Prayer For The Victim



I will pray for you because I know that you seek redemption at my loving hand. It is understandable. You are a lost soul. I know, hush, you need not speak for restoration hangs from my lips. Listen and allow my words to grant you the salvation that you are so desperate for. I know what you are. I know because I am everywhere, I am everyone and I am everything.

I understand what has happened to you. I know how you have been let down. I know how disappointment followed you like an unshakeable shadow, no matter how you applied yourself. Oh I know beneath the sin you are a good person. Your acts and your words are like beams of white light that have punctured through the dark firmament that has wrapped itself around you, cloaking you in the venom that was placed over you so long ago. Others think that they know you, but they do not.

They think that this person who moves through life, never seeking to offend or hurt, never wanting to wound or injure, a person who wishes to bring calm, bring healing and bring solace to this world, they think that this person becomes weighed down by the misery, the chaos and the injustice which rises like some ever encroaching tide. They think that it is this which causes those pure tears to trickle down that unblemished skin.

They think that it is all of those things which coil like rusty chains about you, dragging you down, hauling you into the quagmire of human misery and dejection. They are mistaken. You can readily with those outrageous slings and arrows. You are made of stern stuff. The insults only spur you on to succeed. The recalcitrance is but a signal to you to keep trying. The rejections just symptomatic of those you wish to help not understanding their own pain.

Yes, it is trying, but you are able to rise above all of this. The woes of this world are not designed to weigh heavy on one such as you. I know this. The others do not. I understand that you were sent to bring light and love to the unloved, the broken, the hurt and the despairing.

No matter how poisonous the world you will breathe your purity out, ever giving and ever resourceful until you have pushed aside those toxic clouds, dissipated the polluted fogs and brought restorative blue skies and dazzling sunshine. You are someone who is able to right the wrongs of this world. I recognise all of this.

I also know that it is not these external troubles which mean that I must pray for you. It is the burden that lies deep within you. Few know of it do they? Just you and perhaps him oh and them as well but they do not want to talk about it do they? They did not back then.

They did not listen and you must be heard, isn’t that right? I listen to you. The difference is though I actually hear you. I hear that silent tortured scream which emanates from you regularly. That howling wilderness that exists inside someone who appears to be so wholesome. The rest of them are too eager to avail themselves of your goodness so that they fail to notice the wounds which are riddled throughout you.

The weeping sores, the festering wounds all caused by him so long ago. None of them recognise these things but I do. I am trained to do so. I am attuned to scent your agony which you mask so well but it is that pain which acts like a siren’s call to me because I am the only one that can save you. Those fools that mill about you, all they wish to do is take from you and you allow that to happen because you regard that as your role. It is admirable in the extreme.

The extent of your serenity when they might sorely test you is quite the thing to behold. Yet, there is no solace for you is there? Where is your tranquillity, your place of sanctuary? That has always been denied to you has it not? Well, no longer, for I have been sent in order to redeem you. I am the bottomless receptacle into which you must pour yourself. Alleviate yourself of the leaden weight of despair and with such excellent proclamation, cast it into me. I shall absorb it all.

Everything that has plagued you, pained you and seared through you with terrible agony can now be poured into me. I am your saviour. All I ask is that you allow your every emotion to be exhibited and exposed and in return I will be the one that finally cures you of those entrenched woes. Nobody understands what you have endured, but I do. I did not see what happened to you but I know what happened to you. It is etched across you, in the way you smile, the way you move, the way you love.

Only I can recognise this and in turn that is why it is only me that can be your salvation. Nobody else can achieve that for you. You do not even know it but that is why you are drawn to me in this manner, with such intensity. You think that you know what I am. You do not. You will come to think that you must repair me and make me good once again. But it is you that must be mended.

There is something very wrong with you, something that happened so long ago that often you forget what it is, but it will not forget you. I am the redeemer. I am your salvation.

Kneel before me and with my anointed hand, let me place it on your wretched head and in so doing I shall cleanse you. You have found me now and you shall never be parted from me, for now it is only I that can save you.”

114 thoughts on “Prayer For The Victim

  1. Jasmine says:

    Phenomenal HG. Thank you for this one.

  2. Wendy says:

    AV and TS, thank you both for that in depth discussion! You both made very thought provoking points. I want to just say to you both that this conversation needed to happen! Because, for me and probably others reading it you have given us some answers, not concrete ones but answers nonetheless by just having the discussion.

    TS, to your point that HG is an anomaly, I absolutely agree! Because he is an anomaly and is so self aware it gives me hope that he could change or at least control the narcissism to the point of allowing him to remain in a relationship without devaluing his IPPS. If HG could do that then why couldn’t other N’s do it? This does evoke “ hope” because the minute I read it, my mind went straight to my ex and for a moment I was flooded with emotions and thinking maybe he can change or at least “control” his NPD! I loved that fake man! 😂
    You really offered up some excellent points to think about!

    AV, everything you said made sense. I completely understand why you got uncomfortable with the conversation. Not because TS said anything wrong because I believe she is just bouncing thoughts around. For me, hearing you express yourself about the danger of giving false hope shows how much you care about people who come here for help. I could sense your pain from your own experiences. Although the discussion was upsetting to you, I am thankful for it because it really puts things into perspective for me and my feelings about my ex and whether he could change or not. You really gave some excellent reasons why a narcissist cannot change per HG Tudor!

    The brain is an incredible organ and the possibility of some sort of treatment is not impossible. We use ECT to treat severe depression and it actually works to rewire the chemistry in the brain thus changing the thought processes. Although, depression is not cured it is manageable and this changes lives. I know it’s controversial but the statistics prove it to be very helpful. I’m not suggesting this would be a treatment for NPD lol, they are obviously completely different diagnoses, just using it as an example. We just don’t know the potential treatments that are still yet to be discovered. I do have hope in that.

    Educating ourselves is the most hopeful thing we can do when it comes to NPD. Reducing the ET, which I still struggle with, and having wonderful discussions with those who have had the same experiences who can support each other without judgment or shame. People just don’t understand if they haven’t gone through it!

    Every piece of info that you guys offer up on this blog I soak it up like a sponge! I love HG for being who he is and doing what he does because if not for him then where the hell else would we learn the truth?!

    I appreciated the dialogue between you two and it helped me. So, thank you both! 🤗💕

    1. A Victor says:

      Thank you for your comment Wendy. I am glad our discussion helped you. That helps to make it worth it to me for having had it.

      1. Wendy says:

        AV, you’re welcome. 😊

  3. NarcAngel says:

    You can Go to The Golden Archives at the bottom and start at 2015.

    1. Violetta says:


      Thanks. I have a lot of catching up to do.

  4. lickemtomorrow says:

    Just to add some thoughts around SM and HG’s relationship with her:

    1/ HG said in his interview with Doug that SM was not in a period of ‘sustained devaluation’, which says to me that she has experienced moments of devaluation as necessary in order for HG to assert and maintain control. That is my impression of what he said and commensurate with his narcissism. Maybe he has triangulated her occasionally, given her a silent treatment, and so on.

    2/ The reason SM is not in sustained devaluation is because there is the necessary space between HG and SM to prevent that from happening at the moment. They are not living together, or in eachother’s pockets, which means her fuel will not become stale, meaning it will remain potent, and is likely ‘on tap’ in one respect or another as required, so it’s frequency is guaranteed by availability, whether by technology or in person contact. HG also has many others in his fuel matrix to sustain him as necessary.

    3/ There is a need to consider the possibility of a challenge to HG’s control by SM. If her school is Super and her Cadre Magnet, then she will likely present challenges in the circumstances which is something HG as the Ultra narcissist will expect and might also enjoy. Remember, the games are always being played, and SM is a piece in HG’s game. She may well be benefiting from that opportunity, but HG has many pawns for his pleasure and amusement. I’m just not sure ‘this pawn’ is the only one on the board (probably not) and what kind of challenge she could eventually present to him.

    All in all, there are two individuals concerned here, one who is aware and one who is unaware. The possibility of an encroaching awareness needs to be raised. What that means is anyone’s guess.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi LET, my understandING is the same as yours, except I think I read somewhere that they do live together at least sometimes, but both travel a lot for work, or similar.

      I am curious what you mean by the “possibility of an encroaching awareness” line? That she may be figuring.some things out and it may come to a point of HG either telling her or devaluing or disengaging? This is an interesting thought and one I believe is a real possibility. Thank you for your comment here, it was interesting to me.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Hi AV,

        I appreciate your input, and I mentioned ‘not living in eachother’s pockets’ as a way of describing a possible living together situation, but also spending a great deal of time apart. I don’t think HG has ever clarified this aspect of their relationship, so maybe a good question for the next Q&A, unless I’ve missed it.

