Closure Denied



We do not do the clean break. We never allow closure. There is no neat conclusion when you have been entangled with our kind. You are not allowed the precise and final cut of the surgeon’s scalpel but instead you must be content with the rusty saw that has sought to effect an amputation but instead has merely created a grisly abomination whereby there remains tendrils attached and ragged and torn flesh. No matter how hot the water which flows in your shower and the vigour with which you scrub your reddened flesh, no matter how much detergent you apply and no matter whether you use scrubbing brush or wire wool you cannot remove that residue. We linger. We remain. We percolate and infiltrate.

This, like much of what we do, is a calculated act to maintain a connection between you and us. We can never let go so we see no reason why you should be allowed to either. The residue which we create and which you cannot remove, takes many forms. It may be the fact that we chose you when we worked together so that each day you have no choice but to see us across the floor space in the same office, in the cafeteria or striding across the car park.

Once upon a time, like every good fairy tale, you smiled and you felt your heart skip a beat as you saw us exit the lift and smile at you. That wonderful smile which was just for you. Now when we exit the lift and our cold, dead eyes alight on you, the smile is no more than a sickly leer which slowly opens up across our face as we know the residue of our impact on your remains deep inside you.

You are faced with this each day. It is either that or leave and go somewhere else and even though you know that the latter is probably the most appropriate cause of action, something prevents you from doing so. Is it because you still want to see us? Of course it is. You may very well hate us but you cannot still help yourself as you want to see what we are doing and allow yourself the indulgence of looking at us and remembering.

In a different way the residue may be the fact that we owe you money and you are left to contact us, despite not wishing to do so, because you want, no, because you need that money. After all, we leeched from you so successfully that we have left you in penury and you need this money to be reimbursed. Part of you would rather write it off and in doing so hope that you can scour us from your memory, but circumstance dictates the necessity of collection.

We know this and we shall provide excuse and exhibit delay and prevarication in order to keep you hanging on and in order to keep the connection between us alive still. The money will be paid by the end of the week promise. Sorry but we had to have a new boiler fitted so it will be next month now. The bonus was not as large as had been promised so it will a further three months as I shall have to pay you by instalments. What money? I do not know owe you anything. We keep you dangling and pull at the connection that remains between you and I.

If it is not money, then it will be possessions. We will purposefully leave our belongings in your house and you will repeatedly ask us to collect them. We issue similar excuses to the repayment of the borrowed money. I am a bit busy at the moment maybe next week. I need to collect it in a car and mine is in the garage at the moment. If the possessions are not ours at your property then we will have ensured that in addition or as an alternative we will have kept items belonging to you with us, causing you to have to keep some form of contact with us in order to recover them.

We ensure we select those items which are expensive and of sentimental value so you will not be able to replace them but instead you must keep asking us for the items. We will string out the return of these items by failing to be in when you call to collect them, turning up to deliver them when you are not in, forgetting to do so and so forth. It all maintains the link between us and increases your upset, annoyance and frustration. We want to keep our residue in your life so that when we choose to make our move we can suck you back in without difficulty.

We will remain in the same circle of friends as you. With our notoriously thick skin we will still turn up to meals and drinks knowing that you will be there. You will feel uncomfortable and resent our intrusion. Third parties will try to keep the peace and of course we will maintain our façade in order to show that we are a good person and we are just trying to be civil following the ending of the relationship. You may react to this and it enables us to point out that you are unhinged, unpleasant and always have to bear a grudge. Is it any wonder that we left?

Whilst we create the ever presence so that you see us everywhere you go, in sounds, in sights and tastes, we also like to leave our mark on you, smearing you with the residue of the relationship so that you feel tainted for the rest of your life, marked with the repeated reminder that you have been embroiled in a relationship with us and moreover to let you know in the clearest terms that you will never be free of us. In our world, we can never be washed away.

 Wash the Narcissist Away – The Triple Addiction Package

Wash the Narcissist Away – How to Stop the Hoovers

Wash the Narcissist Away – Exorcism

87 thoughts on “Closure Denied

  1. NarcAngel says:

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    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest NarcAngel,
      Hallelujah, you’ve done it again 🥳
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      Ps I hope all is well in NarcAngel camp 🥰

  2. Duchessbea says:

    AV, very sorry to hear about your daughter. I hope she will be okay. Sending you strength and love. Best, DB

  3. Wendy says:

    AV, my prayers are with you and your family! I am so sorry this happened! 🙏😞

  4. k mac says:

    Wow, graphic.

    1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      k mac,
      I know!
      This image, and the story behind it, is explained in the discussion forum. Once you learn of the story, this image will never leave you untouched.
      It is the worst image ever…

      1. A Victor says:

        Z, you have made me curious, but do I want to know? It looks like the hand of as person passed away. There are several possibilities…😢

        1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          A Victor,
          It is the saddest thing you will ever learn in your entire life, we empaths are exceptionally sensitive to it.
          It is two years ago that Mr Tudor started to share this part of his life, and it has completely overthrown my life.

