The Support Forum Fraud
There are many online support forums that exist with regard to the issue of narcissism and narcissistic abuse.
I have previously moved amongst the shadows of these blogs, Facebook sites, Twitter pages and so forth, observing and absorbing the behaviours that I have witnessed. There are those which provide information. Others are the cathartic disclosures of victims who are seeking to warn as well as recount their own horrors alongside their journey or recovery. There are others which are there to assist people in healing from the trauma they have suffered. The quality and reliability of them varies. Amidst the proliferation of support forums lurk our kind.
There is no doubt that our kind inhabit these places. Indeed, from time to time Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have appeared and frequented my blog. Easy for me to spot, but less so for others. Naturally, narcissists appear at other sites and forums, commenting and interacting. Those narcissists will gain some fuel from the interaction with the people on that forum, but more specifically they will look to befriend a fellow commenter or two and take their interaction off blog and onto private messaging, the telephone, Skype and ultimately meeting in person. The Tertiary Source becomes a secondary source and the provision of fuel increases in potency, quantity and frequency. A separate article will cover that type of interaction.
The narcissist also operates on these support forums in a different capacity ; that of moderator, administrator or host.
How does this manifest?
First of all, if a Greater operates such a forum then he or she will be open about the fact, confirm what they are and explain much about the way we think and operate. These sites are extremely rare. Greaters are very rare and those which operate sites similar to mine are even rarer. However, those that do exist make it clear what the site is and who is operating it. This rarity and the common misunderstanding that all narcissists do not know what they are, leads some people to regard such sites in a mistaken manner.
Secondly, a Lesser would not operate such a forum. He or she has no idea what he or she is and being utterly devoid of empathy (including cognitive empathy), it would never occur to the Lesser to devise such a site. They have no interest in appearing as a saintly figure and they have no desire to listen to the woes of others. The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.
Thirdly, it is the Mid-Ranger who poses the problem with regard to the creation and running of these forums. Why the Mid-Ranger? Again, he or she does not know what she is but these sites appeal to them because:-
- They are able to engage in their façade management. The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person. It is other people who are the horrible, abusive narcissists. Not them.
- The site gives them an excellent vehicle to sound off about their own perceived mis-treatment. The Mid Ranger loves a good Pity Party, Compassion Conference or Sympathy Symposium and those that interact with these people buy into this.
- It enables them to continue a campaign against those the Mid Range Narcissist perceives as the abuser. Thus the ex-girlfriend, the parents, the boss or the once upon a time best friend, all find themselves routinely smeared and the validation that the site’s readers provides to the Mid Range Narcissist only goes to consolidate in their minds that they are a good person and that they are truly the victim.
The Mid Ranger is the narcissist who you will find operating these forums (or fora if you prefer) . Of course not all of the online support forums are operated by our kind, far from it, but there is a noticeable presence by our kind. Indeed, I have had many of my readers express their concerns and suspicions about certain sites and their provenance, based on their experiences there and what they have witnessed.
This is difficult for people to recognise. They will have some familiarity naturally with the idea of narcissism, since why else are they at a narcissist abuse support forum?! However, it is highly likely that their skills have not yet become attuned to recognising our kind and certainly not this particular wolf in sheep’s clothing.
What then are the indicators which show that a narcissist is operating the site (or is involved as a moderator or administrator)? Based on what I have witnessed at certain sites, you should be aware of the following
- Invalidation. The subject of narcissism is both emotive and complex and therefore people have various experiences, opinions and theories. Some may simply be incorrect. Some may be based on a misunderstanding. Some however remain valid because that is the experience of the individual. The Support Forum Fraud (“SFF”) will reject out of hand the experience of the reader or commenter if it disagrees with, is at odds with or contradicts something stated by the SFF. Rather than recognising a difference of opinion, or politely explaining why the reader’s view is mistaken, the SFF will be dismissive.
- Aggressive. If the reader holds their ground with the SFF then they will be treated in an aggressive fashion. The reader is not insulting or provocative and merely states their view. They are treated to an aggressive response from the SFF. This is the manifestation of the MRN’s ignited fury. They will be told they know nothing, that they are being ridiculous, that the SFF knows far better and reminded that the SFF operates the forum.
- Labelling. The SFF will label the reader as an abuser or as a narcissist. I have seen this happen on many occasions and is a rapid dose of projection designed to put down, invalidate and insult the reader.
- The Labelling also has a further effect. It acts as a call to arms to other readers to launch into an attack against the hapless reader. The SFF expects their readership to gang up on this ‘narcissist’ and tell them what they are and drum them from the forum. Who are those who respond to this clarion call of the SFF? They belong to two groups ; other narcissists and mis-guided victims. The former group of course do not know what they are. The Lessers will see it as an excellent opportunity for some verbal abuse provocation. The Mid Rangers will see it as a chance to curry favour with the host and demonstrate their own credentials as a ‘good’ person. The Mis-Guided Victims (often newbies) are still very hurt by their experience and their inexperience and current world view causes them to lash out at someone who they have mistakenly seen as a narcissist. It is an easy mistake for them to make, after all, they are still learning and the supposed guru of the host has declared this person to be a narcissist, so it must be true. There will be those, those who are more experienced and empathic who will defend the reader, recognising they are not a narcissist and that the person is entitled to express their opinion. They will be set on also and therefore this often causes others to avoid the fray to begin with.
- The host will engage in repeated recollections of their own horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. It will be like a daily sermon as they rail against this person with a zealous enthusiasm which lasts for far too long for that of a genuine victim.
- The host having identified a supposed narcissist on the site will not let the matter go. If the reader remains (or is allowed to remain) on the site, they will be repeatedly branded and subjected to passive aggressive remarks. Even once gone or banished, they will be made mention of by the SFF.
- The SFF will also make repeated reference to their “online attackers” or their “trolls” in order to gain sympathy from readers. These supposed attackers remain vague and amorphous in identity because they often do not exist, but they are a perception of the SFF.
- The SFF will dole out the Pity Plays in order to gain the sympathy and support of their readers. Whilst they will repeatedly make mention of how badly they have been treated by the ‘narcissist’ they were ensnared by, they will also make such comments as “I don’t why I bother doing this at times” and “I am sick of not being appreciated” and “some of you have no idea how much effort this takes”.
- Waterworks. If the SFF uses videos on the site or has a YouTube presence then the crocodile, self-pitying tears will flow. Those whose tears are genuine either will not post material containing them (they do not want people to see or regard it as unprofessional) or if they do it is clear it is genuine. The SFF’s waterworks will be forced as they summon up the tears. They will switch them on and off like the flicking of the switch. Once you know what to look for, you will see them.
- There is a lack of originality in the material. The SFF can only pose as the supposed empathic supporter of the abused not through actual experience or emotional empathy but through mimicry. Accordingly, the material that is placed on the site will be drawn from elsewhere. Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.
- There will be passive aggressive comments made towards the commenters and readers. Again, this is not always obvious to newcomers, but those with experience will soon spot this indicator and allied with points above the picture becomes clear.
- Sudden blocking. A reader will find themselves blocked from the site without any explanation or understanding as to what they have done. This passive aggressive response will arise because the SFF has perceived some behaviour of the reader which is unacceptable and thus wounded, has lashed out with this cold fury by providing a Silent Treatment.
Over time, the aggregate of these behaviours will demonstrate the true nature of the person operating the site and you will then realise just who is really behind the supposed caring, empathic persona.
You may have found yourself on the receiving end of such behaviour previously. Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?
494 thoughts on “The Support Forum Fraud”
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HG
I think it only fair to point out that there are not only two camps as some tend to categorize. Just because a comment is not wholly empathic does not mean that it is narcissistic. People dont seem to have a problem with others commenting or label it as interferring as long as it is commiserating with them. They suck that shit right up all day long with no limit to the number of posts they will accept. Just an observation.
And I haven’t gone anywhere other than here for a while now. I had been all over those other sites and I can tell you:
I was following one guy whose ONLY subject was his ex narc girlfriend. He received many, many responses of pity for all he’d gone through. I began to think he was more interested in smearing her, than helping others. It took me months to figure that out. I used to fall asleep listening to his “advice.”
Then there are the many females who have nothing original to say.
Then there’s Mr. Vankin, whom I can’t quite pin down and find a little boring, but truthful about what he is.
Then I found an Aussie, who I believe is not a narcissist and is entertaining and interesting as well. No pity plays. No narc tricks. And good advice — from a victim.
I was really tired of commiseration at that point. I was looking for something different. I wasn’t progressing, in fact I was becoming more and more obsessed thinking of ex narc.
Then I found the TRUTH from the Greater’s mouth! The voice was mesmerizing, but the truth even more so.
Then I found his wonderful blog, which addressed the many facets of narcissism.
Then the books! Oh, the books. They really opened my eyes and actually got me over ex narc.
You’re dead right Tudor the Great. Why go anywhere else?
Still waiting on you to advise me, even briefly, conserving your energy of course, about a really bothersome stage in which I seem to be quite stuck: I’m over ex narc, but I’m so attracted to your down and dirty, honest, and abrasive truthfulness and cocky hegemony (your word) I wonder if I’m leaving myself open for another narcissist to enter my life.
I should not be upvoting many of your quips. They are quite narc-y at times. Why am I attracted to narciness?
I feel like an addict who is over her drug of choice, but is still attracted to being high. Any books or posts on the subject. Any bit of insight?
I don’t want to go down that road again.
“Why am I attracted to narciness? I feel like an addict who is over her drug of choice, but is still attracted to being high. Any books or posts on the subject.”
Mistynolan01 and HG,
I would appreciate any info on this as well.
See Exorcism and Sitting Target.
Thank you, Greater One.
I read Sitting Target, HG, (along with most of your books) and it talks about what draws narcissists to empaths and how to change ourselves so that we are not basically sitting targets. I read Exorcism, which got me over the narc with whom I was involved. My problem now is why I feel attracted to you and I know you are a narc. I have even asked myself if I am living vicariously through your blog because it is safe to do so.
I’ve given this more thought, in the wake of avoiding a man who has been in hot pursuit of me for a year. I began to notice that he uses words which betray a one-track mind, mainly focused on fucking, which did not turn me on. He offered to “pay bills” and to take me shopping at high end stores. Ugh.
I also figured out that he’s not higher-functioning (again, the one-track mind thing). Just yesterday saw him in Whole Foods. Again, same conversation. It occurred to me to ask him the question which is supposed to reveal whether one is a narcissist.
So, I asked him what he would change about himself if he could. His answer? He said he was happy with himself just like he was.
He said he has a great body; is happy with the size of his penis and considers himself attractive because he has been told so. He mentioned that he earns good money in his business.
So, I clarified That I was speaking of character, personality, values. Again, he said he was perfectly satisfied.
Narc exposed! And I’m totally turned off and not attracted at all.
BUT, I believe if he’d possessed more substance and was more interesting — a greater, for instance — I may have been susceptible.
I find you very intriguing, and admire that you’re higher-functioning. I also know that you are cruel, cold and calculating and unapologetically manipulative. Yet …
I know that DBT won’t and hasn’t helped me with this attraction to narcs of your ilk. Intellectually I know I deserve better.
I’m in the process of seeking a therapist who specializes in narcissism, to speak with one-on-one. I feel so hopeless right now. Like I only have two choices: be alone for the rest of my life, or fuck around and find myself the victim of a Greater.
Your blog is very helpful, but I’m so fucked up, I’m beyond reach.
I’ll stop now. I’m crying all over my keyboard.
Hi MistyNolan01,
I nearly spit my coffee laughing when I read you were in Whole Foods while he was discussing how happy he was with his penis size. Was this in the dried meat section or the organic bath salts section (winks).
