a petting zoo. That’s how rudimentary (Absolute basic) the machinations are. There is a healthy way to inquire about someone’s behavior and there is another way. Period. That’s why I was irked at first toward HG—a knee jerk “ what the heck—is he blind?” thought. I doubt it quite seriously. He doesn’t need to reply on this thread— it speaks volumes and is perfect in its own way. **An ill intended person can’t “hurt” me anymore. It is because they’ve lost the thrust—it’s been removed from the capacity to “pack a punch.”

          1. K says:

            Once you recognize the manipulations then you realize what you are dealing with and there’s no need to continue to engage or argue anymore. Apply The Golden Rule of Freedom – No.1. There was a lot of discord and drama on this thread over harmless banter, which speaks volumes about those involved. They are irrelevant; just ignore them. According to the rules, it’s my understanding that HG does not involve himself in disputes.

            Word of the day: skulduggery.

            Rule 7. Contrary to belief I have no interest in people falling out with one another. It is not involving me so therefore I am interested in it.


          2. Lorelei says:

            Shall I engage in some skulduggery?! What a lovely word! I did go super nova on my kids for being messy today. Isn’t that where you get WAY pissed and go bananas? I was snatching electronics, looking like a crazy person, etc. I was not elegant but the messes got cleaned up!
            The manipulations are becoming clearer each day. Not only narcissists.. Any behavior that contradicts my sense of freedom is getting shut down—no matter what. I invite others to do the same—if you don’t like what I post move on.
            It’s a silly notion that there is any flirting either—I consulted with HG quite a bit to manage my divorce and of course a sense of familiarity is prompted. It’s ridiculous from my perspective, although I can see where an outside observer could misinterpret not knowing the facts. Absolutely yet however—is such a notion worthy of generating a post with over 1000 comments and an assertion that I am a dangerous manipulative person? Wouldn’t that compel me to banter endlessly to pursue fuel if I were a narcissist? If anyone is truly reading it is astonishing that this simple fact would be overlooked. There was no tail tucked due to wounding because wounding wouldn’t be the narcissist “go to” when challenge fuel is issued. I’m quite open about my foibles as I see them and always seek to perfect upon these issues. Maybe I have more than some to clean up, and I certainly have less than some others. I have an entire exciting path mapped out for the coming year to put my energy into—I’m happy about it. I’m starting a terminal degree program, pursuing several certifications, teaching, traveling… I have my entire life ahead and it will be excellent and free from the overbearing influence of those that are toxic.

          3. K says:

            Ha ha ha…there was enough skulduggery and monkey business on this thread for all of us! I don’t mind what you post and I will continue to read your comments. I have not perceived any flirting at all and, even if you were flirting, it would not bother me at all. Flirting or teasing is harmless and very normal. You are not a dangerous or manipulative person, from my POV, and the banter brings much needed levity to a serious subject matter. I think you should just carry on and ignore the noise around.

            Word of the day: Bumfuzzled. I was bumfuzzled by all the ballyhoo on this thread.

          4. Lorelei says:

            Ballyhoo is fun. I’m too tired to manipulate anyone.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Well that’s good because you’re shit at manipulation lol. Enjoy the beach.

          6. Lorelei says:

            Thank you. Sometimes I can plot out a plan that benefits me and it seems manipulative in that the variables were indeed manipulated strategically, but it’s different than the under-handed sort.

    2. Lorelei says:

      Yes soon to be—it is unusual for this brand of emphasis to be intense toward someone a person has had no dialogue with. Not impossible certainly. Unusual. Again—I won’t be overly implying my thoughts because too much of that has transpired here. My thoughts are irrelevant anyway—each person deserves their own take away and hopefully it illustrates something beneficial for each reader. I know it’s been immensely helpful for me—both on a self reflective level and a good reminder of things better left unsaid.

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        It’s certainly an eye opener, Lorelei.
        For what it’s worth, you always gave me a bit of a giggle, which was the last thing I ever expected to find here. I’m sure many others enjoyed your playful banter too. Talk about a shining light!

        I didn’t see someone coming back here due to another entrapment.

        I didn’t see someone coming back here in need of support, due to a relapse.

        I didn’t see someone coming back here as healed and now able to help others.

        I saw a direct bee-line for one person with absolute intent.

        In a way, it is a big lesson to us all and how did we ever forget; everything we say, can and will be used against us!

        I hope you don’t change. We have every right to be ourselves and it will always irk unhappy people. That’s their problem though. Certainly not ours.

        Things left unsaid can be hard for our personality types (for me anyway!)”.

        Anyway, we can’t change the world

        1. Lorelei says:

          Just saw this soon to be! I’m glad I’ve made you giggle!

    3. Soon to be Sparkling:
      Please don’t apologize for speaking the truth… and doing so articulately.
      I’m new here too and I agree with your observations 100%. We see what we

      What a way to be introduced to people!

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hi nightstandsecrets,

        Thankyou 🤗 and welcome!
        It’s nice to meet you, but I’m sorry for the circumstances that made you find your way here.

        I’m new too (I think? Er..new-ish).

        Honestly, this place is an absolute gold mine for helpful information and to know that we’re not alone and that we’re not crazy.

        We do see what we see! Our vantage point may have been shaded previously (obviously), but we have to learn to have faith in ourselves, regardless of other people’s opinions or manipulations.

        1. zwartbolleke says:

          Most of the regular readers here don’t know me yet, since I never introduced myself as I should have.
          I am on this blog for 1,5 years (june 2018) but limited my interactions to asking questions to Mr Tudor and reading. Very rare did I interact with the readers.
          But I did read the comments so I got to know the regular commentors. 

          I was on the ED thread when things got heated and could not believe my eyes (only reading).
          I was also on the audio thread so I know what happened there (only reading). 
          I was also on this thread when the bomb was dropped. 

          This thread has hurt me so deeply, I could not understand why everybody was seeing red flags in so many people and I kept trying so hard and pushing myself to the limit, directing myself: comon: read read read, learn, apply, see it. SEE IT.

          Just as Windstorm and Kim e and some others described it: this lived in my body for several days…
          I felt heartbroken and bewilderd. Total chaos. 

          It certainly did me feel very reluctant to comment or interact ever again. Because I know I am not strong enough to face this storm if this happens to me.  
          And contrary to N: I hate attention!

          So to introduce myself in short: I live in Belgium, not married, no children, divorced 15 years ago (yes, 15 years single! Imagine that!), we speak Dutch so English doesn’t come naturally for me, I live with my cats and besides my job I have a dance company, so my time is limited. 

          My name ‘zwartbolleke’ is from my (passed away) cat, it means: Black Sweetheart, she was the most beautiful pure black cat, her coat always gleaming, died this summer young age of kidney disease 🙁

          I have in common with you all my interest in this subject of narcissism, and studying very hard. 

          1. windstorm says:

            Welcome! I’m not really here much anymore, but I am following this thread. I understand what you’ve said very well. I, too followed the blog over a year before I commented. And also this thread has been painful for me to read. I did spend 5 hours reading all 1100+ comments, though, in order to better understand what was going on. I, too, will do painful things in order to learn.

            My own personal philosophy is never to say anything hurtful to another to further my own understanding. And that’s probably primarily because other people’s pain hurts me – sometimes even more than it hurts them. I sense you may find this somewhat true as well.

            I am sorry for the loss of your cat. I have a solid white cat named Raoul. He is 14 now and in poor health. I fear this winter may be his last. Unfortunately that’s the way of animals. We just have to let them go, move on and share our love and lives with new animals.

            I hate attention also and find withstanding negative comments and insinuations very difficult, too. I am a very reclusive and solitary person because of this. But that is how I have been made and I can only assume it was for a purpose. We all of us have to live within the limits of our natures and not let them prevent us from achieving our goals. Don’t let other people’s differences make you feel badly about yourself. I routinely commented here for years and had primarily good experiences. If you are respectful of others, I have found that they will usually be respectful in return. Don’t be afraid to add your insights to the blog!

            I am glad you commented and that I saw it. Learning that another kindred spirit is out there has brightened my evening. I will keep you in my thoughts and hope to hear from you again. ❤️

          2. K says:

            Hello windstorm
            Good to see you and Happy Thanksgiving!!!

          3. windstorm says:

            Happy Thanksgiving to u too!

          4. zwartbolleke says:

            Thank you Windstorm 💛💛, that is so very kind, and thank you for taking the time to comfort me!
            Yes I can relate to the things you say, I don’t have to explain that because I know you feel that!
            Nice meeting you, x

          5. windstorm says:


          6. FYC says:

            Hallo Zwartbolleke, je bent een goede ziel. Het spijt me zo te horen over de dood van je mooie zwarte kat. Ik hou zielsveel van mijn huisdieren en leef mee met je pijn. Vergeef alle opmerkingen die ik heb gemaakt die op u van invloed kunnen zijn. Ik ben ook gevoelig, maar ik zwijg niet als anderen valse beledigingen doen. Die draad maakt me nog steeds van streek. Bedankt dat je naar voren bent gekomen en jezelf hebt voorgesteld. Je wordt gewaardeerd.

            Hope that translation is readable and mostly accurate. Take care.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I felt like I was flying KLM again, FYC!

          8. FYC says:

            Lol, HG, I love your humor. I don’t speak Dutch, but since she does, I thought I’d make a quick effort to translate as she does for us.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Your Dutch was good, certainly not double.

          10. FYC says:

            Haha thank you.

          11. K says:

            Sorry about the chaos, sometimes, the clash of personalities can get very heated. I hope you continue to read and comment irrespective of the clash.

          12. Kim e says:

            zwartbolleke. Hi. I read a lot also without commenting. Some days I ignore it completely. Some days I need contact with others that understand. The thread from hell as I call it was a very rare occurrence. As I really was overwhelmed with it I ignored it. Go with your feelings for the moment. Just remember we are here for each other whether you need to laugh yell rant or cry.

          13. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hi zwartbolleke,

            I’m so sorry that you lost your kitty.
            It’s lovely that you picked a name based on her. ❤️

            Well, it’s lovely to meet you!

            The thread was very upsetting. Please don’t let it get to you though.
            Afterall, it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

            I kept seeing other thread names being mentioned, but I’m choosing not to bother reading them. Past is past and whatever happened, happened.

            Have you been affected by Narcissism personally or do you find the topic fascinating?

          14. zwartbolleke says:

            Dear K

            “Sorry about the chaos, sometimes, the clash of personalities can get very heated. I hope you continue to read and comment irrespective of the clash.”

            If you ever find me contradicting myself, I invite you to show me how en where I have contradicted myself so I can admit my mistake (or explain, if possible). I have no intention at all to contradict myself. Please understand also that I have to translate the info I read and then if I react I have to translate my words again, so misunderstandings and interpretation errors are very likely to occur. But I will not often poste an opinion myself, since I know I am not strong enough to cope with all the reactions. 
            I will however try to be more interactive. In my own (soft) way 🙂

          15. K says:

            You are doing fine with the translation and your empathic traits of truth seeking and decency have presented. Here’s some reciprocity, if you see me make a contradiction, please, feel free to point it out so I can correct, or clarify, myself, as well (empathic traits of fairness and decency). This thread isn’t typical so interact as often as you are comfortable doing so. Most people are open-minded (trait of fairness) on narcsite and are tolerant of other’s opinions.

          16. zwartbolleke says:

            Kim e
            “zwartbolleke. Hi. I read a lot also without commenting. Some days I ignore it completely. Some days I need contact with others that understand. The thread from hell as I call it was a very rare occurrence. As I really was overwhelmed with it I ignored it. Go with your feelings for the moment. Just remember we are here for each other whether you need to laugh yell rant or cry.”

            Thank you very much Kim e for your kind words!
            Nice meeting you!

          17. zwartbolleke says:


            “Hope that translation is readable and mostly accurate. Take care.”

            Dear FYC
            Thank you so much for your kind reply, I am impressed by your effort to write me in Dutch! That is such a nice gesture!
            Nice meeting you 🙂

          18. zwartbolleke says:


            “Have you been affected by Narcissism personally or do you find the topic fascinating?”

            Dear STBS,

            Thank you for your kind words.

            Nice meeting you too!

            Yes N all over in my life, in family, colleagues, friends, romantic, and also, I am a dance teacher, there are a lot of N attracted to the stage, craving for attention, which is a problem for my other students who are often vulnerable women with a loaded past (is that correct English?), who are genuinely seeking to love their body’s again after abuse of all kind (I teach Burlesque, so we work around bodypositivity and selflove). 

            I study and then I study some more about narcissism, it’s a confusing time, to say the least!

            I read your story on the sex thread some weeks ago, I have had the same problem (10 years ago already), that is not good, I hope you can get it out your head. Do your very best, because you really want it 🙂

            We will read one another again for sure on other threads!

      2. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Oops! I pressed send instead of backspace! (Have I mentioned that I hate the WordPress app? I HATE the WordPress app). Seriously! Sometimes I’m halfway through a post and I have to do some chore, so I delete my post, with the intention to reply later. I come back to it, address it from a different angle or from wherever my frame of mind has drifted to and then I realise that both replies were uploaded! Hahaha and also..Grrrrrrrr!!


        There is not normally (from what I’ve seen) any unkindness here and I was shocked to see it. Having said that…we are in an unusual place so I suppose it’s bound to attract conflict at times. Empaths can fight for justice like I’ve never seen and narcs, well…they just fight, haha, so in hindsight, I guess I’m shocked there isn’t more trouble.

        I hope your not put off (though understandable, if you are) as this place changed everything for me. I was so lost, uttetly crushed and hanging on by a thread and now I’ve bounced back with narc-vision and it’s a blessing. I don’t take unpleasant behaviour in my personal life anymore and I can say no now. I learned to trust myself regardless of what other people think about that and I’ve learned to pull back from people instead of putting up with hurtful situations. I have never been able to walk away from problematic people until now. I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but I’m indebted and grateful for having somewhere to go. I’m happy here and every single day, I read something new that I can relate to. It was a lonely road until I found my way here.

        The helpful comments from the visitors and the advice from the moderator is all very hands on and it’s honestly priceless.

        I hope you stay and I hope you find the comfort and assistance that you need here.

        It’s a good place and you’re not alone anymore!


        1. NarcAngel says:

          STBS and others newer to the blog

          Please do not let what you read here discourage you from participating on the blog. It is not a common occurrence and you are in the very best place to get the information you need. There are many personalities here with different backgrounds and in different stages of their entanglement, and I promise you the majority are kind, intelligent, and supportive, so don’t be afraid to interact. The more you read, the more you will understand and be able to apply that knowledge to not only your situation, but to better understand both narcissists and empaths and how/why this type of thing can occur (again – it is NOT common). So read the articles, read the books, watch the videos, and consult with HG. And PLEASE interact with others – it will enrich your experience here and we want to learn from you as well. It is a safe, fun, and unrivalled learning environment.

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hi NarcAngel,

            I just couldn’t agree with you more!

            Almost everything I have seen here encourages me to think clearer, try harder and be brighter.

            It’s an amazing forum and the information and the participation here is wonderful!

            We are definitely all at different stages of recovery and growth and it’s actually good to see that even so, everyone still comes together in a 99% positive way!

            There will be disagreements and opposing views, as there should be really. We each come from our own situation that affects us all in different ways. We don’t follow the leader here. We learn and think for ourselves and say what is absolutely right from our own hearts and experiences.

            I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to have found this place and I sure hope many others come along!

            I’m at the ‘wtf was I thinking stage’ and I’m moving to the ‘time to help others” stage and frankly, I wouldn’t be as happy as I am again without all you lovely souls and our patient host!

