Why Does The Narcissist Blow Hot and Cold? – Part Two


The hot and cold behaviour of an individual towards someone else is perplexing. Why is that person warm and friendly one moment and then cold and distant on another occasion when there has been no (at least to the recipient) change in circumstance? Why does this person engage with the recipient and then give a curt hello and move away? Why might they be in touch and then appear to lose interest? Such unexplained and distinct shifts in behaviour are invariably a manifestation of our behaviour. Many times people cannot work out why a romantic partner, a potential lover, a friend or family member behaves like this and it is because they have not worked outfirstly that this person is one of our kind and secondly they do not understand how our kind operate so as to make sense of this seemingly illogical and puzzling behaviour. As usual, it is built on the differing outlooks of the Victim Perspective and the Narcissistic Perspective (see Toxic Logic )

I explained previously why this hot and cold behaviour manifests between the narcissist and the Intimate Partner Primary Source (“the IPPS”) in Why Does He Blow Hot and Cold? This article looks at this manifestation of the dynamic in the relationship between narcissist and Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“IPSS”), Dirty Secret IPSS (“DSIPSS”) and the Non-Intimate Secondary Source (“NISS”).

The Intimate Partner Secondary Source

This is someone that the narcissist engages with romantically. It might be a friend with benefits arrangement, it might be an affair which is leading nowhere, it might be the commencement of a romantic relationship which is heading towards this person being crowned as IPPS. The IPSS comes in many guises as many people do not realise that they are actually an IPSS. Indeed, most commentators of the narcissistic dynamic only focus on the romantic relationship between our kind and the IPPS, failing to identify, recognise and understand that the romantic dynamic covers IPSS, DSIPSS and IPTS also, each with significant alterations in the usual narcissistic cycle that applies to the narcissist and the IPPS. For more about establishing where you might fit in do see What am I to Him? or consult with me. It is often quite difficult for people to establish where they fit into the relationship with us and often they are surprised to learnt they are an IPSS but it then all makes better sense to them in terms of their understanding.

What then of how blowing hot and cold applies to the IPSS?

During Seduction

The IPSS enjoys a golden period from the moment of being targeted and this will continue. The seduction might be to cause the IPSS to become an IPPS (Candidate IPSS) or to remain as an IPSS throughout (Shelf IPSS).

The Candidate IPSS during seduction will only experience ‘cold’ behaviour as a consequence of the narcissist testing that person to see how they will respond as part of the instinctive testing which goes on to ensure they will make an IPPS. Thus, the narcissist may not return a call for an hour. This is not devaluing behaviour and gives the appearance of appearing cold, but is purely a short measure to test. The narcissist is not going to do anything which risks losing this precious potential resource.

If the Candidate IPSS passes muster, she becomes the IPPS. If not, they become a Shelf IPSS.

Some targets very quickly become Shelf IPSSs, others follow the trajectory as a Candidate IPSS either succeeding and becoming the IPPS or not and thus remaining a Shelf IPSS.

The Shelf IPSS may experience what appears to be ‘cold’ behaviour from the narcissist but it is not devaluing behaviour. It is purely as a consequence of being placed on the shelf and because the narcissist is either engaging with an IPPS in a Respite Period or engaging with a different IPSS. This cold behaviour is not hearing from the narcissist, not having messages returned, or being politely rebuffed with promises of future meetings with the narcissist. It is essentially “I still want you but I am busy elsewhere at the moment but I will be back so do not go anywhere.”

Thus, if you have established that you are an IPSS, if the cold behaviour is short-lived, it is not devaluation but a test and you are a Candidate IPSS. If the cold behaviour is longer and is of the nature as described above then you are a Shelf IPSS and you have been placed on the shelf.

Remember, IPSSs enjoy long golden periods (so long as there is compliance) and therefore any cold behaviour detailed above is not devaluation but either a test or being placed on the shelf.


Devaluation is unusual for IPSSs. We have invested in the individual, we do not rely as heavily on their fuel as we do with the IPPS so there is less of a reason to commence devaluation. Indeed, with the IPSS devaluation arises more because the IPSS is not complying with what we want as opposed to their fuel becoming stale.

There are two types of devaluation with an IPSS. The Corrective Devaluation and the Dis – Engagement Devaluation. The former is where the IPSS is perhaps pressing to be seen by the narcissist more often, or might threaten to tell the narcissist’s IPPS about the relationship. This is challenging the narcissist’s authority. He sees no need to ditch the IPSS but the IPSS must know her place. Thus the narcissist will devalue you the IPSS in some way and also point out the error of the IPSS’s ways. This is an important distinction between the test or placing on the shelf behaviour which occurs during the seduction golden period. In those instances there is no injunction as to what the IPSS should do, they are not told. They just tend not to hear from the narcissist.

In the Corrective Devaluation where the narcissist blows cold, the IPSS may be told

“You are putting me under pressure when I do not need it, I have to have this weekend alone. I will be in touch in due course.” There then follows a Silent Treatment.

“You are making me look stupid. You need to get off my case. I won’t be in touch until you explain yourself and apologise.” There then follows a Silent Treatment.

“How dare you do that to me. After everything I am doing for you, you should show me more respect.” Row continues until IPSS apologises.

The narcissist may tear a strip off the IPSS, say something nasty, tell the IPSS they cannot come round and so forth. It is more proactive, more aggressive and likely to contain some kind of prescriptive injunction on the part of the narcissist,  than the Test or Placing on the Shelf.

The aim is not to drive the IPSS away but rather draw fuel and cause them to get back into line. Once they do, the golden period for the IPSS carries on.

In the Dis -Enagement Devaluation the unpleasant behaviour, the blowing cold will be more proactive and for longer. Therefore whereas with the Corrective it will be a short sharp burst with some direction – “I am sick and tired of you making demands on me, I do not know why I bother with you actually. Do not call me again today.” With the Dis -Engagement Devaluation this will go on for longer (although nowhere near the devaluation of the IPPS) and then dis-engagement will follow which will include blocking the IPSS rather than leaving any channels open.

In summary instances of what appears to be cold behaviour with an IPSS means as follows

  1. Short, lacking in venom, usually passive in nature – Test of the Candidate IPSS during golden period. Done to draw fuel but chiefly to test whether the IPSS should become the IPPS;
  2. Longer, lacking in venom, usually passive in nature, receive responses but non-committal or referring to future contact – Placing on Shelf during golden period. Done to allow narcissist to focus on other sources whilst keeping IPSS in place for future use;
  3. Short, may be passive or aggressive, with prescriptive behaviour – Corrective Devaluation. Done to draw fuel and get the IPSS back in line and under control
  4. Longer but not extensive, may be passive or aggressive, no prescriptive behaviour, cutting of communication lines follows – Dis – Engagement. Done to draw fuel, to punish the IPSS for non-compliance and then remove them as they are regarded as disloyal.

The Dirty Secret IPSS

For a reminder about the key points of this IPSS please see Dirty Little Secret .

How does the narcissist blowing hot and cold manifest in the dynamic with the DS IPSS?


During the golden period the narcissist will not blow cold for a short period of time with the DS IPSS. The nature of the dynamic is short frequent liaisons and therefore if there is a chance to snatch a drink together for half and hour or a knee-trembler in the woods it will be taken. If the narcissist is unable to meet, he will explain so and then be in touch very soon thereafter to arrange an alternative time to meet.

Accordingly, when there is a blowing cold from the narcissist during the golden period, it will be for sustained period and this means that the DS IPSS has been placed on the shelf. This will manifest with a clear explanation that the narcissist cannot meet – for example, if he is going on holiday with the IPPS and he will tell the DS IPSS that this is the case.

It is unusual for a DS IPSS to be placed on the shelf, they tend to be drawn on regularly but for short periods of time.


Again, the devaluation of a DS IPSS is unusual and it will usually be because the DS IPSS is failing to comply and do what the narcissist wants.

Similar to the IPSS, the DS IPSS will face both Corrective and Dis -Engagement Devaluation in the manner described above.

If the DS IPSS experiences blowing cold from the narcissist then this is far more likely to mean that it is devaluation and then dis- engagement. The Test does not happen with the DS IPSS and Placing on the Shelf is much rarer. The Corrective Devaluation will be obvious because the narcissist will issue some prescriptive injunction telling the DS IPSS how they should ‘shape up’. Accordingly, if you find that the narcissist is not responding to your calls, is ignoring you, is not making arrangements to meet, is failing to turn up and is not offering any explanation and you recognise you are a DS IPSS then it means you are experiencing the dis- engagement devaluation and dis- engagement is not far away.

If the DS IPSS does not hear from the narcissist for some time, with no explanation then they have been dis-engaged from by the narcissist.

In summary for the DS IPSS:-

  1. No Test takes place akin to the IPSS;
  2. Placing on the Shelf is rare – the cold behaviour will have an explanation attached and assurances of future contact showing it is placing on the shelf;
  3. Corrective Devaluation occurs – the narcissist will blow cold, more likely to be aggressive in behaviour and will stipulate a desired outcome;
  4. Dis-engagement Devaluation – the most likely occurrence of a narcissist blowing cold with the DS IPSS.

Non-Intimate Secondary Source (“NISS”)

This category of secondary source covers friends, colleagues and family.

Golden Period Seduction

There is no seduction of a familial NISS. They are already embedded by reason of familial connection but they will enjoy a golden period thereafter. A familial NISS, from this embedded position, may be tested by the narcissist from the perspective of appointing that person as a Lieutenant, but it is rare. The familial connection is deemed to be sufficiently strong in most cases to generate reliance on that source as a Lieutenant.

It is also rare for there to be a Test of the colleague or friend NISS because this is not seen as necessary given their lesser importance in the fuel matrix. If it does occur it might be because that person is being earmarked for being made a Lieutenant and in such instances any blowing cold will be short in nature to see if the social or colleague NISS approaches the narcissist to find out what is wrong etc in order to test their loyalty.


Any blowing cold which does occur and is associated with some kind of prescriptive injunction will be Corrective Devaluation which is applied to familial, social and colleague NISSs. The blowing cold will be brief however because one who does not accord with the desires of the narcissist can readily be dis- engaged from and replaced. Indeed, colleague, familial and social NISSs are largely expendable compared to the IPSS.

If the NISS does not respond to the corrective devaluation then there may not even be a dis -engagement devaluation and the dis – engagement follow swiftly after. In a sense, the Corrective and Dis- Engagement Devaluations are the same thing when dealing with NISSs. Unless the NISS has been especially treacherous and therefore they are to be punished through a longer devaluation, it is usually the case that a failed Corrective Devaluation will result in the NISS being dis-engaged from and replaced.

Accordingly, when the narcissist blows hot and cold with secondary sources, it is effectively the case that the blowing hot is to be regarded as the default position because these sources are easier to seduce and enjoy longer golden periods. When the blowing cold occurs it will be for fuel (utilising the contrasting techniques mentioned in part one of this series) but also to either Test, Shelf, Correctively Devalue or for the purposes of a Dis-Engagement Devaluation.





242 thoughts on “Why Does The Narcissist Blow Hot and Cold? – Part Two”

  1. omg 😁 ” co dependant cookies.Doormat donuts, food that tastes like cardboard ” giggles.. damn you can be so likeable HG.

  2. HG I think it’s objectively strange for narcissist to tell something like that to his appliance. It is what you told they don’t do. I didn’t read that someone here posted something similar. I would like your opinion naturally, but I think it would be useful for others as well beçause it’s unusual example of behaviour . If you find it too regarding to my personal situation, just say “it’s consultation thing”. Is that ok?

  3. And yes HG I am moved for you looking after my benefit with GOSO answer. Sometimes I’m not sure that you can’t get psychological profile of us by only a few thoughts that we share here I even wonder if you know where we at. The battle number two is still on. Also he said something to me really unusual from point of mid-renger’s behaviour, even from the greater’s ( he could be greater by his ability to plot and scheme and intelligence, but definitely is mid-renger because of his pity play behaviour, thought he’s somatic but would rather go with elite because of celebral component ) It is the opposite of what you taught us, maybe Chaos Mode has different rules of behaviour…I would like to share and your opinion on that but not sure under what topic to comment. Is here fine?

    1. If it is detailed with regard to your personal situation, the appropriate forum for it to be addressed is through a consultation.

      1. HG I’m not sure whether I was supposed to post this or not.Never seen that someone here wrote about something like this.So,here it goes.Narcissist is elite mid-renger. Without IPPS for more than two years. He really loves trips to Holland, if you know what I mean,he likes to drink also. When they are high, he likes to tell stories to IPSS. She escaped not long time ago, then she came back. She likes his storytelling and he knows that. Story begins like any other …” We are in my canoe, strolling down the river…now you are on the shore, I’m in canoe still. Why am I in canoe?” IPSS suddenly doesn’t like where story is going, says that she doesn’t know and that he can be there if he likes it. Doesn’t wanna play. “But why am I in canoe?Is it emotion?Is it need?”, he doesn’t give up. “I am MIRRORING you.” ( He uses this exactly word.In English.English is not their first language. Their language doesn’t have word for mirroring.You can look in the mirror and that’s it.It is object, never subject.) “Come and get me.How hard are you gonna fight to come and get me? Fight harder. How hard are you gonna fight to get yourself? How hard do you want yourself?” IPSS didn’t expect that at all, tries to change the subject, he seems to loose his grip about that, talks about something completely else, she think that he forgot and after half an our he is back again. “…and where was I? O, the canoe!” She sad that she doesn’t want the canoe story. “O, but you are in a box, you are in my box. You are all in my boxes. I am in charge. I was always in charge. I don’t know what made you think that you were ever in charge. It is my game and my rules.” IPSS tries to remain calm. “O, and when will it stop?” asks casually. Than he says “Well, technically, it will never stop.It is for eternity. And now let me tell you about when I…”
        What narcissistic behaviour is that? I thought that they never tell what they are doing? I tought that mid-renger doesn’t even know? Can you explain this behaviour without regarding personally to my situation.Simply,why would narcissist do something like that. It almost sounded like one of your confession stories.

