A Lack of Accountability and the Effect On You

We avoid being held to account but how does that impact on you.?

How is this relevant to those of the Martyr Empathic cadre in particular?

65 thoughts on “A Lack of Accountability and the Effect On You

  1. Duchessbea says:

    I know as an Empath all the cadre of Empath that HG has mentioned, I have in various different quantities within my personality. I find it very interesting getting other people’s opinions on the various different cadres and their personal experiences with them aswell. I have also read some comments where people describe themselves as being a Supernova Empath. I try my best to direct people to HG’s sites when I read comments like this. I know people mean well but they quite clearly don’t understand the context of what they are talking about or the meaning in relation to the two very strong words. I have gone full Supernova, twice in my life and there is no messing about with that side of an Empath.
    One thing I have often wondered is whether or not HG, has ever gone toe to toe with an Empath in Supernova mode?
    The Ultra and the Super Empath. That I would pay to see.
    HG, any thoughts? 💗

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have and I won, as you would expect. I found it entertaining.

      1. Empath007 says:

        I don’t mean this as a personal question directed towards you personally HG. But your kind has an obsession with “winning”. However, from an empaths perspective, we may think we in fact, are the ones who “won”.

        For example. I found the Information you provide. Therefore I’ve remained no contact when I’d have very little chance in the past… so in my mind he didn’t “win” … I did.

        It’s all about perspective.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Something I repeatedly explain, I’m pleased to see you’re in agreement.

          1. Empath007 says:

            You have my many thanks. I may not express that enough. Your work changed my life and it won’t matter what happens from here on out… it can’t be unlearned.

            So while I have no doubt I may stumble from time to time … i’ll Win because I know their game. Even if I can’t partIcpate and play.

      2. Duchessbea says:

        Fair play. I would have loved to have been a fly on that wall. 💗

        1. Asp Emp says:

          “I would have loved to have been a fly on that wall” – you wouldn’t be a fly after the whole ‘incident’ 😉

      3. Asp Emp says:

        I bet you did HG.

  2. WiserNow says:

    Before I became aware about narcissism, there were many times I felt responsible for something or felt it would be a kind or considerate thing to do something for one of my family members or a loved one. To me, it felt like the ‘right’ thing to do and I felt positive about it. I thought that if someone else did the same for me, it would be a lovely/kind/generous gesture and I would appreciate it.

    Well, the kind gesture backfired and became a reason for one of the narcs to dish out some cold fury or contempt as their way of saying ‘thanks’. I was made to feel responsible AND scapegoated at the same time. For a long time, this was extremely confusing and hurtful. Being ‘responsible’ though, it didn’t occur to me that the only way to solve this was to have ‘no contact’ with these twisted people.

    1. MP says:

      WiserNow,

      That was the same mindset I had. I can also relate to lickemtomorrow when she talked about being a peacemaker. Before I was aware of narcissism, I didn’t see that as a weakness of mine or didn’t see myself as behaving like a doormat. I was actually somewhat narcissistic about it thinking that I might be the one to bring about peace or reconciliation or fix the conflict. I thought that my actions have a lot of value that it can actually make a positive difference. Then I get to a point of feeling like a fool especially after being ridiculed by a narcissist for the efforts that I made.

      Now I see that there was no problem with the actions that I did regarding making a positive difference. I had the best intentions although I also believed in myself maybe a little too much or have placed too much importance on my words and actions. Now I know that the problem was me not filtering who deserves that kindness and who doesn’t and not learning the best time to pull away when I see red flags. And also not knowing that red flags mean stop and do not continue and not to try harder until I reach my well intentioned goal.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Hey MP, I’d say that wasn’t a weakness but a survival strategy.

        Certainly in my case I always recognized it as such. It was something I had to do, not something I felt I really had a choice in. If I didn’t do it, no one would have done it, and even more chaos would have ensued. That chaos would also likely have involved an element of physical violence.