            Thank f*ck for everything here! It feels like a home away from home.

        2. Oh hey Sparkles (may I call you “Sparkles”? I think it’s ’bout the cutest nickname evah!)
          Anyway, I forgot to say, “nice to meet you” so I’m doing that now.

          It’s actually been nice to “meet” several people on here.
          There are a few that… meh… the jury is still out. 😁

          Anyhow, yeah, it’s been enlightening to read the blog posts and some of the comments people have shared.
          I hope to see ya around 👍

      3. K says:

        Welcome to the blog! Sorry about the kerfuffle; it’s a terrible way to introduce people.

  12. Claire says:

    Thank you, lisk.
    I second your opinion about the ED:)

    “Either way, I would question/assess the result, as I question/assess everything, and utilize it accordingly. Questioning and assessing for myself in no way is meant to diminish the Detector or HG. “
    I noticed this morning ( I am in a different time zone ) that some so called EmpathS made very unpleasant comments about your posts.
    I like your posts and I do hope those comments won’t discourage you to express your views.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Empaths are not saints. Empathy can be reduced owing to external stressors, so empaths make mistakes, do bad things etc.

      1. Claire says:

        Thank you for the clarification, HG! I really appreciate how you correct my ET in a calm, elegant and helpful manner.
        I admire your astonishing ability to restore the balance on this comment tread using the logic and facts.
        I can only learn from you like one can learn from a good mentor.

    2. lisk says:

      Thank you for your kind words and encouragement, Claire.

      I likewise appreciate your posts!

  13. Bibi says:

    HG, what say you? Are you still there?

    1. Violetta says:

      He’s gone AWOL. Can’t say I blame him. Ping me when the conversation goes back to sex.

      1. Bibi says:


        1. WokeAF says:

          I Wanted to say that your “clown shoes “comment had me laugh out loud and I will be using that in the future

          1. Bibi says:

            Haha. Thanks, Woke. I stole it from someone else, so feel free to pass it on.

    2. lisk says:

      Of course HG is still here.

      I’ll take a stab at what HG could say:

      “Julie, and all the rest, if you think you see a narcissist (whether or not I have determined one as such), GOSO.”

  14. Claire says:

    Hi WokeAF,

    Regarding your question “But who are you to say? It’s HG’s blog. “ I am going to try keeping my answer short :
    I am a reader who openly express my opinion online in the same manner as offline , IRL.
    The nerd mentality doesn’t align with my moral values. Hence if I disagree with some opinions on this blog I am not afraid to express my disagreement.
    This is HG’ s blog, that’s right and I welcome the opportunity that we can voice our thoughts here.
    I stand behind my initial post and I am aware that not everybody will agree with my opinion.That’s OK and it is normal.
    I was the one who doubted some results of the ED after observing some behaviours here .

    „Cogito ergo sum“

  15. Claire says:

    Hi NA,

    “Did you all miss the comment where I noted that he would not interact with the same regularity and in the same way with Lorelei aa he does with the narcissists who fly in? “

    I believe that HG teases Lorelei either for some quick fix low grade tertiary sourced fuel either for his entertainment.
    That’s is not enough for me to consider that Lorelei is an empath either.
    I didn’t witnesses enough of his interactions with narcissists in this blog , therefore I cannot comment further.

    I agree that we are all guests in HG’s House however when some guests are crossing the boundaries , other guests have the right do not cheer them up but to disagree with their behaviour.

    Yes we can leave the blog if we don’t like the rules . However just because some individuals have longer tenures on the blog the fact doesn’t give them any kind of superiority over the newer readers or commenters.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I agree that we can all offer opinion, but that is hardly all that happened here. It went from opinion, accusation, and on to how the blog should be run. I also agree that tenure means nothing. Julie P has been around a long time but rarely comments and yet she displayed what many thought was superiority. No one here is more superior to another (except HG will tell you he is) and yes, I include myself.

  16. Caroline-is-fine says:

    MP: I appreciate your authenticity & dedication in not abandoning your inner voice, as well as your compassion and sense of justice & fairness.
    Kel: I appreciate your courage.
    Lisk: I appreciate your inner strength & discernment.
    Julie: I appreciate your calm voice & the simple truths you feel led to speak, as I have a serious narcissistic issue on my hands, & a few things you said made me realize I am blurring lines/being prideful about my ability to handle dangerous people & putting myself in unnecessary danger.

    1. MommyPino says:

      Caroline is fine, I miss you!!! Thank you so much for your courage as well. You’re always there for me! If you’re still up to the film analysis I am now game for it. Was it Far From the Madding Crowd.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        I’ve only been on one thread, ever since you left. Like a “sit in” — but a “thread-in” – Lol…Dang, who knew that would actually work & you’d come back??? 🤗🤸‍♀️

        Not gonna lie~going on the film thread would be a fantastic stress reliever (I can’t even talk about my narc situ right now/I’m both drained & trying to stay calm).

        Take your time on watching the movie, but yep, that’s the right one (I watched the 2017 release). 🙂Sounds fun, thanks so much.❤Catch ya at the movies…I’m not subscribed yet to that thread, so please send me word (or link?), whenever you’re all set.🤸‍♀️

        1. MommyPino says:

          Hi Caroline is fine, I’m sorry about your situation. I think that we should definitely do the stress reliever. I will write more later. I will find you in a different thread!

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Sounds good, MP~I look forward to it.❤ BTW, in case you read that other post to lisk, the glimmer of “hope” I still have for my nex has nothing to do with being involved with him in any capacity, just in case you think you’ve been away so long that I’ve completely lost it…it’s much better than that — he’s stalking me (home turf), & I’m thinking maybe I can save his soul — Isn’t that so much better?😂…No, not correct on the saving soul part, but it’s a philosophical thing, for later…but next up, fun & frivolity! THE MOVIES🍿 Let fictional characters take a narc hit for a change, lol

          2. MommyPino says:

            Caroline is fine, I don’t think that you would ever lose it. Your situation is challenging given the tenacity of the narcissist you are avoiding. I have never experienced that and wouldn’t know how I would deal with it. You handle yourself so well and doesn’t lose your cool. You have very high logical thinking and you know what is right for you. The idea of saving his soul without being involved with him is a great sign that you are not under his power because you don’t hate him and you are back to being your true empathic self and you feel free to recognize your love for him as a fellow human being and nothing more. He is also a child of God after all.
            I will get ready for our movie discussion. I will try to watch it this week although I don’t know when yet because Thanksgiving is coming. I will comment to you in the Overwhelming Angel thread when I post at the film thread. Much love to you!!! 😘😘😘

          3. Caroline-is-fine says:

            The notifications on this page (and others, it seems) are so messed up, lol…I just now got the comment you posted here to me on Nov. 25, about you sensing I still having calm, cool logic, while maintaining my empathy, as pertains to my nex. I humbly feel that is true, and I posted over on the “Overwhelming Angel” today about what I’m reflecting upon, in this regard. But thank you, for having faith in me – in believing I can apply what I have learned but also be fully who I am meant to be, and maybe make a difference, with & in that…not fix anything…but think higher, for something that would normally be out of my reach. I feel strong, calm, grounded & at peace, with whatever is next on my journey.💛
            P.S. There was no way to reply to your comment directly, so who knows where this will end up? 🥴 For anyone I’m not responding to on my other 1 or 2 main threads I’m on, my apologies…I’m just not currently getting all comments/notifications to my inbox.

    2. lisk says:


      I appreciate your acknowledgment and support of Julie, Kel, MP and me. I would add Claire to that list . . . and there may be more, too, some of whom are not posting words because, well, they see what can happen when they do (or maybe they just have fuller lives than I do at the moment!).

      I hope you are able to untangle yourself from your serious narcissistic situation and to do so quickly.

      I have no idea about the details of your situation. However, if it is of any use to you, I will share a recent experience I had regarding my own pridefulness and how I allowed ET to suck me into a dangerous situation.

      I had a serious narcissistic issue on my own hands (non-romantic, work-related) over the past few months. I thought I could handle a particularly dangerous narcissist who was entrenched in our organization. Referencing the knowledge that I acquired from HG, I knew exactly what she was doing at all times. I even purchased HG’s “How to Handle the Narcissist at Work” when I sensed the start of the devaluation (yes, there was a Golden Period and I knew I was in it).

      Unfortunately, I allowed pride and ET to take over at one point and allowed it to override HG’s sound advice (which I only listened to once without taking notes) and I nearly buried myself because of it.

      As I mentioned, the narcissist was entrenched there. People knew she was a narcissist. HR has been trying to get rid of her. HR could not and cannot do anything about her–people will complain to HR, but when it comes for confidential interviews that could lead to an investigation, people back out.

      Fortunately, after my posting a comment here on KTN about “the female narcissist at work” and offering my own personal advice on how to handle her and having that comment corrected by HG (“Wrong. You GOSO.” is essentially what he said–not exact quote here), I snapped out of my pride. I wanted to “beat” a narcissist and it was becoming quite clear to me that I would either lose or that I would spend way too much energy trying to “win.” I made a quick move, and I got out. I was lucky. I was able to get out of one job and into a new job in less than a week.

      All of this to say to you, Caroline, that, especially because you recognize your pridefulness, you are in a very good position to get yourself out of unnecessary danger.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        Thank you, lisk. It’s very giving of you to share that with me, especially in the midst of the angst of this thread, which I know affects you. It reminds me of this dear lady I encountered recently. I don’t normally cry in front of people, so when I had this moment of being overcome in a public place & felt myself choking up, I felt trapped. There was no place to go, so I moved as far away from everyone as I possibly could and just shielded my hand over my eyes, but I had this awful sound coming out of me, like strangled sobs…ugh, embarrassing.

        This Mom came over to me. She was juggling her baby on her hip…a toddler was pulling the bottom of her purse, and an older child kept asking her for something, over & over. She said to me so gently, “Are you okay, sweetie? Can I help you?” — as she’s finger-flicking away one kid – shushing another – and juggling her baby back to the other hip – and then she said, “Let me get you a Kleenex, can you grab my purse?…Sorry…How many damn kids do I HAVE?!” I looked at her & started laughing, which made her laugh too, so there we were, like 2 junior high girls, with a fit of the giggles at a sleepover…She was such an earthly angel, and such a neat thing came out of that. Anyway, people who take a minute to give grace to others, no matter what they’re caught up in…it’s touching.❤

        Yes, I’ve made a mistake, in thinking my inner peace was some indicator that I could “manage” my nex. “No, Caroline – just because you feel good on the inside doesn’t mean there’s not a tornado tearing through your environment that will eventually make impact…like get the F out of there!” Lol…

        I’ll be okay. I’m changing part of my perspective, which is what is in order. But I still have a form of hope, and I think talking to MP about this sometime could benefit me, as I need more clarity (poor MP is now like, “What? What is it I am doing?”😂)

        Anyway, thanks again, lisk. I’m not someone who needs a ton of support – but I do need an angel or two once in awhile, with a light & kind touch, which I can sometimes forget…so that I can be encouraged to keep going where it is that I know I need to go…and I’m blessed in receiving that.❤

        Now I’ll get off this thread. If anyone needs me, do come find me. May the pure of heart not lose heart…good things can come from struggles, of all sorts. I would know!😉

        1. lisk says:


          I appreciate your willingness to empathize. However, I am actually getting a lot out of this thread. Please note that you may be projecting the “angst” of it affecting me personally. I can understand that given the way a very few people have responded to me. While it is unpleasant, it does showcase their behavior so I am quite alright with that.

          Again, I wish you the best success in getting out of that environment so there is minimal to zero impact.

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Good deal, as I believe much of use can be taken from this thread. It’s really up to the individual, on the lessons/inspirations or challenges they see. And you’re right on, about me having “feels,” even if others aren’t weighed down by what I’m concerned about. What’s really unhelpful is if I do this with my nex…not IF…more like, how often? 🤔Somethin’ to ponder~thanks!


          2. lisk says:


            Ugh, I know that hashtag too well, Caroline-is-fine.

            I hope you enjoy the fineness of your Sunday!

  17. kel says:

    If HG does not tell a reader that they are a narcissist because there’s no use since their narcissism won’t allow them to accept it, then what does he tell them?

    Maybe he tells them whatever they want to hear that fits with their facade because that’s the only thing their narcissism will allow them to believe. Their presence here serves a purpose as they tend to want to reap the rewards of having a close association with HG, they will dote over him, kiss up, they carry out useful roles for him, and can actually be helpful commenters. Narc’s are always tipping either good or bad, useful or harmful.

    The blog is for the benefit of those who truly need it, empaths who have been victims of narcissists. HG’s blog is a godsend to us. He is very adept at handling us all, the empaths and the narcissists too. He seems to really dislike the goofy lessers that come on from time to time, so he lets it be a field day for the mid readers to have a food fight that day and enjoy themselves. They might misperceive a true empath who says anything that sounds negative as a food fight festival, but will grow bored when the empath responds with logic instead of buffoonery like a lesser would have. HG however will tell them this commenter is good and legit, but their narcissism wants to fight and so might not hear him. We are on here and in real life with narcissists, it’s a good lesson to use the things we’ve learned here to see the truth.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I’ll be direct. Are you including me in this group of mids you refer to as HG keeping for his own purposes here? I’m not angry, I just truly would like your honest opinion.

      1. kel says:

        If I was then that would be kind of a silly question to ask me considering, but honestly you’re a mystery to me- a big sis protective type and a rough-house too. I understand your asking because I notice you seem to question that a lot, like you’re not convinced about yourself and wondering. I wouldn’t presume to include anyone specifically.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Could a big sis with rough house also mean an empath with higher narc traits? I din’t actually question what I am but I understand others do and why. Thank you for your honest answer. I appreciate it.

          1. kel says:

            I don’t know.

          2. lisk says:


            Your response is most elegant.

          3. WokeAF says:

            NA what I only ever hear from you is LT

          4. Bibi says:

            LT? What is LT?

            No, I believe NA is an Ennea Type 8. Only she can confirm, however. But 8s have tough exteriors but are soft and mushy on the inside.

    2. FYC says:

      Kel, In the past, on more than one occasion, HG has stated that if someone takes the ED and is not an empath, he tells them they are not an empath.

      HG Tudor says:
      April 16, 2019 at 08:27
      I tell them they are not an empath and yes it has happened.

      1. K says:


      2. kel says:


        I didn’t say anything about the ED test.

        1. FYC says:

          Kel, I was referring to your comment:

          “If HG does not tell a reader that they are a narcissist because there’s no use since their narcissism won’t allow them to accept it, then what does he tell them? Maybe he tells them whatever they want to hear that fits with their facade because that’s the only thing their narcissism will allow them to believe.”

          Sorry, I figured you would get the inferred meaning, but I should have filled in the inferential leap: When HG has a narcissist take the ED, he does not tell them they are a narcissist, he tells them they are not an empath. I would imagine the same logic would carry for a reader. Further, I doubt HG needs any narcissist tertiary sources and I doubt he would pander to a narcissist unless it was to expose them.

          1. kel says:


            HG Liked my comment, “If HG does not tell a reader they are a narcissist, then what does he tell them?”

          2. MommyPino says:

            Hi Kel,

            You made very valid points and questions. I appreciate them very much.

            Lisk, I have read your kind comments. I will reply to them later but I had a headache attack so I’m taking a break for now. Maybe that’s why I’m not a SE beyI just don’t have the stamina for this. I also have a five year old and a two year old who treats me like she cuts my paycheck.

