Down

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It is only ever a question of time before you go down. If you are one of the lucky ones, you may just reach the anniversary of a year since when I wrapped my tendrils around you and pulled you into my world. For others the marker of a year is but a distant dream as they find themselves cast down from their pedestal after a number of months. I know you all find it so troubling and upsetting that one day you are treated like a queen and the next you are regarded as a peasant but that is the nature of this beast.

It has always been the case for as long as I can remember and unless the next one lives up to expectations and delivers as they really ought to, then it will continue to be the case. I really would prefer that it was not the case. I know you think that I am some kind of monster for revelling in causing you such pain. I recognise that you are staggered that anybody could behave in what you regard as such an inhuman fashion by meting out physical, emotional, sexual and financial abuse but as is so often the case you are too caught up in your own feelings to actually understand why we do as we do.

I do not revel in the act of making you cry by calling you all manner of names and shouting at you. I do not take vast pleasure in saying who you can socialise with and marshalling your finances as if they are my own. The vast variety of manipulative machinations which I produce from my devil’s toolkit are not the source of my pleasure.

Yes, I will admit that I derive satisfaction from exerting such control and power over you, but it is not a huge amount of satisfaction. Why is that? It is for the simple reason that I am superior to you. I am entitled to take such steps and act in this way. It is a given. Accordingly, by behaving in this manner I am simply doing that which is expected of me and that is my right. Thus I am not able to derive huge amounts of pleasure from it. It is not the act which gives me the pleasure but it is your reaction to it.

Your heightened emotional reaction combined with the attention that you give me are the reasons why I must cast you down. I know that you hope that this can be avoided and you believe that there is another way. I know you tried to keep me happy by doing everything you could as best you could in the manner that you thought would meet with approval but you always failed in some way. I know my opinion chops and changes form day to day and from hour to hour.

But that is the way that I am and you availed yourself of my brilliance so now you must endure this part of my nature. I see no reason to change. Why should I alter from being who I am just because you cannot cope with it? Give way, yield and allow someone else the opportunity to fill your shoes and address matters. Have you considered that the reason you were cast into the dirt was because you just were not good enough? Oh I know you tried.

You told me often enough. By God I tired of hearing you whine and moan about how much you do for me and I have no time for such jealousy. That is what it is. You have been exposed to my brilliance and you wanted it for so long. You enjoyed being admitted to my world with all that such admission entailed but then you failed to show the requisite appreciation and respect. I knew what was behind it. You wanted what I had for yourself but that is impossible. I am used to people wanting to claim what is mine as their own.

It is a hazard of being a leader, a pioneer and a person that others look up to. I expect it of the minions that I must interact with, the knee benders, the elbow people and hand-wringers. I can see it in their eyes as they kiss my pinkie ring. They want to be me but they cannot. I am cut from a different and far superior cloth and the best that they can ever hope for is to be included in my court and experience my reflected glory. I expected such petty envy from them but not from you.

You were meant to be different but as so often been the case you proved that you were little better than them. Yes, you showed me some service in the provision of the fuel that I require but as ever it was short-lived and that is why I had to cast you down. You brought it on yourself. You signed your own death warrant and that was why you had to go down. Could I have chosen a different method and allowed you to walk away? No, not at all.

What you must understand is that you feasted at my table. You gorged on my love, you drank deep of my generosity and you clothed yourself in all the appreciation, desire, passion, attention and dedication that I provided to you. I gave all of this in order to receive from you but you still benefitted from it on a massive scale.

Having taken you must pay for it and if you failed to do so in the manner I have decreed then there is no hope for it other than for you to pay with your sanity and your self-esteem. That currency, along with your emotional outpourings became acceptable methods of repaying what I have provided to you. It is not permissible for you to leave with paying. In fact, on your way down, it is not permissible to leave. At all.

351 thoughts on “Down

  1. NarcAngel says:

    Leigh
    I don’t think it’s lack of a backbone. I believe it’s fear and addiction that keeps you there. Your ET keeps feeding the fear to keep the moments of logic from taking hold and keeps you immobilized.

    1. Leigh says:

      Its definitely fear that stops me. My fear keeps causing me to make excuses. I don’t feel like the addiction is about him though. I almost feel like the addiction is more about how it makes me feel when I help. I don’t know. I only have two parts of the addiction package. I really need to get the third part. Plus I want to get Fear and the Empathic Victim and The Final Battle. Those are next on my list. Maybe they will help me overcome my fear.

      1. WhoCares says:

        “Fear and the Empathic Victim” is awesome. The narc plays on so many of our fears and a lot those amount to psychological barriers in our mind. It’s one of my very favourite Logic Bulletins.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Leigh
        Obtaining and digesting those you listed will definitely help you to understand better the whys.

  2. NarcAngel says:

    AV
    Thoughts I had while reading about the drug issue (given very few details):

    If someone has admitted use and now knows they have been confirmed to be in possession (through the confiscation) and the issue has not been raised subsequently, how likely are they to be the one to raise it? I would think at the least most would rather avoid that discussion and at worst some might twist it (in their heads) as permission through parental denial or lack of concern. Especially if things go on as if nothing has changed. As hard as it might be, that seems to me a parent/leadership role to make the approach. I’m sure every parent leads with the concern about how far it can go, which may be taken as lecture and with denial and cause the child to start tuning out, but what if you approached it using the examples from your own life, it’s effects, and your concern that not be recreated in his life? (the chaos created by your parents and you having no outlet, the chaos he and your family experienced through his fathers addiction (keeping factual to the addiction and not slamming his father of course), and I believe you commented somewhere about your experience with drinking although not extensively). Might the lead in or basis to open the discussion be that there’s tension due to the elephant in the room and followed by those concerns?

    If the concern is more if he’s a narcissist, I’m not sure what you meant by not doing a narc detector because there’s nothing to put down? You know him well enough to answer what you see, although as a concerned mother with love for their child I imagine it would be hard to answer unbiased, but that is what must be done if you want the truth. If you anticipate difficulty in filling out the detector perhaps a consultation would be better in allowing for discussion.

    However you choose to handle it, best to you and your son.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi NA, I just found your comment by chance, it didn’t come up in my notifications.

      I have wondered about the unintentional condoning through silence. That means I have to say something. And it is confusing to me now because he is 18, a supposed adult, a legal adult, which I hear anytime I cross a boundary, not often but often enough. But I believe you are correct, it is my job as a person who cares about him and also still has some responsibility for him. Thank you for sharing this perspective, it is one I’ve had in the back of my mind but not wanted to look at. I do tend to run from conflict, or at least ugly things I don’t want to face. Your tips for the conversation are appreciated too.

      I will look at the NDC’s that I’ve done with him in mind and see if there is anything that comes to mind to put down about him. The piece about being unbiased has also crossed my mind, do I want to know? Yes, I do. No, I don’t. Difference between want and need here. I just keep seeing him as that sweet little boy from a few years ago.

      Thank you NA, it means a lot that you shared your thoughts here, I needed to hear them.

      1. JB says:

        AV, I have just seen the comments about your son. I’m sorry, that must be a really difficult situation. I agree that keeping quiet about it may be interpreted as condoning it, and also with NA that it may be difficult to complete an unbiased NDC in this situation. Whatever you decide to do, I am thinking of you and hope it all works out for the best. It’s hard being a mum, isn’t it, nothing prepares you for this type of situation, and I always think it’s much harder dealing with situations such as these when you love the person who is involved xx

        1. A Victor says:

          Thank you JB, it is difficult but that’s because we love them so much, it hurts to think they’re hurting or hurting themselves. I agree as well that keeping quiet is not the route to go, I have yet to reach a counselor but have someone holding me accountable to do so. So, even though I hate doing it, hating the idea even though it is for his good and therefore I know I must, I will be. Thank you for the thoughts and understanding. I have been so thankful for the support, ideas and encouragement from all of you.

          1. JB says:

            You’re welcome, AV xx

  3. NarcAngel says:

    Interesting. I have been here on the blog since very early on and find there is still understanding and reassurance aplenty. I believe changes in feeling can depend greatly on individual focus, perception, and where they are now as opposed to where they started. Different paths and results is all.

    1. Melmel says:

      NA –
      I have really appreciated your comments (and the others’) in this blog. I learn so much from all of you, and of course HG’s content for which I will forever be grateful.

      You are right – it’s a journey and we might all take a slightly different path to get there. Also, I think we need to be kind to ourselves and each other when we have a set back. It doesn’t mean that the learning has not occurred or that progress has not been made. We are all farther ahead than where we were when we arrived, and we all have some demons remaining to Exorcize. Maybe we will have to exorcize the same demon over and over again until we banish it for good.

    2. WiserNow says:

      NarcAngel,

      Even though I have said I would ignore your messages, I’ll respond to this one because I would like to convey to you how this particular message makes me ‘feel’. It’s a case of ‘feeling’ or emotional response, despite knowing and understanding the ‘logic’ that we have both learned here from HG.

      Your ‘interpretation’ about “individual focus, perception, and where they are now as opposed to where they started. Different paths and results is all.” – this makes me ‘feel’ like you’re studying me like I’m some kind of lab animal you are observing. I’m being honest, so if that sounds harsh, I’m sorry.

      You and I have had a number of ‘interactions’ (discussions, debates, conversations, replies, responses etc) quite a few times here over several years. We haven’t always agreed and we haven’t always been ‘buddies’ etc. However, we both have intelligent ways of looking at things and we understand what HG is telling us. We don’t have to like each other, however, we can still appreciate and respect each other.

      You may not see it or feel it, however, I find that there’s no warmth or emotional ‘connection’ or memory of our previous comments and conversations in your ‘interpretation’ even though you and I have communicated a number of times.

      Your perception about there being ‘understanding and reassurance aplenty’ didn’t take into account your long comment to me saying that ‘we all have choices’ etc. That long comment did not feel friendly or reassuring or understanding of my initial comment. It didn’t feel like we have known each other for a while as two individual adults. It felt like a lecture.

      In another comment here, you say that we can always say ‘no’ and there’s ‘no obligation’. From a ‘logical’ point of view, that’s true. There’s no obligation to do anything. To me though, ‘pure logic’ is equivalent to a lack of warmth or ’emotional connection’ or compromise even after repeated conversations and exchanges. The warmth and compromise is what makes a successful ‘relationship’, rather than just intermittent ‘transactional’ interactions.

      I hope my comment doesn’t cause offence – sincerely, that is not my intention. I just wanted to reply to your comment. You are free to say and think what you like. I’m simply responding to provide you with my own honest (and well-intentioned) ‘interpretation’.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        WN

        Are we just to consider your feelings? What of those who were told to fuck off (acknowledging subsequent apology that “felt” more like an attempt at damage control than genuine)?, those who were mocked with their own phrases? those who were upbraided for having the audacity to have an opinion other than yours resonate with them enough to comment? Those for whom it was insinuated were fawning sycophants for agreeing where you do not, or for showing gratitude where you think none should be offered or in a way that doesn’t offend you? What of accusing me of ramming my opinions down people’s necks while you continued to ram your opinion of me down those very same necks?

        Again, you adopt the stance that everything is about you when it is not. While we are all observing each other in some way here, I can assure you I am not studying you. Honestly, I don’t find you all that interesting. That you interpret general comment/discussion as a personal lecture speaks to something you have to work out. Or not. Again – choice.

        My interpretation of the blog is that it is a place to learn and to exchange experiences and ideas – not to make “buddies”, so yes, we don’t have to like each other, but I fail to see the “respect” you speak of in the behaviours you demonstrated (as outlined in paragraph one) while espousing we embrace it. I have commented many times that there is room for all opinions.

        I am not saying No has to be issued in a harsh way or without warmth. That is your assumption. You can smile warmly and thank the person profusely for the invitation (for example) and say that you will not be attending. There is however, often still the expectation of an explanation. This causes people to lie about the reason for declining, which is often easily seen through or discovered later and which causes a much greater offence (at least to me) than just having said a warm thank you but no. “No” should be assumed as an issue for the person declining (logic) and not a personal rejection of the person extending the invitation (emotional thinking), but it is often is taken emotionally. That was my point.

        I am not offended, more surprised that after all this time and many interactions that you fail to see that you are guilty of the same things you accuse me of. I am an ACON and was a victim of narcissistic abuse just as you were/are. We have had different experiences and reactions, and while I do not expect you to embrace my opinions or comments, I would think that at the very least you could acknowledge I am as entitled to give them as you feel you are, and that in the case that they resonate with others, that you refrain from taking them personally and issue fuck offs or launch an assault against others due to any disdain for me or my position. Doing that invalidates other victims and is surely not something you intend.

        1. WiserNow says:

          NarcAngel,

          From your reply, I can see that it’s not helpful to try and ‘converse’ with you. I am aware that you are also an ACON and I’m also aware that you have said plenty of lewd and crude things about others too, without the offended sensitivity you claim to show now. Rather than consider the whole thread and the context in which things were said, you seem intent on continuing with a defensive word salad.

          In future, if you are making a “general comment/discussion” that you believe shouldn’t be taken “personally”, then don’t add an individual’s name at the start of your “general comment/discussion”. By addressing your ‘general’ comment to one person only, your comment is going to be taken ‘personally’.

          I have nothing further to add. Have a great day NarcAngel.

    3. Cherish says:

      I have not read all the comments it’s so many . But I can understand and relate with NA it’s just being rational more often instead emotional. There is no wrong or right.

  4. NarcAngel says:

    TS
    I agree that the empath’s school/cadre can have a considerable degree of influence on reaction. Also, as I pointed out with ‘blame’, definitions come into play. Not everyone has the same opinion of what constitutes ‘conflict’ or ‘debate’. For some, a differing opinion will be received as merely engaging in conversation or healthy debate, while for others it will be received as threat, judgement, or conflict. I see often what I believe to be emotional thinking overriding logic (what was received vs what was actually said).

    Take for instance the word no. No matter how it is offered (even if followed by thank you) it can be received by some as rude and they expect it to be followed by an explanation when it is in fact merely a response with no such obligation. Yet some people will do anything to avoid it, often offering a lie or excuse instead in the name of not offending. That is ironic to me, and an example of emotional thinking over logic. It is just a response – not an outright rejection of the receiver or everything they stand for, but often it is taken as such.

    I believe school/cadre and ingrained thinking/behaviour formed from past experiences will indeed have bearing on how things are received.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      NA,

      The more threads I read, the more empaths I read honestly expressing themselves and their experiences, the more things fall into place for me. For me, the empath is largely ‘born’. Schools and cadres are formed predominantly as a product of our childhood environment and key influences / experiences within it. Parents, parents of friends, teachers, extended family, whether we were bullied in school, popular in school, any number of influences. The parental influences being most significant in most cases. So in my mind, schools and cadres are ‘made’.

      The other thing that has to feed into it for ACON’s is the school and cadre of the influencing narcissist. All ACONS are not the same. They have experienced similar manipulations from various schools of narcissist. All in the name of fuel and control. There will be distinct differences in the various narcissist influencers though too. Throw this into a melting pot and you come out with empaths having empathic and narcissistic traits set to various levels, lighting up in response to a multitude of situations and stressors.

      The adult empaths then go out into the world and are subjected to more influences, some narcissistic, some normal or empathic. Core traits then embed through additional learned experience. They shift, change a little in strength perhaps, or, different cadres and schools within our unique make up take the lead in differing situations, but the anchoring traits are set in stone.

      It fascinates me. We share the empathic perspective. Within this perspective though there are differences of interpretation, (conflict/ debate) interpretation of blame etc, interpretation of each other.

      ‘No’ is an interesting one. I am similar to you on this point. No is no. I have no problem saying ‘no’. When I’m done I’m done and so on. Almost black and white thinking if I’m honest. I see my version as self protection but pride does come into it too. You are an ACON, I am not. Somewhere along the line though, we had a similar experience which results in this response being shared by us both.

      I know that trained hostage negotiators are trained to avoid the use of no. Or, use it selectively and only at the appropriate time. ‘No’ threatens control, induces stress in the hostage taker, provokes a response (often a knee jerk response which can be capitalised on). Put a child with a narcissist and I imagine dependent on school of narcissist, ‘ no’ brought about catastrophic results. So I can see why someone would avoid saying ‘no’ and at all costs. I don’t have that experience personally and so ‘no’ is less problematic for me personally.

      Perception is everything and it impacts everything. I can remember being an ex pat in France. We congregated around an Irish pub called The Cricketers. Various Brits various jobs, various backgrounds. The women called me, ‘The Woman Hater’. It was based on the fact that I hung out with the guys. I hung out with the guys because I didn’t gel with the women in that particular group. I can’t apologise for that. I wasn’t going to spend my free time with women I didn’t get along with. I was polite. I accept I was not warm. I didn’t feel warmth, so I didn’t manufacture it. I chose to hang out with the guys and enjoy myself instead! The perception of the women therefore was that I was ‘a woman hater.’ It isn’t the first time something similar has been created about me. I don’t see why I should change to fit others’ expectations. I could charm and play the game. If it was a work environment I might, (one of the reasons I see myself as manipulative in work) but not socially. Am I therefore antisocial? Further situational evidence would suggest not. People gravitate towards me and share their life stories too. I’d do anything I could to help someone in need. If you asked the women at the Cricketers though, I was probably akin to Cruella Deville without the grey streak.

      We are very much our schools and cadres in my view. There is wiggle room within that as we are not all one school or one cadre, but I think there is a very strong tendency to interpret, react, communicate in school/ cadre specific ways. I don’t think I will ever tire of learning about it or trying to better understand it.

      ( I see my ability to be concise is also improving then!)

      1. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

        There have been a few posts now of yours which have resonated with me. I too do not do things just because it is expected – or considered the social norm. Your inner reflection of the situation – your part and that of others, infers that you are not unaware or unaffected by this judgement.

        This I can relate to. I have no love of small talk, general gossip and surface conversations. I much prefer to be on my own – or at home with a good book.

        I agree with = We are very much our schools and cadres in my view. There is wiggle room within that as we are not all one school or one cadre, but I think there is a very strong tendency to interpret, react, communicate in school/ cadre specific ways.

        All the best 🙂

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hello psychology,

          Thank you for your kind comment. Yes, you are exactly right, I was affected by the judgement. I thought it unfair. I suppose you could say it was proof that I was correct in steering clear of them, it didn’t feel like that though, it just felt unfair.

          I can’t do small talk either. I want a meaningful interaction. I want to get to know the person and not the car they drive, what house they live in, or what they or their partner does for a living. This was one of the problems I faced when I lived in South Carolina. The particular neighbourhood I was in was very materialistic and very much about networking. It was all show. Scratch the surface and there was just more surface. The area was beautiful, but the lack of meaningful interaction drained the life from me. I withdrew into myself, I couldn’t face the small talk so I withdrew. Without true friends and extended family I was emotionally isolated. I escaped online, chatted to my friends online but it wasn’t the same as having them there. It was at this point the narc found me. Perfect timing. For him, not me!

          Lovely to meet you Psychology.

  5. Empath007 says:

    I’m going to add my two cents to this conversation.

    The focus should always be on trying to educate victims without judgment. With the education the victim has a choice – not an obligation- to use that information should they feel it would help them, or better their circumstance.

    If someone is annoyed at their empathetic friend for remaining in an abusive situation. Then they have the right to refrain from giving that friend the time of energy of repeatedly trying to help or explain it to them. Just because you have given someone advice does not mean they have to take it.

    Reaponsiblity is an Individual process. What one might consider the responsible thing to do – another May not. Empaths are not irresponsible for staying in abusive relationships – they are people who likely lack proper support systems, access to the proper education, willingness/drive to fight their addiction (if they even understand they have an addiction) similar to a drug addict you can not force these people into detox… the person has to WANT to make these changes… if they don’t they may be perceived as “irresponsible” but that is not a fair judgment in my opinion – because they have to come to conclusions on their own.

    Before I understood what an empath even was, I was acting instinctively and believed in my actions. People who loved me gave me well intended advice but it was me who had to decide what it is I really wanted. One of the hardest things to adjust to was the notion of remaining silent. Before I understood these dynamics I thought me speaking up for myself was a source of strength and power. I never in a million years have guessed there is personliarly types out there who enjoy conflict. How could I have possibly known that ? Given it was not my world view ? Nothing about my actions to fight back was irresponsible- it was a choice I made based on my own worldview and resources I had at the time. And now – silence is one of my favourite tools to use.

    However, just because I decided to make changes in my life I find helpful… does not mean I should expect anyone else to follow suite. I do not judge empaths stuck in the cycle (and I know many) – I do try to take moments of opportunity to point
    Things out to them in a way they haven’t thought about it before – but what I’ve learnt here is – ultimately I am not responsible for educating them, saving them or making decisions for them. And I’m certainly not in the position to decide what defines personal responsibility for them.

    I can only do that for myself.

    1. Jasmin says:

      Hi empath007!
      I enjoyed reading your comment and I totally agree with you! It’s not strange at all that it result difficult for us to remain silent.

      I think that if we are not acting instinctively, then we are acting consciously and that might require an effort as you might need keep your instinctive response under check. You know consciously that talking to/arguing with the narcissist is getting you nowhere and provides him with fuel.

      You also need to be conscious in the present moment. Even if you are aware of somethings it doesn’t mean you walking around consciously thinking about it all the time. Then you will act instinctively until that something pops into your mind.

      For me; I’m getting “over emotional” at times. Feeling so enthusiastic/excited, talking to high and to fast, and as I’m so rapt up in my emotions I do not take note of the reations of those in my company. I’ve been awere of this since I was 17 (I’m 35 now), still it keep happens over and over again. It isn’t until I consciously take heed, -‘Oh, shit! Here I go again!, often in the middle of event, that I can control my conduct.
      Being consions in the present moment seems to be almost impossible..

      Finally I wish to say that I think speaking up for yourself is a source strength and power, for you and for majority of perspective. Just not to be used with those we shouldn’t be around.

      1. Empath007 says:

        Hello Jasmin 🙂

        Yes. It absolutely takes a very concious effort on my part. And it has to be controlled. Learning to control my reactive nature has been quite a learning process. It is not only empaths who are reactive … I’ve seen narcs that are too (sometimes I think the narcs inability to be self reflective and control their own “impulses” aka need to control in the moment and not see the big picture – is actually a weakness a weaponized empath could exploit – but that’s another topic lol)

        But yes. I’ve had to conciously control it, but when I do I have been very happy with the results. I had NO clue that silence held just as much… if not more power then “defending” myself.

        Ive found it easier to implment in my proffesional life then my personal life. But real change takes time and effort.
        If it were easy…. everyone would do it.

        1. Jasmin says:

          Yes, I’ve also been very happy with the result when I’ve remained silent! I’m responding silenty to myself instead.
          As you say it’s not about punishing or controlling but about defending yourself.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Empath 007,

      I really like this comment. I agree, responsibility is an individual process and sometimes stepping back is the best thing we can do to help. Your view feels healthy to me, balanced. I struggle with the stepping back thing if I’m honest. That’s likely why I can wear myself out in certain situations.

      It’s been a while since we’ve spoken, we might be commenting on different threads or you are on the blog less often now? I hope you and yours are well. Xx

      1. Empath007 says:

        Hi TS.

        Yes long time no see ! I’m on the blog less now, the pandemic is slowing down and work is picking up… life is starting to resume its “normal” pace. Due to that I feel in a much healthier mind set too and don’t find im thinking of the narc as often or in the same way.

        It took me a while to adopt the approach I speak about. I like to offer advice but I find doing so is usually not productive and can sometimes even be thrown back in my face. People feel judged when offered unsolicited advice… I make a conscious effort not to do so. And I believe in what I said… I don’t view empaths as irresponsible. They (we) already beat ourselves up enough, we don’t need others doing that for us.

        Hope you’ve been well too TS.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Empath 007

          I’m really glad life is resuming a more normal pace for you. Having more things to occupy our minds, deadlines to meet again does help us to move forward too I think. Asp Emp and I discussed the advantages of us arriving here as lockdown started. Intensive education, mental space to consider things etc, there does come a point where it’s time to get back out there again though and I think many of us are ready to do just that!

          Having the gorgeous summer weather to enjoy also makes a difference. I feel like I’ve lived through the longest winter on record.

          Hope to keep seeing you pop in Empath007. Xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, yes! I am certainly raring to go – like a horse or greyhound at the gate of a racecourse! I need some physical excitement! (laughing).

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Just don’t chase the wabbit, and if someone offers you an apple, don’t take it! Xx

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Empath007
      Exactly – you throw options in the mix and people are free to consider different options. Or not. I don’t expect my siblings for example to follow my path, but at the same time, I don’t expect to hear repeatedly how I’m “lucky” and that “I don’t understand” when we experienced the abuse together. That is an excuse that invalidates me and keeps them trapped. I think it’s often the reason we perceive normals as being indifferent or mean, or that people close to us are uncaring. It might be that they recognize there is little they can offer (as you point out -you can only do for yourself) but they tire of hearing about it or witnessing it until that time comes. Especially if there are children involved. Sometimes I think ongoing validation can just keep people stuck in the abuse. Someone on here once told me she had the right to deal with things in her own way. Absolutely she does, but I wonder if her children would agree and who speaks for them? It can be damaging to people (especially children) to look on at abuse and be able to do nothing about it. People need only ask themselves if they could quietly watch on patiently while repeatedly validating and resist offering anything if it were their adult child accepting the abuse instead of themselves. I’ll bet not many.

      1. Empath007 says:

        I was fortunately never in the position of being abused as a child… my mother, however, was and is a codependent as a result – which was then passed down to me.

        If I had a friend with children involved I would (now) still adopt the same approach. I no longer believe it is my duty to safe everyone ( I used to … and I’m letting go of that). I have my own children to care for and thier needs and well being come first ( they never met the narc I dated – I made it clear to him he’d have to prove himself before he did – and he never did ).

        My friend would know I am there to support her, but I can’t do all the hard work for her( or him) they have to want to do that themselves. If the change doesn’t come from within… there will be no change. Whether a person is a narc, normal or empath… they need to want to change. If the desire isn’t there… I don’t think it will happen.

        I wouldn’t give people validation per say… I mostly just turn on my empathetic listening ears and let them talk. And (for my own well being) offer less advice then I used too.

  6. Asp Emp says:

    HG, reading that pissed me off….. “by the way, I’m just having a bit of fun” – if that is the way they are treating your site and other bloggers, it seems to me that they will never be Non-The-Wiser and not being respectful to you or others. And no, my ET is not raised, just the prickles and my claws coming out…….. this little kitty is in a slashing moment…..

    1. WiserNow says:

      …careful there Asp Emp, please remember that if you don’t ‘understand’ someone else’s ‘perspective’, then you are partly to blame for your own involvement in the ‘ensnarement’.

      I think you need to spend some time on the naughty step, don’t you?

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Are you being serious WiserNow? I have seen everything you have said to other people. I understand more about ‘perspectives’ than you realise. Don’t bother laying the guilt at MY door, Madam. YOU sit on the naughty step 🙂

        1. WiserNow says:

          Asp Emp,

          It doesn’t feel good to be lectured or patronised, does it? You felt justified in telling me to _ _ _ _ _ _ _ though….

          What makes it okay for you to say rude things, yet you expect an apology from me when I’m being honest?

          When someone directs the same kind of sentiments to you, you can’t hold back your righteous anger. You can’t reflect on all the ‘perspectives’ you have and allow your ’empathy’ to override your resentment.

          Why do you expect others to then?

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Dearest None-The-Wiser-Now, I am not going into this with you. I am being honest too. So are many other people on this blog. You seem to think it’s ok for you to speak to people like NarcAngel as if she is a piece of shit, when it was unwarranted. I don’t fall out with people on this blog. I’ll certainly say something if I feel it is necessary. So, pack it in or pull your blinkers off and think about how you speak to people who know what they are talking about. Have a nice day, madam. 🙂

          2. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            Name-calling… “pack it in”.. “madam”… Really? How old are you? 12? Who do you think you are?

            The naughty step isn’t working…

            I think you need to spend time in HG’s dungeon. While you’re there, brush up on your cognitive empathy because it’s wearing thin. Also, practice kissing-up to HG while you’re there to ensure you “don’t fall out with people on this blog” (eye-roll while shaking my head).

          3. Asp Emp says:

            WN, it doesn’t matter how old I am, me, 12 years old? Oh, thank you for such a lovely compliment. I am such a smart-ass 12 year old!

            “brush up on your cognitive empathy because it’s wearing thin” = absolute evidence that HG’s methods of reducing ET actually works = HG has weaponised me, in the right ways. “practice kissing-up to HG” = I’ll do what I like, where HG is concerned.

            Eye-roll away, all you like. It doesn’t bother me. It’s probably why you have missed other comments I have made on this blog.

            Adios! From a 12 year old…… duh!

  7. BC30 says:

    Dude…”you do not change who you are ” is the correct answer.

  8. WiserNow says:

    Thank you to HG and everyone else for all the comments on this thread. I appreciate each and every one of them. I have also learned a lot about what I think, how I think and how others perceive it.

    NarcAngel is correct. We all have choices.

    So the next time NarcAngel decides to ram her opinion down someone’s throat, insisting that abusers need to be ‘understood’ and if a victim doesn’t do that (in each and every comment they ever make), then the ‘blame’ should be apportioned to the victim as well – I know what to do.