        I listened to HGs video a little while ago on whether narcissist’s love their children. I already knew the answer, of course, and that my ex-husband bolsters his facade by showing fake concern for our children which ultimately is just a fuelling exercise for him. But I had cause to think about my own father when I listened to that one. HG said something that took me by surprise, even though I had read it in an article he posted here before. I am beginning to wonder if I was my father’s NIPPS. He relied on me, and part of my ‘peacekeeping’ role was to ensure he was happy. I stepped into a gap most likely left by my mother. An example of that was when he got a dog – an alsation, and my mother hated alsations (which is probably one of the reasons he got the dog). Anyway, she was made her displeasure known, refused to have anything to do with it and would not attend training classes for the dog. Guess who went instead? Yep. Me. If nobody went the situation was likely to escalate. For some reason neither my brother nor sister ever seemed to take on this role, and were never concerned for anyone other than themselves. So I picked up the slack and picked up the pieces for the most part for everyone’s benefit. I did it because I felt I had to and no one else seemed to be prepared to do it.

        I’m sure your actions did have a lot of value, MP. And no doubt a positive influence in the sense you intended them well. We will never get any thanks for it because in the world of the narcissist it generally goes unappreciated. It’s expected, I guess. Being ridiculed makes it worse, of course.

        Because I was a child I didn’t know any better, but as an adult I agree that acts of filtering are required before we lay ourselves down for others to potentially walk all over us again xox

        1. MP says:

          Thank you lickemtomorrow for sharing your experiences. I can understand how it was a survival strategy. I think the form of ensnarement also affects the nature of our behaviors. My behavior towards my N mom was mostly a survival strategy because I had no choice. I was also somewhat aware that she is not controllable and most likely will never change even though I didn’t know that she was a narcissist. I knew that she had some disorder and I even diagnosed her with paranoia in my mind. With my stepdaughters though it was not survival strategy for me but mostly naivete. When I started dating their dad I felt something was wrong with their dynamic. Their dad was doing everything for them and they make fun of him to their mom. Their behaviors towards me was somewhat benign but ice cold and there were remarks made here and there that was hurtful. Their dad does not allow their mom to go inside his (ours now) house when she picks up their youngest daughter who was 16 at that time and their adult son who is special needs for a weekend at her house. She would just stay in her car in our driveway and wait for the kids to go inside her car. My husband was vocal about not wanting to do anything with their mom. I thought that I can bridge the gap with everybody and that by fixing my husband’s conflict with their mom they will not feel threatened by me and we can all appreciate each other as family like my husband wanted. Now I realize the reason my husband was behaving that way is because he figured out that No Contact or limited contact is the best way for him to deal with their mom even though he is not aware that she is a narcissist, it was just like an instinct for him. It was narcissistic and optimistic of me to think that I will be the one to fix the conflict that my husband was not able to fix for years before he even met me. Thankfully I know better now.

          I totally understand the survival mindset to be married to a narcissist. I would have the same mindset too if I was stuck in a marriage to one. Especially if there is a threat of physical violence. I am so happy that you got out of it and are thriving after surviving and enduring all of that.

          Thank you for your kind words. <3 <3

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi MP, I can see how different circumstances bring out different aspects of our Martyr and your circumstances as a child were much like mine in terms of it being a survival strategy.

            Your efforts with your husband’s daughters is commendable. I don’t know that I would call it narcissistic. That seems to keep coming up on this thread and maybe I’m confused. But I don’t see efforts to help others as narcissistic unless you are an actual narcissist and therefore gaining fuel, etc. from the effort/interaction. I think it is very empathic to reach out to others and try to solve problems, smooth troubled waters and try to help others reconcile. Only the individual knows if they are doing this for egotistical reasons. Somehow, I think you just wanted the best for everyone and tried to be inclusive. It would have helped your situation, too, but that is not narcissistic, though it seems you did turn out to be a little too optimistic. Another “failure”of empaths. But we have to try. Because it seems no one else is going to. Having made the effort you can now be at peace with the outcome. Nothing more, in that sense, needs to be said. You tried to create an option for everyone to get along and they chose not to take you up on it.

