Knowing the Narcissist : The Key To Entry




With the brief injunction from my mother to ensure I spoke up or suffer the consequences I returned to the consulting room of Dr M. We took our seats and he smiled before adjusting his suit trousers, pulling them up at the thigh. I cast a quick glance to his nether regions but no hole had yet emerged.

“Now Mr Tudor, we did not make much progress last week. It is of no concern. I wondered if you perhaps felt more amenable to speaking with me on this occasion?”

I started to nod and then spoke.

“Very well.”

“Excellent. What would you like to talk about?” he asked.

“Why am I here as in why am I sat in your consulting room,” I clarified before he started providing me with some smart alec response as to the meaning of my existence. I knew why my family had insisted that I see Dr M and more recently underline the necessity of speaking to him, but I wanted to know what he thought. That way I would be better prepared to deflect him.

“Why do you think you are here with me?” he answered casually. Marvellous. He was one of those people who answered a question with another question.

“I asked first,” I pointed out. He nodded.

“Your family are concerned about you.” I snorted which seemed to take him by surprise.

“Those bastards only care about themselves.”

“Why do you say that?” asked Dr M seizing on my remark.

“It does not matter, go on, you were saying.”

“Your family are concerned about you. I met with them and they provided me with background information. I am aware that you are a high achiever and have always been so. Your family are concerned however that you stop at nothing to get what you want, that you have disdain for most people and you leave a trail of carnage in your wake. I think that is a succinct way of putting it. They want me to discuss this with you and to receive my opinion.” he explained.

“It’s bullshit all of it,” I remarked. My voice was low but the venom was tangible. Dr M remained silent.

“I have no idea what they are talking about. I stop at nothing to get what I want? They have never complained about my achievements before. They don’t like it that I am outshining them. That is the problem here. They always do this. Try and make their problems my problems, I am sick and tired of it. I have forged my own path and done bloody well too and all they want to do is bring me down. It is jealousy. That’s why I have little to do with them. Did they tell you that? I bet they tried to make out that I am aloof and never attend family gatherings didn’t they? They never invite me to them. I keep in touch most with my younger brother and he tells me about these gatherings and I always find out after the event. Did my younger brother speak to you?”

Dr M nodded.

“Who else?” I asked.

“Both your parents, your sister, your younger brother and your cousin, Charlotte.”

“Huh, the usual cabal. All of them are liars. Do you have any idea what it is like having to put up with all of them? My god it is a wonder that I am a success. My mother is always trying to pin the blame for her shortcomings on me. She would love to plant a microchip in my head and control me. That would be ideal for her. She has controlled my father for years. He isn’t a bad fellow really but he fell under her spell and believes anything she says and if he dares not to well let’s just say he has suffered the consequences too many times before so he has learned his lesson. It’s weak of him and I hate him for being like that. He should stand up to her rather than be her metaphorical punching bag. Always tries to keep the peace at first and then takes her side. He is brainwashed and my sister is just as bad. Jesus she always defers to my mother, but then she could never make a decision for herself. So Charlie has weighed in as well has she? Do you know why doctor M? It is because she wants me for herself and I won’t let that happen. Bet they did not tell you that did they? She is totally in love with me and because I have rejected her this is how she goes about paying me back by making up lies about me. I would not put it past that harpy to try and section me you know. You don’t want to believe anything that lot say to you.”

Dr M was jotting down the odd note as I spoke. Yes, make some notes Dr M and you can tell them what I think of them. How dare they? How bastard dare they make out like I am the one with the problem. I should be used to it by now but it still infuriates me. I stood up, agitated at this unwarranted attack on me.

“This is what they always do doctor. I am the one who was suffered at their hands. Years of it but they twist it around and try to pin the blame on me. I have made the best of a bad hand and they cannot stand to see me doing well so they conjure up this. Liars the lot of them.”

I was pacing up and down in front of the fireplace and fighting to resist the urge to grab one of the logs and hurl it at the large mirror which hung above the fireplace.

“I wish they were all dead doctor, you have no idea. The times I have wished that they would get wiped out in some car accident or a building falls on them when they are inside. They have made my life hell and just as I am pulling free of them they pull this stunt. I hate them. I am surprised at my brother joining in with this as well, I thought he had some sense.”

“Your brother expressed considerable concern about you and wants to help you,” offered Dr M.

“I don’t need any help. I suggest you fill your sessions with them. You will have plenty of material for your shrink times or whatever publication you write for. My mother is a control freak with a drink problem,my father is spineless, my sister is a professional victim oh yes, ask her about her failed marriage but make sure you have the bleeding heart and violins to hand. My cousin, well as I said, she is a lecherous nymphomaniac and as for my brother, he has gone down in my estimation joining this cabal of perfidy.”

I spat the words out as I waved my arms around, windmilling through the air. I felt a little better for this explosion of annoyance and I returned to my seat and sat down. Dr M was still writing.

“So Dr M there really is nothing to see here. I know you will want to make some money from us and I respect that, you are like me, you see an opportunity and exploit it. Nothing wrong with that. Let me give you a tip. You need to suggest working with those liars and parking your involvement with me. You have nothing to achieve here but as for them, well you will make a fortune sorting out the quagmire that is their lives.”

I sat back and smiled as Dr M continued to write. I had spoken up just as she had urged. I had done as I was told. Again. This time though I was fighting back.

479 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcissist : The Key To Entry

  1. Candied Pansy says:

    Hi Rebecca, it’s cruel your mother and brother said you were mean and selfish. Narcissists do see it as selfish for you to defend yourself. My dad’s done it to me. HG said Carrier has limits to what it tolerates, unlike Martyr, so I see Carrier and Savior protecting you. We need to save ourselves. Also, stressors temporarily erode emotional empathy and your narcissistic traits come to the fore. It’s gross your brother smeared you to your husband. I’m sorry you had family convinced and convincing you that you were mean to fight back. Did your dad protect you? Having a psychopath child must feel futile. Having HG confirm your brother as a psychopath must explain a lot.

    The false flag thing is for me. I have to clear it w/ HG alone. I don’t doubt your empathy. You show a lot of it and self-reflection. I’m sorry I caused you to doubt, or encouraged your tendency.

    You’ve had a few consultations w/ HG. If his consultations and information prove true and helpful, then you can trust your results. As HG said, the proof of a pudding is in the eating. I haven’t had consultations beyond EDC. Maybe if I do, I’ll accept my results and not “help” you doubt yours. I bet that if you took EDC 3 times and get the same schools and cadres, w/ percentage changes, then what you get is who you are. What I got seems accurate to me, and if what HG describes in your results rings true to your life, you’re fine.

    I think CoD makes you feel you need someone else’s approval, like we need HG’s. There’s the narcissist addiction. I forget that narcs don’t ruminate. We keep worrying. HG said that empaths self-flagellate. I like his “am I a narcissist” video. Narcs are sure they’re empaths (or just “right”), yet empaths worry about being narcs.

    You know what’s helping me? Harry’s wife! Are you a shameless, corrupt greedy bully w/ grandiose delusions? No! Would you make up a car chase and smirk for it bc you’re such a half-ass, arrogant craptress you can’t or won’t commit? No! Would you think that roast chickening your way into a royal family, then chickening out when you can’t control them, qualifies you to have your critics silenced and run a country? No! Do you bully someone and call them mean if they defend themselves? No. You’re not your mother, brother, husband, step-daughter, HW, Taylor Swift, Dee Dee Blanchard, Trump, the Clintons, etc. If you’re a narc, HW is an empath.

    You don’t have to respond to this (please do if you like, but I have a hard time seeing when to end a thread). I wanted to respond, and apologize for causing or encouraging doubt. I’m grateful HG gives us all this opportunity to learn from him and each other, and that we use it.

  2. Jordyguin says:

    WiserNow, Leigh

    Thank you for the further points on Martyr.

    An aware sacrifice is also not what I think is taking place…(in extreme cases)

    !Good point regarding the origin of the word! And:
    „the persecution or ‘sacrifice’ is borne out of the way the martyr is treated rather than the martyr’s own beliefs.“

    Probably two variants.
    1) A Martyr against his/her will.
    2) A “free choice” Martyr.
    And here I think religion or cult is where an „aware“ Martyr (assassin/sacrifice of own life for a „good“ cause) would take place. Empaths would present a potential target for this radical groups and the final action. I would think, but I’m not sure. I can’t imagine a normal, a narcissist or narcissistic would become a Martyr, but..? HG talked about Brian Laundrie (Gabby Petito case) and how he would have regarded his suicide as the ultimate achievement of control, so… Probably even narcissist would present or might be found in this category.

    1. WiserNow says:

      You’re welcome Jordyguin.

      Your comment dissecting the motivations and variants of the martyr are intriguing.

      My thinking is that the personal beliefs of someone who becomes a ‘martyr’ (whether aware or not; or an empath or narcissist) will be shaped by the person’s environment. I think environment and circumstances have a lot to do with it, especially in relation to how the environment affects aspects of the martyr’s personality.

      The ‘environment’ I’m thinking of in more specific terms could be: cultural and social conditioning; the degree of family influence on personal beliefs; socioeconomic conditions; and/or the degree to which a person buys into and accepts a belief system like religion or politics or the military or sport or business, etc.

      In an environment where, say, sporting achievement is a family’s main interest, the children in the family will be immersed in this belief system and will naturally accept that this is the way the world works, since the children would not know of another ‘system’.

      Say one child in this sporting family develops a talent for a sport. This talent is then nurtured (or groomed) and as the child matures, his or her focus is maintained on this sport.

      If the child’s personality is empathic for example, the child may want to practice for long hours to achieve results that will be regarded favourably by the family and community. If the child is narcissistic, the child may want to practice for long hours for the glory of winning and being a champion. The environment influences the child and in turn, the child’s personality influences the environment.

      My example is one of a family, but the circumstances could be those of a cult that acts as a family.

      I think that narcissists could also be found in this category.

      To me, your question whether Brian Laundrie regarded himself as a martyr doesn’t really resonate. Laundrie was hiding and on the run after committing a crime. He killed himself to escape the scrutiny of the law and the public. There was no personal quest or aim or ideal involved. I think Laundrie was the antithesis of a ‘hero’, whereas I think the motive behind the actions of a martyr are to strive towards something that is heroic in nature.

      1. WiserNow says:

        *Your comment dissecting and ….. *is* intriguing.

        **…whereas I think the motive behind the actions of a martyr *is* to strive toward something heroic in nature.

        (When I re-read my comments, grammatical errors and superfluous words jump out. Nevertheless, I shall press on.)

      2. Jordyguin says:

        WiserNow, hi!

        Oh yes, Laundrie, his motives were different… I’m thinking in connection to suicide as a means of ultimate control (as it was the reason for Laundrie) might be the same for a suicide bomber in a case of a narcissist. Along the lines of martyrs suicide terrorism “martyrdom operations” (middle east and other countries) where suicide would be a form of control, glorification. I wonder what those people most likely would be? Narcissist, narcissistic, normal, empath? And under what hypnosis (driver, belief, logic) each?

        I saw a report a while ago (french TV Arte Chanel) on how children and teens were recruited for those purposes in the Middle East, and how adults and teens were recruited in US and Europe… The role of ‘environment’, as you mentioned, would be the main factor. (but I of course now think; the other main factor would be the predisposition/susceptibility for manipulation)

        One of my relatives had a situation in school where his classmate was recruited via online games platform, for a school assassination and was detected before he could execute it.
        The thing with the boy was; he was an intelligent, nice, normal boy. He was not bullied or had any (visible) other motive to do that. This fact dumbstruck everybody who knew him. But the person who recruited him, somehow detected his potential for that. You know when they chat and talk during games, so he’d form a gamer unit and get to know him etc. The recruiter couldn’t be tracked back. The boy was put in mental care upon the discovery.
        I would think online games could be also tests. The data could be read and analysed, just as any data of our online behavior/history and open a door to whatever nature of manipulation.

  3. A Victor says:

    Hi NA,

    Again I respond to a comment from you to someone else. And again hope, even though you’ve reassured me in the past that it’s okay, that it’s really okay. This is one of those times in the past when I would’ve apologized. So still an improvement.

    Fwiw, I have never thought you were a narc. I have thought you try to use logic and sometimes may think that to use any softness may dilute what you’re trying to say, and you may be right. Realizing you did not ask my opinion, it is not intended to be hurtful in any way.

    Anyway, I agree that this is not a place to take sides, though it does happen. I don’t count anyone as a friend unless they’re someone I know personally, not only from a public blog.

    The balanced approach toward our own reactions and toward other people, until we see a reason to withdraw, is the best approach. I think all of us could say your final paragraph.

    I do want to thank you for your comments here to Leigh, I also was able to take something from them, something big and really helpful, and I do appreciate that a lot.

  4. Candied Pansy says:

    AV, I saw both replies and will reply in this one, July 7.

    The EDC would be junk if HG sent false flag results. I agree; normals wouldn’t benefit from a false empath result, but narcs would. I bet mid rangers are furious when told they’re not empaths. HG’s false empath video rings a bell. I fear I’m a false flag “empath” (sorry HG, I check my results daily). I didn’t need to be an empath, just to not be a narcissist, but people vary.

    Some narcs get told they’re narcs. HG spoke to a narcissistic client on his 100k series. #15.

    HG and Doug of Dazed but not Confused discuss it. It’s on Doug’s youtube. “Empath Detector: Am I a Narcissist or Empath? | HG Tudor Interview : Part 7”.
    12:11 Some narcs show on EDC that they’re empaths, but HG knows they’re narcs. False flag.
    24:27 Some narcs get told “narc”, but does he tell every false flag empath “narc”?

    HG said his verified narcs still consult w/ him, which surprises me. I’d be too wounded. He’s told me narcs get told they’re narcs, but we didn’t get into the false flag issue!

    1. Leigh says:

      Thank you for this information! I knew I heard it somewhere!

    2. AV says:

      I was told not an empath, a long time ago and it’s been changed apparently. Thanks for the update CP.

      1. Rebecca says:

        “Not empath” doesn’t mean narc, it could mean, just Normal. Xx

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi Rebecca, yes, that was my understanding also. Not an empath was an umbrella term for all outcomes except empath, including false flag. But either I misunderstood it, or it has changed. Thanks! 🙂

    3. Leigh says:

      HI CP,
      I’m going to make one more suggestion. Maybe take the trait detector next. Knowing your traits will help you understand yourself better. It will help you to see that you’re a bundle of traits – narcissistic and empathic. In your every day actions, you’ll be able to see when you’re using those traits. That will help you to see that you’re more empathic than narcissistic. You’ll be able to say, “I see my truthseeker coming out or I see my pride rearing its ugly head.” It will make a world of difference for you.

      I promise, you’re not the only one who questioned the EDC results. I remember thinking I tricked it somehow. I think if you get the trait detector done and start seeing your traits in action, you won’t question the results as much.

      1. Rebecca says:

        Hi AV and Leigh,

        I figured I’ll put my EDC results here, since I got permission to give it by HG. I’m allowed to give the schools and cadres, please don’t ask for percentages of each. Xx

        I’m a Standard Triple Hybrid Empath. My Schools are Codependent, Standard and Contagion.

        My Cadres are Savior, Geyser and Carrier.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi Rebecca,
          I couldn’t retake it, I’d get the same results with only maybe a slight difference on any given day. Good job honing in on your results!

          1. Rebecca says:

            Thanks AV,

            My Schools and Cadres stayed the same, just the percentages changed and I see me more now in the results, worth it to me to get that clarity and relation. Xx

        2. Leigh says:

          Thank you for sharing Rebecca. Those are my cadres also. No CoD for me.

    4. Jordyguin says:

      Pansy, hey!

      „I fear I’m a false flag “empath” (sorry HG, I check my results daily). I didn’t need to be an empath, just to not be a narcissist, but people vary.“

      Pansy, if this is still the case, in The Standard Empath video, HG mentioned:

      9:30 „A majority standard empath finds that their day-to-day behavior is governed by this emotional empathy and occasionally by a safeguarding cognitive empathy. Not a false empathy in away that a narcissist operates…“

      9:58 „Emotional empathy is not fixed. It is therefore subject to the vagaries of life. And therefore as a consequence of external stressors it can be reduced. Should the empathic individual be unwell, be fatigued, experiencing stress at work, financial pressures, loneliness, where they might find themselves in circumstances where they’re being harassed and commonly as a consequence of being abused, their emotional empathy reduces. It is not a permanent state of affairs. It causes a reduction which then means that their various narcissistic traits come to the fore and cause that individual to temporarily not act with standard empathy but instead be governed by their narcissistic traits with eroded emotional empathy.“

      Maybe you are witnessing this occasional states and it causes the questioning of yourself.
      Also, since you have the majority Martyr in your configuration, you may be extra critical of yourself. The religious aspects you wrote about, the imposition of guilt or where you must be wrong or at fault in general. Geyser will add the emotionality.
      Contagion school (1) heighten the sensitivity on how you feel (negative/positive) whilst in a high or low emotional state and (2) also allowing the witnessing of yourself when external stressors may reduce your emotional empathy. This all may reinforce self criticism i.e. painting yourself in a particular light, hence you don’t recognise yourself as being an empath.

      A lower echelon narcissists can’t do that consciously, I dare say. A higher echelon narcissist can describe intellectually ’how it suppose to sound/ look/ feel like’ without being affected by it. But a higher echelon narcissist wouldn’t be here and communicate about this things in such manner to begin with.

      Narcissistic or Normal? Though I can’t imagine normals „suffering“ from various empath’s „problems“, since it would be contrary to their ’normality’ where they simply get on with life more pragmatically, perhaps some of them would be here if it would correlate with their profession or where it would affect them personally (someone close to them involved) or such like.

      There were comments on the blog from a policeman (a normal) and he shared how HG’s work helped him understand the cases and the dynamics he witnessed due to his profession and that he preferred being a normal rather than an empath, especially upon witnessing so many abusive dynamics where the addiction of the victims was clearly visible to him but not to the victims. He was content being a normal and not being affected by emotions on such a degree as empaths.

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hey Jordy! When I submit this comment (July 20), I still fear I’m false flag.

        Thank you for sharing the standard empath video. If I’m one, the video would explain a lot, particularly what you emphasized. If not, I’m delulu like harry’s wife.

        9:29 Occasionally having a safeguarding cognitive empathy is true, if I’m empath, or it’s mid-range cognitive empathy.

        9:58 I don’t have good cognitive empathy, but do I have emotional empathy? Is it fake, or reduced? Do I feel guilt, or false contrition? I’m isolated and depressed, but narcissists get depressed and “rot” too.

        If empath, Martyr explains why I’m a self-critical doormat and paranoid I’m “bad”. Yes, Geyser would make emotions stronger. It’s that, or mid-range sensitivity.

        Small contagion may heighten my sensitivity. Contagion often feels others’ feelings as their own and gets overwhelmed. I think HG said it’s rare for small contagion minority. I was more sensitive when young and grew what I call a “depression blanket” to make my dad’s temper tantrums more distant. There were times I’ve been around people’s emotions, in real life and seeing films, and felt overwhelmed with upset (like grief if one lost a beloved pet), despite not always having the same experiences.

        1) Maybe contagion heightens sensitivity to how I feel. This false flag is a stressor. 2) I look at things I’ve done and said, and cringe. At times I thought something was ok, or someone wasn’t upset, and I was wrong. Maybe you’re right that witnessing oneself, when external stressors reduce emotional empathy (or after said stressors end), will reinforce self-criticism. I’ve always been at least low-key stressed about my dad.

        A lower echelon lesser narcissist has some understanding, but won’t pretend to care. That’s what makes mid-rangers hard to see. Their cognitive empathy can be low or look real. Yes, a higher echelon greater narcissist can describe and see intellectually how empathic experiences are, sans feeling affected. Greaters don’t care, unless they do work like HG, or other jobs where it pays to discuss such things.

        I don’t think Normals, like Prince William, suffer from empath problems like addiction to a narcissist. They have some emotional empathy, but get on with life, as you said. I’m sure HG’s work helps many normals, like the cop you described, understand the people they encounter. Empaths can have amazing experiences, and much suffering. I see why a Normal wouldn’t want to be an empath, when they see empaths suffer.

        Thank you for trying to help me, Jordy.

        1. Rebecca says:

          Hi Jordyguin and Candied Pansy,

          I feel for your self doubt Candied Pansy, I often reflect on my own behaviors and worry, but like Jordyguin said, stressors can affect your empathy levels and it may make you feel you’re being mean, as you self reflect later. I’ve done this on several occasions and I just have to think, if I wasn’t an empath, HG would tell me. Why would he tell me a lie about the results? HG doesn’t have a reason to lie about that.
          Jordyguin, I find your knowledge about the schools and cadres very impressive. The way you describe how they work to cause more self doubt in the empath, was eye opening. I’m a Majority Standard Triple Hybrid empath and I have emotional empathy and safe guard empathy, and I’m aware of when I think about my behaviors and how they affect people, so I self adjust, to take in account someone else’s feelings, I catch myself being frustrated and hold back my tongue, so I don’t hurt them with my words. I’ll sooth, when I see someone hurting and reach to comfort them. I feel people’s pain at times, especially strong, as well as happiness and fear. It happens, when it happens, sometimes it comes out of nowhere and bam, I feel sadness and grief at a Vets office and someone just lost their friend. I have Standard, Codependent, and Contagion Schools. My Cadres are Savior, Geyser and Carrier. I’m a triple hybrid in both. Sorry, if I’m intruding on your conversion. Xx Hope you both are well xx

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Pansy💕Rebecca (no you’re not intruding, silly💕mwa)!
            I think here is how one can test if they are a narcissist or not: Narcissists need Fuel on a DAILY basis i.e. they need daily interactions with other people, of any kind (direct interactions or calls and texting). Now, can you be ALONE for days or weeks or months and feel comfortable without other people and their reactions about you, about what you say or do? Fuel is; reactions of other people based on what you say and do, and if there is no existing need to receive reactions, bagged up by actions in order to receive reactions, and you’re comfortable in being alone and not receiving reactions — it would be a hint of not being a narcissist.
            Narcissist basically can’t live a day without other people and their reactions i.e. fuel provision.

            But I totally can understand the doubts, and how similar narcissists and empaths may appear, and due to what, and the examples you mentioned! But as we know – the driver behind it would be different and the all time hunger, the search and the hunt for Fuel via interactions with other people who are the Fuel provision sources, must be constantly present in the case of the narcissist. If this aspect is missing and you can live and be without other people for days and weeks and feel fine without falling in to a Fuel Crisis, you have your answer.
            Unless you’re an empath in a depression crisis and would mistaken it for the Fuel Crisis. Thus:
            Pansy, regarding isolation and depression, I think it has to do with the weight of your Martyr upbringing where your sense of self was partly destroyed, as you mentioned previously, hence the confusion and worries of being „bad“ and subconsciously and consciously seeking confirmation for being „bad“.
            You’re not bad (*slap-slap*). You’re Candied Pansy!🌸💕🍯

          2. Candied Pansy says:

            Hi Rebecca,

            I’m sorry you also experience self-doubt and worry. It’s good to reflect on our behaviors, but some of us overdo it, especially certain schools and cadres. Stressors can make us act different. It’s hard to look at my old actions or feelings, even current ones, and not go, “What if that’s the real me?” We all have narcissistic traits. Even if you use logical thinking, you can still catch emotional thinking and feel “mean”, like you said.

            When I did EDC, I thought HG told us what we truly were. Then I heard the false flag thing. He wouldn’t lie to you, but what if he let ME lie?

            Jordyguin has read and understood a lot of HG’s work on empaths, to have such a handle on which schools and cadres have certain effects. I appreciate her explanations too, and HG putting it out there.

            *HG, may I have permission to tell Rebecca we have the same schools, majority school, and 2/3 cadres? Thank you.*

            We have the same schools, majority school, and 2/3 cadres.

            I do much of what you described, like adjusting myself to others. Safe guard empathy is a muzzle! Re: your outcome, it’s no wonder you adjust yourself to not hurt others, and feel compelled to soothe people’s hurt (standard safeguard empathy, contagion feels others’ feelings, savior wants to help, carrier takes a burden). Contagion + geyser = intense emotions. My contagion is small and rare, but autism could be a factor. I’m saving for an assessment.

            You’re not intruding, and I bet Jordy will agree. Thank you for sharing. I always enjoy when you reply. I’m okay, and hope you’re well. 🙂

          3. Rebecca says:

            Hi Jordyguin and Candied Pansy,

            Part of my self doubting is from my past behavior, during stressful times for me and my childhood from my mother and brother telling me I was mean and selfish. My brother even told me husband, when he asked him about dating me. My brother told him, ” It’s up to her to decide that. She’s mean, you don’t want to date her. ” it’s funny to hear, but he honestly thought I was mean because I’d defend myself against him and give him back some of his own crap. Hearing things like that, made me question who I was and who I am. I see how stressors can make the meaness come out in me, what part that is, maybe my Savior and Carrier working together to put a stop to the abuse on me? I’m guessing here.. He didn’t like me fighting back, so namecalling was his weapon of choice against me. The fist fights between us stopped when we were children, so he couldn’t hit me and not have serious consequences for him. Our dad already seemed to barely tolerate him. Half the time, they fought, dad would want to wack him in the head with something. My dad could show some temper, when poked enough, like me, he would erupt. I can remember a few times, my dad chasing my brother around the car, with my dad holding up a tool to hit him with. It’s kinda comical now to picture, but it wasn’t funny at the time. Thankfully, my dad didn’t reach him and no one was hurt, but my brother LOVED to antagonize my dad, mother and me, to the point that my dad and I would snap on him. He would laugh and feel satisfaction from making us blow up. I felt his glee of satisfaction on more than one occasion. The ND I did on my brother came back Psychopath, so now I get a bigger picture of HG, through dealing with my brother, but I still know, they’re not exactly the same. I understand more of where HG is coming from, but I still have more to learn.

            It scares me to think my EDC isn’t the real me, that I’m a false flag empath, but I’d hope that HG would tell me that. Why would he lie about that, or not tell me? It really brings me feelings of anguish and uncertainty about myself. I feel like I know myself, but then I have times of doubt still. I’ve taken the EDC three times now, and all that changes is the percentages, so what does that tell me?? That my Schools and cadres are who I am. I don’t think a false flag empath would keep getting the same Schools and cadres, right?? HG?? CP?? Jordyguin??
            Why can’t I be confident in myself?? Is it my Codependent part, that leads me to doubt myself?? 🤔
            I wish I knew these answers. Xx
            Looks like a discussion for a Consultation, HG. I need that answer, HG. I need it. Xx

          4. Rebecca says:

            I meant to add, thank you both so much, Jordyguin and Candied Pansy, for answering my questions and helping me see more. I appreciate you both and thanks HG for moderating, your hard work and for that brilliant, unique, fascinating mind of yours, that gives us all such a great knowledge and understanding of so much that haunts us and keeps us up at night. You’re truly a gift to us and so special and you know I’m not bullshitting you here. My deepest thanks to you! Xx ❤️ ❤️

          5. Jordyguin says:

            Hi dear! (The mystery WordPress…I saw your reply just now)

            First of all, thank you for the insight to your upbringing and the dynamics! The self doubting was sewed in the formative years and robbed you of developing a stable confidence at that time. I wouldn’t say that you don’t have it though. Perhaps you changed much more than you think, but didn’t notice😘 The changing percentage is interesting!! I assume it changes in accordance of what you most need at the particular time in order to „fight“, to continue to move forward. Every school and cadre has a strong and a weak side, so it’s very interesting how they play together and what sides they may reinforce.

            Also remember, each time you’re in the very close dynamic with an N (partner, parent, friend) their mere presence will impact on you and trigger those imprinted emotional states and reactions which you used to have when you daily faced your parent and sibling and other N’s who naturally surrounded you outside of the home setting, as well. Plus having a contagion aspect would have impacted on facing the energetic (draining) pressure of the specific N/P-individuals, which made it also difficult to FIND to yourself, your own feeling, knowledge and an assurance of self.

            We developed in the shadow of individuals who were very different to us, mentally, energetically and emotionally. Their logic and patterns fogged on different levels. We failed to build up an effective protection or maybe had it but in a more or less dormant state. Remained with the empathic traits and a dosage of confusion on how to BE ourselves amongst the contradictions we faced every day around us.

          6. Rebecca says:


            Yes, I can see you’re right. My self confidence isn’t stable. I’m confident around people, who make me feel good, like HG during Consultation. I find I feel more self confident around HG, at times….if HG wants me to feel self confident, I feel confident.. I pick up on his tone of voice and adjust myself to HG’s mood, or projection of his mood. I believe HG knows this and test me, but I could be wrong and I’m just sensitive to his tone of voice.
            The whole test for being a narc.. I like alone time, time in nature, on my runs, they’re so special to me and essential to my mental health right now. I wish I could get more alone time,but my job, I’m around people the whole work day, so I can’t be alone during work. I try, I move away from people, but they come around me and ask me questions, need help, and just want to laugh and chat with me. Apparently they seek me out and want my input, when I try to be alone, for a break, they come around and ask me, “you ok?” “Anything wrong?” “Anything I can help you with?” And they’ll even give me assistance when I don’t need it or ask for it. They’re being helpful and kind, but I also think, they’re keeping me in their sights….sphere. I wish I could test if I could go a week without people , not possible for me. I live with a narc and work around narcs. I can’t do the test you spoke of. I can only relay on HG’s analysis of me and he said empath. Fake flag empath? HG hasn’t mentioned that to me. Xx
            Thanks for your reply Jordyguin, I do enjoy your insight, it helps me further my knowledge and helps me see my true reflection and not what my mother and brother tried to paint me to be. Xx

          7. Jordyguin says:

            I see, I see :)) You don’t need the alone-test for establishing if you’re an empath though, lol! You’re an empath, but you may need the alone-time for you, just for the sake of it. Just to start to experience how good it feels to be out of reach for all the people who constantly surround you and want something from you. You may start by booking a weekend trip just for yourself. Or is it impossible in your situation?

          8. Rebecca says:


            I just got your comment notice. I’d like to go away for the weekend, just me, sounds freaking delightful, but I’m going to have to postpone that idea. Waiting on news about the funeral arrangements for my Aunt. A trip I’m not looking forward to and I was thinking on this earlier. The last time I saw her, last year, I felt it was going to be the last time. I felt her spirit being weak and she was so tired….I hugged her extra long and told her I loved her very much. She knew I loved her, in the end I hope it comforted her, like her love comforted me. She was a sweet , caring wonderful woman. I’m glad and fortunate enough to have known her and have her in my life. She left a mark in my life and her absence left a hole in my heart. Xx Sorry for the melancholy, wish I was seeing her again. Xx
            I’ll keep your idea in mind. I definitely think I owe myself some more alone time. I’ve been alone all day, being home on bereavement and except for my sorrow, it’s nice to have some quiet and alone time. I hope you’re well and happy. Xx

          9. Rebecca says:

            Thanks Jordyguin for your reassurance of me being an empath. This whole false flag empath thing got me doubting myself again. I’m pretty sure HG would have told me by now, if I came up false flag empath, at least I hope he would…..xx

  5. NarcAngel says:

    Victim is such a generic catch-all. Sure, shit was perpetrated against me, but that term never sat well. When I arrived here and obtained HG’s excellent book Sitting Target, I found Target to be accurate and have since adopted his term.

