The Narcissistic Truths – No. 164


103 thoughts on “The Narcissistic Truths – No. 164

  1. Tappan Zee says:

    **Another random thought** what happened to Indy? Will she be back as Indy2 ala Windstorm? I notice people’s absence as much as their presence.

  2. J says:

    I know what you mean. I have seen this very clearly with NarcDad that he becomes a VERY good little boy when I publicly and loudly take a bite out of his ass for crossing lines with me. However, other N very much seemed as though he was “borrowing my moral compass.” Under conditions you describe and others, he would do this in his behavior with me (which might garner fuel). But also, he seemed to use my morality as a residual benefit (in HG parlance) to hide his own missing compass.

    1. SuperXena says:

      Hello J,
      Ups, I do not really understand what you mean by: …”with NarcDad that he becomes a VERY good little boy when I publicly and loudly take a bite out of his ass for crossing lines with me. ” Please expand if you feel like doing so!
      As for what you mention regarding moral compass that resonates with me a lot. I do not think they “borrow” your moral compass but instead YOU ARE their moral compass for the construction of their facade.
      I see them more like being “amoral” instead of being “immoral” if you understand what I mean. They have their own “moral” codes ( which I would call more codes of conduct than “moral ” codes) that shift according to their prime aims.. Interesting topics about moral codes ,moral compass and ethics linked to the Narcissist.

      1. J says:

        Happy to expand. Going NC with my Dad is not possible. Therefore, I have a rule that when/if Dad is cruel to one of my siblings, I let him verbally have it, loudly and publicly. He stops immediately, sulks and has done it less and less in my presence. In the earlier stages, I did it anytime he crossed certain pre-determined lines with me. Now, he never does. In planning my strategy with him, I just had to figure out what incentivized or dis-incentivized his behavior. I decided the boundaries of what I would and wouldn’t put up with and then enforced them relentlessly and… ruthlessly.

        Just as an aside, I ran across an ethics study recently that showed ethical behavior (defined most “pragmatic”) was much MORE LIKELY to be chosen by those who measured high in NPD! I think you’re right. They’re not IMmoral so much as do not let emotion get in the way of pragmatic decision. My N (not Dad LOL) was actually VERY useful when I had a decision of this variety to make.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello J,
          Thanks for sharing!
          1. I understand that you still have to interact with your father. It must have been exhausting for you at the early stages trying to find out what incentivised or dis-incentivised him. It seems you have an effective strategy now! Isn’t it exhausting having to still mark your boundaries? You have taken a tough but honourable roll in protecting your siblings!
          Have you found some new strategies from the information given here and through HG’s books when dealing with your Narc Dad?

          2. As for the study you mentioned ,I would really like to read it! If the link to that is allowed by HG. It would be very interesting to know in which “area “this study is based on. I am just assuming that since it is more pragmatic oriented (decision taking) it is more business related.? Would be very interesting to see how they define /mean by ethical behaviour that leads them to that conclusion!
          I am of the belief that ( as I once discussed with HG) ethics are defined by the moral codes of the /a prevailing group.

          What is ethical for some like i.ex. the decisions taking by big enterprises of making big cuts on the work labour without any regards of the persons affected because they are following the “ethics” of the company : that is to say taking the decisions thar are best for the company in order to cut costs and increase profit. Or many other examples as why is ethical or unethical in some cultures/countries issues like: death penalty,abortion,immigration quotes, euthanasia etc. The list is long.Why is it allowed in some countries/ cultures and not in some? Who is the prevailing group dictating the “moral codes”?
          It all depends on the moral codes of the prevailing group dictating and defining the “ethics”on that particular area.
          This is on a “macro” level.
          On the more micro and personal level: I still believe there are certain moral principles that prevail within oneself that not necessarily agree ( equate) with the ethics dictated by a prevailing group. Moral principles that are different depending on which “side of the fence “you are.Fortunately( according to me) these moral principles that still prevail within the no narcissist group prevail, giving balance to this “crazy” world.
          3. Interesting that you found your ex “useful” when getting advice on certain decisions. If you feel like sharing again: can you give an example of his advice you found helpful? Was it business oriented or more personal oriented? Or both?

      2. J says:

        1. I think it was mainly instinctual, but I really just put myself fully in my Dad’s shoes (Wants fuel, hates being humiliated) and used that knowledge to wrangle him. It is exhausting, so contact is kept to a minimum. My Dad was already well handled by the time I discovered HG. HG much more helpful with other N.
        2. Not sure which field it comes from, but here is it. Apologies it was ASPD, not NPD
        3. My ex was SO helpful when it came to business decisions or even personal ones where I was tied up in the emotion. He could cut right through and say, “Do x because of y.” It certainly provided a very useful, stripped-down perspective. In fact… he actually let me “borrow” his narcissism brain to work on strategies for various things. (Impress someone, make a needed business connection, outwit a colleague, etc.) He was the best strategist I’ve ever seen!

  3. SuperXena says:

    What is under the surface I wouldn’t call it “repulsive”(distasteful ).
    I see it more like to be repelled or driven/ forced to back or go away because it is hazardous, damaging or sometimes even lethal .

  4. Deneene says:

    Do you endure devalument or discard? How long have you been together..? Are you the Primary, or just a secondary..?

    1. Deneene says:

      this is a question for Jenna….

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi deneene,

        I escaped.

        There was no malign devalue.

        There were some arguments where he blame shifted, deflected, projected, denied, lied, topic changed, all followed by an apology later that day, the next day, or in a few days telling me he didn’t mean it.

        I was ipps for 2.5 yrs. Post hoover, i am regarded by him as ipss (though we are not intimate) for almost 1.5 yrs now. Total is almost 4 yrs.

      2. Jenna says:

        Correction to the above. I was ipps for the first half of the 2.5 yrs, but for the second half of that time prd i may have been ipps or ipss. During the 2nd half of the time prd, he had an niss who would text him daily. He also was looking for casual sex partners online, which i found out abt post escape.

        1. Deneene says:

          Doesn’t your heart just break from his behavior? Or do you have to continually apply cold hard logic…?

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi deneene,

            My heart no longer breaks frm his behavior because he is good to me. Sometimes when he denies or shifts topic i get annoyed, not sad. Depending on my mood, either i tell him, or i just let it go. I guess u can say i apply cold hard logic when i engage with him. There is no other way w a narc.

