In The Middle
I had a consultation with Dr O. She looked as clean and inviting as ever. I am sat across the room from her but the scent of cleanliness is discernible. I bet if I tasted her she would taste clean. Her clothes are immaculate, her hair shiny and held in a ponytail and I can see her nails are clear yet manicured. The quality of her skin reminds me of someone I knew long ago. I imagine she attends to a vigorous regime of diet, exercise and skin care to ensure that her healthy, soft looking skin remains so inviting for me. Dr O was engaged in discussing my behaviour.
“What do you think of this statement?” she began, “Your behaviour is repetitive. You draw people to you, you hurt them and then you cast them aside only to draw them in again.”
I waited as I considered this comment.
“Before I answer, I would like to add a caveat,” I remarked.
“Perhaps you could answer it without the caveat. It will keep it simpler.”
“But it is important you understand the context of my response.”
“How about you answer the question first and then you can add your caveat?” she offered.
I reflected on this. It would undoubtedly please her if I did this. By pleasing her she will feel drawn to me.
“Fair enough. That statement is accurate, although,” I answered.
She held up her hand. I would usually plough on, after all, who on earth is entitled to stop me when I am talking? I still felt that by indulging her, it would benefit me.
“Thank you. How do you feel about this statement? You are stuck in this behaviour.”
She had followed-up with a further question, when she said to me that she would allow me to add a caveat. She misled me. I did as she agreed and now she has reneged on that arrangement. I was not pleased. I could feel the anger rising inside. I knew why she had done this. She wanted me to feel small. This is what they all did, just like her. They try to make me feel small and helpless and useless and pathetic and contemptible. I could feel my grip on the situation loosening. There was a sensation of falling as I tried to reach out and grasp my surroundings, but they shifted and moved, spilling through my hands. I could sense the yawning chasm waiting to engulf me, that place of those lost emotions which I fight on a daily basis. They were rising up to haul me into the chasm. They wanted to surround me and consume me. I can hear her voice drifting up from below, echoing and distant yet somehow clear. That ghostly voice from long ago that lurks in the chasm and becomes unleashed when moments like this happen. I can hear the words, the scolding, the criticising, the demeaning words spilling from that cruel gash of a mouth. Please stop it. Please,please,please.
“Yes, I feel stuck. I am stuck with her,” I suddenly said, the words coming out in a forced and breathless manner. Was Dr O in the room any longer? I could not be sure, she seemed to have become blurred as if she had melted into the surroundings.
“I am stuck listening to the unfair and unjust criticisms of everything that I do. I try and move forward, I try each and every day, by trying to extinguish her accusing voice, by finding those who will praise me so that their words will stop her from bringing me down. I have to surround myself with those who can help me diminish and then extinguish her, they are necessary in order to help me survive. I turn to others so that their voices will drown hers out, the kind words, the adoration. I have to have it in order to stop her. Even the screaming and the tear-filled sobbing and the shouting, that is preferable to hearing that woman and her acidic tongue. Sometimes it works for a time, her voice is lost amongst the cacophony of others but she always comes back. Why? What did I do to deserve this? I cannot get rid of her. Even when I think, this time she has been silenced, she somehow surfaces. I cannot stand it. Why do you do this to me? I never did anything to you did I? I just wanted you to tell me what I had done was good, that I got your approval, but you never would would you? I didn’t hurt you, I tried my hardest for you, but you always said I could do better, I could improve, I could go higher. I just wanted to please you, was that so bad? Tell me what I have to do, please? I just want it to stop, I want to be good, I always told you that, but you said I was bad for not doing what you wanted, but I did do what you wanted, you always changed it just as I seemed to be getting closer. Please, I want you to go now and stop hurting me, why are you still doing it, have you not had enough? Stop, please stop, I want you to stop, I want it to stop, I don’t want it anymore, I don’t want to be stuck anymore, I don’t want to be stuck in the middle of this any more, I don’t want to be stuck…in the…middle….with…you.”
I can no longer breathe and my words cannot surface any longer. My chest is tight and the air, the air is being stolen from my lungs now, the floor is moving and shifting. I can hear something but cannot make out what is being said, it is like a roaring. My hands are raking the air as if fighting off unseen attackers but they seem to move so slowly. Dr O comes into brief focus as she is moving across the room towards me. I am falling and the floor is coming up to greet me as the darkness takes me. The all encompassing darkness engulfs me as I hear,
“You’ve let me down again.”
Then there is nothing.
353 thoughts on “In The Middle”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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This one still hits me in the gut and reminds me of her…meaning Matrinarc. I have no pity for whatever comes her way.
Has Dr O been able to bring additional thoughts to the front line.
To reiterate ansd fwiw….I’m glad you are alive after the London attack. NRR.
Thank you.
You are welcome HG.
and there it is… well said Ms brown. That leads to what I was not yet going to mention…
HG: You know how matrinarc treated you, you have insight on it. You established you want her approval because all she has ever done is criticize you and never act proud of you (knowing she is a narc and cannot ever have that kind of feelings but this you know as well, perhaps better then anyone), so 2 things.. one, have you asked yourself (rhetorically) if that is one reason you have agreed to write this blog? As a form of revenge on your mother… look mother, I shall defeat you until all fuel prospects are gone because they are all armed against what you might do to them? And at the same time, look mother how many people love me and are proud of me and all I’ve accomplished with this blog?
and 2. if you always win then would that not imply getting away from matrinarc’s treatment of you, healing and, if you so desire it, unbecoming the narc she made you become? unless you see victory as something else?
all rhetorically of course…
HG I am sorry about the way she made you feel, you are far from rubbish, you have every reason to be angry. She taught you how to hold this anger, water it, cultivated it until it grew into the fury that resides within.
It makes me angry seeing this from my perspective, yet I have said it once before, you are perfect. Only a man of your caliber could convey the message you have been given to tell the world. Yet you had to learn the message, this is where my heartbreaks for you and holds admiration for you. You have been given a responsibility that none could ever take on and bring it into the light.
I listened to your interview this morning, you should have been heard live!
Indeed I should and thank you Twilight.
I, wholeheartedly, agree with your entire statement, Twilight. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! 😊
Very powerful piece of work HG, beautiful writing. It seems you are doing the same things Matrinarc did to you to your victims.
Thank you.
It appears to be so, yes.
And your victims feel exactly the same way as you did so long ago while you subject them to your treatment. We essentially all fight to be loved. I am having a hard time believing that this is not provoking ANY feeling inside of you towards your victims, if you follow that thought of the past. Your victims are made to be that child you once were. It was/is painful to you and now it is to your victims.I am questioning if it’s really only about fuel and control.
@ The Bride, that is really a good point
HG thank you for this insight…
Do you claim to your friends, intimates, inner circle etc …. that you had a uneventful positive childhood and upbringing? For instance should someone suggest that your Mother or a close family member was decidedly unkind/ or flawed in any sense of the word, would you deny any malfeasance? Is it paramount that the facade extend over your family members as well …? Your answer would help me figure something out that I’m questioning at the moment..thank you
I present the picture which best suits my needs and therefore I am not beyond presenting a picture of how awful she is.
It’s that vulnerability that shatters my defenses. Lately I’ve been very conscious of X narc’s susceptibility to hurt. In that way he is no different than I am. I’m developing compassion for narcs trapped in their own constructed prison; they can no more help their “condition” than I can. HG, I’ve a crush on you that I feel free to admit. I find it very hard to listen to your audio and absorb the message. Instead I find myself listening to the way you pronounce “us” and the way your voice invariably deepens on the word. And the over-confidence of your tone and your assurance in knowing the way we will respond to it.
I want to be in X narc’s life. It’s not his job to protect my heart; its mine. We’re talking again. I’m giving him the fuel he needs and he’s giving me the heat I need. I almost feel his inner self swelling with the power he knows he has over me, when I tell him he’s the gotdam man, too much man for just one woman. (Be safe baby!) We may soon be traveling across the miles that separate us and my blood warms at the thought.