    1. Rebecca says:

      Hi NA,

      I like your thinking here, target is a good word to use. Victim, sounds so final and fatal, like murder victim. I don’t feel it’s time to throw in the towel and give up, so victim I am not. It’s not final until the nail drives into the coffin and my eyes close for good. However morbid that might sound, sounds better than giving up, at least life was taken, not thrown out.

    2. A Victor says:

      I see HG use both terms and I see them as two different things. I can change from being a victim, which makes me feel successful, I cannot change from being a target, which I can at times find defeating. But that’s just another opinion. I think it is whatever works for each individual for their freedom.

      1. Leigh says:

        My mind is blown right now, lol! If you haven’t figured it out yet, I loathe the word victim, lol. You make a really good point, though. We can change and overcome being a victim. But we can’t change that we’re a target. I think I’m sticking with survivor. Leigh W*** Narc Survivor.

        1. A Victor says:

          How about even “Thriver”? 🙂

          1. Leigh says:

            I like that too!

          2. Jalleh Doty says:

            Yeah, I like that that, ‘Thriver’ Its more positive and better than victim or a target, where we shouldn’t continuously go into that mode. 😉

    3. Contagious says:

      I don’t like victim or target as I see it as an even playing field once you are educated. Thanks HG. And I think construction is better than destruction for ourselves and this world. I am not saying that psychopaths or narcs don’t have an overall advantage by stepping in anyone in their path BUT empaths create longevity built by bonds and trust and love and if happiness is the goal in life they win. Every time we feel satisfied with what we have, we can be counted rich however little we possess. I am not saying become a Buddhist monk but I am saying if “ wealth and power” are the definition of success there are empaths and narcs who achieve it and I would say the empaths are the ones that have it all if that exists. But for the 98% the reality is you are better off being an empath for happiness sake as you don’t need fuel. You have the fuel within you. And when we die it will be the love and personal relations we think of and not anything else as nothing else will matter. Then there is the “after” and despite who you are and what religion or no religion you have as a betting person, who does better in the after? Shield and swords up fellow empaths. We might get ensnared but once free, the world is a better place with us in it. They don’t call it “ Mother Earth” or “ Mother Nature” for no reason:)

  6. Candied Pansy says:

    HG you rascal, getting my EDC done SO FAST! *blushes at HG spending the day roasting me* Bad news for y’all, I’m an empath (but really HG? some of my answers weren’t nice). I wasn’t going to open the email, but the fact that there were 3 !!! tipped me off. Thanks for spending time on me, HG and everyone. It looks like I’ll be taking more of it. Writing this June 30.

    Happy empath-ing! No I didn’t sleep much, haven’t had much coffee yet, and am high on relief.

    1. Joa says:

      Ha ha ha, I love this kind of euphoria! I envy this moment 🙂

      What percentage Geyser do you have? Ha ha ha 🙂

      But when the euphoria wears off, you’ll realize that HG just added up the scores, according to the key he developed and sent you the appropriate ready-made files.

      PS I can’t stop smiling, your energy touched me through the links 🙂

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Candied Pansy, you reminded me of the moment I saw my EDC email notifications from HG 🙂 I felt that you are an empath and I am pleased you got the EDC done. It’s good that you took it, so that you can now just read and read, listen, to continue learning about narcissism, understanding yourself better and just build on that 🙂

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hello Asp Emp, you suggested I take the EDC. Thank you for doing so. I didn’t want to! Guilt about the mess I made here was the only thing that got me to actually do it! I was relieved once I saw my results. Now I can read and listen, as you said. 🙂

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hello Candied Pansy, ET can make one a bit antsy, even when ET is not fully understood in the early days of learning (re-learning) about oneself. Obtaining a positive result from an EDC is a relief to be informed ‘You are an Empath’. 4 magic words yet means a huge amount to some people. Obviously, it goes without saying (from me anyway), no need to feel guilt because your ET “says so”, it’s only been a short time since you came to KTN to start rediscovering yourself. I have not shared my EDC results and not everyone shares in any case. I do not plan to tell anyone in present / future life – as a form of safeguarding 🙂

          HG has a playlist ‘Empath’ on YT that may be helpful?

          The articles (here) are what I find useful to measure / gauge the ET / LT –

          I remember very well when I read these Emotional Seas for the first time, it was during a lengthy & raging storm (very rare for where I am) and I will never forget – the colours was awesome, the noise, the rain, the lightning……awesome 🙂

          Anyway, do enjoy reading / listening 🙂

          1. Candied Pansy says:

            Hello Asp Emp, my ET is often beyond antsy, but am sorry you know the feeling. Of course I would never ask anyone to share results. I wanted to clean up the mess I made here. Also a big part of my makeup has little content, I can’t ask HG, and it’s a miserable detriment to me.

            Thank you for telling me about the playlist. It will help, as well as the links you shared. That sounds like a truly awesome moment, reading the Emotional Seas for the first time, during such a storm. 🙂

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Candied Pansy, thank you for your response. HG has done work on the Empaths, which he will release some time in the future 🙂 You can either ask questions on here, or, consider a consult with HG if you feel the need to 🙂

    3. Leigh says:

      Yay, CP!

      This will be a huge help in understanding yourself.

      Lol I had some not so nice answers on mine too!

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Thank you for suggesting I take it, Leigh. I didn’t want to, but it will help me now. One bit explains a lot, IMO. I wish I could share, but I’m not allowed. I’m grateful HG didn’t say “narc”. He could have. I wouldn’t have argued or returned.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi CP,
          You don’t have to share but if you ask Mr. Tudor’s permission, he usually let’s you share.

        2. annaamel says:

          HG, could you please clarify what readers are allowed to share on the blog re their ED. My understanding was that they are not to share details of the test (to protect its integrity and the work that’s gone into it) but their personal results (schools, cadres and percentages) are theirs to share if they wish to do so.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are not to share anything with seeking prior permission, although as usual, there are those who fail to abide by what they agreed to.

        3. A Victor says:

          My understanding is that HG will not say narc, normal or narcissistic, if it’s doesn’t come out as empath, just “Not an empath”. But I may be incorrect.

          1. Candied Pansy says:

            Hi AV, I wonder if HG sends anyone “empath” results even if they’re a narc. I thought he told them “narc.” Maybe “not an empath” is all it takes to hurt if you’re a narc sure you’re an empath.

          2. A Victor says:

            CP, I had a realization just now, reading your comment again. I bet narcs who get “Not an empath” are furious! Or they may just believe HG’s EDC is faulty. For sure I believe it would challenge and possibly wound and then they’d have to do something to regain control. This is an interesting thing to consider, thank you for your comment.

          3. A Victor says:

            I hope you find this.

            HG could not send empath results to everyone because it would dilute the efficacy of the EDC. You and I would not be able to trust our results if he just told all that they are Empaths.

            It would also be incorrect. A normal would benefit in no way by being led to believe they’re an empath. A narc would only use it to their benefit.

            I believe he says “Not an Empath” if that’s what the results say. But he will not dispute it if they are not honest here because to do so would undermine the agreement we make with him when we take it.

    4. Jordyguin says:

      Yay Pansy!🎉🎉 you wasn’t going to open the email Lol!!

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Jordy, I was going to hide it in a folder and only keep it because I paid for it! I saw my inbox and thought, “I doubt a narc would see this. I think it’s safe!”

    5. Rebecca says:

      Hi Candied Pansy,

      I’m so happy for you, for the clear relief you feel, enjoy your feeling of happiness, it’s a great feeling! Xx Welcome to the Empath Club, May you learn much here that helps you and guides you on your journey of discovery and answers. Xx

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hi Rebecca,

        Thank you for your support! I was emotionally high, but came down, and am starting to use HG’s work to connect my results to my life. I can’t find information for every bit of my makeup yet, but I have time, and general empath content still helps. Now I can learn, w/o AM I A NARC screaming at me.

        I appreciate your welcoming to the Empath Club! Vaguely nervous is my normal, but my fear of being a narc is strong and pervasive. It’s mostly gone!

        1. Rebecca says:

          Candied Pansy,
          I’m glad you’re here. I think HG’s work will teach you better than anything else online and in book form. Prepare to learn a lot about yourself and have a lot of eye opening, Eureka moments. Xx

  7. Candied Pansy says:

    Hello all, I did the empath detector on June 29. My answers weren’t all nice or loving. *crosses fingers for narcissistic at worst, I can cope with being Johnny Depp*

    If this is my last comment, I’m a narc and withdrawing. If I’m back, I’m not a narc.

    Thank you for the kind comments. Whatever I am, I’ve appreciated them and HG’s patience.

  8. Jordyguin says:

    Hi Leigh,

    Leigh says:
    June 24, 2023 at 18:51
What? How is it that by Will Smith staying, he’s acting like a victim? How do you connect those dots?

    The dots:
    There are only ever three responses to threat and abuse, how I understood it. And how I see where this responses fit within the empath schools.

    1. Fight back and not doing what the abuser wants. Not agreeing to the abuse whilst in the intimate relationship, family, friendship or work situation etc. Most likely leaving soon. Fighting and/ or moving away from threat. (Super)

    2. Resistance. Not doing what the abuser wants yet not fighting back. Remaining in the situation but not responding to threat. There is a resistance by not doing anything, not fighting, not going along but also not moving away from threat. Not doing anything in any direction (not in abusers direction, not in its own direction) and/ or postponing. (Contagion)

    3. No fight back/ no resistance. Responding to threat by doing what the abuser wants. Perhaps blaming/guilt the self and justifying the self and the abuser (but he/she is a good person who needs me). Not fighting the threat, not running away from threat, remaining at the hands of the threat, doing what the abuser wants. (Codependent)

    As for an adult.
    As for a child, the child is forced to remain in abusive situations no matter how their response to threat is. And might even as a child alternate between 1-2-3 or respond just in one way to threat for the period of childhood. As a teen or an adult switching from 3 to 2 or 1.

    Numbers 2+3 are the victim. A victim is not fighting back and not moving away from threat. (Has nothing to do with judgment. It is just a predator-prey behavior and different prey will have a different response to threat.)

    I’m not saying it’s easy to switch from 3 to 1. Not even that one should try just because I or anybody say so. For instance the person 3 leaves and commits suicide after because they were not ready to be 1.
    It’s not about making them doing something they are not ready to do. But finding ways of how to support them to become ready to do the things they might wish to do. They might want to find out exist.
    To understand what it means. And if one want to engage in it at all. To what point.
    I think also it might depend on the Cadres.

    I find this are quite difficult things to decide upon, to even think about. I can imagine this are the things HG is dealing with in consultations.

    1. Leigh says:

      I don’t even know how to respond to this. I’m waving the white flag. I’m tapping out. You win.

      1. Jordyguin says:

        I don’t know how to respond either. I tried to answer your question in how I connect the dots. I think I’m an alien to you. All fine, no problem.

        1. Leigh says:

          You’re not alien to me. I just don’t view empaths the same way you do and I don’t see the point to continue to disagree about it.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Good to know I’m not an alien to you :))
            Thank you for your explanation on how you define a victim.

      2. Jordyguin says:

        Nevertheless, let me ask you Leigh, what is your definition of a victim mindset? And where does it come from? And is the empath excluded from this mindset, whilst narcissist, normal and narcissistic are not? How do you connect the dots?

        1. Leigh says:

          The definition of victim is a person harmed, injured or killed as a result of a crime, accident or other event or action.

          Someone with the victim mindset will blame all the things that are wrong in their life on outside events or actions. They take no accountability or responsibility for things that are wrong in their life.

          Does everyone take on that victim mindset every once in awhile? Yes. But not to the degree of a narcissist. Their MO is everything that’s wrong in their life is because of somebody else. That’s the victim mindset.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, excellent clarification.

          2. Rebecca says:


            Excellent definition there and sounds like my stepdaughter. She didn’t get fired for not coming to work. No, it’s their attendance policy that got her fired. No joke, she actually said that. How can a person be so thick headed? Unbelievable
            Thanks Leigh xx

          3. Leigh says:

            That’s hysterical Rebecca. If course it was the attendance policy and not your step daughter’s attendance issues.

          4. Jordyguin says:


            Another example I wanted to share, you probably have also encountered. Where incarcerated serial killers were given portraits of people to select their potential victims and they selected actual victims of crime. Just a portrait showed them a potential victim who would end up in their hands. Somehow they could see a victim who would attract a perpetrator, printed out on the face. Showing how deep our conditionings running through.

          5. Contagious says:

            I agree Leigh but what about it the opposite. Someone who is never the victim who takes life head on who never complains. I cut a mole off with my own knife.I spilled hot oil on myself and I never complain but it’s agony at times. I take no son who is marine who had surgery rejected pills too. I refused an epidermal despite a 17 hour pregnancy for the sake of my child. I left at 17put myself through college and law school raised two kids who turned out well or better than I ever dreamed mostly on my own. Bought a house that’s now worth a million on my own. I hate asking for help. I often help others. If in pain, I retreat until better. I consider myself a soldier. I don’t understand the appeal of victims. But I do get how lucky you are to help others. It is not a virtue but a gift.

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Contagious,
            That’s the Martyr in you and you don’t complain. You don’t have a victim mindset. You soldier on. Empaths in general soldier on. They don’t take on the victim role as Jordy suggests.

          7. Jordyguin says:


            „Empaths in general soldier on. They don’t take on the victim role as Jordy suggests.“

            Victim role is not a victim-mindset.

            Victim role is what other people or circumstances chose for you.
            Victim-mindset is what others teach you and what you absorb from what surrounds you.
            Victim-mindset is what keeps you in abusive relationships or negative situations. Victim-mindset lead to compromises where there shouldn’t be any.

            “That’s the Martyr in you and you don’t complain.”

            Of course there will be no complain! Pure Martyr is a Doormat because “things” (responsibilities, duties, moods, problems) are walked on top of that Doormat and the Doormat carry all this “things” and the function of a Doormat they were taught to take on themselves, with acceptance to the point of pride.
            This program is usually imposed on a child by a strong willed caregiver (who are in positions of leaders, bosses, army etc.)
            A Martyr’s needs come always second, not first.
            Pain becomes reward = Martyr

          8. WiserNow says:

            Leigh and Jordyguin,

            “That’s the Martyr in you and you don’t complain.”

            Yes, this is true in a way, but, in my opinion, it’s not done as though the empath is thinking, “I’m going to willingly suffer and sacrifice because I’m a martyr and martyrs don’t complain.”

            In my case, I could see that if I didn’t do certain things, nobody else in my family would. That made me think that by doing those things, I was actually doing something of benefit that would provide a positive outcome not only for myself but for other family members as well.

            I also thought that by doing those things, those who were benefiting would recognise the benefits and appreciate them, thereby appreciating my efforts.

            When my expectations of appreciation did not eventuate in the way I thought they would, I did complain either to myself or outwardly. However, I wasn’t complaining because I saw myself as a martyr and I wanted pity. The complaints were more like annoyance at the feedback I was getting. I still had conviction in my initial beliefs and I still pursued them.

            “Pain becomes reward = Martyr.”

            Pain was never a reward for me – ever. No way!

            I was prepared to suffer to an extent because I wanted the benefits I could envision as the outcome or reward. It was for the pursuit of an ideal. It wasn’t in any way, shape or form because I thought pain is some kind of reward.

            On a side note, the origin of the word ‘martyr’ is from the Greek ‘martur’ which means ‘witness’. The original meaning of the word doesn’t involve pain or sacrifice or dying or being killed for having certain beliefs. I think the persecution or ‘sacrifice’ is borne out of the way the martyr is treated rather than the martyr’s own beliefs.

            In my own situation, I did not feel as though I was ‘sacrificing’. Instead, I saw an opportunity to improve certain things and I also believed in my ability to improve them. It wasn’t coming from a place of submitting to sacrifice myself. Initially, before I knew about narcissism, I saw my willingness to improve the situation as a position of strength and value.

            It was when the narcissists in the family either began to expect it of me or take advantage that my initial beliefs started changing. Instead of seeing my efforts as beneficial, the narcissists began to treat me as gullible and easily manipulated.

            It’s twisted in a way, because I could see that they thought I was gullible and easily manipulated, but at the same time, I thought I would rather do what I was doing so that we could all – as a family – enjoy the benefits rather than be without them.

            At that time, I didn’t know about narcissism and I didn’t see myself or think of myself as a martyr. It felt like a burden and it was difficult at times and I would have liked their appreciation, but at the same time, it was something I felt compelled to do.

          9. Leigh says:

            Compelled is a great word to describe it. That’s how it works for me too. Im just compelled to do it.

            When I said we don’t complain, I meant we don’t whine about it. There’s no woe is me or why is this happening to me. We just do it.

            I agree 100% about being upset when they’re not grateful after being helped. Yes, that can cause me to become irritated and complain as well.

            I don’t have any martyr. I do have carrier though. I can be a bit selfish at times and I think that keeps my Carrier in check. I didn’t allow my victim narcissist mother to come live with me. I drew a line and put her in a nursing home. I had two small children at the time and I wouldn’t divide my time between them.

            Thank you for explaining how you experience it. It’s very similar for me.

          10. Jordyguin says:

            Contagious, hi! I think the Contagion school played and plays a great deal in your empathic make up. Perhaps more than anything else. The wide empathy range, after all, is what seem to maneuver you out and is your leading force. But also your energy levels seem to be pretty high, which gives you access to act upon impulses you receive. In your case it all leads to contagion somehow. Plus the strong-willed-drive in your (childhood) surroundings, which developed a Martyr element. The sacrifices you may bring for the benefit of others. But you weigh them out, measure and strive for balance.

          11. Rebecca says:

            Hi Leigh, AV and Jordyguin,

            I have another funny story of another family member of my husband’s. His middle brother is one of those preaching narcissist, the one who thinks he’s a Saint and a Preacher. He sets himself up as my father in laws POA and starts giving away his things and my stepdaughter and him are now fighting over my father in laws stuff and he’s still alive….unbelievable, how he’ll point the finger at her, calling her the thief,when he’s doing it too. They’re both smearing the other one. It’s kinda funny to listen to it all fall down hill, because they both call here, wanting to involve me in their fight. Nope, not here, so my husband ends up taking the ear beating from both of them. I find it funny, now he’s going through what I used to go through with his toxic family. Feels good not to be involved in the fighting. Like two children fighting over Halloween candy. Xx

          12. Jordyguin says:

            Rebecca! He’s still don’t need a tv!

          13. Rebecca says:

            Hi Jordyguin,

            You have no idea, it’s like a soap opera, with his family. They drive me nuts, why I cut them off. I only talk with my stepdaughter for arrangements to see her little one and I try to make it a quick grab and go….but, sometimes I hear about her latest drama from her and I really must go, I tell her. It’s a circus, with lots of clowns. It’s a lot easier dealing with it, when I know what I’m dealing with and I avoid, avoid as much as possible.

          14. WiserNow says:


            You’re welcome and thank you also.

            Being compelled to do things a certain way is a strong instinct and it’s difficult to change. I have worked on changing this aspect of myself and it takes time and practice. I keep reinforcing the knowledge again and again.

            I agree, the complaining isn’t a ‘woe is me’ attitude. I didn’t want to talk to anyone about how I was feeling when I was experiencing the devaluations and mind games. Instead I carried on, adopting the attitude that I needed to ‘do better’ to overcome the difficulties. I didn’t want pity or sympathy. That would have made me feel worse. I wanted validation and peace from my family, which was different from pity.

            It sounds like you had strong boundaries with your mother when you drew a line to focus on your children. You did well. Victim narcissists are very self-centred and needy. They are draining too.

            The more I keep learning, I see that each person has a biological response to their particular early childhood environment, starting before birth. It depends on different factors all coming together to shape the schools, cadres, traits and instinctive behaviours.

          15. Leigh says:

            Hi WN,
            You really hit the nail on the head here.

            “I didn’t want pity or sympathy. That would have made me feel worse. I wanted validation and peace from my family, which was different from pity.”

            I agree 100%.

            Thank you for understanding my need to draw a line with my mother so I can focus on my children. I appreciate that.

          16. WiserNow says:

            You’re very welcome Leigh, and thank you for your kind reply as well.

            If your mother is (or was) anything like mine, I think I can understand why you drew the line when it came to your children.

            I can imagine how things would have been if I had children and my mother was involved in their lives or my life. Instead of creating joy and calm, she probably would have created drama, insisting on having things done the way she wanted. If I objected or stood my ground, my father would have (as always) backed her up and told me not to argue with her. My mother probably would have manipulated the children too, in order to influence them against me.

            Like you, I would have drawn the line too.

          17. Leigh says:

            Hi WN,
            Yes, my mom is still alive. My mother has no involvement with my children at all and she prefers it that way. My mother’s form of abuse was neglect. At a very young age, I had to take on the responsibility for her and my siblings. My children don’t even know her. When talking about her, they don’t call her Grandma, they say, my mom’s mom.

            I knew if I brought her to my home, I would have to be her caregiver again. I wasn’t prepared to go through that again. I had already escaped. I didn’t know it at the time though. At that time, my brother was taking care of her. Then my father had died and he had to identify the body. He didn’t handle it well and one day he just packed his bags and left. My mom tried to live alone but she couldn’t do it. I think she lasted 4 months after my brother left. I knew I would have to divide my time and I wasn’t prepared to do that. Believe it or not, she was fine being put in a nursing home. She knew she’d get the around the clock care that she wanted.

            Just an FYI, she’s not any more unhealthy than any other senior. She has some congestive heart issues but nothing out of the ordinary. She has her complete wits about her. No dementia at all. She just has no desire to take care of herself and that’s how she’s been her whole entire life.

            I have brief, 5 minute conversations with her once a month or so. I haven’t seen her since right before the beginning of COVID.

            I know not everyone gets it, but sometimes drawing that line is necessary.

          18. WiserNow says:


            Yes, not everyone gets it, but I understand that sometimes that line is necessary. People form their opinions without true knowledge of what it’s really like to live every day in a particular situation.

            I’m sorry you had so much responsibility at a very young age. That is too much for a child to take on and as a child, you couldn’t refuse or leave. It was very unfair. You deserved a childhood, to be cared for and given the kind of attention a child needs.

            It’s incomprehensible to me that a grown adult who is healthy and sane has no desire to take care of him or herself and would rather have round the clock care. After learning about narcissism and reading HG’s posts and listening to his countless videos, as well as researching child development and many different theories such as attachment, object relations, executive thinking, etc, I know enough to know it happens and I understand the behaviours in an intellectual sense. The concept of expecting others to care for you as though you are helpless is just repellent to me. I can’t imagine that level of insecurity or entitlement or whatever it is.

            The more I think about it, I believe that a victim narcissist must experience something or be in an environment that starts the ball rolling in relation to the helplessness and needing other people to take care of him or her. Your mother gave birth to you and your siblings, so she was motivated enough to have a partner and have children. At some point though, her ‘helplessness’ and entitlement was enabled and became a habit. She was given what she wanted and she learned to rely on it until it became her ‘normal’. It became her daily existence.

            The lack of self-reflection probably has a lot to do with it as well. If there is no internal self-reflection and no external pressure or resistance to a person’s entitlement becoming a habit, the habit continues and becomes more entrenched. It becomes ever more difficult to turn back and reverse the behaviours.

            It is what it is though. It’s very sad that you don’t have a normally functioning mother and your children don’t know their grandmother. It’s also sad that a healthy adult needs round the clock ‘care’. But then, even though it’s ‘sad’, feeling sad about it doesn’t change anything.

            I think back to my own parents and grandparents; their generations lived through very turbulent and difficult times with WWI, the Great Depression and WWII all occurring back to back. They were testing times for the whole world. Within a relatively short timespan, there was also the invention of electricity, the industrial revolution, photography and cinema, mass media, and the sexual revolution. A lot of lifestyle and social changes, as well as disruptions. While this was happening, mental health, personality and social behaviour weren’t well understood or discussed.

            I think the historical aspects are significant and need to be taken into account. It all has an effect on how things are in the present time.

            I understand your need to draw the line. Those who haven’t lived it can’t truly grasp what it’s like and don’t have true emotional empathy either.

            Thank you for sharing that aspect of your family background, Leigh.

          19. Leigh says:

            The best thing about narcsite is the knowledge I receive by being here. I can see how the narcissism in my mother was formed. My mother was coddled by her parents. Everything was handed to her. My father even worked in my grandparent’s business. I believed my mother had children to bind my father to her. It didn’t work though because he was a narcissist too. He left when I was 14. He eventually came back but it was many years later. He only came back for the free ride. He knew the house was paid off by my grandparents and he could live for free. They were both pitiful.

            I feel very similar to you about grown adults who are capable yet expect to be taken care of by family or society. Its why I don’t have a relationship with my mother. Thank you for your empathy here. I appreciate it.

        2. Leigh says:

          Victim and victim mindset are two very different things.

          It’s unfortunate that I am a victim. I was abused by both parents.

          Just because I’m a victim does not mean I have a victim mindset. I do not have a victim mindset. I do not whine and cry, “Woe is me, why does this keep happening, someone fix me problems.” I fix my own problems. I take care of myself.

          I am debating whether an empath is a victim. I’m debating that just because they’re a victim doesn’t mean they have the victim mindset.

          The victim mindset is the MO of a narcissist.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Maybe you are indeed free or became free of a version of victim mindset. Or maybe you indeed never had one. I just leave it there.
            I just think in order to become a victim of a narc partner who abuses, you gotta have developed a version of a victim mindset in some way, not because you are weak, but because you were taught in some way. Thus the alarm is on OFF when red and black flags flutter. The victim is someone to whom things are done to. Real or imagined.

          2. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I agree with you. We can be victimized, thus making us a victim, but this does not automatically mean that we must take on a victim mindset. Even as a child, being victimized by my parents, I rejected certain aspects of what they tried to impose on me, even as other aspects were adopted. Learning what was imposed has been a way of releasing myself from those beliefs, some more quickly than others. But even the ones that take more time and that I have had to do more work on, just knowing it is not as it should be, that it was imposed, has released me from the victim mindset, now it’s a matter of learning to replace that thinking, what to replace it with and practicing. I can’t remove the fact that I was victimized, I was a victim, but I don’t have to accept continuing to be a victim or holding onto the victim mindset. Whatever point I am at in the process of releasing that mindset, I am a victor. I can take it back on again, but also get back on track again. As long as I don’t stay in it, I am a victor.

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your response and your corroboration. I was beginning to think I’d gone mad, lol.

          4. Jordyguin says:

            A Victor, Leigh

            What I see is; you are giving a brief summery and the description of the ’surface of the sea’ which is totally fine, but it’s not something new to me or what would be of further use for me. I think therein lies the difference in our approach, maybe… What I search for is the underwater current, the depth, the winds, the moon, the salt — all which impacts on the sea and its ups and downs. In order to have the full transparency on my behavior and that of all other people. To name things and understand the words and triggers enveloped in this words. What they are used for and their effect and efficiency… How they shape what we are and what we do, and how others (caregivers and teachers) used them in order to shape us and the society… I want to see those beliefs and impositions in detail… For me it’s not enough to know that there is a victor and a victim and that we can change or switch from one to another when we are unwell, stressed, low on energy, low on awareness etc. I need definitions and manifestations described and seen in order to recognise them quickly…

            When HG gives the analyses of people, he describes the behavior and the words the person used and he gives the term for what it stands for, such as; pity play, blame, complaint, victim mentality etc.

            To have that level of fast identification of oneself in order to change and move forward… For me, I need clear words of any nature, not just the nice ones.

            It’s how HG described it: „Words are used to serve a purpose. The day we stop using words because they have a negative connotation or that they paint a derogatory picture is to dismantle what language is for.“

        3. Leigh says:

          I need to correct my last comment. I meant to say, I am NOT debating whether an empath is a victim.

          1. Contagious says:

            Hi everyone! I think most people in the world are victims at some time even narcs. It could be a scam, a relationship, a job, or a disease or death of a loved one. To me, a victim is someone subjected to an unjust situation. I hate those who blame the victim as it is an oxymoron. But victims can rise. Everyone of them in their own time and hopefully with love and support. That’s the hope. I feel bad for those who get stuck. They call that the victim mindset those who struggle to get out. The worst are those who aren’t victims but claim they are to manipulate. To get others to do things they should do themselves. They found playing victim reaps rewards. They use it as a shield or weapon to reap reward. Those appear to be mid range narcs as it’s calculated even if subconsciously. It lacks empathy. It’s not a struggle to survive but a method to manipulate others to exist without regard to the damage it inflicts whether the welfare state or those who fall prey to it. If you see the difference, I believe in tough love. Step back. Let them fall until they are forced to make better choices. Often they move in to the next enabler. And every state and country suffers from those. I don’t see a victim mindset but I see temporary victims and permanent narcs.

          2. Leigh says:

            Thank you for saying this. I agree with what you’re saying with one caveat. I think the victim mindset is the MO of a narc.

          3. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I agree. Do you know what my ex did in our first date? Spent the entire time telling me all the woes of his life. Do you know why? Because he wanted me to “know” him. I seriously debated about a second date, unfortunately he was cute enough that I decided to go out with him again. So wish I had known this info back then. And, he’s not a victim narc, he just had the narc victim mindset, useful for manipulation.

          4. Leigh says:

            Ugh! With the exclusion of my father, ever narc in my life has had that “woe is me”, victim mindset. It’s often the same thing, “I need help, Leigh; please help me, Leigh; I can’t do it, Leigh.” I used to be so deluded that i would’ve fell for your ex’s manipulation because I would’ve felt bad for him. No more, now I stay far away from the chronic complainers.

          5. Rebecca says:

            Leigh and AV,

            Midrangers are the worse whiners, that’s the first thing LMRSOMATIC did, whine about his life and like you, I felt bad for him.
            Did yall see the new series about Empaths coming out tomorrow on HG’s YT?? I’m really looking forward to that! Xx
            Hope you’re both well. Xx

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            Thank you so much for the heads up! I check YouTube daily but sometimes I miss things. I almost missed the latest Doug interview too. Thankfully TS made a comment about it so I did a more thorough search.

            I’m very excited! Whoop whoop!