          2. Jenna says:

            Other than nc of course.

  5. Deneene says:

    So, you believe you have a workable arrangement with your narc?

    1. Deneene says:

      this is a question for Jenna…..

      1. Jenna says:

        Deneene, lovely name btw😊
        Thx for clarifying. I had not realized the question was for me.

        Yes, i believe my ex mid and i have a workable arrangement NOW. But it took ALOT of talking (texting actually since that’s what we both prefer), months of time, and certain realizations to get to this point.

        Basically, we don’t talk abt the past because i’ve beaten that to death enough. I also got remorse frm him which i wanted, even though it might be fake.
        He has suffered many consequences due to his actions, which is forcing him to change.

        I don’t ask him if he has a new gf anymore either. I no longer want to know.
        We talk abt his career, his long term goals, movies, cooking, his family, philosophy, parts of my life which i want to share w him, fashion lol, my feelings if any of my friends said something hurtful to me. He offers suggestions or guides me through relaxation breathing exercises sometimes😂

        Keep in mind i do not meet him. He lives out of state. He wanted to visit me but i refused. I know that wounded him because he immediately became defensive after that. But i explained to him that if i see him, we may be intimate again, and i can’t let that happen. My emotions would take over. I’m tired of games, so i just tell him the honest truth.

        We are in communication via text only, and sometimes by phone. I do not prefer phone though, because over phone, he tends to shut down. When texting, he is more expressive. He texts me abt once a month, and i know the frequency will decrease as time goes by. I would be satisfied if i hear frm him every few months. We talked abt this too. Neither of us want to lose touch, but we realize we should not engage w each other too often, or else the past will inevitably be brought up again, and painful memories will surface.

        He knows he needs to be good to me. He knows i’m so sensitive that if he does something mean, i would talk abt it with someone, and he doesn’t want that.

        Since i don’t have much contact with him, my fuel will not become stale, and there will be no need to devalue me. Hg has an article abt this.

        Thank u for reading deneene.

  6. J says:

    I think I have to agree Analise. I had a pretty clear picture of the monster underneath for a long while but it was the use of the deceptive facade that made me finally “later days” him.

  7. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    I could accept him. He couldn’t accept himself and he couldn’t accept me. Those were some of the main problems. Other ones of course would be the selfishness, the put downs, all the passive aggresssive shit, the lack of attention, the lies, the criticism … I could go on and on.

    1. Noname says:

      You are very right, Doctor. If you can’t accept yourself, you can’t accept anyone.

      That was the very first thing my husband started to do with himself. I told him, that without self-acceptance we would go to nowhere. It wasn’t easy for him, but he did it finally. Then he accepted me and then I accepted him.

  8. SuperXena says:

    … very ad hoc image writing on the water’s surface ….like a mirror..if I see what you “write ” there what I can see is only the reflection of myself on the a mirror.You are mirroring me and my world..

    1. SuperXena says:

      …Just clarifying : I meant “you” referring to the narcissist in general building up the façade …

  9. Jenna says:

    Reading this caused my breath to choke at my throat for a second. It is painful to read.

    I do not believe u are repulsive beneath. Yes, u are devoid of certain emotions and lack empathy. Many normals have very low empathy. My sig. other is a good example. Yes, you may have the cold dead stare when u are not mirroring. Yes, u require fuel all the time. Though, u may be surprised that without fuel, u may still be able to function. You may feel restless at first, but your body may adjust to it with some coping mechanism.

    When i fell in love w my ex narc, i fell in love w HIM. Now i know he was mirroring me, that he was not real. He was not real? His love was not real? So does that mean i should stop loving him? I only love to receive real love in return? No.

    I will always love him. Many pple will think this is weak of me, that i need to protect myself. Yes, i do protect myself. I have taken the necessary steps. But i loved HIM, and i still do, even without the facade.

    Because we both know he is a narc now, he allows his mask to slip often. I am not repulsed by what lies underneath. I try to understand why he is this way.

    Pls keep in mind there are no kids involved, no impregnation, no child abuse, no physical violence, no name calling, no insults, no condescending, so my view is of course affected by this.

    1. Jenna says:

      Though i do not receive love frm him, nor did i ever since it was fake, i do receive something frm him in return. So pls do not think i am claiming that i am selfless. I receive his presence in return. We are in contact via text, whenever he texts me.

      Some pple will state that his presence should not be enough, that i deserve more. Yes, in an ideal world, i deserve more. But this world is not ideal. Pple have been abused, and narcs are a result of abuse. I loved HIM. He turned out to be a narc. His love was not real. He was not real. But what lies beneath is real. It is still present and has a heart beat. The real self has not died. If i can love his false self, then i would feel guilty if i didn’t love his real self.

      1. Kimi says:

        Dear Jenna,

        You are so sweet and pure! I’m glad that your Narc did not destroy these traits!

        Ideally, I can and do love my Narc because he is a spiritual being living a human experience. As a spiritual being, I feel that love and connection with him. However, as a human being I am horrified by his behavior and the monster that he is. Have you not seen the creature within your Narc? How do you reconcile that dichotomy and your love for him? Still searching within myself…

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi kimi,

          I like the way u worded that: “As a spiritual being i feel that love… As a human being i am horrified… ”

          I have seen my ex’s mask slip many times. When his mask slips, he is boring as hell, has the cold dead stare, blank expressions, and the switch is off. But he was barely ever angry, save two or three occasions. The anger manifested as him raising his voice. An apology would follow later that day, the next day, or after a few days.

          He was arrogant, and exhibited many narcissistic behaviors like future faking, blame shifting, deflecting, topic change, denial, projection. Is that the creature? Or is that him trying to protect the creature?

          I hated these behaviors and explained how much they hurt me. He stopped the future faking and blame shifting immediately after that. He has more trouble stopping the topic change and denial. In his mind, he truly believes he is a good person, and therefore denies certain behaviors eg. when i asked him if he is confused abt doing what is right and wrong.

          I see a confused man struggling through life. I feel sad for him. He has said or texted the following to me over time.

          Before the formal relationship:
          I think i don’t know how to talk to pple.

          During the formal relationship as ipps:
          I don’t miss pple

          After we sort of broke up:
          I don’t have emotions

          I lost my identity

          This world is not for me

          There’s something not right w me

          Post escape, hoover, and re-establishment of the relationship as friends:

          I feel an inactiveness of mind. Coffee helps a little.

