The Tinder Swindler : Part Four

65 thoughts on “The Tinder Swindler : Part Four

  1. Rebecca says:

    Asp Emp,

    I learned from being around my mother not to talk, smile, laugh or act out in any way. She hated it. She hated my laugh, she said I sounded like I was cackling and she said it was very annoying and unbecoming. I was six when she snatched me from my dad’s lap and told me that he’s her husband and not mine. She was extremely jealous of my relationship with my dad and it was never inappropriate. She was just an asshole and tried to make me feel I was doing wrong.. Who says that to a 6 yr old?? What an ass.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Rebecca, thank you for sharing more about your experiences. Yes, I can relate to what you say here. It was also whether I would be believed if I had spoken up outside the “home”. Interesting – similar – muvver said to me “He is my husband, not your father”. Same night as I verbally ‘slapped’ her RE: police (LOL). It was a night of my defending my father and his memory against her.

    2. A Victor says:

      Rebecca, I am so sorry to read this. It is so similar to how my mother was, jealous of my relationship with my dad, even though she completely controlled it. And she would do inappropriate sexually suggestive things to him with me, like teasing him to see what he would do. It made me feel so horrible. My dad had a way of being inappropriate also, but it was not the same. And then the things they would tell me about each other and their relationship and what all, it was so sick. I really relate to your comment, and I am so sorry you experienced this, that I did, that anyone does, it is so wrong. I am so glad we are here now though.

      1. Rebecca says:

        Asp Emp and AV,

        I had a conversation about my mother’s behavior with my Aunt and cousin, my mother’s brother’s wife and daughter…just back in May of last year.. I found out from them that they suspected the abuse of my brother and I for years and that my Uncle was trying to get custody of us from my mother. They said my dad was a good person,but he had a blind eye as to what was going on in his household under his nose. They also said that they noticed my mother’s behavior changes and how jealous and manipulative she was. They worried she could seriously hurt us and that my acting out in school was a clear sign of abuse at home.
        I regret not talking to my mother about her abuse towards us, but we tried family counseling and all she did was convince the therapist that we were bad kids and she was the victim. Completely frustrating and pissed me off how she could do that….always the victim,never the abuser…they call that DARVO DENY ABUSE REVERSE VICTIM /OFFENDER
        She was so good at that…..looking weak and pathetic, but my Aunt, my mother’s brother and his daughter saw through her facade. It made me feel some relief that someone believed me,that it wasn’t a figment of my imagination,much like when my brother and I talked about mother’s behavior. It was a relief to know it was real,it wasn’t imagined. I hold on to that acknowledgement from all of them. My abuse was real, it happened, she was this abusive! I can say with confidence! She abused us! No one can ever tell me she was the victim! F+#%& that! Victim my ass! Anyone who beats up a defenseless child needs their ass kicked by an adult, preferably with a baseball bat! Swing batter, swing!

        1. Rebecca says:

          AV and Asp Emp,

          At the end of her life she was really, truly sick, not a fake sick that she put on for sympathy for years. I guess all the acting came back and bit her on the ass. She was diabetic since she was 30, but it didn’t bother her much until she was in her late 50s. She was insulin dependent, took R and N insulin three times a day with a needle. I’ve both tested her bloodsugar levels and given her insulin. Her diabetes attacked her heart,she had Congestive heart failure and later her kidneys shut down, so she was on dialysis for five years,every other day for five hours a day. The medicine they gave her for dialysis made her have strokes, so her one arm wouldn’t move, she was wheelchair bound and couldn’t talk due to the strokes. So, at the end, she couldn’t move much, couldn’t speak and was legally blind. I still felt bad for her,despite the fact she never felt bad for what she did to my brother and I. I both loved and resented her, and that messes with my head sometimes. How could I still love her? How could I stand in front of her and feel bad for her pain? I wanted to take her pain away. I didn’t enjoy seeing her suffer. It hurt me to see her hurt. 💔

  2. A Victor says:

    LET, I commend you for asking your daughter her thoughts regarding her father. I may not have shown such restraint, which can often be more successful than all the statements in the world. I will try to remember this going forward.

    I bore the brunt of it though they were hugely impacted by his leaving.

    I had a difficult but productive conversation with my son yesterday. I think you are correct, he will be okay.

    Today, having had time to process, I am much less concerned about being smeared to my children. They know me, they know my imperfections and my strengths, they know I do not try to manipulate them or anyone. They know I love them and have shown that by being here. They know that I have not smeared him to them. So even if he does do this, I think it would be not long lasting for them before they would see what is happening.

    Your observation that what the narcissist says and does to our children is out of our control is something I realized yesterday also, it is this not knowing what to expect that is the most challenging time for me, once he shows himself, and they all show their responses to him, I think I will feel less stressed by it all. At least then I’ll know what I’m dealing with, regarding their responses to him, which due to my NC should be nothing. And yes, as adults, they are in charge of their own destinies, I would’ve asked for a few more years for my son, but since that is not to be, I must come to terms with that.

    They are wily, like foxes! I hope I am just not in his thoughts.

    Thank you for your final paragraph of support and encouragement, that is so appreciated!