        The possibility of an encroaching awareness basically means what brought us all here in the first place. Whether she finds herself at some point in a sustained devaluation, which I believe is always a possibility, and her Super elements come to the fore to generate a decision to Get Out, or HG tires of her fuel, i.e. its potency wanes, its regularity is insufficient, the amount is unsatisfactory, which will trigger the sustained devaluation, the likelihood of an awareness developing remains high.

        That is certainly the case if she is of the mettle which HG describes.

        Happy, as always, to share my thoughts, AV, and glad you found them interesting. I also found reading your own interesting and have my moments, too, of questioning the possibility of this relationship working out based on what we have not only learned but also experienced of narcissism. I do not want to lend any false hope to the equation, and often would not comment out of respect for HG, but what I have noticed about some of these discussions is the lack of focus on the ‘victim’, i.e. SM, which likely relates to the desire not to see her as such. That is because we also have a great deal of respect for HG, and a high degree of sympathy for his past experiences, which naturally lead us to wanting the best for him.

        It is a confusing mix, which is where the Cherry Bowl article totally tugs at my heartstrings as a way of highlighting what I would want for HG, and yet the sum total of his other articles make me believe that is not possible. The scales are weighted in my mind toward eventual disengagement based on that. At the same time, my heart tells me I want HG to be happy and fulfilled. It’s a classic battle between ET and LT.

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes, LET, that is there conflict I have also. I relate so strongly to SM, and I relate HG to my ex, that I can only hope for her well being, whether it is through escape or disengagement, which I see as most likely, or a life long GP with minimal corrective devaluations, much less likely. Not even possible if things are as HG has written previously.

          It is difficult, I have the utmost respect for HG and what he’s doing to spread the truth of narcissism, and the sadness over what he has endured as a child. But it still is not right to her, or any other victim, any devaluation, any false hope, false love, any manipulations, which is what he can offer, and nothing more. Thank you for explaining encroaching awareness, it is what I thought.

          Thank you HG, for all you do, I feel terrible for this comment. You are an excellent instructor, this comment, my part in this entire conversation, stems from what I have learned from you. And I am grateful.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thanks for sharing those further thoughts. I’m not imaginative enough to contemplate a lifelong Golden Period with minimal corrective devaluations. If narcissism is what HG says it is, and what we through experience know it is, then there is no such thing. It is a hopeless concept and from my perspective must be done away with using logical thinking.

            We both have the utmost respect for HG, and while elements of this could relate to the past pain we have experienced, I would not be his pupil, and true to others, if I embraced the idea of a long and lasting relationship where both HG and SM could be happy. It is, as you say, about what HG can offer in terms of what SM may be seeking. And ultimately, from HG’s perspective, it’s not about SM. That’s a thought that needs to sink in.

            I totally get your sense of feeling ‘terrible’ which is why I qualified my remarks also with my sense of respect for HG and his teaching. This is not to denigrate that in any way, but to acknowledge that the learning has been effective and I, too, am grateful <3

          2. A Victor says:

            LET, I agree, the idea of lifelong GP is not possible. And you are correct, for him, it is all about him, she is a fuel station, even if this makes me cry. And I also have only gratitude.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, fuel station, gas pump, appliance … I think one thing that also resonates with your thoughts on not being misled into thinking the narcissist can change is also being misled into thinking we could ever be anything more to the narcissist than those things that I have just mentioned. We must hold on to what we know and remember HG’s article about something shiny, bright and new, a blow we’ve all likely been dealt before coming here.

          4. A Victor says:

            I agree.

            Also, to your comment regarding your happiness vs HG’s, I also obtain my “happiness” from things such as knowing I’ve done my best, that I have information correct etc, and it feels more like a sense of satisfaction than happiness, but it drives me. It is variable, as NA said. I “feel” happiness literally when I’m with my grandchildren and all is going well, haha!

          5. Violetta says:

            The problem is the high-functioning narcs can give you the impression that they are worth knowing, even if it all ends badly. You can feel you want your life story to include this person. “I shagged Bill Clinton/Margaret Thatcher/John Lennon,” even if the person isn’t famous like the ones I’ve named, and you’re not going to kiss and tell, not even in a memoir after they’ve croaked and can’t sue you..

            Some people are just larger than life. It’s as if you saw everything in sepia, and suddenly you see the world in color. You never knew it wasn’t full color, because after all, you could tell sepia from black, white, and grey, but now you realize what you thought was color was muddied and dimmed.

            Unfortunately, I experienced all this with Wannabe Playuh-Narc, and the real disillusionment was realizing how petty and mediocre he was. I broke my heart over that?

          6. A Victor says:

            Yes, exactly, and spent decades coddling their opinion of themselves, what a fucking waste of time.

        2. A Victor says:

          LET, just rereading your comment and another thought occurred to me, HG doesn’t do happy, I believe he has said, at least not like we do. And, I believe he is as fulfilled as he can be already, feeling very effective. Therefore, our empath hearts can be happy for him already, right? 🤔😃

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Narcissists don’t do happy.

            Yes, I have been waiting for someone to raise this truth. People often say they want HG to be happy. What they really mean is that they want him to know happiness as they define it (and of course that will differ from one person to another), but that is not something he is capable of nor wants. He has his own standard of what makes his existence worthwhile.

            Over time I have come to see happiness as a concept rather than some absolute the majority has taught us to accept with conviction. I see it as manufactured in that there is no universal definition, but rather it seems to largely depend on what we give focus to. The evidence (to me) being that happiness appears to be fluid. What we once believed to be happiness (in the case of entanglement with a narcissist for example) we now see as illusion.

            We have been conditioned (fairy tales anyone?) to accept that happiness must be attained to give our lives meaning. We want for ourselves this romantic connection we believe every one else has (although there is little evidence to support most people are “happy” in this regard), so it is little wonder that when the illusion (we have been conditioned to believe is real) is presented to us by a narcissist that we accept it and overlook the red flags as just normal bumps in a relationship (something else we have been conditioned to accept). The price of “happiness” that we must “work” through, because it is also widely accepted that relationships worth having are “hard work”.

            I don’t believe anyone or anything can BRING us happiness. It is what we choose to focus on and the resulting feeling of reward, and NOT what is delivered.

            In that way, we can all have it.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated.

            I understand why people want me to be happy (it is their emotional empathy) but that is not required. I am not unhappy either. People would be better off saying they would like for me to always be well-fuelled and they need not be concerned about that because I am exceptionally proficient at ensuring that is the case.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Well, that all sounds very technical, which it probably is from your point of view, HG. We can’t dismiss our emotional empathy, so I appreciate you sharing that thought around why we want you to be happy, and also why that is not required. We come from two different worlds, and having your ‘fuel’ needs satisfied is what reigns supreme for you. Personally, happiness does not reign supreme for me, meaning does. Give me meaning and I will be satisfied. Happiness can be a by-product of that 🙂

            With that thought in mind, and NA’s comment also in mind, I think happiness by all accounts is a by-product, not a means or end in itself. You seek control which gives you fuel and the by-product of that is power. It may be the equivalent of me seeking meaning, that giving me satisfaction and a by-product of that being happiness.

            There is no doubt you are exceptionally proficient at ensuring you are well-fuelled and SM for now is a significant part of your fuel matrix being the IPPS. I can only imagine she is gaining some level of satisfaction from that arrangement and therefore some level of happiness, too.

          4. A Victor says:

            Yes NA! And here I’ve been learning that a healthy relationship will be much less work and much more real, intimate and healthy interactions, without all the crappy feelings from the manipulations, or feeling like it’s never enough! And it is about our focus, not dependent on the other person, or even the situation. You are so right, thank you!

            I realized a while ago that HG is as “happy” as anyone, not contented with his lot, or even accepting if it, but actually thriving because if it and to him, that’s his “happiness”. I also thought, who am I to question that? It only hurts me for SM. But I am happy for him. But I did not connect those thoughts to this conversation until you said all this. It is helpful. Thank you.

            I need to give some more focus to my grandkids!! 😃

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV 🙂

            Nice thought, and you are right when you say HG feels fulfilled, or certainly not like he is missing out on anything. In some ways we also have the good fortune of benefiting from that. If someone said to me would you rather HG was a narcissist or an empath, out of selfishness in this moment I would say ‘narcissist’ because of all I have learned and how many doors it has opened for me. Out of altruism, I would say ’empath’ because I want what his friend in the Cherry Bowl wants for him, to know true joy, real love, honest affection.

