The Greater Narcissist – Five Facts

the-greater-narcissist

 

The five central questions have been applied in respect if the Lesser and Mid-Range of our kind, but what of the Greater Narcissist? How do these five essential questions about the behaviour of the narcissist apply to him or her?

1.Do We Know What We Are Doing?

The Greater Narcissist is gifted (though of course his or her victims will not regard it as such) with an awareness of what he or she is. The greater of our kind knows that they are different. They know that they have this insatiable hunger for the outpouring of emotion, whether positive or negative, from those around them. The greater knows that there is a feeling of emptiness which pervades. Whilst the lesser has this manifest as sense of unease and irritation, the greater feels a yawning chasm which must be filled. The lesser operates by instinct, a knee-jerk response. The Greater Narcissist also operates through instinct but there is nothing knee jerk about him or her. This instinct is attuned in the sense of selecting the victims who will haemorrhage fuel. This instinct enables the most effective seduction, the most devastating devaluation and the most callous of discards. The instinct for scenting fuel and those who will provide it serves the Greater Narcissist considerably. He has an instinctive knack for selecting the best hunting grounds, an innate ability to target the most productive victims, a chilling capability to extract and exploit information and to cause people to think that what they are doing is a good thing and one they wish to take when in fact the Greater Narcissist is manipulating them. The Greater Narcissist is aware that he or she is different from other people. He or she knows that their emotional spectrum has been stunted or as we prefer to regard it, altered to achieve maximum efficiency in our machinations. The Greater Narcissist knows he operates in a different world to other people and revels in such a special status. He or she knows that they are superior, admired and feared.

  1. Do We Know We Hurt Others?

Unlike the instinctive response of the Lesser Narcissist or the considered but moderate reaction of the Mid-Ranger, the Greater Narcissist knows that he or she is an instrument that inflicts pain. Whether it is the withdrawal of something wonderful or delightful or the imposition of something unpleasant and hateful the Greater Narcissist knows that they hurt. They regard every action taken in this regard, every step, every machination as necessary for their survival and advancement. The Greater Narcissist fervently believes in the doctrine that the end always justifies the means. Pain, misery and hurt are by-products of the process which he or she must engage in. The inflicting of hurt on another person is regarded as a collateral consequence of the need to obtain fuel. The Greater Narcissist knows that during devaluation and the malign hoovers that the application of his or her behaviours is specifically directed to cause hurt. You will take the view that he or she does not care and you are correct in that view since the Greater Narcissist, like all narcissists is not created to care. What you ought to understand though is that this failure to care is actually secondary to the need to acquire fuel. If all that mattered was the inability to care, then we would administer hurtful behaviour all of the time. The reality is, the order of priority is that fuel must be obtained and during devaluation this causes hurt to other people and furthermore we are not designed to care about this hurt. By contrast, someone who is manipulating a dislocation back into place knows that pain will be occur but is a necessary consequence of the act. The difference is that this medic or doctor will care that the person is being put in pain and also seek to address that once the dislocation has been addressed.

  1. Do We Act Deliberately?

Everything that is done by the Greater Narcissist is deliberate. The lesser responds as a matter of course. The Mid-Ranger consider what action to take and do so with a sense of purpose but this pales compared to the behaviour of the Greater Narcissist. The actions that are taken are planned. The seduction is orchestrated from careful target selection, the reconnaissance of the subject and the gathering of information is organised and the seduction is methodical and deliberate. The Greater Narcissist does not speak without first considering how effective those words are. Are they to be used to elevate or denigrate? Praise or punishment? Elated or eroded. Like some great architect in the sky the Greater Narcissist, in accordance with his god-like view of him or herself sees other people as chess pieces which are moved in accordance to his or her wishes to cause check mate. The Greater Narcissist purposefully manipulates everybody around him or her. Each person has a role, a position and a purpose. The Greater Narcissist acts with considerable deliberation and indeed this need to position and pose all the players in the narcissist’s world results in the need to control being overwhelming. To be this deliberate in manipulating other people requires a significant degree of control over other people and therefore the Greater Narcissist will exercise his or her skills to achieve that outcome.

  1. Can We Control This Behaviour

Not only is the Greater Narcissist an expert in the control of others he exerts considerable control over his own behaviour. His higher functioning allows him considerable latitude to pass the blame onto others and feign an inability to control what he does.

“I don’t know what comes over me sometimes.”

“It as if something else takes control of me.”

“I cannot help it, it just happens.”

“It is like there is some other force that makes the decisions for me.”

All of these comments are lies. The Greater Narcissist is able to direct his ignited fury to a level and extent beyond the capability of others of our kind. This is why often cold fury is exhibited by Greater Narcissists as we are able to control the ignited fury so that it does not emerge as heated fury and rarely does it show in the form of physical violence. Such a reliance on such brutality through physical action is regarded as beneath the Greater Narcissist and is an insult to his Machiavellian mind. The Greater Narcissist revels in his higher function allowing him to devise and apply far subtler and rewarding manipulations. He or she is also mindful of the consequences of providing damning physical evidence of the abuse. The only time this formidable control weakens is when the Greater Narcissist is thrown into Chaos Mode as a consequence of a sudden and unseen cessation to his or her primary source of fuel.

5        Can We Stop It?

The Greater Narcissist could stop his or her behaviour owing to the degree of control that he or she is able to exert but whilst there is the capability to stop this behaviour, both benign and malign, the Greater Narcissist will not do so. Firstly, this is because the Greater Narcissist sees no need to. Why stop something that is highly effective and serves a purpose in allowing him or her to shine and function at some an impressive (to him or her) level? Why halt doing something which always delivers? Secondly, the Greater Narcissist will not stop this behaviour because the malevolence which runs through him or her will not allow him to do so. Why give up such a delightful way of manipulating someone? Why relinquish such power over an individual? Why stop flexing those machinations? Why stop doing something that is both necessary but also enjoyable? The lesser does because he is programmed to always respond in such a fashion. Choice has been removed from his thought process. The Mid-Ranger does because he realises it is necessary for his survival but there is not enjoyment or malice driving the behaviour. The Greater does because he or she can. The Greater does because he or she is driven by the furious malice which burns at the centre of the narcissist. This malice arises because the higher functioning Greater Narcissist is more aware than the others of his brethren just how unfair and brutal the world is. He is attuned to its attempts to depose and dethrone and he knows that engendering and harnessing this malice is entirely necessary for the purpose of protection. It is better to strike first than be struck. It is better to get the retaliation in first. He who dares wins. The Greater is a dangerous individual because not only does he regard what he does as entirely necessary, he is driven not only by the need for fuel but by the malice that is wrapped around his core. This means he goes further, longer, stronger and more often than others of his kind. He is the defiler, the punisher and the destroyer of worlds. Your worlds.