            While I tried in my family of origin to smooth troubled waters, and continued to do that in many ways in my marriage and my most recent relationship, I have as an adult also learned my value and need to stand up for myself. Year by year, I have taken back my power in that sense which probably enabled me to leave my husband and eventually to break away from my ensnarement with the most recent narc. I did cover for them both multiple times in my mind and in my heart as well as with others, but “the force” was strong within me to eventually bring and end to my devaluation and allowing others to treat me badly.

            You seem to have made some wise choices since getting out from under your mother’s influence and I’m very happy that you have been able to make a successful marriage <3

        2. WiserNow says:

          Lickemtomorrow,

          You make some good points. The behaviours of being accountable or feeling like you need to ‘fix’ things need to be considered as part of a family or relationship dynamic. The person behaving that way isn’t acting alone out of a personal ambition or decision as if to say, “okay, today I think I’m going to fix A, B and C because everyone’s minding their own business, but I have an urge to fix things”.

          The behaviours come about because of what the group or couple dynamic is like. Without empathic people in the family or couple, there would be either chaos and aggression or a cold disinterest. So, to smooth things over or to lead to more ‘togetherness’ etc, the empathic person fills that need.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for your comment, Wiser Now, and I agree. There is an onus on you to be the fixer in the circumstances. You’re not doing it because you want to interfere with other people’s lives and their decisions. As you say, you see a need and you fill it. So, there is no ego involved. Just another way of avoiding chaos and try to shore things up in the circumstances. At the same time I wish I’d had the ability to just let them get on with things like my siblings. They had their own backs while I had everyone else’s. And no one else seemed to see it or care. I find that hard to understand, but it is what it is when you’re an empath thrust into those circumstances. The dynamic is very important.

            Thank you very much for explaining it in a much better way than I was able to do <3

          2. Kristin says:

            Wisernow,
            Well said. I can’t speak for all empaths, but I have always been the peace maker and mediator because I hate conflict. Ironically I get pulled under and blamed for one reason or another.
            I agree with your statement that it would be chaos in families if empaths were not present. It fulfills a need in us to make things right but at what cost to ourselves? It is a hard lesson to learn but so worth the enlightenment once you know.
            It is good seeing you and reading your comments. I hope you are doing well 😊

          3. WiserNow says:

            Hi Kristin,
            Thank you for your comment and your kindness. I hope you are doing well and it’s good to see you here and commenting too. I hope things are going well with your family and that you’re feeling more and more grounded and stronger within yourself as time goes on.

            Like you, I don’t like conflict either. I automatically feel a need to address it to bring more harmony to a situation. There’s definitely some kind of need or instinct in empaths to ‘make things right’ and yes, it often comes at a cost to ourselves.

            It reminds me of that saying, “No good deed will go unpunished”. It’s a strange paradox when you think about it.

            Just as narcissists think in ‘black and white’ terms, I think empaths tend to think in shades of grey or maybe every single colour is a valid colour… ha ha

            When there’s a conflict of some kind, I can generally see or understand each person’s point of view and I can ‘see’ how the conflict has become a conflict. This means I don’t feel the need to heap blame on one party only – unless it’s a case of criminal or malicious intent, etc.

            I remember one time when I was in a relationship with a narcissistic person (not sure if he was a full-blown narc) and he got into a disagreement with another man. Things were said and it became an argument. I was there and I tried to ‘calm’ the situation. To do this, I started saying things that were compassionate or understanding of the other man, thinking this would make the other man less angry and more willing to back down and come to a compromise. Well, my partner then flew into a rage at me, blaming me and asking how I could take the other man’s side, saying I was disloyal, and that I wasn’t helpful to him when he needed me etc etc. That was a lesson about the male ego and how men are very sensitive and jealous about how they ‘rank’ with other men in a social sense.

            It’s very difficult to please everyone in a conflict, so the ’empathic’ way of trying to smooth things over with everyone often doesn’t actually work. Also, narcs can’t or won’t compromise, because anything other than a ‘win’ is a loss to them. I think that narcs take anything other than a win as a mortal blow and they fight against it without seeing the bigger picture.

