The Heyoka Empath

219 thoughts on “The Heyoka Empath

  1. Sally says:

    Oh jeez…some people. I get tired of some of the comments suggesting that because one is aware they are heyoka empath yet they happen to tell a few people in their close circle WHO THEY ARE which would explain things to them – that they are narcissists for merely making mention. That’s a load of crap. I don’t go around broadcasting that I’m a heyoka empath but a couple people know….what the hell else are you going to tell them that expains some of your behaviors if you know these people a long while? Nothing wrong with self awareness and informing people if you so desire to give a broader understanding of who you are. Which is better than what a narcissist does which is NEVER admit who they are like the cowards they all are.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Sally, RE: “Nothing wrong with self awareness and informing people if you so desire to give a broader understanding of who you are”. Thank you for sharing those words of courage / wisdom / morale-boosting = empowerment, it can give some people some confidence to either, a) speak up for themselves, or b) improve / increase their self-esteem within themselves.

  2. Isabelle says:

    Hello HG,
    Just a question please, that came to mind: is it quite common for empaths to be self-righteous? In my country, it’s more the normals that are and flaunt it.
    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Empaths are not self-righteous.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I am

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Obviously I’m kidding by the way.

        2. A Victor says:

          Hahaha, Alexissmith!! I actually thought that too! At times…:)

          1. Another Cat says:

            Isn’t it a classic empathic trait to believe we have all of that selfrighteousness + forgetting all the empathic actions we take.

            Once I complain ed to a friend about this and she said: Have you lost your memory, Cat? You just helped an old man carrying some groceries and last week you helped a dog?

            It is a bit like narcissists thinking they are empathic, I guess.

          2. A Victor says:

            Oh wow! That makes perfect sense! Thank you Another Cat!

          3. Joa says:

            Another Cat, exactly!
            My friends very often laugh at my moral dilemmas and say, that I have to be led on a “bad path”, because I behave as if from another world 🙂

            They “shakes” me, when I feel dissatisfied with myself, because I alleged have hurt, offended or hurt someone. Even if that person is often nasty.

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Are you? See, I’m not. I’m just an extraordinarily nice person and people are blessed to have one such as me as the moral compass for their lives.

          (I just wanted to give that a test run to see how it felt. I honestly don’t know how the narcs manage it. Haha!)

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahaha…🤣… Love it!

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahahaha love it TS! that made me laugh so much xx

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha 😜

          4. Leigh says:


        4. Leigh says:

          Alexis, to me you don’t come off that way at all. I view self righteous as a negative and you have always been very understanding of me and my whole situation. I wouldn’t use self righteous to describe you at all. You’re too kind and understanding.

          1. Awww thanks Leigh – that means loads that you can see that xxx

        5. Isabelle says:

          I don’t think you are, Alexis.
          I asked HG the question because I couldn’t believe what I read somewhere here (don’t ask me who wrote it, I don’t keep tabs on who says what, so I “forgive and forget” at the speed of lightning): that those who were not vaccinated could die. I found it shocking.

      2. Isabelle says:

        Didn’t think so.
        Thank you for your reply, HG.

  3. vandenboss says:

    What about the ‘dark empath’ that we hear about the last few years? The way its been described sounds a little contradictory to me. Having empathy but not being hold back by it in any way.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Manifestation of the Mid Range Narcissist.

  4. alexissmith2016 says:

    Yes, I think empaths can adapt to the environment some what but I don’t believe as much as I have by finding this site. My change is massive. I would have been doing it blindly and failing miserably and of course still caught up with ET.

    Your comments about me are so so lovely. It’s amazing the perspective you have of me is far kinder than I have I’ve myself hahah ans that’s not in a self flagellating kind of way either. And yes, I couldn’t leave a narc to die on the streets or anything. Nor would I knowingly do anything really harmful (some bits of fun should the opportunity arise). And I agree with you, I can still give credit where it’s due.

    It’s so sweet you remember that comment I made to you. Wow! Xx

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      I think we can often pick out real kindness in others more than we would notice it in ourselves, which is exactly as it should be.


      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        I think you have a really good point TS – ooh WP permitted me to see your reply xx

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Haha Alexis,

          I reckon you are bribing the WordPress imps!

      2. BC30 says:

        I read what you wrote about psychopaths here, then I happened to stumble onto this:

        The character, Anton Chigurh, in the film No Country For Old Men named the Most Realistic Depiction of a Psychopath by an independent group of psychologists in the Journal of Forensic Sciences.

        THAT MOVIE SCARED THE EVER-LIVING FUCK OUT OF ME. 🙈 FOR REAL IT WAS HORRIFIED I couldn’t move. I was transfixed and it felt so strange, almost like a night terror.

        I will never watch it again. I’m into a bunch of weird macabre shit. I am a huge horror film fan–but only supernatural and cosmic because gore bores me and I dislike torture, but Anton gave me nightmares.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I watched one of those montages too. Heath Ledger as The Joker was number one on mine. James Fallon was on the panel. Movie clips are interesting.

          I watched American Psycho for the first time on Boxing Day, because that’s how festive I am! Haha

          Agree, No Country For Old Men was scary, just odd.

          In many ways the murderous serial killing depictions don’t scare me as much as the more camouflaged psychopath. I really am not a fan of Baldwin, I think he is over rated, but to me, this feels like a more accurate and more troubling representation than the serial killer type psychopath. I think he does a good job here.


          1. BC30 says:

            Indeed that is why I think Anton was so unsettling–the complete opposite of us empaths. Psychopaths are better at camouflage than the average narcissists. Scary stuff!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Have you seen, ‘We need to talk about Kevin’ ? I thought that was very well done too.

            There’s a scene in it where the child is very small, still not talking. The mother sits on the floor opposite him and a little way away from him. She rolls a ball towards him and asks him to roll the ball back. He ignores the ball and she keeps retrieving it, until at last, he rolls it back. She praises him, her face lights up, she’s excited. She does it again and he just ignores the ball.

            I found that particularly scary. If it is an accurate representation of what a child with callous unemotional disorder would do, if the thinking was advanced enough to build her up through returning the ball, with a view to tearing her down by then ignoring the ball, then for a young child to be so calculated and so impassive as regards the praise and visible excitement of the mother, it’s extremely dark.

  5. Bubbles says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    The alter ego in drag 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
    (Hmmm 🤔looks like someone I know)

    Great explanation, thank you
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Bubbles.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    The acquisition of traits through folklore.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  7. lickemtomorrow says:

    I love the imagery … looks like you’re getting ready to burst their balloon, HG 😛

    It’s a category I’ve never taken seriously, simply because of the element of ‘appropriation’. The Heyoka belongs very specifically to a people and tradition, which means to me you can only consider yourself to have this same quality if you belong to this same people or tradition. Why would anyone want to appropriate this element, which no doubt has a great deal of substance within its own cultural setting, unless they felt a need to stand out? It has no substance outside of its cultural setting, at least from my perspective.

    While I can appreciate the notion of a Heyoka, it belongs to the people who originated the idea.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  8. Duchessbea says:

    Your knowledge is incredible.

  9. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I have a concern. I noticed many of the commenters on YouTube took the opportunity to criticize empaths in general, arguing anyone who calls themselves empaths are really narcissists. I was tempted to answer that the video explains very clearly that empaths do exist and then it proceeds to summarize the types of schools and cadres they are divided into, which is the ultimate reason why HG offers a service called Empath Detector. Sometimes I wonder if people really pay attention when listening/reading.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are correct SP, there are numerous commenters who clearly comment without listening to the video and also those who do not listen in full or carefully and they show this with their dimwitted comments. Somebody who calls themselves an empath is not necessarily a narcissist. An person who identifies with being an empath can make mention of it, but often do not or if they do, they are clam and quiet about it. The ones who come along and yell “I am a Super Elite Heyoka Ninja Empath and I took the narcissist down to china town!” are invariably not empaths and are unaware Mid Range Narcissists. Empaths do not go around shouting about what they are, they do not go around engaging in trying to destroy the narcissist and shouting about it.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        “Somebody who calls themselves an empath is not necessarily a narcissist.” Especially if they know they are an empath because you informed them so after the ED. Thank you, HG. Super-Elite-Heyoka-Empath-Will-Take-You-Down-to-Chinatown is my new favorite school hahaha.

        1. A Victor says:

          SP, I think a lot of people on YT also don’t know about the consults, or at least haven’t availed themselves of them.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Bad, bad followers. You need to read Tudor; watch Tudor; listen to Tudor; dream Tudor… how can you not know about the consults? Now seriously, AV, they were commenting that empaths are narcissists below the video where HG specifically talks about schools and cadres of empaths! It’s like the people that ban a book without having read it. Idiotic.

