You’re Always Flirting

141 thoughts on “You’re Always Flirting

  1. Truthseeker6157 says:

    Hey Asp,

    I did look up Alexithymia. Interesting. I can imagine it relating to Autism as it seems to concern the ability to name and recognise emotions as opposed to not possessing emotions in the case of the psychopath and not being able to access emotions as is suggested for narcissism. Emotional disregulation for secondary psychopaths rather than a recognition / display difficulty. I think it’s somewhat of a breakthrough finding as far as autism is concerned and I note it isn’t in DSM5.

    I am finding more information about psychopathic traits and trait combinations now. Originally I found mostly behaviours. Machiavellian traits are linked more closely to the psychopath rather than the narcissist. They relate to manipulation and planning and as such I can see why they don’t fit unaware narcissists. They would fit greater narcissists but these are the minority. All psychopaths carry Machiavellian traits and to varying degrees. So it appears to go hand in hand with psychopathy.

    I think a Dark Triad questionnaire would also need to measure strength and rate of occurrence as well as whether a trait is present. A little like the trait detector. An individual might carry all of the narcissistic traits but if used in a healthy way and coupled with higher empathic traits they would be an empath not a narcissist. There must be numerous trait combinations for empaths and similarly narcissists and psychopaths so a Dark Triad questionnaire would need to look at trait combinations and relationships, you would assume anyway.

    In some ways I think Middle Lesser B might also carry psychopathic traits due to lack of impulse control but I’m not going there haha!

    I can see why you would approach your personal research in the way you did. Lists of traits, ruling in and out. I think that approach would certainly rule things out and bring you up close to understanding more about where you sit on a spectrum. I also score quite highly in Machiavellian traits, my other traits are likely just stronger and activate more often.

    I agree, HG does decide what he shares with us and doesn’t share, as we all do here on the blog. He does invite us to try to understand him and his motivations better through KHG and I too have read that material. I think looking at the psychopathy aspect might help me to look at the various articles with different eyes.

    HG is not all one thing, like the rest of us he will be a mix of numerous traits, some more prevalent than others. Whilst I can’t know what that means exactly because I only see what he allows us to see, I still see some value in understanding more about psychopathy. I only get half a picture otherwise. Traits are the way forward. Xx

    1. Another Cat says:


      “Traits are the way forward. XX”

      Many psychologists and psychiatrists in my country agree with this notion about exhibiting traits rather than being a certain personality type. They see “personalities” as a circular explanation and somewhat pseudoscience.

      “You act X-ish because you are an X”.

      The philosophy of language and semantics…

      But reading HG’s books and articles makes me feel it’s really both. “Both particles and waves.”

      And I’m not sure traits are thoroughly explored by scientists, knowing that narcissists are Superb actors and what is perceived as empathic behaviour might often be a golden period, a show-off in front of examinators/cameras.

      Regarding the concept of psychopathy I only heard that they don’t feel fear and are not startled. But otherwise I don’t know any difference between them and narcissists. Like you, I get the feeling they are either greaters or lessers, not midrangers.

      But something between behaviour and personality, yes, traits is a good idea.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Another Cat,

        Thank you for your comment. That’s interesting, a trait approach as opposed to a label approach. I think that’s more helpful in many ways but similarly I can understand people do like labels, something to identify or not identify with and the ability to say “ You are like me.” We are pack animals it’s a basic way of ascertaining sense of belonging I suppose.

        When I think about HG’s accuracy when it comes to empaths ( because I understand that better) his approach is based on both traits and behaviours. Yes we get a label in terms of school and cadre because we need something to relate to but one Saviour empath is not identical to another. There will be slight differences, due to trait strength, life experiences, patterns of behaviour etc but a clear tendency towards specific schools and cadres.

        Looking at interchangeable traits and behaviours would facilitate a far greater accuracy. I learned yesterday that psychologists group all people on a spectrum but based on 5 traits only. These are really group headings for numerous traits. Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism. So psychologists do use traits, it’s just when looking at narcissism and psychopathy we tend to hear more about behaviours.

        I feel like Im getting closer in my overall understanding, I just won’t be accurate. Very difficult to gain accuracy too as by their very nature narcissists and psychopaths are not going to be overly forthcoming with their innermost thoughts and feelings. I really do think we have more in HG’s comments and articles than most psychologists would have through a research study! I would just like to be able to interpret them better.

        Good to hear from you Another Cat xx

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS & AC,

          Thank you for both your views.


          “Traits are the way forward”.

          More or less what I have been saying for some time. Look beyond the ‘labels’ at look at the person for what they are – characteristics that makes up the person’s ‘identity’ if you will.

          Now. What is the quandary that is the issue here?

          No system available in ‘real’ terms because there are too many around and people that do not have the faintest idea of where to go first – they may go to their doctor. But we have seen that even doctors can get it wrong.

          People as individuals can also get it wrong – why do I say this? Prime example, a narcissist ‘senses’ that they view things differently, let’s say for example, an MRN may have started looking online and says to themselves, I think I have Bipolar but they are reading it from their ‘understanding’ but they still go and tell other people I am Bipolar. They are not going to necessarily say I have had an official diagnosis as such.

          Having said all of above. I did actually voice it out around 6 years ago around a table of health care professionals etc – I said that the NHS are missing a system that would make it easier to diagnose people in a more accurate way. Laughing, at the memory of their faces in reaction. No-one actually said anything in response. Probably too shell-shocked? My Machiavellian trait came to the fore. LOL. (fk em). A psychologist was present!

          Hmmm, I am just wondering whether I should make an appointment to go and see him actually! I’ll ask a friend to see how I go about a fast-track route. I can ‘feign’ ignorance instead of being the smart-ass (laughing at the thought).

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            I’m afraid I’m the wrong one to ask on this. My view of the NHS is wholly negative.

            1. There aren’t enough doctors let alone good doctors.
            2. You can’t get an appointment to see the doctor. They prefer to fob you off online or via a 10minute phone call.
            3. If you do see a doctor and fall out of the range of normal physical ailments such as a cough or a broken arm, you are largely screwed as they often have no where to refer you.
            4. If you do manage to get referred, then go back to step 2.
            5. Locally to me all therapists are private. Often the doctor doesn’t even have an up to date list of private specialists / therapists.
            6. The NHS works for common physical ailments and catastrophic injury or illness. That’s it.

            Accessibility is the biggest problem the NHS has in my view. Until they fix that nothing else will work in terms of frameworks for supporting mental health or psychological disorders.

            Am I bitter? Oh yes.

  2. Duchessbea says:

    For the more discerning empathic person, if you have never heard of/or were aware of a narcissist, the one thing about them when you do meet one who is flirting with you, is that this amazing, incredible, gorgeous person is brilliant, you cannot get enough, but somewhere deep within you, something is telling you that something is off. You just don’t know what.
    A narcissist will come on very strong, all over you like a rash. You cannot move left, right, front or back because they will be there. Everywhere. At first this seems brilliant. You have met Mr./Ms. Perfect. But as everyone here knows, it’s just off. Too full on and too into you. Alarm bells start ringing, quietly at first and then after a while on a loud shriek. You start to distance yourself. Narc is still chasing. You pull back even more. Narc tries every game plan ever invented. After some time you GOSO and go NC.
    Then Narc decides to turn up at your place of work, waits by your car. (Flirting, I think not). You go for a run in the park and return to your car to find Narc parked in the same car park and he is standing by your car holding a baseball bat. (A turn on – No.) His idea of flirting – quite possibly. Certainly one way of trying to break no contact.
    I cannot comment on the Greater, but I imagine their game to be slicker and more refined.
    When you become aware of what you have been ensnared with, you will spot the future narc immediately as their playbooks are basically the same. When those Red Flags start raising – Run. Don’t look back, just keep going.

    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Duchessbea,
      You’re absolutely right, they’re always in your face…… wherever you go …..surprise surprise

      These are General Flirting signs I found :-
      They’ll make prolonged eye contact
      They’ll make physical contact
      They’ll ask more in-depth questions
      They remember every little detail
      You detect romance in the air
      They give you lots of compliments
      They make you laugh
      They tease you
      They send cute emojis
      You have their undivided attention

      Funny, this sounds like the Narc check list to me
      After your hooked, they then proceed to make you jealous and it’s downhill from then on
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Duchessbea says:

        You are so right. Word for word, narc check list for the flirting signs are spot on to a T.
        Everyday is a learning curve.
        Best DB

      2. Another Cat says:

        Bubbles, darn right.

        “Dearest Another Cat,
        A decent husband does not threaten his wife or put her down.
        That’s not love AC”

        I talked to her about this only once, back in 2020 early pandemic. He once gave her silent treatment for three weeks, which of course resulted in her taking care of exactly everything with the kids, cooking, work, planning with nanny. They went to family therapy back then, but the problem is the same today.

        HG’s instructions that we mention it once, in a clear manner. Then it is up to the victim to decide. We can accidently push that friend away if we’re feisty on the issue.

        I’m so happy that she is finally planning on leaving him.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          Not to mention the impact his behaviour has on the kids …… they see and hear everything!
          What kind of man does not talk to his wife for 3 weeks ? A bad one and childish!
          It’s disrespectful, degrading, treating another as if they are of no consequence or worth, its truly despicable.
          This whole attitude, I’ll show you, I won’t talk to you, how dare you treat me like that, I’ll make you sorry, you’ll pay …….. definitely no love there…. it’s all power and control! What gave him the right to do that ? His narcissiscm !
          Trouble is, if they do it once and get away with it, they’ll do it again n again n again because they know you’re not serious. No amount of counselling will fix this. What a horrible nasty vindictive man
          Normal couples have tiffs and some sulks, however we hug, kiss, make up, say sorry then move on. If we happen to require some counselling, most often, both are willing to work on it and progress is usually made.
          She doesn’t need him. The sooner she leaves the better.
          Why be unhappy ?
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Bubbles says:

            Oops sorry…this was meant for Another Cat 🐱

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, I may be another cat purring, licking claws clean, as I do 😉

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Hahahahaha 🐈
            All my comments automatically include you my lovely floof ball
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, ah, thank you, you sweet woman. Floof ball……laughing……Miaow miaow…..purring even more now…..laughing….. x

      3. A Victor says:

        Dear Bubbles,
        That is an amazing concise list. Thank you for this comment, another post it note is going up.

  3. Joa says:

    I like flirting … with narcissists. I like spicy jokes with “trusted” ones. I do not see anything wrong in it.

    At the right moment, when it can get too hot, I can step back and give the STOP command.

    There are individuals that are less learned, more insistent, or try to offend. I avoid these. I kill with my eyes before they get close.

    Subtlety and limits. Even narcissists understand what they can.

    Flirting with “my” narcissist – always metaphorical. Full of devaluation, resistance. You run – you chase, you chase – you run away. You dominate – you give up, you give up – you dominate. Only him I allow myself to be offended.
    I adore.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      “I kill with my eyes.”

      Haha, yep, commonly known as ‘the death stare!’

      1. BC30 says:

        Wow TS6157! Lots of food for thought. You wrote: “Someone who isn’t seen as part of himself, someone he doesn’t draw into himself. Matrinarc.” That gets to the root of narcissism, as I have read in medical journals. However, Gs are an exception in that they are aware that others are not an extension of themselves. That is quite interesting to me. I tried to imagine what it is like and the closest analogy I can think of it that is must be like driving home and not remembering the drive.

        Side note, I don’t really think of HG as a normal G. So many of my thoughts on narcissism and Gs I don’t apply to him. He often explains with regarding many narcissist thoughts and behaviors that he an outlier.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey BC30,

          I agree HG is an outlier. He recognises motive. I think that’s part of the differentiation. I don’t think Greaters understand enough about empaths to fully recognise motive. In that sense I think HG has more options as regards threat to control. Genuine threat? Perceived threat? Necessity to react or not?

          I think the Greater can elect not to react. He can delay gratification, plan, react at a more opportune time. I don’t see the Greater distinguishing as much between genuine and perceived threat based on the motives of the empathic individual they are interacting with.

          If you can recognise that the threat to control isn’t real, it’s based on the condition of narcissism, and you have a firm hold on the ignition of fury that the perceived threat creates, then essentially, you have partial control of the narcissism. There would be massive advantages to that. Relationships with the IPPS would be more sustainable, greater continuity, less risk of serious wounding, less need to find and ensnare replacement IPPS’s, conservation of energy, time and resource as the narcissist ages etc.

          The fact that Greaters recognise that others are not an extension of themselves could be down to psychopathy? I don’t know if all Greaters are also psychopaths. Or at least, have more markers for psychopathy. Psychopaths function differently. There are no internal objects, only external objects. The psychopath doesn’t see people as extensions of himself at all. This is what I don’t understand. How the two conditions can exist in one person. They are fundamentally different. I wonder if a narcissistic psychopath is predominantly psychopath with additional behaviours / drivers that are narcissistic. Rather than being equal part psychopath narcissist. Could you therefore have a psychopathic narcissist? The emphasis being placed on narcissist with some psychopathic behaviours?

          I wish I had listened better in school. Haha! ‘Truthseeker likes to socialise’ was on most of my report cards.

          HG is in a unique position as regards his understanding of empaths.
          He readily admits that the blog and good doctors have made him ‘ more effective’. I don’t believe that that relates only to ensnaring victims, he was doing just fine on that score to begin with. Place that flawless understanding of empaths into the context of the Prime Aims and control seems the most impactful benefit. Controlling outwards, but maybe also controlling inwards.


          1. HG Tudor says:

            Interesting and valid observations.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you HG.

          3. A Victor says:

            TS, I think the biggest hindrance for “Relationships with the IPPS would be more sustainable, greater continuity,…less need to find and ensnare replacement IPPS’s” is possibly the fact that the malign thinking and behaviors exist for greaters, including HG, it is what sets them apart from the Lessers and Mid Rangers. Do they care about maintaining anything long term? I don’t think it’s a concern for them. And I think hunting new victims could prove quite stimulating for them, that the boredom factor, that need for something to happen, for some change, some newness, wins the day, for many of them at least. And I think HG is a part of that group, I mean, how many IPPSs has he had? So that even with the hold on the ignition of fury, the desire to let the fury go, and see the results, may be too strong a temptation, at least at times, meaning there is still no real control on the narcissism. And I believe LET is correct when she said HG can’t change because he can’t see any reason to. He is perfect as he is, efficient and effective, what change would improve on that?

            I am fascinated by the psychopathy/narcissism mix/balance as well, I hope we get to hear more about that in time.

            I don’t like thinking that HG is still part of Matrinarc, I feel like that is a reflection of all ACONs with regard to their narc parent(s). But in reality, I think we all are part of our parents, for better or for worse, they influence us throughout our lives, whether by rejection of them or acceptance of them. I don’t think that is something we can escape but I do think normals and empaths can recognize it and where it is negative make a choice to minimize it’s impact, learn new ways of thinking and doing and strategize more. That is what I am endeavoring to do here and it has given so much clarity. I do not know if narcissists would have this ability in the same way, I think probably not, otherwise HG and all the other would be able to change, which would start with seeing the need to, and so on.

