The IPSS : Shelved or Disengaged


The Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“IPSS”). Who is this?

Briefly, these are ways in which the IPSS will manifest.

  1. Someone the narcissist is dating where intimacy has occurred.
  2. The narcissist is in a relationship (married, living with somebody, partners) but has a victim on the side as a mistress.
  3. As per 2, but where the victim is a side piece, a booty call, an occasional shag.
  4. As per 2, but where the victim and the narcissist know one another through repeated and extensive online interaction which has become intimate in nature.
  5. As per 2, but with someone the narcissist may see for a weekend or a few days and then does not see the victim for several weeks or longer. There is intimacy in the relationship.
  6. The narcissist is not in a relationship (married, living with somebody, partners) but the victim corresponds with 3,4 or 5 above.

Essentially, if you are intimate with the narcissist (from kissing, mutual masturbation over Skype, through to full sexual intercourse), you are not the primary source and you are seen by the narcissist more than once, you will be an IPSS.

As I have explained elsewhere, the IPSS manifests is three key ways so far as we are concerned.

  1. You have been selected with the intention of becoming our IPPS. You have an intense seduction (although this may not occur with a Lesser Narcissist) and therefore you are a Candidate IPSS. You may lose this position and not reach IPPS. You may not start as a Candidate IPSS but become one.
  2. You have been selected as a Shelf IPSS which means we do not (yet and may never) see you as becoming the IPPS, however, you are a valuable appliance and thus we pick you up and put you down. You may later become promoted to a Candidate IPSS.
  3. You have been selected as a Dirty Little Secret IPSS. We see you often but only for short periods and you are hidden from virtually everyone else in our lives. You may remain in this position or you may become a Shelf IPSS or Candidate IPSS.

In the first category we see a lot of you, maybe not every day, but the intensity of the seduction (save where Lesser) demonstrates you are on the fast track to becoming installed as our IPPS and enjoying the embedded golden period thereafter until the inevitable devaluation.

In the second category, assuming you remain in this role throughout, you will experience an elongated golden period but also periods when there is no or minimal contact. This is when you have been placed on the shelf. It is not devaluation. It is not disengagement.

In the third category, we see you often but you do not become enmeshed in our lives. Family, colleagues and friends do not know you or if they do, they do not know of you as someone who is engaged in an intimate relationship with us. You have an elongated golden period but you are kept hidden away, never receiving wider recognition. It is a relationship of hotel rooms, distant restaurants and short, furtive interactions.

Those who are IPSS regularly struggle with ascertaining whether they have been placed on the shelf or disengaged. Of course, once you realise that you are with a narcissist you should not actually be particularly concerned with whether you are on the shelf or you have been disengaged from (save to the extent this assists you in gauging the behaviour of the narcissist and what will happen next) but as we all know, your emotional thinking surges and you end up ruminating on this question ; have I been placed on the shelf or disengaged?

When you are an IPSS you have competition. Your competition comes from

  1. The IPPS (there is usually one);
  2. Other IPSSs (this is often the case, although not always the case) ; and
  3. Non-Intimate Secondary Sources (“NISSs”) friends, family and colleagues.

How does this competition manifest?

  1. With the IPPS they will be in devaluation and that is why we are engaging with you as an IPSS. The IPPS may be oblivious to your existence, may know of you but not know what is happening or may even be made aware that we are having an affair with you. The IPPS will be granted Respite Periods which because the IPPS has been painted white again will impact on how the narcissist engages with you.
  2. The other IPSS (or IPSSs if more than one) may outshine you which will then impact on how the narcissist regards you. They may cause problems for the narcissist which will then impact on how the narcissist interacts with you. They will be using the narcissist’s time and gaining his or her attention, which will again impact on you. They may be a Candidate IPSS which will then have a severe impact on your position as a Shelf IPSS. Conversely, if you become the Candidate IPSS this will elevate you above the other IPSSs and impact on them.
  3. Whilst these appliances are not competing with you in an intimate sense they will of course be advantageous to the narcissist and in certain instances their involvement with the narcissist will impact on you. If, for example  you are a DLS then where the narcissist is engaging with NISSs you will invariably suffer in that regard because you cannot be present when the friends and/or family are.

