Lies
You breathe. I lie. Both come to us naturally. To you, an empathic and caring person who is imbued with the traits of decency, honesty and integrity the act of lying is anathema to you. Even the use of a little white lie as it spills from your lips has you feeling uneasy. You conduct yourself in a way that involves avoiding lying and you would rather stay silent than let an untruth escape your mouth. Not only will you not lie,you detest being lied to. The lie shatters trust. Trust is a fundamental ingredient,in your world, to any relationship, whether it is between spouses, colleagues, parent and child or service provider. Without trust nothing would be achieved and the world would be a darker place. Breaching that trust is a terrible act and where your trust has been broken by the issuing of a lie then you react with horror, anger, upset and dismay. I can think of no better device for drawing an emotional reaction from your kind than the issuing of a lie. Those three letters create a small word but one which has all manner of repercussions. From the lies that accompany infidelity which strikes at the core of the relationship, to the lies told by those in power to remain a demagogue and achieve political expediency, the effect of not telling the truth is substantial and enormous. Lying results in damage. Lie to your friends and you lose their respect, lie in a court and you commit perjury, lie about your circumstances and you commit fraud,lie to your children and you begin to warp their world, lie to your other half and you destroy a part of them. A small word which packs a thermonuclear punch. So easy to say, so simple to use and the effects can be devastating. No wonder my kind and me relish its use. Economical and effective, no other tool comes close to the power of telling lies and this is why we use them repeatedly,often and extensively.
The advantage of their use is by telling you a Long Involved Explanation we lead you up the garden path and around the houses causing you to become confused and bewildered. The advantage to us is that the terrible truth of what we do becomes Lost In Explaining what we have done by use of our convoluted and twisted diatribes. We tell untruths from the moment that we seduce you as we detail to you our Lovely Ideas Embellished with falsehood about how we will achieve a promotion in under six months, climb Mount Everest and interior design our new impressive home. The fact is that we are fantasists who exaggerate our achievements and our plans so that the Lucid Ideas Expand beyond reality. The use of lies assists us in evading the finger of blame. You will try and catch us our but there is never a Lapse In Exposition as we weave an ever more complex web in which we wish to ensnare you, leaving us untarnished. You look on in astonishment as Laughing I’m Escaping accountability yet again. No matter what I have done, no matter how heinous the activity I will allow untruths to spill from my lips with consummate ease so that I remain in control, superior and blame-free. Often it will be a short and bare-faced lie, designed to have you speechless with incredulity as I walk away Laughing Inside Energetically at your shocked face. On other occasions, I will engage in the shaggy dog story, going round and round, adding more and more to the tale so that I Lovingly Insinuate Eventually that you are the one to blame and this makes you react all the more. How can we have the audacity to say such things and turn the blame onto you? Look It’s Easy, we have no sense of remorse or guilt for the things that we say. You are burdened with a conscience and a moral compass that causes you to steer a path so you always stick to the road of truth. We have no such compass. We do not have a conscience and this allows us to weave and twist, taking our explanations into the realms of the fantastic. Whether we are boasting and bragging about what we are or seeking to escape culpability we will lie incessantly. You will plead with me to tell the truth. You will promise that there will be no upshot, no comeback and no consequence you just, for once want to hear us speak the truth. You know the truth but you want me to tell you, so you can hear it for once. Like I’m Ever going to do that. Why should I give you something that you want? Why should I cede control to you ? Most of all, why should I give up the opportunity of gathering fuel from you? This is why we lie extensively, even when the truth might actually serve us better (better when judged from your viewpoint of course – not ours) we will gain fuel. Our twisted lies always cause you to react and provide us with fuel. If a situation is Lacking In Emotion we know that all it takes is for us to tell you a lie, the bolder the better, the more brazen and ridiculous it is the greater your reaction will be because you hate lies and you hate being lied to. As you stand before me frustrated and upset, I am Laughing I’m Escaping yet again any responsibility for my actions. I will smother you in untruths, layer lie upon lie, Literally It’s Engulfing you in falsehood so that you no longer even recognise the truth, such is the level of distortion. We lie to everyone. The man in the corner shop about how many goals we scored at football, lies at work to cover our backs and to plunge knives into the backs of others. Lies to a friend about how much we like him just to keep the Little Idiot Entertained. Repeatedly we will lie to you to ensure you remain Locked In Entanglement with us and cannot escape. We use lies to express our false sorrow, our faux remorse and our promises to change just so you will not Leave In Earnest. We show-off with lies in a crowd to bring the spotlight back on to us as we talk over other people because we Like Interrupting Everyone. The lie is a Limitless Invigorating Example of what we really are. A fraudster, a charlatan, a con-man and a pathological liar. We know no other way and we have no desire to embrace any other way. I will always lie, I am Loving It Everyday because it furthers my schemes, underpins my ambitions, avoids accountability and brings me fuel again and again.
I am always telling lies.
And that’s the only truth.
89 thoughts on “Lies”
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I have noticed in the Ns I have known, intimately and distantly, that their frequency of lying seems to accelerate under certain conditions. I wondered if HG or anyone else had any insight as to what those conditions might be. Is it pressure? Feeling of losing control? Severe wounding? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
HG, could you please comment on what Jenna wrote here. “What i failed to realize is that once one has been intimate w a narc, he can never see her as ‘white’ forever. Hg did inform me that mmrn regards me as ipss rather than niss. Still, as ipss who does not engage in intimacy with him any longer, i thought being a friend wud grant me an everlasting golden period. It does not since him regarding me as ipss means just that – IPSS, and eventual discard (unless u r a v compliant dls is the only exception i believe). “? Is this accurate?
The issue of being viewed as black or white by us is nothing to do with intimacy. As I have explained previously, if you are a NISS to a narcissist and that is all you will ever be you may experience an elongated golden period with no real problems (owing to intermittent interaction, loyal behaviour and façade management). If you have been intimate with a narcissist, even though we may treat you as a NISS thereafter, you are still regarded as an intimate source and therefore this means you can never be ‘just friends’ and experience an outcome as that received by a true NISS. Thus, Jenna thought that becoming a NISS would lead to this elongated golden period, but it is far riskier because of the intimate status which once allocated, never leaves, even though the current behaviour is non-intimate.