          Why am i losing my memory, like turning off the stove, or finding my way home? (he is not even 30 yet).
          (Sam vaknin says memory loss happens to narcs during depression)

          All u will see is ur reflection.

          Fake it til u make it.

          Why is my heart always burning?

          I don’t know how to react to pple.

          I’m socially awkward.

          I’m losing common sense.

          Sometimes i feel like a robot. It’s not normal.

          These may be pity plays. Who knows. But i still feel sad for him. I still love him, perhaps partly due to feeling sad for him? Idk.

          I also see him trying to change. When i tell him something he said hurt me, he tries not to repeat it. My anger for him has dissipated due to his (fake?) remorse, trying to improve himself, etc.

          I hope that partly answers ur question.

          1. J says:

            The memory issues Jenna mentioned pique my interest. I would love to hear in detail about the full-on meltdown of an N in crisis. I’ve seen memory loss, paranoia, increased difficulty with forming sentences and lethargy in mine. I’d love to know more about what is typical… not least because the leader of my country (ugh…) has NPD.

          2. SuperXena says:

            Hello J,
            I find your question about the narcissist responding to external moral direction interesting. They do not respond dictated by any moral direction. They will keep on doing it as long as they get an emotional reaction from you thus obtaining fuel. That is to say that you are still ” important” in their fuel matrix if you keep on giving fuel to them by reacting emotionally. What I noticed with my ex narcissist was that when I told him without any emotional reaction/neutral (= no fuel) or ignoring it ( = no fuel) he stopped doing it. That is to say that the way of saying it( delivering the message) or ignoring it is decisive when “fuelling ” them or not.
            They do not understand moral direction…it is their quest of fuel that dictates if they keep on doing it or not.

          3. Jenna says:

            Hi Superxena,

            My ex mid was the opposite. The more negative fuel i supplied to him eg. by crying, the more he wanted to stop his behavior that led to that. He hated it when i cried, because he saw it as me shifting blame towards him.

            Some behaviors were more difficult for him to control, like stating he can do whatever he likes, which sometimes made me cry. If he felt compelled to say it and it made me cry, he would simply withdraw. He would not want to absorb the negative fuel. He felt it was me challenging him and blaming him. He hates blame and challenge.

          4. SuperXena says:

            Hello Jenna!
            Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I usually write very straight forward so I hope my comments do not hurt your feelings (sensing you as a very sensible person).
            1. I seems that you “know” the man you are talking about is a narcissist but are you AWARE of it? That is to say: according to you what makes him a narcissist?
            2. I do not know how your interaction with him was and where you were placed on his fuel matrix. In regard of what you tell about him stopping making you cry it could be because:
            a) He stopped with that because he had OTHER ways of manipulating you/provoking you which were far more potent /more difficult to provoke in you (giving him more “reward’/fuel) . Specially if you cried very easily and for almost everything .To provoke you crying was too easy ,looking instead to provoke other emotional reactions in you than crying.
            b) He stopped doing that because he found irritating to see you (or anyone) crying. Narcissists see a person that cries as weak and pathetic and despise them.
            He stopped not because he felt sorry for you but because he didn’t get anything from it.
            Best wishes

          5. Jenna says:

            Hi superxena,

            I appreciate ur comments and i am not hurt at all. To answer ur questions:

            1)yes, my ex is a mid-range narcissist. Hg has confirmed this.

            2a) yes i do cry easily – in sad times, in loving times. Ur point is valid. However, the only other negative fuel he received frm me was when i would argue. He hated that as well because it is challenge fuel. He would usually withdraw. My ex prefers positive fuel over negative fuel. He esp likes pple who make him laugh.

            2b) I know he did not feel sorry for me when i cried. Hg answered in the comments section when i inquired, that my ex saw the crying as a sort of blame shifting towards him and thus did not like it.

            Thx superxena.

          6. SuperXena says:

            Hello Jenna,
            Thank you and I am glad I do not hurt your feelings with my comments.
            Yes, I understand that HG has explained to you that your ex is a mid-ranger abusive narcissist. I was most interested in knowing what YOU think and how you feel.
            So I will ask you the question more directly: do YOU feel abused by your ex?
            The thing is that when you have been subject to a continuous abuse, you lose the reference of a non abusive ( healthy / normal) state, turning to be the state of abuse your “normal” state. That is what they do.The abuser by “training “you with manipulative behaviour makes you lose your normal healthy boundaries of self respect . This is even more addictive if you are a person that reacts mainly driven by emotions. They drive you to high and lows even more pronounced making the addiction even deeper. Such a highly emotional person would need instead a man that makes her/him more balanced making these high and lows less pronounced and not the opposite..

            Of what I read, I think you feel that you owe him something. Even if he has many problems( something that I doubt )that is not your problem, it is his problem.
            The only one ( according to me) you owe something to is yourself!
            You owe ourself a piece of mind and taking care of yourself and not him.
            You speak all the time about what they need , what they like, what makes them “happy”/angry etc. But isn’t time to ask yourself what YOU need and what you want?
            I was “stuck” like you somewhere in my process of escaping him ( which I finally did) making excuses of why I stayed or why I couldn’t leave him .
            Until I realised that my feelings for him were not real love but an addiction. Until I realised that he did not give me what I needed: real love.
            I hope that with my comments I can push you a little bit into the right direction, but it is only you the one that has to decide and realise that this direction is the best for YOU.

          7. SuperXena says:

            *typo* I meant of course PEACE OF MIND*
            …”The only one ( according to me) you owe something to is yourself!
            You owe yourself PEACE of mind and taking care of yourself and not him.”

          8. Jenna says:

            Hi superxena,

            I do not feel abused by my ex mid-ranger any longer.

            I did when we were together, due to the narcissistic covert behaviors i mentioned. I never faced a true devaluation, but i knew something was off, so i escaped. I disliked him at the time.

            He hoovered in a frenzied manner for abt a wk, then periodic recurring hoovering for abt 2.5 months. I ignored him, but i hated ignoring. I felt stuck.

            During this time, a family member found his online casual sex profiles. By now, my dislike turned to hate.

