What the CoDependent Empath Does
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Annaamel,
„…while I do feel I belong in that category, I don’t relate to the way Contagion is discussed on the blog.“
It has to do with the Cadres, I think. Geyser impacts on how contagion empathy is experienced/ discussed.
HG: For instance a majority Contagion that might be a majority Geyser, or very strong, or strong Geyser, what happens is they can take on the joy of another person, that they sense and then detect and witness the joy of that other individual which is transferred to them but then it becomes amplified by the Geyser aspect in terms of their cadre which results in exhilaration. It goes beyond happiness, but it creates a delirious ungrounded sense of exhilaration. The joy is pushed past and it becomes a frivolity and it means that the individual is unable to settle, they keep moving. They end up imprisoned by the exhilaration even though it stems from joy there is a destabilizing effect which then means that as a consequence of experiencing the almost delirious exhilaration the Contagion empath is forced to retrieve and find an alternative place to purge themselves of the excess energy that they have taken on.
__
I remember your contagion percentage to be higher than that of others. But you don’t have the Geyser or Martyr.
„HG: School relates to driving behaviours mainly, cadre with regard to preference behaviours.”
Jordy,
I love what you wrote. I know it was a reply for someone else but I sure can relate to everything you said.
My Geyser isn’t very high but I am a contagion majority.
My joy can get over the top when someone I love experiences extreme joy. I get a rush, almost a high. I feel other people’s joy and happiness as a contagion but I only get the exhilaration when someone I love is joyful, probably because I’m a low level geyser.
I just had an ah-ha moment.
Thank you!
You are welcome and thank you, lovely! I redirect your thanks to HG💕 It’s from the Contagion Video😚
Hi Jordy,
Thankyou for thinking about why my experience might be different. Perhaps it is cadre related. You’re right, I don’t have the geyser cadre.
I’m not surprised I was off with my directors eye theory. It’s not really my field. I can understand that an actor needs to keep many things in mind.
How exciting, to meet Tom Cruise. Was it on a film set?
As to kissing, it’s true, cerebral narcs would not be into it, regardless of who it was.
Annaamel, yes, I realised that Cadres play such a huge role actually, I didn’t pay attention to it as I realised I am out to do now, after I relistened to the Cadre series, I see how it impacts actually. Absolutely fascinating! Martyr is Carrier 2.0 and Geyser doubles up emotions. Overlaid with emotional thinking…wow!
TC met on set, I wish😍! No🥲 just a questioning opportunity and I love his answer. It says so much about the acting profession.
Cerebral narcissists in the film business would end up behind the camera, writers, directors, producers… I’m discovering it as I’m looking through my favorites now.
The actor who puzzles me the most is Christopher Walken! His remarks and behavior in interviews is so intense and relaxed at the same time. He avoids eye contact, but then when he looks at „you“ it’s a shot and a tractor beam!! He’s so in control! Yet so legere!
I compare him to the actors of whom we know are narcissistic and normal, so I wonder… But they are still quite different.
What are your favorite actors/directors of whom we know from HG or whom you’ve identified as narcissists?
Jordyguin! Yes Christopher Walker. Married forever no liaisons reported. No children. Mixed up in Natalie’s death. Plays villains well yet…gosh I have no idea what category he would be. Thoughts?
Contagious and Jordyguin,
Christopher Walken is one of those actors who confuae me too. I wonder if HG has analyzed him yet? Xx
Contagious! I know!! I found his interview on „The Dick Cavett Show“( https://youtu.be/_o5d6ZFkNpI?si=Vgtrb5MWnJppHdhy ) and all of the Conan O’Brian interviews (for instance this one https://youtu.be/J2fbWOAZpkc?si=58tHaZ3Lyqkxv0DL ) are almost telling, but eehhh so difficult to say. Look at the eyes and the smile of “I know something you don’t”. The demeanor is casual, he is enduring the circus (interviews) but also amusing himself by playing with the host and the audience, which turns out to be funny but also otherworldly. And then there is an early interview on Natalie Wood’s death. Is it showing something? ( https://youtu.be/N0fm42MGMGc?si=3fO2IV5uwhTryh_W )
Walken on the psychopath image and his acting https://youtu.be/9ZzyM5lkDhc?si=QRYPXpwj6w9kribR
Began to study psychology but left for acting/musical.
When asked if he would make a good president? (someone created a page „Walken for President“ back then)
Walken: „I’d be good at appointing people. I wouldn’t be a good president. I’d be good at picking people. But if they want me to be president, I’ll do it. Whatever.“
(And his first thought at being a president)
Walken: „No more zoos. Let all the animals free.“
(Yes! I’d vote for him.)
Walken: „My presidency would be global.“
Conan: „You have ideas.“
Walken: „Well I do.“
But Walken points at himself as the man behind the scenes, initially. (Aware of his abilities of seeing through people and orchestrating them?)
Mel Gibson freaked out when he and Walken talked about medieval torture and Walken topped him with his knowledge about it, so Gibson didn’t want to work with him.
He has an unusual speech pattern.
He got the stare. (Or it’s just the way he looks.)
Steals wardrobe from the films he worked on.
He says that he just plays versions of himself and never a character because „himself“ is the only thing he knows.
He can freak you out one second and make you laugh the next.
On set, he never breaks character (in control).
Good at playing eccentric, comic, unusual, terrifying, intimidating.
He prefers playing the evil characters.
Worked as a lion tamer at one point. Likes animals also as inspiration for his characters.
Still married to his only wife, for over 50 years. No children (he didn’t want children). “”She was a fox. She is a fox. We loved each other right away,” Georgianne felt the same and it didn’t take long for the couple to walk down the aisle. She worked in the entertainment industry, although she has starred in a couple of projects, she put her focus into being a casting director.”
Walken was considered for Han Solo in Star Wars. (Woohoo! What would that be like?)
He loves his work and he wants to work all the time without any break. Ideally working on one project, whilst preparing for the next simultaneously.
Sam Rockwell (an accomplished actor in his own right) about Walken: “He is so many other things, so complicated and complex.”
___
Christopher Walken is consistent, subtle, unanticipated, respectful, respected, admired, aware, understanding of the human nature/psyche, no scandals, no bad press, no one has anything bad to say about him. Only positive, praising words. He is in control, isn’t he? Or simply just serious and empathic?
Nöö idea…It’s a hard one, come on! Perhaps I would suspect a Greater or Narcissistic just because I cannot imagine an empath outdoing Mel Gibson on medieval torture and stealing wardrobe from film sets, I guess.
What do you think???? What vibes do you get from him??
Jordyguin:
Your factual analysis of Walken just made me wonder more!
1. “I think I’m kind of known for being a little odd.”
2. “There’s only one thing I don’t like about Hollywood – they don’t honor their contracts.”
3. “I don’t need to be made to look evil. I can do that on my own.”
4. “I tend to play characters that I can infuse with certain kinds of humor.”
5. “I try not to worry about the future – so I take each day just one anxiety attack at a time.”
So he is married long term. No scandels. This would lead you to believe he is an empath.
He has kept private the events surrounding Natalie Woods death. Does not discuss it but he gave an account. Private.
He keeps his relationship private.
It’s his eyes… that stare… and his ability to play villains or those who have lost their mind ( the Deer Hunter) that’s creepy.
He is the youngest of 4. Started dancing at 9. Encouraged by his parents and sent to the Professional children’s School of manhattan for dance. Hardly a manly pursuit especially in those days. And his parents supported him with time and money. His parents were hardworking immigrants. His father was a baker. Not rich so they must have really nourished z” Ronald” as a child.
Also he is reliable. Very dedicated and hardworking. Not a slacker and no known scandels. His quote about Hollywood not honoring contracts. Yet no known lawsuits. No criminal record. He loves animals. He would rather appoint then control or take credit.
I think he is simply a brilliant actor and if you take away his roles that are fictional, all signs point Empath. If so what cadre? My guess is contagion as his sensitivity must be quite high to perform with such intuition to roles, and to connect with others. And he might be joking but his quote about anxiety infers sensitivity? And his stare is “ all knowing” like you said. So maybe he knows the feelings of others.
He answers the interviews authentically or seemingly truthfully but his ability to play evil is just un- nerving….
?
Also he listens, seems uncomfortable with complements and is very humble in interviews. He considers himself “lucky” to be an actor. He doesnt Think he could do anything else but “ go to work.” He lives in the country in Connecticut or NATURE. All signs scream empath. He doesn’t hunt or fish. He can’t swim. He downplays is abilities almost shy and sensitive. I can’t really guess he cadre, I tried but he seems to be an empath. H.G. would nail it. Of course. It’s so educational his bio analysis. Would love to see him do CW!
Thanks!
Finally Jordyguin you asked about the interview about Natalie and if it showed something to me. To me, yes. I think he resented having to talk about her death. I don’t think he liked the questions. So he stared at the interviewer at one point between breaks and his inner discomfort or disgust was plain to see. I could see his dislike over the questions in his eyes like ( Are you kidding me?) but he answered them in his NYC way. I know people from NYC having lived there, was born in NY and spent my first few years in Tarrytown plus Philly is close. New Yorkers have certain mannerisms and inflections and a stoic presence from city living. Yet, you could see he respected Natslie. I believe that he doesn’t know how she died. There’s been two investigations and Wagner was never tried or found guilty. It’s like any conspiracy story …her death but she had been drinking. She may have fell. I see Catalina daily from my front yard and have been there many times. But his answers were respectful and articulate but the dissonance you see in his eyes…. I think he hated being asked about her especially publicly. That’s what I picked up. He was irritated, restless, uncomfortable… on close exam something is off ( because he hated the questions) but he answered the questions anyway. It wasn’t about Natalie this dissonance. That’s my take..