Thank you very much, HG! This is very helpful. I am a bit confused about the following point: “f you have been intimate with a narcissist, even though we may treat you as a NISS thereafter, you are still regarded as an intimate source and therefore this means you can never be ‘just friends’ and experience an outcome as that received by a true NISS.” You wrote elsewhere, NISS remains in a golden period if NISS provides fuel, does not challenge extensively, is loyal, and complies. If I recall correctly, the same is true for a secondary intimate source. So when you say that it is far riskier for the one with an intimate status and that the one with an intimate status does not receive an outcome received by a true NISS, what do you mean by that? Do you, perhaps, mean that it is more likely for an intimate status appliance to wound the narc, to challenge the narc, to fail to comply?
Thanks so much for sharing, Jenna! I am so glad you made it to the other side and are free! Your narrative is very empowering and inspiring! I will read it over and over in the time of struggle. Peace and happiness to you!
Dear Mr Tudor,
Lying is the hardest for me to digest and it’s been the hardest to reply to.
I think because I was treated so bad, right from childhood. I had to be good, to be good, you have to be honest, to be honest, you don’t lie!
Yet everyone still lied to me, so it meant I was bad and not good enough. I have never seen myself as good enough and so I tried harder. The harder I tried, the more I was lied to …
When I confronted my friend about the truth, he looked me straight in the eye and lied to me. His eyes were still, soulless and a glaze formed over them. I sure he was getting his “rocks off” by lying. My mum does the same, she looks me in the eye and says “I don’t lie”! Yet her actions have proven otherwise and she cannot explain them … nothing was her fault, blamed others and couldn’t remember.
The last words to my narc friend was …”one lie discovered, all your truths are questionable” …. no response from him.
I know now, they don’t care, they hear you, but they don’t listen, it means nothing …. you may as well be talking to a brick wall and not waste your breath.
I am good enough and I will always carry of the “flag of truth” … I’m an empath and proud of it!
Mr Tudor, I very much appreciate your honesty about lying.
You are welcome.
Bubbles,
HG is not honest about this you know, he lied about this post. 😉
Dear sarabella,
If you hadn’t blinked, I would’ve believed you. 😱😂
HG, I appreciate this blog, but isn’t it all just a lie, based on this post? Assuming it’s not all lies, here’s my actual question: I have watched my narc father beat up my older sister emotionally my whole life but he has stopped trying it on me. I think it’s because I just make fun of him and make a joke when he tries it, is that right?
You are evidently not providing him with what he requires and dependent on the manner by which you are responding, you are either wounding him or providing Challenge Fuel. This means he instinctively recognises that you are a more difficult appliance to handle, so he focusses on an easier target.
“You breathe. I lie. They both come to us naturally.” After everything I have read about narcissism, this quote sticks with me.
It’s a process though. It takes time. You have to first ascertain that the shore is where you really want to be. Then, keep swimming determinedly across the stormy sea with that piece of land in your site. I love HG’s metaphor of the sea and land because actual swimming was my salvation. I’d hear all of these obsessive thoughts in my head as I swam lap after lap, but at the same time I would push myself harder and harder in the pool as if I could somehow purge the poison by doing so. Even once you eventually get to land, you have to build your fortress. Reading here reminds me the enemy is mighty. Narcs as HG tells us – known and unknown ones – may send spying drones or launch air attacks or have carriers firing from the sea.
Sarabella, I’m just trying to say I understand everything you express in your writings. Been there, bought all the tshirts, burned them to remove ever presence, over time felt safe and furloughed my guards, but that’s for another post. I just ask that you keep this site your safe place, for you just for you. Don’t bring him here. You need a place that is just for you.
Good post.
DUTG,
Don’t worry, I wouldn’t do that…. I don’t care on that level anymore that he grasps what he is. Which would be the only motivation for that. It just was something funny in HG’s book of revenge about signing a narc up for all sorts of shady stuff. I am not in the revenge stage at all anymore.
He did me a favor when he said there was nothing ever between us. It helped me to sever the story and since we are no longer in that “dance” where what he does with his life did matter to me as he played his “us and future faking” games with me, I have no need to care whats going on with him anymore. He wants to keep being the town whore? He can knock himself out. Someone who has been doing this to women his whole life is never, ever at 55 going to be relationship material. Its just not going to happen. I was honest enough about that to stop dreaming he might change or have ever been different with me. So, I just don’t care what happens to him. Give him enough time with anyone, she will be gone again.
Sarabella, like you I was taken in by someone I knew from my past, someone I knew pre-narc ex husband, before I even knew that narc abuse was a term. He was only just a flirty acquaintance the first time I knew him. I think because this someone belonged to a time that was prior to ex narc husband and all that poison, the rekindling (years after my divorce) reminded me of the person I once was before I was ‘educated’ by ex narc husband. And out the window went all the lessons I learned because of ex narc husband. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that you and I had that in common.
DUTG,
I hope there is a special place reserved in hell for Narcs who come back after years (decades in my case) and hurt the same people again.
It’s all perspective, so this is just my personal perspective. Every time I realize I’m not interested in winning or even playing, that I enjoy my chaos free life, I feel like I’m winning. Be it any narc I encounter (workplace, family member, romance). I continue to study to remain vigilant and aware. You know how you may attend self defense courses to remain vigilant against rapists and robbers? I consider HG to be teaching against soul rapists and robbers. I think this course should be taught in school. I think there should be more public service announcements. Soul safety training.
Strangely, one of the hardest things to get used to, for me, was the chaos free life.
That was normal for so long. I do, of course, appreciate the “new normal”.
According to HG, it’s all perspective. ‘Winning’ is about perspective. I ‘lost’ him, he had impregnated next wife before the divorce and was ‘winning’ baby and wedding showers, he was ‘winning’ because he was investing with my money a nice undervalued home in a trendy area with lots of growth potential. She was ‘winning’ too. Every time he wouldn’t settle without more money I agreed to his demands, so they were ‘winning’. But in my perspective, I was ‘winning’. Best money ever ‘lost’. I got my life back. He still cannot hold down jobs, they both look old and unwell. Meanwhile from DUTG perspective, “Charlie Sheen Winning!”
