He Doesn’t Bring Me Flowers Anymore


He doesn’t bring you flowers any more. Or chocolates. Or perfume. Or lingerie. Or a new book.

In fact he has stopped bringing you gifts altogether. Why?

A person who is regarded as a suitor will seek to impress the target of their desire with the provision of gifts. These range from the obvious (flowers, jewellery, chocolates) through to the less obvious (the selection of an obscure piece of literature, sponsorship of an animal or an ‘experience’). The pattern of gift giving will not be overwhelming to begin with, it will not be grandiose nor gratuitous. It will not be on the flimsiest of reasons (see the creation of Golden Milestones in The Creation of Unusual Milestones ). It will accord with birthdays, Christmas, achievements by the other person and those ‘just because’ moments (welcome home, I saw this and knew you would love it, I wanted to thank you for your help). The provision of gifts will not just stop. This is for two reasons:-

a. The gift giving is not ‘feast and then famine’ ; and

b. There is a genuine motive behind the giving as opposed to flagrant self-interest

This approach to the provision of gifts of whatever nature applies to the normal individual, the well-adjusted one who is seeking to make a good impression at the outset of a romantic relationship and showing thoughtfulness throughout its existence thereafter. The fact that you once received gifts and then you suddenly do not anymore is a particular red flag with regard to our kind.

The first matter to consider with regard to the relevance of the pattern and nature of gift giving is how that manifests with regard to the school of narcissist. Accordingly,

The Greater Narcissist will provide gifts of superior quality, elegance and calibre. He or she will provide them frequently during the love-bombing and embedding phases of the golden period. The Greater Narcissist will also be easily able to afford these gifts and they will be recognisable as quality offerings without brash ostentation.

The Mid-Range Narcissist is the most prolific giver of gifts during the golden period. He will provide them frequently, often several times a week. If your birthday falls in this golden period, expect him or her to outdo everybody else in terms of the nature of the gift. The Mid-Range Narcissist (especially LMR or MMR) will often exceed their financial capability when engaging in this gift-giving.

The Lesser Narcissist will not engage in much gift-giving at all, save for the Upper Lesser. The LLN or MLN may provide one or two gifts, but little more than that and will be likely to provide you with stolen goods or with gifts obtained using money he or she does not have. The LLN or MLN is likely to be an Indian Giver, even during the Bronze Period (which is the Lesser equivalent of the Golden Period). The Upper Lesser, invariably having significant personal wealth will be a flamboyant and almost over-bearing gift giver. What he or she will provide will be decent but lacking any real thought or imagination.

Thus with these patterns established with regards to the schools, what about the applications of the cadres?

Elite – expect high calibre gifts, often difficult to obtain save through particular connections, thoughtful, interesting and always treasured by the recipient. The nature of the gift will be varied from jewellery through to a signed special edition book through to tickets to an exclusive culinary experience.

Somatic – the Somatic prefers very visible gifts, thus this will amount to large floral displays delivered to your home or more often where you work (so more people see them), clothing and lingerie are key somatic gifts, along with gadgets and technology, tickets to sporting events, competitive events and holidays.

Cerebral – the gifts from the Cerebral cadre will naturally encompass the arts (thus theatre tickets, literature, music, a rare copy of a photograph, a painting and so forth), there may well be an educational bent (you can expect personalised copies of the narcissist’s own works where relevant) and often there is more to them than first meets the eye, as the Cerebral will delight in showing and explaining to you.

Victim – you can expect recycled gifts from the LL and ML Victim Narcissists. Those from Mid Ranger Victim Narcissists will be more likely to be thoughtful and inexpensive and often practical in some respect (since the narcissist will have one eye on making use of it themselves in due course) . Homeware gifts will be common from the Victim Narcissist.

Thus, combining the school and cadre will give you a clear indication of the gift giving patterns and range of the narcissist during the Golden (or Bronze Period). If you recognise these patterns and the nature of the gifts then this is a strong indicator that the person providing you with these gifts belongs to our brethren and you should take heed.

Similarly, a further powerful indicator is the sudden dropping off of the provision of the gifts. This article will only apply itself to the cessation of gift giving and not the shifting to providing rubbish or inappropriate gifts (for that see The Narcissist and Gifts)

The shift from lots of gift giving to nothing is done because it is contrasting behaviour. Contrasting behaviour is a hall mark of our behaviour. Contrasting is done principally to confuse and bewilder you (thus it increases our grip on you) and also to increase the quantity and potency of the fuel. Control and fuel are the prime reasons for engaging in contrasting. You will see contrasting throughout the narcissistic dynamic.