          2. A Victor says:

            Lol, I know, I’ve seen it! It’s ridiculous. If they don’t know, it’s not for lack of trying on my part, I’m constantly trying to sell the consults, best things ever!

      2. Violetta says:

        What, you don’t believe in the SupercalifragilisticexpialiEMPATH?

        Regardless of your psychobiology, we can convert you with the force of our affection. When we say we’re in love, you best believe we’re in love, L-U-V!

        We will hug you and pet you and pat you and squeeze and

        Resistance is futile.

        What a sec, isn’t there a name for someone with no sense of boundaries who can’t take no for an answer?

        And it isn’t #mpath….

    2. Witch says:

      Yeah I saw the “empaths think they are so special but they are not” type of comments.
      Empaths ARE special, facts! There I said it.
      If you’ve been loved by one.. then you know

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Haters gonna hate. On the contrary, I could have hated my dog right now for attacking the Christmas tree while I was occupied attending a boring work Zoom meeting. But I laughed instead. Empathy? Well, that, and the fact that he saved me from boring hell.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Sweetest,
          My mum’s cat did the same when I put her stree up … ‘oh look shiny balls’ and used the stem as a scratching post 😹
          I tend to get sidetracked when I see something ‘shiny’ as well 😂🤣😂🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            At least he didn’t pee on it, which wouldn’t surprise me.

      2. A Victor says:

        @Witch, really? I’ve never considered it the way you put it, “If you’ve been loved by one…then you know”. Thank you for this, made my day!

        1. Witch says:

          @ A Victor
          Even narcs copy us 🤣

        2. BC30 says:

          I was watching the new Wheel of Time miniseries and was watching the funeral scene of one of the guardians. I started crying and had been fidgeting– of course, that triggered thoughts about Narcsite.

          1. A Victor says:

            I will have to check this show out, I’ve not heard of it. Crying and fidgeting, lol, Geyser showing! Love it! I rarely cry and never fidget! 😂.

            Anything that makes us think about Narcsite must be okay, huh? 🤗

      3. Another Cat says:

        HG, Witch
        My impression from YT comments is that it is often times narcissists who claim these things. “Empaths are just another type of narcissists.” Some sugar too, I’m sure.

        I’ve been through similar IRL. A narcissist neurologist holding a long evening speech on the claimed differences between male and female brains. He talked about language and math areas of the brain. And that’s it. I asked him a question about empathy. His answer ended with “Yes, and really, what is empathy anyway.”

        So I feel a red flag when someone diminishes/declares empathy doesn’t exist.

        It might just be a narc talking.

      4. BC30 says:

        You speak Truth.

    3. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Sweetestest Perfection,
      I concur, your concern was very apparent, so was St Anger’s presence 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

      We could always change the terminology…..

      US (empath) v THEM (narcissist ) or
      TRUTH v LIAR or
      WENDY v PETER PAN or
      ANGEL v DEVIL or
      VAXXERS v ANTI-VAXXERS (appears to be the new trend)

      Prior to coming here, I had never used the word ’empath’, it just distinguishes who we are with our ‘traits’, that’s all (I’ve always associated empaths with the ‘spirit’ world)

      Personally, taking a name from a ‘cultural tradition’ and using it, is disrespectful and inappropriate (unless you have their permission)
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Bubbles, I see that you also remember St Anger too 😉 I agree with your last point.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He spends more of this time protesting his apparent status in the comments on YouTube.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing. Yes, I noticed one particular comment ‘signed off’ with the same name. I do enjoy reading the comments on YT too. Thank you for your reply, HG 🙂

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          Yes…..I do remember. I believe I commented on what a somewhat ‘flamboyant’ character he was and obviously still is, he stood out for all the wrong reasons
          Hasn’t changed, they never do, do they ? 😂🤣😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, laughing…. of course he was! I would not have used the word ‘flamboyant’ though. In my view, he stood out for the right reasons – so that we could learn and observe! (LOL).

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            It was meant with gentle sarcastic undertones, whilst trying to be ‘noice’ at the same time 😇

            Your last sentence is quite right also, good point ….he blatantly stood out both ways hehe
            Thanks gorgeous for pointing that out 😊
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Bubbles, don’t tell me! Tell Hilaria Baldwin!

        I went through your list. I agree with all items in the left column, including vaxxers (I am proudly hypervaccinated, full of mighty vitamins and minerals). But I’m closer to Tinkerbell than I am to Wendy!

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Sweetest,
          A handful of people we know are anti-VAXXERS, boy, talk about hostile …..most of them are very ‘entitled’ individuals, digging their heels in. A couple have very ‘reluctantly’ had their shots due to pure peer pressure being excluded from Christmas family functions. One anti-VAXXER female has decided ‘her family’ will not attend their extended family Xmas gathering, ‘knowing’ her family members have health issues, but still won’t get jabbed.

          It was an ‘on the spur’ of the moment silly list, however, I relate better to Tinkerbell as well 😉
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I am vaccinated. If they wanna die, be my guest. By all means, exercise your freedom to die. It’s all I have to say to these people. On the other hand, I read yesterday that a guy in Spain got vaccinated ten times on the same day. This proves two things: 1) my lack of faith in humanity is substantiated 2) the vaccine won’t kill you!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He must have been vaccinated by that pneumatic hot as hell vaccination nurse I heard about in Spain.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha! Shameless Spanish guy…

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I heard she reported suffering from déjà vu after her own vaccination.

        2. Alexissmith2016 says:

          What type of Ns make up the anti-vaxers?

          I’ve been trying to make sense of this. It seems to span the mids and lessers but not all of them? In fact only a small percentage. I can’t quite put my finger on the specific school/ cadres who will/won’t.

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Alexissmith2016,
            Interestingly, the three antivaxxers I know, are all quite religious
            All mid range narcissistic traits
            Luv Bubbles xx 🤶🏻

          2. Another Cat says:

            Hi Alexissmith and Bubbles

            In my experience antivaxxers are often Middle Midrange and sometimes Upper Lessers.

            They are often actually vaccinated themselves(!!), against covid and other diseases, my country has reports from a magazine about it.

            It is often their inner unconscious narcissism which thrives that they persuaded empaths and normals to not get vaxxed.

            There are also Nonnarcs who are antivaxxers, but those are more quiet about it, in my experience.

            Some ppl born in dictatorships and behind the Iron Curtain, old Eastern Europe, I quite understand why they are extremely cautious, doubting even the Western/US vaccines.

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Another Cat,
            No one could persuade me 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

            All what you are saying is all relevant !
            Thank you
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks bubbles and another Cat for your answers.

            I’m finding it sooooooo confusing because I like to be able to box people lol.

            But there are a hardcore small group of mid-range/UL I know who are all anti vax, 2 died and 5 became seriously unwell as in ICU unwell and 2 more I consider to be normals but influenced by this group became seriously unwell but survived too.

            But they still won’t have the vaccine.

            then I meet other people, whom I imagine would be in this group and they’re all jabbed? and I’d love to make sense of the differences between those who will and those who won’t.

            I totally agree with what you’re saying though Another Cat, there is another N part of the above group, who is very smart, I imagine UMR with some inkling she knows what she is. She protests not to have had the vaccine and yet in daily hugging distance contact with this group, yet never caught it.

            I read somewhere ages ago that it is the most religious areas where the most porn is watched. so the fact some anti-vaxers look one way and point another doesn’t surprise me at all.

          5. Isabelle says:

            Hi Alexis,
            I wonder if there might be a “national character” factor to it? all the staunchly pro-vaccine people I know (who will not suffer the smallest doubt to be uttered) are narcissists here – mostly Mid-Rangers, apart from the fleet of uppers in power here. The anti-vaccines are overwhelmingly empaths or very empathic.

          6. Isabelle says:

            P.-S.: Forgot to say: this is my real name, “Fiddleress” in my past life on here 🙂

          7. Another Cat says:


            Yes, there seems to be antivaxxers of all personality types.

            And some staunch pro-vaxxers who “won’t sit in the same room as someone who doesn’t want to get vaccinated” (a math professor I know. Upper Mid or Lower Greater).

            There are also ppl who want vaccines to be mandatory.

            I wondered a lot about them. Maybe not empaths, but both normals and narcissists, I’m not sure. I just can’t picture an empath minister make a decision like that.

            Staunch antivaxxers I’ve noticed a lot of narcs also.

            I guess it’s all kinds, and a political question for many.