            B4 my escape, we had already kind of ‘broken up,’ and he was not obliged to be faithful to me, but we had continued to see each other, and had trouble controlling intimacy (but did not have penetrative sex). So i did not exactly feel betrayed, but rather i felt disgusted. The websites disgusted me, and I felt like this person who i had been with for 2.5 yrs was leading a secret double life. I alerted two of his niss’s of his online profiles because i wanted to warn them, esp because one of them was up for promotion to ipss. Another reason i alerted them was because i hated him, and i wanted him to feel some repercussions for his behavior and hopefully change.

            After a few wks, i hated hating him. I felt stuck.

            Then i found hg. I started to understand. Hg promotes no contact, but my need to understand him, us, was too persistent.

            I finally replied to ex’s hoovers. I went thru many back and forths frm questioning, to blocking, to unblocking, to criticizing, and finally to understanding his childhood abuse, his narcissism, and his difficulty in making the right choices, driven by the need for fuel. Even if the particular childhood abuse i predicted is a lie, he is a narc so he did suffer some form of childhood abuse and/or neglect. That made me sad. It also made me regret informing his niss abt his online profile.

            My ex was depressed. He wanted one thing frm me – friendship. I told him i would think abt it, and accepted it abt a wk later. I decided to forgive him. He was so thankful to me, and said he felt like he has a new life.

            In our friendship, i talk to him abt his behavior, abt narcissism, how he can improve himself, how he need not feel so down all the time. I try to understand. He uses pity plays often to gain sympathy. I have reason to believe that his depression was real, partly due to the exposure for which i feel responsible. I don’t mind giving him sympathy. I just hate giving negative fuel, but luckily he doesn’t like receiving it frm me either. So it works out. My boundaries are a little reduced, since i accept denial frm him on occasion. At times i point it out. Other times i don’t. If i feel unsettled abt something, believe me i discuss it. The other narc behaviors he barely exhibits, because my interaction w him is so infrequent.

            He provides me w a listening ear, a feeling of being important, a sense of humour, good advice, and he cheers me up if i’m down.

            Finally, i no longer feel stuck. I feel at peace. My heart will always love my ex. But i limit my interaction w him since i know what he’s capable of frm past behavior.

            Superxena, i just hated hating. It’s a terrible place to be. I felt like i ‘wasted’ almost 3 yrs of my life w ex. I didn’t want to feel that way. We have been thru so much together and now know each other so well, perhaps better than others do. I could not just throw that away.

            Now, my relationship w him is in the form of a non intimate, intermittent friendship. He is not mean to me any longer. He knows i will not tolerate it.

            But still, i don’t meet him, because i fear becoming intimate w him. So i do protect myself. He is trying to change. I can easily see that. He has also stopped the casual sex, out of shame.

            It took us 1.5 yrs to achieve this peace. We went thru different feelings, various realizations, and finally an understanding of what works best for us. We did not give up on each other.

            We have a good understanding btwn us now. It is where i needed to be w him in order to feel at peace.

            Thank u superxena.

          9. Jenna says:

            Hello J,

            I hope u are having a nice day.

            You stated:
            “I’ve seen memory loss, paranoia, increased difficulty with forming sentences and lethargy in mine.”

            I’ve witnessed this too, except for the difficulty in forming sentences.

            When my ex was depressed post escape and exposure to a few pple (abt his online behavior), he would self isolate. He wanted to move to a remote location, where he would have to interact w nobody. It is because he felt shame frm the exposure. He felt suicidal.

            He did not like looking in mirrors, despite being extremely good looking. He said he does not like what he sees. For the same reason, he stopped taking pics. B4, he used to take hundreds of selfies.

            He experienced memory loss like forgetting his keys, forgetting to turn off the stove, forgetting where he parked, and forgetting his way home. He said he is losing common sense.

            His narcissistic behaviors of blame shifting and denial reduced dramatically. Topic shift reduced only a little. But mostly, he was willing to answer all questions that i had. The answers may have been lies. But before the meltdown, he usually did not like answering questions regarding any wrong doing. I had to constantly ask over and over. I guess u could say he became more cooperative during meltdown.

            Also during depression, his grandiosity plummeted. B4, he used to think he could accomplish anything. During meltdown, he told me that he is a failure (despite having a great career and future ahead of him).

            He definitely displayed more paranoia. Since he was exposed to a few pple, he now thinks everyone knows, and he thinks everone is talking abt him.

            He did become more lethargic. A common friend saw him and told me that he lost alot of weight. He himself told me that eating has become secondary. He stopped going to the gym for a few months. He used to go regularly.

            I think his mirroring skills reduced. He said ‘i don’t know how to react to pple.’ It may be frm a sudden drop in fuel.

            After abt 8 months, he is slowly recovering frm the depression. He said he is trying, and that he can do it if he puts his mind to it. Or, he has a new intimate source. Who knows. I no longer want to know nor care because he will get bored of her in no time anyways.

            He is not isolating himself any longer. His memory is back to normal. He started taking a few pics. His narcissistic behavior of denial has returned. He still has paranoia though. I think it will not leave him following the exposure. And he still feels his common sense is reduced after all of this. It is still a daily struggle for him. His outlook on life has completely changed after exposure.

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        Jenna — i have read elsewhere not all NPD is caused by abuse. i do not agree. and i have zero evidence. the experience i have would suggest the contrary. both my parents are/or were narcs. one is dead vs recovered in the were tense:) i was pretty pissed to read that. i also BELIEVE they were subject to abuse. tho my very alive parent (mother) simply has zero i mean zero ability to accept blame, fault or criticism & i can only attribute her ways to possible abuse. my “empath” crap goes: oh this that and the other. poor her. i have no idea if she was. my father was far more transparent and so was his family. riddled with alcoholism. harder to “hide” the abuse and i still give my father way more “credit” than my mother. back to my point. the narc you are ensnared by will get away with hurting you. forever. if you keep putting his alleged or real abuse first. it’s a free pass to say: here i am to suck all of your pain out. you are not a sponge. you cannot save or fix him. the universe isnt ordered this way. our disordered thinking and feeling tells us that. i do very much appreciate your honesty. i hurt for you. i ache for you. i know you. the very same train tracks you’re tied to, i have flung myself on as well. it’s conned me. i have said, done and thought: this is on me. i flung myself in front of the train. not him. he cannnot help he is a train (he can, he won’t) i hate the truth too. we can help it. we can untie ourselves and step off. the world doesn’t get why it is so hard. they blame us too. we agree we are to blame. it is not true. we are not. i hope you see and know your worth one day. which does not negate his. i battle that as well. like oh it i put myself first i will be “killing” him or them or whoever. no. it won’t. it will stop killing you. that is all. and that is a shitton. nobody gets to abuse you. the day you believe that is the day shit gets real. hard.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi TZ,

          I am sorry to learn that both ur parents are narcs. It must have been difficult for u. And pls accept my condolences for the loss of ur father.