          7. Rebecca says:

            You’re welcome Leigh and thanks for the heads up about the new Doug interview, I didn’t see that one. I’m excited about the new material today on HG’s YT! Xx

          8. Jordyguin says:

            „Did yall see the new series about Empaths coming out tomorrow on HG’s YT??“

            A piggy happy squeal emerged out of the depths of moi upon HG’s opening in that video!!!!!!

    2. A Victor says:


      So… Because the super has a different response, they are not victims of the narcs abuse? I understand that if they end the relationship they are no longer victims, perhaps, of that specific narcs abuse but it doesn’t negate the abuse that transpired to bring them to that point. It’s still abuse, they were still victims of that abuse. They can become victors, just as any school can. But the abuse often (I would say usually) leaves scars and damage, sometimes long after it’s no longer actively happening. To deny that supers have not been victimized is not fair to them.

      1. AV, I have to agree with you. All empaths are potential victims of narcissist abuse, regardless of their school. Super’s can be as easily ensnared as CoD’s, the main difference being they are likely to escape sooner. As you point out, it’s possible for any school to escape, or become victors. CoD’s may take longer, but it’s not beyond any school to become entangled or escape. The addiction and it’s affects applies to us all.

      2. Jordyguin says:


        You’re right of course, Supers are victims too. The response to correct ’the victim’ in a Super will perhaps occur sooner than in other cases, is where I see that their ability to become victorious is more pronounced. Though from people sharing their stories where Super was present, they still stayed for very long. But they also had a Contagion and CoD, so this two schools influenced because this school’s response to threat (fight, run, freeze, obey) will be different. And if one don’t have a Super element at all, I would assume it will be more difficult to impossible to jump to defense. As HG described; others would have to remove the victim from the abuser, physically.

        I described three responses to threat (how I see them). But there is also a fourth – people who don’t even end up facing this type of threat (abusive relationships or situations where they are not happy but remain in them). So I guess for me it’s the realisation of all the three responses I described, how I see, where I also fit within and I’ll be more Super in one circumstance and more Contagion or CoD in other, along unbalanced narc traits and high emotional thinking. And also striving for the fourth response, where I just pass by or turn around quickly and walk out of the room not even considering anymore.

        Sometimes I express in my comments how I strive to make a distinction on behavior and an actual human being, who (to me) is by its very nature a victorious being and not a victim but is turned by circumstances of life to adopt the mindset of a victim. A victim (an adult person) with a mindset of a victor would not end up in a long life relationship or situations where he/she is abused, not respected and so on. And it’s very difficult to decipher in order to leave, as we understand now given the insight from HG. But a victim can change and become a victor, again is where we all agree I would say. The discussions are circling around how we get there and how some of you already got there and serve an example and support.
        However, I also can’t overlook the fact that a narcissist with a mindset of a victim was too once a child who was forced in to this mindset and I have to acknowledge this in order to understand how the perpetrator developed and most likely can’t see it due to the very strong grip of the construct on their awareness and psyche, it will make me more compassionate also towards them, which is important for me personally. There will be no judgement (bad/good) but an understanding, that’s all.

        Feel the need to point out one last time:
        Where I wasn’t on the same wave with some people here, was them telling me that I can’t use certain terms and comparisons to describe a behavior which frustrates me. And I agree with them that there is always a better option to find better ways to explain things. I don’t agree however that certain terms or comparisons can’t be used. We don’t know each other, so I can be honest about what is going on in my mind upon facing an information here and where there can be also a mislead we can discuss, and we did. After all we openly share and examine behaviors of destructive and addictive nature; finding out if and how it can be corrected and are not competing who is the most empathic empath on the blog. Compassion is apt, agree, thus all the further expenditure. And some readers are truly sharp and wonderful in their use of terms and how their balance shines through. I absolutely thank you and learn from you!!!

        Another example I wanted to share, you probably have also encountered. Where incarcerated serial killers were given portraits of people to select their potential victims and they selected actual victims of crime. Just a portrait showed them a potential victim who would end up in their hands. Somehow they could see a victim who would attract a perpetrator, printed out on the face. Showing how deep our conditionings running through.

    3. Contagious says:

      Very good. Amazing how did you reach this? as a contagion, I decided to keep all my relationships positive SO I keep in touch but disengage with those people who are negative or burdersome or destructive. I keep it light but distanced. I prefer that to anger or ending it negatively. It works. Balance? But I see what you wrote as true. It’s a form of no contact.

      1. Contagious says:

        Also when I took self defense courses in my youth, I learned that confidence scares abusers away. It is known predators look for vulnerable targets

      2. Jordyguin says:

        I’d say it really depends on the people you’re dealing with… ’balance’ means also no compromises with certain behavior or aspects. Sometimes you can’t evade the negative and it can also mean ’balance’.
        Empathy is multifaceted. Think of animal kingdom and nature. There will be claws and teeth and in the end there is the ultimate balance of nature in everything! As long the ’unbalanced human’ don’t intervene and create the unbalance for species and self.

        1. Contagious says:

          Jordyguin: hi! I agree with you that empaths are multifaceted as are all people. We however are not animals although there are some who very much resemble animals. I would say psychopaths are closest to the predators you speak of but maybe the animals are more empathetic like elephants and dolphins who also pass the mirror test and can see themselves so perhaps others in comparison. When I speak of balance perhaps it is as HG describes a contagion element. When there is so much negativity it is draining. You can either walk away, try to turn it around by bringing in positive light or become immune. I have found taking the high road makes you see clearer and feel better. So if even dealing with a narc I might exit but always on a positive note. I have always regretted when I was unkind but I tend towards kindness. You don’t do it for them, it’s like forgiveness, you do it for you and for a step to balancing the light and the dark. Both exist in this world. Most people are just walking this earth trying to put a roof on their heads or their families and food on the table. Most of the people I have met and I have traveled 37 countries are the same in that regard and multifaceted and mostly good people. I think as empaths we should own it. Do the right thing where we can to “ balance” the scales. We are needed in this world. Imagine a world not just ruled by narcs but filled with them. What would it look like? HG gives us knowledge and with knowledge comes the power to balance the scales.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            :))Yes absolutely, I see what you mean.
            „Most of the people I have met and I have traveled 37 countries are the same in that regard and multifaceted and mostly good people. I think as empaths we should own it. Do the right thing where we can to “ balance” the scales.“
            I also think that it’s the case with the good people. Sometimes good people seem not have enough power at their hands to do the right thing… And sometimes narcs or others or narcissistic psychopaths turns out to do the right thing (humanitarian work, firefighters, dangerous environment etc.) It’s motivated from a different place. At the end of the day the person in need was helped… There is also balance in that regard.

            In terms of nature and balance, I think for instance about shark-whisperers, lions, cobras, wolfs and all predator whisperers who have studied the behavior of predators and can „tame“ them. One tiny mistake on the side of the whisperer and you’re dead (Steve Irwin and similar fates spring to mind). Animal and nature-life is sophisticated in terms of impeccability of survival. Predators/ nature don’t make excuses because you’re kind or a good person, it demands an impeccable understanding and attention to the BALANCE and its PURPOSE and thus demand an impeccable knowledge of yourself, your true INTENTIONS and abilities. To an extent of absolute 100% alertness and attention where it’s life vs death. Emotional thinking would mean demise in this real environment and circumstances of true survival.

            The greater enemy is not the external predator but what goes on within the emotional thinking – inside the mind. Its grip on our psyche makes us illusion-addicted and weak, just as the „safe“ society wants us to be, presenting itself as an artificial predator and even a parasite in the end. Yet one finger snap of the force of nature and the society and the illusion is gone.

            My theory is; the imbalance in the human mind arouse due to weak people who began to loose their connection with nature and what it demanded of them – to behave impeccably and in harmony with nature and understand it for what it is – a complex cosmos of life and death, of kindness and beauty but also strength and intransigence, where you have to give your only best in terms of the real life and not in a virtual environment. Weak fighters (empaths, narcs, others) „survive“ and win in „video games“ (strong tech-dependancy on all levels of survival, illusory safety and illusory purpose) and would die out when technology reaches decay. Strong fighters survive in real life circumstances (balanced out technology use) and in unity with predatory and intransigence yet just and nurturing nature.

          2. Witch says:


            We are animals, we are a type of animal. We are also predators who eat and use other animals to survive

  9. annaamel says:

    Think they’re the world’s problem solvers. Rush in with their sanctimony and bombast, riding roughshod over boundaries of politeness and respect in the belief they are correct and must state their opinion. Think they know the most and understand the best and unless they step in a problem will be left unsolved. Their pride is on a hair trigger and if it senses or feels or interprets a criticism will leap into self defence, using whatever methods they can muster which will wound their opponent, empathy be damned.

    Think they’re lovely people who don’t piss anyone off, ever. It doesn’t matter what’s going on around them, they will be moderate and mild, but if they see someone hurt or being hurt they’ll definitely feel it a lot, and it will hurt, a lot, but it’s not their place, not their business, but oh, they feel that pain, because they’re empaths. They think about other people and definitely feel bad for them but giving an opinion or expressing a strong feeling is not nice. They like being nice.

    Think they are alternately seers on the mountain seeing things no ordinary human can see or fragile thermometers of every emotion ever felt by human or wild creature. Children flock to them as do small animals. They can tame beasts. The death of a bug hurts them in ways unimaginable. They weep easily because the pain of the world reaches inside them and squeezes their gentle hearts till they must escape to live like hermits in the mountains, eating fallen berries and already deceased bugs.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      I should not assume, so I’ll ask.
      Is your intention with this comment to be seen as complying with a request to see the derision of other schools?
      To show that a highlight reel of selective traits and in a direct manner could be made of any school of empath?
      Which category (if any) do you believe (or have had confirmed) are you?

      1. A Victor says:

        NA, with your questions, you are a better empath than I. 🙂

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        NA, I think you know the answer to your first two questions, and my bad.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          No bad LET. I requested clarification to see if I read it in the way it was intended.

          I enjoyed the comment.

    2. A Victor says:

      Ha, thanks for the confirmation Annaamel.

    3. Witch says:


      I’m standard and I still piss people off
      And if the person is a narc.. I seem to piss them off even more

    4. Leigh says:

      I’m majority standard and I’m rarely, if ever, called nice. I piss people off, all the time This is why you can’t make broad generalizations like this comment. Its also why Jordy shouldn’t have either.

      1. WhoCares says:


        I am the same re: majority and I have, more than once, been labeled as “cold” or “uncaring”.
        But, perhaps, these were narcissists responding to my post-Narcsite educated self.

        1. A Victor says:


        2. Rebecca says:

          Leigh and AV,

          My majority is the same as yours, but I’m usually called too nice by co workers, some friends and even strangers. Even my best friend tells me I’m too nice. She says this because I sometimes let things sit, when people are rude. I’ll bite my lip and take it….their cutting words, mainly because I’m at work and can’t say what I want to say, but I have gotten to the point now, that I speak up for myself, even at work. I just leave the cuss words out and choose respectful, but assertive words and then I walk away. Not tolerating that, thank you very much.
          I’ve been told my mouth is the meanest part of me, but I still control what I say and I’m mindful of what I say. I don’t like to hurt someone’s feelings, unless they stumped all over mine, or hurt a loved one, even then it would depend on what was said, where I’m at, was I already mad about something else beforehand…etc…it’s not so black and white. Xx

          1. Leigh says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            I’ve been told I’m blunt and a bully. I prefer to say that I’m direct and assertive. There are people who will take positive qualities and turn them into negative ones.

            Maybe whoever said your mouth is the meanest part of you, said it because you were being assertive and they needed to nullify your assertiveness.

            Your kindness radiates in your comments

          2. Rebecca says:

            Thank you Leigh, for your kind words. I can see your Super working, when you confront people here and don’t take that as a criticism, it’s not meant that way by me. My Savior part does that for me, what your Super part does for you. Xx Awesome, isn’t it? How they work so well…xx

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            LOL! I promise I don’t take it as a criticism. I am confrontational. I don’t see that as a negative necessarily. Sometimes it can be but for the most part, I see it as a positive. Its how I get to the bottom of things.

            I find it fascinating as well, how my traits work and how they’re triggered.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            I’ve been labeled cold and uncaring by people who wanted me to do something for them when I was unwilling to. I was even told once that I was seriously because I didn’t spend more time with friends. That was from a woman that I didn’t care for much and also at the height of my ensnarement/devaluation phase with my second husband, so I was struggling just to stay afloat. But I figured these still count, I have the ability to be cold and uncaring.

            Typically I have been told that I apologize too much. When I realized that my apologizing, though sincere, irritated people, I forced myself to quit doing it. For the most part, it still happens occasionally.

            I have an extremely difficult time saying anything mean to someone. Even if they deserve it or it would be best for them to hear it. But then I say the f word a lot when I’m alone, to vent. I say it a lot after I have to spend more than 30 seconds with my mother. I wouldn’t say it to her though, I’d never give her the fuel.

          5. Rebecca says:

            I’ve been told I apologize too much, too. I think that is where the ” too nice ” part about me comes in. I have a hard time stopping saying it, I literally have to close my mouth tightly and breathe deep, that’s how bad the urge is to keep apologizing, especially when I feel really bad about a blunder I did.
            I cuss under my mouth a lot, when irritating things happen, like my work phone not working right. I’ll cuss that thing out, under my breath , while I’m working, like it cares. 😆 My friends, at work, find it amusing, that I fuss at malfunctioning equipment. I just can’t hold in my emotions, they spring out and all I can do is mumble some curse words and grimace. My fuming can get worse, if I’m around irritating people like my stepdaughter, the same for you with your mother…I think the best I can do is control the intensity of my reactions, these emotions are overwhelming at times. Hope things are well. I know what you must be going through living with your mother.. I can’t imagine dealing with mine again. Xx

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi Rebecca,
            That is what I try to do also, controlling the intensity of the reactions, and the timing. Sometimes, rarely because I rarely see her, I’ve had to get out of there before letting my reaction out.

            Things are very well, thanks for asking. My mother is nothing if not consistent.

          7. Jordyguin says:

            Rebecca, but do you feel bad when you cuss? What if you just need to do it freely, if you feel like it, without a limit on yourself? What if you need to do this for a while without giving it a judgement of „bad“ or „wrong“, you know.

            You say: „I just can’t hold in my emotions, they spring out and all I can do is mumble some curse words and grimace.“

            What if the very fight of wanting to HOLD those emotions in, make it worse? The conflict of wanting to cuss or have emotions spring out of you, but you hold them back and this very action is what steals from you. Steals the energy or drains you or twirl you up even more? If this is the case?

          8. Rebecca says:

            Hi Jordyguin,

            You asked, do I feel bad when I cuss? Yes, I do. I was raised to feel cussing is bad, eventhough both my parents would cuss. I would get the lecture on cussing from my mother and my dad would also get the lecture from her. If I cuss at work, it’s under my breath, for fear I’ll be heard cussing. It’s like I still expect to be lectured on cussing as an adult.
            You also asked about me holding back my feelings? I just naturally restrain my feelings, it’s important to me that I keep myself in check. I guess I’m afraid of disappointing those around me, who expect me to control my emotions. Letting myself go emotionally ,I rarely do in public, mostly around friends I trust, people I know well and I feel safe with.. I let my hair down, but even then part of me holds part of me back. I guess I’m afraid of letting me out to play, afraid of looking silly, or looking dumb, and I’m afraid of being reprimanded if I let my emotions run amuck. Around my mother I wasn’t allowed to be loud, me laughing was called cackling by my mother, so I held back my laughter and the times I couldn’t, I’d get a lecture on being noisy. When I laugh loud , as an adult, I sometimes apologize for my loud laugh. I automatically feel bad for laughing too loud. I’m still walking on eggshells and I’m an adult.
            You asked, if I think holding back my emotions is what’s causing my emotions to spring forth so much? I don’t think so, I think my emotions are just strong because I feel so strongly, I feel deeply and I just struggle to maintain a normal emotional range. If my emotions were a glass of water, some of it would spill over onto the floor and that’s just a normal day for me. If you took a day that’s been difficult, the glass would almost be empty and the floor is damaged from the moisture. I have a long memory and I can recall my emotions being strong and hard to handle. I hope I answered your questions. Xx

          9. Rebecca says:


            Yes, you can definitely count on you mother to be consistent. My husband is the same way. I mostly just deal with it, while home, but I tend to occupy my time outside and getting errands done. I can’t just sit for long. I want to know why I can’t just sit for long and not get bored and antsy. I can’t really relax….not really relax, relax. You know? Anyway, I’m working and paying my bills, so it could be worse. I’m not giving up. I’m glad you found a way around your mother. Xx

        3. alexissmith2016 says:

          I’m Magnet SE, and definitely post knowledge, two self aware narcs both thought I was an N. One most definitely changed his mind, the other I’m not sure about? I’d rather he continue to think I’m an N. Not that it makes a damn bit of difference as the games are always being played.

          1. Rebecca says:

            Hi Alexis Smith,

            MLSOMATIC and his daughter another MLSOMATIC, both accused me of being a narcissist. His narc daughter even told , one of her boyfriends and he showed up at my work. He was trying to give me a hard time. I just ignored his comments and talked to his roommate, he had with him, at the time. His roommate ended up telling him, that he was being rude to me and to shut up. I thanked him and continued to ignore the narc boyfriend. I ignored him because he was being very crude with his comments and I knew ignoring him would be the best way to make him leave and not come back. My stepdaughter and him were fighting with each other, at the time of his little visit, and he felt he needed to tell me that she’s a b#%@& and a w#%@* and that I should kick her out on her a%# and he’s yelling it, making a scene. I’m just chatting away with his roommate, like he’s not even there. I learned to tune out yelling because my brother would talk over movies in shows and if I wanted to hear anything, I had to train myself to tune him out. It’s difficult for me, but it’s doable with determination added to effort. Her narc boyfriend didn’t expect me to ignore him. 2 points for having an annoying, older brother, who wouldn’t shut up. Xx
            Oh, and my stepdaughter was living with me at the time this happened, just to clear that up. I did kick her out, when she went too far with me. I had enough. Xx

      2. Jordyguin says:


        „Broad generalizations“ ohmyG.
        I was obviously speaking from my little tiny space on the planet, where I DON’T KNOW every CoD. You and LET are grown ups but act like as if you were born yesterday.
        I could do the same with you until the end of time: Why could others understand and you don’t?! I just need to mention it every time regardless of what you explain. Mention to you and and to others. “You know, Leigh couldn’t understand, but others understood.”
        Until the end of time.

    5. lickemtomorrow says:

      LMAO, Annaamel … you picked up the gauntlet!

      Goes to show CoD’s are not outliers, if nothing else.

      Still don’t understand how Contagion is not one of my schools. Children and animals love me 🙂

      1. A Victor says:

        Same regarding the Contagion.

    6. WiserNow says:


      That’s funny and also quite accurate as an assessment of the three empath schools.

      Imagine if the three schools were three people living together 24/7 in a small confined room and they had to find a way to agree on things and live in harmony. That’s what it can be like in your head when you have all three schools, for me anyway.

      Although… if I see a cockroach anywhere near my kitchen, a very swift decision is made and the cockroach is going down, contagion or no contagion.

      1. Leigh says:

        WN, LOL! I’m with you with regards to cockroaches. I have no mercy for them, lol!

        1. WiserNow says:

          Me neither, Leigh. When it comes to cockroaches, spiders, wasps, etc in the house, my Super takes over.

          On the other hand, I give a pass to ladybirds, butterflies, caterpillars, and those little bright green bugs that look just like a leaf, etc.

          Even ants are ok as long as they stay out of the house. It’s all about boundaries 🙂

          1. Rebecca says:

            WiserNow and Leigh,

            Bugs don’t bother me, I mean I don’t want them crawling on me, or in my house. I do preventive things like using bug repellents and not keeping food out etc. I know when my stepdaughter lived with me, she would leave food in her room and I’d worry about it attracting bugs. It seemed like I was cleaning up after her a lot and she liked to leave messes. I thought she was doing that to irritate me and I’m pretty sure I’m right and then there were the boys she sneaked in her room, while I was sleeping. I’d wake up in the morning and run into a strange guy in the bathroom….her new IPSS for the moment, or two weeks, whichever…no, that had to stop, especially after telling her this is not her hotel room. She had to go and she still thinks I’m the b#@&*
            The s&%@* I dealt with and tried to reason with, I was a doormat, until I wasn’t anymore. My Savior kicked in, when I got good and angry, and enough of her bs. That was trying to put up with and be flexible and nice. Doormat.
            I’d rather have a cockroach. Xx

          2. WiserNow says:

            Cockroaches are easier to deal with than narcissists, for sure. It’s so annoying, when someone you live with leaves messes for others to clean up. It shouldn’t be something you have to explain to another adult.

            I keep things clean and make sure food is stored well to avoid bugs too. The insects I find in the house the most are daddy-long-leg spiders, especially in summer.

            When it comes to the word ‘Doormat’, I think it’s a derogatory and judgemental label. It’s only one word and it’s not all that descriptive as a definition. It doesn’t describe a person’s traits or temperament objectively or in a way that’s scientific or psychology-based. In general, I think when people hear it, they understand it in a stereotypical and negative, shame-based way, automatically depicting a derogatory image. I think a better term or definition would be more humane and helpful.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            It is an excellent description, it conveys precisely what it is intended to convey and indeed that is likely to be perceived as derogatory, negative and inducing-shame in those who are doormats for a good reason. Words are used to serve a purpose. The day we stop using words because they have a negative connotation or that they paint a derogatory picture is to dismantle what language is for. I recognise that there are those who are attempting to do this already, but words have the effect they do for very clear reasons. There are times where jolting language is exactly what is required, not a mincing of words and dancing around a subject.

          4. WhoCares says:

            I recognize my own Doormat-ish qualities – they are not extensive – but it’s a reality in *certain* ways…I see them for what they are, and the term is accurate.

            I am not a doormat in my legal matter – although it gives me anxiety to stand my ground, at times, in that arena – I have witnessed where it’s been advantageous previously, so I can usually surmount those fears.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi WC’s,
            I’ve had the thought, when considering the Doormat, that I also had elements of it at times. I think it was mostly when my Carrier was triggered, though not always. HG’s recent reply to a question indicating that the Doormat is an element of Empaths, generally I take it, made sense. Like you, there are times it is not evident, even when I am fearful.

          6. WiserNow says:


            With respect, I knew this would happen. Don’t ask me how I knew, I just had a feeling that either you or someone else would object to my thoughts about the word ‘doormat’.

            Okay, I shall endeavour to explain my thought process …

            Consider a benign word like ‘headache’. If you had a persistent headache for more than a week and you told your IPPS, “I have a headache that won’t go away,” she would understand that you had a headache. If you told your colleagues, neighbour, family, the taxi-driver, the waitress, another 100 people that you had a headache, they would all know and understand that you had an aching head.

            Would any of those people know why? Would any of them know how to resolve your headache?

            The word ‘headache’ would be a reasonable way to convey a message and the word sounds harmless enough that no-one would object to you using it. However, to better understand and to formulate a clear and precise method for you to resolve the underlying condition causing your headache, the word ‘headache’ as a noun is not a satisfactory word.

            If you went to a doctor because of your headache, the doctor wouldn’t just say, “Oh, I see, you have a headache. Why are you coming to me for such an obvious condition. Go home, take two aspirin, lie down and in two hours your headache will go away. Simple.”

            Instead, the doctor would delve deeper to ascertain more scientific ‘evidence’ of what is causing your headache. He/she would consider in detail whether it was a: migraine; tumour; concussion; skull fracture; infection; swelling because of fluid; a ruption of a blood vessel; or a bump because you walked into a door.

            If the doctor found out from tests that it was a tumour, for instance, even more testing and detail would be needed. The location, size, position and matter of the tumour would need to be ascertained. Can the tumour be surgically removed? Does it contain blood vessels or not? Does it contain brain matter or not? Would surgical removal severely risk your life? How old are you and would removal severely impact your future quality of life? Etc etc. These and other questions.

            Therefore, the word ‘headache’ is a perfectly valid word but it doesn’t tell you very much and it doesn’t adequately resolve the problem.

            Take another word, this time less benign. Take the word ‘evil’. Again, another perfectly valid word used in everyday language. You, HG, started off your blog with the overarching banner being the word ‘evil’.

            To explain the word ‘evil’ in terms of it being used to describe human behaviour, you have written numerous books and posts; narrated hundreds of videos; and moderated many thousands of comments. Think about all the words used to explain that little valid word ‘evil’.

            Evil is a word that jolts people; it strikes fear and terror into people. Does it help to explain the causes and underlying condition of narcissism and psychopathy though?

            In the early stages of this blog, people described their thoughts about what caused ‘evil’ and there were outlandish explanations like ‘being possessed by the devil’ and ‘being a reptile’. Such explanations can jolt people, but are they helpful or constructive? I don’t think so.

            Take yet another word that is rarely used, unless it is used by certain people. I don’t even like to write this word because I am wary of the reactions I may get. To be clear, I am writing this to illustrate a point only. I mean no disrespect or offense to anyone. I truly hope my point is understood by readers and not taken the wrong way.

            Take the word ‘nigger’ for example. It is a word that jolts people. It is also a word with a history that is very hurtful and offensive and it is, rightly, no longer used in everyday language, unless it is used in a specific way by people who can actually be hurt and offended by it. It is a word no longer used as it once was, but has that “dismantled what language is for”? By not using it, does that mean we are “dancing around a subject”? Personally, I don’t think so. I think it is no longer in use for distinct and positive reasons.

            Words are important and the effect of words is important. I agree with you on that point. I am not saying that words should be banned in some kind of ‘woke’ way. That is not what I mean, at all. What I mean is that words should be used with more clarity and thought. The meaning behind the words is important and the superficial ‘knee-jerk meaning or stereotypes that words convey are not enough for deeper understanding and awareness.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I now have a headache.

          8. WiserNow says:

            I can see why, HG. Your reply made me laugh.

            Thank you for your patience while moderating and also for your sense of humour. Both are appreciated, especially because you have time constraints and a preference for brevity.

          9. Jordyguin says:

            I’ve ants in my room once a year they appear in spring in one particular place where there is a grout crack from the wall to the floor. I place the boundary with a line of perfume to bemuse their senses to not move further. It’s like „This is my dance space. This is your dance space“. I love ants! Annaamel is right, I want to tame

          10. HG Tudor says:


          11. WiserNow says:

            I’ve never thought of ants or any bugs as ‘beasts’. Now that you say it like that, I guess they are lol. And by ‘bemusing’ the ants with perfume, you are ‘taming beasts’.

            Are you ‘taming’ them though? Or, are you redirecting their instinctive behaviour, thereby temporarily confusing them? Once they adapt to the perfume, they will carry on with their initial instinctive behaviour. Therefore, you have not ‘tamed’ the beast, but rather, you have changed the beast’s external environment.

          12. Rebecca says:

            HG and WiserNow,

            Thanks HG for agreeing with my name calling of myself. I was being a doormat, WiserNow, not a better word fit what I was to my stepdaughter and the worse things is, my narc husband allowed it, disregarded my complaints to him about her and basically said to me, deal with it, she has no where else to go. Ok, not my fault her own narc mother doesn’t want her in her home and her last three boyfriends are , at the time, waiting on court dates with her being the abuser of them. So, I was , in all perfect description, her doormat. I think she left some mud on my cheek….Anyway, the good thing is, I grew a pair and sent her packing, a big explosion of temper, on my part, and she was out! I also kicked her brother out about 22 months before her. They lived with us separately and I packed his stuff and left it on the front porch. I had enough of his bs, and I guess she thought she could , treat me badly because I felt close to her. It’s probably why i put up with her bs for so long, doormat for her. She thought that’s all I was because I put up with her dad’s drinking for 16 years. I was his doormat too.

            Now, HG and WiserNow, none of the stepkids walk on me. My stepdaughter talks to me with respect, more than she shows her own parents, she doesn’t give me her bs now. Her brothers, I don’t need or want to talk to, so I don’t. I don’t talk to my husband’s stepdaughter either. My husband’s brother’s, one is in jail, until trail, the other I have nothing to do with. Cutting out the drama, one person at a time. Snip, snip, snip..I’m not the doormat for them, this doormat is faulty, I just won’t lay down and take it anymore.

            Thanks HG. Xx❤️❤️ Thanks WiserNow, I know what your intentions were, but really I’m fine with calling myself a doormat, when that’s what I was acting like, at the time. Xx

          13. Rebecca says:

            Hi Jordyguin,

            The ants, they’re so unique, they follow a scent trail left by the ant in front of them, how they stay in single file and don’t get lost, so you using perfume, destroys that scent trail they need to follow each other as a group. Smart of you to use their own survival technique against them. Reminds me of the Borg, the ants group mentality 🤣 xx But, you using their own survival techniques against them is a bit like how a narc uses our trauma and traits against us. Thanks for your comment xx

          14. Jordyguin says:

            Wiser Now, Rebecca, *🐜♡

            lol, they do though stay where they are. I give them enough space so to speak. It’s a very small tribe and they are rather tiny, I never saw them expand in number, perhaps due to the starting spring phase. Oh yes, they break the perfume line at times but only in a scout fashion and go back to their „dance space“. It’s really interesting. They chose to spend their time along that wall section for about one month, chill, exercise, meet & greet. I understand it in the way, they need the stable warmth and some ground to run their feet upon whilst the temperature outside can still drop. Later they retreat to the outside and I don’t see them again. The house is old and is made out of big red clay bricks. It’s a very comfy material for them to overwinter and they found the entrance to me, so this lil beasts have my respect and support. They’re the cutest in the morning. Sleepy and slow moving. Now they are somewhere out there, yolo their year. ahh

          15. Jordyguin says:


            HG Tudor is!

          16. Anna Plyance says:

            “I now have a headache.” HG, is it the sort that could be cured by one of us coming over to cool your brow and offer our tender ministrations or would the headache go away faster if you gave me a good kick in the backside?

        2. Witch says:

          I buy and keep roaches, feed them and then feed to my lizard. I have now got to the point where I can pick up Dubia Roaches by hand and I find them to be kind of cute, I’m still getting used to Madagascar hissing roaches because they get a lot bigger and thicker, so I can’t bring myself to pick them up yet.
          I made the mistake of getting giant lobster roaches once… they can climb smooth surfaces, they are fast and they jump! Two of them escaped but luckily they came out at night and we were able to suck them up the hoover and rid of the bag

          1. Rebecca says:

            I had a pet Praying Mantis, as a kid, and I heard they’re related to the cockroach. I used to feed it other bugs, it seemed to really like moths. I also had Garden spiders, the black and yellow ones, I used to feed them grasshoppers and I’d watch them spin their web. I found bugs to be interesting and I didn’t have an issue holding them or feeding them. I wouldn’t be able to feed a snake, they need mice, rats, rabbits and other small animals and I just wouldn’t be able to feel a live animal to a “pet”, but I guess I do that with dog food. Somehow it’s more doable in a can. Odd, isn’t it? Xx

          2. Jordyguin says:

            Witch, you’re getting “Indiana Jones Temple of Doom” ready. Will be a snap for you to walk those tunnels and traps.