          8. k mac says:

            Hi Alexis 👋 I have decided as of now not to get the shot. It is a personal choice. I don’t not however like being backed into a corner by our government inro doing something to my body. I pass no judgment on those who decided to get the shot. I respect people’s right to choose. ❤

          9. Witch says:

            There are all sorts of people including empaths who won’t get the Covid vaccine
            I’ve been doubled jabbed with moderna but I waited for while to see how people at work reacted to the vaccine before taking it 🤣

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Alexissmith,
            One of the antivaxxers I know, now has Covid 🤓
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  10. Mariska says:

    I might not agree with everything you say, but I am convinced your evaluation of the Empaths is level-headed and reasonable.

  11. A Victor says:

    This is good, I have wondered what this was. Thank you.

    1. BC30 says:

      IDK what in heaven’s name is going on with WordPress—but yes, fidgeting. It do it when I am emotional from movies, not real life. Also, did you know that the chemical make up of tears changes depending upon which emotion triggers them. 100% true.

  12. Violetta says:

    In European culture, the Heyoka concept seems to have its closest parallel (if not equivalent) in the concept of the Holy Fool, exemplified in the Brother Juniper stories in The Little Flowers of St. Francis. Brother Juniper delights in doing silly things as a pious self-humiliation, with an element of a Court Jester, criticizing the pomposity of the Court.
    The Narcissism of someone not actually brought up in Sioux Culture proclaiming, “I am a Heyoka empath” is tantamount to someone neither a Christian nor interested in becoming a Christian announcing, “I am a great saint.” Even canonized saints don’t carry on like that, although Therese the Little Flower (hmmm, theme there) did announce her intention to become a great saint by living a life of devotion in obscurity.

  13. Violetta says:

    I’m sorry Super Empaths don’t go around physically beating up narcs. I’d love to be one, if they did!

    1. BC30 says:

      I did, but I’m Standard first and Super second. 🤣

  14. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Hahahah love this!

    Reminds me of a LMRN who would parade his very young son around for different ‘talents’ including eating Brussel sprouts. “Go on Charlie, eat some more and show them how much you love them compared to other children”. “He sometimes even chooses them over chocolate or when his friends are all eating crisps and biscuits”. Poor child.

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Eating Brussel spouts as “talent”? WTF?

  15. leelasfuelstinks says:

    In the current situation in my country, just let me tell you guys one thing: I indeed drew the line in the sand! Long time ago, in fact very early on! Like it or not! I don´t care! ✊💪

  16. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Interesting fun fact: I am often not even perceived as an Empath and sometimes mistaken as a narcissist! 😱

    But it also could be that the Super may be mistaken as “Heyoka” because we very quickly draw the line in the sand and notice very early on that something´s not right here? Not only with narcissists but also with political situations or familial situations? This is when we draw the line in the sand, when we say “wait a sec! This doesn´t match up, does it? Something is fishsy here”. At least in my case, then, I refuse to follow the herd, I have never been a follower but a thinker, a truth seeker. While others blindly follow the herd and do what they are told, I have never been like this. I do what it´s right! Not what everybody else does. I ask questions. I analyze things. And then come to my own conclusion. And I don´t give a shit what everybody else does or says. Screw them!

    This can maybe also mistaken as the “contrary behavior” of Heyokas?

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      Leela, I think your avi tells us all we need to know for now … love it!

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Thank you! ❤ Represents my attitude without words 😇

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LFS, when I saw your new avi, I laughed, hard. I was not surprised either 😉

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Well, you know me: My fuel stinks 😁😉

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, no, your fuel does not stink – at all 🙂

    2. Shandaa says:

      Love your response

    3. jasmin says:

      I’m so recognising myself in the second part of your second paragraph. I’m also a thinker who asks questions, analyze things and reach my own conclusions.

      I love that you write: -‘mistaken’ as the “contrary behaviour” as it isn’t! It’s walking your own path!

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Very cool! Thank you! ❤ I think this may be mistaken as the “contrary behavior” of the “Heyoka”, this: not following the herd, but doing it your own way.

        1. k mac says:

          Leela I love your picture! 🤣

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thanks! 😁 It´s my main narcissistic trait: defiance!

    4. Sweetest Perfection says:

      If you were a narcissist, Leela, your name wouldn’t be leelafuestinks. It would be something like: leelafuelisgreat-the greatest-leelafuelisthebest-believeme-leelaknowsfuel-anditsthebestfuel.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        It would be someting like RedHotSexyLeela, DirtySlutLeela or MataHari 😂😂😂 Judging from my narcissistic traits, I would be a heavily somatic leaning Elite. 😂

  17. Sweetest Perfection says:

    “… And I think to myself: no, you are not.”
    Hahahaha hahaha!!! I love the ones that appropriate the school and cadre of an empath without having taken the ED. Coincidentally most end up claiming Super Empath… anyway I was told about this thing once and I read about it with the same interest as when they tell you all Taureans are faithful. Wait. Am I a MRN?

    1. WhoCares says:

      “I read about it with the same interest as when they tell you all Taureans are faithful. Wait. Am I a MRN?”

      Oh, this made me chuckle, Sweetest Perfection!

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        It’s because I’m a Heyoka, WC.

    2. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Hahaha! Exactly those! 😂 Wannabe-Supers! 🙄

      And yes, you are a MRN! You are an Overwhelming Angel 😝😜🤪

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Haha thank you! …or not?

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          You can thank me! For the laughter! 😁😉

    3. A Victor says:


  18. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I’ve been waiting for this one!

    I find the self professed Heyoka empaths to be worse again than the self proclaimed SE’s. Even more superior, grandiose and desperate to appear unique. This desire to be unique I think lies at the very core of each narcissist. Yes they might exaggerate success or, they might elevate themselves through possessions, career or status, but overall and above all, I think what they desire most (apart from the prime aims) is to be viewed as being unique. The Heyoka epitomises this mindset in my view.

    I think what also differentiates the Heyoka from the fake SE’s is the way they seem to look down on those who they regard as being ‘just a regular empath’. There is this idea of some kind of empath ranking system with the Heyoka sitting top of the tree. That’s the dead giveaway right there. An empath would never do that, they have too much respect for their own kind and they self reflect too often on their own perceived shortcomings. In fact, superiority and grandiosity with regards to other people in general I think is a foreign concept to the empath group full stop.

    An empath might showcase their strengths occasionally, or acknowledge their own talents, but swagger in to a chat room, blog, or comments section and announce themselves as the all powerful, or all virtuous empath, they certainly would not.

    Grandiosity, false superiority, condescension. Three attitudes that aggravate the crap out of me. In some ways I could forgive the Overwhelming Angel or the Cry Baby MMRB as being misguided by their own narcissism. I find it extremely difficult to forgive the Heyoka in the same way.

    Nicely done HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      TS, interesting choice of words “I think what also differentiates the Heyoka from the fake SE’s is the way they seem to look down on those who they regard as being ‘just a regular empath’” – there are also people who ‘slate’ empaths altogether, basically saying that empaths do not exist. I have seen more people who profess to be Super Empaths more than ‘Heyoka Empaths’ when in fact sometimes, they are neither.

      There are empaths who give / donate / support others but do not necessarily ‘discuss it’. Sometimes, these ‘actions’ do not get ‘seen’ by other people either. They don’t catastrophize about what may have taken place in their lives.

      RE: “they self reflect too often on their own perceived shortcomings” – especially those that may have been ‘used’ to being ‘taught’ to feel or think like that, more often than not, an ACON.

      In my view, it is a constructive and positive ‘call-out’ on HG’s part to ‘deny’ the existence of a ‘heyoka empath’ because of the facts as FoolMe1Time suggested in their comment.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Asp Emp,

        Exactly. To your point about those being empaths or those exercising empathy without discussing it, I think that is probably the calling card of the empath. If you are one, surely it’s enough to know that you are one. It comes with both advantages and disadvantages anyway, so why the need to broadcast it in open forum?

        I hate evaluation in any form, I just do. So for me, to broadcast would be to reveal a fundamental and private part of my personality. To reveal is to open for discussion, is to defend and explain. I don’t explain myself either. My actions are my actions my thoughts are my thoughts, I don’t see a need to promote, justify or amend them. I am what I am, end of.

        So to broadcast, to me feels like nails down a chalk board. It seriously makes me recoil. I dislike the fake SE and fake Heyoka because they are imposters and they make the whole idea of ‘empath’ something that it isn’t. Just something people say because really, they only want to be different. That’s totally unfair to the empath group.

        We just sit at one end of a scale. That’s it. Someone has to get the highest and lowest mark. Someone has to be more emotion driven than the average. To me, that’s essentially what empath means. The top end of the emotional scale. Imposter Heyokas, SE’s or whatever other cultural rarity the Midrangers might want to appropriate, just makes us all sound like internet crazies. It mystifies something that really isn’t such a mystery. It weakens my position, and that mightily pisses me off. Haha!