            Thanks again for your comment Kristin and all the best to you xx

      2. WiserNow says:

        MP,

        Thank you for your comment and explanation. Yes, I agree that the ‘good intentions’ can also have an element of narcissism in them. At the time, it took a lot of devaluation before I gave up the goal of ‘fixing’ things. Before giving up I kept trying harder, convinced that I would eventually succeed. There is pride and grandiosity and self-centredness mixed into those intentions of ‘fixing’ another person or another person’s life. Although, in the middle of thinking that way, it feels like it’s the best course of action to take. It felt like I was doing it out of love or concern or duty and that I was even being ‘selfless’.

        It makes me think how much ’emotional thinking’ or delusion or ego is all mixed into the behaviours or instincts we are sure are ‘right’ at the time.

  3. lickemtomorrow says:

    I have a percentage of Martyr (10%) so not a significant amount, but this video actually took me back to my childhood. I remember always trying to make things right as a means of avoiding some of the chaos. I don’t see it so much as taking the blame in that sense, but more a taking of responsibility in order to avoid conflict. I was accepting accountability for other people’s actions and inactions, and in that sense would describe myself as a peacekeeper. Always trying to explain things away and make excuses for others so trouble did not ensue. Even if I knew they were in the wrong, I accepted to not so much take the blame as carry water for them as a means of keeping the peace.

    I have wondered where my martyr came from and what it meant, so this could be it.

  4. MP says:

    I have been working on not taking responsibility for things beyond my control.

    A few months ago my husband told me that he asked my adult N stepdaughters to reconcile with me before they move to another state. He said that my younger LMR SD old him that she will meet with me for lunch. Although I feel bad for my husband, I didn’t do anything this time to reach out to them and I never promised him anything except to have lunch if his daughter arranges it. From past experience I knew that she will not do it. Years ago when my husband asks us to reconcile, I would take the initiative to reach out to them and apologize for my part of the conflict because my goal was to fix it for my husband. They never apologize but they treat me in a benign manner which didn’t last long and the same cycle would repeat. One week before they moved my husband was so sad that none of us followed through with the reconciliation. I didn’t reach out to them and they didn’t reach out to me too. The younger SD never arranged the lunch that she said she will have with me which my husband really looked forward to. It’s sad to see him get so affected but I think it’s best for him to realize that some things are really not meant to be and we will just have to live with the situation that works best for us and less toxic. And I can honestly say that I’m totally ok with that.

    1. MP says:

      I have a small Martyr in my mix based on the ED. My stepdaughters are already in another state and the last time I talked to my husband about it, he has accepted that we will probably never reconcile and be a family with his daughters. He hasn’t pushed for it or mentioned it again since then.

  5. lindseymarie says:

    I had spent plenty of time making excuses for the awful behavior when others could see it plain as day. If I was more patient, if I hadn’t brought up that topic, if I had been more careful mentioning the topic in that way, if I had understood he wasn’t feeling well and left him alone, etc. As time went on I stopped taking the blame, and this is when the devaluations became more frequent and the silent treatments much longer, but I did take that blame for way longer than I care to admit. Today I know I wouldn’t last a day with him without calling him out on his behavior. We evolve. They don’t.

    1. A Victor says:

      Ugh, same! The excuses we come up with! So glad we evolve! The 3 Letter article recently really brought this home to me, but…:(

  6. A Victor says:

    Good video, interesting to learn about the Martyr. What is the main difference between the Martyr and the Carrier?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The Carrier sucks things up and soldiers on usually keeping a low profile with regard to the narcissist, therefore not inviting further mistreatment (behaves in an inward manner), the Martyr continues to embrace the problem by doing more for the narcissist and inviting further mistreatment (behaves in an outward manner).

      1. Witch says:

        Yes – significantly a carrier
        Learnt how to keep a poker face during my mother’s tantrums however sometimes it led to her continuing to find ways to get a reaction for the rest of the day and avoid being ignored

        1. A Victor says:

          Ah, Witch, thank you for the example, those are always helpful!

