Questioning Me
Do feel free to ask me anything you like. I am here for you to dip into my mind and for you to benefit from learning how I view the world. No question is off limits and if you want to establish a dialogue with me, then so much the better. You will be helping me so I can show the treatment team that I am interacting with people in this setting. You can ask me why I do certain things, what am I thinking, what my favourite food is, whatever you like. This is your chance to extract as much knowledge and information from me as you possibly can. If you want to just make a statement, go ahead. Fill your boots. I don’t know you so I won’t fly into a rage (this does happen when people I know question me but that is because they have an agenda – you don’t because we don’t know one another). I look forward to hearing from you.
10,709 thoughts on “Questioning Me”
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Dear HG,
I have a question about the shelf life.
3 months ago an hoover happened by an ex colleugue.
I had been an ipss for a brief period 2 y ago.
I think she is an UMR somatic (30.000 red flags).
She returned to her home (south italy) during this last months, but she promised me “we will meet again when I will return”.
She was very gentile and interested in this messages (many emoticon etc.)
In the last weeks I sent messages to her… “Happy birthday” – “I love your new picture etc.”
She responded but after many hours and very briefly, cold… sometimes just with reactions (whatsapp)
Days ago I asked her “Are you still in Naples”.
She responded a day later “Yes”
I think I’m painted white but not wanted and/or needed.
Do you think this idea is right?
I know I should simply implement no contact.
However, she was not “my type” of woman.
She is very grandiose, patological liar and full of money.
I simply enjoyed spent time with her, have dinners etc…
The narc wich are absolutely devastating for me are MMR A MMR B.
“Casually” the schools of my parents (In the future maybe I will use the n detector on them).
1. Ascertain if the individual is a narcissist using the Narc Detector.
2. If so, implement no contact and utilise the Self Life material from the Knowledge Vault.
Dear DFr,
Why is she supposed to respond to you right away? You are not her husband or bf.
She doesn’t owe you anything. If she has promised you smth, and then changed her mind, it doesn’t mean she is a pathological liar. She has probably just lost interest in you. That’s it. I’m sorry.
At the same time, you are saying, she is not your type. She probably feels this attitude of yours. She doesn’t like it. You are not serious about her, she treats you the same. What do you expect from her?
I don’t see any red flags on her part to indicate she is a narcissist, tbh.
Hi HG,
It took me a few years to leave a comment here. I read a lot of your articles and watched your YT videos but interacting with you felt a bit scary if I’m honest! I’m getting over that now and appreciate your candour, logic and the time you give us all.
I initially wondered if you’d set this all up to get empaths email addresses and maybe had nefarious ways to find out who we all are and ultimately let our narcissists know what we’d said about them! 🥷 Far fetched possibly and learning about you, that doesn’t seem logical but my question is:
Has it ever crossed your mind to double cross us?
Ps I know I sound a bit paranoid lol but I am learning that prevention is better than cure!
An understandable albeit incorrect assumption. I have no desire to help “your” narcissists, balls to them, they need to up their game. Moreover, such activity would hamstring my legacy.
It is paranoid but there is nothing wrong with maintaining some healthy critical thinking.
There is no need to double cross my readership. I do plenty of the “nefarious” in my personal interactions.
Thanks HG! ☺️
Yep, I’m working on my healthy critical thinking. 😅 I can be very feelings led which I think can be a good and bad thing at times!
A couple more questions (they’ll probably slow down at some point soon lol!):
1. Has writing this blog made you less or more effective as a psychopath/ narcissistic in your own life? I thought I’d read a while back that it slowed you down somewhat with machinations, by getting to know your readers more but I read recently that it has made you “more effective”? Does that mean at manipulation etc? And I guess both could be true at the same time?
2. Have you ever done a consultation with someone you realised you knew IRL? And how did you feel if so?
3. You seem accepting of who you are since realising with an ex girlfriends help. Did that take work or does the grandiosity traits help you with this?
1. It has increased my effectiveness.
2. I have not undertaken a consultation and then realised “Oh, I know this person IRL.”
3. It is simply logic.
Thanks again HG. I guess you understand us even more and your narcissism has to utilise that in your life.
Re consultations.. I was imagining someone coming to you and complaining about HG in their life.. which would be awkward! 😅 Tho of course you’d deal with it.
Yes. Logic. That makes sense. I guess I wondered if you resented being what you are but I think there’s pros and cons for everyone and it’s hard being empathic too in a different way so I guess not.
Another few questions for you (I keep wanting to apologise for asking a lot but I know that’s what we’re doing here)!
1. Do you feel pleased or proud maybe that you are not just being “nefarious” lol IRL and that you help people here and on YT too? I know you don’t believe in God, but are you proud of the work you do here and do you ever think of it in terms of a balancing of “karma” (or maybe something more logical! 😉)?
2. Do you think future generations might come up with ways to help narcissists change? Medically or psychologically.
3. Could you explain more about the moment someone becomes a narcissist? Is there a defining point in time and is it related to “the creature”? vs someone “just” having narcissistic traits and not having “the creature”?
4. What happens to the narcissists “inner child”?
5. Do you plan as part of your legacy to reveal your identity before or after death?
1. I am proud of my work because it is the best. I do not subscribe to karma.
2. There is the possibility that something might be invented which effects that change at a cellular level.
3. This is too detailed for an answer in a comment. I have made a note.
4. See 3.
5. That is a secret.
Thanks again HG 👍
Hello Jade,
what HG meant when talking about slowing down with his machinations is that he now has a greater awareness and insight as well as excellent control over himself and consequently slows HIMSELF down in terms of his reaction to a threat to control. He consciously gives himself more time to reflect on the appropriate reaction before acting and therefore often will select a benign or less malign manipulation now, where he would have had a quicker malign reaction before. He understands, for example, that often an action or remark from the IPPS is not meant to wound or criticise him but originates from caring about him. Therefore he often actively chooses to slow down his reaction in order to find the one which gives him the best result, which often happens to be the benign manipulation. That means he is becoming even more effective.
It does not mean that his reflexes have slowed down or anything of that kind. It just means he has more options to choose from and takes his time – and it might be no more than a second – to make that conscious choice instead of reacting reflexively.
That’s really helpful Anna, thank you very much for explaining. It sounds like a form of mindfulness in a way. That makes complete sense now. 👌
We know “Normal” narcissists can’t change but it does indicate a shift towards less malign.
HG – how possible would that be for other Ns /Ps to do ? The more I ask questions, the more I feel that your psychopathy and logic is an important part of what makes you different from other narcissists and hence the Ultra.
You are not going to achieve that with Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissists which as you know, make up the vast majority of narcissists.
Hi again Anna and HG,
Thinking on this more, if you realise your IPPS was exbhibiting caring HG and not actually threatening your control, do you ever have the option to take no manipulation as an action at all (even benign?).
Every interaction between a narcissist and a person (or potential interaction) is a manipulation because it is always self-serving to the narcissist and invariably premised on something that is misleading (even if not malign) concerning the other person.
Thank you Anna .. that really helps and HG for the further information.
Yup HG, that’s true.
I read Anna Plyance’s explanation about mindfulness and it warmed my heart.
I scrolled through the comments below and saw H.G. Tudor’s answer and was upset
“You are not going to achieve that with Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissists which as you know, make up the vast majority of narcissists”
H.G. Tudor and even the Upper Mid-Ranger? They take antidepressants, go to psychotherapy, they are doctors, one of them is a psychiatrist – even admits that he is a narcissist. No chance?
No chance.
Focus on you. Not the narcissist.
A good reminder HG re focussing on ourselves. ✊
“Focus on you. Not the narcissist”.
It’s difficult!! They attack me from all sides!!! Apparently I already have my own fuel matrix of narcissists. Choose to suit any taste, as they say)))))) I open my page on a social network and go down the list…. Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissists, cerebral and somatic and so on classifications.
And these are both men and women.
I have no choice but to study narcissists, understand narcissists, learn to interact with them with fewer losses for me. They are always in my life and there is always more than one of them.
Therefore, I am very grateful to you H.G. Tudor for providing us with such a unique opportunity – to learn and study.
P.S. I am not even mentioning the fact that my father is most likely (I just don’t want to believe it and admit it) a narcissist. Grandma was clearly a narcissist (my father’s mother).
Crikey Josephina! You’ve got a lot of them to deal with. 😬
I’ve been cutting them out of my life (or VLC in Mom’s case) over the past five years and embracing my innate inner hermit (which nmom tried to groom out of me) so I don’t get to see very many these days luckily.. I used to be surrounded too though so I know how hard that can be. Take good care of yourself.
It’s hard also admitting a parent is one, I know (or at least that you need to avoid them as much as possible because of red flags/difficult behaviour). 🙁
Jade, I wrote all this, then when I reread it I was upset. It came out somehow gloomy. But, everything is not so bad. Although from the outside it really looks bad.
My grandmother died, and my father and I live in different cities, we see each other once a year, talk periodically on the phone, I would say that from a distance he is harmless to me, I would even call our relationship “good”. I love him.
With my main narcissist, we have not communicated for many years, he remained in the same city where my father is. He is married and has a child. The last time we communicated was about 4 years ago. I wrote him a message when for the first time in my life I began to interact with someone similar to him, plus there was another difficult event in my life, so I “broke down”. To which he replied: “Just decide whether you need this or not. Do not try to save him or help him somehow, just guide him.” I then thought, what a bastard, why haven’t you told me all these years: “Don’t try to save ME or help ME in any way!” I wrote: “Everything is bad, I feel like I’m back on this scorched earth.” And he said, “Don’t be afraid. There is another side, you’re just afraid to see it. Just decide whether you need it or not.” I then sent him a link to this site, saying: “But that could have been you!” I once suggested that he write a book, I gave him many arguments: you will go down in history, you will be unique… and so on, it sounded better there. As if I thought that I had some kind of “mission” in relation to him. I understand, it sounds crazy. But our interactions had some kind of existential meaning for me. As a result, “I agreed” with him then (this was before I found this site) that when we are 60 years old, or before death, we will meet and he will tell me all his secrets (even if not for publication))))))). No, a narcissist for whom you matter, but there is a narcissist who is important to you. He was important once.
In my city, the other part of my family remained, whom I love very much and my father, in fact, too. But I can’t go back there, because my narcissist is there. The city is small. All the doctors intersect with each other one way or another. That’s why I can’t. And for some reason he is not going to leave there (although there are a lot of better options and this is not his hometown).
Well, and all those whom I meet now are mainly colleagues at work or managers at work (it’s more difficult here, I will soon take a consultation with H.G. Tudor) because I am exhausted from changing jobs.
Dating sites for me are “find out the narcissist next door”. I wish I hadn’t known, by God. And then, when I read what H.G. Tudor wrote about narcissists spreading their hunting grounds there, I understood.
Josephina, I didn’t feel it was gloomy, it just felt honest to me. I have no doubt you’re handling things well. ✊ It’s good that you’ve created a way to have a good relationship with your dad too.
I understand how your relationship with your main narc felt like it had existential meaning. It’s strange what some people can bring up in us and vice versa and their effects, good and bad, can last a long time even when we don’t see them anymore. That’s been my experience too. It sounds like you’re going the logical things with location, dating and consulting HG. 👌 sometimes it feels slow doesn’t it, but one step at a time we start to feel progress. You’ve got this!
Jade, thank you very much for your support, for your kind words. In fact, it is such a joy to talk about all this in a way where you are understood and not judged. Where they understand because they have been through all this themselves. Where they do not think that you are “exaggerating”. But I think I need to stop in my flow.
My pleasure Josephina, I’m getting a lot from being here too and do get it but also that you need to stop too.
Josephina, what I’ve learned from HG and also heard other aware narcissists/psychopaths and the victims of those gone through therapy confirm is that therapy makes them more honed manipulators. In therapy they learn how to better mirror the expectations of the society and learn to better understand/ manipulate their victims/ targets. And HG framed it perfectly: “They gave me understanding without feeling”. Let it sink in, it’s profound: They gave me understanding…WITHOUT…feeling… Remove the feeling, remove remorse and conscience and add the Prime Aims of the narcissist or/and psychopath to this state without feeling. It is a heavy brew in which therapy boosts their arsenal, adding more refined and deadlier bullets to the gun.
…There is this psychopath (russian chap) who also happens to be a therapist in one of his professions (he has several to stimulate him) and has channels across all platforms and he does livestreams sometimes where he answers questions and it’s hilarious at times when there are aware narcissists and psychopaths younglings or wannabe manipulators asking for manipulation techniques to apply on their victim and within the next moment there is a victim who asks for advice against the manipulation and he genuinely gives advice to both; a) how to bind the victim more stronger etc. and b) how for the victim to unbind. He has no preferences and no moral principles even though he is genuine to those who ask for his advice but he doesn’t care who wins this battle. He provides understanding or techniques, the rest is up to you. Airing his knowledge and advice, receiving stimulation, playing games, accumulating appliances is not hindered by fear in any form and he does not stumble upon moral dilemmas. (Listen to The Gauge video from HG re moral dilemmas!)
Overall I’ve heard the social media narcissists who speak out on therapy usually confirm how they like professional therapy or how they benefit from their personal wannabe therapists (their victims) who give it all to save them, helping them to change to become better at pro social behaviour which is just pro social masking in reality. And when they’re out of therapy it truly benefits them, they do get better… in their manipulations.
The video where HG explains the effect of therapy.
Psychopath : Cure Me? It was a Finishing School for Empathy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNspHa_rv4o
And this one has a great recipe in it how to help to cure the narcissist finally!
Helping a Narcissist Fix Their Personality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9LKc5rdEic
“A couple more questions (they’ll probably slow down at some point soon lol!)”
Jade, keep going no need to slow down. It’s awesome when people have that drive and talent to ask the right questions which are stimulating for HG to answer. Some questions may have been answered before (it’s usually where no answer comes) but you can’t know that. You’re doing fine. Love your questions and HG’s answers!
Thanks Jordyguin, I appreciate that!
He threw a grenade. There’s going to be an explosion now!!
Jordyguin !!
So what should I do now, tell them all to go to hell??
Treat them like monsters?
Let go of Scar’s hand so he can fly headlong into the abyss? (This is not my metaphor. My “main” narcissist constantly pestered me with this cartoon. “If you were Simba and I were Scar, would you let go of my hand?”).
What do you suggest?
You know, there’s a movie directed, as I understand it, by a psychopath. Briefly, the plot: there’s a guy, a simple mechanic, conducting diagnostics of residential buildings, who discovers that a HUGE crack has run through the entire high-rise and that only a few days remain before the building collapses. Well, so this empathetic young man, with good intentions, runs to the city administration and says: “Please, we urgently need to evict people from the dormitory, it will collapse soon, people will die!” And it seems like the city administration is starting to take some steps… but everything is stalled, bureaucracy, everyone is tied up, there is no money, as they say, and they tell our hero, “Sorry, we can’t help. Maybe the building will not collapse yet.” Then they try to kill this guy as a witness, but he is saved by the presence of conscience in some of the people who were brought to the execution with him. In the end, the guy runs home, takes his wife and child and tries to leave the city with them. But on the way home, he understands that he will not be able to live in peace, knowing that he did nothing to warn these people. (The moral law inside me – according to Kant). His wife and child leave, and he runs to this dormitory, runs through all the floors of the building, warns every person. Doing a good deed!! So what? A crowd of these people gathers around the dormitory building, looks at the building, and it… doesn’t fall at the same second, damn. The ending: they kick our EMPATHIC hero to death. Here’s your good.
Do I want the same thing to happen to me?? NO!
Do you think I’m not critical and can’t look the truth in the eye no matter how painful it is?
You know, my main of Greater narcissist, he told me who he is, not because he was thinking about me, worried, wanted to save me. He wasn’t thinking about me, he was thinking about himself! He said when he met me: “You know, I always knew that some kind of punishment awaited me. That my abilities can’t just be like that.” Translation from narcissistic: “Fuck, I was just lucky! I hit the Jackpot! If God exists, he’s definitely a psychopath.” By telling me “who he is,” he provided himself with PARADISE. Positive fuel, negative fuel, Fuel to challenge… God, what a genius bastard! (Considering his age at the time, he was twice as brilliant!). He was just having fun, squeezing every last drop out of me. Pressing all the buttons to the max, playing on everything possible, on empathic traits, on narcissistic traits. It’s like you have an Apple iPhone and most people use its functions around 10% and buy it only because of the brand. He used 100% out of 100, sometimes more. “Used” is the key word here.
Do you think I don’t get it? I’ve been reading H.G. Tudor for four years now, I get it.
I have to interact with narcissists. The only way is “no contact”. Do I have to change jobs every fucking time? FACT! The chief doctors of most clinics are PSYCHOPATHS, NARCISSISTS! Leave medicine, lock myself at home, not live?
But when I am forced to interact with them, it does NOT help me to see them as monstrous, ruthless bastards. And that is NOT the WHOLE truth! I see many talented, successful, unique people who change this world for the better. Who make the impossible possible (in a good way). “the Prime Aims”. Thoughts are not important – actions are important!! They do a lot of good things.
And you know, cognitive empathy is sometimes much more compassionate than regular empathy. People are MOSTLY indifferent. They just don’t give a damn.
And one more thing: I have never seen a SINGLE HAPPY NARCISSISS without CPTSD (and I have seen many, believe me).
Where do I see pain, should I say: “I don’t see it”?
And yes, thinking about what my Greater Narcissist COULD do and did not do… As I once told him: “You can be a gift to this world, or you can be a punishment.” I am glad and grateful when they choose the second. It is more difficult: it is easier to break than to build. This commands respect.
I have no illusions. But I do not lose faith either. I am looking for this damn balance.
Because it does NOT help me to look at them and see monsters in them.
It does not help me.
P.S. I will watch the video, thank you.
Jordyguin
I listened to the videos, they are great, thanks to H.G. Tudor.
But there are a couple of “buts”. Contradictions inside me.
1) When you are a “good Samaritan” it is one thing. When you are a doctor and it is part of your profession – it is another.
2) The personality of a narcissist cannot be cured. But what about the fact that many diseases were not cured before? And how the hell did they start to treat them? Probably because people wanted to make it possible and tried, tried, tried. How do discoveries happen?
And this movie: “Lorenzo’s Oil”, based on real events, where parents (without medical education, invented a cure for their dying son. Yes, they did not save him, but they extended his life and saved the lives of hundreds of other children with this disease).
When I entered medical school, we were told: “Borderline personality disorder cannot be cured. Like all personality disorders.” Having started working, I learned that “it is very possible”. Many patients, having completed a course of group DBT therapy, no longer met the criteria for this disorder. Life flows, everything changes, progress does not stand still.
3) Before this site, I did not know that there are such conscious narcissists, ready to talk about their narcissism so openly. This became possible 11 years ago. 1 person H.G. Tudor. But still HE Is, and HE Appeared. 11 years ago it seemed impossible.
4) How about the fact that if the personality of a narcissist is what it is and he cannot be changed, then how about the fact that an empath also cannot be changed and he will act in accordance with his instincts? (even despite all the training)
5) Proven fact: our brain is constantly changing, neuroplasticity. Does this work on all people, but not on narcissists?
P.S. I liked the comment of one of the participants under the video, where he says that perhaps some scientific achievements will appear that will change the situation, but here’s the irony that the narcissist himself will invent it.
“I am happy and grateful when narcissists choose 1, which is to be a gift to this world.” I wrote this in numbers, Google translates it poorly.
Josephine and Anna:
There are programs for psychopaths and narcissists to become more aware of their behaviors and improve them. Are they effective? But if they only make them more effective manipulators, remember that’s why we have laws and prisons and Dr. Hare discussed why so many psychopaths line those walls. And occasionally we will take down a mafia head, a political leader or Epstein ( greater). So their ways might find themselves with restraining orders, locked up or dead. Most not all empaths don’t have to worry their heads about such outcomes. So Josephine, you can continue on with life and let the justice system or military handle it. Sometimes the majority rises up historically and overthrows them. Where is Rome today? The pendulum swings. And it starts with the man in the mirror or this story:
A mother sees her daughter throwing clams back into the ocean who are dying on the beach. The mother says “ darling child… you can’t save them all.” The daughter responds, “ yes but I can save this one.”
Now with narcs and psychopaths, leave them on the beach. Not much you can do. But in my personal experience, I would rather do the day to day with a psychopath and much much much less drama and games so long as you are not standing in their way… then give me a narc. Lol
Josephina
You refer to your “Greater narcissist”. Have you had them confirmed as such by Mr Tudor via Narc Detector? If you have been exposed to HG’s work for 4 yrs, you will know that Greaters are rare, and you will gain most advantage from the work here by ensuring the proper School and Cadre as determined by HG.
Hello lovely Josephina, the warning for the explosives was adorable, thank you!! And you posed such interesting questions!!
The questions and thoughts inside me:
– I understand narcissism to be a protective mechanism which developed for protection of the psyche in order for the child to survive amidst the circumstances by which the child was overwhelmed and could not develop control over their life, control over their decisions. So this part then overcompensates by the development of the massive need for the assertion of control. Neurological pathways are formed to leave the emotional empathy out of the picture in order to be able to deal with threats to control and in order to control the circumstances/ other people, appliances, who are threats to their control, threats to their successful functioning, safety perhaps.
As I further understand it: they cannot allow the possibility of others not being a threat to their control. To us it may sound as if they are stuck but they don’t know anything else, how could they if it’s the only way of living they are familiar with and master effectively from their position. To remove that, what would it mean for their psyche?
– Fuel, positive or negative doesn’t matter, they can’t get enough of it? Why? What are your thoughts on it?
– We want to change them but what if we ourselves just change and that’s enough? We learn to deal with our own emotional thinking and we disengage from problematic people. We don’t enter into relationships with them and prevent the genetic predisposition to be passed on to the children.
Why do we need to change them or help them if they don’t want to be helped? Don’t need to be helped, obviously, they manage it all perfectly in their world. Why change them just so we can have it easier? When we want to change them, does it mean that we don’t want to look at the problem of emotional thinking in us, isn’t it so? Why not just change ourselves and that’s it?
– If therapists who are empaths who are under the spell of their own emotional thinking and their empathic traits get corrupted as soon as they meet narcissists and they have not fully grasped what narcissism actually is and how emotional thinking causes excuses, how can they attempt to cure narcissists?
And if therapists who are narcissists/ psychopaths don’t think that narcissism or psychopathy is actually a problem, how can they attempt to cure it? They would be just pretending, correct?
Hi NarcAngel. Thanks for the recommendation. But at the moment I would like to 1) Take an empath detector to understand who I am. 2) Consult with H.G. Tudor on the current situation with narcissists. As for my “main narcissist”, this is not relevant now. It is quite difficult for me to read this site sometimes, because almost every text of H.G. is a trigger for my memories. I react to each article by starting to write comments about what we had. (Sometimes these are pleasant memories, and sometimes just terrible). And it seems as if he is somewhere nearby. Although, thank God, he has not been in my life for a long time and if I do not provoke, i.e. appear in his zone of influence, I do not think that our meeting will ever happen. But as they say, never say never, so I will keep this in mind. Thanks again!
Hi Contagious, thanks for expressing your point, I understand what you mean. But I am a doctor, and in my professional life I have to work with narcissists. Thinking of them as monsters honestly gets in the way of my work.
“A mother sees her daughter throwing clams back into the ocean who are dying on the beach. The mother says “darling child… you can’t save them all.” The daughter responds, “yes but I can save this one.”
Yes, that’s right! 😊
Hi, Jordyguin. Why do I feel like I’m talking to a psychiatrist colleague?))
Are you mirroring me? ))
“To remove that, what would it mean for their psyche?”.
Great question. Yes. Most likely, it’s the supporting structure. Perhaps the realization of the “truth” can destroy.
“Fuel, positive or negative doesn’t matter, they can’t get enough of it? Why? What are your thoughts on it?”
“Fuel” is a metaphor… If translated into ordinary human language, what is it? And I will try to answer this question when I pass the empath detector.
Because if I don’t turn out to be an empath, my answer will mean nothing. Imposter syndrome. What if it turns out that I’m a narcissist who doesn’t realize himself? Either this is true (and then I am a victim narcissist), or I am an empath who is so tired of interacting with narcissists that I am going crazy. I see narcissistic traits in myself, there are quite a lot of them, and they are sometimes pronounced. I was so confused that my whole life flashed before my eyes… Have I ever offended anyone? Yes, like all people. Even if it was not conscious, it happened. Is there anyone who would say that I am a bad person? “No.” Have I ever been the initiator of a conflict and did I like it? Never in my life, I was the initiator, I always try to avoid conflicts, smooth them out. Is the statement true for me: “any attention: no matter positive or negative is important.” No, a negative reaction from another person does not give me anything except pain. But I am far from a saint and not a fairy-tale character. I even took an emotional intelligence test, according to which I have empathy, and I understand other people’s emotions well, but I have problems controlling my emotions. But if H.G. Tudor says that I am a narcissist, I will look at my life from a different perspective.
“Why do we need to change them or help them if they don’t want to be helped? Don’t need to be helped, obviously, they manage it all perfectly in their world. Why change them just so we can have it easier? When we want to change them, does it mean that we don’t want to look at the problem of emotional thinking in us, isn’t it so? Why not just change ourselves and that’s it?”
If we do not go into rhetorical questions and philosophy, then this is what I think. But, what is important here is that I think as an ordinary person, that is, simply a human position. (not a doctor’s). If we proceed from the current state of affairs and accept as true that: “narcissists are not amenable to treatment”, then here is the layout. We cannot change someone else, we can work on ourselves. It is true. Because you are the one who suffers from it. Narcissists really feel vulnerable and, it seems to me, are attracted to people with mental disorders. Therefore, you need to undergo psychotherapy, “treat” as much as possible your mental disorder (although they are all chronic in one way or another), your traumas, work on your personal boundaries, etc. (And of course, read what T.G. Tudor writes – because there is no such invaluable information anywhere. No matter how painful it is for me to read it at times, I believe that he writes everything correctly. And I am very grateful to him for that.) It also makes sense to think about the question, yes, what attracts me to narcissists? It all starts in childhood: ambivalent attachment from parents, where the parent did terrible and wonderful things at the same time. Then you grow up and encounter such behavior and recognize it as the “norm”, because “it’s not as if there’s anything scary about it”, you’re used to it and know how to “survive” in such relationships. Whereas normal healthy harmonious relationships – call forth many internal contradictions.
As a preventive measure, I would see psychotherapeutic interventions in relation to parents who have children. The most valuable gift that parents can give a child is love. And of course, upbringing. A person who has not been subjected to emotional, physical and sexualized violence by their parents and has not been diagnosed with CPTSD – it seems to me has minimal chances of becoming a victim of a narcissist.
“Why not just change ourselves and that’s it?”
It depends on what kind of narcissists (manifestations of narcissism) we are talking about. This is what Contagious wrote about. If you look at it in a global sense….well, it’s clearly not enough for empaths to do something with themselves. Here we need some systems of checks and balances in relation to narcissists too.
And yet, the owner of this thinking suffers from emotional thinking. Others suffer from the actions of a narcissist. (We are now talking specifically about relationships: a narcissist and an empath. So who needs to change?
“We don’t enter into relationships with them and prevent the genetic predisposition to be passed on to the children.”
Regarding children – it is debatable. Narcissistic traits, if they do not prevail over empathic ones, but they are there – this is strength. This topic can be developed very widely, debatable in fact.
Jordyguin
And yes, I really liked this part!!
“I understand that narcissism is a defense mechanism that developed to protect the psyche, so that the child could survive in circumstances that suppressed him and did not allow him to control his life, to make decisions. Therefore, this part is then overcompensated by developing a huge need for confirmation of control. Neural pathways are formed in such a way as to leave emotional empathy out of the equation, in order to be able to cope with threats to control and control circumstances / other people, technology that pose a threat to his control, a threat to his successful functioning, perhaps safety.
As I understand it further: they cannot accept the possibility that others will not pose a threat to their control. It may seem to us that they are stuck, but they do not know anything else, how could they, if this is the only way of life familiar to them, which they effectively master from their position. What will it mean for their psyche to get rid of this? ”
P.S. You write well, it is interesting to read you.
I hope this is not a GPT chat! ))))
Josephina, hi dear! Am I mirroring you? Insignificantly, yes. My background is acting, we mirror sometimes unconsciously and consciously in order to gain a greater insight into others by adopting/empathising/sympathising with other people’s language, worldview, mannerisms, body language etc. and we also mirror in order to make ourselves better understood by the person we wish to be understood by, through their syntax if one can grasp that. And yes some actors can be like those psychiatrists colleagues))))
You have a deep thinker personality and rich emotional output, have you actually considered acting as a hobby? You are quite expressive, honest and fearless in your communication and you have a lot to give – you’re seething inside – standing on a stage may scratch that itch of letting the richness of your emotions (which regularly flood your body and senses) to burst out freely and the audience will thank you. To shine on stage for a wider audience translating emotional understanding can be a further freeing purpose in addition to the quiet of the 1-on-1 of the doctor’s office. A hobby theatre group in your area, that’s an idea perhaps to try out in order to get rid of the accumulated weight of what you have to deal with as a doctor and a highly sensitive individual – you need to find a reasonable ventil and given the good amount of narcissistic traits, high emotionality and expressiveness – acting or performing (singing, dancing, playing) could prove beneficial.
But only after you’ve graduated from Tudor University anyway. Theatre groups do attract narcissists of course but they are indeed best scene partners. Instinctive rapid readers of their scene partner, great at adapting and reacting to the scene partner and awesome improvisators, they believe and become the roles they play and this is hugely advantageous and fulfilling. One should remain professional of course not crossing the boundaries but by learning here about narcissists, professional and hobby actors can learn to gauge that dynamic.
Narcissists actors are openly con artists which is a nice and beneficial coincidence…
“…This topic can be developed very widely, debatable in fact.” — Anytime! You made it your profession to strive to understand human behaviour, the reasoning, the meaning and the effects of it and your insight and thoughts on this topic are extremely valuable. I wish for you to fully absorb and put to the test what HG teaches about and for you to become a further advanced doctor in your field!
Jordyguin Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll think about it.) It’s funny, but I often have actor patients and one patient says: “The acting environment is a completely narcissistic environment. But you understand me, right? We are brothers in misfortune. After all, the medical environment is also a narcissistic environment.” It was funny))
About honesty. Well, what’s the point of being disingenuous? I’m not afraid if my identity is revealed (but what’s the point?), all the points I’ve voiced here can’t be used against me, since all of this has already been reworked a million times. I have nothing to be ashamed of, I don’t see any manifestations of “vulnerability” in this that can be exploited. I see strength in this: despite everything, I continue to move forward. Yes, sometimes it’s difficult, but that happens to everyone, right?
Sometimes I let my emotional thinking take over and write all this… But still, there is a certain point of no return (in real life), when empathy fades into the background and the narcissist turns on… And I’m glad that narcissistic traits are in my “basic settings”, because when things get tough, there is someone to stand up for me.
Having a whole palette of emotional manifestations is great, empathy adds flavor to life. However, when it is difficult for you to control your emotional manifestations, then it really becomes a “problem”. Therefore, as you rightly noted, it is necessary to work on emotional thinking.
If my ex-narcissist read all this, it would not be scary either. That he was important – he knows that now he is not particularly important – I think he also guesses)))) I am not interested in someone who is not interested in me. Will he never bother me again? – great. Will he bother me? – great)) a) Now I have H.G. Tudor b) I hope my ex has matured, somehow settled down, and we can now conduct “small talk” on a new level. He treated me badly, that’s for sure. He was unfair to me, that’s for sure. But I learned my lesson and the moments I need to work on were highlighted, so I’m partly grateful to him. There are always two sides. And it didn’t start with him… Who it started with is also not important. We can’t change our past, but the future is entirely within our control.
I used to worry about how he would be without me, but he’s doing great, thriving, you don’t have to worry about him and can concentrate (which is actually what’s happening now – on yourself). As he once said: “Let the whole world revolve around you” – it makes sense to listen.
The only thing is, the others are narcissists… but here I’ll decide on an individual basis with HG.
Thank you for your warm wishes Jordyguin. And best wishes to you! 😊
Jade I know what you mean – twice now I’ve engaged HG for a particular reason and for some reason both times I was very nervous and tongue-tied (which is NOT my normal bubbly personality)
I greatly appreciate HG’s work – has been instrumental to planning my escape (instead of emotionally reacting)
Thanks Hope. Nice to know I’m not the only one! I think we imagine a narcissistic psychopath from scary films (or is that just me 😅) but actually I feel there’s a lot more narcissists at least in our daily lives than we often think, if not psychopaths too. Most recently in my life i’m pretty sure our vet receptionist is one after interacting with her a few times lol!
I’m so glad he’s helped you too. He’s a marvel. And learning to lower emotional thinking is such an important learning curve. I think its also getting your head around that a narcissist could be helpful to you when we come here in various stages of burnout or crisis for the havoc they can reek in our lives .. it’s a bit of a mind bend that HG then is the one to help so much!
Hi, Have any other commenters developed fibromyalgia or similar chronic pain conditions and have you noticed any relationship of this time narcissistic abuse?
Hi Jade,
I don’t know about commenters here on the blog, but I recall one or two individuals who contributed to HG’s 100K interviews or Successful Escapes series who had similar health issues. Here’s a link from Ella’s interview (she had autoimmune issues):
https://youtu.be/PvgG0K18Rmw?feature=shared
Also, I have an empath friend (confirmed) – whom I met when my son and I were at a women’s shelter post-escape – and she has developed some chronic pain/auto immune health issues. I believe these are in response to narcissistic abuse.
Thanks very much for those links WhoCares – much appreciated.
I’ve watched Ella interview – really validating, thanks again.
You’re welcome Jade. Glad it was helpful for you.
Just to add WC, I really liked what Ella said about the importance of working on ourselves too and recognising our own narcissistic traits but also harnessing them in a logical way. That’s been my experience so far
Jade,
It was a really good interview. Ella was very articulate and honest about her experience. I appreciate where she described the rejection of the label of victim – offered by therapists – in favour of what HG’s work offered her and the recognition (after some healing) that she no longer wanted unhealthy attention for what she had endured.
Yeh, I agree. Being put into the victim role doesn’t help. Especially when they don’t understand what’s happened and have no useful information in terms of moving on.
There’s also an honesty and clarity with HGs work that rings true. I guess I found it about four or five years ago now and dipped in and out since then. I remember the descriptions of narcissists made a lot more sense than the descriptions around the internet of communal, introverted narcissists etc though I think I understand what they’re trying to describe with these labels.
Hi Jade, I have an interesting experience in this regard. I have been in chronic pain since I was very young. When I was with my narcissist, I felt something literally on the level of drug intoxication (euphoria) – and it had a powerful pain-killing effect on me. For the first time in my life in many years, I was in remission (albeit briefly). Plus, he was one of the very few people who not only knew, but constantly listened to me whine (pretended to listen, as we understand) about the disease, about everything I had to go through in connection with it. (I always joked, like, “I can’t tell my loved ones this, because they will worry about me, seeing me suffer. And you don’t care, so I tell you all this.” But in fact, that’s how it is). Plus, since I thought about him most of the time, it was a great distraction for me. I switched to his pain and forgot about mine. It’s a very peculiar experience, but that’s what it is. But as a doctor, I can say that “traumatic experience” no matter whether it is caused by interaction with a narcissist or something else is associated with chronic pain and including autoimmune diseases. There is a lot of literature on this topic.
That’s really interesting Josephina, thanks for sharing. Your description of being with the narcissist and the pain receding reminds me of a few relationships of my own. I’m fortunate that I’ve never had a romantuc relationship with a narcissist (from what I can tell) but did have some unhealthy relationships in my twenties (before I got chronic pain). From my side I can now see my own unhealthiness and codependence with my partner despite red flags and in one particular relationship especially and relying on it to feel good (euphoria), rather than a balanced relationship. When I learnt about limerence recently it clicked that that’s what it was. Apparently ACONs are more susceptible to limerance too which makes sense.
Yes, I’m finding more literature on this too. In my life and online I notice when I speak with people with chronic pain they’ll more often than not, later share about a narcissistic upbringing or relationship too even if I don’t ask those questions myself. I appreciate your feedback as a doctor too on thid. Basically my thinking is that we’re being hurt with contact with a narcissist, and eve if it’s psychically but not physical abuse, our body can’t tell the difference.. it just knows we’re in danger and it’s hurting is a communication to us.
“Basically my thinking is that we’re being hurt with contact with a narcissist, and even if it’s psychically but not physically abused, our body can’t tell the difference.. it just knows we’re in danger and it’s hurting is a communication to us.” You are absolutely right. With mental pain, the same areas of the brain react (are activated) as with physical pain – this is a scientifically proven fact.
But for any disease to develop, a combination of factors is needed. Not all people who have experienced a traumatic experience, no matter whether it was with a narcissist or not, will develop a disease. In psychiatry, and in medicine in general, the stress-diathesis model is accepted. That is, a person inherits a genetic vulnerability (or predisposition) to a disease, and whether it will develop or not depends on what other factors will act (that is, it is always a combination of factors). Unfortunately, I don’t remember, perhaps I have already written this somewhere here. If I’m repeating myself, forgive me. I’ve been here for 4 years, but I only started commenting about a year ago.
Actually, I’m curious. Do illnesses develop in response to narcissistic abuse, or is the narcissist already attracted to someone with a mental disorder or physical illness, and as a result of interacting with the narcissist (stress), this illness simply worsens/manifests itself? This requires full-scale research. There are so many aspects to consider.
What is certain is that when interacting with a narcissist, and in general with any form of toxic interactions, the biochemistry of the brain (temporarily) changes, certain hormonal changes occur. It’s like a psychostimulant, at some point: if at first all your neurotransmitters (mainly dopamine) increase, then exhaustion sets in, hence the “dopamine pit”, “withdrawal”, “depression”.
I find the books by Shahida Arabi very informative in this regard – “Becoming the Narcissist’s Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself”, “Healing the Adult Children of Narcissists” and many others. It’s hard to read, actually, but the consequences of narcissistic abuse, the impact of trauma on the brain and complex PTSD are described very well
There is a lot of evidence in favor of childhood trauma – no matter whether it is related to narcissistic abuse or some other and the subsequent development of various chronic diseases in children. In this regard, the work of Donna Jackson Nakazawa “Childhood Disrupted: How Your Biography Becomes Your Biology, and How You Can Heal” is interesting.
P.S. You wrote that you never had a romantic relationship with a narcissist. I guess I have too))) I was never married to a narcissist, never had sex with him, never kissed him (there was only hugs))))), I was not his “girlfriend”. But for many years, I was the Primary Source (according to H.G. Tudor’s classification) for my one of Greater narcissists (he was very well aware of who he was and everything he did, he did quite consciously…damn genius!).
Hi Josephina,
Yup. It’s good that research is coming out about this. And as you said, it’s also nature as well as nurture. I don’t know if I’m right or not but I think the dance and attraction between sensitive individuals/empaths and narcissists is part of this and maybe additionally the first group is prone to certain illnesses like fatigue, chronic pain etc which are exacerbated by narcissists behaviour. just my thoughts…
Also I sometimes wonder in a spiritual sense about patterns in generations and what we come here to learn. Not in a woo woo (well a little 😁) but definitely not toxic positivity or in a letting anyone off the hook way, but I think in my case say, there’s a learning or balancing of character I need in my life, to stand up for myself more and be more assertive / positively narcissistic at times (which I’m now doing). I then have this family situation where it’s not pleasant but makes me deal with this, trust my own judgment etc even when others don’t see it. I’ve noticed a lot of my empathetic cousins are first born girls of narcissistic mothers. Just a thought about the bigger picture. 🤔
I’ve found Shahid Arabi very useful too and read Donna’s blog. Really good accurate info. 👌
Interesting about you being a primary source for a greater. 😬 I don’t i think I have dealt with a greater that I’m aware at least. I remember learning Boris Johnson is one and thinking they’d be cleverer than that lol (I think I thought they’d not be as clever as HG but clever enough that it would be very hard to see their behaviours). In particular I thought this with his obvious gaslighting and blatantly wriggling out of accountability when he was PM in parliament.
Did you work out your narc was a greater or was it via HG narc detector?
Hi Jade and WhoCares,
I was diagnosed with CPTSD and when really stressed out I get IBS issues. I’ve had shingles in high school, youngest case in PA at the time and I had shingles again late last year. Xx
Thanks Rebecca. I found one comment somewhere on Reddit validating my instincts about cptsd and pain, IBS etc. I’m sure more is going to come out and your story reflects it too. Shingles is horrible isn’t it? Sorry you’ve had it multiple times. I had it for the first time last year too.
Hi Jade,
I read it in a healrh article, that there is a connection between cptsd, autoimmune diseases, IBS and others…to living with narcissistic abuse.
I have a friend who has EDS and her ligaments are weak. She can dislocate a joint just reaching or turning wrong. She also has IBS and depression. I suspect her Dad is a narcissist. He used to beat on her Mother. They’ve been divorced since she was a teenager. He left her Mother for another woman and got out of paying any child support. He had manipulated things that spmehow his Navy boss got involved and he was able to get out of child support. I still don’t know how he did that. He’s very immature and self centered.
Her Mother was abused and traumatized to that point that my friend would have to take care of her younger sister , her mother and herself at times. I’ve known her since I was 8 and we are still Navy kid friends.
Her Dad wasn’t mean to me and wasn’t violent to my friend or her sister. He kept all the hitting to his wife. He abused them emotionally and I feel that’s as bad, if not worse than physical abuse.
I share HG’s videos with her and her sister, in the hope they get their answers and can start healing too.
Shingles is bad, the first time I got it in high school was worse. The time I got it late last year wasn’t as bad. The pain was barely noticeable, but I still had to take a few days off of work because I was contagious. The medicine helped and it was gone within 10 days. The pink marks left take months to fade.
I got shingles last year from stress, dealing with another LMRSnarc at work. I get shingles when my nerves go into hyperdrive from long term stress. Thankfully it doesn’t happen every time I’m really stressed. I don’t think Shingles is the worse I’ve dealt with, it’s more of an interruption of being able to go to work and get things done there. It’s like everything else in life, keep going….the lights around the bend. Xx
What a horrible situation Rebecca. I’m glad you could recommend HGs work. I think immaturity and doing what suits you at the expense of others is so much a part of this type of thing. And then the empaths and normals are left recovering. I agree, there’s links for sure and more is coming out every day.
I had shingles for the first time last year.. also due to workplace stress primarily I think. Like you, I think my stress went into hyperdrive so I’m working on that as well as keeping stress down in relation to fibromyalgia. I’m hoping it will go into remission one day.
Hi Jade,
I take a supplement for cortisol levels which affect stress related problems in your body. Lower cortisol in the body, you lower the damage done to your system. It has helped with my IBS and anxiety levels. You can talk to a doctor about getting a supplement to lower cortisol. They are so many to choose from now. Xx
Thanks Rebecca. That’s interesting, I can see cortisol is part of the issue.
Hi Jade,
Cortisol is what causes all the damage to the physical body and the mind. It raises blood pressure, heart rate, and gives you cravings for sweets. It does a lot of damage to the body. Narc abuse raises cortisol levels. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Yeh, you’re right. Not good. I have to keep working at regulation in relation to sweet foods too though I think there could be a hereditary element mixed in there too..
Hi Jade,
I stay active to help with keeping my body physically healthy. I have an active job too. Cortisol research is on the rise, which is great and high levels are linked to narc abuse. I’m so glad they’re introducing more ways to bring levels down. Xx
I agree. Thanks Rebecca.
Dearest Rebecca,
I’m positive I suffered undiagnosed PTSD most of my life! I can’t eat onion and garlic (I’m fodmap now ).
Narcissistic abuse definitely creates heath issues, apart from the obvious, mental issues.
Dear Bubbles,
I hope you’re healing from your recent loss and your son’s absence from your life. I’m sorry life is sometimes so unrelenting and harsh. Xx
I was diagnosed with PTSD when I was 12 the first time. The second time when I was about 17, another time in my 20’s and the last time, a few years ago, I got the diagnoses of CPTSD. I’ve had it most of my life due to different traumas.
The IBS, like an attached gift set went along for the ride. It wasn’t until the last few years that I saw the link to my mental health issues and physical health issues. It makes sense now, the mind controls the body, so when the mind is sick, so is the body. They are linked afterall. It makes sense to me. When you mentally blame yourself as a child, young adult and an adult, you’re mentally attacking yourself. The mind is attached to the body’s functions, so the mind attacks the body. Bascially I really do attack myself, inside my own body. I see the connection and it’s real, not hocus pocus, real. Xx
Dearest Rebecca,
It was Father’s Day yesterday in Australia, we didn’t hear a peep from our son. Mr Bubbles was hoping, but alas, no…..he was really hurting deep down, as we all were).
Thank you so much for your support and kind words Rebecca.
I’m so sorry to hear of your PTSD diagnosis at 12 years old ?!?!?! You should’ve been a normal kid playing outside with your friends and having nothing but fun. Yes, it’s very real and definitely affects one’s body and mind. Show me a traumatised person with no health issues.
Shingles can be activated from a weakened immune system usually caused from stress. Our dear neighbour contracted shingles numerous times (stress from his mother) and it resulted in him suffering from numbness on his left side, sadly, he went downhill from there.
Anxiety usually results in sleep deprivation and so the vicious cycle continues.
Health is everything. Surround yourself with supportive people and positive environments. Put your own agenda first every time.