  4. HG and K maybe I didn’t make myself clear about my motives for asking that question. I didn’t ask it because I wan’t to pass that test. Not long ago I found out that I was obviously Candidate IPSS for some time. One of people he use to hang out with told me that he refferred to me as “Candidate” He told them that there were others women, but only called me that and talked about me a lot. They even called me “The Candidate” ’till they met me and I had a name.They don’t know nothing about narcissistic disorder and I didn’t think it was mine to tell them.Strange thing is that English is not our mother’s tongue, but he picked up the same word as HG, spelling in my language is even almost the same as in English. After reading this blog I never thought I was ever one, because he blew cold from the start. Reading this article I came across the test thing. He was without IPPS for more than a year when I met him and still is for more than a two years and obviously in Chaos Mode. This thing about “The Candidate” came to me as suprise I thought that I was Shelf IPSS, but I really was never shelved much. I was never promoted to IPPS, so I must did something right to fail that test. I wanted to know what was that, what “anticandidate”, normal reaction to manipulation do I have.

  5. HG what is expected from Candidate IPSS to pass the test, how she should respond to Narcissist blowing cold for him to be satisfied?

        1. Twilight
          I would get a giant, fat “F” because I would flunk that test now. The efficacy of NC is mind blowing.

          1. K

            Lol the best I can do is try and not show traits one desires for an IPPS. Usually this works and can keep things in with those I keep on a professional level. At the moment thou I am dealing with one that has been determined to make me his GF, he called me thou and said he was moving back to his home state and tried to convince me I needed to move there to. I am getting pretty darn good with saying no, actually that was a hell no to moving.

          2. Twilight,

            Way to go!! Spot them, reject them, and avoid the inevitable problems. Our experiences and our education here is saving us!

          3. Twilight
            Good luck hiding those traits because you are a beacon that promises refuge from the storm and you will always be targeted; predator v prey.
            Narcissists are very determined and if you hold out and keeping saying, “Hell no” they will leave you alone, eventually. And it gets easier each time; they really are predictable.

          4. K

            I would question the eventually….this one doesn’t understand the word no, Idk maybe I am speaking a language he doesn’t understand. This is actually the first time I have ever encountered one this determined

          5. You are welcome, Twilight
            You must be providing some fuel, when is he moving?

          6. Twilight
            He hit pay dirt; anger is excellent fuel! No wonder he is persistent. Keep up the low contact and reduced fuel regime until the big move.

          7. K

            I think when I became angrier the a bell hornet at him did it. He did a 180 and changed tactics and really started the entire GF/BF issue. Not to long ago I told him he messed up when I realized he was provoking me. After that it was never going to happen.
            I am polite to him just avoid any situations that call for it to be just him and I.

  6. HG what is expected from Candidate IPSS to pass the test? How she should respond to Narcissist blowing cold for him to be satisfied?

      1. Echo

        I suggest you heed that advice I was Candidate and it’s not going to go well for you. You will not somehow be the exception to the rule.

  7. 1. Why does a midrange narcissist tell the Shelf IPSS that he is interested but ends up placing her on the shelf?

    He was never 100% interested but he still told me that he was interested.

    2. What does his being interested mean? Does this mean that he was only interested in just having a flirtation/F.W.B. type of relationship?

    1. To keep her attached and interested so he can hoover her off the shelf with ease when necessary.

      1. This was during the seduction when I was hearing from him a lot. He changed his story and says that he just wants to flirt or be friends with benefits now. I asked why he isn’t interested (now) and he says it is because he has a gut feeling that makes him not interested in more with me.

        But a general question, what does a narcissist mean when he refers to his gut feeling? Is this that gut instinct that you refer to when narcissists sniff out targets for a primary source role for the most effective fuel?

  8. K… I was just able to read and find your answer today about my sick mom.
    Funny how my father always said that I would be his ” Old days stick” meaning I would be the one taking care of him when in old age. To be honest, I am not the most empathetic person in the sense that I am not such a people person. But it is true that I easily put myself in their shoes, but don’t like to help that much. I get tired of it and people drain me to be honest.
    I am an introvert and can spend days in my head , just found out I am a magnet empath.
    My narc also says I would be the best one to take care of him in his old days.
    That is an image people have about me, but it is not me. I know I am not good, nor I like to do it.
    I liked to do it s a kid with my mom, because I felt responsible for the family , I felt important and I felt I was in charge and autonomous.
    I still have the letters that my father wrote to me when he was away working and it litteraly says to be a good girl, to help my mom, to take care of my siblings and to not fight with them.
    Such conditionning.
    In therapy, I have learned that I only feel I deserve love when I am a good girl and when love is taken away when I am a good girl, I become crazy… Love being taken away when you are good girl… happened with my Narcs… And yes… I became crazy!! Hell yes!!!
    Thanks for asking, I must say I am moving positively on the continuum between ET and LT so happy about that!

    1. On my journey,
      I’m so glad to have read this. It mirrors my experience quite a lot. Although I test as an extrovert, I feel like an introvert. And have been encouraged to be “good” whatever it means to the person judging me. What you have shared here is helpful to me and gives me some more things I need to think about and deal with.
      Thank you so much.

      1. Perse … My LNP therapist brought this to my attention . I was saying all the time «  I don’t understand «  until we went to the core that I don’t understand if someone does not love me despite being a good girl even worse if they withdraw their love while I am being good… the the whole infernal cycle of fear of abandonment grows like a hurricane . Because being good respond to the fear of abandonment … So I also did the therapy on fear of abandonment and I must say it did changed a lot of things . So this blog and HG came at a very good time- when I was putting all the pieces together. I had stayed with my Narc to test my therapy on fear of abandonment and I succeeded. Now I get the other pieces of the puzzle here. I am grateful .

    2. You are welcome, On my journey
      Removing love from a child for any reason is such a betrayal of trust. My MMRN told me his nana and mother took their “love” away and he became a narcissist. I am sorry that you went through that, you deserved better. I agree, things really do get better when you replace ET with LT and I am much happier now, as well.

  9. I have been ensnared by 5 narcissists and they always placed me as IPSS (F.W.B.). I wouldn’t say DLIPSS because we all had friends in common and I was a candidate for one of them who is a Elite narc.

    My question is since I never become the IPPS, does this mean I am under the “normal” category? But I get placed as IPSS. Are “normals” placed as IPSS? Or just empaths?

      1. Okay, thank you. But the fact that i have been placed in limbo as IPSS 5 times and never make the grade, doesn’t this mean that I am more likely under the “normals” category? … although i do have empathic traits and was a candidate once.

  10. HG
    There is a comment in moderation for On my journey, should I repost it or wait and see if it comes out of moderation?

  11. Can I just jump in -without reading 200 comments, and say to the person thinking of going to a concert to exact revenge

    Don’t bother. Firstly, if you want REAL revenge, buy HG’s book “Revenge” . It’s only like 6 bucks on kindle. Possibly the best 6 bucks I ever spent. For one thing, if I want revenge, I know how to do it perfectly. Secondly, by the time I was finished reading, I realized it was way too much effort , and that in general I’m super happy just being NC….the best revenge is living well. Right.? It was an exellemt laugh to read, and very informative , very valuable insight.

    The book explains where and how to hit em where it hurts, if you want to bother.

    Secondly, revenge is a dish best served cold…right?

    Get OVER the guy first. Get some space, mentally. There is immense satisfaction in just ditching them. One of mine, is only realizing , FOUR MONTHS,LATER, that I’m not coming back. ( I hear bcuz I’m in a small community) I’m well over him, and he’s JUST figuring it out. Because he thought id come back as I usually do, he didn’t set up new supply. It’s hilarious.
    Of course now he’s hoovering via a mutual friend, but he’s weak on fuel, so it’s a small, pathetic attempt and I’m getting a laugh out of it, without falling for it.

    Just VANISH. It’s gratifying. Cut all contact. Then read HG’s book. THEN decide if you want revenge , and if you do, you’ll be in a position of power to exact it.

  12. To K and Jenna K I will do an email not audio I can’t afford the audio and even if I could I’d never do it HGS voice is too overwhelming for me I would not be able to even remember what I want to say and it would end up being a waste of money if I can’t get out the words I want to Jenna I’m glad to see you back or maybe you were here all along but not commenting I was worried about your noticeable abscence

    1. Actually, Ugotit, HG’s voice during a consult is very comforting. It is very pleasant to listen to. He pauses and lets you speak and finish, asks important questions to elicit relevant information. He sounds like a counselor, a mentor, a guide, an adviser, full of understanding and support. It is not overwhelming at all. I would talk to him every day if I could. If you could ever swing it financially, it is so worth it. You will be so glad you did. You will feel stronger and empowered.

      1. Maybe not every day but every fortnight would be nice. Ha Ha! HG has a very calming energy that he applies. Reduces anxiety. It feels good, not intimidating.

      2. “I do have a sign across my iMac saying “Remember to let them speak””. This is hilarious, HG! I love your sense of humor! Like I said before, I would be in so much trouble if I knew you in the real world. Are you looking for a new IPPS? If so, how do I apply? 🙂

        1. I think HG stole this from 45 who had notes on an index card to remind himself to pretend to care about the Parkland shooting. victims. Remember, he doesn’t care.

      3. Insatiable I replied already under the wrong thread I do not want an audio because HGS voice turns me on not good idea lol

    2. Hi kim,

      Yes i was not commenting for awhile but i was still reading. I cannot stay away frm this place! Btw, I am narc free now!!

      I do believe an email consult will be of assistance too.

      And ty for thinking about me!

  13. A bad man will find you in peace–and leave you in pieces—- a good man will find you in pieces and led you to peace!!!

      1. Pizza annihilates my insides. Gluten free is mostly ok, but sometimes that troubles me too. Sucks!

      2. GAH! (drool)

        I miss pizza sooooooooooo much! Frustrating. Gotta have NO grain products, or my joints kinda freeze up when I don’t move. constantly, and hurt even if I keep moving. Makes it very hard to eat away from the house, much.


        I’ve tried these Asiago cheese little round things like rolls. The texture is wonderful and they are made with tapioca flour. I’ve gotten them at Brazilian barbeque restaurants, and in the frozen foods under brand name Brazibites. They are also gluten free. Hope you can find some to try.

        I want to find the recipe for them. The dough would make excellent pizza crust, even if it is high in simple carbs.

      3. Thanks for the recommendation Perse. My issue with pizza is that the bread is too rough on me, so literally I will be in cramping pain for at least 2 days afterwards.

      4. Jenna,
        Thanks for the reminder.

        Please do pardon me, HG.
        It is, after all, Pizza……

      5. Pizza Theaction,

        I have been pondering this since I read it last night. I couldn’t figure out what this name meant?
        This morning, (-‸ლ) !
        I wish my brain wasn’t so slow to ketchup!

        1. Must be some kind of British slang, cause I still haven’t caught up. There are real pizza restaurants called that according to google. (One in Northern Ireland and one in Scotland) must be some cutesy name. Enlighten me Perse.

    1. Nah, if a good man finds you in pieces, he’ll move on to someone who is already at peace. A normal, healthy individual does not try to build someone up, heal them or help them. A healthy individual seeks another healthy individual to have an equal relationship with.

  14. I have learned to LOVE the shelf!!! I gain strength there- room to be me again, and angles on which to ‘mess’ with his head when he returns- I am learning to enjoy the game— with my secret weapon! I am watching him fall apart knowing some of it is from my SuperNova and Revenge plan and he does not know I did it– but I get to watch! That and my make-over, new clothes, new guy- fun life- my business taking off and travel plans really mess with his head! PLUS- he found out (I don’t know how??????) His new IPPS– has been married five times, the last time 2 weeks before husband died, she is a gold-digger— ‘infamous’ woman in the US– and he was parading her around as a prize– and now he knows what and who she is and is so embarrassed!! Ah– poor boy—- Thanks HG— revenge is indeed best served cold!!!!

  15. Hello gabs and everyone who believes piano man treats his wife poorly,

    I believe piano man’s wife might be experiencing ‘stepford devaluation’ (article by hg tudor). The wife is treated fairly well but she must keep the house and kids in order. The dls’s will be treated poorly. He gets positive fuel frm the wife and negative fuel frm the dls. The wife will be fairly happy in such a situation becoz she may not know abt his cheating, thinks he has stopped, or knows abt it but has accepted it. In piano man’s case, i believe she thinks he has stopped.

    Pls read ‘stepford deval’ by hg tudor.

    I realized recently that a good friend of mine is the carrier empath of a greater narc who subjects her to stepford devaluation. She is treated very well but she takes exceptional care of cooking, cleaning, decor, kids, kids’ extracurricular activities. Their home is perfect, nothing out of place, most of the furniture is white (white is difficult to maintain). The walls have lovely decor, large pieces of art placed very strategically to showcase modern art. The only prblm is, he’s barely ever home.

    When i was over recently, i asked her when her husband wud be coming home, and she said ‘it depends’ and her daughter said ‘like 11’ (pm). I know he makes very frequent business trips, and they have relocated 4x in 10 yrs (to be closer to the newly acquired dls perhaps). Why decorate the home meticulously, change the flooring to a gorgeous light bamboo, have numerous large pieces of art, only to relocate again and again? She told me abt 7 yrs ago that he cheated on her, in a very passing statement (she was not well emotionally at the time). I think she has since forgotten that she disclosed this information to me. Now, she thinks he has reformed. She thinks very highly of him. She likes to be ready with makeup on when he gets home. Once we were talking on the phone, and she told me something, and then inserted ‘he is so nice’ after the statement she wanted to say. She did not need to add ‘he is so nice’ but obviously felt an overwhelming desire to just get that out. This alarmed me becoz no husband can be so nice ALL THE TIME after 10+ yrs of marriage. This is what set off the red flag for me, and then i started to remember the prior cheating, the frequent relocations (she is now back in my state), his frequent ‘business trips’. She also had a look of utter shock and bewilderment when i recently visited her and told her my signif. other (normal, not empath, not narc) is not always attentive towards me. Her head sprung back and she opened her eyes wide and looked to the floor for several seconds in absolute disbelief. She then started giving me advice on how it’s very important to be attentive to each other.