HG your work is good and helpful to those who feel they need protection and ways to avoid the narcissist, but it is also helpful for those of us who wish to understand them in order to remain in their lives, and give them what they need and understand what we will be sacrificing if we choose to do so.
You are an invaluable resource, HG, and I thank you for all that you do.
You speak of the empath app in another post. Maybe there is one in the future for those who are attracted to narcs too? There could come a time where narcs and empaths can coexist happily —
“Female super empath, willing to facilitate a long, fulfilling fuel-filled romp, seeking male narc; must be extremely cocky and overconfident, willing to demand what he wants and needs, leaving nothing to guesswork, unabashedly demonstrating very high opinion of himself and willing to remind me in no uncertain terms that it is about him! Prefer a Greater, but will consider a ranger. Lessers need not reply. P.S. Have had supernova vaccination.”
What a wonderful world it would be.
You are welcome and I found your “ad” entertaining.
I would never ever ever consider anything less than a greater.
Standards eh Dr Q?
I done enjoy banging my head against the wall lol.
Absolutely – I don’t deserve anything less than the best lol!
Talking to a mid ranger is mind numbing. It would be more productive to sit down and have a conversation with the wall.
I think it’s very much a possibility after you cross the emotional sea, and reach zero impact. However, you never know if there is another emotional sea on the horizon.. and then another.
I’m considering going back to him, I know how much I love him still, and it’ll never change. I’ll go to the end of the earth to find the cure and heal the emotional emptiness, so he can then look at me and feel the joy.
Well things got interesting here.
Foolish is as foolish does.
Pure is what came to mind the first time I read this.
White being your favorite color, cleanliness, order, manicure yet unpolished
Your statements on cleanliness and taste clean
Out shopping today who pops into my head, HG as I see a pair of shoes I can imagine him wearing for work. Why I have no idea but it just happened. Anyway you were in and out of my head in 1 minute but I had a good chuckle as I picked the shoe up to see price of them to be met with the name of the shoe ‘McClean’. With all this cleanliness talk. 😂
Just had to share for some reason as tickled me 😉
Good to know.
Taste ‘clean’ as in fresh and free from any manipulations or abuse. As in virgin from any pain or crap in her life. Why should she escape? Dr O needs to be corrupted.
Sarah
I think next time HG is in the room with DR O he should take a big deep breath when shes close and then close his eyes and quietly say: you smell different when youre sleeping. Baby steps.
Ha.
I think I should disguise myself as Dr O and be in that room with HG. For all kinds of reasons.
Lol NarcAngel 😂
I agree Sarah. I think many of us fantasize about being Mr. Tudor’s sexy Doc… with the tight skirt, open blouse, and glasses.
I think HG likes his ladies “clean” but the sex dirty lol.
The other day while driving out of a busy store parking lot with people walking everywhere, my narc monster made an odd comment that didn’t surprise me. he said, ” humans are filthy” and I, as always, agreed with him. I mean to a point he was right because some people can be smelly and basically down right unkept hygiene wise. I wonder if he literally thinks all people are filthy. I mean really even the well groomed smell good humans. Humans? I think I need an answer on that because I’m not filthy. Oh god if he thinks that about me. Now I really will fight him to buy me a divorce ring.
Another London attack?! I hope you made it back safely wherever you were staying after the concert!! That is so scary!
I did thank you.
So happy to read that you made it through.
Each time I hear about these cowardly attacks, I now find myself thinking of HG and hoping the same thing – that he’s okay. Take care HG! I always pray for your safety as well as the safety of all other Londoners. 💘
Yes Mr. Tudor, we all care and worry about you! You went silent right before the tragedy. It was so hard not hearing from you!
Damn, HG – Dr. O just asked you a question.
Brilliantly written HG!! Just brilliant!!
I found this piece sad but ammunition filled. Yes, sad for how you feel under such circumstances, but it tells me also how I can use this scenario in a revenge situation. Thinking of the tHiNg only at this point, but unlikely now to have verbal contact with him anyway. If only I had read this piece years ago. Nevermind….
Thank you for sharing this. Again…brilliant work!
Pleasure.
Perfectionistic parents with a sharp tongue are extremely damaging. They expect us to be perfect but they are far from perfect themselves and it is all about doing or achieving but not being.
Someday Matrinarc’s voice will not have any effect on you anymore and it will vanish completely. I have learnt that it is not necessary to *do* something to *be* good enough. You are more than good enough.
HG: I have 3 questions please.
1. Have you read or watched great expectations? Did it touch anything inside of you?
2. So usually your strategy of putting yourself in the center and on a pedestrial works in regard to this?
3. What you are longing for will never come from outside. Have you developed any ideas,how to solve this?
Hello Ava101,
1. Yes I have. It was a good read but I was unaffected by the bildungsroman.
2. Works with regard to what?
3. What am I longing for?
I love it when I have to look up a word – it happens so seldom. bildungsroman indeed :). Could be handy for scrabble.
Strongerwendy
Holy shit Wendy, what version of scrabble do you have? Mine only has 7 tiles.
I looked it up also. Hes got me doing homework at 55, signing up on other sites to listen to him……what next? Wearing a bib down to dinner at the seniors home advertising the Narcsite logo so that it looks like my head is bursting into flames?
I’ll probably do it too. Unless he pisses me off-then it goes on my diaper.
Hello HG,
thank you for solving the technical issues, so I can post again (didn’t work before).
1. Oh. And nice one.
2. In regard to getting approval, praise, etc., originally from matrinarc: In spite of not getting it from matrinarc, you have found a strategy to overcome feelings of feeling inadequate/not good enough? How do you do this in spite of your early experiences and how does it work for you? Why does it continuously have to keep repeated?
3. Getting approval, praise, etc., originally from matrinarc.
Funny, I have always felt like Pip, continuously building myself in hopes that one day I would be worthy of and earn Estella’s love.
Ha ha! Narcangel
Well, you can add on to other letters….for example, someone could have the word “dung” on the board and the missing letter could theoretically be one you connect to…
I like scrabble so much I bought this 😊
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod190063
Oops…
I mean this one
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod1730045
SWendy
I had to look up brobdingnagian. Fat chance I’ll get to use it in scrabble. I bought the lazy susan version when it came out because if my family members were losing they would “bump” the board by “accident”. Now I play WWFs online and yup-have met narcs. One in particular that I used to see used to play me and declare his love and send inappropriate photos and content while his wife was sitting in the same room with him and playing him also (nice triangulation lol). I dont play or talk to him anymore but I still play her and she tells me all about their goings on. She has no idea my previous involvement with him and he has no idea I play and talk to her. Quite amusing. I keep thinking she will say something one day about this person she plays…….
Just a warning to those who may be reading this, that your husband may not just be playing a simple board game over there in his chair and when he goes to the bathroom his phone is in his pocket. hes probably sending dick pics and making plans.
It’s hard for me to think about playing Scrabble after binge watching “The Handmaid’s Tale” this weekend between June and The Commander. lol
Yeah…just watched that too…
Good day StrongerWendy. Under his eye. 😉
nolite te bastardes carborundorum
👍👍👍
In my opinion, I don’t believe the “clean” statement had anything to do with sex/sensual. It has to do with something that was imbedded into him at an early age… perhaps he was told he was dirty, perhaps he was forced to clean as punishment, I don’t know, but I sense it is something much deeper…. He has stated he is very particular about everything, order, cleanliness, perfectionism, etc…probably very much OCD (I can relate I am diagnosed OCD) It gives one a sense of control in their environment and when things are not perfect, we loose our sense of “control” as we perceive it… I did not take that statement within any sexual context at all. I wait for HG to tell more on this….
good point.. i was thinking of “clean” as in maybe she is a nice/safe/kind person… and that might be why he may be interested in seducing her, wrapping her around his finger… lol don’t you just love psychology and all it’s twists and turns?
