The Utopian Ideal

Utopia. You want it. We give it to you. What you may not realise is that you are the spark of inspiration for this utopia, we are not. We allow you to design this ideal world. Interestingly, your utopias are strikingly similar. It is a place where you are loved, protected and made to feel safe. For some of you it involves the trappings of comfort and prestige. The impressive residence which has been tastefully furnished inside and is laden with the benefit of society’s technological advances. It may manifest as a wardrobe that is bursting with the beautiful and eye-catching. It may hold the sensational from the art world or the most luxurious materials that the world has created over millions of years. In other instances it may be the presentation of a cup of tea on your night stand each morning that forms part of their perfect world.

 Some of you reject the material and prefer to build this utopia on a foundation which you regard as more fulfilling, more deep-seated and nourishing. A land where mutual respect is a given, the simple pleasure of a stunning sunset evoking more delight and satisfaction than anything made by Bvlgari or Bentley. You want to be cherished, desired and listened to. For some it might be the intense passion of athletic love-making before the caress of soft hands lulls you into an all-encompassing slumber. Your utopia is a place where there is no anger, no tears and peace of mind. A place where one hand fits perfectly into another and will never let it go, a hand hold that says that it is okay to be frightened but you need not be because I will always be here. It is the knowledge that if you start to fall you will be caught. The wolf will always be kept from the door and nothing lurks in the darkness.  It is a halcyon world where the scent of dill onion bread, or bacon or pancakes signifies that we are together and you never want that fragrance to ever diffuse. So many of you offer different interpretations of what constitutes your utopia yet so many themes remain the same. Love, happiness, smiles, warmth, contentment, caring, laughter and passion are recurrent.

You build this utopia. The bricks are in the words that you say when you first meet us. Those sentences over dinner become walls that create these magnificent buildings that rise upwards into the azure sky. Those whispered desires the metal girders that criss cross as the monument to our relationship takes form. The desire in your eyes creates the undulating countryside and crafts the clear rivers that run through the beautiful meadows and fields that form in  your utopia. Your touch causes ripples across the landscape, creating and nurturing as the idyll forms. Everything you say and do, every expression and every glance, every thought and act is charged with such massive potential and it is all for the greater good. It is all to build utopia. You provide us with the plans and the materials and we set to, building this perfect world. You direct us and explain what utopia looks like, smells like and feels like. We are beholden to your instruction as we merely reflect what you want. You want to be called sweetheart every time we kiss you on the cheek? We do it. You want to dance through the night to the slowest of ballads? It is done. You want to receive a loving note through your letterbox? Consider it achieved. Each and every constituent part of this utopia is created by you, all we do is take what you want and make it happen. This is what we do. We are the facilitators of your dreams. We pay such close attention to the way you design this world, taking note of what should be excluded, what must be included and ensuring that every detail is executed.

We are so dedicated in our desire to build this perfect world for you that we spend as much time as we can with you, watching and observing, so that even your mannerisms begin to be included in this grand design. We are so skilled that we absorb everything about you, every hope, every desire and every dream and weave them into this utopia so that soon it begins to form and you marvel with an open mouth at how wonderful it is. It as if every breath you exhale creates another segment of this amazing place. Each heart beat thrusts life into it, every step you take transfers energy into this wonderland, your thoughts appear as if they were being written down as we somehow interpret them and cause them to become reality. You are the architect and we are merely the construction workers who endeavour to give you what you want and boy do we deliver. Nobody can create your utopia like us. Nobody has the skill or the dedication to bring this paradise to life. Does it matter that it is a construct, made from thoughts, dreams and wishes? Of course not, it is as real to you as the screen you now stare at and the fluttering sensation in your stomach. You can see it, taste, smell it, hear it and touch it. You are amazed at how perfect it is, it almost seems too incredible but it is not because you inspired it. You provided the drawings and plans and we brought it to life.

This is utopia.

This is all that you have ever wanted.

Now we have built it for you.

Does it matter that it is an illusion?

If so, well, you started it.

116 thoughts on “The Utopian Ideal

  1. Gypsy Heart says:

    A Brave New World. There is hope. The hope is in the children

  2. bethany7337 says:

    Hi Flower and Rock,

    I am well today, thank you. I DID find myself reeling in a triggered state yesterday but was able to bring myself back into alignment with my Higher Self fairly quickly once I exercised some valuable tools in compassion toward myself and others in yesterday’s exchange. INDEED what you say is resonating -that we are courage by virtue of our existence. I found solace in contemplating that so much of my suffering is generated by my “stories”. Truly embracing the present moment and remembering that the past holds no power over me, that only the moment as it unfolds is Infinite.

    How very funny that yesterday following the rather heated exchange on this blog, when I went to pick up my child from school in the office, there sat on the Principal’s desk was a lunch box with Glenda the Good Witch on it! I couldn’t believe the timing and wondered if a coincidence or if it was perhaps a synchronicity? I asked her about it as it was obviously quite dated…it had been hers as a child…and she turned it around to the other side to reveal the Wicked Witch’s face and said depending on her mood, she would choose to have either Glenda or Wicked Witch face students as they approached.
    Being the Overthinker I am, i took this message to heart. I reminded myself that there is, within each of us WITH NO EXCEPTION, a propensity for the Light and Dark. As I continue to grow, I am often dismayed to have the light shine on my own darkness which serves to push me further in how I view ALL of my fellows. I wish I could speed up my recovery to drop judgement of others. It is a trait in myself I abhor. I wish to be peaceful and calm- not to let my tongue fly when I feel wronged, hurt or misunderstood. To not have to be right. To be a safe person. As I write this, the ️tears fall because I have once again allowed another to have my power because of a “story” and my response was meant to wound. See, light and dark. Glenda and The Wicken Witch. Empath and Narcissist- we are all One in the Same.

    Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your presence and persoective here- it is so truly valuable and I feel it is helping me grow.

    1. TheFlowerandRock says:

      Both humbled and honored Bethany. I look forward to continuing the connection.

  3. Cody says:

    Someone has some serious anger issues.

  4. TheFlowerandRock says:

    It is a difficult task to undertake for most people, we can have empathy and compassion for this, for if we do not, we are equally trapped.

    1. bethany7337 says:

      Flower and Rock,

      Would you kindly expand on your earlier post about those who use courage as an excuse?

      1. TheFlowerandRock says:

        Hi Bethany. I hope this finds you well today, and that you have found a sense of recovery from some of the wounding that surfaced in the dynamic here yesterday.
        Great question that you have asked. Consider the possibility of the skewed beliefs that are woven within our thoughts/meanings of courage- as merely a possibility- something that can only be harnessed through worthiness, suffering, redemption, permission, and further falsehoods such as entitlement, righteousness, omnipotence. These can shroud and bury the consideration of courage as being an essential nature of our existence. An existence of which has already been born of courage.

        1. nikitalondon says:

          Courage is personal and its the force you get to move beyond your own fears..
          Fears and courage both form part of our existance.

  5. You get it, Flower. You are one of the few who does.

    People don’t take kindly to honesty, especially when that honesty forces them to look at themselves and accept responsibility for some of their lot in life.

  6. bethany7337 says:

    Glenda stood in her own Power. She didn’t need to be all bold and blustery. Remember, the Wicked Witch “has no power here”…in her domain.

    Although she did drop a house on someone. 😉

    Ultimately, once we are awakened and aware, no one can steal our Power. And just like Dorothy, we find the power was within us all along.

  7. Read the Dorothy Must Die series, which turns the entire Kingdom of Oz upside down and backwards.

    Where Dorothy is a bad ass bitch destroying Oz and Glenda is one of the wickedest witches of all!

  8. bethany7337 says:

    I was looking for you F and R…and here you are 😊. Like Glenda the Good Witch of the North.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Ha ha, you know Bethany, I often thought Glenda was fairly ineffective. When there is a spat in the Munchkin (not Potemkin) village the Wicked Witch is giving it large with Dorothy and Glenda just watches, not even a fireball or lightning bolt to singe the wicked witch!

    2. TheFlowerandRock says:

      I can feel you from afar Bethany. However, I am far from a witch, although I understand the archetypal sentiment in what you are saying. Witches are too fairy tale-ish for me.

      1. bethany7337 says:

        I am glad you know my metaphorical comparison was meant in the Highest Esteem. Perhaps all the inner child triggers experienced here today had me reminiscing about my favorite childhood movie. Glenda brought such a feeling of comfort and protection and satisfied my longing that Good trumps Evil. I do realize that is the stuff of fairy tales, nonetheless- my sentiments were e pressed from my heart.

        1. TheFlowerandRock says:

          Your response is indeed heartfelt Bethany. When I express I express in a manner which is wholistic in its approach, meaning there are many messages and perspectives contained in my use of words and their placement. Yes, there is much being triggered here today, which from perspective is a positive. Keep unraveling Bethany!

  9. Nikita – please remember the words I agreed with were HG’s and I don’t see you calling him a monster.

    In fact, you’ll jump to his defense like you always do anytime anyone says anything you perceive to be against him.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      And why not B&T, I’m worth defending.

      1. You absolutely are, hence why I agreed with every word you wrote and understand exactly where you are coming from.

        As I stated, I love finding flaw, and Nikita`s reasoning is so full of holes it couldn`t hold water if her life depended on it.

        I find your words, your confidence, your intelligence and your raw honesty incredibly attractive.

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Yes I jump to his defence when I see its umfair or harsh with him. The sentence that makes my curly hair stand up is you are not human.
      I say your words are monstrous not you!!
      Please dont put words in my mouth that I have not used. As you saw I even quoted them.
      I see we get nowhere with the discussion..
      So in my opinion its really harsh to bluntly say that the victims have part of the fault.
      It sounded harsh the way you sait it. Remember tone makes the music 🎼🎼

      1. And it is fine to have that opinion, as long as you remember that HG feels exactly the same way.

        I too have defended him and agreed with him on numerous occasions. I adore his kind.

        1. nikitalondon says:

          Yes B&H
          I think Ns and other people who carry this ” perpetual” emptiness inside deserve alot of love, patience and giving from the people who can give what lacks.
          You say you have been called N and S. I dont know if you are. I just know you are often angry because of what you posted.
          You were sometimes angry at my comments you commented.
          In any case whatever you are, I hope you do find a way to gain inner peace For you and your child. I remember you said he is very intelligent. 😃.
          And please I did not call you a monster 💔.
          Just what you said, which must be a result on how often you get angry.

          1. You are mistaking my disgust for anger.

            I am not sure why you`re bringing up my son, but he is the absolute light of my life. I am a good mother.

            I have inner peace. What I don`t have is patience for banality and people or things that make no sense.

            You don`t know anything about me. Period. So please save your judgment and leave the psycho-analysis to the professionals.

          2. nikitalondon says:

            I like to read that ” light of your life” ☀️☀️
            Sleep well ! Blessing to your boy 🙏🏻.

  10. Well HG, I am not really saying anything different than what you posted above and yet, I am being personally attacked. Bethany suggests that since you are an admitted and diagnosed Narc, it’s okay for you to say and post and do the things you do.

    I agree with you, and I am a monster. What’s my excuse? I don’t have one, nor do I need one. I am who I am. I love myself just as I am, I suppose you could say.

