Why Are The Arguments Never Resolved?

WHY ARE THEARGUMENTSNEVER RESOLVED?

Disputes between people always arise. You might label it a debate, a discussion, a reasoned exchange of views, an argument, a fight or a blazing row. That label depends very much on the participants in the exchange.

When one of the participants is one of us, a narcissist, it always seems to be the case that it is never resolved, at least, not to your (the non-narcissist’s) satisfaction.

Let’s start however with a dispute between two people who are not narcissists. Person A states that person B owes him £ 50 000. Person B denies that he owes anything. If they cannot resolve it between themselves, they will have to resort to other means to achieve an outcome, which would invariably mean going to court with the attendant cost in time and money. The dispute is however capable of resolution because of the mind sets of the two participants.

Person A’s mindset is – “I would prefer £ 50 000 but I recognise that in order to reach a resolution I will have to accept a lesser sum. So long as this lesser sum is within a certain range, the problem will be solved.”

Person B’s mindset is – “I would prefer to pay nothing but I recognise that in order to reach resolution I will have to pay something. So long as this something is within a certain range, the problem will be solved.”

You can see from this that there is potential for the parties’ mindsets to align. Neither will be out and out happy but the dispute will be resolved and they can get on with other matters. If they agree at £ 30 000 Person A has made a recovery which is less than he desired but more than nothing. Person B has made a payment which is more than he desired but less than everything. The two people have mindsets which can and do align and thus there is resolution.

This non-narcissistic example demonstrates precisely why there is never any resolution (or at least it seems that way to you as the empathic victim) when engaging with our kind. The reason is that there is no alignment of interests.

Take for instance a situation between narcissist and victim. The victim does not know that they are in a romantic entanglement with the narcissist. The victim is an Intimate Partner Primary Source and the narcissist is a Mid-Range Narcissist. The two attended an event in the afternoon. The narcissist felt ignored by the IPPS and this ignited his fury and now the narcissist, in order to provoke and gain fuel has accused the victim of flirting with a member of the opposite sex. The victim knows that she did not do so and is upset by this accusation as well as bewildered. An argument about this ensues.

What is the victim’s mindset?

  1. As a truth seeker establish the truth that she did not flirt with anybody and the narcissist accepts she did not.
  2. The narcissist apologises for the false accusation.

What is the narcissist’s mindset?

  1. Gain fuel;
  2. Assert and maintain superiority over the victim

Both parties have entirely different aims.

Can the victim’s requirements be fulfilled by the narcissist?

The narcissist will not admit that the accusation was a lie because issuing the lie is causing the victim to be upset, to be angry and thus is providing fuel. Accordingly, the narcissist will maintain the lie in order to preserve the supply of fuel.

The narcissist will not apologise because that is ceding superiority to the victim by admitting that the narcissist is wrong. It will also bring an end to the victim’s hurt/upset/anger and thus the fuel ends.

There is nothing for the narcissist to gain in fulfilling what the victim wants.

Can the narcissist’s requirements be met by the victim?

Yes, but not in an intentional way by the victim. Owing to the fact that victims do not know what they are dealing with, that they do not know they are engaging with one of our kind, that they do not understand the concept of fuel or that we have a different perspective to them, the victim cannot decide to keep giving fuel nor can she decide to give superiority to the narcissist.

Instead, she remains bound by her own mindset and desires which are as a consequence of her perspective. She sees this as the ONLY outcome which is right, because from her perspective she did not flirt, therefore she cannot understand why the narcissist cannot accept that this is the case. She cannot understand why he will not apologise when he is wrong. She does not know that he needs to keep extracting fuel from her. She does not know that he needs to assert and maintain superiority over her.

Accordingly, she keeps trying to get the narcissist to see her perspective and to achieve the apology. This will not happen. She does not achieve the resolution she wants. Moreover, she is bewildered as to why the narcissist cannot achieve this resolution when it seems so obvious (to her) that she is right and he is wrong.