I think it might be both Ms. Brown ? Clean your room, stay clean, look at the state of you,!!!! clean record, hands clean, wiped clean, …instruction and criticism given to HG..?. but there’s sexual undertones in his writing about it. Let’s not forget sex for a Narc is a weapon, what better way to exert power over the cleanliness and make her dirty? Lol I don’t know just a guess …
@shantily….when I was about 4, I had a family (female) caregiver that repeatedly sexually abused me, then told me how filthy I was “down there” and would afterwards lock me in isolation in a closet (with spiders, which i was/am terrified of)…. as an adult, I am severe OCD, extremely particular, clean constantly, and my favorite color is white…. I am not a Narc. Maybe TMI, but some personal background I have never shared (here) and as to why I perceived HG’s “In The Middle” as I did…
Oh Ms. Brown I’ve only just seen your comment how brave of you to share 🙁 if it helps any all three male authoritative figures in my inner circle growing up were sexually inappropriate with me too …:( it’s no wonder we fall prey to narcissists and have warped outlooks in sexuality!!! I hope and pray you find some peace with what happened to you (what a monster!) again sorry for the late reply (((((hugs))))))
I thought I had replied to your comment Ms. Brown but apparently it didn’t send! I applaud your honesty and bravery Ms. Brown although we are anonymous it’s still hard to share experiences like this but you never know you might be able to help someone somehow by doing so ..if it helps any …. I’ve had sexual abuse growing up as well from every which way it seemed …family boys girls adults other children babysitters … Of course attracted narcs with such a damaged perspective!! And with such a warped sense of sexuality it’s also no wonder we got into crazy sexual situations with narcs as well !!! Hopefully there’s some positive reasons (lessons) for all the negative stuff that happened to both of us ! Hang in there love all the best S 😊Ps I like white everything too !!
I’m sorry Ms. Brown. Thank you for sharing your experience. 💗
In my opinion, I don’t believe the “clean” statement had anything to do with sex/sensual. It has to do with something that was imbedded into him at an early age… perhaps he was told he was dirty, perhaps he was forced to clean as punishment, I don’t know, but I sense it is something much deeper…. He has stated he is very particular about everything, order, cleanliness, perfectionism, etc…probably very much OCD (I can relate I am diagnosed OCD) It gives one a sense of control in their environment and when things are not perfect, we loose our sense of “control” as we perceive it… I did not take that statement within any sexual context at all. I wait for HG to tell more on this….
For me, Mr. Tudor’s writing is very passionate (whether in anger or hate or rage). His words are sensual, seductive even in fury. That’s how I sense it. Perhaps every person perceives it differently.
This article was not at all about being sensual and passionate though. This was replaying a traumatizing session with his doctor and the triggers leading up to it. And a female being “clean” has a deeper meaning as he confirmed in my comment with SVR.
It’s a way for him to exert dominance and control.
Remember in “Big Little Lies” you hung on for a long time really hoping Perry was really a loving, passionate, misunderstood husband?
But Mr. Tudor is different…. Uh, Yes, I know, I know.
He does have the gift of using words to create different feelings in different people…
You’re not alone in that perception.
From reading your blog and several books HG. Do you relate ” Dr. O ” to your enduring obsession and infatuation with “Amanda”..the ethereal, untouched , clean quality that takes you to the palace of perfection? Is that what you are seeking, innocence, that was lost within yourself? Trying to find the “one” who measures up that way and able to yield sustaining fuel.
Regarding disassociation, HG. Are you more often then not, able to recognize when this occurs and what the triggers are for you? Do you often lose time or memory?
This blog piece was very emotionally baring. Thank you for being willing to share it with us all. It was an emotional, heart wrenching and anxious read, indeed.
What was Dr. Os reaction to your obvious behavior?
HG Tudor could you please write a post about narcissistic mothers?
Hava a look at ‘Mother Knows Best’ and ‘Keep It in the Family’. There will also be the book MatriNarc and Little Acons in due course.
Hi HG,
In your articles, when you lay out the N’s manipulations, doesn’t it feel like a self criticism? How is this not hurting you?
Not at all, they are a fact and sharing them here does not impact on me.
I love this line and think of it often:
“I bet if I tasted her she would taste clean.”
You are much more sensual than you know.
I’m pretty sure he knows.
Is Dr O reading this HG?
Well?
to quote Love “I love this line and think of it often:
“I bet if I tasted her she would taste clean.”
You are much more sensual than you know.”
some years ago, whilst out on the town, a guy who must have been trying to hit on me, he kind of schmoozed in and made me feel like he was breathing me in… then he said “mmm, you smell like………. skin”
so yeah… that freaked me out!
I may well have dodged a bullet there…. shame I didn’t dodge the others… particularly this last one.
I’m sorry but that comment ” you smell like skin” made me bust out laughing 😂
Tell me why this is what I thought of… Hahahaha I can’t…. I’m legit laughing so hard right now!
https://youtu.be/v9am7P9pWo8
Lol you smell like skin! Wow. I have gotten ‘you smell like Skittles’. Lol I love Skittles, so I took it as a compliment and had a hankering for them all of a sudden. 😀
DrHQ.
I’d had run ins with ‘bad’ men before, but this was many years before the one that truly broke me (much less obvious, much more devious). I beat a hasty retreat straight away to that sort of ‘line’.
Your Silence Of The Lambs reference is pretty much how I viewed it too at the time…. The guy showed his psycho waaaaay too soon…lol. I was already uncomfortable with his approach (the way he was ‘breathing me in’) but when he said that, I laughed at him, told him he was a weirdo, diverted my attention to my friend, still laughing. He slunk away, and no doubt tried it on someone else until he got a ‘hit’. Some people may have thought this intriguing or sensual. I thought it was hilarious yet also kinda creepy.
He knows.
HG sounds like Donatien Alphonse François de Sade…. and Dr. O reminds me of Histoire d’O….
is it really her real name? The first letter I mean. It seems all so fictionalized. Pardon me if I tend to imagine parallel worlds where things happen. It’s just my imagination, I believe reality is in layers, the visible and the invisible.
So glad HG likes the clean type. I wear heavy make up, I paint my nails black, I am tattooed and I die my hair.
I wear cheap jewelry too, the kind that leaves the green stripes on the skin. It’s cool.
*dye…oops
your inner beauty shines thru all the dyes n make up, even in just text, it’s all that matters..
HG is not the only narc in the world, so your “dirty” doesn’t protect you from all narcs. Unless there’s a backstory in which the two of you cross paths in life. In that case, excuse me.
HG did you ever consider seducing Dr O?
Yes.
Why didnt you?
But is there anything that remarkable in that thought? Isn’t nearly every interaction with a person seductive on some level? Isn’t that one thought you scan everyone with? Can I seduce this woman or man? And not all for sexual gain? Seduction as in flip them into your pocket?
I remember the narc showed up late for an event. He walked in, all super seductive and sexy but only by his energy. I saw him and thought, he wants us all to look at him and focus on him and be drawn to him. It was like he was vacuuming all our energy, or trying to.
This is mentioned in the Confession of a Narcissist I read two days ego.
Thank you for sharing this HG.
It makes so much sense now because the N had that relationship with his mom.. and any small criticism from me .. this is how he felt.
Me leaving and massive criticism from my part really wounded him massive. He is now back for more… a week of desperation but since he is very afraid of rejection once again .. it’s very covert handled.
If he shows up … and he will this summer (uninvited.. if he don’t get through to me) he will get it bad. It’s almost like he wants me to punish him… I finally got that after reading this text. Despite all my criticism of his actions and me being (due to trauma) a real crazy bitch (forgave me self already) he is back for more…
What up with that? After I crushed him completely with words .. cruel reality .. he is now in a covert way begging his way back.
I need to get a new consultation this week because it’s just madness what is going on.
