Whore

WHORE

 

Tell me, what is it like to be such a whore? How does it feel? Are you proud of yourself? Are you pleased with what you have become? Are your parents proud of what their son or daughter has done with their life, to become this thing that prostitutes itself so regularly and with no sense of shame? If only they knew eh? If only they knew the lengths, you go to in order to get what you want. It must be a shallow existence don’t you think? Knowing that nobody truly likes you, that all of the love, affection, friendship, kindness and gratitude has to be bought and paid for. What an empty life that must be? I know you are very good at it.

I will give you that. You are a professional when it comes to performing this role. I must admit that I sometimes watch with a strange kind of, well, I suppose it is respect isn’t it? Yes, respect for the way that you work your role. You know what to say don’t you? Those words come easy to you but they should because you have used them often enough on other people. You are a serial offender if the truth be told and that is why the epitaph of whore is so fitting. You know just what to say to get what you want. You know when to say it, what to say and how to say it, just like a hooker parading her wares in a window in Amsterdam.

You have worked out your best side, your most beguiling stance and you have them come flocking, every time. I am impressed by it; I have to say. You make it seem so real. You fooled me, there was no doubt about it. You have used your experience and you are experienced, to heighten the sensation so it is better than anything else. It is probably better than the real thing. I know you are just going through the motions but I am wise to you, I would be a fool if I was not, but there are countless of them out there who will fall for it time and time again.

You won’t be going out of business, not at all. You will have a steady stream of those willing to have sugar poured in their ear, hear those honey-coated words tumble from those oh so inviting lips. And the promises, oh the promises. So difficult to resist, so inviting, so exciting. They clamour for your attention in the end. I find it odd in a way because you are selling yourself but you don’t actually have to sell yourself do you? They come to you. They flock in their droves, lured by your siren call and you always deliver. You always give them exactly what they want. You did that with me. You knew what I wanted and you provided it for me, in spades. It was sensational and you got me hooked so I didn’t want it from anyone else. That is pretty powerful.

I wish I knew how it felt though. How does it feel to live like this? How does it feel knowing that everything is a show, a performance and it isn’t real? What is it like being so shallow? Do you even care? Perhaps you don’t, after all you are getting what you want aren’t you? Well we both are actually so we should both be delighted with it, but why is it that I am not? Why is it that I feel used? I thought I was the one who was in control, I thought I was the one who was calling the shots and yet I always seem to surrender that control to you. I thought I was the one who got to play the tune and you danced to it but then it doesn’t always work that way does it? I wish I could work out why that was. You make me feel like you at times, or at least you make me feel how I imagine you feel, cheap, used, dirty, a whore.

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. This is all you know isn’t it? This is how you have had to adapt, how you have to ensure you survive by getting people to do what you want, to make them like you, to make them adore you and love you. I wonder how long you will carry on like this? Is this the way it is always going to be? Is this you are consigned to do for the rest of your life, seeking a way through the vagaries of your existence by always doing what the other person wants. You need to please don’t you? That’s how you survive.

You exist only through the permission and desires of the others. You may think you wield the power, you may think that pleasure, absolute please, joy, ecstasy and delight are within your gift but you are beholden to provide those things because if you do not then you are nothing. You are nothing. Nothing without me. Nothing at all. I made you who you are, you need me although you will tell me that I need you. Perhaps we need one another? I don’t like to think that is the case because I have to be the one that makes the decisions, pulls the strings and gets what I want. I dictate and you react. That’s the way it is isn’t it?

So, you carry on doing what you do best. Carry on imagining that people really do love you, that people really do like you and that they want to be with you because you are so wonderful and delightful. It is your performance that they want and you had better not forget that. You had better remember that you are beholden to their desires. You dance to the tune and he who pays the piper plays the tune. Everybody pays though don’t they?

The payment is what it is all about and you always make sure you get paid. You are never short-changed, ripped off or discounted. You won’t do anything without extracting your payment and you make sure you get full value for your endeavours don’t’ you? Nothing for free. Everybody pays. Nothing because you want to do it or feel you should. It is all about the payment. That is all you want, the payment for yourself.

Whore.

I hate you

190 thoughts on “Whore

  1. Grace says:

    That is what a successful narcissist and a good prostitute have in common: They create the illusion of love, so the victim/ the customer feels loved. The exchange is for the narcissist fuel for creating a world where the victim feels loved and has good sex. And for the prostitute money (also a form of energy) for sex and perhaps the illusion of love.

    A good example: The film “Moulin Rouge” with the songs “She is mine Hindi sad diamond” and “El Tange de Roxanne- Moulin Rouge” which is one of the best songs with dancing to express intensive feelings between lovers, also feelings of aggression and the drama and tragic that can come with it)

  2. TudorMeGently says:

    Two comments on The Thread That Won’t Die: HG- “Ensure you comply” Pass the bromide, please. HG- “…..I don’t wear panties. I wear the trousers.” Not even occasionally? How very vanilla of you.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Have to admit, I enjoyed “Ensure you comply” too.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Hahahahahahaha, way to go!

    3. Viol. says:

      He very likely has extensive practice getting the knicks off other people, but not so he can wear them himself.

    4. WhoCares says:

      TudorMeGently,

      Love the name!

  3. annaamel says:

    WordPress: I see you are reading ‘Whore’. Would you also like to read ‘Cum-Covered Princess Slut?’

    1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      Pahahahaha!

    2. Viol. says:

      Holy ravioli!

    3. Heebee-jeebees says:

      annaamel, Dying laughing, it’s so true! Also, I thought your reply to Cas was very sweet and emotionally supportive.

  4. annaamel says:

    Hi Cas,

    Thankyou for your post.

    I reckon when HG posted this, he didn’t anticipate a person who works in the sex industry responding and feeling like they or their profession was being judged. I think that may have been an unintended consequence of the post and its content.

    This post is not about sex workers. It’s not even about women. It’s not – really – about people who are engaging with the narcissist. It’s about the narcissist.

    In my initial comment on this thread I said the post was about the narcissist, because it seemed so obvious. But because narcissists can’t directly self-criticise, while this post does describe behaviours the narcissist engages in and therefore is about narcissists, these criticisms cannot exist internally within the narcissist – they have to be projected outwards – onto others.

    Like WiserNow, I see the term ‘whore’ as a pejorative. It’s generally used to suggest that someone is living transactionally, without authenticity, without integrity. That someone is selling out, rather than selling anything specific. It’s not really even about sex. This post is definitely not a criticism of you or your work.

    I am sorry to hear you were brought up by a narcissist who taught you to put others’ needs before your own. I am also sorry to hear that you feel lonely at times. I hope you continue to post.

  5. Cas says:

    Hello. What an interesting title. I usually don’t write a message but here it is…because i am what the title says. A whore. This article seems a nacissistic impression and projection about whores. Somehow a sort of ‘we are the same’. In a way, yes, maybe, if the whore has narcissistic traits and therefore uses her proffession to get fuel. It makes it more rewarding than only the money. But no, we do not put up just 1 show. You always give something of your real self. At least i do. Guess that this makes me not a real good one, no? Or, the opposite, an even better one, because it is something real?
    My mother knows about my work, and for her, i am no more less than in any other proffession. I am proud about myself, because, it is no easy job.
    But i must say i am this way, because, my father was a narccisist, and i was trained adapt to the needs of others since birth. This makes me good and bad in my job. Good because i know what they really want and adjust to it. Bad because they feel the crackles in the armour and can get under my skin.
    You want to know how it feels to live like this. Lonely. It is lonely. They come and visit me, and i give them what they want. Sex and intimacy, because, intimacy is what they also want. With some, you think you can be friends. But you know it is not real. It is an illusion. They only are nice because they can get you do more things. Friendship is never free, because, they always stay customers, and this agreement is always on. They expect something in return for the friendship.
    You cannot be yourself , you must never forget this, but this is hard because it is with fysical intimacy and for women, this makes it hard. It feels empty because they return to their wives, to spend the rest of the friday evening, and we are by ourselves, alone, with the tv, and no one around. Everyone has company, to who they can be they’re real self, but not us. For us it is giving the show, and depending on the customer, it is with or without dislike of their body and smell etc. A nice customer is nice to work with but it makes you more aware that you are alone and that it is not a real connection. So this is how it feels. It is a proffession with many contradictions.You must be able to do very intimate things, also with people from who you want to stay away from as far as possible. Sometimes it is very busy, and you just want some rest but the next one comes in already…and the next day you wait for hours and no one comes, and you sit and wait, and bore yourself.
    Maybe it is hard for me, because i am alone. There are sexual workers with a boyfriend, or husband, but there are not many who can accept this proffession, from real love and respect of their spouses. This is how it should be. The man cannot accept it. But if he loves me, for who i am, than he also has to accept this side.