          3. Witch says:


            I’m okay with some insects. It depends.
            I also feed locust to my lizard but rarely because they are freaky looking, I don’t like them, they are smart and they stare at you. If I do get them, I don’t bother to store and feed them, I just open the box in the enclosure and let my lizard deal with them so he ends up getting 20 at once because I’m not brave enough to handle them.

            I thought about getting a black Brazilian tarantula because they are cute, fluffy and shiny.
            But maybe when my lizard passes because I don’t have time for another pet.

            I have a snake but he doesn’t eat live and it’s illegal to feed live rodents in the UK. I get them frozen and thaw one when it’s time to feed. He’s had, mice, rats, one day one chicks, and frog legs

          4. Witch says:


            I have really bad balance so I would probably fall to my death

          5. Rebecca says:

            Hi Witch,
            I’ve had salamanders before , turtles, frogs , crayfish etc. I used to play in the creek growing up, catching all sorts of critters. I brought home a siren ones. It freaked my mother out. I’ve had alligator snapping turtles too. I was living in Tennessee, when I had Sam, my alligator snapping turtle. I had three Sam’s, each one got stolen, so I just kept naming him or her, Sam. That’s funny I did that. Anyway, I’m very much into critters of all sizes. Thankfully I didn’t live around any elephants, as a kid. I would have brought Dumbo home with me. My mother would have really flipped. 😆 the image I’m getting ….😆xx

          6. Jordyguin says:

            Witch, naaa I catch ya! Bring all the zoo with you!!! I’ll bring the perfume! Rebecca, bring the radio!

          7. Witch says:


            Are you sure they were stolen or your mother got rid of them? 😆

          8. Rebecca says:

            Jordyguin and Witch,

            Ok, I got the music! Now where we going again?? 😆 🤣 I have the worse sense of direction, so don’t make me the leader. I’ll have us going in the wrong direction and we’ll never find the crystal caves of doom. 😆 xx

          9. Rebecca says:

            Last summer I went to a State Park with a huge lake and they had an explosion of these special red cicada and they were drowning in the lake. We rented a boat and I went out on the boat, scooping up the cicada in my hands and putting them on the bed of the boat. They kept flying off and falling back into the lake. I kept trying to save them,but I was wasting my time, seemed they were determined to drown themselves. At one point, I had them crawling on my arms, drying off their wings,before they went on their last suicide flying mission. I thought, well, at least the fish and turtles will eat well. I tried to help them, I can’t help stupid, I guess. I took pictures of them on my arms, that beautiful red they were, had to capture that beauty. Xx

          10. Jordyguin says:

            “Ok, I got the music! Now where we going again?? 😆 🤣 I have the worse sense of direction, so don’t make me the leader.”

            lol!!! All roads lead to 🏰Tudor Towers🏰 🌟

          11. Rebecca says:

            Yes, all roads lead to Tudor Towers and if we don’t go by my directions, we won’t get lost. 😁 Though, if we do get lost, then HG might find us on the wooded trail in his lands….we don’t have a basket of cookies, do we? You know what happened to the last one with a basket of cookies and I think she’s still in the dungeons. 😆 xx

          12. Rebecca says:


            You’re probably right, my mother probably did get rid of them. It didn’t occur to me that she would do that…You’re probably right.. all the Sam’s I had were baby Alligator snapping turtles, they were so cute and reminded me of Godzilla with their bumpy dinosaur looking shells and tails. Godzilla would have been a better name. 😆 🤣 They liked grasshoppers the most. The things I got into and still do. 😆
            Last Friday, no joke, came home from work and found a day old kitten in my grass. It had been there for a while, baking in the sun, she even had flies on her. I thought she was dead, I thought she was a bird at first. I squatted down to her and on closer inspection found her breathing and I quickly scooped her up and took her inside. My dog was not happy, but used to me bringing in stray animals. I quickly worked on cooling her off, it was muggy on Friday here. Used a damp paper towel and lightly rubbed her down, it was lukewarm, so not to shock her. I held her and started making phone calls and talked to her and rubbed her soothingly. I got her a home within an hour and took her to the Vet Office, where the Vet assistant wanted to take care of her and keep her. I wanted tonkeep her, but I knew inwouldnt be able to bottle feed her every two hours like I did before, when I was in college. My work schedule just won’t allow it. So I gave her up to someone who could take care of her. I felt like crying, I get attached so easily to defenseless animals. The lady said, I could call and ask to see how she’s doing and I could come and see her, whenever I wanted to. I think she could tell it was hard for me to give her up. I think she was a fellow empath, she was so happy to have her and it made me feel aglow inside. Made it worth giving her up, to make this lady happy. Xx

        3. Rebecca says:

          Why do I have the cockroach song in my head now?…cockroach, cockroacb, if you come to me I’ll squish you, I think that’s it in English. ?? 🤣😆xx

          1. Leigh says:

            LOL! “La cucaracha, la cucaracha.” Is that the song you’re talking about? My father would sing it all the time. He would talk to them. I like talking to bugs too. Not cucarachas though. LOL!

            No cockroaches for me, thank goodness. Instead we have spider crickets. Those mofos are ugly! Luckily, my kitty cats take care of them, lol. They like to pull of the legs. Poor Jiminy.

          2. Rebecca says:

            Hi Leigh,

            😆 Yes! That’s the song! 😆 I know spider crickets, we get them, when it rains real hard. My dog likes playing with them, they don’t make it to round 2. A friend of mine calls them “moon crickets” because they look so weird, he said.
            This reminds me of a fellow student, who ate a cricket for $5 and then , he said, it tasted minty. I’m glad it was during Science Lab and not lunch. 🤢😄
            I really don’t have problems with any bug. I’ve even walked through a spider web, it was dark, couldn’t see it, but when I felt it on my arms, I just brushed it off. It was funny because MLSOMATIC freaked out, when he got some of the web on him. 😆 🤣 What a wus. I guess some narcs aren’t the baddies they think they are. I just found it funny. Xx Sharks are a different story, I can’t even watch a shark movie without getting terrified. I’m a wus 😆

          3. Leigh says:

            Omg! By me, the sharks have been so bad the past couple of years. We just had 5 shark bites in one day across 5 beaches. Each year it gets worse and worse.

          4. Rebecca says:

            I think the warmer weather is making them more aggressive or more hungry. I stay out of the ocean, as much as possible. Sharks are a major fear for me.

    7. Joa says:

      Damn me! Very accurate! I see myself here, in my schools, ha ha ha 🙂

      And my sister too 🙂


      According to the systematics created by HG, I belong to the CoD school in 52%. Partly I looked here, but I’m leaving this thread for free time. A very interesting discussion for me. Thank you.

    8. WhoCares says:

      “They think about other people and definitely feel bad for them but giving an opinion or expressing a strong feeling is not nice. They like being nice.”

      The Standard Empath in me says, “Really? Tell that to my ex in court.”

      But – wait, that’s gotta be the Super in me speaking…

    9. Contagious says:

      Annamel I spit my coffee out laughing at your descriptions. There is accuracy in them. As a Contagion, I see it. Yet somehow you look at these character traits in a weak fashion. For example, the abilities to know or a heightened intuition has helped me in my career in law and raise two amazing children and own a million dollar beach property on my own. Children and animals flocking to me are a joy. Yes it can be a pain in the ass too. One mother said to me if my daughter is bugging you too much let me know. I said I write children’s books for fun, raised two wonderful children and your daughter is precious but if I need to tell her I need to make a call or take a break I am able. She loved it. Of course! I help my community by giving her a break too. And yes, I retreat to nature. Nature is as beautiful as visiting a museum. God is the best artist. Look at flowers, birds, bunnies. It’s beautiful but since I am an empath I have lots and lots of loved ones. Not an hermit. And I don’t know what narcs or psychopaths feel when you die, but most others feel that what made life feel the best was relationships. Who they loved and who loved them. Not the material . As for bugs, I would gladly kills mosquito or mango worm with pleasure;)

      1. annaamel says:

        ‘somehow you look at these character traits in a weak fashion’

        True, Contagious, but that was the point – to describe them all negatively. It relates to some earlier conversations.

    10. Candied Pansy says:

      It’s funny but kinda true about my main school! Each person has their own empath makeup and history. Even if people share a main school, they can still vary in other schools, cadres, strengths, traits, etc.

  10. Candied Pansy says:

    Hello Contagious! You can say Catholicism and Protestantism are two denominations of Christianity, but some devotees on both sides say otherwise. I was Protestant on both sides, casually evangelical. Yes most religions seem to have at least “do unto others as you’d have them do to you” and a few other principles. Can believing in one religion make one lean on narc traits, dismissing threats to control that may prove the religion wrong? It’s rude your friends roll their eyes at you, because you’re pointing out what they have in common. Some equate faith with closing your eyes.

    I’d like to believe in love, and sometimes to believe everything has a purpose or plan. I get stuck on things like “babies get cancer”, the family guy scene where Bin Laden gets saved by Jesus last second, yet an atheist doctor who saved kids her whole life would go to hell (the doctor wasn’t in the scene, just an example). My church is chill, but it has the core of “if you don’t believe right, you’ll be tortured in hell forever”. What do you think of near death experiences? Many conclude that we’re all one and the afterlife is lovely. Some claim their religion is true whether they see a heaven, hell, or both. Some claim to have found out a different one is true.

    Yes all empaths have emotional empathy, including CoDs (maybe they have too much for narcs sometimes and not enough for themselves). It is “you have it or don’t”, like you mentioned being pregnant or not.

    I haven’t taken the EDC, so I may not be an empath, or not as CoD as I think. Maybe Contagion (do you have Contagion?) makes me sensitive, or Carrier keeps me stuck in FOG (fear obligation guilt). Thank you for being positive. I need to grow ovaries and take the EDC. I don’t want to lose HG and getting to talk to everyone.

    Fun fact, some genetic test said I’m 100% likely to show lower perspective taking. “Perspective taking is one of the dimensions of empathic traits and it refers to the ability to understand a situation from another person’s mental state such as beliefs, desires and intentions. This concept is comparable to that of “Theory-of-Mind” which is vital during the developmental process. While disease-specific empathic deficits have been identified in several psychiatric conditions, recent research has also established a considerable variability of empathic dispositions in healthy subjects.”

    Thank you for commenting and replying to me. I appreciate it.

    1. Contagious says:

      Hi Candied! Thanks for the reply and may I add support. I don’t believe atheists go to hell. I know against the rules of some. I believe that God works through nonbelievers as a light or love. And that’s the common denominator I see in all the prophets it’s do no harm. It is love. You should do that he test. My money is on empath! I also don’t know why bad things happen to innocents. I watched the Sound of Freedom. I almost joined United Nations as a young lawyer to help children. The fact child trafficking is up 5000% because of social media sickens me. It’s a 150 billion dollar industry. Gods children are not for sale. But why? I don’t know. But it’s not love. It’s the opposite. I asked Elon on Twitter to live stream the message. Something must be done. Why does God allow this? I don’t know. But know there are predators. Are they narcs or psychopaths? And there are many. Nothing could be more destructive. Yet why does it proliferate so readily in a world of military, police states , technology that could stop it? Are lost abused kids not a social policy that should be top of the list? But it’s rarely in any debate? Maybe this film will give a rise! As to contagian yea, but am. Why I chose the nam. I have standard and some tiny percents in Martyr and geyser . These make sense by profession as a lawyer and the others I guess if situations arise . Do the test! Join the empath community! Hugs!

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hello Contagion,

        Thank you for replying back and sharing thoughts on love, suffering, etc. I struggle with all of that, hell especially. Purgatory wouldn’t be so bad, a temporary punishment according to what you did or didn’t do, then off to heaven. Most people with power to stop things like child trafficking either don’t care or benefit from it. The few who try to stop it are sabotaged. I’m sure you know more than I do, you being a lawyer. I can see that what you shared of your empath makeup would compel you to help others, especially suffering innocents.

        I took the empath detector. I’m in the club!

        Among other things, I have a standard majority, a small contagion minority, a martyr majority, and a geyser minority. It’s nice to know we have a few things in common, in differing strengths. I hope HG will let me share that.

  11. Jordyguin says:

    Help me out with this to understand The Codependent’s Curse, better.

    In Chained, what was going on in HG’s victim (CoD) mind whilst she was pursuing new victims for HG and observed their coupling and what resolved later out of it?

    What did she feel towards those victims?

    Was her empathy eroded in order to understand that they will suffer later or did she understand?

    Or did she realise and it didn’t matter to her? And all what mattered was her abuser and his wishes? Empathy and allegiance only towards him and the fulfillment of her own needs in order to get back to the Golden Period i.e. find the missing pieces of her identity in his construct, on behalf of the abuse of others. How did she described it in her mind? (normal behavior?) Was she aware that she participated in abuse? If yes, how did she explain it away?

    Is this behavior something only a CoD would engage in because of the an ’unfinished narc’ constitution and would other schools intervene to not let get it that far or is CoD’s school stronger in this instances?

    Would a Standard, Super, Contagion get to this point as well upon narc’s abuse of them or is there a difference?

    1. Contagious says:

      Hi Jordyguin: I don’t know if this will help or not…my guess and it’s a guess is that Cod is ingrained or hardwired but not incurable or HG would not recommend the detailed ways to understand narcs and to go N/C. You asked so I will reply on my own experiences. As a contagion, you know. You love the golden period but things don’t add up. You ignore the inner knowledge as you feel compelled to fix the situation then in time you succumb to the truth. You ignore the words, you feel the manipulations and recognize them and you retreat. You become numb and an observer but also protective like watching your dogs when a coyote is near. You go to nature, to love, to loved ones, to others with hope, to things you love and balance the dark with the light. I don’t think we become hermits who eat nuts but I would say I like to detach from negativity. It’s draining, unnecessary drama and pointless. There are other people and other things that I can put my energy into to achieve my sims which is to better the world around me. I guess by retreating you leave the chaos, but it’s self preservation and by being an observer and someone who puts her energy to the best use there are ways around to it. Knowledge is power. As a standard empath and a lawyer, I can point to resources to victims of narc abuse. Last week at the dog park, a woman approached me as in a long term marriage her ex would cut off all financial control. I told her how DV in the area provided free attorneys and this was a form of DV abuse. Of course she experienced all forms along the way. I gave her a referral to an affordable but good family lawyer but she was so excited to learn that there were free DV lawyers and she would qualify for only now experiencing financial abuse. I gave her references. Of course how lucky am I to be the helper? I am not rooting my own horn but giving an example that there are active ways to balance wrongs too;)

      1. Jordyguin says:

        Thank you!:))Yes it helps!♡

  12. Candied Pansy says:

    On a light note, has anyone seen Secretary (James Spader, Maggie Gyllenhaal)? I just recalled the actual pissing. Can you tell someone to basically end up that way and not be a narc? Would only a CoD obey to that degree? Is Spader a narc or just good at playing them?

    1. Leigh says:

      Candied Pansy,
      This is a really good video on how the mid range narcissist operates.

      Mr. Tudor,
      Thank you for posting it.

    2. annaamel says:

      Comment from J to LET
      ‘you have convinced yourself and continue to put it indirectly in to your replies to others that I’m a narcissist. Note, it’s just you and no other who is engaging in this.’


      There are others who’ve insinuated that you’re a narcissist, it’s not just LET.

      There seems to be a tendency amongst some empaths to interpret directness, dark/dry humour or assertiveness as narcissistic. NarcAngel would probably agree that she has been accused of being a narcissist in the past on the blog because of her directness, dry humour or assertiveness, and in this thread both you and I have aroused suspicions and hinted accusations.

      It’s poor form, imo, on a site like this to casually imply someone is not an empath. Particularly if that person has been participating for a while and a broader picture has been created by their posting. Anyone can have behaviours which might fall on the narcissistic side of the spectrum. But using dark or dry humour or being assertive and direct or even being critical are not narcissistic traits. What are narcissistic traits are showcasing (look how wonderful and good I am) and haughtiness (I’m right and you are not). I’ve seen those traits in this thread. But I still don’t see those behaviours as meaning someone is a narcissist.

      I sometimes see posters in here I suspect are not empaths. And I don’t base that on seeing narcissistic traits. I base it on whether I see honest and real empathy for others. Those I suspect could be narcissists are those I don’t ever see genuine and consistent empathy from.

      I wish it wasn’t the case that we devolved into insinuations of narcissism when we’re pissed off or hurt or feeling the urge to set the world to rights and correct others we believe are wrong but I don’t know if it’s avoidable. Empaths are imperfect.

      1. Jordyguin says:

        Annaamel, yep, we tick similar.

        I agree with your last paragraph, I don’t think it’s avoidable and will occur periodically, no matter what. Readers arrive here in differing moods, states, energy. Active entanglement etc. which can heighten emotionality, the n-traits, exploitation of the e-traits and so on.

        For me NarcAngel is a cool breeze mastering the heatwaves with clarity and ease. On the blog and in her private life, fragments of which she shared. NA is here from the beginning of the blog, along with others and that’s just very cool on many levels!

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I do agree, as that has been the case. There can be a tendency here to find what one is looking for – good or bad. Emotional thinking at the helm, but of course no one wants to cop to that.

        1. Leigh says:

          Two of the three bloggers that are questioning Jordy aren’t even ensnared so how can it be emotional thinking?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Emotional thinking is not just confined to the narcissistic dynamic. Most human being engaged in emotional thinking, i.e. being driven by feelings when making decisions rather than logic.

          2. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor,
            To further my understanding, I have a follow up question. Do you think the three bloggers that are questioning Jordy are making decisions based on emotional thinking, rather than using logic? Thank you for your time.

          3. A Victor says:

            My comments about my daughter did come from an emotional place, I will “cop to” that. It does not mean they were incorrect.

            Following comments I made were from an emotional place, as I watched seemingly unprovoked attacks happening on bloggers that I respect and (emotion incoming) like. Maybe I missed the provocation, I don’t see everything on the blog, I did read this thread though and didn’t see it. If there were previous provocations, I owe Jordy an apology. Knowing what I believe about LET, I have found that hard to believe. But I, as proven by many of my life choices, am often wrong.

            What I am feeling now, more emotion coming, is that this blog is not a safe place. It “feels” like a place that is safe as long as you do it “right”. What is right? No emotion, no defense of opposing thoughts, one perspective allowed only? That’s not what I thought it was for the last many months. You did tell me HG, who and what you are, and also that the blog was safe. Now I have had my most impressive lesson yet, and I thank you. It will not be a lesson soon forgotten.

            I am ever so grateful for the blog, the people here, the knowledge available. Whether a person is a narc or not can at times be a moot point. If someone is toxic, even if they have empathy, there is no need to interact with them. True of CoD’s as well as all others. When we feel frustrated by a CoD, we can make choices. When we feel frustrated by others, we can make choices. If we choose to stay in the interaction, we should not complain. If we choose to leave it, we can move forward freely. If we choose to complain, we could choose to see that the words we use, the way things are stated in our complaint, could be offensive to others. If we don’t choose to realize this, is it wrong then that others take offense and state that? Should they be “shamed” that they were the ones using emotional thinking? Was not that original comment perhaps also emotional thinking? And, possibly somewhat also intentionally inflammatory? We can’t say that second bit for sure but it felt that way to me.

            Going forward, I will attempt to use only logic when I comment. I’ll fail and someone will point it out, that’s okay, it’s all about the learning. But when I then see emotion being used by others and excused, it will reinforce my recent lesson about the blog. Still grateful, now also sad.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thank you for this honest and insightful comment. I agree with the thoughts you are expressing here. I did not respond to the original “cop that” comment because I knew emotional thinking would be part of my response. As you say, the provocation in such a statement lends itself to an emotional response. Probably what started this whole unfortunate set of interactions in the first place. You said you would “cop that” with regard to expressing thoughts and feelings around your empathic daughter, and no doubt I took up the mantle for any number of empaths in expressing my original thought as well. I dislike and also reject the attempt to apply emotional thinking to one set of responses and not the other in this thread. The thought of only applying logic implies there should be no emotion attached to interactions, and I disagree with that as well. We are emotional creatures, empaths especially responsive in this sense. HG makes a distinction around emotion and emotional thinking, sometimes it can be hard to know when we cross from one to the other. I do believe there is a balance to be found, but further provocation is not the way to find it. It is about the learning, and personally I have learned quite a bit from this thread which also lends itself to a certain sadness. Really appreciate your input, AV.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi LET,
            It is sad to me but I have no doubt that there are some who are enjoying it.

            For clarification, the initial comment, in this thread, that I was referring to which I momentarily thoughts may have been coming from an emotional place and also a provocation, was the pissing one. Though there are several that have been more subtly provocative since, “cop to that” being one of them.

            I agree with the need for balance. Still working on that piece. There is no shame in that.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thanks for that clarification, and we are referring to the same comment.

            I am also a work in progress and appreciate your thoughtfulness and feedback.

          7. Jordyguin says:

            Leigh, what you do (did) is not questioning, it’s something else…
            You three did different things, but apparently united under the same flag…

            Leigh says: „My super has kicked in and I’ve drawn a line in the sand.“
            ? ? ?
            *looks around for the super kick… don’t see any… still air… nothing moves…


            …maybe supi not super…


            You’re good Ms Leigh, no matter what…I like the LOL’s I see you’re having here and there ;)) I just hope you saved the Super for the real deal where you’ll need it, much more than with me…

          8. Leigh says:

            Just to clarify, I was fine with our conversation about CoD and victim vs victim mindset. I decided to stop interacting with you because of the below comment:


            I don’t take lightly to people throwing my words, choices or life in my face. I don’t care if you’re an empath, normal, narcissistic or narcissist. Once someone throws my words, choices or life in my face, I’m done.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            My comment was not specific to this thread. Annaamel referred to past discussions on the blog where people have accused myself and others of being a narcissist.
            “tendency here to find what one is looking for – good or bad” was in reference to the blog as a whole and not this particular discussion.
            The comment does not have to be taken negatively.
            For example:
            I see people gravitating and interacting with others in a positive manner on the blog as “finding” the good, because that is what they are looking for. They are more likely to make allowances for things that person says because they have formed a positive opinion of them. They may even consider themselves “friends” and it is important to some to have that person think positively about them.

            Do I see that is emotional thinking? Yes, and I include myself, because we do not really know the people who post here in real life where we may have a completely different experience. Empaths are emotional people, so referring to emotional thinking does not have to be considered a sleight, but it certainly seems to evoke that reaction. It can, (and does to me) mean that we may be making a decision or statement based on something we project onto what is unfolding. On what WE FEEL rather than what has actually transpired.
            This does not mean that we must become logical robots (another extreme bandied about), it is pointing out that when we can temper our emotions to consider ALL that is involved instead of jumping to our immediate reaction, we can make better informed decisions that not only have bearing on our interactions regarding narcissists, but with everyone.

            I don’t see this as a place where it’s necessary to take “sides”.

            People find me good.
            People find me bad.
            Doesn’t change who I am.
            That’s a matter for them.

          10. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your response.

            I do agree when referring to emotional thinking it does evoke a negative response. For me, it means I’m not thinking clearly and not seeing the facts. It means I’m thinking with flawed logic.

            Undoubtedly, I had an emotional response to this whole thread. I do actually see my emotional thinking & flawed logic now. I also realize that your response to Annaamel was in general and not specific to this thread.

            Your comment was very patient and understanding. Thank you for that.

          11. A Victor says:

            One great thing about the fact of us using ET is that it is confirmation that we are actually Empaths.

          12. Leigh says:

            I don’t know, AV. I think narcs suffer from ET too. Their need for fuel will often make them gullible and unable to see things clearly and so they don’t think logically. Think of a narc that meets an empath and then right away thinks he’s in love and met the love of his life. That’s not logical thinking either.

            I don’t know if I’m right or not but Mr. Tudor’s comment that all humans can suffer from ET, really got me thinking.

          13. A Victor says:

            Oh yes, thanks Leigh. Forgot this.

          14. Jordyguin says:

            Fun fact Leigh,

            your inability to ’be done’ and to know when to stop and when enough is enough, was the reason for that comment of mine in the first place. It had nothing to do with the conversation of victim vs victim mindset, and had everything to do with all the other comments you’ve produced by that time when I had enough.
            The conversation victim vs victim mindset is actually the one which began to take place and what I consider a normal conversation/debate should be, compared to what you’ve engaged in prior to that.

          15. Jordyguin says:


            „If there were previous provocations, I owe Jordy an apology.“

            Yes to the first part, and no problem at all, to the second. I could see how it all happened and where you were taken on board and by what… I’ve engaged with you in conversations since the last year and it was always thoughtful on your side. And remained thoughtful till the end. All good, no problem.

          16. A Victor says:

            Jordy, I did not see prior provocations from LET to you. I said IF I had seen some, I would apologize. I did not so…no apology needed.

          17. annaamel says:

            I count ten (direct and indirect) provocative comments to or about Jordy made between the 13 the of June and the 24th of June, which is when I saw the first signs of disrespect in a reply from her, where it was clear she was feeling anger and frustration. After she became angry, I count eight more comments that seemed unnecessary and provocative.

          18. A Victor says:

            I have not seen those. And I no longer care.

          19. Jordyguin says:

            Leigh… your question to NA („Two of the three bloggers that are questioning Jordy aren’t even ensnared so how can it be emotional thinking?“) gives me an insight to the indicator of why we would have faced errors in all our communications…We looked at the elephant from very different perspectives…more different than I thought it to be (not good not bad) just different in some perspectives. For good reasons. We work on different areas of understanding, but it will have the same outcome eventually.

            Survivor can be a good word, I agree. Target, as suggested by NarcAngel would be in fact the more accurate one, for my thinking as well. Even more than the word victor. Just as the word victim, the word victor has a flavor of finality which can be delusional. As a Target, however, you remain awake and alert and can never rest on laurels. You never know where the ’sniper’ hides and it will push you to keep your sights wide open, which is more in accordance with the spirit of an adventurer and explorer. It inhabits victories and defeats, but this two stations don’t stop you from exploring and moving forward and polishing your skills.

          20. Jordyguin says:

            „Probably what started this whole unfortunate set of interactions in the first place.“ … “The thought of only applying logic implies there should be no emotion attached to interactions”

            This perspective ⬆️ is but an emotional one…

            You take too much on sometimes. Too much of a burden of having it all figured out for others. Thus you may jump to conclusions way too fast, which I agree can be seen as unfortunate BUT you can’t learn walking, can’t learn ’balance’ without falling. Falling is the very part of balance. So it don’t make sense, in a bigger picture, to see things as unfortunate… Logic on the other hand would bring more light and ease to the emotions. The more light emotions would appear if logic would be applied… The very seriousness is the very heavy type of emotions, which slams you to the ground beyond necessity and remove agility… Logic helps to lift off..

            if it makes sense..

          21. NarcAngel says:

            You’re welcome Leigh. Thank you for asking for clarification, and for considering my subsequent response with intent to understand.

            HG’s response nailed it as usual.

          22. Jordyguin says:

            NarcAngel, thank you so much for your comment and this words!

            People find me good.

            People find me bad.

            Doesn’t change who I am.
That’s a matter for them.

          23. WiserNow says:


            The words you are quoting can be used in a wide range of contexts or situations. Depending on the context or situation, the validity of the words (or their relevance) will change.

            For example, if one person tells another that he or she enjoys walking in the rain without an umbrella, the other person may be of the opinion that it’s unpleasant to walk in the rain and get wet. It doesn’t make all that much difference to either person though what each one thinks of walking in the rain without an umbrella.

            In the case of a different situation, say a parent tells their adult son or daughter that he or she should become a Scientologist and thereby follow the long-held family tradition or be disowned. In this context, it is less straightforward to say that the son or daughter’s decision to follow in the parent’s footsteps doesn’t change who the parent is. The meaning of the words “doesn’t change who I am; that’s a matter for them” becomes murky and questionable.

            In the second example, fellow Scientologists will think the parent is ‘good’ while those against Scientology will think the parent is ‘bad’. In the meantime, the son or daughter may be traumatised by having to make a decision that could result in being estranged from their family.

            In a third example, consider a case of a mass shooting where the gunman has a personal issue with an organisation. The gunman decides to storm the building of the organisation’s office. In the course of the shooting, a number of people in the building are injured or killed.

            In this case, there may be people in a wider context who agree with the gunman and have the same personal beliefs and there may be others who do not. The various opinions don’t change who the gunman is. That does not mean that the gunman can or should go ahead and act on his beliefs because the opinions of others are a matter for them and don’t affect him.

            It makes me think that context plays an important part in how relevant the words you have quoted are. The opinions of others do change who a person is to the extent that the person’s reputation or likeability will be affected. That means that who that person is will change in a social group according to the opinions of others.

            The specific ‘matter’ in question also plays an important part because it could be a benign matter without serious consequences to others or it could be a situation that has very serious consequences.

          24. Jordyguin says:

            A Victor

            Oh I see, I thought you meant Lickemtomorrow ongoing provocation towards me and Leigh’s and your participation in it, regardless of all my explanations and comments regarding the initial *pissing* comment, a month ago. You still hold on to, regardless of what I and others write and share.

            Mine initial comment was not a provocation in the way you want to make it look like, in the way you happen to interpret it. We are very different in seeing this and it will not change.

            I am understood on this thread by NarcAngel, Annaamel, WiserNow, Witch, Isabelle, Rebecca, AspEmp, Bubbles, Candied Pansy, Contagious and HG.

            It matters more to me than being misunderstood by you three, after all.

            Very simple. If you or Lickemtomorrow or Leigh continue to smear me directly or indirectly and provoke me, because you don’t like or don’t agree or don’t understand my comments, you’ll get my reaction back. If you don’t respect me I will not respect you back, regardless of your age, empath status or other. If you manage to be respectful, I will respect you back.

            As you wrote previously and demonstrated it, you don’t have the desire or interest to continue. I can’t continue to give my time to you either, but I will find time if you continue in whatever nature of the conversation you want to engage in. I don’t shy any confrontation or other, as you must have realised by now.
            What you want to PROVE to me is that you are right and I am wrong. What I want to PROVE to you is that it’s not the case.
            We have different perspectives. I can live with it. You can debate of course WHY you think I’m wrong and I can answer to that and vice versa and we can spend another month on it, and another, and another. But actually you three have found a clear and simple explanation – narcissist. All fine. Go out, dust yourself off and have fun. Whatever works for you👍

          25. Jordyguin says:

            A Victor says:
One great thing about the fact of us using ET is that it is confirmation that we are actually Empaths.”