        Here endeth my rant of today.

        I agree, HG does accurately depict the empath group. What’s more, he has the balls to stand up and explain that this group do exist and what that essentially means. It certainly doesn’t mean narcissist kickassery and neither does it mean

        A very wise and big balled man once said, “He with the biggest balls wins.” Let’s hope so eh?


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well stated.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you HG.

        2. Asp Emp says:

          TS, thank you for your response. Good to read your views. RE: those ‘parading’ around and passing themselves off as empaths when they are not, is more than unfair to genuine empaths – it is downright insulting, and somewhat demoralising. Just like questioning me as someone with Aspergers who has ‘reasons’ for ‘being’ the way I am – even if there is no ‘reason’ – if they don’t like it, there’s the door – I’ll give specific directions to the nearest brick wall instead ;-).

          When you refer to ‘scale’ – using HG’s spectrum of empathy / narcissism – I agree. However, (it my view) when it comes to emotions – no-one is ever 100% ecstatic, nor 100% the opposite end, whether empathy is involved or not.

          HG should not have to stand up and explain anything about the existence of empaths but the fact that he does says it all really.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I think you raise an interesting point here in relation to the empathy scale. As a general rule, it isn’t a good thing to sit at the very top or bottom of any scale. Intelligence is an obvious one. Whilst intelligence is desirable and a marker for success, being gifted can also be a hindrance. The ability to relate to others is lost. Life becomes exceptionally lonely.

            With empathy, I think you would see a similar issue. An empath with empathic traits set to 100% strength would struggle to relate, struggle to function. The world would feel incredibly dark I think. So 100% is likely unattainable and as an empath approaches 100%, I would estimate that she suffers more downsides than advantages.

            Difficult to say with narcissists. Empathic traits are absent. Absent is absent. There isn’t a scale to narcissism other than being a narcissist. HG mentions this in one of his videos.

            I don’t think this equates to being wholly ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ though. More, self centred. You would need the addition of full strength dark triad or tetrad traits and even having those traits, an individual is unlikely to carry all of those traits at full strength. There is of course a scale to psychopathic traits.

            So in principle, I would agree with you, I find it unlikely that an individual is ever 100% empathic or 100% psychopathic as it would prevent the ability to function. They would likely be 100% narcissistic though, if classified as a narcissist.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. RE: your first paragraph, I’d be inclined to agree with you where ‘savants’ may be concerned but they can still ‘communicate’ through what they have latent talents in ie drawing etc. I do understand what you mean.

            RE: the 100% – in my view, there is no ‘such thing’ as 100% in any characteristic / trait within people. What I am suggesting is that within a person, say me, for example, I may have 3.5 score on psychopath of the dark tetrad, let’s say that equates to (I am not doing ‘maths’ – just hypothetically, ok?), 5% of my overall individuality, add all the other characteristics I have and the end ‘result’ is 100%.

            For some reason or another, reading your words reminded me of HG’s article ‘Narcissist or Sociopath (Out of The Frying Pan into the Fire)’ – I found that interesting.

            It is the brain-wiring of people that invokes the term, for example ‘that person is evil’, not their emotions, or empathy (whether there is a lack of, a lot of, or not).

            Interesting to read your perceptions and interpretations 🙂

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I hadn’t seen that article! Thank you for mentioning it. I just read it along with the comments. Interesting.

            With reference to brain wiring and ascertaining ‘evil’ the other thing is that that conclusion has to go through the mind and perceptions / preconceptions of the observer as well. You would end up with a double muddying of the water. Communication coming from the subject plus interpretation of that communication by assessor / observer, so it ends up being quite subjective.

            Some behaviours I can point to as being evil though. The Arthur case in the press these last few weeks. That little boy was subjected to pure evil in my view. The fact though that if someone handed me a gun and said, “Do it, sort her and no one will ever know” and I would do it, means I’m obviously not the best person to judge parameters that constitute evil. I’m pretty hot on justice though!

          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. You mention Arthur, yes, it was one of the things that ‘bothered’ me – the ‘system’ failed him. Like I said previously, some people are afraid to speak up, or maybe not quite understand what abuse is but, in that case, he understood some aspects of it. Downright cruelty. It also begs the question on the ‘training’ and ‘observation’ skills within the ‘system’.

        3. BC30 says:

          “There isn’t a scale to narcissism other than being a narcissist. HG mentions this in one of his videos.” Where or which is that video? I hope you can remember.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Here it is. It’s a really good video too.



          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I just listened to the spectrum video again and am trying to get everyone in some form of trait order!

            Empaths, normals and narcissistic people all carry both empathic and narcissistic traits to varying degrees.

            Lesser and Midrange narcissists have a complete absence of empathic traits and have only narcissistic traits so they are narcissists.

            Greater narcissists have no empathic traits, the full range of narcissistic traits, but also carry some Dark Tetrad traits so they are still narcissists but differentiate as Greater Narcissists.

            Psychopaths have no empathic traits, the full range of narcissistic traits, and also cross the threshold of Dark Tetrad traits at a high enough strength and number to qualify as psychopaths.

            So all psychopaths have to be narcissists also because of the absence of empathic traits.

            All narcissists don’t have to be psychopaths because Dark Tetrad traits are not evident in high enough strength or number.

            So on that basis, the difference between a Greater Narcissist and a psychopath is the strength and number of the additional Dark Tetrad traits.

            I have no idea if that’s right or wrong, but it’s my best guess.


      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Nah nah! I´m the better Empath than you! 😝😜 #justkidding

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LFS, that may be true. I may not even be an empath, maybe an aware narcissist! Either way, I am me. I’m like a boiler whose pilot light never goes out and the flame flares up when the ‘button’ has been switched on……..

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I don´t think you´re a narc. 😅

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, thanks for saying so. I’ll stop breathing out fire now 😉

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! I don’t believe your a narc either Asp Emp, and I know I’m have occasionally been a fire-breathing empath! 🤣

          4. BC30 says:

            😂😂😂🔥🔥🔥❤️ Asp Emp you gave me a good chuckle.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Much obliged BC30, much obliged 😉

      3. Leigh says:

        Asp says, “They don’t catastrophize about what may have taken place in their lives.” So absolutely true. I know this but sometimes I need to be reminded. Thank you. The empath more than likely will try to downplay it, even deny it. A narcissist will use it to their advantage.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Leigh, thank you for your response. Some empaths do not ‘deny it’, they just do not talk about it, or may not have remembered due to suppressed memories. Some empaths do not ‘downplay it’, because they may have been ‘taught’ to be of less ‘value’ than other people. A narcissist will use it against you, hence the ‘The Narcissist Knows Your Weaknesses’.

          1. Leigh says:

            So very true, Asp.

      4. alexissmith2016 says:

        A really interesting discussion you guys are having on whether people just do or have to tell they have done. I never used to tell what I had done, always just did. But since being on this site and learning about Ns and how they advance themselves etc. When I think it will be helpful for me, I will say what I have done, this is usually only when there are lots of other Ns but I’ve learned it can actually be rather helpful at times.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Alexis,

          Are you referring to telling what you have done in an empathic sense, helping someone out / giving your time to someone you think you can support for example? Or do you mean ‘telling what you have done’ in a work/ employment sense?

          For me, the two are different. I would push myself forward in a work sense, (not elbow you out of the way and loudmouth it like a narc) but I would demonstrate knowledge or experience to further my position career wise. In a personal / empathic sense I would just do and not tell.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, that gave me a laugh “not elbow you out of the way and loudmouth it like a narc”.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hi TS, both really.

            So I would never have told anyone what I have done in an empathic sense, not in the past. Like Nike – I “Just do it” lol. I never gave it any regard or thought I was doing anything any different or special compared to the next person.

            But I learned from this site and through observing Ns that they literally do it all the bloody time and the sad thing is, people believe them.

            I’ve listened to those droning on about how much of their salary they donate to charity. How much time they spend doing this or that or the other for friends/family/people they barely know.
            And astonishingly people are completely taken in. I remember my N who brought me to narcsite would tell everyone what a great father he was, how his kids adored him and hated their mother. How he was the one who did this, who did that for them /with them.

            But the amount of time he spent out of the house at work followed up by going to various places until late at night on weekdays. Out all weekend without them of course all told a very different story! All this time they were at home with their mother who never talked about what she did for them, she just got on with it as anyone with empathy does.

            But people were always saying what a great father he is, how much he does for them, and if it wasn’t for him they’d only have their crazy mother etc.