H.G. is the ultra in identifying the “ what makes them tick”. H.G. ever act? Could you be as believable as Christopher Waken in roles? I know HG is a musician who played in a quartet “of sorts “ and he is a public speaker and entertaining… but an actor? And knowing what makes a person tick is that enough to act? To live in the moment truthfully as they say. Narcissistic and Narcs love acting for the fuel. I don’t see private lives out in the woods walken wanting that or the easy company… married 50 years. But my real question is how can an empath play evil roles so well and believable. He does it over and over again and even is quoted as saying essentially he doesn’t need help doing so. Acting is a craft like writing or painting. Practice makes perfect and Walken has years from age 9 or younger in the field of show business but there are few who can play evil like him. Jack Nicholson in the shining is one. Many others. But if Walken is an empath and his background and interviews suggest he is, how does he get in the mind of sadists , malignant narcs and and psychopaths so well? Does he just get it? How? Does he understand their psyche so well that he can get into their skin? How? His eyes look like a psychopath, his body language, I wonder when there is a break if he just snaps back to himself… And he doesn’t talk about having to recover emotionally although he retreats to the woods to his loving wife…
‘What are your favorite actors/directors of whom we know from HG or whom you’ve identified as narcissists?’
I have many Jordy and it doesn’t make much difference to me what their classification is. I just need them to be believable and seem authentic in their roles.
Knowing that they are narcissists does makes me feel more sympathy for them when they are overlooked for prestigious awards, though, as I know they’d feel wounded, regardless of whether they let that show.
Annaameel: Alfred Hitchcock, James Cameron, Michael Bay my guess narcs.
Hello H.G.,
Is there a difference between Emotional Reasoning and Emotional thinking?
If so could you explain how they differ?
What do you understand emotional reasoning to be?
I differentiate between the application of logic and emotional thinking.
You answered my question.
I was thinking along the lines of the aftermath of a narcissistic relationship. We have been so abused by the narcissist that even after years away from them we still believe we are the awful person they told us we were.
Is that emotional reasoning even though it isn’t logical
since we are no longer in that, or any other relationship.
Or anxiety. The individual has an emotional reason for that feeling but it isn’t logical.
Hi Sonya:
Emotional thinking and reasoning are two different cognitive processes that play a role in how we make decisions and interpret information.
Emotional thinking involves making decisions or judgments based on feelings, intuition, or personal experiences rather than logical reasoning. It is often driven by emotions such as fear, joy, anger, or sadness. When using emotional thinking, people may rely on gut instincts, personal biases, or emotional responses to situations.
On the other hand, reasoning involves using logic, evidence, and critical thinking to make decisions or form judgments. Reasoning is based on evaluating information, considering different perspectives, and drawing conclusions through a logical thought process. It involves analyzing facts, making inferences, and weighing evidence to reach a rational decision.
In summary, emotional thinking is driven by emotions and personal experiences, while reasoning relies on logic, evidence, and critical thinking. Both processes can influence our decision-making, and they often work together to shape our perceptions and actions.
But I wonder could someone be summoned to a situation or person by ET then apply reasoning on engagement?
Would that be so wrong as opposed to using logical thinking and then applying reason? What if logical thinking would cause you to withdraw from a worthy cause?
For example someone falls off a cliff. Logical thinking would be helping them would always have risks whereas ET would say “ help them.” Then reasoning would be… am I able to help? Am I a good enough swimmer? How cold is the water, will zi die in the process. Maybe they will be better off served ifI call paramedics. But I can’t help myself what about people like Harriette Tubman who was inspired by ET and defied logic to create real world change. Those type of matrys are my favorites! They beat the odds, they defied logic, they created real change. Would have anyone logical thought a poor female former Soave could have helped the Underground Railroad freeing 70 slaves and inspiring others or have been a leader for the woman’s suffrage group along with Susan B Anthony who freed 700 slaves? She is famous! They are my hero’s. I can’t touch their hems but I can strive to it.
HG’s terminology is perfect when he uses ET and EL. Emotional thinking gets us in the narc relationship, in the golden period that is all we are doing. The thrill of a new love, an intense love. It isn’t logical thinking and I never thought of applying critical thinking-that would have helped level my emotions in general.
Anyway, then the narc abuse and craziness start. We get gaslit, confused our brain chemistry changes and it erodes all of our logical thinking, actually it eroded all of my thinking, I was to busy trying to survive. I couldn’t reason my way out of that situation. It took a long time to get remotely close to logical thinking.
‘ But I wonder could someone be summoned to a situation or person by ET then apply reasoning on engagement?
Would that be so wrong as opposed to using logical thinking and then applying reason? What if logical thinking would cause you to withdraw from a worthy cause?’
Those two paragraphs blew me away, and they make a lot of sense!
And your use of Harriet Tubman is a perfect example. That woman is a hero. Brave doesn’t come close to describing her.
I would love to have known her.
I think she began on ET, then ER and the. EL. And probably used all of those to do what she did.
I know cognitive function has a lot to do with the equation.
What an interesting conversation.
Thank you!
Hi Annaamel
I was unable to reply underneath your post
annaamel says:
March 2, 2024 at 06:32
Hi Sonya (and NA)
‘I don’t see my Saviour instinct as a weakness or a flaw. I see it as a strength. I’m glad it’s tenacious. I don’t see it as a burden to me or annoying to have, even if it leads to me being persona non grata. As someone with a contagion element as well, if something seems unfair or unbalanced I will also feel it internally, as discomfort. I’m glad there are other people in the world who are moved in this way.’
Thank you for your response, it allowed me to see things differently.
At times I view my Savior instinct as a strength. I believe that I carry it too far when sticking up for someone I feel is being wronged, my emotion of anger kicks in and I rush to protect someone that is perfectly capable of handling their own situation, that response causes a number of problems for the individual and for myself.
I believe the feelings I have are related to my majority Savior instinct but the actions I take are driven by a rage I need to address elsewhere, probably therapy.
That is what I was driving at. Being a majority savior is a positive, I do love that aspect of myself.
Hi Sonya.
I agree the primal warrior should not be let out in everyday situations.
It’s saviour type behaviour without emotional thinking calling all the shots that I think is beneficial. This nearly always involves a delay between a problem identified and intervening.
Also, if opposition to this kind of behaviour is coming from those who’d personally benefit if no one else got involved, it seems even more reason to keep it activated.
My codependency didn’t show up on my ED, even though I know some is in there. But I’m very interested in this school. My mum was codependent on my dad, as was my father’s girlfriend, and both were in simultaneous, long term relationships with him. My father was charismatic and both women, I believe, found it impossible to pull away from him even when they found their relationships were not exclusive. When he’d travel overseas (with my mum – he alternated his companions) his girlfriend, who I got along well with, would call me, almost stricken, telling me how much she missed him, how she was desperately wanting him home.
I felt frustrated at both these women for accepting the relationship. But both justified it with logic. (I’ve noticed that when the heart wants something, a logical explanation will often develop to justify it.)
I see the same on the blog. A defence of choices, which seem very driven by emotions like longing and excitement, using logic. Just like with my dad’s two partners there is an attachment to the logical explanation, a dismissal of any opposing arguments and a reluctance to recognise codependent instincts at work.
Many readers feel a fondness for HG, respect him, admire him, likely fantasise about him, but some readers (or viewers or clients) show highly codependent behaviours towards him. I’ve felt like I’ve been seeing co-d behaviours growing on the blog, as readers set examples which are then picked up by others. An increase in excessive thanking and excessive expressions of respect or devotion or appreciation. HG is a human man who writes books, makes videos and posts and moderates and responds on a blog. Even if he’s provided very valuable assistance, he is not the messiah and to treat him as such is codependency manifesting. These behaviours may be considered as general politeness or maybe even as part of an instinct to drop sugar on a path to reduce the chance of an unpleasant obstacle. But this is codependent behaviour.
Codependent empaths are a big reader group on this blog, as they should be, because it’s a blog that can help them understand themselves, their vulnerabilities and the type of partner who will exploit them. But I don’t like to see codependent behaviour dominating or spreading or seeming like it’s how empaths should or need to behave. Signs of codependency are red flags to people who want to use and exploit others. They should be minimised, not expanded.
Recently on the Q thread a few posters tried to challenge Carole’s attachment to HG and received push back from others. It’s not surprising, but it’s a bit frustrating given the focus of the blog is to lead empaths, particularly those vulnerable to them, away from narcissists and narcissistic relationships. Witch, for instance, tried to highlight a lack of logic in Carole’s stance, was (unsurprisingly) not able to penetrate the fortress which is Carole’s attachment to HG, but then other posters who themselves deal with codependence either completely validated Carole and her feelings while other readers gave Witch a serve for daring to point out flaws in Carole’s argument.
I do apologise for my minimal patience with codependent behaviour (and I expect this apology is likely my own codependency manifesting) but it’s because I grew up in a family where the adult women modelled codependency and rather than see it as valuable or useful, I rejected it wholesale. I saw its flaws. I didn’t see its benefits. My instinct is to pull codependents out of their extreme attachments even though I realise it’s almost impossible.