          Here is another of the same images:

          Slowly you will start to see that every image is a little pixel of the story.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you, I will approach with caution, if at all. Maybe my heart can’t take it. My daughter is in the ICU since Mon night, she tried to take her own life. It has been a hard couple of days. She will be physically okay, but I don’t know beyond that. I do blame them narcissists that have impacted her life for this, so much, so angry at them right now. Nobody saw this coming, it has been a wake up call to all of us, that this legacy of chaos is still present. So, I will approach with extreme caution, but thank you for the direction when I’m ready.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, so sorry to hear about your daughter … at the same time relieved to hear she will be OK. I can imagine you are beside yourself with worry and still trying to come to terms with what has happened 🙁 I’m truly feeling for you in this moment. So often we get no warning signs of what is about to happen and suicide or attempted suicide is the cruelest of blows. I’m not surprised you are directing your anger at the narcissist’s in her life. They have so much to answer for in terms of the damage they do, and you’re right, a legacy of chaos is what they leave. We spend so much time picking up the pieces, both of our own lives and often also that of our children. Anger at her may not be untoward at the moment either. We want our loved ones to tell us when they have a need so we can help them. It can be hurtful to think they didn’t approach us for that help, knowing how much we love them <3 I really hope she will be OK in every way.

            Praying for you both <3

          3. A Victor says:

            LET, Everything you say is true. And I am a little angry at her also and yes, a little guilt… Thanks you for the prayers, very much.

          4. WhoCares says:

            AV – I am so sorry to hear about your daughter! What a shock. I hope she is okay. Please keep us informed, if you feel comfortable doing that…take good care. 💗

          5. Leigh says:

            AV, I’m so sorry to hear about this. I hope she’s going to be ok and I hope you’re ok too. You are an incredibly resilient woman. But if you find your strength wavering, lean on us as much as you need to. We are all here for you. I’m sending you lots of virtual hugs. I wish there was more I can say or do to help. I’m so very sorry.

            I swear sometimes I wish I could put all the narcissists on a deserted island so they could torture each other and leave us alone. I hope they all rot!

          6. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I am sorry to read about what happened with your daughter. I can understand your shock and now having to process it while doing what you can to help your daughter through this. I can relate to your daughter’s experience but in my case I did not plan it – it was an external stressor in my case at my instinct based reaction to what muvver was doing at that moment, I was not ‘switched’ on in my cognitive mind, my body ‘reacted’.

            Maybe you can have a consult with HG initially to talk about your emotions / thoughts on this incident to guide you through your shock. No doubt this would also have impacted your grandchildren. So, I can understand the amount of your anger over the affects of narcissism within your family.

            Eventually, maybe your daughter can have her own consult(s) with HG when she is ready to do so. He is the best person to approach in the first instance on the whole matter. She’d need his guidance in starting the process in how to proceed in relation to her husband in any case?

            In my view, this may have an impact on your family for quite some time and it may not impact for as long without HG’s guidance via consultations. Maybe at some point, you, your daughter and your son may have family consults with HG?

            Once again, AV, I am sorry you have this additional trauma to process.

          7. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            A Victor
            Nooooooo 😱💔… My goodness this is the worst thing that can happen to you…and to your daughter of course
            How are you still walking and hanging around here on NS? How did you not breakdown? You are driving on adrenaline but it will kick you soon.
            I’m so sorry, I didn’t know this AV, I don’t follow all the threads or every article so a lot escapes me.
            Oh dear A Victor, and you are such a sweet soul, don’t fall in to the trap of blaming yourself, although you probably will…
            You are facing a hard and difficult time, I hope you have a solid network to rely upon.

            There is so little I can say and because of the anonymity so little I can do. Please take good care of yourself and by that I mean: consult a doctor or whatever to help you as well.

            I’m totally shocked. I’m so sorry there’s nothing I can do for you.

            If you want to talk about it, if and when, please do and don’t think well I better not bother them, this is important.

            Thinking about you,


          8. A Victor says:

            I am sorry for putting that comment under yours, it just seemed kind of fitting, given the image. When I sent my initial question everything was fine and a few hours later it was not. Yes, numb yesterday, feeling more today, on the verge of tears all day. Thank you for your sweet comments of support and encouragement. All will be well, it will just be hard work for her. You have done a lot for me with your words, I know you mean them. I think of it often, narcs don’t mean their words, making them useless. But we’re do, and they help. Thank you.