You are correct saying that DBT will not keep you from attracting or being attracted to Narcissists. That is one of the reasons why I am here, to learn more from HG. Now, some of the DBT skills on how to set and keep boundaries and working toward increasing self respect by saying “no” more will help you manage those that try your boundaries, including narcissists, but it is only a tiny piece. I am grateful for being here.
Haven’t finished reading this but had to say when you shortened “support forum fraud” to “SFF” it suddenly hit me. I may be wrong, but you always say that narcs conserve their energy, so I’m thinking that your heavy use of acronyms is a demonstration of that conservation of energy. I find it intriguing how true to yourself you are.
OK. I’ve played psychologist for a few seconds. Now back to reading.
Correct. It saves my fingers.
I am enjoying reading your blog and have a question. I promised to buy some reading material for a friend who needs help with a narc husband. She isn’t online so which books would be most suitable. I assume Evil would be a good title and any other essentials please? The narcissist is a shy type, pity play but not obvious and also lazy doesn’t work the bad back syndrome and other various exagerrated conditions.
Hello Geraldine, I am pleased you are enjoying reading my work. In terms of the books which are available as paperbacks, I would recommend Manipulated, Sex and the Narcissist, Fuel, Fury, No Contact, Escape and Exorcism.
HG I am glad you posted this. There are some people on your site that constantly attack other people. Well one person in particular. I had my suspicion about them and then noticed they seem to attack a lot of other people after my encounter with them. I stumbled on this by mistake. Makes sense now.
Indeed SF and I’m well aware and allow the posting of certain of their posts so people can see the dynamic. I don’t think everyone has worked it out yet though
Am i that person?
I think i have worked it out! 🙋
Maybe… 😆
Am i allowed to say who it is?😁
It wud create much drama and excitement on narcsite.com! This place has it all!! 😀
If you feel bold.
Is it hg’s number 1 fan and emotion detective? The tension rises…
What do you think Jenna?
Yes.
Who? Tell us, tell us! 😃
You should be able to work it out if you have been paying attention.
FYI, I wouldn’t say anything to them. Or do anything worse than possibly annoying them with questions. (Though if they are not self aware, I am unsure if doing so would be productive.) I’m just looking to satisfy my curiosity. 🤗
Wait…is it HG Tudor’s #1 fan?
No.
I do not believe I am that person that the girl with my favorite name, is referring to. I’m a realist and not candy cotton fluff.
I could be that person AH OH. I am not cotton candy though. I am more like poison ivy berry.
HG
Oh dear. Is it me that people are trying to work out as a Narc? If you confirm I promise to accept it. Lesser and Mids never accept it though so that would make me a Greater……
Ha ha no not you
who is it HG? I think it is INDY. Noooo Just messing with you Indy! You are one of my favs. I have a couple few and at times it changes. But you are one that I appreciate. You and NA and 1j1 and at times when she does not give me a tooth ache, MLA. FT was cool too. And my very fav is Dragon Keeper.
Man I feel like I am in romper room with my magic mirror.
WHO IS THE NARC? I am dying to know.
Hahaha Ah Oh! I knew my name would make it in there. I’ve got my narky side. No shame (I know you’re playing). Always enjoy hearing from you and your spicyness💋🤗
Ah, I think I have it! Hmmm…. 🤔
Oh, nope, I don’t.
Your initials are the same as Support Forum, lol. I recently started reading this blog again after awhile of not reading it. I posted pretty much the same as what you said, above. I was dealing w/ a lot of pain and hurt over my situation – and trying to get my heart in agreement w/ my head, as my head had figured it all out but I did feel reprimanded on this site, so just avoided this blog for awhile. Sir Tudor NEVER made me feel that way – funny as he’s the most Narkiest Narc. He really does handle the site and all of us extremely well and professionally. Thank you, Sir Tudor!! Not that the responses were wrong. They did speak truth but didn’t get what I and some others were saying, and their tone was anything but helpful. I’ve not been on much lately, is it fair to ask who in particular you are speaking of? Just so hurting, vulnerable empaths are aware and not hurt more by some remarks? I don’t suppose Sir Tudor would list whom he thinks are narcs in this group? Either way, it all comes around – to narcs everywhere. I firmly believe that and see it happen. You wouldn’t believe how it all has come down on the psychopath I was involved with. On that note, I realize that he is a psychopath. From what some other psychopaths have said, they are different than narcissists. Some say psychopaths aren’t narcs at all. So what I’ve learned from this site may not help fully in dealing w/ him. But I know I’m at the point, that he’s not worth wasting time figuring out anymore. Regardless of what he is, it’s all.
And some of you bring me much joy in your comments. Love is one of them. I can’t remember all the names. Maybe it’s Love, but one who has a “crush” on Sir Tudor and is off chasing butterflies, etc. I also like Dr. Harleen ….,, E.B. sorry if I can’t list all of you as I’m tired and not thinking deep right now. But thank you, all you who are a blessing, for you kind, thoughtful, understanding ones. I’m sorry for all the hurt you’ve gone through. And anyone with cruel hearts/thoughts here, God will be your judge and I’ll let Him deal with you. I pray you find how much He cares for you and loves you and can change you. Not talking about religion as religion is man reaching God, I’m talking about relationship, in God reaching man with the purest, most understanding love you’ll ever find. From all this I learned it doesn’t pay to not follow Him. He never steers wrong.
Regardless of what he is, it’s all “bad”, is what I was writing. Somehow “bad” didn’t show up.
Thank you Question/Exclamation Mark. There is no point me stating who the narcissists are because by their very nature they will not accept it, however over and beyond that is the fact that there is far more value in you readers applying what you have learned here to do your own assessment and to work it out.
“Thank you Question/Exclamation Mark” – 😂😂😂
I’m dying!!
???!!
I am glad to see your back!
Why thank you, Twilight. I’m trying to forget it all, and forget him, but it’s a struggle. How are you doing?
???!!
I am doing great! Thank you for asking, he he getting into a little bit of trouble at the moment.
I do understand, baby steps an you will get there.
Hi Twilight, what trouble doth he get into?
Hi ???!!
I was laughing, I kicked a hornets nest, figuratively speaking.
Indy,
Since I was a teenager I always had “back up bitches” and other options and I was so miserable in my last relationship I ran out without any.
Yeah, nothing turns me on anyone to be honest with you. I wanna be interested in dating but I’m not. I’m asexual … I’m like a plant.
It takes A LOT to catch my attention and to hold it. Nothing seems to catch my attention and I’m not prepared to waste my time dating one disappoint after another. I don’t have the emotionally energy – I get irritable and can’t even pretend to wanna listen to what they have to say and I have no tolerance for the way these men try to treat me. I dead that shit so fast their fucking head spins…
If someone were to get my attention I would be thrilled and I wouldn’t let them go.
I’m hoping someone comes along butbim not actively seeking in this sea of shit.
It disgusts me.
Hello HG, I hope this question isn’t something you’ve covered before …I searched your site and didn’t come up with anything. I apologize if it’s a topic that has been addressed somewhere and I’ve missed it … but I have spoken to other surviours recently about how the teachings of law of attraction kept us in our toxic relationships longer than we probably would have due to the dogma they preach. Basically in a nut shell LOA teaches that if you have it in your vibration you attract it. End of story. Murder death abuse marriage children money everything. Putting the onus of everything good or bad on to the individual. And I know I’m not the only one who has believed for years and still do somewhat that I attracted the narcs into my life because of my vibration and my quantum negative thinking. Therefore believing I must change my thinking and my vibration to change my relationship. No laughing old boy 😉 Anyway just a thought. Cheers
S
Hello Shantily, thank you for your observation. I would kick those principles about the Law Of Attraction through the nearest window.
IN a nut shell,
1. Your empathic, class and special traits attract our kind;
2. Your own imprinting and/or the targeting/seduction of the narcissist means you fall for our own kind
3. The methodology of the abuse keeps you paralysed and under our control.
The fact you attracted the attention of the narcissist is nothing to do with your “vibration” or your “quantum negative thinking” it is because you have certain traits and one of our kind picked up on them. You need not change your vibration ( you cannot change your traits) , but rather understand what you are dealing with, counter that and ensure your emotional thinking is brought under control.
The only vibrations you need be concerned about are those mentioned by Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch.
Lmao at your last line, HG. The rest is sobering, and no I haven’t been drinking
Glad you liked it 1jaded1.
It’s such a good vibration
It’s such a sweet sensation
It’s such a good vibration
It’s such a sweet sensation
🎶
Marky mark…😂
This is refreshing. The empath in me wants to tweak this or that and fall on the sword here and there. Good to know. I am ok. It’s not like you are apologizing for your kind but HELPS to hear we are ok, if not better than ok. You really are validating. In areas I least expect it. Thankyou.
Hahahaha who says narcissists don’t have a sense of humour ???! Thank you for your answer… “control your emotional thinking while understanding what you’re dealing with” …..our best defense summarized in one sentence.
LOA principles kicked out the window, 80’s playlist on repeat. 🙂
Cheers
Oooooo she called you old. 😋
Lol Love ❤️ I certainly meant no offence …. I meant it more as a compliment:)
Hi shantily,
I know did not asked me but I just wanted to add something to HG’s comment. I have read about the LOA and other similar things as being the main reason why victims are chosen or remain in dysfunctional relationships and this is misleading.
Most of our empathetic traits, which Normals do not have at all (they have told me about it recently – I am not guessing), and also the fact that we are not always able to hide our compassionate behaviour from other people, are green lights to narcissists. As for why people remain in unhealthy intimate relationships, it has to do with their unhealthy upbringing and indoctrination in their family of origin, among other things.
Narcissists spend a lot of time watching other people and their body language. I know a boy who started doing it at the age of six. He was not born that way. He learnt it from her mother, who is a full-blown narcissist. Just imagine the knowledge and skills he will have to ensnare victims when he becomes an adult.
Being aware of your traits, vulnerabilities, behaviour and body language that attract narcissists and learning how to hide them or at least dim them will help you. It is easier said than done. There are circumstances when it is not always possible to hide them and I am far from achieving this goal but it has nothing to do with LOA, vibrations, quantum negative thinking, the paranormal or magical thinking.
“Sitting Target” and “Chained” are very important to learn about those traits which make people vulnerable to narcissists and “Red Flags”, “Black Flags” and “Danger” will help you see the warning signs to recognize narcissists and run away from them before it is too late.
Hey E.B I will definitely take that into consideration in the future. The narc I knew has had criminal charges laid against him recently for assaulting me so now surely this is the end right ? Lol
One day some day maybe I’ll get back out there in the mean time I’ll keep that in mind when it comes to making new friends or co-workers etc.
I’ve never been able to tone down my personality unfortunately I think my best weapon is awareness and knowledge.
I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to reply to my inquiry to HG. The more we know the better off we are
Cheers 💙
Shantily
I forgot to ask what exactly this image represents? My take is its a narc posing as a victim hence the bandages? Im curious to know.
Narcissist posing as victim owing to the bandages (as you identify), also concealing true identity, further what appears to be normal is actually not. The skulking pose of the lizardman also denotes the way our kind skulk around forums as in the real identity lurks until it suddenly appears through ignited fury.
Thx for the explanation HG. I find the images very interesting and enjoy figuring them out. That ones been the creepiest so far!
I was never aware of what narcissism was before I read your articles and books. Thank you for raising my awareness and helping me avoid a couple more I have nearly got entangled with during dating. Without the information you provide on this site, I probably would have ended up repeating the cycle.
One question I have great interest in, is that i have read articles by other people who talk about empaths taking on the traits of the narcs in their lives. Would you say this I am true? Or are these people mid-rangers?
Thank you 😊
You are most welcome Louise.
I understand people refer to his as narcissistic fleas. I do not agree with that view.
You are either dealing with
1. A narcissist who has passed themselves off as an empath ; or
2. An empath who has some narcissistic traits which have come to the fore as a consequence of the abuse etc that they have sustained.