The resolution will not occur on her terms because they are not aligned with what the narcissist wants. Instead, the resolution will only occur when the narcissist is satisfied with the fuel received (thus the wounding has been healed and the ignited fury of the narcissist abates) and that his perception of superiority has been attained. He then halts the argument by walking away, changing topic or even completely perplexing the victim by suggesting going out for dinner together. This rapid switch from argument to suggesting something pleasant, when (from the victim’s perspective) there has been no resolution leaves the victim puzzled and open-mouthed at this sudden switching.

From the narcissist’s perspective it is entirely logical. He has gained fuel and healed the wound, thus the ignited fury abates so he has no need to continue the provocation in the argument. He feels he has asserted his fury because the victim is upset, looks dismayed or dejected. He has achieved his aims which the victim (unintentionally) has fulfilled. He thus ends the argument. The victim is puzzled because from her perspective nothing has been resolved. If she presses on, she is likely to provide Challenge Fuel ( seeFuel, Fight or Flight ) and thus the narcissist will respond to this by deflecting, denying, projecting and a whole host of other manipulations.

Accordingly, whenever a victim argues with our kind, the victim never feels like there is any resolution because their aims are never fulfilled. Even when the narcissist’s aims are achieved and he halts the manipulation, the victim still understandably believing the matter to be unresolved, keeps going. This causes the narcissist to respond to the challenge and then the narcissist sees the victim as maintaining an argument unnecessarily.

It is only when the victim understands that they are engaging with a narcissist and that we adopt an entirely different perspective, which alters the aims we seek from the argument, that the victim can achieve an alternative outcome. Armed with this knowledge, the victim can either:-

  1. State their case once so they know they have, offer no reaction and withdraw;
  2. State their case once, offer a positive reaction to fuel the narcissist whilst avoiding feeling dismayed and hurt in trying to achieve an outcome they cannot ever achieve; or
  3. Withdraw, preferring not to engage and save themselves the aggravation of being subjected to repeated manipulation because of the different agendas of victim and narcissist.

Once you become empowered with this understanding of why you never reach resolution with us, you will approach such entanglements in a completely different and edifying manner.

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74 thoughts on “Why Are The Arguments Never Resolved?”

  1. The way I behave with him is totally different now because I know how he works. I’m getting there… while before I would get upset, now just ignore and walk away. He seems to be trying to be around me more now. He seems confused and looks as though he is observing my change in behaviour and trying to learn about me all over again.

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    1. Look out…Once he understands or gets bored he will start pushing the envelope. They do not respect boundaries so get ready for some serious boundry testing. They also doggedly push for that fuel. They know no limits. Prepare for battle…It is coming my dear. BTDT. This is exactly what started the downward spiral of our relationship…And it spiraled to hell quick. The unmasking and machinations are ugly and heart wrenching. Protect yourself and know when to say when…. I understand the desire to dance with the devil because he can be so intoxicating….But sometimes beautiful things end. Don’t hesitate to step away when the beauty is gone. If you fail to do so it will be at your own peril. I am a changed woman due to staying too long. Be warned that all those emotions that you are stuffing down to deal with his Highness do not go away. They will have their day in the sun, no matter how well you think they have them bottled. When mine came out they came out with a vengeance. They are still pouring out of me…But I will never give him another ounce of fuel. He doesn’t deserve it. Hopefully you will learn your lesson sooner than I did….

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      1. I know.., that’s why I asked HG for a consultation in order to try and establish what can happen, how will he behave towards me after a while. I don’t know what is going to happen to be honest. It’s not so much about predicting how he will behave but how I may react in a given situation. I tend to take revenge unconsciously I’ve I am pushed to my limits. That’s not something that goes down well with them, though …that’s the problem.

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    1. Strangely, all this knowledge still doesn’t eraset he UGH feeling in my stomach. It does explain how I struggled for months with the UGH feeling and sadly after 6 months reached out to him. He responded immediately but immediately started the argument that he had done nothing wrong. I was too upset with grief to respond but a month later, my anger begane. Did nothing wrong? I sent a message and he said that we are good (cause HE was) and that we can talk, vent, share, etc but if I can’t not talk about what had happened, it’s best we not talk. All words that begane another round. This was before I found this site. Even though I knew I was dealing with a narcissist and had been on healing forums and reading, there was still something I just wasn’t getting. It wasn’t until I started to really read here that I really grasp that he was deliberately provoking a fight. Of course he knew that would upset me. And when he did that, I started of course to spin like mad and thus, kept myself busy fighting invisible dragons and all along, he just walked away, content he had left me fighthing an invisible fight with someone who wasn’t there anymore only I was so sucker punched again, that I felt like I was still fighthing with him. But he was done. The ugh feeling of never any resolution with narcs is awful.