    She also told me during this visit: ‘do u know what my husband says? What pple do, what pple say, and what pple think are 3 different things.’ This was red flag#2, but she was saying it as if her husband is so wise. When i was leaving, i asked when he wud be home so as not to disturb their family time, and that is when i learned that he returns by 11pm!! This husband has an office job, so why return at 11pm every day? I can understand if one is in a profession that tends to emergencies at all hours, but he is not in such a profession.

    I will not tell her my suspicions. It will destroy her. He is everything to her. Let her live under the facade. She is happy. The kids are happy. Let them be.

    1. I would like to add, since the husband is always working in her eyes, she thinks he is very dutiful. She feels that he is very devoted to providing for his family. She cooks him exactly what he likes, and is happy to do it. She starts her cooking around 11am. Sometimes she calls me while she is cooking to see how i am doing (she is a carrier empath after all) and offered to get me groceries if i am unwell (she does not know abt my narc entanglement but knows i have been unwell). Her daughter’s behavior was exemplary while i visited. At lunch, the daughter stood next to me at the table where i was sat, and asked ‘what can i get u to drink?’ After lunch was over, the daughter stood again and asked ‘may i take ur plate?’ I said ‘it’s ok sweety, i’m getting up now anyways.’ I later told my friend her daughter is exceptionally behaved and if she is responsible for this? My friend replied ‘______ (insert husband’s name) and i are both involved in raising the kids’.

      Gabs, do u see signs of extreme happiness frm piano man’s wife on social media? Is she always smiling? Does it seem like a genuine smile or forced? Is she beautiful? I see some stepford deval cases on social media (my new habit to recognize these) where the wife is not necessarily beautiful in looks, but very expressive (hugeeee smile, lots of body language, very appreciative in their captions towards the husband, thus more fuel). Is his daughter involved in extra curricular activities? Is she very well behaved? If so, it may be a case of stepford deval. Do note that not all cases of stepford deval need be very well off. A moderately maintained home will suffice.

      1. I do wonder if in some stepford situations its actually two narcissists involved. The stepford wife being a somatic in some cases where the facade and acquired money and material things are more important than what the narc husband is doing on the side. Theyd more or less turn a blind eye to it and in some cases may even be involved themselves. Maybe what looks like devaluation is actually not because the other spouse is as much into keeping the facade going. Being a midranger in most cases tho i could see where thered be pity plays on and off. Ive not known a stepford situation irl but the sopranos comes to mind where i think tonys wife was a midrange somatic narc. She turned a blind eye to the horrible things he did to keep her world intact.

      2. I was pondering over this situation and it just occured to me that my friend’s family relocates often (to possibly be closer to dls) but at the same time, the husband makes frequent business trips (to visit out of town dls i assume). So, is the dls local or is she out of town? I believe the answer is both. One dls who he engages most with, will be local, and one dls who he cannot afford much time towards, will be long distance (that is u, gabriel). There may be 1 or more local dls, and there may be 1 or more long distance dls. Piano guy is not only cheating on his wife, he is cheating on u w the local dls. Ask him what time he gets home frm work. If he tells the truth, that he gets home late (but note it will be due to dls not due to work), then this is an indicator that he is engaging frequently/giving alot of his time to the local dls. If he has suddenly changed his texting responses it means he is adopting her frequently used texting responses, ie. acquiring character traits frm her.
        The mmrn i was entangled w wud reply with ‘xyz’ word such as ‘ahaan’ many times in a text convo only when the female ipss (flirting, dating, holding hands, no sex) was in his life. When she was shelved, he wud not use that word at all, not once. I realized this tell tale sign only towards the end.

      3. So basically, we have a primary dls (dlsps – dls primary source lol!) and secondary dls (dls ss – dls secondary source). You, gabrielle, are the dls ss. There may be more than one dls ss. My terminology may be wrong but it makes it easier to understand.

      4. “Gabs, do u see signs of extreme happiness frm piano man’s wife on social media? Is she always smiling? Does it seem like a genuine smile or forced? Is she beautiful? I see some stepford deval cases on social media (my new habit to recognize these) where the wife is not necessarily beautiful in looks, but very expressive (hugeeee smile, lots of body language, very appreciative in their captions towards the husband, thus more fuel). Is his daughter involved in extra curricular activities? Is she very well behaved?”

        Yes, her social media is rainbows and sunshine from what I can see. Oh and it is all hers. His social media is a GHOST TOWN. I cannot tell if the smile if forced or genuine but it seems genuine to me. I am not one to comment on beauty as I have such a poor opinion of myself and I am jealous of her so yeah I think she is def way prettier than me. I associate the word “Stepford” with that of someone who is wealthy and well off. I did read the article HG posted about it but dismissed it as not applicable to my situation. Piano man is not well off, least not that he claims to be. He often said he lives paycheck to paycheck, is in debt and had to re-fi his house to finally get some extra money each month. He has a day job as a receptionist at a doctor’s office. The piano/musician thing (his main passion) is a side gig which I think never made it to a “main” gig if you catch my drift. (he tends to do small shows and wedding gigs). Anyway sorry to go off on a tangent but they do not have the “ornate fancy house” that you describe nor designer fancy things.

        However from what I am told and can tell the wife is very impressive towards him on social media, complimentary (i.e. “my husband is the greatest” and she will occasionally share some music project he worked on, etc.). From what I can tell, she maintains the home and takes care of their daughter. She does have activities (ballet, swimming, bible study, yes even PIANO LESSONS (LOL following in her father’s footsteps of course) which are posted about on social media. I have never met his daughter but she always has a smile on her face and is dressed nicely. Dresses, matching dress shoes, bow in her hair, etc.

        Is she well behaved? Interesting question as I do not know her only what I see on social media or what he tells me. I recall a phone call we had where he was upset at his daughter because she was having a hard time adjusting to Kindergarten (she was the oldest one in the class and was bored) she was acting up and stuff and he went on and on like it was the end of the world, almost like his kid’s behavior was a reflection on him (does not shock me since he has the oh so polite religious facade) …

        Anyway all of that aside I can sort of see where you are going here with this whole Stepford thing. Can a mid range be part of that and not have the glittery glitzy rich lifestyle? They definitely DO NOT have that but the rest of what you inquire about seems to definitely fit.

      5. In terms of sex, i am postulating the following. The local or primary dls will receive the most sex. It will be frequent and uninhibited, in different positions. The wife will receive less frequent sex. It will be gentle, caring, and inhibited (most likely missionary gazing into her eyes). He needs to maintain the facade very carefully in front of her. The long distance dls will receive the most infrequent sex, but it will be uninhibited, in different positions. I may be wrong. I hope hg enlightens us more abt the married narc via an article. It wud be interesting to read how a married greater wud treat various dls vs. a married midranger. I assume the greater wud have more dls due to his ability to secure them. The midranger wud have less dls and become depressed and withdrawn during times of deprivation.

      6. Piano man invited u to his piano recital becoz this will give him a high. His wife, his long distance dls, and his local dls all coming to admire him! He will feel omnipotent, god like, in full control over all of u. His depression will vanish (although for a short time only). But if any of the dls tell each other, or the wife, or interact and exchange info at the recital, he is screwed. Thus, he will only invite very compliant dls.

        1. Good to see your screen name pop up Jenna! I’ve missed you!
          So there is a local DLS in the mix? Yeah it would not surprise me. I always had suspicions he was still caught up with the girl before me too (the one he got caught with) as she was local to him.

          I replied to your Stepford inquiry but I think my comment is still in moderation so hopefully you’ll see that soon.

          Very complaint DLSs get invited? LOL. My fuel is obviously stale and I have always wanted more than what he will give me but for the most part I am compliant which I guess makes sense if I got an invite. And yeah he is taking a chance by inviting everyone but I have no idea who else was “invited”. It actually is a public show and anyone in the general public can buy a ticket. His “invitation” is more or less a “comped” ticket if you know what I mean. At least that is how it was at the first run of the show. His wife was not there and it was a very small crowd. Other than everyone’s fuel flowing I have no idea what his angle is. Maybe he does not care who he invites as long as he gets as much fuel as possible?

      7. What is real life behind those facebook posts?


        This applies to adults posts, too. You don’t post bruises and black eyes on social media!
        It’s also everprescence of the golden period.

        Shut down your social media. If those people on there mean anything to you, have a relationship IRL.

      8. Extreme codependency often looks like narcissism. They are at extreme ends of the empathy scale. Both seek to comtrol and validation from outside themselves. Their core wound is the same only a narcs so severe that they constructed a false self. Both conditions are a dysfunctional relationship with self. So often an extreme codependent will look like a narcissist. That’s why narcs love Codependents and vice versa because there is a sense of familiarity between them as their wound are the same they just manifest differently

      9. Jenna,

        “I assume the greater wud have more dls due to his ability to secure them. The midranger wud have less dls and become depressed and withdrawn during times of deprivation.”

        This sounds about right to me but I’m curious what HG thinks. I know you and HQ and NA and a few others have said that piano turd likes to “F the Fuel right out of me” and I mean that statement literally. His behavior, fuel seeking as it is, is also comparable to that of a sex addict. He is a sexual monster. I have no idea what goes on with the wifey (he used to lament that they did it “once a month”) but with me he was always a monster. He was raunchy and kinky and did some weird stuff. It was never degrading to me or anything though, he always asked me if I was okay or comfortable and we kept an open discussion going about what we liked or didn’t like, if anything he often wanted ME to boss him around. I mean sure he had a few requests (some a bit odd but I obliged) but if I did not want to do a certain thing it was never an issue. The sex remained in the golden period where as his emotional attention did not. Does that explanation make sense?

        I thought it was weird when you said translated the line of “I do not feel in control over my body when I have sex with you” …. he seems to enjoy the sex but then again you said it is more about the emotional reaction of the FUEL. If that is the thing then why the sex? Aren’t there other ways to get positive or negative emotional fuel? I mean for fucks sake I wrote him something called “40 Reasons Why I Love You” (and only 10 of those reasons were naughty). I wrote it and I read it to him face to face before his first show as I was in tears from it being an emotional thing. You cannot get much more emotional than that. So why the sex? Sex addict much? He has been with A LOT of partners.

      10. Hi perse,

        I just watched the video you linked us to. It is very powerful. A good reminder. Thank you.

  16. Hi NarcAffair, thank you for understanding my viewpoint! I appreciate it! I did want to ask you about the following: “My narc does the same but i no longer get upset when he shelves me.” I recall you writing elsewhere that you wake up every morning with severe anxiety (you wrote this a few days ago). So, how is this consistent with you now saying you no longer get upset?

    1. Hi insatiable learner…the anxiety is no longer the narc its other areas of my life. That said i wont say i never get upset over the narc i do but not to the extent i used to. I used to be heartbroken and so absorbed by it all i couldnt function properly. I used to ask why is he different what did i do? Could i have prevented his treatment of me. Thats where all the info here is invaluable bc it makes you realise its the npd why the narcs treat us this way.

      1. I appreciate the clarification, NarcAffair. I am glad you were able to get a good handle on the situation and control your emotions or rather the extent to which the narc’s behavior affects you. I was never able to do that. Like you said, I could not function properly at all. I was constantly preoccupied with him, ruminating, obsessing, trying to appease, constantly insecure, struggling with low self-esteem, pining for him, etc. It was horrible. So debilitating and paralyzing. He now has a new IPPS and I have been shelved apparently (based on my consult with HG) indefinitely. I have not seen him in over a year and a half and have not spoken to him for a few months now. I am doing much better. Thank you for this opportunity to share.

  17. NarcAffair, I wanted to address your comment to Gabs about the narc’s cyclical behavior and it not being personal but stemming from their disorder. Even though you may have very good intentions in trying to comfort Gabs and ease her pain, I think this may also be a disservice. it is normalizing the situation and making it sound like it is acceptable and sustainable. I think it is very damaging to Gabbs. Unlike you, who is married and has a life partner, regardless of you being happy or unhappy in it (after all you are staying in your marriage) and the narc is your distraction on the side (no moral judgment here), for Gabbs, who is not married and, from what I understand, may not even have any other serious relationship, this narc is her whole world. It sounds like no other man has a chance. He is wasting her time and robbing her of an opportunity to find a life partner, get married, and have a committed relationship with someone. Time and life wait for no one. Time lost can never be gained.

    1. Hi insatiable listener…i mean no disservice at all what i was trying to point out is were all appliances and to not feel its her fault. The needing proof i think is to feel its not her personally why he treats her this way. Im sure hes treated the rest of his appliances in a similiar manner. Its not right and my point wasnt to put up with it no, not at all. Weve learned here the primary source aka his wife will get the harshest devaluing and i believe that to be true!

      1. Hi NarcAffair, thank you for clarifying! I think many of us struggle or struggled with “what if this is personal and I am the only one he treats this way.” This is what we, unhealed empaths, do. Blaming ourselves and wondering what is missing in us and how we can do better to be treated better, which, of course, is utter rubbish. We are not that powerful to make others mistreat us and we are not that powerful to change them so they will stop to mistreat us. Once we understand and embrace narcs do not have a disorder, they are the disorder, meaning everything they are and everything they do is this disorder, we will stop taking this personally and realize this has never been and never will be about us. Then we can detach and be free. Peace and healing to you.