            Well, this comment of yours was the one I had been looking for, now I can go do some other stuff. Have a wonderful Saturday!

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            Yes the malign and Machiavellian aspects exist with the Greaters and the Ultra. Their awareness facilitates planning and they take pleasure in controlling the pieces on their respective chess boards. I don’t think malign behaviours are done for malign’s sake though. In fact I don’t think anything is done just for the sake of it. I don’t think there is an overwhelming and calculated desire to be cruel as such. I think it’s responsive. Seen as just another weapon in the artillery. There to use if needed, another method to assert control and draw fuel. No conscience to prevent its application. Conceivably, as they choose to use it, so can they choose not to use it.

            Do they care about maintaining anything in the long term? I would say yes, if it serves their purpose to do so.

            Currently I agree, HG has had plenty of IPPS. No problems at all in securing them. Simple and “it’s scary how similar it all is.” No matter how fit, how attractive, how moneyed, how charming, no one can stop the clock ticking though. At some future point it will not be as simple to acquire a replacement IPPS. The ageing process is inescapable and will impact the fuel matrix as a whole. This is before we consider societal and technological changes and those are definitely on their way.

            I think there is adequate motive to amend behaviours if that facilitates greater future stability within the fuel matrix. A bit like wealth management. HG will plan financially for his future. If fuel is your life blood, then I have to assume he is planning his continued fuel supply also. Why waste time and energy replacing an IPPS if you could ensure the continuation of fuel from the current IPPS? What would it take to ensure this continuation?

            Fury. I don’t see it as an advantage. It’s an instinctive response brought on most often through wounding, which for the most part is caused by misinterpretation. The incorrect perception of a threat to control. If you are aware of this perception, can separate perception from true threat, then there is less need to respond.

            Ignited Fury poses a risk to the narcissist. Potential damage to the carefully maintained facade. Potential escape of the IPPS. Ignited fury is therefore a risk factor. The fewer instances of ignited fury there are, the more stable the narcissist. Here the understanding of the empath provides a very distinct advantage. I can’t see how the ignition of fury is anything but destabilising. I can’t see it as enjoyable at all. Essentially, it amounts to an internal loss of control. It serves HG’s purpose to have full control of his ignited fury.

            I’m still thinking about Matrinarc and how she is viewed. My instinctive view is that the external world is drawn in to the narcissist and Matrinarc is kept out. The false self acting a bit like a porous boundary.

            I don’t disagree that narcissism is incurable. I think that HG has options to manage it more effectively. Exactly what those options are is pure speculation on my part. Xx

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, yes, everything that motivates in any direction is only that which will bring the desired outcome, including preparing for the future, we see that with the Legacy, blog etc. I was thinking that the “fun” obtained from some of the malign/Machiavellian behaviors being a driver at times, not necessarily only with regard to the IPPS. I believe HG has indicated here on the blog that that is a driver for him at times. I think the upper echelon narcs in particular have such a propensity toward boredom that such fun is required at times to stave boredom off, still motivated of course by what brings the desired outcome. I cannot imagine that HG will suffer the effects of aging for a while yet, to cause what is happening currently to motivate toward that end, except as his preplanning. In other words, I don’t think he’s yet at the point where he deems it challenging to obtain a new IPPS, not that his motivation for doing so at any given moment is here or there, that again would depend on the needed/desired outcome at that time. But yes, likely at some point there may be some changes to accommodate aging.

            Yes, I see what you mean about the fury. I have thought HG has virtually complete control of his, or at least of how it is allowed to manifest. This is where my thinking that using it on occasion might be seen as a benefit, but it would be a choice, not just a reaction, if that were to occur. And I don’t know if that would be “fun” for him/other narcs or not, just was a consideration as to how he might fulfil his desire to be malign at times. I do think that is an actual desire at times, for the “fun” of it, realizing they don’t likely experience fun in the same way as we do, for them it is always with a purpose.

            It is interesting to read other’s views on Matrinarc. I am likely seeing that from my perspective, not a narcissist perspective. My matrinarc is kept out of everything but influences a lot, sadly and somewhat inescapably, though I do think I have more options to change that than narcissists do.

            I love speculating! I am an idea person, love it!! Thank you for your reply, more food for thought! 🙂

  4. Asp Emp says:

    I never did when I was in a “relationship”, I am loyal to the person I am with.

    That Lesser accused me of such “flirting” – on a number of occasions, usually when we were out with a group of people we knew. The worst time was when it was my birthday and less than a year later, I was out of a job because of his son-in-law. Yet, it was ok for the Lesser to flirt with all and sundry and do you know what? I never accused him of doing that. Why? Because I knew how he would react.

    That is a Lesser narcissist for you. And that is a ‘put down’ to the Lessers from me because they have no ‘finesse’ – only capable of dragging their knuckles on tarmac (laughing).

    This video gives very good and different examples explaining the behaviours of the narcissist and also the narcissist’s girlfriend, in a similar public setting. I liked the descriptions of the assertions of control and when these would be ‘applied’ within the different ‘scenarios’ between the narcissist and the girlfriend.

    I have to admit, I was giggling throughout this video because of the descriptions of the behaviours from both people. Yet, narcissism is not funny.

    1. A Victor says:

      Asp Emp, today for fun I asked my daughter if she or her husband flirt with other people. Before I even finished the sentence, she made a face and was like “Ew, why would we?” I thought that was interesting. I have never seen my married daughters or their husbands flirt with anyone but each other, I have seen that, it can be quite funny at times! I am beginning to believe I enjoy the “thrill” more than have a “need” for flirting. But, if it can be brought around to a place where it is really not fueling my addiction or anything else nefarious, I will enjoy it, at least within a relationship. Your first sentence made me think of all this.

      Also, you mentioned somewhere that we can still have a LOCE even as adults. That is an excellent observation and really hit me today, thank you. Now to reprogram some more!

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AV, I used to flirt when I was a teenager. But after my first “serious” relationship and being naive, him and his too-friendly line manager, their affair, cut me deeply – more than the other ‘cheaters’.

        Interesting choice of word “thrill” – now, if you ‘translate’ that, it could be how fuel receipt feels like for a narcissist?

        Yes. We certainly can have LOCE as adults. Glad that you understand that and that you can put it to good use, for yourself. 🙂

        1. A Victor says:

          Asp Emp, I am sorry you had that horrible experience. I think when we are naive and that is tarnished, it can be the most hurtful. I think that is part of the reason this education has been so hurtful for me, I had lived naively for many years, not understanding that people can be very bad. I don’t like knowing it even now.

          I think thrill is different, for me at least, than fuel for a narcissist. I don’t “need” it or seek it incessantly. It’s more of a chance opportunity and it doesn’t keep me going in the same way, it’s more of the moment, if that makes sense. But, the actual physical sensation may be similar, who could ever know? That is an interesting thought.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            AV, ‘pain’ is one of the earliest things we learn as humans but it not necessarily make us more ‘immune’ to it as we process through life. I suppose being here can give us some understanding about how we manage it – by applying the methods that is suggested in relation to ET and addiction to narcissism. In my view, the ‘principles’ are the same – learning to understand our emotions better through understanding how we look at ‘pain’ regardless of what caused it ie deaths.

          2. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, you are correct. I think I have wanted to become immune to pain, I am a wimp through and through. But, better to become stronger and deal with it, go through it, whatever, than to live only a half life in an attempt to avoid it. Yes, “learning to understand our emotions better through understanding how we look at ‘pain'”, very good thinking. I was wrong a few months ago, I thought my grief for my dad was done, it was mostly, but there is now a settling in phase, still can be painful at times but also coming to terms with the fact that he is really gone. That has taken a while to really sink in. Going through that grief has been a good exercise in getting a better understanding of my emotions. I am most thankful to have been here for it, I can’t imagine what kind of basket case I would have been without the blog to process my thoughts, and without all of you.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            AV, it is understandable that you will find processing your emotions because you have more to ‘navigate’ with your grief too. It is in some way, too soon on that alone. You have a lot to process. So give yourself some credit. Grief is different to abuse. You having to separate the two and yet both are a result from the same person which can ‘confound’ it in some way.

            “Basket case”, oh, AV. Choice of words made me giggle. Yet what we have had to go through is not funny. I think sometimes you may have an emotional ‘block’ that comes and goes? It did take me around 40 years over my father to ‘unlock’ the pain. I do not think it would take you that long. Do you talk about it with your kids?

            Sorry for the late reply. Computer Said No, that’s why I didn’t see your response. 🙂

          4. A Victor says:

            No problem! I don’t worry when people don’t reply, I can’t always either. Sometimes I just need to think about the reply and it can take a while. Other times, technical issues or time isn’t available.

            Your reply is uplifting, thank you! I will not concern myself that some things are not resolved yet re my dad/grief. And work instead on separating grief from abuse. I do have emotional blocks!! I only started feeling emotions, and very scantily for many years, 20 years ago or so. They have picked up so much since being here but thankfully I don’t cry all the time, often spontaneously, anymore. I feel like my emotions have been awakened since being here, it is good.

            I don’t talk about much with my kids about any of this, only as they ask usually.

            Thank you for your reply, good to hear from you, as always. 🙂

          5. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I asked about whether you talk with your kids because, surely, it can help you (and them) in understanding yourselves and narcissism better? Or do you feel that it is because you are ‘mum’ to them? It is not just talking about narcissism that can help a family like yourselves?

            Likewise, RE replies / chatting with you too 🙂

          6. A Victor says:

            Well, in order to keep the ANC going, I don’t discuss TTU or the other narcs, unless asked or if I’m in a very bad place and one of my kids is nearby. But even then, I have been working to keep it as short as possible and it has been working pretty well. It is best for me this way, not to dwell.

            I do discuss narcissism with them, I generally wait until they bring it up, and a couple of them do. The two who have been involved with narcissists, or currently are. But, I have found that if I bring it up, they are often not in a place to hear it and it backfires. So I wait. It is very good for us to be obtaining the knowledge, on so many levels.

            Thanks again!!

          7. Asp Emp says:

            AV, you do not necessarily need to talk about your narcissists, just the subject in general? And other subjects ie gardening etc. 🙂

          8. A Victor says:

            Oh yes, that happens whenever it is a natural addition to the conversation. But, I still have to be careful, they seem easily overwhelmed. I understand it to a degree, I would have likely blown it off before arriving here, Summer narc etc. But, it does happen here and there. 🙂

  5. lickemtomorrow says:

    I still can’t bring myself to listen to this one. F*ck, I hate triangulation.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      LET, this video, in my view, is not about triangulation – I know HG has done a written article on the blog about this but I cannot remember (sorry, HG) the name of the article itself.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Well, that will likely prompt me to listen to it now. Thanks for the heads up, AspEmp.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          No worries, LET 🙂

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        AspEmp, you’re right. This is not about triangulation and the way the narcissist uses that to create insecurity as a means to gain or maintain control. It’s kind of the opposite of that. Here the narcissist accuses us of being the one to create insecurity in him as a means for him to gain or maintain control. Once again, it’s all about control.

        I have had this experience, and some of the accusations were actually laughable. At least from my perspective. And we are talking perspectives here. The best one was being accused in relation to a former love interest (plenty of flirting there) when I wasn’t involved with my last narc and while he was still in the background. He literally pulled that out of the hat when I confronted him about the ‘absolute final straw’ triangulation which ended our relationship. I couldn’t take him seriously any more after that. His ‘in your face’ actions while we were in a relationship were being compared to my flirtations with someone else prior to our relationship beginning. Unbelievable.

        I, too, love to flirt. Innuendo is a thing. And it can be fun. The difference is likely in the fact we are never in a secure relationship with a narcissist, so there is no safety or sense of boundaries. The limits are constantly being pushed. Which means we don’t know what they are and fall foul of the narcissist’s accusations and projections.

        On the basis of these, I cut myself off from others. I wanted to reassure him. How could I prove my love? Now that’s laughable when I think about it.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LET, I take it that you did listen to this video then? Yes, it is perspectives. All over. Innuendos? What’s that? Laughing.

          Yes, the narcissist does create ‘divisions’ (isolating) between you and others – whether you do it unconsciously or not. Narcissists in my past had a ‘thing’ for their car, I had no idea until I came to KTN site that it is ‘triangulation’ – at least a car moves and can be ‘controlled’, compared to a fridge anyway 😉

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Lol to what’s innuendo, AspEmp 😛

            I consciously separated from other people, holding that relationship above all the rest. That is what a CoD does. In many ways it’s an all or nothing scenario. We give up so much for the narcissist and often are prepared to do anything to accomodate or even remain in the relationship. It sounds extreme, but it very much forms part of the addiction. We are lost and we are broken. The narcissist finds us and in some ways does what empaths also do, which is ‘fix’ us. We see ourselves and our beauty reflected in their eyes. And fall in love with ourselves. Though we don’t know that at the time. We probably begin by feeding eachother’s narcissistic needs, considering as the child of a narcissist we were also denied the love we deserved. In the moment we fulfill eachother’s needs. And then it all turns sour. Because no one can live up to the idealized image forever. From my perspective, as majority CoD, we will continue to try, and if that means separating ourselves from others then we will do it. Sadly. The need is so great, until we heal those infantile and childhood wounds, that the addiction will continue to overwhelm us. It’s something that needs to be understood in terms of escape from the narcissist, I think. There is often deep seated wounding which may not even have been recognized or acknowledged. Give me all the understanding in the world, but if that original wound remains it’s going to be hard to make the break. At the same time making the initial break, in terms of escape, gives us the opportunity to stop any further wounding and allow the healing begin. It can seem like a Catch 22 to the empath who does not want to endure anymore pain or suffering. I imagine the only way to even consider it is to hear the stories of others who have benefited from the break and begun to truly love themselves, rather than accept the false love of the narcissist.

            And triangulation with objects is also a thing. There are many ways to be triangulated. With causes, with objects, with others, with pets, with work, etc. Never underestimate the power of triangulation when it comes to the narcissist. I’m sure the narcissist doesn’t.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LET, for years, I have used the words “It’s all or nothing” (and did with the MRN) because of the experiences I had in my life. I would even go as far as to say, it is probably similar to a narcissist’s instinctive ‘mindset’.

            Oh, dear! “We are lost and we are broken. The narcissist finds us and in some ways does what empaths also do, which is ‘fix’ us” then the narcissist ends up doing more damage than good for us empaths. At least we know now, why its important to understand the new ‘carousel’ of ‘addiction’ (golden period / ensnarement) is not what it seems before the carousel turns rusty and broken – just like us. That is also why it seems that the empath and the narcissist have things in “common”, well, in fact, they do. Yet, it is one where an empowered & educated empath can learn to ‘break’ the cycle so to speak.

            The ‘wound’ that you speak of, will always remain but it can be ‘looked’ at to understand it and mine has reduced in size, quite a bit as I no longer ‘sense’ it as a wound as such. I think now that I know ‘all about it’, it will be easier to avoid ‘feeding’ it (permit it to increase in size via addiction to narcissism by getting ensnared as such again).