Not that I care about him anymore … really because you gave me the insight… but because it’s absolutely absurd and I’d like to get your opinion.
As for the above text … madness.. but it makes sense now!!!
I’m sorry HG that you feel that way and that you were wounded as a child. I’m truly greatful for you sharing because it’s so much easier to purge N when knowing. Knowledge is power!!!
You are very very naughty mr Tudor, and very very dangerous..
Hello ED, hope everything is alright with you
it’s all his fault Giulia, he provoked me to draw negative fuel by unleashing his lieutenants and his tertiary former ipps.. so I reacted, shouldn’t have but I did.. I’m in a lot of stress lately because i exposed a greater narc online n now I’m a bit scared but it was the right thing to do to protect another Empath from potentially getting hurt.. I’m ok 🌸
Who are you referring to when you write “he” ?
you..
Thought so. I am busy now but you can expect a robust response to your repeated lying presently.
HG, leave “this” phone behind and go enjoy the DM concert!🎸 I feel fury waking up.
I hope they play “I just can’t get enough” 🎸🎼🎶
Oh I am. Just using the travel time to attend to some blog business and then it will be Fuel, beer and Depeche Mode.
HG! So if we access the London Stadium webcam…WE COULD SEE YOU WALK IN!😅
What are you wearing? And, is she blonde or brunette?
Be generous in your details!
and in that precise order, I presume ⛽🍺🎵
No, don’t leave us alone Mr. Tudor. Keep us with you ❤
Now come come Love. Men need time to play. 😉
Lol oh SVR, these narcs get their play in behind, around, on the side, and in front of you.
You can have tertiary IPPS’s, Mr. Tudor??? Gosh, I must have missed that chapter in your books. 😍
No you can’t. That sentence in itself exhibits the nonsense and inaccuracies peddled by ED. A tertiary intimate partner primary source is oxymoronic. The truth about ED will be unmasked shortly.
Oh boy… time to grab popcorn and settle in….
Oh dear indeed. I never realised something was up. Can you 2 not settle your differences in an adult way?
That is precisely what will happen.
Someone’s getting a one-way to the Spam Dungeon….
That is good to hear. Enjoy your concert. Which makes me think that era you are about my age. Enjoy ☺
Thank you. I did. I shall be seeing them at least three further times this year. Next is Rome later this month.
lol, ⭐️!
Good! It is very easy for me to ignore her comments and wish others would stop feeding into her ego. Empathy has nothing to do with it at this point.
She is fine and dandy and knows exactly what she is doing.
I love you all. Be good, be quite, be patient, be happy, no need to trouble your hearts.
Emotion detective
I have a serious problem with you running your mouth making false accusations about Hg and throwing misinformation out there.
Let me break it down for you – he really doesn’t care enough about anyone on this blog to do anything to them and he is clearly intelligent enough to understand he wouldn’t wanna mess around with the heads of his readers – logical- he wouldn’t gain from the situation.
What you are throwing out here isn’t right – has no facts supporting it – and quite honestly you could get yourself in a lot of trouble if you are misrepresenting yourself and trying to pretend you have some research findings.
ED! You’re back. You worried me when you wrote on the WNAAD site that you’re scared to come back to the blog. I’m glad you’re over your fear.
Im not
Ha ha
I’m not scared. Some things just trigger me, lack of personal integrity, lack of sensitivity, being close minded.. and I need to react for that not to soil my mind. Review their brutish responses to me, that would never squeeze thru my throat, and you’ll understand.
I think it was failed silent treatment on her part, so using new tactics now
ED, you seem so desperate for attention here. It has become quite sad to watch because it doesn’t seem you have anything to contribute or learn, but you seem bent on trying to provoke people and create a whole bunch of word salad and noise for attention.
I wonder if she is a lower or middle midranger….
Take responsibility for your behavior.
Thank you for sharing this HG…
Very telling indeed. Explains a lot to me, as the ex….after an exhaustive circular argument utilizing all her narc tools….I would typically shut down on her…no longer able to go toe to toe with her. I didn’t know it at the time, but now know I was deploying the empathic I give up silent treatment. The more calm I got, the more she raged…after 30mins of no reaction on my part, she would all of a sudden “snap” and start sobbing hysterically…then begging me “Tell me something good about me!!! Tell me you want me!!! Tell me!!! Tell me”!!! I couldn’t…and would continue the silence, then it would be her begging me “Show me you love me!!!, show me you want me”!!! As she would move close to me and try to kids me…”show me! Show me! Show me”! It was so pathetic…it repulsed me…was just like the book title…”I hate you! Don’t leave me!”
Can’t count how many times this repeated itself… God help these people!
The narc I knew always asked what I thought of them. Saying about parts of his body he did not like, for me to say don’t be silly you are lovely. I wised up to it and said it does not matter what people think of you its what you think that matters. Oops! Injury!
HG, You are good enough. You were and are better than good enough. You always were and don’t need others to validate this. I hope the work you are doing makes a difference for you and leads to less victimization. I really appreciate your honesty.
HG thank you for this I gave me some insight to the narcissist in my life it broke my heart for you and for my narc I know he experienced some pretty bad things as a child I’m sad that I can’t fix it for him in spite of the things he has done I still love him. You have helped me understand him and myself so much keep working at it.
You are welcome.
Oh my…so beautifully written HG and such raw emotion. Ahhhh my heart breaks for you, I wish ( and I’m sure others feel the same) that there was some way to stop this for you. I wish our words of encouragement could heal this in you.Thank you for sharing this with us.
HG, I am so sorry this was done to you. Thank you so much for having the courage to share with us. It has to be healing for you, if even just slowly. I’m always in the background cheering you on! 😊👍
Thank you.
You know I always valued and appreciated this very personal piece as one of your best and really sharing a piece of the man under the HG name.
I echo and felt so many of the reactions the other readers had like Indy, 12345, Sue, SVR, etc.
Oddly, this time I chose to focus on the beginning and what led up to the panic attack / blackout.
If I could talk to Dr. O, I would ask her if she had a specific line of questioning focusing on a theme for that day, that she wanted to finish with you, before she let you interject with your caveats? It may not have been the case at all that she was trying to cut you off and make you feel small. She may have been trying to present a scenario of “let’s have this conversation and you see where it leads while in the process learning to trust me.”
I’m curious of how highly fragile the difference in worldview of how things are interpreted and can quickly become a criticism or wounding with your reaction to not getting your voice heard right away with the caveat immediately transported Dr. O into a replacement for MatriNarc. Like instantaneously. And how many times your brain is switching that on you unnecessarily with different people who never intend to make you feel small but the way a conversation flows, suddenly you’re triggered like it’s MatriNarc and you go in defense mode. If so, that is heartbreaking to me that down to your core, you fear love so much your automatic mode is fight, flight, or freeze.
Would you ever be willing to share what happened with Dr. O in following up after that session?
I’m not sure why this popped out at me this time either, but your articulation of Dr. O’s appearance being “clean”. That she would even taste “clean”. You seem to have a preference for manicured but unpainted nails too even (I remember that mentioned in “Hush”). Are you drawn to what appears clean = wholesome = safe and almost angelic in the hopes of feeling saved from how dirty, rotten and unworthy MatriNarc made you feel?
Just what popped out at me this time with this very special work you shared.
Thank you for your contribution Clarece, I appreciate your input.
I am attracted to clean. You will realise why as more is written.
You’re welcome! I know you do.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it would be helpful for whoever is in a relationship with you (if you really want them to be the one) to learn how to communicate with you in a way of intercepting any wounds before you interpret them that way.
For example, let’s hypothetically say Dr. O did want you to follow her along a specific line of questioning and THEN would still hear out your caveat by saying something along the lines “I do want to hear your caveat, but I’m moving in a direction that I want you to trust to see where it goes? Can you explore that with me?” Had she done that instead of just holding up her hand, triggering you feeling shut down, do you think that could have diffused the panic attack from happening?