Thank you so much for your reply. The reason I ask is for a couple of reasons;
1) introspection – I am studying psychology and so have a need to understand myself and my motivations.
Honestly speaking, only very recently I have realised, through great introspection, post two marriages to who I can now identify as narcissists (but still not pin pointed exactly which schools they belong to)…..that I have very strong Aspergers traits. This has been a long process littered with many psychological assessments being performed on me, only for the outcome to be that I have the traits, but I’m too socially capable to have the ‘disorder’. During this process, at one point (a very closed minded CPN) attempted to diagnosed me with a personality disorder (NPD) or boarderline. Apparently my disgust in being assessed as having a mental health problem caused me to show some narc traits. I’m gathering that this maybe down to being brought up by a narc mother and being married for over 20 years to two narcs.
Amazingly since holding all 3 at arms length, my personality (actual personality) is coming back, stronger than ever.
Thought this may help people gain some insight.
2) I have now come across others who seem to have been affected in the same way.
I really enjoy reading all your articles……please keep them coming 😊.
Very interesting
This just reminds me of the time I actually attempted to go to an in-person support group that was run by a psychologist in my area. I showed up the day he told me and no one was there. You would think he would have posted something on a website or whatever to indicate that maybe they were changing locations etc. Needless to say I was turned off completely and never attempted again.
I got stood up in true narcissistic style by the person who was in charge of the narc support group and it was another psychologist lmao!
Therein was your taste of an Absent Silent Treatment.
It was a weird experience lmao. The psychologist said he was married to a narcissist and that’s why he started the group. Now I’m wondering if he is one lol!
Dr Q
Maybe a slip of the tongue. Maybe he meant to say his partner was married to a narcissist. 😄
Hi Doc,
Wow, this must happen a lot because i had a client that was referred to a support group and no one was there as well. Hmmmmmm…..And she said the same thing, no one called her, no post. It was the type of group that charges insurance, so not a casual thing either. Weird!
I know when I ran regular DBT groups, my co leader and I always made sure we had sufficient numbers before a start date (we met each of them for intakes, etc) and only canceled during emergencies. Even with a power and all our computers were down, we were pulling paper files in the dark to get phone numbers to call each client and cancel.
Indy,
The whole thing was straight up weird.
Earlier in the year I actually went on an interview for a private practice and the psychologist interviewing me was totally bizarre.
He was probably late 30s I think and he made me walk in front of him up and down the stairs (I didn’t know where I was going it was strange). He also made me role play and said some strange things to me in the room. I knew him through someone he went to school with and I said oh we shared a kid together (the friend we have in common is a psychologist, is married, and the guy knew his wife) and he said “oh you have a kid together?” with this smirk on his face and managed to lie a few times while I was talking to him.
Bottom line…either a narc or a psychopath…
flat affect…dead eyes…lied multiple times….
Goodness, he sounded icky, Doc!
I know I have come across a few in the field too, more in the research end of things (cold SV cerebral types mainly) but there are those icky clinical ones that you just want to take a bath after spending time with them. Psychiatrists too. A friend of mine who is a psychiatrist has strong traits of narcicissm and probably is. He is hilarious and a bit arrogant at times. However, he really is really bright and I would send family to him if they needed meds for mental health stuff. Overall talented doc,with a dark edge. He is sometimes referred to as doctor evil. LOL This is the one that literally enjoyed scaring me into screams. On a weekly basis!!
Indy,
I feel like Dr. Evil would have entertained the shit out of me LOL!
I actually know a few psychologists (older ones) who are narcissistic.
There was a psychologist I worked with like a year or two ago who was some kinda cluster B and ADHD lmao. I almost jumped off his project and he asked me to come back on it. I didn’t care how big his name was…I was willing to pass up the opportunity because I felt he disrespected me intellectually and I have pride. The guy came up to me right before graduation for my PsyD and said how great I did an amazing job on his project.
Hi Doc,
Oh he is a trip. You either love him or hate him. He is blunt, to the point, funny and at times not appropriate (not sexually, though he crosses some lines), and knows he’s good. He has a pretty good read on people as well.
He actually opened up a private practice in revenge to compete with a larger facility that did not treat him how he wished….and….get this….is killing it!!!! Now the larger facility is struggling to keep psychiatrists LOL.
Yeah, you would dig him. I think he has a little anti social in him.
Indy,
::sigh::
Why do the psychopaths always have to be so damn entertaining? It’s as if they know when we are getting the itch for some trouble.
At least this support group happens to satisfy both needs for me: An interesting psychopath and people to relate to.
See HG…
I’m effective lmao.
Dr. Q, is that ur pic? It’s lovely.
Jenna,
Yes that’s me lmao!
Thank you 😁😘
Lovely dr. Q! Brains and beauty!
Well, except when you talk abt ur narcs. Then ur language totally changes 😂
“Lmao” haha
Jenna,
Thank you!!!! Haha
Yes, I have a really dirty mouth lmao!
Indy,
I’m surprised you never gave Dr. Evil a go?
I would have lmao!
Haha, Doc!
Nah, he’s gay. Hubby is a hotty too.
Indy,
What the hell is it with me and gay guys? Lmao
Seriously ….. wtf
Haha I have the same draw. I love the LBGTQ community and being pan sexual myself (which essentially means I have a broad sexual fluidity), naturally I have several in my circle. I also have had crushes on several before I knew. Then we became friends. I know the feeling! 😂
There is a gay male dancer in my dance group. When he dresses as a woman to perform, he is incredibly sensual and fluid, not to mention beautiful! When we are dancing side by side, it is quite erotic to watch our contrast yet similarities. I admit I am very attracted to him, a gay man who cross dresses as a woman. Lol – now what would you title me? 😁
It’s the movement and dancing that evidently attracts you, not the gender.
You are absolutely correct Mr. Tudor
Hi Love and Doc,
I believe that most people’s sexual attractions are on a spectrum and some people are very very heterosexual some people are very very homosexual and there’s a lot of gray in between. I am in the gray. I am attracted to masculinity, regardless of gender. Some call this bisexual though for me it’s specific to masculine traits, physical and personality wise(confidence, mild aggressive side, protective). Which almost always results in me dating biologic men.
To answer your question Doc, yes, I have been with only one biologic woman.
Love, I prefer not to box or label you or anyone, particularly when it comes to sexuality. Sexuality in my view is very much a spectrum just like many things because biology does not tend to fall neatly into categories.
And I also agree with what HG said, that you may be sexually attracted to the movement and not the person. And it’s natural to be even briefly attracted to transgendered individuals and those of the same sex. Even for those that are heterosexual.
Hi Indy ……I read your post with interest…..I am learning so much on this site and it’s not all narc related, which is good as we all need a break from that now and then. Anyhow……your post made me think about Samantha Jones….Sex and The City…….when she said she was Try-Sexual……..meaning she will try anything once…..I liked that mentality…..it wasn’t a label, as such, or being put in any particular box, (which I find so annoying in any context)………she was just so very open minded (even though she was a fictional character)…. which is rare, especially where I reside…….anyways…..I enjoy reading your posts and just wanted to let you know. Diva
Diva
Sorry to interupt. But, which of the ladies do you think H.G. would be attracted too? Also, with his manipulations which one of them do you think you be attracted to H.G?
I think he would be attracted to Carrie and think Charlotte would fall for the facade☺ Based on what we have learned some would probably think the opposite.
Hi Diva,
Thank you for your kind words, I’m glad you found this blog, it has helped me so much over the last year.
Even though sexuality is somewhat off topic, sexual fluidity is sometimes seen in those with narcissim and in those with BPD as well (not all). I have spent a lot of time in real life educating people on sexually and gender identity (I’ve had clients explore their sexual and gender identities) and like I said to Doc, I sometimes fear the reaction(I live in the Bible Belt) , though I’m open too, since if I can’t be my true self, then I’ve lost a piece of me too.
Yes, Samantha from sex and the city, lol. I did like her spirit!
Thank you for saying hi and welcome! I look forward to reading more about your journey of healing here😊
Good evening Indy!
As you know I relate to you extremely well and have to agree with your sexual identity spectrum.
I have been reading this thread and others over the past few days but have been too busy moving my daughter back to college. Exhausting!!!!!
Just like autism, NPD, BPD, and empaths, there is a spectrum for sexual identities. When I look back to my younger years I was boy crazy but didn’t think anything wrong with anyone in the LGBT community because of my extremely open mind even though I was brought up catholic. I spent many nights in gay bars and hanging out with the drag queens. Lol…. I got married and didn’t look at anyone for 20 years til I crossed paths with my ex. I was extremely comfortable with her from the beginning. We all take on different sexual journeys. I believe my sexual fluidity has always been with me but there wasn’t a reason for to it to come out. Lol.. For others it won’t surface because it’s just not there. My ex did not like that I considered myself bisexual because she wanted to control my “label”. She wanted me to be a lesbian. I completely understand what Windstorm said about people jumping to conclusions about you once you have been with a woman. I can’t tell you how many times I have been asked if I’m now a lesbian but I have learned that I am attracted to certain traits and characteristics and not race, gender, or age.
I had a hard time with this after the end of the relationship because of the identity crisis that happens. I’m still not sure of who I am and I certainly don’t need any labels but at least I can say who and what I’m attracted to.
My marriage is at another point in the recovery because of thinking that what I felt before would return but some things just haven’t come back. I am just not the same person. It’s frustrating.
Btw, my daughter called last night and told me she was invited to a “straight optional” party. Her friend is transgender and It was a LGBT party where they ask you your sexual orientation upon entering. Lol…she didn’t go. She is no where near as open minded as me but I’m proud of her for being accepting of others.
I know on another post you asked what books I was reading on C-PTSD.
They are “The Complex PTSD Workbook” by Arielle Schwartz and
“The PTSD Workbook” third edition by
Mary Beth Williams
Haven’t read them yet because of all the packing.
Hi Indy……I live in the UKs version of the Bible Belt…..same sex marriage is still illegal here……as are other matters that I would be best not referring to…….it’s a touchy subject matter…….after living in England for so long it is like living in a time warp. I have not been on this blog for very long but it has helped me immensely. I am not one for “support groups” normally……I would tend to deal with things myself……..but I had no choice on this one as I had no idea what I was dealing with. Now that I am here it is kind of addictive, I will have to wean myself off it at some stage. I will keep a look out for your posts…..Diva
You must be in Norn Iron
Correct…..but I haven’t lost my accent…..just as well…..they can’t tell what I am saying and I don’t have a clue what they are talking about…..I have no idea what I am doing here. Have you ever visited NI?
Many times
Around the time of Maggie Thatchers reign I distinctly remember being sat in front of the TV and stating “who in their right mind would ever live there?” Yet here I am…… although it has moved on in many ways, (on paper!!!!), it is still a bizarre place of extremes, characters and opposing opinions…..maybe that’s the draw to me……it would not be too difficult to draw negative fuel here….if you are brave enough……and I am definitely not in that category! I find myself often adopting the “nodding dog” routine and just saying “hmmm”….no matter what is being said. I learnt this tactic very shortly after I first arrived here (a long time ago) and decided to impart some of my ignorant political views on my neighbours, a few fields away…….the next day my dog came into the house carrying a tennis ball that I had never seen before…..on the ball were 3 initials in black marker……TNT. I didn’t realise the full extent of my “ball throwing capabilities” until that day. On saying all of that it is a stunning place to live and most of the people are friendly, once you learn to keep your mouth shut. HUSH!!!!
Thank you for sharing that Diva, most interesting, Now is it Derry or Londonderry?
That depends on who I am talking to…….
There is a Bible Belt in the U.K. as well? The positive for me is living in a city as it is more diverse.
I will definitely keep an eye out for your posts as well 😊
Hi Indy…..yes I think you could safely state that a part of the UK has it’s own version of the Bible Belt……same sex marriage, prostitution and abortion…..all are illegal here in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. Diva
I think Bible Button would be more appropriate.
