To Control is to Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation

 

TO-CONTROL-IS-TO-COPE-_-NARCISSISM-AND-ITS-CREATION

To deal with and to address the vagaries of life, human beings have developed coping mechanisms. These coping mechanisms vary in terms of the extent of their use, their impact on the user, the impact on others and the frequency of their deployment. Some coping mechanisms are regarded as ‘healthy’ and others as ‘unhealthy’ and some may be a hybrid of the two, dependent on the extent and duration of usage.

Distancing is a coping mechanism. You may distance yourself from a situation and people, but prolonged and extensive distancing may lead to isolation with the associated problems which such isolation can bring. Short-term distancing can allow recovery, re-charging and avoidance of an ongoing harmful situation. Longer-term distancing which is targeted on one or more chief proponents of harm can lead to near complete removal from toxic and harmful influences. No contact of course is a coping mechanism which incorporates distancing as a central tenet of it and is the most effective coping mechanism to apply with regard to your recovery from ensnarement with our kind.

Crying is another coping mechanism. The release of tension, held-grief, feelings of misery often evaporate as a consequence of somebody crying. You may be told ‘have a good cry, you will feel better’ and indeed many people have testified to the beneficial impact of doing so and thus crying achieves release and often acts as a signal to invite comfort from others. It is a coping mechanism deployed by people to deal with a stressful, worrying or hurtful situation.

Self-harming is a further form of coping. The distraction caused by the painful response of cutting (cutting being just one form of self-harming) enables an individual to relieve the pain of certain other feelings, it achieves a release, a distraction and also enables that individual to exert control in circumstances where they feel unable to exert control (or to the extent that would make them feel comfortable). Self-harming whilst a coping mechanism is regarded as a negative form of a coping mechanism.

Expression of feelings. Being able to ‘talk it out’ and ‘air your feelings’ is a coping mechanism also. The ability to talk to someone else who will just listen, even if they offer nothing in response or even just to talk to yourself about how you are feeling (be it generally or in relation to something specific) enables people to experience a sense of release, a lightening of a particular load and it often brings clarity in terms of understanding themselves and finding a way forward.

There are many coping mechanisms that humans deploy – some are conscious and others occur unconsciously.

Narcissism is one such coping mechanism and it is a powerful and invariably hugely effective, although its effectiveness does depend on the school of the narcissist and which particular outcome one is having regard to. The outcome of our narcissism is something that I shall address in a separate article.

Narcissism must maintain the construct (the false self) and imprison the creature (the true self).  Collectively this is the Self-Defence of the Narcissist. This Self-Defence is achieved through the The Prime Aims(fuel, character traits and residual benefits).

Central to this Self-Defence and the achievement of The Prime Aims is control. The narcissist must at all times have control of his or her environment and the people within that environment which of course includes you. Whether you are a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend, a colleague, a relative or a romantic partner. Whether you are a neighbour, a date, sister or brother, that man from the corner store or fiancée – you come within the fuel matrix of the narcissist and you have to be subjected to the control of the narcissist.

This control has to be exerted second by second of each and every day. Every passing moment must be owned and governed by the narcissist. We must exert control all around us, this has to be complete and total as if the very clouds were tethered by us. Why is that?

Because once upon a time the narcissist did not have control.

That lack of control meant the narcissist felt powerless, weak, vulnerable and exposed.

The combination of a genetic predisposition and the imposition of this lack of control created narcissism as the coping mechanism. These two ingredients combined and gave ‘birth’ to narcissism as a means of coping with the world, with the lack of control that the world causes for individuals. Many people have no issue with this lack of control, others have alternative coping mechanisms and then there is us – the narcissists. Around one in six of the human population of this planet became narcissists in order to cope with this loss of control.

Narcissism allows the imposition of control through manipulation. The imposition of control allows us to achieve the Prime Aims. The achievement of the Prime Aims allows our Self-Defence and thus we survive and we thrive.

Narcissism is a coping mechanism.

People believe that abuse is theingredient in the formation of a narcissist. It is an ingredient, yes, but there are two ingredients in the formation of our kind. The first ingredient is the genetic predisposition, if you will this is the fertile soil which provides the basis for the narcissism to grow and flourish. The second ingredient is the lack of control (of which abuse is part of that lack of control) and this is the ‘seed’ which is placed in the fertile soil of the genetic predisposition and thus narcissism ‘grows’ as the coping mechanism. For some, the soil is there but no seed ever arrives and thus no narcissist. For others, there is no soil but there is the seed, but again with one essential ingredient missing, there can be no narcissism.

Genetic predisposition plus lack of control (at a formative stage of life) equals narcissist.

What does this lack of control (at a formative stage of life – i.e. childhood) look like?

  • Abuse. Whether it is physical, emotional, sexual or psychological, any form of abuse towards us amounts to a lack of control. We could not defend ourselves against the abuse and therefore this is a lack of control, over ourselves and over those who meted out abusive harm towards us. The abuse is an act of commission – we were beaten, molested sexually, told we were useless, insulted etc.
  • Isolated. Whether this was being locked in a cupboard under the stairs, prevented from playing with other children, kept apart from other family members, not allowed to participate in group activities of any nature, given silent treatments and treated as if we did not exist, isolating and ostracising us in some form again constituted a lack of control. We were not able to control our own interactions, someone else did this for us and to our detriment. We were controlled by another and thus lacked control.
  • Neglect. Whilst there may not have been abusive acts of commission , there are abusive acts of omission. Therefore we were not given a safe environment, we were not taught effectively (be it about ‘facts’, relationships, behaviour, responsibility), we were not emotionally supported, we were not fed, clothed or protected, we were not shielded from an abuser of commission and/or we could roam where we wanted. Once again we were denied control over ourselves because we were not provided with the assets, resources and tools to achieve effective control over our lives and this neglect (lack of control) exposed us to hurt, pain, disease, injury, loneliness and/or acts of abuse through commission.
  • The Golden Child. Everything we did was lauded and praised. It was invariably held up as a glowing and shining example of brilliance, even when it was not or the praise was excessive for a valid achievement. This meant we lacked control in the sense of earning achievements in a valid fashion. We had greatness thrust upon us without being ready for it, without having earned it and without appreciating it. Everything came to us too easily and this also amounted to a lack of control. We had no control over the outcome from our endeavours, we felt no compulsion to achieve and apply endeavour because whatever we did (bad, mediocre or good) was met with accolade, praise and the lavishing of ‘how brilliant’. We were denied the ability to control our own destiny.
  • Shifting Sands. Where we experienced Shifting Sands we had a lack of control because the environment around us at that formative stage lacked constancy. One day the sun shone and the next day, even though everything else appeared to stay the same to us, there was a thunderstorm. On Monday our painting was declared to be ‘Rembrandt in the making’ (a la Golden Child) and by Friday our painting ‘was the work of a moron wielding a potato for a paintbrush’. The application of black and white thinking by the aggressor created an uncertain environment, one of push and pull, idealisation and devaluation and we had no control whatsoever on which version was going to appear to us. There was a lack of control in our lives through uncertainty, unpredictability and those shifting sands.
  • B Graders. ‘It’s good but not good enough.’ ‘You can do far better.’ ‘You are not trying hard enough.’ ‘You are letting yourself down but moreover you are letting me down.’ These phrases and those similar to it encapsulate the loss of control felt by those who are ‘The B Graders’. Each time the hill was climbed and the summit anticipated, another hill suddenly appeared. The effort was okay, decent enough, acceptable but never that which met with approval. Keep going, learn more, be faster, swim stronger, climb higher, shine brighter. There was no control because we were never allowed a moment to settle, to cherish that which had been achieved and to reflect. We could not establish our own parameters of achievement and satisfaction but instead we were always beholden to the standards of another which ultimate proved to be unobtainable standards and thus we had no control.
  • The Facsimile. We were shaped to be precisely like the aggressor. Sometimes this was entirely at the behest of the aggressor and sometimes we saw how this individual behaved and decided ‘I want that power also’ (usually unconsciously but sometimes, such as was the case for me – consciously). Whilst you may think a conscious decision to copy the aggressor and thus seize power was a form of control, it was not – this was actually a product of the already establishing narcissism and thus a symptom rather than a cause. Where the aggressor caused us to be moulded just like them – forming our opinions, our views, our behaviours, our likes and dislikes, what we wore, what we ate, where we went, what we did and in some instances alongside this there was an unconscious decision to mimic and copy those behaviours and characteristics, we were once again denied control.