      2. Insatiable Learner, I have read Narc Affair’s comments in 5 different ways, even standing on my head, and all I have seen is that she is reminding Gabs that she is not to blame, much the same as HG reminds us all that we are not to blame. In contrast I find your comment, “He is wasting her time and robbing her of an opportunity to find a life partner, get married, and have a committed relationship with someone.”, does do Gabs a disservice by suggesting that the fact that she is not moving on with her life is somehow his fault. Yes, her Piano Man is a narc, he targeted her, manipulated her, abused her, future faked, triangulated her, blame shifted, and brought her into this toxic situation, knowing all along that he was married and wouldn’t leave his wife. But at some point, Gabs is responsible for her own choices. He is no longer wasting her time or robbing her of an opportunity to find a life partner – by staying, she is wasting her own time because she knows what he is (at the very least, she knows he is a lying, cheating bastard) and that he has chosen his wife; she knows, as we all do, that if he cared about her at all, he would not engage with her in this manner. He treats her abominably. He does not care about her feelings, and all of his actions are consistent with that. With all of this knowledge, the fact that she continues to engage with him means on some level she has accepted his way of treating her because he is not going to change. It hurts, it truly does. Now many of us, myself included, have been there, and I understand on many levels what she is going through, and there are days I continue to struggle with thoughts of my narc and the debate about words vs actions. But it is Gab’s life – how she chooses to live it is her choice. I think she mentioned that she was getting therapy, which is fantastic! It is time she focused on herself and discovered the wounds that force her to repeat these situations with the hopes of getting a different ending. Until she can heal her own inner child, she has little hope in finding a life partner or having a healthy relationship with someone, and that is true for all of us. But let’s be honest- Piano Man is an asshole for targeting her and starting something with her, but he cannot be blamed for the fact that she continues to waste her time with him. GOSO, block, work on yourself. Heal. Move on – and if and when all of that is accomplished, then can we really say that any of these past few years were a waste of time? Of course it is all tremendously difficult, but we have witnessed many success stories here.

        I understand that comments can be easily misinterpreted, particularly if we are at different levels in our healing process, but it seems to me you could have made your point without including comments about NarcAffair’s personal life. It did come across to me as rather judgmental and smelled an awful like something my narc would say, which may be why I am particularly sensitive to it. I’m sure you understand as well as anyone who has been involved with a narc that intimate relationships with narcs wreak havoc on one’s psyche and they can hardly be minimized as a ‘distraction on the side’. The fact that we read this blog religiously means that our narcs are/were more than a distraction in our lives. It doesn’t matter if the narc’s partner is married, single, or in a relationship.

        I do agree that time lost can never be gained. It is good to be reminded of that.

        Gabs, stay busy, interact with people who truly love and care about you. The busier I am, the more time I spend with those who love and care about me (and who I love and cherish), the less time I spend thinking about the narc!

      3. Hi annie…ty for your reply. I can see how insatiable learner might look at it that way and i dont blame her. Years ago i wouldve looked at myself not knowing what my situation was and think the same thing. Ill never makes excuses for my choices bc they are wrong but i can only offer understanding. Im not the type that ever wanted to seek someone outside my marriage but after years of being lonely and void of intimacy i did and believe me i tried to fix the problems. That being said i never left my hubby bc i love and care about him. Ive learned thru my life experiences that you dont know until youve lived another’s life.
        My only two i was involved with were single.
        I agree it isnt just the narcs fault and jve had many angry at me for saying that bc they thjnk it implies they deserved it which isnt the case. Its so important to look at yourself too and learn why you were attracted to the narcissist and what they were giving you that you couldnt get from yourself.

      4. Married not married makes absolutely no difference. I assure you the pain is equally deep and even if you are married these people become the center of your world. That is their sole purpose is to become the center of your world. Suggesting that someone single may have it worse I don’t think is fair. These people’s soul purpose is to destroy you emotionallt. Being married or single isn’t relevant to the equation

      5. THese people target you for one thing and one thing only supply. Married single it makes no difference. Blaming yourself if you’re married will do no good. They targeted you. They knew your emotional make up and exactly what your weaknesses are. You were manipulated and targeted. Period nothing more nothing less

    2. Insatiable,

      “I think many of us struggle or struggled with “what if this is personal and I am the only one he treats this way.” This is what we, unhealed empaths, do. Blaming ourselves and wondering what is missing in us and how we can do better to be treated better”

      Nailed it!!! I am forever trying. Oh to be a fly on the wall for just 5 minutes.

      1. Hey Gabbs. I hear you. I really understand your struggle with this. I have been there and even now I sometimes find myself wondering. But I remember how the narc talked about his now ex-wife (he has a new IPPS), smearing her, projecting his crap onto her, etc., and I know it is not me, it is him. His words and actions hardly ever matched. This is one of the biggest hallmarks of this disorder. Watch your narc’s actions and compare them with his words with respect to anyone be it his wife, you, etc. Do they match most of the time? From what I have seen you write, no, they do not. There you have it. He is disordered. There is no doubt about it. Quit this piece of crap now, Gabby. I guarantee you will only get hurt worse. Stop your pain. You deserve so much better than that. You only have one life. Do not waste it on this non-man. Good men are still out there. One is waiting for you now. Give that man a chance. Wishing you the best!

      2. Hi (((gabs))) … you deserve to be treated better and its his npd why he treats you this way. He sees he can get away with it and keeps doing it.
        My narc does the same but i no longer get upset when he shelves me. I cant bc it was affecting my happiness and health. Until i leave for good or change the dynamics of our relationship im compartmentalizing the shelving bc i cant do the rollercoaster anymore.

      3. Narc Affair,

        “compartmentalizing the shelving”

        I hate that word. No not the word “Shelving” (which I do also hate)….but rather the word “compartmentalize”. My narc used it to describe himself and his behavior all the time.

        Sorry to go off on another tangent but as soon as I heard that C word I was reminded how our conversation went on the phone the evening he invited me to his show.

        Me: (after he extended the invite): “But I thought you never wanted to see me again”

        Him: (playfully laughing) “Well yeah but only because I do not have the willpower to resist having sex with you. I know if I see you I will start and I won’t be able to stop. But…I was finally able to successfully compartmentalize my guilt over having sex with you last time….”

        (I had to to hear about his “guilt” over and over again, then all of a sudden he has “successfully compartmentalized” it.) OMG wow good for him! (Sarcastic eye roll)

        Wow such successful compartmentalization and wow just in time for extending the invite to his show.

        (Another EYE ROLL)

        What was that HG used to say? They just press pause and then come back and resume?

        Successful guilt compartmenalization. Seriously that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Have you by any chance heard anything stupider to top that?

        Anyway forgive that tangent but good for you for successfully compartmentalizing the shelving. I just teeter between anger, depression and the occasional itch to tip off his wife about all he has done with me.

        1. Yeah … I just heard the song “ I want you to wait for me” … “ I don’t want you to forget me “ “ I am really bad now / meaning I have many IPSS… he just left a few hours ago -and I feel empty – I was good before seeing him. It’s like a half shelve – now. … I guess I just need to talk to people who understand me. I have escaped and came back – now he is telling me I never left – i was just a bit tired of him. Why did I came back ?????? I have a reason – my emotional thinking gave me a reason to come back and I will see through it .

          Frankly I was well in my escape – better than now.

          That is all I know – Narc Paradise. When my father was away on business trip – life in our house ceased – we were waiting the return of the great and life could start again. He had gifts for me – if I had been a good girl. Which meant taking care of my siblings and my mom who was sick.

          Then I went from lesser to mid to upper mid and now I have a great.
          And it is only now that I understand it all – that I put the pieces together.

          My father hasn’t been very ill and we almost lost him. When I was alone in the hospital and I had washed his ass – literally- he looked at me with those eyes .. I said to myself “ I really see now that he loves me … I really feel the love “ I was never devaluated but did I ever worked hard to please him and be the perfect daughter”

          Narcs that is all know.

        2. Hi gabs,

          “Him: (playfully laughing) “Well yeah but only because I do not have the willpower to resist having sex with you. I know if I see you I will start and I won’t be able to stop. But…I was finally able to successfully compartmentalize my guilt over having sex with you last time….”

          Translation: (playfully laughing) well yeah but only because i do not have the willpower to resist the highly emotionally charged fuel frm u during sex – the way u look at me w such longing. It makes me feel powerful. It arouses me more than the sex act itself. The way u grab me and kiss me while i am talking. This makes me feel like you are my puppet. I am laughing at u on the inside. You see, my wife’s emotions just do not do it for me anymore. They have become stale. The local dls’s emotions still do it for me, but i am kind of getting used to her emotions too. You, on the other hand, i rarely see, it is intermittent, so your emotions during sex make me feel like a god. My depression completely disappears for a day! Don’t get me wrong, it is not you i crave. It could be any long distance dls. I do not love you, because i cannot love. Nor do i care about u. I just tell you that to keep you hanging on. Notice I once told you that you are only a fling? That is contadictory I know. It is because I had acquired a new dls! She was shiny and new! I loved her (rather her fuel) and that is when I realized you were only a fling. I only care about alleviating this depression you know. It makes me feel lonely and withdraw. I hate feeling that way. Btw, after having sex with you, i will feel that i have lost control over my body. I abhor intimacy you see. So don’t freak out if i stop talking to you for days or weeks afterwards. I will answer your texts from time to time to keep you hanging on, because i cannot lose you. You alleviate my loneliness when i need you to, and for that, you must remain in place. But please, try to understand that i have the local dls to attend to. So i do not have time for your antics. Do not disturb me after we have sex because I will be busy with her. I will also be busy cultivating more dls via facebook as I once did with you, because my local dls is getting boring since I see her so often. I pretend to have guilt but I do not really. Sometimes, a small shred of guilt surfaces when I look at my wife and I know that I have been lying to her, but it is fleeting. It lasts for 1 second and then it goes away. It all depends on my present environment. When I am not with her, there is no guilt at all. None. I hope you come to my performance. I will love all the fuel. And leave promptly after we have sex. I will have other women to tend to. I do not love you. I do not care about you. And I will be most distant right after sex, for days, weeks, months. I have to cultivate more dls. Don’t disturb me or ruin it for me. Remember when I said we needed a break for months? That is when i had acquired a new appliance and i did not have the energy to deal with you! This facade management takes alot of energy you know! I will give you crumbs if you disturb me so that you keep holding on, but really i hate maintaining you. It is a chore for me. Why can’t you just get it that I decide when I need to engage with you? Understand? That is power!”

      4. … continued

        Notice these lines sound like hg’s articles?

        That is because these lines are from hg’s articles!

        I have reworded them since I don’t remember word for word. By having consults with hg, and him applying his knowledge to my specific situation, I am now able to take that knowledge (his lines) and extrapolate it to other situations (combine lines frm different articles). I am able to do it in my own situation more easily now. And I am trying to do it in your situation too. Only one of the lines is my own lol. Once you know what they really mean, leaving or staying away becomes much easier because what they really mean is quite despicable. There sould be a course – ‘translate narc speak’, just like a foreign language.

      5. On my journey
        I don’t know if you will get this comment, but is your dad a narcissist? And was you mother physically or mentally ill. Please, do not feel compelled to answer if you are uncomfortable with my questions.

        1. K… yes my father a Narcissit and my mother a co-dependent . She was also physically ill with Chohn disease and chronic anorexia.

          1. Thank you for answering, On my journey. When I read comments, I am always curious to know what the dynamic is/was between the parents and the child(ren). Boy, you really had your hands full with your mom. It is a lot of work for a child to care for a parent and siblings. And don’t beat yourself up too much about the emotional thinking, I struggled (and still do) with it, as well, and narcs are all I know, too.

          2. Hello On my journey,
            I RSVPed but my comment is in moderation, however, I will repost it if doesn’t come out of moderation by tomorrow.

      6. Jenna,

        “the way u look at me w such longing. It makes me feel powerful. It arouses me more than the sex act itself. The way u grab me and kiss me while i am talking.”

        Yeah pretty much. I lost count of the number of times I interrupted him by grabbing him and kissing him while he would be talking. He would put one hand on my cheek and look into my eyes before kissing me and I would be done. DONE, right there. Trembling. Insanely wet. In (happy) TEARS.

        You are right in the fact I was a puppet. A puppet that oozed with fuel. Of course that landed me on his piano recital invite list.

      7. Jenna!

        “Him: (playfully laughing)…………
        … continued

        Notice these lines sound like hg’s articles? ………….

        WOW! I bet you Gabs could hear those words in piano guys voice!
        I would give these posts !000 likes if I could.

        Gabs,Gabbonzobean, Supertanker of Fuel, All Out of Fuel,

        You say you are planning revenge when you show up at his recital?
        Are you completely ready for this, per HGs book? You have taken every contingency, that it CANNOT backfire on you? (Remember, he has his family and church facade, and just who are you….?)
        You are sure you will not buckle under his narcissitic stare?

        You are a strong and capable woman. You have been doing it all yourself. To continue to be a strong woman, you must know it is time to get help.

        It is not a sign of weakness to ask for and accept help. It is using the resources that are available to you. You wouldn’t use a screwdriver to hammer nails, cause that’s all you had. You would get a hammer.

        (No, I don’t mean help with your planned revenge. Take a page from the N and enjoy some thought fuel. Don’t show up, don’t let him know you’re not coming.)

        Tell us now, and tell us true. Will you take that consult now? Will you get therapy for Your wounds? Will you go to a friend for support and sheilding? Not when, but NOW!

        It seems like a long and hard journey, but take that first step. You will be on your way, and take another, and another, one at a time.

        You’ve never heard of disappoint or hurt happening when someone has a consult. You may have heard about therapist who don’t get it, but there will be some who do get it. And please don’t tell me you’ve shut all your friends out, in favor of piano guy. If you haven’t told them, pick your most supportive friend and tell them. Show them this site, if they don’t already get it.