    Why do you want to know how it feels? You wrote an excellent book about sex and the narcissist, about how you use prostitutes to obtain fuel. Do you want to know how we feel so you can manipulate us even better? Well this is possible, and since a narcissist traumatized me, with exactly what you wrote about in the book, i should not tell you this because i don’t want other women to happen this too to them. Or is it, you had real feelings after all, for…a whore? Are you angry about her, that you felt something, or…did you write this piece to manipulate us, to let us think: he has feelings after all and this is how it shows?
    I don’t know. You must have had a reason.

    So you feel used and in some way dissatisfied.
    I guess this the echo you feel, about the unnatural payment factor for this intimate deed. Can it be that deep down inside, you do have human emotions, even though you say you don’t. Why should YOU feel used? You did go into the room. And the rule is: we help anyone in our shop. So this was to be expected. You can look at it 2 ways: it is human nature to feel like this, used, when the unnatural payment transaction sex take place. Deep down, we want to be exclusive to eachother, and you know that within 1 hour, we peform exactly the same again, with another man like you. Or, maybe it is your narcissism, why you feel like this. Wich wants to be unique, omnipotent, and with a women like us, you are not. You don’t have control over us, even though we forfill all your wishes and you think you do. You only have control unless you pay. So its not real control of the free will. Maybe it is a powerplay, between you and the whore you wrote about. You want her fuel so you do everything like you do. And she did something what made you come back. But you only want fuel. So this woman made you dependent on her ability to gave you fuel and since you are the one who wants to be in control, you don’t like this. And, maybe you are jealous, about our power. Everyone comes, for us, to spend time with us, and they even pay. Imagine that you are being paid, to get fuel.

    What you write, is exactly like how people view narcissists, when they have some deeper knowledge about them. So a projection, yes, maybe it is a projection. Its how we (as people used by narcissists, not whores) feel about you.

    1. WiserNow says:

      Cas,

      Thank you for your comment. I enjoyed reading and thinking about what you have said.

      I think there are many negative connotations and social stigmas around being a ‘whore’, and yet, it is considered the ‘oldest profession’. There is obviously a demand for sex workers and a need too, so the constant and unending ‘shame’ that surrounds the profession is a curious thing in relation to social behaviour.

      In general, sex is considered to be an ‘instrument’ of intimacy between two people and the social ‘ideal’ in general is that it’s based on love, respect and emotional attachment. To then make sex a commodity that is traded for money seems to be a complete shift in comparison to the social narrative of the ‘ideal’.

      In my view, when there are two contrasting social narratives, a black and white situation, people (in general) resolve the stark disparity by admiring and ‘believing’ one while also casting the other down. To me it seems to be a way to resolve the cognitive dissonance in people’s minds. To justify their beliefs and to continue living with two contrasting phenomena, one of them has to become a ‘scapegoat’ which carries all that is considered ‘bad’.

      I don’t like the word ‘whore’ because the word itself is so derogatory, made so by centuries of negative beliefs and shame. There is a social need for sex workers and they are in constant demand, so the shame and stigma to me is a projection.

      There is recent pop song about sex workers by Stromae, a French singer. It is called ‘Fils de Joie’ (Sons of Joy) – a play on the French phrase ‘Filles de Joie’ (Girls of Joy – a euphemism for prostitutes). Stromae wrote the song after watching a French TV program called ‘Ca Commence Aujourd’hui’ (in English: ‘It Starts Today’) where people speak about their personal experiences in a unique and honest way. On this program, Stromae saw a man discussing his feelings for his mother, who was a sex worker. This man said he loved his mother very much and that he was proud of her. He was proud of her work ethic and her resilience and for earning the money that meant he would have a stable, protective home.

      Stromae wrote the song in a clever way so that the words could be said by the sex worker or by her customer or by the sex worker’s pimp. It combines the lyrics in a way so that the words could be said by any one of them. By the end of the song, you can see that they all benefit from each other and also shame each other too. The video for the song is interesting too.

      I could say more, but unfortunately, I have run out of time 🙂 Thank you again for your comment Cas. If and when I have the time to reply again, I will.

    2. WiserNow says:

      Hello again Cas,

      I’m sorry for the abrupt ending to my previous comment. I now have the time to complete my earlier thoughts.

      I have thought about your father being a narcissist and how that conditioned you to adapt to the needs of others since birth. I’m sorry that happened to you. It’s definitely something I can understand. While a narcissist parent conditions a child to adapt to the needs of others, it is interesting how those needs manifest and also how the child’s life and direction is influenced by that. The conditioning in a child’s early life is so strong; it literally creates the child’s mind and instinctive behaviour for the rest of his or her life. It is also very difficult to alter this conditioning, even when there is a conscious effort to do so.

      Your description of how the conditioning can make you both good and bad at your job is also understandable. It makes me wonder how many of the men who see you are narcissists. I imagine that it would be mainly narcissists who deliberately (whether consciously or not) look for the crackles in order to get under your skin. For you, I wonder if having experience of many men makes you able to detect more easily what a customer is likely to do or how they will behave. Your armour must get stronger with experience and knowledge. You’re correct, it’s not an easy job. It requires the ability to be intimate while not being intimate. I can imagine that you have more insight into human behaviour than an experienced psychologist does.

      I find many aspects of your comment interesting. It’s difficult to focus on each one because it would be neverending to discuss each point, and even then, there seems to be no satisfactory or final conclusive way to see it or approach it.

      While reading your comment, I find that all of your specific points seem to merge together into a general kind of point that highlights the differences between things that – by their very nature – cannot be the same. That is, men and women; empathy and non-empathy; intimacy and armour, etc – these things are different and removed from each other. Yet, there is still a need for them to ‘merge’ with each other in some way. The process of ‘merging’ causes unrest, disharmony and also dissatisfaction. Added to this is the inability to speak openly and candidly about certain subjects because society in general places stigmas around them or they are uncomfortable and ‘delicate’ to discuss.

      Thank you again for your comment Cas. It is very interesting to think about and discuss the many points that you have written about.

    3. Cas says:

      Ps sorry for any spelling mistakes.
      …English is not my nr. 1 language.

    4. Contagious says:

      Cas I had two friends enter the sex industry briefly in Beverly Hills, both left damaged by it. They did it for money but the cost was too great for… them. I always wonder why they felt damaged when it was a contract. Sex for cash. Why do they look down upon themselves? Why not the buyer if it’s so bad? I worked for 6 years in Vegas and I can tell you there are hookers who don’t. They are quite proud of the money that they make. One spoke confidently on the radio when I worked there About making 350,000 a year. So yes it could be narc on narc or it could be a perception of the contract. It is a contract after all between two businessmen. I don’t speak of no consensus. Not a trade I would choose but again I reiterate there are many in Vegas who are fine with the deal. I have no judgment. I would agree that a narc won’t find much authentic fuel buying a hooker in Vegas. Service… yes.

  6. WiserNow says:

    In the news this morning, I heard that Rupert Murdoch and Jerry Hall are set to divorce. It’s not surprising – the two of them are an odd couple.

  7. Rebecca says:

    SP,

    I have a plan on play right now. How it turns out is anyone’s guess, but I’m OK. I’ve been through worse and I have a back up plan and a safe place , if I need to run to it. Xx ❤ I hear you and I’m paying attention. I’ve gotten out of a worse situation than this one before. I’m ok.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Rebecca, to read that you have a back up plan and a safe place; and that you are ok – is so good 🙂 Well done 🙂 x

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks AspEmp 😊xx I’ll keep updating on here too. Xx Thanks for everyone’s support too. Xx

        1. Asp Emp says:

          🙂 xx

    2. WhoCares says:

      Rebecca,

      That is good news. Happy to hear you have somewhere safe to go if need be. 💓

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks WhoCares for your words of encouragement and support xx

    3. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I am very happy to read that, Rebecca! Sending strength your way!!!!!

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks SP for your words of encouragement and support. Xx

    4. Joa says:

      Rebecca, and I am also very happy!

      Human should always be ABLE to turn back.