The ‘truth’ is always changing. There is no ‘logic’. What was so one day is the complete opposite the next day. There is never any sense of order. That is why the spinning is constant. It’s a horrible assault on any victim engaged with them. Even when you’re past the point of caring while still engaged with them, even after your emotions are numb, the constant rule changing produces the ultimate mind f*ck so that in trying to decode, to apply logic to the nonsense, etc. means damn it I’m still focused on his words, his thought processes, trying to produce empirical evidence. The focus is still on him vs. on us living a fruitful life with some advancement. Must get off the Merry-go-round.
I witnessed the struggles of coworkers trying to get ex narc pin downed on verbal commitments made in meetings. They’d take notes, produce a written recap of who committed to do what by when, ask for verbal replies of agreement. He’d never respond. That was beneath him he’d tell me. Then they’d try videotaping or recording the meetings. Again, denials he’d agreed to that. And these coworkers were not emotionally involved with him either. They were exasperated, and so much time would be spent on him vs. working towards progressing the particular organizational goal. So no wonder it’s even more profound when dating them, living with them, coparenting, being a child of them, etc.
All good examples of the application of the Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence.
It both disgusts me and also amazes me that these con-artists can succeed for years with their lies.
Famous film producers, doctors to elite athletes, superhuman sportspeople, and presidents were and are able to con so many for so long. Their facades eventually crack, but not before a lot of damage is done over many years to many people. These are the ones we have all heard about. Imagine how many garden-variety narcs are out there lying every day.
The truth often seems painstakingly hard to prove, yet narcs seem to get away with their outlandish lies with ease. It’s mind-boggling.
Not taking the lies personal did help me alot ! . Looking back at the web I got in from first relationship until my previous last relationship narcissists only . Maybe because MatriNarc . “Caught Up In A Web Of Deception” i’m learning now this blog helps me so much “The Shadow Energy “ (Kind) is teaching The Light Energy (Kind) lol we really both seem to need each other somehow .
~We show-off with lies in a crowd to bring the spotlight back on to us as we talk over other people because we Like Interrupting Everyone.~
This had me laughing so hard ! I KNOW !!
To Really Understand The Hate I feel for my narcissist, I must accept this fact: it was all a lie. I hate lies. #truth
Hi jasmine,
Since i found u here i wud like to reply to u frm the other article. Ty for saying i am observant. U said u fall into category 2 of obtaining knowledge. Knowledge is power and i am glad category 2 is sufficient for u to proceed towards healing. I need more answers being in category 3, and will be consulting hg again soon. Peace and continued healing for u.
Hi Jenna!
*hugs. I don’t remember the question. My memory is horrid today! I keep trying to read and read and my mind wanders off.. I need another consult soon too!. You are so sweet. I hope you are doing ok?? 💞
Jenna,
Oh, I just saw 😢 I’m so so sorry honey. Wish I could hug you. Xxxoooo
Ty jasmine. I am better now. Hg saved me. Hugs and continued healing to u too🌺
Everyone,
Pls consult hg! If u are limited financially, cut back on other areas such as travel, cable tv, shopping, lower ur heating a little n use candles, do WHATEVER it takes! It is a reasonable price! Plus u will feel like u can counter the narc with a Greater on ur side! I am realizing that lessers and midrangers are gross.
Thank you !! Informative AND brilliant! Creative use of L.I.E. I will remember this in my ongoing pursuit of a sound mind post escape. Thank you !!!
Is the real man somewhere inside or is he gone? Are you ever interested in discovering the truth about you? Are you in peace with yourself?
Depends who you ask.
Yes, that is what I am doing.
No.
Yes, you are right, that three letter word is one of the core building blocks of the psychological abuse. Rapped up in word salad and circular conversations it is also the three letter word that in the end knees the narcissist. The empath will eventually shut down, withdraw, or wound back (depending on the school), and will understand the difference between telling a lie and believing in a lie.
For me, the everyday lying was not the worst kind of lies, to me that was just pathetic.
No, the worst lie, and the one that will always scare me, is the ability of projection in the seduction:
«He smiled understandingly, much more than understandingly. It was one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it, that you may come across four or five times in life. It faced – or seemed to face – the whole eternal world for an instant, and then concentrated on you with an irresistible prejudice in your favour». (TGG)
HG. I’m still intrigued by your radio interview, in which you talked about facing your past. In fact you state you don’t really want too. I assume this is because you will have to relive and experience difficult and painfull emotions. My question is this. Do you believe through therapy, it is possible to heal the inner child?
I do not want to as that is the past and has been dealt with.
I do not regard it as possible to heal the inner child.
Healing by only understanding. That is all one can so. My dad was a Lesser Narcissist Sociopath who punched holes in walls. I learned to hold in my opinions because I feared his rage and I grew to feel embarrassed when I began to grow boobs because he was a misogynist. Try having that for a parent.
I envy those women who had dads who believed in them. He had an uncanny technical ability–you could give him any mechanical object and he could fix it, arrange it, assemble it. But he could barely spell and had a 3rd grade writing ability.
It must have been very hard for him to ask me, as a 13 yr old, to help him write a business letter. The ego he had to swallow.
So much pain he caused. He had so many gifts—mechanical, technical—he would have been a great success as his own businessman—air conditioning repair, car repair, etc.
But he went the wrong way. And a hole in the wall is a hole in the wall. When you watch him punch it, that’s not perspective. It’s fucking there.
What is your reasoning on not being able to heal the inner child?
Did not your Mother inflict pain on you as a child and thus you sealed off that pain by creating a facade to deflect from more damage being done? Wasn’t that an attempt to heal yourself from her crushing blows?
It is too late and unnecessary, assuming someone would know how to even try.
Correct.
Defend rather than heal.
Hello HG and thank you for your answer.
Did re-examining your abuse with the doctors cause you to re-live the trauma? Is that why the conclusion to not examine your past is drawn?
In essence albeit the Grand Design nullifies further examination.
So, maybe I need a consult, but after reading this blog from top to bottom, (I may have a couple left to read,) I’m at the point where I’m trying to figure out how to beat him at his own game. Logically. Without emotion. Because I’m 100x more logical than he will ever be and only care enough to do this for my pleasure/enjoyment. Otherwise, I’ll go NC in a second and not even blink an eye.