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122 thoughts on “The Greater Narcissist – Five Facts”

  1. I find your notion that the greater can stop it in contradiction to your answer to that question. “The Greater does because he or she is driven by the furious malice which burns at the centre of the narcissist.” To me, that speaks to a lack of control where the target is concerned.

    The Greater absolutely controls emotions when positive fuel is being supplied. And the Greater is in control when negative fuel is supplied. But the Greater loses all control when no fuel is supplied.

    In my case, the Greater did the “I want nothing more to do with your crazy, mentally unstable ass” discard. But as you’ve said, it’s really a disconnection. And now she’s everywhere I turn around.

    She needs to see me. To try to still have an effect on me. To see if I’m still affected by her. I don’t think she can control it because she knows that I know.

    I can honestly say she is the one person I wish I had never met.

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  2. I am very happy I have never met you HG. This is a horrifying confession. I wonder how you feel when you write it and then read all those critical comments from us. Most likely they do not bother you at all. They would not bother me, if I was in your shoes. We are just a bunch of lost souls. Complete strangers. Who would care? Only us, not you. But maybe your therapist think you do? Or you will? No. Impossible. But I am stupidity hopeful for you and wish you best. If the therapy does not work maybe waterboarding will :p (I am sorry for my dry sense of humor)

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    1. If the comments are ad hominem attacks against me (which is rare as most people here are respectful) it is fuel. If it is an articulate observation about me and my kind that is critical, it can sometimes irritate but I have sufficient control to not let it lead to an ignition of fury and I am also helped by the fact that I enjoy reasoned debate and discussion. I am torn between the desire to stamp down on anything which appears like an insurrection (this is my instinctive reaction) and then the application of control when I regard it as part of the debate. Most of the time though it does not bother me.

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      1. Do you have the editor reviewing your responses? Somebody who makes sure you are respectful or you don’t need it? Thanks a again for explanation.

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  3. I don’t know that I’d say I’m “gifted”…I learned from the best (my mother, who learned from her father) how to play the victim, play dumb, how to plot & scheme, how to show great rage. But I suppose any inheritance can be considered a “gift”, and this is one she passed onto me without having to die.

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  4. As I am gifted-and well practiced-in the ability to Empathize, I borrowed the mind of my Narc for a while. Just long enough to serve my purpose of going No Contact. And let me tell you folks, this is a well-oiled, well-constructed, mean machine.

    It also has a fatal flaw built in its construction, inherent in its malice, addiction, explosiveness, and emotional volatility. That flaw is actually very tiny, but it has massive consequences. That tiny flaw is called hope.

    It’s probably more present in the Greater Narc, but from what I understand, the more self-aware a Narc is the more attuned they are to the knowledge of their inner void. So, every time they need more Supply, they hope that this time-it will be enough. That they will be enough; satisfied, worthy, happy, free. That the feeling they crave will fill that void; more crucially, that it will be real.

    Of course, notwithstanding the fact that they have already attained it by ensnaring us. Notwithstanding the fact that by constantly abusing us, striking preemptively, and causing such chaos, they lose the very thing they want. That feeling, which Narcs dare not name (as mine certainly could not, for fear of shattering) and which they crave, is Love. It’s the logical complement to acceptance and understanding.

    Unfortunately, as a (maladaptive) defense mechanism, Narcissism excels. It does its job perfectly, with jaw dropping efficacy. The problem is that once it’s chosen, there’s no going back. There is no stopping. I suggested to my Narc that she could try shedding the defense of Narcissism, but I know now that was a futile, amusing suggestion.

    As this post explains, Narcs don’t consider themselves as broken. They can’t, even though they know they are (i.e. different). That makes healing impossible, and ineffective in their eyes. Sort of like “if it aint broke, don’t fix it” y’know? That’s funny to me.

    The punchline is, Narcissism stays when all else leaves. I thought that Narcissism had served its purpose in keeping my Narc alive after the horrific trauma she suffered, and that considering she had gladly survived, that perhaps she could start actually living life. Enjoying it. Loving herself, and others. Giving herself permission to exist without fear or malice. From my perspective, I thought that Narcissism was no longer useful, so she should stop choosing it (separately from it being a mental illness, as I believe Narcissism is also chosen behaviour). But it’s almost impossible to stop choosing something that is so damn addictive. That’s the trap.

    To the Narcs reading this, excuse me (or at least try to) if I’m a bit off the mark. I am not a Narcissist, after all. I just want to point out what I know because while think I could have achieved No Contact without borrowing my Narc’s mind-I don’t think I would have deeply understood why I absolutely needed to do so unless I had considered her perspective. Unless I had felt it, experienced it.

    And admittedly, the danger wasn’t in considering my Narc’s perspective, living her mind once I’d borrowed it; the danger was in discarding it once it had achieved its purpose and not letting it consume me to the point that my behaviour developed into a harmful pattern. I honestly cannot imagine functioning like this every single day of my life. It just isn’t sustainable. Moreover, being an instrument of pain appalls me. I don’t want to and can’t live that way.

    Then again, I am not a well-oiled, well-constructed, mean machine. Which is why I appreciate the candor of this post.

