The Second Post Discard Battle – Heart versus Head



The first battle that takes places post discard is the Emotional Battle. That is a battle that you are always destined to lose. You will always fight at least one Emotional Battle because you do not know any other way. In all likelihood, you will face several of these post discard battles because you will keep being hoovered back into our grasp until such time as you learn to recognise what you are dealing with and understand what you must do. Eventually and this may take several Emotional Battles before you realise this and are capable of achieving the appropriate response, you either evade the Emotional Battle by escaping as opposed to being discarded, or you prepare yourself for the eventual discard in a manner which means you no longer have to ensure the Emotional Battle. Instead, you move on to the next post discard battle, that of Head versus Heart (“the HvH Battle”).

The HvH Battle (also known as the Logic v Emotion Battle) is a battleground where you stand some chance of victory. This battleground is one where you have gained understanding. It might be through your repeated exposure to our kind so that eventually something has “clicked” into place or more often than not it is as a consequence of an external agent who has explained matters to you. It might by a therapist, a friend, the content of a book, something you saw on YouTube or even something that I have written. Whatever has caused this understanding to increase, it is this which provides you with the fighting chance to win this HvH Battle.

You have been discarded and run the gamut of emotional fall-out thereafter. You may understand what we are. You may understand some of the things that we have done. You may be familiar with the fact that we will try to hoover you back into our grip. You may even be starting to comprehend that what has happened was all predicated on an illusion. The degree of understanding will vary but what is important for you is that you are allowing logical thought to be heard above the raw heat of your emotions. You once again will not just be battling against us but also yourself. We will be looking to hoover you in order to draw you back into our grip or perhaps we will be unleashing a malign hoover since we are unable to draw you back into our false reality and therefore we opt to keep extracting negative fuel by way of punishment for your treachery. You have us as an opponent, but you will also be fighting yourself as your emerging logic grapples with the still churning emotion. You have learned many things and you know you should apply what you have learned but still there is the emotional pull that you experience. You are not removed or detached from your emotions, they have not dimmed either, they are still there, raging away. The hurt, the love, the longing, the passion, the fear and the upset. An ocean of emotion which you once tried to cross but that was the Emotional Battle and you had barely taken four strokes as you began to swim before you were engulfed by the emotion and sank to the bottom of this sea, drowned by your own emotion. Now you have built a vessel. It is made from cool, hard logic. Critical thinking, once a stranger to you during your savage devaluation, has re-appeared. You can analyse and assess. It is unlikely you are able to do so at the level you once enjoyed before we came along but it is there. Whether this vessel is a tiny raft, a dinghy, a boat or a hulking great liner depends very much on the extent of your understanding. The choppy emotional seas will smash against your vessel of logic. A wave of sorrow will buffet you, a tsunami of longing will threaten to swamp you once again. Wave after wave of emotion will try and capsize your vessel as you try to navigate this emotional ocean. Chances are your life raft will be smashed to match wood and you will be tipped into the sea to drown once again as emotion subsumes you and you find yourself back in our hold. Your clipper may be holed beneath the waterline and you start to take on board more and more emotion as steadily you sink beneath the emotional waves once again. It is during this HvH Battle as you try to cross the emotional ocean, because what you must do is reach the dry land beyond and in effect put an ocean but you and us, you will be subjected to the push and pull of your emotions trying to guide you, to control your decision-making, your head will tell you one thing as your heart screams something else at you. This is probably the harder battle for you to fight. In the Emotional Battle, you do not stand a chance and your defeat is swift and total. During the HvH Battle you will make gains, suffer losses, seem to making a breakthrough and then out of nowhere a tidal wave will flip you from your boat and into the churning ocean and you drown once again. All the while we will be whipping up the waves, firing our torpedoes at you as we endeavour to cause you to sink into this emotional ocean yet again and you fail to cross it and win this battle. How might this HvH Battle manifest in the real world?