Thanks to this gorgeously well written and amazingly insightful blog, I know more about what he is, and see through everything he’s done, and said (and saying!) – but I understand it. Does that make sense? I truly and only want to do this for my amusement/enjoyment. Please tell me I can win. 😇
You can win, however timing is important – are you still ensnared or recently escaped/disengaged?
And yet no one has won with you. Or so you claim. How is it you understand the winning part? Just by knowing what you fear most someone could or might one day do to you? Or, is it the things your mother did to you which destroyed your humanity which won her total power over you as a child, leading you to rebel in a way that is not unlike the exact manner in how she damaged you?
I was laying here thinking how I could subscribe his email to this post and write something. Heck, subscribe him to all your posts and writings, over and over. A little revenge. Too bad email subscriptions use two way authentication these days. Know a way around that? LOL
My 12 page stream of conscious writing was about just this. His lies and how they all worked.
Nobody has won with me.
Why? They do not know what I am, do not understand why I operate as I do, they do not know the appropriate ways to respond and therefore make all of the usual mistakes. Then add to that an opponent such as I and therefore they do not win. However, you can win by understanding my work and learning to ensure you apply it and use it – this will achieve the win for you.
I understand the winning part because for you this means achieving your freedom in the sense of removing yourself from the relationship and remaining away from it. You may go further than this and achieve revenge, but it is not for everyone and has to be done at the correct time.
When is the correct time? Asking for a friend.. 😁
When you have purged the emotional infection to a minimum and have your emotional thinking under control. This does not happen overnight and requires a number of months.
Damn. I’m infected and contagious. Thanks Doc
But some of the women you’ve been involved with HG must know something about what was going on by now? Googling, searching, getting a therapist must be the natural thing to do when you don’t get any closure and you’re obsessed with what happened in your relationship. I googled silent treatments, found narcissists and found you. I’m not implying they know who you are; but rather what you are.
Indeed, that stands to reason and certain words and terms have been bandied around – usually afterwards rather than during. Their problems were that they either received wrong information, incomplete information, could not process it, could not tackle their emotional thinking etc.
You have shared that a part college girlfriend first shared that she thought you had NPD. That is what led you to research and if I remember correctly connect the dots that is what your mother is.
What about other past girlfriends (relationships) you have written about here – Karen, Sophie, Caroline, Alex, Olivia, Fiona – did any of them come to you during the devalue phase and figure out you have NPD? If so, which ones?
So, HG, do you consider everyone who engages w you to be a loser? 😉
No.
Recently escaped/disengaged…. he’s out of state (almost 7 hours away).
So, is it a case that you were completely no contact for seven months and then you engaged again with the narcissist for five months but did so feeling that emotionally the door has been closed and then you escaped, this escape being recent? I am seeking to get a handle on the timeline of your interaction/non-interaction.
I should note, that although this is a “recent” escape, emotionally the door has been closed for over a year. Previously to this escape, there was a seven month break in which I healed and educated myself (by using this blog among a multitude of other resources) and feel completely solid. I do not believe in revenge and am in no way looking for that.
Unfortunately, there were still a few lessons I needed to learn despite my seven month “rest.” I relented and have him another chance. There won’t be that chance ever given again. I may be forgiving, but when my mind is made up there’s no going back. It wasn’t made up back then.
Absolutely, and no need to clarify – thank you for even taking the time to ask/find out more!
I had about 5 months total of full NC during that 7 month break. I allowed 2 months of contact befor he moved back to the state and in with me.
He was here for 6 months total, it exploded mid December. I was emotionally checked out/dead inside within the first 2 months of him here.
Yes, HG, that’s interesting when you mention that certain words and terms have been bandied around afterwards and not during. That’s been the case with me too of course. I knew he was not treating me well during the relationship, I did know back then that it somehow amounted to abuse and that there was something seriously wrong with him; but my logical thinking was not strong at all then and I managed to make up thousands of excuses for his very strange behaviour, most of them having to do with it being my fault in the end. But still, I knew. And I was so scared to speak up; not because of his aggressiveness, but because I was so scared of losing him. That’s twisted. Somehow he managed to make me think that his abuse of me wasn’t the real problem, instead my dramatic reaction to the abuse was the problem – if there was any drama from my side, which there was sometimes. Most of the times I didn’t dare to speak up though and the loss of my voice is one of my most true regrets from the whole experience. How someone could walk into my life, seize complete control over it and mistreat me to the absurd point of me being afraid of losing this person who stole my voice from me. That’s been the most difficult part for me, the matter of awareness aside, that I want to use this voice now and scream bloody murder from the top of my lungs.
Catherine, I couldn’t find the reply button under your comment. Thanks for writing this beautifully, it captures my thoughts perfectly:
‘ How someone could walk into my life, seize complete control over it and mistreat me to the absurd point of me being afraid of losing this person who stole my voice from me. That’s been the most difficult part for me, the matter of awareness aside, that I want to use this voice now and scream bloody murder from the top of my lungs.’
Guinevere, PLEASE have a consult with HG first—- and please maybe-
just maybe wait a week or a month – or two to start planning your revenge! I am at where you are- and have setup my SuperNova, and landmines– however- I had to see him to gain access to one of his homes, play sweet as pie– it was tough. IF you can start your revenge without having to see him -like I did- it may be easier for you. However, like HG says it should be 6 months down the road not weeks later. I ‘think’ I am better- better is only relative–I ‘feel’ focused, I do want revenge, I do want to impact his life. More importantly I simply now want to move on and keep getting happier and happier- feeling joy and peace.
I will have another consult with HG in a few weeks or a month once things have settled within myself a bit more– my ‘closure’ with Narcs.
Guinevere,
If you are not burning with rage and a need for justice, and especially if he feels the game is still in his control, then walking and disappearing without ever blinking if you can pull that off is how you win.