            I wondered how they could not see, how they could not realise he did absolutely fuck all for them. and actions always speak louder than words.

            And I see so many other Ns saying similar things and people simply believe it.

            Since learning about Ns, my personality has changed an awful lot. Firstly I no longer do help people anywhere near as much as I used to. They have to be an empath or empathic for me to want to help just because I want to help. And the degree of help/support is in accordance with how much empathy they have.

            Then there are those normals/Ns whom I will still help but only if it serves my purpose in some way. As per Ns, I want a return on my investment. They’re not getting anything for free. So if they are of no value to me, they won’t get help.

            It took me a long time to reach this point and there was a long period where it made me feel incredibly selfish etc but largely I don’t feel selfish any more.

            So back to your original question. Apologies I digressed a fair bit. But yes, whilst ordinarily I would not tell people about any empathic acts I have done, if it serves my purpose I will. Because some people namely Ns and normals (not all) need to be told about your empathic qualities.
            I don’t go around bragging or anything lol. It’s select, calculated and only when there will be benefit to me from them seeing that.
            I’ve learned so much and want to put it to good use. I do hope you understand and don’t think I’m a Heyoka or just a complete bitch hahahah

          3. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith, I relate so much to this comment, about the N dad and E mom especially. Again, I aspire to your success! Thank you for sharing!

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            by the way HG, with reference to the “Like Nike I just do it” – you can have that one hahahah on me

            see I do still do kind things sometimes

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for explaining your thinking here. Haha, no I don’t think you’re a bitch who doesn’t help people, not at all. It is an interesting comment though because it ties in with the conversation about how empaths might evolve their behaviours in a more narcissistic environment.

            I can totally understand your frustration with narcs who broadcast how much money or time they might give to charity. Or what an excellent husband or father they are, when you know otherwise. That would rile me something chronic. Bear in mind as well that I’m right at the top end of guarding my thoughts and privacy, so that behaviour would get to me in the same way as you, if not more.

            My view on how you play it is that you are revealing what you do yourself primarily to contrast the behaviour of the narc. A case of “ No need to shout about it mate, many of us do charity work or give to charity.” Essentially, I think it’s done to undermine the narc and highlight the broadcasting behind their bravado. Demonstrating what true empathy is and means has to be justified in that context. (not that your require justification ) You still aren’t trumpeting your empathy for your own ends, there’s no “ Look at me !” about it.

            I’ve never actually thought about if I would help a narc, assuming I knew he / she was a narc. I’d help in catastrophic circumstances. I don’t think I could turn away from anyone or anything in that situation. I totally get your point as to helping a narcissist if it furthers your own objectives. Many of us do that regularly when we think about it. I recommend HG’s work for example, because I want people to get the help they need. I don’t recommend him to assist in his personal legacy. That said though, if a person works hard, goes the extra mile, I would always admire that and say they deserve to do well, no matter narc, normal or empath. Essentially, recommending HG furthers my objective and his, so it’s a win win in my eyes. I think this is what you are driving at here. With narcs and normals the help offered has to achieve something that you want too.

            I think what you have are strong boundaries. You’re placing your energy and efforts into people that deserve them. If they don’t ( being narcs or oblivious normals) then you want something back from those energies. I can’t disagree with you there either.

            So nah, sorry, you don’t make the kickass super duper Heyoka grade I’m afraid Alexis. Besides that, your spelling isn’t creative enough.

            You do help, and for no payback. You help regularly here with the comments you make and thoughts you share. You have made me laugh out loud during my time here and you really touched me when I was at my lowest. “ Awww TS, you can hold on to my hand. I won’t let go.” Xx

            Yeah, thinking about it, you’d make a really crap Heyoka, haha!


        2. A Victor says:

          I have been learning this also Alexissmith, it is part of my assertion training. Possibly the most difficult thing I feel a need to change relaying to myself proper, like pulling teeth. The addiction of course being the most difficult to address relating to narcissists.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            The addiction is a tough one. Mine is still there but I manage to keep it in check – ish lol

        3. BC30 says:

          I am taking this to heart–“As per Ns, I want a return on my investment. They’re not getting anything for free. So if they are of no value to me, they won’t get help.”

    3. leelasfuelstinks says:

      But we should not forget that every REAL Empath also have their dark sides. We have our dark behaviors as well, our dark thoughts but it´s kept in check by empathy. Our empathy can get eroded by stressors and then we MAY behave narcissistic or dark in order to defend ourselves or our values. What I can´t stand is that sterotype of Empaths: compassionate, kind, loving, caring, bla bla. Yes, we can be all that, no doubt, but in every Empath lies a dark side.

      I´m just not a big fan of that “Angel-Empath” stereotype, you know what I mean?

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LFS, a good comment. I suppose it is possible for the dark sides of ourselves can also lead to us ‘painting ourselves black’ because we were ‘taught’ to. Once in a blue moon, someone, ‘out there’ can reach out without being prompted to, those are the ones that really care. Sometimes, the ‘dark’ side takes over, I am aware when it does. ‘Overwhelming Angel’, I am not 😉

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Neither am I. And in the current situation I really feel my “dark side” very strong (obviously 😂😉). Of course I support and help people at the moment, no matter what. But there´s another side of an Empath, there´s not only Dr. Jekyll, there´s also Mrs. Hyde who comes out. 😉

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, yes, I was thinking about that earlier in relation to myself. Laughing at ‘Mrs. Hyde’ though. I have helped others even when at my ‘darkest’ but I can struggle in doing so, it depends.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Whenever my dark side comes out, I don´t care. I have to do what is RIGHT!

          3. A Victor says:

            Yes, and in those instances, the offender best look out!

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Better they don´t, but they won´t catch me cheating anyway. 😎😁😜

          5. A Victor says:


      2. Truthseeker6157 says:


        I know what you mean. If we didn’t carry narcissistic traits, we would largely be defenceless. Every species has a defence of some kind, nature isn’t stupid.

        I do wonder, given the mess that the world is in just now, whether the empath’s narcissistic traits are now more prominent overall in response to environment? As the number of narcissists increase and as society aided by technology becomes more narcissistic, I wonder if the demeanour of the empath is evolving at all? Or, do we hold our position? Our empathic traits equally as strong. Our narcissistic traits lighting up at the same rate as they have always done?

        There have always been stressors throughout history, wars, famines, natural disasters, poverty and so on, there have always been narcissists in positions of power, but I think our environment is more narcissistic now than it has ever been and I just wonder what the overall empathic response to that narcissistic environment will be over time.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, it was interesting reading your words here. In my view, simply put, the world would not survive without ’empathic response’, maybe humanity would collapse? Narcissists need empaths to ‘survive’. Normals don’t “rely” on either narcissists, or empaths individually but for humanity to ‘work’, they need both Ns & Es. That leaves the empath ‘group’…….the poor, hard-working and loving empaths. When it’s put in black and white like that, it shows clearly why HG’s work is paramount and why we need HG.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Again, I’m in agreement with you. I think there has to be a balance and agree there is a place for absence of emotional empathy in society. HG’s “I ensure that you sleep safe in your beds at night.” Is a good example. Could I take the shot if the shot needed to be taken? I’d have to look at the circumstances, by which point, I’ve probably just been shot.

            Like it or not, there is a requirement in society for lack of empathy. The day to day that we are all aware of though, here there is a glaring shortfall of empathy as narcissism rises and I think this imbalance is making itself felt. This is what we are seeing in the news. Narcissists are very good at confusing, muddying the waters and dividing people. Whilst we are all divided, we are increasingly vulnerable to being manipulated on a massive scale. Even kids know that divide and conquer is the fastest route to getting what they want.

            You’re right too about the hard working empaths. The empathic voice has to be the one that eventually finds some form of common ground and way forward. This group will read the narcissist’s scrawl on the wall first, they will be far more impacted by what they see.

            Honestly, from my own conversations, the normals are largely oblivious to what is playing out in front of them. They either don’t notice, don’t see it as being relevant to them, or have already picked a side whilst following the loudest voice. As things progress though, as divisions become ever more pronounced and the narcs gain further traction, I think there will be such chaos that the normals will finally wake up to what’s in front of them. It will start to affect them in their little bubbles. Then hopefully there will be a kick back. Sadly, I think we are a long way from that point currently. It would really help if more people could point to narcissism at work in their own society, instead of downplaying it or turning a blind eye entirely.

            Could the idea of giving the narcissist enough rope hold true on a mass scale? I don’t know, maybe. Yes, I agree, never has HG’s work been more needed than it is now. In my opinion anyway.