Walk away from anything negative and hopefully your body will begin to heal, it won’t happen overnight, but there will be improvements over time. All doctors want to do is prescribe medications…..stuff that! I go “a la natural” now
How do I know this, I’ve experienced a life time full of it!
You can and will conquer this lovely Rebecca
You have our full support
💕
Yup I agree Bubbles.
Dear Jade,
I see a connecting link between autism, OCD, sensitivity, brightness, darkness, stimuli to heat and cold. Include rosacea, aches and pains, overthinking, sleep apnea, comfort foods and alcohol for the dopamine rush and hit. Forgetfulness, yet wanting to research every little thing, crowd fear, craving alone time, emotional lows and highs.
Trying to act tough and bravado, (without thinking you’re turned into a narc yourself) and other times feeling totally worthless. ….as if we’re not seen or heard. Include claustrophobia and fear of heights and always always being on the defence. Phew 😮💨
Trust me, there’s more ! Haha
Bubbles.. 99% of what you wrote is me lol and I agree on what you said for the bits that aren’t me too.. that was a bit spooky!
Dear Bubbles,
You are so kind, thank you! I transferred to another location at work to get away from LMRsnarc boss. I succeeding in escaping him through contacting HR. I followed HG’s advice on the matter.
I’ve been happier and less stressed at work now. Yay! Xx
I’m sorry your son is still hurting you and your husband. Xx He’ll come to regret it one day how he treated you. I hope he wakes up and realizes you are not the toxic person in his life he needs to cut off! He’s confused because he’s in love with a narc, is what I think.
I hope he comes around soon and wlecomes you back into his life. Xx
Meanwhile, take care of yourselves, you and your husband, and do fun things together, enjoy life and push back on your worries in your mind. I know it’s hard, but there’s so much more to life than being in your own head. Xx Live life and put the pain in the trunk for a little while. You’ll feel so much of what you’ve been missing. It’s out there in the breeze, on a sun ray, the splash of the ocean, lake, river….even a spa day….go enjoy the day! Xx
Dear Rebecca,
Good onya and well done for getting transferred. Most “good” people end up leaving a toxic work environment. It makes a huge difference being happy at work.
We try not to constantly stress or worry over our son, we literally have not control over him. There were some fleeting moments of sadness and reflection on Fathers Day, however, we didn’t let it spoil the day.
We “choose” happiness over sadness, as being too sad or unhappy for too long, is also not good for one’s health.
We’re at that age lovely Rebecca, it’s a bonus just to wake up each day haha
Mr Bubbles and I look at each other lovingly, but in actual fact, it’s to make sure we’re still breathing 🤣
Rest assured, we’re enjoying life while we still can. Hope you are too 🥰
Dear Bubbles,
Thank you, I’m so happy at my new work location and it made things a lot brighter!
I’m glad to read you and your husband are enjoying your life and not letting your son get you down. I’m so happy for you! 🥰
I’m enjoying as much in my life as I can. Weekend adventures and all! Xx Life is hard at times, but I still want to get out and see it, experience it! I agree with you 100% Xx
Hi HG, Bubbles, Jade, Contagious, Leigh, WhoCares, and Dani,
I was told, by my marriage counselor I was seeing, that I have some OCD tendencies, but I don’t have OCD. He said, just because I have some symptoms doesn’t mean I have the disorder.
I know I tend to hyperfocus on what is bothering me, what I aim to fix, sooth or, heal in my life. I realize now it’s me trying to make things better, to heal the situation.
The current trigger to my hyperfocus right now is the two most recent killings all over social media right now.
The two deaths are horrible and weigh heavy on my mind, especially the girl…that was deeply upsetting to me, so upsetting that I got into an argument with MLSNarc over her death and the pending trail of her killer.
I think her killer deserves the death penalty and he thinks the killer deserves life in a mental institution and locked down.
I think they’ll release him again, he’s been arrested 14 times before, what’s one more time for him? It makes me angry that he got through the system and was out on the streets to kill this young woman.
It’s like how the narcs at work get sexual harrassment cases against them and they get promoted anyway?! WTF? How?? How?? I don’t understand how they get over, I even asked HR, how?? It makes no sense to me. Killers go free, raptists go free…the system is so fked up! I’m sorry, I got into a big debate with MLSnarc about it all and in the end, I wanted to punch him in the nose!
I walked away, before I reacted to my feelings of wanting to punch him. MLSnarc thinks I’m being too harsh with the killer wanting the death penalty. He argues, the man is mentally ill he doesn’t deserve death! He tells me.
I tell him, that she didn’t deserve to have her throat sliced open after work, on a train either! She didn’t get a choice! Why give him life? Her’s was taken and he took her life! Why should he live, when she can’t?!
He kept coming back with, he’s mentally ill…..I’m sorry, he’s a killer. Period. He killed her, he deserves death.
Ted Bundy was a serial killer, people would argue he was mentally ill. He still killed people. He was executed.
Am I being too harsh, like MLSNarc tells me? Am I wrong in feeling this way? I got so upset that I had to walk out of the room and now I’m left with doubting myself again. Am I being too harsh? I feel so upset, angry, disgusted, sad, frustrated …..this poor young woman, she was getting off work, trying to be safe in this country, away from the war of her own country and she gets slain, for nothing! It’s not right! It’s so not right! Xx
I understand how you feel, Rebecca. It’s been quite a lot of murder being reported recently, and so much caught on camera.
Thank you, Dani for understanding how I feel.xx
I’m staying lowkey this weekend and I’m avoiding looking at anymore videos on the killings online. It’s much too upsetting right now. Thanks for your understanding.
Seeing Kirk’s video pics reminds me too much of the JFK asassination videos that we were made to watch during History class in high school. I found them upsetting to watch too. It makes me want to withdrawal from people, it seems some are getting more violent and less using their minds for thinking before they act. It’s unstable and unsafe. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I couldn’t watch it. It was so upsetting just reading about what happened to that poor young woman. The videos I saw stopped right before it happened.
I don’t think you’re being harsh. It was a cold blooded attack and she didn’t even have a chance to defend herself. Why should he?
Its unfortunate, but I don’t think this man will pass a competency hearing so he may not even be able to stand trial. Contagious would probably know better though.
What I actually see happening is that your narc husband is using this as a way to get fuel from you. He’s disagreeing with you so you’ll lash out at him. I understand your need to talk about these things so you can try to make some sense of it. Is there anyone else you can talk to about it because your husband’s goal is to get you more upset with him. He needs the fuel flowing towards him, not Iryna’s murderer.
Hi Leigh,
I don’t know why I did, but I watched the video of Iryna being killed. It happened so fast and I couldn’t understand why no one got up to help her! ???? I watched and I got so angry and I cried. I cried because it was horrible, no one helped her until it was too late….her whole life gone…
I agree with you, discussing it with MLSN isn’t going to help me release my feelings and the few close friends I have I don’t want to burden them with my emotional problems…I didn’t call them, I didn’t want to be a debbie downer, but maybe I need to….I don’t understand how they just sat there and didn’t help her, comfort her, call 911, something…instead help came when most of her blood was gone….xx
Hi Contagious and Leigh,
Do you think Brown will be competent to stand trail, or do you think he’ll be judged not fit for trail? Or, is it too early to know because his mental state is questionable?
I’m sorry for any upset feelings my comments have caused anyone here. I feel safe here and understood here the most. Xx
I’m sorry HG for being so upset about it all. Xx
Hi Leigh and Dani,
I went out to see a movie, one I was looking forward to seeing. I had to get my mind off of things.
It was a great movie and it was THE CONJURING LAST RITES. I know, horror movie? Yeah, horror movies distract me fromlife’s issues and concerns.
Lorraine Warren really loved her daughter and it was comforting to see her love for her daughter played out in the movie. I think Lorraine was a Contagion and Carrier empath, at least the two being in her empath make up. Vera did a excellent job bring her character across in the movie.
Of all places, I found comfort in the love shown in a horror movie. It gave me hope for humanity. Horror movie and hope. Odd, isn’t it? Xx
Killing of Iryna was absolutely horrific. I watched a video, how she slided to the floor, bleeding and no one came to rescue her immediately. I felt sick. WTF is wrong with people. Such indifference. Maybe they were shocked, Idk. Only one guy came and tried to help a few minutes later, but too late. Poor girl. I saw her pictures, she was such a beautiful woman, and so young. Heartbreaking really.
I usually watch when I sit on public transportation, who is behind me, cause I had some unpleasant situations in the past. To me he looked suspicious, I wouldn’t sit in front of him. And I recall, I once travelled on subway in NYC from Manhattan to Brooklyn (daytime) and I felt totally unsafe there. So many weirdos, Idk, if they were under influence or just nuts. It was the only time, and it was enough. Better to stuck in traffic inside the taxi.
Rebecca,
I’m glad you found something to calm yourself. I gravitate toward familiar movies or TV when I want that distraction.
Too much high profile murder and death. Too many people being taken advantage of. Too much “virtue signaling” in the pursuit of “virtue praise” absent the action necessary to earn it.
Rebecca,
I am upset by all the murders and death and cheering and jeering. I am upset by the media portrayals and misleading statements. I’m still shocked by Kirk’s death, though not really surprised…and I inadvertently encountered the video of the bullet hitting him. It’s horrific, and his wife and children were present as I understand. I have a heavy feeling in my heart for the students in the organization that invited him to that campus. I can’t imagine that potential guilt and distress they might be enduring now and into the future.
I am not upset by you needing to talk about it. I have not seen a post from you to anyone on Narcsite where I found your behavior objectionable. You have habitually been a warm and kind presence. It’s understandable to be confused and distressed in these times. And Narcsite is a safe place for these observations… Mr. Tudor takes care of that part.
Hi Rebecca & Arya,
Rebrcca,
Did you see my conversation with TS on the Psychopath Defends thread? TS and her daughter are horror movie buffs too!
I’m not sure what will happen to Iryna’s murderer. The whole situation is incredibly upsetting.
Arya,
I’m a New Yorker! I live in the suburbs of NYC. My daughter takes mass transit to work into the city. For someone who doesn’t see the craziness all the time, it can be a bit upsetting and disturbing. We’re desensitized to it though I’ve been taking them on the train since they were babies. Although I will say, it was safer and cleaner back then.
Hi Rebecca,
Your comments aren’t upsetting at all. I missed your original comment when you said that. My empath daughter has needed to talk about these murders as well. She accidentally saw the video too and its been a bit traumatizing for her as well.
I agree with Dani. You’re a warm and kind presence. This is an incredibly upsetting time right now and I understand your need to share.
Hi Dani, Leigh, and Arya,
There wasn’t a reply tab by each of your comments, so I wanted to reply to all here. I hope my reply reaches you all. Xx
Dani,
Thank you for your kind words of understanding and support. I want to explain why I felt guilty after making my comments. Why I felt the need to apologize for ccmmenting on upsetting killings.
I was worried my comments might be too much for another reader to take it, that my discussion about the graphic video I saw might hurt someone reading it. I also felt guilty for “dumping my emotional release” here.
But, your reply, Dani made me understand and feel that my comments and feelings are welcomed here and understood here. Thank you for that reminder, truly thank you. Xx
Leigh and Arya,
I’ve been to NYC 4 times and I rode the subway a bunch of times too. I was with a few friends each time, so I felt a little more comfortable than I would have by myself. I get nervous and on edge, when I travel on public transportation by myself. I don’t really like it much even with friends. I’m on high alert even around town, going to the store, going to work….I’m aware of my surroundings, prepared for the worse, hoping for the best.
I read the comments about Iryna’s killing and Kirk’s killing and I wanted to understand why it happened, why no one helped?? So, I realize that’s why I watched the graphic videos because I had to know, I had to dig….and it was upsetting…I cried and got upset and I didn’t like the answers I got back…whether they bystanders where shocked or not, the truth is they did nothing to help her and she was let down, not once, but twice. Once by the system for setting him free so many times and another time for letting her bleed to death while they watched.
I want a better system that doesn’t allow repeat, violent criminals to keep getting released, over and over….again…14 times!! WTF?! The system failed her and she could have been your daughter, your sister, your friend…I imagine how her family feels, her coworkers, her friends….and I hope her killer doesn’t enjoy the rest of his life because her life is gone.
Dani,
I also like criminal documentaries to watch, to calm me down and distract me. I enjoy the figuring out the puzzle part and having my mind focus on something else for a bit. I do hyperfocus on things I have a puzzle to figure out with. My mind likes puzzles and I can’t stand to be bored. I think we have that in common….and you too, Arya. We like puzzles to figure out. Xx
Thanks for you being here and I’m so grateful to you all and HG! Xx
I especially appreciate how you all, especially HG, make this such a safe place to learn and express ourselves. This is truly a special haven. Thank you. Xx
Hi Rebecca: The defense of mental illness in USA for a killing typically falls under what’s known as the “insanity defense.” This legal rule is called the “M’Naghten Rule.” It states that a defendant may be excused from liability if, at the time of the crime, they had a severe mental disorder that prevented them from understanding the nature of their act was right or wrong.
It’s a job. Take the case of young man from Colorado James Holmes who appeared like the Joker and shot up a group at he Theatre watching Dark Knight Rises. He was found guilty as he plotted what he was going to do, bought guns. He was convicted of 24 counts of first degree murder despite being diagnosed with various mental health disorders including schizophrenia. IF you catch a killer, he is not getting set free, no matter what. What’s sad is the death penalty is seen as a deterrent but it’s ts just a waste of a lot of time tax money in my opinion. Costs like a million due to all the appeals.
About the only thing life in prison or the death penalty does is remove that person from society which is a good thing.
If you ask me, more could be done with early intervention. Or treating mental illness but most governments don’t put their money there.
Rebecca:
Well bet he will stand trial. As I stated the insanity defense is a joke. High profile cases trigger politics. He will be tried and convicted.
Thanks for sharing Rebecca.
Stress really does wreak havoc on the immune system, doesn’t it? I have never had shingles but I understand it’s very unpleasant.
Similar to you, my RL empath friend was diagnosed with CPTSD – also, she has quite strong Geyser qualities. Sometimes I wonder if an individual’s particular constitution make them more susceptible to certain things. I had to look up the name of what else she was diagnosed with, and it’s: cold allodynia. But she is also awaiting testing for further autoimmune issues.
Hi WhoCares,
Yes, narc abuse does cause health issues, especially mental health issues. I have strong Geyser emotions. I have difficulty in cobtrolling them at times of stress. If I’m upset about something and talk about it with a friend, I can be fighting the urge to cry, but my tears will still come down my cheeks and I get annoyed with myself because I’m fighting the hurt feeling and it’s still coming through. I feel like a narc at times for that lack of control and I think I look stupid trying to talk about an upsetting incident and my tears are making my nose run. I get annoyed and embarrassed, but mostly annoyed. It’s hard to concentrate one getting my words out when my emotions are beating on my mental door. It’s frustrating and I wish I had better control on them during high stress times. It’s part of me and I’m trying to work on accepting me more. Xx
Rebecca,
Regarding strong Geyser emotions and tears…thanks for sharing that and I am sorry that you find that aspect of yourself somewhat of a drawback.
You made me think about the same empath friend I was speaking of earlier. I attended several of her court dates with her (family court trial) and when watching her on the stand, it was plain on her face – when she was fighting back tears – she would manage, mostly, to keep the tears at bay but her eyes would still turn red, etc. and reveal her feelings. Since I know her pretty well, and therefore, have insight into which topics are triggering for her – I could even pick up the pause in her speech and catch in her voice when she was answering certain questions from the lawyers – and I knew just how close to the surface the tears were. She did really well in court but would let loose afterwards, outside the courthouse or on the way home. All that to say – that I recognize what a struggle it can be to rein in a Geyser’s emotions.
I don’t think you should be hard on yourself and I applaud you working towards self-acceptance. But, also, each type of empath really does have strengths and weaknesses.
I didn’t have any Geyser show up on my Trait Detector and I can hold back emotions well enough, but sometimes this itself can be a drawback. Specifically, at times in listening to my son tell me about an upsetting interaction at school – I, occasionally, am so absorbed in listening and working out the motives of the players involved (being the truth-seeker and problem-solver that I am) that I fail to have a supportive and observable emotional response to my son’s story, when he is looking strictly for emotional support in the moment and not necessarily a solution. So, there’s that.
Geyser empaths are the best – in the way that they will share their genuine emotional response with others when it’s needed to either support or commiserate.
In follow up to my reply to you on Geyser emotions …
Rebecca – Geyser empaths also have the consequence of causing me to talk more than I usually do!
This is interesting (and humorous HG 😁).
I definitely think my constitution is sensitive and I identify with some of the Geyser comments too. So I don’t think it’s all about environmental influences (or my fault for being that way I realise how). Just seeing the interaction of the things.
Interesting about the cold allodynia WhoCares. I wonder if it’s related to Reynauds syndrome.
Thanks for explaining more about Geyser empaths WhoCares.. a lot of what you said resonated.
Jade,
No problem. I think others here, with Geyser in their empathic make up, could speak with more authority on that trait.
However, I do think I am surrounded by individuals with Geyser qualities – I believe even my son; he wears his heart on his sleeve.
Thanks WhoCares. I identify with some of it but wouldn’t say I wear my heart on my sleeve like your son. I don’t know if it was a learned protective behaviour but I think I also hide my feelings quite well.. a bit of a contradiction. I well up easily about other people’s issues and animals and can feel emotion quite easily and I think make people feel understood and cared for, but also have a bit of a poker face especially about feeling hurt myself.
Hi Rebecca,
I try to look at my Geyser as a release. Its the one aspect of my makeup that’s for me. My carrier is to carry others, my savior is to save others. My geyser, in part, is for me. I feel the emotion and then release it. I feel excited, I giggle. I feel happiness or joy, I smile. I feel anger, I hiss. I feel humorous, I laugh. I feel sadness or hurt, I cry. Sometimes the geyser is a driver for me to act too. But the release is for me.
Hi Leigh,
Thanks for describing how your Geyser works for you and I’m glad you embrace your Geyser part. Xx
I have an issue with my Geyser at times because when I’m having a not -now-moment with my emotions, my Geyser seems to pop up anyway and makes things worse to deal with, like I’m trying to discuss something important and my tears want to come down and I’m battling my emotions why I’m trying to communicate. I even tear up when I’m really angry, which is really distracting when I’m trying to make my point. My emotions, to me, can be a setback to communication and I feel I look ridiculous with tears running down my face and trying to talk with some composure. It doesn’t work too deal.
Other times I enjoy my Geyser emotions, I experience so many good emotions at once too. The happiness I feel for a friend getting married, having a baby, their kid graduating from college, their baby’s first steps etc…happiness, excitement, encouragement for the future, pride in their achievements etc…it’s wonderful to feel the happiness in my chest and feel it warm me…that I enjoy! That is the great part of having Geyser! That I gladly embrace, but you can’t have the light, without the dark.
The strongest dark emotion I know is Grief and Grief is the price we(those who love) all pay for loving someone.
That’s the part I understand HG the most, because I can understand when HG said, I do not desire to love, I work perfectly fine the way I am…..I get it, why love when it hurts you in the end? I understand HG’s point of view and logical thinking 100%.
Those of us who can love, no offense HG, understand it hurts, but it makes life better, gives more purpose, more warmth, more laughs and when you have love everything else is more bearable, not so dark. It makes life worth living and it’s all worth the pain and sorrow when death takes love away, because you had love, you felt love, you tasted love, breathed love and love leaves a mark that doesn’t leave you cold at night. It’s worth every tear. Xx
Jade,
“Interesting about the cold allodynia WhoCares. I wonder if it’s related to Reynauds syndrome.”
I stand corrected. It is Reynauds syndrome that my friend was diagnosed with. (We hung out this past weekend after not seeing each other for quite some time and I got clarification.) My brain mixed up the list of things that she had mentioned when consulting Dr. Google vs. the actual professional medical diagnosis – although, further investigations are in the works.
That’s interesting WhoCares. Hopefully your friend will get to the bottom of it.
Hi WhoCares and Jade,
I’ve been told many times by other people that I wear my heart on my sleeve. When I get angry, hurt etc, I voice it. I’ll fight to hold it in, but as soon as I’m around a friend or someone I trust, I tell them my feelings about what upset me.
It’s like it burns inside me until I let it out in words and it does flow out. I definitely can see and experience my Geyser half every day and it doesn’t like to stay under wraps….it’s more like a horse with the gate open….there it goes again…running all down the field.
WhoCares,
You mentioned in a previous comment that you expressed sadness in my embarrassment over my Geyser half.
I understand why you would feel sad for my negative view of my Geyser. I wanted to explain why I feel this way.
Throughout my childhood, young adulthood and even currently as a fully responsible adult, I was made to feel my feelings were too much, that I need to calm down and stop feeling so much. The comments made me feel inferior and stupid, like I had less control of myself because of my emotions. I’ve been called silly headed, overly emotional and “are you on your period? ” comments that made me feel shame and guilty for having my emotions get away from me.
I have too much emotions, I’m getting too emotional….heard it all, often enough that it made me feel ashamed of my feelings. It didn’t help that my mother critisized my emotions too.
I express my feelings with as much control as I can muster. I’m not always successful and I especially get emotional when it comes to loved ones. It’s why I wanted to die, when my Dad died. It sounds dramatic, but that is how I felt about losing him.
I felt the same grief when I lost LMRSNarc from work. He meant a lot to me and I fell in love with his facade and who I thought he was as a person.
I had suicidal thoughts and was in a lpt of pain, when I found HG’s work. HG’s work and consulting with HG saved my life. I’m very grateful that I didn’t go through with my plan. I’m very grateful I get to know all of you here. Xx
Hi Rebecca!
I’m so glad you found Mr. Tudor when you did and you didn’t go ahead with your plan! I’m incredibly grateful for you!
You keep wearing your emotions on your sleeve! Who cares what anyone else thinks! You’re passionate and that’s ok!
I hope you notice all my exclamation points! Its my Geyser coming out now too! You’re an absolutely wonderful human being!
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for writing that to me. ☺️ I think you’re wonderful too!
I like how you don’t shy away from speaking your mind! I admire how you’re not hesitant to tell someone off, when they’re being rude. I tend to bite my tongue until I can’t anymore. It builds in me slowly and then I fight myself over if I should or shouldn’t…my self doubt is annoying to me, HG says, it’s the curse of being an empath….self doubting yourself and your actions. It’s still soooo annoying to me!
I honestly felt bad and wondered about myself because I got so upset about Iryna’s killing, that I wanted the death penalty for her killer. I thought, what kind of a person wants the killer to be executed? And then, I thought how else will we know he won’t kill again? He gets sent to life in prison and he can still kill someone in prison. A guard, a prison mate, or what if he escapes? He can kill again then too! Prison, mental institution isn’t going to stop him from being dangerous, but execution would. That’s my argument and it’s what I would tell the jury and the judge, if Iryna was my family member and I had the chance to plead for the death penalty. Does that make me a bad person? I wondered about myself here. Xx
Hi Rebecca (and Leigh!)
I had to add my own message to Leigh’s lovely message (my geyser comes out in emojis 😄) .. so glad you’re here, learning from HG, healing and that you didn’t go through with your plan too. ❤️🩹 I have felt very welcomed and you’ve been a big part of that. Hugs.. you’re doing the work, you’re moving forward and I’m proud of you. 💪♥️
I identify so much with what you shared Rebecca about doubting and finding it hard to stand up for yourself. Weirdly as I’m approaching 50, I seem to have recently developed the skill of saying what I need to say. ✊ It just pops out mostly!
I’m not aggressive but it comes out of my mouth now whereas before I’d hold it all in, doubt myself and then feel annoyed with myself that I didn’t stand up for myself (I think this has been part of developing chronic pain and fatigue).
Seeing empaths here being assertive is helping too! I’m getting in touch with my “super” side lol🦸♀️
Thanks Jade for your words of encouragement and kindness. Xx I’m glad I’ve helped you feel welcomed here. You are welcomed here and I appreciate the difference you make here. BIG HUG back to you! Xx Now we are making HG go, ewwww…😄 (Sorry, HG! Xx)
I’m glad to be here too. Xx
Rebecca,
“I was made to feel my feelings were too much, that I need to calm down and stop feeling so much.”
I am sorry to hear how much your emotionality caused you difficulties as a child. Leave it to narcs to make you feel that you’re the problem or there is something wrong with you. But you are lightyears ahead now of those who would try to make you feel bad for being yourself. You have immense self-insight and awareness, and that’s a huge advantage.
“”I’m very grateful that I didn’t go through with my plan. I’m very grateful I get to know all of you here. Xx”
I am glad you didn’t follow through on your plans – you are such a bright light here and I am happy to know you.
Jade,
“That’s interesting WhoCares. Hopefully your friend will get to the bottom of it.”
Well, I think at the heart of all my friend’s health issues is the fact that she continues to be subjected to narcissistic abuse.
Hi Rebecca,
Yes, I do speak my mind and I enjoy calling people out on questionable behaviors. LOL! That made me chuckle when I read it, lol! Its definitely my justice trait at work. I think there’s some pride in there too though.
I can have self doubt too. Not about what I’ve said though. I don’t doubt or ruminate about the things I’ve already said or done. My ruminating & self doubt happens before I say anything. I can sometimes think that I don’t have anything to offer or that I’m not good enough.
As for the death penalty, I’m opposed to it. But its not because of the murderer. I don’t care what happens to them. I can totally understand why you want justice for the victims. You’re not wrong for wanting them to pay. Many people are for the death penalty. I’m just a bit of a weirdo. I struggle with the death penalty because of the prison officer who carries out the execution. Does he now have blood on his hands? What about the prosecutor who seeks out the death penalty, or the 12 jurors or the judge who imposes a death sentence? Do they have blood on their hands? I don’t why but its something I’ve grappled with for a long time.
Now, if an “accident” should happen while they’re in prison by another inmate, so be it.
HI Rebecca,
Haha. Soz HG.
Seriously though too, the power of proper narcissistic education is not to be underestimated in saving lives. ✊ Thank you HG.
Thank you, WhoCares xx Finding HG’s work and all here, has made a difference in my life and in me. Xx
My Stepson came to visit the other week, he has a twin sister (MLSNarc sister from NDC results) and he told me, he can see the difference in me. He said, my eyes were more aware of who I was and I’m acknowledging my abuse I went through and no longer ignoring the pain. I was surprised he said that and that he noticed the change that quickly. It was an encouraging thing to hear from him. It made me feel a sense of pride for the work I did on myself showing that much. It was a good feeling. Xx
I don’t know where he lies within the catagories of people, but I’m learning toward Empath with Super and some CoD. It would explain how he was willing to lie and all for his girlfriend…and how he stands up against people who tell him he believes in the wrong religion, or his opinion is wrong. He debates with his Uncle about religion and even enjoys provoking him. The provocation I wonder about, it’s why I wonder if he’s not narcissitic sometimes. He is passive aggressive with his Uncle and he has an open relationship with his girlfriend. There’s a lot about him that can go from being narcissistic to being empathic….he may even be Normal? He has complex behaviors and isn’t as easy to figure out as his twin sister. I’ll have to do the NDC on him, especially since he is still in my life.
Thank you for your kind words and support. You made a difference for me here and I’m glad you’re here too. Xx
Hi Jade,
I’m glad you can relate to my self doubt and biting my tongue…like you, I’m learning to speak up more and stand up for myself more. It’s so much easier for me to stand up for others, but I wouldn’t for me, for the longest time.
I don’t have Super 😄, so it’s not Super coming out more for me. I think it’s a bit of Geyser and Savior with me. Maybe the Geyser pushing the Savior to act on my behalf?
Before it used to take more pushing for me to stand up for myself. I’m more aware now that I should speak up more, instead of ignoring my hurt feelings to avoid causing problems.
The whole situation with my old narc boss, was a prime example of me standing up for myself and now, I’m in a better work environment and a better, nicer boss. I’m glad I listened to HG’s advice and stood up for myself and took the steps to leave the work environment I was in and the narc boss. Xx
Thank you, HG! Xx
I think we’re quite similar Rebecca. I remember when I was younger wondering why I didn’t seem to have a self protective mechanism when people were being nasty, even covertly. I realise it was also groomed out of me but I also think I’m less super from comments I’ve read here. I always worried about hurting others even though they were hurting me.
I don’t know if it’s menopause/self development or a combo but I’m noticing I’m saying what I need to say without even thinking about it now, in my quiet unassuming way on the whole but it’s working.
So glad HG helped with your ex boss, and that you took that advice and made it happen. ✊✊✊
Ps I found an interesting YT vid today re empaths growth post abuse and Jung, I’ll post it later if HG is happy to, it seems to link with a lot of what we’re all discussing here and HGs take on things too.
Hi Jade,
Yes, I think we are very similiar in empath make up. Xx Have you done the Empath Detector? I’m sorry, if you already answered that question before. Xx
I’m going to talk to my stepson about him doing the Empath Detector and possibly a consultation with HG. It’ll be interesting to get the opinions about his family from his view. Xx
Dear HG,
I’ll have to discuss it farther with you. Xx
Hi Rebecca, I haven’t done the EDC. I’ve been guessing based on discussions here… I think I’m naturally low on super but reading your other comment about Jung and the shadow work, is what I’m thinking is happening with me too. A change where I’m responding so differently.
It’s very cool your stepson picked up on the changes in you! That’s validation. 😁 Interesting to hear his results in time if you share.
Hi Jade,
If it’s ok with HG, I will touch on the outcome, but not go into it entirely. Xx
I found the EDC most hopeful for me in realizing some things about myself. I think it would help you too. Xx
Whatever works best with HG, Rebecca. the EDC sounds so helpful and I may do it one day (it’s hard to go into it here) but I have every faith that’s it’s extremely useful. I can see that in all the discussions. I can guess at some of my make up but imagine there’d maybe be some surprises too.
Hi Jade,
The EDC was hopeful and so was the Trait Detector and the Weaponized Empath Detector. They all helped in learning about myself. I had a big issue with self doubt clouding my view of myself, all the conditioning from my mother had me seeing myself as the guilty one, the bad kid.
The results of the Weaponized Empath Detector was very validating to me because I could finally see myself in the results and my purpose. Xx
I still fight with self doubt, I don’t think that will ever fully go away. Xx
Thanks for sharing the various consultations, Rebecca. That’s so useful and validating. I think I’ve kind of gone through what you described in my own way. There was something that happened when I “realised” with my mum, that switched my thinking. Like you, I’d spent my life thinking there was something wrong with me. My mum wasn’t so obvious to say it, but I think the nature of having a narcissist parent, is that you question, doubt and know there’s something you can’t put your finger on.
I’m so glad you’ve come through that. I have compassion for my mum, but I’m learning to put her stuff back at her door now. Not from meanness but just basic logic. I think we’ll be dealing with this stuff always to some degree as ACONs, and I think empaths are doubters by nature but “we know” now which is a huge step.
Hi Jade,
I’m glad I have a clearer view of myself, less s@#% smeared on the mirror I’m looking at, but I fight with cleaning the mirror. My own mind and self doubts keep smearing me. The curse of the empath, HG has said to me and on videos.
I fight self doubt with logical thinking, as HG has taught us, but sometimes my logical thinking isn’t as strong as my emotional thinking, and I find that really hindering and annoying. Xx
I know that you mean Rebecca. I’ve been working on my self esteem the last few years too (I don’t think I had any really!). I try and be my own cheerleader especially important with my mum as she tries to destabilise me and I realised likes me anxious and doubting. I’m getting better, like for you, it takes practice though.
I get the impressions that it’s tricky for empaths anyway even without N abuse in the mix. 🥴
Hi WhoCares ,
If you don’t mind me asking you and sorry to sound stupid, but what is RL empath friend? Not sure what RL is? Xx
I’m sorry your friend is having health issues, but what is this cold……. you mentioned? Again, sorry if you don’t want to go into it. I understand if you don’t feel comfortable. Xx
Real Life, I’d suggest.
Or fashionable as Ralph Lauren.
Thanks HG! 😄xx Ralph Lauren! 😄😄 I needed that laugh! You’re very funny! And thanks for the answer, I should have known that one. 🙄🙃🫣😄xx❤️❤️
Haha! Thanks for coming to the rescue HG – with both humour and insight.
Rebecca,
I always feel weird when I write “my empath friend…” because you know; many here are empaths and I consider many here as a ‘friend’ – (you among them) despite being an online interaction. And so, the last time I felt the need to deferentiate that statement with ‘RL’.
To answer your other question Rebecca – it is called ‘cold allodynia’ – or at least this was the closest diagnosis one doctor gave her. She started experiencing weird chronic pain that was, historically, new to her. It was in strange places on her body – her feet, her elbow…and sometimes accompanied by noticeable swelling but it was not actually related to a physical cause or joint issues.
It turns out that the sensation of coldness from surfaces and her surroundings was involved. For example, in the fall and winter, she now has to wear really thick socks and warm slippers in her own home – this has resolved most of the foot pain. But if she goes about with just normal socks on the cold from the floor causes her feet pain and isolated swelling. I have seen the swelling on the bottom of her feet (she wasn’t aware of it herself at the time.) Alternatively, she has to go lay in bed (sometimes) under her duvet, with really warm pj’s to warm up her whole body – she isn’t one to rely on pain meds.
Hi WhoCares,
I should have figured out what RL meant. How embarrassing. 🫣☺️xx
Your friend sounds like my Navy friend I’ve known since I was 8. She has similar issues and was diagnosed with EDS, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and she has chronic fatigue syndrome too. Her Dad is a narc. I mentioned her in previous comments to Jade. It’s hard to get diagnosed with it because so many doctors don’t understand all the symptoms and it gets misdiagnosed or missed altogether. She went through many of doctors before it was discovered. Perhaps your friend needs to look into it? There are 4 different varities of it too. Not all have the same issues and symptoms.
Some doctors thought she was depressed and had chronic fatigue syndrome. She adjusted her diet to help with symptoms and is on disability because half the time she’s in a wheelchair. She’s a very kind person and a dear close friend of mine. We are life long friends. Her mother was my godmother growing up. My brother stayed with them, when my Dad couldn’t even look at him without wanting to strangle him. Her family and my family were Navy families. I worry about her health and hope to visit her before the end of the year. Xx
Thanks for your answers WhoCares and thanks for sharing. Xx
WhoCares,
I meant to add that I understand what you mean about feeling weird about calling us empath friends and RL empath friends….I see you as a friend too, even though we haven’t met. Xx
Maybe some day HG will do a meet and greet with all of us and we all can meet. Only HG could handle the chaos that might come up from that. 😄xx
Rebecca says, “Maybe some day HG will do a meet and greet with all of us and we all can meet. Only HG could handle the chaos that might come up from that. 😄xx”
That would be awesome! Sign me up, please!
I’ve worked with a few people with EDS Rebecca. I don’t know if it’s true but one of them said it’s diagnosable in the US but not in the UK where its called something else but also means it’s harder to get treatment in the UK. It is often comorbid with fibromyalgia.
Additional info. Autistic people are often diagnosed with EDS which I think is quite interesting. I also have noticed a lot of overlap with sensitive people (Elaine Aron), autism and chronic pain and fatigue. It seems related to overstimulation and being sensitive and tuned into the environment.
Hi Jade,
My EDS friend(weird calling her that) but, her sons have autism. You might be right about the connection. I’ve been called overly sensitive and my best friend thinks my CPTSD is really ADHD. The two have similiar symptoms, but are usually caused from other factors. I wonder if they aren’t the same….more research needs to be done. Xx
WhoCares and Jade,
My EDS friend is ivisiting Scotland right now and is enjoying the breaded food there that she can’t eat here in the US. It’s funny how she can eat glutton there, but not here. She doesn’t understand it either. Xx
I can’t find it now Rebecca but I had a good venn diagram of the overlaps and differences of autism, ADHD and sensitivity which is very interesting. If I find it I’ll let you know where to find it, it might help. I used to think I had ADHD but think more likely mild cptsd I think in my case. There’s so many similarities but I think you know the whole picture better than anyone else. Also I believe there are studies already about the links between EDS and autism. IBS is often another comorbidity I believe.
Also french flour is better for people with intolerances than UK flour because the process is less engineered.. it might be something like this with Scottish vs US 🤔
I have information on a wide variety of weird topics lol 😆
Dear Rebecca,
I’m familiar with Raynauds, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis , chronic fatigue syndrome, IBS, ADHD, I believe they are all linked. Not me personally, but a family member. Stress causes so many of these symptoms unfortunately.
Cold allodynia, interesting 🤔
Hi Bubbles,
I agree with all the links between the health conditions you mentioned and N abuse.
I developed chronic pain and fatigue around the time I “realised” properly about my family (plus the pandemic happening), I think there was too much for my brain to handle. I also think the physical and mental sensitivity was there before in my temperament (so more susceptible to N stuff?). I always had low energy, blood sugar issues, fainting, Reynard’s etc. I would also pick up on a lot of other people’s emotional stuff (and find it hard to work out what was mine and what was their’s). I usually blamed myself for other people’s bad / narcissistic behaviour towards me and not being good enough “before I knew”. I think it all was a perfect storm…
Hi Jade,
Thank you about my brother and I appreciate your kindeness. Xx
I read articles on ADHD and CPTSD and how they overlap and have similiar symptoms and behaviors. Autism I know about too, because I read articles about it and my stepson has it.
My brother was diagnosed with ADHD when he was a kid. I got tested and it wasn’t found. I think my CPTSD looks like ADHD.
I find it interesting that my psychopath brother was diagnosed ADHD because he talked a lot and wouldn’t sit still for long. That wasn’t ADHD, that was his psychopathy fighting boredom. He was put on medicine he didn’t even need.
The medical field has more work to do, to catch up to what HG knows about psychopathy and the behaviors. They need HG’s help to learn more about narcissism too. Xx
HG, have you thought about writing books for the medical field? Or, have you already done that? Xx
❤️ my pleasure Rebecca.
It’s interesting how these different diagnosis’ show up and sometimes interact if they arise together. I often see ADHD and autism together (and OCD) in people I work with and see how they affect each other.
It’s also interesting how psychopathy showed up as ADHD in your brother too! But yeh, it’s scary when people are given meds they don’t need. I agree re HG. I think the medical / psychiatric field is good in some regards but the internet and particularly high quality information such as that which HG provides is taking over traditional information so they do need to catch up!
I hope my comment comes out in the right place… The thread seems a bit glitchy.
Dear Jade,
It’s a vicious trap and cycle, isn’t it ?
Are you taking any vit D, magnesium, probiotics or hydralytes ? I’ve found them extremely beneficial. I also consulted with a nutritionist, she had me tweak a couple of things after reviewing my blood results and I’m the best I’ve ever been.
I always thought I was never good enough, however, I surround myself with those who think I am good enough. I too, feel others energy and it’s so draining and exhausting. Hmmmm, maybe that’s why I really enjoy alone time haha
It’s never too late to experiment what’s best for your own individual requirements. If at first you don’t succeed, keep trying.
Ps I stopped buying bread and make my own! At least I know what’s in it hehe
Xx
Dear Bubbles,
Thanks for your reply.
I take vit d and b12. I’m on SNRIs for chronic pain and fatigue now and also HRT. I’ve always tried to go “natural” but these have been life savers for me. I eat a very good diet, gently exercise and try and enjoy life and keep stress down, which can be just as important, I’ve realised.
I’m the same re alone time! I’ve never really allowed myself as much as I need (99% lol!) but now I’m getting older I am and have more control of my own time and it’s bliss… 🏝️I have more genuine care to give to others when I’m around them then.
like you I surround myself with good people now and it’s made all the difference, plus lovely hubby so it’s good quality interactions now in the main. ✊
I’m like that with bread too!
I think a lot of this is a journey in genuinely taking care of ourselves, isn’t it? 🙏
Rebecca,
This is the link to the venn diagram I mentioned re overlaps / similarities / differences of autism, ADHD and giftedness/ sensitivity…
https://tendingpaths.wordpress.com/2022/12/12/updated-autism-adhd-giftedness-venn-diagram/
Hi Jade,
Thank you for the link. I looked into before because my best friend thinks I have ADHD, but it’s my CPTSD that looks similar. Xx
Hi Jade,
There is a chart that compares ADHD, Autism and CPTSD, and how they overlap too. I thought that was the graph you were writing about. I looked at the graph you shared and I can see why my best friend thinks I have ADHD.
I don’t have a lot of the issues of ADHD/Autism and I score high in communication skills and other cognitive fields in test.
I’ve been tested before and I also asked a psycologist I was talking to and he didn’t think I had ADHD/autism either. He did think I have CPTSD, which again looks a lot like ADHD/ Autism.
I make and keep eye contact when I’m talking to someone. I read them when I’m talking to them, get their vibe, their body language and watch their facial expressions so I know if I’m being annoying to them, if they are interested in what I’m saying etc….I watch for clues of their reactions to me, so I know if I’m safe, if they are nice etc. I’ve done this since I can remember…like since 5 or 6 years old.
My best friend’s youngest daughter is ADHD/Autistic and she won’t look me in the eye. She doesn’t with anyone. She’s 10 and she’ll chew her fingers until they bleed. She chews holes in her shirts. She’s on medicine, book smart, but no common sense…so her mother tells me. I wonder if she’s overmedicated, but I’m not a doctor.
Her oldest daughter has ADD and she went on her medicine years ago and is fine. She’s in her mid 20’s now. The youngest daughter is 10. Xx
Could there be a connection to ADHD/ AUTISM and narcissistic abuse? Researchers haven’t found the exact cause of Autism or ADHD. They know what causes CPTSD…long term abuse…narcissistic abuse is the next connection =answer. Xx
Dear Jade,
I thought HRT would’ve covered SNR’s, sorry to hear that.
When I went thru “the change” I literally had every symptom on the list and those that hadn’t been discovered yet haha. My family thought I gone completely psycho haha
HRT was a lifesaver, however my symptoms lasted 12 years. 🤪
At least you’re looking after yourself Jade, congrats lovely ☺️
No problem Rebecca. I agree.. I think cptsd is much more likely in your case (and you’ve had diagnosis’).
I found that diagram useful around the overlaps of sensitivity and autism. I’m not autistic but get a lot of the overwhelm and overstimulation stuff that autistic people do and this helped with understanding that. I think it’s related to my physical pain, and it seems there’s a link. 🤔
Thanks Rebecca, it does seem like cptsd in your case I’ve thought too from when you first shared FWIW. Will be interesting to see re autism and ADHD and narcissistic abuse. I think ADHD is thought to have some links.. maybe a chronic flight response internally I think I read.. 🤔
Thanks Bubbles! Yup, HRT has been a lifesaver for me too! It’s a strange time of life.. hard health wise for me but I’m appreciating liking myself better and not giving a shit so much lol, after a lifetime of people pleasing! 😁
Hi WhoCares,
Thanks for your kind words and I do tend to share easily, when I’m comfortable with someone I feel safe with. I also noticed I tend to bring out sharing in others. I think it’s the Geyser in me, when I used to think it was my Contagion in me.
My best friend calls me for advice and I get emotionally involved with her recounting of what happened. I feel her pain, her anger and my Contagion works with my Geyser and we both get upset about what happened to her, or her daughter etc.
I usually feel like knocking the abuser in the head, after she tells me what happened. My Saviour is strong too. 😄 I often feel very protective over those I love and I struggle with reining in my anger over abuse they suffer from others.
When my brothers roommate found him dead in his room, this is after my parents died….he lived with a roommate in a house….the police thought he was murdered and took his body. I felt shock, grief and anger, when I was told how he was found and that they were investigating his death.
Autopsy report was sent to me. I still have it, kept in a box of his things I can’t part with. I can’t bear to part with the box of things. It’s all I have left of him.
I was so angry, thinking someone killed him. I wanted to find them and hurt them. I felt so much at once, I wanted to beat up this person.
His roommate came over with my brother’s things and I crashed his jacket to me and went into my bedroom, shut the door and wailed like a baby. I couldn’t believe he was gone and soneone killed my brother! I felt both strong grief, disbelief and anger! Why? Fuck it hurt!
I was relieved when 2 weeks later I got the call that he wasn’t killed. He died from his third heart attack. I felt some relief for that news, but I wondered what brought on the heart attack and that the M.E. couldn’t tell me. I hope it wasn’t an argument with his roommate that caused it. If so, I hope i don’t ever find out. It would upset me all over again and I couldn’t do anything about it. It’s best not to consider it and don’t imagine that scenerio. Xx
My brother was a psychopath and I still love him regardless of his issues or how he was born. He’s my brother and always will be my brother. Love and attachment are definitely my chains, but I also see that I’m very protective and stubbornly loyal to my own damage and hurt, but yet I have no Martyr in me…..but, I have strong Carrier and I understand Martyr is Carrier 2.0. Xx
I am sorry about your brother, Rebecca. ❤️
Hi Rebecca,
Thanks for sharing about your brother. And I am sorry that the circumstances surrounding his death still plague you.
“I was so angry, thinking someone killed him. I wanted to find them and hurt them. I felt so much at once, I wanted to beat up this person.”
The empath friend whom I spoke of previously also has a revengeful streak – I wonder if that’s, in part, due to a combination of Geyser, Saviour and high justice + anger traits…
My son can also express “an eye for an eye” sentiments. And, he knows I don’t approve of that (he definitely doesn’t get his revengeful streak from me.)
I also wonder if an empath with Geyser in their make up expresses such feelings in the moment – because that is exactly how they feel at the time and they feel compelled to give voice to that sentiment, but they would never actually follow through on such actions?