If the injustice of what he did is burning you up, read HG’s book on revenge. I found I had to know when I went down that route, that all games of hope for anything ever being different would be erased forever, and I had to erase it and accept that or it would never work. I had to stay engaged a bit more, acted on my undying lovr, gushed emotion, and when I had the right moment as it felt for me as he thought I was giving him negative and positive indicators, I pounced when the time was right when he predictably reacted as HG says they behave, and then I walked away and that was our last communication. I figured if we are that predictable, then so are they and when I was certain he was reacting predictably (and thinking he was the one in control) to things I set up, I made my move that worked for ME to feel I won. There is no final judge in this so what I did made me feel satisfied that I had made my mark and points. And honestly, I was also just so freaking tired of him and the dream of a long lost love come back to find me had soured beyond beauty. He was just an awful creep in the end. And I also found out from a good friend that he really has no one, despite everything he did and pretended. So I knew, he was nothing but a desperate, washed up somatic narc with erectile dysfunction and that I didn’t even want him anymore. It had just become an emotional habit even to some degree, and the circumstances of his life, of his own making, were taking care of him in the end and he is going to die a desperate alone life and all his lies never built a thing in his life that really matters beyond how many women he can con into sleeping with him. He is 55, unhealthy and won’t be long for this world.
Revenge is an amazing book!! I myself have used it, not to play games or “ win” with him , but more so to protect myself and my family from a situation. It did work, and he backed away. Still get the occasional benign Hoover , but nothing that’s too serious or traumatic. The biggest thing I have leaned from HG is to get a grip on that “ emotional thinking”. That has been the biggest weapon of all.
Hi Star! Thank you for your advice, I’m almost finished with “Fuel” on my Kindle, am going to start “Revenge” next now!
I’ve only kept contact because he’s provided financial assistance twice and I have zero shame in saying that I’m going to take anything and everything he wants to give! It’s frightening how text book Narc he is, I mean word for word and event for event, what HG has written, this guy has done or said it. It’s like I’m reading a play boo and am able to predict EXACTLY what he’s going to say or do next. Scary but also incredibly hilarious – mainly because he has no idea that I know. I mean I KNOW. Hahaha.
Sorry for the ramble, I could spend hours replying to everyone who’s left a comment because I’ve been through most, if not everything all of you have gone through. I’m sending ♥️ and strength through here…
Xoxo,
Gen
When does the empath actually win?
It is not when the empath manage to wound the narcissist to withdraw (for the time being).
It is not when the empath gain information about NPD, and uses that information to be manipulative and try to beat the narcissist at his/her own game.
It is not when the empath uses the gained information to out the narcissist in a clever manner.
The empath wins when he/she is able to interact with the narcissist with indifference.
For me, to reach that level of emotional indifference, is almost impossible.
My only way to «win» to live my life in peace and to be happy, is to block and maintain NC.
And to use the knowledge gained from HG to never let a narcissist close ever again😊
Sunniva,
I totally agree with you!
Revenge means we still fell something and that is fuel for them (“she really hates me, I still “consume” her mind).
The best way for one to impact a narc’s life is indifference and acting like he was never there in the first place. Narc (ex) was still wounded years after his divorce (because, as I later on found out: ex wife managed to go NC at a moment’s notice, after many years with him; his Grand Hoover faced a stone wall, she divorced him -she went to the financial settlement accompanied by a male friend, so he couldn’t hoover her there, then he didn’t see her again; she was “instructed” by a psychologist, friend of her, who got to know him better and saw through his facade, of course because “she was jealous of their wonderful marriage”). Looking at him when he told me that and when he also told me he only hates the women that completely ignored him I realized that it is the only effective “revenge” that does no harm to an empath, only good.
You have to ignore them and live a happy life. Narc’s ex wife is happily married and yes, he was still interested and bitter about her, but POWERLESS.
I’ve absolutely admired her strength!
Revenge kicked in on my way out as i got more control over my emotions. It was small but as Catherine wrote above (which described exactly what happened to me and how I felt -how dare he take my voice like that and make me so afraid to lose him), it was through revenge that I got my voice back. Revenge meant I didn’t care to save anything. Revenge meant I was on my way to indifference . Not that I was at that point. It was a huge step on turning the tables. What happens to us is huge and I think indifference can be gradual so it was how I stepped out on indifference. It was starting to not care about what happened to his life or if I might hurt him because he sure didn’t ever care that he hurt me.
Hello guinevere,
From my own experience, i was not able to win. He hoovered me back as a friend. During the hoover, i researched and discovered he is a narc. I started feeling sorry for him since he suffers frm narcissism. I also wanted to remain connected w him. Frm reading hg’s works, i was able to manage the friendship. I knew what wud wound him, so i avoided that. I knew he needed positive fuel, so i gave him that. He told me something is not right with him and that he has no emotions, so i gave him the answers, thx to hg of course. I told him he is not alone and he suffers frm a personality disorder called npd. I placed a label on it for him. I helped him as much as i cud. At the same time, i was glad he was still in my life.
Fast forward 1.5 yrs, i am discarded. It hurts like hell and i was not expecting this AT ALL. He has been EXTREMELY kind, sweet, accomodating, supportive in the last 1.5 yrs. He wud avoid doing everything that i told him that hurts me. Future faking hurts me – he stopped completely. Blame shifting hurts me – he stopped completely. Blocking hurts me (tho he only did it abt 3x in the past) – he stopped completely. Not replying to my texts within a few hrs hurts me – he wud respond within minutes. He kept it up for 1.5 yrs post hoover, during the friendship. He showed cognitive empathy during this time. I felt moved that someone who has no empathy is going thru the trouble of showing cognitive empathy. He was my best friend. And now, i am blocked, with no explanation. I’ve been crying and shaking for days.
Do not think u can win. Unless hg guides u every step of the way with ur personal situation, u cannot win by engaging. Save urself the heartache.
I have some pending comments to reply to but they are somewhere in my inbox. I have yet to find them as i have not applied filters to this blog. I cannot even do it. I am so distressed, depressed, feel cheated. I gave him my every bit of support and he does this in the end. Why? Why god why? This world is full of cruelty and i wish my parents never brought me in it.
Dear Jenna,
You’re such a good and thoughtful person and he took advantage of that, I’m sorry you are hurt, implying NC is the only way with them (unfortunately, because ignoring someone doesn’t come natural to us, just parting ways on good terms)!
Your post is so…full of emotions that I couldn’t help but write back to you!
Please take care! This time you only need to think of yourself!
Oh Jenna!
I’m so sorry for your emotional pain!