          9. JB says:

            AV, oh goodness, I just saw about your daughter! I am so, so sorry, what a massive shock that must have been. I wish there was something I could do to help, but like Z says, it’s difficult because of the anonymity. I hope your daughter is ok, and able to get the help that she needs to fully recover. I am thinking of you both xxxx

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            My thoughts are with you and your precious daughter AV
            This is absolutely devastating not to mention totally heartbreaking 💔
            I truly hope there is a strong support system available to help you both through this unexpected crisis
            I’m totally shocked and saddened at your news 😥
            Just know, you are not to blame and this is not your fault …. you are a wonderful loving, caring mother
            We are here if you need us 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. Chihuahuamum says:

            A Victor….Im so sorry about your daughter ill keep her in my prayers and you as well 💖

          12. Witch says:

            @A Victor

            I’m sorry to hear about your daughter, at the same time I’m glad to hear she survived and I hope the hospital is able to guide her in the right direction of where she can get further support.
            I appreciate why you feel angry about what happened… as someone who does have suicidal thoughts, if she is under the influence of a narc, she may have felt like she didn’t have any control over her circumstances and attempting to take her life was a way of her trying to regain control. When you feel that desperate sometimes it’s like being a fox in a trap; you’re willing to chew through your own leg.
            I’m wishing you and your daughter all the best

          13. A Victor says:

            Thank you. I don’t know if this daughter is under the direct influence of a narc. Her boyfriend’s dad called me while she was in the hospital. He lives in the upstairs of the house my daughter and her boyfriend are renting so she’s gotten to know him over the last year or so. He told me his ex wife is a narcissistic psychopath, I was shocked to hear him say such a thing so directly, and to a stranger. The call made me rather uncomfortable. I have not met her boyfriend’s family, and him only a handful of times. But my daughter has talked about some things that have made me wonder what she’s gotten herself involved with. I don’t have enough info to do a NDC on any of them. I have only seen her getting more depressed the longer she’s lived there. Thank you for your thoughts, I feel like I have a bit of direction now, she’ll be here Mon and Tues, I will try to ask her some questions, for more info but also to get her thinking possibly. Ugh, is going to need to be carefully done, not my strong suite. Thank you for the ideas and the well wishes.

          14. A Victor says:

            To all,

            To save HG’s time I will reply to all at once. Thank you for your words, they mean more to me than you know, this blog is an amazing support system. This was my youngest daughter, the one who has done the EDC, and learned much about herself from it. She’d been struggling with depression, they put her on a medication and at one month, this happened. She was in the ICU for 3 days, then on another floor for one day, they determined the episode was caused by the medication and released her. She has never been suicidal, this is why it caught us off-guard, but the medication says in the small print that this can happen to people under 25, she’s 24. Why do they prescribe such a thing to anyone in a risk group like that? Now it’s on her record, she has massive Dr bills, she was released with no further assistance though they told her to schedule with a psychiatrist, which she did do. I am baffled, it was terrifying, yet they’re just so… unconcerned about the whole thing. Her boyfriend is insisting that she stay with me while he’s working, she can’t be alone, he’s terrified of going through it again. Anyway, that is the update, we will continue to help her sort out why she was initially depressed, which is where I believe narcissists have caused her problems, and my reaction to some of those narcissists. Thank you all for your words, thoughts, prayers, love, it means a lot to me. 💕

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, I just read what happened. I am baffled about everything regarding the medication and extremely happy she survived and at least they found out why she acted that way. I can’t imagine the fear and the pain. I send all my strength and love, and truly hope things only get better from now on. She is surrounded by people who love her and care for her. You also need support and care, AV. Please, count on us too. We love you.

          16. A Victor says:

            Thank you SP, that means a lot. I love all of you also.

            Also, thank you HG for moderating this blog, and these comments, that means a lot also, as I hope you know.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome, AV.

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, I also replied last night to an old comment you left me some time ago and I never saw with some silly, comical examples of narcs I dated in the past, with the intention to distract you a little. Forgive me if it sounded too frivolous at this moment; I thought a good laugh would take your mind away for a while. I am happy to read everything’s slowly getting better. 😘😘😘

          19. A Victor says:

            I did read it! Thank you, the humor is great! It is a wanted distraction and not to frivolous at all. She is staying here the next couple days, I am hoping to have the right words. The seriousness of the situation can’t be denied but also, yay! She’s alive! It’s a second chance! So, some happy medium there. And, I’m going to hopefully bring up getting some NDC’s fine, I think that could really help her.

          20. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, how have these past days been? How is your daughter doing?

          21. A Victor says:

            SP, she is doing better, it’s so strange that something like this can happen and then life just goes on as if it hasn’t happened. She got a little tattoo of a semi colon and the top for is a cat, it’s cute. Apparently the semi colon represents solidarity and affirmation against suicide and mental health issues, the semi colon representing continuation and not an end. I had not known that, it is cute as well as meaningful. Thank you for asking. 💕

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I heard about it before, it is definitely a powerful symbol. I am glad to read that life just goes on. It is good it just goes on and that she is internalizing that this was a bump in her life that nonetheless doesn’t stop her from moving forward. I love the little personal touch of the cat head! I’m very happy things are looking brighter, AV! Hugs hugs!!