    I see what’s going on here, just as I know you see exactly what is going on here. I see how it works. I absolutely understand. And you are brilliant. An absolute mastermind and I absolutely commend you.

    These people here justify your cold-hearted narcissistic behavior and admissions because you are “helping” them. And yes, you are helping them. I see that and I think the insight and depth you provide is great.

    But they seem to have forgotten that, in the really real world, you’d treat all of them just as you’d treat anyone else. Seduce, devalue, discard….lather, rinse, repeat.

    Some of the women (please before you go all nutcase on me, note that I said SOME, not ALL) on here flirt with you, express their desire to always be on the good side, etc. as if they actually think that’s somehow going to win you over.

    I know that if I was a male the women on here, who are so fiercely loyal to you, so incredibly dependent on the words you provide, so enamored with your desire to help them avoid falling for another you, wouldn’t be so defensive.

    You are brilliant, HG. You and your kind in general. I love your kind for how brilliant, interesting and electrifying you are.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for expanding. There is force in what you advance and I am appreciative of your compliments. I have had plenty of ad hominem attacks in my time both on this blog, the FB page and Twitter believe me, of course it is all fuel to me. I understand people’s hostility to my kind and if they want to label and name call, they can fill their boots. I must write however that unlike other forums where I have lurked observing from the shadows there is an absence of whingers here. You are correct, there are many people who sit and wallow, replaying events, failing to take responsibility for driving matters forward and instead want to remain in permanent narc-bashing mode. That is their prerogative but I doubt they ever find validation or progress. Those people have not found a place here however. Not that they are unwelcome but I just do not seem to have attracted those people. Perhaps they fear treading into the lion’s den, perhaps they realise they will just give me fuel and won’t do it, who knows? It pleases me that the vast majority of commenters here understand what I am and embrace this unrivalled insight as an opportunity for them to seize their own power, by reading uncomfortable truths, asking questions, referring to their own experiences (but rarely in a woe is me manner) and advancing their own thoughts and theories. I enjoy seeing the debate since as an intelligent man I enjoy discussion and especially if it revolves around me. I also welcome however those who provoke debate as well in the way that you have. I am outnumbered here but it is my domain so I never feel outnumbered, on the contrary I naturally embrace the attention. You are right to acknowledge our brilliance, that shines through, brilliant achievements, brilliantly effective and brilliantly brutal.

      1. I know I am right in my judgment of you and your kind. And there are reasons for that as well, which I am certain you already know.

        I have no problem with people who attack me, mostly because their opinions of me and what I say don`t affect me. What I love though, is finding flaw with their thought processes and arguments. I love watching the hypocrisy melt off their tongues like hot wax.

        There is definitely an absence of whingers here (as well as an absence of men, for obvious reasons) that is refreshing.

        I am honest and straight-forward, always. I`ve been labeled a narcissist, sociopath and other things because of the way I am.

        And if you want to get right down to it, I`d rather be a narcissist/sociopath than a empathetic victim any day!

    2. TheFlowerandRock says:

      I am so appreciative that you are here. Truly. You are being misunderstood and that is okay and you know that.

      1. Thank you Flower. As I am appreciative of the perspective you bring here.

        You are a breath of fresh air.

        1. TheFlowerandRock says:

          You are welcome and thank you the same. Keep being who you are – it takes courage and once a person really apprehends courage, harnesses it, they then begin to understand that courage is also an excuse.

      2. TheFlowerandRock says:

        This comment was for you Bloodandthunder.

    3. Yo says:

      B&T, about “being a victim” concept.
      What i concluded: this is illusion that to recognise the fact that you are a victim of a manipulative person who intentionally thefts your time and emotions, declaring one things and goals but doing another things, that it s a weak position.
      It is not! Because, as u mentioned in one of ur posts, nobody wants to be a victim! (Neither me, but to recignise what has happened is even more difficult)
      Only a brave and strong personslity can do that: recognise he/she was manipulated and deceived. And to recognise that IT IS NOT THE GUILT of this person to be deceived and manipulated by a MN.
      Responsibility for what has happened- Yes. Guilt -No.
      We are victims of a MNcs here. Guilt is on the side of MNc. Responsibility to learn from this experience -on our side.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        An interesting dissection of where guilt and responsibility lie Yo. Of course you may ascribe guilt to us and think that is where it lies but of course we do not feel it.

      2. Yo says:

        U r a dead person, dear defective one)). So nobody actually care what do u feel or not. Your sparks of life depends on me and my kind.

        P.s. but thank you for sharing it because you increase awareness of ur kind and it helps us to navigate in this world..

  11. TheFlowerandRock says:

    The posts Infatuation and Utopia are interdependent; I have also replicated my posts. These two pieces by HG are of my more liked pieces by this author as they speak to the truth of the collective malaise.

    Utopia/Infatuation is a- loss of freedom- in that in order to buy into a world of sheer bliss one must then deny the very essence of their nature, the detrimental aspect of this denial is the denial of discovery, the denial of questioning self- hood, utopia is the giving away of your freedom to choose and construct your way of-being-in – the world, free from social and family structuring.

    “Freedom is a created concept only while we are strapped in the tension within the resistance of our essential natures, the essence of which we attempt to dominate at our fear of understanding and lack of knowing. Essence is a force for its own containment and therefore is already free.”
    -Copywrited material

    Utopia/Infatuation is self deception and is at the core, an animation of our narcissistic, righteous and power seeking behaviours, of which have been projected onto us, shackling us to a mirage, an illusion to which we unconsciously drown in, a slow asphyxiation of both our capacity and desire to become intimate with our selves, and making the other and the world responsible for our sense of lack.