Contrasting will occur with regard to the provision of gifts however you need to have regard to the nature of the narcissist that you suspect (or know) you are dealing with AND your place in the fuel matrix of that narcissist.

Thus, if you receive a lot of gifts and then this suddenly stops then this will be the behaviour of the Greater, Mid Range and Upper Lesser Narcissists. If you are involved with a Lower Lesser or Middle Lesser you are unlikely to see any drop-off in gift provision and therefore you will need to look to other behaviours to support your concerns with regard to suspect narcissism.

Also take into account your status within the fuel matrix.

If you happen to be a tertiary source (although you are highly unlikely to realise you have some kind of involvement with a narcissist if you are a TS) then the cessation of any gift giving is indicative of being devalued.

If you are a Non Intimate Secondary Source, the gift giving will not be as frequent as it is for an Intimate Source. What you need to look out for is not so much the drop-off of gift giving towards you but a drop-off through triangulation. This means that if you are a NISS and you are being devalued it will manifest in you not receiving a gift when other NISSs do. Thus, if you are a NISS family member, other people will receive gifts and you will not. If you are a colleague NISS, your colleagues will receive gifts and you will not, ditto amongst friends. Thus, it is not so much about there being frequent gifts given, but when they are, the other NISSs will receive them and you will not and thus you are triangulated.

If you are an Intimate Partner Secondary Source (Shelf) , you will enjoy the provision of gifts in accordance with the school and cadre as described above and these will continue throughout the golden period. If the gift giving stops when you are not with the narcissist then this is merely representative of your shelf status and is not devaluation. If no gift is provided when you would expect to receive one (birthday, Christmas) even though you are not spending time with the narcissist, this is also not devaluation. You are on the shelf and out of the mind of the narcissist. If however you are spending time with the narcissist and there are no gifts being provided at all, when there once was, then this will be a Corrective Devaluation aimed at bringing you back into line. If this continues for a repeated and extended period then this will part of your Dis-Engagement Devaluation and you will shortly be dis-engaged from.

Finally, if you are the IPPS and the Friday flowers are not being provided, the jewellery has halted, you drop hints about gifts and there is no response (remember there will have needed to have been gift provision during the golden period to create this contrast) then this is a clear act of devaluation.

Essentially, if somebody engages in excessive gift provision and then suddenly stops doing so, this is a strong indicator that you are with one of our kind and you are in devaluation. It also means that someone else is now likely to be receiving the gifts that you once cherished.



53 thoughts on “He Doesn’t Bring Me Flowers Anymore”

  1. I got a fake flower pulled out frm behind him while he was on his knees in front of me (i thought it was so romantic), and a future faked gift that never materialized. Ugh!

  2. Spot on, as usual, HG. Exact descriptions of gifts given by both of the narcs we’ve discussed recently. Wow.

  3. I do not care about receiving jewellery and other expensive gifts… many men have no talent for selecting something nice, they just don’t… so, I do not want to cause them any stress, roaming the shops in a mad frenzy to get me ‘something’… and I do not want to have to pretend that I like the gift if I don’t, because I’d fail miserably at that kind of game, and would not want to hurt their feelings. On rare occasions, when something shiny and sparkly excites me, I buy it myself. That way, I also ensure it’s mine for good.

    What I DO care about however, is appreciation and time spent together… and that does not cost much, if anything at all… going for a stroll together, dinner somewhere nice, attending a concert etc… would have been very happy with occasional gestures of appreciation.

    I feel that as soon as you’re classed ‘low maintenance’, their efforts are decreasing quickly… and that hurts quite a bit… also considering that you are putting much thinking and planning into your gifts to them. Perhaps I am doing something wrong, perhaps I should demand more… but what good would it do? I do not want to be given gifts just because he thinks he *has* to do it, that ruins the entire spirit and purpose of gift giving.

  4. My parents never gave me personal gifts which I cherished, or does a latin dictionary count? It was my grandparents who payed for our christmas gifts and who gave me cherished gifts, like a necklace with a heart for my birth and my first teddy bear.
    My parents didn’t exchange real gifts either.