            HG, if one of us takes an Empath Detector test and the result is a narcissist and then we come back to the blog and lie and say that our ED result is that we are an empath, would you be able to say in retort that we are lying or would you not be able to because of the confidentiality agreement?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I ordinarily follow the confidentiality provisions, however, on case by case basis ascertaining the relevant facts and merits, I may form the view that such an act would breach the confidentiality provisions and therefore I would be freed from maintaining the duty of confidence.

          4. MommyPino says:

            Thank you for your answer HG! I’m glad to know that there is a safety precaution or course of action if something like that happens.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I ensure this is a safe environment. Some of you fail to maintain this through off blog contact contrary to warning. That’s on you.

          6. MommyPino says:

            I understand HG and thank you for the safety protocols. I’m much more careful now. This has been the first blog that I have ever participated in that is not a Facebook group. I now realize the possible repercussions that could arise from being careless.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            It’s more than being careless. It’s an act of commission and not one that would be done if people listened.

          8. MommyPino says:

            I didn’t see it that way but you’re absolutely right HG.

          9. FYC says:

            Kel: I cannot see or use likes so I would not know that. Thanks for sharing. If HG’s “like” of your comment is a tacit approval of your comment in whole, then you would be correct, and his statement regarding the ED and what he says to narcissists who take the test does not follow over to blog commenters. Good to know.

            In your same comment HG “liked” you state:
            “Their presence here serves a purpose as they tend to want to reap the rewards of having a close association with HG, they will dote over him, kiss up, they carry out useful roles for him, and can actually be helpful commenters.”

            If HG approved that statement, I am genuinely surprised. There are so many people on the blog, myself included, who have said flattering things or performed useful tasks in support of HG out of genuine gratitude, because we have endured a lifetime of abuse by narcissists and finally found the help we needed. Who would have guessed that HG was lying to us all this time by calling us empaths when we are really all narcissists? Good to know. Seems rather cowardly all of that would surface from you outing HG’s “like”. He alway struck me as someone more than capable of speaking for himself.

          10. lisk says:


            You “doubt he would pander to a narcissist unless it was to expose them.”

            I doubt that, too.

      3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: You mentioned to MommyPino that meeting up with possible Narcissists and all is an act of commission, if I understand correctly. I do not understand. I looked up what is meant by an act of commission and I could not make out the various definitions and so I could not apply it here. Will you break it down for me what you are saying?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No PSE, I am referring to the fact that I repeatedly explain to people that they should not communicate and interact with people from the blog, away from the blog, for a variety of reasons which I have repeatedly explained.

          I was making the point to MP that communicating with someone off blog is not a careless act, it is one of commission, namely you have either purposefully contacted someone or someone has contacted you and you have responded to it and thereafter escalated the level of communication, for instance, swapping telephone numbers.

          It is not a careless act. It was not “whoops, I have sent a direct message to XYZ because my fingers slipped. ” It was a purposeful and deliberate act designed to establish contact and therefore is an act of commission.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Correct HG and I’ve never been in contact with a narcissist off blog—(I was on Facebook from a FB site) that’s not the point as non-narcissists fall out. Perceived slights, hurt feelings, different perspectives, the inability or discomfort to post what you want.. The problem is often a lack of critical thinking capacity upon arrival which impacts decisions made. It’s also a rather unique venue so when very vulnerable (often upon arrival) a choice to connect overrides sensibilities. I have no issue with anyone on this blog truly— while on this blog and no I don’t think anyone here is a narcissist with whom dynamics have been tense. I can’t paint everyone a narcissist because we don’t see eye to eye or have a grievance. That is ridiculous.

          2. Mercy says:

            I thought we get the boot if that happens. That alone is enough for me to not even consider it

          3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Thank you, HG: Wow. Act of Commission: does have a strong sound to it, and therefore the phrase caught my curiosity. So, it is a deliberate and aware and purposeful and premeditated action. I fully have noticed that you clearly and adamantly do not promote this type and sort of thing, of people contacting each other and even meeting up, away from your site, which is a moderated site of knowlege about Human Behavior and specifically Narcissism. And specifically NOT a `greet to meet` type of site. You are so right: I know for a fact that even dating sites that are purposely set up for and actually promote people to meet in their business model, have been successfully sued when bad things happen, when people contact each other and/or meet and become victims of physical and financial and sexual and emotional and psychological and other types of abuse. They are responsible for what they are promoting. And even though the dating sites have to set up their sites on the record as dating sites, by way of law, for people to contact and meet each other, and even thought the dating sites formally register their sites that way and then take on various types of insurance policies from insurance companies and supposedly screen people, and perform various degrees of screening with feedback, still so much bad stuff goes wrong when people do contact each other. People still will do what they want and like you say, you can not legally force them not to, and so now I understand completely why you do not promote contacting and/or meeting, and that you do caution us and warn us so strongly to keep communication safely on-site, and if we ignore your warnings, we are deliberately participating in an: Act Of Commission. Thanks.

    3. kel says:

      I prefer this site when HG is running it.

      1. lisk says:

        But he *is* running the site alway, kel.

        I guess he’s choosing to run it this way, for now.

        1. kel says:


          I prefer this site when HG is commenting on it. I just peeked in to see if he was back, and will come back when he does.

          1. lisk says:

            That makes sense to me, kel.

            I actually am appreciating the fact that he is not here commenting at the moment. It fascinates me how some require his validation of their own thoughts.

            It is a good lesson for me about people in general.

    4. MommyPino says:

      Kel I have to say you really have a way with putting words together so elegantly. You paint really good pictures in your posts. It’s like watching synchronized swimming.

      1. kel says:

        Wow Mommypino! Thank you very much. I was honestly just admiring your posts farther down this thread and how well you detail the points you make. Your writing is very honest, and you’re a very considerate person.

        1. MommyPino says:

          Thank you so much too Kel!! I appreciate your kind words to me and your honesty in this thread. You are a class act!

  18. NarcAngel says:

    Is it any wonder why HG says he’s fine the way he is and there is no reason to change? People tell him all the time that he’s missing out. WTAF? Missing what? This? He must be laughing his balls off looking in this little petri dish. I just laughed out loud myself.

    1. Desirée says:

      I remember HG once likened it to scientists observing rats in a maze and I thought that was hilarious although others did seem quite offended. This thread reads itself like a long game of “pin the tail on the donkey” (…pin the tale on the narcy?).

    2. Violetta says:

      Toldja. The Brawling Brides in Manos: The Hands of Fate.

      1. Bibi says:

        What a film! I think the guy who directed that did so on a bet. Literally, I think someone said, ‘I’ll bet you can’t direct a film’ and that guy said, ‘I’ll bet you I can.’

        So he did. Thus results that borefest. Even the title is redundant. It basically says, ‘Hands: The Hands of Fate.’

        1. Violetta says:

          Watchable only on MST3K.

        2. Desirée says:

          “Hands: The Hands of Fate” should be the title of my memoirs! More inspirational words have never been scribbled! On a paperback cover with two left hands.

    3. jessrnny says:

      Thank you for saying this NA. I’m always thinking it. It’s in their nature to help but they harp about improvement… look around. HG is winning. I feel these people miss the point of the blog. The narcissist won’t change but we can.

      There is an article HG wrote about the different types of commenters on the blog. Entertaining.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Haha, yes, I think the article is Come One Come All?
        There have been a few offers of suggestions for new additions over the years.

    4. Bibi says:

      I think he is likely in a coma by now, due to boredom on this thread. Not sure what everyone is even arguing about anymore. Oh well. Did anyone actually comment about the article?

      1. lisk says:

        Yes, Bibi, a few did comment about the actual article.

      2. lisk says:

        My guess is that HG is hanging with SM or doing some other important work, and that he reads/approves comments while he’s on the loo.

    5. NotMe! says:

      My N-ex once said ‘give me a hand to get out of this hole’ when he had talked himself round in circles. I thought at the time that it was a moment of insight for him. I know now, of course that it was a pity play and re-setting. There have been quite a few ladders put into this particular hole, but instead of climbing up them, folks keep chopping them up and making camp fires out of them

    6. Caroline-is-fine says:

      Of course HG says he’s fine the way he is. HG is disordered. Due to his lack of real empathy, he has (and continues to) inflict a great deal of abuse on others. Besides adhering to the rules of this site (it’s HG’s blog rules), it doesn’t concern me what HG thinks about how empaths behave. Do I care that he sees we’re not perfect and mess up? No. Do I care that he sees how messy things can get when you have a larger array of emotions? No. I’m grateful to be able to feel empathy and not methodically, maliciously hurt others, with no guilt to boot.

      I’m also grateful to have a true self, which I can feel — and all the good intentions (and actual good) that comes from that — for myself & for others. As empaths, we can decide to live fully & freely — in a way a narcissist cannot. A narcissist is a slave to getting their fuel, without guilt to who gets hurt in the process. Of course, it is also true I think/feel like an Empath, as that’s how I’m wired; but logically speaking, I think a strong case can be made that it’s in our *personal freedom* where we can lay claim to what is the truly good, freeing thing (empathy), which can never be taken away by complicated, messy, or less-than-stellar behavior. So in this way, empaths & normals have been granted the good thing of complete freedom, to consider & choose & change as necessary, with their whole self intact; and their ability to empathize, perhaps ironically, is key to this wonderful freedom. Bottom line: Narcissists have an inner void (not Empaths/normals) & also less real choice/freedom in how they behave (not Empaths/normals).

      Although empaths are certainly not saints & only human (flawed) and possess big, deep & wide emotions that can make things messy at times, we do not have that need for fuel & a lack of empathy that drives us to resort to abuse, which is the crux of why “how a known narcissist views an empath” is a non-issue for me.

      HG only knows how to be a narcissist & is not equipped otherwise, so of course he won’t feel led to change his ways, nor will he be swayed by our behavior — good or bad — uplifting or discouraging.

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        This post of mine (Nov. 23/12:30) is in reply to NA’s Nov. 22 (21.44) post.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I don’t care what HG thinks of empaths either. I was saying that from HIS point of view and not ours, this must reinforce what he always says – which is that he sees no reason to change. I didn’t say he shouldn’t consider changing – I’m saying that dealing with these types of scenarios due to empath emotion would not appeal to him or be a draw for him. Some here have admitted that they feel it a curse themselves to be burdened with emotion, although at the end of the day I don’t really think they would want to be without them because they would have a comparative and want to experience all of the good emotion that they feel makes having the bad ones worth it. A narcissist has no such comparative.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Got it, NA~thank you for clarifying!

  19. NarcAngel says:

    This thread has become a colossal bore. Great for the numbers though. Carry on.

    1. Violetta says:

      It seems unseemly that comments here might have exceeded “Put a sex on you.”

      I mean, priorities, you know.

      1. Mercy says:

        Violetta, don’t forget sex was the topic of conversation when this all started. See what happens at the thought of no sex for 24 months? Haha claws come out and bitches be fighting 🤣

        1. WokeAF says:

          excellent 😆

        2. lisk says:

          Correction: the topic of conversation when this all started was about Cyn commendably noticing red flags and subsequently losing a narc before anything really got off the ground with him.

          It was Lorelei who brought sex–or her lack thereof–into it.

          The response immediately struck me as unempathetic and attention-seeking, much before FM1T said anything about Lorelei being a drama queen and before Julie ever mentioned anything about Lorelei’s narcissism. That’s why I remember it.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Lisk–I find doubt that perhaps I will be able to illustrate the hind story that appeared/appears unempathetic/attention seeking. The lack of sex. There was never a lack of a sex per se (well actually yes there was–but it wasn’t a horrible problem) or an addiction to sex issue. I also don’t expect any nod of getting what I’m saying, although I feel it is appropriate to mention the background. It is quite common that after the maelstrom (true for me at least) that dating is totally off the table. For reasonable and substantial reasons. There is too much to lose when not knowing what a truly emotionally prosperous situation looks like/feels like/just is. It has been a conversation with friends trying to entice me to date and I’ve been (mostly) steadfast in my resolve not to do so. Why? Because I attract narcissists and vice versa. Dating is an exceedingly disturbing proposition to even try. The jibe re, 24 months was because my separation does harbor on 2 years. It was a poorly contrived comment clearly. I still haven’t really dated because I dread the thought. I can’t fathom any expectations with anyone. I abhor the thought of having another partner after the last debacle. So, 2 years may turn into 10 for all I know in regard to a committed relationship. Therefore, despite my antics and whatever else there is not a genuine lack of empathy for anyone. In fact, it is arguable that I have empathy for who I don’t date because I am not ready to be a consistent person for anyone. It is common conversation on here though–that many of us are frustrated by a lack of sex. Thank you for understanding my need to clarify by reading this.

          2. lisk says:


            The only reason your original comment struck me so strongly, and the reason I found it so out of place, is because it was in response to a person who had been considering dating, made the effort to share her story here, and seemed to deserve acknowledgement of the fact that her discernment and choices were allowing her to make some headway in terms of romantic life, i.e., Cyn was at least *not* going to be getting involved with a narcissist and would be holding out for better.

            Certainly, I now understand that your intent was to joke, and I believe Cyn even took it that way; however, at the time, for this reader (if not others), your comment didn’t seem to connect. And then, most of the rest of the “banter,” even before Julie stepped in, seemed to be mostly about your reply and/or you.

            That said, that was all I cared about in that moment and really all I have cared about during the whole thread. While I am sure others are interested and can relate to whatever you have written in your current comment, I have chosen not to read about Lorelei today.

        3. Violetta says:

          Calonice: “Give up penises?!! There is nothing, Lysistrata, like a dick.”

    2. Alright, I’ve been lurking and reading this shitfest of a thread for days now.

      I’m a noob. Only been here for maybe a week & a half.

      I don’t know Lorelai nor any of the rest of y’all, so I’m not playing favorites.

      So an impartial spectator, I have this to offer:

      Julie, if you don’t like the the way someone behaves, you’ve got a few choices…
      A) ignore her
      B) message her and politely ask her to tone down her “offensive” comments
      C) don’t read / participate.

      Did you notice the one notable option that is missing here?
      Yep. “Melodramatically insist that Lorelai is a narcissist” did NOT make the list.

      And why not?

      Because was a crappy decision that was bound to fail.

      Just what were you hoping to achieve? Did you hit the mark?
      I’m going to guess the answer to that is, “no.”

      You haven’t changed Lorelai because only Lorelai can do that.

      The only person you have any control over, the only one that you can change is YOU.

      So the next time you’re faced with a similar dilemma, I do hope you’ll try one of the other options I listed instead of the one you did chose.

      Because, damn, girl. You won nothing… Not even a participation ribbon. Quit while you’re behind.

      1. Julie Petkovska says:

        I think your post says more about you, then it does me.
        But thanks for the feedback

        1. I’m sure your response sounded a lot better in your head than it reads in print.

          Because, as a matter of fact, my comments DO say a lot about who I am.

          It says that I know how to deal with interpersonal problems and I’m encouraging you to think rationally before expressing yourself.

          Nothing I said was unduly harsh, and I offered you legitimately constructive feedback.

          I hope you’ll give some serious consideration to what I’ve said and quit while you’re behind.
          With every subsequent remark you make, you’re just making yourself look worse and worse.

          Let it go, walk away.
          Then own up to, and learn from, the mistakes you made here. And quit making more.

          1. Julie Petkovska says:

            Thanks again for you feedback, enjoy day 🙂

      2. WhoCares says:


        I’m glad to see your post and hoping all that not all noobs* are put off by the confrontational labelling, which isn’t (and, hopefully, not ever going to be) the norm here.

        *Wow, glad I reread that; my phone wanted to autocorrect it to ‘boobs’

        1. Mercy says:

          Haha Whocares I wanted to look up noobs on my computer at work then thought better of it. I was afraid it would set off bells and whistles in the IT department.