    Of this spot she wrapped herself
    Around the fallacy to pull of it seeds of truth
    Spread open as the shuttle pokes into the tension
    Causing the warp to weft itself in and out as the weave
    Oh Yes, this spot is fleeting of its hope
    Only to be pulled back inside
    We come, still here, and again
    The convex meniscus forms
    Our cohesion in the milky honey fluid warms
    Equal contrast refracting in this wet weave
    When the real touches its radiant, so willed is its imaginary
    This spot, Oh Yes, this spot
    Where nothing disappears
    Shedding, picking and battening
    Weaving our way through the sight of our disappearance
    Seduces us towards the light
    -Copywrited material

    The disempowering state of utopia/infatuation is anxiety, in that it creates a destabilized psychological space to where the emergence of two free beings is disallowed, punished, and ultimately through the attempt of annihilation, erodes both the dark and light of Eros. This is the simultaneous experience of being abused and to inflict abuse. We see this in our world no matter what direction we look, the frenetic craze of consuming the fairy tale, not only through the manipulation of objects, but also through what we are to adhere to in how we construct our relationships at all levels of intimacy.


    Terrior, this space of bearing
    First growth, drinking in of the Cru
    Quenched womb feeding the vines that wind the growth
    Hydrostatic equilibrium
    As we meander through the wet soil of becoming
    Held in suspensions
    Hands form of this golden chalice
    Sipping in the oxidation wine
    The chalice comes into flames, as the palette creates from this its own taste
    We drink from this to become
    We become to drink from this
    Sliding in and out of temptation to resist growth
    We believe in this and the heart forms a reach to open another door
    We then believe in something else
    Picking berries with our eyes
    Scents imprinted in these strands, creating the ever budding vineyard
    Rest here under the shade of these sacred vines
    Terrior, this place of bearing
    Drinking in the Cru as the journeys become the seasons of our lives
    -Copywrited material

    Meeting another in healthy relation, is to co- create a landscape that honors the other as whole and is fed with empathy, a never ending fuel line that promotes the growth of ones own self with the only recourse being the reverence towards the observation and support of the others capacity to grow in a multitude of directions, or not.

    We need to courageously supply empathy towards and subsequently traverse our own traumas in order to best facilitate our healing, as everything that we give out has affect on our personal and collective world.

    “One must exercise a patient awareness with the sometimes intense onset of relation. The fool of self-deception will desire the constant hot flames, while the wise will call for the rains.”
    -copywrited material

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for your observations F&R, I am pleased you liked the posts. Interestingly, a couple of points you advance accord with comments recently made by Dr O. I also think meniscus is a marvellous word.

      1. TheFlowerandRock says:

        You are welcome, I thank you for accepting my post. As it was my initial wish for these conversations to form and evolve, I am then also finding myself pleased. We can rejoice in this. Thank you for courageously sharing your attendance towards your own personal process. Meniscus, yes, I agree is a marvellous word of which I also enjoy the experience of saying it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. I find “plinth” equally satisfying to say along with “wankel rotary engine” , “spoonerism” and “cacophony”.

          1. TheFlowerandRock says:

            I enjoy to say Albuquerque, linguistics, Ineluctable and Yes is my ultimate.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Ah yes Albuquerque is a good word, especially when combined with hot dog and jumping frog.
            Unsurprisingly, me and no are personal favourites too.

          3. TheFlowerandRock says:

            Diggity diggity ….unbeknownst to you, me, no and we, are personal favorites of mine as well. This of course is because our trajectory is identical, however what we do upon arrival is polarized.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I understand the arrival point. That makes sense. Explain to how our trajectories are similar.

          5. TheFlowerandRock says:

            I will indeed lend this explanation, however we are not there yet in this conversation that is being created. In the interim, I will again ask of you to consider reflecting on synergy

      2. Joa says:

        Interesting, convex meniscus and concave meniscus – I like to use these words as a comparison 🙂

        It’s amazing, how many people don’t know what I’m talking about. It was an elementary school physics lesson… You don’t drink tea?

        1. A Victor says:

          Haha, very good Joa! My son recently reminded me of the meniscus, he is a newish pharmacy tech so it was fresh on his mind!

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Soo great like all you write. I totally ❤️ This below.

      One must exercise a patient awareness with the sometimes intense onset of relation. The fool of self-deception will desire the constant hot flames, while the wise will call for the rains.”

      I totally feel in love with those sentences.
      Bless you 🙏🏻🙏🏻☀️

      1. TheFlowerandRock says:

        Hello Nikita. Thank you for your kind words and I am humbled that you have found resonance in my words. Use them. Much love and respect to you

  12. I would be willing to bet that if I was a man, none of you ladies would have your panties in such a knot.

    The dynamic playing out here is incredibly interesting to me, for a number of reasons.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do expand on those reasons B&T.

  13. Well Bethany, we have something in common then – we both make each other sick.

  14. I would also like to point out that, if I am indeed a narcissist as all you medical professionals clearly seem to think I am, then your emotional responses to my comments are giving me the fuel I want, need and crave.

    So please, do continue.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Mother, how many profiles have you got these days?

      1. Now HG, don’t you know that flattery will get you everywhere?

        Besides, I’m too young to be your mother. 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That’s the type of thing you would say, mother.

  15. bethany7337 says:

    Blood and Thunder…

    I find it interesting and infuriating That your comments are laden with contempt toward many who have suffered “decimation” due to deliberate deception by a person who claimed to care about and have feelings for them while going to extraordinary lengths to deceive them into believing as such. Yes, we have been guilty of being naive, codependent, overly empathic and even idealists. And have paid a price …a heavy one and seek to remedy those blind spots within ourselves that made us vulnerable to an emotional predator that had but one goal: idealize, devalue, discard. Use, confuse, manipulate.