  1. You will know you ought not to contact us but you need to send a message to see if we respond.
  2. You will keep checking our social media profiles to ascertain if you are mentioned, if we are with somebody else and/or to find out what we are doing.
  3. You will ask about us to our coterie and lieutenants, often unwittingly doing so, so this is fed back to us.
  4. You will go on dates but find you are always comparing this new person to us and they are always found to be wanting.
  5. You know what the outcome will be but you just want one more night with us.
  6. You realise that we are unlikely to change but if you do not try you will ever know, so it is worth one more attempt to talk isn’t it?
  7. You understand much of what we did and said was a lie, but surely it could not all have been an illusion? There must have been times where we really did love you and you need to ask us about this.
  8. You know we are bad for you, but you cannot help what you feel. Surely it would be better to stop this pain from being there all the time and just have it occasionally?
  9. You know you should not reply to our messages but it feels so good to have a conversation with us again. It has been too long.
  10. You know we are using you, but it feels so damn good.
  11. One kiss cannot hurt can it?
  12. You know better now, so going back will be different because you know what to expect. Armed with this new knowledge you can enter the lion’s den again but be better prepared.
  13. You know we are bad for you but you cannot bear the thought of someone else being with us and perhaps being the one to work.
  14. What if this time the apology is sincere and the desire to change is real? If you walked away from that, you would only be denying yourself happiness wouldn’t you?
  15. You understand engaging with us is dangerous but there are things you really need to tell us.

These and others besides are all examples of the inherent tension that arises in this tug-of-war between your cool intellect and your burning emotions.

Can you win this battle that rages post discard? Unlike the first battle, the Emotional Battle which you can never win, you can be victorious. You may have to fight this HvH Battle many times before securing the win. In the beginning you may be clinging to little more than a log as you desperately try to sail the emotional ocean and you are swept from it. However, by reading and understanding, by disciplining yourself to apply logic, to prevent your emotions from engulfing you, by reading more and increasing your knowledge you will begin to increase your logic vessel. From log to raft to dinghy. Still you may be swamped and drowned again. But then it becomes a small boat, a yacht, a clipper, a steamer, a passenger liner, a frigate, a destroyer and a super tanker. Each time you rebuild, better, bigger and stronger as you learn more, making the vessel more seaworthy. You begin to chart routes so you avoid the most tumultuous emotional areas, finally beginning to steer through calmer waters until there it is, on the horizon, the sight of land and the final battle that occurs with our kind post discard.

The HvH Battle is not an easy battle. You will fight it several times, but each time you should be better prepared to cross the emotional ocean and improve your prospects of success. Sometimes you are taken unawares by some of our provocative tactics and dumped unceremoniously into the water once again, but it is a battle you can win through the dedicated application of knowledge and understanding.

63 thoughts on “The Second Post Discard Battle – Heart versus Head

  1. Disbelief says:

    Hello, over 4 months no contact except for a few responses here and there, I now know that my responses will keep him coming back for even a hint of reaction from me. And I hate it but I wanna mess with his head how he has mine! Is that sick or what? From reading your amazing writings and books I believe him to be a mid range victim n. Anyway, my ex n has now went from trying to get me back with him to well can’t we just be friends, what’s the thoughts on that? I’m assuming he must have a new primary source by now, bless her soul. And what wants to triangulate her with me or vise Versa? Or maybe he’s so wounded from me leavening him and going no contact he wants to suck me in so he could discard me to make himself feel better? I’v gone weaks upon weeks with giving no responses whats so ever, the hoovers have been less but then he’ll go full force again confessing his love for me and how lost he is without me, drive bys at work, notes left and Ext. I wanna play his head game but not shure I should attempt it being I still have some emotions still there for this man. But how I wanna mess with his head, that I do.

  2. Unicorn says:

    Ok the first stage was brutal and emotional exactly as described. I am in this stage now, head versus heart. I am thinking through everything and definitely have connected the dots along with a huge amount of research on the subject. My ex has secured not one but two girlfriends that are providing endless supply to him. They both have contacted me proclaiming how much my five year relationship didn’t compare to the love they have with him. I told them what he is and engaged for a short while in “but I can prove it was the same for me, just wait!” Of course they did not believe anything I said and their contact was only a bait and way to intimidate me as he has begun a full smear campaign with threats of “charges” etc.

    I ratted him out, he has new supply. I don’t see any reason for a Hoover at any point. There is no way for him to contact me by phone email or messenger, and I see no reason he would.

    Am I being naive thinking I’m free? The smear campaign the threats, its hell but he doesn’t have a case. That will fizzle he has many secrets to keep that he wouldn’t want out if this all was made public with “charges”.

    It can be final and over, in cases like this? No hoover?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is never over. However, you can reduce the risk and impact considerably so that the chances of being hoovered become very low. As ever, whether that will happen is governed by the Hoover Triggers and the Hoover Execution Criteria.

  3. Reblogged this on NarcMagNet69x96.

  4. MH says:

    I’ve been very good, 6 months NC and I’ve even ignored his approaches in public. I know he’s not capable of a healthy relationship and I am done.
    But I am occasionally haunted by the thought of how amazing angry sex would be.