Thus, whether we came from an impoverished background, a gilded background, a seemingly run-of-the-mill background, any of those environments had the potential to cause a lack of control in our lives. Take this lack of control and add it to the genetic predisposition and thus our coping mechanism of narcissism was given birth to.

Narcissism became our way of coping with the world.

Narcissism allowed us to exert control.

A lack of control equates to a lack of power.

A lack of control equates to  being vulnerable.

A lack of control equates to being weak.

A lack of control equates to being worthless, meaningless and unimportant.

When we lack control, we start to fade and will no longer exist.

A lack of control now returns us to the lack of control then.

This must never happen for too long and thus we were formed from this lack of control adding to our genetic predisposition and in order to survive and thrive we must never, ever lack control for if this persists, well, then, it ends.

We must have absolute control. And that means absolute control over you, him, her, them but most of all YOU.

84 thoughts on “To Control is to Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation

  1. Freedom says:

    Hg, please answer me is it possible for a person to become narcissistic at the age of 13 after going through a trauma of abandonment, having a healthy childhood?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The individual will not become a narcissist at the age of 13, if they are not already one.
      The individual may be narcissistic but not a narcissist. There is an important distinction between narcissistic and narcissist.

  2. GVM says:

    I can’t see the point on having control.It’s ridiculous. No one has control over everything. For me it must be a heavy chore rather than an asset. Being vulnerable is FANTASTIC; having feelings, being sensitive…are my biggest qualities.

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  4. Leigh says:

    Mr. Tudor, how does the creature present itself in the unaware narcissist? My assumption is that the unaware narcissist doesn’t see it as a creature or even a loss of control. So, does it present itself as self doubt, anxiety, fear of rejection or abandonment? Do you have a book, a logic bulletin, a video that speaks about how the creature feels to the unaware narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This will be addressed in the future work about The Creature.

  5. WiserNow says:

    HG,

    Thank you for your replies. Sorry for going over the same ground. My questioning must be a combination of the empath’s tenacity and truthseeker traits.

    I do accept that a narcissist doesn’t change willingly. I think that may largely be due to an inability to self-reflect in the same way empathic or normal people do.

    In your case though, HG, you are very cognitively aware, so your high level of awareness means you can self-reflect. I can see that your motivational drive for self aggrandisement, together with a lack of emotional empathy, precludes behavioural change at an ’emotional’ level.

    Thank you again for your patience in reading my comments and providing answers.

  6. WiserNow says:

    HG,

    You sound very sure that it would not work. What makes you so certain?

    Say, for instance, you imagine yourself stranded alone on a desert island in the middle of a vast ocean with no outside help or hope of rescue. The island has abundant food and building materials, so you have all the material resources to stay alive. If you were to stay there, completely alone for say, a year, how do you think you would survive? If you only had yourself for company and needed to motivate your ‘inner self’ to keep going, how would you relate to your own ‘self’?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have explained repeatedly before why it would not work.

    2. Liza says:

      In my opinion he wouldn’t even consider sitting around and being introspective, his brain would be like “curent objective: find fuel ! “.

      If we consider a smart narcissist, he would throw all his energy in creating a reasonable plan to get out of there and go to a place where he can find fuel, and if there is really no way to escape, he will have a fuel crisis and end up taking bad decisions like traying to escape by swiming and die either drowned or by desydration, or let himself deperish and die slowly from self neglect.

      If we consider a not verry bright narcissist, they will directly go to the panicking part and waste all their energy either by raging a runing around without any structured plan or hold a pity party and keep dweling on how unlucky they are, anyway, theire fuel reserve will be used up faster and again a fuel crisis.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        This was my comment in Jan 2017 on the probability of an isolation exercise for HG:

        I envision the following scenario for HG:
        He will rise after a well rested 4 hour sleep and look into the mirror he has fashioned out of individual pieces of mica in the sand. Leave the hut he has persuaded the flying monkeys to construct for him from the most exotic woods on the Island to go out and charm the coconuts off of the trees while Parrots repeat “All hail HG-Lord of all” and lizards simultaneously burst into tears. When they arrive to retrieve him after the project he will claim to have invented camping, discovered the Island itself, and charge them with trespassing.

        It still stands.

        1. WiserNow says:

          NarcAngel,

          I think your vision is entirely plausible, knowing that HG is an Ultra narcissist . . and he may be the *only* Ultra in the living world as we know it . . .

          *backing away slowly while whispering, “All hail HG – Lord of all”

      2. WiserNow says:

        Hi Liza,

        I think you’re probably right when it comes to the different schools. It’s easier to think about what each school would do, rather than think about what narcs would do in general.

        Yes, with the Lesser, he’d probably rage at being stuck on a remote island all alone with no-one else there who was more responsible. He’d probably use a piece of wood washed up on the beach to bash the coconuts out of a palm tree, just because they are there.

        The Mid-ranger would probably wade out into the ocean yelling for help until he got knee-deep. Then, realising that his shouting was pointless, he’d slump down in the water on his knees, sobbing uncontrollably, blaming God and the universe for causing the situation.