          1. WhoCares says:

            Lol, Mercy – probably the safest call.

        2. Awww thanks, Whocares…
          “Noobs”, “boobs” potato/ potahto
          Whatever works

          1. WhoCares says:

            ““Noobs”, “boobs” potato/ potahto
            Whatever works”

            Glad you’re easy-going, nightstandsecrets – it’s tense in here…thanks for the giggle!

          2. Bibi says:

            I thought Noob meant someone who is a boob crossed with a Knob, as in knobhead.

          3. The “kids” used “noob” as a play on the word “newby”
            It probably stuck because it sounds so much like “boob” tho.

    3. lisk says:

      Yes, it’s almost all about Lorelei . . . Brava! to her!

      I suspect Julie is enjoying her Friday evening, having had her case rested for her.

      1. WokeAF says:


        1. WokeAF says:

          Oops I dropped that BOUNCE in the wrong spot. Ignore

      2. WokeAF says:

        Lorelei didn’t ask for this.

        JULIE made it about Lorelei
        And then it became about JULIE.

        1. lisk says:

          No, Lorelei made it about Lorelei.

          Lorelei *always* makes it about Lorelei (until she’s called out on it and then she behaves appropriately for a split-split second . . . hmmm, reminds me of a certain narc I used to know).

          The evidence is there. All one has to do is read.

          1. WhoCares says:

            lisk – Lorelei had an Empath Detector done…”Standard” empath, with a hybrid of cadres.

          2. lisk says:


            Thank you for sharing that.

            Now I know exactly what I do not agree with.

          3. WhoCares says:


            “Now I know exactly what I do not agree with.”

            I would be interested in hearing a more direct response, because I can’t read minds and I actually value your input because I know you to be a considerate, constructive contributor who had been here a while.

            I re-shared what had been reported by Lorelei in her ED because I thought that Julie’s evidence for backing her claim that she “faked” her results was pretty weak. (Yes, needless to say that I do put much stock in HG’s accuracy – if that wasn’t already clear.)

          4. MommyPino says:

            WhoCares, I asked K the same question, have sent you the link. Why doesn’t she accept HG’s analysis that I am an empath? I didn’t get a response from her so I moved on. Why do we have to force lisk and Julie to accept Lorelei’s ED results? Aren’t they entitled to the same rights as K to hold and keep their own opinions?

          5. WhoCares says:


            “Why do we have to force lisk and Julie to accept Lorelei’s ED results?”

            My intent isn’t to force anyone to accept anyone’s results. (lisk has already stated her perspective on that issue). My issue is that I do not believe that the “factual” evidence is all that factual in Julie’s perspective on Lorelei – I am just trying to see what lisk sees in these claims. Or to at least examine “the evidence” further.
            Sorry, Mommypino, I won’t engage in comparing threads. Both are fairly convoluted on their own – tying them to together makes it… unhelpful.

        2. lisk says:

          P.S. Notice who made it about Julie–certainly not Julie!

        3. WhoCares says:

          WokeAF – now, that *is* factual.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Hi WhoCares, WokeAF and PSE,

            I have read your responses to me. I don’t think that Julie is a narcissist and when I saw NA’s post demanding an apology from Julie and seeing the mob insinuating that she is a narcissist, I thought that this is all ridiculous. My point is that K has engaged in worse behaviors and showed zero empathy towards some commenters and yet nobody puts her on trial the same way that Julie is put on trial.

            I don’t believe that Julie is a narcissist just because you cannot convince her that Lorelei is an empath or you cannot make her apologize. I believe that with so many commenters that poked fun of her and directly and indirectly called her a narcissist, the armor is up so I thought to comment to NA that calling Julie to apologize is pointless just like calling K to apologize is pointless. Why am I expected to move on about my experience from K (which I have moved on by the way) but you are all here so stuck on proving the Julie is a narcissist or that she should apologize? I don’t necessarily believe that K is a narcissist but I believe that I will never get an apology from her and I’m totally ok with that. But why is there a trial against Julie?

            By the way, forget about the Ed thread. I have the Bare Necessities thread and the Audio Consultation thread links here so that anyone here who wants to hone their skills in dissecting or analyzing narcissistic behaviors can practice on K as well! Plenty of materials there! K gaslighted empath007 and issued the twin line of defense (blame shifting). On the Audio Consultation thread K did the “bouncing robotic responses to my questions which are logical and similar to NA’s questions to Julie. So yes, from my experience empaths can also bounce if they have their armors up. In fairness to Julie, she has been addressing everyone’s questions like a real person and does not go on a robotic mode.

            The eruption:

            K says:
            October 3, 2019 at 11:27
            That’s your evidence?! Pathetic.

            Fact: HG did NOT call you or empaths idiot(s).

            You claim to have a strong moral code, yet you have continued to lie repeatedly throughout your comments about HG calling you an idiot.

            Your hypocrisy and contradictory behaviour is stunning. You are a liar, and you continue to be misled by your emotional thinking and that makes you an idiot.

            I read the comment to Jaya and it does not state: empath 007 is an idiot.

            Google integrity and read about it because you have none.

            The gaslighting:

            K says:
            October 3, 2019 at 21:57
            I did not explode and I do not dislike you, that’s your ET at work.

            It’s all very matter-of fact; you repeatedly made inaccurate statements and I pointed it out. Irrespective of how you feel about it, facts are facts and, rather than take responsibility for your behaviour, you chose to continue to defend those inaccurate statements and cast yourself as the victim.

            This isn’t personal; it’s about clarity. You accused HG of something he didn’t do, which leads me to question your strong moral code. Your behavior belies your morality and that is confusing to the reader.


            Or the Audio Consultation thread where everything that I said and asked K “bounced” and she went on robotic answering machine mode talking to the magical readers?

            MommyPino says:
            October 23, 2019 at 18:41
            K, as promised, I will give you an honest reason why I made that comment which you call as my ‘malign hoover’.

            I disagree with your series of behaviors on the blog where you inaccurately and unfairly dissect a commenter’s behavior or cite their actions and attach a narcissistic manipulation to that action when you disagree or dislike that commenter in order to paint that commenter as a narcissist. You didn’t only do that to Esther, you have done that to me and to Empath007 as well. I was in the receiving end of your behavior once, you falsely accused me of manipulative behaviors such as lying and manipulating someone which God knows I never did. I’m not saying that I never lie but in that thread I did NOT lie or manipulate anybody. You did the same thing with Empath007. You never apologized to any of that, instead you gaslighted her and you blame shifted me that I engineered my own Victimhood. On both occasions, both Empath007 and myself were going through something. I lost my mom just a few days before we had the debacle. Empath007 just found out that someone that she thought was a decent person abused little kids. And yet you ran with judgment against us. I disagree with your behavior in your post that I made a comment because it was vicious against someone that you don’t know. You don’t have any evidence that Esther was lying about having a bipolar dad or that she wasn’t having a tough time or going through something. You simply do not know her enough.

            Why isn’t it enough to just disagree? Foolme1time did a great job without being vicious to Esther. Why is there a need to go for the jugular?

            K’s bouncing robotic response:

            K says:
            October 24, 2019 at 15:55
            Recognize gas lighting when you see it.

            Narcissists are projectors and will accuse you of behaviors that they themselves engage in because they reject culpability and ignore their contribution to the situation by insisting that someone else is to blame.

            Narcissists rewrite the narrative by inserting themselves into the situation and casting themselves as the victim, as well as, arguing in bad faith, twisting the truth and mischaracterizing others to distort the truth and cause the victim to question their reality. They will smear the victim by throwing in additional story lines to distract from their behavior.

            Narcissists will also tell you how you think or feel or what you need or want. That is verbal abuse AND gas lighting, recognize it.

            Narcissists are prone to delusional thinking and the two most common types of delusions are delusions of grandeur or persecutory delusions, for example, they will accuse you of stalking them when there is no evidence to support the accusation.

            Narcissists will wear The Victim’s Cloak and then demand apologies from the True Victims for perceived attacks and that is gas lighting’; recognize it.

            Due to the altered perspectives, facts are challenge fuel which makes the narcissist feel a lack of control and results in a manipulative response.

            I see a malign hoover: split thinking, projection, lies, pity plays, gas lighting, triangulation, playing the victim, hypocritical and contradictory behavior, facade maintenance (whiter than white behavior) and blame shifting (no surprise there).

            I asked the same questions that NA was asking Julie:

            MommyPino says:
            October 24, 2019 at 19:56
            K, I will be sending you a few questions but here’s the first one:

            1. Do you believe that HG was inaccurate or made a mistake when he figured out from my Empath Detector that I’m not a narcissist?

            MommyPino says:
            October 24, 2019 at 22:58

            2. Who were the two narcissists that you were implying in thy w Bare Necessity thread?

            NarcAngel says:
            October 4, 2019 at 14:21
            Do you see the differing responses to this thread (good/bad/idiocy) as being affected by the types (schools and cadres) of empaths involved? That was one of my thoughts.

            K says:
            October 6, 2019 at 09:00
            Based on their comments, one is a MMRN and the other is a LMRN or ULN.


            MommyPino says:
            October 25, 2019 at 05:04
            3. If you weren’t stalking my comments, how did you come up with those two separate comments that I have made from separate threads and matched them together with what you (incorrectly) thought was an inconsistency? I remember you told a commenter that you keep apple notes on comments and they are even alphabetized with titles. Do you then keep notes on my comments that you think are inconsistent? Are you on some type of narcissist witch hunt here? Are you spending all of that time and effort to have control?

            4. And lastly, why is it that you have zero empathy for me, WokeAF, empath007 and Esther? What did we do to anyone to not deserve any grace from you? How come you were not able to give us the benefit of the doubt when we explained ourselves that we were not being manipulative (not it the case of WokeAF, you did not accuse her of being manipulative). Why are you above saying sorry for hurting our feelings? I don’t get it.

            My last remark would be regarding my first question. I find it interesting that you declare your belief in HG and yet you disbelieve his assessment of me as an empath. It is actually a big inconsistency itself. If you really support him as much as you say here on the blog then you should be able to humble yourself enough to defer to his expertise. There’s a reason why we all hire him to do detectors and not you. Because he is the expert. He knows what he’s doing. What are you going to do when another commenter here that you accused of being a narcissist gets an Empath Detector and results to being an empath? The fact that you have known for a while now about my Empath Detector results and you still insinuate that I’m a narcissist show that you could care less about the truth and about accuracy. I am not demanding an apology from you but I want to take note of your inability to do so and your tendency to gaslight and blame shift in order to avoid issuing anything close to an apology. You will most likely deflect, avoid or blame shift once again. I don’t care. I have said my piece. And thank HG for allowing me to do so.

            K says:
            October 25, 2019 at 13:06
            Dear Reader,
            You may find these articles very helpful. I did.


          2. NarcAngel says:

            Here we go. Determined to make this thread about her as well.

          3. K says:


          4. K says:

            It’s very telling when individuals insert themselves into the narrative and then proceed to cast themselves as the victim.

          5. MommyPino says:

            Bounce!! I just wanted to try it too.

          6. K says:

            HG Tudor
            MARCH 7, 2019 AT 09:36
            Understandable observation WN. It has to be our way and of course that will invariably appear ridiculously awkward and laborious from your point of view.

            The operative phrase is: ridiculously awkward and laborious from your point of view.

          7. WhoCares says:


            When I used the adjective “horrific” in reference to the Ed Thread, it was directed at the behaviors of all three of you at one point in those interactions (horror, disbelief & shock were felt on my part – to be truthful) but I’m not going back there. I am also not joining the “you should apologize” debate here or in past discussion. I wasn’t advocating apologies then and I am not now. When I see an anomaly in someone’s behaviour I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and believe there is a reason behind it.
            I am actually still here, in this thread, because I am trying to understand the behaviour of truth-seekers – which is almost as enlightening as learning about narcissists.

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Bingo! The Truth Seeking.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            To no one in particular:
            I find it interesting that people use words like bloodbath, fights, brawls etc to describe threads like this. That is emotional thinking and projecting feelings onto others. There is no frothing at the mouth or things being broken. I can assure you I am quite calm sitting here with my coffee and sweet potato. It is merely a discussion and exchange of information to me. I am not angry at all.

          10. K says:

            I am calmly eating popcorn while trying to wade through all the bullshit.


          11. NarcAngel says:

            I am currently evaluating whether ot not I’be been punked by HG. If I might not be the Super Empath he confirmed me as, but rather a Mid he keeps around for hid own amusement. Hmmm.

          12. K says:

            Ha ha ha…it’s like a trip down the rabbit hole! Who’s who?!?

            NarcAngel got gas lighted in the conservatory. it’s a mystery.

          13. WhoCares says:

            I agree with you NA on how chosen words can effect perspective due to emotional thinking but that it how I viewed that past discussion – at the time. I don’t feel the same here, which is why I am discussing – or attempting to have straightforward discussion with a few…it is getting hijacked by heated emotional thinking.

            How’s the sweet potato?
            I’m thinking of making some lentil stew later…

          14. K says:

            These articles are very helpful. Invalidation* is gas lighting; recognize it when you see it.


            Google definition:
            Emotional invalidation is when a person’s thoughts and feelings are rejected, ignored, or judged. Invalidation is emotionally upsetting for anyone, but particularly hurtful for someone who is emotionally sensitive.

          15. MommyPino says:

            WhoCares, I was right then. You would pretend that you didn’t see. I didn’t give you anything from the Ed Thread, I gave you the narcissistic behaviors of K towards the empath007 in the Bare Necessities thread and towards me and Esther on the Audio Consultation thread. Thank you for proving my point about the clique. By the way, I owned up to my horrible behavior and apologized. Look it up at the Ed thread. K has no strength or courage to admit to her part and has never apologized. I highly doubt that people here are truth seekers. That is why I challenged it by showing an inconvenient truth. And I was right. Truth doesn’t matter if it doesn’t benefit the clique.

          16. WhoCares says:


            “WhoCares, I was right then. You would pretend that you didn’t see.”

            To use my uninvolvement in one situation compared to my involvement in an earlier situation as proof that I am pretending not to see the first situation and that I condone the behaviour that occured during it is faulty. And truthfully, I stopped reading your comment when you started quoting other threads – because this one is already a headache to wade through and I have no interest in dredging up the past – so I really don’t know what evidence you shared there.
            I have already stated the reasons for my non-involvement in the issues Ed Thread and I am not revisiting it
            Since we are all (mostly) Truth-seekers, I will add some further truth to explain:
            Truth: When the Big Little Lies posts came out I was staying at a women’s shelter (due to the fallout of leaving my entanglement). I was happy to have something to watch at night (once my son fell asleep) that was *not* a kid’s movie and made me feel part of Narcsite and in touch with some of the people here. I commented some and gave my 2 cents on Ed being a “normal” but could not really invest my self in analyzing the rest of the characters. I just didn’t want to feel left out of the discussion and it kept my mind off other things. Then the Ed Thread became a place that wasn’t pleasant to be in and I just couldn’t follow the back and forth (yes I commented some and laughed and was happy for that “normalcy” with the very real backdrop of having to secure a place to live – which is partly why I value banter here; since it is a place to come and feel normal when the rest of your life is anything but normal).