        2. A Victor says:

          Witch, after rereading your comment it hit me that I had the same experience with my mom. It really brings it home now, the Carrier part of me. I am predominantly Savior but that didn’t strike me as similar to Martyr as Carrier did, and I can definitely see this in myself. Thanks again!

          1. Witch says:

            No worries
            I learnt that if I just held out and firmed the tantrum without saying anything it would be over more quickly.
            My eldest sister who I suspect is also a narc would argue back and show her emotions on her face which would prolong the drama. She never liked to listen to any advice my mother gave even if it was good advice and I guess that was the narcissism resisting being controlled.
            I’m glad at least I listened to my mother when she said not to include a man on a housing tenancy agreement and not to have kids if you won’t be able to manage financially if that man were to leave you. But I guess my mother didn’t expect that I would end up giving her the same treatment as an abusive boyfriend, which is get rid!

      2. A Victor says:

        Interesting, thank you.

      3. BC30 says:

        OMG I found it!! I lost this comment somehow.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Great question A Victor – glad you asked it.
      The answer helps me out a lot.

      1. A Victor says:

        Yes, me as well, I have a significant minority of Carrier and felt connected to the title of this video instantly. It is still fitting but I am not a martyr for sure. I definitely see the Carrier aspect though in that his lack of accountability did force it on me and I just took it, no questions asked.

        1. WhoCares says:

          A Victor,

          “It is still fitting but I am not a martyr for sure.”
          So, I am curious – this would suggest that you do not engage in self-blaming?

          Personally, I can now see how different aspects of my empathic make up interact as a result of this last missing piece (Martyr).
          The Carrier in me does and does and does…until the Super finally says “Enough. Do for yourself!” And then the Martyr feels guilty, kicks in and says “Crap. It’s my fault – I didn’t do enough or didn’t do *right* enough.”
          And then this repeats until the Super says “Okay, fuck this.”

          1. A Victor says:

            WhoCares, that is a very interesting breakdown, I really appreciate that! It helps me understand better how each one plays out, what it looks like on a real level.

            I do not do a lot of self-blaming. I also do not look back or forward much. I have plans but they are extremely fluid, I decide how something is until more information comes along that makes me decide something possibly very different, but, I do have some very strongly held values that are firm. I keep those close to my heart.

            The biggest area right now that I am considering is how my children were raised, the effect that had on them and how to best try to help them going forward as I respect their individuality and adulthoods. Though I look back with a moment of disappointment at how things were, it is brief, I decide on a path to better it now. Reflection and self-blame are put away, for now at least. This does not preclude me from being a deep thinker, I base most things on the set of values, those were very deeply thought out, years ago, probably really always a part of my makeup but not on a conscious level until I was a young mother.

            Because I have strong majority Savior, I don’t know how my schools and cadres really play out, just that the above is typical. My Carrier was evident throughout my marriage, very much so, I did and did, as you said, and it was inward, I kept myself out of trouble that way. When there was an occasion that I needed to stand up for, my Super did come out, but this became less as time went on, probably due to my majority Standard, I just became resigned and didn’t expect anything from him as far as our relationship was concerned. He took very good care of us in many ways but he was just not present. At the end my Super came out again very strongly and for quite a while. After he left, on occasion I struggled with feeling guilty, I could’ve been a better wife etc. But two people I said this to straightened me out in a hurry, it was his problem, and then, no looking back. Once I figure out how the Savior manifests I will be well sorted out! Sorry this got so long!

          2. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you for explaining A Victor. It also helps to understand when you articulate how you see your traits play out in a practical fashion.