          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. In my view, the Laws / Acts / policies / procedures are there for reasons and these ‘regulations’ do ‘lack empathy’ yet contain common sense as well as stating guidance, justifications, ‘acceptables’ and so on. While the majority do ‘adhere’ to guidance, others do not – where it is apparent (using a quote of HG’s “go by the evidence”) that such ‘systems’ are not ‘working’, the normals will / may start to question it, which should (common sense prevailing, obviously) lead to people responding to call for people ‘power’ to be in effect. While sometimes, a Law etc can be ‘amended’ / created, it’s also needs people in authority to sit up and respond too.

            The medical profession also need to ‘up the ante’ within their own fields, especially in relation to the increasing levels of mental health among humanity. How many of these professionals are looking at the same ‘problem’ from a different perspective instead of using the same ‘old’ tried & tested ‘methods’? By my saying that, we have proved on this blog that by learning about narcissism, we also learned / talked about neurodiversity “labels” as a whole.

            RE: normals, as you suggest “don’t see it as being relevant to them” – unless it impacts them directly. They may make some ‘noise’ about a narcissist boss but not necessarily make the ‘connection’ because they may not choose to look outside their ‘box’ (their environment, their family etc). Mention narcissism / specific narcissists in the news, on tv / newspapers, then they may take notice.

            People ‘downplaying’ the existence of narcissism will be either narcissists themselves, or, the victims of narcissists (who may be too traumatised or afraid to speak out).

            Good to read your views, TS, thank you 🙂

            Apologies HG, for another long comment. Thank you for your time in moderating.

          3. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, your comment here is right, I believe, thank you. I had forgotten this. We do need each other, and as empaths, we do need HG’s work.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your comment. You have a lovely way of laying things out in terms of what needs to happen for things to improve, what needs to be done.

            I agree. I think I just get so damn frustrated by day to day events at the moment, because I can see what’s happening, I can see narcissism in play all over the place and I get frustrated that others can’t see it too. Even when it’s pointed out to them, they still don’t see it. Intelligent people, people in professions, still clueless. I’m very impatient, that’s my problem. I admire HG, he just keeps on going, putting out the material, chipping away at it, slowly building subscriptions, encouraging people to share the information. I find myself wanting to give people a good shake whilst screaming, “Listen! Wake up!” Good job I’m not steering the ship haha!

            You’re right too, learning about narcissism has led to me learning more about neurodiversity as a whole, the apparent trait overlaps and definite distinctions. I find myself questioning things I notice about people repeatedly. Not in a fearful way, just in a trying to better understand way. I’m becoming more well rounded now I think. The upside to the frustrated downside!

            I need to take a leaf out of HG’s book. Don’t get frustrated with it, just keep chipping away at it.

            Always a pleasure to read your thoughts Asp Emp.


          5. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your compliment. RE: ‘frustration’, I can understand. One thing I have understood about myself (through HG’s work) is not to get too overly stressed over circumstances that are not necessarily directly impacting me – sounds as if my empathy is more ‘controllable’ so to speak. It does not mean I have less empathy for whatever I see on the news, yes, I may speak up about it but will not let it ‘bother’ me too much – it is not conductive to overall ‘health’. Maybe it ‘clouds’ L & E thinking in some way.

            I have noticed that with a more ‘clear’ mind and emotion ‘set’, I am seeing (making observations) of my face-to-face interactions with people with more ‘clarity’. Even if I have some level of anxiety, this is not related to my LT / ET. I find myself more or less giving the ‘hey! pay attention to what I am saying to you’ “attitood” because I can see that the person is not actually paying attention, like half-listening. I used to ‘accept’ that in the past but have less ‘tolerance’ because I am not a doormat. Yes, I approach it with my new ‘learning’ and bear that in mind the possibility of communicating with someone who has neurodiversity.

            Thank you for sharing your views, good to read 🙂

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          “I do wonder, given the mess that the world is in just now, whether the empath’s narcissistic traits are now more prominent overall in response to environment?”

          YES, YES and YES! Definitely!

          “I wonder if the demeanour of the empath is evolving at all? Or, do we hold our position?”

          I think yes. We help people who need help but we let the narc-traits in us out in order to defend ourselves and others. This depends on the situation but I think, both traits are for survivor. For ourselves and of others!

          I think we adjust our traits to the situation. When defense is needed the narcissistic traits come out, when help is needed then the empathic ones.

          My 2 cents. 😁

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leela,

            Thank you for your reply. I like the way you describe using your narcissistic traits to defend yourself and others also. Similarly your empathic traits are still being used to help others where needed.

            So far, I think I am behaving similarly. My narcissistic traits still used as defence and channeled very specifically. I’m not firing in all directions when my narc traits are lit up.

            It’s my own thoughts that bother me. How I feel about the huge divisions and unadulterated selfishness I witness in the news. I’m frustrated a lot, angry a lot, wholeheartedly disappointed a lot. I don’t withdraw when I feel this way. I go forward instead. I do debate, I do stand up for what I believe in, but in many ways I also feel like the more empathic perspective is getting very drowned out by the narcissistic one. Over time I think that’s going to have an impact on my approach and I don’t see that as a positive thing necessarily.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Exactly the same here! My main empathic trait (thruthseeker) and my main narcissistic trait (defiance) are highly active! I feel strong compassion and empathy for the people but also very strong defiance and pride (see my avi) 😉 I indeed break some rules don´t give a shit, they can kiss my ass but at the same time I try to help people who suffer! I try to heal and fix as much as I can. At the moment I really let BOTH shine.

          3. A Victor says:

            TS, I just commented similar to Leela! I feel incredibly selfish at the moment, in response to what is happening in the world at large. And I am concerned about changes this could make in me also, changes I don’t want.

          4. A Victor says:

            I agree, now to go check my N trait of selfishness against my E trait of self-protection, and determine which is in play! 😂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Feeling selfish at the moment, or angry at the moment is probably a natural response by more aware people to recent events and to the impact that narcissism is having across politics worldwide. That’s before we even look at our personal lived experiences closer to home, or stories we might read about individual cases such as the Gabby Petito case.

            It would be interesting to know if the heightened narcissistic traits that we describe as activating, are the ones that show as our stronger narcissistic traits individually. Difficult to say for me as I carry all of them so the level of each is relatively even apart from anger which is lower. Strangely though I feel angry / frustrated more than anything else at the moment. The trait detector shows low anger. I think that I would interpret that as the fact I won’t show anger. I have a strong hold on revealing that I’m angry. That’s different to not feeling anger / frustration / irritation. Similarly, if we view narcissistic traits as a defence, then the fact that anger and defiance ( in my case) is lighting up could be seen as a warning that things definitely don’t feel right at the moment, and that I should sit up and pay attention.

            Longer term, I hope I don’t continue to feel as angry, disappointed, frustrated, let down, and generally sickened by behaviours I witness or read about on an almost daily basis. Reading that list, it actually looks like more empathic traits are lighting up just in a negative way. Argumentative. I’m far more argumentative of late too. I must be a real joy to be around just now haha!


        3. NarcAngel says:

          Interesting TS

          As I understand it, the empath’s narcissistic traits may come to the fore temporarily to deal with a stressor and then fall back in line (the candlelight vs spotlight scenario HG gives in The Super Empath for example).

          Is the question then that due to a perceived increase in global stressors, that empaths may find themselves in this state more often (of narcissistic traits at the fore) with the result being that they may have or might yet evolve in some way?

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, that’s exactly my question, thank you for honing in on my thoughts.

            We maintain our usual empathic course, unless under a stressor. Then, for the duration of that stressor, the narcissistic traits have more dominance than usual. The level of dominance varying reasonably in line with empath school.

            Taking myself as an example, I can’t help but notice my narcissistic traits lighting up far more regularly than ever before. Granted it has been a stressful couple of years for everyone due largely to COVID. Strangely though what is wearing away at me more is the stark division I’m seeing in society. Whole swathes of the population sticking doggedly to their side with no desire at all of finding a middle ground with those having opposing views. Escalation upon escalation. I don’t feel under threat or frustrated by one person, I feel disappointed and frustrated by society as a whole and my narcy traits are lighting up in response.

            This isn’t going to be a short term state of affairs. The solution isn’t to escape my abuser and move on. My abuser is seemingly in everything I watch and everything I read. So all the while I feel this way, what is happening to my empathy? If society continues to become more narcissistic with my traits lighting up repeatedly in defence against that, how do we deal with that long term?

            Currently I would say I defend, then I revert back to me, defend, revert. So maybe I’ll continue to do that. People will adapt to their environment though and I seriously do wonder how I’ll evolve in line with that.