            I haven’t been able to follow all the discussion here on Narcsite since then because I’ve opted not to get internet service in my new home (choosing to rely on my cellphone plan data) so I can put those funds towards other things. The only reason that I was here commenting around the time of the Odd Thread is because I had recently checked in to report on a certain outcome in my (very lengthy and challenging) legal proceedings with my ex. I wanted to express my gratitude for my learning here and how that contributed to the positive outcome – plus, I knew some individuals who know my story might like to hear it.
            Then I got caught up in the Odd Thread because it made me very sad to think that there could be a repeat of the Ed Thread and I was honestly thinking: ‘new people are going to think this is a place where everyone gets accused of being a narcissist’ – whether or not someone feels those words are an exaggeration – I don’t care. I value this place and hate seeing those kinds of conflict. I was not grouping together with anyone, I was using my brain when I challenged Julie’s logic and she couldn’t defend her statements. The only thing I “attacked” was her logic. She isn’t accountable to anyone – but if she is going to voice her accusations against someone and label them based on what she perceives as “factual” then she should be able to stand up and support that viewpoint with real evidence. I pointed out some of the holes in her reasoning as an example for new people, hoping they wouldn’t simply except the opinion of long-standing commenters and actually *look* at the evidence presented.
            I could only do that, in this particular discussion because I was able to follow most of it and had the presence of mind to engage (since I now have reduced emotional thinking and I am in a new residence and enjoying some stability).
            And it bears pointing out that levity and banter here are not just shallow silliness but sometimes the expression of someone wanting to feel normal and connected when the rest of their life is a ball of stress. They just don’t feel like making that fact known.
            Mommypino – I also agree with Mercy and her point that perhaps the parties at the center of conflict in the Ed Thread are all well-liked, that people don’t want to take sides and feel that you are adults who should be able to work it out. And I will add – if a satisfactory resolution cannot be found – no one can force that.

            Hopefully that didn’t read as a sob story novella. I only shared the backstory on my uninvolvement at times because it’s, lately, due to practical matters not because of a clique or pretending something did not occur.
            I likely won’t be opening this thread any more because when it loads it is a real data drain!

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated Who Cares.

          18. WhoCares says:


          19. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WhoCares for your response. I was unaware of your situation. I am glad that it has gotten better and more stable. I remember you talking about finding a place to move. I apologize if my comments have caused you to share something that you may not be that comfortable sharing or is struggling to deal with. I am glad that you find a sanctuary here with us and I want you to know that your kindness has been a sanctuary for many including me as well. Like I told Mercy, I am ready to move forward. I don’t have the desire to bring this up anymore unless I have to use it to defend myself. I believe that I have laid it all out already and people can look at it if they want or not. And HG has allowed my posts to go through as well which I am thankful for. I have no beef with anyone, honestly not even K. I was just pointing out what I have seen and experienced and I really believe that it was relevant because I was pointing out a pattern which I believe needed to be addressed. Others may disagree and I understand that and totally accept it. Thank you again for your thoughtful response and I apologize if my earlier comments were hurtful to you.

          20. WhoCares says:


            It is fine, I didn’t have to share that but I chose to in order to illustrate that sometimes people’s behaviour has another explanation. My situation is much improved now indeed.
            I like your choice of the word “sanctuary” to describe this place.

          21. MommyPino says:

            I’m happy that your situation has improved WhoCares. And I hope that it keeps getting better for you next year. I hope that you have a wonderful Christmas.

          22. WhoCares says:

            MP, For the first time in 3 years, I may actually have something to celebrate in the New Year!
            I hope you have a lovely Christmas and that 2020 is good to you.

          23. MommyPino says:

            I’m very happy to hear that WhoCares. I have read somewhere that you went through this difficulty as a result of your most recent disengagement. I have to commend you for your bravery and doing what is best for you. ❤️

          24. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you MommyPino.

          25. K says:

            HG Tudor
            DECEMBER 18, 2018 AT 18:17
            Well those who make the demands aren’t empaths.

          26. NarcAngel says:

            I demanded an apology from Julie? And you accuse me of rewriting history?

  20. kel says:

    Every time the term ‘super empath’ is mentioned, a certificate comes out and gets waived like a flag by a card-carrying certified se saying Me, me, me, not you, while humbly stating No, really, I’m not more special, just because this is the rarest of them all, and I have special high narcissistic traits. By the common definition se sounds as if they are one foot outside of being a narcissist- but, wrong, not so – they are one step from being a normal. A normal living with a narcissist will get depressed, their happiness will dull down to a numbness. They are not emotional like empaths who will look crazy wearing their unhappiness on their sleeves.

    I am not a narcissist and I refuse to be compartmentalized. When I first knew my narcissist when the very beginning of deval was starting, he tried to describe me as who I was so he could tuck me away in his organized little box. But I said, What? What are you doing? Are you pigeonholing me? No, no, no, you are not going to do that to me. That is not who I am, and you’re not going to put me there. I am gray, black and white, blue, yellow, and chocolate, red, blue, and white. I will not be a round peg set in an uncomfortable square hole where I do not belong. I’ve had too many people in my life try to control me and I will not have it anymore. I am an empath period end. Congrats to any se, you’re so close to being normal.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I understand your comment an have felt that was as well. If you are referring to what I wrote, it was because previous to my comment someone said they “identified” with being an S.E while making incorrect accusations about others. I was explaining that adopting the title of S.E is not an excuse for bad behaviour. That they may have a different composition of traits, but that in the end they are still an empath and will show (at some point) those empathic traits – not just rail on and provoke with grandiosity and superiority. I don’t take being called next to normal as an insult.

      1. kel says:

        Thank you for clarifying your previous comment, and I’m glad being almost normal is not offensive.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Btw – I believe The Contagion is rarest and I certainly don’t envy them.

      1. windstorm says:

        As well you shouldn’t envy the contagions! We are the rarest and that’s probably a good thing. Being a contagion is a mighty hard row to hoe!

        I just happened across this article and was blown away to see there were over 1000 comments!! I started reading just to see what was going on, but I’ve been 40 minutes n still can’t figure it out! Seems like it’s dying down now though.

        Happy Thanksgiving to all. Miss you and all the other familiar names. Glad to see you’re all still alive and kicking! ❤️

        1. WhoCares says:

          Windstorm! 💜

          We need your logical voice here …I know, I know; not a good thread for a Contagion.
          But still so nice to you pop in.
          Happy Thanksgiving!

          1. Kim e says:

            WhoCares. WOW you just caused me to have a lightbulb moment. I just commented that I am part Contagion and that it is just who I am. But your comment about this not being a nice thread for a contagion made me realize a lot of things about me. Answers why I could not read this thread. I was ok until I saw Julie’s name and then I had to leave. All the cruel things said in the heat of the moment. It also answers why sometimes when I am watching something on tv, I can’t bear to keep watching because I know what they are feeling.
            Thank you. I actually feel like I have learned a lot about myself.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Kim e,
            Well, if my comment triggered some self insight for you – as a result of windstorm’s visit – I’m glad something good came of this thread!

          3. Bibi says:

            Hey Windstorm!

            Good seeing you. I too had trouble reading this thread. I have suspected that I am contagion, but I don’t know enough about it to be sure, but what you say with regards to social situations being stressful is spot on with regards to me.

        2. Kim e says:

          windstorm and NA. I am 17% contagion. Mostly standard but contagion is second. Not sure if it is good or bad because in my world it is just who I am. Just interesting that you commented that it sounds like an awful thing to be. I didn’t take it personal, just found it interesting

          1. windstorm says:

            Kim e
            I certainly didn’t mean to disparage anyone with contagion leanings. It is just who I am also. But I have found it to be a lifelong burden to be constantly bombarded by all the emotions around me. This has made all social interactions stressful and difficult for me. I’m very glad you have not experienced this.

          2. Kim e says:

            Up until the moment when I read your comment it never dawned on me why there were times I was very uncomforatbale in situations where others were very emotional…whether it was happy emotions or sad emotions. It was like I was on over laod and had to leave the situation, turn off the TV show. But now I get it.
            As I am only a small percentage of contagion and find it overwhelming when I am affceted by it, I can not imagine how it affects you al the time.
            Thank you for your reply. My understanding of this is an eye opener. Not quite sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing but an eye opener.

          3. windstorm says:

            Kim e
            Better understanding yourself is always a good thing. I went thru a really rough spell of depression a couple weeks ago where I felt really defective after a really difficult social Interaction that lasted several days. I guess it was a sort of meltdown. Hopefully you have enough normal in you that you don’t ever experience such episodes. But if you ever do, remember that it’s just a part of you that’s different and you can’t change it. It doesn’t keep you from being a wonderful person in lots of ways. We all just have to accept ourselves for who and what we are and do the best we can with what we have. Best of luck to you!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            I was referring to not having envy of how much a contagion takes on from others. I know Windstorm has explained that she is unable to even watch some movies or read certain books without gauging how much they might affect her. Do you find the same?

          5. Kim e says:

            I never really thought of it until windstorm started talking about it. After I had my ED, I read up on contagion but it did not really click as to how it affected me. But now…I get it. The moveis and tv shows I could not watch. That thread from last week almost killed me. I could not read….had to delete.
            Guess it has always been there but know I know what it is and why I do certain things. I just tole windstorm I am not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing that I now get it.
            Next time I am watching something and just have to turn it off at least I will know where the overwhelming feeling is coming from.
            And I am SSSSSOOOOOO happy that thread is done.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            I’m glad you asked for clarification instead of taking that as a slight. That’s how things are best resolved. We can learn a lot from the conversation of others and I’m glad you found benefit in this one, as I did when I came here and learned from Windstorm and Twilight. It offered to me explanation to the reason some people are more profoundly affected by seemingly normal experiences (even by empath standards). I can’t imagine being affected in that way – thus I don’t envy them comment. Good work on the 10 weeks!

          7. Kim e says:

            NA. Thanks. 10 weeks is a good start but just a drop in the bucket. Had a hoover yesterday but if that is all he has, I will be fine. Just reminds me of how cowardly he is. Or as HG lovingly calls MRN…reminds me of what a twat he is.

          8. SMH says:

            Kim e, What’s the thread that everyone keeps mentioning? I must have missed it (plus I am nosy). Maybe K will lead me to it? Pretty please? 🙂

          9. Kim e says:

            SMH…it is THIS thread. This is the thread where Julie was and fighting with the world.

          10. SMH says:

            Kim e, Oh – for some reason I thought there was another one. Because I missed this one initially I figured there must be another one. Maybe I am just being paranoid lol.

          11. Bibi says:

            I was skimming some online articles about empaths and contagion and they all suck. Here is an example:

            “Being an empathic person allows you to be more vulnerable to emotional contagion. It might be good if the emotion being circulated was something positive such as camaraderie, or the urge to move in a bar. But sometimes it can also be something negative like sadness.”

            Why is sadness negative, exactly? I have no problem with sadness. These sites suck b/c they label emotions such as sadness and anger as ‘bad’ and happiness as ‘good’. No wonder if someone feels depressed, why they feel so defective.

            ‘The urge to move in a bar’ is positive? What?

            Anyway, when I look up empaths I end up finding a lot of hippy woo-woo and they soon delve into talk about crystals. This is meaningless to me.

            Not like I need to state the obvious, but your insights are much better, HG.

          12. WhoCares says:

            Kim e,
            The smallest percentage in my ED results was for Contagion, so it is there but just a smidge. I wonder if this has sometimes (for me) a low level, undercurrent affect that I just never acknowledge because it doesn’t seem obvious but is still influencing my mood, feelings and physical well-being. It isn’t something that I necessarily need to address in the moment but accumulatively, over time, I think it does have a detrimental effect – and I never thought about this until *you* started
            thinking about it. So, thanks!

        3. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Happy Thanksgiving, Windstorm❣
          Peace & Love & Bountiful Blessings,

        4. NarcAngel says:

          Happy to see that you are well as I’ve been wondering what you’ve been up to. Thank you for thinking of us all and stopping to say hello. It means a lot. Don’t even try to follow this thread – it’s all out of joint and ultimately not worth it. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family (hope that little Super is not giving you and your daughter too much trouble haha). Take care my friend and drop in when you can. You are sorely missed.

        5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Windstorm,
          My heart just skipped a beat when I saw your name 😱
          Soooooooo surprised n happy tears of joy ……finally !!!!!
          Are you returning …we luv you, need you and miss you heaps 💕
          Hugs n kisses to you beautiful lady 🤗💋
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘
          (Ps I hope you are really well… I wasn’t sure if I could post on this thread as it’s been stalling n freezing n I can barely move the page with so many comments )

          1. windstorm says:

            Dear Bubbles
            It is the biggest thread I’ve ever seen! Maybe HG is leaving it alone to see how big it will get. Ha, ha!

            I guess I’m well enough. Hope you’re fine, too. I’m probably not really back. I’m still working on my same big project I left back in February to work on. I’ve made a lot of headway, but no where near finished. I need to keep my focus on finishing before I run out of time.

            Great to hear from you! ❤️

          2. NarcAngel says:

            If it’s a project that large you must be charting your family narc tree for Ancestry.com lol.

          3. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! That ones beyond me! I tried to fill out the family tree page n my Bible once n found it impossible. No one would tell me any names beyond my grandparents. I kept getting comments like, “You’re better off never even hearing his name.” Or “ “best to leave them lost to history.” Nobody living would tell me anything. One aunt I was staying with said she had nightmares after id asked her about her family because she couldn’t get them out of her mind. She was so shook up n miserable, I stopped asking after that. I just wrote “unknown” n all the blanks.

            🥨s family is about the same. From what I could pick up, his ancestors came to America to escape the law n all changed their names when they immigrated. No one even knew what country they came from. 🤣

        6. Loreleil says:

          Well Windstorm. I’m famous at long last! Good to see you.

        7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Windstorm,
          Thank you for your reply lovely one
          I must have missed the reason for your leave of absence, however, I wish you all the best for your project
          Social interaction can be extremely stressful and you must do what is best for you
          All I can say is …. I give my thanks to Father Christmas and the Turkey for dropping in early and leaving us a wonderful n beautiful gift …. that gift, being you !
          My warmest heartfelt wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving n Merry Christmas Windstorm
          You’re always in our thoughts
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. windstorm says:

            Your sweetness is always like a breath of fresh air to me! Thank you n you have a great holiday season, too!

        8. Mercy says:

          Windstorm, if we had known hitting a 1000 comments would bring you back we would have done it a long time ago! With you making an appearance we might break WP. I’ve missed you and hope you and your family are doing well. Happy Thanksgiving!

          1. windstorm says:

            Thank you, Mercy. We are all doing well. I’m going to see Frozen 2 for my first time with 2 granddaughters this afternoon. It’s been about to kill me not to have seen it yet!
            Have a great holiday weekend!

    3. Mercy says:

      Kel, I’m not sure if what you are saying about a normal in a narcissist relationship is correct but I am sure that HG described the co dependent as becoming numb and depressed. A person doesn’t have to wear their emotions on their sleeve in order to be an empath. Depression is an emotion or is caused my emotions and it’s a horrible sickness that some never find help for. I know because I watch my mother suffer through my whole childhood. I have very few memories of her being happy.

      It seems unfair to criticize a SE for saying they are a SE especially when it’s been confirmed by HG. Everytime someone states they are a SE they get criticized for thinking they are special. The only thing that makes them “special” is the special criticism they get from others.

      1. FYC says:

        Excellent points, Mercy. I am so sorry your mother was overcome with depression, that would be very hard for both of you. Thank you for your balanced comment.

        1. Pati says:

          Depression is very sad. My oldest son was diagnosed with a mental illness a few years ago He is much better . What i dont understand is that my husband was there for him and helped him through the tough times e.g.trying to comitt suicide. he is A Narc and he showed empathy . I am just extremely confused.