Hi Rebecca and WhoCares,
My Contagion and Geyser work in conjunction with each other too. If I’m near someone who is having a strong reaction and I feel it, I have a strong reaction too. It can be a bit unnerving.
I can have a revenge streak too but its revenge on behalf of others, not for myself. I don’t seek revenge if I’ve personally been wronged. Although I may think about it, I don’t normally follow through, If I’m protecting a loved one, then I do follow through. But its usually justice, not revenge. I’ll give you an example. I had someone close to me lose their job. I work in HR so I knew the termination was a wrongful termination. I made sure I followed through so the employer would get there comeuppance.
Who Cares,
Maybe you can have your son harness his justice trait into something positive. I love HR because it definitely feeds my justice trait.
Hi WhoCares,
I do have Savior and Geyser in my empath make up. I also have Justice and a revenge streak. I do have all 10 E and all 10 N traits from the Trait detector results.
My Geyser and Savior were very much in play when I talked to the police and was told about the investigation and how he was found in his bedroom….position of the body etc.
If my brother had been killed, he thankfully wasn’t killed…would I have hurt his killer?
Chances are I wouldn’t have known who he or she was, until the police had him or her in custody. I wouldn’t be able to reach him or her st that point.
If given the opportunity I would have spoken my mind to this person and possibly punched them in the face, but I wouldn’t have done more than that.
What I would have done is demand the death penalty. An eye for an eye is my revenge streak.
I am an emotional person and I have a strong urge to protect those I love and even people that are needing help, who are in danger…I can not sit there and not do something to help and/ or protect. It’s a reflex for me.
I couldn’t protect my brother…..if he had been killed…and the death penalty would be the only thing I could do for him.
If the person got a certain amount of years, then every time that person came up for parole, I’d make sure to be there to remind the parole board of what that person did. I’d do my best to keep that person in prison. That’s the least I could do for my brother.
I know you said, that you don’t agree with the eye for an eye revenge streak. I understand how you feel, but I also don’t feel it’s justice when a killer gets 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep on and he/ she gets to continue living their life….when the victim doesn’t have a life anymore, thanks to that killer.
Where’s the justice for the family of the victim? Where’s the justice for the victim?
I’m not angry talking about it. I’m more concerned about the system in America and how messed up it is right now. Xx
Rebecca,
Thank-you for elaborating.
“I am an emotional person and I have a strong urge to protect those I love and even people that are needing help, who are in danger…I can not sit there and not do something to help and/ or protect. It’s a reflex for me.
I have witnessed this reflex in action in those I know likely have Saviour traits – and, it’s definitely reflexive. The individual went into action, without much forethought, in defense of another.
Leigh,
“I work in HR so I knew the termination was a wrongful termination. I made sure I followed through so the employer would get there comeuppance.”
That would be satisfying.
“Maybe you can have your son harness his justice trait into something positive. I love HR because it definitely feeds my justice trait.”
That’s a good suggestion. (My son is similar to you in that he will seek revenge/justice on behalf of the mistreatment of his friends.)
But I have noticed, as of late, my son is starting to embrace something similar to “give the narcissist enough rope” even though I don’t (yet) speak of narcissists. At school he has learned that often an individual’s repeated poor behaviour will, eventually, result in their comeuppance – without him being a tattletale.
Hi WC,
Your comment about your son not being a tattletale made me chuckle. I was a tattletale, lol! Sometimes I’m still a tattletale now! But I love hearing that he’s embracing letting someone’s poor behaviors speak for themselves. I can go either way. Sometimes I like to speed up the process too.
Hi WhoCares,
I’ve rescued my dog three times from other dogs attacking him and I did it without thinking. MLSNarc thinks I’m nuts. He said, a dog isn’t worth getting hurt over.
To me he is and the most recent time, I got bit, but better me than my dog. That’s how I feel about that. Xx
Hi WhoCares and Leigh,
The revenge streak/ justice trait is stronger for loved ones than for myself for me too.
Meaning, my anger is stronger for others, than it is for myself. I’m more hyped up to defend other people than myself, but I will eventually defend myself if it’s bad enough.
I pulled through with contacting HR for myself. I had to talk myself into it, but the thought of him hurting other people gave me the push I needed. I guess even then other people was the real motivator. Xx
Leigh,
“Sometimes I’m still a tattletale now! But I love hearing that he’s embracing letting someone’s poor behaviors speak for themselves. I can go either way. Sometimes I like to speed up the process too.”
I’m less tattletale but am thinking and embracing more of it recently.. I think it’s a Super trait?
Love that!
My cats bitten me twice Rebecca when I was intervening with a skin issue that was bothering him.. like you with your beloved dogs, I felt like it was the right thing …
Same here again Rebecca re finding it easier to stick up for others, though I’m finding as I’m healing and feeling more self esteem, I’m doing it for myself more too which feels good. I’m quiet with it generally but I’m finding when I do it, people know I’m serious and I know I won’t budge now. 🥷
Leigh,
“I can go either way. Sometimes I like to speed up the process too.”
I totally get that, Leigh. At my job before this one, I so wanted to tell my bosses how difficult their narc office manager was to work with, that she is messing up their business and that this was the real reason I was leaving. I didn’t do it…but mostly because I did not think they were of the mind to believe me.
Re: being a tattletale at school. My son has also observed that teachers – at least at his school – will not really do much to hold bullies accountable if other kids tell on them and the only real outcome is the complainant being labeled as a ‘tattletale.’ And, even if there IS some repercussion, the bully invariably goes back to being a bully at some point. So, he no longer sees the point in calling out their poor behaviour and he is starting to believe me when I tell him that some individuals will keep bothering you if you’re sure to give them a reaction – and that’s mostly what they want: to matter.
It’s less of a problem this year though, as his group of friends will advocate for themselves – plus, my son is one of the tallest kids at his school, so that helps!
Rebecca,
“…the most recent time, I got bit, but better me than my dog. That’s how I feel about that. Xx”
I remember! Under the arm, correct? Ow, that’s a tender area. Did you heal okay?
Hi WhoCares, Leigh and Jade,
WhoCares,
I did heal well from the dog punctures, there were 3 punctures and now they are barely noticable at all. I heal well from bodily injuries, but I’ve noticed I’m more cautious around big dogs I don’t know. I don’t think the extra caution is a bad thing, I took note of the difference after being bit. I pass the aggressive dog, several times on my daily laps around the neighborhood. I don’t take my elderly dog with me now, but that aggressive dog peeks at me through the fence. He makes me nervous, like I imagine he wants to bite me again, or he’s thinking, “Where’s your tasty treat of a dog?” He growls and barks at me and I’m very much aware of his aggression. It’s unnerving. Xx
Leigh and Jade,
It’s funny how much we react very similiar to our narc mothers and I’m sorry you two still have to deal with your toxic mothers. Part of me is grateful mine is gone. That sounds bad, but you two will understand how I feel regarding the relief I feel now and the bit of guilt I feel for feeling relieved about it. Geyser emotions. 🙄 Multiple feelings for one situation. Xx
Leigh and Jade,
Bullies are the worse to deal with at school and work, where you have to be mindful of how you react to what the bullies are doing to you.
I do my best to ignore them and go about my day. When I got bullied in 7th grade through 9th grade, it was due to three girls that would gang up on me.
They were flat and felt it funny that I had full breast in Junior high school. I developed early and they didn’t.
An empath friend, I think she was an empath with Super in her make up now that I can see it…my friend started calling them, to their face, THE ITTY BITTY TITTY COMMITTEE…and they stopped teasing me. It was funny how she shut them up.
My way was to ignore them, her way was to give them back their own medicine. It worked. Xx
Now that I’m an adult, I find I do a bit of both. I’ll ignore them, to a certain point, like with my old narc boss, but then I’d give him back some of my sassy mouth at times…and finally I ended up going to HR about his behaviors, when going to his boss didn’t resolve the issue.
I became a tattletail because I couldn’t punch him, like I would do to my brother when he would torment me and tease me when we were kids.
I realized punching him would get me sent to HR….so I did the next best thing, reported him.
I didn’t punch the three girls in school because I didn’t want to get sent to the Principals Office and worse, my Dad being disappointed by my behavior or my narc mother getting mad at me. It wasn’t worth all that, why I choose to ignore them. They didn’t ever put their hands on me, it was taunting words they threw at it.
My narc mother would tell me, ” Be better than them, be above those girls and just ignore their tauntings.” She was trying to make me stronger and feel better. I must have been painted white at that point to her. She sometimes was nice to me, even loving at times. I think it’s why she still stirred love in me towards her. Xx
Anyway, two of the three girls are still in contact with me to this day. Two of the three of them became friendly towards me, halfway through 9th grade. I think my empathic friend made the difference and I think she had Super in her, or maybe Saviour. She helped the situation. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
The same thing happened to me! The girls were jealous of me too. I ignored them though. I didn’t care what they thought. My mother would tell me they were jealous and to pay no mind to them. It only lasted a year though. Once they developed themselves, they left me alone.
Even as a child I could go either way. Sometimes I knew it was best to keep my mouth shut and other times I would take matters into my own hands. Somehow I knew the difference. Maybe that was my Contagion. Although, I only have a little bit.
My mom is still in the picture but I really don’t have much to do with her. She’s in a nursing home and I haven’t seen her in years. I’m at the point of relief and I feel grateful too. Thankfully, since I know she’s well taken care of, I feel no guilt. Crap, I hope that doesn’t change when the time comes she’s not longer here. Well, I guess I’ll see what happens. I’m still drawing the line and not going to see her.
Hi Rebecca
You and I have a lot in common. I also have Co Dependent, Geyser, and Contaigon. Trying to control that geyser has been quite difficult over the years. I have always had these great big emotions that ran side by side to a great big imagination. It took a lot of work and self control on my part to try and calm them or me. Sometimes it works and other times all hell breaks loose! I’ve learned not to beat myself up over it anymore, that’s who I am. For the first time ever I like me and you should not find fault in your tears from your emotions, they are genuine and it’s very hard to find genuine caring people anymore in this world. By staying here and staying with HG I have found peace. I never thought that was possible even though HG said that I would. I believe you will find that peace also. Take care.🥰
Hello FM1T,
I really enjoyed reading this. I also had a quick question.
You said, “I have always had these great big emotions that ran side by side to a great big imagination.”
Are you attributing the “great big imagination” to contagion? That is the way that I read it.
Thank you.
Hi Dani,
No the great big imagination was in a field all of its own. I never knew anything about any of this! I always thought the way I could feel certain things or know what was going to happen before it did was me being a very odd child and adult. I think the contagion was something that developed over time. I’m not good at explaining things very well but I’ll try. As a child not being able to protect myself I believe reading people and certain situations was a survival technique for me. Over the years I became really good at it and I continued using it into adulthood. I do know now there are things I feel so deeply that other people don’t believe or think I’m projecting certain things that aren’t real. I let them believe what they want. I already have strong emotions from the geyser that’s true but these feeling and images have nothing to do with the geyser. Dani I just went off in all kinds of different directions and I apologize. If this is not what you were looking for as an answer please tell me and I’ll try again. 🤦🏼♀️
Hi Dani,
I wonder if big imagination is connected to Contagion? I would love to know the answer to that! Xx
HG? Will you please expand on this idea? I’m really interested in the answer. Xx
Hi FM1T,
It makes some sense, and it is your answer. I’ve gathered from some commenters over the years that some view the sensitivity of the contagion school in different ways…some have indirectly indicated they view imagination as associated with it. Others have said things that I found rude…but that is their opinion. I’m glad they were honest about it and didn’t try to hide behind overly polite language.
If you have permission and don’t mind saying…are you a majority contagion or just significant or strong contagion? I’m very interested in how the contagion is experienced within the different ranges. It just seems so variable what it means and how people interpret it.
Me too Rebecca re imagination and contagion.
Hi FoolMe1Time,
Thank you, I’m working on accepting all of me and my firing emotions. Xx
I have a very active imagination too. 😄 I still need the light on when I go down in the basement. I imagine something is down there without the light on.
I have the same imagination when it comes to the ocean, why I won’t go deep in the ocean waves. I imagine sharks waiting for me to get my feet in the ocean. 😬😄
My brother used to enjoy my imagination. He liked getting it jumping. It made him laugh and I enjoyed getting scared too. I like horror movies and often jump and scream during them. I have a big startle reflex, much to my brother’s amusement and stimulation. Xx
Hi Rebecca!
I’m scared of the basement and the ocean too! LOL!
I suffer from hypoaphantasia. I’ve mentioned that before. Aphantasia is the inability to see things in your minds eye. I can see things but the pictures are flat and very dull, even blurry or hazy, not crisp or clear. So I don’t have an active imagination at all. So I don’t know if an active imagination goes hand in hand with Contagion. However, what I can imagine is how I might feel or how someone else might feel. I can imagine fear, joy, excitement, happiness, sadness, anguish, despair, anger, etc. If I’m imagining fear, anguish or despair, it can stop me dead in my tracks sometimes.
I’m curious, do you imagine feelings at all?
Hi Leigh,
I can imagine feelings others might have in a certain situation, like when a mother loses her daughter in an accident. I haven’t gone through that myself, but I can imagine the grief of losing a child. Is that what you mean, or did I misunderstand the question? Xx
The fear of the basement is my fear brought on by my own imagination as to what or who is in my basement, in the dark lurking…..my imagination has a field day with me! 😄
The fear of the ocean, is my fear of sharks….don’t care what all those nature channel people say….sharks are not monsters etc…yeah, they’re not monsters, but they still might mistake me for a snacky and that’s a hard nope from me.. Bruce goes hungry, sorry Bruce ole’ boy, not today! Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Yes, that’s what I meant but it goes deeper than that for me. Since my imagination is limited, I don’t imagine anything actually lurking in the basement. But what I do imagine is, how would it make me feel if there was something lurking in the basement. I’d feel terror and that’s what stops me in my tracks.
As for the ocean, it’s not about the sharks either. Again, its about how I would feel if I got caught out in the ocean unable to swim back. Again, I would feel terror. I don’t have the visual. Its just the feeling.
Sometimes the feelings I’m imagining are incorrect as well. Like the story of Karen, at first, I imagined that Mr. Tudor felt despair & desperation. That was incorrect and it wasn’t until the end that I realized it was irritation that he felt.
Gosh, I’m such a scaredy cat without the visual. I can’t imagine what it would be like with the visual too!
Hi Leigh
I’m like this too plus the visual! I have such a vivid imagination which is great with being creative but not so good in situations like you describe too lol. I go from 0 to 100. I started reading Stephen King books when I was a teenager but had to stop after “Pet Cemetery” as I didn’t sleep for two weeks afterwards! 😅
Hey Rebecca:
Not only are we one of the few on the blog who loved a ASPD, but we put ourselves at risk saving dogs. Jean Jacques my Frenchie puppy ( then 7 months) slipped out of his harness on a hike and went to play with a big old nasty husky. JJ was dumb and at risk so I jumped in and separated the two by a their leashes. The husky dog owner was a nut job and instead of pulling her dog away started punching me on my arm. I said pull your dog away! She finally stopped hitting me but kept calling me names as she pulled her dog away. A man with an Italian curso walked by. He said he had a run in with her and her angry husky but his dog ended it. lol. His big black Italian curso played with my puppy and inspector Clouseau and Lulu. Sweet dog ! I think HG could do a whole series on dog owners! And dog rescue has some of the craziest people alive. I have friends who rescue dogs and the stories they tell! Oh my!
Hi Contagious,
I love the dogs’ names! I found them funny and cute! Xx I’m glad you were able to get your puppy, safely back to you! Some dog owners are brain dead and don’t handle their dogs responsibily. I’ve expereinced this three times with my dog and I’ve experienced it at least two other times with my dog from when I was a teen and walked him. Xx
I wonder if there is a certain School and Cadre of empath who mainly do rescue of animals? I bet they all have percentages of Contagion in them and Saviour mix.
I would love to rescue animals full time and I do whenever I come across a stray animal. I take them to a friend, who helps at a sanctuary.
I think I’d enjoy it more doing it fulltime, but I have bills to pay, so I can’t afford to quit my job to do it. Xx
Hi again HG ☺️
1. Why would a narcissist parent keep telling some of their other adult children (who are genuinely sensitive) that their narcissist child is “very sensitive”.
Triangulation in order to assert control and receive fuel. The narcissist child may be seen as the golden child and thus very sensitive and in need of protection from the narcissist parent.
Thanks HG. 🙏 I can’t quite see the GC / SG roles in my FOO though I think now at least, I’m the SG to some degree since “I know” and am painted black as a result. I’ve also read that the oldest daughter often gets more crap from a NMom too, expecting her to be the mother she never had. 🤔
Perhaps there are no such statistics. But still, maybe you have answers to these questions H.G. Tudor 1) Do I understand correctly that narcissists do not have health problems: in the sense of chronic diseases? (naturally, we are not talking about elderly narcissists). 2) This question is related to the first one. My narcissist said that he does not feel physical pain in the same way as other people. Is this true? After all, physical pain is an emotionally charged feeling. Narcissists are not prone to psychosomatic diseases, chronic pain syndromes?
1. No, narcissists can have chronic health issues.
2. I suspect that is a lie and is part of his delusion and grandiosity.
Thanks H.G. Tudor.
Well, if we ever meet again, he will definitely answer for DISINFORMATION!
I will tell him that he is a CRAP teacher. He prepared “his” empath very poorly. (I was a capable student!!) As a result, his (once his! and it doesn’t matter that he thinks differently) empath is disgraced in front of narcissists.
Related to this HG and Josephina, my NMom keeps talking about other people having high pain thresholds (even when they clearly don’t! 🙄) which I think is her way (as well as blatantly ignoring that I have developed chronic pain and telling me to visit other “sicker” people despite my own illness) of trying to shut me down. She prides herself on not being ill mostly I think as part of her grandiosity which I think relates to the above. I can understand logically the thought of illness would be a threat to seeing herself as above others..
Dear Mr Tudor,
7 German AFD candidates die within a couple of weeks before the elections ! WTH is going on here? Coincidental and not suspicious……….my arse !!!!
Never in my life time, would I bear witness to a world takeover by these evil narcissistic psychopaths on mass scale from super powers, leaders and all those pathetic cowardly grandiose rich magnates.
Yes, we all know about the the 2030 Agenda and their 17 sustainable goals (what a lot of crap) WHO, UN, WEF, EU with the likes of Klaus Schwab, Larry Flint, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Blackrock, the big Pharmas, a Central bank, digital ID, all just to take power and control of the world blah blah blah
I really can’t (for the life of me) grasp or fathom this long term projectory with the calibre of people who are being allowed to take over the western countries. I don’t see the sense in spending all this money (which countries don’t have and are already in massive debt) in return for cheap wages (my maths is not great, but this just doesn’t add up in my book They are ill bred criminals and barbarians who continually inbreed, don’t want to work and turn every country into filthy cesspools. Why would anyone want to travel in the future…… to what ?
Whilst the rich only see $ signs ( I see masses have flocked to Dubai) the poor get poorer. No doubt they want this takeover to reduce the population and by continuing to feed them more chemically contaminated and biogenetic (GM) food to accelerate it further. The rich (in their infinite wisdom) have already destroyed our planet!
This world takeover is pure evil of the highest order!
Long term, it will not end well…….guaranteed!
Dear Bubbles, that was a rather colourfully worded rant. So understandable. Yet, at the same time, it was how your descriptions read to me that gave me a giggle or two…… thank you for that, Bubbles xx
Dearest Asp Emp,
Thanks AspEmp, I rather like a rant every now and then, it’s good for the soul haha
Unless the western countries (including America) stand up and take control, we’re all cooked !
As well as all this immigration overload, we now have China breathing down our necks 🤦♀️
Dearest AspEmp,
I think I have a “touch” of ADHD ! 😂
Hello Bubbles,
These deaths really weren’t suspicious. There is always a gap between the candidates’ registration and the election (over two months for the council elections in this case), so there is nothing strange about candidates dying before an election. In this case, there are 396 towns and 31 districts holding elections with thousands of candidates, out of which at least 16 have died in all, 7 of them from the AfD. It is by no means exclusive to the AfD. Out of those seven, one committed suicide, one 80-year-old died after a long illness, another four had severe prior health conditions such as liver/kidney failure. The remaining candidate died without signs of unnatural causes, according to police investigations. Privacy laws do not allow them to publish more.
In addition, parties are allowed to nominate replacement candidates until election day.
What I can tell you for my local/district council is that the AfD members are conspicuous for their absence from council and committee meetings. They are the ones who are most likely not to turn up for the job they were elected to.
Dear Anna,
With everything going on now in the world right now, I trust no one !
Thank you for shedding light on the situation. Very much appreciated.
Dear Bubbles,
I read your comment and it more or less ‘mirrored’ my thoughts / emotions about the world as it appears to be today. Without going into great detail, I shared my concerns about being ‘controlled’ by that particular system and my individuality being suppressed because it appeared that my choices were being “determined” as per technology. I was listened to and was assured that whatever obstacles that seem to be holding me back will be resolved to suit me as an individual, rather than be ‘dictated’ as such by technology systems. Yes, there may be restrictions yet it should not necessarily be done so that it impacts me personally more than previously. I am not adverse to change yet I am adverse to being controlled.
It was good to read what you said, thank you. Love to you both, xxx
Dear AspEmp,
Sorry to disappoint lovely, however, it’s all about control, whether we like it or not.
This is all being done, bit by bit, just like the frog in the saucepan analogy or the boiling frog syndrome.
Sadly, for most, it will be too late.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Arhhhh……..The Fabian Society… (a wolf in sheep’s clothing) it’s still a wolf no matter how much they try to cover it up as a turtle haha
What say you Mr Tudor ?
Happy Birth Month!
Thank you.
Morning HG,
I have been wondering if it’s ever a struggle running the blog in terms of:
1. Your reaction to readers discussing narcissism. Does it ever feel personal? You are obviously different from the majority of narcissists in being an aware narcissist, but does your high level of insight help to not make this an issue? I think I understand the approach you take here in terms of not “caring” but invested in your legacy and correct info, and also your not receiving as much fuel as you would in your day to day life but i still imagine it could have it’s challenges.. even for a “normal” or empath.. to keep frustration or lashing out in check at times? Or wanting to slightly nudge things a certain way?
2. Readers disagreements. You seem understanding but again wonder do you have to work at that?
I guess sometimes your insights seem so beyond what most people see, but presumably without it being emotional empathy, that it’s interesting to me to think about how you manage this.
3. If there’s an element of you learning to be more understanding etc above, do you feel any adjustments in your day to day life i.e. increased patience with people you interact with in person?
4. Do you think there’s any other narcissists with (of course not as high 😉) but similar understandings of the human condition to you and have you met them?
5. Do you ever wish you could talk to someone without hiding your identity apart from the good doctors?
1. It is rarely personal because
a. People write about their personal experiences with narcissists which of course do not involve me, and
b. Even where they are talking about narcissists as a whole, I do not see myself grouped with the rest, since I am the Ultra.
Furthermore where it is personal, it is usual people expressing their thanks and gratitude and if it is somebody lashing out, that does not trouble me.
I occasional experience mild irritation at inaccuracy.
2. I understand people disagree. That is not a problem for me. I recognise they disagree but that is between them, there is often no need for my involvement and I am not going to use my time becoming involved where there is no need. That is a logical response.
3. I think when you are using “understanding” you mean it the sense of acceptance, tolerance, patience whereas I see it terms of knowledge.
4. As a matter of logic, there will be others who understand humans well.
5. No. This is not a burden.
That makes sense, thank you HG. I find your logical approach useful to learn about.
With regard to your answer to 3. Is it that you have more knowledge (because of the blog interactions) of how to operate with people in your daily life? I thought I’d read recently that you have become more effective in meeting the prime aims as a result of the blog but also thought I’d seen somewhere here a while back that you’d noticed a slowing down due to your interactions here. Apologies if I’ve misremembered.
Thinking more about the logical approach to life, HG. Is this correct?
1. Narcissists need other people and their energy to “survive” / meet the prime aims so must seek out others especially empaths to achieve this… (and cannot stop themselves, aware or unaware)
2. Empaths are usually hurt (emotionally, physically etc) by narcissists (even minimal contact) so if looking at it purely logically ideally should eliminate (or minimise in co-parenting) contact with them…
So empaths must go against their nature and be more logical to be healthy and happy… But find it very hard to do because of emotional thinking, “it’s my parent”, “poor them” etc.
1. Correct.
2. Correct.
3. Correct.
Thank you again HG.
5. HG I recall you once saying that it is one of the greatest human desires – to confess. Is this why so many greaters and others who see the truth write songs/scripts/book in a way that is acceptable to the majority of people but they would read listen accept on “face” vale and not see the truth of what is being written about?
Indeed. Telling without telling.
Do you feel that desire yourself HG?
I already have me, so I need not desire me.
Thanks HG. I think I’m projecting my need for connection maybe, it makes sense it’s not a burden for you. 👍
😄 lol
HG, i mean does telling us here, who you really are, “scratch that itch” (if you have it) so to speak? You’re telling, without telling (your true identity)…?
I know you answered me elsewhere though that you aren’t burdened by not “telling” in your “real life” though ..
It is not a burden. I feel no compulsion by needing to tell, but I do derive benefits of course from doing so through this place under the auspices of anonymity.
Thank you so much HG. It’s like one of those magic eye books.
Hi HG,
I hope you’re having a good weekend. I have another question about readers disagreeing:
1. Would you intervene and help if a reader was bullying another reader and it was a one sided attack?
2. I’m trying to think logically and that makes me think you would (to protect your assets). Is that right?
1. If an individual was engaging in repeated ad hominem attacks and I gauged that the recipient was unable to handle those attacks, the comment would be deleted. One seeks to strike a balance between allowing people to articulate their views (often have been denied the opportunity to do so), allowing people to express strongly held opinions (whether well-formed or not), allowing people to see various behaviours and responses and a place which descends into meaningless insult. This is a place of learning and understanding.
Thank you HG. That’s the feeling I get from being here and I appreciate you sharing your process and that you do cultivate this environment for all of us. ❤️
I know you don’t have emotional empathy by nature of who you are but it sometimes feels that you do because of these insights (n.b. I know that’s something I need to watch in my life) however I think the more I talk with you the more I sense the logic in play too which is an interesting dynamic to my learning.
Sorry for another question HG, the more I talk with you here, the more I have to ask 😅
1. do you think your psychopathy contributes to your high level of logic and more logical thinking? From working with autistic people, I see some of them exhibit this trait too and it’s refreshing. However it’s not something I always notice or associate so much with narcissists?
Yes, I am emotionally detached and my psychopathy causes me to operate on logic and evidence.
Thank you for answering this: “If an individual was engaging in repeated ad hominem attacks and I gauged that the recipient was unable to handle those attacks, the comment would be deleted…”
How frequently do you observe parties where one stops engaging relatively quickly…and what can you tell about them from that?
Is that a good indicator about school or cadre for you?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
I have not kept records to evaluate the frequency.
Thank you, sir. Much appreciated.
Thank you HG.
Hi Dani,
“How frequently do you observe parties where one stops engaging relatively quickly…and what can you tell about them from that?”
It could be that the person who stops engaging quickly is one who has learned well from HG. If they recognize the person may be a narcissist, there is no point in further engagement. I strive for this, have not quite achieved it yet.
It could also be an empath who doesn’t want to disagree, for their own reasons, nothing to do with the other person specifically.
Or sometime else entirely.
One of the best things that happened to me here was finding my voice, because of the opportunity for engagement on the blog. I don’t know if it would translate to a one on one relationship yet, but I’m aware now and stronger, so I hope so.
Hi AV!
“It could be that the person who stops engaging quickly is one who has learned well from HG…” — I have considered that. I thought that it might also be linked to certain schools. The Super Empath is likely to spot it but also likely to want to stand up for themself or others. The Contagion might withdraw as that is more of a go-to response for them. Someone with high saviour might be more likely to engage to defend someone. Someone with high magnet might try to smooth it over. A co-dependent might be triggered to want to keep explaining themself. I think some patterns might be harder to get out of than others. The saviour really engaging…or the contagion just withdrawing.
“It could also be an empath who doesn’t want to disagree, for their own reasons…” — That’s fair. It may also be someone obsesses over what to say for a long time and ends up saying nothing because they think that the time to say something “expires.” It’s difficult to say.
“One of the best things that happened to me here was finding my voice, because of the opportunity for engagement on the blog. I don’t know if it would translate to a one on one relationship yet, but I’m aware now and stronger, so I hope so.” — That’s really interesting. The online environment is very different. It’s easy for some to keep engaging because they don’t have to see the hurt that results from their behaviors, but it may also be easy to disengage from it because of how indirect the online situation is. I hope that if you want to test your voice in a one on one relationship that you can and that you have the wisdom to know when you’re dealing with a narcissist and get out.
HI Dani,
If I may, sometimes my savior and/or super will drive me as well. Sometimes I’ll want to defend another blogger or myself. Sometimes I want to call out an inaccuracy too. I’m sure you’ve seen me do this before. Sometimes a blogger might be sharing their thoughts and opinions and it might offend another blogger. Something drives me to address them directly. I’m not sure what it is. Maybe its my justice trait or truthseeker trait. Anyway, if after I address them, they’re still being provocative and unkind, I tap out. At that point it doesn’t matter where they fall, empath, normal or narc, if they can’t hear me then there’s no reason for a conversation anymore. Its unkindness that really gets to me. I don’t like it when I see it. And if someone is being told repeatedly that their comments are unkind and they still don’t see it, then I’m wasting my breath by repeating myself and I disengage.
Hi Dani,
I agree with your assessment entirely! Being predominantly Savior, and very high in Super, it has proven to be quite challenging for me to step back at times here on the blog. I have improved though.
In my real life, upon reading HG’s “The Virtues of Keeping Your Mouth Shut”, no problem, I had already been practicing ANC and hearing that one solidified it even further for me. I have a lot more at stake in my real life though, than here on the blog. And, in my real life I recognize there will be no improvement, so no point. Here, maybe what I say will help someone else. There’s that Savior, haha!
I appreciated your question to HG, it was interesting to consider.
Hi again Dani,
By one to one relationship I was referring to a romantic relationship. I do speak openly with my children and friends that matter in my life. I have found though that when the possibility of a romantic relationship has arisen, I have sometimes struggled with the idea of being entirely honest, with myself and possibly the other person, at all times. This is how I unknowingly used to live, and how I ended up in relationships with narcs. Old habits die hard. But I think if I meet an empath or normal who is interested in me, and vice versa, I may not find, as trust builds slowly, that this is a problem. That’s the hope anyway. Right now, my ET is too high to even consider dating. I have to wait until circumstances in my life change and my ET goes down.
Thank you for your assistance and rule over the blog, HG. You make it a safe haven here and I appreciate your dominion here. Xx
Hi AV,
You said you struggled to be completely honest in romantic relationships. What topics? Were there specific things you preferred to keep quiet?
The problem with the “if you can’t be helpful at least don’t be hurtful” mindset though is each individual’s definition of helpful and hurtful can differ. What one might find hurtful, another might find startling, perhaps even brutal in it’s truth, but helpful in the end. There are many levels of sensitivity.
NA,
That is true. The difference in my mind regarding the blog is that, unless we’re in an actual conversation with someone, everyone else has the ability to read and accept or reject as they wish. When I’m in a direct conversation with someone, I do try to be sensitive while still being straightforward, and it depends on various things involved within the conversation and my knowledge or lack thereof of the other person. My intent would never be to hurt an empath who is seeking help and information.
Hi Dani,
Regarding honesty in romantic relationships. It is not that I am knowingly dishonest. My history has been that I will make excuses for behaviors that are bad and that I will accept them without speaking up. I am as dishonest to myself as to the other person. I’ve only ever been romantically involved with narcissist though, and part of the addiction, for me at least, is this dishonesty. It isn’t about specific topics, it’s in general about how I’m treated. I always pride myself on being a very honest person in fact, but since being here I’ve come to understand that I was not as much as I thought I was. And I don’t know if it would be any different going forward, I’ve not had an opportunity to test it.
Hi AV,
I appreciatd reading your answer. It’s given me a lot to think about. I would be interested in knowing how many empaths agree with it. Being dishonest with themselves…I don’t know where I fall on that. It’s a big thing to think about.
Leigh and AV,
Reading about “the virtues of keeping our mouths shut” discussion, I think I’m the other end.. I’m now learning to say stuff when needed. I’ve always help others if needed but fear of confrontation mostly leaves me stepping away unless absolutely necessary. I like seeing empaths here who are a bit more fierce! Maybe it’s all a balance.. now I’m saying what I need to say and realising it doesn’t always have to be scary or end in conflict… Though of course, it might.
Hi Jade,
Just found this comment:
“Leigh and AV,
Reading about “the virtues of keeping our mouths shut” discussion, I think I’m the other end.. I’m now learning to say stuff when needed. I’ve always help others if needed but fear of confrontation mostly leaves me stepping away unless absolutely necessary. I like seeing empaths here who are a bit more fierce! Maybe it’s all a balance.. now I’m saying what I need to say and realising it doesn’t always have to be scary or end in conflict… Though of course, it might.”
I’m also learning to say things when needed. The difference for me is more in the knowing who to say things to and who not to. That’s where keeping my mouth shut has been handy. I no longer speak anything extra to known narcissists. Nothing at all if possible. But for those who are either not known 100% to be narcissists, speaking my truth to them can be quite telling, helping to confirm one way or another. And speaking to non-narcissists has become far easier, with feeling more confident in my ability to assess people and practice stating my thoughts. Coming to not fear conflict has been a part of that, though it’s kind of incredible how little conflict there usually is with non-narcs, even when we disagree.
Thanks for your comment AV. it is a good reminder. I feel like I have needed to go through a phase of saying things but I do need to keep my mouth shut with my mum in relation to what you’re saying, absolutely. I have known for a while that even the weather isn’t safe with her, there’s always an angle! I think I know now how to manage it going forward (ANC) but thanks for the reminder – very important. And yes, once they’re 100% N – information lockdown. Thank you. Hope you’re well.
Hi Jade : if it helps anyone. I have been concerned at times about what I wrote. Will it offend? Was it just plain stupid to reveal this or that and I go off topic ( not published at times) . But every time I arrive, I am relieved I am not a focus at all and some kind person may even comment. I don’t mind anyone correcting me or disagreeing with me. That’s healthy! It leads to growth:) But I like to be think of us a group of empath warriors. Supporting one another! I love it when another helps another. There is a crazy world out there. It’s brutal. Back to back, hand in hand.
Love this Contagious! Thank you for the reassurance and solidarity. ❤️
Contagious,
Fwiw, I’ve never seen you be what I considered to be offensive at all.
Hi Jade,
I was similar to you in the beginning as well. I wanted to hold people to account and point out there behaviors. Early on, I remember reading Mr. Tudor say, if you need to say it, say it once and then move on. Before reading that, I could get stuck in a loop where I felt like I was repeating myself. After reading that, I worked on stating it only once.
Now I’ve gotten to the point where I try not to say anything at all because I realize it does no good. It just aggravates me and they get fuel. I have a big mouth though and sometimes I don’t give a crap and I say something anyway. I weigh my options now though. Before, it was knee jerk reaction.
Hi Leigh, for me, i find conflict really hard and also tiring, especially with chronic fatigue and pain so I was asking HG, I guess from the angle of assessing if it was “safe” to join in, particularly in terms of how he would moderate (obviously not having emotional empathy). I feel happy with how he responded and being here (though I got a bit scared I annoyed him the other day 🫣).
I can and will hold people to account but it takes a lot and I’m usually the peacemaker. I never liked this about myself when younger.. I wanted to be more like you honestly, but I can appreciate the pros and cons of different make ups now.. no one has it “easier” I realise now.
I had this belief that I was “too soft”, and I am a soft person on the whole, but realising the whole ACON situation and the obvious (now) grooming of these traits by my mom as well as my nature and that I’m steel underneath actually when needed has helped. And I do think the world needs soft and kind people that also don’t take any shit, now more than ever! 🪶👊
So I’m working on it and embracing my nature at the same time! The nice thing for us, as empaths I think, is we can learn and adapt in whichever way, up and down the spectrum we need to. I’m definitely working on my “super” muscle!! 💪
Thanks for that you shared. I do say things too many times though as well, especially with my mom (for example explaining chronic pain and fatigue for the millionth time ..as she has a narrative that I’m not ill 👀). I was thinking the other day I need to be done, done, done there!
Hi Jade,
Its ok. I’m sure I annoy Mr. Tudor all the time too, lol!
I try to be a peacemaker too. I don’t want people to have hurt feelings. But sometimes my patience can wear thin. I can also be reactive and have a sharp tongue.
What I’ve learned as an ACON is that we’ve been sent messages since we were children and then they’ve settled in. We’ve also been molded to react a certain way. Instead of thinking that you’re too soft, maybe look at it like you prefer to be kind. Try to turn the negative into a positive. By seeing yourself as too soft, you think its a negative thing. But by seeing yourself as kind, now it becomes a positive.
Yes, we can learn and adapt and that’s a wonderful thing!
Hi Leigh and Jade,
I find I bit my tongue more nowadays, but there are still times when my emotions get the better of me and words come flying out my mouth….and I’m like damn…that one got away from me…I’m doing the best I can, I’m fighting this mouth and this temper…xx
Absolutely Leigh. It took me a long time to figure out who I am disentangling from childhood stuff but actually I think you realise, don’t you, that not everyone is kind so it was good to see that’s basically who I am (mostly! 😉) and it flipped the negative “soft” on its head. I can’t say I’m thankful as such for this journey but I do know myself better the last few years since learning about narcissism. It’s nice to discover your good kind side but also the grit that you never realised was there too! I
It’s so funny Rebecca and Leigh .. I’ve always been like “why won’t the words come out”?! Anyway this education plus menopause has flicked that switch! 🧨
I do get though that it’s frustrating when you want to hold your own counsel. You’re both reflective, aware and working on it though which is most of the battle. 💪
I hope and pray that opinions rage on but that the rule “ respectfully disagree” remains. I love it when we debate, it educates us! And all voices are unique, so crucial….
Well said Contagious.
Jade, these were very cool questions. It was interesting to read the answers of H.G. Tudor
Thanks Josephina. ☺️ It’s the people pleaser and empath in me lol. What I mean is, I could see it’s ok to discuss narcissism and our experiences here but I also felt a bit rude and worried about offending HG (though obviously he’s a different calibre as the Ultra).
HGs answers reassured me and actually I find the logic side of things very refreshing and something I want to learn more about. Since I’ve started commenting, all these questions pop into my head!
Dear Mr. Tudor, wishing you a wonderful golden September birthday month!
Thank you.
Trying a third time….failed error messages. ..
Happy Birthday month, HG! Hope you have a fuel filled celebration just for you! Xx❤️❤️
The Nonce Verification errors are driving me nuts!
For some strange reason, I never get the Nonce Verification error when I refresh the page (I do it twice to make sure it reloads everything properly, because when I refresh only once, the browser often does not load the newest comments and articles) just before sending in my comment.
Thank you so much for this info, AP! I often have to refresh twice as well in order for the comments to come up. I’ll keep that in mind when I’m writing my comments as well. Thank you again!
Me too, Leigh, but I was determined to get through the bs! 😄xx
Don’t thank me yet, Leigh, it might not work on every device! Anyway, to keep the page refreshment, well, fresh, I like to write my comments in a document first and then, when it is ready for posting, reload the page and copy the text to the blog page. This also prevents loss of comments when something does go wrong.
So far its been working but I’m still copying my comments before sending them, especially if its a lengthy one. Better safe, than sorry.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Another year older and wiser 😉 best wishes for a “Happy Birthday”, hip hip hooray 🥳
Thank you.
Hi HG,
I hope you’re well. Thank you for all the time you spend answering questions, it is appreciated.
I remember as a kid (maybe around 5, 6 or 7 years old) being aware of not wanting to manipulate others because I knew it didn’t feel good and didn’t want that for another (I knew this because this as I was manipulated by my parents even if I didn’t have words for it). Is this the moment where we choose one path or another? I.e. another could might have picked up on the power of a narcissistic parent and wanted to be like that instead?
Thanks 🙏
Hello Jade, this could have proven to be a formative moment in your development towards one route or another.
Thank you HG, very useful to know. I think I read you had a similar moment of seeing the power your mum weilded as a child, is that right?
Another question that’s been on mind recently is:
1. whether a narcissist parent would ever genuinely show remorse on their death bed and recognise and apologise for not being a better parent to an adult child?
Ps happy blog-iversary too. 🎉 It blows my mind how much you help people.. Thank you for what you do.
How cool is it that we’re alive in this time with the internet so you can help such a large audience in the way you do. I felt sorry for previous century empaths with no HG. 😌
1. They are a narcissist. The narcissist is devoid of genuine remorse.
Thank you.
Thank you HG, that helps. I was on the fence about which they were but I think it was genuine so that answers my question.
Over a golden child- it looked very genuine, even beyond…it was painful to watch ..
Thanks Arya. I hadn’t thought of that angle.. it makes sense. 🙁
Hi all, Another moment that came to mind since discussing all this, was, on my psychology degree I was learning about psychopathology e.g. psychopathy and lack of empathy etc. I remember getting the chills and thinking (rightly I believe) that though I found it fascinating it wouldn’t be a good career path for me. However I also wonder looking back now if it hit too close to home with my parents and I wasn’t ready to face it then.
Hi Jade, I also remember times of thinking, “I will not do that!”. Or be that it whatever. As a very young child also, some of those times. I have thought, it was how I was born, to reject the desire to be like the narcissists who were raising me. Though I was more like my father, intentionally because I completely rejected being like my mother, and I think even that decision was part of what created the type of empath I am. Your comment was very interesting to me, to realize others have had similar experiences.
We have a lot of similarities A Victor. I also tried to be more like my dad! But it was all very subconscious for me .. I knew I didn’t want to manipulate but didn’t realise (till I was 44 when something happened that made me realise big time!) that that’s what it was in relation to my parents. My mom is worst. There’s very much a happy family facade even now and I seem to be the only immediate family member that sees it. When did you “know”?
Just to say A Victor, it’s helped a lot that you’ve told me how similar our Mom’s are and have been sharing some of your story with me. I still question myself (though not so much these days usually) and especially after seeing her recently and being gaslit.
To come here and start commenting and have that validation is very helpful .. so thank you.. considering no-one else in my family sees it and often tells me how great she is even when she’s being in full narc-mode in front of them lol (I understand why though, I used to “not see it”). Appreciate your help. ❤️
Hi Jade,
Happy to share, it is what many did for me early in also, and it was very helpful, validating. They are narcs because of their behaviors, they will all be the same in some ways, the closer in kind that they are, the more similarities will likely be seen. I know others who’ve spoken about their LMR Victim narcs and we could be talking about the same person they are so similar. It’s almost errie but it brings home to me that it is a disorder they have, not personal to me, so that helps. Not sure if that’s your mother, I suspect not quite as her facade sounds more well built than my mother’s, but they are similar and their effect on us also was it sounds like. I wish you continued benefit from the blog, it is a wonderful place.
I appreciate that A Victor. I think that sharing and passing it forward is invaluable. I have the opportunity in my own work to do that also and often recommend HG too.. just having someone get what we’re actually talking about and validating it is huge (and not saying things like “that’s normal, that’s what mums do” which many therapists said to me 🙄) as well as pointing you in the right direction for correct information.
Apart from living it with this stuff, I find psychology fascinating and exactly as you said, it’s a disorder.. all so similar underneath it all.. so mostly I feel compassion (at a distance) for narcs including my mom these days. I think my mom is some kind of mid ranger but yeh maybe not LMR.. her facade is strong. One of her best friends is a psychiatrist (and I don’t think is a narcissist themselves). It took me a while to join in here but I’m glad I have. ❤️
Jade, I’m glad you joined in also, I have enjoyed hearing your thoughts very much!
Just saw this one, I often read from the bottom up through a thread, when a comment takes me to that lower point.
I knew my parents were not normal probably in my mid twenties. I didn’t have a name for it until my mid 50’s, when I found the blog. I knew very quickly that my mom was a narcissist, it took a little longer with my dad, I didn’t want to see it with him, but finally I couldn’t not see it.
I had, over all those years, been trying to make sense of their behaviors, would even talk with one of them about things I saw with the other sometimes, to try to get some answers. There were none. Now I understand why.
Good idea re blog comments.
Like you A Victor, mom was clear to me, when I “got it” (mid forties) but I spent a long time wondering about my dad but think I’m right in thinking he wasn’t an N but damaged, enabling and emotionally immature with a touch of schadenfreude. There’s the tendancy in me at least to hope that it’s not both of them that are / were Ns but like you I try and be rigorous and honest (about the positive and negative) and I think I’m right.
He apologized for not being a better dad before he died and whilst it took nearly half a century despite me gently trying to talk to him about stuff so many times, I really appreciated it. It helped me so much because the happy wonderful mother and family facade is still strong. I know he knew “something” was off even if he didn’t go into a lot of detail. Ironically I feel I have less to forgive of him but all in all I’m glad we made peace.
Hi AV and Jade,
I remember thinking as a kid, that I don’t want to be like my mother. I didn’t like her pity plays, fake crying and other manipulations to gain sympathy from people. I didn’t know what to call her manipulations, but I did know she lived for people to feel sorry for her. I didn’t want to be like her.