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      1. I think it helps to remember that we are the ones needed in this set up, for their plans to work – so we should stop feeling worthless. Also, they were made this way due to an unfortunate series of events, which tells us they must’ve been sensitive to their outer world to become desensitised. We are essentially all in the same life boat here, just on different levels. I think the extent that they’re being portrayed (as in evil, forgetful, non-caring) is a little far-fetched too. There’s no way someone who spent that much time and energy investing in someone can simply ‘forget’ you where you disappear off the face of the earth. You must come up in their mind, it’s just they fear abandonment and act childishly about it. It’s akin to being in a relationship with a child. I believe they just mature and find better ways to deal with people as they get older so they can achieve more fuel effectively.

        No feeling is a life sentence. With time we we adjust to the change and be stronger for it.

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      2. I was thinking more about your post and the fact that we still have the arguments in our heads long after they’ve checked out. I still have them running around in my mind months even years later. They do the most atrocious evil things to you and refuse to acknowledge any of it …it’s the most wicked torture I’ve ever been through.

        The how can you NOT f&cking understand what I’m saying to you Mister ???!!!!.. this is what you did this is what happened here it is in black and white ….!!!!

        It’s futile and infuriating…😩😩 I agree the ugh feeling sucks

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  2. The only problem I have with you is why didn’t you publicize this earlier? I’m serious. It would have saved me these traumatic experiences. Other than that: carry on, please.

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  3. Exact scenario.
    And it was challenge fuel I ended up giving.
    Thanks to you HG its option 3+ for me…
    Because Im gone and now I don’t engage at all.

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  4. I agree with regard to stating your case once and disengaging. This should work, if one can keep one’s own anger under control.

    What would a positive reaction look like in this case? Saying sorry for something you did NOT do? That’s not an option.

    Withdrawal is a good strategy, but it would just prolong the situation as he would not let it go without having attempted to heal his wound (= getting a reaction from you).

    The real problem here is his pain. So, I would suggest to cut through all of the above, and ask him: “what did I say or do which you perceived as wounding?”. And perhaps offer to work it out in peace.

    Is that delusional thinking on my part? For him to be honest enough to admit what irked him, and for me to be able to meet him halfway by offering understanding? Not apologising if you did not do anything wrong. Not necessarily trying to avoid whatever sparked his rage, as you could end up walking on egg shells, but acknowledging his hurt. The validation he receives this way would quell the rage, wouldn’t it?

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  5. I recognize the situation and the patterns fully.

    Still I am certain that my narcissist think that the lie is truth; that I did flirt with this other woman. It is a false reality. Desperate, dramatic and pathetic attempts to cool and decrease the wound. Repeat every tactic that seem to have worked in the past, trying to come up with something new to avoid boredom which is dangerous in itself. Trying to keep to the truth even if I am ordered to apologise for something I have not done. I will fail and apologise. It does not end there. Then it is the whole second chapter of “why did you do it”. Then there is a shift to lure me to take back the apology and restate that I did not do it. Then there is the accusation: “you are a pathological liar”. That I can not be trusted. “What version is the truth now”?

    I know that I did not flirt with that other woman. There are times I was not even aware of the existence of that other woman. In any case I am left with the feeling that although there was no ground for the accusation I should have done something differently. Somehow it is still my fault. Yes I feel that way. I understand what you write and still I carry the burden of guilt for something I did not do. Accumulated to a number of thousands of such instances.

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      1. Hello Angelic

        The patterns are the same. (I have 31 years of experience now, same woman all the time). I understood that something was wrong all the time; found out what narcissism really is only less than a year ago.

        The narcissist classifications that Mr HG Tudor makes are more important than female or male.