    Is it a form of abuse to give presents that have nothing to do with the receiver?

  5. I used to get a lot of gifts. Within the first few weeks, I got an iPad because he didn’t like that I used my iPod (“it’s too small”). He got me pretty much everything I said looked nice when we were out and about. We also stayed in some very expensive hotels, had some very expensive meals, etc. The last time I saw him (LDR for those who don’t know), I had some presents for him. This was because I hadn’t seen him in a while and the things accumulated. It was nothing to write home about really, mainly just chocolate. Anyway, when I gave the stuff to him he said “awww you shouldn’t have gotten me anything”. He got me nothing aside from something I told him to bring me and which was like £4. I got nothing for my last birthday, nothing for Christmas, in fact nothing for the last year of the relationship at least.

  6. Text book. A very expensive gift within weeks then a bunch more thought the years however only to make him look good. Now whenI know the truth about his finances I understand the concept of narcissists (some) and money. The entitlement to always have the nicest and most expensive items while not paying the bills. Shopaholic and many financial breakdowns … now his accounts are empty, in large debts and loosing his house as we speak…. again! But what the hell why not just go on a lavish summer vacation on top of that!

    I gave twice as much and today I’m picking up the pieces of my life and he is keeping some of the things for a later “hoover” I assume. Don’t want it … the only thing I wanted was love, respect and thank you for all I was doing for him…. Now she can take over the impossible role to understand what the hell is doing on in that twisted mind.

    Today I get my own gifts … and only when I know I can afford them.

  7. Also when we talked about his NPD, yes he did admit it, and I knew he was seeing a shrink. He asked me to keep the jewlery as they were bought for me and one day I might forgive him and enjoy them and wear them.
    I do not forgive him, I just do not care about him.

    I also think he had a very strange relationship with his sister. A bit close.

  8. I received jewelry from the Narc. Unicorn brooches , one vintage, one from the NY museum gift shop (he went with his sister) and a 14k gold one. All were for my birthday. I still have them and I will wear them. Short lived relationship.
    I have received many gifts from cars to vacation homes. I have been spoiled.

  9. What IF:

    We could write to all the narcs in our lives to let them know that they are narcs?

    The letter came from a unknown source?

    HG, decides if the letters would help or hinder our healing?

    You could write without censoring your words?

    You could write without walls?

    The cost were less than consultation?

    You could release emotionally once you hit the send button?

    It will bring some sense of closure?

    What If? We have the audacity to have higher expectations after being entangled with a NPD person?

    We all found our true purpose in life?

    We can see the experience as a gift to other?

    We buried the narc and all the mental luggage?

    We bought our own flowers?

    We paid someone else to carry that luggage?

    I told you, I have been banned from this site and have written the most nonsensical post
    ( unreleased/ released) due to my entanglement with these types.

    “I am trying to fit in any high school s clique.”

    I believe the guy who killed his wife on the Alaska Cruise because she kept laughing is a narc. Many have killed their mistress, side chick, or lovers who failed to abort pregnancies.

    The Facebook live shooter may have been or may have not been a narc but entangled with one. Her response after he shot that man live and gave her name was he’s a good guy. I believe he was.

    I don’t take this lightly, maybe I am becoming extremely paranoid.

    HG, and others say 123 and ABC are narc traits and then we say but hmmm. This comment doesn’t fit every situation. But, for other’s we need other options to letgo.

    I would like to write a letter on confidence and allow you to decide if they should be sent anonymously for a small fee. Lol, we can assist because we are located internationally. HG, can choose recipients I nominate SW for mine or his own minions.

    What If?

  10. My narc was cheap but i didnt care. I dont place importance on gifts but what a man does for me. He did sweet thoughtful things its just too bad he changed other aspects of the relationship.