          Pls see my reply to deneene on this page. I do not allow my narc to hurt me any longer. I have taken precautions so u need not hurt nor ache for me. I am at a peaceful place w him. I know i cannot save nor fix him. But I can help him realize when he is being hurtful. And i can help him understand his feelings that are related to narcissism.

          I like that he is there for me when i need him. All i have to do is pick up my phone. And similarly, i am there for him when he needs me. I also realize that can change anytime since he is a narc after all. That is why i try not to be too emotionally invested these days. I have come a long way since i first joined this blog. I could barely function without him then. I am at a much better place now. Ty TZ.

          1. J says:

            I’m curious about this idea of the N responding to external moral direction, as Jenna described. I have noticed this with mine too. If I said, “Hey, X hurt me. Don’t do it again.” He would stop or at least seem like he was trying to stop. The problems were: 1. He sucked at it and always kept doing it; 2. I got tired of having to remind him to be a basic decent human being; and 3. Every now and then he would use what he knew hurt me, TO hurt me.
            Why would an N even try to stop hurtful behavior if they have zero empathy AND you’re not super important in the fuel matrix?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It would only be stopped if the narcissist saw a benefit in doing so, not because you gave moral direction.

          3. Jenna says:

            J, like hg stated, my ex must have seen some benefit in keeping me happy.

          4. Jenna says:

            Hello J,

            U stated that u would say something like: “Hey, X hurt me. Don’t do it again.” U also stated that he fell back to his old ways many times.

            Pls remember that a narc does not want to be controlled. The phrase “don’t do it again” is a command.

            Though i did not know my ex was a narc then, i knew that a command won’t work. I knew that it is best for two pple to work together when a conflict arises.

            This is the approach i took w his future faking (i didn’t know it was called future faking then). I decided to be completely honest, though the dating channel i was watching on youtube said i must not show any neediness. But i was tired of games.

            Me: when we make plans and u cancel the night b4 or a few hrs b4, it really hurts me. U know how much i love u and i look fwd to seeing u. I end up getting a panic attack. I know i’m too emotional but i’m trying to work on it. What do u think the solution to this is? Something that works for both of us.

            Him: i never want to hurt u. Sometimes i just don’t know what i’m doing until that day

            Me: but is that fair to me? I started cleaning up the house, i got dinner ordered.

            Him: u don’t have to do all that. U know i’m not picky abt what i eat.

            Me: i want to do it. Guests should be treated well.

            Him: i don’t want u to get panic attacks because of me.

            Him: how abt we don’t plan in advance any more?

            Me: but then i won’t know when i’ll see u next

            Him: u’ll see me. Just order a nice dinner and invite me over

            Me: It’s worth a try i guess. If it doesn’t work, can we try a different solution? Dw, it should be a solution that we’re both comfortable with.

            Him: yea. I just want u to be happy.

            After that, i never suffered a panic attack frm him future faking again. We worked through it. As long as i explain it to him in detail, and as long as i don’t command him, he will usually come up w a solution.

          5. J says:

            You said: “Pls remember that a narc does not want to be controlled. The phrase “don’t do it again” is a command.”
            I have found that BOTH of my narcs respond and responded well to my drawing this rigid boundary and making clear there’s the line. Do not cross it. First, it is not controlling to make crystal clear that I am person who deserves to be treated with respect. Second, you’re right. They don’t like being controlled. Therefore, when I respond to THEIR bad behavior with a dis-incentive or something they hate, they actually DO respond by treating me with the respect I have demanded.

          6. Jenna says:

            Hi J,

            U stated in ur earlier comment:

            “If I said, ‘Hey, X hurt me. Don’t do it again.’ He would stop or at least seem like he was trying to stop. The problems were: 1. He sucked at it and always kept doing it; 2. I got tired of having to remind him to be a basic decent human being; and 3. Every now and then he would use what he knew hurt me, TO hurt me.”

            I was simply responding to that. My ex usually never repeats a behavior that hurts me if i explain it to him in detail. So i was just sharing my experience.

            In ur 2nd comment u stated “I have found that BOTH of my narcs respond and responded well to my drawing this rigid boundary and making clear there’s the line.”

            I am a little confused. Is ur method working for u as u state in ur 2nd comment, or is not working, as u state in ur first comment?

            U also stated in ur 2nd comment “First, it is not controlling to make crystal clear that I am person who deserves to be treated with respect.”

            I agree with this completely. I also believe in order to be treated w respect, one must go abt it in a way that encourages the person u r dealing with. This will yield optimal results.

            For example, if somebody told me to stop doing something in a commanding manner, i may not stop. I would consider it bossy. But if he explains to me why i should stop a behavior, and works w me to figure out a solution, then i would more likely agree.

            So we are both after the same end goal – to be treated w respect. I just utilize what will work best w the person involved. And if that means not issuing a command, and rather work together to find a solution, so be it. Then both parties can feel satisfied at the result.

          7. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna…..I like to read about the relationship you have with your narc…..Windstorm2 has a similar story in that she manages this feat too…..I like a change from my norm. However, I can’t see myself or many others on this blog ever getting to that stage with their particular narcs and to be quite honest I would not want to……but that doesn’t make me judgemental or stop me being interested in your way of life, especially if it works for you. One size does not fit all, for empaths or narcs….although I am now playing it by the HG book….in my own case, the benefits are definitely not worth the risks……….Diva

          8. Jenna says:

            Hi diva, thank u for showing interest in my story.

            My path is not for everyone, esp if children are involved, if the narc tries to get away frm paying child support, is absent as a good father, abuses children, exhibits heated fury, if he belittles u, is malign, threatening, takes ur finances, revels in negative fuel, leaves u in the cold etc.
            So i definitely don’t recommend it because i know many here have narcs who behave as above.

            Thank u for being non-judgemental. U can read my story on this page in my responses to deneene, tappan zee, and J.

            If u think the benefits are not worth the risks, then it is best u stay away. I myself felt the benefits outweighed the risks. Who knows, that may change though.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Your emotional thinking continues to blind you.