            Maybe Co-Ds triangulate when they are hurt? Like change the subject, or switch their attention to something else? As a means of ‘avoidance’? It may be more instinctual ‘response’ rather than cognitive? It’s possibly similar to how a narcissist ‘responds’ by means of assertion of control?

            RE: “I’m sure the narcissist doesn’t” – they do. Via the source of fuel and by achieving the fuel. That’s why they triangulate / project.

            Again, interesting to read your views on this, LET. Thank you 🙂

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AspEmp,

            I guess “all or nothing” is a good descriptor for the “all in” empath, which many of us tend to be. And breaking the cycle is the ultimate aim of being here. That carousel can be hard to come off due to our addiction, but with the right tools in hand not impossible. Hope exists here. I’m not sure how HG comes to terms with that. Hope is not his thing. Logic is. And he is all about applying the logic. I appreciate that, too <3

            I'm glad to hear you feel your original childhood wound has healed significantly <3 A big part of that for me would be knowing that it wasn't my fault. That there was nothing wrong with me. That the sense I had about my mother was correct. And so on. Knowing that narcissism is a thing and that it has impacted my life in order to wound me significantly. Knowing how that wound occurred which gives me the ability to address it. And as you say, avoid further wounding.

            I'm not sure about your question about CoD's, as in just CoD's or do all empaths at times also triangulate? I think everyone is capable of triangulation as a means of manipulation. Empaths aren't Saints, though we come pretty darn close at times 😉 I know I deliberatly triangulated the last narc during the period of disengagement. I was fully aware that's what I was doing. I don't think empaths instinctively triangulate. And I probably wouldn't call any form of withdrawal a triangulation, even if that means changing the subject or focusing on something else. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you're saying here, AspEmp.

            I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "they do" in response to the narcissist not underestimating the power of triangulation. Do you think they underestimate the power of this manipulation? Again, I might need some clarification around this.

            Our views may have become somewhat lost in translation here, but I'll look forward to any further reply, AspEmp 🙂

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LET, first paragraph – I agree. Second one – good way of thinking RE: “not your fault”.

            What I said about Co-Ds, I was talking out loud, as I used to ‘deflect’ (ie change the subject) as some kind of ‘avoidance’ – not that I know for a fact about my own empath ‘status’ (laughing here 😉 ). Of course, we are Saints, we are ‘Adored and Abhorred’ 😉 I think you have actually understood what I meant, you have answered (thank you for that).

            In my view, with the fact that the majority of narcissists not knowing what they are – how can they underestimate / or not ‘the power of manipulation’? Not many narcissists are actually that ‘clever’ as they do not think to themselves “I know, I’ll triangulate her with my car” (laughing, as it sounds funny). When they have the need to obtain fuel, they’ll do or say something because it is instinct based and not necessarily cognitive. Just like a baby would start crying for milk, not because it tells itself, it is hungry so it will cry to get fed – the brain gets the ‘message’ from the stomach and sends another ‘message’ to the voice, if you can understand?

            I think we are speaking the same language here & it’s always good to talk thoughts out loud 🙂 x

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, curse WordPress and it’s lagging system of notifications 😛

            I’ve just seen this, being diligent about trying to follow up on threads when I can x

            Thanks for coming back to me and helping to clarify. Seems I got some of it right, and I take your point on narcs not knowing for the most part what they are so therefore how can they know they are manipulating? They may not know, but they are aware of the benefits that accrue to them via their actions, which is why the behave that way in the first place. At least that’s my take on it. Much like you describe the baby crying for its milk. If I do this, I will get that. So while it is instinctive, it is still manipulative. At least in the case of the narcissist. The only comparison that can really be made with the baby is the fact that where milk for them essential, fuel from the narcissist’s perspective is also essential. From our perspective we should only be looking to meet the needs of the baby 😉 Even though narcs can come off as big babies, they can look after themselves!

            And it is always good to talk our thoughts out <3

          6. Asp Emp says:

            LET, hello 🙂 Yes, there is issues with WP, it’s not linking at some point(s) – there could be a number rather than just the one issue. Anyway, you got my response and now I have yours……

            I have to say that it is not just narcissists that manipulate instinctively. There are those with lack of cognitive understanding that may do the same thing.

            Yes, it is also good to ‘learn’ from other people RE: thoughts out loud on here. We learn something new, daily. Good to chat with you too, LET 🙂 Thank you for your views.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp, LET,

            Speaking of the similarities between the narcissist and the empath, there is an argument which states that a narcissist is in effect codependent. That’s not to say the two are the same, it means that the narcissist largely behaves in a codependent way.

            The narcissist internalises everything and everyone. This leads to people becoming an extension of the narcissist’s ‘self’. The narcissist has a fragmented and ever shifting ‘false self’ hence the need for repeated character trait acquisition. Repeated mimicry but also repeated internalising. They like the consistency of the IPPS, most of their world is chaotic so consistency in one form stabilises them. The real problems arise when the IPPS demonstrates the fact that they aren’t in fact part of the narcissist’s self. They are individuals or external to the self. This would explain the feeling of betrayal that HG describes. The feeling of being conned.

            The Co Dependent in the purest sense, forms their self by merging with another. The narcissist wants to internalise the co dependent. The co dependent wants to merge with the narcissist. They behave similarly.

            The key and very important difference though, is that the codependent recognises others as individuals with their own needs that are external to those of the codependent. They therefore have a true grip on reality, though they place their own needs below those of their partner.

            The narcissist cannot distinguish between themselves and others as being external to themselves. As soon as the narcissist interacts with you, you are internalised. This I think is what HG refers to when he states that he ‘owns’ us all. The narcissist therefore doesn’t pass reality testing. Alternatively, you could say their reality is different.

            Co dependents and narcissists do appear to be very close to each other in their drivers for intimate relationships, or their needs from a relationship. As individuals, they are clearly very different, one with high empathy, one devoid of it.

            I’m starting to look more at the whys, why narcissists see things the way they do, why they cant be cured etc. I’m reading a lot again. I don’t seem to get bored of this subject. I just shift to a different angle. Problem is there are a variety of conflicting theories and too many angles!

            The real issue with narcissism I think, the reason it’s incurable, aside from the self defence mechanism side, is the lack of a true and concrete sense of self. If you disabled the self defence mechanism so that you could concentrate on the individual, the key issue I think would be that there is no established ‘self’. The true self can’t function on its own, it’s a fragile and infantile personality. The false self isn’t actually set, it’s changing all the time. It really is a chameleon, although in my view, over a lifetime even the false self must have consistent core behaviours, likes, dislikes, etc. It has to, it has to have some recognisable consistency or it couldn’t sustain long term relationships and interactions. It’s almost like I want to say, pick a version, pick a side and stick with that. That’s now you. No deviating, no amending, that’s you.

            Fuel I think you can get round. It’s very like an addiction. What is it really? Praise, emotional content, a reality check to ensure you are still here. You are still here though but you would only truly know that if you could solidify a self.

            Meh, I could talk about this all day. It’s a rabbit hole, but treating the need for fuel as an addiction wouldn’t be a stupid approach in my view. Sorry for wandering off topic, trying to organise my thoughts.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I agree with your suggestion that a narcissist is also codependent, of course they are.

            Interesting you talking about character trait acquisition. I was thinking about this the other night. I had wondered if a narcissist does not let people go (ie ‘The Contract’ for life) is because they instinctively fear that the character traits that they ‘acquisitioned’ would ‘disappear’ should they ‘release’ a person ie a former IPPS?

            I think people sometimes forget that a narcissist (and non-narcissist ACONs) did not have the ‘stability’ of a constance (not just the lack of control) in their childhood – hence the need for a ‘constant companion’. I understand that. I’ve experienced similar. I also have experienced the ‘loss’ of a ‘stability’ ie in past relationships. And it can cause a level of anxiety because with the ‘push / pull’ behaviours of ie narcissists does not give ‘inner’ peace to be able to ‘relax’ within the relationship (stability / security). It’s my mother’s fault that I developed the ‘co-dependency’ and she did nothing to alleviate my grief over the loss of my father – my father was my ‘constant’ and my ‘stability’. I now understand all this about myself, whereas before I couldn’t see it within myself as clearly as I do now.

            In my view, it’s more like ‘being let down’ (failed) rather than being ‘conned’.

            In my view, the Co-D is formed as a child. Just like a narcissist is formed as a child. Hence why they may be similar in their ‘needs’. I have, in the past, put others first, before myself. Sometimes to the detriment of my health. It was not consciously realised until this past year’s learning really.

            Laughing…..”Problem is there are a variety of conflicting theories and too many angles!”

            For many years (and to a degree, even now), I always had a dislike for ‘change’. For example, if a doctor’s appt is not at 9.00am on the dot as previously agreed with me, I expect the doctor to be free to see me at 9.00am (I am laughing here because it comes across as my being inflexible and childish) – but that is a result of inconsistency in my childhood. Anger because I cannot control the doctor coming out to see me at 9.00am on the dot. They are “changing” what was ‘agreed’, without my “permission”. Anxiety, for the same reasons. Because I now realise that and understand why I used to get the way I did, I am aware of it. It seems that I have ‘mellowed’ because it is understanding that it cannot be helped that change occurs. So, having said all of that, maybe that is why and how a narcissist ‘responds’ too?

            Your words “a reality check to ensure you are still here” – it is a bit like a sense of “I exist and why are you not acknowledging that?”. I felt as if I did not ‘exist’ after my father died, because a part of me did as well – all I needed was to be loved, praised for doing something right instead of being criticised, given a ‘pick-me-up’ when I was down. Narcissist mother failed on that.

            Thank you for sharing your views & thoughts, it was good to read, as always 🙂

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, I marvel at your thought processes, TS, which so often match mine, though I’m not sure I could give expression to them as well as you <3. That was a joy to read, as in it was clear to understand and also made a whole lot of sense to me. I wouldn't disagree with anything you said there. Bravo for another well thought out interpretation of both the narcissist's and empath's experience.

            I believe there is a mutual merging between narcissist and CoD empath, and it serves the purpose exactly as you describe. The narcissist is constantly subsuming others into their reality, and CoD's are necessarily drawn to that need to be subsumed, albeit still having a sense of self which aligns them with a reality which does not exist for the narcissist. I think there is an element of all this which has to exist beyond our comprehension because otherwise we, ourselves, would lose touch with reality.

            The loss of the true self leaves the narcissist with no other option for knowing they exist except by the gathering of fuel from others. A CoD seeks to find their existence within that relationship. Not because they don't exist, but because their existence has been made dependent on being an extension of the narcissist from the time they were a child. They know no other way of being in relationship, except to be subsumed. Of course, that does not mean we can't break free of those chains. Which is where the narcissist and empath differ, as you say. One of us can break free – or become less dependant – and the other can't. In that sense, yes, the narcissist is a co-dependant, too.

            I could talk about this all day, too 🙂 Loving the rabbit hole that is narcissism, only because I love to make sense of things, especially those things which have impacted me deeply.

            And the need for fuel is not an addiction. An addiction indicates the possibility of a cure. There is no cure for the loss of the true self. There is only the gathering of fuel in order to maintain an existence which if not maintained would assign the narcissist to oblivion. It's impossible to imagine the depth of that abyss.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            LET, good to read your comment back to TS.

            RE: you saying ” It’s impossible to imagine the depth of that abyss” – quite true, in my perspective, from my own ‘darkness’ – there was so much of it and I had no idea where or how to start ‘looking’ into myself because I did not have access to the ‘tools’ to do so. I know I needed help to ‘reach down’ into the ‘depths’ of myself to start ‘clearing out’ as much as I have managed to do. It is now at the point where there is hell of a lot less than when I started here. That ‘help’ that I needed, was KTN site.

          11. A Victor says:

            Ah, the rabbit hole…haha, makes for a messy house at times!

            Great conversation here to you, TS and Asp Emp, a lot of interesting thoughts!

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for reading and sifting through my thoughts. My partner in crime, always happy to join me on my next jaunt down my next rabbit hole xx. It’s really lovely to have someone who considers what I try to verbalise. I’m always grateful x.

            I agree. Narcissism can’t be cured. But. Haha! I think it can be made less invasive. I think it will have to be.

            HG is clear. Narcissists seek the Prime Aims. Fuel, Control, Character Traits residual benefits. Character traits support the construct that is the false self. They support the integration into society. Residual benefits are as they are. Linked to the sense of entitlement.

            Fuel and Control. We know what they are. We know overall why they are needed. To power the narcissist and to safeguard the construct amongst other things.

            Why though? Two very separate requirements and linked to two separate parts of the narcissist’s psychology.

            Control. To me, the need for control is what can’t really be fixed. If I control you then you stay, you behave as I expect, no surprises, you fit. My needs are met, I feel balanced. If I control secondary and tertiary sources in a different way, I achieve. Like a game of chess, if all the pieces do what I want, then I win. If I am successful and I keep building my tower higher, then I am untouchable. So I need to control you and I need to control my whole environment. I’ll do it from the moment I lay eyes on you / from the very first word.

            When HG writes, there is only one person who stands out as being distinctly separate. Someone who isn’t seen as part of himself, someone he doesn’t draw into himself. Matrinarc. This fits with developmental stages. Babies start to realise they are separate from their mother when she leaves the room. ‘She’s gone, I’m still here, she must be separate to me.’ The first level of separation. HG had no problem establishing he was separate. He will have been left a lot. The narcissist achieves the first separation but then stalls. He never learns to separate from the rest of his environment or people in it. So the external is part of his internal world or essentially, part of himself. As such he controls everything and everyone. When the external demonstrates it is not part of the internal world then this causes internal conflict. The narcissist doesn’t recognise the person. They feel betrayed. This doesn’t fit the internal narrative, so he moves to defend the narrative by controlling the external person. I can’t see how that can be undone. It’s a fundamental driver. It’s a developmental halt. I don’t think that can be restarted as such. For a very aware narcissist like HG, there is some wiggle room. The recognition of what a real threat to control is versus a difference of perspective. Not every perceived threat is a real threat. Control is fundamental though and the need for control from his perspective will still underpin every interaction.

            Fuel. I agree, it’s not an addiction exactly. The narcissist behaves very like an addict though. Similarly the narcissist attributes undue emphasis to the need for fuel. For example. As a smoker puts out a cigarette the nicotine is already leaving their system. As such they are never completely relaxed unless in the process of smoking. The itch is always there. This is chemical addiction. That chemical takes 5 days only to completely exit the system. So, put band aids over your eyes so you can’t find your cigarettes and it’s job done surely? Wrong. The smoker attaches imagined power to the cigarette. It wakes me up, it relaxes me, it calms me. Smoke when I’m up, smoke when I’m down. I can’t cope without a cigarette, I need it to function etc etc etc. This is where the need for fuel is similar to an addiction. Essentially, fuel proves that the narcissist matters. If he matters then he must exist. No fuel, then maybe he doesn’t exist? How is he perceived? What do they all see? All of this is not real though. The cigarette having all of these powers isn’t real either. It’s imagined. It’s the perspective of the smoker / addict. The narcissist will always need fuel. But fuel doesn’t give you power any more than a cigarette wakes you up and calms you down. I think treating the need for fuel as an addiction has a degree of merit in terms of achieving a controlled / reduced dependence.