            Since that will never be possible, and HG doesn’t feel he needs it, our empath hearts can ‘accept the things we cannot change’ while knowing our love, appreciation, affection and attention will never go to waste <3

          6. A Victor says:


          7. Joa says:

            It was another wonderful dialogue, that I read with great pleasure.

            I remembered talking to “my N” about happiness (we used to compare our own feelings and perspectives quite often).

            For me, there are two kinds of happiness.

            The first, is a violent explosion (“flying under the sky”). State of euphoria, high. I bump into them quite often and don’t need anyone else but my own senses. Although in the company of narcissists it happens even more often and lasts longer (sometimes one word of the narcissist is enough).

            The second, is a very delicate sine wave. Satisfaction and self-satisfaction. Job well done. Close conversation with daughter, sister, friend. Thorough cleaning of the house. Stock up on food. Replaced tires and brake pads on the car. And many others.

            Adequate. When I’m dissatisfied with myself. Too long laziness. I can’t solve something. I can’t “reach” my daughter. I don’t feel like talking to my friend. I’m unhappy, I’m getting down.

            “My N”, hesitating for a moment, said this about his own happiness only: “I usually feel fine.”

          8. A Victor says:

            Oh wow Joa! That was exactly how my ex responded! We didn’t talk feelings a lot, I being rather out of touch with mine until recently, but if I ever asked him how he was, that was it! He couldn’t describe his feelings even when he thought about it. I could always find the feeling, even if I couldn’t find the best word for it, I could describe what it felt like, when pressed, as you have done here. He could not. Thank you, that is very interesting. My parents are/were the same, never about feelings, can’t even if asked. Wow…I had not considered it this way before.

          9. Violetta says:

            The closest we can get to contributing to HG’s “happiness” is spreading the word about Narcsite and his YT channel wherever we can, and most of us are already doing that. These days, I’m seeing references to HG on articles, blogs, and videos about Biden, Amber Heard, the Moan-tecitos, Chrissy Teegan-Taygen, local crime stories, et al, often before I get a chance to post my own. We achieve at least two things:
            1) people who are currently ensnared will learn about this resource;
            2) HG won’t object to the attention.

          10. A Victor says:

            Exactly! And, maybe he gets some fuel when he hears we’ve been talking about him, or is that part of number 2? Either way, I agree.

      2. BC30 says:

        Empaths can escape, even HG is not immune. Escape is within the realm of possibility.

        Purely speculation on my part, but SM is already fine with a relationship where they are apart a considerable amount.

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes, and as long as she’s content with it, they can live long and carry on! Escape when she no longer is would be the best outcome at the point at which.that changes, if it does.

    2. Witch says:

      I agree with your assessment
      Without a sustained devaluation it’s likely SM will interpret corrective devaluation as the usual hiccups in any normal relationship.
      You should see how miserable my partner is when she is hungry – her narc traits come right to the fore. She’s like a different person. I imagine SM might believe that the corrective devaluations are a result of the usual personality clashes that everyone has and external stressors and so she hasn’t caught on yet.

      1. A Victor says:

        I agree, I didn’t even catch on in the sustained devaluation. I thought it was the usual way a relationship, over years, went, that it was normal. Of course, those respites were always there at just the right time to keep me deluded and hanging on.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Witch, 100% agree with your comment re: corrective devaluations, and I would also have seen these as the usual hiccups in any normal relationship, which is another reason these relationships can be sustained for any length to time. We don’t expect to get along all the time and there will be a variety of reasons feeding in to that. Our usual empathic responses will accomodate the occasional ‘hiccups’, which is also what the narcissist relies upon. Their devaluations won’t be seen as such and we will work harder to make things work. Basically they have us in the palm of their hand.

        I appreciate you adding your thoughts which lend so much more understanding at the same time as to why we stay in these relationships.

        LOL to your partner becoming narcy when she is hungry … I think there is a phrase that has been coined for that now – “hangry” 😉 Definitely the narc traits coming to the fore will make someone seem like a different person, so we take the bad with the good and accept none of us is perfect. The problem for the narcissist is that they expect perfection, can only think in black and white, and I seriously doubt SM has been painted white this whole time.

        Having shared that thought, I’d love to know what she might have done to be painted black …

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes, and what the devaluation(s) might have been, to work but still not cause her to realize what is going on.

          I just realized that my ex told me about the ASPD dx probably for the mask slipping scenario. And I fell for it! Just re-listened to “A Glimpse Beneath the Mask”.

  5. NarcAngel says:

    HG and the prosocial aspect. Now there’s a discussion.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    Have there been Super Magnet empaths in the role of your IPPS other than The Shieldmaiden?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, they have been in that position in the fuel matrix.

      1. BC30 says:

        Always back to business.

  7. k mac says:

    What about the shield madien? I don’t understand? Why aren’t you talking to me HG? Should I stop asking questions of you? I mean if you’re not gonna answer I suppose I should save them?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You do not have an automatic entitlement to an answer. Read the rules.

      1. k mac says:

        Of course not, I wouldn’t think so. I just thought that maybe one of questions would have been answered I suppose. Especially since I asked about the shield madien. You answered others about this topic and not mine. So I knew the subject wasn’t the issue. I don’t feel entitled to anything.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Re-read your comment, you contradict yourself.

          1. k mac says:

            Ok 😊

          2. k mac says:

            I was just curious. I have my answer.

          3. k mac says:

            You have helped me exponentially in the past. For that I will always be grateful. I continue to pass your works along to others as well as enjoy your content myself. If you don’t wanna answer my questions so be it.

    2. Bubbles says:

      Dearest k mac,
      Mr Tudor answers WHAT he wants, WHEN he wants and IF he wants.
      You are not singled out k mac, he treats us all the same.
      Narcs play mind games ….this is what they do.
      Keep asking …….he might surprise you one day
      (feeding all these cats take time) 🤣
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Bubbles, “feeding all these cats take time” – classic!

    3. Witch says:

      @ K Mac

      It’s the same for us all of us, don’t take it personally.
      Sometimes HG doesn’t have enough hours in the day to respond.
      Shieldmaiden is HG’s partner and primary source, they are still together. She hasn’t been devalued yet. He said this in a recent interview
      I am still assuming he hasn’t told her he is a narcissist and a psychopath because he wouldn’t want to risk losing his primary source and so she is unaware of his true nature.
      I hope that helps

  8. Joa says:

    Addictive and seductive, intimate speech. I felt that whisper again…

    The last paragraph spoiled the impression. I will never kneel before anyone!!!

    Even when I am lying, I am standing!

    Ha ha ha, narcissist friend from work would to make dirty already 🙂

  9. WiserNow says:

    Beautifully written HG. Great photo too.

  10. Empath007 says:

    Are you still in a relationship with the Shield Madien HG ? My apologies if that’s too personal a question.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am not in a relationship with the Shield Madien.

      1. Violetta says:

        “I am not in a relationship with the Shield Madien.”

        What about the Shield Maiden?
        Or the skjaldmær?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          What of the Shield Maiden?

          1. Violetta says:

            I thought spelling might be significant. You could not be in a relationship with a “Shield Madien,” but you might be with a Shield Maiden.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are correct to pick up on the spelling.

          3. Duchessbea says:

            I Love your wittiness. Pure class.

          4. k mac says:

            What happened? We got hear so much about her. I would love to know.

      2. k mac says:

        That’s too bad. You must have found a speedy replacement? You said you’ve been with the new ipps for 2 and a half years now. Its been 3 since I read the blog last. You were just newly dating. Or so you said 😉 I was really rooting for you too. Im sorry it didn’t work out.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dear k mac,
          There are still together … Mr Tudor was playing word games
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          You can still have faith. HG is still with SM. She is now embedded, no devaluation on the horizon. Career commitments and individual interests mean that they aren’t in each other’s pockets all the time, so the fuel doesn’t become stale. (sensible) HG is successfully putting steps in place to become more pro social, likely because he sees a personal benefit to doing so. (logical)

          It would appear that HG is learning to control / slow down aspects of his narcissism in this respect.

          Narcissism can’t be cured, but with the unique advantage of his additional awareness, can the Ultra control it if he sees a benefit to doing so? I’ll stick my neck out and say…. “Yes. Yes he can.”