          10. Jenna says:

            Hi hg, i know u feel that way. But we are emotional beings after all. How can i just turn my emotions off esp when he’s nice to me?

            I am far less emotionally invested than i used to be. And hey, can i get some credit for not initiating texts nor meeting him? Yes i reply to his texts, but that contact is so infrequent (monthly) that there will be no need to devalue, yes?

            My ex is not malign hg. He is a person w many prblms. If everyone abandoned him for those prblms, some which are difficult for him to control, though he tries, he would have nobody left. I can’t do that to him. I loved HIM hg, not just my reflection. But if he ever hurts a child, i’m done w him. For good.

            The ironic part is i kind of hated him post escape, for the blame shifting etc. But after reading here, i started to understand him, and i eventually forgave him. I am sure u realize that ur writings will compel most pple to go no contact. And i am sure u realize that it may compel a minority of pple, like me, to understand, feel pity, forgive, and maintain some contact.

            My dear G, i am so emotional rn. I feel like giving u a big hug just for being here for us. A really tight one! (I know u’ll hate it!)

            That was too emotional for me to write out.

            Let’s switch to humour. What brand of selfie stick do u own hg, for filming ur erotica? 😄

          11. HG Tudor says:

            No, it is not switching off your emotions, it is regulating your emotional thinking.

            “My ex is not malign hg. He is a person w many prblms. If everyone abandoned him for those prblms, some which are difficult for him to control, though he tries, he would have nobody left. I can’t do that to him. I loved HIM hg, not just my reflection. But if he ever hurts a child, i’m done w him. For good.” – He is a narcissist who is repeatedly conning you. Your innate desire to heal and to fix means you keep thinking that he has all these problems and you feel sorry for him. This is your emotional thinking which is causing you to think this. If you developed some rigour to your logic you would recognise that these problems are a device to keep you invested in the relationship with him, but you do not. Instead, your emotional thinking surges and you believe that this is the reality that you have to operate in. I know you will not accept what I am telling you because your emotional thinking has such a hold on you that it is rejecting the logic. It is similar to how a narcissist’s self-defence mechanism always ensures that our alternative perspective remains in place.

            When you say you feel pity, forgive and maintain some contact, that is your emotional thinking conning you into continuing to engage. You have NO need to engage with him, but your addiction to him means your emotional thinking keeps telling you to engage. With some people this is done by wanting answers, with others it is wanting to resolve the problems, with others it is about anger and getting one over the narcissist and giving them a piece of your mind – all of these are manifestations of emotional thinking because it wants you to keep connected to the narcissist.

            I do not use a selfie stick as I explained previously. I fail to see the humour in repeating that question.

          12. J says:

            @Jenna @HG
            I second HG.

          13. Jenna says:

            Hello hg,

            I do accept what u r telling me. I try to regulate my emotional thinking, but cannot do so all of the time. It’s very difficult for me. I am a VERY emotional person.

            I actually shed a few tears the other day because i was missing clarece so much. I was not bawling, but a few tears fell down my cheek.

            But i can tell u this. I feel like texting him, but i don’t. I think that’s definitely a positive step.

            Regarding selfie stick joke (or non-joke in ur opinion). Noted. I will stop, maybe.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            I know you understand what I tell you Jenna, the fundamental difference is applying it and you struggle to do so. It is not a criticism, it is merely a fact. Many, many people are like you and of course that is all the better for my kind, it means you remain stuck and ensnared.
            Yes, not texting him is a positive step.

          15. Jenna says:

            Hello hg,

            Thank you for recognizing my positive step. I would like to point out that a 20 min texting session approx once a month is not a significant amt of time in my life. So much happens in a month that such infrequent communication renders him inconsequential in day to day activities. Also, when he does text, i often don’t reply to him until hrs later or the next day, depending on what i’m doing. And i’m usually the one to end the texting, after abt 20 min. Of course, i could text him anytime. He always replies promptly. But i choose not to.

            My heart is still ensnared, because i feel sad for him and i still love him. But frm the actions that i choose, i no longer feel deeply ensnared.

          16. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna……I just read your post and HGs response to it……Just like you, I have argued my point about my own emotional thinking with HG in the past. However I now see it in this manner…… I feel he is trying to tell us that our “emotional thinking” is our creature……..we need to tame it, control it and eliminate it, certainly in the instances whereby it’s presence will ultimately hurt us……just as he has done himself!!!……Diva

          17. HG Tudor says:

            It is not your creature. It is correct that you need to exert control over it and heighten your use of logic to defend yourself and that necessitates putting in place measures to ensure that logic is heard, listened to and acted on before emotional thinking swamps you.

          18. Diva says:

            Emotional Thinking…….creature or not……you have made me realise that I have lived under it’s control my whole life from as far back as I can recall……’s time to break free from it, whatever the hell it is……..Diva

          19. HG Tudor says:

            Well absolutely you can give it whatever name you wish Diva since you clearly recognise the need to break free from it. I distinguish reference to The Creature to avoid any confusion amongst readers.

          20. Diva says:

            I understand!!!…..Diva

          21. Diva says:

            Jenna…..I also meant to say…..I think that “tight hug” comment made him a tad tetchy…..I hate hugs myself……and tight ones are the worst kind…..and being forewarned that you are getting one, is a double whammy… then there is time to think about it!!!!…..Diva

          22. Jenna says:

            Lol diva!

            Yes maybe the tight hug put him off big time.

            But i think he gets frustrated w me due to my emotional thinking. Or maybe i’m wrong because he doesn’t really care abt any of us after all.

            All i can say is this. I met my ex narc. I wish i never had. But what’s done is done. At least now i know never to get involved w a narc again, because i know what kind of effect one can have on me. He is my first and last narc. And this is precisely the reason i am not going to get involved w the narc i met in grp therapy, though he’s so tempting lol.

            But in all honesty, ex narc is far more interesting than my non-narc.

          23. Diva says:

            Hey Jenna…….by his own admission HG does not care… should be more obedient!!!!!… know…….just like I am!!!!!!!!

            “But in all honesty, ex narc is far more interesting than my non-narc”…..I remember stating this too…….however the more I read here on this blog……the less interesting my narcs have become……..Diva

          24. Jenna says:

            Hi diva,

            “… you should be more obedient!!!!!… know…….just like I am!!!!!!!!”