I admired my Dad’s work ethnic, his willingness to help people, his intelligence and his strength to deal with my mother’s daily demands. I wanted to be more like my Dad. I was around 8, give or take a couple of years, but I noticed the difference in their behaviors. I couldn’t understand what the behaviors meant, but I noticed them.
I also noticed my brother’s behaviors and I didn’t want to break the rules like he enjoyed doing so much. He got in trouble with Dad a lot. Being a Psychopath, he liked setting things on fire. Dad didn’t respond well to that behavior and my mother would make excuses for my brother, her Golden child, and my Dad’s reason to stress out.
I admired my older brother because he made friends so easily, where I was more introverted and shy as a kid. I didn’t like how he upset my Dad so much, but I still looked up to him, as his litttle sister.
He drove my Dad nuts and my mother would side with my brother. The three of them would argue whenever he had another of his incidences and if I was home, I’d calm my Dad down, or calm my mother down.
My brother was already calm. Hardly anything got him upset at all. He’d get angry, but not upset.
HG,
I’d really like to know which School and Cadre my brother fit in as a Psychopath. I’m looking forward to knowing more about Psychopathy. So much is still a puzzle for me. Xx
Interesting Rebecca. Your brother’s sound very different!
I think in my family we all idolised my father in comparison to my mother but unfortunately he also was very stunted and when I “realised” everything about mom, also saw behind his mask and that he’d enjoy stirring your pot (even with young kids in the family when they were upset) and enabled mom’s behaviour rather than stand up to her. He did apologise before he died and I found him easier than mom. He did a lot of good too (like my mom, which makes it hard to reconcile sometimes).
Your dad sounds lovely. ❤️ Its nice you had that good, steady role model. Can you see in your family tree where the psychopathy was passed down?
Hi Jade,
I was shocked when my brother’s NDC came back psychopath, but then his behaviors were psychopathic and it clicked.
The pyro obsession for him, the law breaking antics he did, hurting the family dog and other behaviors that upset me growing up with him.
I think the psychopathy came from my paternal grandmother. She had some psychopathic behaviors. She once pulled a gun on her kids, put the gun to each of their heads and told them each who their real fathers were. They were kids and my Dad was the oldest of 6. I’ve had 3 of his side of the family tell me this incident. It’s chilling to me, but a gleams into what they all lived with as kids. It made me realize why my Dad was quick to make my narc mother happen, even when it meant he had to punish my brother and I. He was chasing her love, trying to make her happy, where he couldn’t please his own mother. I felt for my Dad, he had my love and empathy for his pain and his own abuse. I felt protective over my Dad and even my brother. I felt my mother was the one I needed to protect them from.
When she died, i felt sad, but I also felt my Dad, brother and I were free from her abuse. I felt conflicted with those two battling feelings inside me. I’m gratful I’m able to understand it all now. The resentment and love I felt for her and the protective love I felt for my Dad and brother.
My Dad was a Normal, from his NDC results. He was a decent, hardworking man. Vietnam Vet, Aviaion Engineer for the Navy and Commercial building inspector after retiring from the Navy. He was a good provider, good Dad and I was a daddy’s girl 100%. My life was deeply affected when he died. I still hold him dear to me. I don’t think his loss will ever go away. Xx
Wow Rebecca! I think sometimes these things are a shock on one level but later we realise we knew feel down. It does sound like it came from your grandmother.. yikes! Yeh, the dynamic with your mother likely reminded him of his own mother.
It really does help to understand more about our families doesn’t it? The conflicted feelings and not to excuse their behaviour but see the links going back.
Your dad sounds wonderful and I’m glad you had such a good relationship. ❤️ I am sorry for your loss, it doesn’t go away, does it?
Hi Jade,
Yes, I think it helps with understanding the dynamics of our families and how and why they related to each other the way they did. I can see my own Dad’s abuse and how it affected his emotions and reactions in his life. My mother was also abused by her own Dad and she reacted differently to that abuse than my Dad.
I can look back at their behaviors now and understand so much about them now. Thanks to HG’s work, I understand them more and that helps with the healing.
My brother,s reaction was different due to his psychopathy. Abuse, on the outside seemed to bounce off him. He seemed unbothered for the nost part, but I did gleams at times annoyance and anger when abuse was shoved his way. I still felt protective towards him and a few times he protected me. I sometimes wonder what he felt about me and how he saw me. There’s so much I want to know about psychopathy, getting in their mind and seeing through the eyes. I want to understand him, like I understand my Dad and mother. Xx
Hi Jade,
Thank you, my Dad was a deep loss for me. That saying about love hurting and only bad love hurts, isn’t true. Death causes even good love to hurt you, so love hurts, even when it’s good.
I looked up to my Dad, he was the light in my life as a child. Every time he would go overseas for Naval duties, I would grief for him. I would get deeply depressed and felt lost. I remember missing him so much it hurt my chest.
I was overjoyed when he came home, much to my mother’s annoyance. She would ruin his homecoming with made up stories about how bad my brother and I were while he was away. She’s get him so upset over her fake tears that he would punish us with the belt or his hands.
I forgive him for each time it happened because I love him and I didn’t blame him for believing her lies. Her lies are what got me hit, not him. It’s why I resented her. She tried to make me not love him because I didn’t have the same love for her as I had for him and she knew it and was envious of how much I loved him. She wanted to stop that love, she wanted all of my love to herself. I see that now. She was very selfish and possessive. Xx
I can understand wanting to learn more about psychopathy and your brother. I’ve found the more I’ve understood my stuff, the more peace I’ve felt. It doesn’t erase or excuse everything but does get your head in some kind of order.
Rebecca,
How you describe your dad is beautiful.. a testament to him and your relationship. ❤️ I’m glad you could see the dynamics with your mum and keep that strong bond with your dad.
Hi Jade,
I’m glad I could see past her mask and know who she really was, even as a kid I saw her. She knew it, I think somehow she saw it on my face, in my eyes, I saw through her mask. Her manipulations outside the home looked ridiculous to me. I remember thinking, Come on mother, you can see better than that, stop acting like you’re completely blind, you look crazy, how embarrassing you are, please stop with the fake limp, it was your right foot, remember? I remember thinking like this as a kid with watching her antics. She once fumbled around for her silverware on the table, in front of a waitress. I rolled my eyes at her silly display of complete blindness. How I wanted to call her out and embarrass her, but i kept it quiet and kept her secret. Xx
You sounded very clear sighted. I kind of saw but didn’t at the same time if that makes sense? I think I was holding on rather than facing it at that stage.
Hi Jade,
I saw through my mother’s facade as a young kid. I didn’t know what to call her behaviors, except fake. I knew when she faked crying and faked hurting. She acted like a totallu different person in the house, especially when Dad was away. She put on the mask with my Dad. He was fooled.
My brother noticed too, but he would manipulate her, himself. He played her own game against her. He would smoke in the house, knew he wasn’t allowed to smoke in the house and smoke until she got upset with him.
If Dad was home, she would cry and act hurt by him smoking in the house…her weak lungs couldn’t take the smoke after all, or so she had Dad believing….she would cry, Dad would get mad and yell at him to stop smoking. He would stop smoking, but now he had Dad and Mother both upset with him. Boredom lifted. And when they quite down. He’d light another cigarette to start it all over again. I used to sit and watch tv with him and watch him do it.
When Dad wasn’t home. She wouldn’t cry, she would yell at my brother to stop smoking and he would lie and tell her he wasn’t smoking, that it was someone walking by the house. She would believe him because she wouldn’t think he would lie to her. Xx
Ha! I see it HG, how my brother played them. I would watch him, trying to figure him out. HG, was that my contagion side, sizing him up? I wonder if he noticed me studying him closely? HG, did he notice? Xx
Rebecca,
My mum would also cry a lot and I thought she was just very emotional. It’s only in recent years that I saw what’s happening. Again she’s got a good facade so it happened consistently to my mind anyway, I’m sure there were glitches then as I see them now. It’s only when she’s been so cold about things in recent years I can see how it’s situational and always, always for herself.
Your mother exhibited that classic switching of the mask when it suited her! it’s good you understood that your dad was fooled by it so you understood what was happening (though weird as their child!). I think on some level I “knew” something at least but couldn’t pull it together till later in more recent years. It sounded like an interesting dramatic scenario with your brother then playing your mother too! 🥴
Hi Jade,
The dynamic between my brother and my parents was draining at times. I remember seeking the santuary of my bedroom often, during childhood, teen years and as a young college student, before moving out.
They’d start arguing sometimes, while I was in my room. I’d leave my room to calm my parents down. My brother liked to stir the pot with my parents.
I’d get them to calm down and I’d go back to my room, or I’d go outside and get out of the house.
I hated it when they’d fight and sometimes I was pulled into their fight. It was chaos at times, but sometimes we’d have good days too. It was what I thought was normal for my life. Xx
I get that Rebecca. It’s weird how the good and bad can mic together.. and of course it’s all “normal” as there nothing else to compare to. Did your brother aim any of his psychopathy at you?
Hi Jade and Bubbles,
I had a stomach ulcer in 2nd grade, due to living with my narc mother and her being critical of me.
I was more serious than I was happy and playful, as a kid. I remember my brother and my Dad, both cheering me up by being playful with me. It worked, they made me laugh, smile and got me out of my head for a while. Xx
I’m glad you had some light relief at home Rebecca. That’s young to have a stomach ulcer but I can understand why!
Hi Jade,
You asked me if my brother turned his psychopathy on me?
He mostly was good to me. We were mostly there for each other , but he did like to taunt me at times, to make me angry. He liked watching me get pissed off at him. He would love when he taunted me so much that I’d hit him or scratch him. He got a big thrill out of my show of anger.
It was his way of relieving his boredom. I was the entertainment for him. I thought he was being an annoying older brother. I didn’t link the taunting to psychopathy until HG told me.
He did try to have sex with me, when I was 12, it’s why I was diagnosed with PTSD at 12….later on it was CPTSD. I didn’t understand why at the time, but I understand why he tried to hurt me now. HG explained it to me.
I don’t think my Dad ever fully got over that incident and it’s why my brother had to stay with my EDS / Navy kid friend and her parents for a while. Dad had to calm down and that took a while.
I still loved my brother, though my trust for him wasn’t the same after that. I know some people won’t understand my feelings, but I still wanted to protect my brother, like my mother told me to do.
I only told people my mother allowed me to tell, like the family counselor we went to afterwards, the doctor who examined me…though my mother got into an argument with the doctor about it….another story…
I kept the secret to protect him, to protect the family. They were more important. I held it in for years. His secret, their secret, my secret. Quiet. Xx
Hi Rebecca That’s a lot! Thanks for sharing about this. I understand the conflicted feelings though, I think when we care about someone and they hurt us, we can’t just switch off and of course there’s also good parts of the relationship and memories too. You understood your brother well I think even before HG told you he was a psychopath. ❤️
Hi Jade,
I knew my brother well and we talked about our mother sometimes, especially after her death.
He said to me once, “Remember when Dad would go away on Naval duties and when he came back, she would cry and tell him stories about how bad we were, but we didn’t do anything bad?”
I remember saying to him, “You remember that too?! I thought I was losing it! I thought I did some bad things and didn’t realize they were bad! Holy s##t! It wasn’t a memory loss, it was her making it all up! She lied to get us hit! Why?”
He said, “I don’t know, but Dad believed her and I told him she was lying. He never believed me. He believed her. They both were a##holes.”
He said it so calmly too. It was the first time I realized we had the same memories of getting hit and that our mother manipulated our Dad to punish us.
My brother was her Golden child and I didn’t understand why she would have her golden child punished along with her scapgoat child, me.
I understand it now. Thanks to HG, my mother had saw the Golden child, my brother, as painted black and he had to be punished too.
Just like how she sometimes treated me well because I was painted white at that time.
She painted us black, when Dad got home from Naval oversea duties, because it was her way of guaranteeing she got all the attention from Dad…because he’d be soothing her “tears” and too mad at us to even talk to us after the punishment.
I understand what she was doing now. I see it clearly. Thanks HG! Xx
Hi Rebecca, Thanks for sharing more. It’s interesting how helpful your brother was too in validating (and experiencing) the same thing as you did .. it is so powerful to know you didn’t imagine it and have that clarified with HG too. When my dad apologised to me when he was dying, it was a moment of.. holy shit.. I’m not crazy! There was something… 😅
Hi Jade,
My brother’s recollections were the same as mine and it was an important moment of realizing I wasn’t the bad kid my mother painted me to be. All that self doubt, self blame and self hate was lessened and it was a relief to know I didn’t imagine it! That it happened, that she isn’t nice, that her meaness at home was real…that she was wrong about me, about so much…her keeping me confused about myself made me easier to control for her. That’s why narcissist are drawn to self doubters, they instinctily know they can control us easier….some aware ones calculate how they can use that self doubt for their own benefit. Xx
Your Dad did that for you too. The moment of relief in knowing you’re not crazy, you didn’t imagine the abuse. I’m happy for you, that you had that moment of validation of the abuse and clarity of the truth. Xx
I had another clarity, validation moment with my maternal Uncle’s Wife. She told me, she wanted custody of my brother and I, to take us away from her abuse. My Uncle and her both wanted to take us from her. That was extremely validating to me and another important moment of clarity. She also told me that she could see my laughter and smile hid so much abuse.
She told me, my Uncle and her didn’t fight for custody of us because my maternal grandmother felt it would devastate my Dad to lose us. Xx
Thanks Rebecca, you’re right .. my dad did do that for me too. Validation is so important. Also you probably know this re OCD traits but OCD is often called “the doubting disease”. We’re perfect for narcs when we’re unsure and unsteady. But i’m so glad your brother could mirror to you what was really happening rather than your mom’s malignant projections. And so incredibly validating about your aunt and uncle. ❤️. What lovely people and obviously tried to read the situation from all angles.
Ps I wrote a comment but not sure if it glitched .. just to say glad you could talk here about the recent murders and I agree with Leigh about your husband looking for fuel. i hope you’re doing a bit better now. I’m like you and Arya too.. needing my brain engaged a lot. Crochet and drawing is helping me and I’m learning not to ruminate as much as a result..but sometimes that’s easier said than done still of course!! 😅
Hi Jade,
I’m finding ways of distrating myself , keep my mind off the chaos in the news and thanks for your support. Xx
My maternal Uncle and his wife are decent people trying to fix a bad situation. My Uncle knew his sister well and so did his wife. My mother and her knew each other as kids too. I asked her once, if my mother was mean as a kid too. She said, yes she was like that as a kid too…wanting all the attention, especially from her own Dad. I was grateful I know someone who knew her as a child. It confirmed yet more of how she acted.
I like to draw too. I studied Art, Art History and Psychology in college. I like to read too, but I mostly find myself needing to be outside in nature more now. It helps me to calm down more, while taking a brisk, long walk. Xx
Glad you’re finding ways to distract yourself, Rebecca. 👍 Good to get that further validation from your maternal uncle and wife about your mum as a kid. Leopards don’t change their spots!
Drawing is great isn’t it? I studied psychology too. I think these are often quite empathic interests. I know what you mean about getting into nature too.. good for the soul.
Hi Jade,
It’s funny how we all seem to have an interest in psychology. Art is another common interest. I’m been to the MET in NYC four times! 😄xx
Hi Rebecca, I think my interest in psychology will always be there but I do wonder if it’s narcissism and trying to understand the people in our lives, that has led us all down that particular track. I learnt a lot in my degree and work but these last few years and HGs work have got to the nub of things that I wanted answers to.
Hi Rebecca,
I strove to be more like my dad than my mom also. And I am naturally more like him also, so it wasn’t difficult. He was also a narc, like my mom, but he was the more pleasant of the two. He didn’t attach, it appeared except as obligation to my mother and siblings, and to me in an odd way, I was his golden child, which made me sad for my siblings. I believe this sadness also developed my empath type in some way. But I always afraid of losing my dad’s love. Now that he’s gone, the stress of that is no longer with me, which is nice as it always hung over me like a dark cloud. I would’ve happily moved away from it, most of my adult life when I went to their house, if he was home, it was 2 hours max that I could be there or he would get so unpleasant. This was confusing to me since during that time, my mom was the more pleasant, since she did not get cranky with our presence. Coming to understand narcissism has explained all of that for me. Nothing was genuine, except the crankiness. The prime aims were being met, manipulations were happening etc all along, but dynamics had changed with me living away from them. Anyway, thanks for sharing, it is interesting to see the similarities and differences in our lives with narcs.
Hi AV,
It is interesting how we picked our Dads to be the one to be like them. My mother picked my brother to be her golden child and he would manipulate her into protecting him from any consequences to his antics.
I used to think I was my Dad’s favorite, but I think I was the kid that caused him the less problems compared to my brother. He was usually fighting with my brother due to his antics.
Maybe I was my Dad’s favorite because he did do for me and like to come over to my house to visit me. My brother lived with him still and he would come over to get a break from my brother.
He did for my brother too, but it was more from obligation to him, than really wanting to do it for him.
I know my mother would tell me I was Dad’s favorite and she would say it with venom on her tongue. She would go on about how my poor brother wasn’t loved by my Dad and how abused he was by everyone. It made me feel guilty and shame. I felt bad for my Dad’s love. She was horrible mother at times like that. Xx
Hey A Victor:
I read what you said about being more like your dad than your mom. I got both but I am more like my father and genetically (dna tests and all) favor his family, RLS too. My father was a total empath. Kindness person I ever met, nonjudgmental, compassionate, accepting and like me terrible disciplinarian even with dogs which we both loved. There is a difference. He went to war in Vietnam and lost most of his friends. His go to song was Where have all the flowers gone?” Kingston trio. He was active in veteran affairs. Marched in every parade . Patriot plus a million. The guy who drove his car with American flags flying. Put them in his front yard. But…. He had a sadness. A deep sadness I could feel. He would sit in the corner of a room playing his guitar tearing up. My father was ruled by his heart. The world affected him but nothing did as deeply as Vietnam. I asked him what he did over there as he was a tanker. He replied “ built pools.” He would never discuss it. I wonder if he meant bombs as an adult . ???? Who knows what he experienced as a young empath in a war? He was trained. He went to Norwich, the armies military academy in Vermont. But can anyone really prepare you for war? If anything “ negative” effected me as a child is that the man I called my best friend. The man I ran to every time he came home to be thrown up in the air and caught, the man I so dearly loved and lost had a deep wound that no one could fill. Sadness lived there. Not always, not when baseball was on and his team was winning or a nice steak awaited him or a good night with my mom but sadness never left a part of him. I sensed it. He was a good father and I am like him in most ways but I got my mother in me too. It’s scary to think that while we try to protect ourselves from our children that warts and all… they could be like me and see it. I hope I did not inherit that sadness… heck I have not been to a horrific war. My son was bombed in Iraq. It shaped him too. But we are all shaped by something. We do our best. That’s all we can do. I am proud of my children it makes me proud to be their mother. But I am not perfect. I made mistakes. All of us do. I think the sum is better than our weaker parts so let’s go with that!
Hi Contagious,
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your last four sentences entirely.
My dad was a narc also, but the better of the two. I admired a lot about him though, and I have missed him sometimes since he passed. Sometimes not also. It depends on what brings him to mind.
Rebecca,
Isn’t it funny how our upbringings form us?
My dad once told me he loved me more than anything. It made me cry and when my mom asked why I was crying, I told her, I was sad that he didn’t live her and my siblings as much also. I could see her reaction. He rarely told me he loved me after that and I learned not to trust her. I learned not to cry. Not to allow myself to feel certain things anymore, feelings caused problems. I was about 6.
She worked very hard at coming between us kids and him, on the premise that he would hurt us, it was for our safety. But it was her that hurt us. He did too but in very different and less hurtful ways. The good news for me was that I picked up early on who she was and I learned to guard against her. She’s never been let in, even when she believes she has been. And she wants to be let in. So different from me with my daughter’s, they have their own lives, we enjoy each other, we share sometimes but neither side cares, we live our own lives. She lives hers through me, she takes credit, she assigns blame, she directs and controls and critiques, these things if I were to let her in. And even though I don’t, she still tries, in her mind, I am an extension of her. It’s all manipulations. It’s sick.
Hi AV,
Yes, our childhood and how we are treated then, does impact our lives. I was about 6 when I figured my mother wasn’t a nice person and I avoided her as much as I could, especially when I sensed she was itching to be mean.
She once told me when I was in my 20s, that as a little girl I didn’t like getting hugs from her and that I didn’t like her as a kid.
I asked her, what did I do to make you think that and how old was I?
She told me that I was about 3 or 4 and I would shy away from her or stiffen up when she hugged me.
She said, that I wasn’t a very openly affectionate child. Shd said, I was too uptight and ridgid.
Shd then said, it’s why she doesn’t hug me now.
I can see how she put the blame on me as a little girl, instead of seeing her abuse as the reason for my stiffness and shyness to affection.
She was a lot like your mother, AV, she expressed hurt over how I rejected “her affections” when I was a little girl. Her hurt was paramount and mine was dismissed and not even acknowledged as ever drawing breath.
The LMRVNarcs are the worse mothers, their cognitive empathy barely has a pulse and they are too busy focusing on their hurts to even provide the most basic of care to their children.
My brother and I were left unattended a lot, when we were home and not playing outside. She didn’t work, so where was she??
When I was a kid, I was happy when I was away from her, but I still wanted her love. I still wanted her love, even though I feared making her mad at me and I feared her hugs. I wasn’t sure if she was going to hug me, or hit me and I would stiffin around her and she knew it. She confirmed it. I didn’t even have to ask her of she knew. She told me while giving me a pity play.
“You didn’t love me as a child and I was good to you. ” Pity play from the LMRVNarc mother. It worked on me, I felt like s#@& over it.
I understand now that my stiffiness from her hugs wasn’t because I was cold, bad or not loving…it was because she was abusing me. I was withdrawal from her emotionally to protect myself from more abuse….and she blamed me for that. Unbelievable, crazy and what a manipulation to use on her own child! Unbelievable. Xx
HG,
I’m so grateful I can see this now. Thank you for having this blog so we can talk out our abuse by the narcs in our lives and for the understanding and healing we find here. The advice from you and others here really does make a difference. Thank you and all here for the help and understanding. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
You say, “I can see how she put the blame on me as a little girl, instead of seeing her abuse as the reason for my stiffness and shyness to affection.”
I remember when I confronted both my parents. They both blame shifted as well. It was incredibly frustrating when it first happened but now I know the truth. It was incredibly freeing when I saw their manipulations clearly. For me, it made it easier to move on.
Hi Leigh,
I wish I could have confronted my mother, but I remember our earlier conversation on the blog and you told me, if wasn’t worth the aggravation because your mom blamed everyone else and refused to see the truth. I believe my mother would have done the same and it would have been a disappointment and a waste of my time. Xx
She is a good healing tool for me because I can look back on her behaviors and see the manipulations there now and can reason more with my ACON mind…and that helps me. Seeing the truth and knowing it wasn’t me that caused the fights, the drama, the discontentment. …as she used to point the finger at me for all that was wrong in the household….no wonder I had an ulcer in second grade! Damn! She had everything being my fault and what wasn’t my fault, she would push on me to solve for her….like what was I supposed to do with the medical bills, mother?! I’M 10! WTF?! But, i was a kid. I couldn’t reason that, I wanted to help, but would stress over not being able to help her. She tormented me with adult problems….it’s no wonder I have anxiety issues, IBS, CPTSD…my mother was a kid mentally, I realize that now. She didn’t grow up mentally.
Realizing all this helps me and I’m so thankful to HG and you all here…for the knowledge I’ve gained here. So grateful I can see and understand. Xx
I can stop them easier and easier now. It relieves some of my anxiety. Thank you, HG and thank you all. Xx
Hi Rebecca and Leigh,
Me too. Mine acted as if they had no idea what I was talking about when I called them out on their behaviours. It does give clarity Leigh.
My mom still does this now and tells people I don’t see her enough but leaves out all the inconvenient bits lol. I called her out on it recently. I know it’ll make no difference but it needed to be said and my sister heard the interaction too which might give her some clarity in future. My mum was like a little kid and said “I didn’t say anything”.. ok, your friend who I never see came up to me out of the blue at dad’s funeral to say that stuff and try to pressurise me? 🙄
They put their stuff onto us. It was your mom’s stuff Rebecca, never yours. 😁
Hi Jade,
Have you considered going ANC (almost no contact) with your mother? Is that too big of a step for you at this point? I hope that doesn’t come off as judgmental. I’m still with my narc husband, so who am I to judge. But I thought it might be helpful for you.
I’ve cut off almost all contact with my mother. I haven’t seen her in over 5 years. I get one phone call a month and it lasts for 5 minutes. My mother is a victim narcissist and lives in a nursing home. She’s getting all of her needs met, even the prime aims. So she really doesn’t need me around, which works for me.
I was able to cut my mother off so deeply because I know she’s well taken care of. I know that might not be so easy for you. If its something you wanted to consider, maybe you can take baby steps.
Hi Rebecca,
I remember that conversation. I’m glad I was able to help. Sometimes we have to make our own closure and you’ve done just that. You can see her behaviors clearly now too.
You’re kicking booty!
Hi Leigh
I don’t mind you saying that, I appreciate your input. I actually think I’m ANC (I hadn’t heard that term before) on the whole but need to drop the rope with my mum again (like you with your mom).. my dad died this year and I’m glad I said goodbye but before that I hadn’t seen both of them in three years I think. Both were emotionally immature at least but I felt closer and less manipulation from him (though still some). He apologised for not being a better dad before he died and I said we were all good.
I have seen her four times this year including the funeral and twice with him before he died. She is taken care of and all my other siblings don’t/ don’t want to admit it.
I realised coming here has been a way to process about her again which is good but I also know I need to let go again. I’m good, she’s good in her own little world lol. Shes realising there’s no going back with me. I appear soft but I’m immovable when I need to be and she knows that now.
Thanks for what you said though. I’m 50 soon and realise I need to live for me now.. I think letting go of all the shitty past relationships including this one is what’s next. It’s all too easy to get pulled back into thinking about them, whilst they’re off living their best live (in a narcy, prime aims way lol)! Thanks for the thoughtful kick up the butt! I appreciate it.
I gathered you had a narcissist hubby. I get it.. no judgement. We all know what it’s like, don’t we? ♥️ Is your one of the living but kick ass empaths I’m learning from. You got this too. ✊
Sorry for the gobbledegook at the end of my last message Leigh. Writing too fast ..I meant to say..
Ps you’re one of the loving but kick ass empaths I’m learning from here. You got this too ✊
Hi Leigh,
“You’re kicking booty”
That made me laugh, Leigh! Xx I’m definitely spotting the behaviors from my memories of mother and some other family members. I’ve spotted them in my current life too. It does make me feel I accomplished another small victory! Win, win for us! Xx
Jade,
Awww, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it.
I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your father this past year. Its nice that he apologized before he passed. It makes his transition a more peaceful one for him but also now you can have peace as well. I think that was a wonderful gift he gave you.
Hi Jade and Leigh,
Before my mother died, I reduced my time with her. Often I would call her, instead of going over and I called her maybe a couple times a month. I had a hard time completely cutting her off because I didn’t want to hurt my Dad’s feelings…I would say the last five years of her life I reduced my exposure to her manipulations and behaviors. I got tired of her playing mind games. I knew, at the time, that she played mind games, but I didn’t know why and about the whole dynamic my family had together.
Reducing my time with her gave me some relief at the time, though she did whine to my in-laws how much I neglected her, eventhough she had a visiting nurse, my Dad and my brother still living with her at the time. I was seeking a break and some peace. Xx
Thanks Leigh. You hit the nail on the head. 💯 I “talk” with him most days now and dream about him a lot too. I’m sad he’s gone but if feels like it relationship is evolving. ❤️🩹
You did the right thing Rebecca. It sounds similar to my situation. There’s no winning is there lol but I think when you can reduce contact as you did that’s helpful.
Hi Rebecca & Jade,
I got my monthly phone call from my mother last night. She asked me to visit. I quickly changed the subject.
Hi Jade,
I’m sorry you lost your Dad earlier this year. 💔
If I’m understanding your comment correctly, you are dreaming about him and “talking ” to him in your lucid dreams?
If I’m right in what I comprehended from your comment…I did that with my maternal grandmother, years after she died, but not long after I lost my Dad and was grieving him.
Lucid dreams with loved ones are so meaningful and they help with easing the heartbreak you’re going through. Xx
I hope they continue to help you. Xx
Hi Leigh,
Good job with the monthly phonecall! ✊ I find changing the subjects the best way too.. lol.
Hi Rebecca,
Thank you re my dad. I’d come to terms with so much about my parents before he died but obviously it still hits hard especially as I found him the easier of the two and I do love them both.
His apology was so helpful, – I feel like it changed my whole relationship to him and he died a week later but our relationship feels like it’s evolving. The dreams are semi lucid. I was lost in a dream recently and asked for his guidance/protection which materialised in the dream. I’m glad you found a similar link with your grandmother. ❤️🩹 I’m finding it very healing and ask him for guidance in my dreams each night now.
Hi Leigh,
Awesome job on changing the subject and not giving in! Xx
A Victor and Jade:
Interesting. Maybe you are on to something in empath formation even classes or cadres???? but for me….there were what I called a plethora of “ uber empaths”. I wrote before about my kind, giving, humble, religious, near Saint Aunts and what I found is that I was in awe and almost felt guilty in their wake. So careful to be approved by them because that would mean a lot!!!. They were so virtuous. Never complained, never gossiped, always giving…working ( large families), only once did I hear one raise her voice ( to scold a child for hitting another sibling child), loving, nonjudgmental, smart but more apt to listen but when they spoke… very bright, all highly educated. All of their children ( many children…(11…9… 7… 5, my dad had only 3) college grads plus. I once said to my brother being with them is like entering church where I am awed by the beauty but I feel so humbled for my sin. He laughed and said… “yeah their wide blue eyes with a twinkle and big smiles, I can see that but NOT their children” ( and he gave examples of some pretty wild behavior). Funny… my brother did not see my Aunts as anything special but I did. My father was my hero. I was a Daddy’s girl all the way. He was so kind like his sisters. Folk music , Vietnam Vet, and mechanical engineer by trade. So when I was young, it was God and my Aunts that influenced me. My mother is a solid normal classy highly educated and successful lady, wealthy, smartest woman I know, a good mom, very practical and logical. I love her too. But I didn’t want to be like her, the same way I was attracted to being like my Aunts. It could be my Faith, she is not as religious as them. ??? My dad was nothing but empathy and heart. He never got over Vietnam. Marched in every parade, active with vets. Kingston Trio “ where have all the flowers gone.” One of his music staples. I actually grew up with parties where people did Kumba Yah My Lord Kumba Ya lol. So, I feel I was heavily formed by my elders. I looked at my Aunts as they were like Saints to me, wanting to be like them, wanting to be pure of heart, feeling I fell short but they were my mentors. A goal! I had other influences but I wonder if being surrounded by empaths is another way to form into empathy. Or maybe the empathy bar was set so high…???? I am known as the adventurous kid, my 97 Aunt told my now ex husband, I was the brave one, I am known around the cousins as the only one who would and did jump down the three level laundry shoot and she opened it to find little me in her laundry lol ( My older cousins put me up to it but I never told, no snitch am I!)
Finally: genes and perception. How children can have the same family , family dynamics and come out so different!
Look at what my brother said, he is an atheist and my Aunts and I are devout absolute believers… I found them fascinating. He did not. He laughed at this. We saw them differently, not bad but different.
This is so interesting Contagious! It will be interesting to learn if HG creates something about empath formation. I had an impression trauma was often involved but in your case it seems the opposite, something to aspire to. For me, religion was something my family did as a facade. Go to church, look pious and then gossip about other people outside the church. I said this once to my Kom5and she looked at me blankly. I don’t really remember anyone close just I looked up to in the way you describe which makes me think I’m stronger on the nature side than nurture, empath wise… 🤔 I always had a sense of spirituality though and connection, and that hasn’t gone away.
Hi Jade: thank you for sharing too. I learn so much from others experiences. Again it’s funny… my father’s side were devout. My favorite Aunt went twice a week and everyone were church goers. Never discussed or preached religion! My mother’s side were Protestant and non churchgoers but my mother took us when little. Religion was never discussed or preached. My father’s music had lots of Jesus in it and the groups he joined like Up with the people were Christian hippy types who sat Indian style on the floor. He played in Jesus Christ Superstar so the artistic influence was pronounced. But oddly, it was 100% me. I was the most interested, the most religious. I would ask my friends to take me to their churches at a young age and I lived down the street from a nunnery…um not for me. I had an existential crisis at 7. I remember it well as by a Holly tree and felt faint thinking about the meaning of life. Eternity scared me, still kind of does and I yearned passionately to learn all I could. I loved church except the stories of the martyrs, saints and apostles and how they died. I admired their conviction but was horrified at how they died. Nope, all my conviction comes from within and what I witnessed not by word but by action in my family. I cannot point to anyone except via introduction by having them take me and music and art. I wanted to go and if they didn’t I found a friend and went to whatever church they went. The born agains were interesting:) . When I got older I attended and studied and accepted all religions in the good people I met. Although Jesus is my light, I respect all. I looked at overlaps… Jews for Jesus. Buddhist Christians. I read Kahil Gibran at 12. I was born I think this way as lady Gaga would say. If there was instability it was not in parenting but my parents wed young age 17 and a war was on, my dad did tours, and they were married until my dad died at 35. They loved each other a lot but fought. He was a salt of the earth meat and potatoes, baseball and football lover and my mother was brilliant went back to school at 38 and graduated top of her class in accounting and got a cpa and stock brokers license and became a top personal lender to pharma, doctors etc… a real dynamo. She wanted country clubs and golfing. He wanted pizza and a stay at home wife. She was very New England. He was very European, Dutch/danish parents. I always sided with my father inside. Who knows? No one’s childhood is perfect. I can’t complain but nature to me is Art. If you believe in God, he is the greatest artist of all. I love the arts. I was an actress, am a writer and mixed media artist by HOBBY , I cannot sing and never had the patience to learn a musical instrument but I love music. I grew up with it. I love nature. My mother says I was “ an interesting child” and I was tested gifted but my parents wanted me in a regular school with regular kids. So they passed. I am a middle class American so whooey to that but I am clueless except what I learned from HG about Co-D ………why I was majority contagian? I consulted HG day one and in an instant he said so even before I took the test. But when I read his articles or watch his videos it resonates. My cadres too??? I get carrier. Super is a minority as is geyser. I can see it in certain situations only. Martyr I don’t quite get but all my heroes are classical martyrs starting with Christ and I do take on odd cases when I shouldn’t like I am suing my HOA for 10 million in a civil rights action in Compton over their despicable treatment of a vendor. I am a busy woman doing it on contingency. Sometimes I feel this tug, this call, this need to do the right thing for another even if it hurts me. My HOA has already come after me. One is a bigot half cocked and proven violent. Not the first time I faced this sort… the darkness. Who knows what will happen to me? But this again is not within my family…it’s me. No one else. All me. But one has to wonder… dna…. Maybe an empath with dna is triggered like a narc but by other empaths. I am truly clueless but I don’t think trauma exists in all cases. My trauma came marrying a narc for 12 years. It’s behind me. I defer to HG on his system. We know narcs origin but not empaths…..
It does sound like you were born an empath (and with faith, Contagious)! The pull to do the right thing sounds strong in you. I have that too but on a smaller playing field than you describe with the causes you’re fighting.
It’s funny isn’t it? In a different way to you, I have no idea how I came from my parents lol. I think sometimes it is just nature. ❤️
Hi Contagious,
I get it about the aunts! I had more but three who were influential, one on each side by blood and one on my mom’s side by marriage, I loved them all and was influenced by them more than they knew, I’m sure. I saw similar things to what you describe. Due to moving a lot as a child, I didn’t know them personally much until I was in my teens and older. But enough to be in awe of them! They were, and are, not perfect human beings but in my eyes, they could do no wrong. They were kind and loving and generous.
I also did not go to church until I was 9. Our house was devoid of God to that point. Once we went, I was quickly all in. I needed something to hold onto.
My thinking about my own empath creation begins prior to these things though. And I’m positive that at least half does come from the genes. I remember so often an utter rejection that, no mom, I will never be like you, yuck. And, no mom, I do not like plaid and I do not have to just because you do. And, no mom, this is not the best haircut for me, just because you believe it is. And on it went, touching virtually everything in my young life. My rejection was not voiced, except for the plaid haha, these things were internal, in me, because I knew that to say them would bring problems. But I did not want, who I was he despite her. I wonder if the things said to me had been in question from, would it have been the same? What I was fighting, unknowingly, was being an extension of this very overwhelming person. How I knew this, and at a very young age, how I knew she was unsafe to allow in, I do not know. But we were all her little extensions until we could get away. We didn’t have a choice.
I also remember as a very small child being left on my own a lot, not having any connection with people. And I remember enjoying that, maybe not so much that I was an introvert, though I am strongly introverted now, rather it was probably preferable to what else there could be. Did this affect my introversion? Who knows. I am convinced that realizing I’d not learned certain social skills, such as small talk, I rejected my mother’s version as purely gossip, I have no interest in that, I believe I became more introverted than I might have been. But not afraid, never that, just walking alone through my life.
Moving many times as a child, I did develop skills to interact with new people, I became quite comfortable with who I am and was not inclined to work for relationships, but was also accepted by my teachers and peers. I did not strive for attachment whatsoever, at school or at home, I was content to be alone. It was peaceful. One time, in second grade, I’d built a nice friendship, we moved, I cried, it didn’t happen again. Only surface friendships after that.
I did love my siblings but even with them, did not feel an attachment. To me, it was expected that we’d all grow up and live our lives, perhaps sometimes coming into contact with each other but largely independent. This is how my parents had lived for my early years. This is so different from many family’s, including my own children. They all live within an hour of each other and me and we all see each other frequently. It is such a new, the last 11 years or so, and wonderful thing in my life! I’ve learned so much from my children, things I should’ve learned from my parents, about life, love, attachment etc. But I don’t hold it against them either, they had their own struggles growing up and became what they became, in my mind a fate far worse than mine.
Anyway, I am excited to learn more about the development of various types of empaths also, if HG decides to tell us about it someday. Thank you for your comment Contagious, it was fun for me to read!
I love the clarity of thought and independence you had/have A Victor!
Hi AV and Contagious,
When Contagious talked about her aunts, I was reminded of the movie, PRACTICAL MAGIC and how kind, loving and warm the aunts were, even though they had a different religious belief, the warmth and light was there. I got the feel of your aunts through your words. Your memories made me smile, how special they were to you. Xx
I agree, Rebecca – your aunt’s sound amazing Contagious! A lot of love comes through your description of them. ❤️
Dear A Victor: thank you for sharing. Sounds like you have a Hoover mom, not a Tiger mom. I always have felt their need for control comes from insecurities within. Like… if my child doesn’t wear plaid, or have a proper haircut, I am not doing my job and I worry so at getting it right. Or it could be a narc mom with coercive control needs. I leave that analysis to HG. My mother was New England proper a total wasp who loved Jaqueline Kennedy and she drilled in me manners, what it was to be a “ lady”. Ladies don’t sit like that, ladies have good posture, ladies don’t put their elbows on the table lol. I famously in my family in third grade once said to her “ I don’t want to be a lady! I want to be a lawyer!” lol how funny is that? I was a cheeky little thing.
And I appreciate your comment they had their own struggles…. My mother’s father was an abusive narc. Horrible to my beloved grandmother. She was Irish and English and she was this amazing storyteller. He would constantly scream “ shut up!” When I graduated with honors at law school, family called and sent presents, he said “ Don’t break your arm patting your back. And told me his brother went to Harvard Law.” Charming he was. I hated him I think since 3. Being a typical contagian, I would stay outside in nature as much as I could then to be in his presence. He was horrible to his wife and my father who was too kind to stand up to him. My father was respectful and kind to a man who did not deserve it but in time I see that my father was being a man, and my grandfather a weak broken child. Who knows what his life was like? The chains and cycles of abuse are hard to break….
Contagious,
I have a narcissist mom, HG confirmed, long ago. She hoovers all right, but her concern that I wear plaid or have a certain haircut or anything else was manipulations to meet her prime aims, nothing more.
Thanks Jade. I am thankful for it also.
Hi all,
This is fascinating to me that we all view our mothers in a similar way. I too, knew at an early age that I did not want to be like my mother. Instead I emulated my father. Unfortunately my father was a narcissist too.
I hated the way she treated my disabled brother though and I was determined to treat my children with love and respect.
Jade,
I’m glad you found narcsite and found the validation you needed. It really is wonderful to have validation and clarity!
Thanks Leigh 🙂 I appreciate that. The commonalities are weird aren’t they?
Whoop whoop! Happy 10th Blogiversary, Mr. Tudor! Thank you for giving me the gift of clarity!
Thank you.
Dear HG,
I was wondering if you’ll be making a version of the Narc Detector for Psychopathy, so we can find out the School and Cadre of Psychopaths in our lives?
Thank you for your replies and time. Xx
The detector already advises if psychopathy or psychopathic traits are detected.
Dear HG,
I know because my brother came back Psychopath when I did the NDC on him, but what I meant was a NDC that includes the School and Cadre of the Psychopath. I’m sorry for the confusion there. Xx
Hello HG,
why a narc would continue to use a -benign- direct manipulation (first method) to assert control over a friend who now hates him, treats him with indifference, and agrees to communicate with him only for work purposes (company email)…?
He switched to the second method after many weeks, when he discovered that I had blocked him on social media and closed all other communications.
What is the benign direct assertion of control that the narcissist is using?
Friendly smile, very gentle approach, joking.
He was behaving like if he had done nothing wrong…. Like if we could be friends exactly like in the past.
Phisical touch (I was disgusted)
In many instances I didn’t responded to him.
He was clearly hurted/anger but in 10-15 seconds the gentle facade was in function again.
He subtly provoked me sometimes about my gf (she cheated me with him and later they flirted in front of me) but always with an angelic face.
His narcissism determined that this was the most appropriate method to deploy to achieve the Prime Aims.
Thank you.
I don’t understand if I wounded him and the extensive of the wounding…
Sometimes I “dream” a video made by you with my face and his face titled “how a standard empath can defeat an upper mid range narcissist”. lol
Go to the Knowledge Vault and obtain
1. The Three Interactions With The Narcissist ; and
2. Understand Wounding
Mr. Tudor,
This video had a profound impact on me. I feel like just saying thank you isn’t enough. I loved this message and it was so necessary to hear!
Thank you so much!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LIhderb8qxQ
You’re welcome.
Hi TS,
I had to start a new thread because I was searching for a reply button for a year and a day & got tired. So I just decided to start a new thread instead, lol.
I wanted to respond to this comment that you made:
“I very rarely ask for help for example, I never ask for it directly, but if I’m giving, I’m supporting and you don’t step up when needed, it’s an instant switch and I’m done. You could argue that’s unfair, I didn’t specifically ask for anything, I’d say then you clearly weren’t paying attention.”
For context, I know you were speaking specifically about why you ended your narc relationships, but I still wanted to offer my two cents.
I was very similar. I believed that I didn’t need to share my expectations of people, they should just know them. I’m intuitive and I try to live up to people’s expectations of me. Why can’t they do the same? And when they didn’t, I made a mental note. Its flawed logic though.
There’s two issues I see. The first issue is that I can very well see a narcissist seeing you in distress and stepping up to the plate without being asked. As you know, I have a narc daughter and an empath daughter. Its my narc daughter that steps into action first and most often. She’s LMR Somatic but she has a huge streak of overwhelming angel in her. When my brother was dying, she offered to come sit with me. Narcs are incredibly intuitive too. She knew I was in pain. But knowing she’s a narc, her offer was for her, not for me.
The second thing is that a normal or an empath might be so consumed with what’s going on in their own lives, they might not see the cues. I have a dear friend who is an empath. I know she’s there for me. But she has a very full life and I’ve learned that I can’t just assume she knows what’s going on with me. I’ve learned that I have to swallow my pride and I have to talk about it. And you know what I realized, its liberating and wonderful. I no longer have to hold onto the feeling that someone let me down and that they didn’t even try.
The best thing about it all is that once I’ve told you what I needed, if you continue to be unsupportive or even detrimental, the line is drawn much quicker now. I’ll give you another for instance. My ex best friend knows about my situation with my narc husband. Yet, she continued to ask me to invite him out with us even though she knows I don’t want to spend time with him. That was the catalyst of what I drew the line with her. Now I’ve asked you and you’re still doing it, you’re done.
I think my two cents was a lot more than two cents, lol. I hope it was ok to share my thoughts.
Really interesting TS and Leigh, I see a lot of myself in what you’ve both shared. Also interesting about narcs being intuitive, I agree and also what cane up for me was how we decipher between narcissistic people and a narcissist with a lot of overwhelming angel … 🤔
Hi Jade,
It can be incredibly difficult to spot the difference between an empath and an overwhelming angel. Cognitive empathy often can look like genuine empathy. Often times I find it difficult to discern the difference. I usually err on the side of caution.
I try to pay attention to how someone reacts. Narcissists are highly sensitive people because of their need for control. I often ask myself, did I just threaten their control? Are they trying to nullify that threat to control?
I also have a couple of narcs in my life and I study them quite a bit.
Thanks Leigh. It can be very subtle can’t it? My nmom seemed caring till I cottoned on (five years ago). She LOVES talking about other people’s illnesses in a seemingly sympathetic way but lacks emotional empathy.. it’s all gossip and currency unfortunately (oh, and deaths are a big favourite!)