          23. Leigh says:

            I would imagine this must be extremely terrifying. I’m so glad to hear shes safe now. It’s probably best she’s coming home to you. Her boyfriend’s father sounds like a real winner. He might actually be the narcissist.

            I agree with Asp. I think a consult with Mr. Tudor might help. He’s extremely knowledgeable about empaths and might be able to help you with what’s going on in her head.

            As for the medical bills, many hospitals have programs that will help with that. The hospital should have a social worker that can help her with that. She may even be able to apply for medicaid to pay for the bills. See if there’s a social worker at the hospital that can help her.

            Much hugs to you AV.

          24. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, sadly she’s not coming to stay, only for a couple of days. I’m thinking the same about the dad. I would have to know a lot more about him to even do an NDC.

            I am planning a consult, that is a great point about what’s going on with her possibly. I feel like she’s really stuck, more by her own ET than anything. I think ET is somewhat synonymous with self sabotage, at least for some types of empath’s.

            She has good insurance, she’ll see what that covers and then I’ll let her know to check for programs. She is in school so that also may help.

            Thank you for the hugs and the words of wisdom.

          25. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for the mention. It is appreciated 🙂

          26. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, it must be a relief on one hand to know the medication was the cause of her suicide attempt. On the other hand, it is also frightening to think that so little concern was shown for that being the case. There does seem to be a trial and error system when it comes to different kinds of medication to treat depression, but to have overlooked the possible consequences of this medication in someone your daughter’s age seems irresponsible to me, no doubt for you there is a sense it could also border on negligence. As she is an adult, it’s not up to you to oversee any medication she is taking and I wonder if it was explained to her properly what the side effects might be. I’d recommend anyone to read the leaflets that come with the medication describing side effects as a precautionary measure before taking. We put so much trust in doctors, but it doesn’t always pan out, as in we also need to be the guardians of our own health. I’m sure she’s too young to know either way or to have considered these things. Medication does help with depression, but it can be a crap shoot as to which medication works best and who is going to be affected by any potential side effects.

            I’m glad she is going to be staying with you for a couple of days as you help oversee her recovery. Her boyfriend does seem concerned, so that is a good sign, and hopefully he is acting in a solicitous manner towards her. His family situation sounds a little ominous, and hopefully the son has escaped the narcissistic psychopath in the circumstances if it happens to be the mother. For the father to mention it could be based on something your daughter has shared with father and son having come into the knowledge of narcissism, and it’s always a precautionary element when the information is being shared so freely. Most of us are aware of the ‘crazy ex’ syndrome which is part and parcel of the narcissist’s repertoire.

            I continue to hope the best for your daughter, especially in terms of her recovery. She is very vulnerable right now, so it is good you are here and have the information at your fingertips that she might need. The fact she is open to it is also a good sign.
            At the same time it can be incredibly confronting. She is fortunate to have you right by her side in that sense, AV. We journey together <3 xox

          27. A Victor says:

            “We journey together” 💕 Thank you LET.

            It is a crap shoot, she will always read the inserts going forward I believe. The ‘crazy ex’ syndrome leaves me really wondering what’s going on…I do know the mother has some odd behaviors but the dad is questionable also…and I wonder about the boyfriend, they’ve been together for over a year and a half and I’ve met him literally like…5 times? They moved to his home town and I see her because she works near my town, but I have thought that was very strange. She was hurt that he worked on Christmas eve instead of coming to our family activity. But, when he asked if she could stay here while he’s working, he said, “I’ll come and hang out with her…if that’s okay?” So, maybe he’s just not certain we want him around. We are very different from his family.

            Thank you for your thoughts and encouragement.

          28. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, good to know she’ll keep a closer eye on the inserts going forward.

            Not sure how far away the boyfriend’s hometown is, but it’s good that she is working near your town so you can meet up. He might be a little unsure of his position, so it’s good he asked if it was OK to come to yours to hangout. One way to get to know him better. He sounds like a hard worker … maybe that’s why you’ve only seen him a few times … but I’m guessing what you want to make sure of is that he isn’t isolating her, and that being reason you’ve only met him a few times. Alternatively he could be shy, have some kind of ‘hangover’ from his own family circumstances that make him wary, and maybe if you ask your daughter she can give you a little more insight about why you haven’t seen the two of them together very often. It must have been disappointing for her on Christmas Eve, and she obviously values family, so that’s a good thing. She still wants to spend time with you and wants to involve him, too. Perhaps if his own family is a sh*tshow, he’s uncertain about how to be around family that get along. I’d take that over some guy who wanted to join the family as though he was a member when you hardly know eachother … you know, the lovebombing kind. This is one for HG’s input at some stage, I think. Just to be on the safe side.