            Actually this words of yours is an excuse of not wanting to change…

            There is not even a tiny little GREAT thing in having an ET. In the end it leads to destruction, abuse and suffering. For yourself and others.
            You haven’t truly grasped what ET is…

          26. Jordyguin says:

            Annaamel, thank you (for counting those) for paying attention!♡

      3. Contagious says:

        Agreed no one is perfect. But you need to have the confidence of who you are! Be who you are! You are unique, enough, special. I related a lot to the empath detector. It made sense. Eleanor Rosevelt once said no one can make you feel bad about who you are but you. Own it girl! Forget the rest! A flower does not look at other flowers when it blooms, it just blooms! And I believe in a form that allows and respects disagreement otherwise it’s about control. I found your post likable and funny as I stated previously. It had some accuracy but I disagreed and explained why. The sharing of information helps us all here. Hugs!

    3. annaamel says:


      It’s an excellent film.
      I think it’s possible, yes.
      Yes, but perhaps not in the sense of HG’s classifications.
      Both! But his character in Secretary is complex & imo not definitively a narcissist.

  13. Candied Pansy says:


    Please stop fighting each other. Disagreement is one thing, but I see people terminating contact, and feeling like they or their loved ones are being painted as basically narcs. That’s not right.

    I’m the original fire-starter who asked if CoDs and some narcs looked alike. It was because I’m afraid I’m a narc, and MY OWN BEHAVIORS look like either how some CoDs can be at their unhealthiest, or midrange and/or victim narcs. I’m dumb, hence why I nag HG so much.

    HG told me “don’t work about it” which I think means “don’t get worked up about it” or ‘don’t worry about it”, but I can’t. I’m new here, but my greed for answers is tearing people apart.

    I’m saving for an empath detector. If I say I’ve taken it and that’s my last comment, you’ll know I’m a narc, likely midrange school and victim cadre. I’ll sulk and withdraw. If you see me again, I’m not a narc and I’ll let you know what I am. Maybe that will shed light on unhealthy CoD vs narc.

    I’m either sorry or think I’m sorry. Just know that it’s my fault, not Jordy’s. Thanks for reading.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      Candied Pansy, I obviously need to respond as I’m the one who put a boundary in place and became the most heated in light of this discussion. I think Leigh was right when she suggested Jordyguin’s response caused more confusion, and one of my ultimate concerns was that empaths (regardless of what kind) were being painted as pathetic. This is generally a narcissist’s perspective on empaths, hence my original response. I was also concerned that either way (and I’m sure you’re not a narc if asking the question – Am I a narc?) the comment was a ‘takedown’, which doesn’t really help the victim of the narcissist. We already beat ourselves up enough.

      Those were my impressions, they haven’t changed, so I’ve limited my response. I understand you are trying to work something out in your own mind and I think the empath detector is a great idea. It will clarify once and for all, including how empaths end up questioning themselves about being the narcissist. We all have narcissistic traits that can be on display at various times and, no doubt, this a point of reflection for me at this time.

      You don’t need to be sorry, and if I thought this was a mere disagreement to begin with I might apologise, too. On a rare occasion I don’t see it that way, so I thank you for sharing your thoughts. All the best on forging ahead with your detector. I’m sure we’ll see you back here.

      1. Jordyguin says:

        Pansy, I translate.

        What Lickemtomorrow really meant is:

        Live under water and don’t breathe until you’re ED positive. Then she’ll part the sea and take you by the hand to the holy lands of empathy, where the rivers of love flows, trees of wisdom flourish and fruits of compassion grows…

        I swear Lickemtomorrow you’re on my radar forever, I’ll tease you till someones mighty virtual hand will press my mouth shut…

        (a joke)

    2. Rebecca says:

      Hi Candied Pansy,

      You’re OK, don’t blame yourself. Disagreements happen, it’s human relations, we all argue, fight etc, I’ve been where you are, when I first came here, I thought I was a narc and I didn’t understand I had a narc mother, had the narc addition and the imprinting, conditioning from childhood. You’ll figure it all out and get your answers here, and you’ll grow in your knowledge and understanding of what happened to you, who you are and you’ll have more questions along the way. HG will have the answers for you. I hope you get your answers , it all comes in time. Xx

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hi Rebecca,

        Thank you for your kind comment. Some of the conversation went past disagreement and I hated that long-time commenters got upset at each other. All I can is say I started the question from my insecurity. What people do with that is on them. I’m sorry you thought you were a narc and weren’t aware of having a narc mother, addiction to narcs, etc. I suspect my dad’s a narc. Thank you for being supportive. I’m glad HG and others here have answered your questions, and hope to sort myself out too. 🙂

        1. Rebecca says:

          You’re welcome Candied Pansy. I hope taking the Empath Detector helps you feel better about yourself. I know it was a relief to me, I was so worried about being a narc. When I first came here, I was very angry and hurt and clueless of who I was. I’m still a work in progress, but at least , most of the time, I’m sure of who I am. You’ll get there and probably go past where I’m at now. You’ll be OK. Xx

    3. A Victor says:

      Candied Pansy,

      Please don’t concern yourself with people’s reactions to Jordy’s comment, that’s on her, not you. But I have a feeling you still will.

      Maybe this will help. I do not interact with some people here, by intention. Sometimes it has been stated, some not. But it wasn’t always that way. There was a time when I thought that in order to be polite I should always respond. But at times I’d see odd things, behaviors, comments, thinking, whatever, that would make me wonder what was going on. Or, less commonly, I would just not get along with someone. At some point along the way, HG said that we are not obligated to speak to anyone that we don’t wish to here. I needed that permission apparently, I am a “good girl” (outwardly, inside I often buck) who doesn’t always get that some things are okay until I have been given permission. I am working to overcome that but it is very hard. Sometimes I don’t even realize that thinking is at work. But, back to the subject, it’s really fine that some choose to not interact with others. Being more discerning here has helped me do so in real life also. So it’s a good thing. So please don’t feel bad.

      1. Rebecca says:

        Hi AV,

        I do that at work, double check with my supervisor, if something I’m doing is ok to do. For exapmple: When I’m in a project and I notice something doesn’t work right, with the way it is on the plan, I’ll bring it to my supervisor’s attention and ask him, if it’s OK for me to change it. He’s happy I ask, but one time he told me, you don’t have to ask me, I trust your judgment, go ahead and change it. The next time, it happened again, I changed it and then later told him I changed it, just to make him aware of why and how I changed it. He was pleased, much to my happiness and delight, and said to me, you’re getting more confidence in yourself! Doesn’t that feel good? He said it with a big warm, smile, which made me beam with happiness that I pleased him. I noticed AV, that I feel happiest when I make others happy, or at least please them. I can see now, that I’ve been that way, since I can remember, but anyway, I know what you mean, when you talked about needing permission. I’m like that too, even to the point where I’d ask to go to the restroom…my supervisor laughed and told me, you don’t need to ask. Xx

        1. A Victor says:

          Oh Rebecca! You get it! That’s exactly it, asking permission, apologizing etc. I have spent far too much time being worried about overstepping! My boss is like yours, wants us to step out and make decisions. He’s had to learn that when we do, he can’t be upset if it was a different decision than what he would’ve made. But he’s been really good about that also, so we’re all learning! I’m glad you have that support and encouragement at work! That we both do!!

          1. Rebecca says:

            Hi AV,

            Yes, it feels good to get what another person is talking about and actually find that I do the same thing, made me giddy with happiness and a warm glow of acceptance grew in my heart. It’s really great feeling to be understood ɓy another. I’m glad we get each other. Xx
            I got my EDC results back, I’m waiting on HG’s permission. I know, I just feel I know me better now and wanted to correct answers given on my part. Xx

          2. A Victor says:

            Rebecca, you did the EDC again?

          3. Leigh says:

            Is this your third time doing the EDC? I hope you bought it during the 50% off sale, lol! You’ve piqued my curiosity. I wonder if there’s been a significant change.

          4. Rebecca says:

            Hi Av,
            Yeah, I did the ED again. I feel I know myself better now, have a better , accurate view of myself and what changed, was what I expected to change, that’s all I’ll say, until I hear from HG regarding permission. Xx

          5. Rebecca says:

            HI Leigh,

            Yes, it’s my third time doing the EDC, I feel I know myself better now and wanted to get an accurate result the best of my ability. I’m just waiting on HG’s permission, or not. Xx

  14. WiserNow says:

    All the talk of ‘pissing’ in this thread has made me remember an incident that happened years ago to someone I know. I’ll call this someone my ‘friend’.

    Before you all assume this happened to me, I want to stress that it didn’t. I say that sincerely – I am not talking about myself.

    Years ago, this friend (a young woman) was walking along the front of a row of shops. She was walking on a path between the shops and a row of parking spaces. The path divided the shops from the parked cars. There was no railing, only a curb at the edge of the path. The parking spaces were such that cars were perpendicular to the row of shops, with their headlights pointed at the shop windows, rather than being parked parallel along the side of the pathway.

    As my friend was walking along, a car was turning into a parking space right at the time my friend was directly in front of the car. At that moment, the driver must have lost control because the car lurched forward over the curb and onto the path, lunging at a high speed right at my friend. The driver slammed on the brakes and stopped within inches of colliding into my friend. If the car hadn’t stopped it would have pinned my friend against the wall or window of the shop on the other side.

    My friend got such a shock at that unexpected car lunging at her that her fright and fear made her wee herself uncontrollably. She was in shock and frozen to the spot.

    There were passersby that stopped and the driver of the car got out. They all went to my friend’s aid and made sure she was safe and they helped her recover from her shock and fright.

    At that moment, I don’t think anyone would be angry or annoyed or frustrated at my friend for ‘pissing’ herself. It was a totally understandable reaction in a life-threatening situation. It was also a spontaneous bodily reaction that my friend had absolutely no control over. When my friend told me about it, I was very compassionate and felt very bad for my friend in light of the fear and shock she must have experienced.

    If anyone had laughed or mocked or blamed my friend at that time, that person would be the one who would be considered ignorant or heartless.

    Also – and this is the absolute truth – this ‘friend’ I know is a narcissist. A Narc Detector consult from HG has confirmed this to be the case.

    I think this is quite an interesting memory and situation considering all the aspects that have been discussed in this thread.

    1. Rebecca says:

      Hi WiserNow,

      I’m glad your friend didn’t get hurt and I’m glad she had compassionate people around her, when she needed it. Xx

      1. WiserNow says:

        Hi Rebecca,

        I’m glad too. It was a close call. It makes a big difference too when there are supportive people nearby at a time like that 🙂 x

  15. Jordyguin says:


    on some other thread just recently where you and I also had a pleasant and mutual understanding, you wrote to Annaamel:

    „I appreciate your reply, and it would be perfectly fine with me if you wanted to challenge my opinion. That’s the beauty of our individuality, also the necessity of sharing our perspectives – to create greater understanding. I also accept it was a combination of things that prompted your response.“

    To write to me to save my breath to not comment upon your reply regarding my comment is contrary to what you are doing yourself, partly in a challenging style, expressing your views towards mine, which also turned out to be of a challenging nature initially.

    I highlighted a behavior I found frustrating in an empath of a majority or minority Codependent school, to which I certainly also belong because I see it in myself as well, sometimes manifesting or not. We all are no saints and are not supposed to be. Yet empath’s role is expected to be that of a saint or martyr or such, as we were conditioned to perform, also bagged up by our emotional palette further highjacked by our emotional thinking. Along with it comes also ’the victim’ in the behavior and mentality which is no good for us or others.

    The manner in which I put my observation was a compressed one, done in the comparison of a certain unflattering nature. For the benefit of ’short’ I put the behavior in a row, but it is rather a manifestation over a longer period of time. Is just how I see it.

    I’m not going to reverse the style or the comparison I chose in that particular moment where my reply formulated and was expressed. I also explained more of my view in other comments and same was done by other readers who could relate.

    My views are also in accordance with the positive aspects some of you are more focused on by nature of your interactions and character, where you already may be more successful with, than me or others.

    I don’t judge the behavior of *pissing* I despise it. I can’t stand it. It’s unnecessary, hindering, a waste of time and energy. I want to get rid of it every second I see it in others and myself.

    This forum and the topics are not the easy ones. It is about unmasking the behavior of human conditioning and overcoming it in order to lead more fulfilled lives and it all stems from an individual who is HG Tudor and who is unmasking the behavior of his kind and ours. Furthermore opening about himself, naturally without fear or expectations of being liked or understood.
    I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t be allowed to do the same. Share what my thoughts are on the matter where I put my time and effort to examine and understand, in a style which I choose in order to draw a comparisons of a particular behavior and receive either an understanding for what I share or not.

    I don’t expect you to agree, understand or like. I can express my understanding and goes about of the topics and engage in your understanding of them or be corrected by HG or you where you see an error on my part.
    I’m not going to suggest to you to save your breath or ’not buying what you’re selling’ and switch to character assassination, because your view, insight, age or mentality differs from mine. And I don’t disagree that what I wrote is an easy one. You may disagree or don’t like what I express or don’t like my contribution or my character or whatever it is. All valid. All your choices to respect. I can take your insight, criticism, disagreement or other verdict and try to deal with it constructively. And I am also pleased to find similar minds to mine or views in your responses I also agree upon.

    I found many comments useful to read and contemplate about.


    Dear HG,

    thank you for the moderation of all my comments and what resulted out of them.
    I apologise if my contribution caused a mislead about aspects of your work, on which I couldn’t express and reflect properly or didn’t understand fully to be able to do so.

    1. Leigh says:

      I know you’re not addressing me in this comment but I can’t contain myself right now. My Geyser is erupting all over the place. This is the piece that I just can’t get passed. In your original comment, you did NOT describe a CoD empath. You took pieces of a CoD empath’s behavior and exaggerated it. Can a CoD empath be taxing and draining? Yes. But not to the degree that you describe. What you’re describing is a mid range narcissist, not a CoD empath. Your description is cold and callous and insensitive and most importantly, inaccurate.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Leigh, once again we agree. It was a ‘hit piece’ on CoD’s and I’d be interested to see any future ‘hit pieces’ on Standard Super or Contagion empaths.

        Where confusion has occurred, it’s normally because the person is not an empath.

        There is a dividing line between those who are empaths and those who are narcissists. Even if they are sometimes hard to discern, no empath school deserves to be taken down in the manner that has happened in this thread.

        1. Leigh says:

          I agree. No empath school deserves to be taken down in that way. Its one of the reasons I dug my heels in.

          I also saw that Candied Pansy was struggling. Her comments read like she feels guilty and ashamed. I was trying to make her feel better too.

          Hopefully we can put this to rest now.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            More or less ‘done and dusted’ on my part, Leigh.

            I’m in agreement with everything you have said, and thank you for being another voice of reason on this thread. Digging your heels in is what you need to do sometimes, too. Time to move on 🙂

          2. Jordyguin says:

            „Dusted and done“, and still there are layers of layers remained on that shelf of MO, rooting from jealousy and envy, driven by possessiveness and inverted ownership, you Lady backstabber operate. Smear and fake empathy is the first thing you jump at, whenever your holy mask can’t stand the pressure of what’s beneath it.

        2. Jordyguin says:


          I realised no matter what I say or do, you have convinced yourself and continue to put it indirectly in to your replies to others that I’m a narcissist. Note, it’s just you and no other who is engaging in this. When it comes to you (since you are convinced) no matter what I say or do it could fall within the behavior of assertion of control of a narcissist.
          If I continue to tell you I’m not a narc – denial. If I continue to apologise – false contrition. If I try to explain – word salad or magical thinking etc. (true in that btw, I put too many trains of thought in to my explanations and keep in mind english is my third language, I’m still learning it). Asking questions – asserting of control by asking questions. If I agree with you – assertion of control by agreement. Walk away – assertion of control by withdraw. And so on and so forth.

          You have your ED results so you’re on the good side so to speak and must be right. Feels good doesn’t it?! I haven’t mine done yet, though I purchased it a while ago.

          But let’s assume I’m a mid-ranger or I don’t know as what exactly you’ve diagnosed me — and though HG has no allegiance to his brethren, but my ED results would come back truthfully as for instance: you’re a mid-ranger.

          What does it mean for me then? To look up all the material on mid-rangers and what next? Deny all of it as a mid-ranger should? Or agree that I’m a mid-ranger and again what next?

          I’m almost one year on this blog, reading the articles, the archives and new entries. I’ve read Fuel, Fury, Chained, Sex, Ask1-2, Sitting Target, Confessions 1-3, Evil, A Delinquent Mind, Black Hole, From the Mouth of a Narcissist, Treasured and Tormented, Adored and Abhorred and other books are on the reading list. I listened to many videos. Purchased other products from the Knowledge Vault. … And then Lickemtomorrow came along and told me what it is that I really am.
          Thank you Saint Lickemtomorrow! I saw the light!

          1. annaamel says:


            You purchased the ED but haven’t completed it/submitted it? I’m going to give you the annaamel assessment then.

            I personally have no doubt you are an empath. I think you’ve got a lot of Super in there – maybe 70% or more. I suspect some CoD and perhaps Contagion making up the rest.

            For your cadres I suspect Magnet and maybe Geyser and Carrier.

            I’d be very interested to know how far off I am when you get the results back.

          2. Jordyguin says:

            Annaamel, hi. Haha that’s an interesting assessment though. I’m surprised by the percentage :)) We’ll see…I think you might be close…I thought perhaps more of the same percentage of each school..

        3. Jordyguin says:

          In your response to NA (June 21, 2023 at 11:30) you assumed that the Mid-ranger B is the Overwhelming Angel. In the next sentence talking about wrong impressions creeping in for those not familiar with the distinctions more apparent here in HG’s categorisations.

          Middle-mid-ranger A is is The Overwhelming Angel. Can also be found in Middle-mid-ranger B and Lower Middle-mid-ranger B. But mainly in the Middle-mid-ranger A. This terminology and distinctions are everywhere if you are listening and reading. Why do you have to assume.

          You knowledge on distinction and categorisations to avoid confusion are not as impeccable as you want to believe or present. But who cares, right. You’re untouchable because you have your ED proven to you -you are not a narcissist. You are an empath – the best of them all. Your absolution to distinct should not be questioned. Or only if you allow it and invite from those you choose from your list of those who are verified by the ED to be empaths. With others you can be pleasant on one thread and in the next second turn around and hiss you’re a narcissist, save your breath scum.

          I begin to see further facets of why some people with a Codependent school and Mid-rangers can be hard to tell apart, as questioned in the initial comment.

          HG Tudor says:
          „It takes time for people to learn the differences but it is entirely achievable. You are correct to identify though that they do appear similar.“

          It’s not just the true goodness or false goodness that can appear similar. It can be all the narcissistic traits as well.

          1. A Victor says:

            To LET,

            I am so sorry you are bearing the brunt of this, I do not agree with what is happening here and I do agree with your opinion of the situation. It’s being proven time and again. Thank you for being strong enough to stand and speak truth where it needed to be spoken. I hope you are okay.

            A Victor

          2. Hi AV, thank you for your thoughts and I am fine, though sorry to have upset the applecart for those being impacted by this conversation. That extends to HG who has been moderating the commentary. I really appreciate your kindness and willingness to step forward, too.

          3. Jordyguin says:


            Lickemtomorrow’s truth on certain aspects don’t stand a chance, since she don’t know me and can’t diagnose me based on comments only. On some other aspects I agree with her views and understandings of things.
            To mention the truth in relation to the situation is again a point we can discuss about endlessly. It will be relative. I have time and breath.
            En garde, monsieur!

          4. A Victor says:

            I do not have time. Or desire. I am moving on but will say in parting that our comments here, especially over time, can be highly indicative of who and what we are.

          5. Jordyguin says:


            Narcissists abuse people and can commit horrible crimes. To insinuate that someone is a narcissist will eventually lead to resistance against this labeling for different reasons, empath or not.

            In most cases BOTH an empath and a narcissist came from abusive circumstances, but apparently in some people’s worldview, one is deemed more worthy than the other, and obviously the damage performed by the latter can be substantial, thus the insinuation ’narcissist’ was used in order to elevate the self and an opinion, and defend the self and an opinion. All further expenditure on my part were irrelevant for this particular person.

            Comments here, especially over time, can be highly indicative of how you assemble your worldview and how it changes, or not.

            All the comments and insinuations don’t really matter and do matter because it’s a learning process.

        4. Leigh says:

          I’m very sorry for what’s happening here. I had my part in it too and yet the upset over it, is being directed at you. I should’ve kept my mouth shut. I sincerely apologize.

          1. Leigh, please don’t apologise. I took a stand and don’t regret it. Your support for the concerns around CoD’s has been much appreciated <3

      2. Jordyguin says:

        Leigh, lovely! Yes I took pieces of a CoD empath’s behavior and exaggerated it, you are correct. This is not a CoD I described on June 13th. Today is June 24 !!!! Dear, you oughta send me to hell by now and think of your wellbeing! I will reread Chained and re listen to the CoD video and will reflect of not being cold, callous, insensitive and most importantly, inaccurate. I will try and pay more attention, promise! If I fail I don’t mind being send to hell if that makes some feel better. In a good company there will I be, if you know what I mean.

        Love you, Leigh! Thank you for bothering with me and remain on the positive and searching for justice and understanding and wanting to help me understand and bringing accuracy in to this matter. Thank you for your concern and effort about the CoD’s and empaths in general. But please also take care of yourself and don’t take it too much to heart for such long periods of time if an inaccuracy appears.

        1. Leigh says:

          I don’t wish you to hell. I don’t feel that strongly about you either way. Should I have let it go by now? Probably. There was a new blogger who was confused. She needed help, not more confusion. That’s why I dug my heels in.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            That was also what I mostly took from your replies. You wanted to help and resolve the confusion you perceived to exist in my thinking and not to brand me.

      3. Milkweed says:

        Prior to becoming more self aware of my own codependency, I would get overwhelmed with a family member of mine who is also codependent. (I believe). But looking back, it was unfair of me to do so. Because I was not setting boundaries and then getting resentful at the aftermath. Going through it while simultaneously educating myself has helped immensely. I think the “savior” portion of me felt like I didn’t have a choice but to help her: but knowing that she is her own person and she has to figure things out helps. It takes a serious level of awareness though. Because at times she kept overdosing from being heavily addicted to drugs. And then she would emotionally manipulate me when she had no place to go. After burning all bridges. It helped when I was able to find resources to women’s shelters so that I did not risk putting my family at risk with her risky behaviors and being around undesirable people. Once I had a plan in place to give her a “go-to” place when she would call me, I felt so much better. As good as you can feel with that situation. Turning my phone off at bedtime and setting call time boundaries also helped. This whole situation with one family member also shined a light on all of the unhealthy behaviors of most people I had/have in my life. It hasn’t been fun but… it has been really really hard with a huge emotional detour and speed bumps, avalanche, lions den… and more… still going… but the awareness has been a huge game changer. Also being able to absorb so many different outlooks from all types of people empaths, narcissists , normals, narcissistic has been so helpful.

        1. Leigh says:

          I’m very sorry that you had to go through this with your family member. You’re in the right place to get the answers and the help that you need.

          Good luck on your journey.

    2. Isabelle says:

      Hello Jordyguin,
      I reply here because I can no longer find the comment in which you say you are going to fill in the empath detector you have purchased.
      I am certainly no expert, but I for one would be surprised if you turned out to be a narcissist. If you are an empath, you may have a lot of “super”, or you may be a “normal”, which frankly is the most comfortable position in my view.
      I see nothing enviable to being an empath, probably because empaths are not so far removed from narcissists, and I don’t take pride in being an empath (and that’s a bummer, because pride is one of my main traits 😁).
      You have ruffled some feathers, but you are taking it in your stride and you stand your ground. I appreciate this in all cases.
      Let us know the results, if you feel like it.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Isabelle, great comment. Thank you for voicing to show without prejudice towards Jordyguin, it was good to read.

        1. Isabelle says:

          Hello Asp Emp, and thank you. I just didn’t see narcissism in Jordyguin’s comments, so I thought I’d chip in 😉

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Isabelle, I gotcha 🙂

        2. Jordyguin says:


      2. Jordyguin says:

        Isabelle, you’re so sweet, thank you. I like what you write…The ’ruffled some feathers’ made me laugh…I think I also teared some feathers out on couple of days…Perhaps have even more ’feathers’ in moderation somewhere, but I think I understood more of this whole topic for now…I don’t have an overview on all of the replies of this thread anymore and don’t receive all emails…Anyway, it feels good to have you and other girls energy around…♡

        1. Isabelle says:

          Jordyguin, kind of you to say I’m sweet! A friend of mine used to call me “the tornado”… Well, I have probably calmed down a bit with time.
          You certainly bring energy here, and in your replies to those you have disagreements with, you also point out the points of agreements you have with them, and this is very honest.

          Re anaamel’s assessment of you, I agree you will have geyser, and in your traits, argumentativeness (it takes one to know one, haha) – which is not a bad thing if you don’t use it with a narcissist.

      3. Contagious says:

        Isabelle I didn’t sagree. I think the world needs more empathy no matter what form it takes. Kindness is the greatest love of all.

  16. Candied Pansy says:

    Hi Jordyguin, I’ve been reading the comments, and saw HG’s video The Codependent’s Curse. Yes your first comment was harsh on how some CoDs can be at worst. I see why people got upset, but it should have been at me for asking if CoDs and some narcs looked alike. It was from my fear that I’m a midrange or victim narc, as I told Leigh. I’m sorry CoDs have been and felt put down. I asked HG if I should email about stuff like this from now on.

    “Why can’t you just make a decision and own the consequence of the possibility of not being liked?! Why do you have to manipulate everyone around you, to love you and to see you as a saint, which you aren’t, never will be and most important of all, don’t have to be?!!! Why do you give in to the guilt, which was placed on you, again and again?!”
    I don’t know Tabitha, but have been the person who can’t make a decision. My dad and Christianity convinced me I’m trash and should be grateful they endure me. There’s an instinctive knowledge that I’m an object, not a subject. My life isn’t mine. I’m a thing others use. I exist either to watch and cater to other people, or because I’m too selfish to “unalive” myself and stop being a burden. Not all CoDs (or midrange or victim narcs) will believe such things of themselves at all, let alone to that degree, or be aware if they do.

    The point is I feel that it’s bad to be “selfish”. It’s hard to go from decades of that, to seeing that erasing yourself doesn’t always please people, and can frustrate them. It’s hard to trust someone to not use a choice you make as proof you’re selfish, if a narc’s done it. Maybe some CoDs at their unhealthiest struggle with paranoia there, as narcs do. Maybe some have a “facade” of not having unwanted opinions, because they don’t feel allowed to have a self. A CoD is an unfinished narc, so they have a void they fill by giving, not taking. Giving can be erasing oneself, or laying oneself down to be walked on, if unhealthy.

    It’s sad what you said about CoD parents projecting their insecurities and hangups onto their kids, and doing things like unintentionally guilt tripping or smothering them, even if the kid doesn’t need what the CoD needs. I’m sorry if you have been on either end of that. So many parents give their kids what they needed or wanted, not what the kid needs or wants.

    I’m curious how many CoDs are in cluster C of personality disorders, esp dependent. I may be cluster C (likely avoidant and dependent) and have seen a theme of feeling “unallowed”. Has HG covered cluster C? I also wonder how often being raised religious will produce CoDs, for example Christianity where you are evil trash, deserving death and torture.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Candied Pansy,
      Your comment here is interesting to me on a variety of levels.

      Please don’t believe anything negative of this discussion tests on your initial comment, it was a very good question. It was a question I had not put together in that way before and I believe it is valuable to understand the difference and similarities of the maybe and empaths in question to have more insight to avoid the narcs. I was happy to see the question and give it some consideration.

      I relate so much to your feelings of guilt, being a burden, not being able to make a decision, feeling like trash, grateful to be endured and tolerated. And very much bad about being “selfish”. It’s so bad that if I think of myself, I am selfish. I also was not allowed to have a self. It my own thoughts. I also had the “Christian” component. My children today question my mom’s “Christianity” because of the gigantic gaps they can see in it. But being raised with no escape from it was no fun. I am sorry that happened to you. To me also.

      I do not know exactly how the CoD aspect affects all of this, I have none yet I have these similarities with you. But I do know that I hope you will not hesitate to ask questions, we can all benefit from them. HG is very much in control of what’s happening here, if he sees it as an issue, he will deal with it.

      The harshness is squarely on the person or persons who did it, not you. An opportunity to learn on a whole different level. I am thankful for that. And glad you are here.

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hi AV, thank you for replying and finding my comment interesting. No one’s blamed me, but I have to own my question. It’s good to know you found it helpful. I was fine with it and the discussion, until people started getting upset with each other and about themselves. Starting discussions is one thing. Destroying friendships is another.

        I’m so sorry you’ve had these feelings of guilt, being a burden, not being able to make a choice, not allowed to have a self, etc. It’s debilitating and makes you feel evil for wanting your own normal life. What a waste of life! You’re not selfish for thinking of yourself, but I can say so a million times and it won’t break up or through the seeing oneself as lesser. Same on having your own thoughts! Christianity is awful for that, with “my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are higher than your ways”, “the heart is deceitful, desperately wicked”, “lean not on your own understanding”. Like a narc, it tells us that even wanting our own thoughts is evil and means we deserve hell. How do you respect yourself and get away from narcs if you believe you don’t even have the right to your own observations?! I get angry thinking about how many people this destroys inside-out. Even now I fear, “Am I leading us to hell? Have I ever truly believed? Is this all for nothing?” You know. Yes conservative “Christianity” can have gaps, and it’s good your kids aren’t trapped in fear like we were. I’ve gotten a lot out of “religious trauma” and “good girl syndrome” content. Maybe you have or will too.

        I bet having CoD makes ‘religious trauma’ or not believing you have the right to be sovereign over your own life more entrenched. If you can have it w/o CoD, those with CoD may struggle more to change. Thank you for the blessing to ask questions. I’ll continue, at least unless HG tells me to stop, but stop comparing empaths to narcs.

        Yes HG is in control. I guess he doesn’t mind if his henhouse is clucking like crazy, (sorry if that’s offensive) but I mind the upset. Jordy’s example was harsh at best and it makes sense why people were harsh back, but I want people to know she meant to help me. The delivery was inflammatory, but the intention was good. Thank you for saying you’re thankful to learn and glad I’m here. I won’t run out of questions to ask (I have a list in a word document, sorry HG lol). Your and everyone’s kindness means a lot. Also, HG has been ULTRA patient and indulgent with me (thank you HG, really).

        1. A Victor says:

          I still have about a hundred unanswered questions in a Word doc also! I started with that many a couple years ago when I started talking with HG and more came to fill in when some were answered! It’s an enormous and fascinating subject. In the sense of being unbelievable when I first arrived and now to, okay, how to best share the world with them… I am so thankful for the opportunity to learn that HG has given us!