    The next time NarcAngel decides to fly in and give a lecture, without any *real* empathy or *real* insight into why someone said what they did (in one comment that was specific to one conversation) – I know what to do.

    I will exercise my ‘choice’ to do what HG suggests – have no contact. I will ignore NarcAngel and her lack of real empathy and real insight (ABOUT THE SPECIFIC CONVERSATION AND WHY THE ONE COMMENT WAS SAID).

    I will exercise my ‘choice’ to remember the real fact that people have very short memories and are prone to pounce on one comment in one thread without taking into consideration many others comments that have been made.

    That way, I will avoid this unnecessary circular ‘discussion’ and we can all go on our merry way 🙂

    1. Asp Emp says:

      WN, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ………..

      1. WiserNow says:

        😂 …that gave me a giggle Asp Emp (laughing) . . .

  9. NarcAngel says:

    WN
    The comment regarding talking about it and not leaving was not directed at you so you can let the air out of that inflated tire. Opinions and comments made here (by everyone) can apply to people in general and not just you. The only part of my initial comment addressed to you was about the definition of blame. That suggesting there are things the empath can do to change things not always be taken as ‘blame’ (not only here but by people in our personal lives) but be seen as empowerment as well. The narcissists are to blame. No one is contesting that. No one is saying you haven’t learned here. You are choosing to take things offered to an audience in general as personal criticism when they are not.

    Facts:
    You made a comment. More than one in fact.
    I responded to one and offered what I thought to be additional input about the definition of blame. Additional – NOT negating yours.
    My comment was met with a fuck off (with subsequent apology).

    People were not flying in from nowhere to tell you you were wrong. You interpreted additional input as that. They were only offering their view just as you did.

    No one is being smeared. You have made many comments that are incorrect with regard to my input and intent. I could consider that as you smearing me (that I am defending narcissists and blaming victims for example) but I don’t. I consider it extreme emotional thinking likely caused by repeated criticisms of you by narcissists in your life. Their fault.

    There is room for everyone’s opinions and comments.

  10. Leigh says:

    If I may, I think WN and NA are both right. I don’t think agreeing with one invalidates the other. WN, I know what you mean. I’m tired of adapting to meet the needs of the narcissist. It infuriates me. I’m an ACON and both my parents are narcissists. I’ve been conditioned from birth to accept their characteristics and behaviors. That infuriates me too. And because of our empathic makeup, we are also going to be targeted by the narcissist. Yet another thing that infuriates me.

    You’re right that we’ve already endured so much abuse at the hands of the narcissist. I can only speak for myself here but this is where I agree with NA. I’ve decided to stay with my husband, a narcissist. Once I made that decision to stay, it was no longer his fault. I made the decision and I have to live with that decision. I can’t put blame on him. I have to be responsible for my actions.

    As much as it infuriates me that I have to be the one to adapt, yet again, its the only way to achieve true freedom.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Leigh,

      If your decision to stay with your husband is the decision you have reached, then we’ll 100% support you. If at some point in the future that decision should change, we’ll 100% support you then too. Xx

      1. Leigh says:

        TS, there’s a plan. It’s just for now. I cant leave my children wirh him. My father left us with my horrible mother and I never forgave him. My father was a narc too. Once they are out on there own, I’m out too.

        I want a space of my own where there is no one but me.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Leigh,

          I can see your thinking. Not an easy decision when you have kids, particularly when they are older and only a few years off flying the nest. A lot to consider, depends on the school of narc, the devaluation, the empath etc.

          I know the rule is Once You Know You Go and I think that is correct. You are on the ground though, living it and all circumstances are not the same. Would an empath ask for a divorce when their kids were taking GCSE exams or High School Diploma finals? I suspect not. She would wait, so as not to disrupt. I imagine yours is a similar plan based on similar criteria.

          I’m glad you have a plan. The plan will lead you to freedom, yours is just not the most direct route. You will get that space to call your own though, I have great faith that you will. Xx

        2. Eternity says:

          Leigh,
          You will not be leaving your children, you will be leaving him there is a difference.
          Having a space of your own will be the best feeling in the world. Don’t let fear get in the way . You can do this.

          1. Leigh says:

            Its not that I’m leaving them. It’s that I would be leaving them with him. I can’t do that to them. I had no protection from my narcissistic parents. I will not do that to my children. I will take the bullet over and over again. This is one thing I won’t budge on. I know what it feels like when no one has your back. I cant do it to them.

        3. Eternity says:

          I am replying.to this comment. I don’t know the situation with your children and your husband, and their age, but things will work out. I know from experience. Trust me. Plus there is a light at the end of the tunnel. How much can you take? You want to be their for your children don’t you? How can focus when you are with this man feeling miserable each and every single day?. No it is not right. Start thinking about your sanity and your life. You are very intelligent ! Consult with HG too he will can guide you in the right direction. Hugs love 💘

          1. Leigh says:

            Eternity, he doesn’t determine how I feel. I’m not miserable. I love my life. I love my children, my career and my friends. My husband is a victim narcissist so the abuse is no where near as severe. Is just a mere thorn in my side.

            But yes, you are right. I deserve better.

          2. Leigh says:

            Hi Eternity, I just wanted to send a further response. I’m an ACON, both parents are narcissists. My husband is also a narcissist and I’ve been with him for over 35 years. My whole entire life I’ve been under the influence of narcs. Yes, I want to leave my husband. I don’t want to leave my children with him. I want them to start their lives outside of this home so when I leave, I’m gone for good. If I leave them here, my guilt will bring me back. They shouldn’t carry the burden of me leaving.

            To answer your question, how much can I take, I don’t know. I’ve been ensnared my whole entire life and I’m still standing.

      2. Leigh says:

        Hi TS, on another post you asked me why I want to help workplace narc. I had a little insight this morning. Its not for altruistic reasons. Often times, it’s to get back at my husband for devaluing me. I guess I get some thought fuel of my own knowing that interacting with workplace narc would wound my husband.

        On Friday, my husband and I were driving home. He said to me, you’re running low on gas. He was driving my car. I never left the house yesterday. However, he went out 5 times and used my car. Ask me if he got gas for me. That would be a big, fat NO. When I got in the car this morning and saw it was empty, instantly I thought to myself, “This is what makes me want to reach out to workplace narc.” Its my way of getting back at him.

        I won’t reach out to workplace narc, I just wanted to share.

        1. A Victor says:

          Leigh, my (passive aggressive) reaction to that would be to leave it empty on Friday evenings.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Or, leave an opened pepperoni sausage under the seat.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I like that idea!!!

          3. Leigh says:

            Ha! I might have to try that!

        2. A Victor says:

          Oops, I misunderstood your predicament. Still, he wouldn’t be getting any gas from me, haha!

          I wonder if it is a narcissistic trait that is offended that makes you want a form of revenge, almost. Pride maybe?

          1. Leigh says:

            I don’t know, maybe pride. I knew he wouldnt put gas in the car, so i wasnt too annoyed. Thats how well I know my husband. I just keep thinking, the last laugh is on me!

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Leigh,

          Laughing at that because I knew what was coming. Drives me nuts. If the light comes on and you’re driving it, just fill the damn thing up! How difficult can it be?!

          That said, my friend Gemma plays a game with herself about only filling up when there’s like two miles left in the tank. Never understood that, but she does it all the time! Haha.

          1. JB says:

            TS, 2 miles!! I panic if I only have quarter of a tank left! 😂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            I’m exactly the same. Quarter full and I’m looking to fill up. That was kind of drilled into me by my dad. I was driving to Birmingham quite regularly when I was younger. I hadn’t been driving that long. Birmingham is a pig to drive through and if you get lost it can take ages to get back on the right road. My dad would say, ‘If you’ve got money, you’ve got a full tank and you’ve got your phone, the worst you’ll be, is late.” I’ve never deviated from it and I’m never late!

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Crikey I frequently drive around with less than 0. Less so in the summer but in the winter, autumn and spring I need to wait until my husband is in my car with me. I get too cold to stop and fill it up. Hahah omg massive sense of entitlement.

          4. Leigh says:

            TS, you should know that I also live walking distance from a gas station so Its not like he had to go out of his way. I wouldn’t react though. I said nothing.

            You made a comment on another thread that in reality, we are the ones in control. That we control if we fuel them or not. I refused to give him negative fuel. By the way, for me, that’s how I feel power. I control whether I want to fuel him or not.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Alexis,

            That tickled me. Winter is when you need to make sure you are fuelled up!!! 😂

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            I see what you mean about choosing not to provide negative fuel. Once you actually know that you are living with a narcissist and mentally you have disconnected, it must then be easier to not react when previously you would have. Hopefully this leads to you feeling less frustrated on the occasions when you do interact, and in itself leads to fewer interactions!

            I imagine you very much in a holding position just now, just waiting for a clear runway to land. Separate lives, same house, whilst planning for your own future when the time is right. I know least about the Victim Narcissist cadre. I imagine they drain more than overpower so I can see how you are likely managing the situation. Your own job and friends must be key in that. Somewhere to focus, a release.

            In many ways I think the bigger risk is a new narcissist swaggering onto the scene rather than the risk posed by your husband. In your mind, you have already left and that’s a big emotional battle already dealt with. The key issue must be elevated ET from your living situation, you are in all the arenas of interaction. So, if a tall handsome stranger shows up carrying flowers, perfume and chocolates, run! Run away!! Ha ha xx

          7. Leigh says:

            Yes, my husband does drain much more than he overpowers. Its bizarre because I really do have a lot of the power in the relationship. I’m the one who takes care of everything. He wouldn’t even know how to pay a bill. My dynamic is save, carry, explode and then repeat.

            Yes, my job is key. It gets me out of the house away from him. Plus I love what I do. I work in HR and get to help people who need it. I don’t have any support other than this blog. My best friend is a narcissist too and is extremely toxic. More so than my mother and my husband. This blog is my only safe space to share.

            Yes, mentally I’ve left the relationship with my husband already. I left years ago. That’s why workplace narc happened. Don’t worry, I won’t let another narc in again. The wall is up and the rose colored glasses are off.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            Haha, good. Clear is the new rose! Xx

          9. Melmel says:

            Leigh –

            Regarding your reply to my thoughts that I posted in a confusing spot (I tend to find the first reply button closest to the thread I am commenting on but if the thread is really long, I often misplace my comments – I will try to be more mindful of that):

            I’m so glad my comment helped. It is a constant struggle for me, and I find that because my ET is so high (because I am still interacting with the Narcs in one or more Arenas of Interaction), I have to take extra time to reflect, ground myself, and often listen to HG’s lectures that are filled with Logic to get me thinking that way. Often I have to completely distance myself and my thoughts from the problem and think about or do something else for a while just to give my mind enough space from thinking about the narcissist (one of the arenas of interaction) so that my ET lowers enough for me to see Logic. When something becomes clear (like a Logic Download once ET lowers below a certain threshold), I cling to that idea or knowledge and I remind myself of what I have learned throughout the day so that I can internalize it. Then when I need it in other areas of my life (i.e. with my husband who is infuriating but is trying very hard to deal with my increased confidence and autonomy of thought), it pops up and makes itself available to me again, and I MIGHT be able to choose a different response/behaviour in the moment that is less destructive in the new situation.

            On the flip side, I am trying to listen more to my intuition because I often end up talking myself out of the reality of a situation when I inadvertently am using my ET to justify the narcissists’ actions or trying to empathize with their motivations (crazy making thinking in circles). I’m learning I will never understand their motivations because my inner make up is so different; when I find myself trying to do this (ET), I force myself to stop, accept that they are a different creature than I, and (try really hard) to let go of that need to Understand, to Heal and Fix. I shift the focus inward to look at 1. How I am really feeling, 2. Allow myself to experience and express the feeling in its raw form, 3. Self-soothe as I would comfort one of my own children when they are experiencing those feelings. I find that when I am able to do this without shifting the focus back on the narcissist and their behaviours, the feeling passes and I can think more clearly about the situation. Essentially I try to lower my empathy toward the narcissist and increase empathy for myself.

            The Addiction never goes away, and neither does the ET. That’s OK. I accept that and I no longer feel blame or shame about it (as an ACON I have struggled with this sense of shame – that there is something Wrong with me – my whole life). I don’t feel that seeking to understand myself and my response to the narcissist invalidates my experience or justifies their abuse; it just helps me deal with the day-to-day ebb and flow of my ET if I am still unable to truly go No Contact. If I understand it, I can choose how to respond to hopefully lower the damage they inevitably cause to me; even if it takes a little longer than Normals who don’t have the Addiction and can shift out of ET easier and quicker than Empaths.

          10. Leigh says:

            Melmel, I’m just seeing your comment now. For some reason, the notifications aren’t working on WordPress. I apologize.

            I know what you mean about taking the extra step to ground myself. I do the same. Until I can go NC, I have to find ways to lower my ET as well. If I’m at work, I close my office door. I also walk alot now too.

            I think it might be too soon in your journey and that’s why you don’t understand what drives the narcissist. You might not understand everything but you will get to a point where it starts to click. Understanding what motivates them is key. Its what helps you to move on.
            Once you realize that they are empty and need our emotional reactions to validate their existence, you’ll no longer want to give them an emotional reaction. At least, that’s how it is for me.

          11. JB says:

            TS, I have no idea why I am like that, don’t think anyone ever officially told me when the best time to fill up would be. Just how I am, risk averse! 😂 I’ve never been to B’ham but the idea of getting stuck on busy roads with no fuel panics me! Don’t even know why, it wouldn’t be the end of the world I were to break down, just bloomin’ inconvenient!

            Alexissmith2016, I am in awe of you! Not entitled, just carefree, and I love it! 😍

        4. BC30 says:

          I did this exact same thing, “getting back” by doing things with or for others. My ET was heightened.

          1. Leigh says:

            Agreed. It does heighten my ET. Since coming here, I realize I don’t actually “get back” at my husband when I would do those things with workplace narc. Workplace narc just ended up hurting me in the long run. Although, there is a small piece of me that does get enjoyment out of knowing I got over on him. Its always short lived though.

        5. vandenboss says:

          ”you’re running low on gas” Response; and you’re running low on fuel! Why not manipulate them to have sex together? Secretly film it and then control them with it.

          1. Leigh says:

            Manipulate who to have sex together? I’m confused by your statement.

          2. TheVimtoSlut says:

            Leigh

            It means an exercise in futility. Male narc meets female narc car. Where for art though, Fuel?

            I was attempting to manifest my own fuel, compost today. New compost bin. The flimiest piece of CRAP I’ve ever bought.

            One part missing. Lid doesn’t work. No bottom. Keeps falling apart. I’m annoyed as I really wanted to get it going. Well, back it goes!

            I’m weeding too. They’ve sprung up everywhere and quickly. Levers, small thistles and bloody bindweed. Thats been the scourge of my life before.i

            Gonna be even hotter tomorrow. Imagine running out of petrol on a day like today!

          3. Asp Emp says:

            TheVimtoSlut, “the flimsiest piece of crap” made me laugh. Is there something else you can use as a compost bin instead of buying one? The garden waste bin had no lid when I moved into my house, so the council sent me a new one. I now use both as water butts instead (I’d connected it together as a one-way-system to the drain pipe)!! I mowed my lawn earlier today, gardened Sunday & yesterday. It’s due to rain tomorrow night – maybe I’ll take a cold shower in the dark.

          4. TheVimtoSlut says:

            Asp Emp

            It truly is vexatious when the best laid plans go to nothing. Ideally, I’d like water butt’s too. Cunning idea linking them together!

            Anyway, its back in its sodding flatpack and it can Fuck. Right. Off. I have a temporary solution.

            Raining tomorrow night? I wonder if we will get thunder? I think your outside shower is a splendid idea. I’d do it too but it could prove to be quite awkward if I do it as I would wish…

  11. Asp Emp says:

    I have to say that in some way, I can understand BC30’s comment “Well boy howdy holy fuck it got SPICY in here HOT DAMN! Copious material for my EDC/TDC studies”.

    And there is poor HG, moderating the comments as they come.

    We all have different perspectives. We all have opinions. We all have personality traits. We all have differentiating experiences. We all have a ‘voice’ and the ‘right to be heard’.

    It is all very well having a debate, yet sometimes it can get a bit too extreme……. ‘The Asylum of the Grotesque’ – we are not.

    I referred to ‘The Asylum of the Grotesque’ simply because it appears another ‘fly-by seagull’ visited with their “opinion” and apparent lack of awareness about narcissism…… slagging off our HG undeservedly.

    Think about HG, working really hard and giving his time, his education, his Legacy (his longer term goal) – for us ALL. Yes, we all benefit.

    We ALL have the same aim here, to empower ourselves against narcissism.

    1. Eternity says:

      Wow, Asp Emp, this thread got extremely interesting. I am neutral not taking sides. I had to pop more popcorn last night just reading these comments instead of watching a movie.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Eternity, thank you for your response. Good to see you around again 🙂

  12. BC30 says:

    Well boy howdy holy fuck it got SPICY 🔥 in here HOT DAMN! 🤠

    Copious material for my EDC/TDC studies. 👀

    1. A Victor says:

      BC30. Love the new avi! That is almost exactly how I’ve pictured you! What’s the copious material? Where is it hot and spicy??

      1. BC30 says:

        Ty 🙂

    2. A Victor says:

      Oh, right, justl ooked at the thread. Thought I remembered it. Never mind BC30.

    3. WiserNow says:

      BC30,

      It did get a bit hot and spicy 🔥😳

      If this was a cooking show, there would be three chilli peppers under this ‘recipe’ 🌶🌶🌶

      1. A Victor says:

        WiserNow, it is good for my learning, I shy away from conflict in a big way (think running add fast as I can in the opposite direction!), unless there is a child or possibly an animal involved. It makes me nauseous, literally. So it’s good to know is okay to do so and we will survive. I’m still not going to participate though, not if there’s a way to avoid it! 😂

        1. WiserNow says:

          I know what you mean AV.

          As empathic children of narcissists, that was the instinctive reaction we had – to avoid conflict. It was a way to cope with the situation as a child. A child isn’t yet able to ‘cognitively’ assess the situation and wants to stay ‘attached’ to their parent – even though the narcissistic parent is lying, controlling and self-serving and hasn’t got the empathic ability needed to raise a child adequately.

          Now that we’re adults, we no longer ‘need’ that instinctive reaction we had as children. As long as it’s safe to do so, as adults we can change the instinctive reaction and use ‘conflict’ in a constructive way. That ‘conflict’ may be to stand your ground if you know you are right or simply ignore those who want to ‘control’ you.

          1. A Victor says:

            WiserNow,
            I am very, very careful about the battles I pick. They must be for something that I value more than my lack of desire to “fight”. I am capable of disagreeing, I just do not see that in most cases it is productive. As a result I usually check myself prior to any engagement, and weigh how strongly I actually feel about it. I look forward to the day I can have a boisterous discussion with a romantic partner and we walk away undamaged and happy to be together, even with a difference of opinion. That would be almost fun, I enjoy verbal sparring, in a trusted situation. And it is a learning curve, at some level, as I’ve not had such a romantic situation in my life, there have always been emotions and pressure and word salad involved. Compromise comes fairly easy to me, as a parent there was a lot of practice doing that and teaching others to, so I think that is a pretty stable area, for me. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts, I am processing everything and it all helps. 🙂

          2. WiserNow says:

            AV,

            I understand and relate to the need to choose your battles carefully. There’s no point in endless circular arguments just for the sake of ‘fighting’ and trying to gain ‘control’. Sometimes that causes even more damage and it makes things even harder. As you say, it’s not productive.

            As you said in one of your earlier comments, it’s a case of ‘balance’. I think the problem is that the narcissist is blind to that need for ‘balance’. To them, any concession on their part feels like a total loss of control, so they will fight to the death (metaphorically speaking) not to give an inch.

            Yes, ‘compromise’ comes easier to an empath because they have empathy and can see and feel things from another person’s ‘perspective’. When it’s the empath who *constantly* compromises, even when they haven’t done anything to deserve the ‘blame’, the balance is lost though. It also shows the narcissist that it will be easy to exploit the empath, so they have no limits to their own abusive and entitled behaviour.

          3. A Victor says:

            Yes, I was constantly “compromising” when it came to my ex. It was really a case of giving in and giving up, unless it involved something that would be bad for my children, that’s the line I had. He crossed it at the end and we ended. The ending took a year, during which time I believe I was pretty much in supernova mode whenever I was around him. That battle was worth the fight, I came out stronger for it and in a better place with him gone. Narcsite wasn’t a thing yet then, I didn’t even look for answers as to what happened, I attributed it to drug addiction. But looking back it was far beyond that. Finding Narcsite has provided so many answers as to what actually did happen, things I could not get my head around for all those years. It has been a godsend.

          4. WiserNow says:

            AV,
            I understand and I can relate about finding Narcsite. HG explains the narcissist’s perspective and behaviours very well. His practical advice is very helpful. His articles and videos have provided me with answers and information about the narcissists in my life – information I couldn’t find anywhere else.

            When I first found Narcsite several years ago, some of the empathic comments below HG’s articles back then were just as helpful as the articles themselves. For the first time ever, I felt validated by people who had lived through the same kind of situations.

            Those commenters gave compassionate and inclusive information. For once, I felt understood and reassured. I didn’t feel scapegoated or patronised or labelled or treated like my views needed to change. There was no sense of ‘winning’ or ‘losing’ an ‘argument’. There was no ‘lecturing’ by someone who felt they *never* needed to apologise for anything.

            Since those days, I have kept learning and will continue to do so, from both Narcsite and other sources of information I find elsewhere.

            Thank you for your comments A Victor. I wish you all the best with your situation.

          5. A Victor says:

            WN, you got it! Validation for the insanity I’ve experienced! The compassion and understanding here have been invaluable to me! Thank you for your comments and also the well wishes. You have been an encouraging part of my journey.

          6. WiserNow says:

            Thank you A Victor 🙂 That’s very kind of you, and you’re very welcome.

            Living with a narcissist for many years certainly feels like insanity! In your case you have raised children with one too, which is a heroic thing to do.

          7. A Victor says:

            WN, nooooo, not heroic!!!! No other choice! Lol! I had to come out of that living with myself so I had no choice but to do it the best I could figure out to do. See, purely selfish! I am a selfish empath. I am cry/laughing as I write this. Of course I love my children but it was literally a ‘job’, my career really, and I took it very seriously. They benefited but really, not heroic at all, simply what had to be done. And I wish I would’ve known how to do it better. That’s where I can become angry with my parents but I’m choosing not to go there nowadays. It’s easier that way. WN, your comments can bring a lot of emotion out in me, is it ET? Or just normal emotion? I can’t tell. Maybe this needs to go on my HG list, where do these emotions come from. Thank you WN, probably good for my learning. 🤔😃

          8. WiserNow says:

            Hi A Victor,

            Thank you for your message and for your honesty too. You may not see yourself as ‘heroic’ when it comes to raising your children, however, I think that you are 🙂

            It’s interesting to me that you say, “I had to come out of that living with myself so I had no choice but to do it the best I could figure out to do.” To me, that is an overall ’empathic’ thing to say, plus it also has a small grain of ‘narcissism’ in it too. You wanted to be able to look back one day and say, “I did the best I could for my children so that they would be loved and I would be satisfied with myself as a parent.”

            From what I see, you learned from your parents and you wanted to do better. That’s perfectly understandable. The direction you ‘instinctively’ took was to love your children in an empathic way as much as you possibly could. You say you had ‘no other choice’ and I believe you. I also see that the feeling you had of ‘no other choice’ was an instinctive subconscious move into ’empathy’. That’s not really a ‘choice’ as such, because it’s not ‘conscious’. It’s an instinct or subconscious reaction.

            The more I read and think about things here on Narcsite, the more I can see things more clearly. Thank you A Victor. Your explanations help me to understand my own thoughts and ‘perceptions’.

            I’m not really sure why I bring a lot of emotion out in you… 🙂 It reminds me of a funny line a friend used to say when I’d sneeze etc… “better out than in” 😉

            I don’t think it’s ET. I’m more inclined to think that it’s normal emotion. This subject is so close to home (literally!) that it affects us in very deep ways and it shines a light on many things that have affected us and our lives since day one. There’s a lot of ‘cognitive dissonance’ and conflicted thoughts and feelings that we are trying to unravel and sort out.

            I don’t think it’s possible to think about all that with ‘logic’ only. There is going to be emotion involved too. When you let the emotion rise to the surface and then look at it and try to understand it without judgement, I think that’s a positive thing. It means that the ’emotion’ is turning into a ‘cognitive’ understanding.

            I read an article somewhere (I can’t remember the title or author details) and it talked about ‘mentalizing’. This is a process of taking an emotion or instinctive reaction etc and considering it in a ‘cognitive’ way. People can do this by journaling their thoughts in a diary etc, or by talking and explaining their thoughts in a forum like this, or by talk therapy etc.

            The process is supposed to help us to understand our instinctive reactions and emotions in a more cognitive way so that they don’t cause us as much discomfort or confusion or ‘maladaptive’ coping mechanisms etc.

            That’s how I tend to interpret the ’emotions’ you’re having during these conversations. They are rising to the surface as ‘messages’ that can help you understand things in a different or perhaps, helpful way.

            You’re welcome AV, and thank you very much to you also. You help me learn more about my own thoughts and reactions too.

          9. A Victor says:

            WN,
            Well, that I can accept, thank you.

            Yes, I did learn from my parents. As a result, I consciously thought every single day for years about every decision I made on how to parent exactly opposite of how my parents had done it. Literally. It was exhausting. But I knew it was only for a limited amount of time as children grow up. The sad thing was that I didn’t “feel” love for my children for years, not until my third one was born. This is difficult to explain but my love was a decision to do the best I could every day, not a feeling. I had not been taught about love, instead I had long since buried my feelings. I learned a lot about love from my children and how they loved me, with such an innocent and free expression of it. I view that as a gift, it eventually allowed me to dare to look into my feelings. That has been an unfolding process over many years, expedited much by being here. Now I feel sometimes so strongly I don’t know what to do, so I cry, or laugh. It is settling down now I think, becoming more tied to actual reasons, not just set off by something and leaving me wondering where it came from.

            Haha, “better out than in” gave me a good laugh!

            I have been using the blog for “mentalizing” as you call it, it has been very helpful and I think somehow HG knew we would need it, not sure how he knew that.

            Yes, I feel discomfort with acknowledgement, my brain, my heart really, immediately rejects it, I really don’t like it and I really don’t need it (my reactions and thoughts when it happens). It is something from my upbringing, I think because whenever my parents did it, it felt off somehow. I haven’t sorted through this yet. But it is definitely a thing. Part of it is because when I make a decision and proceed with action, I will have researched it to whatever extent I feel it needs researching and I will have come to my decision as informed as possible. Please remember that I became very self sufficient, I had no support growing up so it wasn’t a choice, it was a way to survive, to get things done. So my dad would say “Well done”. It made me cringe. I don’t understand why except that he didn’t know anything about the process behind it and I did. His “praise” was virtually nonexistent in my childhood and when it happened in my adulthood…did it make me feel he was taking credit somehow?? Maybe that’s it? I don’t know. Or was it because it only happened when he agreed with my decision? I don’t feel like either of those with you of course.

            Another part of it is that there is no need to in the sense that I am frugal with my time, hahaha, so who needs to take time for compliments or affirmations?? It’s emotional, it’s a waste of time. Wow, this conversation is helping me to figure out a few things.

            My mother, it was either fake to manipulate or used to compare against her either in her favor or to give her opportunity for a pity play, all also manipulations. And so I learned to accept simply knowing in myself that I had done my best and didn’t need credit from others (see independence above:)). And so now, when it happens, it makes me uncomfortable. Do I need to change this? I don’t know. And it is only certain things, the things closest to my heart, that would bother me from someone other than my parents. Like, my mom can’t even tell me I look nice, my brain goes to “What does she want?”. Other people can say that but to compliment my child rearing for example, certainly calling it heroic, no, my brain immediately goes to the mistakes, the things I could’ve done better, how I “failed” in some way, and I don’t feel like the credit is due. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to begin to sort this out and the thoughts you gave to start me on this path. 🙂

          10. WiserNow says:

            Hi A Victor,

            Thank you for your reply – it’s very honest and generous and explains your thinking well. If I have made you feel uncomfortable in any way, please know that that wasn’t the intention.

            I can understand and relate to a lot of what you said – about the self-sufficiency, the questioning about people’s ‘real’ intentions, the cringe-factor when you get ‘praise’.

            Perhaps my ‘approach’ is a bit too intense at times. You have made me think about some of the things I say. While my intention is good and well-meaning, I haven’t been asked for it, so a light-touch is always preferable. I think that ’emotions’ are delicate and complex and they come from a wide variety of different places (histories, experiences etc). There’s no ‘one-size-fits-all’. I can see that we all have our own take on this subject sometimes and we can talk and learn from each other, however, ultimately, our thoughts and feelings will be our own to figure out in our own way.

            I appreciate your comment and your thoughts too A Victor, and thank you again for explaining your thought process and impressions 🙂

          11. A Victor says:

            Hi WN,
            I do understand your intent and I feel that the conversation has been a good place to sort out some of this, on my end anyway, you know, as to why some things bother me that likely shouldn’t etc. I’ve heard HG say somewhere that empaths just go about their business, not looking for reward or notice for what they do and I actually think a good part of it goes with that as well. Narcissists thrive on being noticed and we reject it, funny.