          1. A Victor says:

            Of course he can if he sees a benefit to himself to doing so, and it seems he currently is. The question really is, will he continue to see benefit to himself for an extended period of time? We can only hope so for SM’s sake.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            “will he continue to see benefit to himself for an extended period of time?”…..yes he will.

          3. A Victor says:

            I hope you are correct.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think he can. We plan for retirement. Pay into pensions, save, invest, whatever. Our primary concern for the future is being able to look after ourselves financially without being a burden.

            HG has two drivers. Narcissism and psychopathy. HG’s primary concern as he plans for his future, has to be fuel. Fuel is the show stopper. Everything else hinges on the fuel supply. It makes sense then that as HG looks towards his future, that he will factor in changes that will occur to his own fuel matrix. The fuel matrix and the manipulation of that I think is key.

            When the blog began, there was no mention of a Legacy. There is now. HG is looking a long way into the future. The fuel matrix has inevitably shifted over the last 10 years. It will shift again over the next 10 and so on. For example, at some point it will be very difficult to ensnare a new IPPS when you are the old guy in the night club. It’s an exaggerated example as the hunting grounds will also change, but you see my point. The fuel matrix will become less about expansion, more about maintenance.

            HG’s narcissism will drive his need for fuel. His psychopathy might well drive his future planning and control aspect. Whatever needs to happen to ensure fuel I think the psychopathy will ensure it happens.

            I don’t necessarily see the endurance of the relationship as being important to HG because of the relationship itself. I see it as being important from a future planning perspective. HG will not under any circumstances miscalculate there.

            That’s my opinion anyhoo!


          5. A Victor says:


            Yes, I understand and agree with all of that, that would work in favor of it lasting. I am looking at his track record, the fact of the narcissism and psychopathy and their needs, and the knowledge that long term IPPS’s always suffer devaluation. This is what he has taught us. This is what I experienced, and I thought I was happy. These are what weigh in on the other side, the side that says he cannot do it, at least in the GP for the rest of their lives. I am hopeful he can be the exception, if anyone can it is him, but I am also skeptical of it. The minute it no longer serves his purposes to be with her, for whatever reason, it will change, and that is entirely unpredictable.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree those are all valid concerns, absolutely no doubt about it.

            There’s a way of thinking that says if the expectation from others is that you will be bad, then you might as well go ahead and be bad with bells on. Might as well be hung as a sheep than a lamb. So, in my mind, Im never going to say, “No, it can’t be done.” I do however think HG can do it if he sets his mind to it. Plus, it’s another way of further setting himself apart from his brethren.

            We have read about the devaluation of the previous IPPS. HG’s track record is awful, (from our perspective). The difference here isn’t just a new IPPS and more of the same. If HG’s mindset was the same, the outcome would be similar.
            I do think there is something different about SM, but I also think HG’s outlook is shifting. He’s ruthlessly bright. Admits that therapy just makes Greaters and the Ultra more effective. His knowledge of himself his narcissism and psychopathy, plus his victims has grown exponentially over the last 10 years. That changes things and offers alternatives that might not have been apparent before. I suppose for me it’s a case of that was then, this is now.

            Six yrs ago, at the blog’s inception, HG was asking questions of commenters. He was still learning. Now he doesn’t question. He knows how we tick. There might be a t crossed or an i dotted but pretty much he has what he needs I think. His further understanding of empaths is important.

            A consolidation phase of the fuel matrix, as expansive as that is, would tend to necessitate more pro social behaviours. Narcissists don’t improve with age. Narcissistic psychopaths reportedly do. So if that is the case, the psychopathy has to be the driver. To me that says control and forward thinking. We know that the fuel matrix has had to accommodate a career step change already. HG works far less out in the field. Those pipelines are diminished. They have already been replaced with new pipelines. So the fuel matrix shifts. Greaters can go longer without an IPPS because the expansive fuel matrix accommodates that. What if you could cut the fuel provision of the IPPS from 50% to 30% of the total fuel requirement? How would that play out for example?

            Consolidation isn’t required as yet. I think consolidation of the fuel matrix is unavoidable long term. No one can outrun time. If that’s the direction HG is moving towards, logically it would be better to evolve slowly, make small changes gradually, than have to take a run at it later on. Similarly, if there is a way to lower a fuel requirement, or a way to garner fuel with less effort, those would also be motivating factors.

            Really, we can’t possibly know. I’m speculating. HG won’t continue something if there’s no benefit to doing it. He’s still working at becoming more pro social, so there’s a solid incentive there somewhere!


          7. A Victor says:


            I know of the statement, people will do what is expected of them. The difference here is that I would’ve expected different until HG himself convinced me that narcissists can’t change. I didn’t put that crown over his head, he did. And throughout the blog others have reminded me of it, even this weekend. I have stated previously that it would be quite the legacy if he could be the one to do it differently. But I don’t believe he will change, if anything does it will be things around him and perhaps his reaction times, if he can slow things enough. But then we’re back to motivation, which isn’t there except as possibly a test to see if he can, like an experiment. And in the meantime there is a woman in love who is not being loved back.

            I don’t believe SM is different, what I read in Fuel says IPPSs fuel is equal, it is the former IPPSs who have a higher and stronger fuel output. I think it is more what you said, they aren’t in each other’s pockets all the time, she’s busy and independent so her fuel hasn’t become stale as quickly. But what happens when she wants more time with him? At some point that is a possibility. He could be ahead of it by then, so he can handle it, only time will tell. And even if that doesn’t happen, he is still a narcissist, he is still likely to get bored or need negative fuel etc.

            He talks about living on after his death in his book Fuel, 2015.
            He had said he began the blog at the recommendation / suggestion of the good doctors, to benefit his treatment, and most importantly, to establish his legacy. I don’t know specifically when that terminology came to be but I think it was part of his original plan. The blog has evolved, that is clear from reading back over the course of it, he has grown from, with and into it. He is better at what he does now, that was his goal for going into therapy, theblog being past of his therapy.

            I only see his fuel matrix as growing but I don’t see that negating his needs as he has stated them. And I think he’s still a ways out from being concerned about consolidating, if he even intends to do so. I do believe he is evaluating how to keep things going but I don’t think he’s worried about finding new IPPSs at this time. I think his career change was well thought out and the movement we see is part of that change, toasted whatever goal he has, he is in complete control of it, and is ahead of the game. I think he has pipelines in place prior to any changes.

            I am with you, I would never say it cannot be done, but I am going by what he teaches us and until he tells us differently, I will continue to do so. And I will continue to be sad for SM because, as an amazing boyfriend as I’m sure HG is in the GP, she does not realize that it is a contract to him and he cannot love her. I have lived that, it is no life, not really. Not unless he can continue for the rest of her life and do it virtually flawlessly. But will that benefit him?

          8. NarcAngel says:

            And you say you’re not a romantic. Haha.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            Again you make valid points. I agree narcissists can’t be cured.

            The point about SM being different. Yes the fuel of each IPPS is of similar potency and strength, there is no favourite in that respect. During his time on the blog HG has learned more and more about empaths. He had intimate knowledge of 25 IPPS of various schools and cadres when he started. Then add in secondary sources plus those he interacts with as tertiary sources. For every IPPS let’s say a conservative 10 empath secondary sources. Then let’s rotate them out at the same time as the IPPS. That gives us 250 empath secondary sources plus the 25 IPPS. Round it up to 300 for easy reckoning. So in depth knowledge of 300 empaths at the start. That’s a decent sample size. How many voices are there on this blog currently, and over the last six years? Consultations etc. Over 6 yrs, thousands of them. All of their comments moderated. HG’s understanding of the empath in a wide range of scenarios has to have grown massively.

            Greater narcissists prize Super Magnet empaths because amongst other things they bring additional appliances into the fuel matrix. Yet as the Greater ages he sometimes prefers a Carrier cadre. He isn’t recruiting as much. He doesn’t need the Magnet in the same way.

            HG has dated various empaths, various schools and cadres not to mention sub schools. Now he has settled on Super Magnet. He knows that this is the best fit for him. What if actually HG needs a Super Magnet with a strong minority Carrier? Could he now know that that is the case due to the increased knowledge he has of us as empaths? This is what I mean about SM being different, not that she is different in fuel terms but she is perhaps different in empathic make up. I actually wondered at one point if SM wasn’t really Amanda. Not so. However she has very similar characteristics to Amanda. Is HG honing in on exactly what he needs in an IPPS? It’s conceivable I think. I do think there’s something about SM’s make up that perhaps has not been present in the previous IPPS.