        The Greater, having more cognitive ability, may at least look for a piece of stone and gather some twigs to try and start a fire. He might also see what food was available and where to shelter for the night. I think the Greater would survive the longest, depending on how long his fuel levels would last.

      3. Liza says:

        NarcAngel,

        Haha i love how you had evrything scheduled, my biggest mistake was that i didn’t take into account the fact that earthly rules do not apply to him, i had the audacity to immagine how he would react based on how i would react if i’m depraved of candy (my fuel), mea maxima culpa.

        Hello WiserNow,

        I also think that a greater would manage better but not so much due to his intelligence but more to his awarnens ( although intelligence and awareness seem to be related). I mean in the situation where they are depraved of fuel sources and forced into isolation, a greater would know why they feel bad and keep a certain degree of control, while an MRN or a lesser would live it as a big non negotiable “NO” from the univers. the situation you suggested made me thing of the video fuel crisis.

        1. WiserNow says:

          Hi Liza,

          Thank you for your comment. I’ll look up the video Fuel Crisis and have a listen.

  7. Chihuahuamum says:

    Hi HG…I was watching a movie the other day and it reminded me of your mother the matrinarc. I was curious did she favor you over your father when he was alive? The father in this movie never stood up to his wife and was a doormat enabler, thanks!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Sometimes she did so as part of the triangulation.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi HG…thank you for your reply. I had to recall which movie i was referring to lol I kind of suspected your mother would do this based on what youve wrote about your dad.
        My mother does this with my stepdad and brother. My stepdad is just as sick tho and has such low self esteem he looks up to my brother and mimics him. I think my stepdads a cerebral midranger.
        In the movie she treats her son almost as love interest although no incest takes place. Its very icky how she idolizes her son.

  8. WiserNow says:

    “To control is to cope” . . . hmm . . .

    I can imagine the empaths reading this – especially the women – will think of HG as a little boy being neglected and abused, and they’ll think, “oh, how awful that must have been. I feel so sad for HG.”

    It’s a natural reaction. However, it’s also influenced greatly by emotional thinking. I also ‘feel’ for HG. I can see that the treatment he received as a child was unfair, inappropriate and abusive.

    After learning about narcissism for several years, my knowledge and understanding is at a point where I can also see past the empathic emotional reaction. I can also think of HG’s ‘true self’ and how that ‘true self’ protected itself to cope.

    We all have a ‘true self’. Defining what a true self actually *is* is not as simple as it may seem at first. A ‘true self’ is not a static or concrete thing. It changes and evolves. It adapts to the environment to learn and to survive. It is sometimes referred to as the ‘soul’ or ‘heart’ or ‘spirit’ of a person. It is a biologically innate predisposition, however, it is undeveloped at birth.

    A person’s ‘true self’ is always there throughout life. It is always an evolving and changing part of us. It is never fully ‘complete’. To believe it has an ‘ultimate’ finished form is untrue. We are constantly evolving and learning and changing to ‘fit’ our environment and to be ‘alive’ right up until our death.

    So, going back to HG as a little boy . . . HG was born with a true self. His mother’s harsh treatment and lack of ‘love’, or healthy attachment, caused him to create a ‘false self’ to cope. The false self springs out of the true self. The true self is still there, only it is subconsciously and instinctively ‘changed’, to cope with the environment.

    HG became a narcissist. So, his ‘true self’ already had the ‘natural’ inclination towards narcissistic traits. His mother’s narcissism may have been abusive and inappropriate for a child, however, it was actually a ‘good fit’ with the natural predisposition towards narcissism.

    Don’t get me wrong . . . I am *not* condoning or minimising HG’s mother’s cruelty or abuse – not at all. Although I see this in a ‘logical’ way, I still feel compassion for the little boy that was abused. My view is that all children need love, true empathic and respectful care, and healthy ‘joyful’ attachment with their caregivers, creating an environment of safety and reliability.

    HG’s natural true self was inclined to subconsciously react in a self-protective, aggressive ‘narcissistic’ manner to ‘cope’ with the abuse. This is where the ‘false self’ comes in. The ‘false self’, driven by the natural predisposition towards narcissistic traits, became *even more* narcissistic. At some unconscious, instinctive level, HG instinctively went in the direction of narcissism. That *direction* was determined by his ‘true self’, i.e. his natural predisposition.

    With a ‘true self’ that already has a low level of empathic traits, the inclination, together with what appears to be ‘rewarding’ external behaviours, towards narcissistic aggressiveness, caused the undeveloped and low level of empathy, that may or may not have been in the ‘true self’, to atrophy until the empathic traits ‘faded away’.

    So, getting back to this post and the pulling of an empath’s heart-strings . . . Yes, HG had to cope with the harsh treatment of a narcissist for a mother. However, to feel an empathic sense of sadness towards him and to want to heal and fix his wounded ‘true self’ will not work. That is something he needs to do himself, if he can tap into that innate ‘true self’ at all.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have no need of doing that and even if I did, it would not work.

      1. Kiki says:

        You’re back 😊😊😊
        Missed you Mr Tudor

        Kiki

        1. Violetta says:

          Kiki:

          But what a wealth of material in the meantime! Still haven’t caught up.

    2. Leigh says:

      WiserNow, I’ve often thought about this too. What if the false self and the true self merged? Could there be change then? Could the narcissism be cured? I always come to the same conclusion. In the case of the narcissist, I don’t believe the true self has empathy either. The emotional empathy was never given a chance to develop. So even if the true self could take over the false self, it wouldn’t matter because there is still no emotional empathy. Without emotional empathy, you still have narcissism. Mr. Tudor is a perfect example of that. He is high in cognitive empathy. I mean, he actually understands us better than we do. But even with having cognitive empathy, there’s still no emotional empathy. He knows his true self and he still has no desire to change it. He sees no need. I believe there is no emotional empathy within the false self or the true self so how do you tap into something that just isn’t there? If there is cognitive empathy, it is manufactured. It doesn’t come from within. So sadly, I believe, even if the false self & true self could by chance merge, the narcissism would still be there.

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Leigh,
        This concept, that the narcissist cannot change, is one that can literally bring me to tears. I understand the not wanting to change aspect, then it’s a choice they’re making. But, the not able to change, that just gets me. “That lack of control meant the narcissist felt powerless, weak, vulnerable and exposed.” – this line stood out to me this time in reading the article. I can relate to being so overwhelmingly fearful of something that it paralyzes me and also causes me to come up with excuses/reasons why I am making such a choice. This is the closest I have been able to come in understanding why they can’t change, and I know this is not quite it. Thank you for the suggestion that the true self also would not have emotional empathy, even if only because it was never developed, that is helpful.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi AV, I know what you mean. The fact that they can’t change always made me feel bad for them. Its not there fault so how can I blame them for there behavior? Forgive them father, for they know not what they do. I often ask myself, If I could help fill the void for them, shouldn’t I? Then it dawns on me, thats emotional thinking and its what the narc wants. The truth it doesn’t matter how much I fill the void or if I meet every one of the prime aims, it will never be enough.