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks Joa! Xx I appreciate your support. 😁

    5. JB says:

      Rebecca,

      That’s good that you have a plan and somewhere you can go if you need to. I’m thinking of you xx

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks JB, I’m hoping to have some more positive news soon xx

    6. WiserNow says:

      Rebecca,
      It’s good to hear you have a plan and a safe place. It’s a difficult situation when your ‘nearest and dearest’ don’t respect or care about your feelings or point of view. I’m sorry that’s happening. You have somewhere to talk about it and get your feelings out here though. Your feelings are valid and real. I hope you can stay safe and keep commenting here. You are understood 🙂

      1. Rebecca says:

        WiserNow,

        Thanks for your understanding and support. I have a straight plan and safe places to go. My issues, HG is working on my ET and my fear, are what are keeping me from flying off. I’m learning to see the fear for what it is, bullshit. The fear isn’t based in reality, it’s not legit and I shouldn’t be afraid. I’m not going to die, when I leave. I’m not going to be homeless, starve, be alone or fail. Those are all fears that aren’t real, but come to mind because of my annoying ET, that is as strong and overwhelming as Godzilla on Tokoyo. That puts it in perspective of what I’m dealing with daily. These Geyser emotions are a bitch. Sorry…I’m reciting in my head the logical points to myself throughout the day, whenever the fears come down on me.1) You’re not going to die 2) You’ll be safe 3) You’re not alone 4) You won’t be homeless 5) You have others who love you 6) You’ve done this before and survived 7) This is doable 8) You’ll be happier

        1. WiserNow says:

          Rebecca,
          You’re welcome. I’m glad you have a straight plan and safe places to go. I know what you mean about ET and how strong and overwhelming it can be. Your description of the Geyser emotions makes me think that the strong ET you’re describing may also be caused by your high sensitivity (i.e. being an HSP) as you mentioned to me in another conversation.

          Being an HSP means emotional responses are stronger than average. I think this makes ET stronger, and irrational fears feel more intense. I know my emotions can go from zero to 100 in a fairly short time, or because of something that wouldn’t bother others to the same degree.

          When I feel an emotional reaction is taking over, I practice focusing on the emotion and then using internal dialogue to control it. HG’s techniques to lower ET have helped a lot to do this. I focus on the emotion and talk to myself (in my head), asking myself why I feel the way I do and then becoming less emotional by thinking rationally about the cause.

          The logical points you recite to control your irrational fears are similar. They are great points to keep in mind Rebecca. I’m going to ‘borrow’ them from you and recite them myself. Thank you for mentioning them 🙂

          1. Rebecca says:

            WiserNow,

            I agree with you, I think being HSP does have an affect on my emotions being higher, it’s why I think I came back strong Geyser as one of my triple hybrid empath cadres/schools I have.

            HG helped with the logical thinking over my fears, I just have to keep reciting them when my fears flare up. I wonder if I’m HG’s worse fear case yet. (HG?)

            No problem, you can borrow the points all you want. Thanks HG for your logical thinking and reciting the points does help. Xx

      2. Rebecca says:

        WiserNow,

        I’m OK, don’t worry. I have people I can call if I need them right away. He hasn’t beaten me before, I don’t think he will, but I’m on-guard for anything, it’s what I know, what I grew up with and what I keep getting entangled with. Will I ever stop ending up here time and time again? Is this all I’m attracted to? Can I even have a normal relationship? Would i even be satisfied with a normal relationship?? I don’t know, I don’t know.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Rebecca,

          “Will I ever stop ending up here time and time again?” – no. Not if you apply HG’s work in a systematic manner – which I believe you can and will do, for yourself (and other people who you will support in the future, because you have that unselfish trait in you).

          “Is this all I’m attracted to?” – addiction to narcissism is infinite BUT it does not mean you have to “give in” to it, just make sure you learn to manage it by understanding and recognising when the triggers of the addiction is “ignited”.

          “Can I even have a normal relationship?” – Yes, you can.

          “Would I even be satisfied with a normal relationship?” – Yes.

          **normal = one where your addiction to narcissism is manageable and not necessarily ‘triggering’ your ET, upsetting your LT.

          Have faith in yourself. You can do it, you can achieve it. Just concentrate on your plan with freeing yourself then you can strengthen your existing knowledge and build up your level of wisdom.

          It’s good to see you doing better 🙂

          1. WiserNow says:

            That’s a very well explained reply Asp Emp. I agree with your answers to Rebecca’s questions.

            Rebecca,
            One thing that may help is to focus on something else to take your mind off the ET. For example, if possible, try something new or do something you have been meaning to do in order to immerse yourself in something distracting. For example, redecorate a room, or just clean out a cupboard, etc. Focusing on something like that may free your mind from the ET and the questions going round and round in your head.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            WN, from what I understand, Rebecca is doing really well and working towards her own goals by communicating with, and obtaining expert guidance from HG directly, which, may include discussions about her ET / LT.

          3. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            Why do I detect a disturbance in the force? haha

            Similar to you, from my understanding also, I think Rebecca is obtaining expert advice and guidance from HG directly too. That’s my observation from some of Rebecca’s comments. In my other comment to Rebecca above, I said, “HG’s techniques to lower ET have helped (me) a lot…”. Hence, I acknowledged HG’s expert guidance.

            Also, I acknowledged your comment to Rebecca too. I said, “That’s a very well explained reply Asp Emp. I agree with your answers to Rebecca’s questions.” I agreed with you and provided a positive and inclusive response to you.

            I then provided my own suggestion to Rebecca about her ET, in response to her comment to me.

            There is no need for you to be defensive Asp Emp, of either HG or Rebecca.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            WN, I’ll defend, protect and support whoever I decide and wish to do so. In my opinion, when it comes to ET, nobody should be advised to “take their mind off it”, that is not dealing with ET in a logical manner.

          5. WiserNow says:

            I think we’re on the same page Asp Emp.

            Our comments to Rebecca show that you and I had good intentions and offered supportive replies.

            The suggestion to “take your mind off the ET” referred to Rebecca describing her recurring fears caused by her “annoying ET that is as strong and overwhelming as Godzilla on Tokyo.”

            Personally, I have found that it does help to reduce ET and recurring thoughts by focusing on something else. For example, today I spent time cooking and created a new recipe by adjusting a few ingredients in a dish I made. By spending time focusing on something practical, it did distract from ET.

            The way I see it, if the immediate situation is safe, this is dealing with ET in a logical manner, especially if you are aware of the need to reduce ET.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Comment redacted owing to breach of existing stipulation. See also my reply to this comment for further explanation.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            This is to WN and Asp Emp from HG.

            You were previously warned not to comment directly towards one another in light of previous behaviour.

            I note that WN breached this albeit the comment was benign in nature, therefore I allowed this minor transgression to pass.
            I note that AE replied, again a breach, but also benign in nature, therefore I also allowed this minor transgression to pass.
            Thereafter, WN once more engaged in being provocative by levelling the accusation at AE that she was being defensive. This has once again resulted in a barbed exchange.

            No further comments between you will be allowed, even benign ones.

            Ensure you comply.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Yes Sir.

            Sorry Sir.

            🙂

          9. Rebecca says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thanks for your answers and your support. I’m hoping to have good news to report and a plan accomplished. Xx

          10. NarcAngel says:

            HG
            Has the order of non-interaction previously imposed between certain commenters been removed or has there been a breach by the hard of understanding?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            It has not NA and I have addressed this in my comment above.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Rebecca
          It was all you knew before you knew, but now you know.
          It CAN be different. That is up to you now.

          1. Rebecca says:

            NarcAngel,
            I admire your LT, if it weren’t for my ET I would have been long gone…now, I’m struggling with my options, I can’t decide which one I want to do. I wish I could just turn off these damn emotions and just THINK and not feel so much, so frustrating. I’m annoying myself at this point. I just want to say, pick an option already! Get it going! Hurry it up!

      3. Rebecca says:

        WiserNow,
        I must be crazy to keep failing into, being attracted to toxic people and relationships.

        1. WiserNow says:

          You’re not crazy Rebecca. The ET and the emotional responses you’re having aren’t your fault, plus they are very strong and powerful. They are part of the conditioning and addiction to narcissists.

          You’re not alone in the ET and the emotional responses. There are lots of people with the same kinds of thoughts and emotions. They can reduce and you can gain more control over them with practice and effort.

          1. Rebecca says:

            WiserNow,

            I feel crazy sometimes because my emotions are all the way up there and sometimes they’re overwhelming to fight down, to control. My fear is the hardest to control. I’ve overcome a lot of fears already and I’m still working on overcoming more. I used to be afraid to travel alone. I’ve overcome that fear. I’ve gone to England by myself, met up with friends there at Heathrow Airport and I’ve gone to Colorado on my own and driven to South Carolina. I’ve sang to a crowd on a karaoke stage and I have stagefright and fear of public singing, I did both and it was fun. 😆 Just some of the fears I targeted and succeeded on conquering. Karaoke still makes me nervous, but it’s doable. 😁 I’ve been working on my fears for a while and I still have more work to do. I think my fear of sharks can stay, I don’t plan on going swimming with them, ever. 😆

          2. WiserNow says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            Thanks for your comment, and sorry about the late reply. I was following HG’s Revenge series on YouTube in the last month and I didn’t visit the blog to comment.