            I think the point about SM being unaware of the fact that the man she is with doesn’t love her and never will love her is a different issue. I can say that I think it’s entirely wrong to knowingly con someone in this way. There should be a choice to continue or not to continue. That obviously won’t impact HG and his decision making. SM might be someone who likes her own space, she might be content with the time spent together to remain the same. As you say though, SM is also a variable and will unwittingly pose threats to control.

            You could also argue there is another motivation for making changes to ensure the longevity of the relationship. That’s the legacy. If the readership and viewership knew that SM had entered devaluation, how many would unhook? It would be far more difficult to interact and consult with a person who you know was in the process of devaluing another empath. What about interviews? When that question is posed would HG answer honestly? I can imagine the next question that the interviewer would pose! Readers have been on the blog whilst previous IPPS have been in devaluation and have remained. Readers / listeners come and go. Replaceable. As the numbers grow though that equivalent percentage of people that would unhook, also grows. Everyone has a past. People are less accepting of events taking place in the present.

            Easy to get around for a narcissist. The narcissist would lie. SM would remain in the golden period indefinitely if that was a real concern. Which means, this whole conversation could actually be a moot point! I trust HG to be honest about narcissism and psychopathy. It doesn’t automatically follow that I trust him not to lie about his personal life. As you rightly point out. There is no cure for narcissism.

            I still have to stick by my guns and say I think HG sees a benefit to himself in attempting to ensure the longevity of the relationship, not for emotional reasons but for personal gain.

          10. A Victor says:


            I have also previously done the math, am aware of the opportunities for learning that HG has had. Likewise re: Greaters/Supers, aging and HG honing his desires in an IPPS. I think that HG appreciates the Super because of the challenge, it is a dance, how close he can get to her leaving but not quite crossing that line. A game. And I believe he has found SM to be an interesting dance partner. But nothing more. If SM wants more, less or the same, at some point there will be devaluation, if what HG teaches us is how it really is, all the way around.

            I do not argue, I state and stop, I understand that it is a phrase but not one that I adhere to. It sometimes drives my kids nuts, they sometimes want to but they know that it is a lost cause. I do allow them to have a different opinion or make a different decision than I would though, without judgement. Live and let live.

            It is interesting that you bring up the blog and SM’s sometime probable devaluation. I have also thought of this, recently, you would be surprised I think, if you knew. HG would either say he was no longer discussing that, and there wouldn’t even need to be devaluation for that to occur, or he could lie, or he could walk us through it as a living example of how it happens. There are people who might benefit from that aspect, but he would also lose followers if he were to do so. I’m sure there are other ways he could handle it as well. No one wants to think of someone enduring that and to have someone talking about it publicly would be pain on pain, even if she never knew. I have wondered if it would keep him with her, just so as not to damage his following, how can he get out of it gracefully, at this point? Even more as he gets bigger? I think he is absolutely unconcerned about such a thought. Another possibility, he could decide to tell her all and see where the chips fall. If she is a typical empath, she would probably love him anyway and stay to work on it with him. Could he do that, tell her, give up that much power? Who knows. It would also hurt tremendously if she fully came to understand that he can’t love her, that he has done the things he has to other IPPSs, that he has this huge secret life etc.

            I expect this conversation is a moot point. My biggest point, in my previous couple of comments, was that he says they can’t change, he can’t change, won’t change, sees no benefit from changing, it is only others that desire he change, we have discomfort with him acting as he does, but he doesn’t care about changing. Part of me needs him not to change, as I said recently, if he can, why can’t they all? What have I studied this for? At the same time, on a personal level, it would be great for him if he could change, even though he disagrees with that, that is my thinking imposed on him. So, we’re back to no change. You and I see the honesty/potential dishonesty regarding narcissism vs his personal life in the same way.

            I believe you are correct that he sees gain in keeping it as is for now. I am not convinced that will continue indefinitely however. And certainly not in the Golden Period.

            Most of the reason I approached this conversation was that I saw some hope being stated and I have understood that hope is something we avoid with regard to the narcissist, for our own sake, for our own protection. I don’t want people to be misled here because of our wishes for HG to be “happy”, our version, even though those are our wishes.

            I am a person who is really fine to agree to disagree, that is how I do conflict and it works for me. I have said more here than I am comfortable with, I hope there are not ruffled feathers over it, that was not my intent.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Romantic? Moi?!


          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            First of all, just to clarify what I meant with ‘ You could argue’. That was me turning things over and just talking from the opposite side or angle if you like. Not you, AV, could argue, or that you, AV are arguing. Not at all! I’m just turning things around looking at it one way and then the other.

            My view on this is based on me placing HG in a different box due to intelligence and awareness. Take Sam Vaknin, ( second time I’ve mentioned him recently, sorry haha!) he has been married to Lydia for 20 years. I can see how that dynamic works but in many ways see Vaknin as more dishonest than HG. It’s a strange set up, and a strange view on my part. I think it’s based on the fact that I don’t believe Vaknin is making any changes at all. He lacks half of the puzzle. He doesn’t understand empaths at all. He’s all book based, which definitely has its place, less experience based. I don’t see true understanding there if that makes sense?

            HG has both sides of the coin. Understanding of the empath in finest detail, plus understanding of himself. Vaknin understands his condition, he doesn’t understand himself. In this way, I view HG as an anomaly. I wouldn’t believe HG if he stated, “I’m cured.” Or “I have learned to care about SM.” No. You haven’t at all. I do think as the blog has progressed though, being more pro social is definitely possible. Only due to a unique awareness, which I think also ties in with the switch to ‘Ultra’.

            So in my mind, it’s a one case only scenario that can’t be replicated. It can’t offer a cure, it can’t be applied to another narcissist. I’m just curious AV, that’s all. I’m playing with the concept of pro social and trying to imagine how that looks, how it might be achieved and the motivation behind it.

            I would hate to think my comments offer hope for change to other empaths with their own narcissists, or hope for an everlasting golden period etc, no. I don’t believe there is any hope in that context. It’s more, “He’s up to something and I want to know what it is and how he’s doing it.” Haha! Basically, I’m being nosy!

            Interesting you thought about how the impact of SM’s devaluation might impact the ‘business’ side. You are thinking along very similar lines to me there.

            I don’t see this as an argument in any way. I apologise if I came across that way. I’m just bouncing ideas around. Similar to the ‘how empaths are made’ conversation. I don’t know, I just throw my ideas into the pot and see what drops out!


          13. A Victor says:


            I understand the meaning of “you could argue”. It is not a phrase that I use.

            I’m sure we are not the only people who have considered how devaluation would likely affect the blog and HG’s other endeavors.

            I am unconcerned about your thoughts about HG and the pro-social, Sam V etc, though if they are speculation, and are presented as such, they are fine. I have a little more time for conjecture of topics that are not as important to the understanding that narcissists are dangerous, such as how empaths come to be.

            What I do care about is that people who come to the blog see the truth and I do not believe that saying, “no devaluation on the horizon” without the addition of “but that could change at any moment” or similar, is being forthcoming about the realities of NPD.

            Or, “HG is successfully putting steps in place to become more pro social”– this is hope giving, it just is. How do you know he’s successfully doing so? What I read was that he sees no benefit to himself for doing so, therefore, how do we measure success? Based on the blog and consults, it appears he is successfully doing so, but it is stated as fact, therefore, as possibility. If he can do it, it only stands to reason in the hurting empath heart that maybe theirs can too. If he can do it, what I have devoted my life to for the past year is moot. Regarding this, I don’t care that he’s intelligent and aware, he has said they cannot change, being intelligent and aware does not offset the NPD, it makes it more dangerous.

            Another, “It would appear that HG is learning to control / slow down aspects of his narcissism…”, again, hope giving, if he can do this, why can’t my mother, or all of our ex’s, our children etc? I understand that they can’t, that is not the point I am trying to make.

            “can the Ultra control it if he sees a benefit to doing so? I’ll stick my neck out and say…. “Yes. Yes he can.””, you affirmed, according to your opinion, that he can do something he’s already doing. My question was “will he continue to see benefit to himself for an extended period of time?”. Since we’ve already established that he sees no real benefit to himself for the less malign approach, we both began this as an errant question. But, the extended period of time is where the question really lies. None of us have the answer to that, HG doesn’t even have the answer to that, but, what he has been teaching since the inception of the blog is that the IPPS is ALWAYS devalued. Always. “As sure as the sun rises in the East and we are all going to die, yes, even me.”- HG Therefore, to say anything else is not accurate and could be, albeit unintentionally, misleading.

            Even if he can continue that relationship indefinitely, would you want it if you were being devalued? I know I would not. Never again.