It was very interesting as is this. We all like clean but as you say we dont say it like this. There is something else here we are missing.
i get that attraction, and can’t live without it….curious as to why you are as well
Now that was very interesting read. I noticed also HG talking about Dr O as if she did it for him. Hope you are well Clarece.
Hi SVR! Thanks for saying it was interesting. I wasn’t sure if I was sounding way off-base.
Using “clean” to describe someone, albeit a very good thing to hear, it’s just not that common of an adjective to use, especially to go so far as to say they would taste clean.
I have a hunch that although HG has had all sorts of women, because he can, he is truly drawn to the types being pretty but with a wholesome vibe rather than a Khardashian wanna-be type. But then it goes further… he wants to absorb that goodness from them, and taint them with his darkness. Mark them like territory.
Correct
Let me guess.. a Bernadette from Big Bang type wins! Lol
Clarece I noticed the clean references also as did you. I was thinking that perhaps wanting to take their cleanliness onto himself to get rid of the feeling of being dirty and never good enough caused from his abuse. Like a cleansing of the soul. I hope you can make sense of this!
I think that definitely plays into it!
Clarece Thsnk you for understanding what I was trying to say! Lol. Sometimes I think like many of us he was robbed of the innocence of childhood and I personally see that as a time of being pure and clean.
Yes! That and narcissists tend to be very envious. So if someone still has an “innocence” about them maintained through adulthood, even with dealing with their own pains, the narc will covet that.
Clarece,
Your comment regarding “innocence” struck me. Mine used to tell me all the time how amazing and good and innocent I was. And now troubled he was that he “came into my life and turned it upside down” the way he did. He was shocked when we discussed sexual matters and he learned I had only been with one other person. Compared to his conquests I was akin to the Virgin Mary. He also shared with me that he was the only person his wife had been with too. If that was true (and it likely was as she’s religious and all) then damn your comment hits home. They must prefer any and all types of innocence perhaps? An interesting perception you’ve shared.
I definitely experienced JN seeming intrigued at my “innocence” in that my husband had been the only other man I was with and he was #2 after the divorce. We joked how he popped my “divorce cherry”. Nice! Meh!
Later on though, it definitely was a dark avenue for him to try to persuade me into a darker, sexual side he had and a few things I did thinking I was being adventurous and exploring something with someone who actually cared about me, which was exciting. Some things were too much and I would then fight with him about it.
It’s been nice to make the choice over the last year to completely remove myself from the dating scene (and him) to basically go back to a clean canvas and not allow myself to become desensitized to some of the sleaze that really exists now especially with online dating and what men will text and ask when you know they would never have the balls to talk that way in person if they were face to face with you. My co-worker and I want to get t-shirts made that read, “It’s easy to be sleazy.”
It’s actually been a goal of mine to return to an “innocence” and it becomes easy doing that being with my daughter so much and all of her coming of age events getting into middle school.
TLC knew what they were singing about in ’99 with “Scrubs”. lol.
Wow, the similarities!! Minus the verbage, my ex was the same. He took pride in the fact that I only had one partner before him and was a “good girl”. He stated he liked that I was “naive and hadn’t been around”. Looking back that was probably to see how much abuse I would take.
Wow MLA-Clarese!
Very insightful! And well communicated ( I envy that!lol). When I read this piece yesterday, one of the first things that struck me was how unreasonable this type of thinking is..
if only there was a way to stop the perceived Critisism in its tracks.. it seems like the catalyst for a lot of the other behaviors …
Thank you for your insights on this! You’re a gem!
Thank you so much. I value and appreciate so many of your comments too.
Get this though, it took me reading this several times and seeing it the three times HG has posted this over 18 months to think to go to the beginning of it. Like everyone, it’s hard not to get enveloped in the actual panic attack and what he’s feeling during the panic attack when he describes that part.
Something about that session with Dr. O became a huge trigger for him from the get-go.
Thank you, that is very nice of you to say!
You are right, the energy from this article is so overwhelming, you get brought right in. Enveloped is a great word..
It seems to me, an obviously I may be totally wrong but it’s clear that HG is attracted to Dr. O. And it’s seems he’s fantasizing about her in the beginning of this interview … she’s clean and well taken care of for Him…..etc. getting caught up in the fantasy of her … then going a long with that, let’s her have her way with the conversation in hopes that she’ll reciprocate and appreciate his kindness toward her. (delusions of grandeur ) Then she does something his Mother would have done and bam! Hits him in the face.. back to reality and he couldn’t deal with it.. lost control , panic!
P.S. I wish JN had thought I was a gem! Lol
A type of clean implies order and control. Often people who are regularly “clean” or coiffed come across as predictable and dependable because they always physically present the same way as an object. You can rely on the presentation and it reduces the unpredictable nature of personalities. They help feed a fantasy of the ideal that never really exists.
I don’t think it is thinking. Its an automatic tape that just starts playing. Thats not real thinking. When the panic begane, it seemed to coincide with the questions that really focused on who he is and what he feels inside. The panic seemed a pure dissociative reaction of trying to find words to describe an internal experience when the internal experience is the still alive world of a child. It is the helpless, overwhelmed, abandoned world of a child. Not being able to fully cope, he grabs on to a particular familiar voice, the Mother. She may have said that at the end when he was a young boy, or he offered it as a child as an explanation for why he panics, why the confusion, why the emotions that had no place in his home, he is a failure. I never saw him attracted to Dr O but rather is finding a comfortable point of connection to grab on to and her clean presentation is the point of focus.
When I first went in to therapy decades ago, I was profoundly dissociated. I would be asked things and next the therapist was asking me, “Where did you go?” Not knowing I went anywhere. I would stare at her shoes. I had a love affair with her shoes. For some reason, they gave me a tiny point of focus. So while I experienced that roaring panic, the dizzy swirling crazy, I focused on her shoes and hair. I projected what little was left of me in the room on her shoes or who knows where I would have gone. Maybe passed out like HG did. Its like being in a tunnel, dark, roaring, alonr, nameless, empty tunnel that is about to burst.
I was also pondering over those repeated remarks of Dr. O’s cleanliness, but did not dare to go there, so, thank you for bringing it up, Clarece!
Sometimes, I read smugness into it. He contemplates seducing her just to demonstrate his power… and thinks that she is flirting with him (wearing shorter skirts) and fighting to resist. ‘Dr. O’ means ‘Dr. Obsessed with HG’, by the way.
Sometimes, I think he wants to surround himself with the (perceived) ‘clean’ to return to a place where he once felt clean, in the sense of untouched. That’s the heart-breaking bit. But this bliss never lasts, as he takes delight in destroying the innocent, as if to say ‘I feel tainted, and that’s why I will make you feel dirty, too. But now, I am the doer, not the done to’.
Oh I definitely think HG wants to have power over Dr. O. He doesn’t like having someone know so many personal details about him without having something in return from that person. His fallback is being charming and seducing because he’s batting 1000 with that tactic with the females. Lol
I am doubtful Dr. O wears short skirts just for HG’s sake. I’m sure she sees other patients on the days he’s booked. She seems very professional with her own practice (possibly shared with Dr. E). I just don’t always see them as these bumbling doctors pushing and coercing HG.
Of course I sympathize with HG that HE feels pressed and under a microscope and these doctors have to report back to his mother and uncle.
However, if they are truly professional and good at their job, despite whoever pays the bills, they would be able to stay unbiased and objective to treat their patient and have his best interests at heart. HG did some kind of act that made his family react that therapy had to be an option. But his family chose the doctors I think so he has to make the best of it. I’ll be interested to read his book about the doctors when he finishes it.
Matilda…your statement …i feel tainted and ill make you dirty too….ohhhh so true!!! Ive felt this many a time with the narcs in my life. It stems from envy. It ties into yesterdays narc truths I corrupt the beautiful.