            I can understand your emotions being overwhelming and difficult to control. I can also understand that you have worked on overcoming your fears and you’re still working on that. To me, it feels like a neverending battle sometimes. If you focus on overcoming one specific thing, something else appears.

            The way you have eliminated altogether the prospect of swimming with sharks is interesting. It’s something that is easy to eliminate. I don’t plan to swim with sharks either, although it would be an exciting if it was done in a steel cage. I don’t think I would find it terrifying if I was with a shark diving expert and the experience was organised by a reputable operation. There is a trust factor inherent in whether the fear is overwhelming or not.

            If you think about the emotion of fear (or most emotions) in an analytical way it’s easier to overcome them by considering the opposite of the emotion. Take for instance your stagefright; if you were afraid of singing to a crowd, the fear may have been based in embarrassment about what people would think, or a fear of failing to hit the notes or remember the words. Once you actually sang on stage though, it was fun, so the fears were unfounded.

            Perhaps you also realised that it didn’t matter so much what people thought of your singing anyway. It wasn’t a big deal because the next amateur singer got up on stage after you and the crowd’s attention then shifted to them. If you were so nervous that you started hyperventilating or having a clutcher on stage, it’s highly likely there was someone in the crowd who was knowledgeable about first aid. There would be those who would jump up to help, so even in that circumstance, fear is understandable but irrational or unfounded.

            Ignoring your fears or other emotions is easier said than done though. And when your emotions operate with a hair-trigger (like they do for HSPs) then it requires even more self-analysis to decipher how to overcome or eliminate them.

          3. Rebecca says:

            WiserNow,

            I really feel I found where I belong here.xx And it means so much that everyone I chat with here understands me on some level, knows where I’m coming from and mostly been where I’ve been and can see me, really see me…it means so much. Thank you for that and all of you, thank you for being you. Xx

          4. WiserNow says:

            Thank you for your message Rebecca, it’s very kind of you and you are welcome. It does help a lot when people give you the space to just be yourself and allow you to say what you think, and at least ‘try’ to understand you.

            Thank you also for being you 🙂 xx

          5. Rebecca says:

            WiserNow,

            I got HG’s audio of Fear and the Empathic Victim and it helped with my fears and my ET associated with my fears. I’m dealing with my situation with less fear controlling me and how I’m handling my situation. I’m currently working through my plans and hopefully GOSO becomes a reality from my plans. It’s a struggle because I have things pending and things I have to go through first. I don’t want to lose my income and other similar factors playing a part in what I gotta work through. Thanks for your support and everyone here being supportive to me too. I appreciate it, makes a difference to me. Xx

          6. WiserNow says:

            Rebecca,

            It’s good that you’re dealing with your situation and working through your plans. You’re welcome about the support too. Thank you for your message.

            I also have HG’s audio Fear and the Empathic Victim. Now that you mention it, I need to listen to it again. It helps to re-listen after a while because the information can be considered slightly differently, according to whatever other ‘learning’ has occurred in the meantime. It’s not exactly seeing the information through a different ‘lens’ (to use that slightly clumsy word); instead, the information can be considered in more depth according to how it resonates with personal thoughts and observations.

            Thanks again for your message Rebecca and I hope your situation works out well.

  8. NarcAngel says:

    I have also read this through the lens of a weaponized empath.

    1. A Victor says:

      Aha, great way to read it! It puts the whoredom squarely on the narcissist! Thank you!

  9. Joa says:

    I perceive this text as an internal “confession” of the narcissist. Own dialogue.

    N2 also once called himself a male whore. The same overtone of his words, although less elaborate. I understood just as well. N1 once said the same thing in a more veiled way – in times of crisis.

    Of course, at certain times they can also be interpreted as dialogues: narcissist-empath, empath-narcissist.

    1. Contagious says:

      I watched a Sam Vatnim video yesterday which basically said victims of narc abuse and he does not believe in Empaths are really hooked because the love bombing is the mother we never had that unconditional love and that hooks us to narcissists and we become narcs in response.lots of laughing at his conference. The thing is this does not sit true to me at all.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is incorrect.

  10. annaamel says:

    I think you’re correct Emily. The whore here is the narcissist.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Thank you, Annaamel!
      I think you can expand on an answer better than I. I can’t say specifically how it is that a narcissist gets into projecting, but I know two things
      100 %:

      They cannot reflect on ever themself being wrong.
      Projection gives control and power.

      So that´s the black box I need. There are a couple of psychologists on youtube reflecting on what projection actually is, how it is constructed, using terms like ‘the false self attacking the real self’ and so on. “They think that they talk about you, but they actually talk about themself”

      If HG would write a book on Projection, I suppose I would be sure about the mechanism.

      It is important to understand that the narc projects also when he is bragging. Then he is actually talking about YOU.
      “I always put the needs of other people first”
      Then he is projecting towards himself. He is unknowingly actually talking about you. It is YOU who are putting other people’s needs first.

      So then it’s “They think that they talk about themself, but they actually talk about you”.

      1. Anna says:

        I agree completly. This is projection. What the narcissist deep down really thinks about themselves. They mirror and project it back onto their partner. Deep down people with NPD really dislike almost hate themselves and have an incredibly fragile ego.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We do no that ourselves, this is a myth you have been told to make you you feel better about yourself after the way we have treated you.

          1. Anna says:

            Interesting notion.

            I myself have never been told this. It was an observation. I have no need to feel better about myself. If people treat me badly, it is all on them. They will have to deal with their karma when it comes, much as if I treat someone bad, I will have to deal with my karma when it comes.

            I do not need fuel, for I am all the fuel that I need. I can be alone. I do not need anyone.

            Someone who feeds off others, and requires others to boost their ego is in my opinion very fragile indeed.

          2. Rebecca says:

            HG,
            I was fed this bullshit through other narcissist sites I used to visit and try and get education from. I don’t go to them anymore and haven’t in months. I find the truth here and the support on the blog here. It didn’t make sense to me that I was told, the narcissist hates himself/herself. They don’t act like they hate themselves. They act like their shit doesn’t stink…sorry for the bluntness…but, I’ve had this argument with my therapist before and I tell him he’s wrong. I don’t even bother arguing now. I know the truth and that’s all that matters.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Precisely.
            The narcissism will not allow the narcissist to hate themselves as that would offend the necessity of control and affect other aspects of the Prime Aims adversely.

          4. Anna says:

            This does make logical sense. How can someone with NPD hate themselves? If it is a defence mechanism, then it would kick in so the the individual with NPD would not be able to hate themself? Why is it then, that so much literature states this when it seems clearly not to be true?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Because it’s written by people who don’t understand narcissism and because saying the narcissist hates themselves is a way of making the defeated victim feel better about themselves, but it’s wrong. You articulate correctly why the NPD would not make the narcissist hate themselves.

            A mid ranger May say to someone else “ I hate myself” but that’s a pity play done for control and fuel and isn’t a genuine admission.

          6. KitKat says:

            HG, The narcissism acts as a defense mechanism which prevents the person from despising themselves?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and moreover why would one despise oneself when one is brilliant?

          8. Rebecca says:

            HG,
            It makes more sense for people with NPD to think highly of themselves, rather than to loathe themselves, as the LMRSOMATIC tried to make me believe he loathed himself…..pity play, pity play….

          9. k mac says:

            I guess there is no self to hate?

          10. Rebecca says:

            HG,

            You know how I sometimes worry about being a narcissist and you’ve told me and other people on here have told me I’m not? Well, I just had a eureka moment….besides the fact you tell me I’m not a narcissist..I now know I’m not a narcissist because there are times I don’t like me, when I’m down and according to you, narcissist don’t ever feel that way about themselves. They don’t have real moments of not liking themselves, so there’s the proof floating in the pudding. Well, at least it’s not a fly. 😆😁 xx

          11. KitKat says:

            ‘Indeed and moreover why would one despise oneself when one is brilliant?’
            And self-hatred is one aspect of the creature?

          12. Witch says:

            “ We do not hate that ourselves “

            It will be interesting find out how that works with the existence of the creature

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Witch,

            Do you think narcissists truly view the creature as a part of themselves? I think they view it as weak, pathetic, a liar and nothing at all to do with the person they are now.

            I think when fuel levels fall the main issue is self doubt, the criticisms of their past that form part of the creature spring more readily to mind, making them perhaps less self assured until fuel is delivered but I don’t think there is self hatred anywhere in the mind of the construct.

            That’s just my interpretation, no idea if it’s near the truth.

            I also think Vaknin projects his own pity plays a bit haha!

            Xx

        2. Another Cat says:

          Anna

          To summarize my thoughts above, I think projection is just one of several tools the narcissist has in their mind/brain in order to assert control over people.

          And the inevitable goal in every moment of his life is to achieve fuel.