            An aware narcissist sees no reason to be cured. He is effective as he is. He has no regard for any damage he might cause as he lacks the empathy required to consider it and the narcissism won’t allow the consideration regardless. A narcissist goes to therapy so he can become a better narcissist. Fair play. So an aware narcissist would only attempt to amend his behaviour if he saw a benefit to himself for doing so. There is a benefit though. Times are changing. The young generation is entirely connected via technology. As a result, they are interacting physically far less often. People interact remotely, they look for partners online, they chat and socialise online. That is going to get worse. How long before we introduce VR into our daily existence? Not long now. Electric driverless cars, soon we won’t even chat to an Uber driver. Virtual meetings will become virtual holidays will become, virtual sex.

            What does this mean for the narcissist? I think it means a distinct shortage of proximate fuel. It will be increasingly more complicated to secure a new IPPS. It makes far more sense to hold onto the IPPS once she is ensnared. To do this, behaviours will have to be modified. There is a very real need to evolve and it’s entirely to the benefit of the narcissist to do so. As a knock on effect, prolonged and intensive devaluations might be reduced, golden periods will have to have longer durations as a bare minimum.

            The unaware narcissists will remain oblivious. The future is not looking good for them. The aware narcissists must see these changes coming and recognise the impact it will have on the fuel matrix. They have to evolve. HG’s plan to become more pro social is for HG’s benefit or he wouldn’t be attempting it. That sounds harsh, it isn’t meant to, it’s just logical.

            That’s what I reckon anyway haha! What says you LET ?


          13. Asp Emp says:

            Hey, TS, thank you for your comments, I need to read through them and will offer my thoughts……just bear with me, TS 🙂 x

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, definitely your partner in crime 😉 And this rabbit hole just got a whole lot deeper!

            I can concur with your intial thoughts, and now need to get to the breakdown.

            I would view all the elements separately, but linked. I understand how you’ve broken them down to focus on two, Fuel and Control.

            Control: this element is a necessary part of the defense. In that sense, I agree it can’t be fixed. The reason for this is it’s unique ability to ensure survival at a time of great vulnerability. The narcissist comes to depend on it and it forms part of the defense. Interesting take on primary, secondary and tertiary sources. They must all be controlled, but the most likely to be placed into devaluation is the primary source due to their proximity and importance to the narcissist. More on this later. But while all must be controlled, some are of greater significance than others.

            In terms of HG’s mother, I don’t believe he ever achieved a separation from her, simply because the narcissist doesn’t allow us to separate as children. I see where your thought process is going, and understand the trajectory, but Matrinarc subsumed HG and made him her ‘mini me’, and also the narcissist he is today. We see from articles HG has written that he took the route of emulating her, admired his abusive uncle who was also a narcissist, and yet at the same time he despises both of them. That is because they did and continue to seek to assert control over him. So where you see that as an ability to view himself as separate, I see that as an element of being unable to break free of their control.

            I agree that the outer world is completely subsumed into the narcissist’s reality. This is because of the need for control. I know I told you recently I tried to imagine having control of the whole universe in order to apply an element of control to my circumstances as a child. Where I was unable to achieve this, the seemingly impossible becomes possible for the narcissist. There is no separation between them and the rest of the world, or even the universe. They are the ultimate controller in their world. And I think you are right when you say that any indication of separateness will engender a response in the narcissist as they seek to correct the balance in their narcissistic world. Challenges are not to be tolerated as this means their existence is threatened. I think the only way HG would recognize this is if it suited his purposes to do so. In that sense, he still maintains control. If it suits HG to recognize, in his awareness, that a threat to control can be managed without one of the three assertions, then I think he is capable of doing that. This might be what you refer to a “wiggle room”. It’s in his gift, therefore under his control – still.

            Fuel: I can relate to the smoking addiction and also the psychological power it holds. It’s not just about the chemicals, but the chemicals play a part. At least in order to initiate the addiction. If we are psychologically vulnerable then that’s all it takes. The undoing is a whole lot harder.

            I have to disagree it is comparable to the need for fuel for the narcissist. There is a very real threat to the narcissist’s perceived existence if they are not able to acquire fuel. With no true self to underpin the lack of fuel, the consequences for the narcissist would appear catastrophic. It would not just be a craving seeking to be resolved. It would life or death. I know cravings in the drug dependent could most certainly feel like life or death. There would be withdrawal symptoms, but the body would eventually recover and with the right kind of support potentially help to overcome the issue. It is physical and also psychological. For the narcissist the threat is existential. Related to his existence. If I do not gather fuel I do not exist. Rather than, if I do not have a cigarette I’m going to be frustrated/annoyed/get angry.

            I don’t believe there is any way of reducing the need for fuel, even for a highly aware narcissist which HG is. It is central to his existence. And maybe even more so due to the level of his awareness and the extensive fuel matrix which he operates. Sure, a tertiary or even secondary source dropping off here or there is not going to have much impact. But, they will always be replaced as necessary. Remember the fury that is ignited if HG unexpectedly loses a primary source? This is because his existence comes under major threat in those circumstances. That is the explanation for fury. You are threatening my existence. The only response can be fury in terms of survival.

            The focus on technology is interesting. VR even more so. I do believe it is essentially narcissists who have put us on this trajectory we are on. Simply because of where it is leading, as well as what has already happened. If you imagine that the element of isolation which also accompanies the element of connection, it seems like a narcisist’s dream. No physical contact. No real intimacy. Control of interactions. Definitely could also mean a lack of proximate fuel for some, but I doubt that would be the case for HG. I see where your thoughts are going there, and how for some there might be a need to secure their IPPS as a means of retaining that element of proximate fuel. Certainly Covid has set out the challenges for narcissists in terms of a future which doesn’t guarantee them automatic access to proximate sources. At the same time, where there’s a will there’s a way. I think HG has explained how narcissist’s can operate the varying levels of their matrices to get what they need.

            In all honesty, I don’t see the imperative for HG to modify his behaviour. As much as we might want to believe that is possible, he will not see the need. Which means it is impossible. At least from my perspective.

            So, you have my thoughts, TS 🙂 In many ways they are different to your own, but not opposed to the hopeful thinking you display. I can always connect with that <3

            Thank you for another enlivening conversation and thoughtfest xox

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            No worries. I know, horrifically long comments. I bought ‘Why am I behaving like a narcissist?’ yesterday. You could argue my comments demonstrate a sense of entitlement due to their length. I do consider moderation. Concentrating on a couple of threads only to reign myself in. Xx

            Sorry HG, thank you for moderating me.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            No worries……

            Hello TS. I would ‘argue’ that as empaths, we are all co-dependants? Yes, narcissists too. In our own individual ways. And perceptions. In real terms, as children, we all ‘depend’ on our ‘peers’ (whoever and whatever they are).

            RE: your words “The narcissist has a fragmented and ever shifting ‘false self’ hence the need for repeated character trait acquisition. Repeated mimicry but also repeated internalising” – I am reminded of HG’s ‘The 5 Hatreds Of The Narcissist’ – where there is restlessness; anxiety; panic; ever-present paranoia – hence their ‘need’ for the stability / security? And fuel? And character trait acquisition?

            Part of my ‘co-dependency’ also comes from my being Deaf, so it would ‘add’ to the ‘anxiety / panic’. So if you throw into the ‘mix’ – with a narcissist parent, loss of father – the ‘security / stability’ – ah, well, enough said!

            I needed mother’s “love” yet I ‘sensed’ her as you described “The narcissist wants to internalise the co dependent”, at the same time, I was instinctively ‘rejecting’ it because my ‘inner-self’ sensed her ‘creature’ to the point where I would describe it as a ‘vacuum’ (sucking the life out of me, if you can understand). Hence the sense of ‘disgust’, I would say and also the ‘hate’ that I felt for her. Not because I actually “knew” anything for a fact (until the last year!), that actually makes ‘sense’.

            Maybe the Co-D within me “recognised” my need to be ‘independent’ from the narcissist within my mother? Hence my saying instinctive ‘rejection’ of her?

            RE: your words “Co dependents and narcissists do appear to be very close to each other in their drivers for intimate relationships, or their needs from a relationship” – I would not necessarily disagree with that. Maybe that is what it is, only, in my view, it is not like that when there is a narcissist parent – it is probably like putting two magnets together where there is ‘repelling’ rather than ‘gelling’? Is that what it is for the majority of narcissists in relation to narcissist parents / peers? Yet, none of this is cognitive – you end up ‘not liking’ the person because you cannot ‘gel’ with someone in authority over you?

            When you say “Problem is there are a variety of conflicting theories and too many angles!” – are you referring to on this site? Or somewhere else?

            RE: “This would explain the feeling of betrayal that HG describes. The feeling of being conned” – In my view, it’s more like ‘being let down’ (failed) rather than being ‘conned’. I came across HG’s ‘You Said We’d Always Be Together’ (one of his early articles) – I found it interesting because it gives a little more ‘insight’ and add his article ‘Don’t Fail Me’ to this (previously this was named as ‘Never Let Me Down Again’ – the third part of the song’s words – maybe HG was let down by the same person more than once, because of the same “external influence”?).

            I see ‘fuel’ as a ‘basic human need’ that a narcissist has. Just like us empaths do. It can probably give an indication to the ‘need’ to be ‘acknowledged’ (not being ignored, but to have acknowledgement that they exist) – RE: ‘The 5 Hatreds Of The Narcissist’?

            HG has said something like wanting to be ‘accepted’, to fit in, to be understood as the individual he is.

            I am now responding to your comment to LET on the same part of the thread……(I really do apologise for this HG, thank you for your time on this x).

            RE: what you say about control is “what can’t be fixed” – that is our perception. In the narcissist’s perception, they can obtain it, in their way. I would suggest that if the LOCE is present then they’d “remove” any “obstacles” (whether people or environment – through the 3 Assertions of Control). I would suggest that LOCE will always be an issue throughout a narcissist’s life but that LOCE is forever ‘changing’ hence the need for a ‘bolt-hole’ (their sanctuary / security) to ‘escape’ to and why other people are not “allowed” in their ICE (‘In Control Environment’).

            Maybe the narcissist’s “fundamental driver” is their ‘defence-mechanism’? It is not necessarily a ‘developmental halt’ as such?

            Apparently, it can take 21 days to change a mind-set (‘re-processing’) and 66 days to change a ‘habit’. Yet, when it comes to ET, it takes much longer in the way we are doing it. Because we have a need (or we learn that we have that ‘need’, because of HG’s work / education) to ‘understand’ ourselves as individuals. The Why’s, How’s, When’s,…. the understanding of the past. Once we achieve that, we progress forward with ‘re-programmed’ mindsets & emotions).

            What you said RE: changes to technology = less physical (personal) ‘interaction’ – I wonder, just wonder, whether this can ‘contribute’ to less narcissists / non-narcissist ACONs being formed, so to speak?

            Ok, great to see your thoughts. Thank you, TS.

            HG, thank you. x

          17. HG Tudor says:

            The changing of a habit varies from individual to individual. The average is about 83 days with some people requiring upwards of 180 days.

          18. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, that thank you HG. Hence your suggested ‘time-scale’ RE: our LT “re-training” leading to our ET “re-processing”? I would suggest the length of time would also depend on individuals ‘brain-wiring’ ie other neurological path-ways that differ from those that do not have as such ie Aspergers, or ADHD. Thank you, HG, once again, for your re-establishing the facts that are 🙂 …….. as usual, not factually ‘correct’ as per “internet” suggestions 😉

            And, thank you for moderating my earlier & lengthy comment 🙂

          19. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, “I would describe it as a ‘vacuum’ (sucking the life out of me, if you can understand)” this is exactly what it feels like.

            I think HG did something with regard to screen time and how it affects children/narcissism, I don’t remember where though.

            HG saying he wants to be accepted is the same as me, as an empath. I thought it was that for most humans. But rather than worry about being accepted or not, I largely bow out, it’s too risky and too difficult. I don’t think narcissists have that option. I think their need for fuel is like breathing is to us. I can see it so clearly in my ex when I look back, and also TTU.

            I think I understand what you mean by we’re all CoD as empaths but I have a person very close to me who is a Tudor CoD and myself who is not. We are different, very different, in how we function in relationships. I do not get my self worth from the other person and I only take so much, no more. Not so with the CoD. The good news is that knowledge is key to change, knowledge is power, so knowing the natural tendancies, that person has been able to make some positive chsnges, same as me. I think it is the Super in me that made me recognize that I am a separate individual from my mother, even as a very young child. I have no CoD. I have wondered if you don’t have a good dose of Super. Just a guess of course.

            I am realizing that it is rather incredible that I had two such difficult and often horrible parents and yet it has been such a surprise to learn here that bad people exist in the world. What’s up with that??

            It will probably take me the full year plus to change, it is a lifetime’s worth!

          20. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I have not had my EDC done yet, so I guess, I would have a bit of this and a bit of that. Certainly have some CoD, how much of it, is another guess. We, are, effectively doing a life-time’s worth of ‘change’ within our minds by being here. I already knew that ‘bad’ people exist, through mother and that Lesser.

          21. Asp Emp says:

            PS, it is so good to read that you have had your consult with HG. There was nothing to fear, was there? Now, that you’re recommending people to have consults. I am glad you crossed that ‘bridge’ so to speak 🙂

          22. A Victor says:

            TS, “You could argue my comments demonstrate a sense of entitlement due to their length.” Oh dear. Thank you for this, I had not thought of it. I do consider moderation though. Yay on doing the consult!! Happy for you!!

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think you’re right. As empaths we are all CoD to varying degrees as far as narcissists are concerned thanks to our addiction.

            I’ve read that children with disabilities have different needs as far as separation and adaptation go. (The Four Stages of Adaptation). I didn’t realise there was a difference between physical and psychological separation, or how early damage can be caused by the mother leaving the child for even a short period of time. Having a narcissistic parent doesn’t bear thinking about in that sense.

            In terms of theories and how they hang together. I don’t trust the view points of other commenters. Only HG reads as consistently honest. I might pick up a reference or a theory from elsewhere but I then research the theory / concept itself. All sorts. Object relations theory, ego, psychological defence mechanisms, psychological boundaries, secure and insecure attachment styles are a few of the concepts I am reading about. When placed in the context of narcissism, then narcissism and psychopathy together, some conflict, some seem to hang together.

            I think empaths like positive fuel to an extent but the reason we don’t need it, so our appreciation of positive affirmation is different to the narcissist. We also all operate a false self to an extent, just not to the extent of the narcissist.

            I can appreciate that LOCE gives rise to control sensitivity for the narcissist. I think control links in also to lack of a definitive self. Also internal and external objects. The narcissist has an internal narrative. We all do. Normal people tell the difference between internal and external objects. If something doesn’t fit the narcissists internal narrative though then it needs to be made to fit.

            I think the driver is control, caused by LOCE, leading to a halt in developmental separation, leading to internal / external object confusion which then causes an overriding need to control so that the idea of the omnipotent false self is corroborated.