        If you are short of cash, and it’s allowed, I will pay for your consult.

        If you want, you and I can make a pact to each consult HG by a certain date, to make each other accountable.

        Where will you be next year if you do nothing?

        Will you pinky promise with me?

        damn it I at least feel your pain, and I bet I’m not the only one.

        Do it for your children. A happy undistracted mother, gives the best care. (You may think unfair on this part, but really, ain’t nobody happy if Momma ain’t happy)

        What do you think?
        Please answer. Yes. No or F*ck Off.


        1. Firstly, I will never tell anyone to F off.

          Secondly, I haven’t said yes to the show; I haven’t said no to the show.

          I have several planned ideas of what I hope will happen. But I also know what he wants to happen and that there is a strong chance that those things will also happen.

          Aside from my posts here, my best friend is the only person in real life who knows about him. I asked her to accompany me to the show and she said “no way”. However she did offer to mail any compelling evidence that I felt like sending to his wife. But she doesn’t want to be face to face with him.

          Bottom line is I’m saying I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m going yet.

          1. I interpreted some of the questions (mainly toward the end) to be metaphorical but since you are seeking answers I went back to her post to reply to some of the things that were asked.

            “Notice these lines sound like hg’s articles? ………….”

            -Much of the deciphering, yes I have noticed some things I have read before and a few other new things Jenna was kind enough to toss in there.

            “You say you are planning revenge when you show up at his recital?”

            -It has been an idea that has crossed my mind, yes. I am still undecided about showing up and how I want to proceed in enacting revenge if I go.

            “Are you completely ready for this, per HGs book? You have taken every contingency, that it CANNOT backfire on you? (Remember, he has his family and church facade, and just who are you….?)”

            -No I have not taken every contingency. All I have are thoughts and ideas of revenge, no definite plans yet. I have not read HG’s book on revenge yet.

            “You are sure you will not buckle under his narcissitic stare?”

            -This is where I struggle. Do you mean a nasty stare or a seductive stare? I have never gotten the former, only the latter. A nasty stare would not make me buckle but a seductive stare will be my downfall (at least it was last time I saw him)

            “Will you take that consult now? Will you get therapy for Your wounds? Will you go to a friend for support and sheilding?”

            -I have had a few email consults with HG already. I was seeing a therapist but I took a break for financial reasons. My best friend knows of the piano man story and endures it/is there for me as best as she can be.

            “And please don’t tell me you’ve shut all your friends out, in favor of piano guy.”

            -I have not but I do not have many close friends to begin with so I feel that statement does not really apply. My best friend knows about him. I have not shut her out.

            “If you haven’t told them, pick your most supportive friend and tell them. Show them this site, if they don’t already get it.”

            -see comments above already made about best friend

          2. I shall be direct.

            1. Will you take that consult now? (It was not have you had any consultations).
            2. Will you get therapy for your wounds? (It was not have you had any therapy). You may have answered this indirectly by saying “no, I cannot afford to do so now.”
            3. You confirm you recognise some of the lines are similar to those I have written about. It is good you recognise that but that is not enough. What are you going to do given you have had additional confirmation that this man is a narcissist?
            4. What does your friend think of the narcissist?

          3. 1. “Will you take that consult now?”

            Email consult, I am unsure. I have been considering another email consultation but have not worked out my questions yet. I considered a “deciphering messages consultation” again but Jenna was polite enough to take that one on her own.
            As far as an audio consult goes, no I will not take one of those. While I appreciate your perspective and the info on your blog and I am sure it will be helpful the idea of speaking to you on the phone intimidates me. I do not mean that in any sort of “wounding” way. I am just stating how I feel about doing so. I know a few other readers have said that they are worried about your voice turning them on and getting distracted. Well, my fear is feeling anxious and intimidated.

            2. “Will you get therapy for your wounds?”

            Okay so I did indirectly answer it. I was receiving therapy already but I took a break due from it to the cost. So yes I WAS, but not anymore at current.

            3. “What are you going to do given you have had additional confirmation that this man is a narcissist?”

            I do not know how to answer this question because I do not know what I am going to do. Despite the additional confirmations I still feel like I need more proof. I have commented a few times about this over the last few days and the only comments that I found even remotely helpful to me (I mean no disrespect to others by that statement) was the advice Sarabella gave me. I want to witness his awfulness in action whether it be to me or others. I have only witnessed awfulness via text. I am sure this sounds ridiculous to you and possibly others but it is one of the many reasons I am considering going to the show. (revenge being one of the other reasons)

            4. “What does your friend think of the narcissist?”

            While she lives geographically closer to him than I do, she does not know him other than what I have shared and she has never met him before. She thinks negatively of him and she repeatedly refers to him as a sex addict and says he is only using me. She will not go to his show. She also was not “invited” to his show anyway (although she could still buy a ticket) and if she showed up with me to the show he would definitely get mad (he is very paranoid and a huge fear of his is worrying my friend will destroy him even though she has repeatedly told me she wishes to stay out of things, he was told this but still is paranoid). This was partly why I invited her.

            Addendum: I also wanted to say it is very weird that YOU are asking ME questions. Usually I (well all of us here really) ask the questions of you. Is this the Narc twilight zone or some something? (that was merely a lame attempt at a joke, Sir Tudor)

            I hope that my answers are now concise enough. But if not I am sure I will hear about it!

          4. I changed my mind. It’s not OK, because you need to just go NC. You’re still thinking emotionally. Whatever you have planned, if it is not passing on the show, and blocking him, is going to be a trainwreck. Keep whatever you might have to go to his wife for now. If you send it, you will be smeared. I think your friend won’t go with you, she doesn’t want you to go either. Is that right? If so, take your friends help, and do another thing. Consult? Therapy?
            C’mon now, before you do something that will get you hurt, one way or another.
            If you met him because of church, and you are religious, go to a different church when he has his concert.
            Don’t expose yourself to him, and if you are planning revenge or exposure, you are NOT READY.
            Not Ready, really not ready.
            Not able to resist, block. Can you change your phone number? Change your email or send him to spam dump in email rules. too tired to think anymore, and I still know you just should not.

          5. Gabbanzobean,

            Regarding going to his show and exposing him to his wife –
            What are your motives? To end his marriage in the hope that this will bring him to the relationship with you? ( It will not). To punish him for not choosing you? To wipe the smile of his wife’s face you see on her Facebook and give her something to obsess over? Will causing her upset and misery makes you feel better?
            Is this right to target his wife for your desperate act of vengeance?
            Some people may say ‘ she deserves to know ‘. Maybe she does but she may find out from people who care about her and will deliver this devastating truth about her husband in a compassionate way.
            You will go to his show as you did the last time. To see him again, to talk to him again , to have sex with him one more time… To get a quick fix for you addiction. It may bring you a temporary relief and then it will mess up with your head for another several months as you will continue obsessing over him and his wife, overthinking and analysing under a microscope everything he did and said . He’s got a total control over you and at this point he even don’t need to do much as you doing this to yourself, feeding you addiction and turning into a bunny boiler.
            It’s your life and your decision but as you’re drowning in your EF please carefully reconsider those moves and the consequences.
            As others mentioned you have to get help to detach.

          6. “Some people may say ‘ she deserves to know ‘. Maybe she does but she may find out from people who care about her and will deliver this devastating truth about her husband in a compassionate way.”

            She does deserve to know. And the last time he was caught and exposed there was no compassionate delivery. He was caught in public the last time. The intent is to punish him not her. Unfortunately there is no way to punish him without her being in the crossfire. Some people may say “Oh just go no contact and ignore him and that is all the punishment he needs”. I disagree. That will not punish him.

            He obviously invited me because of his selfish need for fuel whether it be his wanting to observe the strong feelings he knows I still have for him, to triangulate me with whomever else may be in attendance, to have his way with me physically, or whatever else. That much I already know.

            I am still undecided about my attendance.

          7. If you attend this event as we say in the hood your cosigning for him meaning your saying yeah its totally cool your cheating on your wife using me as a toy and so on but I’m still gonna play my part and show up where’s your anger ? Where is the part of you that says enough is enough I won’t engage any further in this demeaning role he assigned me too ?

          8. “where’s your anger ? Where is the part of you that says enough is enough I won’t engage any further in this demeaning role he assigned me too?”

            That part of me is currently lost in the feelings I still have for him. Hence my indecisiveness on my attendance. My anger and desire for vengeance waxes and wanes between my desire to run into his arms and have another hit of him like the addictive drug he is.

          9. Gah, I hit the send button too soon. I think the best way to summarize is that I want to kick him in the balls but I also want to F his brains out.

          10. No altruistic reasons behind it but pure vengeance and mistress malice as you only feel the need the tell his wife the truth when you’re shelved or you fear that you will no hear from him again.Please keep the texts/emails he was stupid enough to send you for yourself unless someone ask you for it.

      8. Hi gabs,

        I included statements he has said in the past on purpose, so that you can see why he said them, eg. I know i can be contradictory, you were shiny and new, i choose when to engage with you, i love you, i don’t love you, you’re only a fling, I’ll call you at the end of the week if you lay off (this sentence i did not include but a related sentiment was there). He leaves out the rest of his thoughts, which I have written.

        Now, after knowing this, what are you going to do?

        You know that he is a lying narc. I think he is not abusive to his wife. I think he is very kind to her. I strongly believe he has many other dls, and when you are shelved, it is because he is having sex with them. While you are waiting by the phone, he is having sex and holding another woman’s face and kissing her. He is a hypocrite. He sleeps around yet was bad mouthing his co-worker for doing so. He has a young daughter to which he should be a role model yet he’s too busy looking for new women. I think he is absolutely immoral. He is still finding prey online. Did you ask him more abt the profiles? I think you just put it aside, correct? There is a high risk of stds. If you go to the piano recital, he will have sex with you then shelve you for months. Are you ready for that?

        Pls gabriel, have more respect for yourself.

        I care about you. I want you to care about you too.

      9. P.S. Jenna sorry that I forgot to reply to your other question. No I did not bring up the sex site profiles again. The first and only time I brought it up things got really nasty. And he slinked off and gave me a silent treatment. I never mentioned it again. There were two profiles, he took the picture down off of one of them but the profile is still there. The second still has a picture.

      10. Jenna sorry I hit send too soon….that coworker of his who he kept mentioning…I am fairly certain that he was F-ing her too. Why else would he show me her Instagram page and comment on her huge boobs she was “just a friend”. To make matters more odd this particular coworker is very good friends with his sister in law! (His wife’s sister). At first I thought she was a “lieutenant” of his. I am willing to bet she was a IPSS (not DLS as they were coworkers and likely are in the same circle of friends).

        I’ve also noticed that as a whole he tends to have more female friends than male friends. With the exception of his best friend.

      11. Hi gabs,

        “The first and only time I brought it up things got really nasty. And he slinked off and gave me a silent treatment. I never mentioned it again.”

        You never brought it up again so that u do not get a slient treatment. Allow me to use a more extreme example. If he murders someone and u bring it up, he will give u a silent treatment. So, u will never bring it up again?

        So that you know i practice what i preach, i asked the mmrn i was entangled with maybe 30x abt the online profile over the course of 1.5 yrs. I also made an account and contacted him on one to see if he was being truthful when he said he doesn’t do it anymore. I needed to know that in order to remain friends with him. Two months ago, i asked him yet again about it because I guess I just could not get over the fact that he did it in the first place. It got me discarded. But at least I know i stood up for what I believe in. I’m think i am not blocked on other messengers or email but i do not wish to contact him. If he can make light of the online profiles, then i really do not think he is worth suffering anxiety attacks over.

        Stand up for what you believe in gabrielle!

      12. The reason she did not address your questions is because the questions are about her and not him. When one is in that codependent mindset, the thought of ‘focusing on one’s self’ is excruciating because what he thinks/feels/wants is all that matters.

        I hope I am not the only one to recognize how arrogant this guy is to invite his fling to his ‘show’. Fuck ‘his show’. Under NO circumstances should you attend. It will only end badly. Do NOT give him that audience. He just wants to show off so you can ooh and ah and pine over him.

        What an arrogant prick. ‘Piano Man’ needs to stick some piano wire up his pee hole.

      13. Hi gabs…i can guarantee he has many women. Hes married so from day one he was never yours or accountable to you in any way. My narc is single but im not so again we are not committed to each other. If he wants to be with other woman i cant control that or even have a right to demand him to stop.
        Youre relationship is an affair so he owes you nothing. I can understand how you feel bc ive felt that way too. Ive felt jealous and upset. Its not right how hes treating you but its an affair so you never belonged to each other from day one.
        Imo getting even is only going to hurt everyone involved and his wifes kids will also be hurt. Its your decision but if it were me id walk away and let his marriage do what itll do.

      14. Hi twilight…i agree with your post. Telling the wife will hurt more than him itll also hurt their children if they have any. The mothers upset will affect the children. Im sure she has her suspicions and will find out.
        Gabs if you want the wife to know you have to ask yourself why? Is it out of vengence or wanting her to know the truth. If its out of vengence imo thats wrong. If its wanting her to know the truth then dont go to the show and end the affair completely then contact her in a calm matter and tell her. Then youre coming from a place where youre no longer involved with him but you care that she knows.
        Personally id end it and not tell her. She will find out thru numerous other ways if she hasnt already.