          Projection makes us puzzled and dizzy and thereby we are controlled in that moment. The subconscious in the narcissist asks:

          “Let me see, how can I now control that other person, I know, this moment I’ll use … projecting!, I just accuse them of some things, oh I’ll just pick some features from myself, that will quickly give me a palett to use, a script, material, and at the same time they will be very puzzled.”

          As HG says, narcs don’t feel bad about themselves at all. The traumas or lack-of-control of their mind occured when they were a small child, which made their mind choose to become manipulative. As a selfprotection.

          There is no trauma-in-the-mind occuring anymore after childhood, it’s all baked and ready as HG explains. These days it works “automatically”. The narc’s mind chooses a tool at every interaction they have: projection, triangulation, withdrawal, silent treatment, digging-up-the-past, wordsalad, etc.

          With my often racing mind, constantly putting energy on trying to figure things out, understanding ppl, it was a great great relief learning this about narcs.

          I don’t need to figure out mechanisms within in the narcissist. He simply manipulates me because he needs fuel in every second. For that he has several tools in his kit.

      2. annaamel says:

        ‘So that´s the black box I need. There are a couple of psychologists on youtube reflecting on what projection actually is, how it is constructed, using terms like ‘the false self attacking the real self’ and so on. “They think that they talk about you, but they actually talk about themself”

        I read a study recently, AC, which suggests that projection is a side-product of the process of repression. The more someone tries to repress an idea (not think of it, not deal with it) the more that idea rises up and asserts itself somewhere inside the mind. If this idea cannot be integrated as a personal criticism it is instead pushed out onto the external environment. The person ‘thinks’ the idea but in a safe way – by having it attached to someone else. This way they are managing the thoughts that push up but in a way that allows their construct to stay solid.

  11. Cindy says:

    These words describe a narcissist. From “no sense of shame” and “shallow existence” to “nobody truly likes you” and “serial offender,” if the words are intended to describe a woman being devalued, projection permeates the entire piece.

    “You make it seem so real,” “…probably better than the real thing,” “…everything is a show, a performance that isn’t real.”

    Perhaps, when your own world exists within certain boundaries, it’s difficult to NOT see others’ lives the same way. And it would be difficult to NOT wish you were as skilled as others at attracting attention when attention was your life breath.

    “You exist only through the permission and desires of the others.” There is no other personality that fits this description as well as a narcissist, is there? They create false personas because their only value is in being someone else that can attract others. And they refine that skill because they have to.

    “You won’t do anything without extracting your payment…” 100 percent narcissist. Favors aren’t a thing to a narcissist.

    These words describe a narcissist and the emptiness inside.

    1. Contagious says:

      Yet I worked in Las Vegas as a lawyer. There are many in the profession who don’t feel ashamed at it. They choose it. One woman was making $350,000 a year and spoke quite proudly about it on the radio there.. I don’t get sex for money personally but if someone is ok with it so what? It’s not worse then blood for oil. If it is Not forced. Of legal age. Who cares? I think women can make their own minds up. No judgement from me even if it is a business trade I couldn’t do. I hate the term whore. I know my opinion won’t be popular but these woman who chose to do what they want…they can in my opinion without derogatory thought.

  12. Sweetest Perfection says:

    “You exist only through the permission and desires of the others. You may think you wield the power, you may think that pleasure, absolute please, joy, ecstasy and delight are within your gift but you are beholden to provide those things because if you do not then you are nothing. You are nothing. Nothing without me.”
    The metaphor is particularly effective because it can be used both ways, as in other articles HG has written where the point of view shifts. It is particularly effective because most empaths, due to their ingrained sense of guilt, will immediately feel alluded to as the whore. Narcs also make you feel like you are one, when it’s them who prostitute themselves for fuel. We don’t depend on fuel for a living. They do. Fuel is their pimp.

    1. Another Cat says:

      SP, me not finding reply buttons but yes, the trousers. My empath dad and I used to listen a lot to Never let me down again, and those very first two seconds, God Almighty intro of a song dammit.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        That song is probably the best song by DM. Not my number one, but objectively the best, probably yes. I bet no one knows my favorite one! Not even HG.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Clearly a tie between Big Muff and Boys Say Go!

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haaaaa hahaha!!!!! What’s Your Name is probably your favorite one!

          2. Rebecca says:

            HG,
            I have DM on my Spotify and I can’t listen to Personal Jesus without thinking of you for two reasons. One is obvious 😆 2 is because of the video of you, on your Instagram account, at DM’s concert and they were playing Personal Jesus. I believe I can hear you singing along in the video. 😁

        2. Another Cat says:

          SP, totally understand. Well, I wonder how you real DM fans can manage to concentrate on the content of HG’s very artistic blog. For me it was recognition of album and song titles first.

          Btw this spring I was at a little concert of Spanish classical music And It Hit Me, as an epiphany, the sound of the tuning of a guitar when coming from the speakers… aha… that’s the same as those very first 3 seconds of Personal Jesus (just before “Reach out, touch fate”). It’s simply the tuning of a guitar.

          Bet you ll keep your favourite a secret. New Life and I Feel You are spectacular in my mind.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AC, New Life is a song that sits very dear to me. I love I Feel You. And of course, I think everyone can recognize PJ instantly at the first chords, I think the whole movie theater did when they released the new documentary in 2019. I recently recovered the vinyl of Songs of Faith and Devotion. Listening to In Your Room through the professional speakers that surround my house was orgasmic (my husband plays different instruments so he has good ones). Most of my vinyls were lost or left behind when I moved to the US (except for the double live album 101, which I gave to a very good friend of mine) so now I am getting them back. 101 was my first album so I started listening to DM a little late. I remember I played it at home and my mom said it sounded like the sound of cans and chains. I fell in love immediately. That was a clue to my favorite song btw.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Sounds so cool that your husband has all that sound equipment, SP, you’re blessed.
            Oh, I don’t really know DM songs or much about albums, when people claim to be init they usually mention Ice Machine as no 1 and Run Like Hell by Pink Floyd, those two songs are far and wide connected, 😉 😉
            But 101 I will check out! I just googled and live albums are generally winners.

            Btw, now I’m reflecting on the guitar in the Studio Session version of Corrupt. Eargasm is a good word for these things yes. Cans and chains? I couldn’t figure out the song. You’re the expert here.

            /The sound lover

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yesterday was the 35th anniversary of the Pasadena concert of 101, by the way! No, I don’t keep track of these things. I have a very good friend who does, he reminded me yesterday and I thought about our thread here. 101 is a superb album, AC, considering the sound quality of live recordings at that time, and my song sounds very different (and much superior) in the live version in this album as opposed to the original one.

        3. Rebecca says:

          SP,

          My favorites are I feel you, It’s No Good, Personal Jesus and Enjoy the Silence. If I had to pick a number 1, it would be, I Feel You.

          1. Another Cat says:

            It’s a beautiful one.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Enjoy the Silence is my favorite one among the four you mentioned. A very good friend shared this little documentary with me last week, I really enjoyed it. https://youtu.be/OGZOVxt6rvw

          3. Viol. says:

            DM played one of the morning shows in NYC once, and a girl in the crowd held a poster reading, “My name is Faith–reach out and touch me.”

            Can we all agree that Muse’s “Uprising” rips off PJ with a vengeance?

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It does but I used to love Muse until I listened to their newly released album (just NOW). It sucks. WHERE IS HG??? HG HG HG! We worry about your YouTube! ♥️

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you. There will be a blog post addressing this very shortly.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh I’m so glad to see you’re ok.

          7. Rebecca says:

            HG,
            I hope YT brings back your channel, been worried since I got the email yesterday. I hope you’re OK. Xx

    2. Another Cat says:

      And with your new black tie avatar image, SP,

      I get the twitches pondering whether it is supposed to be Peter Murphy from Bauhaus.
      Ok, I want it to be him, I admit.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        It’s Patrick Bateman. Peter Murphy is less attractive-and less dangerous, I presume-.

        1. WhoCares says:

          “It’s Patrick Bateman.”

          Ohhh . .I was wondering.

      2. Rebecca says:

        Another Cat,
        I’m glad you like my favorite song by Depeche Mode. I Feel You just speaks to me more than the others and it is musically pleasing too.

        1. Another Cat says:

          Rebecca, I’m rooting for you to find release regarding your personal life.

          Yes, lyrics are mostly a bonus for me, I’m a rhythm and melody person. When he sings that bridge/refrain in I Feel You, I get joyous shivers. You’re right, the sound counts.

  13. mollyb5 says:

    HG ..Male narcs like to visit whores . They’re pissed and feel used when they have to pay. Male narcs feel entitled and want the whore to like them the best …out of all the johns …the narc wants to be the one she falls in love with.