          You said, “I can relate to being so overwhelmingly fearful of something that it paralyzes me and also causes me to come up with excuses/reasons why I am making such a choice.”

          Ooof! That’s my life right now in a nutshell. I’m paralyzed, I’m stuck in cement. I’m scared of something but I don’t know what.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh,
            I feel paralyzed right now sometimes too. It’s a holding pattern I suppose, for me. I am anxious for it to pass, I feel like life is passing me by and I can’t quite join in yet. But I can’t afford to join in prematurely and have more failed experiences with narcissists, so, better just to hold off. But it makes me very sad sometimes. And I do know what I’m afraid of, being ensnared again! I am more afraid of that than of being alone, but being alone is getting old. It’s a conundrum.

            We can’t fill their void. I do accept that. Even as I want to try, I know I can’t. But, yes, that drive to try is so strong!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hi AV, when I read “I feel like life is passing me by and I can’t quite join in yet” – it reminded me of something I typed earlier this year but had not posted it (especially in relation to being a victim of narcissism and also can be viewed from possibly a narcissistic perspective as maybe the start of narcissism and it never stopping – if you can understand)……

            It’s like when a new roundabout is constructed, switched on and left switched on – even throughout the seasons of the year, in all weathers, never being switched off, the roundabout ends up getting rusted, twisted and dismantling – because of lack of maintenance without a break to also carry out any repairs ie defective wiring etc.

          3. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, yes, this. You understood well what I meant. I feel that in all my life there have only been two brief times I have taken the correct exit off the roundabout, as you put it, and both times ended up u-turning right back onto it! This time, I want to do it right and get off it for good…so…patience…difficult as it is…eyes on the big picture…. must hang on and persevere…:)

          4. Asp Emp says:

            AV, get off the carousel! 😉 You will get to the stage where you need to be, eventually.

          5. A Victor says:

            Okay, I’m trying! 😂

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, is it possible you’re afraid of change and/or the unknown? I mean, what if you make a change and life is not better after? That would paralyse me, in fact I think it’s what does. The other thing i thought of, are you afraid of hurting your husband? That kept me with mine until things got absolutely out of control. Whatever it is for you, I believe we figure these things out in the timing meant for us, when we are able to handle them even if we might still be surprised by them. Being here, learning, we will succeed. 🙂

          7. Leigh says:

            Is it possible I’m afraid of change and/or the unknown? Yes.

            What if I make a change and life isn’t better? #truth

            Am I afraid of hurting my husband? Not really. May God forgive me, but I think I might feel joy about that. As I write that, it terrifies me. I want him to suffer. I don’t care. All my empathy for him is gone.

            With that said, I’m also afraid of his reaction. I don’t know what he will do. If I leave, I’m taking away all of the Prime Aims. Every single one! I have to be careful. I have to figure out a way to leave but not upset the apple cart too much. I have Mr. Tudor’s book, Getting Out, sitting in my cart but I still haven’t checked it out yet. I don’t know what I’m waiting for.

            Lastly and most importantly, I’m afraid to leave my children there. They will suffer the consequences of me leaving and if they live with him, it will only be worse. They are adults but I still need to protect them and keep them safe.

            Honestly, I wish he would leave me. It would just make life so much easier.

          8. A Victor says:

            Oh yes it’s would. But the likelihood of him leaving sounds pretty low. You are really giving it some good thought, weighing all your options. Maybe if you get there book it will give you some direction?

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Leigh, I read your comment – have you had a consult with HG in relation to what you have said? One plus, your children being adults & I can understand why you would say you say about keeping them safe & protected. Why not come up with your own ‘Prime Aims’? -your own life goals, for yourself? Your children, as adults, can still be part of your life. Have a think about it and put your needs first. I hope you sort something out for yourself, you deserve it 🙂

          10. Leigh says:

            AV, I’ve been thinking about this alot lately. I’m having a conversation with LET on another feed that has got me thinking about intent and motivation within narcissists and within myself. For me, my actions are intentional but the motivation behind them are different then the narcissist. I maintain a facade & I manipulate. So does the narcissist. The difference is I’m fully aware of my intention to maintain the facade and manipulate. The motivation behind it is to protect myself, my family & even the narcissist. When the narcissist is maintaining the facade & manipulating, he has no idea he’s doing it. He doesn’t intend to maintain the facade or manipulate. Its his narcissism motivating him to do it. So wishing me a Happy Birthday on social media but not to my face is him maintaining the facade. The narcissism (subconscious) did it to control me by devaluing me & control his followers on social media by making them think he’s a wonderful husband that loves his wife. However, the conscious mind makes him think he just did it because he loves me and he wants everyone to know how good he is to me.

            Whereas, if I did the exact same thing, it would mean that I intended to hurt that person. Posting it on social media would just be another way to rub it in their face that they weren’t good enough to wish a happy birthday directly to their face. Plus, on top of that, its going to make everyone believe we are happy.

            Now, when reading that, it looks like I’m worse because I know what I’m doing. The difference is that I know how it would make another person feel because I have empathy. They don’t realize how it makes you feel because they don’t have empathy. If I got to the point that I actually did this, then that means I intentionally wanted to hurt you. I set out to do it. They really don’t set out to do it. They just really need someone to fill the void, to fill the prime aims for them. That’s it.

          11. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, yes, our motives are very different from the narcissists. I totally did the same thing regarding the facade, as far as my marriage, and for reasons similar to yours. And my ex did the same as you describe. The consistencies with us and the narcissists, the patterns that are so alike, are what help me hang on to the reality of what I’ve been learning about the last 6 months. It has been such a shift, sometimes my mind, or my ET, tries to tell me this is all pretend. But, then the similarities bring it back into focus. Anyway, it doesn’t look worse because you know what you’re doing, not in my book. You are real, that is good. And if you did that to someone, they likely would have deserved it, and you’d risk feeling pretty bad afterward because of your empathy. Yes, the narcissists are shallow and fake, only looking out for themselves. We can’t compare us looking bad to their looking bad. I hope you’re doing well. Thanks for the chat. 🙂

          12. WhoCares says:

            Leigh,

            “What if I make a change and life isn’t better? #truth”

            Excuse my jumping in, but –
            what if you make a change and life IS better?

            It is never going to get better with him – only a downward trajectory. Guaranteed.

          13. JB says:

            Leigh, you said you wish he would leave you, it would make life easier. I am like this, not wanting to make big decisions myself for fear of what will happen, but if the decision is made for me, I am better because I just get on with it when the shit hits the fan. Can I ask, is there a way you can consciously stop fulfilling the prime aims so this happens, i.e. he leaves you instead of the other way round?