            I hope her first few days back at home have been OK and she is doing better <3 xox

          29. A Victor says:

            LET, you hit my thoughts around the boyfriend exactly, I’ve been in watch and see mode since they got together. His town is 45 minutes from me so not a quick drive, so I do understand from that perspective and we all work full time, different hours etc. I’m pretty low key, these relationships, if they last, do grow over time.

            One thing I found interesting, “…some guy who wanted to join the family as though he was a member when you hardly know each other…” This is what my oldest daughter’s husband did. At the time I didn’t think too much about it but since have and your comment is right on, that should’ve been a red flag.

            Thanks for your comment, you are very perceptive.

          30. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I’m a little like you in adopting a ‘wait and see’ attitude, not getting overly involved in my children’s relationships. Time will tell many things, and thankfully issues of abuse haven’t arisen necessitating any kind of intervention. It can be a hard road to hoe as a parent once your children become adults. They need to create their own path in life and as much as we want the best for them we also can’t interfere with their independence or free will. Keeping an open mind and creating options for communication is probably the best any of us can do. With the information at our fingertips here, we know where to draw the line in terms of healthy and unhealthy relationship dynamics. It’s so interesting that your eldest daughter’s boyfriend played the hand of the narcissist which you can now clearly see in hindsight. You would have had no idea at the time, especially after having been entangled for a lifetime with narcissists of varying hues.

            Appreciate you sharing your thoughts again, AV. I think you’re very perceptive yourself <3 xox

          31. A Victor says:

            LET, what’s interesting is that with that oldest daughter’s then boyfriend, once I saw, I didn’t hesitate to act, I just didn’t take it far enough. I have recently realized this, had I actually stood up to him, instead of trying to defuse him by being docile, he might likely have ended up in jail, and I seriously don’t think he’d be married to my daughter today. But I’d not encountered anything like it before and was so afraid he would hurt me or one of my daughters (2 were there) in his rage that I kind of froze. And for her, even seeing him do that to me wasn’t enough to break through her addiction, it was already too late. So, maybe they’d still be married no matter what I’d have done and people could’ve been injured. I shouldn’t look back, can’t go back. But, I think I would handle it differently now.

          32. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, that sounds like a really harrowing experience your family had, and it also sounds like you did the only thing you could do, which was de-escalate the situation. That’s so important in a hostile circumstance where you are trying to prevent injury or even death. We can really only judge these things in the moment, and I’d imagine he was completely menacing, leaving you little choice in terms of being able to fight back. Freezing has now been added as a possible response to a threatening situation, the others being fight, flight and I believe ‘fawn’. A ‘fawning’ response is likely to be the one you described – acting docile, attempting to please or appease the aggressor. In the circumstances, it sounds as though you were unable to fight him (due to the danger that would pose to others as well), you were unable to flee, so the response you gave was the only one you were left with in the end.

            The fact your eldest daughter was present and involved and still not able to see past her addiction to him in the circumstances tells me she likely would have continued the relationship also. Fully under his spell, she did not react to his aggression the way she might have if she was not under his spell. No doubt he believed he had some kind of justification for his behaviour and probably convinced her of the same. This is the sad reality of narcissistic relationships. We are completely blinded to what is right in front of us. In that sense, I think both you and your daughter are blameless in this situation. There may come a time she will revisit that memory also and wonder why she didn’t act differently. As a parent we can only bear so much influence or responsibility.

            It kind of reminds me of the way you are supposed to put your oxygen mask on first before you try to help anybody else. You had no idea you even needed an oxygen mask, let alone have the ability to put one on and also help save your daughter from herself. I think we all have moments we would like to revisit, but who we were then and with what we knew at the time … it’s unlikely we would have done, or been able to do, anything differently xox

          33. A Victor says:

            LET, thank you, I had been feeling guilty about my response to this situation recently. Your words help, I think you are correct. And, it is yet another time when my ex was mia. He was the one who threw the biggest fit about them getting married yet he sent me to deal with this man alone. There were so many times like that. Had he been there, as a husband and father who has real concern would’ve been, that situation would have been very different I’m sure.

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, glad if I could help and the MIA ex’s drive me insane! Impossible to understand until you know they are narcs and narcs don’t offer support, but infuriating all the same. There’s no doubt both our husband’s could have made a huge difference to our kids lives and in the circumstances if they’d just fucking bothered to SHOW UP! Even when they were there, they weren’t, and left us to deal with whatever needed to be dealt with. Leaving you to deal with an aggressive male is hardly a feather in his cap, and he was likely the only one who could have stood up to another narc. Ultimately, I think he’s the one who let your daughter down in that instance, but there’s no point in dwelling on that either as the thought will just frustrate you. Pretty sure he won’t be dwelling on what is past, as we know narcs never do. They don’t do remorse, regret, or anything that doesn’t serve them. The only time it does serve them is when it is false contrition and if we’re taken in by it that will be our regret. Something else we probably both know all too well.