        1. Narc Affair,
          It is out of vengeance towards HIM and also wanting her to know the truth. So both. Before he invited me to the show I have been going back and forth over getting revenge by informing her what has been going on. In order to make myself as untraceable as possible I was planning to send something to her at her work address since if I sent to the house he would just likely intercept it. He made a comment once to me about how he has logged into her social media and email before to “protect” her. He claimed he needed to block the one before me AND that her mother, as they both were contacting his wife after he was exposed. (His excuse for circumventing their messages was he did not want her to hurt anymore than she was already hurting from the exposure). (eye roll)

          So yes the revenge can be accomplished without going to his show. The fact that I was invited has just thrown a slight wrench into things. And yes I know if I ever decide to tip her off that as soon as I drop it that I will need to block all communication avenues due to blowback I will likely get as it will be obvious that it was my doing. (unless of course there are double and triple lives still going on in his web)

      15. But Gabrielle, with all respect, would telling hos wife about what you two have been up to make you feel better? I can understand you telling her if you were her friend, but you’re not, and they have children together. I’m not saying he hasn’t behaved horrible towards both you and his wife, but you continued the affair knowing he was married. Those were the terms? Most of all he has mistreated her then, and she deserves someone better, but are you the one to determine her future when there are children involved?

        Please think about it. One thing is for certain, you won’t win him back by telling his wife. You need to work on yourself instead of focusing on him. Your obsession is an addiction. Please get help!

        1. I do not determine her future by sharing what I know, she determines it. His former indiscretions were exposed once before and she stayed.

          Who knows. The decision for revenge comes and goes within my mind. It is high sometimes and other times it is minimal. I also wonder if the invite to his show is a distraction for those revenge thoughts. I have never threatened revenge to him but he does know I am jealous of his wife. I bet the show invite was to toss me some crumbs. They are mind readers after all. Meh.

      16. Gabrielle I read both your replies to my question I too am an addict I also understand because to this day if I look at pictures of him I get weak in the knees if I reread some of the sweet things he wrote to me especially while hoovering I want to drop my no contact and go running back but I did walk away Feb 2 its a month and sixteen days so far except he hoovered once on Valentine’s but I ignored it. I am in therapy and I highly recommend it I realize there are deep wounds in me that stem from being raised by a severely mentally Ill mother and alcoholic father but I did a lot of soul searching meditation and watching YouTube videos on the power of letting go I’m not there yet I’m still at risk but the addiction is lessening as time goes by I want to be a woman of integrity I want to know when I take my last breaths that I walked away with dignity from somebody that didn’t value me that didn’t see the real me that didn’t appreciate the fact that I brought my A game to our relationship that I was ready willing and able to be a loving devoted wife till death do us part this meant nothing to him he valued none of it but I had to learn and am learning I have to value myself even if nobody else does I need to reparent myself from ground zero I look at pictures of myself as a young girl and I make a vow to her that even though nobody loved you I’m gonna love you I’m gonna take care of you I’m going to make you proud I’m going to die with dignity knowing I walked away with my head held high which he never thought I would do and I’m going g to die with integrity knowing I did what was best for me which was to never allow anybody to abuse me again even if that somebody is somebody I love I know I sound like a sanctimonious know it all bitch on A high horse but I’m being honest this is literally the process I used and am using to stay no contact I think.if you dig deep go into therapy feel your pain meditate and really think hard you’ll come to understand its you or him if you don’t let him go there will be no you and there will never be a you with him in the picture its literally either or you chose him and lose you or you chose yourself and lose him

        1. Kim/ugotit,

          Yesss! I love this! Finally after four long yrs of narc i am putting myself first. I used to put him first.

          If i don’t look after myself, who will? I owe it to god (or if one doesn’t believe in god, then she owes it to the universe) to look after the body she has been given. With emotional abuse, your body gets affected too. I will first love myself then others, in that order. I hope i can stick to it!

          1. Jenna …. this is something I have done and that ai am very proof of. Lost 30 pounds- went to the gym- went into yoga retreats- meditation camps etc Peiple are telling me I am radiant etc …. funny enough my Narc is very happy with my new body ( the one I had all my life except the 2 years before meeting him) but the golden period when I was fatter and less in shape and was drinking heavily.

            But he does tell me all the time that he can’t get over how disciplined I have been in my transformation but … I am a bit too skinny now … just a bit … ahaha

            To feel good about ourselves is money in the bank and when you are with a Narc you need a hell of a lot of self credit … well with HG’s help and you guys comments … I withdraw a lot less money in my emotional bank account that I used to.

            Keep it up J!!!!

          2. Hi on my journey,

            Good for you! I am sure you look radiant!

            In my situation, i was normal weight for my height, but after silences i started losing weight. Now, i always need a belt or my jeans slide down. I am still at a lower than ideal weight, but it gives me a chance to eat more chocolates!

          3. I’m so proud of you Jenna good job and yes u can do it it just doesn’t come naturally to us we have to constantly retrain our brain and if you fall of the horse it doesn’t mean give up just get back up and try again I have no doubt you will succeed because you have the right attitude

          4. Kim,

            Thank you☺️

            I am proud of you too! I know you were not able to resist the first hoover, but now you do, and that is excellent!! Great job!!

      17. Challenge Fuel

        I think maybe you’re being kind of a dick.

        Knowing what you know, then rationalizing your emotional thinking , wanting to let his wife know he cheated yet again, like seriously. You got into it with a married dude.
        Who are YOU to suddenly be the morality police?

        Not only that , but you want revenge on a married guy you banged, because -GASP- he’s an asshole?
        Get real. Then get healed. Your karma score is already on the low side. Focus on your self and how narcissistic your own thinking is right now.

        I’m not judging you on being a mistress. Been there done that. (Unwittingly at first but I stayed in it.)
        Being a mistress isn’t what I’m pointing at, but being a mistress who got too caught up in it is ON YOU.

        Let this narc go, let his poor fckn wife live her life and realize things at the pace she wants to.
        Seriously get off your high horse and figure your shit out.

        And if you really want to hit him where it hurts later on down the road, read HG’s revenge book , and you can tear this narc up without rubbing his wife’s face in her husbands shitpile.

        1. I don’t expect people to agree with what I say in my posts nor do I expect sugarcoated responses but so far other responses were at least respectful.

          High horse? Morality police? Karma score? Yeah I can see your opinion with that.

          But telling me I’m thinking like a narc?! That is a beyond fucked up thing to post especially on a website such as this!

          1. Gabby

            “Focus on your self and how narcissistic your own thinking is right now.“ is what was said, you are being selfish right now. It is a narcissistic trait. Not saying you are a narcissist, because you are not.
            You want him, you know telling his wife will hurt her and the child/children, you want revenge, your still speaking with him knowing what you know. What does that sound like?
            You need to get ahold of your ET because it is running rampant and will lead you down a path of more pain and misery then you even know now.
            You need to focus on yourself, heal then think about this “revenge “.

            Revenge at this point will not happen and you be hurt even more then you are.

          2. Listen to Twilight, Gabs. She is absolutely right, your ET is taking over your logical thinking. Irrespective of whether you go to the concert, you should book a Skype consult with HG so you can get your emotional thinking under control.

          3. Gabs

            If you look objectively at what W wrote, she has made some valid points. Contradictory and hypocritical thinking, revenge, and being a DEMB (This strand is based on the narcissistic trait of selfishness) are all narc traits. Stop being so defensive (another narc trait) and you need to empathize with the others who are commenting because I can sense the collective frustration in their posts.

    3. He’s also robbing her of the opportunity to find HERSLEF, live as a happily free single woman, and have a committed relationship with her higher self.
      Not everything is about relationships, in fact, ppl who have narc fever would do well to take a long ass time , like years, just being good to themselves, being single, free, self loving.

    4. Amen… and she have kids which I am sure are beautiful soul’s and would love to have all her extra attention. It’s not okay, Narc Affair statements are contradictory to what she actually practices. I am not trying to judge but Gabs appears to be younger. Gab please use all the effort and love you have to build your self up and those that live you. All this worrying and reasoning will add years and take effect of your physical appearance.

      Love yourself and those that celebrate you. Hell, fake it until you make it. I can’t see how we are still having this conversation with you…unless this is your way of seeking attention. Either way…get some professional help.

      Peace and Wellness

  18. HG or anyone else, I. am an Ipss and I was blocked and disengaged from today. There is a new ipss. I pray this is the end. I really do. Are dis engagements long lasting ? Or am I going to wake up in the near future and see him? Is it possible he will just stay completely away ? What are the odds here ? I just want to be prepared either way

  19. Gabs/ Challenge Fuel, do you realize what you wrote: “I need to see him be an asshole to his wife or kid”? Do you really want to see that? It is disturbing.

    1. I have no doubt in my mind that witnessing such an event would be disturbing. It’s not that I really want to witness an event that causes hurt to anybody but I feel like I need to be “shocked” in a way of witnessing such.
      I often times feel like it is the only way I will ever wake up.

      1. Gabs, you are saying you need more proof. As HG keeps emphasizing, this is your emotional thinking speaking. In my case, I suspected the person I was involved with to be a narcissist, in my consult, HG said there was no doubt in his mind this guy was a narc. This guy’s wife believed he was a narc. Guess what? I am still struggling with accepting he is a narc. The problem is not lack of proof. It is our denial. As long as we are in denial, no amount of proof will ever suffice.

    2. Gabs,
      Have you been reading ANY of my or other n’s wife’s posts?

      YOU KNOW there is no “happily ever after” for the IPPS!

      Remember, I am The Queen Of Hell, I know of being the mate of Hades.
      Oh, he was SO MANY wonderful things, before he dragged me to his lair. It is dark, scary, and too smoky to see anything clearly.

      You have my sympathy for being stuck in this mindset.

      I’ve had a major meltdown this week.
      I called for help this morning. I start treatment tomorrow.
      Does that give you any clue?

      You know they all are operating from the same playbook.
      How would you feel towards the wife, if you knew she was doing everything she could to hold on to this man that she loves, but he is now triangulating her with you? Would you really want to be in her position?

      I don’t want to make you feel bad, but you have to abandon the fantasy that she is getting any kind of golden period, or better treatment, when he has other supply sources. Likely he is devaluing her, to get negative fuel, while he turns to you, or any other admirers, for positive fuel. Or in your current mindset, challenge fuel. All fuel is good fuel to the narcissist.

      Don’t lose sight of the fact that what he is doing to you is damaging you, and removing any hope of you getting into a healthy relationship with yourself or others as long as you are influenced by him.

      Hugs from me. Hug yourself, too, woman. You are better than ANY narc deserves.

      Please, now, GOSO. Before you are all used up!

      Perse, who is tired of being burned.

      1. Gabs,

        You have children? Sorry, I wasn’t paying close enough attention.
        Hug your children! Isn’t that a wonderful feeling? He can’t give you that feeling! And don’t you dare teach your children that someone treating you, or anyone, like that is OK.

        Think about giving your children good relationship advice, and live it as an example to them.

        Really, big family hug today. Feel it, and revel in it! He can never make you feel as good as that.

        If he even makes you feel good at all.

    3. It is incredibly commendable for all of the women on this site such as Clarece, Twilight, NarcAngel, narc affair, K, Perse and others who have the patience to explain kindly and respectfully to Gabs/Challange Fuel/Out of Fuel that what she is doing is a waste of time and wrong holding on to a married man.

      I agree with you all but this time Insatiable Learner is exactly correct that Gabs stating the following “I need to see him be an asshole to his wife or kid.” is DISfuckingTURBING! Red flag! Wouldn’t this classify as bordering on a dangerous wishful ‘need’?

      Gabs – have you seen a professional about your infatuation and obsession? Doesn’t that strike you as odd to wish he would mistreat his wife and child?

      A mental health professional ought to assess the seriousness of this lady’s matter in more detail and suggest treatment before it is too late!

      1. I realize comments here can be interpreted in many different ways. I feel you have misinterpreted my comment. If he really is an abusive Narc then he probably already mistreats his wife and child. My comment of wishing I could (or feeling like I “need” to) witness such is representative as a “to be a fly on the wall” mentality to validify (is that a word?) that it is happening. It does not mean I hope for it or want it to happen. I was stating it from my perspective as if I saw such behavior maybe it confirm that he is an abusive Narc.

        I do not wish for him (or anyone) to be mistreated. You may interpret my original comment any way you prefer but I just felt like clearing that up with my explanation. Not everyone is going to read a comment and interpret it in the same manner.

        1. Gabby

          Point blank Narcissist or not he is a Married Man and unavailable. You put yourself into this position knowing he was married. You chose to begin an affair.
          You decided to follow what your emotion dictate, you let these same emotions convenice you that you need more proof to let go and walk away.
          Every fact is in front of you, and still you disassociate from it and rationalize things from an emotional stand point. Until you face brutal truth and stop trying to sugar coat things you will always stay stuck in mud searching for the ever reclusive proof needed to convince yourself he is an abusive narc.
          Remember when you needed proof he was a narc? Now you need proof he is an abusive narc.

          You wear the same blinders put on horses, time to remove them. Time to face the pain and the hurt. If not you will never heal, you will never move forward. This is what you teach your children.

          The lies we tell ourselves are the most destructive ones we ever hear.

          I am not trying to hurt your feelings.

      2. Gabs, you don’t need to be a fly on the wall.

        I’ll tell you (remind you) what’s going on on the other side of the fence: the wife gets to be with him most of the time, has his ring on her finger, shares a bed with him, has more or less regular sex with him (and they do have sex, regardless of what he might have told you), kisses him goodnight, spends the weekend and the holidays with him, blah, blah. He plays with his kid.

        You are (have been?) a pleasant distraction. Nothing more.

        If you want to fool yourself into thinking that one fine day he will realise you are his soul mate and that you will be together forever, well go ahead.
        This type of illusions will only bring hurt, disappointment and a possible mental breakdown.

        You don’t see things clearly now but I am confident that, when shit hits the fan, you will get there.

        Clearly shit hasn’t hit the fan YET.
        I hope you get there soon, so you can finally purge the guy out of your system and go back to living your life.

        Take care and good luck.

      3. No problem. I sense you are suffering greatly in this entangled situation and the power lies with you to end it.

        Will you exercise your power or will you let it affect your life some more? When will you make your final decision to terminate this secret relationship?

      4. “Clearly shit hasn’t hit the fan YET.”