            As I said previously, my intent was not to have conflict TS, not at all, I have been quite upset over this conversation, wanting to feel heard in it and wanting it to be over. I am not speculating, I know, I have read it, heard it, lived it, they cannot change, HG will not change. He may be able to alter some things but that is stated to people carefully, we don’t know who is coming here, who needs the cold, hard logic and nothing else, to help them understand and take action. That is all I have been trying to say, I do understand where you’ve been coming from and know that you would never want to mislead any empath. I may have read your comment incorrectly, according to you or others, that is fine, it is still how I read it. If it was an incorrect interpretation, I apologize. HG may alter some things that he teaches as time goes on, to fit anything new that comes along, but in the meantime I will stick with what he is teaching currently.

          14. NarcAngel says:

            I see no reason that feathers would be ruffled, but if they are, who cares? They are your thoughts and opinions and you are free to give them. Reasonable people will generally see alternate points of view to be elements of discussion and things to “consider” with no expectation of acceptance.

            I am always interested in the differing comments about HG and SM’s relationship. I find that it shows me more about the empaths involved in those discussions than that of HG and SM. Perhaps that might have originally been the point of her introduction has been a thought. People certainly seem invested but to what end I wonder. These discussions have given me things to consider and I remain open to others, but my opinion remains unchanged currently. That is because HG teaches us to “go to the evidence”. I have found little evidence but much empathic hope and projection to date.

            I have enjoyed reading what you and TS have offered on the subject.

          15. A Victor says:

            Thank you for your comment, you have (once again) brought clarity for me, and a bunch of new ideas to ponder. Much appreciated.

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your comment. You’re exactly right. No ruffled feathers here. I don’t expect everyone to agree with my comments!

            I might put on some Michael Buble in a bit. Haha.

          17. A Victor says:

            I am glad you were unconcerned by our conversation.

            Enjoy the music.

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m sorry to hear our discussion has upset you. That wasn’t my intention. The fact that my ideas on the pro social aspect and what this means for SM are different to yours, doesn’t mean I wasn’t listening to you. It just means I view things differently in this specific case.

            To me it was simply an exchange of views. I wasn’t concerned by it personally. However, I wouldn’t have continued with it, if I had known you were finding it upsetting. My views on it aren’t worth upsetting someone over.


          19. A Victor says:


            There is no resolution as to you and I agreeing or not on the pro social and how it will affect SM, I would caution against making that determination. I am simply in wait and see mode and as such would never tell other bloggers here that it is working and no devaluation is in sight. First, we don’t know that it’s working, except as HG says so, and as you said, he may not be completely forthcoming about that. Second, we don’t know how other readers will take what we say, what it might say to them with regard to their situation, or what it says to anyone else who comes along and reads it. Therefore I would not say such to others here. Obviously you can if you so wish, I was simply trying to make you consider the possible outcomes of doing so.

            I was not debating the pro social, I was attempting to discuss the presentation of speculation. In my opinion, here, because of what the blog is, what HG teaches, speculation needs to be delineated as such very clearly, or it runs the risk of misleading. That was all I was trying to say. I likely could’ve and should’ve approached it in a more direct manner, I shy away from that as explained below, it would be good for me to learn to do it more directly anyway. I am largely uninterested in debating HG’s pro social, which I view as having power to distract from the truth of what HG teaches, except with the source. I typically don’t read such debates, I don’t like to fill my head with ideas unless I know they are the correct ones, not a better or worse approach, just different from yours. I do a bit more, as previously stated, with topics that I view as more for fun, ie- how empaths came to be. But even then, I am researching and attempting to find facts, not just thinking in my head and writing it out here (not saying you do this either). Otherwise, it is all pure conjecture, a waste of time for me to engage in. Also, as previously stated, I jumped in here only because I saw statements that I felt could be misleading, yet being stated as fact.

            I do not jump into things easily, I hate conflict, I only do it when I feel very strongly about something. Knowing that my comment would likely be perceived as controversial, I decided to say it anyway, in part to exercise my conflict muscle, if you will. (See above for the bigger part.) This is where my passive aggression shows itself, why I approached it in the way I did and not more directly. It is extremely uncomfortable for me to knowingly engage in anything that might prove a conflict and the PA makes me feel safer. I am working on that as we speak, here and also in my real life, with clearly still more work to do. You see, it is deeply ingrained in me that my questions will be put down, my thoughts will be debated and criticized, directness will be mocked, every single time. It is an entrenched mindset that I must work to overcome if I am ever to have anything truly healthy. Anyway, I took the leap all on my own, whatever I have felt about it has been my own doing, no need for you to apologize. I may jump in again with something I feel strongly about, in the future, not with you necessarily TS, but somewhere with someone. If so, I will be a bit stronger for having jumped in here, and for that I thank you. I also thank you for the last year plus of comments you have written to me that have directed me toward the truth of what HG teaches, you have been hugely beneficial to my progress.


          20. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truthseeker and AV,
            I’ve really enjoyed reading both your comments and perspectives … very interesting
            In depth discussions like these are most informative and the two of you have shared more thoughts and ideas we otherwise may not have thought of
            I personally did not sense any ruffling of feathers

            When all said and done …. it’s always all about the prime aims……. fuel, character traits and residual benefits

            Thank you lovelies, don’t stop what you’re doing
            As always
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          21. A Victor says:

            Thank you Bubbles, I am glad you enjoyed reading our conversation. 💕

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I should perhaps clarify that the Michael Buble joke was in reference to the “and you say you’re not romantic. Haha” comment higher up.

          23. k mac says:

            That’s wonderful! Thanks for answering ❤

          24. Violetta says:


            I starting reading here regularly only in 2019, so I haven’t seen HG’s work evolve. Is there a quick-n-dirty method to get to his first posts and look at his conversations with Tudorites more or less in order?

            (Or if the Narchivist is out there somewhere….)

          25. A Victor says:


            Here is the beginning, I believe. I have it in a tab on my favorite bar. I read there when HG takes time off and I need a break from work, or something similar.


          26. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            “Is there a quick-n-dirty method to get to his first posts and look at his conversations with Tudorites more or less in order?

            (Or if the Narchivist is out there somewhere….)”

            All the way down at the bottom of the page you see “Golden archives”, there you can select the month, the blog started on 31 August 2015.
            Another method is in every posted thread you can always click on older versions, I do this standard, I always go to the oldest version available, I love the archives!
            The conversations there are fantastic. And the older artwork is also interesting.

            So there are two ways. Very structured via the Golden archives search bar, or randomly by clicking in every article in the older versions.

            @ TS en AV, loved your conversation, I agree a lot with you AV on the importance of not losing ourselves in wishful thinking.


          27. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I do it by clicking on home, scrolling down to ‘archives’ near the bottom and selecting year and month from the drop down box.
            I sometimes read there if the blog goes quiet. The Cluehunters have researched past comments far more extensively so might know of a finer search method.


          28. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You’re welcome. I should draw your attention to other comments on this thread so that you get a rounded view. Mine is just one opinion.


          29. Leigh says:

            I’m sorry TS. I’m on the same page as AV here. I don’t think its helpful to say to KMac to have faith that it will work out for Mr. Tudor & SM. I personally don’t want it to work out for them. I apologize for that Mr. Tudor. I know its not any of my business. I just mean, why would any empath root for a narcissistic entanglement to work out? TS, I think you have the rose colored glasses on. SM deserves to be loved, just like we all do. For me, its really that black and white. He can’t love her. Even if there’s never a sustained devaluation, there are ALWAYS corrective devaluations. Every time she wounds or challenges him, there will be a corrective devaluation. That’s not fair to her. Now could Mr. Tudor manipulate in a benign way to achieve his goal. Of course he can. He’s the Ultra. But its still a manipulation and he still doesn’t have the capacity to love. I am beyond grateful to Mr. Tudor and if narcissism could be cured, we would be having a very different conversation. It can’t be cured though and this conversation proves how susceptible empaths are to the manipulations of a narcissist. I remember a question you asked Mr. Tudor. I’m going to paraphrase. It went something along the lines, “In regards to being more pro-social, from the narcissistic perspective, how do you plan on achieving it.” Mr. Tudor’s response was, “less malign manipulations”. When I first read that, my first thought was, “Oh, he really wants to try to be a nice guy.” I had a twinge of hope. The empath in us always wants to see the good but sometimes the good just isn’t there.

            TS, I have the utmost respect for you. I just wanted to put my two cents in.

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Bubbles,

            Thank you, Im glad you found the discussion interesting.