          2. A Victor says:

            TS, yes, I relate to your comment here very much. My abusers are all around me, in the context of the larger world, very stressful, and with no good resolution in sight. I have wondered how this will affect empaths in the world at large long term. I fear we may be buried, or forced to join forces with narcissists just to survive.

          3. A Victor says:

            NA, jumping in, I hope that is okay. I don’t know about evolving, but certainly for me becoming more selfish due to a sense of wanting to self-protect.

          4. Another Cat says:

            NA, HG, Truthseeker

            I have several times pondered the stressor and what it does to the Empath Detector. Might one get a little different school/cadre /trait result when totally clear of outer stressors in life, or is the detector “stressor proof” so that the real self is the result regardless?

          5. Alexissmith2016 says:

            From my perspective the more I have learned from HG the less my empathic traits shine.

            My emotional thinking by and large is kept well under control to the point where I almost think like a normal. I can and do still experience emotional extremes but the frequency is far, far less.

            I imagine much of that comes from avoiding Ns where I possibly can snd where I can’t I’m able to explain their behaviour away.

            I almost see Ns now like they’re some kind of toy pet, as if you know what to say and do (most of the time) to allow them to feel in control, even when you know you really are (because of their predictability) hahha of course that can only work when the interaction is minimal so you remain painted white. It wouldn’t work for an IPPS. Plus I’m still continuing to learn and when I get it wrong I just explain their behaviour away in accordance with whichever school they belong to.

          6. WhoCares says:

            I completely agree with the experiencing of fewer emotional extremes as a consequence of our learning here – plus no contact. It can still happen, the emotional reactiveness, but it’s less frequent, and can immediately be kept in check once one realizes that they are interacting with a narcissist.

            I laughed at the “toy pet” reference…but they are entertaining when you can detach from their behaviour or simply aren’t in a position to be on the receiving end of it, and can just observe.

            On the subject of evolution, I think that our sharing with others about narcissism through directing them to HG’s work, putting it into practice and exercising our knowledge, naturally leads to others learning and evolving.
            Personally, I simply don’t go through life the same way anymore (something that I mourned but now embrace ) and exercise caution and wariness (and guard my empathy) until I can suss out the type of individual that I am dealing with. This felt unnatural at first, but like learning a new language, it’s beginning to feel like second nature.
            The skill of protecting oneself will eventually lead to these skills being passed on…and lead to more people evading the detrimental effects of narcissistic ensnarement. And like any survival skills that help evade predators – this will help the survival of those individuals and could affect the evolution of the future offspring of those individuals.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Which poses the question:
            Have things really changed all that much with regard to increased global narcissism?
            Or, are we now (through our enlightenment) just more aware of our empathy and actively identifying/ comparing a lack thereof in others and attributing that to increased narcissism? Certainly we are exposed to more now through the internet and constant barrage of media, but I wonder how those who have lived through previous difficult periods of history see it.

          8. jasmin says:

            Hi Alexis!
            (Sorry for using the reply under NA’s comment but there’s no reply to be found under Alexis comment)

            I’m curious about how you manages to keep the Ns at a distance if you allow them to think they have control?

            If I’m painted white they will seek to develop a “friendship” in my experience.

        4. BC30 says:

          I am a bit confused about what you wrote:

          Empaths, normals and narcissistic people all carry both empathic and narcissistic traits to varying degrees.

          Lesser and Midrange narcissists have a complete absence of empathic traits and have only narcissistic traits so they are narcissists.

          When you say Lessers and Midrange have empathic traits that is unaware, instinctive mirroring and mimicry, correct? I believe it is and think that is what you meant.

          From my understanding the only thing that sets Greaters apart is awareness. They are necessarily intelligent or all that adept at manipulation, much of the manipulation will be instinctive, but with awareness of narcissism.

          I didn’t learn that here; I asked HG in a consultation, which I highly recommend anyone do.

          1. A Victor says:

            BC30, that is interesting! Thank you for sharing it. I didn’t realize we could say that, about learning it in a consult, I will do that also, great idea.

          2. BC30 says:

            Yes, I think many do not recognize the extensive value and opportunity to learn that is afforded in a consultation.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey BC30,

            My comment about Lesser and Midrange narcissists was that there was a complete absence of empathic traits, none whatsoever. Only narcissistic traits, so they can only be narcissists.

            The Greaters also have no empathic traits, they have narcissistic traits so are narcissists. They also appear to carry dark Tetrad traits though, which includes psychopathic traits.

            My thinking stems from discussions around manipulation that I’ve read here on the blog. In addition, this video is a really good summary.


            You’re right, self awareness is a distinguishing factor for the Greaters, also, size of fuel matrix, level of intelligence and success ( though intelligence and success is relevant to other schools also). Lack of tears a distinguishing feature, plus the control on ignited fury.

            Then we teeter into the dark Tetrad traits. Machiavellianism. Linked to the planning aspect specific to Greaters. They enjoy the game, moving players around like chess pieces just for the thrill of it. No concern for impact on the victims within the game, they take pleasure from manipulation.

            They toy with their victims ‘ like a cat with a mouse’. They punish perceived transgressors. This sounds very much like a sadistic element, again, dark Tetrad.

            Elevated superiority, principally a psychopathic trait. The idea of being entirely set apart, again psychopath territory.

            If ensnared by a Greater, you can’t get rid of them. You have to wait for them to get bored and move on to something else. Boredom is another psychopathic trait. The psychopath will often go all out on a project, then just tire of it, drop it, move on.

            The bearing of a grudge, links to desire for punishment which links to sadism.

            On the basis of these additional Sadistic and Machiavellian behaviours, the Greaters do appear to have additional dark Tetrad traits that other schools of narcissist don’t have. It looks very much like there is an overlap into psychopathic traits too, just not strongly enough to classify them as psychopaths.

            In fairness I score highly on Machiavellianism, reasonably high on narcissism but low on sadism and impulsivity. The difference though is that those scores would pale at the side of my empathic score. So it would appear that it’s the absence of emotional empathy that magnifies the problematic nature of the dark Tetrad traits rather than simply having them present in an overall profile.


          4. BC30 says:

            Yes, yes. But the size of the fuel matrix is a direct result of awareness, no? A Greater is able to build it through purposeful actions. Their ability to exert control over ignited fury allows them to plot and delight in manipulation. As to lack of tears, I think HG could squeeze out a few if it was a necessary means to an end, but he doesn’t because it is not necessary when there are many other manipulations he can deploy.

            Those are some differences (mostly arising from awareness), but awareness is REQUIRED.

            I wonder what percentage of Greaters are also psychopaths. HG has told us that the “happiness” we observe is the feeling of control. So, psychopathy is be masked. I suspect the control Greaters feel is different from what Lessers, MR and UMR feel. Similarly, there are differences among Empaths’ intrinsic perception and feeling of emotions. We’ve shared as much among ourselves.

          5. Joa says:

            TS, I liked what you wrote about triad and empathy.

            So, if it’s possible for an empath to have narcissistic, psychopathic, and Machiavellian qualities that he keeps in check (almost always), then I’m in that group.

            Therefore I understand. And that’s why I am attracted so much. Like a magnet.

      3. BC30 says:

        Absofuckinglutely. Being highly narcissistic led to quick erosion of empathy.

        Now that I am aware of narcissists, I’ve become rather brutal (defense mechanism) with my romantic and sexual.

        It has also affected my working and professional relationships. I think the erosion of trust on account of coming to terms with the relationships I had with narcissists (personal and professional).

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Our whole fucking government is FULL of narcissists and psychopaths! They can go and fuck themselves!

      4. BC30 says:

        One more thought that came up when I saw a man dive to save his daughter, to shield her from being his by a train.

        Would a narcissist father instinctively do that?

        1. Asp Emp says:

          BC30, interesting question “Would a narcissist father instinctively do that?”. I would suggest, yes. But it would depend on other ‘environmental’ factors (ie other people around, any other ‘distractions’ around) to stop the narcissist’s ‘instincts’ from responding? Or, would the human ‘primal’ instincts take over in this instance before the narcissism ‘kicks’ in?

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Interesting question BC30.

            I would estimate no. I think that instinctive split second decision still stems from emotional empathy. If emotional empathy is absent the paternal instinct to protect must also be absent. Sacrificing yourself for another doesn’t serve any of the Prime Aims if the narcissist isn’t alive to reap the reward later.

            Protection that isn’t based on a split second life threatening decision might look different. The narcissist might protect as it serves the Prime Aims, but in the case of self sacrifice I can’t envisage a scenario where the narcissist would do that, unless of course he is delusional, believes he is immortal and would survive the impact.