            Any discomfort I feel or don’t feel from your comments only encourages me to look at some things, and I appreciate that a lot. I can’t address things unless they are in front of me and I’m seeing them. I have not found your approach intense, only thought provoking. I speak only for myself, of course.

            Thank you for listening to my thought processes, that means a great deal to me. That is one thing I craved as a child and with my parents did not receive. My personality is one of ideas and I learned early that I would be shot down for them so I don’t express them unless asked or they come up naturally in a conversation, and even then, without being explicitly asked, I am very cautious. In my real life, I get annoyed when people offer me opinions without me asking so I don’t do that in return. Here on the blog it is a bit different, we are here to exchange thoughts and ideas and other things, so I am more comfortable saying something, but still try to be delicate about it if possible. ET can challenge that of course. What has always bothered me is that people don’t understand that I get that not all of my ideas/thoughts are useful, as such I am quite laid back about them being rejected, unless the rejection comes before the thought is actually heard. This is a place validation is important to me, or maybe how I feel validated, not in the complete acceptance of all ideas, that would be impossible. Perhaps that is why I enjoy blogging so much, much more than spending time with most people in real life, I know, don’t shoot me, that’s just how it is. Thanks again, I enjoy our exhanges.

          12. A Victor says:

            exchanges*

          13. WiserNow says:

            Thank you A Victor, your comment makes sense to me and I can understand your thoughts and feelings. I wouldn’t say a lot of what I say here in ‘real life’, mainly because in general, people either don’t say much about themselves and are uncomfortable with these sorts of discussions and also, it’s difficult to be so honest. Plus, there’s limited time. It can also open up other issues that can make life more complicated.

            I enjoy the thought-provoking ideas and discussions here on the blog very much. It has helped me in many ways, so I enjoy blogging a lot too.

            I haven’t commented on your son, mainly because I don’t have children, so I can’t speak from experience. Remembering back to when I was a teenager though, I tend to agree with NA about having a ‘gentle’ kind of discussion with your son. There were times when I was that age that I felt like I would have liked some input from my parents about certain things and at the time, my parents had the attitude that I was mature enough to figure things out for myself. As a teenager, that made me feel alone and also like they didn’t really care enough to become involved. They probably did ‘care’, they just thought that I would ask if I needed help. I know that’s not the case with you, and it’s very difficult to know exactly how each person perceives different things.

            In my opinion though, if you take the lead in having respectful communication with your son, it would greatly benefit his own sense of how to evaluate things and also your relationship with him. As a teenager, I felt like there were things left to me to ‘decide’ that I wasn’t experienced or confident enough to decide on my own at that time. Teenagers are faced with a lot of life-changing decisions that they’re not really equipped to know about at that age. Just my two cents. Whatever you decide to do AV, I wish you and your son all the best.

          14. A Victor says:

            Thank you WN, I appreciate you sharing your experience as a teen and thoughts regarding my son. Another angle I had not considered and good food for thought to add to the rest. Thank you also for the well wishes!

          15. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome AV 🙂

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            As an ACON, throughout your childhood I imagine it would be impossible to offer an opposing view to that of the parental narcissist as it would be seen only as a threat to control. The alternative opinion would lead to conflict and as such it is entirely understandable that an association between differences of opinion and the idea of conflict is formed.

            I think there is a difference between healthy debate and conflict. In my view debate doesn’t need to lead to conflict at all. People can, will and should have opposing views. Often it is these opposing views that can lead to problem solutions.

            There is an article below about conflict in the workplace and how this can harnessed to garner positive results. I don’t necessarily agree with the way ‘conflict’ is used in the article. That’s just my personal view, to me ‘conflict’ has negative connotations and debate has positive. I still think it’s a useful article though. Xx

            https://slack.com/intl/en-gb/blog/productivity/conflict-in-the-workplace-can-be-constructive

          17. A Victor says:

            Thank you for the link TS, I will check it out today when I am able, that conversation is one that interests me very much. I have at times been quite a prolific commenter on blogs and places that interest me online. I do not shy away from a good debate, if the other person involved is actually a thinking person, I don’t deal with trolls for the most part. But one thing that has surprised me is that quite often at the end of such a back and forth the other person will tell me how nice it was to have an actual discussion, with the back and forth, not just shooting at each other. This is the best way for another to hear us, in my opinion. My ex, and my mother, were more like the trolls, the ones who don’t want to hear anything real or reasonable, they just want to be a problem. That is a waste of time and once I realized that’s what they were doing, discussion ended. But, sadly, with my ex it took a long time and a lot of fuel for him before I realized it was pointless. It never made sense to me but I accepted that there was no talking to him. It really made for a quieter life once I did. Lonely but quiet.

            I agree that debate and conflict can be separated and in my mind, as you say, they have been blended so it is difficult for me to separate. As a result, I don’t do either much, and I really really hate conflict. That’s when, unless I have no option, I will walk away. The option is based on who it is, most people are not important enough for me to go through “conflict” over. And, since it is tied to debate, I won’t debate most people either. Thus, most people don’t get to know me, beyond a stated opinion and then only if I am asked. I am really fine with that. I don’t care about changing others minds, I care about educating, enlightening, empowering, myself and my kids when they were young first, then others who cared to ask. If that results in a changed view for the other person, so be it. If not, I may have learned something that will change my mind, also okay. But if the only result is that we understand where the other is coming from, that’s fine also, there doesn’t need to be pushing for anything more. But I have had the experience so often of people wanting me to accept their view, and pushing it, that I don’t usually feel it is of value to discuss, debate, share, offer etc, because so often people don’t care why you believe as you do, they just want to find out and then change you. It really pisses me off, honestly. And since I don’t care to be angry all the time, I just don’t do it.

            One of the things that has been an issue for me is that people have thought they needed to impart their knowledge to me on how to live, what I should do, what to think etc. This has been a major frustration in my life in general. I mentioned it somewhere else on the blog once, I think because of my appearance or presentation, people think it’s ok to do this to me. I have come to understand, through my learning here, that empaths will do this because they care, maybe normals also, and that I don’t need to take offense, I need to ascertain where it’s coming from and then decide how I want to respond. Also, I have pride as my highest N trait, I believe this is also a thing that has caused me to take offense where others might ignore or otherwise respond to something said. That is another piece I have been looking at. There is a woman in my life at this time who has “offended” me three times over the course of a month or so. The third time I decided not to discuss it with her as it was the third time. I am confused about how to proceed in such a circumstance. I believe her to be an empath and I know she is going through a rough time. My daughter told me to back away from her so I have but, it is something I need to figure out more about, how to determine these things from a logical standpoint. Glad for HG with regard to this, I have had no one else to learn about using logic from.

            Thank you for the reply TS, sorry for my lengthy one. It is something that has been on my mind so I appreciate you “listening”. I hope I didn’t bore you to sleep!

          18. Leigh says:

            AV says, “It never made sense to me but I accepted that there was no talking to him. It really made for a quieter life once I did. Lonely but quiet.”

            That’s where I’m at now. For now, I will take the quieter life.

            As for the woman that offended you, if you have discussed it with her two times prior and she still crossed that boundary again, I think its a red flag. I agree with your daughter & TS and I think you should back off a little bit. If I offended someone and they told me I offended them, I wouldn’t do it again. I would be mortified and would want to make it right. I wouldn’t continue to do it.

          19. A Victor says:

            Just saw this Leigh, thank you for that confirmation, I am the same way, would want to make it right. I needed to hear that.

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Sorry, that should read ‘I don’t necessarily agree with the way the word ‘conflict’ is used in the article’.

          21. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow and A Victor, we just got home last night. Thanks for the responses to me and to AV and TS for the kind comments about my husband.

            I have read your discussion a few days ago but didn’t have the time to write the things I want to add. People who experienced trauma such as us have three responses and I’m sure you both have already read about the Fight, Fawn, Freeze and Flight responses to conflicts or traumatic experiences or experiences that bring us back to our traumatic experiences in the past. From what I have read they are all equally valid responses to protect ourselves or our nervous system. A Victor describes a Flight response. GOSO is a kind of a Flight response I think and I think it is the most ideal and the first choice for me now personally. I remember a friend used a phrase that stuck in my head, “Don’t hang around to be abused”.

            Fight response a lot of times look like narcissism. I have experienced that too and I was actually accused of being a narcissist here. It includes adapting an inflated sense of self to heal the ego that has been so abused by the narcissists and being defensive. This is what I was worried about what Jordan Peterson was saying as trying to channel the inner monster. Empaths do not have inner monster that they control or curtail, we normally have a positive inner core but because of the accumulation of abusive experiences there can be an inner anger or rage inside that might explode and appear like a monster. That is the fight response. But unfortunately it can make us susceptible to being smeared or misunderstood. I remember a story by HG of his ex that confronted him while he was playing golf and he was just showing her behavior to illustrate to his coterie that she is unhinged or crazy and one of them was so concerned and even asked HG if he should remove the woman out of there. That is why I don’t think Jordan Peterson’s monster approach is that effective towards warding off narcissists because Empaths are terrible at that because their monsters are not calculated as the narcissist’s monsters and usually backfired against us. HG has explained this concept many times in different ways already.

            But I think whatever our responses are, it is important to be kind to ourselves and be thankful that we are not pathologically stuck forever in a pattern of behavior. We can always grow and learn from our mistakes and strive towards the balance that works the best for us.

          22. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            You make a lot of sense and I understand what you mean. Empaths aren’t designed to ‘fight’ or to strive to have control at all times. It can work for a while when emotional empathy is eroded, however, it is not a ‘natural’ state.

            The ‘fight’ response is needed when you’re stuck in a situation and can’t get out easily or quickly. To me, there are different ways to ‘fight’ and it doesn’t always mean that you’ll turn into a monster. I’m learning that cognitive awareness and staying in control of your own emotions (as much as possible) can ‘moderate’ the ‘fight’ response.

            For instance, HG has said in different posts that saying something once without emotion or saying things in ways that don’t provide much fuel (by text or email rather than in person, or by proxy etc) are ways to deal with narcissists.

            Overall, though, I know what you mean. By ‘arguing’ you are engaging with a narc and giving them fuel and it is not productive or helpful to you. I’m glad and thankful that empaths can learn from mistakes and keep refining our learning.

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Thank you for explaining. No snoozing here at all x. I need a longer explanation on topics like this because I can only estimate the narc influence and it’s impact on ACON’s. No real experience to draw from. I can offer up a contrast but that’s only my view, and even with a ‘normal’ mother I’m still kind of a product of my childhood.

            Differing opinions was where my mum turned more narcy.
            My mum would get frustrated if I didn’t agree with her. Sometimes she would lose her temper, other times not. I wasn’t afraid of holding my position though and there were no penalties as such. If however, my way was proven to be wrong, if I messed up, then it was very much a ‘Well if you had listened to me that wouldn’t have happened ‘approach. As I got older I stopped confiding and giving my real opinion altogether. Not secretive necessarily but in many ways I’d say my mum doesn’t really know me that well so quite similar to your comment. That has carried through into relationships. I don’t confide. Top line stuff but beyond that, I’m not used to it and actually, I’m very much like you are with hugs. If pressed I’ll physically back up.

            I know what you mean about the trolls. They’re easy to spot now. I don’t bother continuing either. Pointless exercise. Empaths are different I think in that I don’t think we seek to change others but we do seek to help others and in certain interactions, online particularly, that is possibly not always clear.

            Agree totally with the idea of it depends who you are debating with, family members, friends etc, Those for me are easier because it’s always ok to disagree. That reassurance that they’ll still care afterwards. Outside of that I also ask myself ‘How bothered are you? Is it worth it?’ Any number of factors can influence that for me. The person, if it’s work or social, setting, even my mood I think. I don’t avoid a debate, but I won’t enter into it if I don’t know my subject. When I do debate, I enjoy it. I enjoy it because I learn something. People fascinate me, so sometimes it’s just the behavioural aspect as opposed to the topic up for debate.

            Conflict is different again. I don’t think many people like conflict, other than narcissists. Narcissists are the only ones that get anything out of it in my view. I think most would avoid it if possible. Again I think some empaths will keep going longer in a conflict situation to find a resolution. We don’t like things being unresolved in general, we want to fix and bring balance back so I think this translates in a conflict situation too. For me there is a tipping point though. I’ll try to resolve a conflict, but only for so long. When I’m done I’m done. Similar to the ruling out thing.

            The friend / acquaintance you mention who has caused offence. That might be a case of tipping point reached. You have explained how you feel, explained again and still the same behaviour. So for me, I would follow your instinct there. The line has been crossed. It doesn’t matter where that line is. Yours might be easier to cross than mine or vice versa. What matters I think is how that interaction makes you feel. If that’s not good, then it’s time to cut loose. I think your daughter offered wise advice.

            I know Co Dependents will tend to stay in conflict situations longer. They’ll take the discomfort of the conflict to try to find the resolution. Again, schools and cadres will have a considerable degree of influence on how we behave in conflict situations, schools and cadres will be largely due to childhood environment and experience, so again we come full circle! Ha ha. Good place to leave it I think! Xx

          24. A Victor says:

            TS, I know you wanted to leave it, and I understand this, so I hope it’s not a problem if I reply to a couple of things.

            First, I could get narcy with my kids over a difference of opinion also, that’s sometimes what I consider my prerogative as their mother. And I’m glad to know that your normal mother did this too!! That affirms that I was ok to do so, and it didn’t happen often. I appreciate you sharing that. My kids don’t confide everything to me but I view this as a normal and healthy thing, since they are adults. They also know that I respect those areas where we differ in opinion, now, and that they can talk to me about anything, now that they’re adults, and the response is not as it was when they were still my responsibility. But I don’t want or need to know things that are private to them now, unlike my narc mom. She would love it if I bared my soul and has always tried to find out everything she can. It’s been a challenge.

            The other thing I wanted to thank you for, from your comment, is bringing up that we, as empaths, will continue longer in a conflict in an effort to find a resolution. That is a good thing for me to be aware of. I don’t do it, except with those narcs I care about. But, no point even then. So thank you. I am not CoD at all but it can still catch me if I let my ET get too high, in the moment.

            Thank you again, I have enjoyed this back and forth, I have felt a bit exposed but I think that’s ok, maybe even good. Things that I typically won’t share but maybe should sometimes. 🙂

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey AV,

            Sorry my fault, the end of my last comment wasn’t clear. I meant, circling back round to the conversations we’ve had about cadres and schools was a good place to end my rather lengthy comment, not ‘conversation over’. X

            It’s interesting you mention your mum wanted to know everything that was going on with you and (I suspect) not in a direct way or for honourable reasons. Motivation is important again. As mothers we worry, so we do want to know what is going on with our kids. We can’t help them otherwise. My mum also took the sneaky route though. Snooping, routing through my room, reading my diary etc. Privacy invasion. Like you, I encourage my kids to talk and I work hard to keep lines of communication open. If they mess up they know I’ll always be on their side. I don’t go the ‘told you so’ route like my mum. I feel sad for them that things have gone wrong, not proud of myself that I was right.

            If I want to know something, I ask direct, I don’t snoop. I’m very hot on privacy because mine was invaded. I do understand why though and none of us are perfect, it’s just not something I could do myself. If their phone was open on a chat app on the bed, I’d turn it face down and tidy up round it haha! If I ask to see the phone though, I would hope they would respect my reasons for doing so. It’s a fine line isn’t it? Trust, privacy, teens, safety etc.

            So I do get why my mum was as she was, fear. The motivation was protectiveness, it wasn’t control as I suspect was the case with your mum. The execution though was similar and, my responses to her actions were also similar to your responses to the actions of your mum. So in the areas of differing opinions and privacy, we have similar experiences. In other areas of childhood experience though we will be poles apart. The narcissistic influence will have infected all aspects of childhood for you, not just a couple of areas. My mum’s narcissistic traits only lit up in very specific areas. The rest of the time she was loving and supportive.

            This might be part of the reason why empaths don’t need to be formed through having a narcissist as a parent. All people have differing levels of narcissistic traits and those traits will light up more in certain circumstances. So the empath born of normal parents still has exposure to narcissistic behaviours in specific areas and to varying degrees. Enough to form the school and cadre of empath, but with a vastly reduced risk of forming a narcissist.

            Even empathic parents will make mistakes when it comes to parenting. No one gets it totally right. Strict, not strict enough, supportive or smothering? One thing is for sure though the motivations are entirely different and the emotional impact of a narcissistic parent is all encompassing, that’s the thing I think. It must invade every single aspect, memory and experience. It is quite amazing when you think how ACON’s inherently know the way to be with their own kids, given the way they were raised themselves. They seem to take the damage caused by the narc into themselves, feel the impact in other relationships but they don’t pass it on to their own children. That’s what it seems like to me from the accounts I read here. Doesn’t really come more empathic than that does it really ? Xx

          26. A Victor says:

            TS, yes, my mom wanted and wants to not only know everything about my life but to change everything that she doesn’t agree with to her way of doing and thinking. She is a fkg control freak. Hahaha, definition of a narcissist I guess! This is a fkd up day. I am trying to stay positive. Anyway, I never snooped on my kids either. Until the last year, two times, maybe three. And each time I found various drugs in my son’s room. This only after he told me last Aug that he’d gotten into them, hence the reason. Today was the most recent and I am dreading the upcoming conversation. He will have to go to rehab or move out. I’m fkg bummed. This is one of the times when conflict will happen, I will hate it but it will because I care about him enough to do it. Anyway, your comment was timely given this. I am a very private person, made that way by my intrusive mother, so my kids have gotten away with a lot, most of which I found out about years later. And it scares the crap out of me that he might be a narcissist too. I don’t even know how to find out, there’s nothing to put on a narc detector. You are correct, my mother influenced everything and what she didn’t, my dad did. I am glad for you that you have a nice mother. And I think your theory may be pretty solid. Something I have wondered about too.

            Your last paragraph is encouraging. We, as empathic parents, are not perfect, but we do get more right than narc parents. And we offer unconditional genuine love to our kids.

          27. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I have just come across this comment. RE: your son telling you about the drugs. The fact he told you says a lot – hell of a lot. It’s his choice of a ‘coping mechanism’. Don’t feel guilty as a parent. You did not cause his ‘issues’. He told you, out of ‘guilt / honesty’? His way of reaching out for support from you? He is a young man, needing guidance, he is not mature enough to know better at his age. Why not speak to a drug counselling organisation first? Get some advice? There is a reason why he started in the first place. Remember you used to have your own ‘coping mechanism’? Your ET as a mother is reacting (you also have all the other stuff going on). It may not need go as far as rehab nor him leaving home. Have a think, not react with your emotions too quick. Hope it can be sorted x

          28. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, thank you, your comment is very reassuring and uplifting. You are correct, he did tell me and there was a reason. You are the second person to suggest talking with a counselor, I had already tried that yesterday but I won’t be able to reach anyone until Tues the way it looks. But they have a voicemail and an email so I hope they will call. Yes, I have wondered if the rejection by his dad is hitting him now, at the brink of manhood. I have tried but I am not a dad. That’s a gap only my son can find a way to fill I think now. I am so sad for him, and my girls also, to not have a dad. But, I actually think they’re better off without their dad. I only said the rehab/move out because the first time I found stuff in his room I told him he could not live here and do that. But I will work with him if he is willing. Thank you, I hope it can be sorted too.

          29. Leigh says:

            AV, I agree with Asp on this. I think the fact that he came to you, he’s reaching out for help. Also the fact that he left it on his desk seems like he wanted you to find it. Plus he wants to go to the movies with you. They all seem like signs.

            I think you should really consider talking to a drug counselor. I don’t think giving him an ultimatum. will work. I think it might make the situation worse. I know enabling him isn’t good either. Thats why I think a drug counselor may help. They may have other suggestions. Maybe your son can do out patient counseling.

            Maybe there are former addicts on here that can help too.

            I’m so sorry AV. Stay strong! When you need to vent, we are here!

          30. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, Leigh. What you have said is very supportive & wise RE: son reaching out etc. People have different ways & methods of ‘coping strategies’ yet may still struggle to communicate. I have seen it in other people.

          31. A Victor says:

            I think you and Asp Emp are correct, I saw all of that as him wanting to get help and not knowing the best way to go about it. I hope that is correct. I thought the counselor would call today but they did not so I will call them again tomorrow. No, I wrote the ultimatum in a moment of emotion, right after I found the drugs. Maybe he could so outpatient, I’d been thinking the year inpatient option, lol, I do tend to extremes on occasion. But outpatient might be a really good option actually, thanks. I appreciate your last two sentences, the encouragement is helpful.

          32. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I totally understand the drivers behind checking your son’s room.
            I’m sorry you found what you hoped not to find. I agree you need to discuss it with your son. He likely sees it as ‘no big deal’. It is to you though. He needs to understand that. Not under your roof is a fair thing to say to him. You are worried for him, he also should understand that and why.

            I see why you fear conflict. He might turn it into conflict. If he does, that’s on him not you. It is a problem that the two of you can resolve together and this approach is the best outcome for him as well as you. Hopefully he will realise this over coming days.

            I hope the conversation goes better than you anticipate. Have confidence in yourself AV. You will handle this the right way. Here for you if you need to talk.

            The narc detector might not serve the same purpose in the situation of your son. Perhaps HG could suggest some amendments, some open questions for you to express concerns if some of the format doesn’t fit. Or you could suggest replacement questions yourself perhaps? You probably aren’t the first empath to have worries about their children in this respect. HG will find a way to make the NDC work I’m sure, if the Narc Detector idea was a route you wanted to take.

            There is always a way xx

          33. A Victor says:

            TS,
            I feel guilty even taking the stuff from his room, looking in there, even asking him if can go in when he’s not there. This relates back to the boundary issues I have.

            I have been having thoughts over the last few months of finding him dead on his bed, not an intentionally intentional thing but and accidental intentional thing. When it was some pot and shrooms I was concerned but less so. What I found yesterday though is a step up both in the addictive quality and the danger quality. Stuff that he could actually die from, and quite randomly. I worked as an EMT for a period and saw drug overdoses, those are not something anyone wants their kid to put their body or their brain through. Also, narcan and other things are good for some things out there but what he’s doing is not reversible, should it hit him badly.

            The weird thing was that he had left one thing right on his desk in plain site. And he came out of his room today and talked to me like nothing has happened. I’m not sure what to make of that. He asked if we could go to a movie tomorrow. So weird. Anyway, I am not going to talk to him until he brings it up. Or unless some reason presents itself that I have to. I mean, I took a few hundred dollars worth of stuff out of there, he’s bound to wonder at some point, right?

            Thanks for listening and for the suggestions.

          34. Leigh says:

            He asked you to go to the movies? I think he’s reaching out. I would suggest taking him up on his offer. Maybe go to lunch too so you can talk. In my experience, when my girls ask me to do something, it’s because they have something to ask me or tell me.

          35. A Victor says:

            We did go to A Quiet Place Part 2, it was pretty good as semi-horror flicks go. We ate also but there was no talking about the drug situation, I want to talk to the professionals first and he didn’t bring it up, it’s really odd, he must know I took his stuff??? But yes, I don’t think I have ever turned my kids down to spend time with them unless I had a commitment I could not change or work around to accommodate them well. I think those doors being open are very important also. And he has been asking to spend a little more time with me lately, it is all odd.

          36. Leigh says:

            The fact that he wants to spend more time with you lately makes me think he wants your help but doesn’t know how to ask for it. I think its a good idea to wait to hear back from the drug counselor. Maybe just let your son know that you are there for him. Sometimes just knowing that will help.

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I hope you don’t mind me joining the conversation here, but I can imagine you are immensely concerned about your son right now. The fact he left some of his gear out for you to find, or is becoming careless, could indicate a cry for help. I say that because he appears to be a very thoughtful young man. If he wants to go to the movies with you tomorrow, that could be a good opportunity for you to have a conversation with him about what is going on for him and how he is coping. I’m not sure if there have been any other major events in his life lately, but it sounds like he wants to engage with you and that can only be a good thing. I can’t remember if you mentioned if he was still in school or what his plans might be coming into the summer there. It’s a tough call for any mother to have to confront something as concerning as drug use. I never knew my son had dabbled until he’d moved through that phase, but I’m pretty sure all of my kids had more a clue than I did about what each of them was up to, which really pissed me off when I found out. Drugs of choice would have been Ecstasy and Ketamine – he’s very much into the electro dance scene – and I never came across anything in our home, though I did respect his privacy, so potentially the dealing was done at the club. I never knew until he was out the other side of it, but exposure to drugs is almost guaranteed these days. How our kids handle it is a total unknown. I was fortunate in one sense that I didn’t have to confront it head on. Having said that, I would much rather have known and been able to step in to do the follow up around it. I think the fact it related to clubs and dance music kept it out of our home for the most part. Now he much prefers to just enjoy the music without the drugs. But peer influence is just one factor in terms of what might be going on. I really hope you are able to have the conversation with him, and getting some advice from a counsellor might also help.

            Going to keep you both in my thoughts and my prayers <3 xox

          38. A Victor says:

            LET, oh boy, does your experience sound like mine!! Both of my middle girls did a lot of things that I found out after the fact! My kids are all about 5 years apart so for the most part, the would tell on each other rather than join in or cover for them. Both older and younger did this. And also, for the most part due to the age difference, they didn’t hang out together so didn’t know what the other ones were doing. Anyway, my 3rd daughter went through alcohol treatment last year at the age of 22. And she’s the one who lived with the horrible abuser for 2 years prior to her treatment, which we didn’t learn about until the end. I am thankful that today she is doing well and has enrolled in some further schooling, is a responsible employee (she always was this). But she went through a lot early. So I am not a novice to this but honestly, my son is young man and I have no idea how that might change things, how I should respond. And what he’s doing scares me, inhalants and and opioid type of stuff, this is what I currently found. His dad’s drug of choice was opioids. But I do agree that my son wanted me to figure it out, so that gives me hope.

            I am so glad for the news that your son came through it okay, that is very encouraging. And I think you were blessed not to know, as I was with my girls. My reaction was different once I heard some things, I just kind of rolled my eyeballs and said, ‘well, I’m glad you figured it out’. Lol! I have my own history with alcohol though which likely gave me a different perspective.

            Thank you for the thoughts and prayers! I appreciate them!

          39. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, my kids are all close in ages and less likely to snitch on eachother for the most part. They were all relatively young at the time (18-22) going back about four years now. I’m not sure how much his sisters knew, but they would have known more than me – at least about what goes on in clubs as they all would have been clubbing around he same age! Not together, of course, but their awareness would have been far superior to mine. I think my focus was always on alcohol for the most part. For some reason that seemed the bigger danger. By the time I was clued up, it was all over and done with.

            I’m glad your younger daughter got the help she needed and has made such great progress. When mine try to tell me now what they got up to I just say “I don’t want to know” – basically it adds up to the fact they put one over on me and there’s nothing I can do about it now. Except wonder how they managed that, and to be grateful they came out on the other side.

            I remember being very conscious of inhalants when my kids were teens, and for the most part did not allow them in the house. What you shared just reminded me of that. Probably because I had an awareness that those types of seemingly innocuous items could be used for purposes other than deodorizing. They never gave me any reason for concern, but it was one area I was adamant about without ever actually having a conversation with them around it.

            I can see why you are concerned and how the opioid issue is also raising red flags. I hope you can get some advice around the best way to approach the issue and that your son will be open to any support he can get. Really wishing you all the best <3

          40. Asp Emp says:

            AV, maybe – if you can – arrange a day out of the house – just you and your son. An all day something that you both would enjoy, feel relaxed doing / seeing. Take a picnic. Anything. Ask him if he’d like to choose somewhere and whether he’d like to help you make the picnic. It’s a day out for mother & son ‘bonding time’. Sometimes it helps to be away from the house – where there is a more ‘neutral’ ground to also give space to talk. Give him the opportunity to ‘open up’. Maybe start by saying something like “you can talk to me about anything, anything you may be struggling with, I was your age once and it is not easy making the transition from a young person to an adult, I’m here if you need my help”. Whatever you decide is the best way to approach it. Good luck x

          41. Leigh says:

            I love this Asp! Support is key.

          42. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you – much appreciated 🙂

          43. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, you worded that so well! I will memorize it! He and I have been trying to figure out something to do, though I’m not sure he’d go for a whole day! That might be a bit too much for him! But I’ve been trying to talk him into going golfing with me, that would at least be several hours. But, he doesn’t know much about golfing, he’s only gone a few times, and he doesn’t want me to instruct, so I think he’s nervous to go with me. I wouldn’t, I love to just have fun! He’d see a different side to me that he’s not seen in that type of setting. And it would get me back into golf in a low pressure situation, win-win! But, so far, no go. But I will give your ideas some thought and see what he thinks about a picnic, maybe tubing or something, once it warms up a bit. Thank you again for the fantastic wording! You think they would know that but maybe it has to be actually stated.