            HG, what do you think? Is this not a good idea/not even possible?

          14. BC30 says:

            Hi Leigh! I’m going to butt in with my two cents, but you can easily tell me to buzz off.

            What if… maybe…. just maybe… ✨the grass is greener on the other side✨?

            But have you to leap and let go, plan and steel for it, but do it. You know what it’s like on this side, but how many times have I written on this very blog:

            “The grass is greener on the other side because the narc isn’t over there fucking it up.” 😂

            😘😘😘

            You can always, always change your thought around any circumstance.

          15. Leigh says:

            AV, Asp Emp, Who Cares, BC30, thank you everyone! Yes, I know it would be better on the other side. It still scares the heck out of me. I’m afraid of how he will react. There have been times in the past when his fury has been heated. I can’t leave my children in a volatile situation. I finally bought Mr. Tudor’s book, Getting Out. I’m going to read it this week.

            You guys are always welcome to jump in. Your opinions ALWAYS help!

            Asp Emp, I’m considering a consult. I want to read Getting Out first. Plus, I have to stop being a scaredy cat too.

          16. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I’m glad you got the book! The consults are amazing! If you decide to do one you will be very glad you did!

        2. Violetta says:

          I think it’s like puberty. You can’t skip it and go back later.

          Girls who engage in intense training often have delayed cycles. The fat/muscle ratio gets to a point where there isn’t enough estrogen (which is fat-based) for sexual development. Among gymnasts, for example, Jennifer Sey had her first cycle at 20, Kathy Johnson at 25. Some never have them, or may have fertility problems later. If they cut out dairy to make weight, they may have osteoporosis at 30 (as one Joffrey dancer did), which will be worsened by bodies that think they’re in menopause.

          Girls who started serious training after having cycles for a couple of years (which would be impossible now, but you could still do it when I was competing) will not have such issues unless they develop an eating disorder. Their bodies have already completed certain phases. They may lose weight or even gain it (muscle weighs more than fat), if they’re not buxom to begin with, their breasts may flatten out for a time, but their bodies won’t go back to pre-pubescent form. Even those who develop eating disorders after this point are still stuck with post-pubescent hips and pelvic bones, to their chagrin.

          There’s a limit, therefore, on what they can achieve, in terms of gymnastics and figure skating, because the current movements are easier for an undeveloped body. However, look at footage of Larisa Latynina or Peggy Fleming, and you’ll.see this wasn’t always the case. Some 19th-century ballet dancers were downright porky-looking by our standards:

          https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3T42pAuel826BrdLOB8-ZAYW_gSC89zw3fw&usqp=CAU

          https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlVubEudBUBRCuzuLUdPAN37n8f51OYL77WA&usqp=CAU

          https://johnpwalshblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Legnani-and-Preobrajenska-in-1899-922×1024.jpg

          A narc’s capacity for empathy or guilt is like puberty. There’s a window to develop it, or at least not to have full-blown Narcissism present, and that window is past. If HG hadn’t had an Evil Bitch-Monster From Hell for a mother and a father who couldn’t or wouldn’t stand up to her, his predisposition to Narcissism might never have come into play, but now he can’t go back and do it over. Someone on another post discussed how the brain is bathed in different chemicals, just as our bodies are affected by different hormones. The brain HG has, regardless of his obvious intelligence, will have been exposed to chemicals or electrical.signals that permanently affected synaptic connections and wave patterns at critical.phases in development.

          It’s not a perfect analogy–some women going on the pill have suddenly developed boobs at the tender age of 40–but you get the idea.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you Violetta, that is a very helpful analogy! That makes so much sense! It takes it from the outward, that we can see, to the inward, that which we can’t see but is just as much affected by elements at certain stages. Thank you so much! You probably just saved HG from a lot of tears! Haha!

          2. Kiki says:

            Hi Violetta

            Many of today’s top ballet dancers are not thin anymore.
            Natalia Opisova and Marianela Nunez Misty Copeland for example.
            Today top ballet dancers are very very muscular but not skinny like models.
            Of course there will always be the skinny ones but as a rule now dancers are lean but very muscular through the legs but not bulky due to the steps and training.
            Kiki

          3. Violetta says:

            Kiki:

            I am glad to learn that. The Balanchine body was the ideal.for decades. It kept many women out of classical dance and often destroyed the ones who made it in.

          4. Violetta says:

            A Victor:

            It is natural for those who’ve found help on Narcsite to wish to show their gratitude. Those of us who’ve tried therapy know it costs far more and the results are frequently pathetic.

            Since we can’t “save” HG from Narcissism (and he doesn’t view himself as needing “saving”), let us be realistic about what he does want: a legacy. Spread the word to friends and family, mention the POTUS Narcissist and Royal Narcissist series in our comments on relevant news stories, request that local libraries stock his work. If you know your dear friend A would resist any suggestion that her significant other B is a narcissist, mention that HG’s work helped you get over your entanglement with C, and lend her your well-thumbed copy of Black Flag.

            In doing these things, we can not only show our gratitude to HG in a way that makes sense to him (offers of first-born children or wild, kinky sex are probably unimpressive: he doesn’t want kids and has probably already done things you’ve never heard of), but we can also help other people escape the fuckheads who are making their lives miserable.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            HG approves.

          6. A Victor says:

            Violetta:

            After giving your response some thought, I have come to the conclusion that there was a misunderstanding. I was referring to my tears in a consult with HG regarding this topic, not his tears, not of saving him. I agree with your assessment on how to spread his legacy.

          7. Violetta says:

            A Victor:

            I understood your post to refer to your tears, or the tears of any readers who want to “rescue” HG, and answered accordingly.

          8. A Victor says:

            Violetta:

            If you understood it was my tears, you understood half of what I intended. The half you did not understand was that the tears would not be for HG, I understand and respect his opinion regarding this with regard to himself, but rather for the narcissists in my life that I know and love. Also I suppose for narcissists as a whole, which would include HG, but it was not stated with him specifically in mind. It was really stated with regard to my own frustration at the permanency of the state of narcissism in general.

          9. Violetta says:

            A Victor:

            Fortunately, I don’t love any of the Narcissists who are presently in my life, so I have no tears to spare for them. I owe gratitude to HG, but I don’t owe the others a goddamned thing.

          10. A Victor says:

            Violetta:

            Then you are blessed indeed.

            Thank you for allowing me to explain my original comment.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Hi Leigh,

        Your thoughts about the true self and false self ‘merging’ got me thinking.

        The whole concept of having a ‘true self’ and ‘false self’ has been on my mind recently and I wrote my comment above to get my thoughts out into words. This is a place where I can do that and if people respond with their thoughts and ideas, then that’s great. I enjoy reading and thinking about a variety of opinions. My comment wasn’t intended to focus on HG alone, but rather on narcissists in general. It was easier to write the comment thinking about HG as one real person to focus on.