Interesting about your “bible button.” I’m curious, is there any part of the U.K. where buying/selling alcohol is illegal? Most of the counties here in Kentucky are “dry.” You can possess alcohol in your own home, but you can’t buy or sell it.
As far as I know, there are none. It amuses me when in your state it is described as having wet, dry and moist areas.
Ha, ha! Not amusing here. My county is definitely dry. You have to drive about 30 miles in any direction to buy alcohol. It always shocks people from other areas that restaurants don’t even serve alcohol in any form. The last 5-10 years have seen many counties go wet or at least moist. It’s a hot button topic here, so many Protestant churches believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
I was surprised to learn in Kansas that liquor stores don’t have drive thru windows. You have to actually get out of your car and go inside. My exhusband explained that one for me. Since drinking is not a “sin” there, people don’t mind being seen in liquor stores. Every liquor store I’ve even seen in Kentucky has a drive thru.
It is idiosyncrasies such as these that mean I am such a fan of the USA.
Hi Windstorm!
Kentucky is somewhere that my ex and I frequently visited. We stayed just over the border from Ohio right next to the Newport Aquarium. I wasn’t aware of all the dry cities there til I stayed. Going into a Mexican restaurant and not being able to have a margarita is the worst.
I enjoyed being by the river.
Hey Snow White!
I’ve been thru Newport, but didn’t stop. It’s too big for me. I’m not fond of any type of city. I prefer wild rural areas. I’ve always lived somewhere in cave country so very few, very small rivers (most water runs underground). The only times I see the Ohio River is when I cross it on the way to Kansas!😄
Hi Windstorm2,
There are “dry” places in the US still? The horror!
Georgia just started allowing alcohol sales on Sundays a year or two ago. Oddly, I always craved a drink on Sundays, until now. When you can’t have it, right? You still can’t purchase it before noon on Sundays though.
I just looked at a map Indy which shows the wet,dry and moist places. Rather interesting.
There is such a map? Hahahahha….now I have to look.
Windstorm2! You are in a dry county? Man. I am so sorry! I would be stalking up on wine, tequila and bourbon LOL
Hey Indy!
We need to visit the Caribbean! Rum as soon as you get off the plane. It’s everywhere!!!
At the jewelry store.
At the hotel lobby.
At the ferry ports.
I had never seen anything like it. People were bringing it back home like crazy.
Hi Snow,
Lets go! I love homemade Caribbean food. There is a family that lives across from my way that makes the most amazing jerk mango chicken and plantains! Add some rum in the mix and some party music and….yes…..
Dancing Indy, whirling Snow around!
Woohoo Indy!!!
Beautiful visual for my morning!!!!
Could definitely get used to that routine.
Twirling you back with a dip. 🎼
Way ahead of you. Buy my rum by the case!
Holy cow, Windstorm!! Kentucky looks bad on the map!! Dry spots everywhere.
Indy
You don’t have to tell me! Even a lot of the cities are dry. Churches really fight liquor sales and having a liquor store nearby! And of course all those dry counties have bootleggers still, too!
Reminds me of a joke – do you know how to tell a Catholic from a Babtist in a liquor store? When a Catholic sees someone he knows he waves and calls out. When a Babtist sees someone he knows he ducks and hides. -( no offense meant to any Baptists)
Hahahahha, Windstorm2, I love that joke.
Yes, you HAVE to have wine at minimum if you are any kind of decent Catholic. I mean, seriously, the mass has to have wine while you are eating that dry wafer (I mean body of Christ)! LOL
So, this brings me back to as memory when my sis and I were little. We used to practice receiving communion by pressing wonder bread in circles and sneaking out our fathers cheap wine(he was more of a beer kind of guy). We suck into our mother’s crystal and got a fancy cup out and then do our own pretend ceremonies…..I think we were tipsy by the time we were done. LOL
Windstorm and Indy
As a kid I met a new friend and was instantly invited to stay over at her house. They turned out to be a family of hippies. No father but the mother was a blast and there werent many rules. We travelled all over in this VW van and one Sunday I guess she thought it would be fun (or a learning experience) to take us to church. I was bored stiff so when the dude broke out the grape juice and crackers I was on it like a fat kid on donut and ran right up there. I remember when I came back to the group they couldnt stop laughing and asked me if I knew what I just did. I told them I was just hungry and they should go get some. They laughed harder and we all got ‘the look’ only church goers can give. I remember also someone coming up and handing us fake money at the end and telling us that every week we came we would get more fake money to buy cool things like a pencil case. Jesus bribes? Too bad they moved away. Good times.
Wait……was I in a cult?……
Ha NarcAngel! You’ll never know for sure how close you came to joining a cult! Think of the different path your life might have taken – always being “happy”, no real thoughts of your own, your house full of church trinkets purchased with your attendance money….shoot! By now you’d probably be one of the people handing out the money trying to lure little kids in to save them from independent thought. Wait! That’s just too far!! I can’t even joke about something that outrageous!! 🤣
Hahaha NA and Windstorm2,
Oh common now, who wouldn’t want a Jesus pocket protector (to keep your crucifix safe) and a collection of charms that depict the stations of the cross?
I love that cracker story! I know that look too! Did I tell you about the nark boyfriend I brought to church with my mother (she wanted to attend) and he never went to mass previously. He went up and put the wafer of Jesus in his pocket for later? My mother looked in horror (devout catholic). I was trying not to bust out laughing. “He pocketed Jesus!” 😂
Indy, that made me laugh. I’m surprised he didn’t try to make change from the collection basket…or even take some of the money.
Nah, I was still in the golden period with him where he wanted to impress my very catholic mother. (Mind you, he told me he was a shaman in his dating profile. That was my hook. Laughing at myself.).
Purely using HGs analogy…….the “button” is truly “wet” here in Northern Ireland……if it ever turned “dry” then we would have a whole new meaning of The Troubles, on our hands……….drinking here is like a national sport……
Diva
Ha, ha, ha!!
Cool, Divedrive and a bit Kinky! 🙂
Oh wow that’s a term I haven’t heard in minute (pan sexual) – so have you had girlfriends?
Hi Doc,
Yep, one. Very special relationship for me.
Whoop whooop! Go Indy, sexy lady! Thank you for the explanation on sexuality! 💜
Awesome Blog Sir HG Tudor. Loving on You…
Lol 😁
Indy,
That was a very extensive response. In all seriousness thank you for feeling comfortable enough to openly share that.
Hey, I would give Elizabeth Hurley a whirl lmao even ruby rose …. she is actually drop dead gorgeous… both the more feminine and masculine versions are just like wow they make my jaw drop lol
Dr Q and Indy
I find your conversation about sexuality being fluid and on a continuum very interesting. I had never heard that before. Here anything other that blatant full heterosexual is considered deviant. No one could have a conversation like that without absolutely horrifying and disgusting anyone who could hear them.
Makes me wonder now how many of us are somewhere more to the middle in our sexuality and have just always assumed we were defective and been ashamed – certainly afraid to speak of it. We are all taught to think things are right or wrong, black or white, but reality is so often full of shades of grey. Maybe the reason people react so strongly when confronted with different sexuality is really because they are themselves somewhere on that continuum and deep down they sense it and it frightens them?
It would possibly also explain why some women come out of an unhappy relationship and then try one with another woman. Here that prompts everyone to comment in shock, “Did you hear that she is really a lesbian?” That never made any sense to me – surely people don’t just flip back and forth in what they find attractive. And 4 times out of 5 those new relationships wouldn’t last and the next one might be with a man again.
Hi Windstorm2,
Yes, you make several great points. I agree that our sexual expression is certainly impacted by culture, laws, and societal norms. I think of certain Native American cultures that look at transgender individuals as being spiritually on a special spiritual path. Then I see how it is received in the Bible Belt. How laws kept people quiet and hidden and persecuted. These things I also believe influence how we live and love. Biology plus environment plus society/culture. There are no boxes in my humble. We create them for our own comfort and understanding, imposing order on a highly complex world, and the creation of the us-them dynamic.
Indy
I don’t like boxes either. Reality is chaos, order is a man-made concept. Just look at the ethnicity boxes. When people get their DNA checked it almost always shows they’re mutts. Order and labels are just guidelines at best. Not truth. My own reality has never fit in with society’s idea of normal. I have always scorned societies labels. Maybe my deviations are really more “normal” than I ever thought. 😄
Thank you for sharing about your sexuality. I know how hard that is – I’ve lived my whole life in the Bible Belt. It has been a real help to me. ❤️
Thank you Windstorm. . 🙂 <3
Thank you, Doc,
Yeah, sorry, it was a very long explanation when I could have just said yes. I’m so used to proving explanation in the South. Even though I am open about it, it is always a risk and I get nervous. I appreciate your acceptance 😊
Yes, Ruby Rose! In the younger years, Angelina Joli.
Indy,
You don’t have to prove anything.
We all like you just the way you are 😘
I feel like a lot of us have taken a dip in the lady pond in one way or another lol!
Hey, at least you have more options – I would love to at least be bisexual! Lol
Hi Doc,
Thank you 😘🤗
True, in our culture women are more allowed to dip into the pool, more so then men, unfortunately.
I’m actually very picky about the type of person I’m attracted to and now I feel ruined LOL. All the things I’m drawn to are now red flags. I’ve changed, now im not sure if I’m even attracted to anyone anymore.
Soooo, no more stray cats with charming meows. 😆
Indy,
With all the shit I went through I can’t fake anything anymore. I love when people are like “oh give him a change” um no – I’m not attracted to the person and I’ve spent years having sex and doing sexual things with someone I was no longer attracted to at all – in fact I felt like a fucking prostitute – the thought of touching anyone at all that I’m not attracted to or trust in some way makes me want to rip my skin off.
Indy,
This is ultimately how I feel these days- like Marnie in Alfred Hitchcock’s film Marnie 😕
https://youtu.be/bSlvWajeBVc
DBT has literally saved my life. It’s the reason I’m able to even get a grasp on what happened to me and begin to deal with it, including researching narcissism. I’m so thankful for the work of DBT counselors. Right now I’m looking for another group as my insurance changed and the facility doesn’t take my new insurance. I miss it!
Hi MistyNolan01,
I love hearing stories of folks that have benefited from DBT. I, too, have seen many ppl with traits of BPD and full BPD start their healing journey with DBT and it’s beautiful to witness. Their courage inspired me. Although I do not have BPD, I have/had symptoms that I can relate very strongly with BPD as I had suicidal ideation and issues with boundaries for years. DBT was the only thing that helped me as well. Have you found search engines that can help you find another DBT trained therapist? I know of a couple of links that can help you find those trained. I hope these provide some potential leads for you! Best to you and always enjoy reading you posts on your journey!
https://behavioraltech.org/resources/find-a-therapist-app/
https://www.dbtncaa.com/provider-registry
We all know there is no site that can compare to this site! It was the first one a friend of mine told me about. Although I have checked out different sites just out of curiosity, they can’t come close to this one! Thank you HG for your knowledge and honesty! Although at times it hurts, I wouldn’t want it any other way!! Xxx
Thank you FM1T
Now or never…violence and hate have become the norm.
As a society we have become numb or narcs. Witnessing our (USA) moment of silence on live TV was ingenious I felt physically ill.
Let’s beat this… like cancer. Education is Me and You.
We share because we care……
PS If I ever heard “go in love and light” one more time, I believe I would have puked.
Ha ha, HG approves.
Could not agree more
I heard ‘love and light” recently and I did puke. Then laughed my ass off.
How about go in darkness, despair, hopelessness, strife and contempt. How about that… harbor anger and disbelief in something you don’t believe in.
As long as we are on this earth it will continue to evolve and we can choose our attitudes be cynical or hopeful. I personally have a high level of respect for you and your in your face approach.