            I’ve been watching the Cleo Smith case with interest. I’m so very glad they found her. We get primed to fear the worst when we hear about stories like hers. Thankfully this time, there is a happy ending.


          31. Leigh says:

            TS, I just thought about something else. Sometimes I still have the rose colored glasses on too. Candace Marie had made a comment about being happy that SM wasn’t in devaluation yet. I responded that I was happy about that too. Again that just proves how susceptible we are to the manipulations of the narcissist. In that moment, I was happy but the more I thought about it, the more I questioned it. Is it really a good thing?

          32. Violetta says:


            Thank you! Will do.

          33. Witch says:

            I have the opposite view
            I don’t hope the golden period continues… imagine being with someone for several years believing the relationship is genuine only to be fly kicked from the pedestal into devaluation.
            Personally I’d rather be devalued early (or recognise the red flags early) so I know what I’m dealing with and can escape before I’m that invested. But that’s me. I can’t speak for SM and I don’t care what’s good for a narcissist

          34. A Victor says:

            It is a quandary for me. If it’s not SM, it’s someone else. I do not feel it is fair to her nor to any other. I do feel as you do though regarding myself.

          35. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Please don’t apologise. I totally see your view on it. You want to be loved in a relationship so you want the same for SM. There’s no need to apologise for that.

            I look at the discussion in two parts. The HG part. The SM part.

            First of all the HG part. I realised during the course of this discussion that I’ve been looking at this with the wrong emphasis. If we ask the question, Can HG be more pro social with,“ less malign manipulations”? I think we have to look at motivation. The motivation of a narcissist is fuel and control based primarily, plus character traits and residual benefits. We know what happens in a relationship with a narcissist. Many here have lived it more than once. If HG was a narcissist only then we know how it would go in the end.

            HG is a narcissistic psychopath. A psychopath with narcissism. To understand if HG can be more pro social, meaning not causing harm to others around him, then we need to look firstly at how a psychopath is motivated, then add the need for fuel which comes from the narcissism. To ignore HG’s psychopathy is essentially to ignore half of his personality, and the stronger half at that. When we look at studies conducted to ascertain pro social tendencies in psychopaths or those with high psychopathic traits, and the motivation behind them, there is some research that points very strongly to the type of psychopath HG is and reasons why the blog, YouTube etc would benefit him as an exercise in becoming more pro social. HG did say that the blog was part of him learning to be more pro social. (words to that effect). So in that sense I would have to say that part of his pro social endeavours have indeed been successful.

            To understand if the pro social element could translate to HG’s private life it would seem logical to use the same set of motivators specific to HG as a psychopath and look at how they could be used to bring about pro social behaviours similar to the blog exercise but in a personal context.

            The SM part. This is a vast question in itself I think. It very much depends on how each individual views relationships. This is where NA’s comment made me smile. I used to be romantic when I was younger. I fell for the narcissistic narrative like everyone else. I am not romantic now. I am very pragmatic when it comes to relationships. What you desire from a relationship Leigh, will be different from me, from your friend etc etc. There are differences in expectation. Part of the expectation will hinge on what we see as being attainable. There are cultural differences. Differences that come with age etc. Any number of views and approaches before we even begin to look at sexuality. Different expectations of relationships from different people, all of them equally valid. Empaths carry the love devotee trait and to varying degrees. I have it but it’s one of my weaker traits. My view of love and yours might be vastly different taking just one example. Love is a priority for you as you have stated, it is less of a priority for me.

            What is key for me as regards SM and HG is honesty. I don’t know SM. I don’t know her priorities. She is now in the situation that she is in. What I do believe is that at some point, when pro social steps can be demonstrated, SM has the right to know. She should be given a choice to continue or not to continue. This is why I asked HG in the last Q&A if SM had been introduced to the good doctors. This would illustrate commitment to the process of becoming pro social. HG’s response was ,” There will be more information on that in due course TS.” What he didn’t say, and what I suspected he might say was, “ No. I am not an idiot.”

            It is my belief that we can’t put our respective views of what a relationship is or should look like onto SM. Only she can know what is right for her.

            That’s just my view. There are numerous other views that will likely conflict with it. We are all empaths but equally, we are all different.

          36. Leigh says:

            TS, I’m not a romantic either and the love devotee trait is one of my lowest also. But I’ve never experienced true, empathic, genuine love. At least not from a partner. And even though my love devotee trait is low, it must be important to me on some level. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I’ve probably buried that piece of me.

            As for SM, I agree that it should be her decision. But I fear Mr. Tudor won’t give her that choice. That means he’s giving her control. I can’t imagine he would ever do that.

          37. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I fear that telling her now still isn’t giving her free choice, she’s already in love with him. It would have to be done at the outset to really give absolute free choice. And if that were done, possibly few would respond favorably, from HG’s perspective. Although, my ex did tell me he’d been diagnosed, albeit unofficially due to his age, with ASPD, fairly early on and I blew it off. I didn’t understand the enormity of what ASPD was or I might not have. Which points to educating people. Also, he was so sweet and charming that I thought they must’ve diagnosed him incorrectly. So being up front may not be a deterrent for uneducated targets.

          38. Leigh says:

            Very true, AV. If any of us knew in the beginning where we’d end up, we would have made very different decisions.

          39. Leigh says:

            TS, sometimes I’m like a dog with a bone. I apologize for not being able to let it go but I know you can understand that so I just want to say address a couple of other things. This whole conversation started because you said to Kmac to have faith with regards to Mr. Tudor & SM’s relationship.
            Thats the piece I can’t get passed. I know not everyone wants love. But what about respect? Doesn’t she deserve that?
            Don’t we all? Its impossible for Mr. Tudor to genuinely respect her. In the golden period there may be the appearance of respect but that’s just to suit his needs. It’s not genuine. Once she wounds or challenges him, he’ll show her how much he doesn’t respect her.

            As for being more pro social. I have no doubt Mr. Tudor can be more pro social. But remember, he’s pro social because he’s learned from us and other empaths. He doesnt have emotional empathy and so he had to learn and acquire it from others.

          40. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            You’re welcome lovely TS
            Yes, everyone here is elated that little Cleo was found safe n well ….it has dominated the news here
            I’m surprised it was someone indigenous, I take it more will be revealed … sounds like a lot of mental issues going on
            Interesting how the court of public opinion immediately accused the parents without getting the facts first ….. that’s social media for ya…..impatient lot !

            Bit like the ‘ Windrush generation ‘ in the UK (British political scandal) We just finished watching the Netflix movie ‘Sitting in Limbo” based on a true story (accusing an innocent victim) without all the facts first ….typical
            Shocking absolutely shocking, totally incomprehensible !!!!! 😱
            Theresa May has a lot to answer for ……but hasn’t ….. narcissist !!!
            All those people and families involved should be compensated for the rest of their lives and some ……. they desperately need Kenneth Feinberg (attorney for the 9/11 victims)
            Boy, was that a well kept secret !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you so much for your comment. I understand better now where you are coming from. X

            You and I have discussed before, your dislike of conflict and your discomfort of putting your ideas across and the associated fears and past history that accompanies that. I regret not having been more mindful of that when continuing the discussion. I see a comment left with my name on it and I answer. It’s worse than a text message from a narc. Maybe not quite as bad, but I hate not answering fully when someone has taken the time to comment.

            Since my last consult I have been very focussed on the psychopathy side of things. A comment HG made threw me a little. A lot actually. A subject I knew nothing about. Psychopathy. I’m always so well prepared too! It threw me, so my approach was to ensure I wouldn’t be thrown again going forward. Off I went on a jaunt into the world of psychopathy. I’m finding it fascinating. So my focus during our discussion was turned very much to that. Why HG’s motivation might be different, how the narcissism sits within the psychopathy. ‘More pro social’, what that means, how it might be achieved etc etc. I won’t repeat it all again.

            Your focus was on the concern that false hope was being offered to readers who might see my comments at a later date and read them as an indication of hope for change with their own narcissists. I do understand your concerns there. I can state here again clearly and for the record. Whatever the outcome of HG’s relationship with SM I fully endorse and agree with HG’s teaching. There is no cure for narcissism. There is no hope that your narcissist will change. Devaluation is inevitable. The best and only course of action is to GOSO. The best road to recovery is to read and implement HG’s work. The narcissist I was ensnared by will always be the same and further interaction with him is also pointless. I wholeheartedly believe that all of the above is correct and based on what I have learned here.