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    1. Living by Moonlight,
      Wow! That was beautifully written and so well explained. I never went that far with a narcissist though I have with an addict (who died this year). All I can say is from my experience with my six year relationship with what I would call the love of my life with someone who chose addiction over everything else when everything else was lost. Nothing left to choose and he always chose addiction. I love how you say that as it now makes so much more sense, when all else is gone and when nothing else is left he will choose narcissism. More and more like addiction and it makes complete sense. Thank you for sharing that, you’ve taught me something new today am I am grateful.

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    2. And all the abuse-tolerating codependent is looking for is love. Interesting that for all the bullshit that goes on, neither party ever finds it in this sick dyad. Probably because neither thinks he/she worthy of it and has knowingly picked the wrong source to continue not receiving it.

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    3. Beautiful LivingByMoonlight! How very true about their one flaw (or gift): hope. Their desire to finally find the one. The one who can make them whole… It is childlike in its simplicity.
      One narc of mine told me during discard that when he met me he was so excited, thinking I am the one. Hoping this was it. That he wouldn’t have to search anymore. He wanted to feel the ‘sparks’ that others talk about when they fall in love. Alas, I wasn’t it. Nor were the many many many before me. But that hope keeps them going forward. Never stopping to look back at the destruction and wasteland they created. Hope.

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    4. I ‘borrowed his mindset once’. I tricked him in to admitting to me that he is a predator. I saw how far he will go to denying the existence of another human being. And I felt this surge of power in tricking him. It was short lived but I thought, how addictive it could be. But I also felt this hardness in my chest that was why I seemed powerful. And I knew it was unreal. I was tricking myself. I gave it up. He called it a cat and mouse game. I said I learned it from him. I also dangle some bait once in front of him. It was this bait that I might help him. I got him to reach out and ask for help, only to go, “sorry, hahah, you are a loser, why would I help you?” Again, I was intrigued how I was able to get him where i wanted him. And I got some insight into how ‘hope’ was playing into this. Hope that they would finally find the person to love them. I sensed it. Thank you for articulating it.

      You know, when he was really working my head, I had this flash of that creature in the Tolkien series… I felt this imagery, this creature slinking around, wanting and so afraid to attach. I misunderstood the image as my own. Not realizing I was actually picking up his own severe attachment disorder. It helped me look towards my own issues from a Narc mother (As I am also coming to terms with) but it was so profound, I later realized it was HIM I was channeling. Not myself.

      When I finally started to turn was when I was able to tell him I don’t think he has any idea of what love is or how to love. He faked it, mimiced warmth and care, but actually love? to give himself to another, to share, to not always be provoking wars (that he accused me of waging all the time, I finally got that it was his behaviors, on purpose!), heck, to put his own children ahead of the corruption he wrought on his own soul…. he is incapable of something that drives every bit of him. It doesn’t matter how attractive someone is, or how they aren’t the right status, he will go through all of them, never, ever finding what he doesn’t realize he cannot feel because he has confused mimicry with the real body feelings of love. Not infatuation, the initial rush of new supply, but love, long lasting, care and affection for another human being.

      That is sort of how I have been able to finally walk away. He only had games. No love, not for me, not for anyone.

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      1. This is absolutely true, and you’ve expressed it so well. Right down to the heart of it. I’m glad I am not the only one who recognizes this. Thank you so much for sharing!

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      2. LivingByMoonlight

        I also think it is chosen. When the Narc finally admitted to me of his own freewill of having ignored me (ST) when we were young, an admission that was in direct contradiction to all the lies he used to con me into letting him get close to me, I looked back at both our ages when that first happened (14, 17) and told him that he chose it all. That I was there to witness to his choice to be a psychopath. I was one of his first serious victims. He used me to learn to turn off his own feelings in service of hurting another to glean cheap power. I told him I was one of the first ones he used to learn how to ‘build his portfilio’. He chose to turn agaisnt his own feelings (for me) than to follow his heart, what was still working then. I fully understand the survival part of why one is more predisposed, especially give one’s own family of origin dynamics. But I never, ever would have hurt him. I had loved him with all my little heart as much as I could have then. He chose to hurt. On purpose as he acidentally at last confessed to doing so, so blinded by his cold need to hurt me even more as if he already had again 30 years later. He revealed to me his choice. He created the circumstances of his own prison of life by luring, chewing up and discarding women. He inadvertently contributed to his own misery by never hanging on to anyone.

        It may be a well oil machine, but it depends on itself. Even though it dies without outside fuel, it does kill itself off slowly. It kills the life force. Its why so many people say they watch Narcs only grow meaner and uglier as all the mechanisms that feed itself break down. Like living on a diet of candy, eventually the body will fail. So it is with his soul and life force. If you touch him, there is NO energy in his body. He is full of venom and malice and rage and harsh energy but his physical body is entirely depleted and devoid of energy. No Ki. He even looks like a cadaver. Bony, skeletal. Or maybe that just his STDs… who knows!

        But he chose it.

        (I wrote it wrong above…he put the corruption and pursuit of his own life ahead of his kids, never raising them and spending all his time partying, whoring and looking for supply. )

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    5. This is a very powerful and helpful perspective. You would not be able to carry the mindset of a narcissist out over the long haul because it is not your inherent nature; having empathy.
      I read something interesting this weekend that as we would not ask someone to change or expect them to change if they were diagnosed with autism, the same goes for narcissism since it is a disorder.

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      1. A valid point Clarece, the differences are :-

        1. Those targeted by us are nearly always the type of people who are prone to think that people can make changes;
        2. The effect of the gold period cons people into thinking that it was real and therefore it is attainable again. Thus they believe they saw the ‘change’ once and thus it can be recovered;
        3. People fall into the trap that thinking we must know what we are doing and that it is wrong and thus there will be a moment of enlightenment so change can be effected. Of course the vast majority of our kind do not know what they are see nothing wrong in what they do.

        I agree with your proposition yet with narcissism, for the reasons advanced, it engenders a different reaction.

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      2. So then the question becomes if both parties are enlightened and aware of each other (Narc and the IP), is there a way to cultivate a workable dynamic since both have developed an attachment to each other. The IP has to accept their love could never be reciprocated the way the give. But you do feel a connection and are drawn to people and could also learn to accept certain things, like maybe at times strawberry ice cream may seem boring. But it’s always consistent.