I love my mum. I loved my dad’s girlfriend. I would’ve loved to see them in different relationships, where their codependency was not triggered. I suspect both of them would have found a reliable relationship a little threatening, and both were drawn to my dad who was charming, exciting and just unreliable enough so that they didn’t feel repelled. Then, once hooked, they were stuck. That’s often how codependence works. The attraction is always to those who are kind of available and kind of not, kind of reliable, kind of not. That’s the magic combination that feels safest and thus most compelling.
It sucks, it really does. It sucks to see codependent workers men and men give up some of themselves to gain another person. Anyway, I recommend all empaths read chained. I saw my mum in there on almost every page.
annaamel, beautifully written.
Human will find a logical argument for every desire, action, and unworthy behavior.
But sooner or later, a person will experience internal dissonance.
Logic is very important, but it is not everything. You can argue with logical arguments endlessly.
I really liked the words Witch and they were relevant. I also understand Carole and I keep my fingers crossed, that she will be able to free herself from her fantasy someday (at the right time). Apparently, she really needs this fantasy now – it’s good that it’s at a distance, it’s a bit safer. Sometimes it’s really the only thing, that keeps us “alive”. In real life, after a month, two month of “relationship with HG” she could be drowning in a sea of tears and disgust (the game of extreme dissonance is their favorite).
You shouldn’t feel sorry, annaamel (as a result of the family situation you described, you are the caregiver, right?). The most important thing is that the perspectives were presented. Everyone will take from it, what they want, when they want. This is each person’s personal task. You can’t do it for someone – even if you are worried about them or would like to help.
People look for support in everything – in TV series, in passions, at work, in a partner, in stimulants. So, why not HG? With HG, as with everything – too much of it/him is unhealthy. A person must remember to maintain relative balance.
So as not to go crazy. Unless you want to be crazy. But then you will be ostracized. You will fall outside the pale of life. Mentally you will die. Every choice has consequences.
Hi Joa, I agree about Witch’s words. And about Carole. She seems like a sweet person.
We empaths run on Emotional Thinking, instead of logic, far too often and too easily when it involves narcs.
Thankyou Joa.
I’ve noticed a change in your posting over the last year. I think your other schools have been coming to the fore. It’s great to see.
I was apologising because I was being something other than nice. It’s a codependent trait to apologise for something like this.
I wasn’t the caregiver. The adults took care of me.
annaamel, let’s just say, that I understood and managed to leave the illusion of the man I loved and was absolutely faithful to for about 16 years of my life. In the last 13 years there has not been the slightest interaction between us.
Indeed, it is no mean feat to have loved a ghost for so many years 🙂
No contact for 13 years won’t help, when he is ingrained in your mind, heart and body. Just thinking about him warms you with a sense of security and causes euphoric happiness. It needs to be cleared him from there first.
If he hadn’t come back after 13 years, I probably would have loved him until I died.
Currently our contact is correct. I’m not blowing up his balloon. There are still warm waves, but I’m careful.
—–
If Carole is reading this, don’t waste your life on pipe dreams like I did. This realization is devastating.
I still haven’t gotten my old self back. I don’t think I’ve ever managed to do that.
Hi Joa.
‘Indeed, it is no mean feat to have loved a ghost for so many years 🙂’
I can imagine.
But thirteen years is better than fourteen years. 💗
—-
I sense that Carole might not see your situation and hers as the same – because your feelings were for an ex partner who’d already let you down. Carole has feelings for someone who has not yet let her down. The damage sometimes has to amass before the truth can override the imagination.
annaamel, that’s even worse. I did it as a teenager.
Annamel,
Responding because I was involved in the conversation with Carole on the Q thread.
I am not Co-dependent, not according to HG’s EDC, not according to any definition I’ve read of it, not according to what I know of myself.
Instead, I have an addiction. I can justify anything to feed my addiction. When I come to understand something is an addiction, I do have the choice within myself to continue to feed it or to step away from it and never look back. The coming to understand it is an addiction is a big part of the process for me, very important.
I have a majority Co-dependent daughter, the behaviors, choices, struggles for her are much different, they are clearly from a Co-dependent place, both within her less healthy relationships and also on her life generally.
I am not writing this to disagree, simply to give you more information about myself with regard to your comment above.
It was not your response I was referring to, AV. I thought your response to Carole was very practical and helpful.
HG is a human man who writes books, makes videos and posts and moderates and responds on a blog. Even if he’s provided very valuable assistance, he is not the messiah and to treat him as such is codependency manifesting.”
Extremely important. I miss not spending every waking hour worrying about HG’s approval, thinking I can’t figure life out without him. I wasn’t like this at first. I was almost healthy (cool vids, good info, but stay wary). What the hell happened? If it wasn’t for sunk cost fallacy, that I’ve spent money, and I can’t get him out of my head, I’d “leave”.
“The attraction is always to those who are kind of available and kind of not, kind of reliable, kind of not. That’s the magic combination that feels safest and thus most compelling. ”
Addiction to HG. He’s here, when he can (and wants to be). Catnip. A dark knight.
Yes, CP – his unreliability is part of the appeal.
I wish I’d stayed distant and not let myself get so attached.
Annaamel, loved reading your thoughts and where they originated from… your background.
Just „a human man“ is engaging with his readership by moderating the comments since 2015, all by himself, no other (busy) human man does that (?). And there is no decrease in quality – you read the archives, you know how good they are, when there was more time for expanded conversations, which have shifted to consultations, as I understand. The quality… he is exceptional, and I can’t see it otherwise… I still can’t wrap my mind around the awareness, the intelligence, the pace, the multifarious nature/ability and the legacy. The ’control-issue’ steered mankind, all this time, but no one of his kind EVER talked about this with such transparency and ’in between your eyes’. It sets so many things apart and changes history. It’s far more profound than just “a human man“ of his kind could have undertaken. My praise cannot dim, especially if I continue to read, listen and recognise.
…And think about how many strings are pulled in all the other spheres. Just a „human man“… ah -ah.
The wonder is legitimate but our psyche types deals (schools, cadres) vary.
Jordy,
Your response just spent (on my format) 12 lines of a 14 line response explaining to me why HG *is* the messiah.
Annaamel, you picked that one. I like.
Back then, before it was alternated into the contrary, one of the Messiah’s teachings was: Do not kneel before anyone, and do not let anyone kneel before you.
Changed to: They Who Kneel Before God Can Stand Before Anyone.
Meaning: Kneel before God i.e. God’s representatives on Earth and make sure anyone kneels before you as the representative’s lieutenant. Create a population of believers of a higher good from above – you shall receive – if you kneel before it/him/her.
If only people back then would’ve been able to hold on to the original teaching and stance, we wouldn’t be needing HG today.
HG is different by design. Yet he points at the roots, and does it in the most accurate and unprecedented manner – when he conveys how the knee bending pattern satisfies but also evokes contempt.
Those who need to see a messiah in him in order to listen to him, may do so if it’s the only way to make them listen. He keeps an appropriate distance anyway. Those who can see his unique value in what he actually represents, will recognise that as well and express their gratitude in how they see fit. Gradually adjusting their understanding, respect and legitimate admiration.
Hi Jordyguin,
I don’t know if you can recall it, but I wrote this reply to you in the middle of last year after we’d been discussing empath schools and cadres:
‘You purchased the ED but haven’t completed it/submitted it? I’m going to give you the annaamel assessment then.
I personally have no doubt you are an empath. I think you’ve got a lot of Super in there – maybe 70% or more. I suspect some CoD and perhaps Contagion making up the rest.
For your cadres I suspect Magnet and maybe Geyser and Carrier.’
I still think you have about 70% Super. I picked that percentage because from the way you comment I think you have more than I do. I still think you have a CoD percentage. I don’t think you have any standard (I believe Standard must represent a majority if it’s present, according to the video on it).
Since the time of this post, have you received your results back for the ED? I am not asking you to share them, I am just curious if you know if HG has identified your empath schools and cadres?
Annaamel, hi! I had to think about how to respond to your question…
No, I have not submitted my ED. Rolldrum 🥁🥁 I don’t think that I would come out as an empath. You must be sick by now reading it. lol. Overall I don’t think that I’m N, but there is always a possibility. I must accept the possibility in order to send ED in, but I can’t accept the possibility, though I’m oh so super flexible. You see what I mean. Narcs are inflexible when it comes to giving up control of their “image” of themselves. OR maybe “I must be the perfect empath and if I fail – I’m nothing” — see, there again. A correlation of empath and narcissist.
And even if the sweetest Candied would gently slap-slap me back and tell me “you’re an empath” I wouldn’t be certain. I’m certain about others, lol. But not myself.
*humor: Me and Candied could dress up as narcs and play a little, in order to see that it’s not that bad at all, cause you would still like us😇😇
I certainly don’t abuse people and don’t need fuel (?so I think?), but I also know that I’m very fluid. I grew up in a theatre environment (fantasy world) and learned from many narcissists (empaths, n-tics, normals of course as well), plus my own drama school education I went through and on top of that my experiments in the alternating perception area (!no shrooms or substances! only breathing techniques, mental practices, body movements), since I had a predisposition for the ’out of the ordinary’ since childhood. I had become very flexible or maybe I was from the beginning and simply stepped in it consciously. For me it ‘depends‘ and I can’t give it a final ending. Do you remember when you wrote that you don’t feel you belonged in the contagion category, this is how I feel on a whole scale about any label or categorisation of me and again it can appear to be the grandiosity of a narcissist or very high narc traits. Or is it because I was trained to become aware of myself through acting and self-aware-practices or because labels don’t tell you who you really are or not what you want to hear?