        I think you’re right about a narcissist not being able to access a ‘true self’ if there is no emotional empathy there. Without that inner emotional neutral or comforting ‘space’ there is no ‘foundation’ to work with.

        When I read your comment about the ‘merging’, it made me think about my own self-reflection in relation to a ‘true self’. I think the whole concept of a true self is a bit murky and difficult to define in logical terms. Some people refer to ‘integrating the inner child’. Then there are those who talk about defining your own personal values and principles that feel ‘right’ to you. There seem to be different ways to ‘access’ your ‘true self’.

        When I think of my ‘true self’ merging with parts that are ‘false’, it doesn’t feel like ‘merging’. Instead, it feels like a process of deciding to do things differently and then consciously practicing the different actions. It can be small things that nobody may even notice, but it’s a conscious willingness to change. So, in that sense, it’s not really ‘merging’ but more like ‘shedding’ what doesn’t feel authentic.

        That makes me think that the concept of a ‘false self’ doesn’t quite properly fit the instinctive behaviors used since childhood either. It’s not really a false self, but more like an ‘amplification’ of the true self.

        Getting back to the authentic true self is a process of turning the dial back to remove the ‘amplification’. To me it feels like ‘taking away’ those behaviours or instinctive defences that were learned in childhood. Those defences were necessary to maintain close family relationships in what was often a hostile environment. However, those behaviours are not helpful for an adult in social situations that are no longer hostile.

        Each one of us has their own unique way of perceiving their own ‘inner self’. For narcissists, it sounds like this is a very frightening thing to do. If the ‘inner self’ is perceived as a monster or creature waiting to attack and destroy you, I can see how that would be something to avoid confronting at all.

        1. Leigh says:

          WiserNow, you got me thinking even more now. I don’t see myself as having a true self and false self. I only see me. However, what I portray to the world is very different then the real me. Unfortunately, I’m still in ensnarement. I know its not the right choice. I’m getting there, I promise. But because I’m still ensnared, I still have to maintain a facade to the outside world. Also, my whole life has been pulled out from underneath me so I don’t know who I can truly trust anymore so I keep a wall up. But I’m very aware of the fact that I don’t show people the real me. I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a false self though. I know my true self. I just choose not to show it to people. The narcissist thinks his narcissism is his true self. When, in fact, its the false self. That’s why I say, even if they could bring the true self and the false self together, it wouldn’t mean a hill of beans because neither developed empathy or awareness. The false self (narcissism) split off before the child could develop empathy.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Leigh, your comment was interesting to read, I have to say that I understand and can relate to your saying “I don’t see myself as having a true self and false self. I only see me”, because I had a ‘darkness’ of my own yet did not develop into a narcissist. So, thank you for your comment.

          2. Leigh says:

            #truth Asp Emp! That’s exactly it. We had a darkness of our own and yet did not develop into a narcissist.

          3. WiserNow says:

            Leigh,

            Your situation makes sense to me seeing that you’re still in ensnarement. Being in that situation is like walking through a field of landmines. Every step feels like a strategic and deliberate process of decision-making. It feels exhausting, and it’s also impossible to avoid every mine or prevent them from exploding. It is very much a case of needing to protect yourself. I can understand the ‘wall’ you’re keeping up too. While being ensnared, and also being aware of what you’re dealing with, your ‘defences’ are constantly up.

            Before I became aware, my instinctive ‘natural’ defences were to either ‘fight’ or ‘fawn’. These defences then became constantly used behaviours, and then, they became a long-term, very ingrained part of my personality. Now I know that these behaviours of ‘fight’ or ‘fawn’ are not a ‘natural’ part of my ‘true self’. These behaviours sprung out of my ‘true self’, but they are not ‘natural’ innate personality traits that describe my ‘authentic’ self.

            It took me a long time of pretty intense self-reflection to go back in time and try to think very carefully about actual memories and how particular events would have impacted me as a small child. I think this is something that needs to be done when you are alone in a very calm, silent situation that allows you to be mindful of your emotions and memories. It’s like meditation but instead of emptying your mind of thoughts, it’s more like focusing on emotions and allowing them to rise to the surface and then trying to understand them in a non-judgemental way.

            It sounds to me like your situation is still very much one of high ’emotional thinking’. It’s difficult to switch from emotional thinking to a calm meditative state. It’s not like flicking a switch. It takes time to get rid of the emotional thinking. Being in the same environment that caused the defensive behaviours means that the defensive behaviours will continue.

            In the meantime though, it might help you to meditate and be alone on a regular basis, especially in calm tranquil places away from the ‘ensnarement zone’. The freedom from emotional thinking plus intentional focus on your emotions and inner self will give you peace and it might also give you ‘cognitive’ ideas about how to resist the manipulations and provocations from the narcissist.

            Whatever happens, please keep thinking that you will be okay. You have come this far, so you have already overcome a lot, and you have the ability and strength to keep going 🙂

          4. Leigh says:

            Yes, I guess my ET is high. I’ve been ensnared since birth so I have no way of determining if I’m thinking logically or emotionally. I’ve been with my husband for 36 years and both my parents are narcissists too.

            Luckily, my husband spends very little time with me. We rarely go out together and we don’t spend time together while at home either. Plus I’ve been lucky through COVID, my job is essential so I’ve been working this whole time and go into the office 3 times a week. Those 3 days are great because I have my own office and I’m left alone alot.

            As for dealing with the manipulations, its second nature to me. I’ve been doing it my whole life. I just didn’t know it. I always came from a place of trying to maintain peace. Coming here gave me awareness of what I was dealing with. It has given me clarity. Each day I learn more and more.

            Now, I have to get to a point where I figure out how to get out and stay out.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s great that you found HG and became aware of what you’re dealing with. Once you learn about this subject and how you have been affected, it makes a huge difference.

            It’s also helpful that you spend little time with your husband and are alone at work as well. Like you, I’ve dealt with narcissists my whole life too, and I understand how beneficial it is to have time alone. It’s necessary for clearing your mind and to bring you back to a more grounded emotional state.

            I can understand how difficult it can be to get out and stay out or to go no contact when it comes to your close family or the people you live with. In many cases, it’s not easy. For instance, I can’t go no contact with my elderly parents and sibling. It’s just not something I can do. At times when I have deliberately had very low contact, I have felt very sad and guilty. I know very well that the dynamic is unhealthy for me and I’m always going to be the family scapegoat. However, to go completely no contact would be excruciatingly painful emotionally, and I just can’t do it. I couldn’t live with the decision if I did.