        2. Leigh says:

          Hi CP,
          I just want to address your comment about good intentions. A mid range narcissist will think they have good intentions also, but they really don’t. If someone’s intentions are good but they’re actions/behaviors are toxic, that’s a red flag. Be mindful of their words not matching they’re actions. That’s another huge indicator.

          You’re in the best place to learn. Mr. Tudor’s information is unrivaled.

    2. Jordyguin says:

      Pansy, the hurt of other readers resulted out of my comment, not yours.
      Important !see, you again taking the blame on to you. *Slap slap (*softly with feelings) ssstop it.

      „The point is I feel that it’s bad to be “selfish”.“

      The word selfish has a negative context to it from the beginning. It may be not the right word for you to use as an acknowledgement of your natural right to be yourself and worthy of your own existence how you see fit or want it to be.

      You mentioned the misuse of religion being part of the problem. Surely organised religion has the guilt-concept embedded in it. Imposed on the child there will be huge guilt manipulations within the mind. By the form of control via organised religion we are all guilty because we are faulty by design. Because of the Eve and the anchovies and the Goa’uld.. I’m not religious, but I’m interested in its historical background and conspiracy theories of what it is about. I know there are differences to the old and the new testament. The old has a narc’s manual in it, the new focuses on an individual, who probably lived and served an inspiration, but to what extent really is not yet clear. Many research on that. The morbidity of the actual institution, the church and what it did over history, who want to trust or rely on that.. I think good people make the best out of what they get and it serves and helps them in some way. But if it doesn’t help, don’t use it. (Some readers here are religious and usually religion is not touched. Otherwise second Armageddon. But from what I read how they perceive God, it is the positive source which gives them strength and light and not the picture some extremists paint and practice.)

      Anyway, you still must read Chained to understand from HG what CoD means in his description. You might also need to look up the „Quick Calm“ series to assist you when you face various problems. Definitely consider to consult with HG. I mean look at the girls feedback! Also you won’t be just a CoD but also other schools, right.

      Parents give their best. Unfortunately they can mistake sometimes what is best, but that is naturally forgiven. Being a parent is the hardest job in this universe, given the circumstances. They gave it all how they understood it (or not if there was a disorder). To correct the errors is on us if we can see them in us. HG describes how a CoD is created in Chained and what it means.

      I’m not familiar with cluster C information in HG’s work. Maybe others will know about the CoD’s and cluster C.

      But you sound quite aware on what weighs you down. Perhaps have already identified the chain of events where one thing (thought or behavior) leads to another.

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hi Jordy, yes people got hurt by your first comment and I get why, but you were trying to help, and based what you said on your experiences. I started a smear campaign against the empaths who smother their own spirits most and need the most help to leave narcs. *you made me laugh out loud, I accept the soft slaps*

        In this case, “selfish” means “having the right to my own thoughts and over my life”. Even that has been a decades-long, really life-long struggle. You may be right that it’s the wrong word. Maybe sovereign is better. I think I used it in a reply to A Victor.

        Religion taught me that I don’t have the right to direct myself. My main church is chill, but some core bits of the faith mixed with my dad’s brainwashing, his insistence that he was good, his family backing him, my mom and her family being smeared. I can’t disagree or leave, or I’m “bad” like my mom and God will torture me forever. That’s my core, my version of HG’s creature. AV and I have just discussed Christianity a bit. Not sure what comments will be up if/when this comment gets posted.

        Yes many organized religions have the guilt-concept, along with the faulty by design concept you mentioned. Christianity has both. I’m not 100% opposed to guilt, if it stops people hurting each other. It doesn’t stop the narcs from narc-ing, and many non-narcs form hurting themselves and each other. You’re right that religion is used to control. HG has said it’s a narc tool. I hate that doubt is a sin, if you aren’t satisfied with certain answers. I feel like Eve, being “bad” by not trusting what I’ve been told. A lot of people can’t reconcile the Old Testament with the New. Others have answers, like Israelites saw physical miracles God did for them, but they’d burn babies alive and make objects to worship when Moses was gone, so yeah God’s angry.

        In a way Jesus introduced a more individual approach, such as whoever believes is saved no matter your tribe, and the spirit matters more than the letter of the law. After Jesus left, there is a lot of community and “y’all should do this, not that”. Look at the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc. to see what people do in religion’s name. Yet like you said, God can be a positive source of things like healing, strength, etc. Sorry I turned this comment into a huge Christianity rant. I’m not here to start another war.

        Yes I must pick up Chained. It would answer questions. I think my mom would benefit too. I’ll look at the Quick Calm series. Haha HG might set an actual fire if he hears me for an hour! It’s last resort. Doing EDC and NDC would answer a lot. I’m scared my dad’s not a narc, because it means I can’t cut contact. I’d likely have some standard, unless I’m 100% CoD, and then the cadres have their own influence.

        Many parents do their best, and most won’t have the awareness that we do. They know what they know, and usually don’t hurt on purpose. It’s when they knowingly hurt that’s harder to forgive. There’s a saying like, “It’s not your fault, but it landed in your yard.” Yes the older I get, the more I see things planted in me that I need out.

        1. Isabelle says:

          Hello CP,
          I have read some interesting considerations in your message about what religion does or can do to an empath with the concept of guilt or faulty by design.
          However, you wrote here surprised me: “Others have answers, like Israelites saw physical miracles God did for them, but they’d burn babies alive (…) so yeah God’s angry.”. I am not religious and not well versed in the history of any of the testaments, nor the actual history of Jews (or Israelites, as you say) at the time when the Torah was written, but what you wrote there has always been presented to me as unfounded smearing of the Jews/Israelites, and one that has fuelled antisemitism for eons. But you might have more accurate information than I do: in what reliable source did you read or hear that Israelites burnt babies (alive)?
          Tahnk you in advance for your answer.

          1. Candied Pansy says:

            Hello Isabelle, my point with “others have answers like ancient Israelites sacrificed babies” (WHICH I’M NOT SAYING IS TRUE) is I’ve read and heard answers for everything in the Bible, like “Why did God have x tribe annihilated?” Whether any of those answers is true or not, I don’t know.

            When I made that comment, I lived on a stupid planet where I can spew such things and expect everyone to realize I’m not agreeing with it.

            I cited a horrific example without thinking of the impact it may have.

            I can’t say it’s founded, or if so, where legit info is. It was something my father said (red flag), and I don’t recall what the source is.

            It’s my job to filter out his words before I comment. Thank you for being so polite. I’ll drop comments on what any people may have done, since I’m not confident anything my dad says, especially if it smears a group.

        2. Isabelle says:

          I meant to write “thank you”, of course.
          And I hope I didn’t misunderstand your original comment, or interpret it wrongly. Sorry if I did.

    3. Leigh says:

      Ita not your fault for asking the question. Mid range narcissists can appear to have natural empathy and it can be hard to spot the difference. You’re here to learn and asking questions is one of the ways you cam. No one was upset by your question because narcs can appear genuine in there empathy. Bloggers were upset by how negatively Jordy described the CoD empath. We all have issues. I’m obstinate and confrontational. But that doesn’t mean that every standard empath is the same. Jordy didn’t make a fair assessment and I think many of the empaths on here wanted to point that out.

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        Hi Leigh,
        I’m comfortable asking questions, as HG knows, maybe too much. It was fine until I saw people feeling bad and fighting. Yes Jordy’s example was at best of an extremely CoD empath, on Prince Harry’s level. It’s no wonder people got upset with that.

        It’s hard when midrangers appear to have emotional empathy, plus bad things happen to narcs, like someone’s friend who almost got hit by a car. Even empaths have narc traits. Thank you for saying no one was upset with me. No one said “bad pansy!” but when people who have been here for years are angry at each other and terminating contact, you look at the common or first factor. I have to own my role.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi CP,
          I’m actually glad you asked the question because your question and the subsequent responses, shined a spotlight on some things that needed to be seen.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            I’ll shine a spotlight for you, Leigh. You and Lickemtomorrow are sharing the same dorm in the university of „empathy“ and whilst Lickemtomorrow is a rat for reasons other than wanting to help the empath, you really think that you’re helping by repeating the same three sentences again and again.

            I’m having a month of dejavue with your responses, Leigh. Leigh’s greatest hits of „How Not to Say Anything and Nothing“ playing on repeat. You just came from another stage where you gave the same concert and it was the same program all over again, on that particular thread begging for attention, until a bunch of people had to appear on that other thread and shake you awake and NarcAngel’s straight clean stake sealed that empty coffin. But it’s like nothing happened and you tugged that thing along here. And you’re again standing on a same spot yet thinking you’re moving worlds by ignoring obstacles in your own programming and repeating that they’re not there, pulling on the same string again and again in order to remain addicted.

            Yes, you are a good person and you are a victim for different reasons and when told about that *pissing*, you think, you’re a victor by digging those heals in denial.

            Again, it’s just my view I CAN SHARE AS EVERYONE CAN and I don’t need YOUR CORRECTION because you don’t really have a meaningful one other than IT’S NOT LIKE YOU SAY Jordy. Regardless of what I say, I don’t wish for you to agree or understand and I said that MANY times. You just don’t get it and don’t stop to beg for attention. Like that dog you mentioned, you feel sometimes.

            Do what you want with it. Ignore it for your own „benefit“ and run after the same ball again and again by saying you just here for others, who you think are too stupid to understand or what? Have you even read and grasped Candied Pansy’s comments and level of awareness??!! She is capable to see things you can’t!!! She is capable to point out in the first place. And you want to help her. HELP YOURSELF first. I’ll give you that attention.

          2. Leigh, my turn to ask if you are OK. You don’t deserve the ‘tongue lashing’ you are getting here, and don’t need to answer to anyone with regard to your current circumstances. My advice in this instance would be to take the path of least resistance which is the one I have taken also. Your input here is appreciated, regardless of the insults being hurled in your direction, and no one can take that away from you. Stay strong. “This too shall pass.”

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi LET,
            I’m good. My super has kicked in and I’ve drawn a line in the sand. I won’t engage anymore. I’m kicking myself just a teeny bit because I wish I saw this comment she made before I sent my comment about victim vs victim mindset. Live and learn. Yes, this too shall pass. .

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Yes, it will. It’s definitely the Super that draws a line in the sand. It comes with a recognition that it’s necessary to disengage. Raising a glass to living and learning!

          5. annaamel says:

            ‘I’m good. My super has kicked in and I’ve drawn a line in the sand. I won’t engage anymore.’

            This is not super, Leigh. It’s avoidance.

            There are no narcissists in this thread to remove yourself from. They are fellow empaths putting forward a view different from yours. They are pushing back when you denigrate their opinion and assert it is incorrect.

            Earlier you put a question to j to which she gave a detailed response only for you to say to her you didn’t know how to respond. You could’ve engaged with the ideas she’d raised, but you didn’t want to do that. Your question had been rhetorical. It seemed like an innocent question but it was an indirect criticism suggesting you thought her understanding was faulty.

            Jordyguin is showing super traits in this thread. She’s listening to others. She’s acknowledging correctness from all participants. She’s not talking about whether she’s a victim or has a victim mindset. She hasn’t mentioned those she’s disagreeing with indirectly in her comments to others, she’s directly confronted those involved. She’s not abandoning the discussion when it gets heated or she’s criticised.

            I can see merit in leaving this thread but not in calling it a Super move. Even if it’s a self protective move, it’s an avoidant move. It’s important to own that and not see it as something more noble than what it is.

          6. Leigh says:

            Ok Fair enough. I’m avoiding and that’s my right to do so.

          7. Jordyguin says:

            „You don’t deserve the ‘tongue lashing’ you are getting here“

            The Hypocrite of theYear Award, goes to you, Lickemtomorrow.

          8. Jordyguin says:

            „I’m kicking myself just a teeny bit because I wish I saw this comment she made before I sent my comment about victim vs victim mindset.“

            ’I wish this or that (for the past)… and would have done or not done this or that…’ = A VICTIM MINSET.

          9. annaamel says:

            ‘Ok Fair enough. I’m avoiding and that’s my right to do so.‘

            It absolutely is. I’ve got super in my make up too but pretty early on I opted to give this thread a fairly wide berth. I could see its potential to do damage – both to me and to others.

            I want to respond to the qn you posed to HG.

            ‘Do you think the three bloggers that are questioning Jordy are making decisions based on emotional thinking, rather than using logic?’

            I think you, AV and LET have all become emotional due to the content of comments and this has increased with the responses to your responses. The reason I say that is because you’ve all displayed what I’d say is disrespect to other posters, either directly or indirectly. I know from reading many of all three of your posts, that you are not disrespectful when you are not emotionally invested or affected. You are all polite and kind and understanding.

            The only times I’ve seen any of you become other than those three things is when there’s been a controversial or emotive topic under discussion or there’s been a perceived criticism (or you or others) which has led to a heightened response.

            I don’t think you three are the only commenters who’ve posted emotion-based responses. There has been emotion (and disrespect) from Jordy too in her recent responses and I see that as her defences being activated as a result of reading the negative or condescending comments on the thread about her and her posts.

            The only time I see disrespectful comments from empaths on this site towards other readers are when emotions have been activated. It doesn’t make them okay, but it makes them more understandable or explainable.

          10. Leigh says:

            Thank you Annaamel.

          11. Jordyguin says:

            Annaamel, yep, correct! Thank you very much for summarising it up!

      2. A Victor says:

        Great point Leigh, I’m majority standard also and would lean passive aggressive much more than confrontational in a conflict, because I’m a chicken. Really great point.

        1. Leigh says:

          Thank you, AV!

    4. Contagious says:

      Candied: hello! I was raised a Christian in both Catholic and Protestant faiths. Different parents. To me, it was the same and I respect all religions as most have the same basic fundamentals. Of course I have Priest friends and Protestant ones and Buddhist friends etc… who roll over heir eyes at this statement as if I am uneducated. But a simple search in when all major religions appeared in a his world is “around the same time.” I don’t believe in coincidences. And the main factor is love. I don’t know if this helps but all empaths have the common theme of empathy. CoD or not. That means we have a core denominator unlike narcs or psychopaths who don’t. This is a basic factor like you have Faith in something or don’t, you are pregnant or not. So as much as you question, if a CoD you have something narcs and psychopaths have: empathy! Empathy is believed to be by scientists today to be genetic and environmental. You got the gene!

  17. Asp Emp says:

    “if X is at a different stage of healing from you, should you not then refrain from making a judgement about her?” (HG, The Doormat 21/11/2017).

    No-one should take down someone else for having less intelligence either.

    Empaths consist of varying measures of schools & cadres. No single empath is more important, nor, more “special” than another, just because of the difference in schools / cadres.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      FM1T, you know you’re my favorite codependent, right? Mwah! 💋

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Sweetest Perfection, thank you, I ‘burn’ for you too 😉 Good to see you 🙂

      2. Isabelle says:

        Aww, now, SP, I’m gonna be jealous 😁.

        I have CoD, so I have to be jealous, right? (That’s for those who think so, now that I’ve read the thread).
        Well, wrong; I have jealousy the size of the tiniest speck of dust, and no envy.
        FM1T is right about CoDs not all being the same, was one thing I wanted to add.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I adore you two as well, Asp Emp and Isabelle! I don’t have any codependency in me, but I have tons of 💋💋💋

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Aww, thanks SP 🙂 x

        2. Witch says:


          “ I have CoD, so I have to be jealous, right? (That’s for those who think so, now that I’ve read the thread).”

          Literally, no one said that about you! I was talking about a particular person. I understand jealousy is a separate trait that anyone can have. I was talking about my experience with someone who is more strongly CoD and had a stronger jealousy trait.
          Certain comments were made which indicated this, also because it appeared that she couldn’t stand to see me get married without a man with her. She was upset with me because I didn’t want her narc master anywhere near my wedding venue as he was no friend of mine and I didn’t owe him or her anything on my wedding day

      3. Fool Me 1 Time says:

        SP I absolutely do!! 😘 right back at you. 🥰

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:


  18. Fool me 1 time says:

    Hi everyone! Just gonna put this out there for all who can’t stomach the Codependent, I am a Codependent. I didn’t know that until I came on here all of those years ago. I think as much as the empath detector is a great thing for finding out about us, it’s only part of our break down. We all live different places all over the world, to say anyone of us is alike because we have certain traits that are the same is just mad. Does anyone remember when everyone found out HG preferred super empaths? A lot of people who never even had the detector done were saying they were super empaths thinking this was something that was special and would attract the holy one. ( Know offense HG ). Now if some people find out you are Codependent it puts you right up there with the narcissist and know one likes you. Some empaths you all are. Shame on you! There has not been one of you over the years that if I seen you struggling or frightened to speak out that I would not help, even if it were only kind and encouraging words. Yep, that’s right, I’m the codependent that some of you are talking about. I think the first thing you should all remember is that we are all human beings first. We all have faults, we all want to find out what it was that we were tangled up with and why for some of us it kept happening, isn’t that why we are or were here? To find out about us and are entanglement with the narcissist, not the entanglement of you and the codependent. If I came off a little emotional in this comment it’s probably because I was. I hope you all have a wonderful evening or day depending on wher you are when you read this. Take care.

    1. Isabelle says:

      Hello FM1T,
      I must admit that I have not yet read all the comments on this thread about CoDs, but now I will, thanks to your message. And thank you for your message, well done, since you have spotted a general atmosphere of whining against CoDs! I have significant CoD and I try to fight it because I don’t like it, and the reason I don’t like it is because it is no fun at all for… me, first and foremost! No one around me has complained about it (well, narcs obviously didn’t, and non-narcs close to me haven’t, maybe because they are very – and truly – empathic!).
      I am sorry that those messages you read made you feel emotional because you seem hurt – which I can really understand.
      As you say, you have indeed always been there for those who needed it.
      All my solidarity with you, FM1T. Xx

      1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

        Thank you Isabelle for understanding what it’s like being a codependent. But if I’m being honest I did exactly what I shouldn’t have done, I left my emotions get the better of me. It shouldn’t matter what others say or do. Sometimes people find wrong with things they simply don’t understand. Don’t be so hard on yourself I believe it’s something that can be worked on and controlled especially with HG and his work. I didn’t even know what it was until I had the empath detector done and actually read up on the subject. Take care Isabelle. Xx

        1. Isabelle says:

          FM1T, you wrote: “I left my emotions get the better of me. It shouldn’t matter what others say or do.” You are right but I can relate to the first part of the quote, and it happens, no worries. After all, that is how you felt and you expressed it. And I don’t think it happens to you a lot at all on the blog, so again, no bother. Also, that is the sort of thing I had in mind when I wrote that CoD is no fun at all for me, and I had in mind: for us. We do that, and then when we have cooled down, we wish we hadn’t. The risk is that we beat ourselves up over it.

          Mind you, there is one instance in which I wasn’t sorry that I did very much like you in your previous message (which in fact brought that instance to my memory). Just to make you laugh, or smile: I arrived at my present workplace ten years ago. The reasons why the small team of my immediate colleagues, bar one, gave me a terrible welcome are too long to explain here, but in short it was essentially because of something the principal had told them about me, which turned out to be false and was really mean on his part. But they were petty enough to buy into it (but he was a narc, of that I pretty sure). Anyway, I gave them an academic year to see how it would go – too long, I now think – but they continued to be mean, so at the end of the year, at a meeting, I just turned on the flame-thrower and told them what I thought of their attitude. I hadn’t planned it, in fact I had planned to keep calm, but I couldn’t. Well, that did the trick and they stopped being so rude and scornful after that, even avoided me, which was fine by me.
          With some people, they just don’t hear when you talk nicely, haha.

          Oh yes, I do believe that we can learn to keep the CoD part in check, better and better, and more often. HG’s work has already helped an awful lot.

          You take care, FM1T.

          1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            That was great Isabelle! You take care of yourself also. Btw, I honestly didn’t beat myself up over what I wrote. I’ve done that a lot my whole life, at this point and time I simply don’t care anymore.

    2. Witch says:


      I can only speak for myself and say that it’s not that I can’t stomach a cOD

      I’m emotional in part because I’ve still had to suffer loss due to narcissism despite not being with a narcissist and going no contact with my parents. And codependency plays a part in that loss

      But also I’ve met a lot of empaths, hundreds in fact and I’ve witnessed the differences between them including what they are willing to sacrifice so I know how dangerous codependency can be for the person who has it and others around them.

      I’m more than happy for majority codependents who have found narcsite and have been able to empower themselves because of it

      1. Rebecca says:

        Hi Wich,
        I have Codependent as part of my Empath Schools too and I’m very grateful to get all the info I found here. It allows me to govern myself better, deal with and choose what I deal with in my life. I’m seeing a clearer picture of not only who I am, but who the people are around me currently. I’m so glad my current situation isn’t made in stone and I’m not stuck here. I can’t wait to get out and live the life I choose for me. Xx

        1. Rebecca says:

          Hi Witch,
          Sorry for the typo on your name xx

        2. Witch says:


          I’m glad to hear your life has improved because of what you have learnt here

    3. WhoCares says:

      Hi FM1T,

      “We all have faults, we all want to find out what it was that we were tangled up with and why for some of us it kept happening, isn’t that why we are or were here?”

      Just to admitting that I have not read all the commentary in this thread – however –
      you make such a good point. Regardless of what majority school of Empath we are, many of us here want to learn (in addition to being educated about narcissists) what role we played in the dynamic and what made us susceptible in the first place.

      Acknowledging and taking ownership of one’s own vulnerabilities, whichever type of Empath we are, can be challenging.

    4. NarcAngel says:

      I didn’t see it as people not being able to stomach Co-ds. That (to me) is as much a generalization as the initial comment was to those who were offended by it, and you note that you were affected emotionally in receiving the comments. So may have been the people when making the comments. You are correct that negative experiences can be had with any School. I see the comments made as an expression of frustrating experiences had by people dealing with certain components or makeup of (in this particular case) Co-ds in their specific circle, and it appeared as a generalization because the focus was on perceived negative behaviours and no good qualities were afforded in the example to balance. They could have easily been (as you pointed out, and has been done previously) about Supers. We can ALL be difficult regardless our School. I have learned here about Co-ds from HG’s work, but I have also gained much understanding from interacting with you. Your sharing over time has helped me form a different view of the Co-d than the one I arrived with. I realize now that many of us have some percentage. It has also helped in dealing with my sister. Sharing both the (perceived) good and bad in discussion allows this to occur in my view (although we might strive for some balance). We will not all come to the same conclusion at the same time. Please don’t take with you that people cannot stomach Co-ds or that they are not valued. I don’t believe this to be the case from the content and interaction here.

      1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

        Hearing negative comments about the Co-d is something that has be going on whenever there is a post about them. I have even spoke to HG about it, he’s the one that suggested I comment about it the next time it happened. I knew that was probably a bad idea. The problem is I let my emotions get in the way, I try to look at everyone’s view points without any type of judgement but when it comes to this particular subject I fail every time. I’m glad you went to YT and found his latest video. You see that’s what I have been trying to say, my trigger with my Co-d is a male narcissist! I can go along in life perfectly normal without any problems at all. I can do things on my own, make decisions for myself, be alone, in fact I enjoy being alone. I’m on vacation with family and friends right now and honestly for the last two days have enjoyed being alone on my own. I emphasized the male narcissist because I have been around female narcissists and after that mask drops and I’m certain that’s what they are, I’m done. Which brings me to the last falling out I had with a female narc. I had my suspicions but always put it off. I blocked her but she always tried to find away in. She told me she’d never have anything to do with a Co-d again that we are awful and she would rather be friends with a narcissist. I know when I hear negative talk about a Co-d it’s a trigger that sends me back a few years and I realize what a fool I was to think I tried to help her and befriend her. Enough about her.
        NA thank you once again for being that voice of reason. For being able to help me get my emotions under control so that I can see everyone’s view point. I would have loved to have a sister like you, your sister is very lucky! Take care NA. Btw, I saw that x!
        😘 🤗 ❤️ hahaha!

  19. Candied Pansy says:

    Hello all, I’ve found reading and learning from everyone’s comments helpful and interesting. Does anyone think Sansa Stark (Game of Thrones) is a CoD, midrange, victim narc, or something else? Everyone thinks they’re Arya, but I’m more Sansa. It’s often hard to read or see her, since she has a need (and is expected) to be the “good” one, like I did. How do you think she will end?

  20. Jordyguin says:


    „I’m not really concerned about your impressions…“

    „There seems to be an impression on your part…“

    … 🎈

    From „Others here will know…“ I agree.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to use the word “impressions” in different contexts.

      Try chalking another one up.

      “Others here will know” … try being a little more cryptic.

      The bottom line is, I’m not buying what you’re selling. Perhaps you should save your breath.

      1. Jordyguin says:

        The bottom line is, I’m not selling, what you would buy. Unfortunately for you I can see the correct points you are making in your responses regarding the topic (to my comment starting from the “Others here will know” in your response from June21 12:19) and also some little contradictions here and there, but that aside, I don’t need to deny it or save my breath. I can comment where I find it appropriate and HG decide to let it through.

        I can see that my initial comment upset you or perhaps you interpreted it in a way which was more upsetting than I would regard it. I made sure in my other comments to expand on my view and explained. Some girls could relate to what I wrote and some didn’t. I think it’s normal.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Your are right, I don’t buy bullshit.

          By all means, comment. I will continue to do the same.

          Your ‘slash and burn’ approach may work for some, not for others. Horses for courses. Your expansion was nothing more than word salad, albeit trying to offer an explanation for said approach. I can only wonder what underlies it.

          Any further communication is now formally terminated on my part.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Thank you for your permission😉

            🎉Who wants to buy bullshit!🎉 Line up Horses!!

            Sorry, couldn’t resist.

            I’m not a narc dear. And if I were one I would have to embrace and love it anyway, so. I’m just making mistakes, though I don’t really believe in the concept of mistakes, perhaps could be called not always ideal choices, though again what is ideal and who is capable of it in any moment of their lives.. Coming from different background in thought I didn’t think much of the harshness I exuded tough it had an underlying truth to it from my perspective and situation.

            Trust me, all good. I know you’ll smile and have a good day again and it will have nothing to do with me, but with you and that’s most important.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I took “From Others here will know” to mean that they agreed with you from that point on in your comment.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Thank you for your input, NA.

  21. NarcAngel says:

    I recall you saying long ago in discussion about empaths something along the lines of
    a co-dependent being on their way to developing into a narcissist but that development being interrupted by something. Is that correct?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is correct.

    2. Joa says:

      This thing is called the will to live.

    3. Rebecca says:

      If I remember correctly, the interruption of the development of being a narcissist was interrupted by a person who showed, the would be narc, love, acceptance and understanding and so stopped the development short of completion. The development can also be stopped by having a lack of confidence to be a full blown narcissist. For me, it was my dad, his love for me, that stopped me being a narcissist, that and my other empath Schools and Cadres.

  22. Jordyguin says:

    *Pissing oneself* meaning – an individual need to go to the bathroom to get rid of an excessive end-product, but for whatever reason they don’t do it in an appropriate manner for themselves and those around them. They ’bring the bathroom to themselves’.

    An equivalent of – an individual need to act urgently, but don’t do it. Finding explanations of why this is happening, talking about this, yet remain immobile. This explanations can be of complaint and blame towards others and towards oneself. And also shift to deflection of what is happening. It can take different forms. Their „strength“ in remaining immobile and explaining it away is misplaced.

    The use of an unflattering language just as a use of a flattering language doesn’t always work. And sometimes it does.

    Is it love when a narc says „I love you“? Is it love when an empath say „I love you“?
    The answer is not No and Yes. For a narc it will be „I love your fuel“, for the empath „I love your mirroring of me“, beside other things which are in the mix for both of them.

    Even more interesting to find out what exactly (of us) is mirrored at us. And why we count something as our pure strengths as they can be simultaneously our weaknesses, depending on the dosage.

    Narcissist’s strength, in my opinion, is in the focus on the now and on the fast detachment. If an empath would bolt this strengths on to the right place in their modus operandi, perhaps they’ll be able to move quicker.

  23. A Victor says:

    CoD’s can have high N traits, with eroded empathy, can be very similar to narcissists. My CoD daughter literally scared me cold once, toward the end of a highly abusive 2 year relationship with a narcissist. I did not know what was happening to her at that point. But her behavior terrified me. A short time later it all came out, we had to get the police involved to extricate her, she drank heavily for the next couple of years, again unbeknownst to me and all the while keeping her career going full steam ahead. I DO understand, “get it”. My objection was to the insensitive words used to describe someone like my beautiful daughter and other CoD’s and also, as NA observed, to the utter lack of anything positive being acknowledged about them in the initial pissing comment. It was a very lopsided appraisal and one that reflected poorly on who the writer perceives them to be. I do not have to agree with or accept that appraisal as complete or even typical, and I do not. That said, CoD’s can be frustrating and sometimes horrible, but so are all of us.

    That said, as a majority savior with a majority CoD daughter, I can say that that combination won’t always clash, in fact it is mostly quite pleasant for she and I to spend time together, and we do so a lot.

    There is one other thing that struck me on this thread. No one, including a CoD, can take advantage of anyone else, their time, energy, money, whatever, unless they are allowed to do so. So if this taking advantage is happening to a person, perhaps that person has a bit of culpability also. Are we helping them by allowing them to dump on us? I don’t think so.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I think we will endure more clash if it is with family whom we love. We will tend to see more of the good characteristics and balance that with the less desirable behaviours, allowing for continued interaction. Even more so in your case of an Empath parent and child. I can’t imagine a stronger bond. This might be less of a consideration with “friends” or co-workers for example, which the perceived negative comments/experiences noted here may be based on. I agree that no one can take advantage of anyone else (as adults) unless we allow it, so there may be a measure of culpability, but again, we may allow more “dumping” due to both the nature of the relationship and our own empathic traits seeking to validate and help. To a point. See my response to Witch regarding my sister.

      1. A Victor says:

        NA, thank you for your reply. I agree entirely, we will often be more forgiving and work harder with family than others. I was just clarifying that it wasn’t always going to be an epic battle, even in other situations I don’t battle CoD’s, I’ve had some as good friends, but I also don’t give much leeway to them for whining, that’s my Super I think. I find it one of the most annoying things to deal with… “Yeah but…”. Ugh. Anyway, there is tolerance if it is most people but within my limits. Which may be what you were saying. Also, my way of saving someone is typically to teach them to fish, not fish for them. So maybe I’m not the usual savior. I will look for your comment to Witch. Thank you again.