In drama school we had to learn to control our emotions and shoot them out on command. I was good at it but I don’t think that I have learned through their techniques. I found them rather slowing me down, and I had my own, which I would describe as commands, with connection to just emotion, much simpler. Our principle was a Greater, as I know now. He once said „I love to see you suffer. It’s the best part“ (drama, tears). He also said to me „You have ‘the eye‘ of the director, you must lose it when you act.“ What did he see? It is true, I observe multiple things and could be in-and-out. Touched and untouched. I enjoyed being on stage and feeling the audience as they became still and would follow where I would lead them… Guess why I couldn’t pursue an acting career – I couldn’t kiss a scene partner. It went against every fiber in me, when it obviously came to this part of realisation of what actors MUST do. Other than that, it’s rubik’s cube, adjust to whatever presents itself…. Except nature – it’s the most beautiful thing in life I truly belong to, where I let go of everything.
Annaamel, just wanted to let you know that I replied to your question, but it’s either still in moderation or went into the aether. But I wanted to thank you for your assessment and that you took interest in doing it. I found the observations in this thread very interesting to read and to think about. And I also noted a shift, as mentioned, but also in you. I cannot pinpoint it exactly but there is something distinct, refined, settled what came in to place✧
Hi Jordy,
It does surprise me that you have not done your ED. Have you looked at it, filled out some of the questions?
I found getting the result a calming experience because it meant I could stop wondering or worrying about where I might fit on this spectrum of empathy. I had considered that I might be a narcissist and I was prepared to accept this possibility. I don’t think narcissists are the devil. If it turned out I was one, I would work with that information and try to use the knowledge to guide me.
I don’t think you are a narcissist. I am as confident with you as I was with CP, and that was about 150%. I don’t think you are a normal either.
I’ll stick with my original prediction: Super and a bit of Co-D. It’s harder for me to predict Contagion in people because while I do feel I belong in that category, I don’t relate to the way Contagion is discussed on the blog.
The information in your post about your theatre background, being uncomfortable kissing your scene partners and being told that one time you had the ‘eye of the director’ makes me even more confident about you being an empath. (I interpret that eye comment as you being a bit too aware of the director watching you and needing to forget it – I may be wrong). I think a narcissist would kiss anyone and a normal person would not be as aware of others around them.
If you like to have control, you need to do your ED. Not knowing might feel like control but knowing for sure will put the reins in your hands. I encourage you to put it in and see what happens.
Hi Annaamel. Thank you, I appreciate your reply and insight.
Because the topic itself is so interesting my (unknown) status is not getting in the way so far. Not wanting to accept the possibility is not a source of anxiety. It’s mere observation, for now.
„…narcissist would kiss anyone…“
The cerebral N wouldn’t. HG spoke about cerebrals who would vomit as a response of intimate body parts meeting each other. And withdrawing from kissing is control too.
Kissing is part of an intimate process which connects to truth. If you don’t feel truthful towards the person but use the intimate kiss, you either must develop a “blind eye” towards your true feelings and use projection techniques for the greater good of storytelling, or you don’t mind and it doesn’t bother you, or you truthfully want and enjoy intimately kissing the people you are presented to act with.
Re: losing ’the eye’ of the director.
“I interpret that eye comment as you being a bit too aware of the director watching you and needing to forget it“
It’s rather a different thing and actually the other way around – you should not forget, you should connect with the observer. As an actor you love being watched. Growing up around stage milieu it becomes your second nature, you’re perfectly adapted to. You should be aware and connect with the observer, feeling the observer, it’s the best part. Beginners may be taught to forget that they are being watched in order for them to get used to becoming vulnerable in front of an audience.
Had an opportunity once to ask Tom the Cruiser what the most important attribute of an actor must be? TC: You must be able to watch yourself through the eyes of others.
That’s about control, isn’t it? About facade management.
„You have ‘the eye‘ of the director, you must lose it when you act.“ It has to do with control, as I came to understand it now.
Our principal (Greater) would let me do anything, sit back and just watch, saying „Keep going and don’t stop. Give me all your variations, I want to watch forever.“
Acting teacher (Upper Mid-Range) would want to control every single aspect of the development of my character and everything I had to say in general. He had cold fury attacks each time he had to deal with me. His suggestions were just primitive, in my opinion (when it came to my characters and in general). He gave good guidance to other students who had little to give on their own or didn’t challenge his control.
Acting teacher (Empath) and her method; „Oh let it hit you, let it get to you.“ I would think, gosh you’re so naive, I just don’t want to spend my energy on crying every day, because that is what you associate with it; the character we’re working on is a self-pity absorbed boring victim and that’s about it, not that deep really. So I would ’let it hit me’ give her what she wanted, she would cry as a response, which is a confirmation for her and then I would skip school, rehearsal time with her, and turn up only for the final block, general rehearsal.
The hint to lose ’the eye’ of the director is about; as an actor you must hand the control to the actual director, no matter how stupid you may find his/her decisions for your character. You’re a tool for the director, an object. If you both click there is no problem and the outcome is great, if not, you must zip it and do as the director requires. This is what empaths can do. Endure, no matter how nonsensical.
Narcissists are there for the limelight, fuel, prime aims. From intelligent to not so much. They negotiate through the assertions of control and get their way anyway.
Jordy–
I read your response here: https://narcsite.com/2022/05/11/59990/comment-page-1/#comment-453455 I found it very interesting.
1. Why do you think you won’t be an empath? Would it be so bad to be a normal?
2. Do you have a certain value attached to being an empath at this point?
3. Is there an internal value you have given cadres that you identify with?
4. Have you looked over the questions?
5. Is it completed?
HG says that empaths often worry that they aren’t empaths. I think the fact that you’re concerned is a good sign that you are, but I understand taking a long time to fill out the ED.
Hi Dani-chan😽 (1) I may just not come out as one, that’s it. Would it be so bad to be a normal? I have no idea. The ED-result would just say „not an empath“. Normal, narcissistic, narcissist – would it be so bad to be one of those?
(2,3)The value of the empath as a whole is very high in terms of; they care about and manifest various important aspects which I deem immensely valuable. Cadres – they are all even and important.
Now you Dani! Contagion came out as a significant percentage in your ED-result? I think it did.✧
Jordy–
I think you are an empath. Perhaps a full split of everything! Very rare!! Just as special as you are, Jordy!
I’m sure that HG knows what kind already…he probably is strutting around and congratulating himself on his most excellent collection of tertiary online empaths. *HG looks at various narc NISSs from his personal and non-HG professional world and thinks* You could never manage all the empaths who have pledged their undying love and devotion to me. Ash Tudor durbatulûk, ash Tudor gimbatul, ash Tudor thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
In honor of HG’s releasing videos in German…I shall respond below auf Deutsch!
Ich kann dir nicht antworten. Ich respektiere die Regeln von Herr Tudor.
Rare? No, that’s just my poor English skills, Daniiiii…
Danke Dir vielmals!!!😚💕
*Ash Tudor durbatulûk…*
Oh! Don’t get me started on that one!!
I have a theory:
Barad-dûr will collapse from within… Ash Tudor wouldn’t have placed his immortality at the hands of those who wouldn’t prevail. An unusual Ring of Power dynamic, indeed…
Jordy–
Mr. Tudor will not lose. The empaths will fuel him. The empaths will provide character traits and residual benefits. The empaths have let him take control. We will treat him well.
Victoria aut Mort
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO4NOiSBITg?si=YmaYdwHFy8YxeLSZ&w=560&h=315%5D
I was somewhat involved in the Carol thread. I initially pointed out the flaws of her emotional thinking and then apologized after reading others responses stating we should allow people to express how they are feeling. I vacillated because understand that side of things too.
I found that conversation disturbing because there was a distinct codependent element. Obviously HG has spent time helping her, as he has with many others, it seemed to me she was relying on him in an unhealthy way. We do need to be supportive of one another, that includes pointing out flawed thinking. It’s not a criticism directed at the person but at their flawed emotional thinking and attachments.
I appreciate and agree with what you said and you weren’t being rude so no need to apologize. As an empath I need help navigating life and if I’m saying things that others find unhealthy I would hope someone would redirect me.
Thank you for being the up co-dependency and enabling that is showing up on the blog.
Sonya, I thought your instinctive response was appropriate in that thread. I recognise, too, that the challenges you received would have felt uncomfortable. I understand why you felt some pressure to acknowledge both sides.
Anna,
Thank you for your comment,It pointed out things I am trying hard to overcome.
I allowed myself to feel uncomfortable and I allowed myself to feel pressure. I am working on trusting my instinctive thoughts and not allowing myself to feel pressured into deviating from it.
Removing the people pleasing part of my personality is difficult but a trait I must overcome.
Thank you so much for helping me see that.
“They may see that I am a narcissist they need to avoid.”
I feel your concern, about possibly being a narcissist. I understand, and have witnessed, that this is something empaths often fear. As we have narcissistic traits it can be difficult to accept those aspects of the beasts in our lives and the world as existing within ourselves also. But if HG says you’re an empath, that’s it. You can stand firm on his analysis. When I’m feeling the need to wonder about myself, usually after I’ve lost my temper, I pull out those results and review them, along with his other materials.
I can also recommend HG’s video on spotting the narcissist instantly. I won’t spoil the punchline if you haven’t seen it, but he goes into great detail about why snapshots of behavior are only indicators. It’s about the long-term and the reasons behind the behaviors. Having the conversation a bit removed from considering myself onto whether an empath can develop instant narcvision helped make things a clearer about why his ED of me was perfectly accurate.