In my opinion there are key parts that completes our soul.
Spiritual
Financial
Relationships
Emotional
Health
Not in the exact order, if we lack in any of these areas it’s hard for most to feel complete.
For example some relationships fail if theres no emotional and financial support..if we don’t have spiritual, moral or emotional guide then we are subject to fall for anything or stand for nothing.
This reminds me of a story…this lady went for prayer because she said the devil was putting lies in her head and she knew they were lies and she needed help. The pastor responded it’s the devil, and you know he’s lying and you are upset? Yes, in tears the woman replied. 🤔🤔
I think we must believe in a higher power other than ourselves narcs excluded.
This is not an attempt to say you are wrong and I am right but if we must choose evil over good regardless if it’s fake. I would prefer to be happy with positive thoughts with a fake God than a narc. For sure God will never fail and nothing to lose.
Yolo
The person who said light and love to me had just made a comment that was intended to be rude so it was disingenuous, which is why I had the reaction that I did. They took away from the meaning of the saying and their own credibility but using it in that fashion. Sad.
Narc Angel,
Thanks for response. It’s just been so much evil and hatred in the U.S. over the past few months so much negativity its frustrating.
This repeated hate and violence is numbing and causes good people to give up and lose hope on humanity.
My intentions were well , i am a true fan of your in your face blunt responses. Reading through the lines I know your words are meant to encourage us in moving forward.
I’ve missed out on that one. Never heard “go in love and light.” Sounds like something those Hari Krishnas that used to hang out in airports back in the ’70’s would say. Makes me laugh to imagine the reactions of people around here if someone said that to them. Lol!
In my years of learning about narcissists and what I was dealing with, I visited and became a “member” of two other online groups, run by women who have “experience” with dealing with narcissistic abuse and recovery. I have also viewed posts on YouTube by two others. All of these people are published authors. None gave me the knowledge or support or the real truth on how to break free of the narc in my life. As a result, I took him back twice. Only during my devaluation #3 did I find your website/blog. Only since then have I truly learned, and not been either coddled or scorned. Only here do I feel safe in sharing. The very best thing I can say about your blog and your books, HG, is that now I have the tools I need. Now I have the strength not to go back. Now I have developed real knowledge, and knowledge is POWER. (PS It is a direct result of what I’ve learned here, and continue to learn, that I was able to leave HIM this time, to maintain No Contact and to stay away.) I truly am deeply grateful to you and you’re absolutely right, this is the only place I need. Thank you HG.
Thank you Lisa B, a powerful testimony.
Sadly, the majority of the support groups out there are, as you said HG, run by narcs themselves or are not really there for “support” or “recovery”; they’re there for people to incessantly whine and stay stuck. I couldn’t take it. I completely understand that some issues need to be talked to death and people need safe places to share, but a great many people are clearly dealing with issues BEYOND the entanglements with the narcs. I was actually kicked out of a group because I told one of the members a very inconvenient truth;
We can blame the narcs for their behavior and rightfully so. However, there came a point where I had to take ownership of my own issues and deal with my own co-dependency and low self-esteem. Granted, it may not completely take the targeting away, but because I had already done work on myself when this person came back into my life, things ended up far better than they could have. What was a few months spent learning a lesson could have been YEARS of entanglement and abuse. I chose never to call myself a victim, stay in a victim mentality or to give my power away so easily. (Of course, I was also dealing with a mid-ranger who half-assed everything, including narcissism)
At any rate, to recover implies action. HG, to your credit, you actually give people steps to follow to take (at the very least) the first and most important action when dealing with your kind.
Thank you for all of your work.
You are welcome Carla and thank you for sharing your experience, which does not surprise me.
Carla
(a mid-ranger who half-assed everything, including narcissism) Hilarious!
Thank you!
Carla,
I admire your attitude and strength! I also laughed and related to your “half-assed” Mid-Range Narcissist remark! I encountered the same (my recent Nex) and got a half-assed Golden Period. WTH!!! The one good thing he did for me was lead me to discover my attraction for Narcissists and now I’m prepared!
Carla
I think Im in love.
Carla couldn’t agree more.
HG
What are your thoughts on “secret” forums?
I cannot tell you, it’s a secret.
I should have expected that!
I guess then we both hold a secret
Indeed.
Do you mean secret groups on FB?
Yes
I belong to a couple and have just recently started sharing your articles,
Thank you, please keep doing so.
Your welcome HG! I will!
I belong to a secret one and im glad for the anonymous factor that said nothings completely secret on fb.
I belong to a few, I started sharing HGs work, lol I was reprimanded for supporting a narcissist privately on one, which got interesting to say the least. On Another his work so far has been received well.
In reality nothing is secret on the internet.
No prizes for guessing what was really behind the reprimand.
Oh darn! I wanted a prize!
No, they found out I don’t back down to bullies
October is National Domestic Violence awareness month. We can all do our part of sharing HG work without appearing to overshadow his work over others.
Breast cancer awareness is also in October. If only we could receive similar type of recognition. There is so much shame and lack of awareness most people as well as victims shun the thought of emotional and mental abuse.
I have plate in my eye and a 4.5 inch scar on me as a reminder of seriousness of their abuse.
Keep sharing…
Great idea Yolo!
Yolo
I am sorry, scars can be reminders. You have freedom now. I do understand just what can happen.
It will take an act of God to keep me from sharing HGs work. Or him asking me to stop.
😊😊😊
Yolo
Your idea is wonderful and yes we can’t force this information yet put it out as a choice for others to learn from.
Twilight,
I will never attempt to force-feed anyone regarding beliefs about HG and his work. Although, I see great value in his work I am aware it’s not for everyone.
I have been on several antidepressants, group therapy, and individual therapy. Not only have HG work help me to learn more about narcs it has lead me to learn about myself.
I just switched to wellbutrin and added abilify. I am able to process things much clearer now. So, if I wrote something that appeared forceful I apologize.
Some of my “normal” family friends just nod and smile when I try to tell them about the disorder.
I worked as a program manager until a couple a years ago and since I decided to switch careers in my 40’s most of them think I am losing my mind maybe. I haven’t had the opportunity to sit back and reflect on all the mental and psychological abuse I’ve endured over the years. I was always traveling, leave home 7 am and return 8 pm. The doctors think I could experiencing PTSD from the physical abuse that occurred over 10 years ago.
I am extremely passionate about helping others that have experienced abuse. I have considered volunteering at our local DV shelter but I fear countertransference. For now I will continue to donate clothing items and assist with fundraising.
Narc Affair
On FB we are not really anonymous unless of course we are using a fictitious account. It has only been here we are assured of this. Given the choice to reveal what we look like if/when we chose to do so.
Hi twilight…i was told about HGs books on the secret forum im on. I utubed and found an interview with HG.
Youre right online nothing is truely secret. Facebook and privavy dont go together lol
Lol FB is far from private
Thank you for this. My therapist told me to find a support group. I did not feel comfortable with a real face-face group. I was lucky in that I found your book, Sitting Target, which brought me to this blog. Been here ever since. Never have gone to another group/blog.
Good to know Love.
Excellent, helpful blog, HG. During my search for support, I joined 2 fb sites. One was too open with too many me,mes. The only one Im in now is well managed that offers genuine support for female victims. If it wasn’t for that forum I wouldn’t have been directed to your site. I’m grateful to that forum and to you. Thank you.
You are welcome Scout.
Could you give me your feelings on UTube site: the narcissistic resistance? Thanks!
I don’t know of it Danah, why, what are your thoughts about it?
Danah…you didnt ask me I realize but to me….used to be good, now just full of himself on so many levels. Youtube fame and all that. What do you think?
I couldn’t be more appreciative and grateful that I found your blog relatively fast when I started researching misogny which led to narcissism, then you. I’ve perused some others and found a couple that are positive but nothing that drew me in and enlightened and educated me like you. I’m relieved that I didn’t fall into one of these sites where there is potential for more hurt and damage to happen and get kicked while you’re down.
Thank you HG!!
Thank you Clarece.
What ‘ other sites ‘ ? 🙃
HG approves.
Excellent abrokenwing!! 👏👏👏
What ‘ other sites’ ? 🙃
“…The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.”
Is this bloody elemental? But she is aware of what she is. Why was she outed? I want the gossip! 😉
Pls tell us!!! 😅😅😅
Wait and see.
That means info coming up soon! Stay tuned fellow readers for the latest drama on narcsite.com! 😀
I know i will be…
BE was a fraud. I called her out many many times. She is not a Narc but has many other issues but NPD was not one. Parrot syndrome would be my guess.
BE was not a narc?!😱😱😱
Why lie abt something like that?!!😨😨😨
Thank you for helping me avoid people like you. Your site is very helpful.
Sites like yours make me glad I’m a failure at dating due to a lack of social skills; which I’ve found enrages many narcissists since they are so appearance-oriented. I”m proud to be one because then I’m more likely to turn them off.
And if anyone wants to gang up on me, I highly encourage them to do it since I’m always ready for a good laugh.
You are welcome. Great name by they way and welcome on board.
You have probably met Elite and Somatics so far. Find a Mid Range Cerebral or a Lesser or Mid Range Victim and they will be all over you.
Honestly, I don’t want them to be. But I guess you can’t totally control who is. Anyway, thanks for your very informative site again.
“I’m a failure at dating due to a lack of social skills…”
Pls don’t be so hard on urself FAD.
Your name is funny as hell but don’t be so down on yourself!! We all love you here! 💗
Well, thanks, though none of you know me. It is a fact that I have social anxiety when it comes to things like online dating; which is why I hardly do it. I don’t consider myself a failure in other ways; just at that. Take care.
Hi Sir Tudor, yes I’ve noticed some readers being harsh to other readers on this site. One reader was considered vain, etc. Others verbally slammed. Regardless of the reasons, or irrational victim behavior, fact is victims are here because they’re trying to make sense of something terrible that happened. Some are very wounded, reeling from it all, madly in love with someone they thought was wonderful, but is pure evil and has left them devastated. I would think non narcs would understand that, that it’s a healing process that takes time. Often a victim isn’t just been damaged, but they’re victim of a crime and more and more truth is coming out while they are posting here.
I’m borderline and never feel like I fit in. One reason I post here is that, even if I don’t fit in with other posters, there’s the possibility of direct interaction with the host, and receiving a tidbit of advice directly from the horse’s mouth.
Always uplifting.
Misty Nolan
Fitting in is overrated. If we were all alike, we wouldn’t be able to learn new things from one another. My personal feeling is all you need to fit in here is a desire to learn about narcissism and a decent amount of common courtesy. You definitely have both.
Our common experiences and personality traits help bind us together, but it’s our differences that make us shine and keep things from being boring.
Misty,
I feel like I don’t fit in either – then again I realize now I don’t care. LMAO.
It is nice to be around people you can relate to.
After reading the three points listed, I feel this terminology is too broad or that I may be a midranger. I have done all of the above on this site and another after I escaped. I do feel as though I am a good person, sounded off about the things he had done and I think telling an associate of his about the money he owed me may be considered smearing.
Remember in each instance they are indicative, not determinative and it is the aggregate behaviour over a period of time which is the determinant.
Makes sense! Thank you!
You are welcome.
Would love to know who in particular you are talking about HG. Ive sometimes thought and wondered about a couple of people myself. Its not hard to see the youtube fame going to their heads. Makes me unsubscribe….
And yes, why would we bother really.
Thanks HG.
I have frequented countless “narcissist recovery” sites. Not a single one offered any healing or solution. No insight. No truth. No hope. Mostly people using no contact as a way to get someone to come back.
This is the ONLY site that has given me the hope to recover, the strength to have boundaries and the belief that I’m worth more than I’ve ever settled for. You’re my very favorite, HG. You have my undying appreciation.
Thank you 12345.