            Instead, I’ve learned to have stronger boundaries and a stronger sense of self. I limit the time I spend with them and I don’t get caught up in any kind of emotional dramas or arguments or manipulations. It’s all very civil, however, I keep myself at an arms distance emotionally and I’m now much more careful about what I tell them about myself.

            HG’s advice about getting out and staying out is spot on and very necessary when you’re in a state of severe control or when your mental health is at a very low point. Total no contact may not always be possible, plus there will always be narcissists or narcissistic people you need to deal with at some point or other. It’s essential to keep learning and to keep being aware about your own emotions and reactions and how you can defend yourself in all kinds of situations.

            Best wishes to you Leigh. I hope you keep learning from HG and everyone else here. From what you’ve said so far, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things. 🙂

          6. A Victor says:

            WiserNow, thank you for sharing your experience with your family and how you’ve chosen to handle it. That is an issue I also have and hearing different ways people choose to deal with it is helpful.

          7. WiserNow says:

            You’re very welcome A Victor, it’s a pleasure 😊😘

            I think all of us have very different experiences if we look at them closely, even though our experiences are similar when looked at from a distance. It’s like looking at them with a zoom lens either zooming in or zooming out. The same with the way we choose to deal with those experiences. We all react or feel differently according to our own mindset or worldview or stage of learning.

            The way you have worded your comment about “different ways people choose to deal” with things is an important or pertinent point. The ‘choosing’ can be either conscious or unconscious. It can depend on instinct, conditioning, knowledge, awareness, reflection, etc. The ‘different ways’ are subject to each person’s personal response to the situation at hand. It depends on the people involved, the situation, history, timing, etc.

            All of these things come into it, so a ‘choice’ may seem like a simple or spontaneous or autonomous decision. However, a ‘choice’ is actually the manifestation or culmination of so many things that all come together at a particular point in time.

            The way I am dealing with my family at the moment comes after learning about this subject for a while. This has helped me understand each member of my family better, as well as myself. I have also developed a different sense of self with different boundaries and this has taken a while to do. I think that each of our reactions and choices need to be taken in light of what feels most genuinely comfortable or ‘safe’ for each of us individually.

            I agree with you that it’s very interesting to hear the different ways people choose to deal with things. I find it very helpful and also enriching and valuable to hear the perspectives of everyone here.

          8. A Victor says:

            WiserNow, yes, the word choice, and your thoughts around it, are much how I see it.
            For me, many choices are fluid, adaptable as needed, as I gain more understanding or knowledge about a situation. Seeing other’s choices and hearing how they arrived at their decision broadens my understanding and gives me more options to consider. Thanks again!

          9. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome A Victor, and thank you very much for your kind words. It helps me to read your comments and everyone else’s too. Plus, it makes me happy to think I can help someone else think about things in a certain way or reach a different kind of understanding.

            Sometimes, when I write a comment here on narcsite, I feel very hesitant about what I say or how I say it, because I genuinely don’t want to make anyone feel like they are ‘wrong’, or that I am blaming them, or that I think I know better. I feel very self-conscious about doing that, maybe because I know how isolating and hurtful it feels to be ‘blamed’ for something that wasn’t my fault or that I meant with good intentions.

            So, if I say something that sounds like or makes anyone feel like I’m wading in with my two cents to whack someone over the head with, please know that I really don’t want to make anyone feel like that. I’m doing it with as much thoughtfulness and tact as I can and I truly don’t wish to make anyone feel judged or blamed. I think that even though I do have empathy, sometimes I need to reflect on how to verbalise my thoughts in a way that is more aware of how my words will come across to the reader.

            Thanks again A Victor, for your kind comment 😊😘

          10. A Victor says:

            Hi WiserNow, no worries, I haven’t taken anything you’ve said in a bad way, ever I don’t think, even if not to me. If I indicated that, it was not intentional. I have many of the same concerns when I post, totally get that. We don’t want to upset anyone, we’re empaths! I appreciate your input on the blog very much! And, you are welcome!

          11. Leigh says:

            I hope I don’t offend anyone. I’m sorry if I do.

            Fucking A Asp Emp!

            You said, “‘because I had a darkness’ of my own yet did not develop into a narcissist” So absolutely true!

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Leigh, sorry I missed this – thank you for saying so 🙂

          13. Leigh says:

            Its ok. I think something is wrong with WordPress. I’m not getting all my notifications either.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh…….. “computer says no”…. that’s why….. (it’s a quotation from a TV programme, no longer aired).

          15. Leigh says:

            LOL!

          16. Leigh says:

            WiserNow, I’ve made the choice to stay for now. I’ve been reading “Getting Out” and there is no way to escape without putting my children in harms way. Unless they come with me or get their own places to live. The thought of him going into a fury and not knowing what he will do, frightens the hell out of me. I can’t put my children in jeopardy. I have to get myself into a position where I can protect them too. So for now, I put my poker face on and keep playing the game. Hes a victim narcissist and as long as I’m still taking care of him, he won’t have any idea that I’m planning my escape. He really isn’t that sharp even though he thinks he is.

          17. WiserNow says:

            Leigh,
            It sounds like you have considered your options and have decided on a particular course to take. Sometimes a ‘decision’ takes time to carry out and it’s a process rather than an ‘action’. Or, in other words, the ‘decision’ is a series of actions. Change doesn’t always just ‘happen’ quickly. It takes a while to get the right things to fall into place to see the actual ‘change’.

            When there are children involved in a relationship with a narcissist, it makes me think it’s a much more difficult and ‘strategic’ decision to change or ‘escape’. I don’t have children myself, so I can’t relate personally, however, I can imagine how much more difficult it is. You need to consider not only your own safety and well-being, but that of young people who depend on you. I feel for you and I’m sorry you need to deal with all this. Life and family ‘should’ be a lot more simple and rewarding than it is when dealing with a narc, that’s for sure.

            Good luck with your situation Leigh. I hope things turn out better for you as soon as possible ☺️😘

          18. Leigh says:

            Thank you WiserNow. Luckily for me my children are adults and understand our situation. They do still live with me and my priority has to be to protect them. If I left them here they would suffer the consequences and then I’m no better than the narc.

        2. FYC says:

          Very revealing.

          1. WiserNow says:

            Hi FYC,

            I hope you’re well. What is it that makes you say that?

        3. Melmel says:

          Leigh and Wiser Now,
          You guys are the bomb.

          The concept of either “integrating” or “dialling down” instinctive childhood responses… I think it’s both. Integrating – because our instinctive childhood responses were both discouraged and punished… so we suppressed them. We stopped responding how we instinctively felt because it was dangerous. We need to recognize and honour those childhood instincts and integrate them into our adult relationships… to re-parent what we didn’t get as a child. If I validate the response, allow it to occur, and give it space to play out, my inner child will grow and finally permit and encourage me to “dial down” the intensity of the behaviour that results from the instinct that we are now allowing ourselves to acknowledge.