          1. FYC says:

            Pati, If your husband is a confirmed narcissist, it may be that he has cognitive empathy. A N also sees his children as an extension of himself (their success, admiration, etc seen as his own) so he would not want his son to ‘fail’ or put the father in a bad light (he would not want to be associated with mental illness nor the stigma of suiside). If a midrange narcissist, he would also use the opportunity to display to the outside world how ‘kind and wonderful’ a father he is (facade management). Lastly, he might use his seeming ‘caring’ to manipulate your son to ensure he is seen as blameless or to use as leverage for a future manipulation (‘I was there for you, and this is the thanks I get?’ or ‘I was there for you now you have to…’. There is always another shoe to drop. Nothing is given freely with MRNs. I would be interested to hear your views on his deeper experience and motivations.

          2. Pati says:

            FYC,thank you for responding.
            First of all HG confirmed that he is LMR N.
            I do agree thet he must have cognitive empathy.
            I did email HG and asked him about the cognitive emapthy in consulatation and he said that he has learned to behave that way ,that he doesnt feel it.
            Its hard for me to except because he did save my son. Shouldnt i be grateful? I am . My N told me that (me as a mother ) wasnt there for him (my N) and that i didnt offer him any emotional support. But how can I if he doesnt have any emotions to begin with?
            He showed to everyone what a hero he is.
            I feel guilty because my son is stable and loves his dad. How is he going to react if I leave him.
            I dont want him to have sucidal thoughts again when he is now stable.

          3. FYC says:

            Pati, You are in a very difficult situation. Given your son’s history of psychological issues, I would not want to guess on your best path; there is too much at stake. I am confident, however, that HG can navigate these waters with you successfully. I am so sorry you have had to deal with so much. Take care. We’re all here for you and pulling for you and your children. Sending hugs.

          4. Pati says:

            FYC, i do feel comfortable here and thats why I comment . You guys are like family !!!!!
            My son’s wellness means a lot to me and thats why i am still with my N.(amongst other reasons)
            I know the logic is GOSO and i havent applied it. Perhaps i will be disengaged from him. It will makes my life easier than me having to do. Yes i know its my ET.
            Thank you again FYC!

          5. FYC says:

            Pati, you are very welcome, but I don’t feel I was able to really assist. I am wishing you the very best and I’m glad you found your way here.

          6. Pati says:

            FYC, yes you did assist me by listening ,and by giving me confidence Thank You i appreciate it.

          7. FYC says:

            Pati, thank you. You are most kind. I very much appreciate it feels like an impossible mountain to climb right now. But, it is solvable and you and your children will go on to thrive. Now that I know your situation more fully, I hope you did not feel pressure from me to take action quickly when we first spoke. I just wanted you to get the best help as soon as possible (from HG). I am sure you will, in your own timing, and when you are ready. In the mean time, take good care of you and your kids.

          8. Pati says:

            FYC, thats ok ,your advice is very useful. See i know the answer is GOSO . My situation is challenging . I would like to see HG’s view and I am sure he will give me the best advice . I know logic ,not applying it because i am trying to keep my family together . Coming from Greek parents I have been raised to keep the family together .i am not selfish. But not happy either.
            I will eventually find my way. Thanks again !

          9. Mercy says:

            Pati, I’m sorry to hear about your son. How old is he? I think kids that suffer depression have it the worst. There’s so much pressure in school and friends and trying to fit in and never feeling good enough. You’re a strong lady. FYC is right, the situation with your son and your N husband is complicated. I think what you are doing is exactly what needs to be done right now. Educating yourself. When the time comes that you make decisions about your future, you will know the right answers. Trust yourself.

          10. Pati says:

            Mercy , he was around 17 years old when it happend ,out of the blue. He asked for help thank god and we got him the help. At the time i gave birth to my 4th child and tried to keep my other 2 kids ok. The psychiatrist said he is doing better because of our family dynamics . Little does he know that my husband is A Narcissist. They do charm the doctors i mean he managed to charm me. My situation is so hard . I am waiting to see HGs point of view.
            Thank you Mercy

          11. WokeAF says:

            I’m sorry for your son’s troubles.
            My kids dad has SO many narc lesser traits, and uses SO many of the manipulations. But even though I found HG about 2 years ago it took me until only a few months ago to reconcile in my head that my ex must be a narc. He appeared to show empathy for both our children at times and appeared to ”love” them. I couldn’t get it.

            The video HG did Is He A Narcissist pushes me over the cognitive dissonance.
            (And the lion analogy just slayed me 😂)

            He’s not been under the narc detector and that will happen soon enough as at this point I want that final confirmation from the authority, but also to be sure of his school and cadre for my own reference.

            The lesser victim narcs , are very much like 2 yr old boys sometimes. Tantrums, hugs, tears, etc. But it’s all from a purely selfish point of view.
            This outlook helped me.

          12. Lorelei says:

            Pati–the cognitive empathy is very difficult to understand. I still have moments of questioning what I saw, but just as stated, it is learned. It’s also pointless to tell my kids what their dad is. My sense of wanting some form of justice has diminished to almost zero because I genuinely view him as so inherently disordered it is almost clinical and not personal. I hate to use the word “blessed” as it feels fraudulent because I don’t do church—but it gets the point across. It took someone whose behavior is so foul for me to finally get it which is where some form of blessing in disguise has been. It is undeniable that he is so rude, unbelievably arrogant and disordered that I get the message. It has not been this way with other narcissists. I think the lack of consistency in devaluation makes it more difficult for people. When you are lifted up occasionally you tend to diminish the rest. In a way I will never need to tell my kids about narcissism because he is doing a good job of it on his own. If your husband has the capacity to be more engaging and appropriate as many do then there are different advantages/disadvantages. I think all of our circumstances have their own unique subsets of challenges.

          13. WokeAF says:

            “ In a way I will never need to tell my kids about narcissism because he is doing a good job of it on his own.”

            Agreed- well stated.

        2. Mercy says:

          FYC, Thank you for your kind words. My mom passed in 2005 of cancer. I spent alot of time with her in the end and I think we both got to say everything we wanted to say to each other. She felt alot of guilt about the depression and thought she let me and my brothers down. I didn’t know she felt that way. We never blamed her, we just knew she was sick. I’m so glad we got those last week’s. My only regret is that we didn’t talk sooner.

          1. FYC says:

            Mercy, That is heartbreaking, depression and then cancer. I have read there can be a link between the two. I am certain you were a blessing to your mother even when you may not have realized it. I have a feeling you spoke at exactly the right time–when you were both ready. That was such a beautiful gift for you both. I have no doubt she was proud of you and smiles on you now. You are a good soul.

      2. Desirée says:

        It’s not so much that self-proclaimed SEs are attacked for thinking they are special, but rather that it is almost always false. While it’s possible that a SE would “self-diagnose” correctly and state as much, the proclamation is often the result of a confused Empath with very high Emotional Thinking or even more often, the result of Mid-Range Grandiosity and Delusion. If that person is a SEC-C, nobody argues with that but people constantly claiming they are to justify their behaviour can cause confusion.

        1. Mercy says:

          I understand what you’re saying and I’ve witnessed it myself. That’s why I love that HG does the empath detector now. In fact, that is my next purchase. It just seems like everytime someone states they are a SE they get criticized for it by at least one person. It’s a shame that NA has to enclose a disclaimer stating she doesn’t think she’s better than anyone else. The “card-carrying certified SE” was a bit too much for me.

    4. FYC says:

      Kel: Where does this venom come from? Did I miss a post were you are personally attacked by a SE? Why the impulse to degrade another empath, much less an entire class of empaths, only to place yourself on a pedestal? Where is the empathy in that? It seems a rather narcissistic a trait to me. And while we are on the subject, HG is as narcissistic as it gets, the rarest Ultra. Does he not have many valuable talents and likable qualities? Has he not added value to your life in spite of his psychological defense? If he has not, why are you here?

      I do not understand why you feel ‘rare’ equates with ‘better than’, or more to the point, ‘better than you’. Where does that assumption come from? Not empathy. I have never seen any such assertion from NA regarding superiority, but I am seeing that from you here. Degree of empathy is not a contest.

      ANYONE ensnared by a narcissist is in for a painful ride. Normals feel pain, not ‘numbness’ (recall Renata, the narcissistic normal of BLL). Empathy is not the degree to which you have emotion (worn on the sleeve or otherwise), it is the degree to which you can feel and share the experience of ANOTHER. All empaths have that ability to one degree or another. No contest. No jealousy or envy.

      Kel, I don’t want you to feel “less than” and there is no reason you should, but this stands irrespective of anyone else. No one can pigeonhole you unless you buy into their definition. (It is ironic you are pigeonholing SEs though.) Each one of us is unique and valuable, including narcissists (as long as you don’t get not too close or allow yourself to be manipulated). Know yourself, Kel. You define you. Only you are you. Let people think what they want, that is their prerogative. Embrace all that you are and feel good about that. You deserve that. So do Super Empaths. So does everyone.

      1. kel says:


        There was no venom – I have no idea what you’re talking about.

        NA’s reply was perfect.

        I did not put down SE. What you missed was me stating that everyone seems to want to be an SE, and that it seems to come off a bit overrated as something higher probably due to the word super. I was saying the high narcissistic traits in an empath are next door to being closer to a normal than a narcissist.

        It was so simple. And I’m not interested in debating you over it

      2. kel says:

        Also fyc

        What is this quotation marks about me feeling less than?? I said nothing of the sort. Believe me, in no way do I feel less than to you or to anyone.

        1. FYC says:

          I am very happy to hear that, Kel. You certainly are not. That was my whole point. My reply was based on the tone of your original comment, that for me, came across as pretty negatively judgmental towards NA’s comment, SEs in general and even toward yourself. I do not see any empath classification as aspirational. Each has their strengths and weakness. I see everyone as valuable. No debate desired by me.

  21. cogra002 says:

    I’m glad read this one. I’m experiencing this stranger setting right now. It’s not bothersome, as HG says, but I’m glad to know beforehand that a storm is brewing.
    Funny, because in true empath style, I had a premonition that after the holidays, the Narc will do a new level of devaluation, which there isn’t much to go. I’ll better ready with my mental bags packed.
    This was great info to have.

    1. Violetta says:

      Why wait for the hols, if the narc can ruin everything from Thanksgiving to New Year’s?

      1. cogra002 says:

        Violetta my initial decal and discard was at Christmas 2 yrs ago, the 1st Christmas without my Mom, for me.
        I didn’t know any of this, so I was baffled, hurt, missing my Mom, it was terrible.

      2. WokeAF says:

        Violetta even tho I left – (escaped I mean- wow I didn’t ever say that until now!) from my kids dad –
        I allowed him over for every xmas eve for 12 years despite the turmoil he’d inevitably cause to a smaller or lesser degree.

        This xmas is my THIRD xmas where he’s not allowed .The kids still don’t love it but both understand. (They’re older)

        It’s the tits.

        1. Violetta says:

          Cogra and WAF:

          If narcs can’t stand for people to feel special on their birthdays, how do you think they feel on Jesus’ birthday?

          1. WokeAF says:

            My kids dad loves xmas. It’s fun for him But he leaves everything till last minute and causes stress . I try to do it without him he has a tantrum about that.
            He just has tantrums over things so often that I don’t let him in my home anymore. I won’t trap myself or my kids with him anywhere overnight etc.
            On xmas If he has a tantrum and I have to ask him to leave then I’ve ruined Christmas, and even the children Would prefer everyone fights it out or tries to make up rather than having to boot him on Christmas I don’t have the energy for that anymore. So I stopped allowing him over for Christmas and then later I stopped allowing him over entirely.
            Wish I’d implemented this sooner but oh well

  22. Chihuahuamum says:

    Just my two cents for what its worth….i dont like to get involved in disputes but ive been on forums and seen conflict arise and heres my take back…its not worth it to draw things out. Say your piece and move on imo. Ive also seen many a person live on forums and it becomes their reality and with that when upsetting things are written it seems the end of the world and great importance is placed on it. I had seen a quote yesterday that i liked and it was ” the only person you can let drive you crazy is the person you give the keys to”. If someones getting under your skin walk away take a break. Also if you know certain posters trigger anger or upset dont read their posts. Ive done this many times online i will skip over certain posts bc i know itll bother me.
    Also keep in mind certain individuals will lend support but have ulterior motive of wanting to draw out the drama bc they enjoy it and this isnt pointing fingers but ive seen this in other groups.
    I think both lorelei and julie are empathic individuals 🙂

  23. NarcAngel says:

    I will preface this comment by stating that I not only identify with being a Super Empath but that it has been confirmed by HG. Not as any statement of grandiosity or thinking any school of empath is better than the others (that is ridiculous), but to halt any unnecessary debate/accusation about my being a narcissist and by way of explanation that we can be empaths but behave and perceive things in very different ways.

    I am not cuddly, do not say a lot of fluffy things, have ruffled feathers, debated, and offended some people with my opinions. My way of handling things could be described as a kind of tough love by some, but viewed as brutish and unhelpful by others. I make little apology for embracing my narcissistic traits because of my belief that they have benefitted me greatly and could for others as well. I put out my opinion and know that often it is a counterpoint to other discussion and that’s fine because it is there for consideration only – not expected acceptance.

    But here’s the thing:
    Being an empath and having narcissistic traits does mean that you cannot offer positivity and affirmation. It doesn’t mean that you cannot offer your opinion but understand when it isn’t embraced. It doesn’t mean trying to control the narrative completely or suggesting that if people disappoint you in what they say or how they think you should behave or respond that they “will come for you”. It’s hard to understand how one could profess to demand justice for comments made about complete unknowns and label them as judging, while doing exactly that in the present arena and tossing out a label that has been confirmed to be unfounded and then not apologizing. No, being an empath with narcissistic traits will show evidence elsewhere of having some balance, of being supportive – not just bringing the thunder. There will be positive comments to champion newcomers as well as those struggling to maintain the ground they have made up by being here. There will be suggestions on alternative methods of behaviour and thinking for consideration and possible success. The evidence to champion others will be visible – not just a declaration that it is done in the background but we cannot see it. There WILL be evidence if they are an empath, have been around any length of time here, and have made good use of, and understood HG’s material.

    I am not making a determination or throwing out the label in this case of a narcissist. It’s possible to begin with an observation and have great conviction but lose sight through emotion to end up where you did not intend to be, but an empath will be able to see and feel (if only in hindsight) that they are not immune to losing out to emotional thinking as well. They will want to look at the things that were said about them to determine if there is any validity for their own growth. They will want to resolve things and bring back balance. They know that being strong and standing up for others does not mean that you can impose your will on them, or that if they are hurt by what you say or misunderstand, that you cannot clarify, adjust your delivery to enable better understanding, or flat out apologize.

    Empaths with narcissistic traits are still empaths and there WILL be evidence of that.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      HUGE Correction:

      But here’s the thing:
      Being an empath with narcissistic traits DOESN’T mean that you cannot offer……

      Apologies for any confusion.

    2. Violetta says:

      Think this is worked out pretty logically, NarcAngel, and for my part, I’ve never seen any post of yours that would discourage a struggling reader and lead to despair

    3. Julie Petkovska says:

      My comments and experience are coming from the outside world, where you don’t have the luxury of a 1500 word essay to explain.

      There are people who manipulate and those that get manipulated. Thats the real world, we live in the real world.

      I am choosing to showcase a differing of opinion, I used to say sorry all the time, now I don’t. I only say sorry if Its the right thing to do. I do not, say sorry to appease, please or when i am defending myself from a tirade.

      I do not waste my time holding peoples hand, being their crutch. The simple answer is I now say No, no to bending for you, no to listening to people make excuses.