        I would say that in general the most important differences are:
        – The gender roles in society does affect the dynamics.
        – The menstrual cycle combined with narcissism complicates and multiplies matters even worse. PMS + narcissism is hell on earth.
        – Menopause + narcissism is traumatic. One more dimension of bewilderment.

        A story from a few months ago:
        She says: You never come up with pleasant surprises. That is not true at all, but anyway. I booked a luxury hotel (not directly, then it would not count as surprise) in a certain city; a very good deal. At first she were happy with that, but… Then she went to find a better alternative and said right out: “I must win”. Looking at all booking sites etc she gave up after three hours; she really could not find a better alternative. Furiously she shouted: “now you forced me to waste three hours of my time and totally exhaust me, why did you do that?” Slammed door to bedroom without goodnight.

        Well this time at least she was fair enough to include both the the price and same city as a relevant parameters when judging alternatives.

        The three posts about “VICTIM OR VOLUNTEER” by Mr Tudor are very interesting. I am without doubt a volunteer after 31 years. It would be pathetic to claim that I am only a victim. I had no reason at any point to maintain that there was no choice. Still even after all the learning here and elsewhere I can not escape the negative patterns. Provocations, guilt induction and all the various techniques will drive me to be the worst of myself. After that I can not claim I am only a good person. The balance of responsibility is kept tilted.

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      2. What makes me stay: charm, intelligence, beauty and really happy moments when everything is at its best. Also some kind of obligation to take care of her. I am the only one (almost) capable of that. Yes it is insane. I don’t want a boring life, but it is always too much. At worst it is malignant. I have been in surgery for beaten up ear. When I came home I got beaten on the same ear again before 12 hour passed.

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      3. Yikes. Is terrifying I had 4 kids with mine and with everyone I had this instinctive feeling inside of me that she could not take care of me and I just tried to get through that I stayed at the hospital for as long as I could before I came home. Cuz I knew deep down I could not trust him

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    1. Hi Neurocolls I firmly believe that narcs do not care one way or other about what it is they’re accusing you of. I don’t think they care whether you’re guilty or not and probably don’t give the actual subject much thought. Eg. Your flirting, cheating whatever it is …They have one goal – incite a reaction, pick a fight, throw you off your game, piss you off – mess with you and punish you. Think about it this way too – these trantrums stem from her feelings of inadequacy, her fears, low self worth … they have nothing to do with you unless you’re really up to something although I doubt you are 🙂 you can do nothing to prevent her tirades from happening you know that from experience I’m sure. She could be bored as well just looking for some drama fuel like you said .
      I’d just stay out of her way till she cooled off.
      Then just steer clear of the subject entirely do not bring it up.

      S

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  6. Thank you for the explanation. This argument cycle was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. He maintained for YEARS that I was cheating without a shred of proof. Clearly, I was not crazy but if I stayed with him I would have become crazy. He kept telling me to just admit it so we could move forward. I am so glad to be out of the insanity

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  7. When I read these things, I sometimes wish I had enough coldness inside of me to reach out to him (I am sure if I wait long enough, he will reply), and start a massive sweet positive fuel campaign. And get him hooked again and then do something devastating to him. Only, he would know my positive fuel would be false and not genuine. right? He would know I don’t feel resolved, he would feel it. I can only dream. Otherwise, I stated as much as I could in my by letter in my efforts for options 2 and 3 and must continue with option 3.

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      1. Libertygal1776 do you mean you intend on serving revenge by following HG’s above advice (if so great!) or something else ??….. because as much as blowing his world up with revenge sounds and would probably feel damn good ??? I hope you mean by ignoring him …never ever forget for your own safety and I’m sure you know this by now but they will eat a sandwich and watch you drown … which my N literally did.!! xo S💗

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      2. liberty, I am realizing as time has gone on, that the depth of pain that translated into wanting revenge has really faded. This is the ‘dangerous’ part for me and I think maybe many in this cycle. When the anger and wanting revenge was alive, I was almost in a better place. When those negative feelings faded, it allowed the far more confusing feelings to reemerge… you know, all those feelings of hope, love, sadness, disappointment, still anger but its not the dominant feeling, feeling abandoned, and grief. This is the stage I am at again and this is one I can’t respond to where he is concerned, ever again. This is one of the openings I bet HG is well trained to look for in someone. That moment when your fight goes out and attention turns back towards them in that seeking way? Right HG?