    1. mlaclarece says:

      My downfall too!

  5. karen519 says:

    H G Thank You for showing me where I am. You are spot on. I have been seeing myself trying to swim going under and coming up for air sometimes in gasping for air. At least it’s starting to make sense now that I have starting reading your post. I intend to get some of your books and soon. Thank You for sharing your knowledge . I am starting to see why some things happened and where am doing good at times and horrible at other times.Again Thank You!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Karen.

  6. Blue1 says:

    Hi HG, I sent you an email with my questions the other day. Not sure if you received it or it went to your spam box? I know you are very busy with your articles and those questions. Just wanted to confirm. Thanks!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hi Blue1, I have it, it is in the queue !

  7. Blue1 says:

    Thank you! Questions sent.

  8. Shelley says:

    I like your article and very timely for me. i guess what confuses me, HG Tudor, is you are so self aware of who you are and what you are doing. I believe my N is not aware, which in a way, I guess I’m giving him a pass on bad behaviors. I find it hard to accept that anyone would knowingly treat someone so badly as Narcissists do. Am I just terribly naive? Appreciate your thoughts on this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is the difference on the spectrum. I wrote about this recently in Narcissist or Sociopath. Your N is most likely a lesser or mid-range who have no or little awareness of why they act as they do. The greater of our kind have awareness and because we deem such behaviour as necessary,we do it. Also bear in mind we are not hindered by remorse, guilt or compassion. Those emotions which you possess which would cause you to either not hurt somebody or feel bad if you did do so, are missing with us.

    2. Shelley says:

      Thank you for responding. I will search out your article.

  9. Nabal's wife says:

    I am still in the home with the N, along with 1 minor and 3 young adult children. I have detached emotionally for the most part but am stuck in the doldrums spot in the ocean where no current is forthcoming to move my vessel. (Not sure if I’m on a raft or boat). Can one be discarded yet the N never leaves? Besides taking care of the home, managing the minor child’s education which is my own private school via affidavit, what does he still get in fuel from me? I grey rock, there’s no intimacy for a year, I don’t care what he does now but he won’t move out. He has recently received thousands of dollars from his father’s death, which I assume I will never see or it being used for anything related to me, and I don’t care. What can I expect to happen next? Thanks.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Nabal’s Wife, yes you can be discarded in a situation where you remain in the same home but this would be evidence by what would in effect be a present silent treatment i.e. you are physically proximate to one another but there is no interaction between you. He will be obtaining fuel elsewhere, quite possibly through your children as well and also if he sees any reaction from you although I note you state you have detached emotionally. He won’t move out as he sees no reason why he should. Remember, he will regard the situation as your fault and therefore you should leave. He also has a sense of entitlement and that means he is entitled to the house. He may attempt hoovers against you or commence triangulation with you and his new primary source. He may even take steps to have you removed. Are divorce proceedings on foot? What steps have you taken to protect your interest in the house? Have you considered seeking assistance to have him removed from the property?

  10. 1jaded1 says:

    No one wins this game. Maybe the one who caused an N to become this way wins…and that is sad. Shame on them. You don’t get to show your caring self which exists bc they stifled it. I don’t get to feel anything but a facsimile of your caring self. We both lose. Only one winner and that aint us.

  11. Blue1 says:

    Hello HG,
    Do you have an email address I could please send a question to? With my questions, that would be most helpful. Thanks!

  12. fuel pump says:

    I’m there . . Crap! . I never knew what hit me ! .lol

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Great name!

  13. Leilani says:

    Very well expressed HG. An eye opener from 1-15. Emotions and feelings are still part of the illusion.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  14. Andria Baxter says:

    A brilliant piece


    Sent from my iPhone

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you

  15. Cody says:

    Some of your most powerful writing yet, HG, and you already set a pretty high bar.
    Just as there is only one true Golden Period per fuel source (not counting respites and hoovers), would it be correct to say there is only one Emotional Battle – the one that comes at the end of the Golden Period? Then every battle after that is what you describe here?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Cody, that is appreciated.
      Yes I would suggest there is one emotional battle although you may have several skirmishes within that battle. Once discarded you are mired in the emotion and trying to get through it, you are overwhelmed and lose the battle as you are sucked back in through a hoover. The discard comes again at a later stage and you are plunged back in to the emotional battle through another skirmish. You are overwhelmed again. On it goes until you realise not to engage in the emotional battle (e.g. you escape and move to the second battle direct) or you plan to ameliorate the effect of the emotional battle in readiness for the next discard so that in effect it becomes the second battle instead.