Thus this is The Competition.

There are of course other material factors, the Intrinsic Factors. These are :-

  1. Have you done something to wound the narcissist? Is the wounding minor or severe?
  2. Have you exposed the narcissist in some way?
  3. Have you rejected/ threatened the narcissist’s control and is this minor or major in nature?
  4. Have you “broken down” in some way?

So, how can you tell, as an IPSS whether you have been shelved or disengaged from?

The prevalence of The Competition factors results in you being placed on the shelf. You will not have suffered any devaluation. Thus, if we have granted a Respite Period to the IPPS we will not have any desire to see you as the IPSS. However, there is no need to disengage from you and instead you are placed on the shelf for an indeterminate time. Of course, since it is a Respite Period this may only last for a few days, possibly weeks and maybe even months. You will remain on the shelf during this Respite Period. Even when it ends, we may select a different IPSS to engage with and thus you remain on the shelf. Thus it may feel like a disengagement because you have not seen us in months but it is not disengagement.

You can tell if you are on the shelf because you will not have been blocked by us on social media or on the telephone. We may not answer your calls but you will receive a message from us at some point (not always straight away) which will be Crumbs of Conversational Comfort .

You will note from that article the timing and method of those crumbs and the ways in which they appear.

We are polite, civil, often enthusiastic and often future fake as we wish to keep you engaged but on the shelf.  We do not want to see you but we do not wish to lose you, thus this will be done to keep you ‘warm’ and ‘onside’

You are on the shelf when you are still able to communicate with us albeit at a reduced rate and our responses are benign. You can of course find ourself being disengaged from whilst on the shelf, but that is a different topic.

In terms of disengagement, this happens because of the presence of the Intrinsic Factors. If the nature of the Intrinsic Factor is minor then you will be given a Corrective Devaluation. Thus, you may be insulted and we storm off and do not answer your calls, giving you a silent treatment but note you are not blocked. Blocking would equate to disengagement and of course if we block you, how would we gain the fuel that arises from your repeated pleading text messages? You may receive an Absent Silent Treatment as part of this Corrective Devaluation but it will not last for an extensive period, a few days, maybe a week. You will be ignored but not blocked.

If you do not respond to this Corrective Devaluation in the desired way, you may received another (or the original will be extended) and possibly another – dependent on the nature of the narcissist. However, you are moving closer to receiving a Disengagement Devaluation and then disengagement if you do not yield and respond in the expected and desired manner.

When you are an IPSS and you have been disengaged from you will be able to recognise this because

  1. One or more of the Intrinsic Factors will be present;
  2. The relevant Intrinsic Factors will be major in nature or several minor Intrinsic Factors where you have failed to respond appropriately to the Corrective Devaluations;
  3. You may actually be told that the relationship is over, that we do not want to see you ever again (although such words are not always used);
  4. You will be blocked, deleted, unfriended etc;
  5. If you manage to somehow engage with us we will ignore you or respond in a malign fashion;
  6. You will be smeared (which you may learn about but not necessarily).
  7. There are no Conversational Crumbs of Comfort

Accordingly, you need to ascertain whether you are an IPSS and then based on the above work out whether you are on the shelf or you have been disengaged from. Your emotional thinking will be looking to cloud the issue and if you require certainty then consulting with me will remove any doubt as to the situation you are in.

Whether on the shelf or disengaged from, you of course remain at risk of a future hoover, since it is a hoover which either takes you from the shelf removing the suspension of the Formal Relationship with the narcissist or engages with you once again as the Formal Relationship is resurrected.