          44. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for your words. The more I read from what you say about you and your son, the more I can see about you as individuals. Ask him directly – whether he would enjoy golfing, it does not matter if he says ‘no’ (and explain that it will not upset you in the least). Sometimes, asking more specific and short questions can guide to what responses / answers are being ‘sought’ from the questions. It is a bit like ‘joining-the-dots’ – something complex would need to be broken down into smaller sections to aid thought processing as well as the social communication – it lessens the ‘over-load’ of information all at once – if you can understand what I mean? Some people need guidance and sometimes reassurance to be able to ‘open up’. x

          45. A Victor says:

            I brought up the golf to him last night, he rejected me initially because he’s not crazy about golf in general but we talked about it and he’s softening up! I’m excited! I had to throw out a cart to sweeten it up, he’ll enjoy driving that. Lol!

          46. Asp Emp says:

            AV, glad he liked the idea of driving the cart. It’s a man thing – a ‘toy’ that they would enjoy. Golf is for some, not all people – I don’t particularly enjoy it because I do not find it as entertaining / intellectual enough for my analytical mind. Maybe it is similar for your son?

          47. A Victor says:

            Haha, I like driving the cart! One of the reasons I enjoy golf is the geometry and physics involved! I love when I put them together and the shot turns out as intended, it is very fulfilling. And I enjoy the physical part as well. I think for him it’s a lack of know-how. I have offered to get him lessons but he isn’t sure if he wants to learn it.

          48. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I just wanted to say that I would be very surprised indeed if your son is a narcissist. And I doubt that he is. I read Truthseeker’s comment to you on this point. She raised some valid observations through comments exchanged between you and others on the concerns you have in relation to the drugs. Like TS said, have confidence in yourself. 🙂

          49. A Victor says:

            I will find TS’s comments and read or reread it. I think WordPress is sending notices again but I’m still finding things late. I am currently in the middle of a very sad yet hopefully victorious YT video TS sent that has had me in tears, it hits so close to home. I hope you are correct, I’m not sure my heart could handle if he turns out to be a narcissist. But, I wonder if he worries about it, I have wondered if that’s his resistance to it, like the idea that HG can ‘label’ people etc. If he’s worried, that’s a good thing, my ex would never have worried, same with TTU.

          50. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Don’t feel guilty. You did the right thing. Drugs are an altogether different ball game. Very difficult to get honesty where drugs are concerned. What you have done is entirely different to what my mum did with me. You have been given just cause, there was no just cause in my situation. My situation was privacy invasion. What your mum did and does is privacy invasion. What you have done is what any mother would do when in this situation. You are protecting your child. So don’t feel guilty for one second.

            He knows you have found the drugs. He knows there is a conversation to be had. He doesn’t want the discomfort of the conversation, so he is avoiding it. Pushing it down the road. He knows you love to spend time with him. He knows the cinema suggestion delays the difficult conversation and might prevent it altogether. He is manipulating but he’s doing it within ‘normal’ parameters given the situation. This is my opinion. I can’t know, but that’s what it sounds like to me.

            Have you ever or are you in a position to take him into a rehab centre to show him young people that have suffered / are suffering with drug addiction? I’m thinking that his view is likely, ‘everyone does it’ ‘ it’s just a bit of this or a bit of that’. You are looking at it from different standpoints. There’s a gap in perception. I think it might be easier to get your point across if this gap was closed. I think it would help for him to see first hand the impact that his drug use might have, if he allows it to continue. Just an idea AV. Any charities etc close by? An alternative voice of reason other than your own, that he likely views as an over reaction.

            I’ll see if I can find anything on YouTube in terms of a personal account. Something that might be relatable. I’m wondering also if Witch might be able to help. I can’t remember exactly what Witch does but she has popped into my head for some reason. Xx

          51. A Victor says:

            TS, I did the right thing but it feels horrible. I don’t like facing this stuff any more than he wants to. I do like your idea of taking him somewhere to see the results though I feel, he would likely disagree, like he can look in the mirror and see that. His sister’s would agree with me, they’ve been asking about him, worried. But, I don’t think he understands how far it can go, how much it can affect a person. I am mostly concerned about him being a narcissist. If it’s “only” drugs, that’s manageable. If it’s a disorder, that’s another whole thing. What makes me sad is that I tried so hard to keep their lives stable both before and after their dad left. My son was 7 when his dad left and the 6 years prior to that were chaotic, living with a narcissist who is also an active addict was the epitome of crazy-making. So, I tried but I don’t know if I succeeded. Time will tell. I think he has empathy, that is one thing that gives me hope.

          52. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I found this. I don’t know if it will be of any use but I like the fact it’s a personal account. See what you think. It might be a way of starting the conversation in a less direct way. Less “I found this, we need to talk.” More, “ I am worried for you, can we watch this together and talk afterwards?”

            https://youtu.be/LzIbrOB_VRg

            I’ll keep looking. Was just worried that time might be in short supply xx

          53. A Victor says:

            TS, this is an amazing video, it hits it right on the head. I was in tears watching it, of course :(, but absolutely a great thing to show him. I was also so touched that you went out looking for it! That means so much! I didn’t even know stuff like that was available and the fact of you taking the time to do that really means a lot to me! Thank you! I will respond to your other comment here also, to cut down on moderation time.

            Yes, direct link from his dad to him with the opioids in the picture. That terrifies me for him. I have thought of how he has always been, without guile or intent to do anything nefarious to people, and he loves his animals, always has. I have not thought about what I would say if he brought it up, more how I would emotionally try to respond, caring and understanding instead of upset or angry. I am not angry, I’m scared, but sometimes that comes out of me as anger, so I need to stay on top of that. It could prove to be an excellent situation to drill down to the logic. I don’t feel ready for that yet for such a big thing, I haven’t done it enough. But it may be what is required. Yes, I will give some thought to what I want to say and how, that is a great idea. Thank you for the support, ideas and encouragement, I really appreciate it.

          54. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I know you are worried about your son and the possibility that he is a narcissist. The drug discovery likely prompts the connection between what your son is doing and what his father did.

            I honestly think these are two separate issues though. One does not prove the other. The things you have mentioned your son doing for you, didn’t suggest manipulations to me in our prior conversations.

            I agree with the others commenting, he likely did want you to find his stash, or, alternatively, he wasn’t concerned about you finding it. Slightly different but in either case it shows that lines of communication are open which is key to moving forward.

            He might actually raise the conversation with you, now that a few days have passed. Think about that too perhaps so you aren’t caught off guard. Having different ideas and ways to talk about this will help you feel more prepared, so you get to say what you want to say and in the way you want to say it.

            Your mind must be buzzing through thinking about it. I know mine would be, it sounds like you are handling it the right way though AV. You know him best. You’re his mum, have confidence in yourself and cross one bridge at a time if you can. Xx

          55. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG,

            Thank you for allowing the link. I’m not getting all notifications for this thread and wasn’t sure if the comment had gone through properly. I appreciate it.

          56. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            I so feel your concerns as a mum and am saddened to hear of your dilemma …. it’s tricky
            Come down on them and you have the potential they will pull back and withdraw
            They certainly don’t won’t lectures
            Extending the empathy and understanding arm, I feel, is all you can do at this delicate juncture, (yet still remaining the parent) IF he opens up, hallelujah! (pity about the dad)
            Drugs were one of the heated reasons with our youngest and his partner around the family table …..they used our oldest son’s partner as a mule to ‘go get some milk’ …..she had no idea. Our son was furious !!! It’s the narc partner who’s the druggie ….. he’s primarily only with our son because of the constant flow of money…. we believe !

            Know that we are all thinking of you and hope your son starts to open up and there’s some shed of light in sight
            You have our wholehearted support AV, you appear to be on the right track
            Sending hugs n deepest best wishes
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          57. A Victor says:

            Hi Bubbles,
            Thank you for your comment, I appreciate your understanding and your suggestions. It is tricky, I tend to lean toward action at the point I’m at now with it but yes, I need to be careful not to alienate in the process. And it always takes me a bit to get to the action point.

            HG put the video “The Ultra Framework” up yesterday, it addresses the possibility of a young person doing stupid stuff as a young person, not necessarily be a narcissist. That was reassuring.

            I am so sad you are also dealing with such things, it is not fun. It is in fact horrible, I’d prefer to stick my head in the sand but I love him too much to do that. Thank you for the thoughts, support, hugs and wishes, they mean a lot. <3

            AV

          58. Leigh says:

            AV, I know how you’re feeling. Its so much easier to pretend its not happening. While you are putting your head in the sand, I’ll crawl back under my rock, lol. I think its our fear of conflict that makes us avoid things.

            He does sound like a typical teenager to me. They so badly want to cut the apron strings but they also can’t let go. I remember as a teenager and a young adult, I made one stupid mistake after another. I mean I made some real whoppers! We all made mistakes as we tried to avigate those years.

            I think the best thing to do is to let him know you love him, want what’s best for him, and you are here if he needs help with anything.

            What about having one of his older siblings talk to him? Sometimes they are more receptive to an older sibling.

          59. A Victor says:

            Haha, Leigh, that’s funny! Avoidance all the way!! That made ne laugh! Yes, it’s the fear of conflict. Or at least the intense dislike of it. It makes me feel out of control. Isn’t that interesting, I think narcissists feel in control when they create conflict. Hmm, is that a basic principle I’m just grasping?

            I think you are right and I love the sibling idea! Thank you!

          60. Leigh says:

            I recently read a comment that Mr. Tudor had made about a year or so ago. I’m going to paraphrase but it was something along the lines that any emotional reaction from people, whether good or bad, validates there existence. All of a sudden a lightbulb went on for me. They don’t care if they cause conflict because its creating an emotional reaction from us, which then validates their existence. For us, I think we avoid the conflict because it invalidates us. I think they create such dissonance and discord that we question everything. So, if we are wrong about this, our feelings must be invalid. So we avoid so we don’t have to feel invalid. At least that’s how I often feel. I’m tired of being the one that’s wrong.

            I don’t think you need to worry about that with your son though. There may be conflict but it won’t be coming from the same place and I think you’ll be able to feel the difference.

          61. A Victor says:

            Wow, that is a great thought. It is invalidating not to be “heard”, which is associated with conflict, because conflict has happened with a narcissist and in their need to win, with their black and white thinking etc, invalidation happens. That makes sense. But, when we’re not interacting with a narcissist, we won’t “be” invalidated, most of the time, even if we’re “feel” invalidated due to prior interactions with a narcissist. Therefore our emotions can remain stable, if we process this with logic. And even if they don’t always remain stable, we can know that usually no one is being hurt through machinations and manipulations. Thank you for this, it is one of the things I’ve been giving thought to lately, trying to learn to not sound defensive in a conversation where I’m feeling emotional. This is helpful.

          62. Leigh says:

            Lately, if I feel like conflict is about to start, I will back off. Its invalidating not to be heard. Thats it in a nutshell. I just feel like if I have to fight with you in order to get my point across, its just not worth it.

          63. A Victor says:

            Yes, that is exactly what happened in my marriage also. And, now it is what I do with TTU. And with her the conflict is every interaction, she cannot not do it. So I don’t interact except very minimally. Being married would be so much more difficult! I don’t know how you do it!

          64. Leigh says:

            AV, I try to minimize the interaction with him as much as I possibly can. Lately, I’ve been working from home more often and he’s ALWAYS around. He only works 3 hours a day. Yet he still complains that he works so hard. He really has no clue. The good thing is he doesn’t seek me out much. He’s just always there, in the background.

            I refuse to interact with him if there’s conflict. He always makes me feel like my point is invalid. I won’t do it anymore. If I pointed out a behavior that I didn’t like, it was my problem. It doesn’t matter that the behavior is wrong, I’m the one who was wrong for saying something about it. I should just ignore it.

            You wrote on another post that you had to be in the car with your mother and there was silence for the whole trip. That’s exactly what I would do. What’s bizarre is he sees nothing wrong with that. Nothing. He’s so delusional that he thinks are relationship is EPIC and WONDERFUL. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking, how does he not see it??? How does he not see that his wife avoids him like the plague? They truly believe that they are fantastic people and they never, ever question it.

          65. A Victor says:

            I find it so weird that they want to be at home. My ex arranged his job, back in the 90’s, so he could work from home. But he made sure he had an easy out to leave anytime he wanted to, I think both were part of his control, we often didn’t know ahead when he was coming or going. But the wanting to be at home is odd to me because mine was home so little. My daughter’s husband has also wished he could work at home, I believe he is a narc, he is so controlling of her. She was like “What in the world! I couldn’t handle that!” Thankfully he is not able to.

            Yes, keeping to minimal interaction is helpful. TTU knows there is something wrong, she hates the silence. But you are correct, my ex didn’t think anything of it either. I think he just didn’t care, he never asked questions about me, over all the years he barely knew me, except what he needed in order to control me. Asshole.

            We didn’t have conflict unless he pressed buttons, he did it very subtly too. I have only begun to realize that many of the fights we had early on were caused by him pushing buttons and me reacting. He probably didn’t see it as pushing my buttons though, because he was entitled to do whatever he wanted and I was not allowed to question it. So it was my problem. Fucking asshole. After a period of time, I quit fighting, it wasn’t worth it any more, I refused to hurt the kids with the fighting.

            Yeah, how do they not see that we avoid them? I don’t think they care, we’re there in the event they want to say something. At least mine didn’t care.

          66. Leigh says:

            I love how you just say Asshole right in the middle of your paragraph. That’s the Geyser in you. You just gotta blurt it out. I’m telling ya, it’s my favorite. The carrier and savior can go suck an egg, lol!

          67. A Victor says:

            Thank you, I suppose it is but would not have connected that! Now I will! Lol about the Savior and Carrier!! I actually have come to appreciate both of those for their good points. Carrier gives me the ability to do things that might be hard without it and Savior is such a big part of who I am that I think were it not there I would be a completely different person. I am coming to embrace the Geyser a bit more, it is taking a bit to get used to though!

          68. Leigh says:

            AV, I’ve been in a very selfish mind frame for the past couple of years. I don’t want to carry or save anyone anymore. I know they are innate in me and I know I will embrace them again one day. Right now, I just want to shut them off.

          69. A Victor says:

            Oh, your emotional empathy has been eroded to that point! I have been there too. And I think I did kind of shut them off, they are just starting to open again, since I’ve been here. But they didn’t shut off towards my kids, really only him and my parents, which is interesting because I didn’t realize any of them were narcs back then. They consume energy, I was out of energy at that point, except for the bare essentials, namely the kids. And it lasted for all those years after he left too because I just had to focus on them, no time for others to speak of. I was very selfish too. I still feel like I am now but at least I understand why now. Thank you for this exchange, these always help me to see a bigger picture of how narcissism affects people and the ripples outward that it produces.

          70. Leigh says:

            Thank you too, AV. Our conversations help me too. Its more than my empathy being eroded. I don’t know why, but I just want to be alone. I need to be alone with my thoughts. I think when I finally leave my husband, I’m going to stay single for a very long time. I’ll just get myself a boy toy if I need to take care of business, lol.

          71. A Victor says:

            Haha! A boy toy! I love it! Yes, I understand the need for being alone with ones thoughts, that has been my goal for most of my life and especially the last several years. But now I am getting worried I’ve waited too long.

          72. Leigh says:

            I think you misunderstood me too. I’ve been working form home but only temporarily because there is construction going on at my office. I started working from home last week. I wasnt home during the whole COVID thing because I’m HR and had to be there. I was saying because I’m home now, I see that he only works 3 hours a day. He leaves at 1015 and back home by 130. He’s pathetic.

          73. A Victor says:

            Oh yes, I knew you had been at the office, that’s how office narc could come in there and see you. And I was thinking your husband worked from home, probably because mine did.

            So you just found out about his short workday?! Wow, that would be a surprise and not a nice one!

          74. Leigh says:

            I knew his day was short. I just didn’t realize it was that short. He’s home when I leave in the morning and already home when I get home. I’m gone about 8.5 hours a day. I work really close to home. I thought he was working like 5 hours a day. I never imagined only 3 hours. Plus he only works 8 months out of the year too. Pitiful.

          75. A Victor says:

            Aw, now I see why it is hard for you to feel you can leave.

          76. Leigh says:

            I’m curious, why do you think that?

            I think it’s because I don’t have a backbone.

            Plus, thinking about all the things that have to be done starts to overwhelm me. I don’t even have a credit card that’s just in my name. Everything is in both of our names.

          77. A Victor says:

            Oh no. Getting separated from my ex financially happened long before he left, after he’d lost about a years worth of income at the casino in about 3 months. And then he forced me to take out a second mortgage on the house to “make up” the difference. I was so angry, I got my name off of everything I could right then, and had backup because he was in “treatment” for gambling. It made it much easier at the end. You are more hooked in with the financial stuff still connected.

            I was just thinking that your emotions might, not necessarily so but might, be making it hard since he works so little. Unless he makes a great deal in that little amount of time. If that’s the case, I would be wrong. But I know the last year my ex was with us, he had lost his job due to his drug addiction being discovered by his company, so I paid for everything from an inheritance I had been left. I had already paid the house and the 2nd mortgage off at that point. But I covered it all for that year because I felt sorry for him and I was hopeful he would do the right thing. What a complete and utter waste. Had I not done that, I would not be in the predicament that I am in now. The month I told him the money was gone, he left. And he has found others ever since to take care of him. That’s all I was thinking, mostly about how my emotions affected my thinking, that if I had it, he was part of my family so I would take care of him also. This may not be at all what you’re thinking, it just struck me in the moment I wrote that comment.

          78. Leigh says:

            Ugh! I don’t even know where to begin here. My husband does not make alot of money. He is a seasonal laborer and only works 8 months out of the year. When he does work, he doesn’t make enough either. He only pays the mortgage and one other large dental bill. I pay for everything else.
            All healthcare coverages, medical bills not covered by insurance (which is high because he always has some issue), all utilities, car insurance, life insurance, food, toiletries and any other expenses. My husband measures success by not having to answer to anyone, not by being able to pay his bills. 27 years ago he had large gambling win that was spread out over 21 years. We used this money to pay the mortgage on the house. I may jump all over the place. It’s just thats there’s so much info. At the time he won he was doing something else but it still owned his own business. He still wasn’t making enough money to survive. We lived in my mother’s house for free and my grandmother bought me a car. Anyway, when he won, it was a good for about 4 years or so. We saved and he still worked. Then we started a family and bought a house. After being in the house for 2 years he refinanced it and took a huge loan to open another business. From the beginning that business made no money. I had two babies at the time. I had to go through our savings just to make ends meet. Something he blames on me. Mind you, I was working at the time too and was contributing to the household. He was not. I should add he was a heavy pot and cigarette smoker. That business failed after 6 years. He started another business, which is what he is currently doing. The gambling win has run out and now he has to pay the mortgage out of his earned money. Well, its about time. He had his sister buy him a truck for the business and his brother gave him money too.

            Long story short, he can’t take care of himself financially. He is pitiful.

          79. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I have been thinking about your comment all day. I am sad for you to be so entwined but also understand that as married people, it is what generally happens. You have quite a history of financial crap, as I did with my ex also. I can only tell you how amazing it is to not have to deal with the constant upheaval of his latest financial scheme or predicament. He made plenty, he preferred me not to work, and he never said no to anything I wanted. But he made such a mess of things, so many secrets, so many financial mishaps, it was like riding a bucking bronco all the time, never knowing when you’d be flung far and wide! Now, though I have much less coming in, I have peace, financial peace. It is amazing. If I want more money, I do something to make that happen. If I want to sock it away for my future, I do. I can chose to live more extravagantly or more economically. And so on, it is all only up to me.

            When that inheritance came to me, I told my attorney to set up my will so that he would receive the smallest amount possible in the event of my death. I explained to her about the gambling, my reason for doing this. When he and I went to her office to sign some papers and he learned of this, he became irate, right in front of her even, he couldn’t even contain it for the facade, or saw no reason to. It was one of only a small handful of times I saw him get so angry. He wanted to get his hands on it, for his nefarious purposes. In the end, it did all go to him, because I didn’t realize what I was dealing with. The fact of being separate financially due to his gambling was a huge help, one that I have been thankful for many times, it made it much easier to make the break.

            My ex appears not to know how to take care of himself financially but he does very well at getting others to do so. His father wrote him out of his will because my ex just kept taking.

            I wish I had more productive things to suggest but I do not. I just hope you can find a way to be happy, whether with him or find how to get untangled and get away.

          80. Leigh says:

            I have to work on trying to separate our finances. I don’t think I can without tipping him off.

          81. A Victor says:

            Last night at dinner with a couple of friends one of them told me a counsellor she has seen because of her divorce from a narcissist told her if she doesn’t play the game, she can’t lose. She then asked me what I would do if she threw a ball at me. I said “Catch it.” She said “You just played.” You are not playing, you are letting the ball drop where it may. Me too. We’re doing okay for where we are, until we are in a situation with zero narcissists.

          82. Leigh says:

            That’s very true, the only way to win is to not play the game. While yes, I’m letting the ball drop, for now. Ideally, the goal is to not be there when they throw the ball. Thats what I’m working on now.

          83. A Victor says:

            That’s what I’m hoping for sometime in not too long. Not certain how it will happen but I am hoping.

          84. Leigh says:

            You’ll be free before you know it!

          85. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            You’re welcome, any time x. I know you are scared and will be thinking yourself crazy. I thought I could do a bit of leg work, see what’s out there. I think the more options you have up your sleeve, the more you can read the situation and find the right fit.

            Scared can come out as anger I know. Voicing that you are scared for him is not a bad thing either. That way he knows that he isn’t just impacting himself, he’s impacting you too and all those who care for and worry for him. Teens are self absorbed. I was self absorbed right through my twenties! I’m seeing that with my two as well. They sometimes need a gentle reminder that it’s not just all about them.

            From everything you say about your son, he sounds like a teen rather than a narcissist. His long term affection for animals is a really good sign. I do think this uncertainty will continue to worry you though until you get a definitive answer through either consultation or through the NDC. Unnecessary worry wears us down. If you know for certain that he is normal or empath this might help you navigate future hurdles. If he is a narcissist then similarly, it would be helpful to know this too so that you can best support him as his mum, whilst taking care of yourself also. It’s something to consider. Only you know what’s right for you AV x.

            I’m glad you went to the movies together, that’s sweet. I laughed at the golf cart incentive! As a mum, I say ‘Whatever works!’

          86. A Victor says:

            TS, I hope you are correct about the teen vs narcissist part. And you are correct about the worry. Well, you’re also correct about getting add much info as I can. Haha, your whole content is great! Thank you for utter and again also for doing that legwork for me, hugely meaningful! 💖

          87. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            You’re welcome. I’ve read some really lovely comments to you and great suggestions from the other empaths here, everyone bringing something to the table trying to find a solution.

            I was thinking about this today when HG put up his next Q&A date. Something we have missed and have requested. Something that has been provided as soon as time allowed.

            Our moods fluctuate. Our ET fluctuates in terms of the battery of feeling that comes with the empath and then the flawed decision making that arises if our ET rises too high. Once we get out of ensnarement, the ET still fluctuates daily. To prevent us going back to the narcissist or being more easily ensnared by a new one, I think it’s so very important to keep our battery of feeling full but on an even keel. That varies empath to empath but I think the blog, and the support it offers is crucial in keeping us all on that even keel when we escape and weaponise.

            Life throws its challenges and when it does it’s good to know there are others like us here to listen and offer support. Sometimes just knowing that makes all the difference. It’s the difference between us backsliding and becoming vulnerable again, or keeping a win on the tally chart for the empaths and by extension for HG.

            The blog is important to us all and HG continues to keep his word. YouTube, work commitments we don’t see, a legacy and a Grand Design, and still an eye kept on the empaths here. Comments quietly moderated at crazy times and probably in crazy places. A very impressive work ethic and one that benefits us all here. Credit where credit is due to the man seated at the white desk.

            It’ll work out AV, by hook or by crook, you’ll find a way Xx

          88. A Victor says:

            Hi TS,
            Yes, plenty of great ideas, I am so grateful! Every single one adds an important piece. He did actually bring it up to me and is willing to do whatever is recommended. I have reached out yet again to the counselor, I find it frustrating that they are too busy it seems to get back to me. But, I am relieved that he brought it up and is motivated to get clear of it, at least at this point.

            Yes, I agree, keeping our moods and as a result our ET on an even keel is very important. Also that the support and listening ear here are extremely helpful toward that. Prior to last October I was unaware of ET or of needing support for it, learning about both and then having this place to do it in has been amazing. I think it has been hugely instrumental in my progress sorting out my entire life. Had this place not been here and I just simply learned of the need to stabilize and GOSO etc I believe it would’ve been a much bigger challenge, possibly not even doable. Especially when life hands out a lemon. It would be easy to just grab anything that seems to offer stability. But, no need since we do have this place, thankfully. Thanks to HG. I wonder if we are the ones he knows about, that he knows of our success or struggle and so how to help the larger crowd also. Maybe he uses our comments to fine tune so he’s more effective. Maybe he still needs (uses) us in some way, only for his purposes of course. It is all about the legacy. When I read “…and still kept an eye on the empaths here.” my first thought was “Aw, he loves us TS.” and I actually had to think that through, only for a split second, but of course, it is not anything like that, it is his purposes. But, I am ever so grateful whatever those purposes are, and even more so as he has become busier and busier. Thank you HG, we are really really grateful to you!

            Thank you TS for your comment and for your encouragement!

          89. Leigh says:

            I’m so glad your son has reached out to you and wants to get help. That’s fantastic news. Its terrible that you can’t get a phone call back from one of the counselors. Maybe you can have your son’s primary care physician recommend a substance abuse counselor. There’s also a substance abuse hotline.

          90. A Victor says:

            I am about to try the hotline. I hadn’t thought of the doctor, he probably could. There is a place near us that I have been calling, I have heard really great things about their program so was wanting to be in contact with them. But I will check with these other ideas also, thank you!!

          91. Leigh says:

            His primary care doctor might be able to get him to see a counselor quicker or maybe he can refer him to a psychiatrist who specializes in substance abuse.

            Its so scary that you want to get your son help and you can’t get a call back. It must be incredibly frustrating.

          92. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            The blog and ‘keeping an eye’. It’s about the win I think. We enter into HG’s sphere. From his perspective he ‘owns’ us indirectly. (Meh. If he says so.) If we get ensnared again it’s a loss. He understands us well enough to know we are susceptible to re ensnarement so the win isn’t secured at the point of escape. The teaching is the teaching but there is an understanding of the fact that the knowledge embeds through shared experiences with other empaths.

            As empaths we are grateful for the fact that we feel better. Word of mouth and recommendations are good for business. Amazon reviews are testament to that. So there’s a business element to the blog.

            People don’t stay stagnant. Personalities shift in line with experiences. We are aware empaths, I suspect most empaths HG encounters are unaware. In this sense there is learning available here that might not be available elsewhere. I like to think that we assist with the ‘more pro social’ side of things. From what I read of the good doctors, the empaths here can buy and sell them most of the time. He might recognise that, he might not.

            I don’t believe HG has affection for us. This isn’t possible. I do believe that he takes his role seriously albeit without taking responsibility. As we assist the creation of the legacy, we can only do that if he provides the means for us to do so. The knowledge, the support, the safety to discuss and explore ideas. The safe place to bring other empaths to. HG learns, he analyses, he benefits. We do the same.

            HG likes to surround himself with empaths full stop. It’s likely no different here in that sense than in his real life. I’ll admit, there are little touches that suggest a degree of something I can’t quite put my finger on. It’s not loyalty exactly, it’s not respect exactly, it feels more like a desire to provide what we need. I do occasionally feel like I am being watched over (not in the daddy’s home sense haha!) in a good way. A keeping safe kind of way. I don’t see anything wrong in feeling that. After all, I’m likely far more use sane, functioning and alive haha!

            Most men would give their right arm to be able to read our conversations! He is more fortunate than he likely realises!

          93. A Victor says:

            TS, yes, all of that makes sense about the business aspect of the blog. HG is a business man, that is certain. And, he seems to understand what leaving the legacy he wishes to leave will entail. What do you mean by the empaths here can “buy and sell them most of the time”? A British term? And HG might or not recognize what? I think psychiatrists in general are not usually super useful, if that’s what you mean, I love reading the interactions between the good drs and HG, absolutely love it! I like to think we help with the pro social thing as well, I would like to learn more about that actually, I know extremely little about it, except that it was to help HG maintain a relationship. I suspect there is more to it though and I also don’t know what it consists of. It sounds interesting.

            No, I am aware that HG has no affection for us, my thought was literally a momentary blip. He is so effective at the cognitive though that I did have to think about it on a conscious level, for a second. I have thought that his adherence to the rules is due to his taking this seriously and that someone, he or the doctors or who knows, hit on a motivator that keeps him engaged, that being his legacy. I find that interesting as it does show a solid understanding of his own mortality and also shows a massive amount of foresight. Most people in their 30-40’s, or many at least, would not be so actively preparing for their eventual demise. Though when considered as a serious loss of control, that might be a successful motivator also. It just seems rather premature. But, I am not one to look so far ahead myself, or if I do it is not a problem as I have people who will be in my life and make sure that if I am unable to do something, I will still be okay. And I am taking steps to make sure they don’t have to do anything more than the barest, I would never want to burden them. They are my legacy and much work went into them also. I just didn’t do it thinking of it as that at the time. The only concern that I have had with HG learning is one that he verbalized somewhere, he agreed in part to go to the good doctors in order to sharpen his skills, hone his craft. Is he doing that with what he learns from us? To his IPPS’s and other victims? Or is it simply to perfect his teaching of us, if he even benefits in this way. I think at the outset of the blog he did, because he asked questions and interacted in a bit of a different way. But maybe now it’s leveled and there isn’t much to learn anymore. Either way, you are correct, we benefit also, and again, much gratitude to him, whatever his reasons.