        I just wish when I was raging in wanting revenge, I had delivered it the way some other poster did… total 100% cutoff. I just didn’t know….

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      3. I truly believe that vengeance is the Lord’s. Because based on the creativity that I see in him already I believe that his Vengeance will be far greater than anything you could possibly dream up. That’s why it’s best for our souls to just forgive and move on

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  8. What if a potential intimate primary source doesn’t quite dish the fuel as good as a dirty little secret *once* did (before her discard)? I know they always come back, because fuel is fuel, but if that REALLY good intimate source has gone no contact for quite some time, does the N ever get angry or wish it was how it used to be, secretively? Or will he not being this to the surface and regard it as their loss and keep searching?

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    1. If you mean that the quantity delivered by the gone DLS was higher than that being received by the Candidate IPSS, then the N may consider hoovering the DLS (subject to trigger and criteria being met) or may decide to look for an additional Candidate IPSS (and shelf the current Candidate IPSS) to find someone superior.

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  9. So after defending myself in countless illogical arguments and attempting repeatedly to have resoloution in our recurring issues the last Ex Narc would usually say “I love you, I don’t want to argue” or “why do you always argue with me?” when he started all these ridiculous fights! I tried every which way to make myself heard or defend myself. It was beyond exasperating. What a waste of effort all that was!

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  10. One time I came home from church and my narc ex husband said some guy came by the house on his motorcycle while I was gone and knocked on the door and asked him if I was home. So narchead wanted me to tell him who the guy was. I said I don’t know, didn’t you get his name? He said no but still wanted to know who the biker was. So I said how the hell am I supposed to know who it is if you didn’t even ask who he was while he was standing right in front of you? So this stupid argument went around and around and around and finally I just walked off because I just kept thinking this is stupid. In the early days of our marriage I would of sobbed and swore on a stack of bibles that I had no idea and begged him to believe me. But after 18 years with this manipulative asshat, I was just plain wore out defending myself all the time, no more tears, just aggravation. Now that I’ve read this I realize this stupid moron was probably spouting just a bunch of made-up b*******, and the joke was on me. What a waste of energy. He is one very uncreative midrange chickenshit douchenozzle. That new appliance can have him. I should send her a sympathy card. In the meantime, I now actually have a couple of guys with bikes to ride with on sunny Texas days. Yiihaaww!

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  11. Mr T does the narcissist know that she is telling the truth in this case but refuse to acknowledges it or does he really believe she flirted?

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    1. This is the one that really gets to me. Do they know? When the narc wrote me a letter claiming that someone he had been flirting with online for 7 months, who is friends with at least 8 people I know or more, who has a whole lot of people who publicly call her by her name, wrote me a letter telling me that this person was fictional, made up, doesn’t exist and when I confronted him again and he can’t tell me “who she is”, he said that no one I know would know her, I was on the verge of losing it. That is when I reached out to a mutual friend and that is whithin minutes I was told he is toxic, abusive, manipulative, has a Jekyll and Hyde personality, and more. And that he IS a lie.

      But did he actually believe the shit he was writing? I mean he had to sit there and type out a paragraphed email and tell me this elaborate story that was bunked within hours by me. Did he really, believe it? And I told him he was a liar and lied about so much and he thinks nothing is wrong with him? And what ever was the point? What was he trying to accomplish by that? Create mystery and intrigue? Why deflect that way?

      My brother became a pathological liar. I swear it’s the outcome of some horrible abuse by parents that people get this way. Narc parents produce pathological liars? Sort of like the series Bates? Where the lies in the family get so bad, the personalities split and the lies get entrenched in some insane psychosis?

      Did he believe his lies when he wrote that another person didn’t even exist as a person which was easy to debunk? Freaking crazy. This wasn’t even a lie of the moment, caught off guard, a cover lie. This was a crafted email. And he had the nerve to call me mentally ill.

      Thanks for letting me write this as this evoked my anger and I need it again right now.

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      1. Of course, he knows that he is lying. He knows you well enough to know how to push your buttons, and will say or do anything to get a reaction from you, feeling *powerful* doing so!