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AV, I had to hunt for this response, but glad I found it <3

      Thank you for sharing more of yours and your children's journey x

      Good to hear some of your fears around your son have abated. Sounds like the conversation you had did you both good. Fear of the unknown is the biggest factor often, and we just have to trust our children know us well enough not to be swayed. For me the proof is in the pudding, when you are the parent that has been there for them, dried their tears, had their backs, tried to guide and support them. Nothing can take that away from you or them x

      If you reflect on how your daughter was seeing her father without your knowledge and you seemingly didn't notice any change in her attitude or behaviour toward you, then I'd say that is one way you could ease your mind going forward in relation to NC. She will likely be a guide to the others, no doubt they will discuss things amongst themselves, too, and any noticeable change in attitudes might be a warning signal, but one you can counter by just being who you always are with them and not allowing his presence to interfere in your relationship with them. I think that is the thing we need to be on the lookout for – the narcissist changing our relationship with our children which they can only do if we fall victim to their manipulations again. Him reinserting himself into their lives should not affect how you interact with them going forward. If you've made it clear you don't want to hear, then hopefully they will respect that and you keep focusing on where your life is headed now that you are moving into the stage where in some ways it has become your own again. Don't let him upset your relationship with your children. Don't let him upset the path you are on.

      I know you hope not to be in his thoughts, but he is a narcissist and you are the former IPPS – or one of them. Going by HG's teaching this makes you a candidate for a hoover and firming up your NC regime in these difficult circumstances will be essential. I know you know that, but keep us in mind if/when you are struggling so you can get whatever support you need. Here for you xox

      1. A Victor says:

        LET, thank you, both for hunting for the comment and your comment in return. I actually have noticed a change in that daughter. Two or three times she has publicly snapped at me. It was very hurtful and as such, very out of character. I did talk to her about it, twice, and the first time met with resistance that she’d done it at all. The second she responded a bit better only and I made it clear that if she treated me like that in the future, I would be heartbroken but I would leave, I do not deserve such treatment. At that time, I didn’t know that she was seeing her dad and I was going through my narcissism education and she and I had spoken of it a few times. I don’t know if these things are what caused it, it has not happened since, it was last summer. I had not put two and two together until your comment, thank you for that. None of the others seem to have interest in seeing him at this time. If they decide to, I have a game plan, just to carry on as I have with them, as you suggest. I am grateful for your encouragement and support, more than you know. You have really caught my concerns in all this and stated them well, that in itself has helped me process it. And knowing there are others who’ve gone through these things and survived is always helpful. Thank you LET.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AV, glad I could be of help and I used my own situation to reflect on. I have felt challenged at times with my children’s ongoing relationship with their father and some other family members. My decision was not to focus on those interactions or anything that came out of them, but simply to carry on doing what I was doing and as much as possible not let it affect me or our relationships. Occasionally buttons will be pushed, and sometimes I react, but we can generally bring things back to where they need to be fairly swiftly. Like you, I won’t brook a lack of respect on my children’s part and they will know exactly how I feel and why. They can then decide how the want to approach the situation. If I am in the wrong, I will apologize. It’s two way street, and I don’t expect them to be at the top of their game all the time and know I’m not at the top of mine either.

          I am glad you were able to take it back to your daughter in terms of how you felt and where that might lead. One thing I do know is that if I don’t respect myself then I needn’t expect my children to respect me either. There are lines to be drawn and boundaries to be put into place. It would be nice if we could draw a boundary around them including them with us and keeping them away from the narcissist. It’s one of the thoughts I’ve had to learn to let go of and accept as adults they are going to make up their own minds. Hopefully I’ve given them the necessary tools to make good decisions. Doesn’t mean they won’t be hoodwinked or manipulated at times, but what I try not to do is take that out on them. I know who is responsible.

          It is interesting that thinking back you did notice an occasional change in your daughters attitude and behaviour. You pulled her up on it as necessary, and now you may have been able to shine a little more light on what was going on at the time. I don’t try to engage my kids on their father, but occasionally they will tell me something (e.g. Dad’s got Covid) and I’ll need to be responsive to that in order to be responsive to them. I don’t pursue it unless they bring it up again but will keep the answers short and sweet. In some ways, I’m a receptacle for their concerns and feel I need to reassure them as they are a long way from him. Personally, I have no feelings for him whatsoever. Thankfully, they are harder to manipulate at a distance as well.

          That being said, they will be seeing him in person later this year at a family wedding (his side) and all of them have seen him individually and with partners at some point since finishing school. They survived, were able to hold their own, and came back with some interesting stories to tell! They will show me picture of other family members and friends on their return, but know well enough not to show me pics of him or any of his shenanigans. They can share those amongst themselves. Once again, there is a part of their lives that remains separate to mine, and it’s actually quite a sad part of the impact of divorce in general, though in the case of the narcissist a necessary one. Sometimes I think it can take us back to our sense of a lack of control from childhood and the fears that surround that.