            Yes, he likes to have empaths around, I have thought of this as well. We are pretty nice 🙂 so it’s understandable. I’d rather be around empaths than narcissists too! I think you hit on that “degree of something” in your earlier comments about why he does it. I also think that since we are tertiary sources, and as such he “owns” us, there is an element of controlling us and the best way is to “be nice” which we often construe as caring. In his mind though, it is only control, no bit of nice to it except as needed for his purposes. But our minds can’t keep that separate all the time, so it “feels” like he actually cares. At least I think this is it for me. I know in my mind he does not care but my “feelings” say he does. It is a good thing that my mind rules my feelings otherwise I would be head over heels. But, this is a good exercise for future potential love interests, keeping the head in control, I think it’s almost a form of desensitizing to the charm and manipulations, like, I don’t care, that doesn’t affect me anymore. But not to say I would rest on my laurels either, that would only spell disaster.

            I also think the “keeping (us) safe” sense that we get is that if we follow his program, we will be safe, and he wants that to happen, for his legacy. So he enables it. You said all that already I guess. But it is interesting that we have had these same thoughts. One other thought about that keeping us safe sense, he is always in control, that in itself gives me such a sense of security that I would believe I was 100% safe unless I knew absolutely better. This is something I have looked for my entire life. It is something that I fall for with men, all narcs so far. It is another thing that I must become impervious to, in a sense, so I don’t fall for it again. But that “control” in every situation is so damn alluring, so comforting, such a safe refuge. And yet, we know it is not real. Our minds are allowing our ET to lead us astray. I also don’t feel anything is wrong with feeling that with HG, with him it’s like a wake up call that it happens, but I do need to be aware of it with any real life potential partners. Haha to “Daddy’s home…” Oh yes, and I do think he protects us on the blog, from people who might abuse us. We see a bit because it’s useful to us for our learning, but I think he draws lines. If not he would end up with a blog full of narcs probably!

            I think most men would chew their right arm off if they had to hear most of this! I mean, men could come here and read and comment, but they rarely do. I think HG is unique in this way and I think it is an outcropping from his desire to know his prey better.

            I will answer your other comment here also, yes it is huge that he talked to me and that he’s willing to get help. I don’t know yet if it was more recreational or if there is a problem, he doesn’t either but is willing to investigate what is going on and take professional advice. Yay! Thank you for your support, ideas and encouragement! You have done for me what I hope to do for him! Thank you!

          94. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Sorry, my brain is fried at the minute. Your son confiding in you and agreeing to get help is huge, massive, enormous! Haha. I’m so pleased for you there. I’m sad that there is an issue to deal with but I am happy that he accepts he needs some support. I wonder if he sees his drug use as just social or, if he feels he needs it. An escape, a way to block out something that is troubling him.

            We all have our ways of escaping. We need to look at what it is we want to escape from. I suppose I’m asking if the drugs are the problem in themselves or are they a symptom of a different problem. Anxiety, stress, social acceptance etc. Teens have it tough I think. I really feel for them.

            A counsellor is a good place to start. An empathic mum is even better. As we know here on the blog, just having someone to listen who wants for us whatever suits us best is a lifeline at times. It helps us work things out for ourselves. It keeps us steady. Xx

          95. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I love this comment. Hearing you work through your thoughts about the various aspects.

            The reference to us buying and selling the good doctors. Yes, it means that in many ways we do naturally what the good doctors have been taught to do and we are better at it. HG might recognise this, he might not. Not everything requires formal training. We do have an advantage though. HG rocks in to the good doctors and is deliberately evasive. He is also highly suspicious. Rightly so. It was another missive from Matrinarc, I’d be evasive too.

            HG is far more open with us because he has control at all times. He moderates the comments. It’s a safe environment for him as well as us. Anonymity works very effectively for us and HG. Thoughts can be explored and shared without any negative impact. If he chooses to explore he can explore and he’ll get honest feedback.

            Assuming the pro social aspect is an objective, I think we can help with that. HG has mentioned the idea without giving details of objectives. It might not be just lengthening or sustaining a relationship. It might be more along the lines of causing less damage to the IPPS during and at the end of a relationship. Difficult to say without further detail. Either one involves an extra step in the thinking. He has the awareness. He knows that certain threats to his control are simply his perception. The extra step would recognise and provide an alternative choice. Don’t react, don’t store to react later, let it pass. He has the intellect and processing speed. I see no valid reason why that step can’t be implemented some of the time.

            The legacy is a form of immortality. Some women are driven to have children for similar reasons. A need not a want. There is an element of legacy in play that is instinctive. HG decided not to have children but his legacy is more calculated as opposed to instinctive. I agree with your burden comment. I would drive off a cliff before becoming a burden to my kids.

            We are tertiary sources. We are also instrumental to the creation of the legacy. Logically this puts us in a prolonged golden period. The narcissist buys in to the golden period, he has to to a degree. It would never be convincing otherwise. Less so with Greaters but it’s still there and it was very evident with SM. HG is therefore inclined to treat us well. There’s no strong requirement for manipulation either. HG has to win. There is likely something quite entertaining to be gained from taking someone he perceives as weak, then making them strong. You need to keep them strong though so a lot of what is done is down to that in my view. There is the occasional above and beyond though. Wuthering Heights. Audio books have been requested by readers. We love Narc Tales. We tell him we find his voice soothing, calming. We listen before bed. Out comes Wuthering Heights. Free. That could have been a Knowledge Vault item. It isn’t. It’s done because we genuinely find these things helpful to our recovery but it is still above and beyond in my view.

            Keeping safe. Any area governed by HG will be safe. A bit of winning again probably. If we are sailing too close to a narcissist, he will stop it. Logical. We have an addiction and we don’t always spot narcissists. Don’t feel you need to look over your shoulder on the blog. If we are interacting with a narcissist and taking damage, the narc will be out of here so fast their head will spin! We do need to learn though. In my mind it’s safer for us to practice what we learn here than to test it on our own. Better to make mistakes here than in real life.

            I do agree that HG sounded different in the early days of the blog. I do think he had a sharper learning curve at the start than now. However, our self awareness now is greater than at the start. So there is still much to observe. You can always make someone stronger. That goes for both Ultra and empath. Plenty to keep HG busy yet. I think the comment about the good doctors making him more effective will refer to other aspects than his personal relationships. The Grand Design being one. If learning from us is to be used against the IPPS, I estimate the damage there has already been done. He has enough up his sleeve to do that effectively already and he states clearly for the record that he is a narcissist. We know what that means. Pro social offsets this a little in my own mind.

            I have come to realise that it is almost impossible for an empath not to project her own empathic responses onto HG. I am clear about certain absent emotions. I am less clear on others. He does appear to see himself as protector in some form. He does demonstrate pride in relation to ‘keeping people safe in their bed at night.’ He does occasionally and in extremely narrow range demonstrate loyalty. This comes through in KHG. It is extremely difficult for someone with high empathy as we have, to completely accept the absence of it in someone else. I recognise this and still can’t correct it. I can offset it with logical thinking but for me there will likely always be a rose coloured tint when looking at HG. That’s acceptable. He is behind my iPad screen! In real life it’s something I need to keep in mind. I suspect I’m not alone there.

            Xx

          96. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I’ll keep this bit separate. Your last paragraph made me cry. The wording really got to me. I’m just glad we were able to help you sort through it. Your words really mean a lot to me. Thank you. Xx

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest A Victor n WiserNow,
          I’ve always tried to avoid conflict, however ‘at times’ I will stand my ground and fight to the death if I know I’m right ! 🤺🛡but what’s the point in winning the battle only to lose the war, as they say ?
          Generally I will terminate the conversation if it’s going round in circles and try to move on swiftly
          Being an empath, I tend to wound easily and sometimes I take awhile to heal ……that’s when I just want ‘me’ time, time to breathe, collect my thoughts and composure
          Our greater friend tries to push my buttons, but I refuse to battle with him. the trick is not to show your vulnerabilities to anyone ….. always keep them guessing 😉
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. WiserNow says:

            Hi Bubbles,

            Thank you for your message. I agree that choosing your ‘battles’ is important. Sometimes, it’s not worth the time and drama if the conversation is going round and round and there’s no resolution.

            As I’ve learned in this thread, there will *always* be a variety of ‘opinions’ about a particular subject or issue that comes up. Everyone has a valid point to make and also, everyone has an opinion that is not entirely ‘true’.

            Since every individual is unique with their own unique experiences and history, each individual will have their own ‘opinion’ and their opinion will be valid in relation to ‘them’ and their views.

            I think it’s the willingness or openness to see and understand someone else’s opinion without feeling that you need to give up yours that stands out to me.

            As for showing your vulnerabilities, the thing is that being an empath makes it possible to see or feel someone’s vulnerabilities anyway. I can see through a person’s facade or even the words they say sometimes. That doesn’t make me think they are weak or wrong or vulnerable or ‘exploitable’. It just means that I ‘see’ them.

            The other side of that ’empath’ coin is that I find it very difficult to walk away from a ‘problem’ if I feel that I can do something to alleviate or help reduce it.

          2. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, yes, the war is what I try to focus on rather than the battle. Thank you for your comments, I really relate to them a lot! It surprises me how much really since we all (me) think we (I) are so unique! Haha! Glad to know some things are shared. 🙂

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest WiserNow n A Victor,
            Thank you lovelies
            I agree with you WiserNow, well said
            This is a wonderful venue where we can debate……. good, bad or indifferent
            I’m always learning something new with every discussion and comment
            The foremost no 1 rule for each of us …..’always be true to yourself’
            This is what makes everyone here so special
            What’s life without a bit of spice? …… just not with a narc 🌶🔥haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. Melmel says:

          AV I hope I am adding this comment into the correct spot…

          Hugs and prayers for you today as you deal with this conflict with your son! I can’t imagine how difficult this must be for you and I dread the day when I have to face something similar with my own kids who are both very small.

          Xoxoxoxo

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you Melmel,
            I hope you never have to deal with anything like this, that would be the best outcome. I didn’t actually deal with it yet, he came and talked to me as if nothing has happened, so I didn’t bring it up. I’m pretty sure he had to have noticed his stuff was missing but, I don’t know, didn’t bring it up. It was strange. Thank you for your comment, I do appreciate it very much.

        4. Fiddleress says:

          Hello AV,
          I reply here for lack of a reply button far below, but I have been reading your messages and the lovely messages from others who have replied to you.

          About your son. I am so sorry to hear what he, and of course you too, are going through at the moment. I can’t begin to imagine, and I really feel for you.
          I only have two children, extremely different from each other, but as much for the good as for the bad, I have come to the conclusion that it was not thanks to me, or my fault (well, truth be told, HG helped me tremendously for the latter). Do not feel guilty, I am absolutely sure you did all you could, and still do. Guilt is counter productive, and we are not all powerful as parents, one way or the other.

          What strikes me in your case (and it reminds me of myself when I was raising my children) is that you seem very lonely in this fight. That is the worst thing that can happen. Do you have anyone, friends for instance, or do you know good professionals, that could help you, including in speaking with your son? I know it is exhausting, but if you can find help, that would be such a weight off your shoulders.

          Also, if this can help: I did a course a few years ago about troubled teens; it was like a series of lectures by professionals, many of them psychiatrists and social workers. They all said that the teens who act up when teens and young adults generally grow out of it, and actually fare *better* in the long run than those young people who’ve gone through real hardships but bottled it all up – the latter tend to struggle more throughout their lives. And that’s usually because they didn’t get any help, since they weren’t causing any trouble. So do keep hope, and do try to get help – for him, and maybe also for yourself in this struggle with him.

          A film comes to mind about the topic: My Beautiful Boy, with Steve Carrell and Timothée Chalamet. The end gives hope. I loved that film; it is after a true story. Careful, it is heart-wrenching, but the end does give hope.

          Hugs to you AV.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Fiddleress,
            I’m glad to have found this comment from you again! I didn’t have time to reply the first time I saw it.

            It is hard not to feel guilt even as I know it is counterproductive. So I try to process it as it hits me, going to the evidence. I am not perfect but I am not horrible either and he is his own person etc etc etc. It helps though nothing can stop the wondering if I could’ve done something different. Except myself, I try not to dwell on that, I can’t change the past. But it is a choice to not dwell and I am not always as successful as I should be. Thank you for that encouragement.

            I don’t feel lonely in this, I have people in real life I can talk to, I’m just not ready to yet. Once I have more information I will know which of them, if any, need to be made aware. It’s my process, information gathering is typically first. I did think the blog would be a potential good source for information because there is less emotion since we don’t know each other and there is a rather amazing assortment of thought processes and experiences here. I take it all in, analyze and decide my course I’d action. Absolutely helpful and wonderful. Then comes the hard part, taking action. But I will have the support I need before I go there in part because of what I’ve learned from you all, I will know who I need. Thank you for your sensitive observation, my children have worried about my aloneness in the past also. I think not many pick up on it or if so they don’t tell me. I am a very independent person and I feel that as such people often don’t realize I may like an honest “How are you?” now and then. But I am okay.

            I am so encouraged by your paragraph about troubled teens! Thank you so much for sharing that!

            You are the third or fourth person to mention that movie to me in the last month or so. I have hesitated as I don’t do well with heart wrenching stuff, it can affect me for far too long but your comment about the ending is encouraging. The irony is that my son was the first one to mention it to me, he also recommended it, as did the others.

            Thank you for the comment and the hugs, both are much appreciated.

    4. Truthseeker6157 says:

      BC30,

      That cracked me up. Agree. You might need yourself a bigger book!

  13. MP says:

    Just to add my two cents as well. I can see both perspectives and I’m not taking any sides.

    It sounds good to say the choice is ours. But a lot of time it is not the case. Narcissists operate through deception. It isn’t like they let us know beforehand what they are going to do to us. Everyone can get ensnared or victimized by narcissists. But they have more success with really optimizing that ensnarement with empaths. And that’s what empaths need to work on. When a woman gets raped, we don’t excuse the behavior of the rapist and say the woman should have been more careful. Drug dealers are held accountable with law enforcement but at the same time the drug addict has a personal responsibility for his/her own health to treat the addiction problem. Narcissists deserves the blame for their actions and at the same time their victims have the personal responsibility to minimize the likelihood of being victimized again. It is empowering to be able to know that there is something that we can control and that is controlling our own boundaries and actions so that we are not as susceptible as we used to be. But it is also empowering to acknowledge to ourselves that the narcissists are the perpetrators and we didn’t deserve to be treated that way.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      MP
      The reference to choice was in how we choose to deal with and respond to the narcissists in our life once we know – not that we choose to be ensnared. You provided an excellent example in another of your comments regarding your husband’s handling of his ex:

      “But after the divorce he totally did what HG teaches here about not engaging and minimal contact (because they have kids together so NC was not possible). His responses to her were almost cut and dried because he said if it isn’t there’s going to be room for her to cause conflicts so it’s best for him to keep his communications with her short and to the point. He a avoided her too and didn’t talk to her in their kids’ events in school where they both went even though she initiated greeting him in front of people he didn’t even greet her back even with other people looking at them and judging him for being impolite to her. He didn’t even know that he was dealing with a narcissist and yet it was as if he was excellently following HG’s advice”.

      He didn’t give her any more than was required and didn’t concern himself that others might judge him for his choice in the handling of it. He did what he thought was best for him, and he made that choice without even knowing he was doing what HG teaches. We have the benefit here of HG’s material and can do the same if we choose to heed it. That is what I meant by our choice.

  14. NarcAngel says:

    WN

    Perhaps that depends on one’s definition of blame. I don’t see it as all or nothing for the empath in either accepting blame or becoming soulless, heartless, hateful, etc. Nor do I see the narcissist as some magical being able to render us completely incapable. A title I’m sure they would readily accept, but I am not willing to give them that power. The dynamic exists. We are drawn to one another and I believe we can learn (as we are here) about both them and ourselves to understand how we can best coexist because they are not going away. We will continue to encounter them in all facets of our lives. I don’t see it as assigning blame to take an honest accounting in ourselves to see how we play into their manipulations (be it familial or through intimate relationships for example) to see what part we play in that dynamic and to best avoid it in future or at least lessen it’s effect. For some that may mean learning not to give up so much of themselves early on in their relationships (friends, lovers, or even co-workers). It’s not the empaths “fault” that they are open, but if repeatedly opening themselves up and having it used against them is not a desired outcome, then it’s probably in the Target’s best interest to change rather than expect a DISORDERED and unwilling (and in most cases unknowing) manipulator to change. It’s all well and fine to say it’s all the narcissist’s fault and to blame them, but they don’t care or see any reason to change because the disorder (not choice) of Narcissism allows them to see themselves as victims and assign fault and blame just as we do. No one is going to blame someone for getting hit by a car for example, but if they keep ignoring the signals and enter into the roadway repeatedly while doing so, it begs a little internal investigation as to the reasons that this keeps happening. It is generally recognized and accepted by society that if someone is an addict, that they must accept it and seek help in order to change the outcome, because appealing to, or railing at the drug dealers of the word to grow a conscience and to stop selling to addicts for the greater good of the world has not been found to be successful to date. Assigning blame to either side changes nothing. Waiting for someone else to change is pointless. Taking action yourself is the sure bet.

    The information is all here from the narcissist point of view. We can learn from it and adapt, or continue to reject it as fact, see it as a conscious choice on their part, assign blame, and hope for them to change.

    The choice is ours.

    1. A Victor says:

      NA, I was thinking the same thing, I believe in personal responsibility very much. And though it annoys me that I have to do all the adjusting in this case, the fact that I am able to is a huge advantage in life. And now, knowing about narcissism, I want the advantages for myself that come with putting in the work to make the changes. So, it is worth it. I see that I have been victimized, that narcissists are predators and we are their victims, but also, we don’t have to allow this once we understand what is going on. For people who have yet to realize something is wrong, they need to have the information available when they are ready, HG is making that happen more all the time. This is how I go from victim to victor, my thought process around it. And then, helping others as I am able. I enjoyed reading your comment, it was encouraging.

      1. Contagious says:

        I am reading this thread. It dawned on me that the metoo# had tremendous power on firing narcs, shaming them and putting them in prison or worse. It’s ok to acknowledge you won’t put up with narc, etc… abuse and empowering. Not sure the title “ victim” applies when a stand against abusive behavior is taken. I also think it’s ok to not politicize your experience snd move on. A good life is the best revenge. And if you can forgive…all the better!

        1. WiserNow says:

          Hi Contagious,

          Your points about the #metoo movement are very relevant when it comes to the ‘social’ or collective aspects of narcissism. I agree that the title of ‘victim’ doesn’t apply when a person stands against abusive behaviour. Words can be used to smear and mock.

          For decades, the “Hollywood casting couch” system was a well-known, normalised ‘phenomenon’. Everyone in the entertainment industry and in media knew that it happened and society in general was willing to turn a blind eye. I have a book about Marilyn Monroe and there are many photos of her as a 20-something-yr-old wearing a bikini being photographed with middle-aged men (or older) wearing 3-pce suits leering at her or with their arm around her etc.

          There were directors like Roman Polanski and Woody Allen who were accused and charged with crimes, and the general public response was, “…but they are great artists. Their work is revolutionary or genius or unique or poignant… or whatever”. The fact that they preyed on minors, cheated and lied to their spouse, molested their own child etc, was largely condoned. By condoning it, the abuse was ignored or normalised.

          While it was ignored or ‘normalised’, the young women who were raped or molested or coerced or emotionally manipulated were called ‘victims’ or blamed for ‘asking for it’ or treated like their confessions were self-serving etc.

          Since Harvey Weinstein’s case and the #metoo movement, the same scenario of the “Hollywood casting couch” has turned around. It’s more likely that predatory men in the entertainment industry are now seen as rapists and perverts, sociopaths and criminals. Meanwhile the women are ’empowered’ and ‘survivors’.

          I’m not saying that *all* directors are perverts and *all* young women are innocent ‘survivors’. I think there was more than one outspoken #metoo ‘survivor’ who was a narcissist (cough Rose McGowan cough Gwyneth Paltrow cough cough).

          The point is that it’s a social or collective generalised ‘stereotyping’. I think generally, people would rather believe in quick and easy ‘labels’ and stereotypes than think something through and consider it within a context and from more angles.

        2. A Victor says:

          Hello Contagious, I suppose that is correct, about the metoo# movement. I have not given it much consideration really as I didn’t know about narcissism when that began. I also believe we are not necessarily victims every moment, though until I learned about narcissism, I was a potential victim on an ongoing basis, both with the narcs in my life and new ones. Now, not at all. Now I am and will be victorious, even if there are occasional set-backs. Yes, a good life is the best revenge, even if it’s not intended as revenge. I will forgive, once the full scope of the situation is known. That is an ongoing process, with occasional set-backs as well, but a general trend forward. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I don’t believe we have spoken before, but I appreciate you sharing them!

    2. NarcAngel says:

      To add to my previous comment:

      * Disordered according to the majority perspective.

    3. WiserNow says:

      NarcAngel,

      My first gut reaction to your comment was to say a blunt, yet efficient, “Fuck off NarcAngel, go back and read my message.”

      In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve been here on narcsite for almost five years now and I HAVE LEARNED, I HAVE UNDERSTOOD, I HAVE RESEARCHED AND I KNOW THE SIGNS.

      The problem is that all this learning does not protect me from narcissists when I am daily -constantly- subjected to some kind of narcissistic manipulation – when I’m working, when I’m shopping, when I’m on online, when I’m at home in my garden, whenever. God forbid I want to have a reciprocal, trusting relationship. And no, I’m not attracted to them. I want to avoid them. The simple fact is that NARCISSISTS ARE EVERYWHERE.

      To use your analogy, an empath can’t even ENTER THE ROADWAY without being hit. If I know and respect the road rules, know the signs, learn how to avert the dangers, have a watertight no contact regime, what will stop a determined narcissist from running right into me on the road anyway?

      What will stop a narcissist government leader from enacting an inequitable law that affects me? What will stop a narcissist policeman/lawyer/judge from manipulating ‘justice’ in a court case that affects me? What will stop a narcissist media magnate publishing propaganda in a news article I am reading? What will stop a narcissist service provider treating customers like ‘appliances’? …and I could go on.

      Do I blame narcissists? Yes, 1,000%.

      1. WiserNow says:

        NarcAngel,
        I’m sorry for swearing. I shouldn’t have used the F-word, it was very rude. I apologise.

        It was due to the frustration of living daily on constant guard, and then told that this ‘frustration’ is unwarranted and indulgent, because, you know, narcissists can’t help themselves, poor unknowing souls that they are 🙄

        Anyway, I respect your comment and what you have said.

      2. A Victor says:

        WiserNow, this is heartbreaking to read. For you and also all of the rest of us. But I think you are correct, they are everywhere and they are to blame. I stay in my “tower” very often as a result, even though it doesn’t isolate from the reach of those in power. At least here I can protect from the media, people in public etc. I have a cadre that is showing how it manifests in me recently, I want to believe that everyone has some good in them, and I almost cannot believe there are people who actually prey on others. Yet this must become understood and accepted and even then, we are not safe. So heartbreaking. Thank you for sharing this, it paints a bigger picture of which we must be aware.

    4. Truthseeker6157 says:

      NA,

      I fully agree. I don’t dispute the fact that the narcissist’s methods are unacceptable. However, it was only when I examined my input into my own ensnarement that I was able to fully understand how he was able to use these methods to full effect. So I can blame him wholeheartedly for wasting my time. Or, I can examine characteristics within myself at that time (and timing had a lot to do with it too I think) that facilitated my ensnarement.

      In terms of moving forward, yes there are red flags to look out for. Yes we were unaware of these before landing here. We also need to look at ourselves though and our own specific vulnerabilities that make us more prone to ensnarement. Some we will be able to change, some perhaps not and I’m not a believer in changing myself into someone I’m not either.

      In my case I can honestly say certain vulnerabilities and characteristics were capitalised on. Some remain as part of me,( the addiction for example) some I recognise and have amended, some I continue to come to terms with. The point is though my ensnarement was not all down to him. I played my part in it too. I understand why that was the case and I am very well aware in which social interactions I am most at risk. So, I stay out of them, or, I dip in and dip out. That’s a a conscious decision. It’s a decision that I could not have made without examining my part in things and taking some, not all, of the responsibility for what happened.

      Narcissists are powered by us. HG is very clear on it. “Empaths are ensnared because they are the best providers of the Prime Aims.” We provide. As we provide, then it follows that we also have the option not to provide. That option arrives through recognising and accepting our part in the dynamic.

      1. WiserNow says:

        TS6157 and NarcAngel,

        As I mentioned to NarcAngel, I think you should both go back to my comment (to A Victor and Asp Emp) and re-read it.

        Thanks for repeating what HG has instilled in us which I am very aware of. After several years reading and commenting on this blog though, I don’t think I need either of you reinforcing it to me yet again.

        Perhaps for a refreshing change, NarcAngel or someone else could endorse one of my helpful/constructive/compassionate comments to someone? A comment meant to assist in validating a victim or suggesting a way to re-think their situation . . . rather than flying in from seemingly nowhere to tell me how wrong I am . . . ?

        The point of my earlier comment was to say that empaths (or ‘victims’) have valid reasons for their ‘ensnarement’ – as valid as the narcissist’s reasons for ensnaring in the first place. It doesn’t particularly help victims to be questioned, judged or blamed (e.g. ‘but how couldn’t you see what was happening after so many years?’ etc etc).

        In my comment, I pointed out that the victim does not have to (even though they do) feel sad, embarrassed, self-blaming etc for what happened to them. My point was to say that, very often, the victim is blamed while the narcissist (or perpetrator) “needs to be understood”. This skewed way of looking at the ‘dynamic’ is unfair and also invalidating to victims, as though they haven’t been invalidated enough.

        This doesn’t mean that I don’t understand the reasons why we are learning about our own part in the dynamic here on the blog. It doesn’t mean that I ‘expect’ narcissists to change.

        Still, thank you to both of you for your comments.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hi Wisernow,

          I don’t believe you are wrong at all. I agree that the narcissist behaves in a way that is unacceptable. I don’t believe that ensnarement is the fault of the victim. I didn’t interpret NA’s comment in that way either. She isn’t condoning what narcissists do. She isn’t defending them.

          I endorsed her comment because I agree with her view. I don’t see myself as a victim, I don’t see myself as powerless. I know for a fact that my ensnarement was partly my doing. I built him up into something he wasn’t. I interpreted his behaviours through my own lense and that’s not my fault. However, I am guilty of feeding what I wanted, what I needed and what I hoped he was into that illusion. That came from me. My doing. Quite honestly, they aren’t that good. They rely on us to complete the picture. He was nothing without me.

          By analysing my part in it, why I did it, my mindset, timing, events at that time as he entered the scene, I better understand what my tendencies are. I understand how he caught me. Some of those circumstances are now irrelevant, they were time bound. Others less so. If I recognise them, I further protect myself going forward. I believe (and will let NA answer for herself here) that this was more the point NA was trying to make. It resonated with me, because it is only very recently that this awakening occurred. The input from HG as regards addiction and ET started me on the right path. I was still desperately sad though. Looking at my role in it, led to me getting out of it. I worked that out. That was me. I don’t give credit to HG for that. In fact, I broke the rules to cut the final bonds with the narc, and HG certainly didn’t advise that.
          My addiction, I sorted it, my way.

          What HG teaches is exactly right but we have to take responsibility for our own addiction too. I know you read the material, I know you understand it. I haven’t questioned that.

          I understand your frustration, narcs have infiltrated all parts of society like the Red Weed. The situation is as it is. We have to fight the battles we can win for now as aggravating as that is. They have the advantage whilst they and their behaviours are unseen by the majority and whilst society continues to attach incorrect labels to them. The only way to beat them is to force them out into the daylight for all to see. The only way to beat them is to share the knowledge we have gained here across as many platforms as we can think of and consistently. Not once a week when we remember. Every day. When people start to see them then the rules of engagement will change. Until that point though what NA said made sense to me.

          I didn’t see her comment as a criticism of yours. I saw it as a view that offered a way for empaths to feel less frustrated whilst at the same time protecting themselves and taking back control. I agree with you, we have all fallen prey to narcissists here in some form or another. It was certainly not our fault. As HG said though, “Our numbers are growing…What are you going to do about it?”

          I think your comment to NA was harsh. I don’t see what she said that was so bad. She wasn’t attacking. She was offering her view, the same way as I offered mine.

          I hope this makes things clearer Wiser Now because I value your opinions in here and I think you offer a lot of support.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            You understood correctly.

            Everyone
            I am not laying blame, nor do I believe it is the empath’s fault that they were ensnared. It is quite clear to me that the abuse perpetrated against me was external and not my fault, so I hold that view of other Targets as well. I don’t consider introspection as blame. I consider it as looking honestly within to identify if there is something one can determine to be a repeating factor or behaviour within their own control to protect themselves and to change the outcome moving forward. If someone reads that as blame it is their interpretation and does not make it my intention. That is why I stated that it might depend on one’s definition of blame.