            There’s every chance your daughter’s eyes will still be opened and it might take a few more hard yards before that can happen. She’s got the best supporter by her side when it does <3 xox

          35. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Psychiatrists prescribe drugs, psychologists do not.
            Finding the ‘cause’ is imperative for your daughter.

            I was given medication that landed me in hospital, all resulting from narcissistic abuse, never again!
            I decided then and there I wanted to heal myself, naturally (hence this blog)

            I understand my thought process played a major role, I have not allowed my emotions to get the better of me. Hard but doable.

            Kids these days are way more savvy, I hope your daughter can learn from your valuable lessons and be steered in a clear emotional direction.
            Patience is the key and any toxicity needs to be removed.
            Sending you and your precious daughter positive healing vibes in moving forward
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          36. A Victor says:

            Oh Bubbles! Thank you for that! I will talk with her about going to a psychologist! I hadn’t even thought about that! Thank you! Yes, b she just needs to work through some issues, her mind isn’t “sick” otherwise. I agree so much, it’s about the thought process, getting down to the source, deciding to want to heal yourself, I agree with all of it! Thank you so much! 💕

          37. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            You’re very welcome A V
            Sometimes, one simply doesn’t need medication, but it’s there if you need it
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. k mac says:

          A Victor I am so very sorry! Sending you love and prayers for your beautiful daughter ❤

        3. Alexissmith2016 says:

          I’m so sorry to read about your daughter AV. I can’t even begin to imagine what you’re going through. Not even for one second. Huge hugs and love for you both xxx

        4. BC30 says:

          AV, I am so sorry and I am sending all my love. All my love. I am sending my best wishes for healing to your daughter, you, and your loved ones. ❤️

        5. Alison says:

          So very sorry to hear about your daughter. I wish you both a smooth journey of healing.

        6. k mac says:

          How is your daughter doing? How are you doing?

          1. A Victor says:

            K Mac, she’s alive, very embarrassed and very subdued, interestingly, she’s a Geyser, she’s never subdued. This tells me she realizes the gravity of the situation, I am thankful for this. I am okay, have been exhausted all week. This is the most terrifying thing I have ever gone through. I’ve been on the verge of tears every day but it lessens a bit each day. And very distracted, which is bad since I’m distracted to begin with. Thank you for asking, I appreciate everyone here so much. I will not tell my real life friends because she doesn’t need their judgement, or feeling like there’s judgement, so I am very grateful to have you all, more than you know.

          2. Joa says:

            AV, I think about you, please write about your worries, it helps.

            Your own child’s attempted suicide is the worst that can be experienced.

            The most important thing is to provide her now with a calm, friendly atmosphere, without pressure. Talk, but don’t press. Wait for the right moment and talk about what happened without showing excessive emotions. Give her a firm hug, if her body language indicates she wants it. Make it clear: I AM – I am there for you, whenever you want.

            Also, try not to control it openly, not to fall into paranoia, not to check. Contain your fear and panic. Do not ask every time and then how she is feeling, if everything is well. I know it’s hard. If you can, control her, but stealthily.

            It’s not the same, but my daughter a cut a few years ago. Hundreds of cuts, very deep, mostly on the thighs and hands. I thought I was going crazy. When the worst was over, she kept coming back to it for two more years.

            Lots of “light” conversations, seemingly off topic, about life, about what happens to the psyche in adolescence, how to deal with emotions and aggression. I talked a lot about my feelings and my sister’s feelings about this stage of life (we also cut ourselves, though not as intensely as she did). In short, I can say, that my daughter directed her aggression at herself – out of guilt.
            It is good now, she is more and more open to the world, she catch air in its lungs, wind in sails, and I hope she will never not go back to what it was. Contrary to appearances, “my N”, which appeared suddenly, helped a lot. Though he doesn’t realize it, I gave myself to him, so that he would give some of himself to her. I directed it very carefully. It was one of my goals. I was right, it helped. Very. He gave her a kind of confidence.

            I know you live far away from your daughter, and there is her boyfriend. A difficult task…
            Be very vigilant, look for the cause. Perhaps even she does not know her, but sometimes someone who loves, will see faster… The most important thing is not to impose anything, but to make it easier to find the light in the tunnel on your own, gently suggest a solution and wait until she decides. She has to find the answers herself, even if you can find them faster.