          Good to know you have a game plan going forward, AV, and keep standing your ground as necessary. It’s definitely more to your children’s benefit to maintain that distance between them and their father, though you have the greatest insight right now as to why that might be and hopefully your older daughter has taken some of that on board. Much as I struggle with it sometimes, “accepting the things I cannot change” is a mantra I need to take hold of … “the courage to change the things I can” is much less difficult for me, but the “wisdom to know the difference” is probably the most important part <3

  3. WhoCares says:

    I am enjoying this series so much.
    Taking bets with a RL friend on his school/cadre.

    I hadn’t ruled out aspects of Greater until I got halfway through part 5!

    1. A Victor says:

      Ha, WC, same! I was pretty sure in Pt 4 but Pt 5 was determinative!

  4. Asp Emp says:

    I’ll add to my earlier comment – again, that asshole thought I was “easy prey”, he asked me “do you want a lodger?”. This woman (me), he did not “access”. He was bed-hopping from place to place. Another sign of a “Tinder Swindler”! Falsified the accounts while I was away for a couple of days and I found the “discrepancies” after I lost my job. I emailed and informed the accountant. I get an apology from her. My bank statements were “backed up” by the company’s bank transactions – proof I loaned money to help that fkg shit set up a “store” in another town. Paper trail. I strongly suspect he made a lot of money via cash “movements” into one bank account (not using it for anything else at all) until he made enough to buy his house. He is that type of guy.

    Some of the stuff that he came up with sometimes was like, what?! It was his ‘magical thinking’, living in cuckoo-land! And he actually was a ‘cuckoo’ when it came to “closing” the doors of the business before fkg off into another town – pushed me out first, followed by the other people.

    I do not believe he worked on his own when it came to transporting the ‘goods’ – Lesser’s son? Lesser, himself? I would not be fkg surprised ‘let’s keep it in the family’. They all had cars (not brand new).

    Seriously, if I could afford it, I’d pay ‘Three Types of Revenge’ (LOL). Ok, that’s ET. The one person I’d gladly pay for his balls tied to to two shire horses walking in opposite directions. I’ll not be wearing my hearing aids while this is happening (LOL).….. I’ll stop there (laughing). I’d better put my psychopath / sadist / Machiavellian ‘streaks’ back into their box,……for now 🙂

    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Asp Emp,
      Sorry you went thru all that, however, I’d buy a ticket 🎟 to watch👀
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Bubbles, laughing. Tell you what, you pay the ‘hitman’ fee and I’ll film it, including the ‘scene’ where they are ‘cooked’ and served to him (laughing) 😉 xx

        1. Rebecca says:

          Asp Emp,
          I’ll bring the popcorn and drinks? What we drinking? Lol No alcohol for me,that I would not even risk doing lol

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Rebecca, there is no need for alcohol, you’d get the excitement from the entertainment 😉 Then again, maybe Bloody Mary’s may be apt (LOL). Maybe savoury snacks ie chilli peanuts?

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dear Asp Emp,
          You already offered to pay AE 😉
          Just as long as there are no prop guns, snigger snigger
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, Bubbles, there will be no ‘prop’ anything 😉 I’m an authentic chicken 😉

          2. Rebecca says:

            Asp Emp,
            I don’t need the alcohol,don’t like the flavor anyway, I do crazy things completely sane lmao

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Rebecca, “I do crazy things completely sane”……ah dearie me, I am so pleased to know that I am not the only one (laughing). Yeah, that’s the one thing that is so brill about this ‘space’ HG provides, somewhere to ‘find’ yourself in order to ‘be’ yourself again. That is one special ‘gift’ to give somebody.

          4. Rebecca says:

            Asp Emp,

            I’m also adventurous and too brave sometimes my impulsiveness gets me in trouble because sometimes I jump in before testing the waters, and then sometimes I’m overly cautious, it all depends on who I’m with and the vibes I get from them and the environment. I act according to my environment and the company I’m around. Do you know what I mean? It depends on my company,as to how I act. If I trust the person I’m with, I will be wild and free. If I don’t trust the person I’m with, I’ll be more reserved and cautious.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Rebecca, I know exactly what you mean. I suppose empaths also have the ability to be ‘chameleon’ like because of their ‘conditioning’ in their childhood, and also partly from ‘survival’ instincts. I like that RE: “wild and free”, yes, I get it 🙂 (laughing & smiling at that).

  5. lickemtomorrow says:

    OK, I think I have an idea why Ayleen appears shrouded to some extent now that HG has gone over some details and given his perspective. Aileen is an IPSS, not an IPPS. She believes she is IPPS (i.e. has been his girlfriend for 14 months) but has assumed wrongly due to his jetsetting lifestyle. In that sense he is operating without an IPPS and just garnering fuel from multiple intimate and non-intimate secondary sources. This would equate with the understanding HG has given us of the fuel matrix, but can he survive without an embedded IPPS? That is the question for me, or HG 🙂

    Just updating or revising my previous comment on Part 3 – I forgot to add Somatic.

    Upper Mid Range Somatic Elite Narcissistic Psychopath. Or does Elite include Somatic?