76 thoughts on “The IPSS : Shelved or Disengaged”

  1. I try to comprehend the magnitude of the damage that has been inficted on countless thousands of unknowing and unaware souls. We are completely unprepared, unaware, naive , and incapable of fending off the illusion and lie, we perceive to be our fantasy come true. Even now 4 years later having gone through everything she did to devalue, degrade, destroy, and brutalize me, I still am unable to break away, disengage, and separate myself from this insanity. it is my reality, and challenge to survive, overcome, and take my life back, while not giving up, and letting her win. Good luck and be strong.

    1. Steven
      NPD abuse reminds me of the song Hotel California.* ‘You can check out any time you like, But you can never leave!’

      It took me about a six months to realize the value of no contact and then I had to focus on replacing my emotional thinking with logic. I spent a lot of time here reading and eventually I was able to check out of Hotel California.

      The aftermath is devastating and brutal, please, keep reading because the (correct) answers will set you free. Good luck to you, too.

      * California is the Golden State.

      1. K
        Thank you for your words of wisdom and support. I especially like the reference to Hotel California. Those words always stuck with me, but I never thought they would mirror my life in such a significant way! I’m reading everyday, and working through the carnage of the last 4 years. “No Contact” is the only way I’m going to make it through this insanity that has consumed me. Glad to hear you made it through and were able to “Check Out”!!
        Kind Regards,

  2. Stephanie,

    I’m not gonna tell you what to do or even advise you. It is your life. Not anyone else’s!

    I understand you feeling attacked. And I felt very much the same over the last week or so. In fact I was triggerred a couple of times. They were all attacking me before too. (Or so I percieved!) I’m like the black sheep in here now lol!
    Kinda like vultures on fresh meat in here at times! (Everyone watching and scrutinizing your behaviour and words)
    I also watch and observe….
    I’m not here to make friends. I’ll stick to real life for that….

    And as for why I am here, is that anyone’s business?

    1. No you aren’t. Dismiss the noise. Your comments are as valid as anyone else’s or he wouldn’t have allowed them through.

    2. Michelle many people agree with you. They notice a difference in HG’s engagement, number of personal accounts, individual responses…etc. I’ve only been here for 15 months and your comment made me start reading the interactions from the beginning. We all should! Thank you for speaking up. I was missing some good stuff.

      Being new here, my perspective of HG, on the blog, is different from yours. Being what he is I’m impressed that he maintains the comments himself and as timely as he does. In my head, I see a room full of minions answering us while he does other things. Lol. You are not a black sheep here.

  3. Do disengaged ipss get hoovered? I would think it less likely if you are blocked everywhere because the ipss would have to enter the 6th sphere

    1. Yes and as ever it depend on whether there is a Hoover Trigger and whether the Hoover execution Criteria have been met.

  4. For me corrective devaluation, shelf, and disengagement is where the lines get blurred. How do you know if it’s disengagement or corrective devaluation? I was once what I now know as correctively devalued with a 2 month silent treatment. How do you know it’s corrective or disengagement? I think you said if any channel is left often that a narc is aware of then it is in fact corrective? In the end it shouldn’t really matter but for knowledge and comprehension have I interpreted your teachings correctly?

  5. When will you write about disengagement whilst on the shelf and how to recognise that? I have not contacted him and he has not contacted me, so how will I know?

    1. You do not need to know Stephanie, you obey the golden rule and get out and you stay out.

      1. Thank you, HG. I appreciate that, and you are quite right, of course. I just thought that, as you wrote that “that is a different topic”, you had more to say on the matter.

    2. Stephanie
      Did you ask that question because you honestly do not want the disengagement? I ask because I am always perplexed as to why some are waiting for the narc to decide, when they have the power to decide for themselves. I am trying to understand what the difference in your actions would be if the answer was yes you are or no you are not.

      1. Are you on this forum to understand how I think or to understand narcissists think?

        1. Stephanie
          I am genuinely interested in both. If you do not wish to share I understand.

        2. Hi Stephanie
          As truth seekers we have a need to know and understand. Until we do, we find it difficult to move forward. There is an overwhelming need to know in order to get closure. (Believe me, I know!). As you have probably read, you WILL NOT get closure from the N. Get it from HG. He will give you the answers you require so you will no longer be in situ/wondering/obsessing and stuck. Consult and there will be no doubt left in your mind. Now your heart…that’s another matter.