            I do not condone what narcissists do. Understanding what they do and why is galaxies away from condoning. I am not defending them by accepting the reality of their existence and how they negatively affect empaths. It’s fact that they abuse. Confusing my understanding the reality of that with condoning their abuse is insulting and frankly a sign of impaired judgement due to extreme emotional thinking. Having an UNDERSTANDING of why they do what they do helps us to form a defence against them. It does not beg us to accept or condone their actions at all. I understand the feeling that it’s unfair that we have to do the adapting. Actually we don’t. We have every right to continue wearing the victim hoodie and pointing fingers at the narcissist while waiting for introspection and change on their part, or we can decide what we are going to do about it. The intention of the message was of empowerment not blame.

            We are all aware that the narcissist is the abuser and the target is not at fault or to blame. Hell – the narcissist here tells you that himself. To simply keep railing at that fact though produces no change. That was the point that was spectacularly misinterpreted.

            WN
            Your mother was an abuser.
            It was not your fault.
            You were/are not to blame.

          2. WiserNow says:

            Thanks TS6157, however, you’re telling me things I already know.

            If you “understand my frustration”, then why the need to silence my expression of it? Especially when my comments weren’t directed to and didn’t involve either you or NarcAngel? It’s what NarcAngel has made into a habit with me. Frankly, it makes me think it’s either a case of unnecessary defensiveness of HG or pointed intolerance towards some commenters and not others. We are all here commenting and that means there is a variety of ‘opinions’.

            On second thoughts, there’s no need to reply to my question. Perhaps instead, in future, take *all* of a reader’s comments into account before deciding to respond to the ones you object to.

          3. MP says:

            Hello NA,

            I’m just wondering who you are referring to with this statement “ Actually we don’t. We have every right to continue wearing the victim hoodie and pointing fingers at the narcissist while waiting for introspection and change on their part, or we can decide what we are going to do about it.”? I didn’t notice anyone wearing the victim hood. If you were not referring to anyone then was that statement necessary? I just think that it has the potential to send mix messages and that probably contributes to why you get misunderstood and maybe the misunderstanding is not always 100% the other person’s fault. Just an observation.

          4. WiserNow says:

            Thank you for this comment MP.

            I don’t see myself as a ‘victim’ and I don’t like to see other ‘victims’ here blame themselves either. That was the whole point of my initial comment – to say that an ‘ensnarement’ is not something to be ’embarrassed’ about etc.

            The whole “victims need to adapt” argument is starting to get a bit stale to me. Victims do adapt – they have to in order to simply survive. Victims do learn and change. Victims do understand, research, speak out, change and are motivated to make things better. They are not happy to remain ‘victimised’.

            The more I learn about this subject, the more I see that this ‘blame-shifting’ by narcissists to demand that it is their ‘targets’ that need to change, is just another pathological ‘blindness’ and emotional laziness on the part of people who are quite happy to live like parasites – parasites who are never sated.

            I don’t buy that they ‘can’t change’. I can see that it’s harder for them to change without empathy and a conscience. But I don’t buy that they don’t have the cognitive ability to recognise the harm that their actions create. I think they are quite happy to stay ‘unaccountable’ because it’s a pattern and a habit that’s easier to maintain while blaming and mocking everyone else. Yes, blaming and mocking – I don’t see any need to change the real meaning of those words.

            If there were suddenly no ‘victims’, narcissists would implode like empty bags of hot air that suddenly have no more hot air inside them. They are like machines that can’t function without the ‘conscience’ of someone else.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You do not understand narcissism by maintaining that the narcissist cannot change.

            ” But I don’t buy that they don’t have the cognitive ability to recognise the harm that their actions create” – I have never stated that. I have explained that Mid Range, Greater and the Ultra know that what they do causes harm in others HOWEVER the Mid-Range Narcissists always have a reason, excuse etc because from their perspective (and they cannot see any other) it is not their fault, it is yours. The Greater and the Ultra find it entertaining to inflict harm on others because it is deemed as necessary in order to achieve what is required, deserved or undeserved, it matters not.

            There will always be victims.

          6. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            Then what is the point of asking ‘victims’ (who aren’t designed to ‘take control’) the question:

            “Our numbers are growing. What are *you* going to do about it?”

            From everything I’ve seen here, the answer seems to be “re-victimise the victims”.

            It’s not ‘support the victims’ or ‘better understand the victims’ or ‘reinforce the importance of empathic traits’ or ‘socialise narcissists to better understand the perspectives of others” or “educate narcissists to understand that their actions also harm themselves”.

            The answer seems to be ‘understand narcissists and let them do as they please, because it’s the victims that need to adapt’. If they are everywhere and their numbers are growing, no contact is logically impossible.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I thought you would be able to work that out.

            It is to take control of yourselves and there are a myriad of ways you do this to secure a far better outcome for genuine empathic victims, which I have repeatedly explained through my work and therefore there is no need for me to repeat myself.

            Nowhere have I stated ‘understand narcissists and let them do as they please, because it’s the victims that need to adapt’ and to suggest that is the case shows a complete disregard for what I have explained.

            To state “From everything I’ve seen here, the answer seems to be “re-victimise the victims” is simply not representative at all of what has been explained by my work.

          8. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            I can tell you right now that this thread, the smearing involved and the false and unrepresentative way I’m being ‘labelled’ is very victimising.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            WiserNow, I can understand that you are upset at present. I am not taking sides here. I have never seen HG ‘victimise’ anyone on his blog. He is applying his Logical Thinking whereas you may be experiencing a high level of Emotional Thinking (at present). Have a think about HG’s responses to you. Hang in there, you will be ok. Just breathe & remember – we are all here for the same goals x

          10. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thanks for your supposed ‘concern’, but frankly, I find it patronising and again, ‘blaming’ of me and my views and opinions.

            I’m not ‘upset’ and I know I will be ok. I have ‘breathed’ through each and every response I have seen on this thread.

            I’m not suffering from ’emotional thinking’ either. I know exactly what I said and why in the first comment that started all of this.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            WN, I will await your apology, in due course.

          12. WiserNow says:

            You’ll be waiting for a while Asp Emp.

          13. WiserNow says:

            ..to add to my previous comment, I think I am ‘working it out’.

            You are perfectly free to ‘explain’ all day every day how empathic traits from a narcissist’s ‘perspective’ are ‘sins’, and ‘corrupted emotional thinking’, they are ‘perspectives that need to adapt and change’, they are ‘errors’ and a mantle of ‘victimhood’ etc etc etc.

            But one comment that describes narcissistic traits from an empath’s ‘perspective’ for exactly what they are – lying, empty, heartless and hypocritical – is too much to cope with for your ‘ultra’ sensibilities.

            Pardon me for not being a fawning sycophant.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Nothing to do with sensibilities at all. I was correcting you and providing accuracy. Part of that accuracy is allowing people to understand the narcissistic perspective.

            There is no such thing as corrupted emotional thinking. Emotional thinking corrupts traits and causes flawed logic.

            The application of the principles I explain have helped and continue to help many, many people gain understanding and freedom. Acknowledgement and gratitude for that does not amount to anybody being a fawning sycophant. Nor does somebody disagreeing with you make them a fawning sycophant. As I explained to you in an earlier response (which at the time of writing this I have not seen you respond to) there is no proprietary interest in a conversation in this forum, despite your attempts to impose that. Where you make an observation you can expect people to both agree and disagree and they are perfectly entitled to do so.

          15. MP says:

            Hello WN,

            Your points are very thoughtful and empathic. I’m thankful that NA clarified she was not referring to you or to anyone here regarding wearing the victim hoodie because I didn’t see you or anyone play the victim. I can see that she is coming from a place of frustration from the people she cares about in her life and it was something that has been bothering her and that was where her comments or opinions came from. And I also see your frustration coming from another side which is also a frustration I share. And for me it’s the little comments left in different and separate instances by some commenters including myself that was not well thought of. I hated when I saw a comment a long time ago that said “narcissism is brilliant” although I didn’t speak against it at that time and may have even thumbs upped the comment because it was made by someone who was nice to me at that time.

            Before I learned about narcissism I was feeling down and told my husband why people treat me that way but not him. He knows and even criticized how my former MR frenemy treated me and he even pointed some of it out to me and he always acknowledged and never gaslit me on how terrible his daughters are to me. So I was asking him what is wrong with me. Why did my own mom, half sister, closest friend and his daughters cannot like or love me or treat me like crap. He said that there is nothing wrong with me, it’s them. He said that I did more effort than he could expect anyone to make his daughters like me and they were still always rude to me. And he said my friend treated her husband like sh*t and tried to steal someone else’s husband while declaring that she’s a Christian so he said what do I expect from a person like that? He said my sister was nuts and thought that her life was a soap opera. And lastly my mom was really crazy. His answer actually frustrated me because I felt it wasn’t helpful to me because I told him I want to know what is wrong with me so that I can DO SOMETHING TO FIX IT. He said the reason he doesn’t get treated that way is because he chooses the people he lets in. He said he also got treated like crap by his dad, his brother and his wife, his first wife, the guy that was his investment partner that left him with all kinds of debt, etc. And all that he did was stay away from them but he also got treated like crap by people. He just doesn’t keep them around. And so I think both your perspectives are correct and I know that you never advocate for just wallowing on it and that is why you came here in the first place and you have been offering helpful advice to commenters for years here because you want to do something proactive not just for you but also for others.

            I totally get why you reacted that way. When you have been doing serious work on something for years and to be taught about something you already know can totally feel that all of the years you spent on something you know very well ha been minimized. Even though it may not be the intention but it can totally feel that way if you’re on the receiving end. I also know that you and NA have exchanged what I felt were harsh comments towards each other in the past so when I saw your comment I was kind of desensitized to it and I also saw that you apologized. I also know that she can dish it out and take it too. I value both of your help to commenters and I hope to see less frictions between you although I don’t have the right to tell anyone what to do or how to feel.

            I will be traveling and don’t know if I will want to be online while I’m gone but I just want to wish you a wonderful rest of the week and weekend. ❤️🦋🌸

          16. WiserNow says:

            Thank you very much MP for this comment. It’s lovely of you to say this and I appreciate it very much! You have made me feel happy and put a smile on my face. Thank you for your understanding and your kindness.❤️☺️😘

            Yes, you’re right, the frictions and ‘harshness’ in some discussions here is not enjoyable. I don’t think any empath enjoys conflict. It goes against our nature. It doesn’t make sense to me that some people actually enjoy making others feel like crap and are always on a mission to compete, or use someone, or think in win/lose terms, or trying to dominate. To me, it’s a sad way to think and they are missing out on a lot in life, even though they think it’s the empaths who are missing out.

            When I first became aware about narcissism and realised my own mother was one, it was devastating. I literally couldn’t accept that people who were ‘supposed’ to love you could do that. It didn’t make any sense. Empaths think so very differently – at least I did. Empaths don’t have ‘awareness’ because it’s something they just wouldn’t do.

            Thank you also for wishing me a good week and weekend. I’m responding a bit late because I just realised I haven’t responded to you for this particular comment yet.

            I hope you’re having a wonderful week so far too ❤️☺️

          17. MP says:

            You’re most welcome WN! ❤️💖😊

          18. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, I forgot to add that when I was frustrated that my husband said nothing was wrong with me because I felt it didn’t help me, I haven’t found Narcsite yet. Then eventually I found Narcsite and learned that some people are really by nature have traits that make them susceptible to being treated like crap by narcissists. Here I was able to learn the things I can change with my behaviors to protect myself and now I’m trying to find the balance where I will still be authentic to who I am while protecting myself. It is in my nature to like people but I have to also balance it by having boundaries and paying attention to red flags etc. So I did feel empowered having that knowledge now from HG’s works because things that go naturally for people like my husband is something that I have to learn, acquire and improve upon myself. So finally my question to my husband has been answered here except that my question “what is wrong with me” was wrong. It should be “what are my traits that are open to exploitation?” 🌸💕

          19. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            The question of “what are my traits that are open to exploitation?” is a question that ‘targets’ naturally ask themselves once they have awareness. With awareness, it follows that we want to change those aspects of ourselves, or at least make it harder for narcissists to exploit.

            It really doesn’t help when the general attitude everywhere – even with other empaths – is that ’empathic traits’ exist for no other reason than to be ‘exploited’.

            So, when an empath talks about the positive aspects of empathy – or simply tries to be ‘understood’ – they are treated as though their ‘perspective’ needs to change, or their emotional thinking is high, or they’re not ‘understanding’ etc.

            It’s a real bias in general social thinking. I think ’empathy’ or ’empathic traits’ are so devalued in society in general these days that the concepts of honesty, trust, conscience, justice, accountability, decency etc are seen as things to be laughed at, exploited or minimised as though they are ‘mistakes’.

            …and I don’t mean everyone should start adopting orphans, saving whales or chaining themselves to a tree in the Amazon. I mean just acknowledge that narcissism is making the world a more stressful, harder place to live in – for everyone.

            The state of the world we are living in should be enough to make people see that.

            Before I get people railing at me to convince me, ‘but the narcissists are doing things instinctively; it’s their narcissism, bla bla bla. I know that. I just want to repeat… I know that.

            I’m saying that things like racism in the US, totalitarianism in China, terrible poverty in places like India and Africa, refugees from places like Syria, teenage depression and suicide, human trafficking, etc – don’t these things make it blindingly obvious that narcissism is a socially negative thing?

            I don’t think you need to be an empath to see that. I think that can be acknowledged even if you don’t have empathy or a conscience. Do you want to live in a polluted wasteland where no-one’s accountable and everyone hates each other as long as you have ‘control’. It makes no sense.

            I’ve gone off on a tangent. Back to your message, yes, there are empathic traits that make us susceptible and as empaths we need to protect ourselves. I agree with you.

            I’m just saying that doesn’t mean these traits are ‘sins’ or ‘bad’. Perhaps the world would be a better place if people started to look within a bit more and ask themselves, “what kind of world do I want to live in?” Do I want to live in a world where everyone is too suspicious or embarrassed to be a bit more kind, honest and considerate? It’s really not that hard and it makes for a more progressive world.

          20. HG Tudor says:

            Explaining the positive aspects of empathy is not referred to as emotional thinking at all. Emotional thinking is making a flawed decision which is not based on logic.

            “I’m just saying that doesn’t mean these traits are ‘sins’ or ‘bad’.” you keep misunderstanding. They are described as such from the narcissistic perspective. You keep failing to remember this. You are reading a blog which explains the narcissistic perspective. As I have repeatedly explained, you do not have to like it, but you do need to understand it.

          21. WiserNow says:

            Respectfully HG,

            On the contrary, I do not “keep misunderstanding”. I do not “keep failing to remember”.

            If you go back to my message to MP, I said:
            “With awareness, it follows that (empaths) want to change those aspects of ourselves (that are open to exploitation)”

            …then I also said:
            “It’s a real bias in general social thinking. I think ’empathy’ or ’empathic traits’ are so devalued in society in general these days that the concepts of honesty, trust, conscience, justice, accountability, decency etc are seen as things to be laughed at, exploited or minimised as though they are ‘mistakes’.”

            Two concurrent and ‘logical’ things that I have said without ‘misunderstanding’ anything.

            Throughout this thread, you and others have stated that I must be influenced by ’emotional thinking’ or that my ’emotions must be running high.

            No, that’s not it.

            It’s because I am not giving you the fawning, submissive answers you feel you’re entitled to. It’s because you are not willing to admit *any* fault or ‘misinterpretation’ or ’emotional thinking’ that you or others may be prone to.

          22. HG Tudor says:

            Spare me “Respectfully”, that is only ever used when the opposite of respect is being demonstrated.

            I have not said anything about your emotional thinking. I have explained that you keep misunderstanding the CONCEPT of emotional thinking. Once again, you have demonstrated that you have got it wrong.

            I also note that you have failed to respond to my observation concerning this being a place where you are given the narcissistic perspective, something you have overlooked in your repeated comments.

            Accordingly, to suggest that my stance is based on you not giving me the “fawning, submissive answers you feel you’re entitled to” is entirely incorrect nor is it anything to do with not being willing to admit to any fault or misinterpretation. I have no need of fawning or submissive answers. I require accuracy. Throughout the existence of this place that is precisely what I have conveyed and where I have corrected people, constructively and succinctly (not telling them to “Fuck off” or labelling them as patronising) it has been in order to ensure people receive the accuracy which they require.

            I know what the concept of emotional thinking is. I see it in operation daily and I advise individuals how to recognise it, how it manifests and how it must be dealt with.

          23. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            The word ‘respectfully’ was meant truthfully. Whether you believe me or not, I *do* respect you, I respect this blog and I respect how you inform and advise people about narcissism.

            I understand the concept of ’emotional thinking’ too. It arises due to being ‘infected’ or influenced by a narcissist’s manipulations. It is caused by ‘conditioning’ which empaths can be susceptible to.

            I think the concept of ’emotional thinking’ is used incorrectly at times here on the blog in a flippant or convenient way to discredit someone’s views or to cast doubt on the validity of their argument. I’ve experienced it myself in this thread.

            Please know that I recognise that this blog is about the ‘narcissistic perspective’. I enjoy reading your well-written posts and well-explained videos very much and I have learned a great deal whenever I have been here.

            In the course of many comments following each post, there’s a wide variety of aspects discussed in relation to the ‘narcissistic perspective’. The aspects discussed will include the empathic perspective as well because it’s a relevant aspect of the ‘dynamic’.

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now

            Firstly there was no attempt by anyone to silence you.
            Secondly I agree with your point. We are all here commenting and that does mean there will be a variety of opinions.
            Lastly, thank you I will continue to respond as, when and in the manner of my choosing.

          25. WiserNow says:

            TS6157,

            From your reply, I think I’m starting to see a pattern here.

            “..there was no attempt by anyone to silence you.”

            If you go back to what I actually said:
            “If you “understand my frustration”, then why the need to silence my expression of it?”
            Your reply implies that I said you were attempting to silence me ‘in general’.
            My comment was specifically about the ‘expression of my frustration’ only.

            If someone expresses frustration and you say you understand why they are frustrated, I don’t see why you feel the need to enter into the conversation to talk them out of the expression of their frustration by explaining to them why they should stop feeling frustrated.

            I’m asking a serious question and not just being argumentative or ‘difficult’ here. Seriously, if you understand the reasons behind someone saying something in the way that they say it, why would you feel that they shouldn’t have said it that way?

            [On a side note, I was reading an article yesterday about the possible causes for a particular personality disorder I heard someone talking about and one of the causes was stated as ‘traumatic empathic failure’ in childhood. I thought that was an interesting term. It made me think that there are many ’empathic failures’ that we all experience in our daily lives all the time.]

            Yes, there will be a variety of opinions and that has been the case here on the blog all along. Why some opinions are more valid than others, (especially when the conversation doesn’t involve you in the first place), is a bit of a mystery to me. Is it because you think NarcAngel needs defending? Or maybe it’s HG? I don’t know.

            “Lastly, thank you I will continue to respond as, when and in the manner of my choosing.”

            You’re welcome, and I will do the same.

          26. HG Tudor says:

            If you comment, it is implied that anybody may comment and join the conversation. It is a public conversation within the blog, not a private conversation.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            “From your reply, I think I am starting to see a pattern here”

            I could say the same. There is something very contrived about your comments and conversations on this blog. I noticed it very early on, and see how you are manipulating people by either being abusive or over complimentary towards them. This thread is a classic example and I want to let those you have tried to intimidate know that I stand by them. They didn’t deserve it, and you might want to check your narcissistic traits before you decide to come in and steamroller someone again. Of course, I don’t expect that to happen, but I do hope people begin to see behind your manipulative nature. It is concerning to me that people who have already suffered abuse and gaslighting scenarios are now being victimized again. Far from being a victim, I believe you are a perpetrator, at least in this instance. Very early on you said you were concerned about how you come across. First red flag for me. Preparing the ground for an empathetic person to identify with you and make allowances. You seem to have switched from being concerned to making an all out assault on some people. And nobody should be concerned about what they say based on the little hissy fit you have taken in order to intimidate them. This is probably the first and last comment I will make in relation to a comment of yours. Mainly because I see dozens of red flags flying and have no intention of interacting with you any further apart from making the point I am making. No free pass from this empath for your rude and obnoxious behaviour on the blog.

          28. WiserNow says:

            Thanks for airing your views LET and for making it clear what you think.

            I didn’t ask you for a free pass and I don’t need one from you. I don’t think you and I have interacted much, if at all, on the blog. Before telling me what you think of my ‘narcissistic traits’, perhaps you should go back and read the string of ‘conversations’ I have had with NarcAngel in particular that have led to the current one here.

            Regardless, please do feel free to read my comments here and learn from anything constructive you find there.

            Whether you do or don’t read my comments, I don’t particularly want or expect an opinion from you about what I’ve said or how I’ve said it.

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            You are correct, WN, we haven’t interacted much and we won’t. I’m not interested in re-reading your comments as I find them superficial for the most part and I doubt I’ll learn anything constructive from them at all. Regardless of whether you are seeking my opinion, I have given it and your continuing dismissive attitude tells me all I need to know. If I have raised a red flag for others, then my comment will have served its purpose. I’m not particularly interested in your journey here so you need not concern yourself with further comment from me.

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now,

            I see your point and so will amend to ‘No one attempted to silence your expression of your frustration.’

            I disagree entirely that any one comment is more valid than another. Narc Angel’s comment simply resonated more with me personally, as such, I replied to her.

            The only thing you said that I took exception to was your “Fuck off Narc Angel” comment, which I described as harsh. I stand by that. If readers are told to fuck off simply for expressing their view, then this dissuades them from commenting. I acknowledge that the “fuck off” was later retracted.

            Do I think Narc Angel needs defending? No. She is very eloquent and more than capable of defending herself. My original response to you was an attempt to clear up what I perceived to be a misinterpretation of my own views, which in this case I believed coincided with those of Narc Angel. (See my response to your comment addressed to both Narc Angel and myself if you wish.) As far as the ‘fuck off’ comment goes you have my view above. I don’t think any reader or moderator should be spoken to in that fashion and I would speak up accordingly.

            I stand by my comments and see no evidence of any invalidation of your comments voiced about narcissism, it’s impact and the perception of victims.

            This might be a case of having to agree to disagree as I have nothing further to add.

          31. NarcAngel says:

            MP
            I was addressing initially that empaths are the ones who have to adapt (in the case that we want to see change), but I realized not everyone does. Some people are happy to talk about it and be validated that they are not alone in their experiences. They may not ever leave. That is their right. Still others (this would include some of my own family members) continually cite the abuser as the reason that they overeat, have substance abuse problems, are “unlucky” in life. Fair enough that the abuse was not their fault and is far reaching, but if they want to see change in their life it has to come from them. Any suggestion of change on their part produces cries that it wasn’t their fault (no one is saying it is!) and they shouldn’t have to change. It is taken as criticism (when it is not, but they fail to recognize they have been conditioned to receive it as such just as they are conditioned to accept shame etc). Continually citing the source of the abuse and receiving validation that it was not their fault has done nothing to change their trajectory and the abuse continues to infiltrate and control their lives. As bizarre as I personally find it to be, they have every right to do nothing, but it would be nice if they stopped railing on at those who consider or suggest other options as not understanding, invalidating, or blaming others. In that – they are invalidating another victim themselves. I have been told by my siblings that I am just “lucky” it didn’t affect me as it did them (wtf?!). No recognition that I took steps to change my life. They could too, but continually talking about how they were wronged seems to work for them and again, that’s their right. He’s gone but they’re keeping his legacy of control alive. I see them as wearing victim hoodies. Blaming him all day long changes nothing.

            I don’t think misunderstanding are 100% the other person’s fault. Conversely, it’s also not 100% mine if it is interpreted differently than I meant it and/or someone projects their feelings onto it without clarification.

          32. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and what are they gaining by repeatedly going over the same thing again and again? Do they gain new insight? No. Do they reach a different conclusion? No. This is demonstrative of emotional thinking resulting in individuals breaching no contact (talking and thinking about the narcissist) when they should stop keeping, as you rightly state NA, the legacy of control alive. There comes a point where people have to take responsibility for themselves through the implementation and maintenance of the no contact regime. It is ONLY through doing that, that will achieve the freedom they seek.

          33. WiserNow says:

            NarcAngel,

            “but I realized not everyone does (want to change). Some people are happy to talk about it and be validated that they are not alone in their experiences. They may not ever leave.”

            If this is directed to me, I want you to know how insulting and incorrect this is.

            I have been reading, learning, thinking and changing in a very significant way and I think that’s been evident. Not only that, I have commented about ways to re-think or re-frame thought patterns and I see others here talking about the same concepts or terminology.

            I have suggested self-help concepts to people here and I have given reassuring or affirming replies to people. Most of these things were said after researching books and articles and discovering them from thinking about what helps me and wanting to pass on my ideas to help others. People have thanked me and said that it helped them to think about things differently.

            You have absolutely no right to say this to me. Furthermore, it is absolutely baseless and just a cheap lie. It shows that you want to smear me to score points for yourself and you don’t care how you go about doing that.

            Furthermore, if you wonder when others will leave, then why are you still here?

          34. NarcAngel says:

            TS

            You’re right. No comment is more valid than another and it is not invalidation of one to agree with or respond to another.

            Everyone

            They’re opinions and comments on a blog – not dicks.
            Don’t take them so hard.

          35. WiserNow says:

            Exactly NarcAngel.

            So, in future, if I want to ‘rail’ at narcissists (your word, not mine) in one comment out of 100 where the other 99 comments are helpful, understanding or constructive, can you please back off and stop demanding that the ‘poor unknowing’ narcissists of the world be understood and adapted to?

            Thanks.

          36. NarcAngel says:

            WN
            You are free to say anything you like, but you have a hard time affording that right to anyone else if their viewpoint does not align with yours and you take them as a personal criticism. They are not – they are simply another viewpoint that does not invalidate yours. Give people credit for being intelligent enough to decide what resonates with them.

            I have validated for you honestly that the abuse you suffered was not your fault and that you are not to blame. In your comment to Asp Emp and AV you offered validation that they were made to feel certain things by the narcissist. That is true and applies to all of us. Might it be possible that you were conditioned to feel criticized and that affects your interpretation of input outside of your own?

            “demanding that the poor unknowing narcissists of the world be understood and adapted to”

            That is but one example of poor interpretation.

            As I stated – no one has to do anything. It’s personal choice.

          37. Truthseeker6157 says:

            MP,

            The more I hear about your husband the more I like him. You have a good egg there!

            I hope you continue to add his view in your comments when you see the opportunity. For me, he adds context and balance. We have the Narcissistic Perspective explained by HG and a room filled with empaths representing the Empathic Perspective. I enjoy seeing the Normal Perspective too. It drives home to me why normals are less prone to lengthy ensnarements and your examples highlight why. I like the context these examples provide. I also register my reaction to his behaviours. It’s usually something along the lines of ‘Good for you! Nice one!’ So, if I see his behaviours as justified, then I should be able to implement more of them in my own day to day dealings in real life.

            There has been a discussion about overthinking things on a recent thread. I think often, our gut instincts are correct as regards narcissistic behaviours. What empaths tend to do though is overthink it, make excuses or have concerns about how they or the narcissist will be perceived by others. ‘Am I crazy for thinking this?’ or, ‘ It’s unfair to blank him at my daughters recital’ etc. We have that extra layer of thinking that causes us to question ourselves and give benefit of the doubt. This extra layer is lovely in many respects, I think it’s our safeguarding empathy, (I need to check that) but in the case of the narcissist, it’s also what trips us up. There are things we can recognise and learn from your examples I think.

            Thank you for sharing this MP.

          38. A Victor says:

            TS and MP,
            I agree with TS that your husband does sound very good, and good for you. I apologize for saying somewhere that normals annoy me, not all of them certainly, I think it is more a case of not understanding them than anything.

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now,

            With reference to your comment about feeling “victimised” or being “falsely labelled.”

            If you feel victimised, then I can safely say that this is something I would never wish any empath to feel and particularly not here on the blog.

            I would however request that you read your comments back and consider how they might be interpreted by others. If new arrivals to the thread are commenting defensively then there is a reason for that. Personally, I felt your comments to me were dismissive, I thought you talked down to me and I felt you were unwilling to consider the fact that my agreeing with NA did not mean I was disagreeing with you. I was made to feel that I had interrupted and given my opinion on a thread where I was not invited and had no right to do so.

            You and I have spoken previously. Your comments on this thread seemed out of character to me. I assumed there must be a reason for the erosion of your empathy in this case. As such, I disregarded the condescending tone employed and was careful to respond as evenly as possible. This is not to say that your tone was lost on me.

            My overall view is that we are all on the same side here. I actually don’t disagree with anything you said in relation to your frustration with narcissism and the general treatment of victims. I tried to clarify this in my original response to you. I do however take exception to insults or implied insults directed towards myself or other readers. ‘Fawning sycophant’ being an example.

            I think with emotions running high you have misinterpreted some answers to your comments and would respectfully suggest that you review them to see where that might be the case.

          40. lickemtomorrow says:

            My first response to the victimization comment was “Cry me a river”

            Empathic traits totally eroded on this one. Or SE coming to the fore.