            False self occurs through LOCE but I think it’s often more systematic abuse based. It’s based more on repetition. Abuse leads to the psychological defence mechanisms kicking in. One is dissociation, one is the amending reality to lessen negative impact. Abuse, dissociation, creation of a protecting identity. Repeated abuse, repeated use of protecting identity, dissociation becomes fixed through repetition. Grandiosity rather than control being the foundation of the false self, with control over everything and everyone ensuring the continuation of the false self.

            I see aspects as separate but linked I suppose.

            Fuel I see as addiction above all else. Habit is part of an addiction but an addiction in my mind is grounded in a false belief. So a smoker has a cigarette because he’s sitting in the garden as he does each morning with a coffee. That’s habit. Remove the habit and you still don’t remove the belief that the cigarette wakes you up and gets you going. Power still rests with the cigarette. The smoker remains addicted until the reliance on the imagined power of the cigarette is removed. It’s why ex smokers are miserable. They break the habit but the belief still remains. There is an inordinate amount of emphasis placed on the necessity of fuel in the narcissists mind. I see that as addiction based. I understand the fear element, the panic of ceasing to exist. Panic though is also part of addiction.

            What if the narcissist retained control but didn’t require fuel? I suppose that would make him a psychopath! Haha! Freud just turned in his grave and cried a little bit.

            Always interesting to hear your thoughts Asp. Xx

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            Thanks for the PS x. Yes, it went well. It’s important to me to stress that the ‘fear’ element was never anything to do with HG as a person. At all. I have never imagined him to be anything other than professional in consultation. It was to do with my inability to share personal information. I didn’t want to be asked a question and be in a position where I refused to answer it. Again, that has nothing to do with the person asking the question and everything to do with the person answering it, or not, as the case may be!

            A very close friend told me once that people feel closer to you when you not only listen but you share your own problems too. I decided to excel at listening!

            Your point about whether technological advancements would prevent more Narcissists being formed. The conditions for narcissism would still be the same LOCE and genetic predisposition, so likely not. I think you will see far more LDE’s and the arrival of the SDE! Unaware narcissists will struggle with what amounts to a permanent lockdown.

            In terms of the Greaters, you would have to assume that the IPPS will have more fuel providing emphasis. If she provides 50% of the requirement now she’ll likely need to provide 70-80% of the fuel going forward. The ageing process will feed into that too. She’ll be higher value and tougher to replace. The size of their fuel matrix will likely be similar, they might even broaden it, it’s just that within it I think there will be far less proximate fuel available. They’ll have far more lower potency fuel. The logical solution would be to become less fuel reliant. Or, become less reliant on negative fuel in order to maintain a steady supply.

          25. Asp Emp says:

            Hey, TS. I have just seen your replies to me. “Computer Says No”. Ho hum.

            Am I to assume that you didn’t have a narcissistic parent by your words “having a narcissistic parent doesn’t bear thinking about in that sense”?

            We can take our own interpretations on what we read from other people. Yes, accept HG’s words as ‘gospel’ but have your own interpretation on it. As long as you stick with your own understanding about yourself, that in my view, is the most important thing about being here.

            Have you done any reading up on alexithymia? That was interesting. It may give you an insight from another angle. Not necessarily related to narcissism, or ACONs. There are other ‘conditions’ that have similar characteristics to those with narcissism and ACONs, hence why it is important to get the right diagnosis. Even though I was diagnosed with Aspergers, no-one ever said you are partly the way you are because of the abuse in your life.

            Do you know how I did it, on myself? I looked at the traits of Aspergers, compared them to traits of empaths and compared both lists with narcissism. I actually also looked at sociopaths and psychopaths, disassociation PD. Then it was a matter of looking which characteristics were ‘left’ over and that I did not have. So, I guess, I am a mixture of a lot of things…..let’s not make me easy to understand, eh? 😉

            I did this before I joined KTN. I had ruled out my being a ‘formed’ narcissist yet I still questioned myself on that, because that is what my learning did – it was the ‘re-programming’ getting a bit ‘cross-wired’ during the process (and that fooking little alien, ET) LOL. Some Apsergers traits were similar to empath traits… yes, there are some similarities.

            Hmm, interesting choice of words….”I think empaths like positive fuel to an extent but the reason we don’t need it, so our appreciation of positive affirmation is different to the narcissist. We also all operate a false self to an extent, just not to the extent of the narcissist”.

            I also experienced that….” I think control links in also to lack of a definitive self” because of my Aspergers.

            Where you mention ‘disassociation’ – that would also fit in with CPTSD because of the repeated abuse.

            RE: your words about ‘fuel’ and it being addiction based. I understand your thinking. However, I mentioned alexithymia for a reason. They cannot learn to experience something that they do not have, at all. They can read about it. Yet, they will never know what it is like to actually experience it.

            RE: the consult you had…” It was to do with my inability to share personal information”. I understand that too. Not because it was HG you were talking with. I find that with anyone I don’t know well, ie the nurse who assessed my Aspergers.

            What I said in relation to the ‘formation’ of LESS narcissists / non-narcissist ACONs – maybe it could, effectively create MORE narcissists – again, that depends on the LOCE. What is more, maybe it could lead to more narcissists but ‘evolving’ differently in some ways to the ones we know of through HG’s work. Why do I suggest this? Because if narcissists are needing ‘fuel’ through interactions of people but similar to what they would have been ‘forced’ to do in the Covid Lockdowns? We have seen what HG had to say RE: the Covid responses of narcissists (their behaviours), including his video ‘A Very Lockdown Narcissist’.

            Am I to assume the ‘SDE’ is the slutty dirty empath? Laughing……

            I usually start with Wikipedia when researching something about neurological / human psyches. Yes, some brain ‘training’ can happen, some remains impossible. That is a fact. Just like you cannot teach a Deaf person to hear fully. It’s impossible. Hearing aids? Ah, another matter, bet they were designed by a hearing narcissist LOL.

            Interesting to read your thoughts, TS. Thank you.

            Thank you, HG, for your time x

          26. Truthseeker6157 says:


            The comment about my long comments indicating sense of entitlement. That’s based on my not being currently romantically ensnared and also not having any narcissists in my life full stop. Technically you could argue I shouldn’t be here. Or, if I am, I shouldn’t take up the moderating time that I do as I wander down my various rabbit holes! I certainly don’t view other commenters in the same way. Just me!

            I recognise that our moderator is a narcissistic psychopath. If he had an issue with my comments then I’m sure he wouldn’t be backward at coming forward. That’s kind of comforting actually! That said, I do try to self regulate but I find the whole subject so interesting I can’t help but set off on something else to do with it!

          27. A Victor says:

            TS, I disagree. You belong, it is a public place for anyone who wishes to learn about narcissism. You have a unique perspective to offer, a victim who is not an ACON but who has been ensnared. I can stand to learn from your outlook, for example, I’m getting back into golf, because you worked out with me that this was a good way for me to possibly meet a nice, normal man. I am most excited by this, have already been working on making it happen, I don’t do anything too quickly as there is not enough time in my day for work, this blog/learning about narcissism, and fun stuff. Hahaha!! That is my life in a nutshell!! I am laughing right now! It is a relief to know that HG will stop us if he feels he must, it allows for a certain freedom, I agree. Also that it is a fascinating subject, the rabbit holes are deep indeed.

          28. Asp Emp says:

            AV, your words “rabbit holes are deep indeed” made me wonder and I found that the Nile crocodiles dig the deepest – apparently, up to 12 metres…….

          29. A Victor says:

            Wow! The rabbits are racing ahead of those terrifying creatures?! More power to the rabbits! Interestingly, this makes me think of empaths and narcissists….

            On a side note, that summer narc learned early on that I have a thing about alligators and crocs. At the time I had no idea they use your fears against you. But two months in, that’s exactly what he did. It was a big enough red flag that it got my attention. But to see that played out so clearly, more confirmation, as if I needed it, that what I experienced and what HG teaches are really real, there’s no denying it. Anyway, thanks for that piece of info, interesting.

          30. Asp Emp says:

            AV, that is why you should not tell a narcissist your weaknesses (phobias). Alas, we all know now.

          31. A Victor says:

            Yeah, 20/20 hind site!! Nor should we be talking to a narcissist!! At least for me!!

          32. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I have learned that we should not tell all about ourselves so soon, no matter who it is – narcissist or not.

          33. A Victor says:

            Me too. But then I’m left wondering what we will talk about, if not ourselves? I am super crappy at small talk…😢 and I hate it so it makes it difficult to want to learn how to do it better.

          34. Asp Emp says:

            AV, invite your kids to dinner – cook for them or go to another place where there are no narcissists around? You can open the conversation by saying, I know I am ‘mum’ but I can see that you are grown ups now, so we can do more ‘adult’ talk. And add that you are not used to talking with them as adults so you find it a struggle at times? Nothing wrong with being open with your kids. They may open up more to you too. It’s not really something you learn, in my view, it is about crossing that bridge so to speak. The environment needs to be right too. 🙂

          35. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I think we miscommunicated, I don’t struggle at all talking to my children, only people I don’t know well, and sometimes even good friends. Like if I don’t share with the narcissist, especially if they’re askingweirdoquestions (look what my autocorrect did, hahaha) what will we talk about? That’s my concern. Not with a narcissist but with a non narc person.

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you so much for considering all of that. Summarising my thoughts back to me and adding in your own views helps me see where the faults are in my thought processes x

            It is interesting that you imagined having control of the universe. That’s what having full control must feel like to the narcissist. Control provides so many things, continuity, stability, power amongst other benefits, or rather, effecting control does : causation. If I cause this then it’s proof I exist. If there’s a tennis ball unmoving on a table and I do nothing I don’t have proof I’m actually here. If I push the ball and it moves across the table then falls to the floor then I am probably here because I caused it to happen. Control is based on causation. Fuel I think is confirmation / affirmation of my causative (that’s a word?!) action. It’s only fuel if the narcissist causes it.

            You’re exactly right, with no true self to underpin a lack of fuel the narcissist in effect ceases to exist. If I roll the ball off the table and it falls to the floor that’s good enough for me! I don’t need you to witness it. Therein lies the difference between us and the narcissist. The narcissist requires you to say “Why did you do that?” Or, “Nice shot!” Only then does he definitely know he exists. Control and fuel are separate but inextricably linked. HG even rolls them together when he recites the Prime Aims.

            As BC30 pointed out, you have the various categories of narcissist, then you have HG. For the purposes of clarity, I’m thinking about HG’s awareness, his mix of psychopathy and narcissism and his forward thinking plus his unrivalled understanding of empaths when I’m looking at what room to manoeuvre he has. That’s why I’m trying to overlay psychopathy and narcissism together.

            I don’t believe HG wants for one second to be ‘cured’. I think instead he will always want to be at his ‘most effective’. That doesn’t have to have negative implications for those around him either. I see it more as a win win that’s within his capability of achieving but only due to the unique awareness he has. Sadly I don’t think what he achieves would be transferable to narcissists as a group.

            So the main issue we established is definitely lack of a defined sense of self. I see your point about fuel being less of an addiction. The threat is existential as opposed to emotional / psychological. I did go full on bat shit crazy when I tried to give up smoking the first time. Panic is a good way to describe it. I didn’t think I would cease to exist though. It also wasn’t linked to any form of control. So they are different as you say. I still haven’t taken addiction off the table in some ways though. I still see similarities. It’s a false fear in both senses. If HG didn’t get fuel because he lost control of his entire fuel matrix, he would not cease to exist. His heart would not stop beating. His world as he perceives it would cease to exist. In effect, we are talking about a full nervous breakdown. Not death. The sun would still rise the next morning. I’m not underplaying that, I’m not brushing aside how catastrophic it would be, but if I’m being unemotional and wholly clinical then the existential fear that is experienced there is actually a false fear.

            HG does have flexibility within his own specific narcissism and thanks to his higher functioning and his understanding of we empaths. I’m just trying to fully understand exactly how much flexibility and trying to estimate how this would work plus how it could be used both to his benefit and to the benefit of those who care about him, namely, SM.

            I’ll think some more about matrinarc. I do think she is viewed as separate. Although in HG’s case I think there is recognition that people in general are separate, there is still an overriding need to draw them in to himself though. More calculated, more controlling as opposed to an unawareness of them being separate. HG took character traits from Matrinarc, he wanted that power for himself. I do feel that his view of her is different though. He distances himself, he’s wary, he doesn’t draw her in, he keeps her out.

            More time down the rabbit hole required I think! Thank you for listening and adding in your thoughts LET. Reigning me in as I go off in different directions haha! I do love our conversations. Xx

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I enjoy reading your thoughts and never think of it as much as a ‘fault’ as an ‘untangling’ … at least that’s what I do <3 Thinking, in that sense, is a process. It can never be 'right' or 'wrong', just a means to get us to the place we are going. Some of our ideas could be faulty, mine included, but thinking out loud, or discussion, is the way we sort that out xox

            I never contemplated that experience of wanting to control the universe before I got here, and then only more recently has it come to mind again. It would sound f'king weird to anybody else if you were to say it to them, but in this context it seems relevant and I definitely remember it being attached to the need or desire for control. Somehow, I was trying to bring exterior elements into me as a means of having power or control over them. HG is right when he says CoD's are failed narcissists. It's the first time I can truly see the reality of that. What was achievable for HG was not achievable for me. This could be down to lacking the genetic component, which means if I'd had it maybe I would have succeeded. And maybe that's where my Super element comes from as well. Still a mystery to me.

            Cause and effect is interesting where you link it to control. If I base it purely on my own failed experiment of control, I have to be the ultimate causative agent, so whether the tennis ball moves or not, I am the cause. There is no question of my power or authority in that situation. It's a total fallacy, of course, but a total reality for the narcissist. Not quite sure how you tie that in with fuel, but I think I get the gist of how causing a reaction in effect generates fuel for the narcissist and is also proof of them exerting control in a situation. It's a very interesting take on the narcissistic dynamic and perspective.

            I think you are correct in saying the narcissist requires that response in terms of fuel … as in it would be pointless for him to carry out an action and not get some feedback for it. That would not fufil the Prime Aims or the need for fuel. And it would also not affirm their existence. Which is what fuel does. It powers them. Maybe we could take the analogy of a vehicle. Without fuel the vehicle would not have the power to operate. It would still exist in a physical sense, but to all intents and purposes it becomes inoperable without fuel. This means it also becomes redundant. This is the existential crisis I am imagining for the narcissist who is unable to obtain fuel. While they may still physically exist, as in a vehicle may still exist without fuel, the lack of an underpinning sense of self will create a crisis for the narcissist. Because they derive their sense of self exteriorally, not interiorally. They can't dig inside themselves for what is required, the same as a vehicle can't fuel itself. The narcissist relies on those around them to derive their source of power, or fuel their tank if you will. That is why it's a matter of whatever it takes to get what they need, and if they don't get it from you they will get it from someone else. We are just appliances, as HG says. Or gas pumps on the highway, as I like to say.