Most advice online, is from people who have triumphed, only because they have dealt with covert/midrangers and had the finances and resources to do so. Today, I was online, and cringed with the advice the host gave to a codependent that is dealing with a sociopath. That codependent will be eaten alive when she follows the poor advice.
No, don’t need to go anywhere else, your explanations have been truly incredible and enlightening. Thank you for doing what you’re doing.
Thank you for reading Ali.
“Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.”
Um, yep! Two come to mind.
Whoever could you mean Indy?
Oh, they were so irrelevant, I seem to have forgotten their names.;-)
Like so many countless others, I am so ever thankful to have been guided to your site and that my search for help was not full of the peddlers of snake oil and “pity-me’s”. I found Sam Vaknin first(hard core and dry, scientific), then Shahida Arabi (a sweet empath with good guidance) and then you (The Tude!) by referral. I am very lucky. I have nothing but good things to say about the other two as well, though your unique combination has them beat. The combination of stern yet humorous and pragmatic approach that is very straight forward is winning. And, even though I was first skeptical and cautious (hell, I was scared of you after reading Evil), what you said rang true with some of the basic behavioral tenants in my training, just never applied so effectively in these type of situations.
You are changing minds and practices as you help people help themselves. That is pretty glorious.
And, great piece here, I am glad you wrote it!
Thank you Indy.
Just for the record I am an empath. I may be dirty and cranky but I am not a narcissist. And I haven’t been on any other forums (fora) because I like it here. And besides, everyone here is really cool. Thank you HG. I think your site is awesome!
BTW was it fun going undercover? Did you just observe? Or join in? Were you an empath or the Narc.? If I ever go undercover, I want my code name to be Deep Throat (Watergate).
Thank you K. I know you are not a narcissist.
This blog is the only blog I have ever written on and once I had discovered it and found I liked it I haven’t even looked for other blogs – I’m a one blog kinda woman lmao
Ha, ha, Dr Q! Me too!
Same here.
Now I must get back to watching game of thrones 🙂
Yep me too 😂👊🏼
Windstorm,
I have to say….
You are freakin awesome – I always enjoy reading your posts because you are very insightful, thoughtful, and open minded.
Hugs
Lol dr. Q u crack me up!!
I wish we cud all meet for grp therapy in person. I wud be especially interested in meeting clarece, indy, love, AH OH, windstorm, narcangel, superxena, EB, narcaffair, lansealan, snow white, sarah jane, nikitalondon, mona, and of course u dr. Q!!
I chose these pple because i’ve interacted with them more than others. So no offense to the others. You all are invited!!
We can even have a few guests of honor like clarece’s JN, my ex, windstorm’s moron in munich😂, any of love’s narcs 😆, or indy’s ex who is still hoovering til date😅
HG make this happen someday?!! 🙏😊🙏😊
Even though you won’t come, you are still invited HG!! You can wear a mask? Like the masks michael jackson’s kids used to wear when they were little. Just hope someone doesn’t pull it off! Lol!
Or maybe you shud b encased in a glass cylinder of sort. Then nobody can touch you and no hugs to dread either!! 😄
Oops i forgot astrongerwendy, 12345, and sues. My apologies.
Disclaimer: boys and girls do not attempt to invite your guest of ‘honor’ without thinking of the possible danger involved. Some narcs may seem harmless, especially the passive agressive, quiet, cowardly mid-ranger, but they may still be gathering information about you during the summit. If you feel your guest wud b a danger to u, pls do not invite him/her. Protect yourself!! 😅
Jenna – we would have so much fun!
I would love to meet you in real life one day.
I’m ridiculously goofy – can’t say I didn’t warn ya 😉 LOL!!
Doc, i enjoy goofy pple!!
Of course not HG. It does freak me out when the contact link appears to block me from your email…karma since I typed that I wouldn’t email you, no? You are my source of information regarding NPD. “Learn from the best” is my mantra and you are the best…no holds barred.
You don’t appear to be blocked by the machine any longer, I have seen an e-mail arrive.
It is hit or miss. That was the first try that worked. Blocked by the machine? Interesting concept. Maybe my machine no longer wants to communicate with your machine so it is self blocking. Machines are becoming smarter each day.
Anyway, your blog will always be my go to.
HG, you’re a horrible narcissist (!) and this is shameless self promotion: lesser (lifestyle boasting), mid (self-fetishising victim with sycophant ’empaths’) and greater (cold-hearted con artiste) – the holy trifecta all in one. no, the only way to see the snake in the grass is intuition, not crowd-think.
great image, btw
He’s not in denial…but what are you?😂
I am sorry, i am sure you are still traumatized.
I’m confused p. Are you upset that somehow Mr. Tudor has offended a blog of yours by calling them narcissists? Or are you upset he is a narcissist and admits it openly? How is he promoting being a narc?
Love,
I’m confused as well. You read my mind. Thanks for posting the questions that were swirling around in my head.
Why the confusion? I am willing to bet she has her own blog. There’s a lot of people who supports his work and a few who oppose it.
Apparently he hit a nerve or two, but wherefore I cannot say.
I’ve notice rather its dirty little secret, or
weeping with the frenemy some post triggers strong/painful emotions in posters as witnessed in their responses.
If they are here looking for ideas for their work. I bet it will be harder to twist this post.
I read we were his cult followers 😂😂
YOLO~
I love it! Cult followers? lololol!
I’ve always wanted to find religion. js.
And here you have it 😁
https://youtu.be/u1xrNaTO1bI
Interesting….I have only been on a few sites one youtube and yours. I haven’t witness the level of interactions with readers that you provide. I can identify with the various posters/ readers. I use to question if I had npd but you said i didn’t 😊I have bpd and wonder how many on these sites suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
Indy,
Thanks for sharing. I don’t where to reply so I am replying on my own comment. 😊 I am taking a break from social services at the moment.
Yes, depending on whose in office resources are cut and the people needs remain the same or they require more intensive services. It takes a toll on a person working in social services the cuts affect staffing and the funding sources expect more for less.
I witnessed tons of layoff. The staff that remained would complain after agreeing to take on additional responsibilities. I started in MIS, then case management, business services and ended as program manager.
Prior to that I work with families in child protective services. Our goal was to assist with reunification using a multidisciplinary approach/ wraparound services. That was equally rewarding and heartbreaking.
As I continue to heal not only from personal abuse but the highly stressful and volatile work environment. I am looking forward to entering back but I don’t know at what capacity.
Again, Thank you.
Brilliant article HG !
I haven’t been on one of these sites for a few years now. But I do recall seeing people being treated like this and was quite confused. I didn’t join in or sadly did not stick up for the people either.
It all makes so much sense when you explain it all.
It has taken me a while to recognise the mid ranges as I failed for some time to see why someone of at least average intelligence fails to recognise what they are especially when they go on these sites.
Thank you.
I wanted to add a few other red flags of the life coach who is a midranger it was apparent ambition took over and they were more interested in becoming number one than their mission itself. Its ok to dream but they came off self centered and more interested in becoming the best. This life coach has a u tube as well and has quite the following.
For reasons I cannot understand, this is indeed my favourite site and the only one I feel is helping me get over him. I only ever get support here too so it’s great. Now that I’m getting over the one who broke me heart, I’m going to start concentrating on the narc I cannot go no contact with (children) who is still making my life difficult! HG, if your intention is to educate others on narcissism and how to survive and thrive then well done, I have certainly learnt a lot here.
You are welcome Bliss, you are in the right place.
Very interesting blog!! Yes ive come across this on a certain forum which i wont name but i still visit. Id see certain people blocked and wonder what went wrong. One young guy in particular was definitely an empath and had done a few live vids was suddenly blocked. I had no clue why and it had come out of nowhere. I private msged him on facebook and he would not say anything bad about the moderators who ran him off and decided to stay off the site. Many others were just as surprised. It was sad to see bc he really needed the support. Back then i just assumed hed done something wrong but i suspect it to be the case where a narcissist was in the mix and making decisions.
One thing ive learned online is to be leary bc there are narcissists everywhere and also victims can have narc traits as well.
I met a victim of narcissism and became close friends only to discover them as a midranger. They seemed to be very empathetic but i seen red flags along the way which i wasnt sure of. Over the span of a few month the truth came out and they werent a friend at all sadly. They are now counselling others which seems hypocritical seeing the way they can discard people. Thats where its so important to be careful where you get your info from. There are many life coaches that crop up and are no more healed than other people going thru the motions of healing and you can get the same thru connecting with others without paying money and getting wrong misleading info.
This friend was another lesson in narcissism. I dont think theyre aware they are a narcissist yet they are counselling others with no qualifications. Oddly they did give some good advice but some of their advice was quite severe. They were quick to critique other coaches and people on utube. This was my first red flag bc an empath wont do that usually.
Even chatting with others i keep my mind open to the fact each person has had different experiences and to realise they are not perfect. Many can be triggered and lash out or misinterpret things. Victims unhealed should not be coaching others. Even if they are healed its better to go to someone qualified.
Forums and coaches need to be taken cautiously. Its great to connect and share experiences but realise you dont know these people in real life or their backgrounds and as far as solid advice its best to get that from a professional trained in narcissism HG being one of them.
Ive learned a lot from support groups but ive seen a lot of narcs scattered throughout and victims still hurting and finding their way. Advice and information should only be taken from people qualified on the subject not someone who labels themselves as such. Personally id not go to a life coach but instead a psychologist trained in narcissism or HG from a narcissists perspective. Too many “experts” out there giving out bad advice. Theres a reason why trained professionals charge what they do bc they had years of schooling and know what theyre doing. Many life coaches are the blind leading the blind.
Hg itd be great if you could do a blog on life coaches.
Hi Narc Affair,
I agree 100%. I learned about the field of “life coaching” during my formal training in psych. What really is upsetting is that many have no training what so ever and some even set themselves up as being equivalent to formally trained professionals. Now, with that said, there are gems! I have said many times to HG, who has told me that he is not formally trained in psych, that he should be an honorary behavioral psychologist (an area I am trained in and I recognize this skill when it is used and taught and he does this exceptionally well) because many of his strategies, tools, and weapons (yes, weapons) are based solidly within the teachings of behavioral psych.
Many of these “life coaches” have not seen a class beyond the basic psych 101, never mind show a true understanding of behaviorism. Thus, these lesser trained life coaches fail to understand the behavior underpinnings of why no contact is effective, why it is used and why “exorcism” of the ex in multiple forms is needed too to move beyond the stage of addiction to the narc. HG spells this out in beautiful layman’s terms, though he also understands the reasons. Many life coaches simple do not.
I am not saying life coaches experiences are worthless an those that are empaths, if they are taught well enough, can validate others experiences and offer simple tools. But some do not and do not understand at all and I have seen them verbally abuse and actually resort to victim blaming and calling victims names. This is just re traumatizing and complete BS. There are a couple of sites that come to mind I know that have done this. Life coaches must know their limits as should those “clients” that consult with them. Many survivors cannot even think and are in a fog when they leave and are prime candidates for being taken in for a scam. And, like you said, some life coaches have not healed yet and exhibit what we call “countertransference” directed toward readers. Some spend hours in their videos whining about past abuses and seek sympathy fuel rather than offer tools. There are a handful that are helpful, though buyer beware, as always. I wish there were more legislation that would protect people from life coach predators as well as the untrained well meaning though ineffective life coaches.
Now, I am not saying formally trained individuals are a guarantee. You all know better than that and most know me better than that. Some are complete crap and some are predators as well. I have had a few and have also looked around myself for my own therapy. I believe all therapists should get therapy to work out their own shit. Just my opinion, and some training programs require it.
Do you homework and if you do not feel your therapist is not being ethical, there are licensing boards to report them to. If you feel that you just do not click and they do not get you, there is no shame in trying a few out for a test run. Once you do find one that works, hold on to them! They are gems.
Safe and effective healing, y’all!