          41. Leigh says:

            At first I felt bad that WN felt like she was being victimized. After reading through this thread though, I see red flags flying everywhere. I’ve seen her be argumentative before too. I gave her the benefit of the doubt though because she seemed kind to others. My antennae are up now though.

          42. WiserNow says:

            Hi TS6157,

            Thanks for your comment.

            Not really sure why you expect me to go back and ‘self-reflect’ without saying the same about anyone else…

            I have seen plenty of comments here telling me what they think of my perspective and attitude. I keep being told it must be my ’emotional thinking’ causing me to see things incorrectly etc etc.

            Not one person has said they did actually go back to my original comment to see what it said. Not one person used their ‘logical thinking’ to focus on the points raised in that first comment. Everyone saw my responses and quickly decided that I must be the one that needs to ‘alter my perspective’.

            Rather than shining the spotlight on *my* ‘self-reflection’ – perhaps share the need to ‘self-reflect’ around a bit.

            Anyway, as I said in another message, I appreciate everyone’s comments here. I think I’ve made my thoughts and ‘perspective’ pretty clear. Thanks for your message and your thoughts, however, I don’t think it’s helping anyone to keep going on with this discussion.

          43. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Wiser Now,

            Thank you for your comment. You might want to make yourself a brew. Grab a snack etc.

            You won’t know this, I’ve spoken to others here about it, but self reflection is my middle name! Something the narc left me with. More self edit I suppose, check, re check how my comments could be perceived. I still get it wrong sometimes.

            You might remember my ensnarement was largely online, I met up with the narc a few times. We spent hours and hours online chatting, then suddenly he could turn on a hairpin. Seemingly entirely misinterpret an innocent comment. Of course I know now what that was about but for a long time I didn’t. I became hyper vigilant in that respect. I turned my comments around and around to check he couldn’t misinterpret them. I still do it now, thats my residual effect of my ensnarement. I do it mostly online, I don’t often self edit face to face. I’m part Contagion, I don’t need to. A lot of the time I can feel how I’m being perceived. A lot of the time I know what’s coming next.

            I have read this thread several times top to bottom. I agree with everything you said to AV. She shouldn’t feel embarrassed about any aspect of her ensnarement, because she didn’t know what she was dealing with. None of us did until we landed here. I thought you were supportive and correct in the points you made. I understand why Asp asked the question she asked too. It’s a question someone would ask. AV and Asp discuss a lot together, So there’s already an understanding there. It’s very open. Asp Emp was simply questioning to gain further understanding.

            I agree with your points on accountability too. Narcissists should be held accountable for their abusive behaviours. Too right they should! Coercive control laws were a breakthrough there and as you rightly pointed out to Asp Emp there are other ways to hold narcissists accountable. You weren’t suggesting AV should lay down and play dead. I don’t believe anyone interpreted your comment as such. You were validating her experience. As I said, I value your responses on the blog.

            Different people handle recovery differently as you doubtless know. Perspectives vary. It depends on the ensnarement, school and cadre of empath, depends also on timing, where we are up to in recovery. I make no bones about it, comparatively I’ve had an easy ride. I’m not an ACON. I now recognise one previous ensnarement that lasted around a year I think. I came out of that entirely unscathed. The online narc, strangely, not so much. So comparatively, my views, my experiences are likely different to those of an ACON for example. They are no less valid though. I have never felt sadness like I felt during and post my ensnarement. Crippling sadness. When I arrived here I needed the cold hard logic, but I also needed the support and understanding of the other empaths, such as you demonstrated with AV. There’s a need for both elements and I received both.

            For me and my recovery, once my ET fell, the tipping point came when I started looking at my own role in it. Again, HG set me off on the right path.

            Exorcism

            “ This form of grieving is especially important because you may think that you are grieving the loss of the person that you loved and adored beyond anything else. You are not actually grieving the loss of us…. you are actually grieving for yourself,”

            This set me onto a different phase of recovery. Unfortunately, ET re scrambled the message whilst that phase was underway, but I did go back to it and unpick exactly what my role in my ensnarement was. I re considered my feelings for him and what they were based on. I looked at things he had actually said, as opposed to what I had interpreted that he said. I looked at what I had needed at that time and how he appeared to cater to that need. My conclusion was that through no fault of my own, and to borrow a phrase from HG. He was the Angel of My Creation. My creation. Not the narc’s creation. That wasn’t necessarily my fault, he built the bare bones of the house. It was me who decorated it.

            If I don’t want a repeat of my ensnarement there are behaviours of my own that I can identify, amend and lock down to help ensure I don’t get ensnared again. This gives control back to me. Raising awareness about narcissism gives control back to me. I am at this point in my recovery now. This is why Narc Angel’s comment resonated strongly with me and why I responded to it.

            In my view and for the reasons HG states, narcissists won’t change their behaviours. I don’t believe that’s him saying ‘The poor narcissists shouldn’t change. You should all go off and change so they don’t have to.’ I don’t believe Narc Angel is saying that either. I believe that’s him saying ‘Fact. They won’t change. Find another way to take back control.’

            In my view, raising awareness of narcissists and their behaviours has to be the fastest route to protecting more people like us. Once narcissism is highlighted, identified and discussed openly through the media etc, I think that will pave the way to more laws to counter its effect. More opportunity for narcissists to be held accountable and in the ways you suggested. It takes a narc to take down a narc. We have the Ultra right here. Primed and ready to go, we just need to get him more visibility.

            If you are still awake, I did re read your comments. I did re read everyone else’s comments. I re read my own comments! I do a lot of reading! There is misinterpretation evident here Wiser Now. Whatever the reason, you went on the defensive, then you entrenched and honestly, from what I can see, you didn’t need to. That’s not me wagging a finger, that’s me doing what I would hope one of the other empaths here would do for me if I misinterpreted a comment or was coming across in a way that isn’t representative of who they know me to be.

            I agree. If this feels like a circular conversation to you, we should stop. That isn’t what I’m trying to do here.

          44. HG Tudor says:

            I consistently explain, you do not change who you are (you cannot and why should you) you change who you interact with. You effect this change because of your innate susceptibility to the presence of the narcissist and the increased ET when we draw near. Stay away from narcissists (aside from intermittent interactions with “background” narcissists – see Cross Pollution) and your addiction will not cause you a problem. Keep interacting – spending time with a familial narcissist, being involved romantically with a narcissist, spending a lot of time with a narcissist socially and so forth and then the various problems of the Devil´s Pitchfork manifest.

          45. Asp Emp says:

            HG, a great comment, “you do not change who you are (you cannot and why should you) you change who you interact with”, I agree and thank you for this (I’d read where you have said this in another thread on KTN).

            Changing the way we think in relation to Logical & Emotional Thinking does not change who we are as individuals.

          46. A Victor says:

            TS,
            Exorcism

            “ This form of grieving is especially important because you may think that you are grieving the loss of the person that you loved and adored beyond anything else. You are not actually grieving the loss of us…. you are actually grieving for yourself,”

            I missed this when I read Exorcism a few months ago. Now I see, I was way beyond missing him even when he left, but I was grieving for my own lost dreams, hopes and desires. And not willing to take the chance again on losing those things for a whole decade. Then it happened again. And again, loss for what I hoped would be. It feels like the addiction goes beyond the narcissist, out into our minds, our thoughts, romantic ideals, fantasies, daydreams, everything that is not solid and on the ground. How sad, I like all of those things. Or is that just my ET speaking? Wow, this puts a whole new perspective on it. I’m going to read that book again now, just as soon as I finish a few other things, today. It’s a huge puzzle piece because I have known I didn’t miss my ex, what was holding me back then? Now I may know. Thank you.

          47. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your words of support in your comment to WN. Much appreicated 🙂

          48. WiserNow says:

            Wow.

            So, let me get this straight…

            You feel justified and entitled to tell me that:
            “I think with emotions running high you have misinterpreted some answers to your comments and would respectfully suggest that you review them to see where that might be the case.”

            Then, when I respond with:
            “Rather than shining the spotlight on *my* ‘self-reflection’ – perhaps share the need to ‘self-reflect’ around a bit.”

            …you feel the need to go into a long-winded unnecessary diatribe of your life history and all the reasons how and why you have already ‘self-reflected’. Complete with the patronising and minimising introduction that I should get myself a cup of tea and grab a snack.

            Just wow. Narcissistic much?

            …and I’m the one who is ‘railing’? I’m the one whose ’emotions are running high’? I’m the one who needs to ‘self-reflect’? I’m the one who is not open to other opinions and other views? Jesus 🙄

            I’m learning NS6157 that I have ‘choices’. I’m ‘choosing’ not to be fawning and submissive despite the entitled, repeated attempts of others to insist on it.

          49. Violetta says:

            WiserNow:.

            I’m well aware that much of the world, including many Normals, regards Empaths as suckers who deserve it for not wising up. We can’t change what we are any more than narcs can, but we can change what we do. You can bet narcs ain’t gonna change shitfuck for nobody.

            We’ll have to become more selective about whom we’re nice to and whom we open up to. Take time to know people, see if a suspicious number of their behaviors show up in Red Flag and Black Flag. I don’t know if there’s a critical number or percentage, but what I’ve been learning here is to identifypatterns. My last miserable workplace, I couldn’t tell you every single narc in it, but there were several people I could categorically state were NOT narcs, nor even highly Narcissistic. Monarch butterflies (which are poisonous to predators) look very similar to Viceroys (which merely taste bad), but they can be distinguished by wing pattern and flight characteristics.

            We had better study how to resist them, because they are always studying how to ensnare us, even if they do so unconsciously.

          50. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG,

            I agree, I have never seen any comment from you suggesting we should change. Only a similar vein to the comment above, ‘you aren’t able to and why should you?’ I do see mistakes I made that facilitated that ensnarement though. I do think there are things I can do and be aware of within myself that prevent a similar ensnarement arising again. Outside of knowing the red flags I mean. I don’t see that as changing or dialling down my empathic traits, I just see it as being sensible, being more self aware about how involved I get with people online etc. I don’t even mean dating sites. Just online in general.

            Technically, I should be able to walk through Moss Side unaccompanied, wearing a bikini and a Rolex at 2 am on a Friday night. That doesn’t mean it would be sensible for me to do so. Sensible would be, stay away from Moss Side to begin with.

            I did think about another factor that blinkered me as well. Similar theme to ‘They donate to charity so they must be a good person / not be a narcissist.’ Job Association.

            Online narc was a fire fighter. When his comments turned stranger, when he pulled the roof of the hotel stunt, I thought to myself that something was very wrong. I kept thinking though, ‘He’s emergency services, they have to pass psychological testing. If there was something not right, he wouldn’t still be in that role.’His job signified ‘A good man’ solid, trustworthy etc. The whole rescuing thing, the uniform, obviously, those lovely epaulettes…..
            Certain jobs signify ‘trust me’. The job definitely played a part in my trusting him to begin with and then doubting my own conclusions as it progressed.

          51. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now,

            The cup of tea and a snack was a reference to the length of my reply. Probably the longest reply to anyone I’ve written on the blog. I’m not known for being concise.

            However. Understood.

          52. HG Tudor says:

            I viewed it as a polite joke, TS, however WN is determined to find fault on a repeated basis.

          53. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            You can have the last word.

            …the only trouble with that is that I can’t say you can have the last word without you saying something next so that you actually have the last word…

            Go on HG… go ahead and have the last word….

          54. WiserNow says:

            ..by the way, I’m just having a bit of fun. After this thread, I think we can all do with some 😉

          55. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG,

            You interpreted me correctly.

          56. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            You’re very welcome xx

          57. JB says:

            TS, I don’t know if I am writing in the right place, as no option to reply where your long comment was, but never mind!

            I understood what you meant, a harmless joke referring to the length of what you had written. I also thought your comment showed genuine understanding and compassion towards all concerned.

          58. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I’m glad that the quote from Exorcism helped. Exorcism really helped me. That single quote however touched me on a whole different level. For someone to really get it to that extent, a thought that is so very personal, a thought really that we would never voice, demonstrates an intense level of understanding on the part of its writer.

            The level of attachment we experience I think is due to The Addiction which in turn leads to the Emotional Thinking. Circumstances that came before the ensnarement are circumstances. Narcissists do have a knack of spotting us when we are wounded. The wound could be down to any number of factors, failed relationship, loss of a loved one, a feeling of entrapment etc. So the narcissist is instantly given a purpose / a rescuing role and its handed to him on a silver platter.

            The circumstances that came before the ensnarement create a specific need. We believe that the narcissist is the answer to filling that need. The narcissist happily shifts into that role and appears during the golden period to be the answer we were looking for. Because we convince ourselves and see apparent proof of this being the case, the loss of that person is more about the loss of what they signified to us as opposed to the person themselves.

            When HG says to leave at least 6 months between the end of an ensnarement and the start of a new relationship, I think this is part of the reason. ET needs to be low for us to spot red flags, but also, we need to be recovered. We can’t show up still wounded and still looking for the answer in the form of a partner. Really, we need to be happy within ourselves. Whatever the situation was that created the need, that has to be resolved and by us. Going out with friends just to be with friends, spending time with family, eating well, looking after ourselves properly, really enjoying our hobbies and our own lives for exactly what they are is when it’s time to open the floor to the idea of another relationship and not before. It’s another way of reducing the chances of being easily drawn in. In my view anyway.

            When people express such gratitude to HG, there’s a reason for it. In my case, he understood that horrible enduring sadness, and his writing showed me the way out of it.

          59. A Victor says:

            TS, yes, reading that quote in your comment made me realize just how well HG does understand empaths, how we think, and what we need.

            It is essential to wait the 6 months. In my case, it will have been approximately 30 years since my last first date and 11 years since my last romantic, in person, relationship ended. It has only been 8 months since the online one ended. And of course, there is my mother upstairs. She may keep my ET elevated but it cannot be much since there is virtually no contact. She has come to not even expect it, I believe.

            I have expressed gratitude to HG, I have my reasons for doing so, they are very real. I understand that we all do. He also understood my horrible, enduring sadness, better than I did, and now I also am using his materials to pull myself out of it, make sense out of it and hopefully not become ensnared again.

            I don’t completely understand your comment but this thread has been pretty emotional so I will chalk it up to that. I hope all is going well for you TS, you have been such a blessing to me since I arrived, I am very grateful for all of your input.

          60. WiserNow says:

            TS6157,

            “Really, we need to be happy within ourselves. Whatever the situation was that created the need, that has to be resolved and by us.”

            Go tell that to George Floyd when he’s lying in the gutter with a narcissist’s knee on his neck for nine minutes.

            “Hey George, I know you’re being abused right now, but you need to change your ‘perspective’ because if you don’t understand the policeman’s ‘perspective’, you’re partly to blame for this situation you are in.
            I know you are living in oppressive conditions, struggling with rampant poverty and gang violence, but if that’s a wound and a need you have, it can only be ‘resolved’ if you change your ‘perspective’.
            …and by the way, buddy, can you do something about that black skin of yours too? It’s not really helping you with the whole ‘dynamic’ … ”

            Once more for the people at the back…. nowhere did I say that empaths want to stay the same. Nowhere did I say that they aren’t willing to change or ‘resolve’ their situation.

            It’s a ‘society-wide’ collective problem. If narcissism and narcissistic traits are normalised and the onus of ‘change’ is heaped onto the Target only at every turn, then that is not realistic.

          61. Asp Emp says:

            TS, it was interesting to read your comment. It prompted (reminded) me to re-visit HG’s video ‘The 3 Types of Revenge’.

            I do not know what the statistics are in relation to how many people use HG’s work for the purpose of learning about narcissism – like how many ACONs there are and how many non-ACONs were ensnared by narcissists – the information is not relevant to what I am saying.

            In all honesty, I have no idea how long it took for my own ET to reduce. In my view, I think that it takes longer than 6 months for maybe the majority of ACONs (hence HG’s suggestion of “at least 5 to 6 months” when it comes to No Contact – removing control & fuel = removing the Prime Aims, preventing potential hoovers, time to recover & reduction of ET levels). Especially when learning about narcissism, it’s affects, understanding what an ACON experiences, what the addiction to narcissism is, and so on.

            It also depends on whether there is comorbidity present within ‘victims’ of narcissism. Some people are not aware of such comorbidity within themselves – like I was diagnosed with Aspergers when I was 45 years old – very late in life. I am recalling a conversation on a thread on this blog between you and me on similar topic.

            What you say in the 4th paragraph of your comment – I totally agree, we, as individuals need to ensure we are ‘happy’ within ourselves by ‘resolving’ our own issues within ourselves before embarking on a new intimate relationship with someone.

            I didn’t’ think I ever would reach the stage that I am at now, I was not able to ‘see’ it, even this time last year. I had to deal with my own ‘darkness’ first, which I believe I now have. I cannot even recall where I ‘was’ mentally or emotionally this time last year – I know I was totally and utterly fkd up. The Covid-shite added uncertainty – yet it was a blessing in disguise because it allowed me to get my head down and do my learning.

            Now, maybe I will ‘glide’ gracefully as an empowered empath (glide gracefully?!)…… laughing, as I have wondered if HG did wonder ‘Who is this person, coming to my blog, screaming and shouting?’ Ah, bless him, for permitting me to be myself and it is one of the best things that you can give someone, the space and the freedom to do so – not changing who and what I am but changing the way I think and…… behave (oh, yes?…. Laughing).

          62. Leigh says:

            Mother F******! Sorry. I just needed to scream. I wanted my husband to save me from my mother. Just like I wanted workplace narc to save me from my husband. I’m seeing a pattern here. Boy was I wrong on both counts. They both spotted me when I was wounded and in a vulnerable state and took advantage of that. Mother F******!

            What I failed to see is that I didn’t need either one of them to save me. I can save myself.

            This was eye opening for me. Thank you TS!

          63. A Victor says:

            When these moments of enlightenment hit us, it can seem wonderful and overwhelming at the same time. Wonderful because now we can do something to change it. But overwhelming that we now must. Or not. haha.

          64. Leigh says:

            Extremely overwhelming. There are days I want to go back under my rock before I knew any of this.

          65. A Victor says:

            Haha, coming out from under my rock is the unusual thing for me to do! I could literally be happy as a hermit.

          66. Leigh says:

            Its interesting AV. Now I would be very happy as a hermit too. But that’s just recently. Most of my life, I wanted to be around other people, all the time. Now, I don’t want to be around anyone.

            When I say I want to go back under my rock, I mean I want to go back to a time when I didn’t know about narcissism. Life was somehow easier then.

          67. A Victor says:

            Oh, yes, that makes sense! I recently said I want a vacation from all of this, same idea. But, we can’t. Once you know, you know. And a little knowledge can be quite dangerous I think, better to just rip the bandage off and learn it all. That’s my stategy anyway, it hurts too much to be half-way, dreading pulling off that other half. That’s where my wanting to know shows itself. Well, one place anyway. 🙂

          68. A Victor says:

            Strategy*

          69. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp Emp,

            It would be interesting to know the breakdown of visitors to the blog in term of ACONS and non ACONS though I agree the process of recovery is similar. In terms of ET, I agree also it’s an individual thing. If you could put us in a controlled environment, entirely narc free and monitor accurately a diminishing rate of ET, it might be more similar than we would expect. In real life there are all kinds of things that will be uneven, narcs at work or not, social narcs, neighbour narcs, family narcs etc, many of whom we might not necessarily spot.

            My ET took longer than 6 months to fall too. I’d say a reasonably fast fall to start with so I lost the cloudiness and could think clearly, then I plateaued for a long time with good days and not good days. I’ve read again recently, can’t remember which article, that if sadness remains then the most likely cause is a No Contact problem. I’d agree with that, thinking about the narcissist was a nightmare for me. I fed into it myself, not on purpose, but I appear to be resistant to the building of new pathways. That might explain my horrific sense of direction as well! I did find an alternative in the end, and that in itself was only possible due to lowered ET. ET thanks to the Addiction, really is the king pin. No other ‘expert’ in narcissism has made that connection to my knowledge.

            To introduce comorbidity into the mix as well must make it far tougher. I do remember our conversation x. You really have had a lot on your plate to learn about. I’m glad you are feeling that you are coming out of it all feeling on top and in control. Gliding? You? Hmmm haha! No gliding over here either. Stride maybe?

            I do still fluctuate in terms of ET. Not dramatically, but if I stress myself out over something, if I’m worrying, that’s when I’ll think about the narc. Briefly, no real ache, more a frustration that that apparent ‘support’ is not and was never an option. I don’t have a comorbidity that I’m aware of, but I am starting to recognise triggers within myself that would put me more at risk at certain times. It’s a constant learning really. Addiction doesn’t go away does it? You just learn more ways to better manage it. Xx

          70. Asp Emp says:

            Hello TS! “My ET took longer than 6 months to fall too. I’d say a reasonably fast fall to start with so I lost the cloudiness and could think clearly, then I plateaued for a long time with good days and not good days” – I think this is what happened to me – probably does with a lot of us ‘recovering’ narcolics…. if sadness remains – I think it depends on the individual in question and what took place throughout life, ie any major traumas etc.

            Laughing…. RE: gliding…. skating maybe 😉 LOL

            I agree “more a frustration that that apparent ‘support’ is not and was never an option” – BUT, the support is here – between us all on this blog (and you too, HG, thank you 🙂 ).

            Your last sentence, once the Addiction is understood, it does get easier to manage (just 😉 ). Constance learning = absolutely. X

          71. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I see what you mean, I wandered off on a tangent a little bit in the second part. I had been thinking about various points you have raised across different threads. The sense of self, desire to share all the good things about your life with someone new, the impact left by the parental and romantic narcissists.

            You have left gaps in relationships before and long gaps. Time enough for ET to fall on the face of it. I think though that because previously you didn’t have the knowledge of narcissism and the impact it had, in many ways mentally you would have been stuck in the same position. Now you are gaining knowledge, you can see all of the various threads between you and the various narcissists and now that you can see them, you can also unpick them. Things are different now and there is no reason history has to repeat itself. Moving forward into a healthy relationship is possible when you feel the time is right. I do firmly believe that.

            The sense of self I think is tied into that. I’ve learned a lot here since doing the detectors. With me I knew what my behaviours and reactions were, I just didn’t know exactly why I did them. Understanding why has made me more accepting of myself. Good bits and so called bad bits. Before Narcsite I’d have been in the camp of ‘I am what I am’. Now I’d say ‘I am what I am and I understand why.’ Things that were odd, I mostly see as strengths now. Things I might be criticised for, such as ruling someone out because I don’t trust them, I think are just my empathic instincts. They are there for a reason. So rather than listen to the, ‘Why are you being like that when he’s such a nice guy?’ guilt trip, I’ll think, ‘There’s a reason I don’t warm to this person and I don’t necessarily need to explore or explain why.’

            I’m figuring more things out and learning more every day, and it’s making me far happier within myself. I think that’s all part of the process of moving forward, so when the ‘someone new’ comes along, we’re ready to start over without being weighed down by the past. Exorcism was key in getting me to think what it was I had been looking for, and why. Someone got it, got me and at that point I really needed someone to get it. I think that’s kind of what was running through my head in the last comment!

            I’m glad my thoughts have helped since your arrival here AV. I’m figuring things out through our conversations too and I’m very thankful you are here on the blog xx

          72. A Victor says:

            TS, your comment is very helpful for me to follow the one I found confusing, thank you. I knew it was something good, just wasn’t sure what. Now I understand. And, I have been watching my ET fall, and occasionally spike when a couple of things happen, but it is a process, a fascinating process! I’ve been wondering how to know when we’ve reached our lowest possible point. What you and Asp Emp said makes sense regarding that. And helps me feel a bit better on how long it is taking.

            Yes, the sense of self being tied in to the detectors and our behaviors and the whys behind them, very true. I don’t fully understand the whys yet, but it’s coming along. And good grief, my mother spoke through your statement ‘Why are you being like that when he’s such a nice guy?’, along with many others. That really hit me in another comment from someone on here today also, just how she colored my thinking about what I should accept from people and what I should not. Ugh.

            Thank you for the reply, it was very helpful.

          73. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            I laughed out loud at that. Totally, mother ******s !

            You know how powerful men sometimes go the dominatrix ‘ May I lick your boots mistress’ route? They get sick of being the one in control all the time. I wonder if there isn’t a similar subconscious element in play with the Saviours or, some Saviours some of the time perhaps? Tired of saving everyone else, who saves me? Carriers might be similar.

            I don’t feel like I want to be saved all the time. In fact I can’t deal with people fussing. If I’m ill for example, go away and leave me be, don’t rub my back, don’t keep checking, just leave me be. Sometimes though, just sometimes, would someone please just take the reigns and give me a damn break! I was definitely in that mindset when Fireman Narc showed up. You couldn’t script it better really could you? Ha ha! Mother******!

          74. Leigh says:

            You are 100% correct. That’s it, I’m tired of saving and carrying. Who’s going to carry and save me??? What’s funny is that I say that, but if push came to shove, I wouldn’t want anyone to save or carry me. I can’t deal with people fussing either. I’m the exact same way, leave me be, I’ll take care of myself.

          75. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Totally agree. The safe place. Sometimes it’s ‘TS, it isn’t time to go yet. I’ll see you tomorrow.’ Sometimes it’s just the need to vent and have someone here to listen because they totally understand why. And sometimes it’s (deep voice) ‘Your ET isn’t as low as you think it is TS’. All of them necessary, offered with the best of intentions. A safe place. Xx

          76. Asp Emp says:

            TS, yes, I’ve had one of those “your ET needs further education” from The ‘deep voice’ man. Even though we’re adults, we arrive at KTN as ‘first day at school pupils’ before progressing through secondary school, college and university then return at ‘reunions’… some will not ‘fly the nest’ yet perch on the Tree of Knowledge somewhere, wearing the Weaponised Empath branded in their necks 😉

          77. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            Haha, yep, I’m actually not great at being saved. On the rare occasion someone does take the reigns I sneakily keep my little finger wrapped round them anyway. I find it very difficult to let someone take over. It’s very like the giving up smoking thing. I liked to know that the pack was in the drawer, there if needed. In actual fact I didn’t need it. I just thought I did.

        2. A Victor says:

          WiserNow, it is a balancing act, understanding the blame for each side, taking personal responsibility for our part of it AND not accepting or hoisting blame on ourselves or other victims. We each bring a different perspective, I understood what you were saying, and appreciated it very much, I have had enough of feeling like I’m to blame.

          I also understand you were not saying sit in that place, you were instead acknowledging that that place exists, and thus validating me there, in that place. I am mature enough as a person to understand that I need to make changes, take my personal responsibility and move forward, you also understood this, I believe, and you were not speaking to that aspect. You were being a salve in that moment.

          I also appreciate thoughts that come and spur me into action, some from you and some from others, those are necessary as well. I have been so happy to meet all of you here and I value so much the input and support from each one, each one in their own way and from their own perspective, I have learned so much.

          Thank you to you all, very much, I wish there was a more meaningful way to express it.

          1. Melmel says:

            Yes to this thread!

            It is so easy to “backslide” back into ET. It’s the Addiction that makes us do it. We seek out (and protect) a state of being that does not do us ANY favours!
            One thing I’ve learned on here is that any interaction (even if largely in writing, and even through third parties) will feed the Addiction and make my ET higher. Then everything in my life suffers because my behaviour is powered by this state of mind.

          2. Leigh says:

            Melmel, you really hit the nail on the head with this post. Any interaction at all heightens our ET. And yes its so freaking easy to backslide into ET. And yes, our addiction makes us do it. And everything in our life suffers because our behavior is powered by this state of mind. So absolutely true!!!

            Thank you! I needed to see this!

          3. A Victor says:

            Melmel, I have been meaning to reply to this comment but they are hard to find on here, I almost have to reread the entire thing to find the one I am looking for. Anyway, yes, easy to “backslide”. And it’s really amazing when you can actually feel it happening, which I have experienced a couple of times. And yes, everything suffers when it is behind the wheel!

          4. WildViolet22 says:

            Regarding when the emotional thinking decreased- I’ll share with you guys what happened in my situation, in case this helps anyone.

            But I didn’t have a linear path, since I broke the no contact the first time I had a go at that, at the start of the pandemic, and I was off the wagon for a few months. When I first blocked him it was for 2 months, and my emotional thinking was very high the whole time. That was around the time I found this website, and I was doing a lot of reading here. So when I caved and unblocked him and contacted him, and his self absorbed “apology” full of excuses mirrored what I had been reading here about the “victim” types, I knew deep down it was going to be over, but I was still in contact with him, if not infrequently, but I was checking my phone and hoping for messages, and not fully “out”.

            Last summer, it did all finally sink in, and I was truly done with being treated badly, and finally told him to just go, I couldn’t take it anymore. I really reached my tolerance limit, and was done with my emotional well being hanging off of what some jerk was doing or not doing (I mean really), and I’d say by the 6 month mark I had picked my dignity up off the floor, and my emotional thinking was lower. I can tell I’m better when I’m not spending as much time reading self help stuff, and more engaged with every day life, going for walks, reading books that interest me, etc.

            However, no way am I ever putting my head back on the chopping block to test that and find out. We knew each other when we were younger and I always had a soft spot for him, so I’m not taking any chances. My goal is for the no contact to be permanent this time.