  11. He was cheap and the only present I ever got from him was a refrigerator magnet and a shot glass. 😜


  12. Dear Mr Tudor,
    My friend would give 13 red roses to any female. I asked the reason why, he’d emphasise , “13 is friendship, 12 is love”. I asked… ” what do you then give to someone special, if everyone gets the same” … total blank look on his face. When I said Roses are not my favourite, he went into meltdown!
    He only ever bought discounted items, (roses included) like chocolates, gift baskets and cheap bubbles because he was always on a budget and begrudged spending on family and sundry, except himself. He did buy me a mini bottle of Moët and my favourite flowers once after I did him an enormous favour. He boasted he had bought me my favourite bottle of wine for my birthday, (I didn’t believe him) he didn’t give it to me on the day, as I was on the downhill slide at that time. I asked for my present when I had to return some items (he actually had bought it). As I gave cheers to his ill health, I discarded the empty bottle and his card in the bin. Haha
    Your article suggests he’s a victim narcissist, however, he’s also very cunning, strategic and sharp as a tack.
    Cheers Mr Tudor

  13. First time I sent this it just disappeared. Hope you dont get it twice.

    I realize there are exceptions to every rule, and I’m sure my exhusband considers himself exceptional, but he never gave any gifts for the first 40 years of our relationship. And not just no gifts to me, he didn’t give any to anyone. He doesn’t seem to want to waste his time shopping. He’s always considered gifts unimportant.

    In the last few years he will give someone else money to buy a gift for themselves or a third party, but he never hides the fact that he did not pick it out. In fact he surprised me this week with an unexpected gift. Our daughter asked him to buy something for her. He told her to get me one too if I wanted. Surprisingly thoughtful for him.

    Best I can tell, he is a lower greater cerebral.

    1. My ex never got any gifts for his parents who live in a different country. Not even when he went to see them for Christmas. His mother always had things for him when he visited. He was ungrateful of course. At one point, I told him that I find it extremely weird and rude that he never gets anything for his parents – especially since they always have several gifts for him and his mum sends him parcels every couple of months. From then on, he started to get them things but always struggled a lot to find something. It was usually me who thought of things he could get for them, and who reminded him to get them things, or that it’s Mother’s Day, etc.

      1. Anonymous
        The narcs I’ve known were horrible at picking out gifts. Of course sometimes they get crappy gifts on purpose as a manipulation, but I think most of them just suck at picking out gifts because of their lack of empathy. If you think about it, great gifts are things you really want but wouldn’t have gotten yourself. Narcs can never really know what we want. They don’t have that insight into our thinking and ways we’re unique or different. At the best they get generic gifts like jewelry or flowers that they think all woman like. At worst they just pick up something cheap last minute at the dollar store that we’d never want in a million years. But of course we’re supposed to really appreciate it regardless because they went to the trouble to give us something.

  14. Never received any. Mid range never bothered and Greater promised many gifts but to date I have not seen a single one. It’s just the way he says it and the way he composes it in his messages – the charisma and charm – I feel like I’ve had many from him when I’ve not actually had any. Some sort of brainwashing? Didn’t even get a birthday wish. I like the article HG wrote on birthdays. That’s exactly what happened with mine.

    1. Hello ABL, there is not a specific book on the issue of contrasting behaviour but Manipulated, Fuel, Fury and Devil’s Toolkit all have significant information appertaining to this which will be of considerable use and interest to you.

      1. Thank you. I will be doing a private consult one of these days soon, as well. My reluctance comes from the awareness I will have to admit to myself at the time I am writing to you and also the knowledge of you reading it and thinking I’m crazy! Too funny how that matters to me. Soon! 🙂

  15. Again, you have me thinking, HG: “How did you know that?”! 😉 My oldest female friend not only bombarded me with her endless self-pitying letters, but also with lots of the strangest gifts, self-made (from recycled materials) or from flea markets and 2nd hand shops. Only from England she brought me a bought Celtic brooch.
    Those strange gifts drove me crazy, left much open for interpretation what she meant by them and yes, they sometimes stopped.

    Is it coincidence that I have often thought that presents showed me that the giver didn’t know me at all?!!?

  16. Midrange Cerebral was the most extravagant. He would plan dinners at the most lavish fine dining places, and drop of rare exotic flowers beforehand to be arrange at our table before I got there. Before I let him, I was a party girl who drank shots of vodka. He had me drinking fine wine and schooled me on the finer things. He shortly moved into MY condo and had me paying for everything. And like a cerebral, the sex stopped.