Once you know, it’s so clear. She is incredibly insensitive and basically in denial about my own illness as it’s inconvenient to her and related to that, I’ve set boundaries around how much I see her (not much) as a result, which of course she hates. Like you, I study the ones left in my life, it’s interesting. 🤔
Hi Jade,
I have a narc mother too. She’s s victim narcissist. The lowest of the low. She has no overwhelming angel. Instead she was neglectful. At an early age i had to figure out how to take care of myself.
Yes, once you know, it is so clear and that clarity is absolutely beautiful.
I’m almost no contact with my mom too. I haven’t seen her since Covid and we only talk once a month for 5 minutes. Its glorious!
Hi Jade,
Our mom’s sound quite similar. Really so similar. I could’ve written your comment. I hope you are doing better soon and that being mostly away from her is helpful.
Hi Leigh,
What I find helpful in spotting the narcs in my life is when their likes and dislikes change with the wind and their beliefs aren’t solid or genuine. Like how LMRSNarc had tatoos of the Christian faith symbolisms, but didn’t believe in God. How he had Native American tatoos and wasn’t Native American, his tatoos were part of his facade and game to get attention from others. Once he spilled up and said he didn’t believe in God, and when later I found out he wasn’t even Native American….he lost a lot of my respect and awe. I saw behind the mask and my admiration died, but my anger grew. If it wasn’t for HG, I would have gone the path of revenge and kept the ball rolling with LMRSNarc enjoying every bit of my negative fuel thrown at him. Thankfully, I just thought, he’s not worth the effort to spit on. Thanks HG! Xx❤️❤️
Hi Rebecca,
It’s interesting that you brought up religious symbols. My daughter has a rosary and a cross hanging from her rear view mirror in her car. I didn’t incorporate religion in my children’s upbringing. However my husband’s family is Catholic and some of them do practice the religion. My daughter has not done any of her sacraments and doesn’t want to either. It’s just easier for her acquire the trait as her own without doing any pf the work. Another indicator. Thank you for that!
I am sorry Leigh but really glad you’re away and feeling good! It’s so hard.
A. Victor I am sorry you have the same story with your mom but it does help to share, doesn’t it?
I mostly feel (VERY BOUNDARIED lol) compassion for her, the more I learn but seeing her last week and having everyone else’s illnesses paraded in front of me by her without even asking how I’m doing has, let’s say, slightly eroded the compassion at the moment! Ha.
Relating to Rebecca’s comment, my mom is “very religious” but it’s all in name unfortunately. She is also a nurse and a lot of people think she’s the bee’s knees. 😅
Hi Jade,
Please don’t feel bad for me. I’m ok. I came to terms with what my mother is years ago. I’ve drawn the line and I’m pleased she’s out of my life. I don’t have compassion for her. But I do feel a bit of gratitude for her. I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for her. But its not enough to restore my relationship with her. That ship has sailed. Your description of your compassion for your mother is exactly how I would describe my gratitude for my mother. Boundaried!
Jade,
It does help to share. My mother is also very “religious”, she’s even her pastor’s secretary, and she has quite a nice facade with all those who matter to her in that circle. But I could be wrong, I thought the same was true in my extended family, cousins mainly, but I’ve learned more recently that at least some of them recognize enough to know they would not want her to be their mother. This surprised me. I’m 99% certain she thinks she has them all buffaloed though. Which makes me laugh a little. 🙂
I’m glad Leigh. I think gratitude can be understandable as you said, for being here but it wouldn’t be logical to restore the relationship from what you’ve said. BOUNDARIES are our friend, for sure! The learning curve for me has definitely to use logic more, rather than just emotions.
A Victor – I agree. Ooh nice to get that feedback from your cousin’s and good to laugh a little! There isn’t always a lot to laugh about usually when dealing with narcissist parents! 😅
Hi Leigh, Jade and AV,
Leigh, you mentioned your daughter hanging the rosary from her car’s rearview mirror and not practicing the faith. Narcs will use religion to con people into believing they are good, trustworthy people. HG even has an article about the religious narc. My LMRVN mother would use the church goers sympathy to get what she wanted from them; fuel, hand outs, free labor around her house, errands done for her etc. Xx
I have to tell you all that my psychopath brother used religion to get his way too. He would do errands for the nuns, pretend to want to help, but then get goods and favors from them, cash, food and even stayed over in the priest quarters a few times. He had them convinced he was helpful and kind, meanwhile he was getting what he wanted from them. He turned on the charm, especially with the young kids that would visit. I hope none of them were harmed. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Yes, my daughter likes to acquire traits and use them to her advantage quite often. My father is from South America and she likes to use that too. Meanwhile I didn’t incorporate any Hispanic traditions in my household. She’ll use whatever she can get.
I saw your message about your workplace narc moving away. Be careful. My workplace narc moved out of state too but every once in awhile he pops back up. Thankfully, its been a while since the last time the roach crawled out of the network. But I don’t let my guard down. He always finds new and ingenious ways to pop out.
Hi Leigh,
Thanks for the heads up about the workplace narc, but I really don’t think I’ll seeing him around. I blocked him on social media, my phone and he’s been banned from coming around me at work.
I reported him a while ago at work and he stayed away from me. It’s been quiet on the hoover side from him.
I know HG has told us, a hoover can happen even 10 years later, or more. I know it’s true. My ex husband hoovered me back in 2021 and we divorced in 2000.
I’m alert to the possibility of a hoover from LMRSnarc from work and I’m prepared. Part of me would love a confrontation with him, but I know that’s my ET and addiction talking….but, it would be so satisfying….xx
Hi Rebecca,
My workplace narc moved 1200 miles away 3 years ago and that didn’t stop him. Thankfully, its been awhile since something has happened but he has left presents on my car and sent flowers to my office. In January my company moved its office so I’m hoping that will be a deterrent for him. But I always keep my guard up because he does have family here and at any time, he could just pop up out of nowhere. One Christmas Eve, I was in the super market and he was walking down the aisle right towards me. I walked right past him. But it was still unnerving. That’s why I suggested to just be careful. You just never know with them.
Hi Leigh,
I’m hoping not to see LMRSN again. I haven’t seen him since 2021. I think he’s busy chasing his next disaster and long forgot about me. It’s what I’m hoping anyway…out of sight, out of mind…and hopefully he stays out of State.
My ex-husband (UL Type B Elite) has been silent since 2021. He used to hoover me every few years on Facebook and the phone. I’d block him on both, every time he got a new number or fb account.
He has a criminal record and was on probation back in 2021. Whatever he’s doing now, I hope it’s far from me. Xx
Hi Leigh,
I hope it’s okay to add, an empath will recognize and respect boundaries, a narc won’t. My mom has overwhelming angel characteristics, this is the biggest area that I notice it coming out, lack of respect for my boundaries. She’ll also turn it to being about her if I reject her “help”, instead of just saying okay, as an empath would be more likely to do. This is where she will then usually turn it into a pity party for herself.
Thanks Rebecca and A Victor,
Yep to both of those! No real moral compass or consistency and boundaries and making it about themselves. I agree completely. I often think these things are about trying to see the intention. A narcissist may do exactly the same nice thing as a non-narc but as discussed, what’s in it fir them etc.. it takes a while to unravel, doesn’t it?
Do you see a difference in emotional immaturity and narcissists or is it basically the same thing?
I have someone else in my family with fairly high narcissistic traits who isn’t an N (I’m pretty sure) which is why I asked about the overwhelming angel point. They have stepped up a lot in my eyes recently and respect boundaries, exhibit empathy etc and it feels like getting to know them better rather than the surface behaviours (after many years). Just, as we rightly are.. being cautious. 🥷
AV,
You’re always welcome to comment! Yes, thats very true with the overwhelming angel. They think they know what’s best for you and they impose their will on you. That’s not caring. Thats a lack of boundary recognition. It’s always helpful to have those reminders.
Jade,
I have thought for many years that my mother was stunted at about she three, in many ways. Other ways, older, but I think it started at about that age for her. Emotional immaturity, and immaturity in other areas also, is not necessarily a narcissist but all the narcs I’ve known in real life have been stunted. The difference between them and non narcs, in this area of being stunted, is that non narcs can and will usually grow, once they recognize that they have room for it. I have grown in this way, and other people, were always learning. Narcs only grow in their ability to use what they learn, they don’t actually mature, and they can’t see that they are stunted.
You hit it on the head, it’s all about the motivator, non narcs motivation will be different, usually, they can seek to manipulate but with narcs, they’re always seeking to manipulate when interacting with another person. Non narcs don’t seek the prime aims, narcs always are. If you can determine this, you can watch for more indicators also, or a lack of them, and over time, make a determination. I don’t honestly give most people much time, if I see narc indicators, unless I don’t have another choice, I about the person.
Thank you Leigh!
Hi Jade,
I had written another reply to you here, I think I accidentally cancelled it though. I’ll try to rewrite it, if two come through, that’s why.
I have thought for years that my mom was stunted emotionally at about age three. Older for some other types of maturity but I think that’s where it started for her. It really is sad.
All the narcs I have known have been stunted but not all stunted people are narcs. Non narcs can usually recognize they have an area that needs work and do the work if their so inclined. Narcissists can’t recognize they need work and even if they could, I don’t think their narcissism would allow any real change/growth. They just refine their options for seeking the prime aims, if anything.
I was very stunted when I arrived here, less so now largely thanks to being here, so I know non narcs can change firsthand. The narcs in my life couldn’t see it even if it was stated right to them, even by a professional.
Also, you are exactly right about the motivator being what to watch for. If you can determine that, you are ahead of the game and can make decisions earlier regarding the person. Motivations are not always clear but with narcs it’s all about the prime aims.
Your other comment was useful too A Victor – thanks. I was stunted too and have done (and keep 😅) working on myself. I’m one of those weird people that kind of enjoys it even though it’s not always pretty.
Yeh, I’d say my mom is around 5 yo in many areas and there’s been certain situations where that’s been so clear. I’m still learning more about emotional immaturity in relation to all this too which ties into the stunted-ness. I guess as you say, if someone takes the opportunity to change it gives you an insight into whether narcissism is also part of the picture of not.
Hi AV, Leigh and Jade,
LMRSNarc was a vegan, but he let it slip 2 times that he had no empathy for animals. The first, and I made a mental note of his reaction to my dog because I was trying to figure out what was off about him, he didn’t find my dog worth engaging with. He igbored my dog and my dog ignored him. My dog usually loves people, he didn’t want anything to do with LMRSN. (Redflag for me)
Second time I figured out his vegan facade was a facade was when I told him about my neighbor’s pet pig and he said, and I quote, “Why would anyone have a pet pig? They’re just bacon, not a pet.”
I looked at him in shock! I said to him, “What? Where is your empathy for the pig?!”
He looked at me and smiled, and then he quickly walked away from me. I was left watching him leave with this dumbfounded feeling coursing their my mind. Left with, WTF?…going through my mind….how is he caring when he said that?? This was before I found HG’s work and I was confused about his illogical behaviors. They stood out to me and didn’t make sense.
I noticed his behaviors because i saw similar behaviors from my LMRVNarc mother growing up. She would wear masks around certain people and wasn’t consistant in her likes or dislikes, or opinions and jidgements. Black and white thinking in another strong indicator.
I had good news, regarding LMrSNarc, he has now left the State I live in and moved half way across the country! Another one bites the dust! Yay! Xx
Rebecca,
Thank you for sharing, those types of stories have been all to present in my life also. I am glad to hear he’s far from you now!
Hi AV,
Thank you and I’m glad he’s moved out of the State and I hope he stays gone! It feels good not to worry about running into him around town. Xx
I think you’re right, A Victor.. it’s possible to see the age they’re stuck at in the main. It’s weird when it’s a parent isn’t it? Being interested in growth is definitely a good indicator of non narcs and though they may not like feedback, not being defensive or unaccountable generally.
Yeh, I saw my mom recently for the first time in a long time and for surface appearances everything was fine but she was “doing her thing” telling me all about other people’s illnesses and not once asking about my chronic pain condition (which if not “caused” directly by her behaviour is related I believe) do gaslighting really, I’ve called her out on this before. I dealt with it at the end though and about some lies she’s been spreading – I felt proud of myself for saying my bit especially as another family member was there and I was clear and firm but not aggressive. I don’t give most people much time now either, I find there’s so much narcissistic behaviour out there even if not full narcissism but like you, red flags are a big no-no. The good thing is I’m also getting better at spotting the empaths and normals which is a bonus.
Hi Jade,
It is very odd when one realizes their parent is still a child in many ways.
I don’t offer suggestions to people I see as non narcs, unless asked. I will do it intentionally to those I’m wondering about, at times, to see what the reaction is. My mother would literally stare at me without understanding if I suggested to her that she was stunted at age 3. Then, if it sunk in, she might get angry and shout at me. But it would take time because she cannot see it, it’s too far from her perception and her delusion is too great. My dad would’ve been the same.
I actually did say it to my ex, years before I knew about narcissism, his reaction was the same, he couldn’t get it. No embarrassment or denial, just a blank stare.
A non narc would likely get it and be hurt and embarrassed by it being pointed out, and have a reaction of some kind. I say this based on my personal experience/feeling of how I would respond, nothing more. I knew I was lacking but had no idea why or what to do about it until I got here. This is where I learned all of that.
I’m a better person now and I also have a far better life now. So grateful for this blog, HG, my consults with him, the empaths who helped me early on, and for quite some time also. I am glad for you to have found this place also.
Rebecca,
Once good things about my move 8 years ago was that I got out of the town where the Fireman lived. I no longer had to worry about him popping up at every turn. My daughter lives in my old house now and every time I visit her, I think about him being around some place! It’s quite stressful. I’m glad you no longer have to think about that.
Hey Jade, sorry for another comment but I forgot to say a couple things.
My siblings left decades ago, have seen my parents only once or twice in 30 years, my mother was the same, began her thing immediately, it is who she is, so she can’t not. My dad had Alzheimer’s when my sister saw him, so he was very different from that. My brother came to his funeral, left half way through. Neither of them will answer her phone calls. To my knowledge neither have knowledge of narcissism, they just recognized that nothing would improve and bailed. I wanted to also but due to my ex, I didn’t. Anyway, all that to say, on the surface everything can look fine to those who don’t know the history. For those who do know the history though, it’s often a very different experience. I’m glad you felt better saying what you said, it likely didn’t make a lot of difference with her but hopefully the third person got some clarity from it.
I think I know what you mean A Victor. I’ve seen that stare in other circumstances I think. Complete incomprehension. Watching the HGs “other ones wife series” on YT has helped me too. It’s hard to imagine not being able to see yourself or your actions that much. I imagine it’s like not having a rear view mirror when driving. You can’t see what you’re doing or have done, cause all kinds of chaos but think someone else has done it (if an unaware N).
It sounds like you’ve come a long way. 👌 I think I have too in five years. It’s been a rollercoaster but thankful for good help, like you, from HG.
PS I was going to ask for “shielding” advice if you or another reader has some? I’ve read about it but am sporadic and really should have implemented it last week when seeing my mom as still recovering.
Thanks A Victor. No problem, it’s good chatting with you. 😊
Absolutely agree re the surface level. And when you know, there’s no unknowing. 😅 Interesting that your siblings got that there’s no chance of change, that’s it really isn’t it, even without knowing about narcissism.
Yeh I don’t expect her to get what I said at all (she’s not after 100 tunes) but exactly that, the third party’s ears pricked up at our conversation and she asked what had happened and I told her too. It shifted things back to my mom rather than being protected onto me at least. I was thinking earlier today of all those moments I’ve had where things didn’t add up before I got clarity and this might be one of those moments for the other person.
.
Hi AV, Jade and Leigh,
I had mixed feelings at first, when I heard LMRSnarc from work left the State.
At first I felt disappointed. Disappointed because I won’t get that chance to ignore him to his face, or to confront him and tell him off. I know that’s ET and my addiction talking, but that was the first thing I thought of and felt when I heard the news.
The second feeling was relief. Relief that I won’t have to feel my ET rise if I saw him, that I won’t have to worry about seeing him around at all.
He didn’t live in the same town as me, as the fireman did for you, AV, but he lived close enough that the worry was concrete and a realistic concern.
The third feeling was I was a little sad. Sad that he wasn’t the person I thought he was and he will never be that person. That person wasn’t real. He was a facade and a great disappointment. Xx
The fourth feeling, these Geyser emotions are annoying at times…I felt happiness….finally he’s gone and that felt good to let it wash over my mind and heart. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Interesting (and understandable) to read the different emotions you experienced. We’re human, and wanting to “have our say” or ignore someone to send a message is natural, but you know it’s also emotional thinking which is good. Something that keeps coming up when i talk to chatgtp about my N stuff is grief. I hadn’t thought of it like that, but I think that’s correct, a lot of your time, even with acquaintances, it’s grief that someone isn’t your person we thought they were. Does that resonate? It did for me but in relation to NMom so might be different in a way. 🤔
Hi Jade,
I felt strong grief early on ,from LMRSnarc from work , not being the person I thought he was and the pain involved with the manipulations he worked on me. I grieved him like he died, it hurt as bad as when my Dad died. I grieved him for a while, now the grief is softer and it’s why I call it sadness. It’s a dull ache, nolonger overwhelming and ripping through me. I worked through the grief to feeling a little sadness now. I wonder if that little sadness will eventually leave or not. I guess time will tell me.
I think you were wondering if I felt grief for my mother not being the person I thought she was? The truth is, with my mother she was manipulative to me from as long as I can remember, so no grief there because she didn’t wear a mask with me. She showed me her mean side a lot and often. She wear the mask outside the household. She was her true self with me.
What I do feel grief for is that I didn’t have a loving mother, like I see in some movies, or with some people I know. I often wonder if their mother wears a mask too, or if it’s genuine behavior I see with them. I wonder what it would have been like to have a mother like that, but then think, stop pitting yourself, it won’t change nothing, stop making yourself feel bad about it. So, I think on something else and push it out of my thoughts. Sometimes I have to repeat this a few times. Xx
That’s makes sense Rebecca. And I think these “griefs” can also compound on earlier ones too. Its funny how acquaintances can sometimes affect us more than family though too.
It makes sense though with your mom that you always saw her. But I get the grief for not having a “real” mom like you deserved too. I look at other moms and wonder the same thing.
I think I always knew something was off and spent all my life trying to work it out and then when I realised what it was in my forties, then grieved. But I can see how I pulled the wool over my own eyes for a long time till I was ready to face it properly. My mom’s facade is good even being closed doors. Or she does things in plain sight that are always deniable and I’d look like the asshole if I addressed it. 🥴
Jade,
I have not used the term shielding but I suppose it would work to delineate what I do. When I’m in the presence of a narc, they do not get to see me, I don’t share. That’s it. I respond to them, if they are appropriate and it will not make me vulnerable to do so. If both of those things are not true, there is no response. Sometimes I miss and get into some kind of trouble. When that happens, I get away as fast as possible, usually in under a minute. I don’t make excuses for why, I just go. Depending on how bad the breach was, I may need a few days to recover.
I currently live in the same house as my mother, we have separate areas and it was easier until about 6 months ago when I started watching a young grandchild while my daughter works. I also work full time, so when I am pulled away, the child is with my mother, which he loves! She was a fantastic grandmother and is now great grandmother. They don’t have the same dynamic that my siblings and I had as children, living in the same house with her and being under her authority. She is the reason my brother did not have children and that I had planned on not having them.
My children who have lived in my house since we lived here do see her as she is, they’ve seen her treatment of me, and their view of her has changed, this is validating to me and helpful. My older children do not see it.
Anyway, since this has going on, there has been more interaction and my ET has been affected. So I am here more often again. It helps a lot.
I look forward to the day I no longer have to share the house with her. I practice NC when my grandson is not here. That helps also. But I know it’s taking a toll. I consider moving at times, when she’s been extra bad to me, but I need this house, it’s a lot of my retirement fund.
Hi AV & Jade,
I think shielding can be used in two different ways. A Contagion empath might shield as a way to not feel another person’s emotions. Then there’s a way to shield in order to keep our own emotions in and not let another person see what’s really going on with us. This is something I do on a near constant basis. My wall (shield) is up nearly all of the time. I trust very few people and I’ve been that way my whole life. I’m only open with one empath friend and my empath daughter. Even here where I talk about all the narcs in my life, I’m protected because I don’t share my real name.
But I digress. I communicate with narcs the same way as AV does. Its just a dialogue between two people. I’ve been described as cold. What’s interesting though is I do have Geyser in me. It usually comes out as excitement, laughter or anger though. Now, of course, sometimes my Geyser gets the best of me. I don’t let it get me down though. I pull myself up, wipe myself off and keep it moving.
Rebecca, thank you for describing the feelings you had about him moving. And the Geyser piece at the end. I have not had the same experience when narcs from life have left, except the fireman and summer narc, both of which I ended. For me when they’ve been gone, they’re gone, the end. A relief. It’s not until much later that I have realized there were emotions, they just got lost in the chaos. I have been thankful for the end being so cut and dried and the emotional part coming later, when I was more able to handle it. Going through all of the emotions in real time would likely do me in. I did have emotions after ending those two though, but because I’d don’t the ending myself, though it was horrible, I made it through. I kept reminding myself of how bad they were, this was better. And after the second one, I filled time looking for answers as to what had happened, which is how I got here. But in neither case was I going back, nope, as tempted as I was early on. The line had been crossed, they were done.
Hi Jade,
My mother’s facade would drop sometimes with people outside the household. A lot of times people would think it was her blood sugar dropping, she was a diabetic, and they would think she was moody from her blood sugar issues.
She was also diagnosed with bipolar disorder, when I was 6. She refused to keep taking her medicine, even though she was a LPNurse and knew better….She thought she didn’t need the medicine.
She would have my Dad or I make her insulin shot for her, she used the needles, both R and N insulin. She really enjoyed being babied. I see her behaviors more now, looking back on them, than I ever did while she was alive.
Her and my Dad both died at 63, they had me when they were almost 30. She died from complications from diabetes. Her lack of care to her own health, cost her, her life. She thought she was above her diabetes. She ignored following a healthy diet and ate cake, cookies etc and would take more insulin shots besides the ones my Dad and I would make her. She was a nurse and ignored her own health. I still don’t understand that.
Maybe it was her grandiose thoughts, where she thought she could do as she pleased. I don’t know. Xx
Thanks for letting me know how you deal with a narcissist A Victor. that’s really helpful. I think someone else mentioned the term sheiding but I i think that’s what you’re describing too imo.
Wow, that’s a lot living with your Mom but you sound like you’re handling it really well and yes being here to keep your head straight in dealing with her is a very good idea too. I’m glad you’re younger kids see it too. That’s useful for them and good to have that validation in a difficult situation.
Hi AV,
Thank you, I wish I didn’t have all those emotions hitting me while it was happening….it’s why I seek alone time every day…I need that break to work through my feelings, take a break and breathe without other people around me.
You had emotions, but I think he pushed them down and ignored them until you wanted to deal with them. I think you mentioned, Super in your Empath make up? It sounds like your Super was working for you. 🙂
I don’t have any Super in my Empath make up. I wish I did. I walked away from my ex-husband, but it wasn’t cut and dry. I felt a lot of emotions and doubts. I even almost went back to him. Thankfully him deeply cutting himself gave me another reason to stay away from him and go through the divorce. He was diagnosed with Borderline PD, but he was also a ULTypeB Elite narc. I feel nothing, but relief for leaving him now. Xx
Thank you for your reply and it’s nice to talk with you again. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I have super in my makeup and no CoD and I haven’t left my narc husband yet either. Don’t beat yourself up. There’s a very specific reason why we haven’t left the narcs in our lives. We don’t want to be homeless. Freedom is still our goal and we both need to hold onto that goal!
How my super helps me though is that I see him very clearly and I view everything he does through the lens of narcissism. I don’t know if that will always be enough but for now it is.
I’m sending hugs! We got this!
Rebecca–
Why do you wish you had super empath in you? What is it that you would want from that school? Is there any reason to be glad that you don’t have super in your empathic schools?
I’m curious. I’ve seen/heard people say they’re glad to have no contagion, but I’ve never seen something similar said of the super empath. Though, there is plenty of praise and criticism for them to go around. People more often wish for it or for more of it.
It would be interesting to hear from HG about more instances of pushback about ED results. He mentioned that one person took the test four times trying to get the “right” results. It sounds like most people need to take time to sit with their results, and maybe some owing to other factors always have a difficult time with it. I find the responses of people to the ED results (not necessarily the results themselves, though I have asked many people about them) particularly interesting. Some sort of poll pair might be interesting…like…
What was your first reaction to the results?
Confusion
Calmed/Settled
etc.
How did you feel a year later?
Makes sense now (I’ve learned more)
Still confused in ways
Hope all is well with you today.
Hi Dani,
Why do I wish I had Super in me? Because the way I see Super empaths is they are able to walk away from the narc without much emotion holding them up from moving on. They can cut off a narc and leave them wondering what happened. I wish I was more like that, in control of my emotions. They are able to bring their ET down and think more logically. I admire that. Xx
I was able to walk away from my ex-husband, with the help of his parents and even then, I fought with myself to stay gone. I am my own worse enemy at times, when it comes frpm staying away from toxic people. My conditioning is strong and so is my addiction. I blame that on my Geyser emotions and my strong attachment to people I love…my Codependent part. Xx
Hi Dani,
I answered your first 2 questions in a separate comment. I hope you get it. Xx
To answer your third question…Do I have any reasons to NOT want Super in my empath make up? No, I can’t think of any. Honestly, they’re able to easily walk away, or at the very least are able to have an easier time walking away. I don’t have a bit of that in me. Xx
The EDC, I was one of the ones who did it more than once…not sure if HG was speaking of me because I did it 3 times….because I felt a change in me , due to some healing and understanding I gained her with HG’s work, and I wantrd to know what the changes would look like on the EDC, so I would do it again. HG didn’t have an issue with it and we discussed it and my concerns around the results.
The only difference was my percentages changed, none of my Schools or Cadres did. HG’s EDC is accurate and I understood the changes and what they meant. The mirror became less shit smeared for me, more clear to me. I see myself, though I still don’t like all of what I see..xx
It would be interesting to see those polls. Dani and I hope HG does them! It would be interesting and thanks for suggesting it. Thanks for your quesrions, it made me reflect more on my view of the Super. Xx
I read CHAINED and saw myself a lot in that back. I wondered why the Codependent seems to be so hated? Why? I’m a Majority Standard Triple Hybrid and I have a hard time accepting all of me. I wish I had some Super “balls” so to speak and I could cut people off with no self doubt, no mixed feelings, just freedom. Xx
Crikey Rebecca, that was a lot of health issues that your mom landed on you and your dad to deal with. 😅 I think it’s sometimes a lack of accountability for themselves too.. they make it someone roses problem!
Hi Rebecca,
Thank you for answering. I found both answers.
“…the way I see Super empaths is they are able to walk away from the narc without much emotion holding them up from moving on. They can cut off a narc and leave them wondering what happened. I wish I was more like that, in control of my emotions…” — That makes sense. I like that they speak their minds…at least that’s part of my interpretation of them. I think they might also fight harder when devaluation comes slamming into them.
“I was able to walk away from my ex-husband, with the help of his parents and even then…My conditioning is strong and so is my addiction. I blame that on my Geyser emotions and my strong attachment to people I love…my Codependent part.” — Regarding your geyser…do you find you express your emotion (whatever it is) to everyone around you?
HG said the person who had done it the most did so four times. I don’t know more about it than that. I didn’t know you’d done it more than once.
What were your concerns with the results, if you don’t mind saying? You’ve just seemed, in the comments that I’ve read, quite peaceful with them, though I do feel like I remember you saying that you were not settled with it the first time.
“HG didn’t have an issue with it and we discussed it and my concerns around the results.” — Mr. Tudor is very good to his blog and YouTube followers.
“The only difference was my percentages changed, none of my Schools or Cadres did. HG’s EDC is accurate and I understood the changes and what they meant. The mirror became less shit smeared for me, more clear to me. I see myself, though I still don’t like all of what I see..xx” — Fascinating. I would imagine that there are super empaths who get away from their narcissists and don’t like all the ways that they behaved as well. It might be that they dislike their behavior for different reasons. Did they change in a way that you liked?
“It would be interesting to see those polls. Dani and I hope HG does them! It would be interesting and thanks for suggesting it.” — I hope so, too. It would be interesting.
“I read CHAINED and saw myself a lot in that back. I wondered why the Codependent seems to be so hated? Why?” — I’m not sure why they are so hated. But the Super and the Contagion both have their fans and their disdain groups too. Contagions for being hypersensitive and weird, from what I recall hearing and reading. The Super for too much chutzpah. The contagion–possibly because people view it as weak. People don’t like being seen as weak. I don’t perceive CoDs as being weak. Mr. Tudor has said multiple times that they can take devaluation on a scale that would make other schools quake. So that is not weakness. (The super also can take a lot of abuse, but sometimes they know when to beat it. I remember one majority super empath saying that they were in a relationship with a narc for 18 years…so the super is not a Get Out of NarcTown ticket.) I think people don’t like to look at themselves going to all those lengths to please someone who abused them. It makes them feel spineless, maybe. That is all me guessing. I don’t see any reason to look down on any school or cadre in someone else.
“I’m a Majority Standard Triple Hybrid and I have a hard time accepting all of me.” — Why? If you don’t mind answering…it sounds to me like from listening to Truthseeker, a wonderful Super Saviour and voice of kindness and reason, that she had big feelings when she got here.
Hope all is well in your world.
Thanks for more details on shielding, Leigh. I think my problem till the last few years was that I had no wall and found it hard to stop being friendly to everyone even proven narcs or difficult people. A people pleaser mixed with too much worrying about others and not enough about myself. 🤦♀️
I’m learning that it’s ok and in fact wise to have one and I’m learning to do it my own way. Now I’m learning “who is who” more in my daily life i just avoid the ones I know to avoid and that creates a lot less friction.
I think you’ve probably saved yourself a lot of issues because of the way you are, imo.
Hi Jade,
My wall is just naturally up all of the time. I’m a double ACON, which means both my parents are narcs. I think because I never felt safe with my parents, it just became my standard operation procedure to have my wall up with everyone. I trust no one. How could I? I couldn’t even trust my parents. What’s interesting though is that there are a couple of people that I do trust and with them my wall is down. Its nice to know that I don’t always have to hide behind that wall.
Hi Leigh,
Regarding the wall/shielding, this is the distinction I’ve made, the Contagion empaths here sometimes speak of shielding, I see what I do as more of a wall. It is the same effect though. For me it goes beyond keeping my emotions behind the wall though, for me it is any information at all. Any information given can be, and often is, used in some manipulation somehow, so nothing is safe to share.
Oh yes, the wall is the same for me. Although I’ve been doing it my whole life, not just since I’ve found Mr. Tudor. Please also see my response to Jade.
Hi Dani,
I’m sorry, I ddin’t answer the last 2 questions. Xx
What was my first reaction to my EDC results?
My first reaction was chagrin because of three parts of my empath make up was upsetting to me. Codependent, Geyser and Contagion, but mainly the Codependent because it’s why I grieve when I lose someone and my Geyser makes the grief even stronger. The Contagion makes me feel others emotions and I have lucid dreams, sometimes terrifying nightmares…..and it comes and goes.
How did I feel about my results a year later? I could see me more in the results. I was more accepting of it being me, but later on I noticed changes in me as I healed some. The healing came from understanding narcissism and understanding me more. My percentages changed due to my healing and it was interesting to see the difference. I recommend it, if you want to see how healing has changed you? It’s really eyeopening and it helped me understand myself even more. Xx
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for explaining about your Super. Xx I thought if I had Super I would be braver, tougher etc..I tend to feel I lack for not having Super and I see my Codependency plays a part in that beat myself up tendency I have. Xx
I look at my Schools and Cadres and I don’t like all that I see, but it is me and I can’t completely change who I am, not enough to change my empath make up anyway.
I noticed my Contagion got stronger, when I started healing and I think my Contagion helps me see clearer and it might have been what allowed me to see through my mother’s mask , even as a child. I know it allowed me to pick up on her vibes/moods and when to avoid her.
HG, I’m looking forward to learning more about the Empath’s Schools and Cadres! There’s so much I want to know about them…I’m excited to learn more! Xx
Hi Dani,
I saw your replies from earlier this morning. I’m sorry I couldn’t answer sooner. I was at work.
Why don’t I like what I see about myself from my EDC results?
I don’t like the Codependent part because I think it’s why I take abuse and still love the abuser. I have a high tolerance for abuse and I see the Codependent part plays into that. I attach strongly to loved ones and I grieve when I lose them. I felt the Codependent in my EDC was a death bell to escaping.
The Geyser makes my fear feel even stronger, fear of failure, fear of homelessness, fear of being alone, fear of the unknown….Geyser makes me worse.
The upside to both is, the Geyser allows me to feel so much and yes, my emotions come through even when I’m trying to look neutral. So, I do show my emotions to everyone I come in contact with., even if it’s just my eyes that show my emotions. My mother used to tell me, my face was an open book. She easily read my emotions in my eyes and face. I can’t go blank, I don’t have a blank expression. My face is always telling people something of what is gping on in my head. It concerns me that I can’t be neutral, it makes me feel less than others, like I’m a child again and less than a normal person. I’m not normal. I knew that early in my life. That I’m not like my Dad, my mother or my brother. I’m different and in some ways, to me I’m less than them. Again my codependent thinking, where I’m less than everyone else. Why I fight my own thoughts and feelings so much.
I’m learning to accept that there are parts of myself I don’t like and that’s life sometimes too. Xx
I’m good, thanks for asking. I’m happier at my new location at work, where I don’t have a LMRS Narc for a boss now. 😃😄🥰
Hope you are well too. I enjoy your questions it helps me reflect on my thinking more. Thank you. Xx
Thank you HG for moderating the comments and your time here. I hope I didn’t make too many typos. 😬😄xx
Hi Rebecca,
“Codependent, Geyser and Contagion.” — Did you like the Standard Empath and the other cadres? Did they make sense?
“My percentages changed due to my healing and it was interesting to see the difference. I recommend it, if you want to see how healing has changed you? It’s really eyeopening and it helped me understand myself even more.” — Did the percentages change all three times or were they fairly consistent? It’s interesting to know that someone has taken it more than once…and not because they’re a narc. I just assumed regarding some people based on Mr. Tudor’s tone that some of the repeat takers were narcissists. I figured some might be other classes, too. But I wasn’t really sure. If you’re comfortable and it’s okay to say…how many answers changed? When others have mentioned their results and looking back at the test…they say things like I might change one to three questions…other than that, totally confident. I wonder about that…are those people with majority schools and majority cadre? Wouldn’t someone who’s a triple hybrid school with a quad hybrid cadre just naturally see that some answers are equally valid on each question? And how do they change to keep everything there? (Mr. Tudor, I’m convinced more than ever that you’re a gifted mindreader…an empath whisperer…please don’t take that away.)
I am intrigued by the idea of seeing how percentages can change.
Why don’t I like what I see about myself from my EDC results?
“I felt the Codependent in my EDC was a death bell to escaping.” — I think with Mr. Tudor’s help that anyone can escape.
“The upside to both is, the Geyser allows me to feel so much and yes, my emotions come through even when I’m trying to look neutral.” — I think that people can find that genuine expression to be wonderful. It’s particularly nice–when we see all the artifice in the world.
Glad that things are going better away from an LMRS. I think that a lot would be better away from that school of narc.
Hello Rebecca,
” Honestly, they’re able to easily walk away, or at the very least are able to have an easier time walking away. I don’t have a bit of that in me. ”
For me personally, I wouldn’t call it “easier”. It’s more like in “Saw” movie – I’m ready to give up my leg to save my life – kind of thing. I’m 67% Super, 19% Co-ed, 14% Contagion, if you are interested.
It’s probably, easier mentally to leave when, for example, abuse is obvious to everyone around you. Like a husband beats his wife, or alcoholic/drug addict, or serial cheater and doesn’t hide it, etc. It’s way harder when no one understands why you want to leave such “an amazing, wonderful guy/man”. ” He is a perfect husband, are you mad?” “You guys, have so much chemistry”, “you are so beautiful, ideal couple” etc. Especially, when on top of that, you have a child with them. I left both my husbands, better say – escaped, I guess. Oh, my 1st husband, when I saw him for the first time and he had approached me with a big smile, It felt as if I’d been struck by lightning at the spot. That look he gave me… f.ck. Though, later it turned out, that for him it wasn’t the first time that he saw me, he noticed me way earlier. I was so happy, when I was marring him, flying. Yeah, and then it all went to hell. Every time, different type of hell, but still, the consequences for me are very similar – slow death.
I don’t think being a super empath is something, that brings happiness to one’s life. I would prefer not to be empath at all, actually, so I won’t attract narcissists or be drawn to them.
I also have geizer, so we are a bit like sisters 🤗🤗.
Leigh, Rebecca and Contagious,
My small percentage of Geyser still irritates me when it shows up. Thankfully it is not very often and doesn’t stay very long. It literally disrupts my calm. It’s annoying. I enjoy it in others sometimes though.
My daughter who is majority Geyser will have an outburst, positive or negative, and then tell me I’m the dramatic one. I roll my eyes. We all do. But she literally doesn’t see that it was her that had the drama, it’s so natural to her. Like I couldn’t see my Savior for a while because it was so me.
LOL, AV! My daughter is high in Geyser too and she’s also very dramatic and has no clue!
AV,
Do you mean in your day to day life you don’t see yourself acting as a saviour but it’s very strong and/or majority cadre?
Hi Leigh,
I am working on (in my own way) being more like you re sheilding / a wall. As HG said in a recent comment ..
“Every interaction between a narcissist and a person (or potential interaction) is a manipulation because it is always self-serving to the narcissist and invariably premised on something that is misleading (even if not malign) concerning the other person.”
Seeing my nmom recently (I see her very little) it was clear as day to me that this is exactly the case. On the surface it was a pleasant day with another family member their too but everything HG says above was true in this interaction. I feel happy with how I dealt with her but know I need to fully shield in future. I had come to the conclusion a while back that I cannot share anything with her and I did a little too much that day. We live and learn (hopefully!). 😅 I have a small group of trusted people now and for most others it’s surface level.. we can be kind AND wise I believe.
Hi Dani,
Yes, my savior cadre is majority and so intrinsic to me that for quite a while after knowing about it, I could not separate out what it considered of. It was a comment from TS that began clarification for me, now I recognize it easily.
I have 3 dogs, all adopted from unfortunate situations, 2 cats who were both feral and now live happily in my house, and 3 birds, again who needed homes and I couldn’t say no. I stopped going to pet stores with my kids but still they came, right to my yard. I don’t look at animals anymore, I’m not even a dog person!
It has been the same with people and my narc ex’s had horrific stories, this is my concern about trying another relationship. I’ve always been a sucker for the underdog.
That makes sense Leigh. I thought I might be a double ACON but think my dad wasn’t on balance. I’m glad you’ve found some good people you feel safe with too. 💖
Hi Arya,
I thought having Super made it easier to leave, but you’re right physical abuse would be a more powerful motivator to leave a toxic marriage. I left my first husband too, when he threatened me and his behaviors were getting worse.
Geyser sisters? 😄 I like that, has a nice ring to it! 😄xx
Hi Arya, i wondered if your name was inspired by Arya from Game of Thrones? Reading tote comment about you being majority super made me think that.. Arya is like this too (imo). She’s a role model of mine. ✊ I’ve not taken the EDC but imagine I’m higher in contagion, geyser, codep and saviour than super but definitely trying to develop these traits!
Thanks for what you wrote about obvious abuse making it easier to leave in terms of other people’s view of it, at least, Arya.
Hi AV,
The interaction between your Geyser daughter and you, had me laughing! I can picture the eye roll too. 😄😄xx
Rebecca, haha, my daughter’s drama makes us laugh sometimes too!
Hello Jade,
Yes, Arya – from a Song of Ice and Fire books. I love books much more than TV representation. Less porn and cruelty, more interesting history and deeper characters insight/description. Plus, John Snow in the books is way more hotter, than in the TV series. On the screen he is too pathetic for my taste. The books reminded me of the ones I read when I was a teenager during my isolation. Books were my sanctuary. The Accursed kings. That resulted in my interest of French and English history of middle ages.
Yeah, I’m a super empath, kicking narc balls left, right and center. Speaking about the balls, at dating sites, once I have received a rather unusual message that made me laugh, I copy here: “Hello miss, I know we are quite far from each other but if we ever meet please allow me to beg you to walk on my balls so you don’t get sore feet”. I wanted to reply : “yes, I will allow, but only with high heels shoes”. A lot of freaks there, for sure. I wish there were a special filter in addition to the age range, so you can filter the narcs out, and only normals and empaths would remain. Preferably, empaths.
Anyway, jokes aside, ofc, you should try to take EDC. With discount, sometimes it’s only 50$. I did it few weeks after I had entered this world, so I didn’t understand a thing except for – that I’m an Empath. Later, it became more clear. On my cadre, I have magnet, geizer and carrier, I don’t have savior and that is very true about me. HG knows us better than we do, that is scary.
Hello Rebecca 💕
Nothing is easy, when one is dealing with a narcissist. I’m happy for you that you escaped your LMR Somatic narc, (as I recall from your previous messages) and that he is in that past now 🏋♂️🌋☠️ it’s not exactly geizer, but I guess volcano also fits a description 🤗
Rebecca, Dani, AVictor, Jade:
I think it’s fascinating how we accept or reject a part of our Empath results. We are all in the empath group and the only nuke is no contact so….same army, same weapon. I think empathy is empathy and manifests in its own way with benefits:
Co-D: people pleasers who give. Yes they can hurt themselves but don’t forget the GIVE part. How can a community survive without those who GIVE? Also notice all the empaths we love Dolly, Ricky , JK had a co-D element and long term relationship. Don’t we all? They give community and are the long term marriages…stability.
Super: They stand up for themselves and others quicker and can go super nova! Maybe not ninjas but pretty bad ass and needed in an unjust world. We are the crusaders.
Contagion: We are susceptible to the “ weird” such as dreams, psychic, spirituality, creativity but we go deep. We know the feelings of others. We also figure out motives, behaviors from knowing what’s going on if we listen and trust ourselves. Withdrawal is not weak, even warriors need rest to battle the next day 😉 We are the Undercurrent, the Seers, the Prophets.
Carriers: Enough said in the name. God gave us two hands, one is to help yourself the other is to help others. We are the strength.
Martyr: carrier on steroids. Yes this person hurts themselves but look at classic martyrs. They do it because they believe in what they are doing deeply and they are willing to carry on despite the sacrifice. They often create change. We are the changers .
Geyser: They are the hearth we gather for the light. Who doesn’t embrace their laughter, their light, their emotion. We are the light.
Magnet: Others run to them. Why? To get by the day to day. These people provide a way for others to survive . We are the Hope.
Savior: I can’t help but think of my Savior. It is a calling to save those in need. Of course this we are the heroes.
Standard: all combined but in bits and pieces like glue that holds the much needed balance.
When I say “ we” , I am just using it in general, not personally:) also we are imperfect human beings, but our empathy and s our strength and needed to keep this world humane and alive.
Btw A Victor, I have 3 dogs ( the Peaky Blinders… Frenchies… watch them walk together, lol) had rescue cats and have 4 fish in a pond ( the Beatles) . My life is dogs in part lol. I also have a Black Phoebe who’s adopted me, and Sparrows who visit daily etc….
Thanks for the empath trait list Contagious! That’s really helpful and I love your passion and the togetherness you foster! Unless I’m wildly wrong and am actually a narcissist lol, I think I’m mostly codependent and contagion with a fair bit of geyser. But it’s interesting seeing people discussing the pros and cons of each trait.. I can see where others come in too and feel ok with what I think I am.. it just explains a lot! also you definitely strike me as having super in relation to your job and your kids.
Contagious, what a great comment, very uplifting!
We are kindred spirits with regard to the animals! 🙂
Hi Dani, AV, Leigh, Jade, TS , Contagious and Asp Amp,
We are all talking about the EDC and the School and Cadre results, and how we feel about them.
Dani, you asked me how I feel about the other Schools and Cadres in my Empath make up?
The Geyser I could definitely relate to, I could see it because I have strong emotions and sometimes I struggle with them.
The Carrier I could see too because I was my mother’s crutch when Dad was gone. I picked up where he left off. I work until exhausted and then get up to work again. It makes me reliable and a deternined person. I like it because it’s the part most like my Dad. 🥰
Savior, definitely see that, the three times I defended my dog against other dogs and kept my dog safe and how I defend my friends and love ones against other people…I can see that too. I very much have the wolverine side to me, when it comes to defending animals and people.
Contagion, I could see through my mother’s facade, lucid dreams, craving of alone time, nature calls me, feelings of future events, feeling vibes, feeling others emotions etc…related to that. Felt things happening before they happened…like my Dad’s death..
Codependent, was so unhappy about that…already went into that….
Standard, I understood as the backbone to empathy for a wide range of people and animals. I get upset when strangers get hurt or killed, even in movies when it’s fake. I still get upset. I remember getting upset and crying over FOX AND THE HOUND, as a small child. I thought it was heartbreaking that they couldn’t be friends. Xx
Hi Arya,
Nice. She’s my heroine! I looked a bit like her when I was younger too. I haven’t read the books but I know what you mean plus not a fab either of the series version of Jon Snow. I’m lower on the super I imagine .. I can be very people pleasing but I’m kicking that habit slowly but surely! Super is kind of what I’m learning to be when needed and I have definitely come a long way in the five years since I’ve “realised” everything.