If Dr. O means obsessed then she shouldnt be a therapist. I feel so strongly about this. I had a situation with a psychologist and it really ruined my trust. There are dirty unethical therapists out there. Dr O i doubt is one of them because this is an interpretation from a narcissist which could be inflated.
Of course, HG would want to have power over Dr. O., like everybody else he interacts with in real life. He assumes that she must have the hots for him, like every female he graces with his presence. 😉
The doctors sound professional to me, but I can understand HG’s unwillingness to comply, as the patient is arming them with information to be used against him later on. HG seems to be enjoying the mind games played though, frustrating the hell out of his doctors with circular conversations.
Assume? Of course she adores me.
Tsk, tsk, tsk, HG… a little humility would do you good! 😀 I hate to burst your bubble, but not every woman who sets eyes on you wants to rip off your shirt! 😀 😀
Oh I know that, many would prefer to embrace my mind instead.
Or both.
Not me of course… 😉
Matilda
Its not his shirt they want ripped off. Its his pants.
Not my fantasy.
Mine is still to be led in blindfolded and sat in a chair for a bit while hes in the room. Then led out. Not a word spoken.
The first time…………
NA
Yes the first time I would have to agree with you on that, that thought makes me hold my breath and heart skip a beat.
I wonder thou if he would go unnoticed…..that I doubt
True! The workings of your mind never cease to amaze me 🙂
NarcAngel,
Ha ha! Ripping off pants is not very classy, I dare say. 😀
Gosh, blindfolded?! Entirely at his mercy? ‘Hush’ comes to mind! 😉
Mine would be everything a narc hates… lots of cuddling, snuggling, laughter, honesty, vulnerability… sweet and caring… not sure if such a guy exists at all, but that’s what I’d like to have. So, please, universe, show some consideration to my poor nerves next time you send me someone to looove! 😀
Curious,
Yes, envy is one of the root causes of their misery.
HG calls her ‘Dr. Obsessed’ because of her thorough note-taking during their therapy sessions. 🙂
Psychologists hold too much power for my liking. I would not trust them either. From HG’s recollections, I think Dr. O. has always been professional.
A type of clean implies order and control. Often people who are regularly “clean” or coiffed come across as predictable and dependable because they always physically present the same way as an object. You can rely on the presentation and it reduces the unpredictable nature of personalities. They help feed a fantasy of the ideal that never really exists.
This is so painful to read and your raw honesty is inspiring to me.Your descriptions have made me cry for your suffering. You were given this suffocating burden of shame that should never have been yours. Thank you for sharing and I hope the continuing difficult work you are doing lightens this load you carry by some measure.
This is a very visceral description of events, well written!
I am torn… I feel for you, I really do… but I also know that you are bringing suffering of this kind to others every day of your life. Your victims are going through the same hell: the put-downs, the not good enoughs, in an endless loop inside their minds, eating away at their core.
I can still hear the recent narc, and others of his kind… even 25 years later, I can still hear some of them whispering into my ear… I can still see scenes in my mind’s eye as if they happened yesterday… they resurface in moments of failure. But with time and life experience, I have come to realise that these people do not matter at all in the grand scheme of things! I am me, and that is okay. Those who don’t like that, can go to hell!
The situation with your mother is difficult. She still has considerable influence over your life, and you are tied to her as long as she lives. HG, do you think your narcissism will decrease to more socially acceptable levels when she passes away? When that thorn in your side is gone?
Thank you. If she departs before my Grand Design is complete I will find that to be a source of considerable frustration and fury. If she departs after that has been achieved, I am not sure how that might impact on the way that I am.
“If she departs after that has been achieved, I am not sure how that might impact on the way that I am.”
Does it mean you could be filled with remorse or guilt for having carried out your plan?
Goodness me, no. I meant I do not know how it will impact on my narcissism, there will be no remorse or guilt.
I understand now, thank you.
Oh HG, It hurts a little bit reading your answer.
In case of the first scenario if she departs before you achieve your Grand design would lead you to be “caged” in that feeling of fury and frustration. Is revenge the only option for you?
In case of the second scenario if she departs after your Grand Design: wouldn’t it be a feeling of “liberation” of something that has haunted you for many years?
Revenge is the only option.
Not so much liberation as retribution and the righteous application of judgement to one who utterly deserves it.
HG do you think you will still need to repeat things with your partner once you have attempted this retribution?
Depends if they step out of line or not.
Interesting yet expected, thank you HG
Isn’t it a kind of liberation? Both revenge,retribution and the righteous application of judgement will be all ” cathartic” for you and consequently liberating as well?
We shall have to see.
I hope it will HG…
Do you think deep down MatriNarc knows to the extent you have evolved in your adulthood and fears this could be coming her way? And that she fears you?
She shrouds herself in arrogant ignorance and assumes that the boy who could not fight back never will fight back. She is wrong.
That answer made me catch my breath, HG. That is a very telling answer to what you keep buried deep inside. A lot of unresolved grief surrounded by rage.
Grief? No. Fury? yes.
No, the grief is all wrapped up and consumed in The Creature.
Oh Mr. Tudor, I wish I could hold and cuddle that little boy 😢
If he still exists somewhere deep within – he should know he is loved by many.
i understand your sentiment Love but the thought of a cuddle made me shudder.
Lol I would cuddle that little boy. He needs it and should have received plenty of it. 💗
I agree: revenge is necessary to cleanse your soul.
She is not allowed to die beforehand!! But it’s fairly save to assume that she will reach very old age. The devil shudders at the thought of having her for all eternity, that’s why he defers the inevitable longer than necessary. 😀
Well, I truly hope that you will get better, you know, less bitter and hateful… it would do you good.
Do you believe that revenge will satiate the beast, so your narcissist traits may be lowered?
I do not believe it will lower my traits.
I hope it would not somehow have the opposite affect either, in that, if accomplished and just the way you envision, then you get an even more insatiable need to inflict pain and hurt. Once the revenge on her is complete, there could be a path to follow for more peace and calmness in your life; or you may feel another void and boredom with that now removed. Although, I don’t think anyone has hurt you like she did.
But it will make you feel better and do something to the beast?
so, no possibility of NC with her?
That will come in time.
HG, Since your mother is a narc and, as you’ve said, they are compelled to do what they do, do you factor in the abuse she may have suffered as a child that contributed to her being a narc?
Not sure which kind she is, but do you think she could have controlled the abuse against you and didn’t?
Do you consider what she did any worse than what you do as you punish others for her transgressions (if you theoretically looked at it as someone elses situation to assess and not your own).
Matilda, great comment. Good for you for loving and embracing your true self. I laughed at “socially acceptable” levels of narcissism. 😀
I imagine a sign stating ‘please lower your level of narcissism in this establishment’.
Love, thank you. Your comment made me laugh out loud. 😀
I thought of something like him complaining to the waiter for a ridiculous reason… and you would say: “Okay, you had your dollop of negative fuel, that should last you for the next two hours (having dinner). Have I made myself clear?” You would give him the evil stare you had practised, and show him the taser in the hand-bag, to be used as a corrective measure if necessary 😀
Lol oh my! A taser!
A narc taming machine 😉 … if talking does not help, pain surely will! 😀 [I’m kidding]
This was powerful and well written! I am so sorry this has happened to you and you can’t escape! I hope even after your aims are reached you continue with your treatment. You have such a brilliant mind, and I feel honored that you share these experiences with us!
Thank you
A wonderful insight HG. I saw the little lost boy in my ex 3 times and everytime he looked at me like I was a stranger. I wanted to hold him and soothe him but he was too terrified to let me near him. The next day he pretended nothing happened. I hurt for him, I felt his anguish and his pain but I couldn’t help him.
It must be excruciating to deal with this. I admire your strength as I did his.
Thank you
Hi HG. Thanks for sharing your story. It takes a lot of bravery to do that. Also, I think your posts that talk about your life experiences are the ones I enjoy the most.