    1. Mollyb5 says:

      Yeh , it can also be …the narc yelling at the empath . Ye the narc usually thinks the pretty empath who gets a lot of attention from other men is a whore or if she flirts or leaves the narc . He feels it’s because she just wants to fuck around . Never because he has done anything wrong or has been fucking around . Oh never .

  14. Tracy Gray says:

    Well , is’nt that the cover calling the page a book ? You’re just jealous because I’m more desirable than you !

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You mean envious.

      1. Emily says:

        Oh so this is literal. You really do despise sex workers? Do you feel envy towards them?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, it is not literal, Christ almighty, use your brain.

          1. Emily says:

            Narcs often use sex workers and do so to emotionally abuse them you could have easily been a customer of one.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed I could have been and yes narcissists do abuse sex workers (as do normals, not all but some).
            This is not about sex workers.

          3. Viol. says:

            Trying to teach word usage and literary personae to the hard of understanding again, HG?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Oh that their fuckwittery would crash upon the edifice of my knowledge and thereon be consigned into oblivion.

          5. FoolMe1Time says:

            Getting your panties in a twist there HG? Hahaha xx

          6. HG Tudor says:

            As you know, I do not wear panties FM1T.

            I wear the trousers.

          7. FoolMe1Time says:

            So says you HG, I’ve only ever seen you in a tangerine bathing suit. You could possibly be wearing panties underneath and we would never know. Hahaha

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Bathing suit?

            Are you stuck in the Victorian age FM1T?

          9. FoolMe1Time says:

            Hahaha! I thought I was speaking your language HG.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thong, probably, as the cheeky free spirit you are.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            No, flip flops are not applicable.

          12. FoolMe1Time says:

            Ok now who’s in the wrong era HG? A thong is not flip flops. Hahaha

          13. HG Tudor says:

            My solid Aussie cousins will tell you that you are wrong.

          14. FoolMe1Time says:

            I am not wrong about the thong, but neither are you HG.

          15. WiserNow says:

            Yes, in Australia, flip flops are called ‘thongs’ (plural – with an s at the end) and a thong (singular – as in underwear) is called a G-string.

            Fun facts: to find out the origin of the name ‘G-string’, I googled it. Apparently, there is no definite knowledge about why these ‘dental floss’ underpants are called ‘G-strings’. It could be because the G stands for ‘groin’. They were introduced in New York in 1939 because of the 1939 World’s Fair. At that time, NYC Mayor Fiorello La Guardia was concerned the city’s fully nude strippers would cause an international scandal. The strippers then came up with a solution and covered up their ‘bits’ with a tiny strip of cloth. Perhaps the strip of cloth was called a G-string in honor of Mayor La Guardia…

            You learn something new here every day.

            Personally, I don’t like G-strings, for men or women. They are so uncomfortable and unflattering too, in my opinion.

            A man in a G-string reminds me too much of a mankini as in Borat-style, and that is totally and objectively wrong.

            …and HG, don’t go wearing thongs under your trunks either – that’s just weird.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            Nobody else has mentioned it, as yet. So, I will. MANKINI. I suppose a thong is far better than having a mankini bringing your balls up to your midriff….

          17. WhoCares says:

            Pahaha!

          18. Asp Emp says:

            Quite. The “fashion” did not quite take off, eh? 😉

          19. WiserNow says:

            …umm… hate to burst your bubble Asp Emp, but I mentioned it more than six hours ago.
            Just so you know 🙂

          20. Asp Emp says:

            It got lost in the mail, it must be the time-zone difference 🙂

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HAHAHAHA!

          22. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing….. nor are the socks, sandals and shorts 😉

          23. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You know FM1T, as long as you remember who’s wearing the trousers…

          24. HG Tudor says:

            I expected you to pick up on that. Jolly good.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Instantly! Haha

          26. Viol. says:

            Sweet-P:

            “Cheeky”?

            Oh, dear.

        2. Another Cat says:

          Emily
          This is what is so special about this blog, I remember from first glances back in 2016, and then 2018. HG writes what the narcissist thinks or says, in devaluation stage, or in golden period stage. This post is obviously about devaluation of a victim, imo. The narcissist is fiercely projecting.

          Sometimes he writes from the victim’s perspective.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated.

          2. annaamel says:

            Hi Another Cat. Your knowledge and insight are appreciated. Are you suggesting it’s the narcissist’s criticism of themselves, which they cannot or would not do (the lower ranks don’t understand it and the upper ranks cannot risk such self criticism which would jeopardise the construct) instead turned outwards and aimed at someone else? Ideally the person they are closest to as it’d be the most satisfying? So when narcissists devalue they critique at least in part based on what they see (perhaps unconsciously) in themselves?

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Are you envious of Tracy then HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No.

          1. Emily says:

            You appear to hate her? At least she was honest, you hire a hooker you know what you are buying?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Nothing to do with hookers.

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I know HG. Just couldn’t resist hahaha

  15. Emily says:

    Im confused are you saying narcissists are whores? Are you calling youeself a whore? Youre payment is fuel?

    1. Rebecca says:

      Emily,
      I believe the article is about empaths and how narcissists see us during the devaluing stage.

      1. Emily says:

        Oh thanks for clarification

      2. A Victor says:

        Hi Rebecca,
        If I remember right, a while back when I was questioning this article, someone said also to look at what we might gain from the relationship. That put a whole new perspective on it for me. There is definitely a symbiotic relationship going on. Thankfully we can stop in on our side and have a healthy relationship if we chose to.

        1. Another Cat says:

          Exactly A Victor

          Many men, esp empaths would Not have reached their prominent positions at work without the fulltime manager of a Manipulator wife.

          Of course.

          She is the one who is booking meetings, pushing him, pushing away all his competition by speaking badly of them to the right people. My country’s former PM is one of these examples. A nice empathic man with a very firm decisive narcissist wife. She is older (she was married, with kids when they met) so he can’t have kids, he has in many interviews expressed very quiet mention of how much he loves her grandchildren.

          She is a boss at our national church. Always stealthily putting in a sneaky bad word about his competitors. Always firmly explains to reporters that she and he never actually did anything wrong.

          This former PM was raised in an orphanage and fosterparents. The narcissist knows how to pick vulnerable or lonely victims.

          But as you say AV, it’s symbiotic. Without her he would never have been PM of a country.

          (though there is always sacrifice, but
          prominent empathic men don’t often notice, the children get messed up, etc)

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Another Cat, thank you for these further thoughts, ones I was unaware of, I really appreciate them!

          2. Another Cat says:

            I think, AV, that most narc women through history had to settle with lifting their husband, not pressing down his career. Instead they control led the children, triangulations and what not. After all, it’s quite a temptation for many men to have a wife taking care of everything, so he could concentrate on his career. At least it feels like it during golden periods. Comfy…

            Once I called an opera singer to book a speech for our local church. He was part of the parish, committed and everything, semifamous baritone.

            His wife answered.
            – What is this about?
            – Well we would like him to hold an evening speech.
            – No you can’t speak with him, he is not home and has many other engagements. He should not hold events now.

            I don’t know if this woman was a narc, but I can’t remember anyone speaking to me like this before or after.

          3. A Victor says:

            AC, I suspect you are correct about most female narcissists through history, it would’ve had to be so. Such an interesting thing to consider also, I had not before.

            They can be really unbelievable, haha, sadly I live with a female narcissist, I absolutely never know what I will encounter in any interaction with her, so I try to just stay away from her. The opera singer’s wife actually does sound like the one I live with! Are you not glad you knew what could be causing it? In the past, pre-narcissism knowledge, I would have been so flustered by that behavior. Not anymore!

          4. Another Cat says:

            Yes you’re right, feels good to have an idea, at least in retrospection! Sometimes the wife is not narcissist, just Polish, Russian or East Asian. They can act like this due to cultural pressure (wife equals tough manager), I have experienced. I mean the guy looks very much like Bryn Terfel, and he has a beautiful soprano empathic daughter, opera solos as well. No matter how much we want to believe that one can be famous and suceed by being kind and have a beautiful voice and work hard,

            most often it’s not so. Contacts and good social circles are needed. The right family/relatives, or a tough manager family member, often a manipulating narcissist. Getting rid of the competition is key, but the victims might not want to see that. They’re superhappy about being famous!

            Gah, I wish you wouldn’t have to share your home with a narc woman, AV, bitsy understandable if it’s your daughter, but I’m guessing not!

            “I absolutely never know what I will encounter in any interaction with her”

            Oh, the most current one is the mother of the children’s schoolfriend. I have to admit she’s quite ok and humorous, but must be hell of confusing to live with, I only meet her when delivering the kids to eachother on playdates.

            Opposes anything you say or suggest, any line, immediately.