        Just imagine how much of a failure he will feel if you do not react at all. That’s the best punishment you can dish out.

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      2. Matilda, I still can’t wrap my head around caring so little for one’s own honor and integrity that such lies are worth it for some scraps of power. I can read it and read it to hear its on purpose and I stil can’t fathom not caring at all for one’s own internal sense of integrity to lie like that. I mean, there has to just be no one home anymore to be living like that. ?

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      3. “I mean, there has to just be no one home anymore to be living like that. ?”

        That made me giggle, Sarabella! 😀 … noone home, indeed… I guess he had a fuel crisis when he sat down to write this BS!! Any fuel would do: beggars can’t be choosers 😀

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      4. I have told him so many things it is not funny. Not sure if I was ever fully discarded. Maybe at last now. Not going to bother finding out any more. I am done with the ugly fights that never resolve.

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      5. Sarabella
        In the beginning of devaluation ( i didn’ t know) i caught him acting weird.. he was quickly changing page while on my laptop…
        after awhile i discovered he was writing messages to one of my FB friends .. i asked her to please send me the conversation, and the shock!!! Althought there was nothing
        obviously ” wrong” with it..
        but it was much worse, all lies about himself!!! I printed the conversation and hanged it on the wall
        (sometimes he stayed at my house ) his reaction was sort of neutral… and definetly not remorse whatsoever or anything.. he was just mad with me very mad for having done that..
        at that time i was making fun at him for the whole flattering saga.
        I think he gotten the point .
        However 2 months later with another woman on FB.. he actually got infatuated with her.. she sent me the conversation .. and my God the shock about the lies he made up about himself. !!!!! . when i confronted him after that it was RAGE.
        I was totally devasted.. he threathened me to torture me and kill me and that i had spoilt his potential happiness! I stayed away.. but here and there he would sent me messages that he loved me and miss me etc..
        fortunatelly that woman on facebook came to know about us.. we started to write to each other.
        he was outraged when he found out and accused me to have smeared him to her!!!! Too long story.
        Anyway.. he wants me back now.. . but i had 2 years of hell.. it has destroying everything beautiful.
        Even now he is still hoovering me with love declarations etc…
        but nothing could be the same.. Although i see him infrequently..
        I mean the first 8 years were of golden period…although there were many weird things that i could see… i was just hoping that everything would get sorted…
        until he actually started the verbal aggressive abuse..
        that pushed me away .. i actually wonder if at the same time he was having another newer Secondary source.. i was already a secondary because he still lives with his parents, i am pretty sure he had… i was shelves i think…
        but after 2 years i think she must have rebelled or something hapoened because he is back to hoovering me intensely now.. trying to get me back totally..
        I am amused really now, knowing now who he is.. and the facade etc.
        But i am still in shock and hurt and still attached to him.
        But many times i decline to see him.
        It is too painful and frustrating as i cannot speak any ‘ sense” to him.
        He just acts as nothing happened and i can see he wants to give me another golden period.. but alrhough i am a naive person..
        now aftervall that hurt.. i do not believe him anymore.. although many times i wish i could believe him thinking maybe this time he is telliing the truth? Nay.. deep inside i know that it is all illusory.

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      6. Yes, mine wanted to start a ‘new period’ it seemed as he had thrown out one hook once, but I pretty much told him if we don’t deal with the facts of what happened already, its not going to happen. It has been hard to stand firm to it all and accept the loss (though its no real loss, he had no love for me). But it causes alot of self doubt, especially when I see many people he has been ‘involved’ with still involved with him or associating with him, and I couldn’t even figure out how to be a friend and see past what he had done to me. Brought up a whole lot of “Why me?” I must have gotten such a bucket full of ick that I could not even attempt to stay his friend and that brings up alot of why me, why didn’t he keep me on his fake good side for a loooong time. Probably as he intended (the infliction of self doubt and all), I wonder what I did wrong not being able to suck it all up just to stay friends with him. This is the hardest part for me now. What I that thin skinned or was he that horrible to me that there was just no way I could have tolerated and accepted what he had done and others really never got the depth of hatred he bathed me with?