            I saw your thoughts on psychopathy and trying to layer that on I think could be extremely difficult. Not sure how many Degrees we'd need, but I doubt there could ever be enough 😛 I have read somewhere else that all psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths. I think one key difference is a lack of fear in a psychopath. HG says he doesn't experience fear. But survival is a thing. It must be more instinctual. Less instinctual is the need to create a legacy. Which is the reason we are all here 🙂

            HG does not believe there is anything wrong with him, therefore there is no need for a cure. Makes sense from his perspective. If I treat the subject with the bloodymindedness that it deserves, then there is no hope. Negative consequences be damned. That is not the narcissist's issue and they are never to blame. They have no accountability when it comes to consequences. That's one perspective to take. Seems to be realistic if I adopt a completely cynical view of narcissism and any ability of the narcissist to change. Heightened awareness, in the case of HG, could potentially cause him to reconsider how best to meet the Prime Aims with less negative consequences for himself and others, albeit it will always be a manipulation on his part and that needs to be accepted. He is doing it for himself, not anyone else. Still sounds too harsh for an empath, but HG would likely say "suck it up, buttercup", it is what it is. The jury is still out on this one for me.

            I do take your point about addiction having similarities, I just don't think we can downplay the existential nature of the crisis for the narcissist. Definitely can relate to the sense of panic as it relates to needing that next cigarette and not having one to hand, though. If we can identify that, then we can have some small sense of what a lack of fuel might feel like to a narcissist. They need their next 'fix', no matter where it comes from or how they get it (e.g. positive or negative). I also hear you on the 'false fear' you think is engendered by that need. As in the actual being or person would still exist in the event of an existential crisis for the narcissist. I probably answered that in the earlier part of my response, but the need and fear I agree can also be equated to an addiction as one way of understanding how it might feel. The actual reality of dying because you can't get a cigarette is likely to put the thinking more on a par with how the narcissist might experience the inability to acquire fuel – their lifeblood.

            Thoughts about Matrinarc are interesting. I didn't want to go down the object constancy route because that is complex and can be hard to understand. Albeit it is what apparently leads to the black and white thinking. Matrinarc is painted black. She is bad. That is how I would perceive HG's position on her. I don't think it has anything to do with being separate in that sense. Remember, we are extensions of the narcissist. As children this is also the case. They do not see us as separate individuals. It is still possible to separate, as a clinging to the real self for emapths indicates. I'm not so sure that the narcissist, with a lack of the same underpinning (of the true self), is capable of that, or if it's even a factor for consideration. And I say that with the greatest respect both for HG and of your opinion as well. Is it essential for the narcissist to separate? I don't think it has ever entered into my understanding of the narcissist here. And personally, I don't believe it is possible in the sense we perceive it. Everyone is joined to the narcissist from their perspective. Even Matrinarc to HG. And vice versa. For the benefit of control. It is a seamless garment in that sense. There is no separation.

            I love our conversations, too, TS <3 You've got my neurons firing on all cylinders and it's fascinating! Hopefully HG's patience isn't worn too thin x

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp, AV,

            I’m so sorry, I’m missing comments all over the place. I’m getting some notifications and not others, that’s worse than not getting any notifications! I hate missing messages, if I haven’t responded to a comment please know it’s not intentional everyone! Xx

            Asp, that’s true, I am not an ACON. I suspect my grandfathers on both sides were narcissists though I never met either one. My experience of narcissism is limited to one relationship with an MMRA Somatic (unconfirmed by HG but it really slaps you in the face so even I worked that one out!) plus the notorious online narc. That’s it. Narcs obviously don’t like me very much or I’m an unaware hobbit, one of the two.

            I want to look up your suggestions before answering so please bear with me ! I researched psychopathy again tonight. They don’t know what it is as far as I can tell. Very woolly. Psychopaths don’t experience fear / they do experience fear. Remorse and guilt / no remorse and guilt. Primary, secondary, Borderline. It’s a minefield. Complete mess. Probably similar to narcissism information before HG burst onto the scene! There’s a business idea in there somewhere!

            Making like Schwarzenegger xx

          39. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I must admit I was surprised about two narcissists ensnaring you, goes to show how anyone can be ensnared.

            RE: psychopaths, according to what I read, they are also on a spectrum, hence the variations in those who have it. Yet, apparently there is around 1% in the population, not many compared to narcissists. In my understanding, there is differences in the characteristics between narcissism and psychopaths yet not always ‘discernable’ by those who do not have it ie doctors.

            Interesting but not surprising that LOCE can be a contributory factor. Obviously HG’s experiences as a child and with his extreme high intelligence, he was not understood and was not really given an opportunity to be ‘heard’. So, when I read KHG series, I understood his anger at being in the position he is. He understands himself more than anyone else understands him. Being an ACON, he is not just a victim of narcissism, he is also a victim of a psychopath mother. (I want to slap her face, hard!).

            So, now you’re saying that the DSM list is fked up? I already knew that. How do you know that HG is not already doing work apart from this site? Kudos to him for this KTN site, there is no site like it, narcissism or no narcissism. I look forward to your thoughts on your ‘research’, TS.

          40. A Victor says:

            No problem TS, I am having trouble just keeping up even with the notifications coming!

            I am just waiting for HG to tell us about psychopathy, he will have all those answers! And honestly at this point, I don’t really trust the “experts” so much, outside of him. I have received better “therapy” from him in 10 months than I had in all the years before that, why go elsewhere? Except yesterday when I googled daddy issues. It was the same as psychopathy perhaps, curiosity pushed me into it!

            “Making like Schwarzenegger”? “I’ll be back”?? Lol!! Very good!!

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            If you are surprised I was caught twice, you must see me as reasonably narc proof haha! In a way I think that might be right. I think my Contagion element has something to do with that. I worked in an organisation where you would expect to find a lot of narcs but must have managed to side step them. I asked HG about that. He suggested my ET must have been consistently low during this period. I think that’s a fair assessment.

            Both narcs caught me at a very low ebb. My ET will have been considerably higher on both occasions. My ET is low again now. It took a long time to fall after the online narc, not so much after the MMRA. I’m also not an ACON and my narcy traits are moderately high. So you could argue I have natural advantages but I’m certainly not immune.

            Yes, the DSM looks to be lacking when it comes to psychopathy and narcissism. I expect it is similarly lacking in other areas. Whatever you read about psychopathy is vague in my view, although I have stumbled across more recent research which asks more questions and makes other inferences. To classify psychopaths as a group into only primary and secondary can’t be accurate. To lump them all together under the heading of ASPD is even worse.

            HG has accurately classified narcissists into their cadres schools and sub schools. He has classified empaths similarly, this needs to be done for psychopaths too. At least it does if you want any type of accuracy. The issue I think is that there isn’t enough material to work with. They analysed the physicality and behaviours of psychopaths in prisons, those who demonstrably had less impulse control. They only recently started to analyse high functioning psychopaths. Those that tend not to be found in prisons! Now I’m not a betting woman but I’d hazard a guess HG fits somewhere in the latter category! We’ve seen how compliant a psychopath can be when dealing with the good doctors. In fairness getting an accurate view can’t be straightforward!

            I actually think we get more of an honest and accurate view here than most specialists in the field. We are in a privileged position in the way that HG makes himself accessible and amenable to our questions. Plus, there’s nothing on tv, so I might as well learn about psychopaths!

            It’s early days, I need to dig deeper before I get any semblance of a view. I do think understanding more about psychopathy is key to understanding the Greaters and the Ultra though. I like to understand a subject.

            I’ve taken a little research break to let my thoughts settle. I can get tangled in ideas, I’ll come back to it though and pick up with your last comment. I’m thinking about the points LET made as to motive for change. I think the problem might be the word ‘change’ and it’s connotation. Change implies something is wrong or faulty. I don’t think it’s change. I think HG is evolving in line with additional awareness and understanding of himself and us.

            Narcissists don’t self reflect but Greaters do analyse areas where they could be more effective. That’s probably my starting point.

            Maybe I need a new hobby. I’m trying paddle boarding in a couple of weeks. Staying in a bell tent on a beach. Can’t wait!


          42. Asp Emp says:

            Hey TS, thanks for your reply.

            I can now see your point made in relation to “too many theories” as stated in a previous comment. I did some more reading myself – more on the dark triad – more for myself, but having reviewed my personality type under the Myers-Brigg 16 Personalities, this does seem to explain more to me than the Aspergers traits on their own.

            Apparently, well, what I read today was that Machiavellian and Psychopathy are more closely related to each other than narcissism. Yet, I query that because if someone does a test in relation to the dark triad and score higher on Machiavellian and Narcissism rather than Psychopathy, then the fact cannot be quite correct?

            In my view, the word ‘Sociopaths’ should be removed entirely because, in my view, Psychopath is already on a spectrum and yes, it deserves to be put into a ‘system’ that is easier to comprehend, like HG has ‘systematised’ narcissism and empaths.

            Yes, HG has done really brilliant work on narcissism and empaths. He really does understand the human psyche, probably more than many people realise.

            HG is a man of mystery, he does not have to ‘reveal’ all and why should he? He was made to learn to be the person he is today, ‘constructed’ yet he has also learned to ‘navigate’ himself around others – no matter who / what they are. He’ll ‘open up’ to the right people, of his choice. Everyone in humanity has that right to choose, after all, isn’t that what the Human Rights Act is all about?

            Having said that, HG has, as you suggested, made available the information that people need to know, to understand his experiences in his life, experiences of others because of narcissism.

            To be fair, I think everyone ‘evolves’ as they go through life and their experiences, even if they learn some of that through other people (ie hearing their experiences), as long as they understand themselves as individuals. HG is one of the privileged to understand himself because of his knowledge on the human psyche.

            In my view, ‘change’ usually occurs as a result of circumstances.

            Enjoy the paddle boarding and the bell tent experiences 🙂 x

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I love your car analogy! Fuel – car, why didn’t I associate! Haha! Remind me never to play a word association game, ever. Yes, that’s a great explanation of what I was trying to get at.

          I think fuel has to correlate with control. Without control there can be no fuel. Without fuel the false self begins to crumble making control more difficult. If we were looking for wiggle room we might say that refraining from asserting control in specific situations might actually increase fuel later. Or refraining from asserting control unnecessarily might prevent fuel from turning stale. Control is still asserted for the most part but HG is a little more selective in terms of the necessity of asserting control.

          I agree with you. Any changes to behaviour would be based on benefit only to HG. The benefit might not be realised in the short term but perhaps in the longer term. The prevention of fuel turning stale for example. If fuel didn’t turn stale, the lifespan of the relationship with the IPPS would last longer. If the IPPS wasn’t controlled to the point of predictability then it’s likely that HG would maintain his interest in the IPPS for longer. There are advantages to slight changes in the level of control exerted.

          Varying control would impact fuel but also the longevity of the relationship. Long term there would be advantages to that.

          The toughest thing for me with this exercise is to strip out all empathy from the equation. It colours every article we read here. We can’t help but place our emotions over the top of the narcissist’s motives. That’s why you feel harsh in your assessment. It does feel harsh. Assuming the position of cold calculation though is the only way to getting any steer on motivation. What could be tolerated and what would instantly be ruled out.

          I’ve read that narcissists do not mellow with age. Narcissistic psychopaths do show improvement with age. Why? It has to be control based rather than fuel based. Does the need for control lessen? Similarly, psychopaths are less harmful than narcissistic psychopaths. The achieving of the objective means that the psychopath is sated for a time. The narcissist is never sated. The requirement of fuel negates to a degree any achievement of objective for the narcissistic psychopath. So they really are a machine that just keeps going. How to place that in context of effectiveness? How long can gratification be delayed to better secure a long term objective. No bloody idea! I’m still trying to pull off cold calculation over here!

          Matrinarc is a real conundrum. Without doubt she will see HG as an extension of herself. The narcissist doesn’t separate from the world around him. I’ve read that he does separate from the mother though. I do get the feeling that this is the case with HG. He took character traits, he emulated behaviours as he saw a power he wanted for himself but that still doesn’t disprove separation. She is painted black but with no prospect of ever turning white which is different in itself. Most would turn white if they proved to be useful. She’ll stay black. It’s utter disgust, distaste and flesh crawling hatred I feel from HG as regards Matrinarc. I don’t get that feeling when he discusses others. It’s not fear but it’s real discomfort. I see her as part of the Creature but that might discount separation. Or is the creature the creature exactly because its various parts do not fit the internal narrative, ie, the narrative of the false self?

          I’m rambling. Stick to the plot TS. I need to think some more and try to find the theory that supports or discounts the gut feel.

          To be continued!

          Thank you again for listening xx

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            First things first, TS. Let me put all this in the ‘speculation’ basket … at least my part of it. I am speculating. Only HG can tell us what he truly thinks, feels, believes, and he has been patient with our musings so far. We ae testing our perspectives and seeing how they fit with what we know and how we feel.

            I’m glad you found the analogy re: the vehicle and fuel helpful. It gives us an opportunity to cast the narcissist as an appliance for a change. That wasn’t my original intention, but it might be helpful in some ways going forward. It also highlights their reliance on us for what they need.

            Fuel derives from the ability to apply control. So, I agree that the two correlate, and the inability to apply control means a lessening of fuel and potential crumbling of the false self. This runs a risk for the narcissist. My understanding is that they must apply control at all times, even if it is in terms of withdrawal. The question I think we are pondering is how much ability does the Ultra aware narcissist have in terms of limiting their need for control? Which may prove more beneficial to them in the long term. I mentioned earlier that, in my understanding, this need for control comes from a period of great vulnerability for the narcissist and helps to ensure their survival. It would appear to be built into what they are and how they operate. I struggle to see how this need could be mitigated, but that’s not to say it would be impossible for the Ultra. Thus, there would need to be the motivation to do so.

            Would a relationship be the motivation for this to happen? For me, that is the biggest question. There are two ways this can go to my thinking. One is that the suggestion is laughable (from the narcissist’s perspective), in that HG is far superior to everyone else, and the need to select one IPPS above any others doesn’t exist. Playing the devil’s advocate here and trying to look at it from the bleakest, most narcissistic perspective I can muster. The other option is that HG for some reason feels the need to attempt this experiment for his own purposes. Can he make it work? For how long can he make it work? What will the outcome be? In that sense it would be a little like a scientist in his laboratory, or an alchemist with his potions. Neither of these reasons have the empath at their centre. Is there a scenario where the empath reigns supreme? That might be taking it a bit too far, but is there a scenario where the retention of the IPPS becomes more important than asserting complete control over them (which inevitably means running the gauntlet to disengagement)? Once again, for the Ultra this could go either way. Simply because of his level of awareness and intelligence. In that sense he is so high above the rest of us. Which is why I struggle to see the need to accomodate the empath who will still be an appliance when all is said and done.

            Perhaps I’ve grown cynical with my own experience and am learning to let go of false hope after learning to apply logic. In other words, what do I logically understand about this situation?

            I’ve just reread “Fury”. In it HG describes his sense of restlessness, with one IPPS even commenting on how he was like a caged animal at times. I don’t know if this sense of restlessness has ever left him. Maybe the good doctors are miracle workers, and HG certainly gives them kudos at different times. There seems to be a strange combination of gratitude and contempt I find. Regardless, they have been able to help create for him a better understanding of what he is and potentially with that comes the ability to modify certain behaviours and elements of his narcissism to suit his needs while still attaining the Prime Aims. I’m still stuck in cold calculation, unfortunately. Why would anyone who perceives a sense of their own perfection feel a need to change?