        This is one of the other (many) reasons I want to accept the invite he gave me and attend his show. For shit to hit the fan. To hit HIS fan. I would love nothing more than to go to the show and expose him to his wife, drop off some evidence for her in the mail, etc. copies of emails, texts, printouts of his online sex profiles, etc.

        I have no idea what I am going to do or if I am going to go. My decision keeps swaying and my reasons (all of them) keep swirling around in my head, revenge being one of them. The need for that is a feeling that comes and goes.

      5. I understand your need for revenge Gabrielle, but I don’t think it’s a good idea at all. You’re still immersed completely in your emotions for this Piano guy and nothing good will come out of you showing up at his show, contemplating telling his wife and so on. I understand that you may think it would somehow be a breaking point for you, the final straw perhaps finding out about other women, gathering proof of his abusive ways, but you already have proof and knowledge enough. Look into your heart and it’s there. You’re suffering badly from an infatuation and a complete obsession that’s taken over your entire life. He’s hurting you; you are in pain because of him and that’s all you need ever to know. A man who hurts a woman like he’s been hurting you does not deserve any doubts as to whether he treats other people the same way he treats you or not. He might, with all probability he does, but it should be of no concern to you. The fact that you’re hurting so badly is a clear signal to get out immediately and protect yourself from further harm.

        If you do go to his show you’ll only end up in even more pain and the “merry” go around will only continue. Please be strong and stay away from him instead. That’s your best option for revenge. No contact.

        1. Catherine,

          “…this Piano guy… ”
          omg lol!

          Not to make light of the situation, because we all care about gabrielle, but i believe he has been called piano man, piano guy, piano recital, church guy and more! And this show that he’s putting on has been called a show, a recital, a performance, a concert lololol!

          1. LOL Jenna!!! It was you who coined the nicknames. And all of your random combinations of these nicknames while “mocking his work” referring to it as a “recital” cracks me the hell up.

            His mom forced him into piano lessons at a very young age and he told me he hated it but eventually “learned to love it”. His daughter is now in the same boat with the lessons. I often wonder if this “carrying of the piano torch” is some narc benchmark/tradition of his mother’s (and now his). As in the parent forces the kid to do something then lives vicariously through them. Do you know what I mean?

            “Now don’t forget….if anyone asks us how we know each other, we are bible study partners!” 🙄

          2. Hi gabs,

            I called him ‘mr. piano recital at church’ originally, for easy reference, and then shortened it. The variations i am finding humorous though! Important: it is not a ‘nickname’ as that implies some affection, which i absolutely have none towards him. I detest him. It is just a name for easy reference, nothing more.

            Yes, pls read little acons series. One of his parents may have been narcs. Thus, they push in their kids skills they want for themselves and view the child’s accomplishments as their own.

        2. Catherine (and perse, twilight, bibi),

          I like your picture btw – pretty hair, pretty dress, and beautiful surroundings🌷

          Now lets’s join perse, twilight, and bibi about gluten free food talk and hg will just about not post this😄

          1. I can’t believe you just used the ‘f’ word towards my comment!😱
            Remember you recently saved my life frm suicidal ideation? Then again, compartmentalization, i get it!! 😀

      6. Jenna, thanks for your kind words. I went on a holiday, had a long walk on the beach and feel really refreshed.

        Ha ha.. the piano man starts to be a household name here; no offence though HG because I do know that you’re the true legend.

        When it comes to pizza I love it. I have no problem with gluten, but I did try being a vegetarian for awhile years back. It didn’t work out though, I like meat too much. And enough of food talk HG, I promise.

        1. Catherine,

          Yw. I would love a long walk on the beach too but that will have to wait until summer time!

      7. 1) I agree. Lovely picture Catherine.
        2) I thought of a horrible pun today that I must share.

        HUG = HG and U.

        Fuck THAT sky high. I do wonder why does HG hate food talk so much?

        3) Anyone else here keep reliving the Billy Joel song ‘Piano Man’?

        1. Because a little banter about it is fine but this is not a cooking or restaurant blog and I have enough to moderate without dealing with recipes for Co-Dependent Cookies or Doormat Doughnuts and reviews of the latest Hipster Cafe For Those Who Only Eat Flavoured Cardboard.

  20. Narc Affair… I like your attitude. Sometimes all this get us so tired that shelving or respite whatever break is good way to recharge and also take some healthy distance and continue to learn and focus on ourselves.

    1. Hi on my journey…ty ive been thru the shelving a few times now and am embarressed to admit that. Im teetering on the edge of wanting the relationship to be purely friendship. I think id be ok with that. Im not sure how hed take it tho. The shelving is a break from expectation.

      1. I also found the shelving to be a good time to come here, read , reflect and further our knowledge etc. I find that I interact with people differently since I come here, not only with Narc.

        I feel being here as a safe place gives us space for sanity check and measure our own progress.

        They don’t know but they dig their grave with shelving as the influence of others and this site etc can also ” infect” us.

        Not to mention we can find another narc… LOL :):(:(

      2. That’s exactly what tripped me up- thinking that we were going to run into each other, there’s no need to be bitter, it’s fun to grab a coffee, not even really friends, just pals, etc. He’ll act ok with it and then BAM! You’ll be back into a romantic entanglement. Sometimes you need to go through it a couple of times to get it. I’m 3rd No Contact- the third time’s the charm! The second time was from February-April, then April-mid-June casual interaction, mid-June a malign hoover. The next time I saw him I turned around and left but he saw me, and came up to me a week later asking why I had done that, incredibly good-natured about it. (One of the bits of evidence that he has NPD- instead of being offended, he realized he could still get a reaction from me.) Then in July, coffee, where he outright asked if we could start up again, being insistent but charming about it. I told him no, and foolishly told him that I didn’t want to be hurt, and that the new “interest” (she may not have been- she may have just been used to triangulate me, but who cares?) was just too ugly- letting him know I noticed what he was doing. Mistake after mistake after mistake. July-September, texting, coffee, then he tried to get me back , I held firm(ish), and thought “I got this!” Nope- in October, it was on again until he effected a corrective triangulation and that was it. It finally sunk in. The will to hurt hurts even more than what they do. Stay away from him. As they say, why would you want to be friends with someone who treats you so badly?

      3. Why do you want to give your friendship to someone who treats you like you’re so worthless , they can put you on a shelf for when they want you?

  21. I am still stuck somewhere between a corrective devaluation and being placed on the shelf.

    1. Hi gabs…come join me on my shelf lol im in the shelf mode presently and am not reacting which i can tell irritates him. Hes expecting me to get upset but after going thru this cycle many times ill ride it out and treat it as a respite. Im to the point where i sit back and see it for what it is and always will be…a cycle.

      1. Narc Affair,
        I often find myself on the shelf as I am long distance. I often wonder if I lived geographically closer if I would be off the shelf more often. I struggle with not seeing how he is like in day to day life. And I still continue to feel like his wife gets the happily ever after and that he only acts this way with me. I hate that I “need proof”….not just the here and there he does with me but real hard solid proof of how he treats others. Much like I used to stamp my foot and say “give me my hoover” I am now saying “give me more proof”. I need to see him be an asshole to his wife or kid. And unless I move to his town I feel like that will never happen. Am I making sense?

        1. Gab
          No. You are not making sense. There will never be enough proof for you. Even when you see him be an asshole you will tell yourself that he wont be that way with you. But he will. You need to get a grip and everyone here has tried to help you. He is not the only or last man on Earth and even if he were, he is not worth your obsession. You know who is? Your kids. They are growing up and you only get that once. Every minute you spend worrying and wondering and trying to make cotton candy from his lies you are stealing time from them. Give your children that attention instead or you may end up without them as well as him. No equation with him in it ends well.

        2. Yes, you are making sense. And please diregard all the people who might be making you feel that this need is irrelevant. Sometimes, there is a lack of sensitivity with people on where others are at. You may understand cognitivelty, but emotionally, it’s not caught up. And to hell with anyonewre who says “we tried to help you”. They are sounding like some of those other forums on narcissism.

          I also needed proof because what I didn’t understand is that just like I had my tolerance for being poorly treated, I didn’t get that other people also had their tolerance. They also had their needs, and broken parts. My narc is quite psycho. I had someone else confirm that exact word to describe him. My narc was once married and had 3 kids. Someone who knows them both was trying to gel me and said he made her life hell. So what that they are situ till “friends” He was hell as a husband and partner. Until I was told this, I would never have known based on what I saw on the outside.

          It helps to start a mantra in your head. He must be like this to her, he must be like this to her, she must not be so well, either. Over and over until you shift your emotional thought on it.

          Its powerful, vut one thing I learned from HG is that if all these things are being used to train victims, then I can use some of them to train myself. Start to giggle at it,… poor wife, her life must be hell… and chuckle to yourself. Even if its soon followed by heart and gut wrenching pangs of hurt and envy. Do it again, train your mind to do this, your emotions will follow eventually, a bit at a time. Then one day, you will go, well she may have gotten more, but who know, because who would ever want to be treated that way. And then remind yourself that many people here spent decades with these men. Decades they were the wife. And they never even understood the reason for the hell of their lives. His wife may be the women here one day.

          So write it down, write a realistic phrase and then repeat it anytime you are consumed by this need of proof. Train yourself, don’t be the trained by the situation.

          1. “He must be like this to her, he must be like this to her, she must not be so well, either.”

            I do this frequently!!

            “Even if its soon followed by heart and gut wrenching pangs of hurt and envy.”

            The hurt and envy I feel about her IS gut wrenching. Especially the ENVY.

            (A song lyric that comes to mind is Gnash and Olivia O’Brien “I Hate You, I Love You”….. “you want her, you need her, and I’ll never be her…”)

            You definitely understand. Thank you for your response. It makes me feel less ridiculous.

      2. Gabs, You have tons of proof. You know he is an asshole to his wife and kid – he cheats on them repeatedly. There is not a woman alive who thinks a cheating husband is a happily ever after. And when a daughter grows up in a house with a father who cheats on her mother repeatedly, she will always have a skewed view of what a healthy relationship is, and without therapy and knowledge she is set up to repeat the same doomed relationship pattern learned from her mother. So nothing in what you already know from HG and the readers who so generously share their stories on this blog should suggest to you that the family he is responsible for is living the high life with him.

      3. Hi gabs…the number one thing ive learned about narcissists is its a cycle and its repeated over and over again and not just with you but everyone to varying degrees.
        Do you want to know to make sure its not you personally? Its not personal. Its a personality disorder and youre part of the web of the matrix.
        I live in close proximity to my narc and see him daily but still get shelved in covert ways. Its to the point i dont care anymore and i find myself bothered by that which is crazy. I should be happy i dont care. I know its not me personally its my fuel and his void that no one can fill. They have to recycle their sources bc they get bored and that dilutes the fuel.
        I would bet my house and contents, vehicle on the fact he treats his wife wayyyy worse than you.

      4. Narc Affair,

        “I would bet my house and contents, vehicle on the fact he treats his wife wayyyy worse than you.”

        You see as much as I would not want her to have to deal with that that is still what I hope for. As my “proof”. It is not the main reason I am considering to accept the “invite” to his show but I think it is definitely one of the many reasons that swirl around in my head.

        Are you married to your narc? But he puts you on the shelf? Can you explain and elaborate more on that? How can that happen especially if you live together? Does he just…disappear?

      5. Narc Affair, just noticed that you said you lived in “close proximity”….my bad. Does that mean like….same town? I think I have you confused with the other “NA” screen name who lives with her narc and is married? I always seem to confuse you both.

      6. This is a random thing but why does Word Press keep changing my screen name? I think at this point it varies so much based on my work computer, personal computer and phone. It’s either Gabrielle, G-Bean, All out of Fuel or Challenge Fuel. Dammit why can’t it just stay on the last thing I change it to. Mehhhh….

      7. Interesting that you haven’t gone No Contact. I find then many of your posts to me (and here) quite hypocritical. I got out, but you are still quite engaged and yet you came down all over me? Lol Now I got your number. I always wondered why you are constantly here. I left for nearly a half a year but here you still are. You told me I don’t get it, I should hang around, but you do of course, understand it, and yet, you don’t get out and all this time , you have been actively engaged but coping an attitude? Well, I am sorry you still are actively engaged.

      1. Annie,
        It’s not like I do not realize that because I do. I just cannot put my finger on why I cannot see that with HIS family life. Maybe it is because I focus too much on his words? When he says things like… “our relationship is wrong, I love my wife and will never leave her. I would die without her. She is my best friend, lover and companion. I took her for granted and I was not the same for her for a long time and I am now going to finally do right by her blah blah blah”… Maybe I am believing THAT in which he says? And now that he has been rejecting me and silenting me and avoiding me (well minus the contradiction of inviting me to his show) the silence and rejection (or shelving if you want to call it that) is fucking with my head and making me think “well gee, maybe he is focusing on his wife and kid now”. But then I hear “no he is just out there with some new supply or DLS” or whatever. And not that I will ever expose that or witness it as I am too geographically far away to see that (if it is even going on). So the fact that I am ignored (shelved) makes me think that he is busy focusing on his wife. Then I just hear all his “words” of how he loves her so much and how she is the only one for him.

        I do not expect anyone to understand as I am repeatedly told I do not make sense so whatever. I am just explaining the thoughts in my head. I guess you could say I am jealous of her. I know that will nauseate some of you. I guess it goes back to the “fly on the wall” mentality, I do not know. But I struggle with feelings of jealousy towards her. And she is a stranger to me, I do not even know her. All I see is her social media and she looks happy to me.

        1. Oh, I think most victims of a Narc understand you. I hate my ex-narc, but I still think of him everyday. I can’t stop it, and what’s weird, is I would never in a million years want to see him again. They damage your thinking. That is why you don’t think you make sense. You make perfect sense to me. Try to break out to save yourself.