            If you have concerns AV, I would always encourage you to voice them. You are caring, respectful and considered in your comments. I really appreciate and enjoy all of the discussions we have here on the blog x.

            As for any discussions about SM and HG going forward I will keep my thoughts on it to myself unless in private forum so as not to mislead new readers in any way. I am more than practiced in keeping my thoughts to myself in my real life, I am content do do that in this context also.

            Unless, I see a comment with my name on it! Haha. I’ll unhook from the thread.


          42. A Victor says:

            Well TS, I was clearly showing a one track way of thinking here. I was so focused on my point that I missed the psychopathy aspect you were looking at, until I read your reply to Leigh. Going back I do see it in some of your comments to me, not strongly but it’s there, I do miss the obvious ssometimes. While it would not have altered the point I was trying to make, I could’ve spoken into it perhaps. I was also dismissing it in your comments in part because we’re on a blog about narcissism. Maybe some time we can discuss HG’s psychopathy, it is something I have studied also, because of my ex, and I do find it interesting. We’ll just make sure everyone knows when we’re speculating 😂

            I would hope that you will continue to share your thoughts, they are good for learning, I also have enjoyed our interactions on the blog, very much. So please, keep letting those brain-thoughts out! 💕

          43. Witch says:


            I see your point, if it isn’t SM it will be someone else so there’s no ideal situation

          44. A Victor says:


          45. Joa says:

            TS, I am amazed by your idealization of the current HG relationship 🙂 You have a great desire to make it come true 🙂

            I will only refer to one thing – a conscious choice in which both sides know what they are facing. My mother’s relationship with my stepfather was like this. It lasted 17 years. It was just a deal. Mom changed the environment, socially advanced, financial security, a better future for her and for us, as children. He acquired 3 people of his own. He was the king and the only decision maker. He exercised undivided rule.

            The first 5 years – it was beautiful. Wonderfully! He was the best dad you could ever imagine (!!!). Pretty good husband. Then it started to go bad.

            Unfortunately, no one took into account, that my sister and I are growing and gaining individuality, that we are curious about the world, that we want our own ways.

            When we started to sneak out of the kingdom, introduce new elements, there was a fire.

            The layout is great – as long as nothing changes in it. If the external and internal factors remain the same (under control). Unfortunately, this is impossible in real life. This kaleidoscope turns constantly.

            Time changes everything and constantly. Flexibility is essential (also control flexibility).

            Our stepfather lost his kingdom, because he wanted everything. He could have a great deal, if he redirected control to slightly different aspects.

            But take it easy, he already has a new kingdom. Sympathy for the 5th wife. Or maybe he finally learned something? He is already 83 years old. I think his perspective may have changed.

            Digression: “My N” eagerly listened to the stories about my father. I’m sure he took over a lot of “tricks” and is now doing them. Unfortunately, I gave him excellent solutions myself (without seeing who he is).

          46. A Victor says:

            Hi Joa, I wasted 5 years in my first relationship, thankfully only one married to him, with a disturbed man, narc or not I don’t know, but 23 years total with a confirmed narc. Spinning my wheels the entire time. I am now in a situation that I got into with another narc, my mother, without the understanding of what she was and what the results would be. Needless to say, I struggle with anger and frustration over my life being wasted in such a manner, at my parents for setting me up for all of this. I always try to take into account that everything happens in the timing that it is meant to happen in, I am here now, so I must move from this point and try to let go of the anger, the past. I am better for it when I do but it is not easy. Your comment made me think of my ex, stepfather to my oldest, and how things seemed so great early on, lies of course, on his part and accepting lies on mine. It was never truly great. Anyway, that’s why I am replying, it made me think of my own past, and hurt again for my children.

          47. BC30 says:

            I make it a point to remember that it *IS* possible to escape–even from HG. SM is a Super. IJS.

          48. Joa says:

            AV, you should work on changing your perspective. You will not change the past and the facts. You can change your view of them – just to feel at peace.

            In my opinion, you haven’t wasted your life (what kind of concept is that?).

            You cannot idealize empaths, as if they are perfect as opposed to the narcissists (those monsters). Do you think a relationship with an empath is a storm of happiness, no quarrels, and eternal love? Relationships are difficult and changeable.

            You have children and grandchildren from your relationships. You have a great deal of experience and a sense of yourself (currently).

            I am sure that during these years you have experienced many beautiful moments. You loved.

            You should focus on what was good (although I sometimes fly away too much this way :)). Frustration and anger are terrible, don’t focus on it 🙂

            I cannot think about those years with my stepfather any differently. He has become for me, a six-year-old child, the whole world. He protected, held my hand, he enjoyed us the best in the world. “Daddy, daddy, please tell a story about how you were small and stupid” – I can’t help but smile 🙂 He loved to tell stories, it was like HG fairy tales. Our favorite was a series of fairy tales about his own childhood. He was a great builder of tension. They were so fun and fancy 🙂
            Aha ha ha, I remember the one in which, as a young boy, he jumped out of the outdoor pool and the water grabbed his panties and his ass was shining like a full moon 🙂 We cracked with laughter and rolled on the floor under his legs, holding our bellies 🙂
            These are the little things that built the whole thing 🙂

            Yes, later he showed a different face. Terrible. As if he could not stand the fact that he is no longer “the only” for us…

            But those years together, jumping by the hand of sea waves with him, walking in the mountains, perfect defense of me against an aggressive friend at school (he was so smart). I liked it when he painted for us what we wanted (he was an architect, he had great talent). I liked it when he designed our dream rooms for us. I have so many beautiful memories in my head that really happened. This was my world. It was my life.

            But yes – he too was so close, yet far away.

            Ah, Dad, Dad, it’s a pity. These rules, more and more.
            But I am grateful for all the good things you have given. I will not forget. I remember. We both remember.

            AV, don’t be regret. Waste of time. Catch good moments 🙂

            You didn’t waste anything, you lived what life brought.

            Yes, wounds in children – that’s the worst.

          49. A Victor says:

            Aww, Joa, thank you for this very sweet comment! It shows your care, you empathic side! Don’t worry, I am generally an optimist, loving my life and seeing the blessings I have been granted. Here, sometimes when new things have come up, it puts me back a bit, but it doesn’t last. Had you been here a year ago, up until probably Aug this year, you would’ve seen me “crashing” every week or two at least! I have been and continue to be, so grateful for the other bloggers here, who have helped buoy me up through it all. And, your comment is the same, and also a bit of a push to take action, I do appreciate that. I am already feeling better, since I wrote that comment one day ago, I never stay down for too long. But, I will assess my situation in light of your comment and see where I can improve, thank you so much, your caring is encouraging.

            Your story of your father is hilarious. That happened to me once at a busy wave pool in in a neighboring state we were visiting, bending down to tend to my then toddler, completely oblivious that my bottoms were around my ankles, haha, my kids saw it from a way off and shouted to me, they still roll with laughter at the memory! It was very embarrassing! And I was a full-fledged adult! 😳🙄😂🤣

            One thing, I don’t think I idealize a relationship with a non-narc, I am aware that there will always be differences between individuals. But, I do believe that those differences are handled in a much different way than with a narc, and also that there are fewer of them, since there are no fuel needs in the equation. HG and others here have led me to the conclusion that it is so, and I believe, because there would be emotional empathy in both parties for the other, that it would be much easier, much more peaceful and productive for both he and I. If I think differently right now, I will give up on any hope for any future relationship at all, I cannot, will not, deal with the crap like I have all these years with another romantic narc. I would rather be alone for the rest of my life. So I will cling to the hope that it will be better with a non-narc, if one should ever come along and things would go that direction.

            Thank you again sweet Joa, I am truly touched by your comment, it gives me a bit of insight into what my children may have felt growing up. 🥰

          50. Joa says:

            AV, so I hope you will find the person you want!

            Your story at the pool made me laugh. She was real, ha ha ha 🙂

            My stepfather used to tell made up stories. He was always a warlike boy in them, who got into various troubles 🙂

        3. Violetta says:

          Thanks to all who have told me how to get to the older posts. I definitely want to look at the earliest conversations, to see how HG’s interactions have changed.
          I also want to look at the earliest appearances of the Fly-Bys, to see if my suspicions are correct, and they haven’t changed at all. I’m guessing the Fly-Bys are at the levels HG has said are incapable of evolving. Greaters would just go away and start their own blog or whatever.

      3. Empath007 says:

        My apologies about the spelling. I only ask b/c I haven’t seen an article pertaining to that relationship in a while. Thank you.

      4. k mac says:

        Sorry, maiden

  11. k mac says:


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