    I am curious about the contempt and judgement you seem all too ready to fling on those affected by the Narcissist and yet make solicitous remarks of support to the Narcissist in the same post. Your lack of empathy and dismissive disregard for the pain caused by deception are similar to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she was not dressed properly and should have known better.

    Perhaps you are a Narcissist too?

    1. Kim says:

      Bethany, the thought that blood & thunder is a narcissist are precisely my thoughts. I chose not to address this because clearly a response is what is desired. The comments posted are blame shifting in theirselves & clearly of disfunction. I’m thrilled for HG that he has someone on this forum that supports his values. After all, everyone is deserving of such, right?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Written like a true empath Kim!

        1. Kim says:

          Thank you HG. The “program” is strongly embedded in my being. I am now capable of running the program with an awareness to protect myself. Thanks to you!!!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No problem.

      2. You all seem like fairly intelligent people. The minute someone comes here and speaks honesty about their feelings, etc. they are labeled a narcissist.

        Just because I won’t sit and cry and whine and woe is with me with you all?

        At the end of the day, I’d rather hold court with the narcissists than buy stock in Kleenex and cry with all of you.

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Totally agree with Betany on this one.
      To open up your heart to love somebody is a risk to being hurt but I dont see why there should be guilt put on the people when they do end up hurt. Its monstrous to look at it like that. 😨😨😱

      1. Funny it’s monstrous when I do it, but when HG does it, it’s fine.


        1. nikitalondon says:

          Hi B&T

          I did not label you as a narcissist as I dont know you but your sentences are really yes montrous.
          “As much as you play a role in the decimation of those you target, they too play a very significant role and are not without blame”
          So you say all victims of narcissistic abuse are guilty. They inflicted it on themselves

          As for HG. this is the objective of his forum to tell and explain why he does like he does and did.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I would just like to point out that I never decimate anybody. A tenth is never anywhere near enough.

          2. nikitalondon says:

            OMG … 1/50?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I don’t understand the 1/50 Nikita?

          4. nikitalondon says:

            Hi HG
            😂 I understood decimate as to tear somebody in tenths? And your sentence that its nowhere near, then made me ask you if in 50ths … But maybe I misunderstood something.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You are correct that it means reduce by a tenth. Most people think it means something akin to obliterate. I mean that a tenth is too little. I take more but not everything.

        2. Contagious says:

          It’s obvious that this forum is not designed to hurt anyone. It is designed to help people. You too if that’s what you seek:)

    3. While you berate me for judging you (victims), your anger toward my comments compels you to judge me. I do so love hypocrisy.

      I also enjoyed the part where you tried to psycho-analyze me with your “unhealed parts of me” bit. It made me smile.

      I`ve stated elsewhere on this blog that I am not well-known for my empathy.

      I was agreeing with HG`s assessment of the situation., Why? Because I agree with him. Simple concept really.

      People who cry victim make me sick to my stomach. You have two choices in life – cry and whine and expect everyone to feel sorry for you or rise above and become stronger in all areas of your life.

      I admire those who rise up. It sounds to me like you are one of the people who did rise up, so if you want to get right down to it, it wasn’t people like you I was talking about in the first place. 🙂

      1. bethany7337 says:

        Yes I have risen up indeed and in doing so have no problem voicing my distaste for people who exhibit no empathy. People who have no empathy make me sick to my stomach. HG is a self proclaimed and clinically diagnosed malignant narcissist. What’s your exuse?

      2. Contagious says:

        BT: you seem to confuse being a victim. Someone harmed by an unjust force. Ie death, rape, theft, bodily harm and how you perceive they should recover from this UNJUST harm afflicted on them. No one asked for harm. It happened. Some may react by forgiveness and turning the other cheek, others an eye for an eye, some may be resilient and grow like a lotus flower through the cracks ( Tina Turner biography), others may choose suicide, some might choose legal justice systems, some may let the abuse become the air they breathe and carry it downward, others may turn to drugs and alcohol, or pills, others might join communities like this site to find others to share their stories and grow with understanding. But being human is to possibly be a victim… being someone at risk of unjust harm. Your analogy reminds me of the documentary I watched where an Indian girl was gang raped in a bus and instead of support, they blamed her. To me if A equals B and B equals C then A equals C. Logic and reasoning determines an unjust harm does not equate with victimhood.

  16. I have been through a lot in my life, none of which I care to share here. But every single trial and tribulation has taught me a valuable lesson and helped shape me into the person I am today.

    I have grown and learned and moved forward. I am thankful for everything I’ve ever gone through. I am also capable of acknowledging the role I played in each situation and can take full responsibility for the role I played.

    Most people cannot because playing the victim and blaming everyone else is so much easier than admitting you may have contributed to your own downfall.

    Victim = weak, sad, helpless, useless.

    Victor = strong, capable, enlightened and dangerous.

    1. bethany7337 says:

      I consider myself to be one who has emerged stronger, more enlightened, very capable and indeed a richer, more empathic and wiser woman than ever before and certainly as a result of the traumas I have exoerienced in relationship to the Narcissist. My life speaks for itself in terms of growth and hapoiness. I have stated several times that I have gratitude for the outcome of how I have chosen to move forward.

      Gratefully, I have emerged through this as a more compassionate and kind human being and can own my part in the choices I’ve made while being compassionate toward myself and others. Your victim blaming stance suggests you are uncomfortable with those unhealed parts within you. It’s hard to see true victory in one who describes them self as dangerous…unless it’s damage you seek to cause.

      1. Joa says:

        That’s a beautiful statement from Bethany.