        3. MP says:

          WiserNow, I actually realized that everyone gets victimized by narcissists but empaths tend to keep the entanglement (literally or emotionally) more than normals. My husband whom I think is a normal was ensnared to by his first wife whom he had three kids. He was very religious so he stayed in the marriage but emotionally he was out. She then divorced him and really made him pay up. She eventually lost everything and is now really poor though. But after the divorce he totally did what HG teaches here about not engaging and minimal contact (because they have kids together so NC was not possible). His responses to her were almost cut and dried because he said if it isn’t there’s going to be room for her to cause conflicts so it’s best for him to keep his communications with her short and to the point. He a avoided her too and didn’t talk to her in their kids’ events in school where they both went even though she initiated greeting him in front of people he didn’t even greet her back even with other people looking at them and judging him for being impolite to her. He didn’t even know that he was dealing with a narcissist and yet it was as if he was excellently following HG’s advice.

          Last Mother’s Day we went to an iris farm that we go to every Mother’s Day and a narcissist made our four year old daughter cry. It was an old lady and looking back I realized what she is. Our daughter being a girly girl was dressed in a pink organza dress with flower prints and random flower appliqués and as soon as we arrived she saw a diy crown with ribbons being sold so she begged us to buy it for her so we got it. It totally matched her dress in a frilly bohemian look and she was turning all kinds of heads. Then she started chasing three butterflies and her personality was so funny with the things she was saying to the butterflies she was chasing and she got the attention of the son and daughter in law of the narcissist old lady. The daughter in law was clearly an empath as she was so happy to watch our daughter and she was saying to her husband “wow is this really happening? Everything is so perfect, the girl, her dress, her hair, and the butterflies.” She even asked to look at the pictures I took. And the N old lady was just standing there like a statue observing everyone like she was in her own space. Her son and daughter in law’s attention both fully on our little girl instead of her. Then my husband and her son started exchanging funny remarks and we were all laughing watching them then suddenly the an old lady reprimanded our daughter for trying to push the metal garden table that was heavier than our daughter. Our kids were pushing the table from opposite sides and they rough house and play like that all the time but never to the point of really pushing something out of place. All of a sudden I felt our daughter press her face to my side and she was quietly crying. The N lady said to me that she didn’t mean to make my daughter cry but she didn’t look sympathetic but I nodded to her anyway and just kept putting my arm on my daughter. We left their group and my kids found the farm owner’s hound dog which was so amazingly gentle and tolerated our kids invading his or her space and touching him or her everywhere. Our daughter completely recovered and was completely focused on the dog with her brother. The N old lady’s group followed us and my daughter didn’t even look at the old lady or even mentioned her. I’m so happy to see how fast she disengaged from the old lady and I’m thankful for what I think was a right decision for me to not explain away or justify the old lady’s behavior to my daughter and I just allowed my daughter to process it in her head. Sorry for the long anecdotes but the point I want to make is that everyone can be victimized by narcissists even when we are not empaths or just a four year old who happened to accidentally steal their spotlight. But empaths seem to be more affected emotionally and for me that is one of the things I want to work on with myself.

      2. A Victor says:

        TS, “Narcissists are powered by us.” – thank you for this, this is very helpful. We can remove the option of fuel and they will go elsewhere.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          AV,

          You’re welcome. Xx

      3. Truthseeker6157 says:

        JB,

        Thank you. That means a lot. Xx

        1. JB says:

          TS, you’re welcome. Xx

  15. WiserNow says:

    “…the simple reason that I am superior to you. I am entitled to take such steps and act in this way. It is a given. Accordingly, by behaving in this manner I am simply doing that which is expected of me and that is my right.”

    “I am superior to you”. . . ?
    Is that why you can’t show your real self (because you are either ashamed or it or can’t access it at all)? Is that why you deliberately choose and target victims who are susceptible or vulnerable? Is that why you undermine and isolate? Is that why you deliberately mock, belittle, dismiss and insult others? How is that ‘superior’?

    “I am entitled to take such steps”. . . ?
    Really? Who told you that, or who made you think it? Is that a lie you keep telling yourself until you believe it? Is that why you need to deceive and mirror those you meet, adopting their traits, to build your fake facade to hook them in?

    “..that which is expected of me and that is my right.” . . . ?
    Who expects it of you? Who wants a fraud or liar or con-man? Is that why you fear exposure and humiliation so much? Is that why so many of your kind are in prison?

  16. Ann says:

    Edit: I can’t take all the insults you are giving me.

  17. Ann says:

    Would a narcissist say….I cant all the insults you are giving me?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Potentially, but somebody saying that does not mean they are a narcissist.

  18. A Victor says:

    I had 3 months of Golden Period with my ex at the beginning. Then it was devaluation, respite, discard once, hoover, devaluation etc. Then, after 7 years like that, we got married. The first 2 years of the marriage were very nice, given the short Golden Period at the beginning, is it possible to have such a long respite period? Is it common for marriage to cause this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes because it afforded a greater level of control over you and thus you were rewarded with a longer golden period. Do bear in mind however that you may have been devalued during the two year period and not realised it, so the GP may not have been as long as you thought.

      1. JB says:

        HG, can I just ask, how can you not notice being devalued? Wouldn’t it be obvious, a fairly stark contrast from the GP?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The narcissist is cheating on you but you do not know, is one example.
          The narcissist is smearing you to others, but you do not know, is another.
          The narcissist is triangulating you by making complimentary references to other people but you do not pick up on it, is another.
          There are many ways this happens.

          1. JB says:

            Interesting! Thanks for the info, HG!

        2. A Victor says:

          In my case I have thought there was likely cheating going on, he did it throughout the seven years we weren’t married so I wondered how he could just quit doing it for the two years. I wondered even at the time in the back of my mind. Talk about cognitive dissonance, I had such a bad case of it.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I was surprised that you married him despite his cheating during the 7 years before you got married. I can understand, because of the ‘ensnarement’, but 7 years of it?

            One ‘ensnarement’ lasted 8 years but I didn’t know about the cheating until the last 1.5 to 2 years. I suspected but it was not evidenced, apart from the flirting & him bottom slapping her and her asking “Are you & him still involved?”…… RED banner!

          2. A Victor says:

            I’m saddened by it, Asp Emp. There were many many moving parts involved. My guilt from my first marriage, my overly trusting nature, his smooth narcissistic ways and massive amounts of cognitive dissonance all played a part. Add a child at year 5 and (my shallowness is about to show-brace yourself) the fact that he was devastatingly good looking, I was sunk from the start. I would’ve, and did, do anything for him and he knew it. This is why I don’t trust myself and don’t know if I will ever be able to. it is embarrassing to admit now but it is still what happened.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            AV, “a child at year 5”, explains it (during the 7 years). You saying that you don’t trust yourself (I am assuming it’s based on the relationship aspect, also fear of getting ‘ensnared’ again) – that is a consideration from a Logical Thinking perspective where your Emotional Thinking may require further ‘research’ on your part via continuation of your ‘journey’ of understanding narcissism and how it impacts you.

            Apart from being on KTN blog, I found it easier to have ‘almost no contact’ with a small number of people I currently have in my life – so I am not being ‘influenced’ by their opinions or anything, especially in relation to my choice of ‘therapy’ and interfere or compound my ‘journey’ of rediscovering myself. In doing that, to date, I achieved what I needed to achieve.

          4. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, yes, I need to learn more about logical thinking vs emotional thinking for sure. Even if I learn it all, will I even them feel I can trust myself? That remains to be seen.

            I agree about the limited contact, made easier even now by Covid. I am absolutely tired of some responses I’ve received when I’ve shared my journey a bit. Not most, but the ones that do it see much less of me. It is a very private thing and not open for opinions or judgment. It’s why here is so valuable, here we just find support.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            RE: your second paragraph – exactly partly why I avoided (or stopped) talking to friends about my ‘journey’ (therapy) – because I know these friends very well and I know how they think (LOL, maybe I’ve learned too well 😉 ) so I’d rather wait until I have seen them in person (so I can also observe their body language etc, maybe in some cases, see some ‘404’s – not all my friends are narcissists though). On my part, I do not see it as a ‘private’ thing as narcissism awareness is very much needed in this world, especially in today’s society (even more so after the impact of Covid worldwide). I giggled at you saying “not open for opinions or judgement” – absolutely – if people started doing that, then, either they are not friends or not understanding or narcissists themselves……..

          6. A Victor says:

            AE, only private as in my personal journey, much of wish I would not care to share and much of which would not be important to share in regard to spreading the word of narcissism in general. I would feel comfortable to share certain aspects but not necessarily details.

            I agree with your assessment of those who would give unsolicited opinions or judge. I cannot be around them much right now either. 🙂

          7. Asp Emp says:

            AV, RE; first paragraph, I understand. Laughing at how you worded your second paragraph….. but, hey, that is what the Empath’s Grenades are for (unless it’s ‘normal’cos they don’t do ‘404’s…… laughing)…… seriously though, I think I no longer know what a ‘normal’ person is any more…… hilarious!

          8. WiserNow says:

            A Victor & Asp Emp,

            A Victor,
            You have explained, openly and honestly, the factors that influenced your instinctive thought processes: guilt, trust, cognitive dissonance, a child, plus *his* narcissism.

            Add the very pertinent fact that your very first primary caregiver – your mother – was a narcissist. The person from whom you ‘learned’ instinctively about how to attach to other people, was a narcissist.

            As an empath, I can imagine that you already do, however, you don’t have to feel sad and embarrassed about *your* actions. It wasn’t your fault. You were ensnared by a manipulator. This manipulator actively wanted to control you under false pretences. Even though he was good-looking, you were likely highly susceptible to this because you were conditioned *from birth* to attach to this type of character.

            I am really so, so tired of seeing empathic ‘victims’ blamed for being ensnared, blamed for staying, blamed for getting married, blamed for walking, talking and breathing . . .

            But let’s hear it for the narcs and their twisted ‘logic’. . . aren’t they just perfect specimens of human kind?? Let’s all model our behaviours on being lying, cold, empty, soulless, heartless, hateful, entitled, unaccountable hyocrites and users. What a great world that’ll make 🙄

            (Rant over.)

            Asp Emp,

            We live in a world that is generally subconsciously (or consciously) ‘proud’ of narcissistic traits. There are self-help books on how to ‘win friends and influence people’ etc, the world’s richest 1% are glorified as heros and role-models even though their irrational obscene greed is making life increasingly difficult for the remaining 99%, the climate is suffocating under the pressure of human selfishness, etc etc.

            Rather than blaming empaths, isn’t it time for the narcissists of the world to “require further ‘research’ on your part via continuation of your ‘journey’ of understanding narcissism and how it impacts you” . . plus how narcissism impacts all the rest of the world too?

          9. Asp Emp says:

            WN, thank you for your response. RE: “you were conditioned from birth to attach to this type of character” – that is something we all need to remember and understand about ourselves, as ACONs.

            Your words “blamed for walking, talking and breathing” gave me a giggle (my brain wiring responding).
            The self-help books are probably written by narcissists 😉 In my opinion, if people do not like me, that’s their problem, not mine.

            RE: your last paragraph – the ‘normals’ being the largest group of the population are the ones that need to sit up & listen to people like us and learn about narcissism, then the ‘normals’ would also learn to understand that there are groups within society that have different perspectives on life. In an ideal world, the ‘normals’ would start learning about narcissism and then effectively affect change ie not vote for narcissists to rule the world. Alas, not an easy task…….

          10. A Victor says:

            Normals annoy me.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Yeah, they’re boring as fk…..

          12. A Victor says:

            Boring and quite not willing to learn, in my experience. Or if they do, they’re not willing to use the learning in any productive manner. They really frustrate me, they don’t “hurt” us but they also don’t really want to connect in any real way either. Annoying. I think I like empaths best. But, that is a bit frightening as I fear there may not be many empathic men around, are they 50/50, as narcissists are, and also, can I see them as non wimpy (forgive me any empathic men reading this, I know you’re not, I’m not either, but it still is a fear I have.)? Narcissists have that confident leadership that I am so drawn to that I fear would be not visible, at least at the outset, with an empathic man. But, that is for another day. If there is one for me somewhere, I’m not ready yet anyway.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            AV, if ‘normals’ are not aware about narcissism, how can they learn about it? In my view, ‘normals’ do connect in their own way (from their perspectives).

            As for empathic men – I am sure there are plenty of them around. I suppose it is a matter of recognising them. I think you’d be surprised, empathic men are not always ‘wimpy’, there are some, like me, that are ‘ballsy and mouthy’ (laughing) and still have strong characteristics – including those who have a big heart, that can truly care and love someone, there are some that can be ‘silly’ (fabulous sense of humour that is well above the ‘norm’ and idiosyncratically crazy), there are some that have masses of confidence about themselves. They are out there, somewhere.

            As for a relationship with a ‘normal’, they’d need to obtain a degree in psychology (in my opinion 😉 ) and also learn everything ‘narcissism’ from HG’s work. I wonder if the Narc Detector would suffice as a means of testing the ‘normals’ knowledge about narcissism?

            You saying about narcissists and the confidence leadership – hmm, well, from what I gather, narcissists ‘hone’ into targets (victims), that exude confidence in order to obtain ‘character traits’. Why would narcissists have a need to do that? Why do narcissists have a need for ‘fuel’? Why do narcissists have a need to be in ‘control’? It is not about confidence, it is more like the opposite. Narcissists ‘showing’ confidence is a front. In some way, some empaths may also do the confidence ‘fronts’.

            Ok, I am copying & pasting part of my comment to Jasmin via ‘The Geyser Empath’…. “Before I ever met Lesser & MR, I ‘found me’ again (regained confidence, became stronger within myself etc). Since I remember how I was before, during and after being ensnared by the narcissists of my past and now realising it is all because of my addiction and life-long ensnarements (with a break in between narcissist relationships !!)” – it was partly my confidence that attracted these guys to me, the Lesser even said “I wish that I could possess you” – which is (in my view) exactly what a narcissist wants (but they don’t realise it consciously) – I don’t believe the Lesser actually understood why he said those words, I suppose it was an instant ‘instinctive’ blurt out (if you can understand what I mean).

            Because I had these ‘breaks’ in between narcissist relationships with those guys, I was not under their ‘influence’, it’s basically exactly how HG describes it – an addiction – that, in my case, dissipated over time because there was No Contact. My emotions also had been massively ‘eroded’ by then and ended up in my Supanovas, ah bless, I scared them narcissists because they had never experienced my anger to that extreme level (I am actually laughing as I type this – because it was deserving).

            You saying “that I am so drawn to that I fear would be not visible” – is showing the level of your ET and also possibly your ‘addiction’ to narcissists (because of the ET level). You will get there in time. You are doing ok, just hang in there and continue on the path of your education. Have faith.

          14. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, “…there are some, like me, that are ‘ballsy and mouthy’…” – are you…a guy? If so, I apologize for not realizing sooner! 😳

            “that I am so drawn to that I fear would be not visible” – you think this is showing elevated ET? Interesting. I will consider the possibility.

          15. Asp Emp says:

            AV……. ‘Any Hole Will Do’ springs to my mind when I read your first paragraph (laughing)….. No. I am 100% female of the homo sapiens. Unless I have been totally and utterly brainwashed to think I have always had a dick !!!! (laughing)….. having said that, I do not belie the fact that it appears my ‘balls’ are bigger than some men’s balls….. purely based on my ‘attitude’ alone 😉 I am not in the least offended, I am highly amused. I am still laughing…… after all this time, AV?!

            I felt ‘invisible’ during the period when my emotional empathy was at all time low (the ‘erosion’) and when my self-esteem had been almost ‘wiped out’ because of the combined narcissists at work and intimate relationship (occurring at the same time), because I was not believed, nor heard by other people in higher positions at work who are not narcissists. Other non-narcissist colleagues did not have ‘power’ because it was quashed by the higher-ups.

            Sending this comment forward, still muchly amused 🙂

          16. A Victor says:

            Oh wow Asp Emp! I’ve been scouring the comments looking for this!! I was so worried I hadn’t said it correctly and you had been offended, or that HG realized my comment might be offensive and not chosen to post it. Anyway, thank you for having a sense of humor, I was 99% certain that it was the wording, I mean, we have “talked” a lot and I’ve never wondered before…not that I would care but it’s just nice to know who you’re talking with sometimes, you know? Your response is hysterical! Pretty sure there’s been no brainwashing, think someone would’ve let you in on it along the way had there been, haha. And I have no doubt about the the size of you “balls”—laughing!

            As to the other, I have lived much of my life feeling invisible. There are times, not common, that I am happy for it and even use it. There are other times when I just chalk it up to people’s rudeness. I think it was a large part of why I drank when I was young, it made me feel like somebody. But what I was trying to say in my comment, I should’ve used a comma I think, was that narcissistic men have such a leadership and confidence about them that draws me to them. Even if an empathic man had these qualities, would they show at all at the outset? If not, would I be attracted to them? But, it wouldn’t matter, I am going to make friends first going forward, so if they have the qualities or not it likely won’t matter.

          17. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I can always wear the ‘strap-on’ version and forget to take it off!!! 😉 Gawd, walking around town wearing it……. laughing…..

            RE: drinking, I now realise that my mother did (initially my father’s passing) drink as a ‘coping mechanism’ because of her narcissism. A nasty neighbour I had also drank – a lot – he had a tendency to re-write history, go figure.

            Narcissists instinctively seek ‘victims’, partly because of the character traits, I am recalling HG’s video ‘Character Acquisition’ as I type this. I understand that the EDC / TDC highlights the strengths / weaknesses in order to assist those with opportunities / threats in the future (using the S.W.O.T analysis method) to become ‘weaponised’ and recognise when the Emotional Thinking can be ‘activated’ for the wrong reasons because of the addiction to narcissism.

            I think, as time goes by, you may find that the way you view things now may change in future.

          18. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp,
            What is S.W.O.T.?

            I hope how I view certain things changes!

            A strap-on…around town…? Bwaahaahaahaa!!!

          19. Asp Emp says:

            AV, SWOT = Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats. It’s something my supermarket boss taught me.

            Yup – around town……. can someone get arrested for that? I’ve no idea…… always one way to find out LOL.

          20. A Victor says:

            Hahaha!! I can see the headlines, and the pictures on the news!! Hahaha! You might have a 404 look on your face!

            Thanks for the S.W.O.T. definition, that’s good! Sounds military.

          21. Asp Emp says:

            Having said that AV, maybe I should change my username to ‘Buster’ because I just remembered ‘Buster Gonad’ from Viz comic that I used to buy in my late teens (so very long time ago!!!). Laughing…… again……

          22. A Victor says:

            Hahahaa, thank you!!!

          23. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            From what you have said, empaths need to learn about narcissism and normals need to learn about narcissism. Because both those groups need to “learn to understand that there are groups within society that have different perspectives on life”.

            Since ‘normals’ won’t ‘sit up and listen’ until they are personally affected to the extent that they can’t shift the onus onto anyone else, that means things will get worse before they get better.

            So, the only segment of society that is off the hook with regard to ‘learning’ about narcissism is narcissists. Well, that’s convenient for the narcissists. They get to do whatever they want because it’s everyone else’s responsibility to understand ‘their’ perspective.

            In your opinion, should narcissists ever be held accountable?

          24. Asp Emp says:

            WiserNow, I have to admit that your third paragraph wording gave me a giggle.

            In my opinion, narcissists should be held accountable.

            However, since the Lesser / Mid-Range narcissists are not consciously aware of what they are and the Greaters are aware – the latter will always mentally calculate their ‘plausible deniabilities’ and more often than not will re-write events / history as a means of asserting their control, even after their control has been threatened (or sometimes, before their control is threatened).

            And, no, I am not saying RE: “So, the only segment of society that is off the hook with regard to ‘learning’ about narcissism is narcissists. Well, that’s convenient for the narcissists. They get to do whatever they want because it’s everyone else’s responsibility to understand ‘their’ perspective” – unless they are tied to a chair and interrogated ! I am thinking of scenes from ‘Casino Royale’ 😉 and ‘Clockwork Orange’ – where Alex, the character is forced to listen to Ludwig van Beethoven. My, my narcissistic streaks coming to the fore here (laughing).

          25. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            “…unless they are tied to a chair and interrogated!”

            …or alternatively in real life, charged and imprisoned under ‘coercive control’ laws; voted out of government; divorced; fact-checked; or ignored… 😉

          26. Asp Emp says:

            WN, yes, there is always that…… thank you 🙂

          27. A Victor says:

            WiserNow, once again an uplifting comment! You are very good at those! I actually added a question yesterday to my list of questions to ask HG, is he ever surprised by what we accept, tolerate, justify etc from them? I expect he is not. I am, of course, and I believe, given that people expect us to walk away, many are surprised and, not understanding how narcissism works, pass judgement on us. They are likely some of the same people who give out the bad relationship advice. Also, in addition to my mother, I also had a narcissist for a father, haha, I was sunk before I started! Yay for HG and narcsite or I likely still would be. Anyway, thank you again, your comment made me happy!

          28. WiserNow says:

            Thank you A Victor, and you’re welcome. Thanks for the kind words.

            I’m sorry you also had a narcissist for a father. That’s a double-whammy. Well-done on surviving that and for still being a friendly, open-minded person who is willing to learn about their perspectives. It’s a credit to you 🙂

          29. A Victor says:

            WiserNow, good grief, now that comment makes me cry. I don’t feel comfortable at all with that amount of positive response, it is amazing how it affects me. I do not feel it as well-done, it was only what had to be done, there was no other option. Please understand, I am not upset by your thoughts, just not comfortable with seeing them or thinking anyone thinks them. I don’t know how to explain it better, I am sorry. I am not anything special, I just didn’t have a choice. We all here are surviving, hopefully to thrive as we are able. This is an emotional response to your very kind comment. I hope it is understood as it is meant. Thank you.

          30. WiserNow says:

            A Victor,

            You’re very welcome.

            From my point of view, I see your comments here and I see that:
            – you respond to everyone who comments to you (sense of accountability and decency)
            – you respond politely and truthfully (sense of honesty, truthseeking and decency)
            – you reply to fit in with the conversation and the commenter, whether it’s funny, serious, etc and regardless of what you may feel about the commenter’s views (sense of tolerance and open-mindedness, justice and emotional empathy)
            – you are friendly and personable (sense of accountability, decency and emotional empathy).

            I’m using HG’s method of demonstrating specific traits, but it’s with a twist, showing the empathic traits instead of the narcissistic ones 😉 (HG, take it as a compliment.)

            I do understand what you meant and thank you also. By the way, I think you did have options, but your genetic predisposition combined with environmental factors meant that you became an empath. That means your ‘coping mechanism’ was *very* resilient and also socially pro-active. Bonus!

            Joking aside, thanks for your comment A Victor 🙂

          31. Leigh says:

            This is where my narcissistic trait of pride kicks in. You are kick ass! You survived two narcissistic parents and you still turned out empathic.. You’re a good egg! Take pride in that. I always think to myself, not even two narcissistic parents were able to take me down! I’m unstoppable and so are you!

          32. A Victor says:

            Same Leigh. I agree one hundred percent. Thank you.

          33. A Victor says:

            Oh, haha, I was coming off another thread, didn’t realize where we were. But, I still agree, I just don’t feel comfortable with it in writing!

          34. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, I know this is going back a ways but your second paragraph, “…not evidenced, apart from the flirting & him bottom slapping her and her asking “Are you & him still involved?”…this has made me giggle every time I’ve come across it here since! How is that NOT evidence??? ENORMOUS RED BANNER!!! I have appreciated the giggle every time!

            Like the time I came across the card under his bed, and STILL believed him!!! We have got to wake up, you and I both!!

          35. Asp Emp says:

            AV, that was the only one time when I actually saw anything as “evidence”. I was surprised TBH as she was a ‘downgrade’ from me. He’s the ‘sock and talc’ guy BTW.

            I don’t need to ‘wake up’, I am already there. I no longer have emotional thinking over the past narcissists. I just continue to share on this blog so that others who start on their journey, or already on their journey – it may trigger a memory or help someone in understanding from another’s view.

          36. A Victor says:

            Ah, I wondered even as I wrote that, you are already there, so glad for you. That gives me encouragment that I too can get there. I do benefit from your continued contributions, very much. I apologize if my incorrect assumption offended you. I should have not put you and I together in that spot, you have been working on things longer and are already where I hope to be at some point. Thank you for addressing this so I can learn from it. I find it a balancing act quite often, to know what is appropriate to say and what is not. in the past I would just not say something. Some of the work I’m doing here is to try to figure this out. I never want to offend though. One thing I have really enjoyed about our interactions is that they are fun quite often. It has made a space where you’ve been able to say some things to me that could’ve been hard to hear from someone else but from you they were fine. But, within that there is fine tuning and I crossed a line, I am sorry to have done that and grateful for your response pointing it out. I will be more careful going forward.

          37. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I am only around 4 months ‘ahead’ of you joining KTN. I need to reiterate to you, you can say anything you need to say – to me. No need to apologise at all. I totally understand what you mean ” to know what is appropriate to say and what is not”. I am one of those that just says it, missing out the P’s and Q’s (LOL). No, I don’t think you should be mindful when it comes to saying something that you need to share. We have talked a lot on here and it does help to see another’s views because it also contributes to more ‘lateral’ thinking. Thank you for “It has made a space where you’ve been able to say some things to me that could’ve been hard to hear from someone else but from you they were fine” – I know I can be blunt (sometimes too blunt for some to take) but I sussed that you are one that does take things on board to consider for yourself in your own way. You have never “crossed a line” with me. I have always enjoyed our interactions – even if some of them were way above “normal”. (The Witches of Eastwick springs to mind 😉 LOL ).

            AV, don’t feel you have to change how we have communicated on here. I know I am a sassy smart-mouthed madam (LOL). It’s fine, AV. Relax. I’ll still be here, supporting you as I do….. and tell other people off 😉 (LOL). I still luv ya, AV x

          38. A Victor says:

            Aw, thank you. I’ve been waiting all day for your reply, hoping I hadn’t offended you. That was the best, sweetest way you could have possibly said all that, it means a lot to me. I have not found you too blunt ever, too funny sometimes, I can’t catch my breath for laughing sometimes!! Lol!! And I have really enjoyed that! Also your serious side has been amazing and appreciated. Luv ya too Asp Emp!! 🙂

          39. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you so much 🙂 Nobody can ever be “too funny” !! Not even when you piss yourself laughing and then you can laugh some more 😉 x

          40. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I’ll let you know if I agree if that ever happens…laughing!!

          41. Asp Emp says:

            PML 😉

          42. A Victor says:

            Hahahaha!!!

          43. Violetta says:

            I think what we resent about Normals is they are often unwitting enablers of Narcs. They don’t see what they are dealing with, can’t believe it if they haven’t encountered it before, or just don’t want to get involved.

            What is interesting is how a Normal with some power and some savvy copes. I believe HG has said the Queen is a Normal. She may not be able to accept the truth about her husband and at least two of her sons, but I think she smoked out Markle very easily. Her statements, diplomatic on the surface but with hidden barbs that many Americans won’t get, have been masterful.

            Fellow narcs Charles and Piers are limited from effective countering by their own Narcissism.

            Empath Diana would have gone hysterical as usual, at least at first, although it might be fun to see her eventually go Supernova on Markle’s @$$.

          44. A Victor says:

            Violetta, you hit the resentment aspect on the head.

            I love the Queen’s “barbs”, the ones I catch which is not many, she is so diplomatic and yet hits the bullseye every time.

            I wonder if Harry would even be married to Markle if Diana was still here. If anyone could’ve influenced him against it, she would’ve been the most likely, I think.

          45. Asp Emp says:

            V, I honestly don’t believe Diana would have even let MM get near Harry, never mind ensnare / marry him!! Diana going Supanova on MM – that was funny.

          46. Violetta says:

            Asp Emp:

            I agree that Markle wouldn’t be a problem if Diana had lived, as much because Harry wouldn’t be as vulnerable to her kind without the trauma of her death as because Diana would have actively prevented Markle’s Ensnarement attempts. The trauma of the divorce wasn’t sufficient by itself; even if Harry had grown up still siding with his mother against his father, she wouldn’t have retained status as an unblemished idol. William was just old enough to begin resenting being caught in the middle. But death made her a martyr, and now Harry keeps symbolically trying to.”save” Diana by protecting Markle and the kids, as HG has pointed out.

            We can only wonder what Harry might’ve been like if Diana lived. Still “stepping out” with actresses as Grandpa put it, but marrying a Sloane Ranger? Going for less conventional girls, girls who combined breeding and a creative bent, like Chelsy and Cressida, but with Harry less likely to drive them all away with puerile antics?

            I doubt he’d have been seriously tempted by someone as low-class as MM. Though as far as class goes, he’d have done better with a barmaid from Stepney; at least she’s understand English culture.

          47. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, I agree with what you have said – sound ‘explanations’. RE: your second paragraph….. remember Diana was ‘dating’ Dodi, so she would have maintained within the ‘elite circles’ so Harry may have had a better choice from that circle. I think Diana would have remained true to herself despite her ‘halo’ being slightly bent 😉

            Laughing….. barmaid from Stepney…..

            Yet, it still goes to show how someone like Harry can be ensnared by a narcissist. Ah, well, we will have to keep watching ‘that space’ and see what transpires…..

      2. A Victor says:

        I have wondered about that, being devalued but not knowing. Thank you for the reply.

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