            Regarding the Saviour aspect in you, perhaps it flavours the way you help and assist?
            In my situation, I have significant Magnet qualities as well – so that combined with Carrier plays out in a specific way as well. For example, I want people to shine and be happy doing the things they love or excel at and I gain a lot pleasure seeing that happen. Specifically, I am of the opinion that everyone benefits from a creative outlet. So I am very supportive in this way, making room for those pursuits, providing emotional support, and some hands on assistance – but then there comes a time when that person needs to go and shine on their own. And I give them a little push in the right direction with smiling support and encouragement. Haha, this so describes the things I encouraged and supported in my ex. But anyway, of course the narc wants you involved in everything and would be happy for you to pick up their hands and assist them. Or better yet, do it for them. (I almost did this in one situation with my ex regarding setting up a business, thankfully, I did not!)
            Wow – some things are so much more clear now – and I see how they play on our susceptibilities.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi WhoCares, first can I just say that I really love your name! It has caught me off guard on a few occasions, thinking the person addressing you was saying “Who cares?” But, once I caught on to that, now I think it is very fitting. Anyway, I expect you’re correct about the Savior and where it probably shows up. I think it’s so ingrained in me that I don’t even see it. Are you only a Super in your school?

          4. WhoCares says:

            A Victor,

            Thank-you re: the name!

            I am Standard by majority, with a notable influence of Super.

          5. BC30 says:

            Based solely on my observations here, a combination of Carrier and Martyr is uncommon or rare.

            I have Carrier and Martyr in equal, but insignificant, amounts.

          6. WhoCares says:

            BC30,
            I can’t say I have really been paying attention but over the years that I have been here, many have shared they are Carriers. So, perhaps the Martyr cadre is the more aspect of the two? At least on the blog community.

          7. WhoCares says:

            “So, perhaps the Martyr cadre is the more *rare aspect of the two?

          8. WhoCares says:

            Maybe all the Martyr empaths are in church confessing their sins or in therapy, accepting blame for their situation, and still trying to figure out where they went wrong.

          9. BC30 says:

            Per what has been shared on the blog, Martyr is very rare. Savior is the most common.

          10. WhoCares says:

            Interesting.
            I have zero Saviour, same.for Geyser.

          11. Leigh says:

            WhoCares, thank you for explaining it this way. Its starting to make sense to me. I’m a perfect triple hybrid – 33% Carrier, Savior & Geyser. No Martyr at all. The Carrier in me also does and does and does until the Geyser in me explodes and throws a temper tantrum. I feel like Hissy Fit Hannah, lol! The Savior in me wants to protect, unfortunately, even the narc. When the savior comes out, I tend to be a bully too. I’m bullying the bad guy.

            This just made me think of a funny story about my brother. When we were kids, there was a boy down the block bothering him. I made my brother bring me to his house and I told him if he didn’t stop bothering my brother, I was gonna kick his ass. Keep in mind, I’m a girl and I was only 9 years old, lol. I even had it back then! Always wanting to protect.

            A Victor, reading your comment, it really hit home for me. You and I are very similar. I don’t do a lot of self-blaming either. I look at it like its the past and I can’t change it and my only option is to work on making the future better.

            I have also become resigned and don’t expect anything from my husband. He isn’t present at all. The scary thing is that the narcissism makes him think he is present. I too, am also concerned about my children. I hope I did right by them.

          12. A Victor says:

            Leigh, your likening to Hissy Fit Hannah I can certainly relate to! And your story is great! I once punched a boy in the nose for harassing my little brother on the ice rink! He had been the bully out there and after this event, he never was again!

            Also, you reminded me that in my EDC results, HG said my Savior would, initially at least, turn my Super element away from the narcissist causing me to go into battle for him instead of against him, as would happen without the Savior. I don’t remember ever doing this, probably because he didn’t have any need, everyone loved him. As time went on, the Super was directed at him but I think in my mind I still protected him, to myself.

            My ex also thought he was there, present. He didn’t know what the meaning of being present truly was.

            I have come to the thinking that I did as right as I knew and could do, in the circumstances, by my children. Now I have to rest in that and continue to set an example going forward that I hope for them to follow. For me there is no other option, as you said, I can’t go back and change anything. Thank you for your comment, you’ve really helped me start to put that Savior piece in place.