Some people say they want to save you. I don’t want to save you. Your therapist was deliberately leading you to feel some feelings and face some thoughts that you repress, and that is necessary for your recovery.
But when I read your story I felt myself in your shoes. I now get this dizzy, painful rush of toxins into my brain when I think about my narc. I imagine this is what he experiences too on a regular basis, and it’s like it’s spread to me. It’s a trauma response. When I read your story my head started to hurt. That’s the sign of a true empath, isn’t it?
I think my narc also has his origins of psychopathy from his parents. He has never been really clear about what happened to him, but something did. He has an unusual relationship with his mother – very unusually close. I think he’s done the opposite to you, and instead of hating his abuser, he has drawn her very close to the point of unhealthy enmeshment.
Thank you. I appreciate the honesty of your observations.
Wow this is absolutely horrible. Very Insightful into your mind and how it works, but still horrible. I know you and your kind don’t feel emotions, but I just wanted to say that I’m sorry for what you’ve had to experience. This is no way to live.
So I guess this is how it starts? Something horrible that happens to you in your childhood? Just makes me think back as my mid range briefly mentioned something here or there about his childhood… now I realize it might’ve been a clue to what happened to him.
I know someone saying they feel sorry won’t have any effect on you, but nonetheless I’m still sorry that this happened to you.
Thank you
gbean
Ironically, HG is a victim of narcissistic abuse too. It is kind of weird when you think about it. Devalued (abused) so badly as a young child, that he is being punished for the rest of his life. So, he punishes because of it. The Ripple Effect.
Yes he has been a victim of narc abuse. What I found interesting that Dr O did it for him. Strange how the mind works. She would have taken pride in herself for herself not HG. All the same HG is this Dr the type you would try to ensnare?
😔🙁
I hear the echoes of my father’s voice and feel his physical presence even after being estranged for the last 25 yrs…
Anyway, a powerful insight into the mind of an NPD sufferer. Respect.
This is awesome. I’m not a narc, but I fight her voice too.
I remember my ex narc saying to me one day in a rage “Quit telling me what to do! You know who you sound like? (Then he said his dad’s name). Poor narc has his dad’s voice in his head all the time I presume. Enjoying your blog so much. It has helped me detach.
This was very difficult to read. Your life is literally an iterative nihilistic loop and you were condemned by your mother, who abused you, and your father, who stood by and did nothing to protect you, to suffer for their misdeeds. The two people who should have loved and cared for you chose not to and that is a tragedy for everyone.
First of all, very good piece.
Then a question, who says “you’ve let me down again”, your mother (in your head) or the therapist?
You can’t let down therapists…you know that….
I’ll be honest with you, as always nothing but the truth. I have mixed emotions. Part of me wants to catch your fall and do anything to empower you to win your fight, part of me is frozen in fear. A little voice in my head says….”hold it Giulia….hold it….remember last time you throw yourself in the fire to help someone….? Remember how that ended?”
The truth is I don’t know what to do. And there’s no need for me to know what to do, that is your fight, you must win, not me nor anybody else.
I can tell you though that you can win and you will win.
It was Matrinarc. I appreciate your honest disclosure of your reactions.
Well said. A true survivor of narc abuse.
Yes giulia, because as I mentioned in a comment not yet posted, that feeling HG described is not unlike what I went through with ‘my’ narc and despite how horrible I was beginning to feel, I rushed in to help him when he ramped up his pity play. I saw his pain as more worthy of attention than my own which he was causing by his verbal assaults. Its a powerful piece, and then the gentle reminder to self kicks in that this level of pain is what he knowingly causes to others. Its very sad, deeply tragic, this cycle of this kind of abuse.
Yes Sarabella…but…it’s complex.
Emotional wounds are complex.
Don’t know about you but part of the reason why I feel this powerful drive to help someone in need is the need to rescue myself.
It has been manipulative also, on my side….sort of.
“I help you so you shall help me” .
Never in an evil way. In a codipendent way.
I feel like my good intentions have been worped and exploited when I was a child so my efforts to help others and myself were not only not effective but making it worse.
With abysses of pain as a result.
I still get involved, sometimes, a little but I am very carefull.
It’s about boundaries also….I understand what you talk about but I don’t feel like I’ve done nothing wrong in trying to help others. I wanted something for me too, I tried to gain something.
Like I said it’s complex and wide.
These are just little reflections of the real dinamic in these things.
I’d like to help, truly, but without strings attached….I am learning, still, like all of us 🙂
For me, I can directly trace back this helping behavior as a solution for some way for me to connect to people which started in this particular manner when my narc like mother did some really terrible things and it seemed a way for me to fill in where her empathy, compassion and love was grossly missing. I later used it as a way to navigate work and be helpful, And the it was then what was fully exploited by the narc. I never did it in a fully codependent way creating connection. , but I am learning not be that way anymore. Listen to people’s stories and then move on but not allow them to pull energy from me as I see often, behaviors soon followed for me that were not in my best interest at all.
Thank you for explaining. Your path however painful seems to be a lot clearer than mine.
What matters is that in the end we both made the decision to follow our best interest….precisely what we’ve been trained not to do when we were children…..it’s never too late to learn 🙂
HG always wins, his words…
HG,
I am sitting at my desk feeling numb. I cannot believe what I just read. First of all the talent in your writing is unbelievable. I was completely sucked into that story as if I were in your head with you, experiencing all of it. Thinking to myself that I have to help you … I have to turn off the faucet but it just keeps flowing……. What a valuable piece to really help us to understand what you are experiencing. It’s not just something you can stop…
I left a comment about the article “I WANT” and I said that is sounds like it’s coming from a person who is in a lot of pain and turmoil. This reinforces what I thought.
It’s very heartbreaking to think that you have to make so much effort everyday to keep that under control..
It’s very heartbreaking to think that that child is still there and feels like their drowning.
Thank you for sharing this…. it has been very impactful to me and others I am sure.
Thank you.
I can relate growing up with a narcissistic mother who rarely showed me love and on a daily basis triangulated me with my brother. I also was sexually abused as a child. Each persons experience is different and individual and how they cope with it.
My question is…what do you want from these sessions? Are they mere entertainment? A way to get your hands on an inheritance? Do you want to be helped? I dont get from your therapy blogs what it is you want. Its a crying shame because at 160.00/hr(probably way more) with one psychologist there are people out there that really need this help and cant afford it. They want to be helped. Dr O isnt there to be seduced by you shes there to help you.
This session sounds like it made some headway but its got to come from you. You have to be your own parent now. You can blame your mother for eternity and remain “stuck” or you can decide to let go and let these doctors help you. The choice is yours.
Your mother did this to you? Don’t you want to rise above your past and stop a cycle Do you not realize that your behavior will force you to die alone bc if you do not break through your own pain to learn how to feel love then there will be no one in the end to ensure you aren’t lying in your own feces without food until you starve to death? What a horrible, lonely way to end your life. Would it not be easier to deal with the initial pain, accept you were broke and find a real love so that someone will always take care of you. Your articles have reassured me that I’m not crazy and although I’ve been hurt most painfully since birth by 90 percent of the people I love. I have learned that going through the process to heal and come out smarter and stronger but still empathetic is real power. I will give no one enough power to take away the real reason that I deem we were put on earth: to love one another. You give your initial abuser the power to control the rest of your life by taking away your God given right to feel actual love bc that feeling to be loved and loved brings such a serene peace and comfort that you will not achieve without the capacity to love. Your life will always be full of negativity and mind games- anger and hurt. Science has proven those emotions shorten your life and cause damage that you are not even aware. I know you can not miss emotions that you don’t remember feeling and don’t believe exist. But- what if they do…
I don’t know what to make of this. But that sense of roaring, the utter confusion, the sensation of terrified spinning… this is what I felt when the narc did his first brutal devaluation. It was spiningly dizzingly when he abruptly devalued me. I am sure that internal experience you experienced is what many of your victims feel though brought on differently.