“I received my ED and am very much questioning the outcome. The more I lear about the narcissist the more I think I am one!”
I want to tell you not to worry but I know you will! However, I’ll tell you anyway–don’t worry. HG is the expert on this. If you can’t believe me or yourself, trust his analysis. Hope you are well.
Hi AA,
Empaths generally use emotional thinking or flawed logic. If we were thinking logically, we would see the red flags and not interact. But our addiction causes emotional thinking and flawed logic.
I also believe we have to get to truth and see it on our own. We have to be the ones that shatters our own rose colored glasses. It’s the only way we can truly see it.
There are several empaths on the blog that are CoDs and haven’t achieved awareness. It can happen. Sometimes it just takes time.
Hi Leigh, I love this comment.
I’m glad you liked it, AV!
Important correction:
There are several empaths on the blog that are CoD and HAVE achieved awareness.
Probably both are true…:)
Hi Leigh.
Thankyou for your comment.
Can I ask what you mean in here:
‘There are several empaths on the blog that are CoDs and haven’t achieved awareness.’
What have they not become aware of yet, in your opinion?
Hi AA,
I made an error in my original comment. I meant to say that there are CoDs on the blog that HAVE gained awareness. The awareness I’m speaking of is their co-dependency and their addiction to narcissists. With that awareness, they can learn to recognize their CoD traits when they’re happening and stop themselves from interacting with the narcissist. With awareness, they can break the cycle but sometimes it takes time.
It’s hard for me to identify aware codependents because they are in such strong control of their codependent instincts that evidence of this trait hardly shows up on the blog. It’s also hard for me to see how past posters have made changes because I read old blog comments out of the order they were posted in. But for the time I have been on this blog, which is coming up on two years, I have noticed codependent-style posting reducing for some readers. I definitely put this down to growing awareness and self awareness.
I’ve seen a change in posting by Joa, as I already mentioned. I think her personal circumstances coupled with her greater understanding about narcissism and codependence has helped her see her old relationship in a much clearer way, and she’s been able to install emotional boundaries where before it was difficult. It’s been really encouraging to see this change.
While Asp Emp has not shared her schools and so not identified herself as having a percentage of codependence, so I’m only speculating, I’ve seen a noticeable change in her posting style over the last year. I think her posting has changed significantly, and this change commenced after she obtained her ED results, so my belief is she has put the information gained in the ED together with the knowledge she’s built from reading information, listening to videos and consulting with HG and is now much more aware and in control overall. It’s also been really encouraging to see this shift and I’m really pleased for her because I think she might be feeling stronger too.
There are other posters who i either know or believe have codependence who I have not seen much change in. Their posting showed codependence when I first read them and still do. The codependence is for various people (some in the readers’ personal life) but generally it’s towards HG. They have had access to the resources (ED, articles, videos, books, consultations) but their codependence is still dominating their perspective and their self awareness is hampered as a result.
The final group is the one where readers’ codependent posting has increased the longer they’ve been on the blog. This is always towards HG. As CP put it (she’s in this group but has a strong awareness of what’s changing) when she joined she was ‘almost healthy’ and wasn’t thinking about HG all the time or wondering what he thought of her. Intentionally or unintentionally, HG triggers (and even sometimes encourages) codependent behaviour in his responses on the blog, even if, in his material, he educates about it and recommends readers try to combat and challenge it. There is a narcissist/codependent dynamic at play on the blog all the time. The help HG provides definitely outweighs this dynamic overall, and AV’s posts about H.G. helping her see what’s real highlights that in consultations HG is professional and responsible and provides solid, valuable direction.
It’s been hard to watch readers become more and more supplicant and less and less objective and analytical in their posting. The analysis becomes limited to detailing why H.G. is so amazing. The challenging of ideas becomes challenging any ideas which question H.G. or question loyalty to HG.
I think there *is* a path to relative freedom from codependence, involving increased awareness overall, increased self awareness and self control. The first step is getting an assessment, such as the ED, which will identify the codependent element. Then understanding what codependency is, how it manifests, what its drawbacks are (including the encouragement it gives others to administer mistreatment). Resources like Chained provides a lot of this information, as do articles and videos H.G. has produced. There is also information more generally on codependence available on the internet. The last step, the self awareness, and recognising personal codependent behaviour and thinking, is probably the hardest part. Codependence, it seems to me, carries something a bit similar to narcissism, which is a difficultly seeing something from outside the personal perspective. It’s like there is a protective wall up, and that wall blocks out ideas that challenge the thoughts that are most comfortable. A narcissist blocks out thoughts that are self critical. A codependent blocks out thoughts that say ‘this behaviour is problematic’ or thoughts that say ‘you should not give so much to that other person.’
I agree with the comments that say people have to want to change or respect the person giving them suggestions. Or something has significant has to penetrate the defences that are in place that help that person feel safe. It may be that I can only watch from the sidelines and *hope* (that stance which is powerless and non active) that those with codependency can find a way to move beyond it.
AA,
I think you misunderstood my comment. The point I was trying to make is that CoD’s, and anyone else for that matter, will see the truth when and if they’re ready to see the truth. You can’t push someone to see the truth.
My other point was that with awareness it absolutely can be done. I’m glad you brought up Joa because she’s one I was thinking about. There are others as well. They have become fiercely independent even with their codependency. I think that’s extremely admirable.
Others will get there on their own time when they’re ready. In the meantime, they shouldn’t be shamed for not getting there quick enough.
Just for the record, I have no CoD.
annaamel, I came here, when N2 came back after 13 years (electronically) and I had to go back to thats time to finish it even more precisely.
I knew exactly, why I was getting into it. I even wrote here, that I had no doubt that I would be able to cope (I had previously coped in much worse conditions), but the blog worked like a steroid – it made the action and navigation faster and easier.
I didn’t learn anything new, but I looked at it more closely and discovered new pages and shades, so I arranged it a bit differently. Now there is more order and transparency.
—-
My problem wasn’t N2. My problem was the illusion, with N2 as the object.
When I pumped the illusion, it was necessary. I was afraid of being alone, but I didn’t want to waste time looking for a man, I was afraid of failure if I did it too quickly (from the rain to the gutter). During this time, I had to take care of my newborn and work to support us. This time was supposed to be for her, not me. I didn’t want a stepfather for my daughter – I had bad experiences with mine. I knew, what type of men I was attracted to. It would be mean and selfish if I did that to her.
My life is normal and ordinary. The illusion was in this one area. It was a conscious decision. The illusion was my support, my secret, my beautiful place where I could hide, always walking through life ALONE.
When you have this kind of safe illusion, you know it very well. You see the real reality.
It’s very strange, but N2 appeared just when I was starting to reject hes illusion. When I realized, that I didn’t need him anymore and I started looking around curiously.
We quickly pumped up the giant 🙂
Our contact will end soon. There will be a rapid, sharp devaluation and he will stop paying money for his daughter.
My sense of injustice was soothed and my emotional matters with him have been settled. Frustration disappeared. I don’t want anything from him anymore. I won’t demand anything.
—-
Isn’t HG also an illusion for each of us? Doesn’t it allow you to rest, feel safe, feel better? Move to a slightly literary, fairy-tale world?
Help an ultra-giant together? 🙂
Our common illusion, although different from every side.
It’s no different.
—–
A very dangerous situation is when the illusion becomes real.
Currently, I try not to pump up illusions, although I have this tendency and desire. Now the place next to the ruins seems safer to me. Although barren and not up to my imagination. Pity.
—–
We also need to distinguish two things. Just because I have highly codependent tendencies doesn’t mean I’m codependent in real life. Rarely anyone in my environment is as independent and self-reliant as me.
Or maybe that’s why. In spite of my own weakness.
I still haven’t read “Chained” or anything by HG, except “Three That Got Away” and 8 parts of short stories about events in HG life.
This book, “Chained”, burned my brain when I started reading it, especially the mentions of sister HG. Then, I postponed reading until later. Now, I think that reading this book would create unnecessary emotions and bonds in me.
And most likely I deleted this file 🙂
Apparently it was supposed to be like that.
I forgot to write that loyalty to N2, as my daughter’s father and genes donor, also played a very important role. I believed it was my duty to my daughter.
Plus environmental factors. I wanted to be taken seriously, not like a woman jumping between men.
annaamel
Re: Feb 23 @ 23:59
I have learned in my time here of another group – those who do not want help or change, but only to participate. Unfathomable for some, especially those with Saviour, whose tenacity in their stance to effect change can sometimes equal that of the Co-d’s perceived entrenchment.
Hello Joa. The book Chained is not about people. It’s about behaviours. It explains how these behaviours are disadvantageous.
‘Isn’t HG also an illusion for each of us? Doesn’t it allow you to rest, feel safe, feel better? Move to a slightly literary, fairy-tale world?’
For me, no. I use the material here to help me see the real world more clearly. I see no benefit to using him as an illusion to help me feel safe. For me, feeling less confused about things helps me feel safe. If HG provides an explanation for me that makes something I found confusing less so, I feel safer overall.
‘We also need to distinguish two things. Just because I have highly codependent tendencies doesn’t mean I’m codependent in real life. Rarely anyone in my environment is as independent and self-reliant as me.’