            I have learned to deal and plan so that her empathic son can at least spend two consecutive hours with my kids without her calling that he should get home after 20 minutes of being here, the husband often running over here to quickly pick him up.

          5. A Victor says:

            Oh wow AC, you totally get it! “Opposes anything you say or suggest, any line, immediately.” That’s exactly it. So frustrating. It’s my mother. I have been practicing ANC with her for at least a year, very helpful. My son does also, she drives him crazy too. It’s nice that you can have her son over sometimes for a while, I’m sure he needs a break sometimes.

        2. Rebecca says:

          Hi AV,
          I can definitely see the symbiotic relationship at work with my husband and I. I was talking to him yesterday and I tried expressing my feelings and he either cut me off, acted mad about my feelings or he would make a joke about my feelings, dismissing them…and I kept feeling his annoyance, my feelings were annoying him, so I withdrew, stopped talking and partially shut down emotionally. I was left feeling disbelief that he just did that, and then I just felt grief and left the room. My feelings are a problem for him. I’m not allowed to be unhappy and I’m not allowed to voice my emotions. Just shut up, stop talking, stop crying and just look happy, can’t you do that? Can’t you try? Try again, better

          1. A Victor says:

            I am sorry Rebecca, I wish I could help you somehow. It is hard to be in the midst of what you are. I know that you will do whatever you need to do to make things better for yourself, and I know that can take some time. You are in a great place here and HG will help you figure things out. I can’t stress enough how valuable his insight is when we’re in the place you are at this time, dealing with a narcissist every day. Stay strong, it will work out. 💜

          2. Viol. says:

            I try so hard not to get upset
            Because I know all the trouble I’ll get
            Oh, he tells me tears are something to hide
            And something to fear-eh-eh
            And I try so hard to keep it inside
            So no one can hear

            Til Tuesday, “Voices Carry”

          3. WiserNow says:

            On the subject of hiding emotions, it’s interesting that men are generally made to feel they need to hide or repress their emotions. It’s sad to me that men feel the social pressure to do this. It’s irrational too, that if men show emotion they are considered ‘weak’ or ‘sensitive’.

            Sensitivity has a bad – very bad – ‘reputation’, for want of a better word. It’s not ‘weakness’ for a start and there is not just one kind of ‘sensitivity’.

            For example, closed-mindedness and stubbornness are a form of ‘sensitivity’ that is rigid and unmovable in my opinion.

            An unwillingness to accept that someone else’s emotions are valid and real to them is another form of ‘sensitivity’ that is egocentric and biased. It is actually defined in language and word usage as ‘callousness’, however, to the person clinging on to their personal convictions, it is also a fear or inability to open their worldview to other possibilities.

            One of the characteristics of a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) is that they are open-minded and able to see a number of different angles and perspectives of a situation. That is a particular ‘sensitivity’ that is actually not that ‘personally’ sensitive in a social situation. It is open and willing to understand others rather than being closed and insular and ‘sensitive’ to the threat of other opinions.

            Regarding men and emotions, it reminds me of a song at this year’s Eurovision Song Contest. (Yes, I enjoy watching Eurovision. So what? Don’t judge me.)

            Switzerland’s entry in the contest was a song called ‘Boys Do Cry’ by Marius Bear. The song was okay, nothing to write home about though. The interesting thing was that in the voting, the song received 78 points from the judging jury which was relatively respectable considering the overall table of points from the jury. However, the song received a big fat zero votes from the public viewing audience. Not one single, solitary point from people watching the contest.

            I found that quite curious. It wasn’t a garishly bad song. It was reasonably good and Marius had a good voice and delivery. I think there is a very, very long way to go before general public attitudes change about men actually having emotions. It seems to be very clear that men are supposed to be robots who do not cry and are not allowed to cry.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Eurovision is so full of politics, not surprisingly Ukraine won this year. I however ABSOLUTELY ADORED last year’s winners, Italian band Måneskin with their song Ziti e Buoni which I truly liked. It was thanks to the festival that I found out about them. “I’m begging, begging youuuuu!!!!” And Damiano David’s cross dressing drives me crazy.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Eurovision is great. The political element is always there. It was even worse years ago in the 80s and 90s. Back then, you could bet your house on the top points from some countries going to their political allies. For instance, if Lithuania gave Latvia 12 points, you could rest assured that Latvia was going to return the favour.

            I’m glad that Ukraine won this year though – it gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling that people watching voted with their compassion and gave Ukraine the win. It wasn’t such a bad song either, so good for them.

            The irreverence and exuberance of Eurovision are the good things about it. It’s so over the top but in a creative and fun way. It never goes too far so that it strays too much out of ‘family-style’ viewing. You can safely sit back and watch it with grandma, mum, dad and the kids all in the room.

            I like Maneskin too, and their win in 2021 was well-deserved I thought. They came across like an ‘authentic’ rock band and their song was clever and memorable. Most of the other acts generally come across like novelty acts trying too hard to be noticed among a group of other novelty acts.

            I’m glad Australia is in the contest too even though it’s nowhere near Europe. It’s popular here. I think that’s because it’s so entertaining and Aussies like irreverent entertainment that’s good for a laugh. Also, there are many Europeans in Australia too. I think the second largest city after Athens with regard to the number of people with Greek heritage is Melbourne in Australia haha.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Dearest Rebecca,
            I have seen this same interaction between my parents. Leave. My dad has become an expressionless robot that acts like my mom is not even present. Leave. He seems to care about her health when she doesn’t eat enough. I think he just worries he will run out of fuel if she dies. Leave. My father doesn’t talk to my mom at all when they are alone which is most of the year except when I or my sister are visiting. Leave. My mom cannot complain, express sadness, or happiness, and obtain any reaction from him because he is a shell of a human form. Leave. Leave. Leave. Leave. My mom lived at a time when she didn’t have any legal support or financial support to separate from my father. You are young, you have your whole life ahead of you. LEAVE!!!! ❤️

          7. WhoCares says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Your comment brought tears to my eyes.

            I agree with you.

            I am glad I left when I did.
            But I wish I had had this knowledge when I was younger.

            Rebecca – you cannot get back lost time.

          8. A Victor says:

            This is very true WhoCares, we cannot get our time back and it is in limited supply from the beginning. Excellent point.

          9. A Victor says:

            Wow, SP, this is an amazing comment! Thank you for making it. As I read it I thought of my own parents and how my dad was worn down by my mom, the difference being both of them are/were narcs. But he became sick and died ahead of her and I think due very much to the stress of dealing with her for 60 years even as he was a narc. I think his sense of control was so overwhelmed that he couldn’t maintain. Anyway, all that to say that what you write here is so valid, the health effects, the lack of concern about them except as they will affect the prime aims, all so true. There is no good that will come from spending an extra minute in the life of a narc. That is that. Thank you!

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you AC. I was pretty immersed into it as I am just visiting and my parents are a live demonstration of what to avoid marrying into… my mom I suspect is codependent so it’s been years and years of hearing her say she hates my dad, but if you say something she immediately defends him and charges against you. There’s no point now, they’re both old and like I told them today, you chose to live with each other so now you suck it up. Both of you. It still hurts to see my dad’s lack of response to anybody, especially my mom. He also treated the waiter awfully today and I had to apologize for him because I was mortified. Maybe one of those tarantulas Bubbles talks about would make him jump, but I even doubt that. It would be worth the try hahaha.

          11. Leigh says:

            Powerful and poetic! You really have a way words.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you! I’ll let Robert Smith know! Haha

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh I noticed it’s not for the lyrics! Haha Leigh I read your comment in disarray, I thought you were praising the song. WordPress is messing my notifications.

          14. Leigh says:

            Lol! WordPress likes screwing with our heads. I was talking about your comment to Rebecca. Very powerful words. Thank you for sharing it. It resonates with me.

          15. Viol. says:

            WiserNow:

            I’ve got a chip on my shoulder that’s bigger that my feet
            I can’t talk to people that I meet
            If I could see you now
            I’d try to make you sad somehow
            But I can’t, so I’ll cry instead
            Don’t wanna cry when there’s people there
            I get shy when they start to stare
            I’m gonna hide myself away
            But I’ll come back again someday
            And when I do you’d better hide all the girls
            I’m gonna break their hearts all round the world
            Yes, I’m gonna break them in two
            And show you what your lovin’ man can do
            Until then I’ll cry instead

            – Beatles

          16. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I would say I’m sorry
            If I thought that it would change your mind
            But I know that this time
            I have said too much
            Been too unkind
            I tried to laugh about it
            Cover it all up with lies
            I tried to laugh about it
            Hiding the tears in my eyes
            ‘Cause boys don’t cry
            Boys don’t cry
            I would break down at your feet
            And beg forgiveness, plead with you
            But I know that it’s too late
            And now there’s nothing I can do
            So I try to laugh about it
            Cover it all up with lies
            I try to laugh about it
            Hiding the tears in my eyes
            ‘Cause boys don’t cry
            Boys don’t cry
            I would tell you that I loved you
            If I thought that you would stay
            But I know that it’s no use
            And you’ve already gone away
            Misjudged your limits
            Pushed you too far
            Took you for granted
            Thought that you needed me more, more, more
            Now I would do most anything
            To get you back by my side
            But I just keep on laughing
            Hiding the tears in my eyes
            ‘Cause boys don’t cry
            Boys don’t cry

            The Cure, “Boys Don’t Cry.”