You ask why and I think the only comprehensive answer is that he is a Narcissist and discarding is what they do. I believe you’ve written that he was a Midranger too? If so, wasn’t he simply placating you by responding appropriately to your educating him on NPD and by avoiding behavior that hurts you? I am amazed that a MRN would go to such great lengths and maintain it for a year and a half. Those actions alone show how much he valued you! Keep in mind, that if a MR cannot face his true self then how could he continue to face you as you gently coaxed him into introspection?
You are so right that you cannot win by engaging with a Narc, as they truly are destroyers. Soul destroyers! Wise advice to Guinevere!
I will say that for me, getting over my Narc (the 3rd time) while having an awareness of what he is (a MRN) has made it much easier to deal with. I no longer have the false ideals of love to contend with, just the addiction and ever-presence. It’s been just over a month after discard and he feels like a distant blurry memory.
Be well Jenna and take care of yourself! You are such a sweet gentle soul and we all are blessed to have you touch our lives!
So sorry, Jenna. I can feel how much pain you are in. Do you care to share what happened right before the blocking? If you would rather not talk about it, that’s ok and I understand. Sending my thoughts and prayers your way. Hope you feel better soon.
Aww Jenna. I am so sorry. If it gives you any comfort I think many of us here at some point in time have attempted to apply HGs work in hopes of remaining friends/ and or good terms with the ex narcissists . Myself included. ( hangs head in shame)Even tho I knew better, even tho HG clearly and consistently stated in his writings what the end result would be( and boy, he was right) I ridiculously / momentarily thought that being that I had so much new knowledge , that I could outsmart him, or maybe even reach him(lol)Eventually tho I re read HGs book Exorsism and I had this huge aha moment. In it HG stated( don’t know the exact words off the top of my head) that we keep going back because of our desire to obtain answers. It’s not so much that we want HIM, we just want clues to unlock the mysteries behind their treatment of us. The truth is, we will never truly understand, because we are different breeds of beings. He will never give you the love you hope for Jenna.He will never treat you the way you wish to be treated. Hugs to you and your huge heart girl.
Hi Jenna,
You lost your best friend. You are mourning over someone who is still alive. This is very painful and also mentally and physically exhausting.
His decision has nothing to do with you. It is not your fault. You did the best you could. He cannot appreciate what you gave him because he looks at life and relationships through a different perspective. You may feel that you have lost but this is not about winning or losing. He is only playing different game.
I care and I am glad you are in this world.
Awww Jenna! I’m so sorry! I know you’re absolutely miserable over this. A couple of things came to mind that hopefully as you calm down over the next few days, it will help you separate from taking this so personally (which I totally get and have done myself). Didn’t you say at one point your Narc started seeing someone new? You had been upset in the past about it but since you then decided to remain friends, I couldn’t remember if he is still seeing this new girlfriend or if she bit the dust with him at some point. It could be that he triangulated her with your friendship with him to gain fuel. Maybe she had enough and put thru an ultimatum of me or the friendship with you? And since you said he appears to try to be cognitively empathetic, he may have just blocked you for now to appease her. If that is the case? Whether or not it’s related to another girlfriend, I do believe that him blocking you has something to do with whatever else is happening in his fuel matrix and nothing at all about your actions and whether or not you were supporting him enough or too much as a friend. I just don’t think that is possible with you. You have been trying to be “perfect” towards him in every sense to maintain his presence in your life. Probably to your own detriment.
So you have to separate and realize this is all about him and nothing about you. His loss.
Also, if you tread down this path and eventually make contact with him to continue having some kind of “friendship’ you have to operate that it is a day-to-day plan. Have no expectation that it will continue to last to protect your feelings. Enjoy when you hear from him but you can’t expect to continually hear from him. And that is a huge obstacle to overcome when you feel very bonded to a person.
If I was a betting girl though, I’d say some kind of triangulation is at play for him to just abruptly cut off and go MIA.
Jenna,
I won only in that I was able to finally tell him that this was all his fault and I hope he is proud of what he did. Since he thought he was such a good guy for confession what he did to me 35 years ago, intentionally, me telling him that in the way I did was very wounding to him and was my last big throw up that I refuse to own the horror of what this all became. Its not mine.
But I know that you DON’T win in that you will never be loved, protected and cherished by them.
I feel for you Jenna. That shaking, trembling feeling is like nothing else.
You just said something that just helped me, “He hoovered me back as a friend.” In one of the last rounds he and I had, he tried to tell me that I helped him with his life (he even told me he told someone that – triangulation), that why couldn’t I have just lent all that money as a friend? Why can’t we just accept we slept together and all of what happened and move on? He is there for me to talk, to vent, to share. Given how I contacted him, he wanted to know, did I just want to communicate and talk with him, or fight and go back to “that old chapter’.
I remember thinking, ” Be friends, like he does with his other women? Such that they are ALL still connected socially? And what does friendship even mean after all that happened? What could it mean? Why did he even put all of that in a voice note (which is how he sent it)? If he didn’t really miss me, too?”
I soared on momentary hope (see, he must really care, he still wants to be my friend, after all that happened, after the things I did in the middle of my SuperNova rages) and then I crashed on the knowledge that HG gave me that I would never even win as a Friend. Win in that regard. Win his desire to really take care of our friendship, to NEVER EVER hurt me that way again. And I knew I would always be waiting to be hurt. Always. I would never let myself go with him again like I did in the beginning.
You helped me cause that is what he was doing! Hoovering for a friendship! Anything to resume his connection to me. That was always the missing description on why he did that. NOT because he misses ME. It was a hoover! Wow… It seemed so genuine, too.
I responded “You mean a friend like you couldn’t be to me on my visit?” (I went to see him half way around the world after 35 years and he blew me off.) To that he raged and blocked me. 🙁
And what has happened to you is what I knew I could never, ever go through again. I could never be rejected by him again. It was bad enough to go through it as a lover, as I thought I was, but to go through it as a friend, as someone accepting friendship because he didn’t want to be with me? I was so afraid to find myself where you are. It must be absolutely horrific. 🙁 🙁 I am soooo sorry…
I am glad I came back to this site, as I knew I had been triggered by other things in my life and he was rearing up again. I knew I was on the verge of provoking a fight with him just to get his attention (I have no emotional ability to try to contact him as a posititive friend as he mentioned above, to reach out just to talk, vent, share… ). And now I am at what was underneath it all: that I miss him a whole lot. And there is nothing at all I can ever do about that. Ever. I could never be a friend to him and watch him give praise and attention to so many other people he would never give to me. I guess his other girlfriends he is still friends with online (not all of them) are ok with that, but then again, he gave them his time and publicly praises them or engaged with them. That was never going to be my reality, even as a friend.