Of course. I see that you are very independent and strong in many areas of your life. But the ED picked up your codependence so presumably you answered a few questions in a way that pointed to codependence, even if they were all related to the way you have engaged in your intimate relationships.
‘My problem wasn’t N2. My problem was the illusion, with N2 as the object.’
I understand. This is why it was yours to control.
Hello Leigh.
Thank you for clarifying what you intended with your comment.
I’m glad we have both seen a change in Joa. You’ve been here longer than I have so no doubt would be able to identify other posters in this group.
You are a bit like me, in that we want to fix the problems we see. But we see different problems and we see different solutions. You see me shaming readers and making them feel bad. I understand that. And that is the problem you want to fix when you comment in this thread. I see a different problem, and that’s why I made my initial post in the thread.
——-
Hi NA
As I’m only talking about codependent empaths in this thread, is the group you’re referring to codependent empaths who have no interest in completing an assessment, learning about codependency or becoming more self aware or in control of their responses?
‘Unfathomable for some, especially those with Saviour, whose tenacity in their stance to effect change can sometimes equal that of the Co-d’s perceived entrenchment.’
I don’t find it unfathomable. But I cannot think of any codependent readers (who have indicated they have that school or who’ve shown indicators that they might have this school) on the blog who only participate and show no curiosity. They all seem like very curious and interested people who want to better understand themselves and the people and world around them. They enjoy participating but they don’t appear to me to be purely here to participate.
AA,
I know you mean well and want to help. The point I was trying to make is that you can’t reach people if they feel like their choices and decisions are being judged or criticized. They will turn a deaf ear.
As for Joa, right from the beginning I saw her as a fierce, independent woman and mother.
Hey Leigh.
Thank-you for acknowledging I mean well. I am not trying to change the minds of people who have extremely strong feelings about HG or anyone else – I don’t anticipate being able to do so.
A concern I had when I wrote my original post was about behaviours on the blog that I consider to be co-dependent (rather than empathic) gradually being adopted by more readers.
It seems to be driven by a belief that HG will be more generous and be here more often and moderate more posts and answer more questions if readers are more respectful, more grateful, more effusive, more thankful etc. This is a co-dependent approach to remedy problems that are identified or predicted.
Without realising it was happening, I have become codependent in some of my relationships in the past (gradually accepting less and asking for less in the relationship in response to problems I have perceived) and I’ve seen my mother be codependent in her relationship. I expect her behaviour had an influence on my understanding of how to behave in relationships. When my dad was being less than warm or supportive, she increased her pleasing behaviours. This was what she thought she needed to do to get an improvement. When there is a problem in the relationship the codependent response is to make fewer demands and to increase the amount of ‘good’ they are providing because they believe this will ward off abandonment or neglect on the part of the other party.
But it does not work. It unfortunately causes the other party to feel more disdain for the codependent person (whether it’s shown or not). I believe my dad respected my mother’s tenacity (how could someone not) but I don’t think he respected her as a person. And he could not love her because he could not respect her. This is why codependent behaviour is ultimately self-defeating. It does not get what is wanted: love and acceptance. It only gets an illusion of this.
Hi AA,
Yes, the more you shatter your rose colored glasses, the more you will see patterns that you didn’t see before. Many of us have experienced the people in our lives managing down our expectations. We’ve been taught to accept less and give more. Its not just the CoD that experiences that though. All empaths do.
I agree that CoDs will take on more of the burden, make fewer demands and increase their pleasing behaviors. I also agree that CoDs may have a tougher time seeing the manipulative behaviors. But its not just CoDs that have difficulty seeing the behaviors. All empaths do because we still have to worry about the addiction to the narcissist as well. The addiction is very real. It will give us excuses to interact with the narcissist.
I’m sorry your mother went through that with your father. I’m sorry that your father’s girlfriend leaned on you when he would disappear from her life. Those things undoubtedly shaped the person you are today.
@Leigh,
Great comment, re all empaths and the addiction. You probably recall that it has been discussed on the blog that all empaths may have the capacity to display some CoD element or behaviors but don’t qualify as CoD’s on HG’s EDC. I don’t remember what the outcome of that discussion was but it makes a little sense to me. You listed some things that those without CoD proper probably would not do, as an actual CoD per HG would. Interesting to consider for sure.
Thank you, AV.
Hi Leigh.
‘Many of us have experienced the people in our lives managing down our expectations. We’ve been taught to accept less and give more.’
I agree it’s a common story on the blog and have read many readers’ experiences with this. The lessons learnt were in childhood but bad relationships continually educate about what is acceptable, pushing down expectations year after year. But those lessons are misleading and untrue.
‘Its not just the CoD that experiences that though. All empaths do.’
I agree that empaths are susceptible. But the factors I think that matter most are insecurity, low self worth and gravitating to the wrong people based on superficial rather than intrinsic good qualities. Attraction to narcissists would be related to these factors. There are empaths on the blog who are not in relationships with narcissists and who indicate they are in healthy and rewarding relationships. The book Chained is not about empaths in general. It is about codependency.
‘I agree that CoDs will take on more of the burden, make fewer demands and increase their pleasing behaviors. I also agree that CoDs may have a tougher time seeing the manipulative behaviors.’
To me, this is the issue. Having a harder time seeing manipulative behaviours. Taking on more of the burden. Making fewer demands. Increasing pleasing behaviours.
‘But its not just CoDs that have difficulty seeing the behaviors. All empaths do because we still have to worry about the addiction to the narcissist as well.’
If there are empaths who are on the blog who are in healthy relationships, (often with other empaths – but most importantly, not with narcissists) it suggests that this is something empaths can manage and resist.
‘The addiction is very real. It will give us excuses to interact with the narcissist.’
What concerns me is when people are not aware they are relying on excuses. They believe they have logical explanations. I agree it occurs with non co-dependent empaths as well.
‘I’m sorry your mother went through that with your father. I’m sorry that your father’s girlfriend leaned on you when he would disappear from her life.’
Thankyou Leigh. I mentioned it not to show the burden placed on me, but to illustrate the codependent behaviour they displayed.
‘Those things undoubtedly shaped the person you are today.’
They definitely made me more independent, because their example was unappealing to me. The relationships I mentioned earlier were not long lasting and they were a good lesson for me about my tendency to fall into patterns I had seen modeled. I also learnt about issues with my self worth, about my insecurities and its triggers and my partner selection.
I know you feel protective about empaths on the blog. I understand you want to take the focus off codependence because you are aware that it might be making some readers feel targeted. I will clarify that it is codependent *behaviour* I don’t like. I see the behaviour as separate from the person. There are readers on the blog who I see codependent behaviour from that I think are great people with lots of amazing qualities. Both my mum and my dad’s girlfriend were great people with lots of amazing qualities.
Hi AA,
I suppose it does seem like I’m trying to be protective of the empaths on the blog. That’s really not my place though or what I was trying to do.
I was actually just trying to say that it can take people all different time frames to see the truth and it’s best that they learn the truth on there own. If they’re not ready to see it, it doesn’t matter how much someone tries to show them, they still won’t see it.
Annaamel
Re: Comment Feb 25 12:20
The group I referred to includes Co-d’s as per your discussion, but is not specific to them.
I didn’t say they have no interest in completing assessments, learning about codependency (or whichever cadre they may be in), or becoming self-aware or in control of their responses.
There are some here for all of those reasons, but I also see those who I believe are here for reasons that have nothing to do with accepting help or actioning change.
In your comment Feb 14 @ 2:27 (regarding the elements of codependency you see on the blog) you state:
“It’s a bit frustrating given the focus of the blog is to lead empaths, particularly those vulnerable to them, away from narcissists and narcissistic relationships.
I identify this as classic Saviour tendency in the same way that you identify “excessive thanking and excessive expressions of respect or devotion or appreciation” as co-d behaviour.
I shared your view initially and I should have used “may be hard to accept” rather than “unfathomable” regarding (most especially) those with a Saviour element, (although unfathomable would have been accurate to my feeling at the time). Over my time here, I have come to realize that the actual focus of the blog is in the title “Knowing the Narcissist”. It is in studying THAT subject matter that people who choose to apply what they’ve learned here CAN achieve freedom, while the situation of others will remain unchanged from their participation however much we want it for them. HG teaches about narcissism and commenters deposit their opinions and experiences. People take what they want or need. That is the exchange.
HG has previously confirmed that the blog was not intended as a support forum, but being empaths, many of us have also mistakenly identified “the focus of the blog to lead empaths, particularly those vulnerable to them, away from narcissists and narcissistic relationships”. In doing so, and paired with additional information supplied by HG about the different kinds of empaths and their traits for use in our OWN situations, I feel we may be unintentionally taking advantage of his allowance of discussion (thus far) to shift the original focus of the blog from “Knowing the Narcissist” to attain freedom, to one of befriending, saving, and talking about empaths traits ad nauseam.
How long that shift in focus (and the time required to moderate) will be tolerated here as opposed to the less cumbersome YouTube (shorter comments -less moderation) has been of concern to me for some time because I value this space as important to so many, but perhaps I am mistaken and it is simply that my pesky Saviour component has been activated unnecessarily.
That is likely the case.
Time will tell.
Your analysis in your final two paragraphs NA is accurate.
Hello NA.
I want to reply to your comment and will do so but can I ask you to clarify this part please?
‘I value this space as important to so many’
What does this blog give to people that’s very important, in your opinion?
Hi NA,
I am a majority Saviour and I hate it! What I have done through my life is try to save people from who I feel have fallen victim to someone else’s treatment, or a person talking about badly about a good friend of mine, or criticizing my husband. I have lost relationships because of my fierce desire to defend people that are capable of defending themselves.