Ah, the name suits you as a super! ✊ Haha re the dating message. There’s some strange people out there lol! I know what you mean about filters. I met hubby on one, and he’s an empath I think too (tho probably more super like you).. it was over twenty years ago now so they’ve probably changed for your worst but I got very lucky and he’s really helped me deal with the narc family stuff, so much.
I can’t quite believe the levels of HGs insights .. how does he know soooo much about us, himself and narcs. Truly amazing. Especially to understand why empaths are often si different from each other too..
Hi Leigh,
I think you make very valid points.
You’re right also to mention context. The romantic relationships where this happened all involved narcs. The friendship that ended, my best friend for years, Maid of Honour at my wedding, also a narc.
When I describe not asking for help and them needing to pay more attention, whilst I might not have asked, it’s fairly obvious that help was needed. So, for example Love of My Life Guy. I was away at uni and he had his own business. He went in to work some but not all Saturday mornings.
When my final year started we talked about scheduling time to see each other. We agreed that I would do more travelling due to him working some Saturdays. During that final year he drove to see me just once. Worse, as I was going through the weeks of finals, I was so anxious I felt I didn’t have time to grocery shop so I lived off cereal for weeks. Weight dropped off me. He was able to comment on how skinny and tired I looked, but not able to get in his car and drive the 2.5 hours to stay with me at the weekend. My student apartment wasn’t luxurious enough for him apparently.
I missed one weekend, had a final late Friday and another first thing Monday so I stayed down there. The one weekend I didn’t drive to him, my mum saw his car parked on his ex girlfriend’s driveway. I turned the moment I found out. I quite literally felt it happen. Every good feeling just died on the spot. As it turned out, several joint friends told me much later, it had been a birthday party, he only stayed an hour then left. It made no difference. It was the principal of the thing. I had been on my knees, exhausted, but he didn’t change his routine or lift a finger to help me. Months later he called begging to see me ( Grand Hoover) he took me out to dinner at my favourite restaurant, proposed, offered everything I’d always wanted. I actually tried to switch back on, a few weeks later I ended it permanently. It was as if I had never known him, as if he never existed.
I didn’t ask for help, I shouldn’t have needed to. He didn’t help or support because it didn’t suit him to do so. No emotional empathy for me, just the necessity of the Prime Aims.
All of the narc relationships followed a similar pattern. Best Sex Ever Guy I was still in the golden period when I left. There I had been specific, I did ask but not for help. I asked him not to visit for the first few weeks I was in Paris on secondment. I needed to make friends, I was expat and I wasn’t going to fly back or have him fly out until those relationships were established. Ex pat is strange, it’s very transient, you need to make friendships quickly or it’s tough to make them later. He showed up the first or second weekend I was there, at my office, carrying a dozen red roses. Same deal, I turned on the spot. He wasn’t there for me, he was there to brand his property. Didn’t care what I needed, only what he needed. Control, fuel and his favourite residual benefit.
I don’t actually think it through. When I turn, door slam in INFJ terms, the decision is taken on my behalf almost. No internal debate, no going back and forth, no uncertainty. I’m done in the instant. I can’t speed the process up, force it or reverse it. It’s just over.
The only really tough one was online narc. There I left before I turned, that’s not ideal for me at all. He sits in the exception box across the board. I think it’s because I just couldn’t get a clear read on him.
I do agree with you, it is the case that I know how someone is feeling, I know when I should offer help, so I do have the expectation that others should know too. You’re right I don’t voice it. I probably should voice things more.
I agree that people have busy lives, don’t always notice. I find that difficult to accept though. If they were less self absorbed they would notice. If they don’t notice, then I’m not willing to invest further.
I agree, it’s possible that some friendships might have been halted along the way through me not voicing something I needed. That is the downside of the way I am. I do have expectations and non negotiables. The upside is that it facilitates escape. It’s inevitable that at some point I’ll have thrown a baby out with the bath water. On balance, I’m ok with that.
I agree that potentially Midrangers might appear to step up or be supportive, particularly those who are friends. Funnily enough my mum appears to support but only when it suits her. The regular day to day you would never know, she would seem supportive to an onlooker. The reality is though that her support is purely transactional. Romantically, behind closed doors my experience of Midrangers is that they aren’t supportive beyond the golden period.
I do agree with you also in terms of your example with your empath friend who was just distracted for a time, voicing what you needed was the right thing to do and it does give very concrete proof if that request is then ignored. I recognise it, I just have to be honest and say I can’t ever imagine myself doing it. Fortunately my two closest friends are an empath and an empathic normal. Both notice even small changes in me, particularly the empath. Given that’s the case, if there was an occasion where they didn’t notice, I would know that wasn’t the norm and I’d likely be ok with it. Perhaps that’s what I’m doing, I’m subconsciously registering a repeated selfishness over an extended period and then flipping out over a proverbial straw and camel!
Very fair points Leigh, I’ll think about what you’ve said.
Xx
That’s interesting, TS. It works a little differently for me. Sometimes its a full switch to off. That’s what happened with my father and workplace narc. And I had no control over that. It just happened. I was done.
With my mother, ex best friend, husband and daughter, it worked/works a little differently. I say works because its still a work in progress with my husband and daughter. It wasn’t a flip or a switch. The line gradually moved. One thing that’s similar with them is that none of them get full access to me anymore. Little by little I give them less and less of me.
With my mom & ex best friend, I’m done. There’s indifference and zero impact. With my husband, I avoid interactions as much as possible. I see him very clearly and I can’t unsee it. And my hope is still to obtain freedom. With my daughter, I see her very clearly as well but I can’t turn my back on her. I don’t know I’ll ever be able to do that.
Anyway, I digressed. I do understand what you mean that sometimes its out of our control. When they let us down, the wall goes up and the door is closed.
Yes, that’s how my daughter is as well. She only supports when it suits her. But she’s really good and doing it at the right time.
For me, by asking, it eliminates any plausible deniability on their part and no self blame on my part.
How’s your empath friend from the gym?
Is talking about your ex husband still off limits? I was wondering if you’ve determined what he is at all. If you don’t want to discuss, I totally understand. I was just curious.
Hi Leigh,
I think there are several things that feed in to that switch going down. The first will just be a trigger. We might know we have a specific trigger, we might not, but if they catch a trigger then I think it can be an instant switch.
The second is possibly more of a subconscious recognition over time. A recognition of a pattern of behaviours without necessarily logically thinking about things or debating them with ourselves. Then it’s probably more of a straw and camel scenario. The reason I say that is because of the shield. I raise the shield consciously as we’ve already discussed. There are rare occasions though where the shield is raised automatically, I don’t choose to raise it. So that’s subconscious recognition, not conscious. Sometimes the subconscious mind is aware before the conscious mind has chance to catch up.
The third is likely a combination of both. A subconscious recognition that is less conclusive at that point in time together with a milder trigger. Independently not enough to cause that switch to go down but together they tip the balance.
Ex husband? I have an ex husband?! There are sections of my life I don’t discuss here on the blog.
My empath friend from the gym is doing well post his own ensnarement. He really worked hard, he still listens to HG when driving to and from the gym. That place is like a scene from Angels and Demons. It’s amazing to watch. We have identified numerous narcs in there and a fair few empaths. He was training most of the narcs as their PT so he had years of backstory which helped us to identify them. We talked about cross pollution and he has offloaded most of his narc clients onto another trainer called Kelsey. Kelsey is a normal and absolutely oblivious to the narc craft. I’ve watched him in action, they literally bounce off him, they don’t seem to get any purchase, very funny.
My empath friend is still married, he went back to his wife and they’ve moved, they’ve renovated a house so in many ways a fresh start. There is one problem though. His mother in law is a narc. MMRB. I estimate his wife is CoD. The mother in law has her claws sunk in so deeply it’s actually shocking to hear about. Obviously my friend can see what is happening but his wife refuses to even consider that her mum is a narc. She puts the problematic behaviours down to a ‘horrible childhood’ and a ‘difficult life.’ It’s a tough situation as he is trying to manage the cross pollution aspect, but removing himself too much causes accusations from his wife of him not being interested / supportive. Watching the dynamic angers him because he can see each manipulation, can see the stress and anxiety it causes but can do nothing to stop it.
She’s very MMRB. To be honest she’s so MMRB I want to punch her myself and I haven’t even met her! So it’s a tough situation to manage, at least for now. We need a shift in the fuel matrix, but that shift will mean things get worse before they hopefully get better.
We are getting rid of as much narc influence as we can so that we can keep his ET as low as possible. His work environment is clean in terms of narc clients so at least at work whilst he sees plenty of narcs, there is minimal interaction. Now we really just have the mother in law narc, so it’s much better than it was but unfortunately not perfect.
(I have checked with my friend previously and he is happy for me to share his experiences on the blog. Just in case anyone was wondering about that!)
Xx
Hi TS,
Yes, the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. That’s happened to me in many situations.
Are you talking about two different empath friends? I only remember the one friend from the gym. He’s the one that has some contagion too? Correct? He knows when you’re shielding.
I didn’t know about the empath whose wife is CoD with a mother in law that’s MMR B. I do remember you asking a question about it though.
The MMR B’s are the worst. My ex best friend and workplace narc are MMR B. They were the worst crybabies ever.
Hi Leigh,
No I’m talking about the same person. You’re right, part contagion, knows when I’m shielding, he really has my wavelength now, very in tune. I can’t hide a damn thing, unless I shield, then he knows something’s up because I’m shielding!
He went back to his wife but as is often the case he then recognised another narc in his life, the mother in law. His wife suffers with anxiety, quite badly, her mum is doing what narcs do and it’s having the usual impact. His wife would never take the EDC, but from her behaviours and what I’ve learned here, she’s CoD.
Oh Pity Plays like you wouldn’t believe. Silent treatments if there’s any push back. Massive monopolisation of time. Smears my friend whilst encasing it in a pity play. “He doesn’t like me, I don’t know what I’ve done.” Envy, massive envy for her own daughter, their new house, holidays etc. the list goes on, definitely MMRB.
I really wish he could catch a break. He’s in a no win situation with this though. She can’t see it, he can and that drives him insane. He has tried pointing out the negative behaviours, gently, but then he’s the bad guy, the unsupportive husband. Really tough.
His narc knowledge is really strong now though, he’s fascinated in the subject and he really put in the work. It’s really lovely to see how far he has come.
Xx
Oh ok. I think I understand. The women he was ensnared by was not his wife, correct? Then after the ensnarement, he made the decision to go back to his wife. Is that also correct?
Ugh! I know all to well that when you uncover one narc, you find more than just the one narc. I came to narcsite thinking I had one narc in my life and it turned out I actually had 6 in my life. There’s actually more but there are 6 main ones that played important roles in my life.
It can be very difficult for CoD’s to see the truth. I have a niece who is CoD and I can’t even attempt to tell her the truth. Her addiction is so strong and her ET is way too high. She is a martyr to the core and makes excuses for the behaviors of the narcs in her life. She’s always the one cleaning up the mess. Its interesting because she’s in a similar situation. Her mother and sister are the narcs in life. What I’ve learned with her is that I can’t push. She won’t be able to see it until she’s ready. But when and if she’s ready, I’ll be here to show her everything she needs.
Has your friend read Chained? I found it incredibly helpful.
Hi Leigh,
Yes you are correct. Sorry, reading back my last few comments, they weren’t all that clear.
I reminded my friend today to read Chained. He bought it a while ago but with all the chaos surrounding the house renovations he hasn’t had time to read it. He also has to read it on the ‘down low’ for obvious reasons!
Yes, sadly people can’t be forced to see the light. I had hoped that a romantic partner might hold more sway than a narcissist parent but that is not the case.
Xx
Hi Leigh, Rebecca, A Victor, TS and Jordy ( who I think can shield) . I cannot shield if this means not feel what the other is feeling. I have tried. Really tried. I have no on and off button. No switch to click. What I do is withdraw. With my narc ex husband he would go on and on and on and on … and on. All negative energy. I could tune out but I felt the “ bad matter” the anger, the irritability in him and my response was to get up and leave the room. That was my go to. I am stuck in my career. Take a trial. I feel the judge, opposing counsel, the court reporter and jury. I take it all in and then stressed at the end of the day… run to nature, creative project, music, prayer, love love love even if a dog or sleep. I compartmentalize it. Let it go. But I have never mastered shielding. It’s like no filter. Be nice but alas no skill, no talent or no ability….?
Contagious,
My wall is my default in most situations, around most people. It is down around my kids and grandkids and one or two friends, that’s it. I’m not sure that’s better than having none. But, I can lower it in situations where trust develops, once I believe a person not to be a narc, and even if only temporarily. It is not easy though, I have to actually think about it and decide to. With known or suspected narcs, I do not.
Contagious–
Would you want to purge after a happy experience as much as a negative?
Hi Contagious,
I can’t shield out the emotions of others either. But I only have a small percentage of Contagion so I don’t feel the emotions of others all the time. I have to be right next to them and they have to be feeling a strong emotion at the time. When it happens though, I don’t know how to stop it from happening other than to walk away. Yes, nature helps me too. I go for walks a lot. Its how I decompress and get back to center.
TS has mastered it. She gave me some sound advice for my daughter. She has more Contagion then me. Here’s a link to my conversation with TS.
Hope it helps.
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/29/questioning-me/comment-page-20/#comment-460448
Hi Dani, I often find it very hard to “settle” or sleep after positive experiences as well as negative. I kind of accept it now and know that it just takes a bit of time for my nervous system to settle.
Hi Contagious and Dani,
My Contagion comes and goes, and my shielding to me is when I try to push down my emotions so I’m not getting it all over the carpet…so to speak….I try to keep my emotions on the down low and keep quiet. It usually doesn’t work so well at work, due to people wanting to ask me for help and other things.
I try to blend, which is laughable…my eyes are expressive enough to get people to want to engage with me. I get told, your eyes are so expressive I can tell what you are feeling. You look like you’re the one to ask questions to…etc. It happens a lot during my working day and even when I’m out and about off of work.
I do take my last work break in the bathroom, trying to get some time away from people. I need that mental break. I think it’s the Contagion in me needing alone time, craving time in nature. …the bathroom will do at work.
Contagion,
During an argument, I often walk away to get away from all the emotions firing off in me and the bad vibes from the other person.
But, there are those times that I stay and voice my point, depends on how mad I am and who I’m arguing with…xx
DANI, I did remember something else….about what Dani asked me aboit the EDC results. I was expecting to have more Contagion % because I have lucid dreams regularily, which I thought should mean higher % Contagion. And, my Contagion did go up in % the last time I took the EDC. Xx
HI Jade–
Thank you. What do you find does help with your nerves? If you don’t mind sharing.
Hi Rebecca,
Did the standard go down or did the codependent? If you don’t mind answering.
Did you move between different “strengths” like from significant to strong? If you don’t mind.
Dani
Hi Dani,
My Standard % went up and my Codependent % went down from the last time I did it. No, it didn’t change the overall strength level of either one of them. I’m a Majority Standard Triple hybrid, that didn’t change either.
I felt the change in myself, though not a great change, a change was apparent. I thought it was a positive change. Xx
No problem sharing Dani. I accept that I’ll feel like this for a while, now. Also re sleep, I just focus on the in and out breath now till I go off or if I don’t, stay relaxed about it. Claire Weekes work and book “self help for your nerves” has been invaluable too.
That’s really interesting, Rebecca. How your percentages changed. Thank you for sharing. I’m rather curious. I have been trying to figure out how to ask if that was okay.
Rebecca,
Did you find many answers changed between taking and retaking the ED?
Hi Dani,
I don’t have an issue with answering your questions to me and if HG had an issue, I don’t believe the comments would be posted….if that is what you meant by your concern? Did I misunderstand your concern? Xx
No, the answers didn’t change that much. I answered them to how I felt I would respond to the situation at the time. I felt I could see myself better, that my mother’s opinions of me didn’t blur my opinion of myself as much as before. I was healing by learning HG’s work and discussing things with HG.
I was very cobditioned by my narc mother to see myself as the bad child, the stubborn one, the difficult one, the selfish one, the hurtful one, and her scapgoat child. My mind sometimes reverts to “factory settiings” her conditioning of me….and I beat myself up again, thinking I’m the bad one. I have to force myself to think logically, as HG has taught me to do. It’s not easy for me to pull myself out of that dark place and stop beating myself up and I mean that, mentally, not physically. Xx
I do pull myself out and the negative thoughts about myself aren’t as often, or as hard to pull out of now. I am healing, thanks to HG. Xx
Again HG, I am very appreciated of your work and what it’s done for me. Thank you very much for yout help and knowledge! I am so grateful to have found you! Xx
Hi Dani,
MLSNarc was said, during one of the marriage counseling sessions, that he didn’t realize how mentally damaged (he called it screwed up)I was from my mother’s brainwashing. The marriage counselor corrected him and told him, that trauma can be healed and not to be so harsh.
At the end of our sessions, the counselor did see MLSNarc’s with more clarity. Xx
I found this very helpful, Rebecca.. how you, with HGs help are reconditioning how you see yourself vs your mother’s malign projections. I have been working on that too and I appreciate how you described it.
Hi Jade,
I’m glad my comments helped you with your own healing and your own view of yourself. Xx
My self doubt upsets me because it causes me mental torment, but I also worry that my self doubts makes me annoying, especially I get concerned in regards to how HG feels about my self doubts.
It reminds me of HG’s book, SITTING TARGET and how self doubt is a dinner bell to a narcissist on the hunt…and they are “always on the hunt for new prey.” Xx
It’s definitely helped Rebecca, thank you. 😃
Re self doubt again and HG, I know what you mean but I think he understands us in his own way and knows what are going through and gives us the space here we need. I worry that I write rambly (compared to him lol), sometimes esoteric messages with too many emojis for him! Haha.. but I’m learning it’s ok to be here and be me. Same as you. And we can’t be what we’re not or speed up our healing.. that’s just adding more pressure to our situations which won’t help anyone.
I am really enjoying chatting… You’re obviously a lovely caring person that’s dealt with a lot in life and us string and resilient as well as kind. Maybe try and step back from yourself and see yourself as a good friend or loved one sees you. ❤️
Ps I have read about this and also find my OCD tendencies / overthinking / self doubt pop up more when I’m feeling stressed or going through a particularly hard time. Don’t know if that’s the case for you.
Rebecca,
It’s interesting that your answers didn’t change much. That’s what most people report…but you’re a standard triple hybrid…
I wonder how retaking the detector works, just generally for those without a majority school. If they were roughly 50% super and 50% contagion…would answers determining those shuffle in such a way to largely maintain the 50/50…or would having extensive contact with a narc and elevated ET result in more super or more contagion being there…dependent upon the manipulations being used against them? For a triple hybrid in cadre…would a MMR-B, victim bring out more savior cadre in an empath engaged in high contact with them… And the same empath involved with a greater elite have their magnet amplified…it’s not that one is gone as much as one gets amplified by the needs of the narc.
I wonder what Mr. Tudor has seen in his IPPSs…or in the IPPSs of his narc family…that would be incredible and insightful as all knowledge Mr. Tudor shares is.
Thank you Jade,
My overthinking, self doubt etc gets harder to push away when I get stressed and it’s why I distract myself when I get stressed. I can really work myself up before I mentally slap myself out of it.
HG knows us well. He’s very talented in reading people and knowing what they’ll do in a situation. HG is uncanny with how easily he reads us. I think HG was born with the ability and professional training has sharpened his skills. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Like a lot of us here, i’ve always studied people too (truth seeker / trying to find answers!) but HGs level completely blows my socks off. It seems the psychopathy probably enhances that skill as you said.. ability plus honed in his work. It would be interesting how to learn more about how he out all those pieces together. So grateful how he’s put that knowledge to work here. Thanks HG.
Rebecca and Leigh:
Love your discussions! I have a small percent of super and geyser but equal majority martyr and carrier. To be honest, Super does not feel like me as a person. Contagion fit like a glove and carrier. Maybe just maybe… my super comes out with my children. My custody evaluators worst criticism of me was that I could be a “ Mama Bear.” Martyr didn’t quite feel right as in a relationship I am good at boundaries and my ex narc quit drinking, learned to drive and had to have a job. So I thought why so much martyr and I realized it’s my career… I think…. , all the people I have helped, time spent, and those around me saying “ why?” “ why she or he is not paying you? They are using you….“ All my hero’s are classic martyrs and there can be an overlap. I recently read about Saint Perpetua. I didn’t know her. She was a young noble woman from society who wrote a book in prison that included her “ visions” who survived the Roman lions attacking her, stood up to a gladiator before dying, all because she refused to betray Christ. She is a Saint. I just in awe go “ how did she find the strength?” So I think if your heroes are classic martyrs then you strive to be “ more like them.” … maybe…? I am not brave like Perpetua and definitely not a saint heh heh. My lions maybe are big institutions and their fancy overpaid attorneys ….I love representing the underdog. It “ fuels” me. But I think cadres are situational. But so much more to learn about empaths ( hint hint HG:) one of you mentioned lucid dreams. I won’t dive in as off topic but I take them seriously, very seriously. They have followed me as a child. It’s not common statistically and I wonder if anyone outside of someone with contagion has them and what that means…. Hmmm
Hi Contagious,
I think your Super comes out in your career as well. Its where you dig your heels in and draw the line. I definitely see the super in you.
Hey Leigh:
My ex boss told me I wasn’t a doctor or a nurse, this is the business of law! He was an asshole , a total narc but I learned from him. I am a caregiver to clients who need hand holding and to the gruff rich men who pay me and call me “ babe” “ honey” etc… I am their hired gun. But thank you, when it comes to my opponents, I am always civil, polite, and smile but without fear of moving to a goal. Hmmm maybe Super is there. Thanks!
Hi Contagious,
I mentioned that I have lucid dreams, but I also have Contagion in my empath make up. Xx
I am looking forward to learning more about each School and Cadre, like how they each are developed and how they work together, at least they seem to work together….I’m excited about the new material coming out! HG knows how to educate, while entertaining us! Xx
Learning more about contagion is really helpful. I sometimes lucid dream (I did last night), have a very vivid imagination both positively and negatively, feel other people’s stuff very easily (makes me good as a mental health professional) but get very overwhelmed, tired very easily..even before I developed fibromyalgia. Crowds, old buildings etc are hard for me.. it feels like an assault on my senses. I think I feel stuff in a particular way that has led to fibromyalgia. It’s interesting.
The bathroom idea is good Rebecca! I do things like that but mostly spend time alone it with husband apart from at work which helps too.
Hello Rebecca: I think lucid dreams is a sign of contagion. Absolutely.
Hi Jade and Contagious.
Outside of work I like my alone time too. I like this park near my neighborhood. It has a nice walking trails by a river and lots of trees….it’s peaceful and where I mainly go to, to unwind from my thoughts etc. Xx
That sounds lovely Rebecca. 🌿🌸❤️
Hello dear Rebecca and Jade:
Nature is a contagion need. Some Jade have spoken about feelings about spaces, old houses. Not me but read the old contagion blogs. It appears you are one of us! Welcome lol!
Thanks Contagious. I think so from everything I read here .. I’m in good company!
Hi Contagious and Rebecca,
Just a quick drop in on dreams so as not to derail the thread, but I’ve been recording my dreams since discovering Dr Leslie Ellis that I mentioned recently. I have spent the morning talking with chatgpt about them (inc lucid ones ) (I know not everyone likes it but I find it so useful for this type of thing) which has been so enlightening so I thought I’d recommend… 💭
Hi Jade,
Thank you for the suggestion. The AI on my phone keeps reminding me it’s there through messages in my inbox and fb messenger. I keep deleting them because I don’t want to talk to AI. I find it creeping, when I’m having a conversation in my car and it chimes in wanting to assist us. MLSNarc tells it to shut up and tells it to stop being creepy. 😄 I think it’s funny that he’s talking to AI like it cares. It’s even funnier that the AI bot says, “Sorry about that”…..and I didn’t hear the rest because I was laughing about MLSNarc arguing with my phone over the car speakers. 😄xx
Anyway, I avoid talking to AI as much as possible, but thanks for the suggestion. Xx
No problem Rebecca. I’m learning to interpret them myself too without AI too so here’s lots of roads to Rome 😁
Can a narcissist who obtained an MA degree be somatic?
Yes.
… A silent phone call with the TV playing in the background.
A like on a comment made by another guy on your Facebook post…
One phone ring, then hanging up before you can answer.
What kind of behaviour is that? 😂 Is it part of the hoovering family, or something else entirely?
If these actions come from narcissists
1. A hoover.
2. A hoover.
3. A hoover.
… Thank you HG. Why would a narc keep doing it this way instead of hoovering through direct communication?
(He’s been circling around me for a while now. I get these signs from him about once a week, sometimes twice a week. I’m reciprocating the rings but not reaching out to him. Feels like a neverending foreplay)
The narcissism detects that a more direct approach is likely to meet with rejection. Narcissism is a self-defence mechanism, it therefore opts for the approach which is less likely to result in wounding.
Hello HG:
I am going to test myself. I met you about 8-10 years ago on the original blog. I first met this woman online who spoke of narcissism but she was very new age and had these weird ideas of what to do to deal with it. Her package was expensive. I can’t recall but like primal screaming and meditation. Very bat shit crazy. I kept looking and found you. When I first met you, meaning a consult, which was what I did after briefly browsing your work and going WTF… my style, go to the best source first… I wrote about this early on….my feeling was a vast coldness and a “howling wind” behind it in the distance and then out of the Arctic land comes this warm calm cool collect velvety voice. A light in the tundra. (I pictured very intense eyes too.) . But over the years and consults…. I have felt a slight shift. Something has settled down. There is still a restlessness, a wind but it’s not howling. You don’t reveal a bit of that in your voice and I can’t see your face. It’s a sense I get. My instinct is that there was an injustice, it got your attention and it is now in your past. I don’t think the shift is or was the therapy or a woman.
My second thought is that it might be you have moved closer towards your goal. You are getting results.
Or both.
Am I right in that something inside you has settled a bit? Shifted slightly? It’s subtle but it’s there.
If you don’t post this then I will get satisfaction that you read this. Me to you.
If you do post this, then this is how I think with others. Someone could be boasting about this great trip with their husband but I will get this feeling that there’s actually a chink in the marriage.
You described Contagion as going below the surface. That’s where I made a big mistake with my ex. He was handsome, intelligent, creative, romantic and love bombed me. Something was not right. I sensed it but pushed it aside as I wanted to believe it. I was complicit in my downfall.
I am not psychic, no no no. But often my instincts are right.
If I am right about you, it’s positive whatever has happened over time. And you know I am a loyal friend lower and big fan of you so… good.
Hi Contagious,
“I wrote about this early on….my feeling was a vast coldness and a “howling wind” behind it in the distance and then out of the Arctic land comes this warm calm cool collect velvety voice. A light in the tundra. (I pictured very intense eyes too.) .”
That is beautiful, and it is very interesting. Makes me curious what other contagion majorities sense from Mr. Tudor, knowing it is him…it would also be interesting to meet him not knowing…and see how that works…what is felt?
Correct me if I’m wrong. Can this self-defense mechanism be a consequence of wounding (and threats to control) even if the victim has shown willingness to reconcile or restore communication?
Simply put : The victim wouldn’t reject him. But he knows her self-respect is untamable.
Could this be the reason for choosing such “safe” hoovers?
Thank you.
You’ll hear my voice before the year ends without a doubt. The sound is deep in the dark
The narcissism perceives that the individual will be problematic concerning the assertion of control in a direct scenario. That does not mean that the narcissism is necessarily correct, simply how it perceives the individual, hence the adopted approach.
Help me understand HG.
Even though frequent, these indirect hoovers only happen when he sees me appreciating videos of a certain man. They are a jealous reaction, not an action. At least 95% of the time.
What’s more, the reaction comes quickly… 30 minutes, an hour… 2 hours.
It’s no coincidence.
Is this just a way for the narcissist to assert control and reclaim attention moment by moment, or is there a hidden desire to slowly come back?
Logic tells me it’s just competition with that man, or an attempt to get me to text/call/chase him, but I don’t trust my logic on this…
Show me how yours works. And stop me if I’m asking too much.
Thanks x
The hoovers are deployed to assert control over(and potentially draw fuel) on a moment by moment basis.
I would encourage you to organise a consultation so I can explain this for you in detail to ensure you understand what is happening.
Looking forward to consult with the maestro.
Looking forward to consulting with the maestro.
HG approves.
Hello HG, is there anyway that you can make the children on here behave themselves? It’s not a very nice place to come to at the moment. Most of us come here for your help, not for this nastiness. It just gives off a bad vibe, that’s all. Thanking you.
Of course I can.
Yes you can!
Hello charlycahy, there must be something in the air!
I have noticed that there has been an influx of people on here and on HG’s YouTube channel recently that spout nothing but negativity and hostility.
It appears that HG has a following of, in my opinion, a certain amount of unpleasant individuals, those who relish in making offensive remarks, enter into others battles when it is completely unnecessary and engage in blatant bullying, I have witnessed less odious behaviour on a child’s playground.
We all have our own thoughts and opinions, however those of us who are wise will endeavour to keep them to ourselves, or debate in an adult manner, especially in public where ones vile comments can upset or offend others.
When you take a step back and watch from a distance it is truly enlightening what you are able see.
Most of us have come to HG in order to escape a narcissist and regain our confidence, educate ourselves and live a better, a more peaceful life.
Is it too much to ask for others who understand to support?
Hello spokesperson for the “most of us”, CharlyCahy. Please tell “most of us” that no one is holding a gun to the “most of us” head forcing “most of us” to read what “most of us” don’t want to. In case you and “most of us” didn’t notice — the blog is huuuuge just keep walking to your destination.
Hello H.G.
If I were to adopt your hierarchical definitions of the types of narcissists and superimpose the structure onto empaths, instead of narcissists, I might be classified as an upper, greater emapth.
Crude example, but it occurs to me that narcissists and empaths might be something akin to a tree in that the roots mirror the branching patterns of the trunk and limbs. Empathy is as deep and profound as narcissism is vast and grand.
I have known and had relationshps of varying natures with many highly intellgent greater narcissists, a number of them with comorbid psychopathy. I realize it is inaccurate to call them true friends or trusted partners, but still, at times, they do behave the part, and treat me accordingly. Usually, the fuel I am providing is apparent, and I can feel them, their energy, change as they devour it. I also sense the color I am currently painted; black or white.
However, at times, what I sense coming from them is different. It is not idealization, nor devaluation, but something in between, a hyrid of sorts.
My question is: Can you, personally, paint someone gray? Not black or white?
My friends don’t possess your level of awareness or understanding and have not been able to fully digest the meaning of the question and provide an answer much lesshave a conversation about it.
Due in part to empathy and a rational mind to balance/counteract my emotional thinking, if I were to pose the question to myself, I am not sure if I could paint someone black or white because everyone is a unique shade of gray.
Second question: I have noticed that the level of natural sexual chemistry with someone is linked to the strength of their narcissism. Have you experienced something similar?
Hello Calm Cobra,
There is no classification as an Upper Greater Empath but your grandiosity is noted.
People are painted black or white. I do not deal in shades of grey.
I do not understand your second question.
Me, my(self )& I
Comment by “Upper Greater Empath”: 19 out of 298 words = 6.4 per cent
Reply by Narcissist-In-Residence: 2 out of 38 words = 5.3 per cent
HG, would you like to up your quota to clinch this?
No.
HG, the Devil’s Pitchfork article is hard to find. I can only find a title and a png file. Can you provide a link. Cheers.
Hello again, HG!
I tried posting this earlier but I’m not sure it worked, so please only approve one, if you get two!
I like this open question forum, thanks.
(1) Also, thanks for your recent burst of roasts and the Henry VIII Tudor-Wiferscopes!
(2) Question: have you ever done some naughty, psychopath things to a neighbour as an adult? How many times and how many different neighbours, if so? And if it’s not too close to the bone, when was the last naughty thing you did against a neighbour?
(3) I had a dream that I walked through a door at a party into a penthouse room with you sitting back to the window, at a black marble table! I read your restraint story, which mentioned a penthouse. Now get this: there was a cityscape in the dusk, this room was level with the roof tops and higher than many. There was a huge bolt of lightning behind a spire, centrally behind your back. I don’t know what you look like, so my unconscious made something up. I got the knowing, somehow, that you had a dungeon beneath the room and I scarpered like Alan Partridge: “Lynne! These are sex people!” I don’t eat cheese very often, so it wasn’t that. I got out of there ASAP then woke up. I’ve seen others mention you in dreams. What’s that about?
(4) Was listening to man on YT talking about his cocaine addiction and bipolar disorder. Couldn’t finish because his voice was monotonous and his accounts of mania sounded like raging narcissism to me. I know outer stressors (and comorbidities like this?) can bring narcissistic traits to the fore. I gather this has been covered before, but can someone be bipolar and a narcissist? I mean, I would imagine so! But they say it’s their bipolar. This bloke was saying he takes responsibilities for his worst mania decisions in his 20’s but perhaps that could be his facade, if he’s a ….what? …possible lower mid ranger?
Thanks for any insights you might be compelled to offer! Best wishes you and everyone here.
1. You are welcome.
2. I have done so many years ago. Recently, I either do not have neighbours or where I do, they have not posed an issue which requires the application of a malign manipulation.
3. You want to be governed by your glorious host.
4. I would not be in a position other than make a determination about him from the evidence offered. Comrobid conditions can arise in relation to narcissism, but more often they are used as an excuse for the narcissism.
Mr. Tudor says, “Comorbid conditions can arise in relation to narcissism, but more often they are used as an excuse for the narcissism.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you for that! I knew it!
Hi HG: when you say “ used as an excuse for the narcissism…
1. Are you referring to the psychology field or the narcissist or both?
2. How accurate do you think most psychologists are at diagnosing narcissism?
3. Don’t some comorbidities overlap a lot? Take psychopathy and narcissism or a narcissistic psychopath….
4. Have you read a diagnosis of someone famous such as a Ted Bundy who was diagnosed with psychopathy by Dr Hare. Now perhaps that is all he was seeking to test. ???
5. If yes to no. 4, who?
I am interested because my best friend has a daughter who has been diagnosed with BPD and also she is autistic. Doctors say to her it can overlap as she is 20. She has been hell. Suicidal idealization, cutting, physically attacks my friend, smashes things, screams. Severely depressed. In and out of “ residential” won’t work, drive, go to school. Demands things then throws a fit if not provided and constant constant constant needs of attention. A lot of her behavior shows no empathy, she recently attacked the puppy. And harmed my friend. 6 years. It’s so sad. Doctors change meds all the time. She is in 5 day a week “ wrap around therapy now.” Nothing seems to work and I am hoping the intense therapy will. I love them both and realize she is sick but it seems every doctor she meets says something different. The hospital last month, the doctor said bipolar but she was tested, had an MRI, it’s not bipolar. She had a formal diagnosis. I just think it’s hard to find the right doctor with cluster B.
1. By the narcissist.
2. In broad brush terms, it is often missed.
3. Yes.
4. Not that particular diagnosis.
Thank you HG. I read an article on vengeance and punishment in BPD. The more I read, the more I agree with you. I know 3 “BPD”. Two you said are LMN. One I know is. But to be fair, cluster B is a cluster f$ck I think. And DBT has promising results…. So?
I think it’s more important to recognize abuse is abuse is abuse and cut it out of your life.
Thank you
Hi Contagious,
That was what I was trying to drive at in our earlier conversation about psychosis in narcs. My mother has been diagnosed with Mood Disorder and I don’t believe it. I know that she’s a narcissist and has been misdiagnosed. Then she uses that diagnosis to garner sympathy and as a way to excuse her behavior. Woe is her. She can’t help her behaviors because she has a mood disorder and you have to feel bad for her. I don’t buy it anymore.
I also had a disabled brother. He was never officially diagnosed with autism but he might’ve had it. He was born in the early 60s and was diagnosed as mentally retarded. He was probably at the level of a 5th grader. He was an absolutely wonderful human being. He was my intervener. He and I took on the responsibility of being my mother’s caregiver. He was her scapegoat. I was the golden child. He was a tortured soul. But his empathy was still evident.
I’m sorry your friend is going through this. It must break her heart. The way you describe it, it does sound like there’s a lack of empathy there. I hope your friend gets the resolution she needs.
Hi Leigh:
Yes what happened to all the “ intellectually challenged”? All autistic today and in the past no autism. My neighbor was intellectually challenged. I met her 30 years ago. She calls me her best friend and attorney. I admit at first it was sort of charity but I liked her. Then I became a lifelong friend of hers and her family. I value her. There is a beauty there that comforts me. An intelligence that is not based on IQ. For example we met one of the largest leaders of a hedge fund a few years back. He was walking his dog by her parents house. He’s worth billions. She said hello to the dog but was curt to him. I said hello too. I said to her “who is he” as he looked familiar. She said his name and I realized he was on the cover of the LA Times. Then she said he is a jerk but his dog is nice. She saw right through him. How many others do? She had no respect for him yet how many 1000s kissed/kisses his ass. I will take this genuine friendship and her over many.
I am not a bit surprised your brother was the intervenor Leigh. God Bless him.
Hello HG, thanks for your replies. I had not seen them until now, quite by accident. I’ve started perusing the blog and ‘Question Me’ section, as an alternative to gawping at YouTube.
Yes, I could have guessed you don’t have neighbours now.
Not sure I want to be governed 😀 I ran off! Perhaps I was being nosey and found more than I bargained for.
Yes. It’s a bit of a minefield, the old diagnosis field. Thanks again!
You are welcome, do keep reading and contributing.
Your Alan Partridge reference made me chuckle, M. Rowan! Ps I came across an interesting therapist Dr Leslie Ellis recently who specialises in dreams. I’ve found a few useful things reading her blog.
Jade: I ama chronic lucid dreamer since childhood. I shall look her up! Deepest thanks!
My pleasure Contagious. I’ve always been fascinated by dreams and dream a lot too, sometimes lucidly. Cool that you do! I generally enjoy dreaming, especially lucid ones.
I’ve started recording them recently and will use her recommendations to delve deeper. My dreams are very weird (especially on anti depressants) probably like a lot of people’s but I do feel a sense of reassurance in them recently which she mentions in her blog too. Often they seem to be reminding me of standing up for myself, staying away from certain people etc.
Ps eggshell therapy (Imi Lo) on YT got me onto her.. imi’s got really great articles and interviews that you’d enjoy I think.
Hi Jade:
Look up old conversations on dreams under Contagion. We strayed way off topic but I feel contagions and dreaming are connected. Since childhood my dreams have been odd. FYI I had a dream about my best friends murder. A clock kept appearing with 2:17. At trial the LA coroner said she died between 2 and 2:30. That’s just one of mine but when I awoke I was screaming and got on my knees and asked God, never again please. It was so cold. So cold. This experience is one of many but not common. HG says coincidence but I have had too many to believe that. I have searched my whole life so little known but regular lucid dreaming is rare. What I have learned is write it down. Listen to it. You will find answers there:)
Thanks Contagious.. that’s really helpful.. I always want to learn more. I’ve always been suvb an avid and regular dreamer (and sometimes lucid and premonition) and have never met anyone else that interested in dreams. I’ve started writing them down recently since discovering Dr Leslie Ellis, the dream therapist that I spoke about. Im definitely noticing how my dreams are often very validating recently. I had a very clear one a few nights ago about my mum doing what suited her and I just left .. it felt really good. Off to read more in contagion/ dream comments!!
Hello Jade, glad you had a wee chuckle there! 😀
Hehe.
Hello again, Jade! I forgot to say thank you for the recommendation too.
Pleasure Mari.
Hello again HG,
I appreciate this open question invitation and I’ve enjoyed your recent flurry of roasts and Henry VIII wife Tudorscopes! Wiferscopes, thanks for all.
(1) Have you ever done a naughty psychopath thing to a neighbour?
(2) I would bet you’ve covered this: what of diagnoses like ‘bipolar’ mixed with NPD? I gather that would be entirely possible? I am currently listening to a bloke called David Funes, chatting about himself on someone’s YT channel. He’s billed as a ‘Bipolar Cocaine Addict’ but I can’t listen to any more, because his tales of ‘mania’ sound more like raging narcissism and his voice is annoying me.
He had a lack of control environment as a child, with his first memory being at 4 y/o of his father strangling his mother, or trying to. His father was an errant, absent, party and drug man. David’s formative years describe a distinct split between “that-kind-of-thing” an overly strict, biblical upbringing with his stepfather in later childhood.
I suspect that at least some bipolar cases and other stuff like ADHD are all well and good, but do some sufferers also have NPD, or narcissistic personalities? Surely not all people diagnosed with bipolar disorder are total drug addict criminal and wreckless infidels? I suspect bipolar might come from a splitting off at some point in childhood, with that being unidentified and unresolved. Anyway, he’s going on like ‘the mania made me do it’ and whilst I understand that mania causes wreckless episodes, I do wonder…I mean, God forbid we accuse someone with bipolar of being a raging narcissist to boot. I guess the narcissistic traits might come to the fore by very nature of the stress this condition generates in today’s world.
(3) I know you say ‘lay off the cheese’ with dreams, but I rarely eat cheese! I had a dream of you many months ago (no idea what you look like, so my unconscious made it up) and you were in a penthouse as per your recent ‘restraint’ post. you were at a black marble desk with your back to a city scape and a bolt of lightning flashed behind you, also behind a tall spire and there were SL1210 decks in the room, with someone playing records on them (?!) and I suddenly got the insight there was an S&M dungeon downstairs somewhere, got the fear and hopped it! I entered the dream through a doorway from another dream where I was at a party and someone took me to your gaff and I ran off! hahaha. Alan Partridge style: “Lynne! These are sex people!”
BYE.
Dear Hg,
When I was 12-13 my father complained many times that my mother refused to have sex with him.
When I was 16-17-18 she asked me to watch porn videos with her (obviously we never did).
Years ago he asked me to buy him Viagra online
He asked (joking and not) me to post pics of her (dressed) on cuckold forums. (Never did)
I think my father is a victim narcissist .
What could be the reason behind these behaviors?
If you mean why is your father a narcissist, see my video What Makes a Narcissist.
If you mean why is your suspected narcissist father engaging in these actions it is because he is pursuing The Prime Aims, driven by a sense of entitlement, lack of accountability, poor boundary recognition and an absence of emotional empathy. If you require a more detailed breakdown FDA, I would encourage you to organise either an email or audio consultation.
HG. I found your video on the psychopathic empath very interesting. I searched the blog here but did not find anything about it.
Here is a link from YouTube to it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phYRhfyZCaQ
A few questions.
1-Is the psychopathic empath different to the dark empath in the way they do not manipulate but protect people (I read how you believe dark empaths are in fact narcissists)?
2-Is the psychopathic empath maybe what Carl Jung suggested when the empath snaps? Or is this the empathic supernova?
(see this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXtFLpj3jyM )
3- Will you add information here on your blog about the psychopathic empath?
Thanks in advance
1. Yes, they are different.
2. I am not familiar with what Jung stated and have not had opportunity to watch the linked the video.
3. Possibly.
HG,
Carl Jung never wrote about empaths. I have seen these recent videos in my YT feed, where someone is using Jung’s name , and *supposed* work on empaths – when really they are just hijacking the current interest in the subject of empaths.
I always avoided those videos, as I have some familiarity with Jung’s work – until Anna’s post. I clicked the link and listened for about 2 minutes, but couldn’t do more because of the misrepresentation of Jung’s work.
I appreciate that clarification WC.