          13. WhoCares says:

            Leigh,

            Thank-you for sharing your cadres – and the story about your brother! It is a good illustration of your traits.

            “I made my brother bring me to his house and I told him if he didn’t stop bothering my brother, I was gonna kick his ass. Keep in mind, I’m a girl and I was only 9 years old, lol.”

            That has Saviour written all over it!

        2. BC30 says:

          This is a great example of Carrier/Savior: “I once punched a boy in the nose for harassing my little brother on the ice rink!” — both Significant for you. You’re powerful.

          1. A Victor says:

            BC30, the Savior is actually a pretty big majority, 67% I think, with the Carrier 25%. I just looked at it today because of this conversation. The Geyser is like 13%. But, haha, no one was going to pick on my little brother!! I always have had a heart for any underdog, it is what gives me power, I am by nature a chicken.

          2. BC30 says:

            “The Carrier Empath is not a stand-alone form of empath but rather is embodied by exhibiting Carrier tendencies which “bolt on” to the relevant class of empathic individual…There is a strong sense of obligation on the part of the Carrier Empath.”

            “The Saviour Standard Empath regards it as imperative that he or she comes to the aid of people…The Saviour Super Empath is akin to a caped crusader who fires into action whenever he or she witnesses injustice.”

            I am starting to piece together how the various schools and cadres affect each other through observation here. I can definitely see the empathic personalities in comments, particularly when you all share stories and not necessarily narc-related stories. Side note, I see that Carrier and Martyr tend to cancel each other out–well, some aspects anyhow. When my narcissistic traits arise, they cancel each other out because I blame shift.

            I may also be way too into this 😆 (but I’m not gonna stop).

          3. Leigh says:

            BC30, thank you for pointing us to this comment! I’m with you, I want to start learning more about us as Empaths.

            AV, I’m a chicken too, unless I’m protecting someone else. Maybe I can kick your narc’s butt and you can kick my narc’s butt, lol!

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I like that idea! Hahah!

  7. WhoCares says:

    Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you HG! I have listened to this twice already; so much makes sense now – and I only have a small percentage of Martyr.

    1. WiserNow says:

      Same WhoCares, I listened to it on repeat. I want the words to sink in. I have majority Carrier and minority Martyr and I’ve felt overly responsible since childhood. Most probably due to my mother who was a dominating ‘victim’ narc. It’s so ingrained in my brain to be responsible that I need to consciously will myself not to feel that way. And then, I start feeling guilty… 🙄

      1. WhoCares says:

        Yes, WiserNow – ” It’s so ingrained in my brain to be responsible that I need to consciously will myself not to feel that way.”

        That’s exactly it. You have to consciously will yourself to not feel guilty. I totally get that. That is awesome that you’ve reached that point of awareness, instead of just feeling the guilt. And I understand the legacy of your mother to instill that message in. My situation is similar.
        What I totally detest is how the legal system plays on the tendency of the Empath to acquiese and (internally) accept blame for some things because we are the accountable one and then we feel forced or coerced (because otherwise we look as though we are obstructing the process) into fixing the situation even though the issues or the hurdles have come about as a consequence of the Narc’s behaviour. It’s maddening and I am dealing with it currently.

        So, thank-you. I really needed this conversation now.

        1. WiserNow says:

          Thank you WhoCares, and you’re welcome.

          I’m sorry about the difficulties you’re having with the legal system. It sounds complex and frustrating. Many laws would be unnecessary if there were no narcs. Empaths would be better able to compromise simply because they’re more accountable and can see the overall benefits of not deliberately causing difficulties.

          I can understand you feel coerced or forced into fixing the wrong. For what it’s worth, I’ve found it helps to resist being forced as much as possible. If you have met all your previous obligations to the legal extent required, then you don’t have to take on more than your share. If you resist, it’s not obstructing the process, it’s more like respecting the process and providing space for the other party to meet their obligations as well.

          It’s easier said than done however. The legal system is a minefield. For your sake, I hope the process works in your favour and comes to a conclusion soon.

          The world would operate much more smoothly without narcs.