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    1. Hi Alexis!
      My ex said to me once
      ” I took a chance on you”
      After learning everything here I don’t believe anything she did was a mistake or by chance. Everything she did was calculated and planned.
      I saw first hand how she put everyone through ‘tests’ and how they either failed or passed. Too bad I didn’t know it at the time.
      Hope you are doing well! ❤️️🍎

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      1. Karaoke night!!!!
        Where is Jaded?
        I liked singing along to your words HG while she was keeping track.

        You should give us narc version of some of the popular songs out there periodically. That way when the songs play on the radio I will think of you and not my ex.

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      2. You do know disco biscuits ARE biscuits and gravy! Possible tiny souls on the side. 🍞🍞🍞👼🏼👼🏼👼🏼

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      3. Snow,
        I found this too secret video. shared from spies, British spies because they are the best. They find all the good stuff:

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      4. All is well here lovely lady. I hope it is with you too.

        Everything they do is calculated. Absolutely everything. Which makes it impossible for us to compete in the long haul. Back then we couldn’t possibly have known we were being played.

        I’d be careful of HG’s disco biscuits I were you. E they’re not what you think they are xx

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      5. Glad to hear everything is well Alexis. 🍎❤️
        I honestly don’t know how I kept up with her. I do think some days I’m still recuperating from it all.
        Nothing at all is what it seems. Lol
        I’m sure the biscuits are full of future faking ingredients and made by something from his toolkit.

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      6. they’re exhausting aren’t they !!! Even the Somatic from many years ago who I was not emotionally attached to at all. I wanted fun, he was hot, and I knew he was a ‘bad boy’. He would want to see me so much. But even though I loved spending time with him. I would pick and choose because I found him bloody tiring and I’d need a proper power boost before hooking up.

        HG, the disco biscuits has prompted another question from me. I’ve never taken ecstacy, so I’m only basing this on other people’s experinces. But they describe it as a ‘love drug’, so when an N takes an E, do they feel the loooove ?

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      7. So you finally took E, Mr. Tudor? We had this convo a few months back and you said you never tried it but were contemplating. Then the drug coalition stopped by and told you to Say No to Drugs

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  5. What irony. The world is in fact “unfair and brutal” due to people like himself. And if he were paying any attention at all to his empathic victims, he would also recognize that the world is also loving and selfless at the very same time. Altruism, love, genuine kindness, and empathy are very real – he sees this and knows this from his victims. Both worlds exist in our world. But the Greater chooses to believe that the “unfair and brutal” one is all there is, and chooses to become a part of it, spreading the brokenness he has inside and multiplying the pain and suffering he knows all too well. And that’s a conscious choice. What a coward.

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    1. I disagree with the coward statement. Only because I believe narcissism is a defense mechanism. You don’t know any other option to deal with people. You just are that way. You have no identity so you take others. You have such a wall built around You that you don’t feel. Someone has to teach you how to trust. Teach you correct emotions and how they relate to feelings. You honestly don’t posess them because your parents don’t teach you correctly. Everything was conditional. So you “love” on conditions. I may be empathetic now, but I struggle with love and intimacy. It takes great courage to learn to trust another when our trusts were shredded from an early age. We were helpless and we never ever want to be in that position again. So we adopt a predatory mindset. Not cowardice but necessary for survival. I personally learned a different way to survive. HG could do the same if he so chooses. It takes time and effort to undo that coping skill. He has to measure the pros and cons. I respect his choice. He is anything but a coward and so was I.

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      1. I dig what you’re saying ABB. So what the heck happened to us codependents? We were made from the same cloth yet codependents are just waiting to pour all of their trust and love onto a narcissist.

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      2. Love as I am not codependent I can only speculate. My thoughts are this. I think it is an unhealthy form of empathy. The over empathic person tries to look for approval from a dependent individual, in this case a Narcissist who is dependent on fuel and tries to win that approval for themselves. It is ever elusive as the narcissist is addicted to the fuel. The empath becomes an enabler. They accept the unkind behavior of the narcissist because they believe they can support and correct it. They hold on to the idea that if they can just support enough, love enough, give enough then they will be able to change the narcissist. It could be that the codependent has really no identity also, so they become overly altruistic and seek approval of others. Thus they become hooked in with a dependent person. This is why you see codependents commonly linking themselves to say alcoholics or drug addicts or in this case the addictive personality exhibited by the narcissist and fuel dynamic. The codependents thinking revolves around the narcissist and not themselves. Why? Because they have no sense of self. They have a hole to fill that is filled from the outside instead of the inside just as the narcissist does.

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      3. I think it is cowardice. A mean, corrupt bully. Is a bully anything but a coward? Hiding behind hurting others on purpose just to raise themselves up? I am not interested in HOW they got there anymore to stick around. They are what they are, right now, in the present. I will do all I can to never fall into the empathy trap again with them… I have been deeply hurt by people, by my family on SOOO many levels and I never turned into a cowardly bully.

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      4. I’m sorry that you have been so hurt. My family hurt me too. They still hurt me. I have no contact with them because of this. However the level of abuse if you experienced makes you completely disassociate as a protection you would understand the concept of of a complete loss of control and never ever wanting to experience that again. We don’t have the concept of hurting you. We see it as trying to make ourselves in control. You get hurt as a by product of our behavior. We see that as your problem. I would think why don’t you just ignore the hurt and move on? Now I really do understand your feelings. I stopped the behavior. I realized that we make choices everyday. Our conscience has to be developed. It takes courage to face and relive the abuse as it is fear of being dead to have to endure that kind of pain. The relationships we had growing up were sado masochistic in nature. You can’t apply something you don’t know. We intentionally hurt before you can do it to us. That is fear driven behavior. We are waiting for you to turn treacherous. We grew up with that. My parents would continually act like they were going to be there for me and then go back on their word. I imitated that because I sincerely didn’t know there was another way. Until you are taught the correct way to interact and get past the idea of not being able to stay a leader, skilled and keep your personality intact without narcissism you are stuck using the only way you know how to deal.