    1. A Victor says:

      Yes, LET, I caught that also yesterday, about her being the IPSS, but thinking she was the IPPS. And it did make so much sense! That is actually what happened to me also during the 7 years my ex and I “dated” before we got married! But I still didn’t pick it up here! It is all about the learning.

      I understand Elite encapsulates Somatic, you need both the S and the Cerebral in significant enough quantities to create and Elite.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        AV, it is indeed all about the learning. There may be a number of empaths not realizing they are an IPSS depending on the circumstances. It seems your ex decided to embed you as the IPPS after 7 years – how generous of him! We don’t know, though, and assume all is well in our little bubble of a relationship and that is partly because we are honest and they are not. It’s tough to come to the understanding HG brings us at times.

        Thanks for the heads up on Elite. Your’e right, Elite encapsulates Somatic and Cerebral. I went wrong on this one assuming some of his knowledge about diamonds and top shelf items possibly made him Cerebral. I’m glad to finally know the answer to that question and the ultimate question of what he is 🙂

        1. A Victor says:

          LET, I am glad to be well beyond the difficulty of coming to understand what happened with my ex. That was long in the past and once HG explained it, it made perfect sense, no problem, it made my Truthseeker trait happy! I just now have to translate it to other situations beyond mine, as this one was.

          I am glad to have been able to help on your second paragraph, I had also thought the same on this guy, but now we know! It has been a really awesome learning experience.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, your first paragraph is really positive and very encouraging. I’m happy for you <3

            This has been a tremendous learning experience for which I am very grateful x

          2. A Victor says:

            Thank you LET, I apologize if it was snarky, I think I was feeling that way when I wrote it, though not at you, just in general. I shouldn’t write comments when I’m feeling like that.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I’m sorry you were feeling that way and I sincerely meant how positive and encouraging what you said about your ex was <3 The idea that you got a handle on it and moved past it with HG's help. I'm happy for myself when I realize just how far I've come. I felt not one iota of sentiment for the narc ex on V-day, didn't think about him at all really. Yay me! Yay HG! I'm feeling less and less of a connection and, in that sense, more and more peace about it all. He has nothing to offer me. An empty shell of a person who's all about the 'take' and not at all about the 'give'. How could I ever count that as a loss? The fact he won't count it as a loss either doesn't bother me at all.

            It's good to get to a better place where we can put all that behind us.

          4. A Victor says:

            LET, yes it really is.

            Of course, yesterday I was at my daughter’s, the one that’s been visiting with her dad for a couple of years but had not talked to me about it. I knew because her sisters had told me. But I saw “Dad” on her calendar on the 19th, one day prior to me being there, and I asked her, she confirmed. Turns out he comes to her house, which is my old house that I lived in with him, my daughter and her husband purchased it from me a couple years ago. So, that did throw me for a bit of a loop, mostly that it will affect my son before I think he’s ready to handle it, and I’m kidding myself, he’s fine. But it is still scary for me, it could be dangerous or damaging to him. But I can’t let it keep me upset, I have to figure out some way to refocus onto something positive. It is not easy, I feel like he’s lurking now, I haven’t felt that way since he left almost 12 years ago.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, that is concerning, the sense of him lurking as it seems to have moved closer to home – as in he is visiting where you and your son are also visiting and spending time. It’s a little different if she was just going to her dad’s. Now it’s like he’s entering your world again, and is this the daughter with children married to a narc? I know you have three daughters, so forgive me if I’m mixing them up. Not sure how you feel about her having a close relationship with him – our kids make up their own minds – but you seem to have more concern about your son, which is natural as fathers would generally be a major influence over their sons. Is your concern that your son will come across him at your daughter’s house? Maybe his father will influence him in the wrong way? The fact he’s edging closer and on what you might consider home ground (your daughter’s home which used to be yours and his) might make you wonder if he will attempt a hoover. This may be a hoover by proxy, but I’m sure your daughter isn’t aware of such things or their affect. The worst of it is everything feels suspect when it come to the narcissist. And the closer they get, the more concerning it becomes.

            Definitely keep HG on speed dial if you need a consult to help with all this. I think your eyes have been opened very wide with regard to your husband since you’ve been here and I’d take advice from an expert if you are concerned or affected.

            Just been reminded of HG’s “Fear and the Empathic Victim” which I have, but still need to give a whirl. I’m pretty sure you have it and I don’t know if that will help. It’s always harder when our kids are in the middle of it. We worry more for them than we do for ourselves, but when we know they’re vulnerable it’s worse.

            Hopefully you’ve found something positive to focus on for now, AV.

          6. A Victor says:

            LET, thank you, your comment was so caring it literally brought tears to my eyes. And beyond caring, you hit on the exact reason it feels like lurking, he has entered my world. My son didn’t go on this occasion. He is very busy so doesn’t go often to his sister’s homes. This is my second daughter, btw, married to a really wonderful non-narcissist, they have 4 children. I haven’t been at all concerned with her having a relationship with her dad. Or her kids either. Now I’m worried though. About all of them. He’s very good at being bad while looking good. I keep writing sentences and erasing them, they sound nuts! Like I can’t even trust this blog to understand how it is, my own kids don’t even. But that’s backwards. It’s shocking to me how much I’m actually feeling this in my muscles and stomach, I lived this way for so many years, and thought it was gone. Here it is, right back.