      2. A Victor says:

        NA, I did want to clarify also that I wrote what I did about my daughter and I because we do not have constant ongoing clash. We have no more than any two people who interact on a regular basis. There is love, of course, but that is not why there is no clash. I believe it is more from respect for each other, including our differences, that we don’t clash. I have that basic respect for all humans, though with narcs I now respect myself enough to walk away. So it is not a matter of enduring more clash, it is a matter of not having clash to begin with.

        As I’ve said here elsewhere, I automatically put boundaries down on complaining, I am a strong believer in, pardon my French, ‘shit or get off the pot’. That has been true as long as I can remember. My heart has ached at times for people in bad situations but I cannot effectively help anyone who does not wish to help themselves, and this has at times included my own children.

        It stems from a broader perspective for me, if I do it for someone, they have nothing invested, if they invest, it is more likely to stick. Therefore it, in my mind, is more loving to wait until they’re ready, carefully planting seeds along the way if I can but often it’s best not to, and let them take the first step for themselves. Then if or when they reach out I support. But I don’t expend energy until that point. This is just my way, everyone has their own.

      3. TBS says:

        Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.

    2. Rebecca says:

      Hi AV,

      I agree with you and I can give my own example of my behavior at times. I got frustrated at work yesterday, we were having problems with our work phones functioning. I was trying to get a project done and couldn’t because of the phones malfunctioning. I got really frustrated and got stressed out. I got emotional and then i got angry. It didn’t help that another person was being rude and that sent me into more upset, so I was shaking, fuming and I vented at my supervisor and a work friend. Thankfully, I have great support at work, both were understanding and understood I needed to get a grip on my emotions and breathe. My supervisor was like, breathe, calm down, you’re OK, you’re OK. He said it, in a calm voice and a reassuring smile. I started breathing in slowly, holding it and letting it out. I felt embarrassed and I apologized to him yesterday and today. I felt bad for being so emotional and I feel that can be difficult for some people to deal with at work. Sometimes I feel my behavior could be better, but sometimes my emotions jump the fence before I can keep them in the pen. And if you’re wondering, my supervisor knows what I’m going through, that and I think he’s an empath and just naturally shows compassion for others’ feelings. I’m relieved to have such a supportive boss. Xx

      1. A Victor says:

        Thank you for sharing that Rebecca. I am glad for you about your boss, that’s great. My boss has dealt with narcissists before also, I think he’s a normal but it was still very traumatic for him so he also understands certain things that we’ve discussed about me. It is so awesome to have that kind of support!

        1. Rebecca says:


          Yes, it’s very important to have support, whether at home, work or some other personal part of your life. Support is important to one’s wellbeing, physical and mental. The fact that he understands how I feel and understands that I just need to back off the emotional gas pedal for a minute to feel more calm. I feel relieved having this new supervisor, the last one wasn’t so great.
          I hope you have support, where you need it. Xx

  24. NarcAngel says:

    Just found HG’s video The Co-dependent’s Curse on YT. Highly recommend for it’s timely info and relevance to discussion here.

    1. A Victor says:

      Thank you NA, it was excellent.

    2. NA, I have just watched this and my understanding is the CoD’s curse exists both in a lack of awareness of narcissism, while also having a need to find their identity in the narcissist.
      Most CoD’s will have been extensions of a parental narcissist who has trained them to consider the narcissist’s needs above their own. This then becomes an ongoing issue in future relationships as the lack of individual identity ‘curses’ them to seek their identity in others. Of course, the narcissist will be on the lookout for those who are so easily swayed to provide them with fuel, character traits and residual benefits. Both are seeking and finding in the other a toxic kind of fulfillment which will, of course, damage the empath in the long run. It is definitely a ‘curse’ – to be unaware and ensnared – more so for the CoD who learned long ago that their task in life is to fulfill the needs of the narcissist even to their own detriment.

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi LET, this is a little side trail perhaps, but it also seems kind of fitting for this discussion. My parents, my mom especially, saw me as an extension of themselves and worked (unaware) to train me to consider their needs above my own. I did accept this training to a degree and am working to undo it for the last while, since being here. But I remember things I also rejected from their training, and questioned and didn’t buy into. I wonder if CoD’s don’t reject or question and do but into more? I mean it is all on a scale, a matter of degrees, so that would make sense. This has popped into my mind a number of times, it will likely be answered in HG’s info on Empaths, regarding their creation. Thanks for you comment. This discussion overall has been thought provoking and interesting.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AV, I think you have a point in terms of how different schools of empaths react to the treatment of the narcissist, in particular the narcissistic parent. I think some of these differences may be explained when HG provides his further information and insights into empaths, particularly with regard to the way he has them divided into schools and cadres. There are likely temperaments and personality traits that cause us to react in certain ways, so regardless of the narcissist’s intentions not every empath will be affected in the same way, or offer the same response. There is much to be understood, but hopefully we’ll continue to gain the insight we need to fight this battle, and win!

      2. Isabelle says:

        Hello LET!

        Yes, HG’s video on the CoD’s curse is excellent.

        What you wrote is interesting and got me thinking. I have significant CoD (25%), and that is a part of me I really don’t like and try to fight. What got me thinking is that you write CoDs seek their identity in others. I am not sure this is quite how I experience it. You are right in that a CoD will have been an extension of at least one narcissist parent, but it is not really identity I seek. It is more a question of feeling obliged to fulfill the needs of a narcissist (and also non-narcs, but not in the same way and that does not cause problems) because if I don’t, I feel that something horrible is going to happen, to the narc, and to me as a consequence – or at least to my conscience. ET for sure, and I know it stems from having been well trained in this by my parents. I see that “obligation” as having to sacrifice my needs or else… And I do sacrifice them for a while until I can’t anymore, and this tends to happen earlier and earlier (thanks to HG’s help) because I realise that sacrifice or not, it is never enough, never adequate. So in the end I just go “s*d it !”
        Hope all is going well for you, LET.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Isabelle, I replied to this and my reply somehow failed 🙁

          I will try again asap, as I appreciated your comment, just wish I’d saved mine!

          Good to see you and hope all is well with you, too.

  25. Jordyguin says:

    Hi guys,

    I have another example. The scene where HG asks Tabitha to choose a restaurant. I would have exploded at one point, telling her: Why can’t you just make a decision and own the consequence of the possibility of not being liked?! Why do you have to manipulate everyone around you, to love you and to see you as a saint, which you aren’t, never will be and most important of all, don’t have to be?!!! Why do you give in to the guilt, which was placed on you, again and again?!

    With some individuals; one of codependent’s toolkits will be a clusterfuck of manipulations very similar to the Overwhelming Angel. And the behavior is so fine tuned, you will not realise that in the end they made you the center of their universe in order to fill their cravings for being loved. The narcissist will naturally benefit and welcome it, but the empath or normal might struggle with the manipulations of this individual who happens to be a codependent or display codependent traits of manipulation based on their lack of self esteem. They can be successful and shining and you’d never guess.

    They can be the worst and the best parent in the world at the same time. Their strong cravings for being loved, provide the base for the lack of control environment they create for the child, where they don’t give a proper orientation in order for the child to survive in a particularly structured society. They strive to become child’s favorite supporter/parent and they will suffocate the child with their love and misleading ideals they’ll implant also using guilt and shame (which was also used on them). In reality they sort of exploit the child, thinking they are benefiting the child.

    Let’s say any child (including a future codependent child!) start their live by not lacking any kind of validation because the punishment-reward conditioning has not yet become part of their coding. But the codependent parent, judging by their own void, will overpraise the child – giving, what they think, the child lacks too, or should get the prophylaxis not to develop. And it will confuse and mislead child’s – non lacking anything – psyche. I understand however the difficulty in recognising it.

    Codependent’s support of you will be forever, and the obligation they knit out of that support, to bind you to them akin to the narcissist, but very benign with a flavor of guilt, with more light or more heavy versions. A full blown Codependent is an unfinished narcissist. Same wound, same void. A reminder.

    I describe from my experience and observations and you will have your own. Especially the codependents here have my support for being here and growing their awareness. It pains me so fucking much sometimes to see the codependent’s never healing wound and I wish I could fill their void, to the point they’ll grow their wings and would leave their chains behind, but I absolutely can’t. Temporarily, yes and I can do that. I can offer my understanding or advise but not force the person to take it. I would over cross my possibilities and responsibility by pestering them with attention of either validation or criticism, which may only result in giving in to the codependent’s weaknesses, strengthening them.

    Also to remember to make the differentiation of an individual and individual’s behavior, which we melt into one solid mass, identifying with it, which ignites the emotional thinking to rule our decisions. They can be viewed separately. The individual may very well be untainted by any form of behavior they’ve made into their identity. Is it possible to reach the void and disarm its influence on that particular identity? I’d say that’s what HG’s knowledge is for.

    But overall there must be a recognition of the fine balance of what to say or do and when to stop. It’s a realisation for me, for my empathic makeup where codependent traits, light or heavy, may also be present, no question.

  26. . says:

    Hello Leigh,

    Thanks for clarifying that the Doormat (misspelled it as Doomrat, maybe that’s a sign lol) is a CoD empath, and for suggesting Chained and the Will Smith analysis.

    I wouldn’t be proud of pissing myself (extreme example on Jordyguin’s part but they got a point across) and am not proud of being a doormat. From what I’ve gathered, maybe Jordyguin’s example is of a CoD in emotional thinking about being abused.

    1. Leigh says:

      I would agree that Jordy was using “piss myself” as a metaphor for abuse. CoDs don’t often realize there being abused. They get their self worth by taking care of the narc. They pour themselves into the narc.

      I woild also suggest you take the empath and trait detectors. Find out what kind of empath you are and go from there. It will be extremely helpful in understanding yourself and working through the healing process.

      1. Candied Pansy says:

        It’s true a lot of CoDs don’t know or accept they’re being abused. Assuming I’m not a narc and my dad is, I didn’t let myself think, “He’s mean and I don’t deserve it” until I was ~25. I’m 31 now. Where and when I grew up, abuse was physical. He didn’t get physical. That, plus his smearing me and my mom, had us stuck. I wasted my life to please him, but he doesn’t want to be pleased. I know how it feels to think you must make up to the narc for existing, and if you don’t cater to them, you’re selfish / bad. Even in college 700 miles away, I couldn’t cut him off or say no. He barely let me go!

        In Jordy’s 1st comment, I see CoDs who go “I’m loyal, I’m a fighter, I don’t quit when relationships get hard, etc.” My 1st question to HG (re: CoD vs middle mid B and/or victim narcs) was because I’m one of them. I’m too weak to be normal or narcissistic. I’m saving for a narc detector. If my dad’s a narc, I’ll add empath detector to my list, and if I’m an empath, go for the trait detector. Thank you for the suggestions.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi CP,
          I also thought I was a narcissist when I first got here. That’s why I think it would be wise for you to do the empath detector first. When you hear the results, things will start to fall into place.

          I have no CoD in me. I’m a majority standard empath with a strong minority super element. When I read Jordy’s comment, I didn’t like what she was implying. My mother and husband are both mid range victim narcissists and I can promise you that they are takers, not givers. In that comment she described my mother and husband, not a CoD empath. It was important to me to point out that she wasn’t describing the CoD accurately.

          Mr. Tudor posted a video yesterday on YouTube called the CoDependent’s Curse. He clears up a lot of misunderstanding in that video.

          Below is a link to a video that about parental narcissists which I found helpful as well.

          Good luck on your journey CP.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Candied Pansy, “doomrat”, a good ‘tuit’ – you know what they say about the potential reaction of a cornered rat 😉

  27. Candied Pansy says:

    HG, (1) is your sister a victim narc? I thought she was an empath. (2) Were you just disgusted with her for being codependent / weak / sensitive? (3) Did you resent that she was “allowed” to be weak and you weren’t (not that you wanted to be)? (4) Are highly codependent empaths, middle mid-range B narcs, and victim cadre narcs hard to tell apart if you’re not the ultra?

    (5) Are any of your books helpful re: familial narcs, esp parental narc/ACON? I was tempted by Chained and Exorcism, but it was said that they’re helpful for romantic entanglements, not family.

    It doesn’t change the past and you don’t care, but I am sorry for the abuse you suffered. Every child is entitled to be treated fairly and loved, no matter their nature. You should have been too.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. No.
      2. Weak.
      3. No.
      4. It takes time for people to learn the differences but it is entirely achievable. You are correct to identify though that they do appear similar.
      5. Those books are just as applicable to familial ensnarements.

      1. Jordyguin says:

        Not only do they appear similar, they’re capable to suck all the energy out of you just as a narcissist would.
        They can be given a master degree on how they pissed themselves and turned it in to a heroic act.
        „I pissed myself.“ A codependent would announce.
        „Ok, do something about it. Get up, clean and change!“ Everyone around them would say.
        „No, you don’t understand! I pissed myself! Do you still love me btw????“
        „Well, you begin to stink. Do something about it.“
        „You are mean! Why can’t you understand that I pissed myself. I always pissed myself. I remember the first time I pissed myself it was… If I could only change the past, but actually I’m proud of pissing myself. It’s my strongest trait in fact. I am worthy of pissing myself and you just don’t understand. Love me, love me, love me…“

        I guess the hope lies with the percentage of another school present in the individual along the codependent for them to recognise. But well, we know what hope is. Hope is probably a codependent’s invention. Useless. To talk about actions, don’t work. Only actions. But codependent’s another „strongest“ trait is talking. Despair. I learned to say once „You pissed yourself. Do something about.“ and hang up. There is really nothing one can do for them. They must do it themselves.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi Jordy,
          If I may, what you described above is not the CoD. That’s the middle mid ranger who thinks they’re CoD. The CoDs I know don’t whine about themselves like that. CoDs usually have Martyr, which is defined as Carrier 2.0. As Carriers 2.0, they’re the ones carrying the load. CoDs have incredible strength and endurance. They’re called a doormat for a reason. Its because the narcissist walks all over them and they still endure. This isn’t a CoD you describe. This is a mealy mouth mid ranger.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Hi dear Leigh, I agree with all you say!… Yes it would be the case of the middle mid ranger, if there weren’t all the wonderful positive traits of an empath to the individual as well. The emphasis not to miss from my comment is „they’re capable…“ It’s not a constant behavior but a capability they have, from my observations, they may act out or not, which screams victim narc and make me react to it as if I were a wolf, who spots an ill animal and want to end its misery. I want to help them but in some cases the chains are quite heavy and it’s them who are holding the key to their own freedom. It’s complicated. Their incredible strength and endurance can strike out in to the less fortunate direction. Sometimes they become aware of this but only flirt with freedom and that gives them enough pause to reassemble and go back to „normal“ to continue to drag the chains along, which encompasses different aspects of behavior relevant to victimization, despite the appearance of confidence.

            Naturally our experiences and encounters with majority/minority codependents will differ and we will have different opinions about them based on that, which is ok and why we are learning here, to find a broader view on ALL behavior there is in different combinations and variations.

            It should be mentioned that I count the minority or majority codependents on the blog to the aware portion of codependents who are strong and capable of change, otherwise why would they be here?! Further more I’m sure I have some codependent in myself as well, though I perhaps feel my other schools stronger. Doesn’t mean I never piss myself, guys! Sure, why not. It’s not a crime. Only a matter of time and recognition to understand and outgrow it, including fallbacks and stumbling and falling and getting up again, and, and, and…

            I’m glad about all considerate responses! Kisses and hugs to all the strong and lovely majority/minority codependents💕 Some of your configurations are not easy for others to deal with at times but „if it would be easy everyone would do it“… All have a special place here in life, narcs, psychopaths included… Collectively it can be viewed as all our mess and as all our possibility to clean it up. The roots of this mess lie in the past with our predecessors and their mess became our mess, but compared to them — we have the Ultra!

          2. Leigh says:

            I think we have to agree to disagree. I don’t see the CoD the same as you do.

          3. Jordyguin says:

            I don’t disagree with the view you offered, Leigh, nor am I planning to do so. Agreeing to disagree is not applicable in my case.

        2. A Victor says:

          With a daughter who is majority CoD, I can reassure you that this is not how they are. Even with her majority Geyser, not as you describe at all. She is one of the most compassionate, strong and accomplished people I know in the field she has chosen. Her co-workers have nothing but praise for her and her work. She took her care for others and channeled it into a meaningful career and now that she’s a mother, she is using it there also. The negative aspects of her CoD showed when she was in a romantic relationship with a narcissist, it was clear then and devastating for her. But I can assure you, she’s never pissed herself, nor would she be proud of it if she had.

        3. A Victor says:

          Oh, also Jordyguin, on a more familial plane, as opposed to her career, she is delightful as a daughter, sister, niece etc, people love her. And not only narcs. Her sense of humor, her warmth, her sparkling , effervescent personality radiates for all to enjoy.

        4. A Victor says:

          Oh, sorry, keep having more thoughts Jordy,

          The sadness I felt when learning that this sweet, gentle, kind person was CoD was only for the fact that it is more difficult for them to step away from narcs and save themselves, because they become so intertwined. It is possible however and knowing her own vulnerability since doing her EDC, she has been able to make some changes in herself for her own protection. I am very grateful to HG to offer the EDC for that reason, among others.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Dear Vic, you are absolutely correct with all you say! There can be all this aspects to a codependent as you described and thank goodness there are! Your daughter is very lucky to have someone as steady and reliable as you on her side and it’s wonderful to read that she is able to make the changes in herself for her own protection and her thriving in life and to read about your own progress, you share on other threads, as well💕 Please read my reply to Leigh, I expanded there a bit more😘

        5. Mary says:

          This comment “pissed” me off a little bit.

          Its quite insensitive.

        6. Jordyguin, that’s a wonderful take on the narcissist’s perspective of a CoD.

          The lack of empathy is obvious.

          It’s so interesting to see the derision of an empathic school, and it would be interesting to see the derision of the other schools as well. From a narcissist’s perspective, I’m sure there’s something pathetic about all of them (as well as useful to them, of course).

          1. annaamel says:

            Jordyguin is not showing a lack of empathy. She’s being critical, yes. Whether that’s insensitive is a matter of opinion.

            She’s suggesting co-dependence is not a superpower. Shes correct, in my opinion. It’s a weakness. She’s saying co-dependent empaths can display traits that we’d consider narcissistic. I agree with her. They can. This conversation even began with HG suggesting that narcissists and codependent empaths can be mistaken for one another. Narcissists might show false compassion while codependent empaths can show less appealing narcissistic traits.

            I think it’s also true that codependent empaths, regardless of their other schools, will necessarily display empathy for others, and show kindness and compassion and generosity. I don’t see that as their co-dependence, however. I see that as their empathy. At times, it may also be their love for others. Attachment to loved ones is not, by default, co-dependence. It’s normal empathy. I probably see a codependent empath as an empath first, but with codependence mixed into that empathy. And then there will likely be other empath schools all contributing their own form of empathy. There is no question a codependent empath, even a full codependent empath, is empathic.

            However, the codependency is not the strength. It’s not the superpower. I don’t consider a codependent empath as having stronger love. I don’t see their attachment as better in any way.

            And when a codependent empath is dependent on a narcissist (and feels like the narcissist is dependent on them) it’s not pleasant to witness.

          2. A Victor says:


            Jordy was exceptionally insensitive and it was done with a complete lack of empathy. She either did not take into consideration the many CoD’s on this blog, or she didn’t care. If she was saying it from a narcissist’s perspective, she did not clarify that.

            CoD is not a superpower, it is rather silly of you to even bring that up as it had not been previously in this conversation.

            CoD is a school of empath, the most difficult one to have in the sense of them being willing and able to come to understand their unhealthier than usual “extra” attachment to the narcissist. It is a sad thing for them, especially when they are in the midst of it, but even then there is no proudly pissing on themselves and looking for accolades from other people.

          3. Leigh says:

            Nowhere in Jordy’s comment is she suggesting that CoDs don’t have a super power. She’s actually suggesting that the CoD is weak, whiny and expects others to take care of them. Her comment is creating confusion for people. What she’s describing is a mid range narcissist that thinks they’re CoD.

            The CoD has an insatiable need to help and please the narcissist sometimes to the detriment of themselves. They are fulfilled by filling the needs of the narcissist. They’re givers, not takers.

            While I agree that the comment was insensitive, you’re right, the word insensitive is subjective. A better word for her comment would be inaccurate. Jordy’s comment was inaccurate.

          4. Jordyguin says:

            Thank you Annaamel! You understood all of what drove my response!😘😘😘

          5. Jordyguin says:


            „I’m sure there’s something pathetic about all of them“ — About all of us😂 But not to take too seriously. It’s just a life we haven’t figured out enough about yet… Maybe we will one day:))

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            I disagree that there is no lack of empathy in her statement. There is a distinct lack of empathy, and that is very different from just offering a criticism. The difference is not subtle and those who have reacted negatively to her statement are aware of that. Those drawn in by it, in my opinion, are not. That goes for any CoD’s who are now sensing some kind of pathetic stereotype embedded in her words.

            Who on earth assumed that CoD was some kind of superpower?? Where did you get that idea? What a ridiculous statement.

            Here’s a perspective that differs – AV has given a wonderful breakdown of her daughter’s school in relation to the type of person she is to others.

            CoD’s are givers – hence they Martyr connection – and not takers.

            Victim narcissists are takers.

            That is the difference.

            A victim narc will be like a blood sucking vampire because they drain you of everything you have. A CoD will be drained because they give everything they have. This is why the narcissist is drawn to them.

            One of HG’s IPPS’s – who strikes many as one he had a stronger connection with – was a CoD, and it would be obvious to anyone who knows the story of Karen that she never sat there and said to HG “I pissed my pants!”. It’s more likely the narcissist (albeit victim narcissist) would say “I pissed my pants!” and the CoD would rush to clean them up. That’s the difference.

            The CoD is trauma bonded to the narcissist, likely through long training due to a narcissistic parent, and HG’s sister is a classic case of a trauma bonded individual. She will have learned that her survival depended on her pleasing the narcissist. The strength that derives from Codependency is the strength of survival. If that is a boast, then so be it.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            From “here’s a perspective that differs” you make repeated accurate and salient points.

          8. Leigh says:

            LET, the voice of reason.

          9. annaamel says:


            you and I probably have different perspectives on this.

            ‘Nowhere in Jordy’s comment is she suggesting that CoDs don’t have a super power.’

            I didn’t see her suggesting that codependents have special powers. However I read her as implying they may categorise their own codependency as a superpower when she wrote this, (speaking as a codependent): “I’m proud of pissing myself. It’s my strongest trait in fact. I am worthy of pissing myself and you just don’t understand.”

            (I’ve interpreted the pissing as a stand in for receiving abusive behaviour)

            ‘She’s actually suggesting that the CoD is weak, whiny and expects others to take care of them.

            I agree she’s portrayed a codependent as whiny (at least at times) and I’d say she’s portrayed them as needy rather than weak. She’s also portrayed them as somewhat controlling of the discussion. All this is not flattering, I agree.

            ‘Her comment is creating confusion for people.’

            I think you see her comment as misleading.

            ‘What she’s describing is a mid range narcissist that thinks they’re CoD.’

            That may be so.

            ‘The CoD has an insatiable need to help and please the narcissist sometimes to the detriment of themselves.’

            I agree.

            ‘They are fulfilled by filling the needs of the narcissist.’

            I agree with this as well.

            ‘They’re givers, not takers.’

            This is where I might be less able to agree, based on my own experiences and observations.

            ‘While I agree that the comment was insensitive, you’re right, the word insensitive is subjective. A better word for her comment would be inaccurate. Jordy’s comment was inaccurate.’

            I’d be more inclined to go with insensitive than inaccurate. I was surprised when I read it. But I don’t really disagree with it.

          10. Leigh says:

            I just want to address a couple of points without rehashing too much because I’ve already stated my case.

            I said, ‘Her comment is creating confusion for people.’

            You said, “I think you see her comment as misleading.”

            Of course I saw her comment as misleading. That’s why its causing confusion.

            I said, ‘They’re givers, not takers.’

            You said, “This is where I might be less able to agree, based on my own experiences and observations.”

            Maybe you’re dealing with a mid range narcissist and you think you’re dealing with CoD. Maybe that’s why your experiences are different.

            No where in Jordy’s comment does she say she’s using “pissing themselves” as a metaphor for abuse. But even if she did, CoDs still don’t complain about the abuse like she describes. CoDs and empaths in general often don’t even realize they’re being abused and don’t complain about it. They suffer in silence.

            When someone is complaining the way Jordy describes, its a mid range narcissist. I stand by my original observation.

          11. Witch says:

            I agree with you and I also relate to what Jordyguin has said.
            When empaths are with narcissists we make mistakes, it wears down our emotional empathy, we become paranoid, we lash out at people who don’t deserve it.

            And when an empath is strongly CoD it’s much harder to reason with them when they are with a narcissist.

            My best friend was more coD than me. I tried to help her. I tried to introduce her to HG, she didn’t want to hear that narcissists can’t change. She didn’t want to accept she has an addiction. She had a male friend who would also try to advise her and she didn’t want to hear it and would always use past trauma as an excuse not to move forward. And I strongly suspect there was a jealousy for me because I was able to surpass her in that respect as I married another empath.

            We fell out and I’ve decided that I don’t want her to be part of my life again. And not because she’s a terrible person but because I’ve accepted that she only gives the best of herself to male narcs and I’m neither a male or a narc.

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Great comment, Witch.

          13. Leigh says:

            HI Witch,
            Maybe I’m misunderstanding the definition of a CoD. In Jordy’s description, if we substitute “piss” for abuse, it still doesn’t make sense to me. I understand the CoD to not even realize they’re being abused. Like your friend who can’t admit that the narc can’t change. So if a CoD doesn’t see the abuse, why would she call someone and complain about it? The other thing I understood about the CoD is if you point out the abuse, they’ll make excuses for it.

            I know you’re CoD so I want to ask you a question. If you had just had an interaction with your mother would you call someone else to complain about the abuse? Would you ask the other person if they were proud of you for sustaining the abuse?

            Maybe I’m missing a piece somewhere and that’s why I’m confused.

          14. Witch says:


            My friend did call me to complain and sometimes I’ll be on the phone with her for 2-3 hours about it.
            I understand she was battling her addiction. My problem with her was how she wasn’t considerate about how it was effecting others who had to hear about it. I can tell towards the end she was trying to stop bringing him up because I would stop giving my opinion but every so often she couldn’t help herself and would mention him. This went on for 5 years! She would leave him and then get back with him. She also has a narc mother who would give her the wrong advice.

            She even said her male friend “sounded arrogant” when he would try and advise her to leave the narcissist.
            So she couldn’t tolerate arrogance from her friend but could tolerate her ugly narcissistic boyfriend, who had 2 bitches in 2 different post codes fighting over him, who would come to her yard and eat the food out her fridge and use her hot water to shower and had her wifi password, but that’s not arrogant though?

            CoD do complain, but they also suffer the most with withdrawal symptoms when they try and leave the narcissist. CoD have identity issues, they struggle to know who and what they are outside of their relationships with narcs.
            And I don’t mind people complaining if they are taking the steps to move forward.
            But to expect your friends emotional well-being to be ruined having to listen to the same shit years down the line and expect them to compete with your addiction until they die is bullshit.
            I’m sure not all CoD are the same, but she had narc parents as well so she was hard work

          15. Leigh says:

            I do understand that empaths need people to lean on as well and sometimes that might mean complaining. I just can’t imagine it would be to the level that Jordy describes.

            I know you have CoD so I definitely appreciate your input.

            I’m sorry about your friend. I hope she figures it out. I know how hard it is to break the cycle.

          16. Thank you, HG. I appreciate your response.

          17. Jordyguin says:

            „The strength that derives from Codependency is the strength of survival. If that is a boast, then so be it.“ — I’m not sure about this.

            You brought up Karen. Let me bring up HG’s father. He watched his children being abused over and over again. Most of readers here know to what a horrific extent it was for HG and Sloane. Nor did he shield HG, nor did he leave to save the twins and later his other children. Where was his giving ability for his children? He gave to the MatriNarc, gave to his addiction, but not to his children. What did he do to help the twins, to help HG? He stayed until he died.

            „…strength of survival… a boast, then so be it.“ — I question that.

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’m not really concerned about your impressions around my statement, but let me just clarify for anyone who seems to think CoD’s consider themselves ‘special’, or that they have a ‘superpower’ (not your words, I know.)

            CoD develops as a survival mechanism, the people pleasing aspect of which is to ensure to keep the narcissist/psychopath happy so that the terror of not pleasing the narcissist is not visited on them.

            From that perspective, it is a strength and to be respected as one means of survival for highly vulnerable individuals (e.g. children). There seems to be an impression on your part that CoD’s are in it for themselves, and that they are benefiting from their abusive relationship. The narcissist will convince them they are benefiting, but the reality is the CoD knows no other way except to become an extension of the other, or a victim of abuse. I think you have a faulty perception of this toxic relationship.

            Others here will know that I’ve repeatedly questioned HG’s father’s actions in relation to HG. As a parent myself, I struggle to understand how he allowed Matrinarc to do as she did while willingly standing by for the duration. I don’t recall HG saying his father was CoD empath, but either way he was an ensnared empath who showed all the hallmarks of one with an addiction to the narcissist. It is a great sorrow to me that his awareness was not raised to the level HG has enabled our awareness to be raised. I think you will find many empaths have remained in situations where their awareness was lacking, often due to having been the victim of a parental narcissist themselves. Narcissists are notorious for not making it easy to disengage as well. There are also empaths, as noted in this thread, who have a mother or father who was. or still is, ensnared by a narcissistic mother or father. It goes for parents, it goes for partners, it goes for children.

            You want to blame CoD’s for not walking away sooner?

            You can only blame them is they have the full knowledge of their circumstances as described by HG. This is the most comprehensive work, which also allows for compassion toward those ensnared. We must be able to have compassion for ourselves as well. Otherwise, the bitter words that echo here will forever leave us unabsolved from the treachery of ensnarement to the narcissist.

          19. A Victor says:

            Thank you for this LET, for all of us who have been ensnared and have done all we knew to do to make our ensnarement/relationship work, not only CoD’s, I thank you for this. Until we know, we don’t know, we just try. Once we know, we may go quickly or our addiction may continue to keep us ensnared for a while, the speed of this depends on our school and cadres I think, along with other factors. But until we know, we are not choosing this, even after we know, we may be unable to act, our addiction may still be at work. Thank you, what you wrote does absolve the victims. And once they know, whatever stage they are at, they can become victors!

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, thank you for your response and words of wisdom. We all have a starting point when it comes to untangling ourselves from the narcissist, the rest of our journey is very personal in terms of circumstances and timing. I don’t think we can become true victors until we stop beating ourselves up for being unaware empaths ensnared by the narcissist. Maybe that is the final nail in the coffin of the narcissist’s hold over us.

          21. WiserNow says:


            I can relate to your comment. In my own case, there were many times when the situation my mother provoked became one of emotional and psychological torture and I was her main target.