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      5. It is such a nice gift having your presence here, because you are the bridge to both sides having lived them both and sharing that perspective.

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      6. Thank you for that. You sweetie pie. I really believe it is possible to change. Everyone can course correct. You just have to have the concepts taught. I have great affection for HG. I don’t personally know him, but I really wish I did. I hope he sees one day that he will be safe. That he realizes that he loses nothing by knocking down his construct, but gains so much more. In the meantime I care for him as he is. I respect what he chooses and I highly regard his work. That is all I can give him. That and expecting nothing in return. I know that people need to understand what he does and why. I wish more would not shoot the messenger as he sincerely does not experience feelings the way that others do. You cannot give what you don’t have. He is not to blame for that. His family members that abused him are. I wish ones that were abused by a Narcissist could understand that. He may be consciously aware of the games he plays but it is a matter of his survival or that of the victims. He chooses self as would most of us if we had to choose between life and death. That is what it felt like to me when I had to relive all the horrendous abuse I grew up with. I thought what good is it to rehash all the pain? How does that help me? Why don’t I just keep moving on like it didnt happen and never let it happen again by being a cold ruthless bitch? That only takes you so far. I realize now all the heartache I caused myself and others. I am still everything I was only in am no longer a mean malicious person. I love people. I love as best as I can. I give and feel happiness. I have people who I can really trust and that have no conditions about love. I hope everyone on this blog gets to experience that at least once. We all deserve it.

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      7. What were the answers given back by the doctors to the questions you asked?
        Does hearing ABB’s journey and transcendence into being able to start accepting unconditional love and willing to learn how to reciprocate it without experiencing any treacherous backlash appealing to you?

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      8. Essentially they regard it as progress that I now recognise why I made the choice I did and why I continue to act as I do. They feel such recognition is progress. They also understand my “slavish devotion” to the way that I operate and that their role is to assist me in removing those shackles so I understand firstly that I can operate in a different manner (i.e. I have the potential), then that I can choose to operate in a different manner and then that that different manner will enable me to be as I want to be without the collateral consequences for others and ongoing torment for me.

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      9. You do have such shining potential!!
        Since you don’t trust the doctors yet, I expect you think there will still be torment in line for you if you act a different way.

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      10. I just realized rereading your answer that the doctors call it your “slavish devotion”. For someone consumed with securing power, that seems to be a very fearful existence. Do the doctors think you live as though you’re still under MatriNarc’s thumb daily even though your life can be free from her now? Or are you a slave to the Creature?

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      11. Anna Belle Black

        Sorry, but I was profoundly abused by my family and people outside of my family. I was in my late 20s diagnosed with a dissociative disorder. A profound one.

        Oh I know abuse. Deeply, my entire life. I have been laughed at, ridiclued, abandoned by both parents, abused, mocked, neglected and scapegoated by narc mother. She turned my 2 siblings against me.

        But my empathy and compassion was never destroyed by all these people. I never actively sought out to hurt and lie to people like the Narc that brought me here. I often ran from people out of triggers and fear, but I was never consciously and with calculation hurting them as he was. He even admitted to ‘doing a number’ on people’s heads.

        But I always wanted out, a friend, to feel safe and loved. I never faked it or wore such a mask like him on his level. And I suspect I was hurt far more than him in life. I was a beacon for so many reasons for everyone to hurt me. I never repeatedly lured people into my life only to laughingly abuse the heck out of them as he did, over and over and over. I never ran a smear campaign so brutal, I drove a person out of the lives of dozens of people and forced out of town. I know deep humiliating rage at the hands of unfair and injust treatment but I would never do him what he did to me. At his age, after a lifetime of this, he is a bully and a coward…

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      12. Yes. He is a bully. He is abusive. I too dissociate from feelings. I can take myself emotionally away from any situation. I understand that I was abusive. I am not minimizing the behavior. I now look back and see that I was just as bad as an abuser as my family was. I do not think it was right. At the time I didn’t know any other way. I’m simply backing up HG. I think I was more of a mid range. I did have malicious intent. I did plot. Some of that comes from the sociopathic side. I did have a conscience, I just didn’t care. I would be more of the type to test out how much they could take and how many hoops they could jump through. I thought if they could keep up even when I changed the game, it meant they loved me.
        I understand why you picked an abusive partner. It was unconsciously what you knew. However, the part I think I am not conveying to you is that I honestly did not know any other way. I commend you for learning at such a young age to not be like your abusers. It just took me until I suffered a major car accident to get into psychological therapy for a head injury to find out that the personality disorder was there and why it was there. This was in my early twenties. I then again changed. I was extremely resistant at first and was haughty enough to believe I needed no fixing. I would play games with the therapist. I resisted the change because I thought I was fine. When things started to come out about abuse I quit. I was successful and had no reason to change. Then I had my son. I went back to therapy because I didn’t want him to have a bad parent. I learned to be unselfish. I swung too far the other way. Became overly empathic. I would engage narc men always, but now non abusive as an empath. I still suffered from sociopathic tendencies. But I played the narc game from the other side. We are really two sides of the same coin. We are just filling the emptiness in a different way. I’ve been on both sides of the coin. I now have empathy. I now have to balance the sociopathic side. I thankfully have an excellent therapist and a normal nice guy whom I have been with 15 years. I’m now working on love and intimacy. I do not know how to deeply love him, attach to him or be intimate in a loving manner. I only have that deep attachment and love with my son. That warm and fuzzy feeling and elatedness when I see him. It is healthy. I don’t cross any boundary, I support and advise him. I don’t interfere and let him be himself, not an extension of me. Now the problem is accepting that the way I love my son is the way my husband loves me and even deeper than that because we have an intimate relationship. I have homework from my therapist all the time about learning to love and how to show it, how to not disassociate and stay in the moment. And allow myself to accept that love and express it without fear of being manipulated, conned, abused etc. In other words trust that he will not let me down. He will not hurt me. The problem with sex being tied to abuse and an act of power stems from sexual abuse. The non intamacy I feel in the act is simply that, an act. Yes it feels good, but, I see it as controlling someone, not an expression of love. I tie no feeling to it. This is why I was promiscuous and felt nothing. I could kick a man out of my bed just after to show him he was nothing to me. I thought I fooled him into thinking I loved him. The jokes on him, I felt nothing. This is not normal to you. It is to many that were sexually abused. I agree it is cowardice to not fix yourself once you know that there is another way. But the person doesn’t usually know what other choice there is until someone tells them that there is one. Once that happens they have a decision to make. Either they live in denial or the work hard and humble themselves by accepting that there is a better way to live. First you take in knowledge. Then you let the knowledge mold your thinking and your conscience. Then you put your knowledge into action. Then you develop wisdom and choose to act wisely. You never lose your abilities. As a narcissist you think letting this horrid creature, which is the root of your abuse, be let out into the open it will consume you and you will shatter the construct you have built. People will see your vulnerability and seek to destroy you because you are weak. You must stay visibly in control and not allow that to happen. What you learn if you let the construct be taken apart is you really never had a construct. All the things you outwardly portrayed really was you all along. You were just imagining that people fell in love with the illusion of the construct you created. They weren’t. They actually did love you and would not try to destroy you. You just didn’t have enough trust and self identity coupled with insecurity to allow them to put you into the vulnerable position of giving your heart to them. So really it is a sad state of affairs to walk around your whole life without knowing the full potential of trust and love and acceptance without conditions. It is terrifying yet so rewarding to know that you can be even more successful in every area of life without having to maintain the tiring routine of maintaining a fake self. You do not lose anything by love. It really does conquer all.