            I had this question asked of me many years ago. A friend of my ex-husband, and a non-believer, asked why God did not change a certain unchangeable element in the universe in order to prove he exists. I answered him by saying “Why would you want to change perfection?” Why would you want to upend something that is deemed to be perfect? Just to prove a point? The point is proven in the perfection. If we understand the narcissist sees themselves as that perfect being, without fault, why on earth would they feel the need to change? Does HG need to change for us to benefit from what he is and his work here? Some people will want to see that change, to know that it is possible. I want only the truth. It’s what I came here for and the reason I stay. I don’t hope any more for narcissism to be any more than what it is. And it would truly be a miracle for anything to change. I do believe in miracles, though. It’s the last frontier when it comes to narcissism.

            Matrinarc does appear to be a conundrum. I think I have settled that in my own mind, but I continue to be open to interpretations. Perhaps Matrinarc is internalized in some ways as the Creature? While she is external she is also internal. That’s just to add another thought to your final one x

            Thank you for a further enlightening discussion, TS <3 It all helps to add to my understanding around narcissism in general as well as challenge our understanding of the Ultra.

  6. A Victor says:

    Flirting is so confusing. My parents did it with others but not each other. This always made my child’s heart sad. My ex did it incessantly, which made my adult heart sad. I am convinced the only ones I’ve ever flirted with have been narcissists, they were really good at it. I didn’t flirt during my marriage except with my husband and he flirted very little with me during our relationship, except during the golden period or respites. He also never accused me of flirting with anyone and would shut down any conversation where I mentioned his flirting with he was “just being nice, like with anyone”. And since he was nice to everyone it was hard to come back with anything substantial. Because flirting can begin with, or lead to, feelings of attraction for me, I assumed the same could be for him, something he always denied. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he was doing it for fuel,and since monogamy didn’t matter to him, it all worked out for him even if he did find himself attracted to someone else.

    So many mixed messages to chalk up to being an ACON. Many are things that I feel like I have to break through the fog and decide for myself on, my comfort level, my values, but where to even start? I actually love flirting, love it! I want a person to flirt with, a significant other who feels safe, who will flirt with me and not others. Is that too much to ask for, really?

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      I see flirting as harmless fun. A bit like window shopping. You can window shop without any intention to buy. I flirt a lot. In a relationship or out of a relationship, it doesn’t matter. If my partner flirts that doesn’t bother me. My view is that he’s with me, if he didn’t want to be with me, then he would ship out. Same goes for me.

      There’s flirting and there’s being all over someone. Even single I don’t fawn all over someone. If my partner went the fawning route then I wouldn’t stand for that either. Flirt, have fun, don’t be physical about it though, there’s a distinct difference.

      Maybe my flirting is of an innocent brand! Laugh, be sarcastic, be playful is my approach. If it turns lecherous, touchy or with too much innuendo then I’m out of there, Haha! So basically, I’m all talk really. An innocent flirt. I have flirted in work, that’s less innocent in terms of motivation. More manipulative, but still the same brand.

      I think it stems from Pride and Vanity. My two strongest narcy traits. Without those two traits I think it would be tough to flirt convincingly.

      1. A Victor says:

        Thank you for that reply TS, I really don’t understand these things but your explanation helps. I find that I don’t know boundaries so better safe than sorry if I’m in a relationship and I have gotten myself into trouble when not in one, as I said, I think that has largely been with narcissists, they are so irresistible to me and also, they make it so much fun! I don’t think normals and empaths do it as much, at least until there is a bit of a relationship established. But, how would I know? I’ve never been with a normal or empath! Thank you again!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I see Alexis answered similarly.

          A narcissistic relationship is all about possession. They see us as possessions. If they see us in that way then there is no room or acceptance of anything being done outside of it being done for them. No acceptance of aspects of our personality that don’t conform to their idea of us and how we ‘should’ be behaving. That’s before we start on the control aspect!

          Healthy relationships are accepting of quirks. The partner knows I’m flirtatious. I was flirtatious at the start I’m not going to suddenly stop. It’s not a new occurrence. They also know I’m faithful and respectful of the relationship though. So really, it’s clear, I’m just being me.

          It must be more difficult if your experiences are based on narcissistic relationships.

          I think healthy people know what is acceptable and not acceptable because they talk about it, they listen to each other. One doesn’t manipulate the other into submission. Quirks are accepted and incorporated not stifled.

          Everyone is different. Some healthy relationships won’t involve flirting, neither partner is flirtatious or, their views might be that flirting is unacceptable when in a relationship. That’s fine too, if both agree and are more comfortable with that. Honest communication, acceptance, respect and trust all feed into it I think. Xx

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I’m a big flirt, so is my husband. I’ve never felt threatened by his flirting nor him me. We flirt with each other also. But when an N flirts there is something quite different about it and they glance over continuously to make sure you are noticing too. When my ex N flirted it hurt. When my husband does it, I just find it fun. So I can see why people think flirting is harmful because when an N does it, it truly is.

        I guess the difference is, with the N there were a whole host of other behaviours which left me doubting myself. With my husband there are none.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Yes, I know what you mean. It boils down to trust I think. At least it does within a healthy relationship, where lines of communication are left open. I think it is clear that the flirtation is just social, part of the character in many ways. So there’s nothing suspect, the line won’t be crossed on either side. In many ways I think it’s healthy. It’s a reminder that we are desirable but also a reminder to us that our partners are too. We are there because we both want to be there. It can remind both sides to cherish what they have.

          1. A Victor says:

            AS and TS, thank you both so much, this has been very interesting! I have learned some really good things here and now understand this better, I really appreciate your feedback very much!

        2. A Victor says:

          Alexissmith, that makes so much sense! I had wondered if my parent’s had flirted with each other, and her not complained about him flirting to us kids, if I would view it differently, like it was just good clean fun and no one was being threatened, no relationship was being questioned etc. My ex was a cheater so his flirting was for real, I knew it and he knew I knew it. So it hurt. I do hope to have a flirt partner someday, like you do, one who makes me so secure that it can be fun and no worries. Thank you!

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I hope you find a flirt partner too AV. I totally agree if you’re not secure in each other’s love it cuts like a knife, a completely different experience.

          2. Another Cat says:


            “I’m a big flirt, so is my husband. I’ve never felt threatened by his flirting nor him me.”

            So happy for you. Reminds me of an empathic boyfriend. We were together for 7 years I think. He was very healthy in this respect. Wish I hadn’t broken up with him (mine and his nagging Midranger mothers put very very much stress on us) The more I learn from Tudor uni, the more I understand that that empathic guy was the love of my life.
            Your situation AlexisSmith gives me hope that there still is healthy love in this world.

          3. A Victor says:

            AC and Alexissmith, it gives me the same hope.

          4. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Another cat, awww I can’t reply directly but there is hope and there is real love. Yes I made some mistakes by getting involved with an N. But I told him everything and of course I hurt him hugely but I’m so lucky and I know I am. we’re both still very much in love.

            I wish you hadn’t left your empath either but I’m sure it was what was right at that point in time.

            There are only so many personalities in the world and so you’ll be sire to find another x

      3. A Victor says:

        Oh TS, I just caught your last sentence! Those are my two strongest N traits also and that makes sense why I enjoy it so much then! Thank you!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          You’re welcome. You’ll find your flirt partner, probably in the least obvious place. Xx

      4. Joa says:

        Pride and vanity. I also have both.

        The last triangulation of “my” narcissist about a new (real or imaginary IPPS or IPSS).

        He: “She’s fragrant, attractive and gorgeous. You don’t get up to her heels.”

        Me: “I doubt it.”

        He: “Aha ha ha, you’ve always been like that! I want to beat your selfish nose!”

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I see our narcissistic traits as offering protection. My narc didn’t damage my self esteem either, I think I have my friends pride and vanity to thank for that. My narc damaged me in that he just made me sad.

          1. Another Cat says:


            It was a bad thing still, to make you sad.

            Yep vanity and pride, I recognize those. This is why obvious narcs don’t have success, first they need to appear humble. Whenever in life I met a new guy at some gathering or work, bragging about all the women who fall for him, my pride kicked in.

            “Haha. I have much hotter legs than you!” is my immediate first silent
            thought. Ah, the vanity.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            So true. I can’t warm to the bragging types either. Understated is far more attractive to me. And yes, same here, when I hear it my inner voice responds with, ‘Oh do be quiet.’. Occasionally my outer voice says the same thing! Haha!

            I think our pride and vanity works in a different way to the narc version of the same traits. I don’t love myself in a ‘look at me’ way. I just put in the effort to look good. When I look good I feel confident. Self assured. I do it for me, not so that people look at me, if that makes sense?

            I’m actually not great at taking compliments. Not just about appearance, about anything. HG said “Well done” to me during consultation. I didn’t answer. I talked past it I think. So my pride shrinks back when someone compliments. Not sure why. I can’t imagine a narcissist ever feeling uncomfortable with compliments haha!

          3. A Victor says:

            TS, I believe you are correct, narcissists do not feel uncomfortable with compliments! But next time, just say “Thank you.” and move the conversation on. I have learned to do this, even though I am uncomfortable, it helps the moment to pass more quickly and smoothly. Just a tip. 🙂

          4. Joa says:

            Narcissistic traits protect self-esteem (the older I am, the bigger I am). They protect against stifling.

            Beautifully written. Sadness was the dominant feeling. He rejected our Little Flower, which he previously hugged, rocked and played. I couldn’t understand it then.

            I saw him get tired. What came to me with natural ease, what made me unearthly happiness, was a huge challenge for him. As if he was fighting with himself, as if trying to defy himself …
            This hurt me more than the perfidious games. The effort he put … to love?

            Recently he told me: “You run away when I speak honestly, when I tell the truth.” He is right. His outbursts, aggression, attacks, malice aimed at me, paranoia, nonsense, all this chaos – don’t make a big impression on me anymore. I turn on my narcissist and laugh.

            The TRUTH about himself, about … what he doesn’t feel – it hurts me the most. This bitter truth destroys all illusions. But I’m not running away. I just withdraw to digest it, to understand it somehow, to get used to it. I acknowledge this. I only withdraw for a moment. And I back. And I still am.

            He says it without malice. Just plain, completely dispassionate. It hurts the most. Sad truth.

        2. Alexissmith2016 says:

          The bragging Ns are so dull but I do rather enjoy taking the piss out of them abd they’re absolutely clueless too. I can’t help myself.

          Flirting, I don’t take it to sexual innuendos and I flirt with women as much as men so not in a sexual way. Just in a way to make them feel special I guess. But guys still perceive it as me ‘wanting them’ so I can get me into bother from time to time.

          1. Joa says:

            What kind of flirting is this if there is no sexual context?
            I don’t think I understand 😊

            I love it when they brag and I can question them 😊
            Done in the right way, with the right look, facial expressions, intonation, it does not offend anyone.

      5. jasmin says:

        I’m so different from you TS!☺ I can’t flirt just for fun. I feel like I trick the other person! I only flirt if I’m truley intressted. Then if the interest gets lost along the way that’s no problem because I know I’ve been honest. I take flirting way to serious I think🙈, but at the same time I don’t want to do something that I don’t feel comfortable with!

        AV my ex husband never accused me of flirting either but he told me that when a women smiles towards a man he thinks she’s interested in him. Early on in the relationship he even uplifted other women who behaved like he wanted me to behave, ex: – ‘did you see that woman, she’s kind and polite but also serious so that she doesn’t leave any gap that a man can enter through”.
        He took another, in my opinion smarter way! Did you experience something similar?

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hi Jasmin,

          It’s funny, I don’t think about it. It’s not a case of me thinking to myself “He’s attractive, I think I’ll flirt and see where it goes.” It’s automatic.
          I think perhaps it depends on the type of flirting too. I don’t use much innuendo for example, so it’s not a sexual flirting. I’m not flirting with any objective. I’m just flirtatious. Like Joa, I’m comfortable in the company of men, often more so than in the company of women. So it’s a more laughing, teasing (not sexual teasing) sarcastic style of flirting.

          This is probably quite off putting to narcissists. Cant imagine them being too comfortable laughing at themselves. It might be why I seem to coast along narc free for most of the time. I’m probably placed in the “too risky” box. Fine by me!

          1. jasmin says:

            Hello TS!
            I don’t think about it either- until afterwards!
            I guess that it’s the unconscious that pics up the attraction witch moves me into flirting. I think that after any interaction I rerun it, or at least part of it and there is when I think -” I’m attracted to him, let’s see where it goes!”😂😂
            I’m not generally flirting, it’s something that happens occasionally. Never sexual early on. I’m very sociable and feel comfortable around all people except for when there are “love feelings” involved.. Before my first boyfriend I was extremely shy. If any boy showed an interest I’ve runed away coz I couldn’t stand the feeling of embassment. I’m not that shy today but I still got some of it left and often blush a bit when I’m flirting.☺

            As you are just flirtatious, do you flirt with women as well?

            “Can’t imagine them being too comfortable laughing at themselves.”
            Actually narc 2 did this and it was what most conned me to think he was humble..

          2. Joa says:

            And where it is disgusting – they always show their dominance 😊

            I like their funny teasing. I countered with my 😊

            Teasing, oh yeah!

            There are people with whom you hold a rigid frame. There are innocents. They are gloomy.

            And those with whom the sexual context is so safe and cultural that we can play with ambiguous words and laugh. At work, it translates into male-female cooperation very well.

            Of course, breaking the boundaries – too close a tilt, too blunt utterance – creates an ice barrier.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree. Flirting should be fun. Now I come to think of it both the MMRA and MMRB weren’t great at flirting. The MMRA took himself very seriously. My friend Katie picked up on it straight away. She’s definitely a normal, lightning wit, one of the funniest people I know. Yorkshire girl, the type that if you put her in an empty room, she would still get up to mischief and emerge with a story.

            We had been out round the local bars, she was staying at mine, we came back fairly hammered and continued drinking at home. The MMRA (uninvited) let himself in and sat down. He turned on the charm. Katie was polite to start with, I was visibly irritated by the intrusion, I’m big on my own space and privacy. We were drinking vodka and when we offered him a glass he responded, “I’ve got some Smirnoff Blue label downstairs, I’ll go get it.”

            He was barely out of the door before she was on it, mimicking what he had just said, “Oooh f’kn’ hell, Smirnoff blue, look at you !”

            If I mentioned his name tomorrow she would mimic that phrase. Normals just don’t buy in at all. Invasion of privacy, up himself and without foundation, was her instant assessment of him and she wasn’t moving from it.

            The MMRB took everything I said literally. More or less. I amended as we were online, I still teased but I was more careful and toned it down. His teasing came across as sharper. He was nice, or he was sharp but the subtlety of flirting was largely lost on him. In person, he was better but still not quite right. I amended online, I didn’t amend or tone down my style of humour in person. It’s part of my personality and I couldn’t remove it even if I wanted to. He would laugh, tease back but with a delay. Clunky would be the best way to describe it. Probably stinging from what he would perceive as challenge fuel.