            Hehe, thx for the laugh!!

            We all know u r becoming less n less obedient by the day!😄

            U even said u were bored of the naughty step!😅

            I was worried u may get punished for that statement!

          25. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna…… “We all know u r becoming less n less obedient by the day!”…….Believe it or not I am really trying here……maybe I should quit trying so hard since no one is actually noticing!!!!!!……..Ahhh yes…..the boring naughty step comment……HG probably has a punishment tally chart in his head……just because he hasn’t reacted to it doesn’t mean it has been forgotten about!!!!!……… Diva

          26. robins359 says:

            You crack me up!!

          27. Jenna says:


            Ur right! Hg might compartmentalize ur ‘boring’ naughty step comment for later use!! He is a greater after all! Yikes! 😅😄

          28. Diva says:

            Yes…he has no doubt added it to the ever growing list……I do try to be good…….but I am good at being bad……that’s always been my problem!!!!!…………..Diva

          29. robins359 says:

            Mae West said it best “when I’m good, I’m good but when I’m bad, I’m better”! YUP That’s me!😈

          30. Diva says:

            Hey RS… why doesn’t that surprise me?????……Diva

          31. robins359 says:

            When people say to me “be good”, I always say, “why would I want to do that? That’s no fun!!”

      3. Erin says:

        Ok now I just have to ask, HG: what is your view on hugs?
        do you enjoy them/perceive them as fuel when they are a sincere manifestation of affection, or do you find them annoying?
        Do you find them physically uncomfortable or pleasant?
        Hugs with people one is attracted to are different, of course, as they can be perceived as a door to more intense forms of contact.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A hug is a form of fuel but one I can do without.

        2. Jenna says:

          U do not know that hg hates hugs? He despises them. He loathes them. It disgusts him. Also cuddling makes him ‘gag’ as he stated in an article. But i would still want to hug him! Lol.

      4. narc affair says:

        Just some replies to comments. I wish wordpress would change format so we can reply under each comment we choose.

        Jenna…i also miss clarece, indy, love, snow white. Im not sure why they all stopped posting at the same time. I wish them well. They were here before i came across the blog and i enjoyed their perspectives. Maybe its a brief break. I tend to attach too and its been a downfall in many ways. It seems silly seeing we dont know these people except thru online but its still very valid feeling those connections and missing them so dont feel bad.

        RE: hugs… i know there are some people that loathe being touched and its not always just narcissists it can be anyone for a multitude of reasons. Ive taught my son whose on the autism spectrum and who is very affectionate to respect peoples need for space. Just because he wants to hug his sister doesnt mean he should if shes telling him not to or any other person. He still struggles with this with his sister in particular. Some people just dont enjoy being too touchy feely. Im the same as my son i love to hug and be affectionate but my hubby in the first few yrs expressed that it was smothering and excessive. Its hard not to take it as a criticism but i respect peoples need for space and realise not everyones the same in this regard.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Clarece remains around NA and continues to read the blog. Indy you saw recently back on the blog. Snow White appeared again recently.

      5. narc affair says:

        HG and Jenna…some great discussion and very helpful on both sides.
        Hg …i agree totally your post about emotional thinking getting in the way of seeing reality and realising youre being taken advantage of. There are some narcissists that are totally black in that they have no form of love or loyalty at all towards their partner but so many narcissists lay in that gray area where they do have some good qualities and its very hard if youve shared a lot with that person to just cut them off completely. If theyre toxic and causing harm then its not an option and no contact fully is required. Ive learned from here there are some instances where people were able to detach but still have the narcissist in their lives or at least thats how it looks. Windstorms story comes to mind. I think it really depends on the dynamics tho. Almost always were told no contact but i do wonder if there are some instances where we can keep the narcissist in our lives if we choose but detach and move on. Idk im still learning as i go.

        Jenna…when id read you only text once a month i was envious in the way you must be detached but also happy for your emotional freedom. You seem a lot different now than you did a few months back when you were having panic attacks bc you suspected he had a new primary source and didnt contact you when he normally did. Anyways you seem so much more free now. Im going by your msgs here of course. That must feel liberating knowing his hold on you is less and less as time goes by.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You have no need to keep the narcissist in your life. You are not in a position to make such a decision using logic for maybe 6-12 months post escape/disengagement because your emotional thinking will be conning you into thinking this is feasible. If you still consider it after this time period, then you are doing so using logic and therefore there is not an emotional thinking reason for doing so, but a logical one. Usually by that stage you see no reason to keep them and thus that is the shift embodied from emotional to logical thinking.

          1. Diva says:

            Hey Narc Affair…….”but so many narcissists lay in that gray area where they do have some good qualities”……..thinking about my last narc and the one before that…..and the one before that……I am struggling here to remember more than one good quality……..granted it is a good one……but it is still only one…..and nothing that I could not get elsewhere…….just saying!!!!……….When I think of the narcissists I have known……the words “good qualities,” do not spring to my mind that’s for sure. Are these qualities real qualities, or part of the facade?????…..Diva

      6. Erin says:

        Hey Jenna, I’m still relatively new and I don’t always have time to read all the comments 😉
        It is interesting to me if HG doesn’t enjoy cuddles: I find that to often be the case with people who have trust issues or think themselves unlovable as cuddles imply a certain level of vulnerability.
        Personally I don’t enjoy “cuddles” unless from my fiancé, and only when I am in a VERY relaxed and good mood.
        I do however dispense hugs with no problem…There is the cultural aspect as I am part Italian living in Italy and hugging is part of saying hello with friends, so there is not such an emotional attachment as with cuddles.
        As Narcs naturally are not trusting people, it makes sense for them to dislike cuddles…maybe the victim narc might like them as fuel, though, but the victim narcs are particular, really. My mother is a victim narcissist, and she does NOT like cuddles, never gave them and would refuse them if attempted when we were children.
        I would not be surprised if it were the same for HG

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I detest them.

          1. Kimi says:


            It’s the intimacy you truly detest, isn’t it?

          2. HG Tudor says:


        2. Jenna says:

          Hi erin,

          I did not realize u were relatively new here because ur letter to ur narc was so well written and u have ‘seized the power’, as hg states we must do.

          So firstly, though a little late, i’d like to welcome u. 💐💐💐
          I find ur comments v thoughtful.