          17. WiserNow says:

            SP,

            Another interesting song about boys not showing emotion.

            “Boys don’t cry
            I would tell you that I loved you
            If I thought that you would stay
            But I know that it’s no use
            And you’ve already gone away”

            How much of this is projection, how much is presumptive, how much is just confusing self-deception, and how much is ego-protection?

            “I would tell you that I loved you if I thought that you would stay”. So, does he really love her? Or has he already decided it’s not worth saying the empty words because she won’t stay anyway? How does he know it’s no use? Or does he actually prefer that she doesn’t stay? Is he the one who has actually gone away? Or does he actually know that she is uninterested? Does he really care, but isn’t willing to risk a blow to his ego, because “boys don’t cry”?

            Have they both already tried to recapture their previous ‘love’ and the relationship just fell flat on its face again?

            So many unanswered questions. My brain hurts.

          18. WiserNow says:

            Viol.

            Interesting song. According to Wikipedia, both John Lennon and Paul McCartney said it was entirely written by Lennon even though it’s credited to both of them.

            “If I could see you now
            I’d try to make you sad somehow
            But I can’t, so I’ll cry instead”

            These words sound straightforward enough at face value. However, if a person cannot be made to feel sad, no matter what is done or what happens to “make them sad somehow”, then the only things the other person can do is:
            1. ‘cry instead’; or
            2. distance themselves to avoid feeling painful or unwanted emotions; or
            3. leave.

            If the option to leave isn’t there or isn’t taken, the other two options are to ‘cry instead’ or become distant and unemotional.

            If the context is a mother and baby where the mother cannot be made to feel sad or doesn’t have emotional empathy, the baby can’t leave. Instead, the baby becomes anxious (cries instead) or the baby becomes avoidant (becomes distant and unemotional).

            If you think more deeply about these lyrics, the meaning behind the words can be considered in various ways.

            Initially, I thought it was interesting that if the speaker can’t cry himself, he is going to make as many other people cry instead. That is projection.

            Also, there’s an irony there, because while a narcissist can’t cry outwardly and can’t feel or express emotion, he or she nevertheless spends their life feeling like a victim in some way, or entitled to victimise others.

            Very interesting song Viol. – it’s deceptive in it’s simplicity. Thank you for commenting about it.

          19. WiserNow says:

            …and by the way, I do know the difference between its and it’s … ugh! so annoying when you can’t edit comments after sending them.

        3. Rebecca says:

          HG, AV, SP, WhoCares, AspEmp, Joa, and WiserNow,

          I wanted to update everyone about what’s been going on. I planned on going home this week and discussing things with my Aunts, but personal medical issues kept my family from being able to have me visit. So, I’m still here and I had a long talk with my husband. He’s noticed my withdrawal and wants me to give him a chance to make things better. He said he’d stop belittling me etc, if I’d just let him show me how much he can change. I told him, I already did that. He said, he’ll do it right this time. He begged me and I agreed to give him one more chance. I told him, I would point out each time he belittles me and it won’t be tolerated. He’s been on his best behavior, but I don’t believe it’ll last. It’s just a matter of time and I have to hold out until I can make arrangements with my Aunts. My plan is on hold until then, so I gotta make the most of it. It’s not the best,but I’m safe, I’m OK. He’s being super nice and I’m on guard and paying attention to his signals and body language. I know it’s disappointing and sometimes plans have to be a waiting game. That’s all I have for now. Again, I’m safe. I learned in childhood how to live with a narcissist, that knowledge protects me now. Like I said before, if I need it, I have a safe place to go too.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Rebecca, thanks for sharing this with us. I won’t judge any decision you make. I understand that you want it to work and want to give him a chance. I can only share what I have seen in my family. Of course they are not your family, but narcs always repeat their same pattern of behavior as we have learned here. He won’t change, you already know that, but I also think knowing that, you also hope at least the ultimatum will help the situation tone down and not get as bad as before. The ultimatum followed by a concession only shows him that your threats are empty of purpose, and eventually, he won’t believe you. I have seen my father do this many times and go back to his selfish ways again and again and again and again, at first my mom threatened to leave him, one time she even changed the key lock so he couldn’t get in the house, but the dynamic was like falling in a time loop: he apologized, he promised change; he did well for a short while, he repeated his behavior. After years of this, he didn’t even bother to apologize anymore. It will only end if you want it to end. I support you and truly wish this time it would work although if he’s a narc you know the answer to that. Put yourself first, Rebecca. Always. 😘

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Rebecca, thank you for the update. I read what you wrote about the conversations you have had with him. I understand your decisions, as you say, it’s until you can make the necessary arrangements for yourself RE: your aunts. Just stay safe, and good to know that the ‘safe place’ is still available for you.

          3. A Victor says:

            Rebecca, thank you for the update! I have been wondering how things were going with you and I’m super glad to hear you feel safe even though you’re on guard. I have been there, it is stressful. Hang in there and keep us posted as you can. 💕

      3. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I think In SatN book HG says women are see as a Madonna or a good whore of bad whore. Good whore just means we’re doing what the N wants, bad whore we’re not doing what the N wants and. Madonna as sexless.

        Im a bad whore and proud!

        1. Rebecca says:

          Alexis Smith,
          With me, I get along with most people, narc or not and the only time I have issues is when they’re nasty to me and that goes for narc and not narc. It’s simple, don’t be nasty and I won’t be nasty.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            I agree Rebecca, I did go through a bit of a spell early on when I needed revenge. But it was only in defence or opportunistic, and even then I still injected humour into it – but enjoyed my small wins. I still would if the opportunity arises, but largely I just let them get on with their shit.

        2. Ruth Cain says:

          Slut solidarity! I am very proud to have been called a whore/slut/hoe/’putana di merda’ by a variety of narcissists. Give ’em no shame and if they are low to mid range, watch their brain gears grinding to find a more effective insult.

          1. Contagious says:

            Eleanor Roosevelt said” no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” You nailed it.

        3. Another Cat says:

          Yes, well as narc guys put it:

          A whore is someone who’s been with everyone.
          A Filthy Whore is someone who’s been with everyone but not with me …

          1. Another Cat says:

            Jealousy is their middle name.

      4. Patricia N says:

        I agree, Rebecca. I read the article as being an example of what the narcissist (or at least some of them) might say to their empath during devaluation.

        1. Rebecca says:

          Viol,

          I’m familiar with that song,remember it from childhood. My husband says to me, I don’t bother telling you what to do, you do it your own way, I’ve never seen anyone so stubborn. I can’t even get you to drop it, you keep on until you’re finished. Yup, I have my own voice and I will speak, when I want to. I get advice from friends, who tell me, try not to provoke him, I know how you can get when you get mad. Yeah, I talk back and I got a mouth on me, trust me. I have a mouth and I speak, when I want to. I know how to keep from getting hit and I know where to go, if I do.

          1. Leigh says:

            Rebecca, please use me as a precautionary tale. I’ve been ensnared for 37 years. If I had known what I know now, I would have ran away as fast as I could. Now, my whole entire life is entwined with a narcissist. I know I have to escape and that is the plan but it would have been much easier 25 years ago.

            May I also make a suggestion about provoking him. I too have a mouth on me. I often don’t know how to shut it. Until I read a comment that, Mr. Tudor made. To paraphrase Mr. Tudor, every time you react to the narcissist, whether its negative or positive, you validate their existence. When I read that comment, I realized I would no longer participate in validating their existence.

            I hope you’ll be ok.

        2. Rebecca says:

          Patricia,
          The narc I knew from last year was LMRSomatic and when he was devaluing me he made comments about my age, which he was older than me and I’m not old….and my body, ok, so I’m small, big deal, so what…he was being a jerk…and he definitely didn’t have grounds to call me whore….he was a coworker…and I can honestly say, I don’t know how I would react if he had called me that…not a good reaction, I know that much….yeah, it’s best not to say…I’m just glad things didn’t go that way…Midrangers are passive aggressive cowards anyway….he probably whined, to whomever would listen, about how mean my words back to him were….HG, says it best….how does it go? ….yellowbellied…something about little balls….whinning crybabies…. 😆🤣 Funny af!

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