Hello again. H. G. Tudor. 1) Please explain, am I damn well obliged to defend myself from narcissists all my life? Change my emotional thinking? Stop being myself? I’m trying. But clashes are inevitable and constant. Each time I break off these relationships earlier and earlier, but any clash throws me off track. And I never believe that I’m right, I try not to listen to my intuition (I don’t want to be paranoid), but then I suffer from it. After all, from the very beginning I feel something is wrong, but ALWAYS try to convince myself that it just seemed that way to me. Remember the story about my boss? You know what saved me – sports. I went to fitness. Everything was great. It really switched me on. If not for one thing. My trainer – turned out to be a narcissist. The Lesser is a narcissist. Since I move in completely different circles, I have only had experience interacting with Mid Range and Greater Narcissists. It’s just great, now I know everyone. 2) But why do I need this happiness? Why and for what? At first, it seemed to me that we had mutual sympathy. It’s a shame that since the time of my main narcissist, no one has hurt me like that. And then, just monstrous criticism began, constant from his side (control control) and cold. Alternating cold and warmth. And this had a simply monstrous powerful effect on me. If before that, there was just “sympathy”, then after that I felt like a bunch of hooks were stuck in me and they were being pulled. He wrote me messages between training sessions, sent photos, some jokes, as if some hints about a relationship (and always only hints). Our training sessions turned into constant showdowns, he provokes, I react. And then he told me that he killed a man (as if it was self-defense), then that he beat women (as if it was a collection agency for work). Even this didn’t stop me (how horrible). But it stopped me when I thought that our relationship was finally becoming warmer and he made another comment on the topic of “it’s so difficult with you, I prepare for training with you every time…” Either because I had my period, or I didn’t expect it, or it was painful, but I burst into tears in front of him. After that, I wrote that I no longer wanted to continue training with him. He said, “If you change your mind, you can come back. All the best to you.” And about the book (which he recommended to me, “Read it, it’s really interesting”). I had a breakdown when I wrote him a message: “Even though we didn’t manage to train, we are clearly similar in our choice of books. Thanks for the recommendation.” He replied, “I’m glad.” 3) And here again, as I understand it, he didn’t want any kind of relationship with me, only to mock (fuel) at trainings and in correspondence between? It’s been a month since I left. We are on each other’s social networks and do not react to each other. 4) Is this the end? Am I right in thinking that if he is The Lesser a narcissist and after such a departure he will not do anything? 4) In my country there is an expression “The barn burned down, so let the hut burn.” I don’t know if it is possible to translate it normally into English without losing the meaning. All my chronic diseases have worsened. Physical pain, like any pain in general, makes us make wrong decisions. And given emotional thinking – just turn off the lights. I went to complain about my physical condition to the head of my clinic, about whom I wrote to you earlier. (He is also a doctor, specializing in my disease) and in short, I burst into tears in front of him. (It’s just brutal, although I don’t care). And I’m thinking, “Damn it, you did everything to stop him from getting into your head. You finally built some distance. Everything was fine, you’re working. And then you provoke him yourself.” In general, he supported me (surprisingly). But now, of course, I’m worried that he might try to take me again. (Although perhaps his “dark period” is over, everything is fine with the fuel, and he won’t bother me). Thanks to him for his support, but I’m a little worried. 5) H.G. Tudor Don’t you think that I’m in some kind of vicious circle? Where I fight off one narcissist and run to another, then return to the previous one for help, then a new one, then the previous one after him. The network is growing. Is there at least some hope that all this will end? 6) I’m thinking, if narcissists are still drawn to me, maybe it’s fate? Maybe there is no other way? Then I want more. A full-fledged relationship, sex. And not a long history of verbal manipulation, correspondence, calls, fantasies. Please remind me or where I can read why a narcissist will never marry a super empath? 7) None of the narcissists give me relationships. We are always either classmates, colleagues, a boss and a subordinate, a coach and a mentee. It’s always like that. The only way out I have found for myself is to leave and break off this contact. They never give me more. But I think, I still suffer from the clash and contact one way or another. Maybe then, so that at least it won’t be so offensive, I will also start to get at least something from this? I want a relationship. Or is it not worth hoping for? A disaster in general.
Hello again. H. G. Tudor. 1) Please explain, am I damn well obliged to defend myself from narcissists all my life? Change my emotional thinking? Stop being myself? I’m trying. But clashes are inevitable and constant. Each time I break off these relationships earlier and earlier, but any clash throws me off track. And I never believe that I’m right, I try not to listen to my intuition (I don’t want to be paranoid), but then I suffer from it. After all, from the very beginning I feel something is wrong, but ALWAYS try to convince myself that it just seemed that way to me. Remember the story about my boss? You know what saved me – sports. I went to fitness. Everything was great. It really switched me on. If not for one thing. My trainer – turned out to be a narcissist. The Lesser is a narcissist. Since I move in completely different circles, I have only had experience interacting with Mid Range and Greater Narcissists. It’s just great, now I know everyone.
2) But why do I need this happiness? Why and for what? At first, it seemed to me that we had mutual sympathy. It’s a shame that since the time of my main narcissist, no one has hurt me like that. And then, just monstrous criticism began, constant from his side (control control) and cold. Alternating cold and warmth. And this had a simply monstrous powerful effect on me. If before that, there was just “sympathy”, then after that I felt like a bunch of hooks were stuck in me and they were being pulled. He wrote me messages between training sessions, sent photos, some jokes, as if some hints about a relationship (and always only hints). Our training sessions turned into constant showdowns, he provokes, I react. And then he told me that he killed a man (as if it was self-defense), then that he beat women (as if it was a collection agency for work). Even this didn’t stop me (how horrible). But it stopped me when I thought that our relationship was finally becoming warmer and he made another comment on the topic of “it’s so difficult with you, I prepare for training with you every time…” Either because I had my period, or I didn’t expect it, or it was painful, but I burst into tears in front of him. After that, I wrote that I no longer wanted to continue training with him. He said, “If you change your mind, you can come back. All the best to you.” And about the book (which he recommended to me, “Read it, it’s really interesting”). I had a breakdown when I wrote him a message: “Even though we didn’t manage to train, we are clearly similar in our choice of books. Thanks for the recommendation.” He replied, “I’m glad.” 3) And here again, as I understand it, he didn’t want any kind of relationship with me, only to mock (fuel) at trainings and in correspondence between? It’s been a month since I left. We are on each other’s social networks and do not react to each other. 4) Is this the end? Am I right in thinking that if he is The Lesser a narcissist and after such a departure he will not do anything?
4) In my country there is an expression “The barn burned down, so let the hut burn.” I don’t know if it is possible to translate it normally into English without losing the meaning. All my chronic diseases have worsened. Physical pain, like any pain in general, makes us make wrong decisions. And given emotional thinking – just turn off the lights. I went to complain about my physical condition to the head of my clinic, about whom I wrote to you earlier. (He is also a doctor, specializing in my disease) and in short, I burst into tears in front of him. (It’s just brutal, although I don’t care). And I’m thinking, “Damn it, you did everything to stop him from getting into your head. You finally built some distance. Everything was fine, you’re working. And then you provoke him yourself.” In general, he supported me (surprisingly). But now, of course, I’m worried that he might try to take me again. (Although perhaps his “dark period” is over, everything is fine with the fuel, and he won’t bother me). Thanks to him for his support, but I’m a little worried.
5) H.G. Tudor Don’t you think that I’m in some kind of vicious circle? Where I fight off one narcissist and run to another, then return to the previous one for help, then a new one, then the previous one after him. The network is growing. Is there at least some hope that all this will end?
6) I’m thinking, if narcissists are still drawn to me, maybe it’s fate? Maybe there is no other way? Then I want more. A full-fledged relationship, sex. And not a long history of verbal manipulation, correspondence, calls, fantasies. Please remind me or where I can read why a narcissist will never marry a super empath?
7) None of the narcissists give me relationships. We are always either classmates, colleagues, a boss and a subordinate, a coach and a mentee. It’s always like that. The only way out I have found for myself is to leave and break off this contact. They never give me more. But I think, I still suffer from the clash and contact one way or another. Maybe then, so that at least it won’t be so offensive, I will also start to get at least something from this? I want a relationship. Or is it not worth hoping for?
A disaster in general.
I recommend you organise an audio consultation as a matter of priority.
Thanks for the answer H.G. Tudor. Is it possible? https://narcsite.com/private-e-mail-consultation/ E-Mail Consultations
You can use either although audio consultation would be best given the detail you’ve provided and the multiplicity of questions you’ve asked
Since I don’t speak English, an audio consultation will be problematic. So I’ll try writing.
In general, I imagined for a second that I knew English and would take a consultation. It’s damn scary. And embarrassing. Not to make the proper impression on you. Talking to you. It seems to me that even those who speak English well, perhaps, lose the gift of speech during consultations. This is all clearly my narcissistic part speaking in me))
HG good morning!
I highly enjoyed the Catharine of Aragon analysis. I had no idea her role in history beyond being Henry VIII’s wife and the request for an annulment leading to England’s reformation. I would love it if you analyzed other great women in history! Here’s my wish list of some great women throughout history who made significant contributions to various fields who I admire and would love to hear more about:
1. Elizabeth I
2. Marie Curie
3. Sojourner Truth
4. Harriett Tubman
5. Savitraibai Phule
6. Billie Jean King
7. Sacagawee
8. Hypatia
9. Jane Goodall
10. Joan of Arc
11. Sister Catrini
*12. Mother Theresa
* controversial now
I wonder if empathy was what drove them to mark their roles in history?
Brave women in a man’s world. Always love to hear about a woman changing the world. Thank you for Catharine’s story!
Duly noted. I am pleased you have been enjoying the series.
Hello HG:
It’s also interesting that America’s founding fathers were all first or second generation from England save one John Jay who had a French grandparent and most had ties to the Pilgrims who left England for religious prosecution. Be interesting to hear the take on them. I always used to say to my British husband and friends when discussing the USA… who created us? 😝
And what’s interesting about the British founding father families is the Puritans broke from their government and religion to create their own new world. And their children broke from their government to do it themselves. Both British in original origin but those who created America looked to themselves both in discovering the country and in founding it. I think this tradition remains no many how many new people from other countries arrive. It starts from the top. What is interesting is was American founded by narcs? Or, most likely that came later as narcs are attracted to politics, control, power. Honest Abe. George Washington doubtful . Today, yes. But we are a country found and established by rebels. A different sort. Many that followed were seeking opportunity from poverty. Hoping to make a better life. Also people who fled. That is America. I feel today the American dream Is not the same. Alive as tech giants proved but not with the same capacity it once had. It’s probably simplistic but those who flee… narcs who withdraw from control or normals fleeing oppression or empaths with their heart in a cause or all? Or who knows?
Josephina💕try the audio consultation first, your English is good, and if you still struggle you can always switch to Email and then again to audio and so on and so forth. You are clearly in need of HG’s supportive assistance. Your condition, shared via the comments, is worrying and you must do something about it. You’ve postponed taking care of yourself enough. (I’m wondering, are you from Japan? Your native language japanese?) Please stop being so critical of yourself! You’re a lovely lady and you need answers to your complex situation! In the condition you’re in at the moment you will not be capable of seeing through on your own even though you are a professional in that field, you need an outside perspective of another professional when it comes to your own situation and HG is the best professional you can get! It is common that empaths are absolutely capable of helping others but will struggle to do the same for themselves. It is normal because you are mentally, physically and emotionally whole heartedly involved! Try the audio consultation and switch to Email if needed. We all cross our fingers for you!!!🫶🌷🌸
Hi HG
There is a lot of noise on attachment styles lately.
Where as before everyone’s ex was a Narc , the new thing is a dismissive/ fearful avoidant .
I’ve read and listened to some of that . It sounds very much the same as the way a Narc does things . Hot cold , hoovers etc but with feelings . Yet the end product is the same for those involved. Pain .
Can you enlighten me on the difference here .
Many thanks
Kiki
Hello Kiki, I do not utilise attachment styles in my work.
Hello Josephina,
“Please remind me or where I can read why a narcissist will never marry a super empath?” You can find this info under the article named “Fantasy World”.
Hi Josephine: a consult a consult a consult. It’s the best. it’s unfortunate you have encountered a variety of narcissists. I feel I had one but I spent 12 years with him soooooo… don’t be hard on yourself. Do the empath detector too as learning more about YOU will help! And if this helps: I refused to live with my now ex husband. I thought I could “ manage” the narcissism or abuse by visiting his country and staying in mine, 6000 miles away…. as I noticed he was a good traveling partner and not abusive when being “ wined and dined” . He even sang that Syd Barrett song! Yes! ….as opposed to the day to day where he would be great for a long period of time then out of the blue, pure hell. I hate drama and he was my first dramatic erratic relationship and without HG, I don’t know where I would be BUT not better. Not better. The management failed as all my ex wanted or rather demanded was to come back and be with me on a day to day. He was right as we were married but NO WAY. My ex tried everything but I am good at boundaries. Plus my son had left combat duty as a Marine and he was starting school and living with me and I worried that my son would harm my ex. Real possibility and then my son’s life would be harmed. A mother’s love is better than no contact, lol. …. So we divorced. Then…. I wanted a positive closure and even a friendship as I am friends with all of my exes. When I say this, not day to day chums. My sons father and his gf and daughter spend holidays with me, as do my former step children….one ex is my mentor who I speak to once a year unless I have a legal career question. One, I love his wife and family and go to his music festivals. He sometimes gets me tickets. But I am not close friends where we talk a lot… but they would speak highly of me and me them. Anyone I take into my heart, I love forever even my ex narc. Loving someone and being with them are not mutually inclusive. As to friendship? Nope. My ex hates me, set out for revenge and even the police in the UK called me here in California to offer “support and protection. “ This was a year ago. Be careful with narcs. I get “ no contact” but I also want to be immune to them. I told HG that I want to burn until my ex is naked on his knees begging forgiveness and even then I don’t blink an eye. HG said that’s not possible. But I have moved forward. My ex is in the past. I am content being single. I am blessed with love in my life even if no IPSS. I like peace. And most of the memories are good of my ex. I categorize my marriage as the French Revolution marriage… it was the best of times, it was the worst of times… I don’t know if any of this helps but consulting with HG is your best hope!
Contagious Thank you for sharing your story. It was helpful for me. Thank you for your support.
Always and yay! If I can help another especially someone like you, warms my heart:)
Jordyguin 🖐 Japan? I would like to of course!!…but no)))) 😅
Thanks for the support and advice. I will definitely use the consultation H.G. Tudor as soon as I resolve all the technical difficulties.
Well done Contagious! 👏
Thank you Jade! I will take the complement as moving on is not easy but worthwhile!
Compliment.
Absolutely 👌💯
Wow. Thanks HG. After our sessions you know that the complement is yours. I am free!
It’s compliment, not complement.
Hi
I couldn’t help replying to you . I mean this kindly but your thoughts and emotions are all over the place here .
Step back a moment .
I’ve felt just like you , everyone was a narcissist after the real main one mangled me .
Yes it possible but probably not true .
You may be projecting or your walls are built high you simply don’t trust anyone anymore. I don’t .
I don’t know from your post if there was a main player first then you got involved with gym guy .
You need space , at least a year to work on your feelings .
HG is brilliant but he is not a therapist.
Why he doesn’t feel empathy or emotions . His words are true , insights incredible but sometimes we need therapy too to deal with our feelings emotions.
Much love 💕
Kiki
Hi Kiki. Thanks for your feedback. I need support now.
1) Yes, there was the main psychopath of my life (six years), and after him all the others.
2) I am a doctor, a psychiatrist. All my narcissists were from the medical community, most of them were psychiatrists. So it is not surprising that there are so many of them in this field. As a rule, not very healthy people go into medicine. Alas. The trainer is an exception))
3) Of course, I work with a psychologist. I have been in therapy for several years. But, if I am not mistaken, Herbert Tudor wrote about this that there are very few knowledgeable psychotherapists. It is very difficult to understand what it is if you have never encountered it. Many psychologists devalue the suffering of victims of narcissistic abuse and cannot believe that everything said really took place. Therefore, their help can be divided into two parts. I am an informed psychotherapist, I help others, but I apparently can’t help myself. 4) I will connect EMDR to my treatment, maybe it will help me with the injury better. + I need to make a card, I still want to get a consultation H.G. Tudor
Hello HG,
can a narcissist use a sustained devaluation in friendship?
His need for positive AND negative fuel is becoming stronger every day.
The extraction is exahusting for me because it is rapidly alternate… positive, 1 min later negative etc..
He is starting to humiliate me with my other friends, MY circle.
This started essentially after our vacation togheter.
A week in hotel. Same room, different beds.
Hello CSE, the shelf dynamic between narcissist and friend (NISS) means that corrective devaluations are used, as opposed to a sustained devaluation period. Naturally, there can be repeated instances of corrective devaluations which take place over a short period of time or over a lengthier period of time, but they remain corrective devaluations.
Thank you.
Dear HG,
If a man calls a woman “babe” at the beginning of relationship, considering I’m not 20 years old. Is it a belittlement ? Or it’s okay? I used to like it, before I learned about narcissists. Now, I’m not sure.
It depends who is saying it, you will need to consider it alongside a range of other behaviours.
It might be a form of flattery from a narcissist, it might be belittlement from a narcissist. It might be an habitual epitaph used by a normal who doesn’t really think about who is on the receiving end (a bit like calling someone mate even when you do not know them). It might be intended as a compliment even in misplaced.
I see. Thank you for reply, HG.
It might be just a regular older American, lol
No, he is from Germany, and he is 36, not that old.
Dear Arya0901,
Tell him you don’t like being called “babe”, see what he does, then you’ll know
That is so true! I told two different narcs not to call me one version of babe or another and wow, did they show their true colors! At the times when these things happened, I know nothing of narcissism, so didn’t realize I should’ve run right there. Now if similar happened, the end. In fact now if someone called me babe at all I’d view it through the lens of narcissism and it likely wouldn’t get to asking them not to. Great suggestion Bubbles!
Sorry for the autocorrect typos. I proof-read and reproof-read that comment before sending and a couple are still there! I swear my phone changes things after sending.
Dearest AV,
Thank you lovely one.
It’s that simple AV. It’s a question of respect, respect me, of what I ask of you, or you can bugga off. It’s not that difficult. They’ll soon get the message. If they don’t respect you the first time, they never will! Set your standards high, the moment you let your guard down, they’re in .
Don’t ask me how I know haha
💕
Aww, Bubbles! Your comment made my day! Thank you so much! I will take your advice and I will not ask how you know to give it! 💕
Dear Bubbles,
Yes, I did tell him that, and he seems fine. I don’t think he is a narcissist, though, too early to say for sure. Will see.
The reason, I’ve asked, cause both my ex confirmed narcs, called me babe. Though my ex husband also was often calling me by a word, which translates in English like “a little bunny”.
I saw HG’s video, where he says narcissists avoid using real names for their victims. Made me think about “babe” too.
Anyway, thank you for the reply, Bubbles. I hope you are doing good, considering recent loss in your life.
Dearest Arya0901,
If you don’t like it and you have asked them politely not to do it and they continue, end of story! Personally, I hate the word “babe”, it’s so basic and overused with no thought involved. Probably called all his exes the same.
If your current partner has stopped, then he respects you.
Respect is respect no matter what ! There is no justifying on their behalf “oh I was just joking”…. Huge RED flag !
You set your own standards and stick by them
It’s the same at a wedding, (we’ve discussed this before on the blog ) when the husband smooshes the cake in your face (why would any person in their right mind would want to do this to the person they supposedly love, is beyond me) and then he does it unexpectedly, cos HE thinks it’s funny. Run 🏃♀️ BIG NO NO !!!!
The weasel used to call me by my first name “initial”, I repeatedly corrected him, however he didn’t respect my wishes, narcs never do. He always referred to Mr Bubbles by his first name, funny about that. Anyhoo, I made him disappear into the horizon and he’s since become fatter and uglier…. Haha
Thank you Arya0901 for your kind wishes, losing both mum and our son has been hard. I’m focusing on other healthy postive avenues ! 🥰
HG,
Jordy has implied that I’ve broken rules and smeared you in my response to Susan in the ‘I second that emotion’ thread where I said to Susan, ‘i think we can agree, you received a very succinct response!’ I don’t believe I’ve done either.
I don’t want to clutter up that thread that Susan has posted on with a hostile back and forth, and I’m already sorry it’s taken a downhill turn because I was hoping Susan might return to it.
But I want to ask some questions of you, so I’ll do it here.
1) did I break a rule in my comment to Susan?
2) did I smear you in my post to Susan?
3) From your cursory reading of my comments, do you believe I’ve been showing ‘disgusting never ending ridiculous nauseating displays of my stupidity?’
4) have I been displaying immaturity and hence need to ‘grow (the fuck) up?’
I’m so excited, Mr. Tudor!!! I just listened to your interview with John Cooper and heard you’ll be releasing a book on psychopathy! I can hardly wait!!!
Indeed I am.
Hi HG, I’m aware you started this thread about ten years ago and wanted to ask (sorry if I’ve missed it mentioned elsewhere) but are you still in treatment with the good doctors? And if so, how’s it going from your angle?
I do not currently have involvement with the good doctors.
Thank you HG. 🙏 Have you shared here on the blog already about why you don’t see them anymore?
No.
Thank you HG. I have to ask:
1. Will you?
Yes.
Dear HG,
I’m looking forward to the answer to the reason why the good doctors have been dismissed from studying you farther! I bet they were disappointed by their dismissal. Do they still contact you to bring you back, or have you blocked them out of your life completely?
What about Dr. O? XX
Hi HG
First time blog commenter. My question is can the upper lesser ever present with a facade?
They are obvious in their behaviour, highly arguementative etc. They are known for their temperamental behaviour except from one particular group, who have never this this side. Apart from this, they fit in mostly with the criteria of being an upper lesser.
Hello CCM and welcome to the blog.
The Upper Lesser does not operate with a facade. This does not mean they are red of tooth and claw all of the time, but it means they do not manufacture a particular image by way of facade. If you would like certainty as to the classification of this person I suggest you use this https://narcsite.com/narc-detector-2/
The new TOW intro!!!!! I’m on the floor!!!Made my day I’m on endorphins for the rest of it!!!! Genius!!Lol I’m rewatching it, I can’t!
Hello Jordy,
I’m confused, are you a man or a woman? Why does WiserNow refer to you as him? Ofc, if you find this question too personal, you are free to ignore. I just recall a post, and I think it was yours, where you have described a dream how you met HG at grocery store. And I think only woman can write smth like that. In that regard, I don’t like English, cause pretty much at any other language, you can easily identify a gender based on endings of verbs etc.
I sound a bit mental here, toward the end. I just wondered if you left the endings our of boredom, whimsy, or something more logical and practical as per my primary theory. Ta!
Hi HG,
If I recall correctly I think you’ve mentioned before that there has been a slight positive change in your behaviour / thoughts (or slowing down of manipulation etc) in your private life since starting this blog / YT etc and interacting with your readers and viewers. I wonder how you feel when you think about your readers / viewers and about how you help them?
Thanks as always.
My readers and viewers are assets.
Thanks HG. I saw you recently saying to a commenter on your blog, to avoid dating sites. So am I right in thinking that you wouldn’t “care” as such, but know the pitfalls for empaths here (your assets) of dating sites and would give protective advise accordingly. Is that correct?
The provision of accurate advice benefits me. It also happens to benefit you.
That makes sense HG. I think people are realising that a lot of narcissistic advice out there, isn’t correct (or completely correct) a lot of the time, so you’re insights stands out. I’m finding your straightforward thinking and explanations here refreshing. I know I could do with being clearer in my own communication so it’s something I’ll work on as it benefits everyone. Also, I guess the narcs in our lives aren’t usually honest and as up front about serving themselves and being transactional, to whatever degree…
You are welcome.
Hello HG, would it irk you if I sometimes call you ‘Mr. T’? Too A-Teamy? A bit twee?
I’ve enjoyed your recent Tudorscopes, thank you very much. Also the Narc Island project.
Could you confirm or deny my theory as to why you have left the latter, plus Lily Allen and Tom Hardy incomplete?
Theory: because they haven’t met a sufficient viewing criterion, so you’ve canned them whilst you do something more important/likely to receive more views?
Sub-theories: a bit of deliberate cliff-hanging just because – or perhaps because you got bored or we’re too keen and it’s irritating. If we all gave Super Thanks as well as being keen, would it compel you to finish the sets? Or did you forget? I doubt that somehow.
HG is fine. If you wish to call me Mr T, that is a matter for you.
No, I have not forgotten. I have a finite amount of time and I seek to apply that with an appropriate return on the application of my time, if I do not think that that is happening, then I will change course. I may return to the subjects if the situation alters. A financial incentive naturally alters the nature of the return on investment.
Thank you very much. It’s as I thought, but you put it more succinctly…natch.
“We lost a beautiful blogger over that fiasco and instead ended up with you and Jordy, yes, you can take that as an insult if you like.”
It was very clear this was your opinion at the time.
“Stop speaking for and about me. If you must speak to me, don’t expect a reply”
I don’t mind if you reply or not.
“I did not insult anyone in the above referenced conversation.“
I made notes at the time.
THE KEY TO ENTRY
https://narcsite.com/2023/06/05/knowing-the-narcissist-the-key-to-entry/
DI – direct insult (but not said to J)
DIJ – direct insult and stated to J.
II – indirect insult
O – insulting others who’ve agreed with J (indirectly insulting J)
S – sarcasm (condescending, indirectly insulting)
RQ – rhetorical question (condescending, insulting)
(…) – further explanation, e.g. accusation within insult
Name: Date. Time
Let: June 13. 2017
Jordyguin, that’s a wonderful take on the narcissist’s perspective of a CoD. – S
The lack of empathy is obvious. – DI. (Implying narcissistic at worst, unempathic at best)
It’s so interesting to see the derision of an empathic school – S
AV: 14 June 2020
it was done with a complete lack of empathy. She either didn’t take into consideration the many CoDs on this blog, or she didn’t care. – DI (implying J is unempathic, inconsiderate or uncaring)
Let: 14 June 2118
The difference is not subtle and those who have reacted negatively to her statement are aware of that. Those drawn in by it, in my opinion, are not. – II, O (implying lack of perceptiveness in both J and supporters)
AV: June 21. 0000
It was a very lopsided appraisal – DI (implying unfairness/lack of awareness)
Leigh: June 21. 1622
Jordy made a broad sweeping comment about CoDs and it was not a fair assessment of them at all. DI (implying unfairness)
Leigh: June 21 1524
It was important to me to point out that she wasn’t describing the CoD accurately. DI (implying lack of understanding/ ignorance)
Let: June 22. 1925
I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to use the word “impressions” in different contexts. II (implying overbearing behaviour)
Try chalking another one up. II (implying manipulation)
… try being a little more cryptic. – S (implying inability to communicate / arcaneness)
The bottom line is, I’m not buying what you’re selling. Perhaps you should save your breath. II (implying disreputability)
Leigh: June 23. 1709
Your description is cold and callous and insensitive and most importantly, inaccurate. DIJ
Let: June 23. 2147
Your are right, I don’t buy bullshit. DIJ (suggesting lack of integrity)
Your expansion was nothing more than word salad, albeit trying to offer an explanation for said approach. – DIJ (inability to communicate, manipulation and potential narcissism)
I can only wonder what underlies it. II – (implying an undesirable factor underlying behaviour)
AV: June 24. 1036
The harshness is squarely on the person or persons who did it, not you. – DI (unkindness, meanness)
An opportunity to learn on a whole different level. – II (as narcsite learning is about narcissists and their behaviours this implies there’s been narcissism on display)
Leigh: June 24. 1851
What? How is it that by Will Smith staying, he’s acting like a victim? How do you connect those dots?- RQ (implying lack of logical thinking)
Leigh: June 24. 1905
Jordy didn’t make a fair assessment – DI (unfairness)
Leigh: June 27. 1539
subsequent responses, shined a spotlight on some things that needed to be seen. II. (Implying less savoury but important behaviours or characters, hitherto hidden, are being revealed – another insinuation of narcissism)
Leigh: June 27. 1853
If someone’s intentions are good but they’re actions/behaviors are toxic, that’s a red flag. Be mindful of their words not matching they’re actions. That’s another huge indicator. – II (CP has just said J’s intentions were good so comment implies toxic behaviours have been shown and narcissism is still an option)
AV: June 29. 0235
I do agree with your opinion of the situation. It’s being proven time and again. II (LET has already suggested J is showing narcissism, and as a support of that assessment, it’s also implying narcissism)
AV: July 1. 1735
I am moving on but will say in parting that our comments here, especially over time, can be highly indicative of who and what we are.
II (given previous comments, this is again implying narcissism has been on show, and therefore J is a narcissist.)
LET: july 7 0000
I have learned quite a bit from this thread which also lends itself to a certain sadness. – II (Implying other participants are not meeting important standards)
AV: july 7. 1609
no doubt that there are some who are enjoying it. – II (implying that some readers either enjoy it when others suffer, or are so competitive that all they care about is winning)
AA,
Just to clarify, I wasn’t implying. I was explicitly expressing my thoughts.
Thank you for stating this Leigh, it is the same for me. What is a bit surprising is the defense of one who was recently disrespecting and calling AA names. Odd.
AV,
I don’t know why AA continues to defend Jordy even though Jordy has not had nice things to say about her. I don’t why AA can’t see that Jordy was not innocent on the Key to Entry thread. I don’t know why she felt the need to show only our comments and not Jordy’s comments. Maybe AA will respond to my question below to help me understand.
This whole thread actually saddens me.
It is sad to me also.
Great questions, thank you for asking them.
Dear Leigh, Jordy and ALL who care to listen to my 2cents:
Let’s not be saddened or directed in ways that don’t suit our goals which is to be understand narcissism ( and well psychopathy) and stand TOGETHER to support this attainment of knowledge and each other.
It’s obvious the blog here channels great intellects with many skills. And it’s not a bad thing to correct each other or redirect the question. But to fight one and another? There’s a difference in saying “ I respectfully disagree.” And another way…
But what is your quest ladies? Could your swords and sound minds be pointed in better directions???. Most of you… I CHERISH. Others I may not know…I don’t normally comment as I have no Fu$k$ng idea about half the disputes. BUT I often wish your energies were pointed to others and not each other because I value you, I respect you and I want to HEAR you on topics outside of US. And I say US because I consider each one of you as my tribe, my posse, my bloggers….The detail, the knowledge, the may I say “ passion” if pointed in another direction would make us STRONGER.
Is it by at all possible to ignore all prior postings and start afresh, hand in hand, back to back, utilizing all our energies to create a new day? Most of you… I dearly thank for your wisdom and responses. Some I might not know. But while I would hate to be ghosted by offending you, consider this a call to arms. Ladies! There is a world full of targets. There are thousands who might read our posts and feel our genuinely loving support TO HEAL. Let’s join together. Let us be ONE as a group even with those we don’t like, or we don’t agree with or maybe dare I say have hurt our feelings. Let’s rise above? Why? We are EMPATH WARRIORS. Together we stand. Together we fall. You don’t need to stand next to the one you don’t like or consider a weak link in this group but TOGETHER we can change the world. Every voice I hear … I hope if it is one with the same goal…is to make this world a better place and to support those we can. Yes, this is my call of challenge. The last call as I know in my heart the direction my conscience must take. I won’t be a bother to you. I won’t “ pipe up” again but I sincerely ask you to post on something outside of what was once said or once done. Let’s start tomorrow anew with a greater PURPOSE such as unity. My best to each one of you always! I truly mean that xxx
Contagious,
I hope I’m one of the cherished ones because I definitely cherish you! You’re always the peacemaker and I think that’s beautiful. And your two cents is incredibly valuable.
While I do agree that its important to stand in solidarity, its also ok if choose not to stand with someone. But I do agree that sometimes you have to let your disagreements go because sometimes they’re insurmountable.
I feel good about my conversation with AA and I’ve moved on.
Contagious,
Thank you for your heartfelt comment and request. I agree. I do want to add that, as we all know, there are narcissists on this blog, coming and going, in smaller numbers or bigger, but at least one or two here most of the time. I would like to ask everyone who cares to, to go to the evidence, remember what the markers of a narcissist are, and evaluate accordingly if there is any question. With that said, I am stepping back from some, again, and will be part of your group to push forward Contagious, thank you again!
AV, I agree and I think its best to step back from some and I will be doing the same.
Contagious, my beautiful soul! I totally agree with you! Bring everyone to the party! It will be fun! XX
AA,
When I first read this yesterday, I had a snippy response.
After more consideration, now I’m wondering about your intentions. If I may ask, what’s your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish?
annaamel,
Your note-taking and detailed analysis of one conversation is impressive.
How often do you take notes and analyse blog conversations?
“ How often do you take notes and analyse blog conversations?”
Occasionally, WN.
——
“What is a bit surprising is the defense of one who was recently disrespecting and calling AA names. Odd.”
I’m quite consistent in objecting to regular readers making insinuations of narcissism or calling other regular readers narcissists, regardless of what else is going on.
——
“I’m wondering about your intentions. If I may ask, what’s your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish?”
This questioning is condescending and provocative, Leigh.
AA,
You’re showing only one side of a conversation and that one side paints me in a bad light. I wanted to know why. But its ok. I no longer need to know why.
Thanks for answering, AA.
AA,
Over the past couple of months, Jordy has said reprehensible things to you. Yet you still want to protect her. So much so, you chose to paint 3 other bloggers in a bad light in order to protect her. This is an open forum so its fine that you posted my comments. But you had to anticipate that it might provoke a response from me. I wasn’t trying to be condescending. I wanted to try and understand why you chose to paint us in a bad light. For what its worth, seeing Jordy’s vitriol directed at you has made me sad and it baffled me that you still want to protect her.
Leigh,
I posted the comments from that old thread because
AV had made the statement ‘I did not insult anyone in the above referenced conversation‘.
She had insulted someone. All three of you insulted J by implying she was a narcissist. On this blog, with an empath readership, implying someone is a narcissist is absolutely an insult. Maybe the harshest one possible, because it denies our core trait.
I didn’t post Jordy’s comments because it was the insult of narcissism I was highlighting. Even though she argued with you, she didn’t accuse any of you of narcissism in that conversation.
I agree it paints you in a bad light. And I understand why your first response was snippy. But your second was still a bit snippy too with ‘What are you trying to accomplish?’
As to Jordyguin’s comments to me lately – they are bad. Not as bad as her comments to WiserNow, which are completely vile, but still terrible. I do appreciate you saying it’s made you sad to see it, and I feel that support.
Hi AA,
I knew you were trying to show Jordy that when we made our comments it wasn’t so nice and so it wasn’t very nice for her to do the same thing to WN. I agree. I thought her comments to WN were vile as well. WN chose not to react to her insinuations though so I knew she was ok. But I saw you going down a rabbit hole. No matter how you tried to get through to her, it wasn’t working.
I thought maybe if I asked you what you were trying to accomplish you might pause and think about it. In hindsight, I guess it wasn’t the best way to go about it.
For me, I’m choosing not to tolerate certain behaviors from anyone, narc, normal or empath. And I think that’s ok.
annaamel,
Leigh said: “I’m wondering about your intentions. If I may ask, what’s your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish?”
AA replied: “This questioning is condescending and provocative, Leigh.”
Why do you think Leigh’s question is condescending and provocative?
The question was asked in an open and respectful way (i.e. “I’m wondering…” and “If I may ask …).
Also, it is reasonable to question your goal and intentions with regard to the analysis of conversations.
I would also like to know your goal and intentions in doing so.
Leigh, AV, you were wondering why Annaamel brought this up all of a sudden?
She simply deflected from herself. Deflection is a staple manipulation utilised by the narcissist in order to nullify a threat to control. It can also come under the head of whataboutism and can be utilised by people who aren’t narcissists when they lack forensic intellectual ability to sustain an argument and therefore they bleat on about something that is irrelevant. I was debating a particular point with her and she decided to bring on a different comparison which was completely irrelevant to the argument. She had no defence to my argument and had to engage in whataboutism. I was pointing at the evidence in relation to WN’s narcissism but AA turned around and sidestepped the actual argument by smearing others. Being the hypocrite that she is, she’ll berate me for criticising WN and then rather than meet my argument and realise why my criticism is legitimate she’d engage in her own criticism by using a deflection.
She simply wanted readers to look elsewhere rather than at her. It was a misdirection and distraction and you, Leigh, AV, LET and myself from that debate, are just a means to an end for her. Back then I wondered why all of the sudden she jumped into action to defend and assist me in the debate I was having with the three of you and didn’t need her assistance whatsoever but later I realised she did it because she had ongoing tensions with AV and simply used my situation to get back at AV.
Overall that’s the reason why I’m naming her a selfish manipulative hypocrite. It is due to her behaviour over a sustained period of time.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
Mr. Tudor,
I want to apologize to you for my share of bickering on the blog. I know its your space and I should be more respectful.
I’m curious though, how do you feel about all the bickering on the blog? Does it irritate you at all?
There is no need to apologise Leigh, but I recognise the grace in you doing so.
I expect it. People disagree, people have opinions and people like to air them.
Thank you for your understanding, Mr. Tudor.
Can a porn actress be an empath?
I’d like to see porn performers under the tudorcsope..
For example
Angela White
Yes, an empathic individual could be a porn actress.
Hello HG:
I don’t think occupation or class necessarily creates a narcissist. I will give a personal example. My son has the same friends since 5. He has others like his marine buddies but his best friends mother was a welfare mom from Mexico with 3 children from 3 daddies. One is dead. The other in prison. The other left. She is a born again Christian. Cooks all day. Church. They grew up in a tiny 2 bedroom apartment in a gang side of town. The Mexican south side. Let me tell you what this poor uneducated immigrant ( legal) single mom did. She raised 3 healthy wonderful children on her own with the class of a royal. Her son my son’s best friend greets me with the warmest hugs and he and my son do everything g for each other. The kid went to college. Works for a developer. I knew he was special when I saw this 10 year old riding on a bike with books as big as him in the rain to get to school. Yes, I helped taking him free of charge to theme parks buying him membership passes, carting him to and fro with my kid. But when I was out of work for 2 weeks after my divorce, buying a condo, his welfare mom took me to lunch, held my hand and offered me emotional support. I thought I could pay her back through a graduation gift to her son. She wrote to me that I didn’t need to as her friendship did not require it. To this day we send bake goods and love to each other. The woman who cares for her aging parents in Mexico and is helped by sharing an an apartment with her and is a FORCE. She is dedicated to charity to Jesus to her children. And although impoverished has the class of a royal. Her children prosper. Her son is not blessed with the challenges of a Mexican … diet, gene BUT he got fit and slim. Her other son sells tshirts and is in the rap scene. My own son went to his events and said mom … I don’t want hoes. How lucky am I to have a son who asks? I said it’s up to you. Casual sex among adults is legal. But for me… I want it to mean more than a sport. Whatever you decide is right. Just Always wear condom.” But this son helps pay her rent. Is kind. And polite. My point is to shows slice of life of poverty where the children are empaths. It’s more than oossuvle.
Hi! I listened to your videos about the absent silent treatment and wanted to ask, what if this happens in a long distance (and brand new) relationship? He left ALL channels of communication open, no blocking. Completely stopped his social media activity (used to go live every night).
– After getting caught in a small lie (nothing serious) he went from being 24/7 on the phone with me (and preparing the house for our future together) to an 8 day silent treatment, then came back for a while but I ”rebelled” again and he went silent again for 16 days. Then there was a sweet hoover and it took me 17hours to reply but he didn’t reply back so I got mad and a month later he did a deliberate provocation knowing it would hurt me, but then sent a friend to put the blame on an hacker (ahah) and repair the damage. The friend also told me he is very sad and not having fun at all. Yet my texts get ignored (he has read the last 2 unlike the previous ones)
He doesn’t go out, but shares the house with this female friend/caregiver who is his partner in deception and has been for 8 years.
What do you think is going on? Thank you
There are some interesting dynamics at play here. Firstly, your relationship with the individual and also his relationship with the female/friend caregiver. I need more information about those dynamics in order to provide you with the detailed response necessary as this hinges on who is the primary source and who is the secondary source. In order to do that I would encourage you to organise an audio consultation.
I was actually considering an e-mail consultation to make it easier for us to communicate in your language, but you are tempting me, HG.
You will find it insightful and rewarding.
I’m very curious HG… Can a Greater have a record of drunk domestic violence against several ex girlfriends who didn’t take him to court but reunited online to warn potential new victims?
And can he smash hotel rooms under the influence of alcohol, pills and drugs?
Thanks
That would be highly unusual behaviour to find with a Greater Narcissist.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Keir Starmer, Sadiq Khan, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney, Anthony Albanese and others (don’t forget Angela Merkel ) are monumental traitors to their countries. They should all be held accountable for treason. All pure evil narcissistic psychopaths! Even “Blind Freddy” can see what’s happening !
What say you ?
Dear HG,
why there are many women narc who often have a narc as IPPS?
I mean men narcissists prefer empath women many times.
While women narcissists tend to be attracted by men narcissists very very often.
They use empath men very commonly as IPSS.
I had been an IPSS two times (1° DLS – 2° Shelf).
What evidence do you have for this proposition?
His wounded ego.
Hi HG: This might not get published so I might ask again. I read Lily Allen’s My Thoughts Exactly and it’s my humble opinion she is a narc upper lesser type B.
But you will share.
But she had a psychotic break from reality not from drug or alcohol abuse. She went into a fury: screaming, yelling, tearing things down after finding out her ex husband had a girlfriend. She describes it as “ repressed anger (from childhood).” She couldn’t remember doing it. The doctors put her on antipsychotic drugs for awhile. …. She recovered in a few months. This happened to me with my ex. He was like Lily… paranoia increasing zzzz….agitated… setbacks… then absolute explosion and he was sectioned for a bit. The repressed anger from childhood theory sounds about right. But this fury to the point of literally (psychotic breaks/clinical) losing your mind? How common is that? Is it a type of narc? Is there some narcs very close to the edge of reality?
I do not have any data to answer the question about the commonality of her behaviour where she exhibits anger (perhaps fury) and describes it as repressed anger from childhood.
Hello HG:
Well if you don’t have data, it doesn’t exist. It’s the issue of psychotic breaks from reality. Yes it’s fury but it becomes a clinical psychotic break where it’s not based on reality in anyway, often strange paranoia like the aliens are coming and they can’t recall it. I found it interesting that this happened to my ex husband and Lily. So there must be others who literally lose their mind, melt down with fury….
One more thing HG:
You write often of the narcissists re-writing of history, and I think you said even with a conviction, Lucy Letby’s narcissism would not let her accept what she had actually done. The name borderline was originally formed from someone who borders neurosis and psychosis. Schizophrenia involves psychosis. Even the mask is a fiction many “ unaware” narcs believe. I see it with my ex. He gets about 11 likes but truly believes he is on the same level as the greats. When we split and I hung up on his psychotic ranting, he was yelling at me to tell him he was better than my friend Joseph. A classically trained guitarist of 40 years and Paul, a blues musician of 50 years my ex can sit in a room for months fantasizing. He is prone to paranoia and conspiracies. He holds out the “ gigs” he did which are free open mike nights. Now my ex is different to Lily but they both had clinical psychotic melt downs. My ex was hospitalized for 6 months and had to see psychiatrists. He had a big fight with his mum and I would not help him or take him back and he went nuts. Both Lily and my ex were still in cuckoo land when police arrived. My ex threatened to kill the police. This was instant arrest. Both were in a fury they can’t recall. A lot of narcs will abuse their IPSS but if cops show, they are sweet as pie. You had a video demonstrating that. But I wonder how close psychosis is to some narcs. My ex accused me and his best friend of plotting to run off together. The guy I met once ten years ago who is married and a minister….6000 miles away. He was physically threatening him, frothing at the mouth nuts and threatening to kill us both. It was so bad the UK police called me to see if I was planning to come to the UK and offered “ their support and protection.” It did travel but avoided my ex. Kept my whereabouts under wraps. But the point is some narcs must live on the edge of psychosis. Low fuel? Deep wounding? Co-morbidity? But it isn’t so far fetched when they actually believe their own fantasies. Re-write history. His mother a middle lesser definitely dissociated before me Xmas 2017. She became a 5 year old. Holding my hands, swinging her legs and saying she always wanted to have a friend. Both are Jekyl Hyde. Totally normal then out of the blue narc rage. It’s weird. But from what I saw and I am not a doctor…,the line between reality and fantasy is very thin. Sybil split into multiple personalities due to extreme childhood abuse. Att 2y
I read Lily’s book a few years ago, Contagious, before I discovered this blog or thought much about narcissism, so I wasn’t categorising her or placing her somewhere on a spectrum when I read it. But I enjoyed the book and thought she came across as intelligent, open, honest and self-reflective.
She writes 3 times she is a narcissist. Same book. Lots of therapy. But I agree. She was interesting in her forthright honesty, her refusal to sugarcoat her behaviors…I liked her. Now I am not a he husband she cheated on or her child she left. I have not been present when she screams or yells or destroys things or her drug and alcohol use. So for me, who likes her music and enjoyed her book. It was really remarkable… what you see is what you get. She isn’t afraid to reveal her bad acts BUTshe blames her dad, her alcoholic drug use, her repressed anger etc…. She admits to it but I didn’t any remorse, apology or responsibility either.
Also maybe narcs like everyone else can have “ nervous breakdowns.” Maybe it’s as simple as that…???
Hello Contagious,
She does write that, yes. But HG has indicated that lesser and middle range narcissists (which you seem to be leaning towards) cannot know they are narcissists. And though Greaters can know, they don’t tell people. He’s also said that Empaths often believe they are narcissists, so I don’t know how much can be logically drawn from Lily saying (even 3 times) ‘I’m a narcissist.’
HI Contagious,
My mother has been diagnosed with mood disorder. I don’t believe it though. She’s a victim narcissist and I believe she uses the mood disorder diagnosis as a blame shift. There’s nothing wrong with her, its her mood disorder that’s causing it.
Lily Allen isn’t a victim narcissist but I think she’s using her alcohol abuse and her psychotic breaks as a way to blame shift. Its not her, its the alcohol abuse and her psychosis. Lily Allen reminds me of Russell Brand. The both have no facade and everything’s out there for everyone to see.
I’ve seen other narcs have psychotic episodes too. I think its that they’ve been wounded and their narcissism is using the psychotic break as a way to nullify the threat to control. When my ex best friend had her psychotic break, her husband had left her, took her children and got an order of protection against her so she couldn’t get back into her home. That caused her significant wounding.
I wonder if when the the creature is coming out of the chasm, it feels like a psychotic break. On the other hand, maybe the narcissism is using a psychotic break as a way to blame shift in order to quiet the creature. Its not the narcissist’s fault then because the psychosis is to blame. Would that help to quiet the creature?
Just some thoughts I wanted to share.
Oh gosh thank you so much Leigh!
Another!
I often wondered why my ex a middle lesser literally lost his mind. One day we were speaking normally, the next doctors, a close friend and police were calling me 6000 miles away.
I have asked HG many times if the psychotic break was from low fuel. Is that what happens when you meet the creature? No response.