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      13. Anna Belle Black

        At one point, you said you did have a conscience, you just didn’t care. So I think you knew better. You just didn’t know how to unravel the puzzle that was always there or what to replace it all with…?

        I do understand that feeling of being locked into behaviors where it seems there is no safe way out. Like you find yourself doing things that you wish you were not doing but some deep wall inside, some hardness, some gritty anger prevents you from doing anything differently? Like you are so determined to stay on your course, no matter how destructive, because if feels like life or death to ever change your mind? That the death grip you have on everything means death if you ever give in just once to someone else? The sheer depth of pride that you can turn off all your feelings and feel that you have total and utter control? The greatness of never, ever allowing a single person in? The feeling that if you just care one tiny bit, you are filled with such loathing for caring, you kill any feeling or memory of that? That to feel dead inside IS far greater than love because you did it to yourself and YOU control it, no one else?

        Something like that?

        I am still unraveling some things… I was the unfortunate victim of an accident that first let me to using dissociation to survive when I was extremely young. Many other extremely difficult and life changing experiences followed. I think I had one brief 6 month window when I was moving from one town to another and I elected to erase all memories of what my life was before. Although my memories did not fully return, the deeper emotional issues (which of course never existed lol (joke!)) remained and they eventually caught up with my in my 20’s.

        What I am puzzled about is would I have become so dissociated if I didn’t have a cold, heartless and selfish woman as a mother? How much did SHE teach me and model all that energy to never, ever let anyone in? I don’t completely have the answers about how much I learned from her, how much was medical trauma, how much was life trauma. But sometimes, I answer this question with a statement….. if it was just me, and my mother was capable of truly bonding, then I would not be where i am today, where I have cut all ties with her. SOMETHING warm would have survived even through my own adaptive dissociative disorder from the first early trauma and because I actually have a warmer relationship with my father and other people? If she were empathic, loved and was a warm person, wouldn’t see have found me help, protected me and defended me? The fact that none of those happened should tell me something of her own internal relationship to feelings, no?

        The last time I saw the N and it will be the last time forever even if I wanted to have stuck around, he went through this incredible what I call psychotic spin in front of me. I watched him dance through rage and anger and bitterness and abuse and shame and just this SOUP of age levels and unresolved stuff. At one point, I saw him ‘give up’. It was at night, sort of dark as we were outside. But I saw him pause. And his energy fell. And he stood there silently, looking like a confused, dazed, lost, incredibly lonely and vulnerable boy. I was worked up from all the other stuff he threw my way and was about to verbally attack him when I saw that. Something in me just stopped and I reached over and hugged him and held him. He held me back and in such a way, that I felt that was the only true emotion I ever felt from him. Emotion that said, please don’t go. Please don’t leave me. I am tired and alone.

        Much later, weeks later, I brought it up. And he said yes, that was what he was feeling after first denying. He heard that I meant never leave him foreever (that is taboo!) but I meant I just felt the general emotion from him of “no, just don’t leave me here” … exhausted little boy inside. I had one glimpse of this side …. and that was it… The rest of all his psychotic personas came back and I never heard from that little boy again.

        I erroneously thought that the little boy needed coaxing out…my experience of that was why I thought I would never let him down, and help him and so on. Have his back. What I didn’t see what he had already laid most of the ground work for me to chase, pursue, prove and obsess over him. This little bit did me in. I wonder if it was intentional, too?

        I will never know if it was a fraud, that little boy. Or if it was truly the soul trapped inside. The one he killed off a loooong time ago, using all those walls and all those labrynths to keep anyone from ever finding him.

        But that is the empath in me that hung around for more… the one who though he could change… That at his age, without therapy or support, that he could change, especially with me to help him. And that was my downfall….

        I also am learning other ways of being, of trusting good people. My child is a wonderful teacher. I am actually having to teach her to be LESS empathic! She can spot need and brokeness a mile away in people. So I am having to go to the opposite and teach her to put herself first, to not think so much of others, to be a balance that dance between self and other. Teaching her to not send out so many signals of her spirit…. cause I now know what is out there and how she might be targeted….