            I wonder if my flirting style is perceived only as challenge fuel? Am I challenging?!

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, due to your conversation here with Joa and JasminI, I have identified different ways that I flirt, I had not considered it before. One of them that YT touched on, being challenging, is one of my favorites. It was constant sparring with the Summer narc, he commented on it, that he’d never experienced a woman who could and would come right back at him. It was so much fun! I don’t believe it was at all challenging in any real way to him though, for two reasons. One, it was the GP. Two, he had my complete focus Ann’s attention when it was happening. It may have challenged him but he encouraged it and I think felt he was in control, he knew I was loving it. Thank you for bringing to my attention that there are varying types of flirting, I will be watching myself for that now.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Hahaha yep, sparring counts! You big flirt!


          6. A Victor says:

            Aw, thanks. This whole thread has been so fun and informative. So much to process. I am very grateful for all the input. 🙂

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Jasmin, no my ex didn’t worry about me. He never once accused me of anything or said things like what you’re ex did. I didn’t flirt, he knew it that was it. My first ex was the same.

          1. jasmin says:

            Hi A Victor.
            As I read your answers I understand that he knew that I wasn’t flirting, cheating or even lying as well. He didn’t like me to talk to stuff in shops, supermarkets, hotels and so on either. Even if they were women. I think it was more of a case of that he didn’t like the fuel go elsewhere, isolation and preventing me from being me so that I became easier to control.
            Thank you so much for your awnser it was very helpful to me.

          2. A Victor says:

            Jasmin, your comment helped me too!! I had not realized it before but my ex was always so proud of me when we were out, like he took credit for me! Haha, this thought is delighting me a bit! It has made so much fall into place! He would watch me interact, with a smile on his face and I didn’t understand, it actually made me feel good! Now I think I do understand! Thank you too!

          3. Joa says:

            Interesting. “My” narcissist liked it when I filtered and gave attention to other men – his friends. He watched. He liked when his colleagues were delighted with me.

            He knew I only had his in my head… and my heart.

            He did not like and despises my company. Especially male.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Joa, yes, this thread made me realize why whenever men indicated that they found me attractive, he was so happy about it. I had not been able to understand this before, some men would get so jealous of the same, or worried about losing you or whatever. He really liked it, I never liked his reaction really, I wasn’t sure how to take it. And he did bring up threesomes and swapping etc, stuff he knew I wouldn’t do. Now it makes more sense. I think he knew his control of me was so complete that I would not consider an affair so no need for him to worry about that. Maybe he would’ve even liked it had I done it. Who knows.

          5. Joa says:

            Victor, I am not as innocent as you 😊

            It’s completely natural for me. Pleasant for both parties. Sometimes he would come out quietly and wait for me to find out and run after him. Sometimes I did it, and sometimes I kept playing and told him to wait.

            And many other little “things” that I will not admit to, ha ha ha 😊

            Triangles, replaces, peeps – these are probably such lighter propositions from narcissists.

            Would he like it? Sometimes the proposal is a test. It depends on the person. These are individual preferences.

            “Mine” had total control over me too, I was staring only at him, I would never have betrayed him, but I liked to tease him sometimes. A bit of dynamics will always come in handy 😊

          6. A Victor says:

            Joa, I love your “I am not as innocent as you”! I suppose that is likely true, but not for lack of trying on my part!! I need to find out how one could be so naive, as I have been, and yet so distrusting and world-wise in some ways, at the same time.

            My ex had had experiences prior to me, when he told me about them, he was bragging and I felt was very upset by some of them. I just couldn’t go there with him after hearing those things. It did not appeal at all.

            I think the proposals were indeed often tests but always with a bit of hope on his part, that I would agree. He did not push those things on me though, after the sleep rape event. He was much more cautious after that. I’m actually surprised that he stayed with me at all after that, now. His preferences were anything, anyone, that he could get some fuel from.

            I will have “dynamics” with a non-narc someday, maybe…:)

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      AV, I’ve never flirted in my life. I find it extremely embarrassing and it makes me blush when someone tries to flirt with me. I notice immediately when there’s an intention and I shut down. I don’t have that skill because being an ACON, I was always the older sister who had to be responsible and serious. My flirting attempts consist of challenging the other person intellectually, which could be perceived as a competition instead. When I notice people flirting I feel nauseated. But when the narc started flirting with other people while triangulating me with them I felt like a knife was ripping me apart from the inside out, not only because of jealousy, which is a narcissistic trait I have, but also because I could not compete with that because I don’t know how to and I don’t even want to learn. Not being flirtatious however has never stopped me from dating. I just don’t understand what people see in it. So I guess my question is: do you miss meeting someone you like and feel connected to, or do you just miss the feeling of flirting? Maybe both?

      1. A Victor says:

        Sweetest Perfection, thank you for adding your perspective here! I really appreciate that a lot! I know that whenever I have flirted, it has been with a narcissist. I am easily sucked into it by them because I love the mental and emotional stimulation it gives me. I actually missed that the most when I ended it with the summer narc and even told him I would be going through withdrawals from all the fun! I have come to believe it is part of the addiction for me.

        I actually hate dating, until the relationship is a bit established. I don’t like being around new people, I don’t like that time of not allowing them to see who I am, past what I’m comfortable showing, until I’ve decided whether or not they are going to be kept around, it is too much stress. Of course, the only ones I’ve kept around were likely narcs which means they made the decision more than I.

        I am also the oldest child and was always the responsible one, so I learned that flirting was a way to let my hair down, so to speak, and not be responsible, much like why I once over-drank. But, it also gets me into trouble, has every time.

        Your questions are very good, I will give that some thought. It may be that I really need to restructure, flirting has always been very early, maybe I need that connection to be built first and then see if flirting happens. That is actually a really scary thought for me, like it gave me shivers! It means I have to approach with the idea of exposing myself a bit more, flirting has been a way to get to know someone, haha when it’s with a narc, and not expose myself. Or at least expose myself in a way that felt safe, like if there was rejection, it was all just in fun anyway, we can all just walk away unscathed. Good grief, I flirt because I’m afraid!! Well, thank you SP, that is going to be changed. I am now even more grateful for your comment! Thank you for allowing my thought process to unfold here. Did not see this one coming. 🙂

        1. Joa says:

          It’s interesting that I mainly flirt with narcissists that I know well. I know their facade won’t let it go any further, that they need me for a specific purpose, so I’m safe.

          But like you, I am flirting with longing for this empathic-narcissistic wave passing through my body. It’s only a tenth of a real wave with “my” narcissist, but always some substitute 🙂

          Sometimes, with a playful flirtation, I defuse a tense or awkward situation (e.g. a narcissistic friend told me about an erotic dream with me in the lead role, too long and too detailed for a friendly relationship – I couldn’t look him in the eye, I had to flatten with a joke, slightly making fun so that he does not feel an advantage, to keep his distance).

          I like to flirt with him, laugh at his petty malice towards me, though sometimes he crosses the border of insolence and I have to bite back gently. And even throw profanity when he bends.

          I’ve been in the men’s world for 25 years. It is better for me to work with them and be friends.
          Women, only a few, but two wonderful friends.
          I know, it will sound scary – most of the women around me bore me.

          I am prone to digress. A lot of thoughts in my head. I drove away from the topic again 😀

          1. A Victor says:

            Joa, no problem, my thoughts digress all the time! Drives some people crazy but others go with the flow, or the jumping! I have always preferred men, many women I don’t trust. The relationship with my mom, TTU, left me very distrustful of them. There are certain ones that I feel safe with but not generally. The company I work for is all men, very nice, no cattiness, very little small talk etc. No flirting either, it’s a business setting and also they’re all attached, they don’t and I wouldn’t. I control the flirting when it happens, to a degree, at least the narc allows me to think I do, haha. If they go too far, there is a reprimand, makes it more fun! But, sometimes I am caught off guard, they like the startled effect I think.
            So that’s also fun. Anyway, thank you for the comment, it was fun to read!

    3. Bubbles says:

      Dearest A Victor,
      My mum has been and still is, the biggest flirt. She always goes for Mr Bubbles lips with the hello and goodbye greeting kiss and ends with a big “mwah” and smack of the lips
      I guess that’s why I don’t, never have or had to flirt
      I’ve always found flirts to be womanisers
      Just my ‘smile’, ‘ niceness’ and polite conversation seem to attract
      I’m a magnet and even being out wearing my mask, men still come up and talk to me in the shops …. good grief, seriously ? YES 😷
      We as empaths should be very careful ‘flirting’ …. we always attract the wrong kind.
      If a man’s interested, he’ll come up to you. Always proceed with auction however, buyer beware.
      If your man flirts with others, the question I’d ask is ‘why’ ?
      Narcs will give you their undivided attention for as long as the golden period is necessary, then it’s all over red rover
      Is that too much to ask? …… ummmmmm, these days, probably
      You have to be extremely savvy now ! Sorry lovely, I don’t mean to dampen your horizon.
      With everyone’s current entitlement trend, it’s become so much harder to tell the difference these days, one has to tread extremely carefully
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. A Victor says:

        Dear sweet Bubbles, thank you so much for your comment here! I can feel your care and concern for my well-being flowing out of it and I am so grateful! My dad did love women, I don’t know how much he cheated but I know there was some. I always viewed his flirting as cheating too, it should’ve been directed at my mom, in my mind. But, I learned from him that women are for flirting, for sex, for bearing children, very specific roles and being his golden child, especially the oldest very responsible one, I learned my lessons well. Now I must walk back and reassess. And I will definitely be taking your caution to heart, if there is to be any flirting going forward, it will be after there is a relationship established and I know the person is not a narcissist. Within that setting I think it could be fine?? But I don’t want to put myself in harms way for a bit of fun, so I will be very very careful. Thank you so much! Your willingness to speak out to this and the content of your comment really means a lot to me!
        Luv, AV 🥰😘

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest A Victor,
          Awwww precious, you’re kindness warms me so much, thank you ☺️
          We need to protect each other at all costs from these leeches. They suck everything out of you then off they go to suck out another with no conscience whatsoever for their actions.
          We have to drill it in our heads, narcs are our enemy and to be on high alert at all times as we are extremely susceptible and easy prey.
          Your dad sounded like my dad, (mine was European) very old school……”a woman’s place is in the kitchen where they belong and pregnant” ….and look where it got him, my dad ended up dying alone with nothing …..the council took over and handled his disposal haha …he got his just desserts in my book
          My grandpa pretty much ignored my grandma, however, she didn’t go without and “served” him well. I believe she ended up “bitter” because of it ……. maybe your mum is a somewhat the same (they never talked about anything in those days)

          There ARE nice genuine men out there, however I doubt you’ll meet them in a bar or nightclub. I’ve always stayed clear of work romances (I used to get ‘hit on’ at work and I always found it a ‘right pain in the arse’ to then have to politely say ‘thanks, but no thanks’ without any repercussions)
          Sounds like you’ve got your ‘game on’ AV …. high five gorgeous ✋️
          Just need to find that needle in the haystack hehe
          Don’t forget to take your antihistamines 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. A Victor says:

            Wow Bubbles, did you hit that in black and white or what?! “…no conscience whatsoever for their actions…narcs are our enemy…high alert at all times…extremely susceptible and easy prey”! Wow, I am going to have that tattooed on my hand! Ok, not really but I am going to write it on a post-it note and put it where I see it all the time!

            Our fathers do sound similar. Mine died alone, never having had a meaningful or healthy relationship with anyone. My mother is bitter because she is a narc, I think. Or do narcs do bitter? I don’t know, I just know there was literally no love lost between them.

            I met my 2nd ex in a nice nightclub, haha, never again, I don’t even go to them. Or bars. And my first ex at work! No, it will likely never happen but that is fine, I am very happy. And I no longer wonder “if” I could be in a healthy relationship, I believe I could, so that part has been answered for me. I will only miss the physical intimacy but as you said somewhere else, as we get older that may not be as important. I feel absolutely cheated on that due to my upbringing and my ex but I will have to let that go. Anyway, I have no idea why you believe my game is on, I have only flirted with narcs and that has been few and far between. Once another blogger here and I were talking about how we don’t get approached, I do get approached by people generally but not for romantic reasons, unless they’re narcs. Thank you for the reply, very helpful and uplifting, as always!!

          2. Another Cat says:

            Gawwd Bubbles and A Victor. So often reminded. A girlfriend of mine just realized. We have speculated for years whether her husband is normal or narcissist. Turns out, she’s been doing exactly everything at the house, the kids, etc, and doing her pH d in rocket science at the same time.

            Luckily she is very attractive and there are several “applicants” should she escape. He always tells her threatening putdowns at home, etc. I’m so moved by all of this, even though I understand she is in a good position now. She sent me a couple of SV clips, I sent her a couple of HG Audios. Felt a bit like table tennis.

            Yes there really are some nice ones out there Bubbles, just need to find them.

          3. A Victor says:

            AC, glad to read your friend is making progress. She is lucky to have you in her corner, as a rushfriendand also with all the knowledge you have of narcissism. I wish her the best.

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            With regards to narcs, one indeed has to be brutal for our own protection!
            They literally DO NO CARE, I repeat DO NOT CARE about anyone but themselves and what benefits them and only them.

            Decent men who care, respect, treat you with kindness and genuinely love you, would not come on hot n strong, profess their undying love for you nor shower you with compliments and gifts.

            AV, my reference to your ‘game on’ is that I see you a lot more savvy now and you appear to have learnt so much to be able to see all the red flags. I believe you’d be able to handle yourself in a narc situation quite well, ‘game on, sucker’ 😂
            I feel underlying bitterness produces sarcasm, all my narcs are sarcastic! They feel threatened by those who challenge them, hence their defence mechanism is contempt. Jealous of our happiness, confidence and envious of our popularity. They want to destroy all of our goodness. We are amazingly fabulous, I have to admit 😂
            Very little phases me these days. Everything they say and do, I take with a grain of salt.
            I also understand the need for physical intimacy AV, but let’s not let our gullible emotional attachment result in us settling for any less than what we deserve.
            That’s why the vibrator was invented 🍆 🤣
            Always a pleasure AV 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, I love that you put things so clearly including the definitions and examples of wha decent men will do. More post-it notes!

            Thank you for the strong affirmation regarding my “game”! That is so encouraging! I think the learning is starting to take hold but living with my mom, even though I rarly see her, keeps my ET raised a bit ship thatstill makes me nervous. But I really appreciate your confidence in me, it is encouraging.

            Now, to check into this ‘vibrator’ thing…;)

          6. A Victor says:

            Arg, autocorrect, sorry Bubbles! Time for bed. For me. 😆

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Another Cat,
            A decent husband does not threaten his wife or put her down.
            That’s not love AC… sorry!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. Bubbles says:

        Ps Sorry * proceed with caution and *dampen your spirits
        Note to self …. don’t comment after drinking Savagnin and watching the Olympics and then go to bed way after my bedtime 😂

        1. A Victor says:

          Haha, your PS made me giggle! I understood, thank you!

  7. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I know.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      LOL, TS.

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