Indy
Hi Indy,
“I am not saying formally trained individuals are a guarantee. You all know better than that and most know me better than that. Some are complete crap and some are predators as well. …”
I totally agree with you. There is no guarantee. Some years ago before knowing about this blog, I used to be in another support group run by a qualified therapist. There was a LMRN member of the Victim cadre. The rantings and stories of this individual were so dramatic and exaggerated that it was difficult not to see their disorder. However, *all* members including the qualified therapist, believed the pity plays of the LMRN-V and if I had mentioned what I really thought about them, I knew the therapist and the whole group would be against me. This individual targets people in support groups who are supposed to leave their families and life to care for them. Although I noticed from the very beginning that something was wrong, that the LMRN-V was exaggerating and telling plain lies, I thought I might be wrong because everybody, including the therapist, felt pity for this member and they were convinced that what this member wrote was genuine. But I feel different than most people. I usually check facts if I feel someone might be telling lies as narcissists usually look for valid information on the internet or from other sources but they are not consistent enough when they give other details. When this LMRN-V started writing me long posts almost every day, asking me (but not other members) about my private life and getting angry at me (passive-aggressive comments) because I did not want to disclose this information, I noticed what the LMRN-V wanted from me and I immediately left the group. Some months later I found this blog and what I had thought about this member made sense to me.
Although I need a therapist to help me deal with my past and present, I cannot trust anybody anymore. The only qualified therapist in the place where I live works together with two Mid-Range neurologists, who are supposed to replace her when she is not available. The first time I read it I thought it was a joke. (I know both narcissists because they used to be my husband’s neurologists.)
If a qualified therapist is not able to detect someone with a Cluster B disorder, they should not be working in this field because they will re-victimize their clients. Just to clarify, I am not talking about you, Indy. You are also right when you say that all therapists should get therapy to solve their own problems.
Very interesting EB, thank you for sharing that.
No problem. Glad it was useful, HG.
Hi EB,
How frustrating that is when a moderator of a group is not protecting its group members, ideally it is supposed to be safe place for folks. It angers me. Was this support group something you had to pay for (and in person)?
I really liked what you said here: ” I usually check facts if I feel someone might be telling lies.” This is a great self protective method. I do this too. I have always been a curious person and rarely trust on word alone….unless emotions get in my way, such as in romantic relationships (I am working on that though :). It is invalidating your gut instinct and self protective skills when others do not see it and then support the abuser. No wonder so many survivors start questioning their own wisdom and instincts.
I am glad you found this blog. Like you said, you wonder, is there anyone I can trust with these private details that will not use them against me?
Now days, I take things really slow, let others talk more and I listen a lot. Keeping my eyes peeled and my heart a bit more guarded.
Thank you for sharing your experience, it serves as a warning for others searching for support to be extra careful, particularly with personal information.
Hi Indy
If qualified therapists cannot recognize a narcissist, they will not be able to protect their members. I did not take it personally. Besides, few people come from a family where the two parents were narcissists *and* they had the scapegoat role. It is a free online support group and only members can read or write. It is hidden. The forum moderator (therapist) shows compassion to the forum members and also provides paid private consults. In my opinion, a therapist with a lack of knowledge and understanding about people with Cluster B disorders will not be able to help their clients effectively. If you take a look at the readers on this blog, there are only two qualified therapists reading, writing and asking questions: you and Dr HQ. Maybe there are others just reading or taking private consults but where are the rest? Compassion will not help me solve my own problems and I do not want any pity either. I believe the only people who can help me are Greaters because they are the only narcissists who have the capacity for introspection. Mid-Rangers and Lessers lack self-awareness; they do not know what they are.
Yes, I check facts whenever possible. For example, I remember my borderline/narcissistic mother-in-law telling me several times that her late husband was a civil engineer. Her son used to be convinced that his deceased father had a post-graduate degree too. Besides, this post-graduate degree appeared in *all* documents (!) including his Acons’ birth certificates and so on. However, there were several reasons for me to think that his father would have never been able to complete his studies. When I told him what I thought about it and that he could contact the university to check facts, he felt insulted but years later he decided to do it. It was not easy to get this information but eventually he received a letter from the university and he learnt the whole truth. There were other things apart from this one but this is just an example.
It is understandable that many Acons who did not have the scapegoat role have some loving feelings for their narcissistic parents. Knowing the truth can be painful if there are some positive feelings involved.
Behaviour is more important than to their words. I like this quote:
“People reveal themselves through their actions.”
I can tell you EB that I know of 8 psychologists/therapists who have consulted with me. Still, it is but a drop in the ocean.
And your blog started back in august 2015 and you are well known by now with over 5.6 million hits. Therapists and psychologists have no excuse not to educate themselves on narcissism anymore.
I forgot to mention in my last comment to Indy that the moderator/therapist of the support group I was talking about does not (is unable to) provide any kind of effective help like you do here. Learning self-compassion will not solve any problem. It was frustrating and disappointing.
Thank you EB, I do appreciate you spreading the word. There remains much to do however and this is where you and my good readers come into your own.
You are welcome, HG.
Yes, you are correct again EB. We need tools to get out, recognize them and avoid the abuse dynamic in the future when it is possible. Validation is huge too. HG does validate us and this is healing as well. He certainly weaponized us too, quite well! I agree, better than anyone I have seen. After getting out, self care, compassion, healing and continuing validation, and other therapies are effective but first you have to get out and see what you are dealing with. This is where they (therapists) fail big time, unless they know about it, which is rare indeed.
Remember though, sometimes the brutal blunt truth is the most compassionate thing someone can do for another. Even though HG is not intending to be compassionate, his actions are. In my humble opinion.
Indy
I agree with you about HG’s effect being compassionate even though it’s not his intention. Unintended consequences are still just as real as intentional ones.
I hope you might help me with understanding something many have mentioned lately. What is the difference between a life coach and a counselor? I googled it but it sounded much like HG and this blog, and also the very good counselor I have found (who’s into spiritual and cognitive therapy). Is it just anyone who can help you find your way? If so, it’s sad that it’s not all counselors and needs its own term.
Hope you’re having a great weekend! I am finally home and even though I have a tremendous mess to clean up (my exhusband house sat for me) all is right in my universe!
Hi Windstorm2,
I’m glad you made it home and are feeling at peace with it all ❤️ I’m enjoying a late morning coffee cuddled in my cozy couch, air blasting on cold (August in GA) and a blankie😂 I’m crazy, I know. It’s my comfy zone, cold and cozy wrapped up. I’m pretending it’s winter until I have to leave the home and do some chores. I love that I’m not booked to do one single thing!! All last week was pretty busy. I was double booked at work and had grandmother duties from Monday through early Thursday. The best part was sharing his first days at school and having special grandson and Nana time. ❤️ Lots of hilarious kid quotes. Now his mom is back in town, I can do my own thing.
So, what I have heard, anyone can put up a sign that says, “Life Coach”, without training or liscensing. Some life coaches do have a background in psych though many do not. An official therapist or counselor should have a lisence or work under supervision of a licensed practitioner and inform you up front. They also have to abide by certain professional ethical codes. The law protects the consumer and the therapist. This is not the same with life coaches. Counselors and therapists usually have a masters or doctoral degree in psychology or clinical counseling. Some also have social work degrees as well. “Therapist” is also a term used to describe other kinds of interventions such as physical therapy, occupational therapy, and speech therapy. There are also spiritual counselors, and they have specific training as well. Always ask for the proof of credentials for those that claim to be therapists, social workers, counselor’s or psychologists. Life coaches are not required by law to have credentials and are not governed by a specific ethical code. However they do need to be upfront with their clients because if they missed lead them to think they are the other professions that is where the law will protect you. It’s would be seen as fraud.
Now with all that said and all those cautionary statements, that does not mean that certain life coaches are not helpful. Some are very helpful and some even are better trained in certain areas that they specialize in. That is where HG falls, the superior knowledge holding individual that teaches us, including those of us in the profession. It is rare as you know. I see him as a narcissism expert. He does coach us too. I just have a hard time lumping him into a life coach category because I think he’s beyond life coach. I just don’t know what professional label I would give him in this role. Im sure HG knows what he sees himself as. My guess is “premier narcissism expert”.
Try god. Thanks for that Indy, a useful summary.
Haha, You’re welcome, HurtGod!
Thanks for the explanation, Indy! Glad your having a peaceful weekend! I’m slowly cleaning up my disaster, but need to get some sleep soon!!
HG I will grant you special, extraordinary and even unique, but I’m just not ready to agree to divinity. Perhaps my flaw as an appliance – sturdy and reliable but limited in imagination. I am and will remain a constant and reliable tertiary source, though.
Indy, I totally agree with you. I feel validated too. Besides, he is respectful and not abusive. The knowledge provided on this blog and in his books is straightforward and authentic and all his readers appreciate it. Some unskilled therapists can be quite arrogant and think they know everything and that they have seen it all when this is far from the truth. New readers’ appreciative comments and the growing number of people visiting this blog speak for itself. We are in the XXI century and yet, many people have never heard about narcissism before or they have some misleading information only.
Hi EB,
I completely agree with you on all of your points. It is vital that anyone that practices as a therapist or psychologist needs to have this knowledge firm and honestly need to read HGs work in order to learn how to identify them in order to help protect all clients. It is so prevalent and for decades has not been given the time in formal training. It needs to change. It needs to be required learning. I’m still learning, every time I read the blog and still am hammering away at the skills of identifying.
I’m glad to hear there have been 8 professionals and my supervisor (a seasoned therapist) referred me to HG. I refer all the time too. I will continue to do so. And yes, it is but a drop in the bucket. And finding a good therapist is like going on a hunt for hidden treasure, even for me. That is the unfortunate current state that the mental health world is in at the moment, though I like to believe it is trying to catch up.
Thank you for sharing EB, your testimony of survival and compassion even for unskilled therapists speaks loudly of your strong empathy.
I like that quote EB. I had to learn the hard way to learn that actions speak louder than words. The last midranger solidified that lesson in me.
Indy….
CLAP CLAP….
AGREED
Hi indy…ty for your reply and thoughts on life coaches. Im a big utube watcher and ive come across some exceptionally helpful people but like you said im careful bc they are not trained in psychology. I tend to trust more the ones that will show you their research and back up what they say. One woman in particular will even look up the meaning of a term before she discusses it to make sure she is presenting it properly.
Im a big believer in multifaceted therapy. I read books, blogs, watch u tubes and ive had therapy from psychologists. I had a life coach as well and after a few months realised a few red flags and im pretty sure they are a midrange narc but i could be wrong. I didnt get a good feeling from it and walked away. Youre right you have to go with your gut until you find someone you click with and then hang on for dear life (kinda like what about bob lol!!)
This blog and hgs articles and books have really been a lifesaver. The more ive been here the more it sinks in. The only bad/good part is you cant undo the learning and go back. Once you know the truth its hard to unsee it. Id rather know tho.
I agree there needs to be legislature in regards to life coaches. Not to take away from the good they can do but theres a lot of damaging info that can mess people up further. Some of these coaches charge a lot and they have zero credentials. Idk i have mixed feelings on it. It should be regulated but im not sure how thatd be done.
As for forums they can be really good but youre in a melting pot of many people with many different experiences. Some are narcs who dont know they are, some are borderlines, some are angry victims, some are severely depressed, some physically abused so its best to go in with caution. Ive met some beautiful people on forums and ive met some that have deep issues and basically take from it what helps and leave the rest.
Forgot to add that i agree the best psychologists are those that go to a therapist as well. A popular psychologist said this very thing that if you cant see it in yourself how can you see it in others and help them.
Indy,
I hope you dont mind me asking. Are you licensed as a LMFT or LCSW? I witness the conflicts between the two. (Power) I watched MFCC change to MFT and now LMFT😋 I chose the easy route BSW with minor in psychology. Considered furthering my education through the calwick program. The forgive loans as long as you work within the county at risk programs for 2 years identified by the service planning areas.(SPA)
My former therapist has the same degree as Dr. Quinn and have to work under a licensed psych.