      1. Cody says:

        Makes sense. I think the reason why the Emotional Battle is (for us, not you) a lost cause is because the first time you discard us, it takes us completely by surprise. It IS the first time. (We have not yet learned it won’t be the last.). And being empaths of course we’re going to forgive and want everything to be golden again.
        It is only after the cycle has repeated again – and usually several more times – before we start to pick up on a pattern. And only then can we hope to have at least a fighting chance that the head can overrule the heart (and other body parts)…even though that is often a losing battle as well for all the reasons you list here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct Cody.

  16. Kim says:

    Hello HG!! I greatly appreciate the timing & how kindly you provide encouragement to my kind. Ive recently faced this battle & finally have managed to prevent the N to score. I honestly feel that I would never of been able to manage this without the knowledge & understanding I’ve gained through you sir. Perhaps it’s your brilliant presentation? Or maybe the ability you possess to provoke such intense emotions in others? Or could it be that the long years of familiarity with Ns have caused an obsession within myself? None the less, I am forever grateful to you it!! HG, may I ask, if you launch a series of attacks against us & they continually prove to be ineffective in harming us, what does that do to your kind?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for your kind words Kim and I appreciate you taking the time to say so. It is interesting to read what you believe it is that is so effective in the way I present my writing. I deliver what my kind are and what we do from our perspective and in a way that is accessible. If one considers the voices out there they roughly fall into the following categories. There are those who are victims/survivors who relate what has happened to them. There is naturally value in what they write and they do so in their own voice which other victims find accessible and understandable. They know better than anyone else what it is to be subjected to what we do. They may re-live the experience through their recollection and the interaction with fellow victims/survivors but no doubt they find it ultimately cathartic and draw solace from the collective. Then there are the professionals who (for the most part) have never personally experienced the narcissistic dynamic. Naturally there are people who have studied in the field for some time and they are of ability and their contribution is also valid in a different way. I gain the impression that their work is largely best directed at others in the academic field and the analysis often becomes shrouded in the esoteric language of the profession. I don’t embrace that approach because firstly I am not an expert in that sense. Whilst I hold post graduate qualifications they are not in the field of psychiatry or psychology. Secondly, I have avoided going down the scientific route in order to maximise accessibility to be people and because this is my experience, not someone else’s. The two people who know the dynamic best are my kind and the victims. Indeed many times people have contacted me explaining that their therapist etc did not understand narcissism. In fairness, the topics that therapists have to deal with are wide and they cannot be expected to master them all. There are plenty of victim voices but very few from my side of the fence and therein lies the value. I am telling you what I think, what I do and in turn how how our kind think and act. This is rarely heard and certainly it is rarer still for it to be delivered in such an accessible way which aids understanding. I do not hide what I am. I make it clear how I behave and why that is the case. It may not be comfortable to read what I write but I am not making anybody read it, I enjoy writing and I am allowing people to access a rare source which is written from my perspective, not anybody else’s. Perhaps it is that viewpoint which has assisted your knowledge and understanding.I ought to add that I respect anybody who interacts here in order to further their own understanding.

      1. bethany7337 says:

        But it is dangerous for us to stay here and so very difficult to leave. Sound familiar?

  17. nikitalondon says:

    Soo good ! You are so good in writing with lots of imagination and accurracy the exact emotions and feelings.. Wow

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

      1. anonymous says:

        HG, to what or whom do you owe your incredible insight?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Innate ability which has then allied with the provision of useful information from others.

  18. T says:

    I fell for HvH when I let N3 know about the deaths of my dad and stepmom. I should have just left well enough alone….but I felt I should have told him…he seemed to have liked them….all I did was open myself up for more abuse. However, after that….I KNEW what he was and called him out on being abusive (didn’t know he was an N, just abusive), and told him NEVER to contact me again…because he didn’t deserve me and he was cruel…..

    I suppose that was the reason for the malign hoover…..I have been no contact since Jan. 6, 2016!! (yay). Trying to figure out if the date of this malign hoover was special in any way….we were really happy last June at this time….we were very much in love…

    HG, I am curious what the third post discard post will tell us. I think I am there. Perhaps it’s too soon for both of us…but I have met a nice man, and we have been taking it slow. He is rebounding and I am healing…but we have fun together. No red flags…..he is steady, deliberate, and is not love bombing me. He is 6’2, handsome, police officer, seems honest, homeowner, a little younger, but mature…Not being love bombed…this feels rather strange to me…almost boring. However, it does feel “right” and “normal”. I have always been love bombed…and we know how those relationships turn out. We both may not be ready for anything too serious…but he is a nice distraction. 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello T, the distraction is key part of the post discard battlefield. The third battle looms tomorrow.