            I have no experience with antidepressants, but many women in my firm (who service the environment narc.) take them. One of the female veterans said, that you have to be careful, because a few weeks after starting the dosing and improving your mood, there is often a moment of regression, so severe that you have thoughts of suicide. Later this curve goes up again.

            Finally, I would like to add that sometimes a suicide attempt is just an attempt to attract attention. I keep my fingers crossed for you and your daughter to end up there.

            Lots of peace and composure in AV. And optimism, someone has to have it and carry it.

          3. Joa says:

            AV, you are circling my mind. One more thing. Attempted suicide can also be a form of manipulation. Yes, empaths also manipulate. You don’t know, what kind of relationship she has with that man and that house. Perhaps she wanted to say “enough.” Or maybe scare him. Or maybe take this account back to the beginning: “Look at me.” There may be thousands of reasons. Or maybe a completely different goal, that only she or only her subconscious knows about.

            My sister wanted to commit suicide in her teens. She went through all the fear and lamentation procedure of the family, the hospital and the medical checkup.
            It was only after a few years, when I was worried about her and mentioned the incident to her, that she told me that I didn’t need to worry. She never wanted to die. The reason for this suicide attempt was prosaic – for me, for most people. But at that moment the most important thing for her: she was saving another dog, and our mother said “enough” to this madness.

            The dog was saved. Reality bent to shes will. At that moment, she considered the suffering and fate of this dog more important than anything else.

            Sounds very unhealthy mentally, but I can assure, that my sister is a healthy, optimistic woman, wife and mother of children 🙂 I would not do something like that (only in my mind in that period of life), but I understand her.

            You also have to watch out for people, who abuse blackmail with suicide. My mom’s brother blackmailed my grandma many times. In the end, he managed to hang on the stairs in front of Grandma’s room. He was drunk, probably something went “too well” this time. In this case, however, the family breathed a sigh of relief that he was finally gone.

            I am just giving examples of how the “faces” of such acts are different. It doesn’t always have to be the worst – leaving the world out of despair and hopelessness.

            The reasons for the beginning of human life, as well as for the acceleration of one’s own death, are quite often prosaic, although “most important” at this point for an individual human being.

            The power of optimism for you, mother and daughter. Talk about life and your feelings, give yourself to yourself. I hope your daughter will sort everything out inside.

          4. A Victor says:

            Wow, thank you Joa, for sharing all this insight and knowledge. I will need to read your comments a couple more times to really get it all in my mind, but I do appreciate it.

            When I told my oldest daughter that the boyfriend’s dad had said he was going to make her do some things, she laughed and said, “Has he met her?”. Haha, she is an independent spirit in many ways, she once, at age 17, physically fought me in a bathroom stall at the zoo for her phone, she was seeing an older guy and I’d just found out. After that, I said, okay, she’s on her own, no trying to control that one! 😂 And, I’m terrible at stealth! But, I’ll see what I can do…

            Thanks very much Joa.

        7. k mac says:

          I’m happy to hear your daughter is recovering. The mental health system is an enormous crock of shit. The worst! All they do is through pills at people I’m my opinion. So many very sick people slip through the gaping cracks. They just don’t care.
          Your daughter has you and for that she is lucky. She will get past this. ❤

          1. A Victor says:

            I agree, an enormous crock of shit. They all ought to come over to HG’s blog, YouTube etc, he’s fix them right up, just as he has for us! Thank you K Mac!

        8. jasmin says:

          I’m so sorry to hear what your daughter and you are going through. I hope that you both will recover. Sending all my love.❤

          (I agreed that the throwing out of -‘my ex wife is a narsissistic psychopath’ to a stranger does smell very bad..)

      2. k mac says:

        Oh God, I don’t wanna know.

      3. k mac says:

        Hey Z,
        How do we get to the discussion forum?

        1. WhoCares says:

          k mac, sorry – jumping in. I believe if you have purchased the Knowing HG series (one through four) that you can ask for a password and link ( to the discussion forum) from HG.

          1. k mac says:

            Yes, I have them all and have password. I just wasn’t sure how to access it.

          2. WhoCares says:

            K mac – Okay, I see…well, have fun sleuthing!

        2. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          k mac,

          hahaha, you are so funny 😆
          “oh god I don’t wanna know”
          “how do we get to the discussion forum”


          First you obtain the 4 first knowing HG episodes, then you e-mail Mr Tudor to ask for the pasword of the forum, enter it here:

          et voila!

          Oh, and say farewell to your night sleep 😉


          1. k mac says:

            I know Z lol! Story of my life 🙃

          2. k mac says:

            Thank you Z ❤

          3. WhoCares says:


            “Oh, and say farewell to your night sleep 😉”


          4. k mac says:

            You are quite the little detective over there. My head hurts 😄

          5. k mac says:

            Hey Z , I skimmed through the comments on the private forum. I didn’t see any story about this subject.
            Also, he pushed someone off a cliff?