            My father could have very easily stepped in and said something, anything, to openly show my mother that he thought she was in the wrong and should stop. Many times, I would resort to pleading or arguing with him so that he would do something or take my side and back me up in an argument or similar situation. He never did. He always took my mother’s side.

            Even then, I could see that my mother was setting him up, almost like a test or a dare, to see which ‘side’ he would take. I think she was getting fuel from both my father and me by doing that. While provoking me, she also kept my father under control by looking at him to see his reaction and whether or not he would ‘relent’. It was like a sick kind of game or test.

            I also think she deliberately said or did things to create a division or to drive a wedge between my father and me because he and I normally got along well otherwise.

            At the times when my mother would manipulate in that way, my father would dig his heels in. If my mother tested him, he would hang in there and resist in order to pass the test. It was like a game of who could stare down the other even though they may not have been staring at each other. In the meantime, I was caught in the middle. I don’t like thinking about those times.

          22. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, we actually voiced the same thoughts around givers and takers, and I really appreciated your comments as well as AV’s.

            Basically on the same page. Thanks for that.

          23. Witch says:


            I’m minority CoD. How does that affect me? Sometimes I over extend myself to help others, like staying on the phone for 2 hours to talk about waste men and having it backfiring on me in the end. And she was telling him what I was saying to try and win arguments! “witch doesn’t like you” “witch said this and that about you”
            like not you working with the enemy sis!
            It’s exhausting

          24. Leigh says:

            When you said you over extend yourself with your friend, I see that as you pouring yourself into her, not sucking the life from her. In Jordy’s comment, she said that CoDs suck the energy out of people. I don’t see you that way at all. Maybe not all CoDs are the same. I get that. I also don’t see CoDs as weak and I don’t think they portray themselves as victims. Jordy made a broad sweeping comment about CoDs and it was not a fair assessment of them at all.

          25. NarcAngel says:

            While I don’t disagree with your response to JG at 12:19 regarding Co-ds developing as a coping mechanism, could it not be argued that HG developed narcissism as a coping mechanism as well?

            (HG’s article: To Control is to Cope is a good reference here).

            He developed that as a child, and as the child of a narcissist. From that perspective, should we then consider his narcissism a strength and to be respected for survival?

          26. A Victor says:

            NA, I hope it is okay that I’m responding here.

            I can have a lot of respect for a shark and still never want to be close to one.

            He considers it a strength regardless of what anyone else says. Who are we to disagree? Does a CoD view their coping mechanism as a strength? Maybe. And maybe it is a strength, at least when not being misused by a narc.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, I don’t think I’ve ever questioned HG’s article on “To Control is to Cope” and remember finding it very enlightening – and empathic – in terms of understanding how narcissism begins to manifest and how it eventually takes hold of the individual.

            HG also describes narcissism as an “hermetically sealed defence mechanism”, i.e. a tool for survival, and on that basis the narcissist has cut themselves off from their vulnerability in a hostile environment in order to survive. From their perspective, this is a strength, or the power of invulnerability. Sadly, it closes them off from the fullness of life which can be experienced by an empath. I know the narcissist doesn’t see it that way – they have been robbed of the openness which allows it.

            At the same time, any means of survival could be considered a strength. I would have to respect the fact that a vulnerable child sought a means to “cope” with their unrelenting reality, and in order to do that decided to close themselves off from love.

          28. A Victor says:

            LET, I agree with this. This is the very reason I have any compassion or tolerance for my parents and my ex’s, they were robbed. They did what they had to do to survive and in so doing gave up a piece of themselves that was fundamental to healthy function in their human experience. I find that heartbreaking. From that I can understand why the things they did to me were done. I don’t say it was right, it was not, but I do understand it now. That has helped me release anger, put the abuse where it belongs and move on. It was a strength, a will to live on their part, it was done out of desperation with seemingly no other option and done without their conscious permission also, in their little child psyche’s, robbed and likely by those who should’ve cared for them.

            I am thankful that empaths, including myself, including CoD’s, are not trapped in the same way even though many were robbed in the same ways.

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I know my mother also suffered at the hands of her narcissistic mother. I was made aware of that throughout my growing years and had a great deal of sympathy for her. I still do in that respect.

            Sadly, she carried on her mother’s legacy and that means there is no way of salvaging that relationship. The moments in the past where my empath heart reacted to her sorrow were quickly stripped away by another narcissistic behaviour which robbed us both of tender moments. If only that tenderness could have bandaged and healed those wounds, but it was wasted.

            I’m glad you’ve been able to release your anger as your understanding has grown. It does help to know how they came to be the people they are/were, and the hard part is walking away (going no contact) in light of that. Our empathy wants to reach out, but it alights on stone cold hearts closed off to what we have to offer. Coming to terms with that is hard sometimes. I think I’ve used anger to fortify by stance in going no contact. I’m not sure at what point I will be able to release that even with the understanding I have now. It needs to be done, otherwise their hold over me still exists.

            I like your last paragraph, reminding us that we are not trapped in the same way, but we were definitely robbed as they were. I’ve said before that when my mother dies, I will not miss the mother I had, but rather the mother I never had. I think this is a common experience of ACON’s. We don’t grieve for what we had, but rather for what we never had, and more importantly what we deserved.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts again.

          30. A Victor says:

            My empathy doesn’t want to reach out. I won’t miss either, the mother or what ‘should’ve’ been, she wasn’t capable of it so it wasn’t, the end. I have less attachment to her than I did my dad and I don’t miss him or what should’ve been that much with him either. I did grieve for him, he was my good parent. I think that sounds horrible and very cold but it is true. The anger helped ANC at first but since I’ve become quite neutral towards her. It’s probably good that you keep some anger, if that helps you. I’m sad that both of us experienced what we did.

            I don’t think about these things in terms of what I deserve. Some have it far worse, some far better, it is what it is for each of us. It just is.

          31. Witch says:


            Maybe sucking the energy is not the right terminology but I would say when they are with a narcissist they are more easily corrupted. If they are not totally ensnared by a narcissist then they are safe. But when they are ensnared, the risk of them betraying you or wearing you down with their problems is greater.
            Hg has even said he has fucked his primary sources, sisters, best friends… they were probably CoD and envious of the relationship with the narcissist.

          32. Leigh says:

            Hi Witch,
            After reading the comments from others who have dealt with CoDs, I can see how they can be taxing or draining while ensnared by a narcissist. I can be a bit obstinate at times. Jordy’s comment just seemed overly harsh to me. It could’ve been said with a little bit of empathy.

          33. NarcAngel says:

            It is always ok for you to share your thoughts.

            I just referenced the article for anyone who has not read it, or wanted to revisit for the explanation re: narcissism developing as a coping mechanism. It was not to imply that you questioned it at all, as I didn’t even know if you were aware of the article.

            The question was open to anyone, but I addressed it to you because it struck me while reading your comment (and reflecting on the similar thoughts of others), that we (as empaths) are quick to embrace the Co-d’s development in response to abuse/trauma as necessary for survival, a strength, and to be respected, but we do not seem to hold that same belief for the narcissist. I’m NOT saying that we should either. It’s just that both are developed in response to trauma as a coping mechanism, developed as a child, and as children of narcissists.

            So, I wondered the thoughts of others on how we account for the difference. We certainly don’t generally seem to as easily embrace the development of narcissism in the same way. We know the outcome (effect on others) is different between the two, but on the face of it, our majority stance (in this SPECIFIC discussion re: the DEVELOPMENT of a coping mechanism for Co-d’s being necessary, a strength, and respected vs development the of narcissism under similar conditions) seems a bit……discriminatory?

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, I think my previous comment explains my understanding of the development of coping mechanisms and my perspective on those. Your are right, the outcomes of both these coping mechanisms are completely different and in the end there is no comparison. I don’t find it “discriminatory” to confront the reality of these outcomes, though both can be seen to be detrimental. Both CoD empaths and narcissists struggle to see the nature of their dilemma. One, at least we are told, is forever incapacitated from recognising their condition. The discrimination is in the very nature of the condition, not an outgrowth of people’s perceptions.

          35. Leigh says:

            Since you opened up the question to everyone, I thought I’d share how I account for the difference. I’ve been abused by narcs since birth. I haven’t been abused by a CoD. That’s where the difference lies for me and I absolutely 100% discriminate against narcs.

        7. Candied Pansy says:

          @Jordyguin, damn! Codependent empaths sound like narcs (and I might be CoD but if so, it’s embarrassing). I see Prince Harry in your example, the pride in being a “survivor” when it’s obvious they should grow up and clean up. You’re right in how some CoD empaths seem to take pride in handling the abuse, when it’s self sabotaging. I think HG said in his Doormat video that doormat empaths have an odd “strength”. I just asked him more about CoD, and if Doormat is a strongly CoD empath or its own thing. Do you think codependents don’t feel they have the right to live their own life, so that’s why they cling onto narcs, and end up taking pride in true or fake victimhood?

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Hi Pansy! You made me laugh:)) You got it!

            „Do you think codependents don’t feel they have the right to live their own life, so that’s why they cling onto narcs“ — Yes, I think so. You ought to read „Chained“, you hear me! You identified the core of how a majority codependent assimilate her/his purpose. The majority codependent have the most difficult configuration of them all, if you ask me. This empathic school stands on its own, as you’ll see from „Chained“.
            If the codependent percentage is insignificant or the other schools are stronger it would assemble a less heavy chain to drag along with perhaps only a periodical appearance of the self sabotaging, which is easier to deal with due to the stretched out frequency. The recognition of it is a huge energy boost you’ll receive each time you become aware of it! Now you can say „No, thank you“ to the self sabotaging.

          2. Contagious says:

            I have a slight bit of Martyr and I asked HG what it meant he said “ doormat.” Not sure Joan of Arc would agree:)

          3. WiserNow says:


            I’ve noticed a few instances in which the Martyr cadre is mentioned in connection with the CoD school of empath. It’s not only you that have mentioned it. I’ve seen other commenters in other threads make that connection too.

            The Martyr cadre can be found in other schools too and there doesn’t have to be a CoD school in the mix.

          4. Contagious says:

            Let me add Socrates, Thomas Moore, Oscar Romero. Hardly weak to die for what you believe in

          5. Milkweed says:

            With me, I grew up with my mom making me feel guilty for not helping my older sisters when they made poor decisions. Once I learned recently what problems were mine and my responsibility and what was not, I was able to overcome things I never knew was a problem. I just thought my family had more problems than others. Also, it’s difficult when other people make a point to call you when your family member is not doing well and wonder why nobody helped them. It makes it difficult to explain that they made their bed and although it breaks my heart, I am not capable of fixing their situation. I am doing better with this. For me, I just needed the knowledge and awareness that my family has been manipulative and the behaviors I was raised was not normal. And it was beyond “looking out for family”.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Milkweed, regarding your last sentence, I do understand and agree with that concept. I found myself in similar ‘situation’, especially after I started reading and as time went by, more recollections of certain behaviours, just by ‘linking’ them to descriptions of behaviours in certain situations and who was around at that time. When there has been no contact for a long period of time without plausible explanation & reason then one can only “determine” by the action in itself (against the length of time that has passed).

          7. A Victor says:

            Milkweed, thank you for sharing your personal experience here. I am so glad for you to have found narcsite and been able to learn and grow. I am not a CoD, not sure if you are, but what you wrote resonated with me, we have the ability to make different choices once we have the truth. It is exciting!

        8. WiserNow says:


          “Not only do they appear similar, they’re capable to suck all the energy out of you just as a narcissist would.”

          If a CoD depends on you, and more importantly, if you allow your compassion (or guilt or obligation or duty or love) to give them what they want, then, yes, I agree with you – they are capable of sucking all the energy out of you.

          My father is a CoD (I strongly suspect) and while I love him, I also have to be self-aware of my emotional thinking about him too.

          Where I don’t agree is that my father has NEVER pissed himself – EVER. If anything, he is *too* self-conscious, self-critical, self-deprecating. And because of that, he is even more concerned about doing things perfectly and meticulously. I think he would be mortified if he pissed himself and he wouldn’t ask anyone to clean it up.

          At the same time, he doesn’t see his own good points. He looks to the narcissists in my family and thinks they are ‘leaders’ and gives them the power in the dynamic. Then, when he subconsciously ‘sees’ that the narcissist is not as ‘grand’ and all-powerful as they led him to believe, he looks to me to ‘save’ him and criticises me if I don’t. Then, if I don’t, he considers that the narcissists were right about me all along and I deserve to be the scapegoat.

          In a nutshell, CoDs are as blind in some ways as the narcissist. So, yes, they are draining and also very stubborn.

          What I find in your comment Jordyguin, is that you are very critical of a CoD for not being able to change. Have you considered that the CoD’s behaviour is due to a genetic predisposition and a LOCE (lack of control environment)?

          It’s exactly the same case as the narcissist’s genetic predisposition and LOCE.

          For some reason though, a narcissist is ‘forgiven’ for this and a CoD is not. People accept that a narcissist “can’t change”, yet they are angry with the CoD for not changing.

          The general belief in the information available is that it is more possible for a CoD to change than it is for a narcissist, however, in my experience, I have found that a CoD is nearly as stubborn and ingrained in their thinking as a narcissist is. They would need total no contact from a narcissist as well as intensive therapy to change and that is not always easy or possible to achieve.

          Consider the following scenario. I have taken your exact words and changed them to fit a narcissist.

          I killed someone.“ A narcissist would announce.
          „Ok, do something about it. Get up, clean and change!“ Everyone around them would say.
          „No, you don’t understand! I killed someone! Do you still love me btw????“
          „Well, you begin to stink. Do something about it.“
          „You are mean! Why can’t you understand that I killed someone. I always kill someone. I remember the first time I killed someone it was… If I could only change the past, but actually I’m proud of killing someone. It’s my strongest trait in fact. I am worthy of killing someone and you just don’t understand. Love me, love me, love me…“

          What is more dangerous to others?… killing someone else (whether physically, emotionally, spiritually) or cleaning someone else’s mess that costs the person making the mess the most?

          I agree with you on the following too:
          “’Do something about. and hang up. There is really nothing one can do for them. They must do it themselves.”

          …this is true for both the CoD **and** the narcissist.

          1. Jordyguin says:

            Dear Wiser Now, thank you for your thoughtful observations! I agree with all of them!
            Yea, the *pissed* phrasing left of course a freedom to interpretation, but you understood the nature of my frustration:))

          2. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Jordyguin 🙂 yes, I think I understood the nature of your frustration.

            I think it’s possible to have empathy and feel frustration at the same time. In fact, sometimes the feeling of frustration is a sign that you care enough to still want the CoD to change in order to help and free themselves.

            If you weren’t frustrated or annoyed about them being in a situation that wasn’t healthy for them, you would be indifferent or past the point of wanting to help them.

          3. annaamel says:

            Interesting comment, WN.

            I see a few differences between a CD and a N.

            For one, narcissism is a self defence mechanism which is largely sealed, which makes it, by its very nature, resistant to efforts to deconstruct it. The narcissism will fight to stay intact – that’s its psychological job. The brain has so many ways of protecting people from overload and as one of those protections narcissism is stubbornly stable.

            While there is similarity in their origins, I think codependency is not a defence mechanism like narcissism. It is a coping mechanism but it doesn’t have the extra dimension of resistance that narcissism involves. I think you’re correct that intervention, support, guidance, education and therapy can make a big difference for empaths who experience difficulties due to co-dependence. I think they can more easily accept deconstruction if their beliefs if they can see they might be inaccurate and which could lead them into abusive situations.

            Secondly, empaths can be moved to make changes if they believe they are hurting or damaging others. This is another way they are more responsive to the right kinds of interventions – interventions which clarify who might be being hurt and how they could reduce that effect. That’d never move a narcissist.

            So while I see your point that there might be similarities (in behaviours as well as upbringings) they do differ and thus it’s more understandable to hope they can make changes than it is to hope the narcissist will change.

          4. WiserNow says:

            Thanks annaamel, and your reply is interesting too.

            There are aspects of your reply I agree with, and there are also aspects where I think you have interpreted my comment in a certain way. The way you have interpreted my comment is from a different angle compared to what I had in mind.

            In your reply, you have focused mainly on literal differences between a narcissist and CoD. In so doing, it’s as though you are taking a close-up look at each one’s behavioural condition and considering each in isolation of the social world around them. To describe it another way, it’s like you’re a scientist studying each one’s psychology in a laboratory removed from the social environment in which the narcissist and CoD are described and defined by others.

            In my comment, I considered the narcissist and CoD differently. My point was about how people around them think about or regard them. This includes things like social attitudes; stereotypes; language used; emotional reactions; and cognitive biases that arise – in general – in relation to each one.

            I agree with you that in a scientific or detached kind of comparison, there are ‘objective’ similarities and differences. These differences include things like where on the spectrum each one is; or the fact that academic research shows CoDs can change while narcissists cannot, etc.

            The question I was asking was more about the value judgements or prejudices that arise about them.

            Jordyguin described the CoD’s tendency to suffer abuse as the CoD ‘pissing’ themselves. Other people (including myself) described the CoD as frustrating or exhausting or draining. These are all derogatory and invalidating descriptions. They are callous and minimising.

            On the other hand, the narcissist – who is the abuser – is thought of (generally) in stereotypical terms as having strength or power, as being ‘capable’ or ‘kick-ass’. Even the description ‘macchiavellian’ has connotations of being clever or strategic or savvy.

            For example, take this blog. HG uses the words ‘Ultra’ for a narcissist and ‘doormat’ for a CoD and these defining terms that every reader is being conditioned with every time while reading are taken for granted as being ‘valid’ definitions.

            In the meantime, people can also see that the physical world as we know it is has many faults and is not getting any better.

            In my comment, the point I was making was that each condition is due to a genetic predisposition combined with a LOCE. Each condition derives from childhood development and instinctive protective behaviours. In this regard, there is no reason to place value judgements on either one.

            In one aspect of your reply, you have said that narcissism arose as a “self-defence mechanism” while codependence arose as a “coping mechanism”. Without delving into biological or scientific definitions but taking a more general, conversational approach, to me there is no difference between a ‘self-defence mechanism’ and a ‘coping mechanism’. Each term can be used interchangeably and would still make sense for either the narcissist or the CoD.

            Why is there a difference? Even the term ‘self-defence’ has a stronger or more ‘valid’ or more ‘courageous’ connotation than ‘coping’. However, this is just like an abstract undertone to imply that one is stronger or more ‘justified’ while the other has connotations of being ‘lesser’.

            Your comment also made me think about why it is that a CoD can change while the narcissist’s self-defence mechanism (or coping mechanism) is ‘sealed’.

            Every human being needs some narcissistic traits to survive, even the CoD, otherwise survival would be impossible. On the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum, a psychopath has no empathic traits at all and can still survive.

            To me, the “extradimension of resistance” you describe a narcissist as having is another way to say that the narcissist has no ability to self-reflect because the narcissist has no empathic traits. However, the narcissist does not need to self-reflect or have empathic traits because survival can still occur, albeit at the expense of other people and damaged relationships.

            In comparison, you say that a CoD “can more easily accept deconstruction of their beliefs”. In considering this concept, I see that a CoD has at least some narcissistic traits along with a large proportion of empathic traits. The narcissistic traits allow for self-protection (i.e. survival) but to a small degree. In order to change behaviour, the CoD needs to access and focus on these narcissistic traits in order to make room for them in the midst of a much larger extent of empathic traits.

            To summarise, I am questioning the social biases and stereotypes that occur in relation to a narcissist compared with a CoD (or empath). There seems to be an undercurrent of abstract beliefs that imply narcissistic traits are ‘strong’ or ‘winning’ or ‘admirable’ while empathic traits are ‘weak’ or ‘losing’ or ‘shameful’. If each one occurs instinctively and one is harmful to others while the other is mainly self-harming, then the abstract beliefs are misplaced.

          5. annaamel says:

            Hi WN.

            ‘My point was about how people around them think about or regard them. This includes things like social attitudes; stereotypes; language used; emotional reactions; and cognitive biases that arise – in general – in relation to each one.’

            I think I did understand that. It seemed to me that you were a bit frustrated that there’s pressure on CoDs to reform themselves but no such pressure on the Narcissist, when, in your mind, there should be either equal pressure on both (which might be none, a little or a lot) or more pressure on the narcissist as they are more destructive and dangerous.

            I suppose my response to that was to suggest that there was less potential (as I see it) for narcissists to reform – to change their thinking, change their patterns.

            However I recognise use that you may not see it that way.

            ‘you have said that narcissism arose as a “self-defence mechanism” while codependence arose as a “coping mechanism”. Without delving into biological or scientific definitions but taking a more general, conversational approach, to me there is no difference between a ‘self-defence mechanism’ and a ‘coping mechanism’. Each term can be used interchangeably and would still make sense for either the narcissist or the CoD.
            Why is there a difference? Even the term ‘self-defence’ has a stronger or more ‘valid’ or more ‘courageous’ connotation than ‘coping’. However, this is just like an abstract undertone to imply that one is stronger or more ‘justified’ while the other has connotations of being ‘lesser’.

            I can understand that self defence has a nuance of strength and assertiveness to it whilst coping seems more passive. But that’s not why I applied the term coping to co-dependent empaths and self-defence to narcissists. I agree they are both coping and both defending themselves (in extreme and threatening environments). What I meant with the distinction was that once in place, the narcissism becomes a permanent defence and even defends itself against efforts by others to support or assist the individual, which the narcissistic construct will interpret as a threat. I don’t see the CoD empath as being as resistant to offers of support. Somewhat resistant (as readers here have commented) but not completely, and when not ensnared are able to accept constructive efforts from others to help them become more aware of themselves and errors in their thinking (I need someone else, I’m not strong etc) which readers have also acknowledged in their comments.

            I also understand your point about viewing narcissists positively (as strong, for eg.) while seeing empaths as weak. I agree confidence is certainly valued in our society. But narcissists are generally seen as being very selfish and that’s rarely admired. So I don’t necessarily agree that narcissists are portrayed positively overall. Here, yes, HG emphasises the positive and glorified element as part of the production, because it resonates with the readers. But he also says, and I quote, ‘empaths have many great qualities’ and I’m opting to take that one at face value. I think he does admire some of the traits empaths show – honesty, compassion, fairness, a sense of justice. And I think many in our society values these traits too.

            Thankyou for your detailed reply to my comment.

          6. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome annaamel. Thank you also for your thoughtful reply.

            “So I don’t necessarily agree that narcissists are portrayed positively overall. Here, yes, HG emphasises the positive and glorified element as part of the production, because it resonates with the readers.”

            “…it resonates with the readers.”
            Yes… yes it does. Boy oh boy how it resonates.

            HG can admit to fucking his girlfriend’s sister. He can admit to having 15 mistresses. He can admit to smashing a relay baton into his girlfriend’s knee because he was jealous of her running ability gaining attention. He can admit to finding it entertaining to think of brutally smashing people in the head by swinging a morning star weapon (look it up if you don’t know what a morning star weapon is).

            But show people a pair of male legs in red shorts and let them hear a baritone masculine voice…

            It resonates in another way too.

            Who wants to be a ‘victim’? Who wants to be a ‘scapegoat’?

            It’s better to be a ‘victor’, isn’t it? It’s better to be a ‘golden child’.

            The only thing is, if there’s a ‘winner’, it automatically follows that there’s a ‘loser’. If there’s a ‘golden child’, it automatically follows that there’s a ‘scapegoat’.

            Therefore, nothing at all has changed. There’s simply a role reversal in exactly the same environment.

            “I think he does admire some of the traits empaths show – honesty, compassion, fairness, a sense of justice. And I think many in our society values these traits too.”

            I also think HG ‘admires’ these traits. But why?

            To a narcissist, these traits offer fuel, character traits and residual benefits. They are used and abused. HG doesn’t have those traits, he uses other people who do have them.

            But… because HG resonates with readers…

          7. HG Tudor says:

            You mean envious, not jealous and its okay, I understand.

          8. annaamel says:

            HG can admit to fucking his girlfriend’s sister. He can admit to having 15 mistresses. He can admit to smashing a relay baton into his girlfriend’s knee because he was jealous of her running ability gaining attention.

            While I cannot know for sure I’m going to guess that most of these things happened when he was in his late teens or twenties. As people get older their behaviour generally settles and they become less destructive. I did things in my teens and twenties I would not do now. That he’s willing to reveal his poor behaviour is admirable. He’s prepared to be thought of badly to illustrate the narcissist mindset and approach to frustration.

            ‘He can admit to finding it entertaining to think of brutally smashing people in the head by swinging a morning star weapon (look it up if you don’t know what a morning star weapon is).’

            I do know and I know the conversation you’re referring to. He’s said many times he carries inner fury at all times so is it is not surprising he easily and enjoyably imagines doing damage to heads with weapons. There’s a poem by Gwen Harwood where she repeatedly fantasies about maiming those her family or visitors because she’ trapped in 1950s housewifedom and there’s few avenues for her to rebel – so fantasies help her manage her inner agitation.

            ‘But show people a pair of male legs in red shorts and let them hear a baritone masculine voice…’

            Of course. And more besides – his milkshake brings them to the yard. People will ignore problems if they’re attracted – this is a common thread through many of the personal stories here. Do you believe that’s not happening in your case?

            I also think HG ‘admires’ [honesty, compassion, fairness, a sense of justice]. But why?
            To a narcissist, these traits offer fuel, character traits and residual benefits. They are used and abused.’

            I genuinely think he admires them (or if admires is too strong a word, respects them). I say this because I see how he doesn’t respect their opposites in other people. He doesn’t respect authenticity, he doesn’t respect unfairness or selfishness, he doesn’t respect ignorance. It may be ironic given his narcissism means he will lie and be self focused but that doesn’t mean he promotes that behaviour or accepts it from others. I don’t think he values those traits only insofar as they’re useful to him.

          9. WiserNow says:


            In your earlier comment, you said narcissism “by its very nature, [is] resistant to efforts to deconstruct it.” You said it “will fight to stay intact” and is “stubbornly stable.” You also said narcissism has “an extra dimension of resistance.”

            HG has recently said he “needs” to alleviate his inner boredom. He also recently said he still “utilises” fire.

            HG spoke recently of his 15 mistresses in a live YouTube video streamed in the last one or two years. In the video, he answered questions posed by viewers.

            Considering these points, it’s contradictory and a leap of faith to say you are “going to guess that most of these things happened when he was in his late teens or twenties. As people get older their behaviour generally settles and they become less destructive.”

            You certainly are an avid supporter though. Would you describe yourself as a lieutenant?

            In describing what HG does and doesn’t respect, you have taken another leap in speaking for another person. How would you know what HG respects?

            More to the point, do you respect misogyny? Do you respect people being treated as objects?

            Further to your reply, once again you have missed my point.

            Your comment centres on defending HG and minimising his admissions of “poor behaviour”. Calling it “poor behaviour” is quite a euphemism in itself. One of the behaviours is assault causing actual bodily harm which is a crime.

            The point I was making was about framing narcissism and codependency as some kind of contest that concludes with ‘winners’ and ‘losers’. My point was that such a role reversal doesn’t change the environment. Instead it exacerbates black and white thinking.

            You haven’t addressed this part of my comment.

          10. annaamel says:

            Hi WiserNow.

            I’d consider myself a reserved supporter. I don’t even meet many of the criteria for the coterie, so I’d make a poor lieutenant.

            Am to my respect of misogyny, I take it you’re suggesting that HG has shown himself to be a misogynist and if I show support for him in some way I’m supporting misogyny, but I’m not sure which behaviours you’re referring to. The many mistresses, the baton smashing, general devaluation and abusive treatment of IPs? Something else? Could you clarify please (and I’m happy for you to correct me if I’ve got it wrong).

            As for the missed point, I *think* you are suggesting that the language emphasising a winner/loser dynamic is also a drawcard for the site. I don’t disagree. You also suggest its use reinforces black and white thinking. That’s probably true as well. But I think some readers may benefit from thinking in that way because the messier grey area is making it hard for them to extricate themselves when they really need to do so.

          11. WiserNow says:


            The questions asked in my comment were directed to you irrespective of HG, HG’s behaviour, or this blog. This conversation between you and I is specifically based on your beliefs and mine.

            It sounds to me like you are expressing your views in ways to simultaneously defend HG or HG’s behaviours.

            My questions are specifically about your personal views and values. They are straightforward questions that elicit either a yes or no answer.

            Do you, annaamel, respect misogyny? Yes or no?
            Do you, annaamel, respect people being treated as objects? Yes or no?

            “I think some readers may benefit from thinking in that way because the messier grey area is making it hard for them to extricate themselves when they really need to do so.”

            On paper, black and white thinking is clear-cut and easy to grasp. I agree. In stories, books, films, and theories, the existence of a ‘winner’ and a ‘loser’ makes it easy to envision a plot or an ‘ideal world view’. There is a hero and a villain, a story arc and resolution. There is a ‘happy ending’ if necessary and audiences can leave feeling like they were taken on a journey and brought back home safe and sound, able to resume their real-life existence as before. All of these things are valid and have their benefits.

            In reality though, the “messy grey areas” persist. If you step out of one messy grey area, there are another 100 to work your way through. We can’t escape other people and their myriad beliefs and personalities. We can’t escape society and social conventions. We can decide to avoid narcissists; or those we don’t like or don’t trust; or those we have had a disagreement with. If that’s the case, we will have to keep avoiding most people we come across. I don’t believe this is realistic.

            Understanding narcissism and empathy is necessary, I totally agree. Extricating yourself from a relationship with a narcissist is necessary, I agree with this also. Total extrication may not be possible, and in those cases, education and methods of self-protection are necessary. For these reasons, I support HG’s knowledge about narcissism and psychopathy and respect his advice.

            The messy grey areas that persist require self-control and self-possessed actions. This requires self-knowledge and also an inner belief system based on personal values. These personal values are not stubbornness or rigid thinking, but rather a ‘template’ of guidelines where the template is constantly being considered and re-evaluated in light of new learning and knowledge. There will be situations where you will think or feel as though you have ‘won’ and others where you think or feel you have ‘lost’. These thoughts and feelings are personal perspectives. They are not objective reality.

            If those in society who have political power or economic power are mainly narcissists who do not have empathy or a conscience, then the power they obtain is not conducive to a well-functioning society.

            If individuals want to live in a society that functions constructively and progressively, each individual, I believe, needs to consider their own personal values and how they contribute or not to the society.

            (.. and now, at the risk of being called a saint or prissy knickers or rude or nice or whatever else anyone wants to call me, this is too much ‘world order’ thinking for my tired brain on a Sunday morning. I’m going to enjoy some toast with butter and honey and have another cup of coffee 🙂 xx)

          12. annaamel says:

            Hi WN

            I see.