          U stated u live in italy. I like reading comments here by pple frm around the world. It demonstrates how v universal narcissism is.

          I’m sorry to hear that u have a narc parent, as it is difficult to grow up w one.

          Erin, hg absolutely hates hugs!

          Oddly enough, my ex, a mid-range narc, used to cuddle and hug me for hours, without sex. He is v affectionate.

          Hg, on the other hand would maybe run? Or push the ipps away? Or turn his back? I can think of many mean scenarios!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            HG doesn’t run away.

          2. Jenna says:

            This is true. I should have realized that! U would never run. Shove the ipps while pouting? Ok ok jk! I know u wouldn’t pout either!

      7. narc affair says:

        Jenna…when id read you only text once a month i was envious in the way you must be detached but also happy for your emotional freedom. You seem a lot different now than you did a few months back when you were having panic attacks bc you suspected he had a new primary source and didnt contact you when he normally did. Anyways you seem so much more free now. Im going by your msgs here of course. That must feel liberating knowing his hold on you is less and less as time goes by.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi narcaffair,

          U r correct. His hold on me is definitely less as time goes by. I used to feel sad if he doesn’t text me after the regular two wks. Then it became 3 wks. Now, it’s become a month. I was expecting the frequency naturally to reduce since we don’t meet. U can say i am weaning myself off him.

          But it is not just time that has allowed this to happen. It is hg, hg’s information, being here w you lovely pple, and alot of work btwn ex narc and i on what course suits us best. I also try not to be too emotionally invested, which is only possible with infrequent contact.

          I am curious and u need not answer if u don’t wish to. Do u still meet ur narc? R u intimate w him? How often do u interact? Because it seems to be working for u, so i am trying to learn what others do to make it work.

          Ty narcaffair.

      8. Erin says:

        Hey Jenna,
        thank you for the welcome and the kind comments. 🙂
        I find your comments insightful, and your relationship with your narc very interesting. I guess we all decide what we are comfortable with, and how much fuel, if any, we are willing to provide.
        My theory for HG’s reaction to cuddles would include the following:
        1.(during golden period) tolerate it for the sake of seduction and then use it as a tool to wound during devaluation by denying the cuddles or breaking the moment by saying something hurtful;
        2. immediately turn the attempt for cuddles into foreplay and sex, where true intimacy can be avoided.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi erin,

          You’re welcome.
          And thank u.

          I esp like the 2nd part of ur theory. Our self-proclaimed ‘olympian’ btwn the sheets would probably do just that!

      9. narc affair says:

        Hi HG…ty for your reply. I just read it now. Thats a good point about the 6 to 12 month mark being more in a logic way of thinking vs the initial emotional thinking. I think for me itd take longer and thats where full no contact is so important.

        Hi jenna…i tried weaning off but it never works bc a) im afraid he will notice the changes and rev up the mind games and b) i start to get down and out without him. I think its great its worked for you! Keep going and dont look back 👍
        The narc and i are intimate but nowhere how we were in the early years. I suspect hes involved with someone else as more of a primary role without living with them.
        We see each other daily and are in contact morning afternoon and night so yes im in deep. We meet in person once a day.
        Getting back to weaning off if i knew i could do this without him caring id do it to prove to myself its possible.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes it may well longer for some people NA.

  10. Becky says:

    There are many that would be repelled by what’s beneath, but really it’s all still just the human condition. It’s just a subset of people that act in certain ways to keep them feeling good. In contrast…. for an empath, it’s helping others to make themselves feel good, so that’s what they do. Who are we to judge any of these? Because society deems one behavior acceptable and another not? Everyone has their own skeletons. Is feeling pain necessarily always bad? Should we judge people for their intentions? You judge because you prioritize others above yourself and expect the same in someone else. Someone who prioritizes themself over others might disagree. I think it’s the mismatch in expectations that really gets people’s blood boiling.

    I’m sometimes very empathetic, sometimes sort of flat-emotioned. I thank the latest narcissist for showing me I can still feel! The lows were lower but the highs were higher. And to not feel guilty about being angry for the first time maybe…ever. Yes, I’m glad to be back to a flatter section of the rollercoaster of my life.

    But really, all that being said…beneath the surface is still a human being. Flawed and perfectly imperfect. The brain may work a little differently than what most are used to, but it’s still a person, still experiencing life.

  11. analise13 says:

    I was more repelled by the facade then what lay beneath.
    The truth is below the surface, that is never repulsive.

    1. Noname says:

      You are a saint soul then, analise.
      You should be repelled. Otherwise you won’t survive.

      1. analise13 says:

        Thank you Noname.
        Yes. Survival and sanity should always be the goal.

  12. Erin says:

    These are the truths for the narcissist, not for the empath, so one ought to remember that.
    It is interesting how different empaths see this personal truth in a plethora of ways: some might think “you should help yourself, you CAN heal”; others might rage at the dishonesty of the façade; another group could feel pity for the insecurity and fear of rejection perceived in the creation of a false self, and finally some might have, as a first reaction, the thought that they would have not been repelled, had they known, because they would have tried to make it work anyway…Unless it was a violent lesser, of course…
    I’m sure there are others but these come to mind first.

  13. Diva says:

    You could take the word “NOT” out of this sentence and it would still ring just as true…..depending on whether you desire positive or negative fuel……Diva

  14. blackunicorn123 says:

    Totally agree.
    By creating an overwhelming attachment, it delays, or stops, our natural instinct to recoil. It tempers our good judgement. We *should* fully recognise the full horror of what is in front of us, and act accordingly, but we don’t, we have been dis-abled.

    1. Nina says:

      That’s the purpose of love bombing, it keeps you from connecting with your logical mind and more focused on the overwhelming feelings of being “loved”.

    2. BlackUnicorn.


      Thanks for stating it so eloquently


  15. narc affair says:

    But maybe just maybe if you explored who you really are and strive to improve it youd be accepted and valued as you are no facade necessary and youd start to like who you are.

  16. thepianist20 says:

    What exactly does it mean, HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      We create the illusion because there is the fear that what would otherwise be there would not attract you or anybody else.

      1. thepianist20 says:

        I see,

        Thank you for your response, HG,,

  17. Deneene says:

    This is the one time I think your wrong about us. We are very much repelled by what lies beneath. You have no idea the horror we experience when we finally scratch beneath the surface.
    But we are believers in redemption. We would like nothing better then to save you from yourself.

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