        Kind of ironic, isn’t it? Good conversation…

        Liked by 1 person

      14. Interesting read there Sarabella. When I made the statement that I had the conscience but didn’t care, I was referring to my being sociopathic. I really didnt care as the thought to care was never brought to the fore. As far as building walls and the like, yes, that would be a construct as you don’t have an internal feeling about anything, just rage, jealousy etc. And even as I write that I have to really think hard about what feelings were there at that time. It was rage because I wanted to get back at everyone, but only if I thought they were against me somehow. I felt jealous if they ignored me. I felt power or in control of them if they did what i wanted. As far as life or death …I compare it to that because of the idea that I would have rather been dead than be vulnerable. Nobody would ever catch me off guard. I did not feel like you do. The other emotions were non existent at the time. I didn’t consciously think of pride or loath caring. I just didn’t have it. It is blank space. I really only knew I had a conscience because I liked animals. I of course would not own one because I was not wasting my time on that. I did not like war. The Gulf War was impending at the time. I could not understand killing others to make peace. It would be a fleeting thought here and there, but dismissed very quickly. I had to spend years concentrating on learning. What are the array of emotions? How does a thought connect to the correct corresponding emotion. Who in my life showed me kindness or love in an unconditional way and how did those acts correspond to an emotion? Could I say out loud to someone what you said or did hurt me instead of lashing out? I had to look for good traits in everyone instead of a negative focus. So admitting first that you are messed up, putting the blame on the correct people and realising they had no emotions either or misused the ones they did have, is a good place to start. I will say again I still have a problem with love and intimacy and attachments. Example: My husband dies tomorrow. I feel sad, I cry, he’s gone, that’s it. Someone else will take his place or not and life keeps going. I’ll miss him. I may cry from time to time. But I cannot change it. My dog died in 2015. I loved that dog. I cried when he died. I buried him in my yard. That’s it gone. He does cross my mind and I feel sad. I may cry about it. But I have to let the feeling in and know now that it is okay to feel like that. Nobody is going to say stop it, it’s a dog and you are weak or a baby for crying. I am allowed to feel what I want, whenever I want. I was denied feelings. I was disassociating when I was sexually abused. I was absent emotionally. I got it back. I recovered the emotions. They were in there. I will say each of us are individually unique. My perspective may not be the same as HG. However, I did gain empathy. I don’t practice what I used to do. I don’t want to. I could revert back to turning off the emotion. I try not to when I feel that I am. I faced my problems head on and worked very hard to get here. I was brave. I fought the creature and won. A coward runs from the battle. I ran to the battle with everything I had.

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    2. Anna Belle Black

      I guess I was stuck on how one can have a conscience if someone can’t care. Doesn’t having a conscious imply some ability to care? Conscience as related to the ‘feeling’ of right/wrong versus mentally knowing right from wrong and faking behaviors to fit in.

      I have questions about my own my own life that I know I might never answer as I never had any outsiders who witnessed my family as we moved so much before my family fell completely apart. I know that what led me down the path of my DID was a gradual process of one thing that triggered it and then just one more thing piling on top of the other. I was told by my mother not long ago that I was pretty much to blame for everything in my family. That I manipulated everyone and everyone danced around me. The great irony is that she got my two siblings to say the same words and in the same way, so I know that this was likely not what they always felt but were led to feel and someone, likely her, was the primary person spreading this.

      But I ask, how can a clearly wounded child have that much power? Who was the adult in that relationship? Surely the mother was supposed to have been? But from what I saw of her writing last summer, she has about zero ability to admit her deeply damaging role in the lives of her kids. So if I was so manipulative, maybe I was in a dance for control and power against someone who didn’t give a F and who was using power in a very awful way over a child and I was just trying to survive? I know that eventually I did lose all touch with my feelings, who I thought I was and more. I was ‘adapting’ so much to so many circumstances (long story) that in the end, I had lost all sense of identity. My early therapy did involve re parenting the inner child, teaching myself to cry. It was the most alien thing in the world to me.

      Where I stopped in my survival mechanisms was I did not actively set people up and actively manipulate them and elected to be hurtful and deceptive on purpose. (Although, I did borrow what I was gleaning from the Narc and set him up a few times. It was useful but so much energy.)

      Although, to be honest, I have wondered if it was that one thing in my life that prevented me from going down that path. It was both the one thing that first broke me, but in the end, might have saved me from going into a full on PD. My brother did not fare so well as he did develop one. My sister remains the goldenchild and bully, all in one. So I think, that one thing was also what led me to being scapegoated which means I was also the most capable of feeling what was going on in our family even if I had shut down. That ‘one thing’ is also the one thing that the Narc that sent me on this path also used to lure me in, manipulate and control me. When he was losing control or needed to get me to stop something, he would just trot out that issue like a weapon. When all else would fail, he would resort to the lowest of low behaviors with what I now understand was totally premeditated. As I now fully understand after reading alot of HGs blog entries, and a few of his books. He describes it so well, I have no doubt now that so much was intentional. Even down to his fake indignant rage attacks.

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  6. I have have likened my life to a chess game as well. I must be vigilant and attuned to anything that would lead him to “manufacture a crisis”. When something does occur that provide the opportunity for this action, i try first to retreat and protect. If that is not possible, something happens. I had likened my behavior to the “queens sacrifice”…turning off my most important qualities (love, patience, acceptance) to gain strategic advantage. Knowing him well, I know exactly what to say to cut to the core with no emotion or with cold anger. (I wonder if this behavior is the supernova HG discussed). However, once the smoke clears, within my soul, I feel great shame for many of the things I have said.

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    1. Never, I know that feeling of cold anger and empathy that is switched off. It is a bizzare feeling. But I kind of like it. Makes me to feel free to act on my anger and powerful. I experienced this after being hurt deeply (traumatized) few times in my life. The lack of empathy turns me into leathal weapon. I can hurt the enemy deeply without the remorse. This is a temporary state as I ultimately I have to process the feelings later. But with my narc, I do not feel any remorse after using all his insecurities against him. Not after what he has done to me. He did everything in a preplanned manner. He deserved to get a taste his own bitter medicine.

      Liked by 2 people

    1. The fury is always churning away inside us, a self-defence mechanism as a consequence of how we regard the world as against us. If you will, it is generic in nature. The malice is specific to a person and their treacherous transgressions.

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  7. I can’t imagine living life feeling this way. I found a note several years ago written by a teen N in training. It said, “I can control people with my mind. I can make people do what I want them to do.” She’s a young adult now and wicked smart. I avoid her knowing she’s dangerous. Are all malignant N’s highly intelligent?