      2. Contagious says:


    2. Contagious says:

      Again your definition is wrong. Look it up. A victim is someone who has suffered an unjust harm such as death, rape, theft. The result is sad. If you ask me, the perpetrator weak, useless, helpless. Perhaps in a just setting like a boxing match, a court of law ( ummm caveat) or sports game your definition of Victor would apply. But you are missing a piece of the equation BT

  17. I happen to especially love this post because it is essentially exactly true.

    People build up this totally unattainable utopian idea of what a relationship should be based on the unrealistic stereotypes and expectations that get jammed down their throats from the time they’re born.

    It’s that whole “prince charming on a white horse happily ever after” illusion that was discussed in a previous post. It doesn’t exist. It’s a sham – an illusion most will spend their lives trying to bring to fruition only to be beaten down with the reality that it simply isn’t possible.

    HG is right – his kind take your utopic ideals and bring them to life……for a short time. Then the reality of this ludicrous fairytale dream comes crashing down around you and you’re left to whine and cry victim.

    If anything, in this case, HG should be thanked for pointing out the error of your ways and shedding the harsh light of reality on your delusions.

    I know plenty of women (most not married to Narcs, by the way) who are unhappy with their marriages or relationships because their men don’t live up to this ridiculous standard they’ve been brainwashed to have.

    HG is dead on – YOU did start it with your fairytales and prince charmings, so how can you be disappointed when a world that can never exist is exposed for what it really is – a total impossibility?!?!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Looks like someone has my back.

      1. Because I cannot listen to people whine about their dreams falling apart and blaming others when in reality, it`s their own distorted and unrealistic expectations that lead them down the path of disappointment.

        I am not afraid to say that in many instances, I agree with your take on things. As much as you play a role in the decimation of those you target, they too play a very significant role and are not without blame.

        I imagine it`s quite a lovely back to have….

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is indeed and I shall be interested to see what others make of your take on matters, the whole victim v volunteer debate is fascinating and thankfully emotional.

    2. T says:

      You do have a point, b&t!

      As little girls that fairytale has been ingrained in our psyches and anything less than a man being a knight in a white horse makes him a failure in our eyes. So true…..

      Through all of my N’s I have learned this: I can be a lady on a white horse. That lady can take care of herself, forgive those that hurt her, and handle any situation with honesty, class, and grace….

      1. Kim says:

        T, I concur with you. We are led to believe the fairy tale exists as children, but if you’ve so called lost in love, you soon abandon the fairy tale theory. You began to realize that all you really need is this life is to be happy with yourself. One must work hard & long to break my barriers that past Ns have caused me to build.

        1. T says:

          Kim, my mother always told me to never make the new guy pay the last guys freight.
          I lived by those words my whole dating life.
          However, that last guy….N3…breached a level of trust and confidence I had never experienced before.

          The other N’s weren’t as “good” at being an N as N3 was…does that make sense? I think because they “foreshadowed” more in the beginning….and although I trusted them on a surface my heart….I knew something wasn’t right.

          I think what made N3 so good was how he mirrored me. The others N’s were so proud of who they were…and took pleasure in being superior to me(in their eyes only). N3 mirrored all of my super-traits. He became the man I wanted and needed. He wanted to secure me so badly and so fast. I never fell so in love-and it felt mutual….I’m not sure it wasn’t for a while…
          He fell in love with ME. Not my looks like most men….but my personality and my mind….my kindness and sense of humor too…..

          Once I was hooked….he started to relax….and I wondered where he went….and who was this guy that hijacked his body and mind? I couldn’t do or say anything right and I annoyed him all the time. I’m still not sure what really happened….

          I’ve changed through all of this….I trust nobody, and I blow off nice men….

          I now have walls and barriers….and others are paying the last guys freight…😟

    3. Joa says:

      Not true. I have never dreamed of a Prince nor wanted to be a Princess.

      I do not even remember having ever dreamed of a wedding or a wedding dress – elements completely unnecessary in life (for a show or a ladder point to be achieved).

      I was creating a utopia for myself and for him. So that we both transcend each other and become better. I did not require anything from him, that I myself could not give.

      Unfortunately, I thought the stairs only lead up one place. It turned out, that another person’s destination may look completely different.

      I’d rather cheer than knock down.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You have gone way, way back there Joa in replying to this comment!

        1. Joa says:

          I don’t know, if it’s about the comment’s time distance or its content?

          If it’s about time, propably it doesn’t bother? I learned to move back and forth along the timeline by interacting with N. 🙂

          As for the content, I mainly referred to the sentence Bloodandthunder: “It’s that whole “prince charming on a white horse happily ever after” illusion that was discussed in a previous post.”

          My expectations for others, are and have always been very modest. In fact, I am a human with almost zero expectations of other people (my mother used to say, that I was without ambition, but that’s not true – it was just that HER ambitions did not suit me). However, I have slightly higher expectations of the people I love and be friends with (partner, child, friend, family member). And a high level of self-expectations.

          Going back to the princesses and princes – me and my sister never played with dolls. Boredom. We both didn’t want to grow up, and we both didn’t want to have children of our own.
          We loved stuffed animals 🙂 I still have the teddy bear, that I got on the day of my birth. He is so tiny, and he was much bigger than me (I was a 1 kg premature baby). He was my companion for many years. Repeatedly stitched and darned by me, with eyes, ears, nose and limbs stitched, with almost no filling inside. Very exploited, but he is the most beautiful! Retired for 35 years, he rests in the wardrobe with souvenirs 🙂


          Just not “way back”, please 🙂 These words are forbidden for me 🙂

      2. A Victor says:

        Hey Joa, thanks for bringing this thread up! I so relate to the whole thing, I loved Cinderella and Prince Charming and would literally daydream about that as a young girl. Not my wedding, only really about the feelings that would be evoked upon meeting my PC. I don’t think I started it though, it was put into my head via books and movies and I have no idea who came up with the original but by the time I was hearing it, likely very romanticized. And possibly by a narcissist or two. I think it is not uncommon for young people, probably more young women than men, and probably more empaths than others, to dream of romance and the feelings and future hopes etc. Not that all do, certainly, but I know that I did. And it became an escape for my horrible home life and then it was all crushed by the demise of my marriage. I think that is yet another reason it has been so hard to consider another relationship since. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts, it was interesting reading them and thinking about this.