I refused to let my ex live with me. I was worried if he divorced me, I would lose GOBS of money despite the legal documents I secured. You see, I am not a family lawyer and was told that he needed an independent attorney to protect me before signing. So I thought let him live in London, I will live in SoCal and we can visit. I also thought I could manage the narcissism that way. Visits are fun. Travel, dining out, not the day to day.
I was wrong. He wanted back and was angry at my refusal. He blew immigration too and I was open possibly to his return but not illegally. So my door was shut. Then his mother and him had a huge fight ( she is definitely a middle lesser). So… his two IPSS shut the door. He literally lost his mind. Paranoia on steroids. Threatened police. That got him sectioned where he couldn’t leave and had to see a psychiatrist. He had fears of alien invasions, replacement theories about immigrants and felt I was plotting to run away with his best friend a happily married minister who I met once who lives 6000 miles away. He made lots of death threats to him and I.
But he lost his mind.
Now I agree Lily is not aware but she’s seen enough therapists for a diagnosis. But her book is ABC narcissism, anyone here could see the signs. Yes I personally believe she’s just like Russel Brand in class and cadre.
Just like Russell, I like her. I’m liked her book. I am reading Gweneth Paltrow book and it is DULL DULL DULL. Totally boring. Basically she was brought up by two self engulfed parents, put in the best schools, given everything including her entry to acting and created an entitled self absorbed child/adult. I haven’t finished this boring book but she is also self fabricating. Goop is failing and when is the last time you saw a film of hers? She was Weinstein’s muse despite his abuse of her and Weinstein got good material. If she disappeared from theaters would we miss her? Ummm for me the answer is no.
But back to psychotic breaks… HG is this what happens to a narc with low fuel? A class a cadre? Or is this just something that can happen to anyone under stress?
With that being said, I have had more stress than being just rejected by a wife and mum… my son got bombed in war. He didn’t have a psychotic breaks. Lily Allen albeit she heavily used drugs and booze that can’t be good but others watch their exes move on without a full melt down. Now my ex was diagnosed. He lost his mind. I saw it. I just read Lily’s words. I’m not sure if true
But your friend would be the third…..hmmm
Thank you for sharing!
I am not a doctor but I suspect unstable personalities dance around psychosis, especially Cluster B. I mean what is a narcs mask but a fantasy he needs others to uphold to believe. What happens when it isn’t wounded but destroyed? Lucy Letby was almost catatonic at her last hearing and there are theories why people become catatonic. It is a serious mental illness afterall… narcissism.
HG would probably disagree but I see it in my ex as a broken child and a struggling man. I saw glimpses of a good man. Others would say fake or hovering or it is not possible. But I was with him for 12 years. I am not stupid. I had incredible times and he did give back. He helped me start my own law firm, he drove my teen daughter around for activities and whims and he was oddly a dog passionate lover who would walk dogs for free for a crippled old lady and doted on ours. He gave to charities. He has never left me, even now, he routinely sends love songs that h writes for me but always blames me. BUT despite the good stuff, the bad stuff rarely happens with healthy people. I said this to him once when he listed off all he good things he had done. The silent treatments. The early one time physical abuse (albeit he quit drinking for 10 years to be with me.), the verbal abuse and nonstop jealous accusations. Then when he lost his mind, he called clients, friends, family and work associates accusing every male of having sex with me. Everyone could tell he was nuts but I was still embarrassed and we divorced. I forgave him. It’s my nature and religious belief to forgive but I could no longer have a man that unstable in my life or near me loved ones. He is capable of harm I fear and so think trained police. See above. If I told you how he was raised and even what I witnessed from his mum, it would break your heart. This is a broken child but as a man… too dangerous to me or my loved ones. The reason I never took him back is not strength or even noble but as a mother…. I had to protect my son. I knew my Marine, returning from war… living with me… nope… as much as I said to him…” let me handle him.” My son has his own mind and even warned him. He stared at him. And I knew any wrongdoing my then husband would do… my son might step in. I decided to keep him in England away from my son who left the military and is in college living with me for 2 years. My ex knew it. He Said I was more married to my son then him. But my son respects and loves me as well. My ex is not capable of not being abusive. It’s all he knows and the air he breathes. I love him. I understand him. I miss the man not the broken child. But I march forward alone.
Anyone else who knows of a narc who suffered a psychotic break, I would be so grateful to know.
X
Thank you Leigh..,
Very interesting… BUT . In my husbands case, his mind seemed to be on paranoia overload. Could his doctors have been tricked by a narcs blames shifting? In his case, I think not. He normally did not prepare to harm and kill police. His theory on aliens and other conspiracies was outlandish and he was incoherent to the extent that EVERYONE knew he was “ crazy.” My son told me that my husband had called him. I said “ what did he say?” My son said he didn’t know as he screamed for 5 minutes like a “typical psycho lunatic “and hung up. One ( sadly if a few) of my clients called me to tell me my ex had called him and accused him of sleeping with me. My client told me that he thought about joking “ yes and it was the best sex I ever had” but he felt too sorry for him as it was clear “ he was rambling in a way not in touch with reality.” And when the police called 6000 miles away to offer support and protection while he was sectioned, no doubt. Psychotic break. I think he was properly sectioned. I don’t think he saw reality and I think he was a danger and to me… is a danger. This was the last straw. We divorced. However nice… I would not trust to be alone in a room with him. He accused me of working with the aliens to replace the UK with immigrants and of sleeping with all my clients…. I don’t trust his ability to be sane. And the countless death threats….
Lily Allen. I don’t know. It’s what she said.
That’s why it nags me. Is this what happens to a narc when fuel runs way low?
In general we know extreme stress can cause a psychotic break…but ask yourselves… aren’t narcs already living in a fantasy? How close are they from leaving a fantasy they created to an utter loss of all reality?
In my husbands case, he stopped eating, stopped showering, inanimate objects spike to him, his theories were crazy, his paranoia extreme and he spoke of murder. He plotted killing police. Authority. He is not schizophrenic. He was released in time after medical intervention for a psychotic break. It interests me on many levels.
1. For HG, is this what happens when you meet the creature?
2. BPD is called so as in history, they border between neurosis and psychosis.
3. I wonder how close narcissism is to psychosis. Of course with psychosis there can be no real empathy as nothing is real.
4. How do you explain cognitive empathy then?
I see it as a spectrum. Sybil became a schizophrenic after suffering horrific abuse. It was a defense mechanism. Could narcs just be schizophrenics on a lesser scale? Creating a fantasy world they must live in scared of reality? Psychopaths see reality.
Hi Contagious,
I don’t know if its low fuel or a fuel crisis that would cause psychosis in the narc. I actually think its because they suffered a threat to their control that caused severe wounding and the psychotic break nullified the threat to control.
When I suggested that psychosis could be used by narcs to blame shift, I didn’t necessarily mean with psychiatric professionals. I meant in general. I can see a narc saying their psychosis causes them to act the way they do. Then they don’t need to take accountability for their actions.
Paranoia is innate in all narcissists. I’ve seen many narcs suffering from paranoia who state outlandish things and believe in conspiracy theories. My narc husband believes the earth is flat and that the sun really isn’t so far away. I actual think they say these things to get a reaction from us. Every time we react, we quiet the creature for them because we validate their existence.
When my ex best friend had her psychotic break, it did appear like she was in a dissociative state. I can definitely see similarities in narcissism & DID. The true self fractured to create a false self to protect the true self. I think I agree with AA that they’ve been traumatized by reality and that’s what causes the dissociation.
Have you read the Narcissist’s Reality Gap?
https://narcsite.com/2023/10/07/knowing-the-narcissist-the-narcissists-reality-gap-2/
I also came across one of Mr. Tudor’s videos recently as well. Its called, Why is the Narcissist Rotting?”
https://youtu.be/6SmBPLhWUjI?si=vDN5b1JyNziROODQ
They directly answer your questions but I found them helpful and informative.
Shoot! I meant to say “don’t” directly answer your questions.
‘Sybil became a schizophrenic after suffering horrific abuse. It was a defense mechanism.’
Contagious, it was dissociative identity disorder (multiple personality disorder/split personality) that Sybil developed rather than schizophrenia.
I’m going to replace Schizophrenic with DID for the rest of your post if you don’t mind because I think that’s the one you mean and I think it’s an interesting question.
‘Could narcs just be DID’s on a lesser scale?’
I think there’s something to that theory. Both involve a shutting down of a part of the personality for self protection / self preservation. Both involve the development of replacement personalities who go out into the world and do what needs to be done.
‘Creating a fantasy world they must live in scared of reality?’
In a sense, creating a fantasy world, yes. Traumatised by reality might be how I’d put it.
Hi Rebecca,
I’m starting a new thread to answer these comments because they were so deep in the thread, they were hard to find.
Should you not discuss the subjects with MLS? I don’t know the answer to that. I can tell you what I do in my situation. I don’t discuss the subjects with my narc husband or narc daughter. For me, it feels like it would be falling onto deaf ears. My narc husband doesn’t know that I follow Mr. Tudor so he’d never bring him up. My narc daughter is aware that I follow Mr. Tudor and its very rare that she brings up Mr. Tudor. But when she does, its because its serves a purpose for her. Even though she’s LMR, she has a steak of overwhelming angel in her so she thinks she’s the helpful empath. So when she asks for info, its usually because she needs to indirectly nullify a threat to control that was posed by one of her sources. She needs to prove to herself that she’s the empath and the victim.
As for MLS, I think he brings up Mr. Tudor as a benign manipulation. Its sort of like, If he can’t beat him, he might as well join him. If he talks bad about Mr. Tudor, you won’t have a conversation with him and that cuts off his fuel supply. So now he’ll bring up the subject in a benign way in order to keep the conversation going which in turn gives him fuel.
Hope that helps.
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/29/questioning-me/comment-page-21/#comment-461428
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/29/questioning-me/comment-page-21/#comment-461429
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for your answers. It makes sense that he would ask me about HG in order to strike up a conversation with me.
He was very interested in what HG had to say about Trump.
Thanks for the clarity, Leigh. Xx
Hi HG,
Thanks for your other answers recently. Aldo, can narcissistic people who are not actual narcissists, also have some of the empathic traits like carrier, co-d etc?
Thanks 🙏
Yes, narcissistic people have both narcissistic and empathic traits but the empathic ones are fewer in number and weaker.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Are you able to shed some light as to what’s happening regarding the “takeover” of the west right now (Canada, GB, Europe, Australia, NZ )? It appears all the narcissistic leaders have turned complete psycho and are stammering more when they answer questions.
Surely the WHO, UN and whomever else (also those wanker judges who sit in Strasberg passing law on the Human Rights Act) don’t hold that amount of power over countries when something like this happens …..surely ? It is almost WW11 again without bullets and tanks ! The west are rolling out the red carpet for them instead! DEI values are a joke when you are silently being invaded. Trojan Horse!
The UAE (Loay Alshareef and others)are clearly telling us who and what we are dealing with and what to expect, however no one is listening or taking action. Why do we have to resort to “civil wars” for anything to happen ?
Why are these weak pathetic psychopathic communistic leaders allowing this invasion takeover ? Sharia Law WILL happen ! The USA are not immune either! If Zohran Mamdani wins the Major of NY, heaven help America !
You are the only person I know, who knows !
Many thanks
HG, would Gwyneth Paltrow with her high cognitive ability and mimicking and actually believing that she is an empathic person pass the Empath Detector and turn out as an empath?
No.
Thank you! Would Blake Lively be able to cheat on the ED and come out as an empath?
No.
Thank you! And what about Charlize Theron, would she come out as an empath?
Hi Jordyguin,
If my memory is correct, I believe HG said, on the blog before, that Charlize is a psychopath. Xx
Rebecca hi, love! Yes, I remember that Charlize was something of a psychopath and narcissist? I’m not sure. The thing is if even Gwyneth would not pass the ED then Charlize probably wouldn’t either.
Hi Jordyguin,
Yeah, Charlize definitely wouldn’t pass the EDC. Xx
If it’s ok with HG, I’d like to share something about the EDC in regards to MLSN.
If it’s ok to share HG, then this will post, if not I understand your decision here. Xx
MLSN was determined to prove that he wasn’t a narc. As I said before, we used to listen to HG together, so he knows about the EDC from the discount videos for the EDC…
Anyway, I paid for an EDC for MLSN. He answered the questions and he was not happy with the result he got back. He called HG names and was furious. He didn’t succeed in proving his point. It was kinda amusing the fit he had….so no, they don’t pass the EDC. I know this from seeing it in person, so to speak….xx
Very interesting re your husband’s EDC results, Rebecca!
Hi Jade,
MLSNarc doesn’t think he’s an empath. He thinks he’s normal and he does tell me that he thinks he can be an a## from time to time…He says, no one is perfect and thinks the EDC is wrong about him, that HG doesn’t know him, has never met him. How does he know what he is?! I expected that reason, the fury, the stumbing off in a huff. The results threatened his control and he erupted with a rant….I watched him act up and noted the behaviors again. Xx
Hehe Rebecca. The “post EDC” behaviours just verified HGs EDC for your hubby. 😂
When I first realised about my mum and set boundaries, she kept verifying herself with her subsequent behaviours too. It’s interesting..
Hi Jade,
When you set your boundaries, did your mother sulk and whine to other people about “your neglect” of her?
They do tend to show their narcissism in their temper tantrums and we can see their red flags now….dancing in the wind..😄 xx
That’s exactly what she does.. but very, very subtly, Rebecca. I sometimes wonder if she’s a greater. She excels! Not so much obvious sulking tho (I had an ex friend that loved doing this).
At my dad’s funeral, someone who I haven’t seen for decades came up to me and tried to guilt trip me and it was very clear what mum had been saying! I ended up addressing that last time I saw her which she of course denied. I did it for me.
I’ve got one task to complete related to her and dad and then plan to go back to ANC as discussed with Leigh recently. The smallest interaction always ends up confusing and tiring.. I know you know this experience too! 😅
Hi Jade,
Yes, I definitely know the behaviors from my mother, why i went ANC with her, her last 5 years of life.
She was about as subtle as a bomb at midnight, being a LMRVNarc she didn’t do low key anything. The performances were out there and she didn’t even know how bad her acting looked to me. I was amazed when people fell for her weak facade.
I have a current coworker, whom I suspect is an aware narc, possibly a psychopath. He doesn’t have the startle reaction, tested him recently…and he talks about his girlfriend and they live in separate apartments. He told me she thinks he loves her, but admitted to me, that he doesn’t. He said, he was a bit of a manwhore and now doesn’t chase women. He said, he doesn’t like people and enjoys tormenting one coworker because she’s easy to manipulate. He said, he doesn’t mess with me because I calmly reply back to him and cut him off. He said, I don’t get upset like the other coworker and I’m not as much fun.
I listened and observed his behaviors. He’s very calm and direct. I usually do ignore his comments because I see what he is and keep him at bay from me. I treat him like the shark I see him to be. Whether he is a big shark, or a small one. A shark is a shark and I treat them as such.
I find it odd that he feels the need to expose himself further to me, telling on hinself like that, or is it that he’s not aware he’s saying too much to me?
Dear HG,
What do you think it is, why he’s telling me all this?? Why do they tell me so much? Xx
Just adding to my last connect, Rebecca.. I stand corrected. Today’s HG education I’ve been undertaking is about greaters and that’s not my mum .. she cries too much! 😂
Hi again Rebecca ☺️
It’s funny.. I keep saying how good my mum’s facade is but actually, I don’t think it’s as good as I thought it was, on reflection. When I can see her interacting with others and the way it’s a two way street, a lot of people have their own issues / are blinded so it works both ways. My mum is very obviously cringe at times like you describe with yours and I imagine some others do see it, but wouldn’t know how to address it with me. It just seems that the narrative, apart from one wise in-law, is that she’s wonderful. But you never know what people say behing closed doors, I guess.
Interesting about your colleague too. I’ve actually been wondering if an ex boss of mine was both a P and N .. I’d already pegged him as an N. He sounds very similar in his approach to what you’re describing, though maybe a bit more victim and whingy about others having more than him. Can I check, do you know if all Ps are greaters if they’re also a narcissist?
I wonder why he’s telling you so much too. Interesting. You sound like you’re giving off the “right vibes” btw, not reacting to him and also what you shared recently about shadow work and your stepson.
Hi Jade,
I hope HG can shine some light on to why my coworker tells on himself with me…HG? Xx
When he says to me a provocative comment, I reply back to him with a dry, short comment meant to poke him back in a subtle way.
I do the same thing to MLSNarc husband at home and around friends. MLSNarc likes to provoke me with comments and ai give it back to him, but I believe he likes my comebacks, whereas my coworker has a different reaction.
My coworker’s face is blank, he gives no comeback to my comeback to him. His face is blank, no reaction at all, but I feel he’s analyzing my comment and mulling it over, why I think he’s a NP or P. I find his lack of reaction interesting and so I tested him for the startle reflex. He has none. Noted and I keep an awareness on him. Xx
Dear HG,
What are your thoughts? Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I think your coworker is trying to get into your head. By sharing his “secrets’ with you, he’s trying to draw you in. Be careful. If he’s a narc, I’m sure he’s sensing your empathy.
Unaware narcs can be aware of what they do, they just don’t know why they do it and then they justify or blame shift their actions.
Hi Jade,
You asked – Do you know if all Ps are greaters if they’re also a narcissist?
Not all psychopaths are also narcissists. There are pure psychopaths as well. Greaters are a hybrid of narcissism and psychopathy.
Here’s a link to a question AA asked and then Mr. Tudor’s response.
https://narcsite.com/2023/03/11/knowing-the-psychopath-an-uncaring-perfect-predator/comment-page-1/#comment-440102
https://narcsite.com/2023/03/11/knowing-the-psychopath-an-uncaring-perfect-predator/comment-page-1/#comment-440808
Thanks so much Leigh. That link re psychopathy was really helpful, insightful and frightening, in a good way!
In relation to only feeling fury not anger etc, I’m sure that HG has said before that is the case for Ns as well as Ps? There’s the five basic ones for them too…? I think I can see that anger is too “emotional” for an N.. is that right.
I’m interested in learning more about pure psychopathy vs mixed with narcissism too. I feel like day to day interactions (less mindfuckery nonsense) are probably easier with a P (but obviously not keen to test my theory out either way lol 😂).
One reason I asked about the mix was about an unpleasant ex boss I had , I’m sure was a N but he had quite a similar no nonsense, direct (almost autistic approach in written communication particularly). I kind of like that with HG. But with the boss I felt a coldness (similar to that article described) so started wondering if he was a greater too .. but I think mid range after reading “the reality gap” article as also a passive aggressive, nastiness beneath his work emails and he was terriblr at his (well paid) job but was always complaining about not being promoted which sounds more mid range.
We worked with people on the autistic spectrum and a lot of people thought he was autistic (including some autistic people) but I don’t think so, I think that job was a handy facade.
I’m so glad he’s gone whatever he was! 😅
Ps I managed to do my first ever “emotional karate kick” last year with his N girlfriend who gaslit me the first time I met her (due to obvious lies he’d told her about me). It was scary (I hate confrontation) but oh so satisfying!!! And I was right, in hoe she responded to my NC 😂 she’s gone too.. one other person who knew what they were “encouraged” her to take a different (worst) job elsewhere. Lol.
Sorry for the essay!
It’s interesting Rebecca and will be good to learn more. Btw I love how you deal with your coworker and LMSNarc. Go you!
I’ve just posted to Leigh about realising the past few days that an ex boss might have been a P/N too, so I’ll watch and learn with “yours” too. I responded pretty nu h the opposite to what you’re doing in the early days with my ex boss and I think he loved playing games but gradually cottoned on and adjusted.
Ps I’m back to work soon so am planning to drop some heavy boxes near a few co-workers to learn some more..! 😆
I always think I’m not very badass, I’m working on my people pleasing habit and hate conflict… But I’m realising sometimes it’s absolutely necessary and I can deal with it/Ns and others, when needed.
Glad you’re dealing with things well till you learn more. 👏
Sorry Rebecca, I meant to write MLSNarc.
Ps Leigh, thank you so much for taking the time to find those two particular comments too.. much appreciated and they really added clarity. I went off on a bit of a tangent before so forgot to say that! 😅
Also do you know if more info was given on whether narcissists other than greaters can also be psychopaths? I can see it ties in with my wondering about the interaction of psychopathy and narcissism.. for example Constance Martins partner being a sociopath.
HGs video made me question what I thought a sociopath was, as the behaviours seemed more lesser narcissist. What is still left in my mind with the partner is, why would he want to live in such a unsanitary and basic way when he has access to all her wealth. In his mind couldn’t he have caused similar amount of suffering / extraction of fuel without making his own life so difficult? Maybe pulling someone so high in society “down” was part of it.. maximum mayhem or just not thought out on his part re impulsivity. I also wonder if in the questions I have is the answer in terms of his cognitive function. Mm. Questions, questions, questions!
It’s very complex but I do find a ring of truth coming through each time I understand HGs categorisations some more. It’s like more and more slots into place each time. It does also make you realise how many interactions you’ve had with Ns and their ilk, doesn’t it? 🧐
Hi Leigh,
I think you’re right about my new coworker, as to why he’s telling me all this stuff about his past.
No worries, I already stopped more than enough red flags from his behaviors. I work with him and throw the comebacks, back and forth. I think we are currently playing a game of who can make the sharpest comeback and then he picks on the other coworker. I find it amusing because I see who he is(N? P? NP? ) and I roll with the comebacks. He actually laughed a little today because I got him on a good one. 😄
My other coworker, heard my comeback and he was like, “Ouch, that one was brutal.” He laughed too. We working in the same area, so we could hear each other easily.
Anyway, I used to do that with my psychopath brothet, play banter back and forth…at least it’s the way I see it. I’m used to coming back with sassy comments.
LMRSnarc from work and MLSNarc can’t handle the banter, they get mad and stop talking to me.
My brother and this new coworker seem to like it and come back later for more banter. I wonder if my new coworker is a psychopath like my brother? He doesn’t have the startle reflex. Xx
Hi Leigh and Jade,
I got into an argument with MLSNarc on last Sunday night. We were arguing about how I don’t like to pump gas by myself.
He thinks I’m being paranoid and silly. I told him that panhandlers come up to ne, while I’m pumping my gas and it makes me nervous and scared. I don’t know if they want to rob me, hurt me or whatever.
MLSNarc doesn’t get my fear and calls me paranoid. I got mad at him and told him, “Really! Paranoid?! After what happened to Iryan? You’re still going to call me paranoid?! How can you stand there and honestly say that to me?! WTF? You know what? FK YOU! You can take your paranoid and shove it up your a##!”
He said, “I don’t get why you’re so scared to pump your own gas now. What will you do if I die tomorrow? You going to walk to work then?”
I told him, “No, I’d ask someone else to go with me. I’m not asking you to pump my gas for me. I’m asking you to come with me, so I’m not alone at the pump.”
That was the end of the conversation, later I tried to explain it to him, break it down for him. I told him, that calling me paranoid hurt my feelings and made me mad.
I asked him, don’t you see how that was rude and hurtful? How you dismissed my feelings and invalidated me?
He said, Yeah, I get it, but you have to understand it’s how I was raised. It’s how we talked to each other. They weren’t nice and I’m like them.”
I told him, “Yeah, but I’m not married to them and I’m telling ypu to stop calling me paranoid. I’m not paranoid. Women have to worry about violent crimes against us. You need to be aware of this and stop making fun of me for being aware of danger in every day life.
He made me mad, when he blamed his folks about what he said to me. I didn’t want to hear his BS. I’m done with the BS, sell it to a farmer. I’m not buying it. Xx
I’m sorry for the long story. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Your co worker sounds like he’s taking a shine to you. I think he’s using the witty banter as a way to get into your head. Please heed caution.
I’m sorry your husband acted like an ass. When my narc husband starts acting up, it helps me to remind myself that he’s a narcissist. I try to do it, even in the moment its happening because all I’m doing is given him fuel and getting myself aggravated.
Is there any chance you can find a gas station where there’s more people around but less panhandlers? The gas station freaks me out too. I’m always looking over my shoulder.
Hi Leigh,
No worries about the coworker, I don’t work around him most days and I suspect he’s a N or P, so I’m keeping him at arms length. Xx
MLSNarc and I fight and he likes to poke the bear with me and I realize it, while I’m getting mad at him and sometimes I can hold my tongue and sometimes it all spills out with my temper. I’m still working on my mouth and this temper. Xx
The gas station is Wawa and they are all pretty much the same, panhandlers take advantage of people coming and going. I got approached a couple of times at the grocery store parking lot, and I don’t live in a city. I’m aware of my surroudings, to stay safe.
MLSNarc went with me to the gas station, so maybe he did see my point. He told me, he felt like a jerk and wanted to be nice. I know he said that for me to feel sorry for him.
I try to control my temper and my mouth, but he can poke the right buttons…I’m working on it. Thanks for your advice, Leigh xx
How are things with your narc husband and daughter? How do you and your other daughter deal with them? Xx
Hi Rebecca,
First I want to say that I know you can see the truth about your narc husband and co worker. I hope I’m not coming off as overbearing. Sometimes when someone else points out the behaviors as well, I find it validates what I’m already feeling. That’s what I try to do for you but after rereading it, I can see how it can look like I’m being bossy.
My narc daughter is consumed with her IPPS so she’s not around a lot. My daughters aren’t close at all. The spend no time together at all unless it s a family thing and even then my narc daughter avoids her. My empath daughter is the one that works in the city so she’s not around a lot either. My empath daughter has an ok relationship with her father. She knows he’s a narcissist but keeps him at arm’s length.
She was recently ensnared again so she had to find her way back to Mr. Tudor. She bought a bunch of books and she’s been listening to his videos again. I told her that Mr. Tudor does consults as well and she could use Mr. Tudor as a resource. I also told her I bet she could even use Mr. Tudor as a screening service. Before she gets in too deep, have Mr. Tudor have a conversation with them and get his thoughts. I want her free from narcs more than you can imagine.
Hi Leigh,
No worries, you are not overbearing to me. I know you’re offering advice and being helpful. Xx
I appreciate your insight and point of view. I need help with my self doubts. I start wondering if I’m seeing things screwy and need another set of eyes to look at the situation. I know my view isn’t the only one and I appreciate the confirmation of the narc behaviors.
I see them and I’m getting better at spotting them. It took me within one month to notice narc behaviors from one on my new team and a couple from the other depts. I talked their behaviors over with HG, one I call, Mayhem, is a perfect example of narc behavior, so I keep him at arms length. He’s not on my team, but circles like a vulture at times.
Your narc daughter seems a lot like my narc stepdaughter. She’s a MLSNarc and I have as little to do with her as possible. Have you said, what type of narc your daughter is?
It’s good that your empath daughter has little to do with her sister. She’s smart listening to HG.
I shared some HG videos with my stepson. I think his ex is a narc. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I’m glad you take my comments the way I intend them. Its nice to have another set of eyes to look at things. It can validate what we’re seeing. But also, its good because sometimes we miss things. I know I miss things all the time, lol!
My daughter is a LMR Somatic. I think middle lesser and lower mid range are similar. I think the facade is the difference. My daughter definitely has a facade and its much better than her father’s facade. But she has acquired character traits from me.
Yes, I agree. Its good that my empath daughter keeps her sister at an arm’s length. Its nice to even be able to say that to you. I wouldn’t be able to say that to anyone in the real world because it would look like I’m putting a wedge between the two of them. But that’s not the case at all. I just want my empath daughter to understand what’s happening and then she can make the decision for herself.
Your daughters are fortunate in regards to your understanding of both of them, Leigh. ❤️
Leigh,
I typed a reply, but I don’t know if it went through or not. I got an error message. Xx
Hi Leigh, when did you realise your daughter a narcissist (if you don’t mind sharing)?
Hi Jade & Rebecca,
Rebecca,
The errors are so annoying!
Jade,
I don’t mind discussing it but you should know that I have bad habit of blocking out things that I don’t want to know. I did the narc detector on her 4 years ago. I know I was suspicious but I don’t remember the specifics. I must’ve known somehow though. I say I knew because I had my other daughter do an empath and trait detector. Yet with my narc daughter I didn’t even think about asking her to do the empath & trait detector. I just knew I had to do the narc detector and when it came back that she was a narcissist, I wasn’t surprised.
Just for clarification though, my narc daughter doesn’t know that I think she’s a narcissist. But my empath daughter does know that her sister is a narcissist. It can be difficult to navigate sometimes but I figure it out.
Hi Leigh, That’s ok, thanks for sharing. I think we often block things out for a reason. Wondering did your N daughter see her results for herself? I guess she wouldn’t accept them anyway though.
I honestly think you’re managing a difficult situation well. You help your empath daughter yourself and via this work and it’s better for you and her that you know about the N daughter. 👏
Hi Leigh and Jade,
I’ll try to send the comment again and yes, the error messages are annoying, Leigh. Xx
What I typed before is that I’m glad your daughter has access to HG’s work at such a young age. Can you imagine how different our lives would have been if we knew what we know now, at your daughter’s age? I’m grateful we know now, the knowledge works in a favor too. Xx
I agree 100% Rebecca. 🎯
I love how you are helping your empath daughter, Leigh.. helping her avoid the potholes in the road that we’ve experienced. You’re also helping your other daughter in a different way. That’s what a real mum does. 👏
Hi Jade & Rebecca,
I agree, Rebecca. My daughter is so fortunate to have learned about narcissism at a younger age. I’m so happy that I found Mr. Tudor and I was able to give her that gift.
Jade, My narc daughter has never seen her results from the narc detector. I wouldn’t even attempt to tell her. That would just cause a threat to control and eruption of her fury.
That makes sense re your daughter and the narc detector, Leigh! I was wondering how you would have got around that!
Hi HG
A long time since I was here .
Had many great consults with you . Unfortunately I got sloppy after 5 years .
Kiki
Hello again Kiki. Well you know you’re accessing the right information and sounds like a consultation is needed.
Thank you HG .
Listened to your private audio consults ( I still have them ) and it was like sticking my head in a bucket of ice in a good way .
I’ve strayed off the path and got burned .
Kiki
Hi HG:
I apologize if this question is basic. I have followed you for years, read everything you wrote and bought most of the knowledge vault BUT… I was thinking about Co-D, carrier and Martyr and savior. One (Co-D) is a class and the others cadres. All cadres seem to me are about helping others. A Co-D seems to need to please another to exist, sort of a defining identity. The term “people pleaser” is often used. Yet a carrier and martyr engages in carrying the burdens of others, a martyr to the extent that it hurts her/him and can overlap as you said as to classic martyrs ( but not necessarily so as you pointedly said). A savior “ saves.” This means saving others. So if carriers, martyrs and saviors are out there trying to help or improve the life of others… what is the key difference between them and a Co-D? For me, I am not Co-D and I think it is because I am happy and content on my own. I don’t need another ( outside the fact we are mammals and social by nature/biology) to be content. But I am a carrier and a martyr … equally. And I get that as I choose a profession solving other peoples problems and I can go beyond what’s normal or push myself to a great extent usually to correct a wrong or An injustice that I perceive must be addressed at all costs. Not regularly but I have and it’s in me. But the class Co-D and the cadres carrier, martyr and savior are outward: doing for others. Carrying, saving, throwing yourself in the frontline for another… how is that so different than a Co-D who needs another or to feel needed, wanted, loved to exist?.l I know there is a difference, or no category of class v cadres or the cadres themselves…. I see that there is a difference. But I can’t put my finger on the word that creates the difference…. 1. What is the key term that I am missing, or the main ingredient so to speak?
2.
How is a narcs need for fuel different than a Co-D? I read an article where a self professed narc called herself Co-D and I thought… she is referring to fuel….
3. Are Co-Ds only dependent on narcs or can they be Co-D with an empath or normal or narcissistic or even psychopath?
Thanks!
Dearest Kiki,
Hellooooooo my lovely
How wonderful to see you back, you were missed
I’m so sorry to hear you “got burned”….. wounds do heal however scars make us stronger! I’ve got so many scars I should be dressed like an Egyptian mummy
I truly hope you’re ok, big hugs to you sweetheart
💕xx
HG,
Could you answer the following questions, please?
1. Why do you allow, condone and enable Jordyguin’s comments which are repeatedly rude, disrespectful, and obviously combative and provoking?
2. Is Jordyguin a lieutenant for you?
3. Are you actually Jordyguin operating under a different name?
1. You both give as good as you get.
2. No.
3. No, grow up. I do not do that.
Thank you for responding, HG.
It’s clear that you have provided much more information than mere answers to my questions.
“Is Jordyguin a lieutenant for you? Are you actually Jordyguin operating under a different name?”
Is it a compliment? But wow, paranoia has arrived.
WN, I will try to ignore you in the future, deal?
Hi Jordyguin,
Could you answer a question, please?
Why are you so contemptuous?
I asked first, hon. You can’t do that, answer a question with a question. Deal or no deal? The thing is, you’re a narc, I’m likely a narc and we can’t continue like this for months. HG said “You both give as good as you get.” I will listen to daddy and stop. You can do what you want. You really thought I’m him? Cool. (You thought he created a character who would write in a way as I do, all this time…that’s funny… back to the deal! deal or no deal? I say deal.)
Jordyguin,
I’m not a narc. You can confirm this with HG if you like.
Your insistence that I am a narc is inaccurate. It makes the rest of your comment irrelevant.
For some reason, you obviously don’t like me. If that’s the case, then I think you should keep your thoughts about me to yourself.
If you don’t like me, then don’t respond to my comments and stop commenting about me.
Disliking you is a luxury I can’t afford, WiserNow… Did you listen to Part 3 The Psychopath Defends? Did you notice how HG enhanced the experience of all participants in that story? He dealt with the Alpha and his pack – elegantly, dismantling their predatory nature. His assessment, route selection and precision were undefeatable. They’ve never met excellence of that kind before and were given a chance to experience how an Ultra strikes… HG demonstrated to Tabitha what ideally a man should be capable of, by successfully defending his loved one if the situation requires it, playfully. And much later in devaluation he demonstrated to her how a man should not be, and then over time he moved on and created a body of work for all Tabithas in the world so they could wake up by listening and reading about what he and his victims had experienced, had to share and explain… And all he asks in return is immortality through a legacy which will enhance human experience of understanding, by learning from which it could result in creation of new opportunities for awareness in order to move on from entanglements which bring unnecessary suffering to so many creatures on our planet… A fair price and exchange, don’t you think?
Where does a petty self-absorbed remark such as “None of the men in this story appeal to me” even stand?
With regrads to WN, Jordy says,
“Leigh and Allison are a different topic which has nothing to do with you.”
One could say the same about you and you still stuck your nose in it.
So its ok for you to get involved but not WN.
Just like you’re allowed to call me out about my deragatory comments but I cant do the same.
Understood.
“One could say the same about you and you still stuck your nose in it.” — It’s a free blog and everybody’s free to comment where they want. But you still don’t get it, Leigh.
“So its ok for you to get involved but not WN.” — I didn’t state that. Learn to read.
“Just like you’re allowed to call me out about my deragatory comments but I cant do the same.” — You didn’t comment on anything. What is the “same” you’re referring to?
“Understood.” — You obviously didn’t.
Jordy,
This is going to be my last comment to you about this subject.
You called me out for calling Annabelle full of shit. Not once did I say you can’t call me out on what I say. Its your right to do so. This is an open forum. Then I called Allison out for saying derogatory comments about people on the left. You jumped in to say that when I called her out it was a double standard. Again, this is an open forum and we’re all free to respond.
Why am I not allowed to call people out on there comments? Are you the only one whose allowed to do that? Don’t bother answering those questions. They’re rhetorical.
“Why am I not allowed to call people out on there comments?”
1. You are allowed to call people whatever you want, your opinion and so on.
2. Allison is allowed to call people whatever she wants, her opinion and so on.
3. You are allowed to criticise Allison’s opinion.
4. I’m allowed to comment about your criticism of Allison’s opinion, because your criticism of her doesn’t make sense to me.
5. You are allowed to comment in return and so on and so forth.
Clear?
Hello HG, Ive spent a few days here and find it very interesting. I have however not yet found any help for the Narcissist themselves, what I see is mostly help for the “victim” to escape.
I´m thinking – a person that had a childhood trauma and due to that develop this defense mechanism – should they just keep on being left behind, locked out and ignored?
“my narc” had lots of traumas as a child and recently been cut off totally by both children. Probably a middle mid range, has really no idea why life is so unfair and repeatedly sinking into depressions. Blame all negative actions and bad results on others.
Hello Linda. The narcissist cannot be helped, nor should you try.
Ok, Thank you for replying
I was more searching for tools to get them out of depression, being able to keep a job, but ok, I try to understand, maybe the depression is useful for a narcissist- to get attention, pity and get away with bad behaivour
Wow its very interesting!
🤯
Thank you for this site and for sharing your point of view!
«The narcissist cannot be helped, nor should you try».
It is difficult to come to terms with this thought. Although it would be more honest to say – impossible. In the 21st century, the fourth terminal stage of cancer is no longer a death sentence (we can do something, we can help). But it is impossible to help a narcissist. Unthinkable.
HG, this spiritual concept of ‘living in the now’ (Ensuring that your awareness is completely centred on the here and now. You are not worrying about the future or thinking about the past. When you live in the now, you are living where life is happening), did narcissists invent this concept?
Small children live totally in the now. Living in the now meaning: asserting control in the now, getting fuel in the now, not thinking about the future consequences and not reflecting on the past — Is this what this concept actually is all about?
When used by a narcissist, the phrase ‘you only live once’ – meaning: live in the now and become engulfed in emotion now, forget the past, don’t think about the future?
No.
On the topic of spirituality, 1. Have you ever considered that death dies when we are dead? ( Revelation) Your legacy could live on after death here and there.
2. Do you believe that you cannot be forgiven in the eyes of God?
He loves us all. Ask and you shall receive. I truly believe with DNA and the cycle of abuse, although I strongly lean to DNA, that only God through a miracle can heal a narc but through Him all things are possible.
1. No, I have not considered that.
2. The issue of forgiveness from an imaginary being is not something that concerns me.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron, now there’s an interesting duo !
Hi Bubbles,
I don’t get that coupling at all!
Dear Leigh,
Brigitte should have been arrested for having sex with a 15 year old minor student, Emmanuelle, as Mary Kay Letourneau did with Vili Fualaau.
Your lies will come back and bite you in the bum …….eventually, in one way or another. Look at Jimmy Saville !
Dearest Bubbles,
I know! The whole thing disgusts me. Macron went to school with her daughter and she was a teacher at the school. Its so disturbing!
The manhandling of Macron was epic! I wish there were part two.
HI Bubbles,
I saw your comment to Alexis regarding the passing of your mom. I just wanted to offer my condolences. I hope you’re doing ok. May your mom rest in peace.
Dearest Leigh,
Thank you so kindly and to the other lovelies who have commented regarding my mum. I’ve been having trouble getting messages thru. A nonce failed attempt keeps cropping up! I also tried to contact Mr Tudor’s email without success.
I really miss my mum and I cry a lot! I miss what we never had and I cry tears for the memories we created over these last 10 years when I had her to myself.
Bubbles,
I’m sorry you are hurting Bubbles. You have had a lot to cope with this last 18 months.
Something you said, “I miss what we never had,” reminded me of how I felt after my ensnarement by online narc. This is not a straightforward sentiment to deal with.
The one and only thing that helped me to reconcile this aspect was HG’s book Exorcism. If you don’t have this book, might I strongly recommend that you get your hands on a copy as soon as you can.
To miss what we never had is a sentiment that is prone to drawing in some very painful emotions at a later stage. I don’t want you to have to go through those Bubbles. Exorcism is the answer.
You are in my thoughts.
Xx
Dearest Truth,
Thank you sweetness for your kind sentiments. I have most of his “other” books EXCEPT that particular one. Haha
I feel your pain as well Truth and I know it’s not easy! Letting go is hard, I’ve had most of my life to overthink it all and what I did to deserve it. I am trying hard to just focus on the special time we had together. I will try to obtain a copy, thank you ☺️
Sorry if I repeat myself as I don’t know what comments have come thru or not and I’m totally lost and all over the place trying to find them.
Just had a conversation with mum’s barrister and he volunteered my step dad was a “controlling arsehole”. How interesting?!
Also, our son has removed himself as a friend on Facebook to us and his whole family now AND changed his family surname.
He just keeps shooting arrows at us.
This narcissistic vindictiveness never ends ……never !!!!!
Thank you again Truth, it means heaps 💕xx
Hi Bubbles,
That’s Sod’s Law isn’t it? One of the few HG books you don’t own. A little bit like going on holiday and pulling that fabulous dress out of your suitcase, only to realise the shoes that go with it are still sitting in the wardrobe at home!
Don’t worry, you aren’t repeating yourself, all up to date.
That is interesting about your step dad. Could it have been narc on narc with different schools and cadres maybe? Not something you need to think about now unless it impacts you moving forward.
Your son’s partner does sound particularly vindictive yes. The surname change would upset me too, but, it can be changed back again and I still think it will be one day. In some ways the Facebook blocking might not be such a bad thing. It will feel horribly upsetting but concentrating on you and Mr Bubbles and removing the parental safety net from your son might actually accelerate his realisation once he enters the sustained devaluation. That’s one thing you do know, the devaluation will occur and when it does your son’s worldview will change dramatically.
You can’t do anything to hasten that process, that realisation comes to us all at different rates as you know, so for now, hunker down with Mr Bubbles so that you are both ready to assist your son when the time comes.
Try to eat well and rest well Bubbles, that can only help provide the strength to get through these difficult months. And, try to stay on the blog and keep reading so you keep your ET in check. We’re all here with you, willing you through it.
Warm hugs to you and Mr Bubbles.
Xx
Dearest Truth,
Have been getting those nonces again. My apologies for the late reply.
You always need or want the one you don’t have. When you donate or throw away an item because you never use it, that’s the one you frantically go looking for and wish you never got rid of. Silly creatures aren’t we ?
I’ve ascertained from Mr Tudors category description, our son’s partner is a lesser victim narcissist. He appears to have all the traits and some. They sure are piece of work. Hopefully, our son will realise and find his self worth. In the meantime, I’ll “just keep swimming” (Nemo) haha
Thank you gorgeous 🥰
Dearest Bubbles,
That nonce error is enough to drive anyone mad! I get it frequently too.
I know what you mean about missing the mom you never had. Its not easy. Its nice that you got to spend precious time with your mom and now you have cherished memories to hold onto.
Dearest Leigh,
Sorry to hear that, it’s so frustrating isn’t it ?
There’s this other huge void in my life now of a different kind, first when she wasn’t there and now when she was there and now she’s not there, again. I’m sure others lovelies have gone thru the same!
It’s true what they say, you get more emotional as you get older!
Mr Bubbles and I, together, are emotional wrecks …..what a sight Haha
Thank you lovely Leigh, I appreciate your warm vibes 🥰xx
Dearest Bubbles,
I’m so sorry you lost your mom and I’m glad you had some quality time with her the past 10 years. I hope the pleasant memories outweigh the pain you feel in losing her.
Take care of yourself, treat yourself kindly during this difficult time. Xx
Dearest Rebecca, Asp Emp, A Victor and NarcAngel,
(you beautiful faithful souls)
What can I say, but the warmest and deepest “thank you” from the bottom of my heart.
Losing your son and your mum hits really hard ! It just drains all your energy and strength, as you all know !
Your comfort, strength and continued support will help me overcome this in time
NarcAngel, Mr Bubbles struggles every day, I’m his carer and I worry about him too!
I think I’m just overwhelmed at everything right now ! I’ll be fine !
Love to you all ❤️
To you, Bubbles, I am sorry to read about your loss. I understand how painful it is for you and your husband, as you both had your own difficulties to deal with simultaneously. I wanted to reach out to you to let you know that I do care and understand what you are experiencing. Love to you both xx
Dear Bubbles,
I am so sorry you’re hurting. My thoughts are with you.
AV
Bubbles
I am truly sorry to hear of your struggles. I wish for both you and Mr Bubbles continued good health and am glad you have in each other a place of strength and solace.
xx
NA
Hi HG,
I hope you’re doing well. I wonder about your intelligence of someone who would copy a website from a narcissistic psychopath… 😂 Glad you got it all sorted with a readers help and as others have said, your work absolutely stands alone and I’m very grateful for it and often recommend it.
On that point, my brain is always pondering things and I was thinking recently of you and your work because of how many people you help and I wondered if you ever think of your day of reckoning or death in terms of “karma”. I’m not religious at all but I guess we’ll all have that moment, in a sense, one way or another. You’re unusual in that, your nature (and nurture) being what it is, you are made to hurt or inflict pain (I think that’s something of the way you’ve put it here in the past, pls correct me if I’m wrong) in your interactions with others but by way of what you do here and the platform you have, you are also doing the opposite on a big scale. I wonder how that will work on a bigger scale and if it’s something you’ve ever thought of?
Ps I think my question about fibromyalgia and narcissistic abuse got lost somewhere recently but they’re appears to be research coming out about a link with these (and to domestic abuse etc) and I just wondered if that’s something you’re aware of or have observed yourself? I sense from my own experience with both, that there’s something about the empaths reactions internally over a long time, that could create this and similar health conditions in a reaction to abuse but maybe wrong.. 🤔
I am not aware of the research that you reference. Naturally, sustained exposure to abusive behaviour may take its toll on a victim in a multitude of ways.