        2. In some way you need to retrain your brain to break off and force yourself to think about something else when his words enter your heard on replay.
          I have said this again and again. At this point, I don’t care if Piano Guy is a Narc or not. He is a lying cheater. And all of those words he did say about wanting to stay true to his wife and to not take her for granted again and oh, that he’s never going to leave her, his actions are actually true to that notion.
          He’s made his choice, Gabrielle. He doesn’t choose you. As brutal and hard as that is to hear. He got a taste of you. He got the peek behind the curtains. He’s not choosing to alter anything about his life to fit you in it. Except to manipulate you if you allow it for his own selfish reasons. That is your closure.
          Do you know what JN’s last hoover move was…to start texting me things like he actually did want to get my pregnant… He knows how much that would be mind fuckery back in the day. He is completely transparent. As hard as it is, over a 4-5 year period, if that was really his intent, he would have made it happen. He does exactly what he wants 24/7 to maintain control. As HG writes, I didn’t meet all the Prime Aim criteria for dear JN. And you don’t meet the criteria for Piano Guy. That’s really what it comes down to.

          1. Clarece

            Of more important note – he no longer meet yours. Thats your power.

          2. It sure has never felt that way for a second. I just don’t get the “power” angle. At all. Daily I am reminded of what JN and others rejected and dismissed me for. I’m just not fighting in my subconscious to constantly reply and fix once I’m aware. Wounds are still there. It’s just maintaining a peaceful existence. Nothing powerful about it. Even in consults with HG, discussing that concept, I struggle with that.

          3. But, I know the sentiment how you meant that NA, and I really appreciate it.

      2. Challenge Fuel, to back what Clarece said, let it sink in, as painful as it is, that he didn’t chose you.

        In my situation, that was the most horrific thing he could have done to me because I was 14 years old first when he didn’t chose me. Totally fell in love with him at such a young age, and it had felt mutual. And when he one day, refused to look at me and never, ever again acknowledged my existence, and to come back 30 years later and tell me he was sorry, only to REPEAT everything? He didn’t chose me. AGAIN. After I risked so many things in my life for him, he still told me I wasn’t his type, there was nothing between us after all of his manipulations to tell me that there was. He still rejected me as a lover.

        What he did was pure monstrosity. The pain was like nothing else I had been through since my family of origin blew up in a divorce. And due to his narcisism, not only did he pretend to fall in love, we became an item, dated, broke up, divorced and now will never speak again. And yet, we never dated, never were an item and never married to divorce. But it FELT like that was the level it all played out on and on the emotional lies he told me.

        And when I started to heal the huge gaping wounds my narc mother (understood finally from this male narc experience when I asked WHY?), I started to stop chasing her, hurting for the mother I never had, stopped really caring one bit for her life anymore. Because she had trained me to over care for her my entire life. And when I looked at the history of my family, I finally looked at it with all the honesty I could muster: My mother never chose me, never chose us, her own flesh and blood family. Because SHE was too busy cheating and trying to avoid all responsibility and accountability. She blew up her family and honestly, I don’t think she ever intended to. I think, though, my dad had finally had enough. So she then had to make it all work in her head as her new man was her only ticket to a livelihood. So she left. I sometimes think she never, ever loved her husband but made do though they sure faked the love. How she could love that angry alcoholic, I don’t know.

        If your guy ever leaves his wife due to an ‘accident’ of her finding out and kicks him out, and he comes to you, the harsh truth is he will likely not be doing so because he loves you that much but out of no other alternative. At the time, my mother was fooling around with 2 men, chose one over the other when my dad had had enough. I think she knew that the one had more supply options for her, money, a lifestyle she had learned to enjoy. If your narc has other supply, and he does leave, he may chose you as the better of the supply options, not because of you.

        So this comes down to he hadn’t chosen you. When I understood more about supply/fuel and how it works, I understood on some level that at some point, this great “ride” my narc was on was going to end. His ‘ride’ was a 52 year old man running around with 20 something kids, reliving part of his life which is what he told me when he said tried to shelve me because younger more fun options had come along. And as I have observed in life, 20 year olds get tired of the old people who don’t grow up. I knew that would soon be over, they would move on with their lives.

        And I was sort of right, and I knew he lost supply one time, set him up to engage with me again, worked out my broken heart as I needed to (didn’t care if it gave him fuel at that time), and then, I faced the truth. And I told him that though I had loved him, that I really would have done anything for him, he never filled up my life and heart. And that he had found the people he wanted in life and it was never me. He never wanted the sweet 14 year old who had loved him and would have been an adorbabl girlfriend to him, not the 50 year old who was taken back to her other broken heart after he pretended to be so sorry for what he had done to me.

        I told him, “You have found the people you want in life, and it was never wanted me.” And I accepted that because I finally was able to. Just like my mother never wanted me. And I really didn’t want to be ANYONE’S second option. I said it at a time when I hoped he was low on supply and rather than then stay around for him to lure me back (he was somewhat trying), I just told him my heart was broken, but I accepted his decsion to love all those other people (knowing it was fake with them, too but I let him believe that I thought it was real and they were real options for him- most were not and never were as it was alot of social media fakery).

        And now this is now how I keep moving on. I remind myself when I feel bad, but he never wanted me. He never would have moved mountains for me. He was never loyal to me as a friend, he would never be loyal as any sort of permanent partner. And at this point, given everything, if he somehow stated he wanted to chose me, it would not be out of genuine love or he would never, ever have done what he did to me. I would never have been happy, never feel loved, secure and everything I deserve because he treated me like I never did deserve any of that from him. Or from anyone in life. His game of one upmanship included him telling me that I am a victim and he is badass. Well, if you knew my life compared to his, its laughable now. Somehow, as the time I believed him. Guy lives with his sister and barely has a dime, to name just 2 things…. (all found out later on).

        I used his second rejection of me not as something to be hurt for anymore, jealous of who got him, but as something to remind me that I had that same rejection in my childhood. I had the rejection. I had the hot/cold. I had the lack of empathy and compassion. Why ever would I want to marry that? Leave my own family for him? Depsite what people say, once a cheater, always, isn’t always true. Technically, I cheated. But I was conned into it by the faked sentiment that he had looked for me my whole life. I was not cheating cause I am one, I was trying to heal a profoundly old hurt wound that I had no idea had festered my whole life. What would a 14 year old know about seduction, denigration, devaluation and discard? He was about 17 and already on that cycle. I internatlized the hurt, never knowing that at that time, he was already a narc and maligant at that. That awful human being created one of the worst ideas I had about relationships and love. And it stayed with me my whole life.

        Long essay to say, he didn’t chose you and at this point, you don’t want him to ever chose you. We get these tiny windows with people and thats it. The narc could have chosen me, (or conned me worse than he did, really is more like what it would have been), I could have blown up my whole life for him, only to find out too late that he was all a lie. So now, even though I still feel the hurt 14 year old, I am more glad than sad he never chose me. That I was always second best to him and never knew it even the second time around. That he could be a liar again, and I would never know it until too late. He could have pulled that off if he was a greater but he is somewhere in between. My narc could have been just like my mother was, chose something as it was the better of her options at the time, not because of real, true love. For me. And I had to pull back my projections on to him that just because it felt so real and right to me, that it never had to him. He was just saying that at the time…

        And if you think about it, even if your narc is saying he won’t ever leave his wife, he is actually not even chosing her. Not because of the once a cheater, always a cheater. But something in his heart was missing, too, even for her. And though they are hard to find, there are people who love and stay together for life. It is out there. Find the love in yourself enough to know that you deserve always to be someone’s FIRST. First Choice. Someone out there WILL move mountains for you. And I am geographically quite far from the narc but on his pressure, flew to see him. It still played out quite painfully as if he were right here in flesh and blood.

    2. Gabby

      You witness him being an asshole to his wife already.
      You have all the proof, yet want more.
      Your ET is conning you and you continue to rationalize things to fit what you want. You will never get what you believe you want, seriously the sex was/is worth this?

      The belief you have of yourself needs to change. Only you can increase your value.

      Is this the example you want to set for your children?

      1. Good words, Twilight. Gabby, you’re spinning in circles clinging to a guy who is not only an asshole but who does not want you. You are desperately clinging to this man’s validation who is married to someone else. It doesn’t matter how he treats his wife and kids, it’s how he treats you, which is like shit. He is lying and deceiving his wife. Love does not grow from lies and deceit. Not with you nor with her.

        Sometimes I wish we could swap brains and I could see this guy, or any one of us, and we would tell you he is not as smart, talented or good looking as you have made him out to be in your head. I know that with my narc experience, I thought he was one of the best looking men I’d ever seen. Then I had my gay male friend take a look and he rated him a 5/10. Funny how that is.

        The only one who is as wonderful as he claims is HG. (Psst. Do you like how I snuck that in there?) 😀

        1. “The only one who is as wonderful as he claims is HG. (Psst. Do you like how I snuck that in there?) 😀”

          Hahaha I see what you did there, you Teacher’s Pet, you!

  22. HG, what does it mean when an N sends you a LinkedIn request and then within an hour has deleted the request?

    This is an N who is still attempting to seduce me. I’m friendly with him and be answer his messages etc.

    He has been on my LinkedIn for years. When I became aware he was an N, I deleted my account and set it up again a few months later. He kept viewing my profile when I first set it back up.

    And when we would meet would make the occasional mention of other people who wrrr on LinkedIn. I reaponded to what he was saying but without mentioning the fact he is not on my LinkedIn.

    I had also previously blocked him from my work email because he had been texting, emailing, LinkedIn messaging and I only wanted him to have one channel t communication.

    Did he delete his request because he believes I will not accept ? And he has a fragile ego ? Or is he wanting me to ask him or send a request to him ?

    Thank you

    1. It is a hoover but he expected immediate acceptance. Your failure to do accept quickly has caused slight wounding. He has deleted it in an attempt to provoke you and also so he will deny that he issued it, should you raise the matter at a later juncture.

      1. Oh I love your answers HG.

        I wasn’t even trying to wound but im untroubled that it did.

        I’m pleased he deleted his request. I didn’t want to accept so he’s solved that one for me.

      2. Well, maybe this will please you! I recognised that you are very well informed on this subject from the first day I read your articles and discussed some of them with my mother a few months ago. She thinks you are very accurate in your analysis and descriptions.

      3. This ability of reading people’s minds and predicting their behaviour still amazes me. It scares me, but it amazes me at the same time.

        You would make an excellent criminal profiler. “We’re not getting anywhere here”, “I know…it makes no sense”. “No one mentally sane would do that, or would they?”, “I’m telling you, it’s time to call HG. We have no chance of solving this one without his help”. “Yes, bring me the Tudor-phone. Now”.

  23. H G Tudar ;

    I am so confused , emotionally hurt , & torn between staying & trying to let go of him .
    I’ve tried incredibly hard to make it work between him & I .
    Sometimes I’ve no idea where I stand .
    He professes to live me , swears that I am his everything, his while world & he can’t live without me ~
    But , then suspicious things occur involving him & other females .

    I don’t know what category Id fall under in the scheme of things .
    Would you PLEASE help me with clarification? ??

    Wish I could shrink you & carry you around with me in my pocket 💜👍

    1. Certainly, if you would organise a consultation I can give you the clarification and insight you require.

      1. HG Tudar ;

        Thank you for your swift reply .

        I am in much distress , therefore I can’t say Im thinking with any logic .

        How exactly would I go about arranging such a consultation with you , please ?

        Im at my witts end , & very much interested in said consultation .

        Much appreciated 👍💖

      2. A little late but, as much as I need one to organize what I’ve just read. I will pay for her immediately.

    2. Who cares what category. Get out if you can. Knowing how they used you does not make it go away. Run while you still can.

      1. Two years in , 24/7 ~

        Rings & vows have been exchanged .

        Im afraid its complicated , as Im sure you well know .

        Thank you for your sincere concern for me , & you words of advice .

        It means a lot to me .
        & I DO appreciate it .


        1. If he is indeed a Narc….it will not get better. If you can start making an escape plan. It can take multiple attempts. I repeat…it will get worse, not better. I hope you find your way and get there safely.

      2. Yes , he IS indeed a narcissist .

        He was clinically diagnosed by mental health professionals with ;
        ” SEVERE NPD ” .

        I was there to hear the diagnosis , among other clusters .
        I suspected something was wrong initially , but I assure you, I was absolutely devastated when I heard that diagnosis being read aloud by the psychiatrist .

    3. Get out get out get out! When I told my ex-husband I was leaving,he told me his “depression” was an illness and that I had vowed to stick with him in sickness and in health. I didn’t buy into that (no kids thank God!) but only realized the answer to that years later: if he had Ebola virus, no one would expect me to sit in a room with him and catch it. This kind of mental illness ( and yours is professionally diagnosed, no need even to trust your gut and tell yourself you know what you know,) is contagious- you won’t end up with NPD, but you will be sick. No contact may take a few test runs, but the sooner you start the better. Be aware that they say that abusers pick up right where they left off as far as the degree of abuse. If you leave and get back with him, you may have a golden period, but when the abuse starts again, it will be probably as severe as the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back, except that will just be a warm-up.

    4. Monet, be sure to delete this site from your browsing history, on your home computer, your phone, tablet…Google sometimes syncs across devices, so check. He probably is spying on you any and every way he can.

      1. MH ;

        Thank you for that 💓 ~ & yes you are 150 % correct .

        Upon coming on to the site today , I noticed that he had been here & ” liked ” the site/ group .

        Showed his picture bubble notating that he was here ~ probably cruised some of the posts .

        I will definitely do as you so kindly instructed .

        And thank you for looking out for me 💜

        Ever grateful & very much appreciated. 😜✌💜

        1. On the bright side, at least you got a diagnosis, and can attribute his nasty ass behavior to something tangible.

          Now you know, you got to go.

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