That friendship thing is the worst way for a narc to hoover someone they have discarded. It is sooo controlling. They are saying, “Here, I am placing you now on the rung of the ladder _I_ want you on.”
And how awful that your narc made such efforts for so long and then switched it off…. wow. 🙁 🙁
I always thought I have never been hoovered. Because he never reached out to me as in emailed or texted or anything.
But I guess it goes to show, you put yourself around them, and they will try. So this is that one version of hoovering that HG talks about, forget his technical terms, of a hoover because you are in their vicinity.
This would explain why at other times that I put myself in his proximity, he was indifferent, curt short. He had supply then. In this last one, I am 99% sure he had just ‘lost’ his latest attempt at a relationship. I am now even remembering wondering, since he is probably low on supply, if I contact him, I wonder if he would be so abrupt and indifferent? He wasn’t saying things to provoke a fight, and since they were positive, I thought maybe ‘he had healed’ from all the bad stuff between us to some degree.
So I guess I was right now that I remember, I was hoovered ‘as a friend’ as supply was low. I forgot, I was still in my ‘take back my power mode’ and revenge mode and I thought, well, if this is all true, he is now low on supply and all, then I would wound him alot by luring him in so to speak and then discarding him. It was one of the two things i consciously did. But I remember being confused when he did respond so positively and thinking, “uh-oh, I can’t do this again….” I can’t start dreaming and hoping and waiting again. So I stayed with my plan, but I remember being surprised by the strange words of friendship.
Wow. Jenna, that was a lightbulb moment that I have in fact been hoovered. It was so ‘innocent’ seeming. Like sure, after all, he lives in another country, its not like either of us is going to move anytime soon so why not be friends? Why not indeed.
I didn’t mean to derail but I actually just saw that I was in fact, hoovered by what you described.
Do you think your narc did it all on purpose? Do you think he planned to be a nice guy for a long time, get you to relax, get comfortable and then do that to you? If so, that is one sick agenda. Or do you think he was trying tp change and then just reacted and split back into who he always was and will always be?
Dear Jenna,
Time and Mr Tudor will help guide you through this.
Sadly, we’ve all been hurt to the core and feel the touch of your pain.
Please lovely Jenna, look after yourself.
Sending heartfelt hugs and 💜
Sotrainbow,
Thank u for ur kind words. I apologize for the delayed reply.
THE Jenna? Are you alright? I hope we hear more from you again!!
Hello kimi and others,
I apologize for my delayed reply as i have been unwell following the discard.
Kimi,
I am also grateful to have u touch my life. You are a truly caring person. Thank u for the kind words.
You are correct in stating ‘discarding is what they do’, and i cannot tell u how much reading that helped me in my healing.
Kimi and everyone,
Since we were just friends following my escape and his hoover, i thought i wud have an elongated golden period due to intermittent interaction, as per hg’s article. What i failed to realize is that once one has been intimate w a narc, he can never see her as ‘white’ forever. Hg did inform me that mmrn regards me as ipss rather than niss. Still, as ipss who does not engage in intimacy with him any longer, i thought being a friend wud grant me an everlasting golden period. It does not since him regarding me as ipss means just that – IPSS, and eventual discard (unless u r a v compliant dls is the only exception i believe). Mmrn did keep it up for 1.5 yrs. Great facade!
It was only after 1.5 yrs that he decided to engage with a new ipps, hence the cowardly ghosting discard. He had female niss and nits during our friendship phase. Now, he has a new ipps.
Kimi,
I am very glad to read that ur narc is a distant, blurry memory for u. They do not deserve our time at all.
Kimi and everyone,
Mine is nearly distant now too, but it took about 2.5 months (the first discard occurred several months ago) of panic, depression, confusion, reading, suicidal ideation, passing an almost ‘catatonic’ state, anxiety, consulting w hg, reading, consulting w hg, reading, thinking, overthinking, understanding (as much as i am able) to achieve what i have achieved now – FREEDOM!
(He blocked me on one messaging platform without a word. I do not think he blocked me elsewhere, and possibly thought i may contact him on another platform, as i have done twice before. This time i did not want to try. If if turns out that i am blocked there as well, i wud fall into an even more intense, more debilitating panic attack. I could not risk my health further, as there are pple in my life who need me).
I realized that i will not excuse his behavior becoz he has suffered childhood abuse. There are pple who have been abused in childhood who do not become narcs. I have more information on this topic which i will post another time.
I am proud to say that I HAVE SURVIVED, thx to hg! The mmrn uses silence the most (hg’s article on narc’s fuel matrix) and when they do engage, their words drip w sugar. This confuses a person to think that they are very very nice, or if one knows he is a narc, that he is going thru so much ‘effort’ to be kind. Wrong! Silence and shelving is wrong! If it were not wrong, i wud not have felt anxious when i engaged w him due to having to watch my words (walking on eggshells so as not to wound).
When the anxiety cleared, i felt like ME again. For four long years i was in the dark. The only light i saw was here, on this website, emanating as a brightly lit screen waiting and welcoming me, hearing the words of a mysterious savior who wants me on the other side.
I AM FREE!
I do not miss the depression.
I do not miss the anxiety.
I do not miss the panic attacks.
I do not miss the suicidal ideation.
I have MYSELF back!
Ty hg tudor. You are saving lives (suicidal ideation gone). You are preventing deaths. You are a gift to those who u do not hurt, by providing a very much needed source of information in an area that is highly lacking. U introspected deeply to give us this information, which is not easy. U deserve every ounce of admiration frm us.
Your work needs to be taught in high school. Screenings shud be done in middle school to identify possible developing narcs, and preventative measures shud be implemented. This is an epidemic. I realized i know close to 15 narcs. I thought he or she is just ‘bossy’, ‘mean’, or has a ‘temper’. No! These are narcs and they have been affecting me my entire life! Now i know to stay away. I will not accept poor treatment frm any of them any longer!