      No to any person, who wants me to be any different that i am. I am a whole person, the light and shadow.

      If saying no to people, hurts their feelings, its because I’m putting myself first. So be it, I wasn’t born to be a mediator for people, my job isn’t to fix or save, my job is to honor myself, and if I have anything left over, then to make the choice to give and to chose wisely. That is my power.

      The problem with thinking I’m such a good person, i dont hurt people, im an empath, im above that, i could never, is that you do everyday.
      You hurt people everyday, you just dont want to acknowledge it.

      Also an empath isn’t above the same criticism as a narcissist. One is not better than the other, both are complicit in their actions. Both deserve to undergo the same scrutiny.

      I could make someone cry on this blog, but then rescue animal, from a hit n run.
      Am I bad or am I good, I am both….

      I see HG as a whole person, there are many elements to him, that can make him good and bad.
      Polarizing is just as dangerous.

      My term I will come for you, means my bad is ready to be seen, I’m ready for my traits to show and I’m ready for battle.

      I make this very clear, I do not have to do anything that doesn’t serve me, it doesn’t mean I don’t give, I chose very carefully whom I give it too.

      1. Witch says:

        Ookkkaaayyy don vito corelone!

        1. Julie Petkovska says:

          I’m not Italian, but I prefer goodfellas
          Keep trying…. you will get there one day!

      2. WokeAF says:

        Can I just draw attention to the fact that this comment has four likes?!

        HOW. HOWWWW

        1. Kim e says:

          WAF. I had to stop reading this as I was getting tired of banging my head on the wall. And now to see your comment about the number of likes I find that disturbing

        2. Witch says:

          Because there are lurkers on this site with no balls.
          I don’t even understand how a come back that exposed a lack of comprehension skills got 2 likes

          1. lisk says:

            Yes, if people do not speak up and engage, then they have no balls. On the other hand, if they do speak up, then they are labeled as bullies or stalkers.

            It’s pretty much lose-lose.

            However, most likely, the people that are liking and not commenting need to devote more time to other more important things than getting involved. So they like and move on.

          2. Witch says:

            “On the other hand, if they do speak up, then they are labeled as bullies or stalkers.”

            Lisk if you honestly think that is the issue you haven’t been paying as much attention as you may think

          3. Jaya says:

            Ok now I’m pissed.
            Ball-less lurker here. Offended.
            This has been a shit throwing fest rife with superiority and bullying. Even staying below the parapet and not engaging is not a safe place.
            Speaking for myself only; I’m here to LEARN from HG. I don’t offer up opinions unless I have something of value to offer or feel strongly about it. I have RL friends I discuss shoes and lunch and interior decor with.
            As someone wanting to learn and heal, I need the information on this site. I’ve read his books, I follow the blog, I’ve had detector tests. I’m trying desperately to make my way forward.
            Usually I just grimace at the noise pollution on here, the superiority and territory marking by people who should have MOVED ON by now if they’re not here to assist positively. I hate hate hate the way old timers regularly have discussions about other bloggers as if they were inanimate objects. It’s offensive to me as a reader, I imagine being on the receiving end isn’t particularly uplifting either. Another reason to shut up and scroll on. Who needs that?
            I did have an epiphany whilst trying to wade through all this toxicity. HG has been making a funny. How the mighty will fall..
            SE is Super Empath right? Kinda like HG’s other pet names; Poppet means puppet to him. Super Empath will always mean Semi Empath to me. Able to dim empathic traits and let the narcissistic ones shine through. A lot.
            Who’s worse? A narc doing what he’s born to do or someone who knows better but chooses that route?
            I guess HG is conducting one of his own experiments by allowing the thread, a Lord Of The Flies type thing. Ugly. Some utterly disgusting comments about and to Mommy Pino. I needed to punch something.
            Those of you who stuck to your principles did so with intelligence and grace. I admire you immensely. Kel and Lisk spring to mind immediately, there were others but I don’t want to go over the thread again to find them.
            The reason this all started was someone with frequent off-topic posts being called a narcissist. I don’t necessarily agree (or disagree) but I found the posts annoying. Again, I’m here for what HG can teach me. In a SAFE environment.
            The blog feels unsafe and not one bit helpful. Even for lurkers with no balls who are trying to stay out of it.

          4. lisk says:


            Nice pissed post!

            The only way to absolutely guarantee emotional safety here is to GOSO on the comments and read HG’s articles ONLY.

            Please don’t leave the blog because of the comments, especially when they are so easily avoidable (tempting, maybe, but avoidable)!

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Likes really don’t mean anything. They can be manipulated and I bet you can guess if you think about it. It was better back in the day when a like showed the avatar of the person so that could be avoided, but I guess WordPress thought most people would prefer anonymity in their preferences.

          1. lisk says:

            When people like my comments, I can see who they are in my WP app, so they are not anonymous to that extent.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Yes, that’s the point. You see them, but it doesn’t show to others so they don’t know if they have been manipulated. Not everyone has a WordPress account, and even though I do, I have been unable to “like” comments for some time and can’t be bothered to look into it because “likes” do not really concern me enough to do so.

          3. Julie Petkovska says:

            I’m hoping that what I said resonated with people.

          4. Desirée says:

            WokeAF and NA
            I use a wordpress account but am neither able to like things nor to receive notifications if someone responded to me. Is this a common problem? Perhaps I will just set up a new account and try again with that.
            That being said, I used to get notifications about who exactly liked my posts, even though it does not show up here. I prefer that it did.

          5. WokeAF says:

            NA well I noticed the second she makes a comment it gets a LIKE 🤔

            But still. Da fuk.

          6. FYC says:

            Woke: Facebook is getting rid of likes. The company communicated they desire to shift their focus to quality of content over popularity.

        4. lisk says:


          I see five likes. I know that I am one of the likers.

          How? Why?

          This sentiment of Julie’s in particular resonated with me: “I make this very clear, I do not have to do anything that doesn’t serve me, it doesn’t mean I don’t give, I chose very carefully whom I give it too.”

          P.S. Note that that isn’t the only comment of Julie’s here that has four or more likes.

          1. Witch says:

            Lisk, in context though that quote doesn’t make any sense

          2. lisk says:

            In the context of this whole comment thread, it absolutely does.

          3. kel says:

            Are you all serious? Are you listening to yourselves? What makes you think you are the authorities here that decide who can comment and what they can say? You love to bully and fight. Did you even consider what Julie posted, she meant it as an honest observation and to help others see something based on what we learn from the article’s. There’s no reason to attack a person for having an opinion. You could’ve used some intelligence and had a calm conversation about why you think Lorelei isn’t. I personally think Julie made some good points, and I Liked several of her comments. Lorelei’s comments to HG regarding this have been rather mean and putting him down, I believe she thinks he’s an ass, she’s entitled apparently. She’s made several odd comments regarding this thread that make zero sense which is a red flag: she could beat HG at chess/ she would like a kangaroo with a baby in it’s pouch- only two which are on this page – these comments make me say – huh? and are red flags. Like it or not, Julie brought up some interesting points that add up. Random comments daily regarding amazon and shampoo are things we chuckle off, but may be signs as well. I’m saying Discuss the topic- don’t break out into a brawl because someone said something- that you took wrong. It’s not your job or expertise to kick a commenter off the blog or decide they’re wrong – I do not want to be in any clique like that- or have anyone tell me what to think.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            You must not have read the whole thread.

          5. Julie Petkovska says:

            I can tell you she did 🙂

          6. WokeAF says:

            ”Are you listening to yourselves? What makes you think you are the authorities here that decide who can comment and what they can say“

            That’s the point. Julie started this whole thing by thinking she was the blog monitor and telling everyone what they canning can’t post about then she called Lorelei a narcissist and it went off .

            Lorelei challenges HG in a flirty cocky manner. He responds bc he gets it.

          7. Julie Petkovska says:

            Thank you lisk, can I say, how you approached me and asked me to do something, I could tell it wasn’t a threat or manipulation, it was genuine and I agreed.

            I am hoping people understand that strong boundaries protect you from being ensared.

            I’m glad something’s I said resonated.

          8. Desirée says:

            I understand your confusion as I was not caught up on this conversation that has now been going on for quite some time. I recommend reading this thread again from the start (I think it started last Saturday) and the reasons for why NA spoke as she did become evident.

          9. lisk says:

            kel is absolutely not confused.

          10. Witch says:

            Hi Lisk
            Maybe it makes sense to you.
            But from my point of view Narcangels comment was very reasonable and considerate and once again Julie responds in a defensive/oppositional way.
            But as you can see now, Julie has admitted that it is her defence mechanism that is clouding her judgment.

          11. lisk says:

            No, I cannot see that now, but I’ll check her comments later.

            P.S. I disagree with many of NA’s comments in this thread.

          12. WokeAF says:

            Yes, her “defence mechanism”

            Think on that one a moment.

        5. Mercy says:

          Woke, now there’s 5. Haha let’s not think too much on that. It brings back bad memories of Facebook stalking the ex N. Why was the mail lady liking his post? Ohhh because he was banging her on her lunch hour.

        6. Julie Petkovska says:

          Woke, I’m still here by the way, your post is correct to a degree, you witnessed my self defence mechanism in action, to protect me from being controlled.

          When someone tried to assert control, my defence and boundaries or wall is up. I can deflect to protect myself. Everything “bounces off.

          It’s why narcissist try to control me but rarely can.

          My self defence mechanism is to protect FROM perceived or real threats of control.
          Lower empathy means my emotions are down and my soft side is protected to allow me an escape.

          It is one side of a coin.

          HG has the same mechanism BUT not only does he protect himself, he then NEEDS to control, to further protect himself. Hence controlling others gives him fuel and power, this is how I view it.

          My battles deplete me, no fuel.

          I liked what you wrote, its why HG has describes My personality as more robust to deal with manipulations.

          My need to protect myself from such manipulations comes from NPD mother, sister and co dependant father.

          When HG writes about his exes, I can see where they have tried to control him or assert some power that possibly leads to their demise.
          You can see it’s like a dance of push pull. Someone tries a tactic and I deflect.

          It is why I advocate so hard for people, to GOSO no contact.

          1. lisk says:

            (Julie, I am the one who “liked” this comment.)

          2. Julie Petkovska says:

            I see the likes : )

          3. WokeAF says:

            I wonder what that “defence mechanism “ would be diagnosed as.


          4. Julie Petkovska says:

            Lol you’re interrupting me watching the mandolorian.
            Disney + is so good. The Australian version has more content.

        7. Bibi says:


          I briefly glanced last night when I was tired as shit and I wondered the same. I have no WP and so I am unable to like and nor can I even see anyone’s images from my computer. I can from my phone, however. I don’t get it.

          She probably has sock puppet accts and liked herself.

          1. Julie Petkovska says:

            Funny, but incorrect

          2. Bibi says:

            (In my Joe Pesci voice)

      3. NarcAngel says:

        ” I only say sorry if Its the right thing to do. ”

        It’s the right thing to do when you’ve targeted, accused, and labelled someone as a narcissist and are proven to be wrong. You were proven to be wrong.

        There’s no verbal clutter or wiggle room there.

        Leaving your initial opinions aside, the inability to stand up and recognize the fact that you were wrong, and to apologize with regard to that instance alone, jeopardizes/negates any claim of any supposed championing or standing up for others (concern for people new to the blog for example) claimed at the outset and exposes your initial intent as fraudulent. You wanted to complain and vent and had no real concern for anyone else. Fine, but don’t be a coward -own it.

        1. lisk says:

          Basing my opinion solely on my experience early in this thread, on the remaining comments in this thread, and on the direction this thread has gone, I would say Julie is hardly wrong.

          If she is not spot-on, then she is very, very close to the mark.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Ate you saying then that the results of HG’s Empath Detector is ineffective/defective in finding Lorelei an empath? That Julie has a better read on her being a dangerous manipulator?

          2. Julie Petkovska says:

            I’m saying she faked it. Hence her amnesia and others then sending her links. And then her saying she is all of them.

            Her comment to get out of the dungeon, was a perfect example to soften me up. I deflected & shut her down.
            Lorelei manipulates it’s as simple as that

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Interesting. I know that HG takes confidentiality very seriously, but I did not think he would allow people to lie about having had an Empath Detector. I would think that would affect his credibility and the assertion that he corrects inaccuracy, so he would not allow that. Perhaps I’m wrong.

            I’m also honestly puzzled by this:
            Of all of the potentially dangerous people who have been here to try to provoke and manipulate, why did you pick Lorelei? Why have you not commented on others?

            Let’s have some honesty:
            Isn’t it more the truth that her comments just bug the fuck out of, and annoy you, and so you thought you would address it under the guise of her being manipulative and protecting others who have not come forward? And then you threw another few comments in about others for good measure to express your displeasure and disappointment on how the blog is being run? Because it is after all moderated and run by HG. That you got carried away and your opinions turned into accusations?

            I ask because HG is protective of his legacy and has been pretty good about ridding the blog of anyone dangerous after a brief appearance to exercise our knowledge. It’s in his best interest to do so. Otherwise the blog would gain the reputation of being a place where people are manipulated and HG is not a stupid man.

          4. Julie Petkovska says:

            NA, firstly HG knows I would never do anything to jeopardize what he is building.
            He has asked me numerous times to engage on the blog, I declined for a long time, as I knew if my personality came out, I would be labelled as a narcissist and it was pointless, however over a space of a week, I saw some posts that really got me worked up.
            1). Lorelei was controlling the narrative, she was enjoying all the attention until she starting behaving more toxic, such as judging women in a horrific way and others joined in.Who as an adult is going to sit in a cafe and scroll through pictures and laugh at some one else and feel powered by it?
            2) her need to be sexual and sexualized, this is a site for information on how to defend yourself from predators.
            3) her grandiose stories, do you really think you can drink tequila and be drunk in Tiananmen square where people where murdered? Her stories are false, overly dramatic, so.much happens in one day of her life?? for someone who is such a high flyer she doesn’t know the basics. She also said her child witnessed something and she denied it, said she didn’t see it it didn’t happen, gaslighting.
            4) HG knows this, he toys with her, but other people fawn over her, using their emotional thinking like she is some poor wounded creature.
            5) then someone asked her about abstinence and she lied, the question was real, So HG, had to step in as dislikes misinformation, when he said she exaggerates


            I called it….

            That to me is too many red flags, you may call her a drama queen, however the mere definition of that is some one that manipulates and needs constant attention.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Ah. I did not know that you were pursued (numerous times makes it sound more like recruitment) by HG to engage on the blog. There must have been some reason he felt compelled to do do. I wonder if it’s working out the way he envisioned. Thank you for your reply.

          6. Julie Petkovska says:

            Although I would like to point out he didn’t know when I would, so I wouldn’t say recruit.

          7. WokeAF says:

            Omfg NA
            you just made me laugh out loud so hard. I have tears in my eyes I’m not kidding. Omg. You’re so good 😂

          8. lisk says:

            I do not know the results, so I cannot answer that question specifically.

            Regardless, I’ve said before in a different thread, I do not always agree with HG.

          9. WokeAF says:


          10. WhoCares says:


            I am replying here but this is to both you and Julie…do you really believe she is that close to the mark…do you notice that in every one of her replies she takes the stance of “better than”…more together in her personal life…more better at exercising her empathy…better at controling both narc/Empath traits…better at responding under
            ‘1500’ words in her comments…better at moving forward in her personal life than those she sees here ‘identifying’ with victimhood and not moving forward…I could go on.
            I fail to see an ounce of humility or empathy in her comments.

            Julie – by the statement below, do you really believe that Lorelei faked her Empath Detector results and cannot be “all” the cadres?