Thank you in advance for your response.
Hi Yolo,
So, I have a masters in psychology (MA) and a separate masters in mental health clinical counseling(MHCC). (They had different requirements with some overlap). I work under supervision of a psychologist.
For counseling in my field, for lisecensure one earns a LAPC and then after supervision for 3 years, then a LPC.
You are correct that there is pecking order issues between the counselors and social workers. Professional Counseling is newer as a field, thus still earning its place.
Good luck in the field, Yolo! If you love it, it’s worth it! I have no regrets. Dept is another thing to consider. Loan Forgiveness is a program I am in too as I work for a very large not for profit, though with Trump and DeVos, this program may disappear. Fingers crossed.
Ok, now. I can reply in right place.
Indy,
Thanks for sharing. I don’t where to reply so I am replying on my own comment. 😊 I am taking a break from social services at the moment.
Yes, depending on whose in office resources are cut and the people needs remain the same or they require more intensive services. It takes a toll on a person working in social services the cuts affect staffing and the funding sources expect more for less.
I witnessed tons of layoff. The staff that remained would complain after agreeing to take on additional responsibilities. I started in MIS, then case management, business services and ended as program manager.
Prior to that I work with families in child protective services. Our goal was to assist with reunification using a multidisciplinary approach/ wraparound services. That was equally rewarding and heartbreaking.
As I continue to heal not only from personal abuse but the highly stressful and volatile work environment. I am looking forward to entering back but I don’t know at what capacity.
Again, Thank you.
Yolo,
The person that has the same degree as me who had to work under a licensed psychologist is doing so most likely because they did not take the EPPP test (the psych license test) that is how you get the title of being a licensed psychologist and you can bill insurance and what not.
After you achieve a PsyD or PhD you must be supervised for a certain amount of Hours and take the EPPP in order to be licensed.
The hours of supervision vary by state.
Ok, that’s probably why he prefer cash. His business card if I recall had some sort of caveat. Thanks for explaining he has a thriving business in Orange County.
Hi Yolo I see you asked me a question last Sunday but I didn’t appear to get any notification – I just stumbled upon your reply to me by accident now, when I was looking up another post. Anyway you might be better asking HG himself which of the Sex and The City characters would he be attracted to and which would be attracted to him……….my guess would be all of them….same answer to both questions…….he could be whoever they wanted him to be, if he so desired and they all would give him some type of fuel, they all have different character traits and could all give residual benefits…..some more than others. I am a novice here though, I don’t feel qualified to respond other than in a light hearted way and I am likely completely wrong……..but I didn’t want you thinking I had ignored you!!!!!! Also it wouldn’t matter if you were attracted to HGs kind or not…….if they decide you are todays Jose Mourinho “the chosen one”…….you will be “the one” …..the only real question is for how long. I can make that statement with confidence because even though you may not find them initially remotely attractive……they have the ability to quickly morph into what you find attractive. Maybe that’s why he dyes his hair so often!!!!! Diva
The first blogs I found when I was reading about NPD were either run by people who did not sound educated about this disorder because they kept using the same rhetoric and old standard checklists. Other sites wanted to charge an arm and a leg for voodoo-esk “cures. The other sites were all hate filled and full of Narc bashing and no one could ask questions.
I found this to be quite distasteful and negligent, especially since I was seeking answers and, in my view, this was very counterproductive towards healing or understanding what I was personally going through and what I could do about it.
These sites only managed to create a mob mentality and yet more people walking around uneducated with what NPD is and how to protect themselves.
I found your blog through a Narc bash site, I won’t mention the name of it, but I’m sure others in here have been in there at least one other time.
Thank you H.G. for the time and energy you give to all the many things you involve yourself in.
Thank you Jody.
Hi HG, I’ve commented on these relationship sites to you and I was reading quite a few before I found you . I just stick with you now although I also look at Sam Vaknin as I believe he’s genuine . That picture on this post is beyond scary . The fact that you reference reptiles quite often freaks me out and it makes me think there might be something in the Reptilian Brain theory . There is definitely one woman narcissist operating out there on the web . Making a bloody fortune and she does everything you say . I had my suspicions about her , it’s her way or the highway and she’s so aggressive if someone disagrees with her or even has an opinion . She is very Pro emotionless and any one that is emotional is labelled bad , clingy , off putting , you name it . According to her emotions are repellent to men all men !!! And emotionless men are that way because women put pressure on them , this is dangerous stuff . She claims her emotionless state is due to spiritual teachings – spiritual teachings my arse – she’s raking the money in and flaunts it all over her site !!!
Now there is a narcissist indeed from what you have described. SV is genuine as he states what he is.
Very interesting, HG. I have no real experience with other online narc sites. The few I came across before yours just struck me as too angry, narrow-minded and repetitive.
I have often seen the dynamics you have described in actual group meetings, however, especially number one and often number two. As they say, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. People come to see themselves as experts, then dismiss what doesn’t fit their own experience. I just racked these instances up as people’s narrow mindedness. I wouldn’t have thought of narcissists necessarily, though.
This does bring home the excellence of this blog. You are informative and educational while allowing us to vent, rant, question, share experiences, console and commiserate with one another – whichever we need at that point in our healing. Yet your many articles provide new topics that prevent us from becoming bogged down and keep us moving forward. Thank you for your patience, tolerance and all the effort and time you put into this blog.
Thank you WS2.
Great Post. Thanks Sir HG Tudor…
This is a very accurate description of my own observations with some useless and confusing Narc pages and groups. People can be so tightly wound and really unkind on some of those sites. Not until I found this site did I develop an understanding of what I had been dealing with for my entire life. The only reason I am involved with another Narcissism abuse program is to address the issues I have and to heal those. As far as real and no bullshit crystal clear info this is the ONLY site anyone would ever need to read.
Thank you Patricia.
I am truly addicted to this site…….both the articles and all of the comments. I came across this site with a view to finding out more about narcissists, but I have equally found out just as much, if not more, about myself. So far, it has been a very steep learning curve for me. I am going nowhere else……everything you need to know is here……in some shape or form………
Thank you Diva.
Once a person finds your blog HG, your work speaks volumes of the authenticity, the accuracy of the facts. You speak to each of us as if you are our Narcissist, the way you describe the dynamics between your kind and my kind.
Your respectful and polite manner, listening and validation from the source, combined with the support system here.
Your words are spreading… she told you a coward stays silent….you are no coward and we are listening.
This is the one place I know he can not have me blocked, I have a voice. I am safe!
Thank you HG!
Thank you Twilight.
Fascinating read, HG! Thank you for addressing this.
You are welcome Mary.
… and to be honest .. I too took revenge on the N .. but I did not break any laws… HE did.. I only showed the authorities the way… so I have a clear conscious.
Breaking NC… guilty of letting him reach me by not being careful… shame on me and the only one that looses … me!
Karma,
I was on the fraud site. One poster shared a site where we could report them and omg once you report they will not take down. I took revenge on the mid and he didn’t see it coming he’s still seeking revenge. I felt bad afterwards and wish I had taken the higher road. But, there’s a part deep down inside that felt some form of satisfaction.
The only way to ensure no contact after disengagement is moving to the moon. Don’t feel guilty at least you were armed this time.
Thanks Yolo!!
Its madness … pure madness .. I feel like I just woke up from a bad dream. I regret many things but not turning him in to the authorities. If you commit a crime .. you will do some time right? The final outcome is not yet here but investigations ongoing.. its tax fraud we are talking about! So I’m relaxing, moving forward and just waiting..
big hug
Karma,
Good for you, you appear to be in a much better place.
The mid was so cocky, I humiliated and expose him to his few supporters and put a halt to some of that positive local press coverage. He’s not a greater but has some greater traits. This has been over a year and its still not over seems like every few months I get a not so friendly reminder.
Hugs😊
Thank you HG for addressing this important issue. I too first landed at a site where the members were bullies, labeling without proof and ranting beyond …and the most sad part was the moderators that were pusnishing the members by counting the NC days…
But what made me leave that site was the fact that members wrote what horrendous crimes they had committed while seeking revenge … and the rest were supporting their behavior. In essence it was worse to break NC than keying cars and stalking the N. So sad to read he members stories about the 6th or 7th N they had been abused by and they did not get support to get out of their situation.
What I like about your site is
– you give answers
– you moderate so only some rants are shown … and you truly support and help.
I’ve seen so many sites that victims have set up and the “books” they have written and even support “programs” that are both expensive and useless.
Thank you for this site, your books and the excellent advice you give. I wish the lost souls at the “other” site would find themselves to your site instead.
This is the true place to find closure and to move further.
Thank you. You and others of course can lead them here.
Yes I left there twice. Was bullied deeply when I was not grasping what was going on. I was in the middle of pure hell, had some personal things in my life that I was at great risk of losing if I had a breakdown from the narc, and my daughter almost died. When I was supposedly not ‘getting it fast enough”, hadn’t established NC, they came after me. Never mind that my contact was only email and meanwhile, they had completely hypoctitical responses to peopel who actually physically returned to their abusers. So I left. But then some things happened and I really needed more support 9 months later. I returned but was paranoid about what I said, very careful and yet I was still attacked a few times and the shame/guilt/attack and paranoia was so high, that you could feel it through the pages. It was disguised as for your own good as sociopaths and dangerous people were constantly trying to infiltrate. But I became more afraid of them than ever. It had a deeply negative affect on how I viewed the Narc I was trying to break free from and negative as it actually wound me up and bound me to him in a greater way. They kept the emotions alive somehow and not sure how. Then one day, someone there posted about one of HG’s videos. I watched a bit but didn’t have the attention span, navigated to this blog, devoured it, left the site and haven’t been back since. I wish I could delete my account, but they truly hold your profile hostage and refuse to delete anything. How is that for victim advocacy??? Isn’t that telling?
The info here helped me to break the emotional cord I had with him. It flipped me into my head and out of my paranoid, afraid, hurt and beaten up emotions I felt from the narc but also from the constant exposure to them via other people on other sites. But there was no shame or guilt or fear directed towards me here that if I wrote about how I still struggled, that I would be punished or reprimanded. I now have almost 6 months of not speaking to the narc. I still wonder about him, glance at his world, but I care less and less and even when the memories of what he did to me hit me, I don’t react and instead of wanting to fight him again, I think of HG, always HG saying don’t do it, that’s exactly what we want and why. So I stay silent, the deep pain is really gone and the flashes are extremely random now. The courage and strength to keep walking away comes from here, not the other sites I found cause I get it now in a way all those other sites could never really help me as they were so bogged down in emotion and bitterness and gang mentality. In some ways, I think this works more because most of us here it seem are relating to HG, not to each other. Only a few times do I see people really interacting with each other and creating relationships, and for some reason, that reduced interaction among the readers and participants are what keeps the emotions and tone down and allowed us to learn I think. Just my opinion though.
This is the one and only forum I am on.
I looked at a few different ones when I started researching narcissism and not one had the knowledge that I was looking for. I have always felt comfortable confessing everything here, asking questions, and interacting with everyone.
People ask me several times a week if I’m on social media and/or forums. I don’t intend to go anywhere but here.
Thanks for a great place to learn and interact HG!
Thank you for being here SW.
I agree Snow, I have shared on this blog more than I do with people I know. It is a safe feeling here.
Hello Ah Oh!
It’s nice to see that you are safely back from all your summer travels. I always enjoy hearing about where in the world you have been.
I truly don’t know where I’d be if I didn’t have here to write about everything that I feel. And no one would have been able to answer all of my questions. I consider myself lucky to be able to interact with the variety of personalities on this site and to observe their perspectives on these relationships. I have learned sooo much.