  17. I never really got gifts there was no golden period just the controlling the monster periods. Birthdays we were split up. He was generous at Christmas with nice gifts .
    I got a bunch of flowers once from Sainsbury’s petrol station , that was just an impromptu gift and he was very pleased with himself about that and mentioned them regularly . It’s uncanny how you know these details HG, he was always giving me stuff that he got free, usually nicked or cheap stuff he got from work, like a fake designer bag and some house hold bits, let me list them because it’s bloody hilarious when I think about it
    Boxes of tissues
    Some baby wipes
    A jar of jam
    A few bottles of wine that he did not pay for .
    I got nothing for valentines I did not see him but he posted a card through my door ( just posted it) didn’t knock despite me being home at the time lol
    The strange thing is he lives quite a frugal life and saves money and yet anything that we did like going out socially he always paid and was not at all mean with money in that way.

  18. Very interesting read. I’m surprised you wrote Lower/Mid Lessers do not gift as much. My experience was just the opposite. That was actually my introduction into narc relationships. I received a lot of gifts (mostly jewelry). Of course, my lessers did not have the money to afford any of them… So how they could lavish me with such gifts was a mystery. And they never would answer my questions of how. I was expected to thank them and ask no further. Otherwise, I would ignite their fury.

  19. In my 40+ years, I have nothing to show for a gift received as a part of courting or milestone during marriage.
    When dating my ex-husband in college, he charged any gifts he got me back then and didn’t pay the balances off prior to our wedding like he said. Nine months in, debt collectors started calling. I got those paid off. I almost broke up with him due to the deceit but was afraid my family would feel shame over an annulment. Then a few times after that for Christmas usually, he would buy a ring or necklace on credit at Kay’s or Zale’s, and then I’d have to figure out how to budget and pay off the balances when the statements started rolling in after the holidays. I finally forbid him to do that. I basically started budgeting my gifts out of my Xmas bonus from work and give x amount of dollars to him to shop and not go over. Problem solved.
    JN never got me one single thing.
    One man I dated before JN for about 6 months did treat me to a few nice things but he got back with his ex girlfriend and I was immediately ghosted. It was nice though but I was uncomfortable with it not being used to someone treating me to something free and clear.
    I’m the one who comes up with great gift ideas for family and friends. I have no expectation for it to be done for me by a guy.

    1. Clarece,

      I’m the same way (referring to your last paragraph).

      I’m working on getting better at taking and just receiving … overall.

      1. The older you get and if it’s all you’ve known, it’s about impossible to not feel uncomfortable with gifts from men without feeling there is alterior motives or baggage that will come with it. I do fine with long standing friends and family. Probably even more appreciative of the gesture when someone does something for me, but I don’t trust it now from another man.

        1. Well Clarece, based on this article HG wrote about gifts, I doubt any of us should feel at ease if a man wants to give us gifts!

          Thinking about you and sending you positive energy today! Focus on things you enjoy and rooting for Cleveland. Not talking to JN will mean a lot more to you in the long run than it will mean to him. Stay strong! ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️❤️

          1. Thank you Windstorm2. It seemed to bother JN last year when I didn’t contact him on his birthday. Tribe beat the Sox last night and hopefully they win again today. It’ll put me in the Sixth sphere for sure. But I have a busy day planned with a girlfriend who moved back to IL after being gone for 2 years. She will not let me cave with JN today.
            As far as gifts from men, I think I’d be more comfortable with getting a shared experience (like tickets to a concert or the ballet) rather than a tangible item now.
            How is your daughter and grand baby doing?

          2. Hey Clarece!
            Glad you have fun plans with a friend today!
            My daughter and baby are doing fine. I think my daughter’s learning it’s harder to bounce back from your 4th one in just over 5 years. I certainly feel useful out here. I’ll be really glad to go home though. I really miss my privacy and freedom. My daughter is a fairly domineering person and I’m not very good at following rules! 😉

            I volunteer as a teachers aide at the school where I used to teach. School begins next week and I’ve had teachers texting that they already miss me. I’ll probably need to be here another two weeks though, till my daughter’s back to her feisty self. I want to get back to Kentucky definitely before the eclipse, though. This part of Kansas isn’t in the path of totality. Can’t miss a total eclipse!

            I’m a baseball fan, too. My exhusband lived in Cleveland for a time as a child and is a fan of the Tribe. My daughter and son in law are fanatical Twins fans. I’ve always preferred the Cubs. I love an underdog!

            Have a great day!