          6. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            k mac,

            I will search the link for you with the explanation of the hand. It is in the forum, but I admit you have to know your way down there to find things, it has become quit the labyrint!
            However, it looks as if our glorious host of the forum has lost the password to access the forum, hahaha, Mr Tudor, my little joke, you know it is said with a kind heart!

            One thing k Mac, never ever mention Information of the forum here on the blog, or Mr Tudor will not hesitate to act accordingly, whatever that will be. But yes on what you mentioned, that is explained in further parts of the knowing HG series. You need them all if you want to understand the discussions in the forum.

            I hope the forum reopens soon, so we can take our conversations there and you can ask me all the questions you want!!! Just not here on the blog, I’m sorry

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Not at all. the password is as detailed, following one change.

          8. WhoCares says:


            “it looks as if our glorious host of the forum has lost the password to access the forum, hahaha, Mr Tudor, my little joke, you know it is said with a kind heart!”

            Are you having problems signing in to the forum? I have no problem signing in, the latest password works fine (in my experience) and and I can read everything. My problem is that I cannot post and it has to do with the issue that Mercy and I discussed there in the forum. I COULD post there, if my laptop was still functioning and I use Explorer.. but my laptop won’t power up at the moment (battery/power cable issue). But I cannot post there with any Android devices.

          9. k mac says:

            Hi Z, I know, that was stupid of me. As soon I as clicked post button I realized what I had done. I’m actually surprised HG posted it. I have all of the knowing HG but I don’t recall these topics. I’ll have to listen to them again. I will have plenty of time to do so while I sit in the dungeon.

          10. Z - zwartbolleke says:


            “Are you having problems signing in to the forum? I have no problem signing in, the latest password works fine (in my experience) and and I can read everything”

            WhoCares, I was being a little naughty and a little teasing…no I have no problem signing in in the forum, and I know Mr Tudor has no problem signing in either, but it was an implicit reference to 3 month old comments for you and Mercy that are still ‘in moderation’, and it was a little joke that it seems that our glorious host has lost the password of the forum!
            Pfieuw I’m glad I survived that, Pahahaha!

          11. WhoCares says:

            “but it was an implicit reference to 3 month old comments for you and Mercy that are still ‘in moderation’, and it was a little joke that it seems that our glorious host has lost the password of the forum!”
            Ohh, okay! I appreciate the clarification.

          12. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            k mac,

            that is in Knowing HG part 9, L

          1. k mac says:

            Thanks Asp!

      4. WhoCares says:


        I can’t post on the forum right now.
        But I found your lost comment.
        THE comment.
        It’s not lost:

        1. Z - zwartbolleke says:


          WHOA 🎉🎉💛💛💛💛💛💛
          That is an AMAZING find!!!!!!!!
          I could kiss you now 😁

          I suppose it is not THE comment ( we must seem like crazy to people who haven’t followed this 🤦🏼‍♀️), because I remember it was from 2019, but nevertheless, it confirms what we wanted to know, Mr Tudor also admits a few lines further down: yes I was an adult.

          Great great catch!!!!!

          And I almost missed it… pure coincidence that I scrolled down a little bit, I don’t get notifications, WP is a mess…

          This time I have this comment that you found safely stored in my files! Will never lose this one – oh no!

          1. WhoCares says:

            Hahaha! Glad you saw it Z! (Guess what, I had that link my KHG notes from over a year ago, found it while reviewing and tidying notes, not searching the blog – it helps to revisit stuff! There’s so much to comb through, it becomes difficult to put 2 and 2 together.) So it’s not THE comment and there’s another similarly related comment? Hm.

            Grrgh. I hope I can resolve my forum posting issue once things (restrictions) open up here. So I can talk plainly to you over there!

          2. WhoCares says:

            “This time I have this comment that you found safely stored in my files! Will never lose this one – oh no!”

            I even screenshot it, Z.
            Maybe overkill, maybe not.

          3. k mac says:

            Z, there is a part 9? I didn’t see that. Thank you so much!

          4. k mac says:

            You are amazing Z. You are our Alastor ❤

          5. StrongerWendy says:

            Z, I found this re: your post in Knowing HG Discussion forum that discusses you searching for when HG started treatment (tried to post it there, but not sure posts are going through on that forum based on comments here?)


        2. StrongerWendy says:

          Tried to post two items in the Knowing HG Discussion forum yesterday (it’s been a while since I had checked it or posted )- hard to tell if they went through though.

          1. k mac says:

            Yeah, im not sure anyone is really active on that forum anymore.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Thanks Stronger Wendy. I know it does work dependent on browser and device – but with an Android device the comment just never finishes “submitting” the text box goes blank and the “cancel reply” button remains indefinitely. It just hangs.
            Good luck with yours.

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