          1. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you WiserNow

            “I can understand you feel coerced or forced into fixing the wrong. For what it’s worth, I’ve found it helps to resist being forced as much as possible. If you have met all your previous obligations to the legal extent required, then you don’t have to take on more than your share.”

            You’ve grasped it completely and pretty well have described my exact experience with the law.
            I’ve stood my ground the entire way and have been able to articulate and argue my stance with evidence. And my position has never wavered.
            Fortunately, I have been proven right (by my ex’s poor behaviour) many times over. Thank heavens for HG’s work, because without it and the understanding of what to expect from a particular narc, I am not sure I would have had the backbone to do what I’ve done.
            I’ve made my peace with what could happen and what that would look like if I lose ground at this time. And I am no longer afraid of the legal professionals. My entire case has been at the whim of judges (and that can get disconcerting) but even when they have given my ex a break, he manages to fudge it up.

            I am constantly faced with the fear of looking like the difficult one (what’s new!?) – with narcs, even if you are giving it your all and the last shreds of your soul to them, you are still the ‘difficult one.’ They just fabricate stuff out of nowhere in attempt to make you look like the difficult one.
            I laugh it off now, because I know I am not the difficult one. And where I stand my ground, or drag my heals, it is with reason.

            “If you resist, it’s not obstructing the process, it’s more like respecting the process and providing space for the other party to meet their obligations as well.”

            Yep, I have respected the process and he’s done nothing but disrespect it – every step of the way, and it shows.

            The extra pressure on my situation is because of a new professional involved (a custody and access evaluator) who I fear is an Upper Mid-ranger and is throwing her weight around. The haughtiness and moral superiority reeks from her. But she is just playing on the same fears I have had to deal with from the beginning – no change. It just causes me to feel weary. She has made some recommendations that are in my favour but also engaged in subtle-to-blatant blameshifting in my direction.
            Sorry to go into such depth, and although I am better now, her involvement in our case has been causing me a lot of anxiety.

            Whew – that feels better – I needed to vent!

            “I hope the process works in your favour and comes to a conclusion soon.”

            Thanks for the well wishes. 💜

          2. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome WhoCares. Thanks for your comment. It makes it clear that the ‘legal system’ has a lot of narcissists within it, like most other systems.

            For your sake and your son’s, I wish you strength and perseverence. I hope things work out in your favour as much as possible.

          3. WhoCares says:

            WiserNow – narcs in the legal system – Yes! But, thankfully, not everywhere.

            “For your sake and your son’s, I wish you strength and perseverence. I hope things work out in your favour as much as possible.”

            Thank-you. 💜

          4. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome WhoCares 😊💕

        2. Kristin says:

          Whocates,
          I’m sorry you are having to deal with all of this. I did not realize the legal system plays on the tendencies of empaths but I shouldn’t be surprised. Hoping things turn out well, hand in there and keep us updated 😍

          1. WhoCares says:

            Kristin,

            Thank-you, I just saw this comment!
            Well, the system does play on the tendencies of empaths in a such a way that if it looks like you are obstructing access to the child, it can be used against you. This particular evaluator is attempting to play on this fear. Where I have limited access, in my case, it has been warranted by my ex’s behaviour.

            If it weren’t for HG’s work and my application of it, I wouldn’t have recognized that this evaluator is a narcissist and I may have actually attempted to appeal to her better nature – oh, wait, what better nature?? What a waste of time, energy and brain cells that would have been. I am simply gathering facts and data in face of some of her recommendations to support my position and focus on not interacting with her or fueling her where possible.
            Thanks for your thoughts and words of support.
            Speaking of updates, I do often wonder how you are doing – let us know, when you can.

    2. BC30 says:

      I eagerly hope we get more books about Empaths and as how the schools and cadres relate to one another and how common they are.

      I’ve not found anyone with all 5 cadres like I have. I’ve found a few with four cadres. I am fascinated.

      1. WhoCares says:

        BC30,

        Agreed; more books on Empaths would be good.

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