          3. Hi Clarece , I know it’s hard , I’ve felt terrible all weekend knowing it’s his 50th birthday and wondering what he’s doing . But ignoring someone and not acknowledging them is the ultimate insult to anyone , never mind these sick individuals that depend on other people’s decent behaviour to feed their abusive ways . Your doing good . Do not contact him . Xx

          4. It really is the ultimate insult for me to ignore someone’s birthday because birthdays are my thing. Unlike a national holiday, it’s a way to celebrate someone’s existence just for popping out into this world and make it like a unique holiday for them. So I feel like I’m letting someone down not acknowledging it. I have to keep reminding myself why on earth I wouldn’t want to wish JN a Happy Birthday. It’s a reflection of him not me. Sounds ridiculous! Lol

    2. I’m the same Clarece, I love buying thoughtful gifts for my family & friends. I never got gifts from my ex husband and learned not to expect anything. On my birthday he would say ‘ I didn’t get you anything because you wouldn’t be happy anyway ‘. But that’s not true, I would be grateful with anything.

      Talking about gifts…
      My 10 years old son asked to be taken to my favourite shop and he bought me a beautiful photo frame with his pocket money.
      The lady offered him a nice gift wrap and asked him if it’s for someone special to which he replied
      ‘ Yes , it’s for my mum ‘.

      Made my day.😊💞

      1. That is precious! Same here with lots and lots of homemade presents and cards and even thoughtful gifts when a relative takes my daughter shopping for my B-Day or Christmas. I really get blown away.

  20. I know there are exceptions to every rule, and I’m sure my exhusband would agree that he is exceptional, but he never gave me any gifts at all. Basically for the first 40 years of our relationship – nothing. He would not object if I bought myself birthday and Christmas gifts, but he considered any gift buying beneath him, like an unimportant triviality he could not be bothered with. And not just for me, but for everyone.

    In recent years he can always be counted on to contribute money, as long as someone else buys the gift. He actually surprised me with a gift two days ago, but it was telling our daughter that if I expressed interest in something she was wanting for herself to buy me one and he would reimburse her. He never brings or hands the gifts to the recipient himself, either. Often he just says, “You buy it and I’ll give you the money.” That’s the closest he has ever come to gift giving and that only in the last few years.

    He is a lower greater cerebral, at least that’s what he seems.

      1. Snow White
        Thanks! She’s doing fine. 2 1/2 weeks now. Not bad colicky yet, hopefully she won’t be. She calms when I hold her and seems to prefer Spanish flamenco guitar music. 💃

        It like a houseful of monkeys here! The other 3 kids (5,3 and 1) are full of energy and very challenging. Luckily my daughter is a strong willed, very organized person. If it was just me here with them I’d spend a lot of time sitting in a corner in tears! 😄

        The one year old is a sweetheart. She’s shown her empathy since birth. She often comes up and kisses me, smiles and pats my arm, just to be sweet. She loves her baby sister.

        Hope all is well with you! Back to school yet? Mine starts next week. My team (7 teachers) is already stressed out, coming apart and some in tears. They all say they miss me. I’m the comic relief and spreader of oil upon the waters. Guess I’ll be going from one monkey house to another. Good thing Im comfortable living in a zoo!!

  21. Interesting article……the “greater” analysis is spot on, however the last one I knew, I thought was mid range but now I am not sure…….never bought me one thing at any stage although he had money and had no trouble spending it on himself…….but that did not bother me………helped with “odd jobs” though and volunteered to fix things but did not always follow through…..talked a good job but it never materialised……I remember saying…….I expect nothing from you apart from disappointment………that way I was never truly disappointed!!!!! You have to find the humour in this……..it’s the only way to cope…….whatever he was….mid range or lesser….that one did not last too long with me!!!!!

  22. The greater will give you the best gifts for certain. For instance a Herend large snow leopard for $3,170.00 US dollars. That very same greater will have no problem at all breaking that very same Herend large snow leopard that cost him $3,170.00 US dollars when you’ve made him angry. He will have no problem breaking the entire collection he bought for you. The gifts don’t mean shit and can be taken away just as quickly as they were given.

      1. My greater narc used to keep a hand written detailed list of everything he had bought me and I mean everything, even birthday and Christmas presents. This list would be produced every so often, waved under my nose and the total would be amended. I used to say……anything that is really worth having can not be bought……,I don’t think he had any idea what I meant or if he did he never replied.

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