        8 years is alot to give to someone and then to find out this is the core of their internal world…. He probably is telling the truth in that moment, at that point in time and all, for what he needs. But its the lasting part, the longevity, the consistency and the breadth of it all where your friend will fail you. This is where it becomes the illusion as what can you build on this? What do you want in life? Its the peace I always come back to… what is my vision of life, what I want to build, to create and endlessly spinning with these people is not getting me there. I get very stuck by them but I am hoping that this is my last dance with a malignant narc.

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  12. This is the best information I have read yet anywhere about how to avoid entanglements with narcs, Good advice, speak your truth and walk away. Tomorrow is another day….

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  13. Hg, this brings up a question from my comment above:

    What happens when the narc and empath both dramatically endlessly discard each other over and over, both screaming “This is it!!”? What ever stops that dance? The empath? It seems that no matter what he said, or did, he could be counted on to backtrack, forget, ‘move on’, and more. How do I know? I always reached out. Failing to deeply grasp the true dyamic at play.

    But what if the empath has delivered tons of wounds and discarded you with the same language she learned from the narc and all … Yes, falling under the “this time I mean it” but each time I meant it, my languag and the efforts I made to damage him got stronger and stronger and I went for him as deeply as I could. Does it then all fall under whether Hoover criteria are met fo a Narc? I get the time and for life part, but is there some you even vow to never go back to even if some of the Hoover criteria is met? Or does it fall under that post about in your perspective, once the punishment and your perspective enforced, you are now good so there is nothing that truly would stop you from a Hoover if criteria were met? Or is there some people you just vow to never go near again? Never even poke them to see if they are still alive?

    The reason I feel this is at last over is that I sense no one has the power right now. It feels in a non man’s land and since this is the case, it’s easy to see how this means there will be no contact ever again on either of our sides. I used to feel we had this constant connection, telepathic even. It feels gone at last and I wonder if I can trust it. I feel at last, he wants nothing more from me, and I him. It feels truly over. And I believe that the risk of his engaging with me really is too great anymore. It is for me, too, but I also think for him. It reached a point of true absurdity. So if me, the empath never reached out again, can I trust the connection is dead at last?

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  14. You are truly amazing with your knack for self-awareness. Yet that does absolutely nothing to Enlighten you for the Light Side. You remain in the dark. Quite interesting parallel Dimensions at work here.

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    1. findinglife11

      yes it is quite remarkable and worth congratulating the awarness of a narc.. but ultimately it is what they do with that knowlege that is worth praising.

      I believe that if they know that a lot of things they are doing it’s evil, then i believe they have the choice to change it, if not, then it becomes a deliberate choice.
      And that it’ s unjustifiable.

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      1. I think they know it is evil from our perspective but they HAVE to do it for their own survival hence they are so selfish. They care about themselves and fuel. They don’t value us to the extent that they feel it is necessary to change for us

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  15. H.G. I have come back to this article a dozen times in the last 2 days. The advice in this article is a complete game changer. Do you even realize how one can re-condition themselves just not with arguing with a narcissist….but for any disagreement?
    “The reason is that there is no alignment of interests.”
    I’m going to retrain myself to think about the interests at stake whenever I am engaging with anyone professionally or personally, narc or not. Obviously, your first example over the money dispute with two non-narcs does not take much analyzing for the resolution to negotiate an amount they can both live with.
    But it can definitely change the line of communication from defending yourself and asking the wrong questions when you take a step back and realize it’s as simple as our interests are not aligned.

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  16. What happens if the victim goes along with the accusations of the narcissist? I have been labelled crazy several times already and smilingly I just agreed with his statement.

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    1. You will not provide us with the fuel we are after but do realise that your acceptance of the fact will be used against you – “I told her she was crazy and she agreed, see what I mean person x.”
      That stated of course you are going to be smeared anyway so you may decide that it is more worthwhile to avoid giving us the fuel and accepting the accusation of smearing.

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      1. My experience is that there is never any true healing on the part of the narcissist. Fuel or whatever we call it can decrease the pain but not heal. Just constant accumulation of wounds.

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  17. Like putting some gauze and a bandaid over a huge, gaping, infected wound. No dressing, no treatment. And it keeps rotting.

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