Much respect.
You are welcome
Jenna! You have covered so much ground during your short absence here. Proud of you! Keep putting you and your health first!
Hello star,
Yes it is naive of us to believe a friendship is possible. Pls see my reply to kimi for a more detailed explanation. I am sorry u were fooled into friendship also. And u are right abt wanting to get answers. I tried to get answers too, but sadly i will not know which answers were true, and which were not.
Continued healing to u, star. Ty for ur comment at a time when i really needed it! They provided me w strength, support, and encouragement 💕
Hello EB and everyone,
EB,
Ty for the kind words of support. “His decision has nothing to do with you.” < This, along w ur further explanation, helped me very much.
Pls read my more detailed reply to kimi. Being here and interacting w hg, u, and many others, has been my support. Nobody in my personal life understands to such an extent.
Perhaps if one has been w a lesser, who uses physical violence, friends and family will understand. If one is w a midranger or greater, one will not receive much support, i think. The facade is too strong for anyone to see (why can they not see it too? < article by that name or something similar by hg tudor).
I am happy to say he is not my friend any longer. A true friend wud not block me. Due to trauma bonding, i excused 2 previous blockings, becoz he wud be apologetic and EXTREMRLY kind afterwards.
EB and everyone,
Trauma bonding has real, significant, and a devastating impact! And becoz it is a bonding based on abuse, nobody will help. They will think u r crazy for staying.
If it wasn't for the blocking despite him knowing it affects me very adversely, i wud likely have been still engaging w him. A hurtful devalue allowed me to see the light. Once u r in the light, u do not want to go back into the darkness. Try to induce a devalue if u r stuck w an mmrn. U will see his true colors. Then, GOSO! U will be free! U will start seeing the colors of flowers, the cool breeze of the wind, the peaceful sound of birds chirping, again!
My dear clarece,
Ty for ur kind words and explanation. I was not able to reply much in february due to my ill emotional health. I appreciate ur patience. The comments i did make were done with trembling fingers (disasterous effects of narc contact).
Ur comment meant alot to me, as did comments frm other beautiful pple here. I returned to this page to reread, as it was very encouraging and helped me beyond measure.
Pls see my reply to kimi for a more detailed explanation of what transpired.
I have to admit, that while i tried to help him as much as my understanding of npd wud allow (some behavior i have trouble deciphering when he executes it, but hg helped me w that), i did challenge him ALOT. If the topic was brought up somehow, i wud ask ‘why did u do this’, ‘why did u do that?’ Sometimes, his answers were consistent, sometimes they were not. If they were not consistent, i wud point it out, thus challenging him further. He wud then start to become dismissive (usually), but this time he was plain mean.
Example:
Last yr:
Me:why did u register on that website?
Him: i thought i can do anything. I was wrong. I am a failed individual.
Me: ur npd made u do it. It is not ur fault. But i am glad u stopped. It is not right.
Him: u don’t have to say that, but i appreciate it. I am a sinner.
Me: pls don’t feel sad. I will try to help u understand urself
This yr:
Him: what did u tell ____ (insert name of lieutenant)?
Me: why don’t u ask him?
Him: it’s more important u tell me. By telling him, u ruined my life.
Me: i’m sorry but i was suicidal. I needed help frm someone. I did not want to hurt u, and i will never tell anyone again. I’ve learned my lesson.
Him: i registered but did not use the website
Me: why did u go on those websites in the first place? Why?!
Him: u shud try it. They work.
Me: u wud know
Him: yeah
Me: how many women were there?????!!!!!!
Him: Yeah, i f*ck around
Me: those websites are not ok!
Him: stop the bullsh*t
(First time he used foul language)
Now that i look back, gross!
Narc be gone! Thank god for the discard. I am out of the fog.
Wish u continued healing clarece.💕
Hello sarabella,
I am glad my story helped u to see that the narc in ur life in fact hoovered u.
I was first reluctant, then happy to be a friend to the mmrn at the beginning of the friendship phase, until he started becoming more secretive. In fact, after i found out abt the adult website during the igh 1.5 yrs ago, i no longer wanted to be intimate w him either, so u need not feel sorry abt that. But sometimes, when he was showing signs of changing and regret, i wud think abt intimacy.
I do not think he planned to discard me. I think he was truly depressed as he had lost a major fuel source and felt exposed. I believe his need for fuel was greater than his need for control at the time post hoover. Thus, he was kind, considerate, cooperative in answering all my questions. Fast fwd 1.5 yrs, since he has more fuel sources, his need for control is greater than his need for fuel, thus he is not tolerant of challenge. It all depends on the ENVIRONMENT. Nothing depends on their inner feelings, as they don’t really have any inner feelings. The only inner feelings they have are to do with envy, irritation, anger, fury, competition, winning, gaining respect and admiration. Thus, not having ‘soft’ feelings, the provider of the admiration can be easily interchanged.
I am glad u came back. We all need daily reminders. At least i do. When i start to see the positive in him, i quickly open my inbox and read at least 2 articles, and i am reminded how despicable he is.
Hg is a miracle in my life!
Continued healing to u, sarabella💗
Hello bubbles,
Ty for ur thoughtful comment. I am well on my way towards recovery. I have learned alot frm this experience, so i have changed somewhat, eg. not trusting so easily, but i do see many elements of my personality returning. I am sorry that u were hurt too. I hope that hurt is well in the past. Hugs to u bubbles. I know u like hugs!🌸
Jenna
I am so happy that you are free and have yourself back. Together, we can see the colors and feel the wind.
Love, K
Hello insatiable,
I was repying in order of comments but somehow i missed urs. I apologize. Pls see my replies to others as i have explained what happened. Ty for the prayers. I am feeling better now. Continued healing and freedom to u too, IL🌷
Hello K,
That is very sweet of u. Let’s smell the flowers and feel the wind together, yesss! Without narc thoughts haunting us!! 💗💗💗
Some where over the rainbow;
Thank you for sharing that story.
You see it through the best perspective. Good for you, AND good for the ex wife!!
Now that is what I call FREEDOM when it comes to deal with the narcissist and his/her abuse😃🙌🏻