          I’m learning that creating boundaries for the first time, and being curious and allowing my intuition and instincts come to the fore are making for quite prickly and uncomfortable behaviour. I don’t go out of my way to be polite to people that invade or trample on my boundaries. Once I get more practice, I will be able to both identify and acknowledge the instinctual reaction to a boundary violation, AND I will be able to dial down the response so I’m not such a bitchy cow when they occur.

          Just the identification and acknowledgment step is helping the bad feelings resolve quicker. That rush of neurohormones and physical activation/dissociation doesn’t last as long – because I am not continuing to engage in a toxic interaction. They come at me with their malice and as soon as I know, I go. No more apologizing for something that isn’t my fault, or trying to explain my position, just to be polite or see some “resolution” in the exchange. Also I’m Canadian so it’s really a cultural thing as well… walking away is seen as a little rude.

          1. Leigh says:

            Melmel, I’m a New Yorker and we have no problem with walking away or ignoring people, especially when they are rude.

          2. WiserNow says:

            Thank you Melmel. Your point about ‘integrating’ and ‘dialling down’ are very interesting and make sense. Yes, I agree, it’s a process of both happening together.

            In childhood, during the stages of development, ‘healthy’ progress is promoted by a safe, consistent and ‘reliable’ environment. An environment that does not feel that way to a child – either consciously or subconsciously – will result in some kind of ‘unhealthy’ progress (even though ‘survival’ or ‘nature’ has evolved to make it happen, so therefore, is it ‘unhealthy’ in reality?)

            The ‘problem’ in this is that the unconscious or instinctive ‘unhealthy’ behaviours that are learned in childhood stay with the person into adulthood. They can’t be changed – or can’t be changed easily or quickly – because they are ingrained and because we can’t start over and do it all again a second time knowing what we know from the first time.

            What makes things even worse is that children learn ‘attachment’ behaviours that stay with them too. Babies are ‘imprinted’ with an emotional or instinctive response to ‘attach’ to the first ‘caregiver’ the child knew or developed a bond with. So, later in life, the same kind of person as the initial caregiver feels subconsciously familiar, even though the attachment may be unhealthy or even dangerous. It is difficult (or maybe even impossible) to completely ‘unlearn’ this attachment response as an adult.

            Also, as you say, the cultural aspects come into play too. A person learns, or is more inclined to behave in ways that are ‘acceptable’ or ‘expected’ in the society they live in. So, if walking away or ignoring someone is generally considered rude in Canada, then it’s less likely people will do that because they don’t want to be seen as rude. Meanwhile, as Leigh says, it’s perfectly acceptable to walk away and ignore someone in New York.

            So, there are different perspectives and different contexts to many things. The human brain is made to be malleable and to ‘rewire’ if necessary, but it’s not easy or quick to do so. It all makes for a huge psychological learning process! It’s fascinating, but it can also be a steep hill to climb too.

            Thanks for sharing your thoughts Melmel 🙂

      3. Melmel says:

        Leigh these are really interesting thoughts.

        “In the case of the narcissist, I don’t believe the true self has empathy either. The emotional empathy was never given a chance to develop.”

        Yes. That and: what if emotional empathy was starting to develop but then suppressed into non-existence during personality development in early childhood. Not like the toddler stage, but later on… I think HG has referenced the age of 9 or so… I think that early intervention during or immediately prior to completing puberty could potentially have “healed” or reversed the process. Once adults and personality has set in, it’s gone. No chance to develop it anymore in a neurobiological sense. And the likelihood of a successful intervention in a child’s life would be lowered if there is continued influence of the child on a daily basis… this idea is reflected in the Adverse Childhood Experiences study – the number, frequency and persistence of the different types of abuse or neglect makes the negative outcomes more likely; the mitigation of a significant outside influencer (teacher, counsellor, friend) can reduce the risk of these negative outcomes (by inserting some element of Controlled Environment) for the child of the narcissist…

        1. Leigh says:

          I find it fascinating. I’m very intrigued by it because both of my parents are narcissists and I had no outside intervention. How did I end up developing empathy? Beats the hell out of me!

  9. Asp Emp says:

    Re-reading the conversation (August 2020) – absolutely hilarious. That supposedly ‘heyoka’ causing an uproar among the empaths who rallied around to support HG, and also speak up for themselves against this ‘fake heyoka’. I was rather new to KTN site at the time yet I was not prepared to tolerate the BS that ‘fake heyoka’ was saying. It was funny to read this conversation again.

    Having said that, this article is one of my favourites. It explains really well how narcissism is created, with explanations / examples for a lay-person to understand.

    A must read for those starting on their journey to learning about narcissism.

  10. Ciara says:

    H.G. You explain your article brilliantly. I never understood how narcissist came to existence. I hate that happen to you. It’s terribly sad! A parent supposed to protect not neglect;They should tell and let the child know, “Everything is gonna be alright.” I totally disapprove of Narcs behavior and never ever want be in a relationship with one again. I wish you didn’t hurt people in the process of getting your prime aims.. However, I don’t want you to loose existence either. I see why it’s all about control now. Nobody can stand in your way anymore;Your narcissism won’t allow it. I’m understanding more and more daily about narcissism and I owe it all to you. Thank you very much.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  11. Melmel says:

    I feel like this is also how the Codependent is born… Especially when one parent is a codependent and intimate primary fuel source for the other parent, a narcissist. The lack of control: the inability of one parent to model appropriate boundary setting and the other respecting those boundaries. Tells the child: no matter what you do you will never be safe. Go ahead – set boundaries! It won’t matter anyway so why bother? Better to just keep being perfect so that the fury doesn’t ignite and descend. So that child tries to mimic the controlling behaviour of the Codependent to cope with the Narcissist and BOOM there’s your Codependent. Maybe the child sees that on some level the Codependent at least outwardly is able to exert a form of control over their environment, including the child. That gives the child a false sense of being able to create their own (false) control in a situation where as a child they are unknowingly being enmeshed in behaviours that will ultimately attract and retain more Narcissists into their lives. Things will quickly seem to go out of control again so those modelled Codependent behaviours surface and bind them even tighter.
    I hope I can break the cycle. My mother’s biggest error was believing that PatriNarc would leave me alone after she died… Why would he? After he obtained so much delicious fuel from her all these years, and now she’s gone. No matter. He has spawn that is identical to her in both form and substance. So he pursues. And the other Narcs in my life are circling at the same time… waiting for the best time to catch me unawares back into their toxic snares. What do I (Codependent) do? Rather than using logic to understand that the safest place is as far away as possible, I feel the overwhelming sense of DANGER that goes back to my formative years and I reach out to take hold of the danger in order to control it.
    Surrender. My only hope.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See “Chained” with regard to the creation of the codependent.

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