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  8. HG,
    Could you give an example of your behavior you showed and its consequences while in a rare
    chaos mode? I’m really curious and it will show all the levels that a greater can also be physically ferocious. I know you do not want to do this because you see it as beneath you. I respect that about greaters, bc it is. And I think sometimes your rare bouts of brute ferocity is lost on some as you are clearly intelligent, charming and mentally lethal…hupnotic qualities that make women swoon. No doubt I’d. be one, but you trained me well. An example would be enlightning I think. Greatful if you do and I get it if you don’t. Gracias!

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      1. Would you say your Dec. 15th incident in the club happened with you feeling frenzied or chaotic that day?
        Have any of your therapy sessions brought this on within a day or two?

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      1. Docto Sr. Tudor:
        ¿Cómo está usted?
        No lo entiendo.
        Veamos. Narcisistas y psicópatas. Ambos desdeñan, desprecian profundamente a los demás. Sin embargo, bajo mi punto de vista existe una diferencia que sitúa al uno del otro en las antípodas. Un narcisista requiere desesperadamente interactuar con otros, hasta tal punto que ello constituye una condición sine qua non para su supervivencia (psicológica, al menos). No así un psicópata. Él no necesita absolutamente a nadie, siempre ha estado solo, siempre lo estará. La soledad más abismal es su hábitat natural.
        Entonces: ¿No son ambas “características” a todas luces incompatibles, irreconciliables en una misma persona? ¿No se produce aquí una contradicción de base? ¿Cómo puede ser?
        Gracias.

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  9. Several months back, I had asked if by going to therapy and with the writing of your blogs and books it had tempered the need for negative fuel and you replied back that it had slowed you down a bit.
    I’m wondering if that is still the case or with recently your GF had gone through a devalue cycle before the holiday respite and the Dec 15th incident, if you are full throttle doling out as much malice in your personal life as needing positive fuel?

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      1. The doctors must view that as progress. Do you? Or do you view it more along the lines of just making different decisions based on growing awareness?

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  10. If the Greater is so deliberate, has such self control and the ability to control others, plots and plans and has an awareness of what they are doing and causing etc. then why can’t they control the type of fuel they need to fill the void? Would it be fair to say because they are typically so intelligent and gifted, they have a heightened ability and heightened control over the areas mentioned above as to over compensate their lack of ability to acquire mostly positive fuel?

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  11. Good evening Love!!!!
    That was hilarious. 😂
    Never heard of them.
    Thank you for the birthday wishes.
    Eleven days to go.
    When is yours?

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    1. You’re an Aquarius, Snow! I’m a Scorpio. My friends and I thought we were super cool listening to Erasure, the Ramones, and Pink Floyd in the 6th grade. Our music choice was sophisticated because of their older siblings 😎

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      1. No wonder you are sooo passionate Love!

        I was laughing when HG brought up Abba and you just brought up the Ramones and others. My ex was born in 1989, the year I graduated from high school. She would not know any of these. That made me smile.

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      2. Awww Snow, thank you for thinking I’m passionate! I’m crazy too … Lol another Scorpio/codependent trait.
        Your ex like every other narc will like any music you like. Tell her you have an eclectic taste, and sure enough she will play Louis Armstrong, Pat Benatar, and Tim McGraw all in one night.

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      3. I am crazy right along with you Love!!!
        She was soooo good at her music selection.
        She covered all genres and was sure to sing to me. Good move by her because after things ended I heard one of her songs on the radio no matter what station I landed on.
        Listening to the radio has gotten better with time but a few songs I still have to change immediately.

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      4. Hi Love,
        I live right in the middle of her job and where she lives. I am always on the lookout for her car on the road or in parking lots.

        I have only received messages through social media. Thank goodness she hasn’t called or texted. It has given me time to gather some strength. I would have given in at the beginning.

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  12. The Greater Narcissist does not speak without first considering how effective those words are. Are they to be used to elevate or denigrate? Praise or punishment? Elated or erode.

    Is there anything in between the two selections HG? I can think of many.

    I am puzzled with something I have been meaning to ask HG.

    Would you consider your MatrinNarc a lesser, midranger or Elite?

    Dependent on which one, why is it that you want revenge on her, when you do have a choice. You say you are gifted with your exceptional elite narcissism, was she gifted also? Are you looking to be bigger and better at it than her? Must everything be a competition?

    If you consider that it has harmed you in some way, would you not be doing everything you can, to be so unlike her?

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    1. Certain combinations could marry. They may stay married but the dynamic would not be that of a conventional marriage. One would manipulate the other into carrying out his or her machinations and both would gain from such an arrangement. This will be covered in further instalments of When Narcs Collide.

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  13. I’m watching a television series on people in prison. These people look to possess narcissistic tendencies – I would go so far as to say they are full-blown narcissists. In their interviews, they have complete awareness of using other people for affection, punishing anyone who goes against them and a lack of remorse. I’m not speaking of the general population, only the people interviewed. It’s fascinating to watch them treat others as appliances, transactions, placeholders, etc. with no remorse.

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  14. Hola Elena!
    No sé si estás en este blog todavia..pero encontré un comentario tuyo en español😀fechado el 17 de enero. Despertó mi curiosidad un comentario tuyo acerca de la diferencia entre un narcisista y un psicópata.Dices lo siguiente:
    “Un narcisista requiere desesperadamente interactuar con otros, hasta tal punto que ello constituye una condición sine qua non para su supervivencia (psicológica, al menos). No así un psicópata. Él no necesita absolutamente a nadie, siempre ha estado solo, siempre lo estará. La soledad más abismal es su hábitat natural.”

    Mi pregunta es: ¿Por qué estipulas que un psicópata no necesita a nadie? En qué basas este argumento?
    Muchas gracias

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  15. You do know that you’re taking all of your anger towards your original caregivers, and their rejection of you, out on those around you? All because the primary belief of the N is that they will at some point be abandoned anyway, so they may as well just screw it up and push everyone away.

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