            Thank you for the suggestions. I will relisten to Fear and the Empathetic Victim tomorrow. You are correct about our children and our worry.

            Thank you for your comment LET, it is very helpful.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, feeling a bit teary at your response <3 and also concerned about how it is affecting you.

            The daughter you mention sounds to be in an ideal position in terms of a happy marriage and family. There will be strength in that in terms of defence against your ex should that be required, but she's obviously been doing this for a while (meeting up with him) and so far come to no harm. At the same time, I've read another response you made elsewhere saying he's now leading an AA group??! He seriously knows how to con people (I'm believing every word you said about him) and it would be hard to know on the basis of that if he is conning your daughter. Narcs won't hesitate to con all and sundry in their world, even their own children. No doubt this is where your fear comes from … he's getting closer to impacting their world and yours again 🙁

            I did see HG comment on the NC regime, and I'm sure that might cue a consult as I have no idea how I'd deal with your current situation. We can't tell our kids what to do and not do at this age and stage. As adults they will make up their own minds. We can't stay separate from our children's lives, and it is concerning as a parent that they can at times live two separate lives in a sense, one with us and one with the ex.

            My children will tell me about their father and certain instances they are either concerned about or think might interest me! I literally have not had one on one contact with the ex-husband in at least 8 years, but people have died and the kids have told me and I've passed on my condolences through them, etc. It's a tough call. They interact with his family via social media options and there's nothing I can do about that, but nor would I want to interfere. His family is their family, too. Like you, I don't like to talk to them about what happened in the marriage when they were children and mostly unaware. Mine were so young when we parted, they haven't got a clue. Hence he's been able to maintain the facade for the most part, mostly due to the fact he is light years away from where we are, which also makes my situation very different to yours.

            Anyway, I said all to emphasize the point that it's hard to make a complete break where your children are involved. In your ex's case there might be added concerns around his influence due to his nature. They're so insidious and that's the scary thing. He went from her visiting him at his home, to him visiting her at her home (which used to be your home) and may be making an attempt to creep back to you. You know what he is now, you've been adamant about your experience with him and how he left you, and now you might need HG's help to know how to build those walls of protection as high as you can to keep him out of your life. You can't control his entry into your children's lives again, but seeing your defences building or secure may well be a warning to them and also encourage them to keep their distance.

            "It’s shocking to me how much I’m actually feeling this in my muscles and stomach, I lived this way for so many years, and thought it was gone. Here it is, right back."

            Such an awful feeling, to sense you are moving on, healing, growing and here comes 'the dark' again. Just when you've taken those first few gulps of fresh air and sanity, the madness is once again making it's presence felt. You really need shoring up at this time, and I'm sandbagging like mad here hoping the floodwaters will recede again. It feels like the water is creeping up the bank and getting ready to engulf you.

            You're strong, AV, we're here for you, and HG is a mastermind when it comes to his own kind. Wishing you strength and ultimately peace as you forge ahead xox

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, my kids recently have been much more dismissive of all things narcissist, even thinking I’m taking it way too far, that I think everyone is a narc. They absolutely don’t understand the dynamic, my oldest, married to a narcissist, is in denial, my second, having contact with her seemingly sweet but ill dad, also in denial I fear, the third I have expressed already, so only my son. He says right out that his grandma is a narcissist, he can see it with her. But he won’t with his dad, if they have contact. And his heart wants a father, which I totally understand. They will forget, at least for a while, I was the one there, that raised and took care of them. He is good at what he does.

            Yes, you see the irony of him leading a truth based effort and people thinking he can do so. I believe he cons everyone and those he can’t con, he smears and makes them appear crazy. He’s done this to me already, all of this. Now I will get the smearing and crazy, but directed toward my children. It is only time that will tell what they decide. I have to carry on regardless and not allow it to sink me. I had scheduled already with HG late last week for a future consult, prior this coming to my attention, Providence, even if only to my mind.

            I have exactly the same experience with my children telling things and social media etc. It’s been over 10 years since I’ve seen or heard from him directly, the two years at the beginning was only a very small handful of times. But yes, with adult children, there is nothing to be done except to say please don’t talk to me about him, or him about me. And hope they respect the second part. I don’t think they do discuss me, there is no point to doing so.

            Thank you for the sandbagging, I see it and I will meet you in it! It is the unknown, and the known, so frightening. And I feel so alone, no one here, in my real life, gets it, no one. Thank you for the sandbagging, it is encouraging, and thank you for the well wishes also.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I can relate to much of what you said in your first paragraph, and you’ve been much more forthright in discussing narcissism with your children which I commend you for … me, not so much. I’ve made it clear to them the nex was a narc, and they know I’m looking into narcissism and have been for some time based on that relationship. One day, out of the blue, my eldest daughter asked if I thought her father was a narcissist. That one took me by surprise as she was his ‘blue eye’ and I had not suggested to any of the children their father was a narcissist. Somehow, I knew it would not go down well in the sense they’ve maintained contact with him from a distance, and providing such an assessment was likely to be dismissed due to his facade. I asked her what she thought. Pretty sure she said “Don’t know”, so erring on the side of caution. Not wanting to say outright if he is or isn’t.