      1. T says:

        I haven’t checked his dating profile in a month. Not sure if he’s active or still looking. For my safety….should I see if he’s still active on there? Would that give any insight to what to expect next, HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It would be worthwhile as part of your due diligence to see what the position is. You can then consider how best to address the information you find.

          1. T says:

            I checked his Match profile, HG. He has been active in the last 24 hours….which means he’s lonely…and hasn’t found anyone that measures up (he is the type gets smitten on date one, and then love bombs said woman 500%–he hasn’t the energy for more than one woman at a time)….and this means (according to his twisted logic) that he will be angry at me for “ruining things”. I can hear him thinking aloud right now….*smh*

            This was the reason for him smashing my window. He knew that I’d know it was him…..he thinks that would have made me so angry…that I would called him to b*tch him out and give him negative fuel!!!

            I did not fall for it! I didn’t even post it on my Facebook page….(he might have spies on my page)…so he got ZERO FUEL out of me!

            Will he increase these malign hoovers? He owns many guns…should I be worried, HG?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Given the window smashing incident there is likely to be further malign hoovers. Whether they escalate remains to be seen. You are doing the right thing by not posting anything about the incidents where he may read about them. He will still get fuel from your imagined reaction because he knows what you are like but over time if he cannot see any reaction then the imagined fuel will become thinned for him. You notified the authorities didn’t you about window incident?

          3. T says:

            I did make a police report and I reported it to hospital security. They are keeping an extra eye on my car while I am at work. I park in my garage at home.Thanks, HG!

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Happy for you!! 👍🏻👍🏻

    3. bethany7337 says:

      T that is wonderful to hear that you are in good company! My therapist has encouraged me to push through feelings of a lack of intensity as being a good indicator that the relationship has a chance…

      1. T says:

        Thanks. Bethany! It does feel natural and normal….but it’s still strange to me….I had no idea that these dysfunctional relationships had given me such a twisted lens to judge what is normal…

        Most of my relationships have started out blazing with love bombing, dates most nights, constant text messages during the work day….promises of marriage on date 2, exclusively by date 4?! How did I ever see that as “normal”?! lol

  19. Bombshel20 says:

    I swear u wrote this for me right now! I’m in such a struggle addicted to something so vivacious and detrimental – but does calling u out on it instigate a bigger shitstorm

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It depends on the type of N you are dealing with. For some the criticism is too great and they withdraw to lick their wounds. For others they will lash out at you in an effort to draw more fuel to heal the wound you have caused. Read Fury and No Contact for more on this.

  20. Cara says:

    If I had half a brain, I wouldn’t engage

  21. Cara says:

    Oh this battle

  22. deedee244 says:

    Its like cognitive dissonance on steroids. This constant battle between the mind and heart is in itself debilitating. I can go from ,”Oh God please bring him back to me… I need him….To,” oh God please keep him away from me “in a matter of 30 seconds. I think God himself must be getting confused with my prayers.😉

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed Deedee, like the rise and fall of that emotional ocean you are ploughing through.

    2. T says:

      Deedee, this is normal! I lasted months in this stage…but IT WILL PASS! *hugs*

      1. anonymous says:

        Then there is hope?

  23. Kimberly says:

    I loved the hope..from log, to raft, to dinghy. … getting stronger..

    1. HG Tudor says:


  24. mlaclarece says:

    Jesus, you’re like the smooth talking crack dealer paying a visit to your favorite customer fresh out of rehab and not having a very good day with 1-15.
    Happy Hump Day to you too!

  25. Never has being stranded on a tiny vessel in the middle of a raging ocean sounded more beautiful.

    I may just have to go and put my cute little sailor outfit on and cast myself out to sea. Of course, I’ll be needing a Captain to steer my ship on the right course…..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Just pipe me on board and I’m there.

      1. I know with you at the helm HG, the journey would be exciting and most rewarding.

        I have already learned so much from your insight and observations. Every post opens my already wide and eager eyes even wider and gives me pause to reflect, consider and adapt accordingly.

        I am far from an empath (thank god), but there is much for one like me to appreciate and drink in from your beautiful, perfectly-articulated sentences.

        You really are doing a great service to all who darken your doorway. Don`t ever stop.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I’m obliged B&T and I don’t intend to stop.

  26. revengestar says:


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