        1. Joa says:

          AV, you didn’t understand me. Let me explain 🙂

          I am a hopeless dreamer and an advocate of love and friendship.

          I also liked Cinderella 🙂 It perfectly matched my trait of suffering (which I ALMOST eliminated over the years, mocking myself for these terrible tendencies) and the appearance of a savior, enchanted by the beauty of her soul and obsessed with looking for her throughout the kingdom, ha ha ha: )

          I still want it: “Look at me!”

          But I’ve never dreamed of a wedding and a veiled gown. Completely uninteresting. In fact, even in fairy tales, this finale is usually described briefly 🙂

          Love = devotion, affectionate friendship, common direction – they are enough 🙂

          PS Of the two versions of Cinderella, I always preferred this girl rummaging through the ashes and talking to pigeons, than dancing at the ball in a beautiful dress (boredom).

    4. Contagious says:

      Well if statistics mean anything… more than half end in divorce. Second marriages have a 65% rate. Third have a 75% rate. Many Youth today don’t marry. Are they following the stats? I had a client say that those married about 20% live like brother and sister. Another 20% just want a divorce. This leaves 10% happy or well compromised. Sounds dreary. Yet, we all see that one old couple married over 50 years at the park holding hands gazing lovingly in each other’s eyes. It’s not tv. They exist. I think what Adele sang is true, “ none of the people she knows are satisfied.” I think it’s all perception. No job, relationship, person or even yourself is going to be perfect. The ideal is not ideal. It’s gratitude and acceptance at the simple joys that exist everywhere and with everyone. The happiest marriages I know and there are not many, but marriage takes work. I believe happy marriages exist and are possible. I also think it’s not for everyone.

  18. Yo says:

    Not the 1st time when i think that MNs act as prostitutes in the golden period.
    I tried to imagine if i could show love and act as a truly inlove toward somebody, even a good guy buy if i dont feel anything regarding him.

    The answer is NO. Coz it s extremely boring. U just dont like him and dont want to spend time with him. U dont want to learn what he likes. U dont want to touch him.

    =》 it s a miserable life MNs have: they have to act as a lover without being a lover. MNs = prostitutes.
    Paid by illusion of power.

    1. malignnarc says:

      Who’d have thought it; narcissism the oldest profession in the world.

      1. nikitalondon says:

        This was funny.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        I’m noting those words down “narcissism the oldest profession in the world”. It’s like one of those famous quote sayings and how apt, no other way of stating it as such really.

  19. nikitalondon says:

    Reading this was nice and it took me back to when I got married ( except for the material as we only had our diplomas and not even a job) and to when I started a relationship after one year of being separated ( less of the above above but still some elements) and had read soo much about relationships and personal growth that I was sure that time it was going to be “utopia” . At the end it was at all utopia, I did not really ask for such an utopia nor start anything but anyway I learned alot from all the failed utopias and further studying on relationships.
    The utopia described above, it exists only in our minds and movies and novels and stories program our minds us for having this, wanting this, starting this utopia etc.

    Utopia after all what has happened and all what I have read and studied looks veeery different than what is described above. Very different.
    Looks nothing like the above. Its based on some core values and other elements not listed above…
    Thanks for posting. This was such a pleasure to read as always. Its always a pleasure because of the differenr emotions and memories and sensations your writings produce. Its the same door but entering always to something different and this is fascinating.
    Have a very nice and looking always forward to read you . Always.
    Its a very nice feeling when the email of
    New post appears on my display 😘😘😘💓💓. Utopia 💓💓

  20. I swear I thought you were going to start talking about shattering the Utopia in great detail and how everything was always eventually left in rubble while we sat there watching a new one being constructed down the street. Or via Social Media. Thank you for sparing us the demise. Although I suspect most of us have experienced the devastation ourselves in grand glorious technicolor. ✨

  21. T says:

    …..we started it….but you finished it…..

    Empath’s don’t lead people on and make them believe in illusions. This isn’t a criticism….it’s just letting you know that we do see life through a different lens.

    The minute I’m not feeling a guy….I let him know. We both deserve a relationship filled with enough love and passion for each other to last our whole lives together….anything less than that is cheating him and cheating yourself ❤️

    1. Yo says:

      100% with u dear T

  22. bethany7337 says:

    It was. For a time, I felt as God had written and filled an Rx for my longing heart. ExN uncannily knew every emotional button to push to cause me to believe I had found my soulmate. He did finish my sentences, reAd my mind, spoke of protecting me, made me laugh at the smallest of things. He “got me” as I had never been gotten before and better yet he loved all the quirky things that made me me. I didn’t understand it – I truly thought he was sent from God to me as a gift.

    I grew up affluent surrounded by wealth and the finer things in life but none of those things have mattered to me in terms of choosing a mate. I was far more happy with packing a picnick and sitting down by the river watching the sunset or sharing a humble meal of take out – just to be with him.

    It still amazes me how you know what we want to the level you do. I don’t remember being super communicative about my wants and needs, so weird how he just knew. I would like to understand that one more HG.