            In your situation the children are more proximate to the narcissist and have a history with him which will encourage their contact. I don’t know how much they were impacted by his behaviour, or if you bore the brunt of it and so they were spared, but I can understand your concern around your son. Boys need fathers and your son may overlook any negatives for the sake of reforming that relationship going forward. There comes a point in our children’s lives where they need to find out for themselves what has been affecting us and how that might affect them also. The fact your son can clearly see the issue with your mother around her narcissism is encouraging. He’s got some insight and information to back him up right now in terms of his understanding. That might help if he notices behaviours with regard to his father, plus you’ve been there for him when his father hasn’t. No matter how much his father may attempt to ‘con’ him, he sounds like a young man who has some clarity of vision about the world around him and is open and willing to ask questions. He may not be as easily ensnared based on that.

            The thought of your ex turning your children against you – as in smearing and painting you as ‘crazy’ – is also possible. I say that based on what he is, not on who you are. Narcissists like to divide and conquer in order to have and maintain control. I think it is a test our children at times will be forced to endure due to the narcissist’s nature and the need to smear us when we are painted black. At the moment, I don’t know how you are ‘painted’, but it certainly is providential that you have already lined up a consult with HG. There will be a lot to talk about. Once again, what the narcissist says/does with regard to our children is out of our control. In some respects I am making my peace with that as I can do no more in term of making myself available to them. I am here if they want to talk. I am not in charge of their destiny now they have become adults.

            You are on the right track with requesting your children don’t discuss your business with him. Hopefully they will respect that and he won’t find a way around it to get information. Often I think the problem in that sense lies more with the narcissist and ways they try to glean information. They are wily, like the fox.

            We’ll keep sandbagging here, AV, as long as you need. There is a sense we’re all in this together having often suffered the same experience and fallout from that xox

          10. A Victor says:

            LET, I think my reply to your comment here went to one end of the thread or another, not sure why. Hope you find it.

          11. Joa says:

            AV, I believe that especially the Savior with various admixtures, depending on the needs of Narcissus, is a tasty morsel as a “retirement plan”.

            At least in the way I understand the frames described by HG and how I feel it myself.


            If you feel he lurking, it sure is. I also very often feel “my N.” + analyze the appearing symptoms, usually “indirect”, coming from his environment.

            The most important thing is to maintain a positive aura, this is the best barrier. But no fountains 🙂 Stable.

            Regards and hugs 🙂

          12. A Victor says:

            Thank you Joa. He already got all my money so I don’t know if it’s be a great retirement plan. But, he’ll take anything if given any opportunity. Thank you for the comment and the hugs.

          13. Joa says:

            AV, I didn’t mean money, just traits.

            But, of course, the material situation will also be taken into account.

          14. A Victor says:

            Ah, I see. Yes, any of the prime aims could be up for grabs if he got back in. And even if he doesn’t get back in with me, he will get fuel knowing he’s affecting me through my kids. There’s no way to avoid that.

  6. Savoy Truffle says:

    He wasn’t lying about his “business trips” – scamming women is his business!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Fair observation.

  7. Asp Emp says:

    Wow. Thank you SO much, HG for these on ‘Tinder Swindler’.

    The ‘Tinder Swindler’ series reminded me so much of that Lesser’s son-on-law. He could not provide a P45 from his previous employer so the company could register him as an employee for tax / national insurance purposes. We had an external payroll / company accountant. He’d stated that he worked for a certain employer and a colleague contacted the head office, then there was unsurprising but damning information. He’d provided his girlfriend’s bank details so he could get paid his wages. He could not produce a receipt of a £1,000 “purchase”. These are only a FEW examples…..

    “defrauded individuals”
    “defrauded banks”
    “defrauded…..” so many areas, that Lesser’s son-in-law did.

    Grandiosity, entitlement, gas-lighting, blame-shifting, greed, self-inflated importance. What I will add, is that that b*stard also had less, or no cognitive empathy compared to the MRNs I have known, never mind the lack of emotional empathy. He was also ‘tyrannical’, Machiavellian in his approach towards people. There may be people who have more of the psychopath ‘slice’ of the dark tetrad and that is what I believe that son-in-law had. He was clever, but not intelligent. My paper-tracking skills were better than his. They got rid of me before I could present the evidence. Alas.

    However, Lesser’s son-in-law did let his ‘mask’ drop, the malice, the really dark look at me when I started questioning RE: for the invoices of purchases etc, I was doing my fkg job FFS. I was paid to do my job. I did not ‘fear’ him as such. He just did not like my questioning. It was my legal duty as a paid employee of an official organisation that was partly funded by various authorities…..

    I am so fkg glad that it was not necessarily a major financial loss on my part but my instincts ‘served’ me well I would say. Maybe I actually got off rather lightly compared to the victims in the Tinder Swindler case.

    My ET is ok as I type this.