I can get so enraged I can barely function.
I become irrational and sometimes scream at the person I view as the “attacker”
I do not see myself a a saviour, I think I am a narcissist.
I can act just like one.
I don’t put up with my dad’s narcissistic button pushing, but by becoming frustrated I become very argumentative and see that all I’m doing is giving him fuel.
I am married to an empath now, but my temper is out of control. I received my ED and am very much questioning the outcome. The more I lear about the narcissist the more I think I am one!
I am so grateful for H.G. and what I am learning I have forwarded his teachings to many people.
They may see that I am a narcissist they need to avoid.
@Sonya,
I hope it’s okay for me to step into your conversation with NA. I am also majority savior and I agree, it can be frustrating at times. What you’re experiencing, with the anger and efforts to defend others may be starting with the savior and then carried along by other aspects of your empathic makeup. For example, if you’re high in Geyser or CoD, I could see this happening. I have a small amount of Geyser, which will cause me to react if the circumstances are just right, but it is not my first go to.
Another piece I wanted to speak to is that for all empaths, when our empathy is eroded, either because we live with a narc and have to spend lots of time dealing with their narcissism, or if we’re tired, hungry, lonely etc, we may tend to lash out more often and more easily.
The fact that you are questioning if you’re a narcissist means you are not one, even with your lashing out behaviors. Narcissists would not think they are one, they may say they won’t, but they are not really wondering. They do not do such soul searching, it is everyone else, in their minds, that needs to do this, they are perfect.
I was concerned about this for some time and even a while after I received my EDC. But over time the differences between narcs and non-narcs, including myself, was evident and I could leave that idea behind. We ’empaths are not saints’, as HG has said, but we are not narcissists either. Hope something I’ve written helps you feel better.
Hi NA,
If I may offer my view on supportive comments. Mr. Tudor has said on numerous occasions that he always uses logic and everything he does serves his purposes. Just based on that, when he posts supportive comments wouldn’t that means that he has a logical reason and it somehow serves his purposes?
Annaamel
Re: Feb 29 8:15
What the blog gives people that is very important (to me).
The blog provides access to the most accurate and comprehensive information on narcissists and the various entanglements with them, (intimate, familial, workplace….) in a format that allows the depth and pace of learning up to the individual through their choices in an extensive catalog of articles/products and without distraction (the voice) for those who prefer to digest their information/ learning through the written articles.
Confirmation through the shared experiences of the commenters that one is not “crazy” or alone. This is important in gaining answers and in providing relief to allow for continued learning (where desired).
Perhaps more importantly, confirmation from Narcissist and Psychopath HG Tudor himself that one is not “crazy” or alone. Validation that your experience was a perpetrated campaign (through the narcissism) against you and not something you invited or deserved.
Realization through the framework provided, that there are schools and cadres involved for both narcissist and non-narcissists that explains why the experiences shared can differ vastly. The information on empaths intended to help you see what traits may be used against you so you can develop better defence.
Confirmation from commenters as to the effectiveness of the products offered through the Knowledge Vault, Consultations, etc. What helped and how it impacted (but not the content due to confidentiality) is most valuable coming from the end user and can help a newcomer navigate their best route through the information.
The opportunity for those denied a voice for so long to “voice” their experience. To “see” it and have it be seen. To “release” it outside of themselves perhaps for the first time.
A place for those who have gained freedom/understanding previously, but for whom ET has gained a foothold and they seek “rehab” in a safe and familiar place.
Those are some of the things I place importance on. I realize there is an exhaustive list of other benefits and not everyone will agree with my ranking of importance, but you asked for mine.
Additionally, (and not directly but somewhat tied to the ongoing discussion).
I’ve learned that addiction and ET will collude to have people resist information they don’t like, or to accept it from people they DO like (and in a way they prefer it worded) despite it being the same message (which is evidence of elevated ET) in order to keep them ensnared. I’ve also learned Saviours can kick back. The streak can be mostly satisfied by simply leading those looking for information and answers here to the site and to HG, his articles and products. Let him do all the heavy lifting.
Based on past experience, there will be those who will see this as kissing HG’s ass or being his lieutenant. To that I will say this:
I value this space for the reasons above and many more, but they have all been to do with positives for non-narcissists. My priority in wanting this place to continue is first and foremost that I want others to achieve the answers and education I have been afforded here. Any collateral benefit to HG is just that- secondary, just as our gains are a collateral benefit to him in achieving his goals. but not his focus. This place is an opportunity to USE THE NARCISSIST to our benefit. Seize it!
We learn through the work here that narcissists do not like the spotlight to be off of them for very long and that they get bored easily. Add to that the coffee club atmosphere it has become and the moderating of our copious monologues (yes, I see the irony in my last 2 posts) on how interesting we think are (traits) , what we like (crystals, dreams, who we like, HEY GIRL! …These are things that I see here increasingly and that I think threaten the blogs continued existence due to a narcissist’s lack of interest and other more important matters to be about. HG can shift to another format but we (and those yet to come) stand to lose considerably more. My feeling is that we can be more proactive in self regulating to help achieve a balance and maintain this beneficial place.
Or not. We can keep gum flapping and roll the dice.
You ought to take notice of what NA has written.
Mr. Tudor,
I do take notice of what NA has written and I do agree with most of it.
My comment to NA was specific to supportive comments, not all the coffee klatching on the blog. I’m not a fan of that either and don’t normally engage in those conversations. From the very beginning of the blog, you’ve allowed bloggers to support one another. So I assumed supportive comments were ok and even welcomed. I also assumed it served a purpose for you.
I know this forum was not created for coffee klatches and I agree that its happening more and more often now. I also know that this blog is to learn about narcissism & the narcissistic dynamic.
I have no problem with readers being supportive to one another, that is in the nature of most readers and after all, I am not going to do it. Creating a safe and supportive environment adds to the strength of this place. There is never an issue with people offering their support to one another. I also allow somewhat off topic discussions (up to a point) as I also recognise that this feeds into the creation of the blog environment, but it is necessary to “trim” such discussions because they will ultimately deviate from the purpose of the blog and impact on moderation. I understand people like to have fun also and joke with one another and that often leads to an off topic exchange and again it is about exercising common sense with regard to the extent of such discussions otherwise I will draw it to a conclusion. Where I do so, nobody should regard that as being “told off” it is simply a statement that the particular topic has come to an end. If you will, it is like the teacher telling you play time is over and it is back to class.
The way to look at it is you can make your observations but if it is not about narcissism and its connected topics, look to keep it short.
Understood.
Thank you very much for that clarification, Mr. Tudor.
Eloquently and accurately stated NA. Thank you.
Hi Sonya (and NA)
I don’t see my Saviour instinct as a weakness or a flaw. I see it as a strength. I’m glad it’s tenacious. I don’t see it as a burden to me or annoying to have, even if it leads to me being persona non grata. As someone with a contagion element as well, if something seems unfair or unbalanced I will also feel it internally, as discomfort. I’m glad there are other people in the world who are moved in this way.
NA,
It was enlightening to read your comment and explanation of the reasons. I largely agree with them.
When posting on this blog, I probably try to keep two things in mind. The first is: ‘is this an important enough comment that it’s worth the time and energy it will add to moderating on a blog about narcissism (and their victims)?’ My judgement won’t match others’ all the time and sometimes my selfishness might win out and I’ll comment regardless, but I try to adhere to the principle of ‘make sure it matters.’ Solo moderation of a blog (which often also involves a lot of behind the scene work that readers don’t know about) can be a demanding and monotonous job.
The second thought is ‘will it piss off HG?’ I am conscious of avoiding doing so, not because he’s a diagnosed narcissistic psychopath, but because it’s his blog, he does all the work and I’m a non-paying guest. HG has more responsibilities so is entitled to more rights. However, it’s likely evident thatI cannot always stick to this and the way I feel and act on my empathy would be a significant factor.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond in detail to my question, NA. I always value your level-headedness.
I recognise and appreciate the attempt at self-vetting you utilise with regard to your comments.
Leigh
I didn’t say there shouldn’t be supportive comments.
I said:
HG previously confirmed that the blog was not INTENDED as a support forum but that we as empaths have largely interpreted it as such and shifted a lot of the focus there.
Quite different.
NA,
“Support forum” is a little ambiguous and open to interpretation. Some of my supportive comments could be seen as similar to comments you’d see on a support forum.
I just needed clarification on what I can and can’t do. This is Mr. Tudor‘s house and I don’t want to break his rules.
Huh
While I agree with the messages regarding emotional thinking, flawed logic, and individual introspection to shatter rose the coloured glasses, they appear to confirm that the gravitas with which the messages are received and any subsequent (often emotional) responses to be dependent on one’s view and acceptance of the deliverer of said message.
Which of course is an ironic example of emotional thinking and flawed logic in itself.
I agree 100% NA. Any subsequent responses are dependent on one’s view and acceptance of the deliverer of said message. That’s why it so important that we shatter our own rose colored glasses. Otherwise, if we don’t, we will continue to believe their message without question.