Who is Dr O? Therapist you are being forced to see?
Yes.
HG
So powerfully written. It is quite a vivid description of flashbacks with dissociation. This description you give makes such as strong case for trauma-based reactions being tied with the development of narcissism in your situation.
You really pull us in with this piece. I felt your inner child, the one that went through it all, the lack of unconditional love and regard. My ex-narcissist’s inner child was what kept calling me back, kept me in the dynamic with him. I wanted so badly to rescue him from it, though it was not my job or place. I saw this child, through his eyes at times. And I could never rescue him to begin with. Thus, I had to leave the man with the wounded child within. For my survival and to heal my inner child. Still a work in progress. Always will be. And, it does get better with time and true healing. Trust me. First you have to walk through fire though.
This is hard brave work you are engaged in, in therapy. No for the faint at heart. I hold hope that with your skills and unique level of awareness you can find some healing of your past memories. I know that there are elements you may wish to not heal and perhaps limits to it with regard to sociopathy. That is your choice completely and I respect that. And, your ability to write this with such awareness, offers so much potential for healing of those memories and the “creature” inside. What would this look like, if the “creature” ceased to exist due to the healing of the past abuse? Something to ponder.
Looking forward to your further works on your current therapy journeys and experiences.
Thank you Indy.
Indy,
I like what you wrote. It is a good description of the dissociation and the effects of abuse.
HG,
step one… give your ‘creature’ a name. This is one way you will reabsorb the creature back in to you. I did it but mine was situation was a little different. Name it, draw it, read to it and dare yourself to love it in private, even if your actions seem empty and you feel nothing. I can guarantee you that if you do this, dying like that while doing it, over and over, it will shift. I did it and I survived. It still took decades for me to undo the bad wiring and rewire myself up properly. And me being here iss proof I didn’t fully succeed as I was targeted. But I know it works. That inner child needs HG and only HG to start to love him. Fake it till you make it.
Thank you Sarabella.
Hi Sarabella!
My hats off to you! This type of work is definitely long term, though the long term benefits are priceless. And, I really like some of your recommendations as well! There is truth to using a “fake until you make it” approach. I used that approach on myself while healing from major depressive disorder. I like how you apply it here!
Indy, it is so long term… I didn’t realize I had gotten derailed quite some time ago. The effects slowly grew until this narc experience I had revealed I still had broken places. But I remember when I very first started off on this path a long time ago. I was deeply dissociated. I worked on my inner child doing things that felt so foolish. I looked like a fool in my own eyes. Until eventually, I taught myself to cry again. Even that was so incredibly odd. Like watching someone from far away. But the day I started naming all the parts of me, and learned to have running dialogues with them (like Its ok, Sara, this is going to be fine, I am here with you, I will take care of you and we will find a safe way together…”) things like that, was when I started to feel human again. A terrifying feeling came up, and seemed to repeat, I gave it a person’s name and defined it as a new feeling, I had crazy inner dialogues. It helped. I had forgotten about that work though. When the narc started to come after me, I wish I had been able to dialogue that way but I thought I was all ok. I tried to journal it, but I was already panicked and out of control and I disintegrated rather fast with his machinations. Old familiar places I guess from my own mother and family.
SaraBella,
Thank you for sharing this impressive and brave journey to self!! There is no shame in being tripped up by abusers. You did not make that choice to be abused. And, you are here, stronger and healing again with deeper knowledge from all the stripes you earned in battle. Salutes you! We are all soldiers in this, some days we plow thru the muck and other days we need to find a Fox hole. Still we move forward. Many have died in this battle, you do them honor to heal and keep telling your story! It’s healing g actually to develop our own narratives of our lives and see what we survived and that we are still moving forward.
Hugs to you and your inner child from mine (my inner child was a bit geeky 🤓 Though is now more loved). hehe
Indy
so sorry HG… some folks are poor parents indeed. I hope that is an insight to you and that you figure out you don’t need her approval, you are good enough on your own. Even if this is a hoover of some kind, even if it is the truth as you experienced it, I freely offer you this fuel of a lil bit of empathy. Her voice alone should not stand above the many you have helped who know you do good and who are proud to read your blog. You are good enough.
Thank you Ali.
you’re most welcome HG. and now I wonder if this blog has one more reason for it to exist…one you might not be aware of as yet… but possibly to early to mention more on that.
HG. That is very very sad. What a horrible individual. How can you get rid of that beast that keeps arriving in your life, as you say trying to catch you out? Whatever has that mother done to her child? Do you think HG you would have been normal if she had not done this? It’s just that you told me before you thought it was partially hereditary.
Well if it helps you, I most certainly appreciate what you are doing and wish you well in life.
I am not out to get the narcs I knew. I understand I cannot fix them so to save myself I have only one option, to leave. What I did find very hard was that I was not loved by the narcs really, as an empath with my own neglect wounds it hurt so much. It made my awakening occur and the voices I hear from my mother are cast aside as trash now.
So you may want it, you may not, but I will offer it anyway. Sending a virtual hug.
Thank you SVR.
Most welcome. Unbelievable. She should not have had children.
SVR – hahahaha “She should not have had children.” translation => HG, you should not have been born! A faux pas?
Dear HG stop blaming others and change your ways pronto. You poor little didums .
I did think that after I wrote thathis but I still posted it as I thought educated people would understand.
Are you being rude? If so I have better things to do with my time than waste them on the likes of you. I do not take to idiots anymore, had enough of them to last me a lifetime.
What a cruel thing to say…
I apologise KT for my previous post. I mistakenly thought you were meaning I was cruel. I hope you can accept my apology.
We know by noWednesday That there Are CRUEL PEOPLE In This World. Take care. Sorry again.
Apology accepted. I was refering to sniglet
KT I am most certainly not cruel. I do not suffer fools gladly anymore. I am not a doormat and I will stand up for myself. You are entitled to your opinion so thank you for sharing it. Take care.
Your existence is a blessing to many Mr. Tudor.
Indeed it is.
Was merely admiring your covfefe style, SVR!
Happy HG Tudor is here with us, suggesting otherwise would be a sin. I have pulled at his pigtails a couple of times, for fuel of course. So in his books I’d qualify as ‘bad’. 😀
Actually, I truly enjoy his body of work tremendously because he is the best at educating everybody about the sharp contrast between the narcissistic and the empathic behavior.
HG, cheers to you – am raising a glass of ‘Sniglet’s Discovery with a Twist’! Thank you! 🙂
Thats good
I know some here will go nuts when I say this, but as usual, I don’t care. This post makes everything in me want to rescue you and face Dr. O with you, tell her to stop and then list all the ways you’ve helped me and others. I know your feelings well. It really doesn’t matter how much approval we get whether genuine or not from the rest of the world when we long for the person in front of us to approve. I try to make up for my mother’s disapproval with other people around me but am left thinking…if they approve of me then why can’t you? Don’t you see how hard I’m trying? I’m sorry, HG. You have thousands of approvals here. That may not soothe you but it really is true.
Thank you 12345.
12345 I wish you an awakening if it has not already happened. Why do we need the approval of that someone that hurts us? They are distasteful beasts themselves. Take care.
HG I know how hard this must of been for you to go through with your therapist! I also know that reliving it as you write your posts to us is also hard for you! I can not write as well as you do, not even close! I wish I could make you understand that little HG now has big HG to protect him! You also have a blog full of supporters that believe in you the way you do us!! You can do this HG! Seize the power that is inside of you and face the creature! You are not alone anymore and neither is that sweet little boy! Xxx
Did this really happen, is my first question….
It did.
It is terrifying experience for you when this happens. I understand why you want and need to keep the “creature” far away from you… it is how you “feel” safe. The physical experience you describe, I can liken to what I experienced as panic attacks. Maybe I’m off base on that presumption. At any rate, amazing write, well done… so very vivid. Thank You for sharing
I thought HG has to tell the truth as one of the rules or am I wrong?