    I really appreciate your education, HG. I see it all so clearly, especially with this video series. Thank you, HG x

  8. Pingback: The Tinder Swindler : Part Four - Dark Triad Personality
  9. A Victor says:

    Well, I got this wrong but I learned some things from it, so it’s okay. My revised guess, with having watched through Part 5, is UMR Somatic. Upon watching the video regarding her, I guess Anna Delvey as a UMR ELITE, so hopefully I get one of them correct! Or, it’s study on…

    1. jasmin says:

      Hi AV,
      I want to catogorize him as a UMR as well.. but that flat voice! Not even the LMRs I’ve met talk that devoid of emotion.. Or have I’ve been both blind and deaf?!🤔

      1. A Victor says:

        I think that voice is part of the sense of haughtiness to a lot of people, like he just can’t be bothered to use inflection.

        1. jasmin says:

          That make sense!

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        The flat voice is interesting Jasmin, I can’t think of many Ns with a flat voice. Although many do have a similar voice which they use for different situations. My sister, who I suspect is UMR elite goes over the top with her reactions. Whether that’s a positive reaction to something you’ve done well, or a supportive response if something hasn’t gone so well. Ans you’ll get the same very expressive “oh dear, oh no, that’s a terrible thing to happen” to a stubbed toe as you would if your dearest loved one died. Its clearly such an over the top response for most of the situations she applies it to and it irritates me hugely. But other people are oblivious to it? And love the response she gives them??

        It’s like she’s learned people love this type of reaction and one size fits all. Also likely shows her that she cares no more about your loved one dying than if you’d stubbed your toe.

        1. A Victor says:

          I suspect that flat voice has more to do with psychopathy.

          1. jasmin says:

            Yes, I suspect that too!

            Whilst he don’t know what he is I think that he know what he was doing and he just saw his victims as stupid AF.

            Alexis, I can understand your annoyance with your sister. I find that behaviour very irritating myself. One size does not fit all! She needs to do some improvement..😉

          2. A Victor says:

            Jasmin, I think you’re correct. My ex had a flat voice, my dad did not, though he was the same school as this guy. “saw his victims as stupid AF” haha, this made me laugh. My dad would’ve thought this also had he done this, he did think it about everyone anyway.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Jasmin, reading these comments just now it occurred to me that I was wrong. HG states in a recent interview that he did, not sure which one, that the lower narcissists, lower than Greaters, don’t always learn to use inflection so their voices can be flat. This would have nothing to do with psychopathy but everything to do with them not connecting how using inflection could help them achieve the prime aims.

          4. Jasmin says:

            Hi AV!

            Thank you for your feedback. Now we know about the flat voice! I don’t think that I have experienced it?
            Too bad you forgot about which interwiew it was?! Seems to be an interwiew that I’ve missade. Many of the interviews are found on the interviewers YT channel so they go missed. I will have to do some searching!

            (Too bad sounds a bit harsh to me 🤔 but that’s the translation I get. I don’t mean to be rude.)

            Have a lovely day.🥰

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi Jasmin, no problem on the “too bad”, I understood and didn’t take it badly. I think it was The HG Tudor Interview that HG put on his channel about two weeks ago. At about 37:07 he talks about the voice and flat tone etc. On reading the transcript just now I see he mentions The Imitation Game also regarding some of this, though I don’t know if it addresses voice/tone specifically. I wish I knew how to link it, I apologize.

            Have a great day! 💕

          6. Jasmin says:

            Thank you AV! I found it. 😊
            I had listen to it but missed that part. I either got interrupted or more likely my mind went to a memory (triggered by something said before).

          7. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome!

        2. Another Cat says:

          So interesting, Alexissmith
          I just remembered. The father of my children does this very same thing, also an UMR elite I suspect. The reaction “Oh dear!” is the same. He will even interrupt the person who explains what happened to them, with that strong “Oh dear, oh my!”. Of course, he doesn’t feel the compassion but this way of mimicking it clearly suits him.

          If third parties happen to hear these strong reactions then he gains even more control over that person, as if that person has a lot of issues, maybe is “a little too tired” or “a little old”. Sometimes it’s an older professor at his workplace, say, who is searching for an item. “Oh, dear oh god, you lost that. I understand!!” while it’s a tiny item within seconds picked up again by that older person.

          This just popped into memory again. The almost-no-contact has made me forget.

          Totally understand, if you have contact with her still, that you’re tired from it. It’s these many everyday little things, going straight to the unconscious mind, inaudible to the conscious.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi AC, I had forgotten that about my ex also, until this conversation. I think it was one reason I remember him being so boring.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            The father of your children does sound strikingly similar! I’m pleased you’re as close to NC as you can be with him.

            I went NC with my sister for approximately 10 years, way before I even knew anything about Ns or NC etc. I just knew she didn’t make me feel nice but I had no idea why. there was always something different about her, I never understood what made her tick? I was all about living for my friends/family/love/fulfilling my life and others. She just seemed dead and empty, not unhappy but unfulfilled in some way. Cold, yet seemingly ‘bubbly’, everyone’s friend. The most important thing to her was always having lots of friends and lots of people to buy her presents and shower her with attention.