            I’m trying to estimate what a psychopath might do in that scenario. I think the psychopath might push a casual observer in front of the train instead of himself. The objective of saving the child is achieved, prime aims achieved, self preservation achieved, no emotional empathy for the casual observer, who would have less value to the psychopath than the potential value of the child.

            I must remember never to observe casually.

          2. Leigh says:

            TS, my husband is grandiose and thinks he is a God. He would definitely think that he would survive the impact.

          3. BC30 says:

            Oooh that’s an interesting thought I’d not considered. I mean, yes, there’s instinct, but I think the narcissistic instinct for self preservation would override the primal instinct. I’d throw myself on a loved one to protect them. I have. It was a drive by shooting. It’s not a conscious thought. I just love them. I need to protect them.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, thank you for your response, I’d consider whether the father would ‘react’ by saving the girl because she could be a source of fuel? So, yes, it is an interesting question 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I would expect nothing less of you xx. For you that behaviour is definitely instinctive. There’s no “Should I shouldn’t I ?” about it. You’re already doing it. It’s that instinctive protective element that I think would be absent with the narcissist.

            Protection without the self sacrifice would be Prime Aims based I think.

            A drive by shooting, I shudder to think. It’s reassuring to know that you’ve been tested though. When the chips were down you behaved as we hope we all would behave.


          6. Leigh says:

            I think the narcissism kicks in immediately. Instinctively, they have to save their fuel source.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:


            My husband is grandiose and thinks he is a God….”

            Haha, not much you can do with that is there? Your comment to BC30 got me thinking though.

            Another factor that we would need to consider in this is perceived risk. If you are terrified of water, to you, falling in is terrifying, your mind is telling you, I’m going to drown etc. To someone unafraid of water, the perceived risk will be lower. A bit like me tree surfing. I lifted my leg up at the edge of the platform to step down onto a right rope below. I’m crying, I’m shaking, my body just wouldn’t allow me to step down. Almost an invisible force just stopping me. My leg just raised as if frozen in time! Meanwhile, the boychild had already crossed the tightrope and was leaning back on a rope bridge further along the course, trying to coax me out. I stepped down because he was leaning back on the rope bridge, which made me nervous. Some rescuer I would have been haha, but essentially I needed to get to him, in my mind at least. Threat to the boychild, very low, perceived threat to me with newly discovered fear of heights, high. Some of what we see won’t just be narcissism based, but risk assessment based too I think.

            I think this gets even more interesting when you look at the psychopath in a similar situation.

          8. Leigh says:

            Very good point, TS. My daughter was probably 16 at the time and she wasn’t afraid to jump in either.

            You pose an interesting question about what would a psychopath do. They have no fear. Does that also mean that they don’t fear losing their fuel sources? So since their is no fear if they lose their fuel source, would they let me drown then? Would it threaten their control and challenge them because my drowning wasn’t by their hand? Would they be forced to save me then because they have to be in control at all times?

            Its scary how their minds work.

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          No idea. It depends. If it serves him a purpose (facade, daughter is a good source of fuel) then yes.

          1. BC30 says:

            Yes, but it would much depend on whether there is time to think about that. I’m in agreement with TS6157.

        3. A Victor says:

          Not unless it acquired the primer aims for him. BC30, thank you for these wonderful comments, these are life-giving, we can use our N traits and still be Empaths, we can be stronger and better Empaths! Thank you so much!!

        4. Jasmin says:

          ‘Death is the ultimate threat to control’ rings in my head. If the daughter dies the narsissist father can’t control her.
          I think he will instinctively save her but for the prime aims.

          1. A Victor says:

            Yes, she’s an asset, until she’s not any longer. We all protect our assets, to a degree.

          2. BC30 says:

            Indeed, and all serial killers are narcissists.

          3. A Victor says:

            I wonder if it’s because those victims, of the serial killer, have much less of an investment and they’re purpose is different, like a massive amount of fuel and whatever else at the point of their demise, not needing to extend it, just get that huge output once. Interesting thoughts you and Jasmin have brought up.

        5. Leigh says:

          BC30, My family and I like to go river tubing. Most of the time the water is fine. One year the rapids were brutal. I’m deathly afraid of drowning and my family know this. Its quite ironic since I grew up near an ocean and I absolutely love the beach. On the day the rapids were rough, I fell out of the tube. Both my husband and my narcissistic daughter jumped in to save me. Why? Losing me was a threat to their control. It wasn’t about what would happen to me. It was about what would happen to them if they lost their fuel source. Crazy, right!?!? Thank you for asking that question. I hadn’t thought of that until you asked it.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh, this is interesting to read. I had a similar situation as a child, my cousin was pushing me down in the water, in a panic to keep himself up, my dad, an excellent swimmer, came flying to my rescue. He could’ve cared less if my cousin made it, but he saved me. This memory came to mind on this thread right off the bat. I believe they will save their assets, not out of care for the person, but out of concern for their fuel and the time they’ve invested into the asset. Similarly as I would defend my house, differently than I would defend my kids. I also think the narcissism makes the decision virtually instantaneously, their own best interest will always win out, whichever it is.

          2. Leigh says:

            AV, I believe the decision happens instantaneously also. I also agree with BC30 that it depends on where fuel source sits in the fuel matrix. It’s crazy because it’s appears to be empathy and caring but its not. This is why it’s so hard to explain it to people. They think I’m crazy.

          3. BC30 says:

            Hmm, then it would have to be a very important fuel source. It may even vary based on the type of narcissist.

          4. Leigh says:

            I would have to agree with you BC30.

      5. alexissmith2016 says:

        hahah I definitely have a naughty side LFS

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Very nice. So I´m not alone with that one!

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            You’re not alone LFS! Not by a long way

        2. A Victor says:

          😂, me too! And I love it!

        3. BC30 says:

          AS2016, jumping in here on what you said:

          “I almost see Ns now like they’re some kind of toy pet….t wouldn’t work for an IPPS.”

          Me too, but I do try to stay away from them. Now that we know what they and what we are, it’s highly unlikely we’d become or remain and IPPS (even Co-Ds). I would bet that Empaths who come to know the Truth here and do not like it, remain in denial, and leave KTN quickly, rather than implement GOSO.

          1. I completely agree BC. Oh goodness, I definitely avoid them when I can. But they are just everywhere and despite my stronger boundaries I’m remain a magnet for them. So just get on with it in the best way I can. I think I’m far too defiant to ever be an IPSS – I used to think there was something wrong with me when I was young. Now I realise I’m just a threat to their control.

        4. k mac says:

          Alexis, me too with the naughty side. There is something about the narcissist that worked for me. I guess it’s because I’m screwed up in just the right way that we fit. I’m not sure I would be a good fit for the ipps either. Like you, I rank high on defiance although I became codependent with him.

    4. BC30 says:

      I am in total agreement, TS6157!

  19. Asp Emp says:

    Excellent, HG.

    I was remembering the ‘heyoka empath’ that visited KTN blog in August last year, that was hilarious.

    That’s interesting (and new to me) “safeguarding emotional empathy” (“where empaths consider the position of other people”).

    I loved your description of the ‘heyoka’. That section made me laugh.

    Hmmmm, David Brent is a Heyoka Empath, for sure 😉 (laughing).

    Thank you for this video, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Thank you, HG.

  20. FoolMe1Time says:

    Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Finally someone that actually knows what a Heyoka is, and what they meant to the Native American.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No problem FM1T.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Hello FM1T,

      Nice to see you posting!

      1. FoolMe1Time says:

        Hello WC,
        I just now spotted your comment. For some unknown reason I don’t get all the comments from WP anymore? I’m so happy that I caught it, I’ve always enjoyed commenting back and forth with you. 💞

        1. WhoCares says:


          “For some unknown reason I don’t get all the comments from WP anymore?”

          I feel like WP has been wonky for a while now. It’s annoying.

          “I’m so happy that I caught it, I’ve always enjoyed commenting back and forth with you. 💞”

          Ditto! Do you get a break over the holidays? Will we see you around more?

          I am glad the Heyoka Empath piece brought you out.
          Although I had heard the term, I didn’t realize how much bunk there was out there on the subject. I googled after listening to HG’s video – glad he’s sharing the logic on that one!

          1. FoolMe1Time says:

            Unfortunately I do not get a break over the holidays, unfortunate because I can’t be here as much as I would like to, but fortunate because being busy helps in making the holidays seem to go by faster. I do try to keep up with the comments on the blog, however at times there are far to many to keep up with! In case I’m not back before the holidays, I hope you and your loved ones have a very safe and beautiful holiday WC! 😘💞

          2. WhoCares says:


            Understood. Keeping busy is definitely a positive at times.
            Have a wonderful holiday, yourself! Stay safe. 💚

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