            “I’m saying she faked it. Hence her amnesia and others then sending her links. And then her saying she is all of them.”

          11. lisk says:


            To answer your two questions.:

            1. Yes, I have already said that I believe she is that close to the mark.

            2. I notice that Julie takes a firm, evidence-based stance, which I can understand might come across as “better than” to some.

          12. WhoCares says:

            1. Fair enough. I think she has seized upon some the comments of one individual (that happen to rub some people the wrong way, while others see them differently and we are all entitled to an opinion) that was an effective bid to create a lot of divisiveness here.
            2. I think the arrogance that accompanies her evidence of “better than” is missing from many of the reports of others here in sharing their personal successes with dealing with their narcissist and bettering their lives.

          13. Julie Petkovska says:

            Who cares, when I am in a self defence mode, I am not going to be nice..
            Nice gets you manipulated, the only issue I had with what narc Angel, said was she wanted me to apologise.
            That to me was control…
            It may not have been her intention….but it felt like it to me

          14. WhoCares says:

            I did not asked you what your issue is with NA.
            I asked you a direct question on specific words of yours spoken about Lorelei:

            “I’m saying she faked it. Hence her amnesia and others then sending her links. And then her saying she is all of them.”

          15. Julie Petkovska says:

            I responded to NA already.

          16. WhoCares says:

            Your non-answer is noted.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            Control was not the intention in the apology. It is usually a reasonable result/action from people portraying themselves as you do when it is proven that they have been wrong or mistaken. To be forthright, stand up for others, honest, motivate people etc.…
            If not an apology, people espousing those qualities will at least admit to becoming too involved too quickly or not have taken some things into account. Something other than clinging stubbornly to their initial stance when it is proven otherwise. But as Lisk has brought to light – not everyone has the confidence that HG or his paid consults are determinative and that some still some may question the results. Her comment was quite enlightening actually.

          18. Julie Petkovska says:

            How do I put this, to admit I was wrong, means to be vulnerable, to be vulnerable means I am open to be controlled.

          19. Violetta says:

            Coming out of “lurk” for this one.

            Julie: “HG knows this, he toys with her.”

            He that is giddy thinks the world turns round.

          20. Witch says:

            Well then Julie,maybe you should take your own advice and read narcangels comments objectively instead of relying on your “feelings.”
            Isn’t that what you were criticising everyone else for supposedly doing? Focusing on how your comments made them “feel” instead of looking at it objectively?

          21. Desirée says:

            Good call, that’s exactly what I just thought.

          22. Witch says:

            Well HG I hope you’re enjoying your social experiment. Bye y’all!

          23. HG Tudor says:

            1. There is and was no social experiment.
            2. I have was in the US and not in a position to dedicate time to moderation (or emails). I could have chosen to not moderate at all, but I allowed as many comments through as possible (not all – I am still moderating) to keep conversations flowing but this meant that I did not comment.
            3. In many instances there was no need for me to comment anyway.
            4. I note that you soon returned after posting this comment.

          24. Violetta says:

            “I wonder if it’s working out the way he envisioned.”
            I wonder if it’s working out the way she envisioned.

          25. Getting There says:

            I have in the past been concerned about comments made such as making jokes about the Little Ceasar’s $5 pizza and such. I thought of all those who don’t comment who would think that is a treat because of the financial situation they are in. With that said, I have thought this site is like the Salem Witch Trials where if you say something incorrectly, you can be labeled as a narcissist. I thought of Mommypino before she returned and am glad to see that she shared her experience on this thread as a reminder for all. While HG knows that I don’t always agree with his assessments (like Lisk), I didn’t get the sense that is how you see things. Your comment to NA about admitting wrong equals vulnerability; vulnerability equals being able to be controlled is interesting as I see admitting wrong as taking responsibility and growth. For me, the true sense of strength comes from owning who you are and growing in areas needing growth. To cut oneself off from those out of fear that someone will take advantage of you keeps you in the fear and doesn’t allow for growth in strength. Fear is a strong emotion and the defense mechanism to combat it can look logical, but it isn’t strength. I understand wanting to protect yourself; I do it a lot of the time. You sound like a strong woman who sees things from other perspectives, and that’s great. I just hope you don’t allow your fear of being controlled to control you doing what you would see as the best step.

          26. zwartbolleke says:

            Dear Julie,

            ” (…) however over a space of a week, I saw some posts that really got me worked up.
            1). Lorelei was controlling the narrative, she was enjoying all the attention until she starting behaving more toxic, such as judging women in a horrific way and others joined in.Who as an adult is going to sit in a cafe and scroll through pictures and laugh at some one else and feel powered by it?
            2) her need to be sexual and sexualized, this is a site for information on how to defend yourself from predators.
            3) her grandiose stories,(…) She also said her child witnessed something and she denied it, said she didn’t see it it didn’t happen, gaslighting.
            4) (…)
            5) then someone asked her about abstinence and she lied, the question was real,


            That to me is too many red flags, you may call her a drama queen, however the mere definition of that is some one that manipulates and needs constant attention.”

            Dear Julie

            At this moment I am making 2 narc detectors which I bought from Mr Tudor, 1 for my mother, 1 for my father. I can assure you, that is a lot of work…

            For a start, Mr Tudor doesn’t form his judgement based on 4 incidents over a week period, there are 40 questions, considering the entire life of the person in question and these questions are real mind breakers.
            I know my parents very well, still it is very complicated to answer. Over some questions I’ve been thinking more than 2 months now. Because the consequences will be huge. If both my parents are of Mr Tudors brethren, than I will have to install no contact regime, so I take each of the 40 questions very serious.
            It is the third month that I am working on both the narc detectors (admitted, I have little time), with questions as: “how does the subject interact with friends, how do the friends regard the subject?”.
            In all honesty, NONE of us has the information to put labels on people/readers, because we can never fill in the complete narc detector of 40 questions on a complete stranger we interact with on a blog.

            Even Mr Tudor needs 40 questions covering the entire life of the person in question.

            Admitted, for some people on this blog, there are red flags to spot.

            I thank you for bringing up the red flags you spotted.

          27. lisk says:


            I just saw your comment here:
            “But as Lisk has brought to light – not everyone has the confidence that HG or his paid consults are determinative and that some still some may question the results. Her comment was quite enlightening actually.”

            It’s not about “confidence” that HG or his consults are determinative.

            First of all, I have no idea what HG’s empath instrument determined in the case in question.

            Second, as with even the best of diagnostic tools there is always room for error (I understand that HG would disagree in his case), whether he diagnosed her as a certain empath or not.

            Third, I mentioned before that I almost completely agree with Julie in her assessment of the evidence. Perhaps, my difference in opinion with her agrees with other aspects of HG’s “results.” I have no idea. I can only guess.

            Finally, regardless of the above, I am making my own assessment based on what I have witnessed on this thread and based on the opinion I had already formed after reading in many other comment threads in recent weeks or months.

            In a sense, it doesn’t matter what HG has determined. I know what my experience determines for me, and I place high importance on that.

            And when I notice that someone else is having a similar experience, I am happy to let them know that they are not the only ones who see what they see.

        2. Julie Petkovska says:

          Narc angel, yes I don’t apologise as showing any form emotion softness is taken as weakness and can be exploited by those who manipulate.

          1. Claire says:

            You don’t have to apologise, Julie. You have raised valid concerns about comments sections becoming polluted ( this is my brief description of the problem) with comments not related whatsoever to the topic.
            Yes, a healthy amount of some banter and jokes brings some positivism, you are correct that some individuals are stepping over the line and engage the other readers and HG with their non sense – examples are what they had for lunch, what they had bought online.
            Fair enough maybe they lack friendship IRL but this blog is not about their whereabouts.

            I fully agree that those strange comments , drifting apart from the main topic, would be a real turn off for any new reader who comes to the blog to seek a real help and meaningful answers about narcissism.

            The Empath card is played almost on a daily basis and in some occasions I do really doubt if the so called Empath is a such person or they want to be a such .

            I didn’t take the Empath detector yet . No idea how accurate the detector is given the fact that 100% accurate test does not exist and there is always an error – a clinical, a statistical, an error into the methodology, etc .
            Herewith I don’t want to diminish the Detector whatsoever!
            However, after observing some behaviours I do really doubt how some individual call themselves Empaths .

            What I observed recently – а reader called out another reader based on their observations. She was attacked straight way from other readers – it was kinda a packet of sharks.
            Yes , the reader ( Julie ) might have not used all correct or sugar coated words .
            However , the reader has her rights to express her opinion as every other person on this blog .
            Even though her words are harsh or unjust , this could be pointed back to her more tactfully so we won’t witness the ugly online fight Oldies ( reader who are longer ) vs Newbies .

            I was wondering why HG allowed this to happen- well, I truly admire his online persona as I have stated in many occasions before .
            But I do keep in mind he is the Ultra , thus I assume the ugly brawl provides him some low quality tertiary fuel.

          2. Julie Petkovska says:

            Thanks Claire I appreciate that.

          3. lisk says:


            Please know that your thoughtful, measured, clearly written observations in your post to Julie are greatly appreciated by others as well (okay, at least by me—can’t speak for others).

            Like you, I have not yet taken an Empath Detector yet, but I plan to. My guess would be that I’m most likely a codependent . . . or perhaps not an empath at all.

            Either way, I would question/assess the result, as I question/assess everything, and utilize it accordingly. Questioning and assessing for myself in no way is meant to diminish the Detector or HG. My guess is he knows that intellectually.

            As for HG gaining tertiary fuel via this extended comment thread under the “Why Does The Narcissist Seem So Odd?” heading, that’s highly possible.

            Regardless, he is ultimately holding up a mirror to our selves.

          4. Julie Petkovska says:

            Lisk, it’s not about the label, it’s about you the person.
            Many people here are all about the label, find out what you are and empower yourself
            Pay no mind to others, you see their duplicity

          5. lisk says:

            Je sais, Julie.

            I make it quite evident that it is not about the label for me.

            As for paying no mind, I appreciate your sentiment.

            However, I believe you might agree that sometimes it is important to openly pay mind to others, as you originally did in this thread.

            Even if it does not effect change in the person in question, even if the absolute right thing to do when recognizing a narc and/or narc behavior is to GOSO, it can be useful to validate the same suspicions that others may have. Your paying mind was quite useful for me, anyway.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            I agree that Julie does not need to apologize for her opinion about the blog being polluted with things other than narcissism. I have had the same thoughts and have no onjection about that OPINION, but it bears repeating that HG allows what we see and has acknowledged that he prunes it back. So if you see it, it didn’t get pruned and that is up to him -not us.

            What I did object to was using that annoyance to announce someone a narcissist and present them as a dangerous manipulator which I found a bit dramatic or histrionic (that being amusing since Julie threw in histrionic to Lorelei as well). I did not realize though that people did not accept the results of HG’s Empath Detector as determinative. That surprised me and has given me some thought. In that case an apology would not be required. However, when Julie said that she does not apologize because it shows weakness and leaves her open to manipulation and control. Julie is afraid of big bad Lorelei? I think not.

            So in summary:
            Opinions are one thing and accusations are another. We should be careful not to confuse the two, and when giving an opinion we should own it. Julie could have just said blog pollution annoyed her (Lorelei is not the first or only person that others have charged with that) instead of applying the dangerous narcissist label while stating concern for new people to the blog. That act itself could have had the same effect on new people here as HG regularly interacts with Lorelei. Did you all miss the comment where I noted that he would not interact with the same regularity and in the same way with Lorelei aa he does with the narcissists who fly in? He approved that comment but I guess people took that to mean something else. He also approved that I said opinions are fine but that no one should be deciding how the blog should be run. Yes, that includes me, so I give opinions but I don’t start throwing out labels at people just because they annoy me. We are all guests in HG’s house – if we don’t like the rules or the guests we are free to leave.

          7. MommyPino says:

            In summary NA, check your own hypocrisy. It could backfire. I’m glad that we made you change your mind about Julie having to apologize by bringing up K’s inability to accept the results of the Empath Detector test and apologize for accusations. I’m done arguing in this thread. We can all move on. I’ll just send a reply to Getting There tonight because I am going to have a busy day. 😘

          8. NarcAngel says:

            You didn’t make me change my mind. I said I was re-evaluating with new information. You have a problem interpreting what is actually there to what you think it means. This has caused a problem for you previously with regard to discussion with me and you have acknowledged and apologized to me for it, so it is fact and not a supposition.

          9. WokeAF says:

            NA I also didn’t realize there was question in the crowd re HG’s empath detector being reliable.

            Julie & Lisk , do you consider the narc detector also fallible then?

          10. WokeAF says:

            The new information being , that the accuracy of HG’s empath detectors is questioned by some commenters?
            Or did I miss something?
            Pls reply as I’m trying to make sure I’m following .

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Correct. That being confirmed via HG or the ED test is not accepted by some.

          12. Julie Petkovska says:

            Yes, repeated behaviors are key. People lie you know.

          13. NarcAngel says:

            Yes, we’re all aware people lie. Pity that some don’t know they are – to them it’s just their version of the truth.

          14. Julie Petkovska says:

            Your truth or mine.
            I live my truth daily, it has served me well.

          15. NarcAngel says:

            I was not referring to you as a liar. Narcissists lie and believe it’s their truth. I have not called you a narcissist here, although apparently you don’t see it as a problem if people do. I have stated that I agree with people (including you) having opinions about pollution on the blog. It has been my opinion also but it’s HG’s blog to control that so I leave it alone. You didn’t and no problem. Where you fucked up royally was with your dramatic unveiling of Lorelei as a dangerous, manipulating, narcissist and you know it. Your narc trait of pride is getting in the way of you acknowledging that you might be wrong and have jumped the gun. We all make mistakes. There has been a lot of noise here on all sides because that act of accusation has people divided and we don’t need to be. It’s obvious some people want a Julie P vs NA battle royale due to both their past issues and a dislike of my presence here on the blog. It’s childish and transparent. If enough people don’t want me here on the blog they can state it openly instead of trying to make you their solution to my removal. If you have the skills that you say you do, you can see where this is happening as it’s pretty transparent. You’ve been around awhile and have seen me here in other than this situation. You’re not stupid, and if people think you are going to be less direct than me they have a surprise coming according to your previous post. I just think what you did in pointing that finger was a mistake and more dangerous for newcomers than noise pollution. That it was a mistake. You like direct and I have been direct. You also called me garbage. I’ll take the garbage out now.

          16. Julie Petkovska says:

            HG, It doesn’t hurt if I don’t value it, it’s peaceful and calm. My world is back to normal. I could never be a part of something where women treated each other like that. Its wrong on many levels, I had to know what you valued.

            It had to end and end it did. For that I am grateful.

          17. WokeAF says:

            Well there’s your pity play you wanted to see in yourself Julie

            Quite a grand exit
            Bye Felicia

          18. WokeAF says:

            And so that’s what it was!!

            She was jealous of HG’s attention to Lorelei

            Ugh so obvious but I missed it

          19. Julie Petkovska says:

            Woke, all tests have a degree in which they may not 100% be accurate.. Take the Myers Briggs and you can get different responses. Psychopath test isn’t 100% accurate.

            I can be honest in answering questions or I can chose what perception to answer them in.

            We cannot use these tests as leverage over people if they chose to show abusive and destructive behaviours on this site.

            Lorelei is well aware of her behaviours, her manipulations and aww i just had a bad day…. queue the million fake stories she spits at you…just don’t work on me. Remember do you know where she really works? Do you know her real full name, has she been in jail? Does she take medication? is she who she says she is?

            You can chose to believe her, that is your prerogative.