            I had no choice but to end NC when my mother was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Having to be in contact with her at that time was horrendous, my ET was understandably very high. I did it for my mother. But I had followed HG for a few years at that point so I managed it carefully by applying everything HG had taught me. I ended up going supernova on her. I bet she didn’t know what hit her. She did some absolutely despicable unbelievable things at that time, even with my learning from here, I grossly underestimated her. But this time my SN was 1000% calculated and controlled. Previously I would have reacted and whilst I would have achieved what I wanted to, she would have received much fuel from it. This time, despite my ET being high, I was able to meticulously plan, relax, not act on her STs (STs would have previously made me check in to see what was happening, but I knew what they were and when and why she was doing them), I used some clever little tactics to bring them to an end instead of using a direct approach. I was also able to bide my time and wait when the situation demanded it, knowing they would end at some point. My SN was far more effective that way. Given my ET at that time, it was bloody hard, I just had to keep reminding myself of what I had learned. I know HG would have been sooooooooo proud (n or not) that everything he has taught us was put to good use. I may write about it one day in a letter to an N or something. I planned to go NC with her once everything was over. But once we reached that point and it was rather drawn out, I just didn’t care any more. She lives around a 3 hour drive from me. Once my mother died, and everything had been processed, she no longer had any hold over me whatsoever. I only every respond to her messages, I never initiate any contact with her. This is the first time I’ve mentioned what happened on the blog. I alluded to it in the past but never spoke about it.

            My mother used to write lots of things down, not quite a diary but she’d keep written accounts of things from time to time. Anyway, one thing she’d written about my sister when she was about 5 years old was some lovely things about her, but she also wrote that she seemed to cry for effect and that her tears did not appear genuine. My ET was high at that point and I threw it out, I did not want to keep anything which prompted me to think of my sister. I wish I had kept it, but I hold the words dear to me. My sister was the golden child, I was “difficult”. I was very principled, I’m not any more. Not at all. My personality now bears no resemblance at all to how I used to be.

            I remember when I was starting out in life, early 20s and my great aunt passed away, she had left me some money in her will. I never liked her, so I wouldn’t accept it?! I thought how can I take money from someone whom I’ve hated my entire life. So I didn’t. Now since learning here, I would. Even if I gave it to charity or something. I was bloody stubborn back then hahah. I would cut my nose off to spite my face, just to stick to what I believed in.

            My sister regularly sends me gifts, previously I would have sent them back, given them away, thrown them away or felt the need to do something nice in return. I would have thought, she can’t be such a bad person can she? she’s sent me this. Thanks to HG I don’t experience any of those feelings any more. if she wants to gift me something, go ahead. I don’t feel debted. I’ve well and truly repaid my debts to her with my childhood. This sounds a little bit angry, but I promise I don’t feel angry in the slightest, these are just facts. I feel completely indifferent to her.

          3. Another Cat says:

            Oh, I understand that must have felt insecure, going no contact with your sister back before the knowledge of manipulative personality disorders, narcs, and being insnared by Upper Mid Elite is very tiresome and tricky indeed, many many people respect and love the person. They are extremely good at covert bullying, often academical etc. Handsomely dressed and all.

            I still have some friends left who he hasn’t charmed away. They don’t dislike him at all, I think, just that, time passed and he is not often on their minds.

            You accepting gifts sent is up to you, if you really don’t get emotions from them. I am far from that point though.

            Grand sum total: I get how lonely it feels around the Upper Mid Elite narcissist and their coterie Alexissmith. Undescribeable to others.

          4. It was odd Cat, when I went NC with her. It had been building up for a while and I just knew it would make me feel better. My husband kept telling me I would regret it and not to do it. But I never listen to advice from others hahaha. I just somehow knew it would feel good and it did. My confidence literally soared over night. It was the best thing g I ever did and I never once looked back and regretted it. I get bad for my mum, even though we weren’t close but I never regretted it. I ignored all her hoovers. Didn’t answer the door, hung up on any calls and said nothing. My husband found that difficult. He never liked her but he struggled with the hanging up the phone etc if she called.

            But now, she doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t struggle in thinking of her. She barely pops into my mind except if something triggers a memory but that’s it snd I don’t feel any positive or negative emotion, just nothing. When my mum was ill, I did have feelings but they had been absent for 10 years during NC and they’re totally absent again now. She has no control over me. Nothing at all.

            I’m sorry yours charmed away your friends, that’s awful! Pleased others haven’t been but it’s sad they don’t see him for what he is.

            I hate him on their behalf x

          5. Another Cat says:

            Oh I’m so happy for you Alexis. My ex husband (Upper Mid) forced me more and more contact with both our mothers (Micromanaging Middle Midrangers) It was horrible. Of course he unwittingly felt the power.

            But I do realize NC can be difficult to instigate and receive understanding about, even if your spouse is Nonnarc.

          6. Another Cat says:

            … and in one case he even “called for help” for the person whom me and others hadn’t noticed anything ill about. I’m now thinking back realizing how misplaced and damaging that “help” probably was.

  10. Asp Emp says:

    Thank you, HG 🙂

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