    1. malignnarc says:

      The knowledge about knowing what you want is compiled from various sources. We rely on the massive Library Of Love that is society, films, books, poems, music,media and so on which constructs this notion of love and so many of you buy into it so we just replicate what you have been conditioned to expect. We fine tune it during our targeting of you asper Sitting Target and you yield your desires to us during seduction – sometimes explicitly and sometimes in a subtle fashion as well. Keep in mind we have had plenty of practice at this working out what someone wants and giving it to them that we become intuitive to it when we select a new target. Add all of this together and this is why we appear like an angel, “get you” and are you soul mate. You also buy into this. You want it so much that you actually interpret our behaviours in the way that suits you best and makes you happy because of your perception. Perception is an interesting device. Someone finishes your sentences a handful of times and you focus on that and think it is wonderful, yet how many sentences did he not finish for you, probably 99%,but it is the 1% that sticks in your mind and we play on this imbalance to our advantage.
      A number of years ago, a study was conducted whereby a number of students were given a T-shirt with an offensive slogan embossed on it. The slogans were different for each student. They were told to walk one by one through their student union during a crowded evening. This was done on different evenings, one student per evening, over a period of time.There were several hundred people in the student union. Each student was then asked, “How many people do you think noticed your T-shirt?” Answers were invariably along the lines of “nearly everyone I passed,” “lots” “hundreds” “about 200” and so on. A high number was always stated. The surveyors then asked the students in the union whether they had seen the slogan on the T-shirt. The number that had noticed? Never more than a dozen.
      The vast difference between actual perception and self-perception alters people’s thinking so that they believe something happens to them, is noticed about them etc far more than the reality and we utilise that to our advantage.

      1. bethany7337 says:

        Emotional rape is what you have just described.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Powerfully put.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        I loved that – the part about the students and their slogan’ed t-shirts. Ah! Reminded me of the one I wore (smirk).

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Yes the river, the mountains, picknick, barefoot, sunset… that is the best Bethany.

  23. Kim says:

    Hello HG, I have been following your for awhile now & have been impressed beyond belief. This one in particular has exceeded that & sends chills through my soul. I had gained sufficient knowledge through you to inform my ex N that I know what he really is. The hardest thing for me to grasp was that, every boundary I set & every expectation I placed on him was met yet it was merely a facade. Of course it was quite the opposite during my discard. My golden period lasted for 9 years. How is a facade able to remain so intact for that long? I was strongly disappointed when I told him that I’m not sure if I should be flattered or furious that he created a whole person just for me & he responded- well maybe I should be furious that you changed me into what you wanted me to be. He quickly retracted the statement. This interaction with him & the fact that I was ignored every time I expressed that I fully understood what he was, confirmed with me that he is the lesser of your kind.

    1. malignnarc says:

      Hello Kim, great opening sentence, thank you. You clearly provided for him to such a level that the illusion could be maintained. I suspect with him being of a lesser kind that not only did you fuel him sufficiently but you came with plenty of residual benefits which meant that he benefitted considerably and saw no need to commence devaluation for such a long period. I agree with your conclusion concerning his status.

    2. Cody says:

      Kim, you say your golden period lasted for 9 years but are you sure he wasn’t also seeing others on the side for additional fuel? What was the straw that broke the camel’s back- the thing that made you decide to get out in the 9th year? Welcome to the sister(and occasional but very rare brother)hood, by the way.

      1. Kim says:

        Of course I could never be certain there were no other sources. I grew up with a pastor Father, who instilled such beliefs that tends to generate human door mats. The usual endless forgiveness, treat others good no matter how they treat you, love people for who they are but show them the “good” ways, etc, I could go on & on. My entire family oozes continuously & endlessly of fuel I assure you. He was always eager to attend church & family functions to harvest the fuel & never in a hurry to depart. I could not move about in our house without his presence nor be anywhere public without him. He worked away from home the same as I, however I have a grown son who he rode to work & home with & a teenage son who was home upon his return. I’m far from denying that it could happen but it would of been almost impossible. My son has always been skeptical of the N & very verbal if he even suspected anything.

  24. I’ve learned a lot from you HG. Watched the YouTube video today too. I appreciate the knowledge. But this? I’m sorry but it is just plain old despicable. You’re taking a loving, caring person and creating a life of lies. No. Sorry, she did not ask for that. She did not start that. She did not ask to be ruined for a mirage. It’s really too bad that you all don’t target bad people or other narcs. Now there’s an idea! Leave us loving idealists to find honest love.

    1. malignnarc says:

      I understand your ire Jules and yes it is despicable but it is the way it is and telling it how it is, is part of what I must do. Targeting the bad people won’t yield the same results though and needs must.

  25. Cara says:

    In Sir Thomas Moore’s Utopia, they made chamber pots out of gold. And if I remember right, Utopia was really Outopia, the “perfect” place that never existed, never will.

    1. malignnarc says:

      Indeed Cara, Sir Thomas More also wrote, “All things appear incredible to us, as they differ more of less from our own manners” which sounds like an empath talking about the behaviour of my kind.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Yes! Yes! Yes! Good on Sir Thomas More! I am so glad to read this comment, HG 🙂

        I got up early to annoy the fk out of some narcissists that may be shopping 🙂 They won’t see me coming……

        1. Joa says:

          Asp Emp, thank you! You discovered another HG text, that I didn’t know.

          I’m glad, that I still have something to get out of this piggy bank 🙂

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Joa, thank you 🙂 Yes, I had the fortune to cover ‘A Man For All Seasons’ at school in English Literature, by a great teacher – good film made in 1966 with Paul Scofield as Sir Thomas More, I even remembered the actor’s name!, Googled to double-check my facts. Worth viewing it. Bless you, “piggy bank” (cheeky though 😉 ).

      2. Contagious says:

        I didn’t like the Big Brother effect of Utopia. No privacy so people would behave well….or was it so the people could be controlled….he is the Patron Saint of Lawyers….

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