Good evening H.G.: I get why as love devotees we would fall into the lovebombing trap ( except you have given us examples to look for), and I get how ET would keep you there as you are caring people so you naturally assume others are, or you might feel compelled to fix the “N victim” or “ help the “ N victim” ( if not following your advice), or you might want to balance the negative with the positive as you feel it provides a better world ( as you have taught… futile) etc… but I don’t get why an empath would automatically be addicted to a narc? I have been ensared by one once but in general I have chosen normals and empaths ( except one antisocial). I usually withdraw from the negativity. I hate drama. I don’t fall for players typically. I choose mostly friend and attraction based relations. So it seems to me, you aren’t saying empaths are addicted to every narcissist, it’s once ensnared the ET and addiction exist in that narc dynamic…. Right? Second… why certain narcs and does this depend on the classification/cadre of the empath? I doubt it’s genetic, the addiction like being an addict to alcohol but maybe I am wrong. But perhaps you will explain when you do your empath series. For example you say Guru style narcs like contagions. But are contagions attracted to gurus, and greaters? Or no… will any old narc will do? Or? Is there a trait that certain classes and cadres are drawn too. Very curious because if there was, I would avoid that type lol!
So much to learn! Don’t ever retire! Thank you!
Narcangel :
One thing I have noticed that outside lovebombing is the negativity, drama, pain that causes the smattering of rose colored glasses but also the end of positivity and productivity. That’s not ET but reality. Narcs and psychopaths don’t do closure. They don’t do mature “ let’s be friends.” ET may have got you into it or to stay too long but the result is always the same at the end. It’s the after that gets real interesting. .See above. While on a blog, bonding is natural ( I get and appreciate going too off the mark is not helpful to all and H.G. reins it in as moderator- he is good! lol) but to feel safe, you want to get to know who you are corresponding. There is zero wrong with bonding with others. It gives emotional support to those who feel alone or are suffering at the hands of narcs and psychopaths to understand they are seen, heard, understood, respected and sometimes …held. To share stories, to gain respect and understanding to be seen and accepted. Respected. To laugh. To cry. After all, It’s empathy at its finest. It gives a positive to the negative. It balances life. I have found narcs don’t do positive conclusions. It could be violence, it could be threats, it could be insults and punishments or the unfair rewrite of history. It’s never productive. It’s never the Truth. It’s like their inside destruct rises to the surface and vomits all over those close. Poisons. Infiltrates, with the goal of control and the deeper goal of to harm. And while that’s realistic, so is the ability to overcome it and keep your rose colored glasses on… and shining. To realize, it’s the narc, not me. I am entitled to peace, to believe in the good of people to see the beauty in life, to accept myself, to bond with others. I am entitled to be me. Shame on him or her and their negative “dark colored glasses. “ Their paranoid, hypersensitivity to threats or perceived threats, their inability to produce self love, their hostile outlook and predatory nature to get by. There is nothing wrong with whistling why you work, to giving someone trust until they no longer earn it, to love and to be loved. To bond. To laugh in the face of adversity. To cry when dealing with inhumanity and to look at life as the cup half full versus not half empty. To believe in idealism, to champion a cause ( Saviors), to die for that cause or those you love or give yourself and overextend for a higher purpose because after all “ thy must be true to myself and my God before anything and anyone else ( matrys) to carry a burden for one you love ( carrier) to try to bring the balance to your life back by pleasing those around you ( CoD) for it is in giving that you receive ( standard) and it is in dying that you receive eternal love( a quote). No, Narcangel, I will wear my rose colored glasses with pride in my very own sanctuary of my kind. ET is both a weakness and a strength. H.G. gives great guidance on how to walk on by narcs… to spot them and to survive them. The best. The best ever. Chapeau! Bravo! Long live H.G.! I mean that in all earnest. …but that doesn’t mean you have to sacrifice yourself. In fact, you are only as strong as when you have to be. Narcs and psychopaths can cause harm but once you survive it, you come out stronger. There is no clearer vision then taking the high road …and wearing pretty pink heart shaped glasses hand in hand with those you love, bond with, respect and… trust …well as you rise as you go higher and higher is Also emotional thinking….my best to you.
Well intentioned as I recognise your comments always are, I think you have missed the point that NA was making.
Dearest Contagious, my love! To look at the glass as being half full is a conscious exaggeration to make it look like what it isn’t.
The glass is filled – to the half. Nor is it fuller than the half, nor less full.
To make it look like what it isn’t will distort our vision and we may find ourselves fighting and becoming martyrs of ideas which are not ours. Ideas which hijack the ability of ours to be connected to our true feelings, our empathy for all living things.
The connection and affection, for the world in your heart, you feel – does not betray you and is real! And I will be the first one to run across the meadows with you, and love and celebrate Creation in all its manifestations. However, for our safety and the safety of our loved ones, I will pinch us both from time to time, so we don’t volunteer to draw our swords for the illusions we are so often presented to fight for.
Our vision of the glass and the balance of the half-half measure is what we need, when dealing with illusions of this world and beyond.
One more thing, H.G. gives a platform and guidance to make the ascension easier.
Hi Jordyguin: Let’s run wild through the fields! lol Your response resonated in me and I see the weakness and why matyr is my main cadre. And Ithought your acting post was excellent. I did acting in my youth but my career and then pregnancy ended it. My greatest success was a one liner in a CBS film. I did a lot of theatre too so I could totally relate. Your thought of seeing the glass half full were dead on. It’s the same with my weakness of seeing the good in people. I am always chided with that, “ oh you always see the good in people”, or you are naive, or “ you are a Pollyanna.” But I always believed we should do this, it is the same with ideals. I don’t know if I can re/wire it but through H.G. I have hampered it. Maybe it’s a quest to force the world to be better than it is in my mind as I want it to be. There is delusion in that as you correctly pointed out. One of my favorite heroes is Martin Luther King Jr, and he says I have a dream…he created a vision where the world was rid of racial injustice and gave his life on trying to get it . He put God first above mankind in doing so. He was no Pollyanna but definitely an idealist. I am very passionate and privately very religious. I know I must apply logic more and I through training aptly do it in my profession but not when it comes to my Faith or ideals. I once had a nonunion contractor ( worth 200 million) who was subjected to such political and may I add the legal system can just be an extension of political injustice ( the main person involved in my case isn’t labor secretary now to Biden after making millions off of public work nonunion contractor’s backs ) that I did an entire appeal for free. I loved every minute of it. My best writing ever. I lost but it was so obvious. They stopped my oral argument real quick. And those who were for me, wouldn’t look at me, one smiled right at me. Party lines were drawn. Now, my rich client has rewarded me through cases and big referrals. He knows what I did. It brought $$$ to me but that’s not why I did it. I did the same for a known actor falsely arrested in Germany during a custody battle. He spent 8 months in a prison before being released and a 200 franc given to him with an apology. I got paid very little but got him what he wanted in the end. I killed myself on that case for no money. I worked long hours and weekends to get around Anyislapp statutes and jurisdiction in LA over Germany and the German citizen in federal court. Not my area of law. You are right though. That struggle to balance the burning passion of my heart with the harsh reality of this world.It’s one of the reasons I follow H.G. to get that much needed pinch. Yup I need it. Thank you so much!
Narc Angel:
It is like this. Alcohol use or smoking a joint is not bad in and of itself. It’s when it becomes a problem or an addiction that it’s bad then give it up. Go no contact. ET is not bad itself or leading with the heart, versus cold hard logic, can create positive change in the world or with the right person, a loving relationship. It can also as instructed lead to a big mistake. If you learn your lesson or through H.G. spot narcs or psychopaths, and grow, you are a better person. Thanks H.G. You are a wise empath. I am more prone to just go, but I also go polite, civil, distanced and untouchable when I must. This leads to them disappearing mostly but it’s on my terms and with a positive note… if I can. I don’t think having ET makes you an automatic addict anymore than having a drink. It’s education, self awareness, HGs education, strength that allows you to keep your ET high while only giving your time, energy or love to those who DESERVE it. There is nothing wrong with empathy. And there is nothing wrong with making mistakes. Even psychopaths in their goal seeking prowess end up missing the mark and wind up lining our prisons. Narcs don’t do joy or happiness and can screw up too. We all make mistakes, it’s how we handle them that matters the most.
You have misunderstood. ET does not create the addiction. Empaths are addicted to narcissists, the addiction creates ET in relation to narcissists in order to compel the empath to enter into and remain in one or more of the five arenas of interaction.
You do not aim to keep your ET high, you must strive to reduce it.
You are mistaking emotional empathy for creating emotional thinking, it does not.
HG, will there be one for Martyr? That is the rarest (if memory serves) and on account of my SO, it is the cadre I am most interested in.
Yes.
Let me tell you how Martyr my boyfriend is LOL He ordered an old fashioned and they brought him a vodka cranberry, and he wouldn’t send it back because he felt bad because the server was new!! It’s the worst. Hahaha. It does work to my benefit tho.
BC30, wonderful! It made me smile, it’s so familiar to me, even though I’m not a Martyr.
I hope you are still together and doing well! 🙂
H.G. thank you! I missed that point despite years of following you and reading your works. Empathy is not the same as emotional thinking. I get it now! It’s the failure to use logic when dealing with narcs;) I also agree with your comments 100% and I may have not … completely… understood Narcangel. I respect her. I will have to ask you in Question Me if you were ever a Diplomat? I have never met a better moderator;)
Even though I’m not Codependent this is the one I’m most interested in
Where is the series? I want to read them all and can’t find them?
Presque Vu – they aren’t available…yet.
Still waiting … and looking forward to the expose x
Yes please!
I need to know because it’s jarring
HG, you have been busy 🙂 I am certainly interested in your new empath ‘series’. Thank you so much 🙂