          Not speaking for NarcAngel, but I’ve seen her interactions enough to know that she absolutely did not ask you what she did for any reason other than to offer her support. She doesn’t expect an answer. It was to make you reflect upon your situation from a position of strength.

          Of course, she can speak for herself, but I respect her (and feel protective of her) and hope you won’t see her comments as an attack on you as that is not her intention.

          1. No it was not an attack on Stephanie as some of you have pointed out. It was an attempt to understand from the empaths point of view. I am here to learn and am interested in both sides. That was all that lead to my question. As always, the person has the right to decline a response. I didnt expect that one lol but its fine.

      2. Hi Narc Angel, Yes I can share a bit. The difference in my actions would be none – not with that man, anyway. I want to understand how the other narcs I am involved with and with whom I must work do this, and how I know when I am on the shelf or disengaged. My actions then, I would have to consider, hopefully with better understanding.

    3. Stephanie

      I have been thru all of this. Trust me, it is a blessing if they aren’t contacting you whether it be shelf or disengagement. It’s the only way to get off the crazy train. It may not feel like it but trust me, it really is. The best thing the Narc ever did for me was block me from Facebook. I no longer see anymore provocative or hurtful things. It really has been a blessing and has allowed me to have some peace from daily torment and slowly I’m returning to my pre Narc self

      1. It is the freakin crazy train and the longer you stay on the harder it is to get off.

        I too cannot tell if I’ve been sheved or disengaged and the longer NC the less I care but I agree there is a certain part of me that wants to know and when I have those feelings I simply ask myself does it matter ? No it does not.

        Was this a romantic relationship with someone you worked with?

        Don’t let comments here effect you. This is a great page for info and take from it what you need.

        There are a lot of people on here that have suffered different levels of abuse and are at different stages of recovery so keep that in mind when you see comments

      2. Stephanie

        I think you asked a fair and reasonable question. Hell I am not new to this and I still ask that question but hopefully in time you will begin to care less and less because in the end he’s gone and that’s a good thing. It takes time to get there though.

        I’m still interested in reading a piece on disengagement while on the shelf of you ever get around to it HG

      3. Lori, if you need clarity regarding your situation, I encourage you to have a consult with HG. You will be glad you did. HG is fantastic.

      4. Thanks IL. I don’t really think I need too much clarity. While I’d like to about all the little nuances of their behavior , I don’t need to know it. He’s a narcissist and I’m done with him period

        It was all a con that’s all anyone needs to know. Some fraudsters steal money other steak emotions

        I got conned plain and simple but I appreciate your suggestion 🙂 Thank You

    4. Stéphanie, I went for six months thinking I wasn’t contacting him and he wasn’t contacting me but the whole time he was anonymously creeping me online and leaving evidence of it. Once we were back in contact, he wanted to resume the Formal Relationship (in HG speak), I said no, he continued to contact me, I wounded him, we went for a few weeks not contacting each other. Then one morning I ‘felt’ his presence and yup, he had creeped me again. I then exploded at him for something else and the online creeping has now stopped – further proof that it was him. He has a fake FB that I have not blocked because he would just make another one. We are also on WhatsApp ‘not contacting’ each other. For all I know, he looks at my ‘last seen’ every day. No idea. The point I am making is that you cannot know whether you are ‘in contact’ or not.You should just assume that he is keeping track of you one way or another and, as HG says, take the opportunity to leave.

      1. Thanks, SMH. It is always interesting to me to learn about social media, of which I use very little, but seems that the narcissists make great use of. I don’t have twitter or any messaging apps, and the little I do have is very private, and only used sporadically by me anyway. I am interested because of the narcissists I work with – very complicated so I will not go into it here, but it is impossible not to be or have been an SS, and impossible to go no contact – a very complex situation to navigate, and I would like to apply my recent narc experience to that.

        1. I think of these as boundary issues. The narc has none and you don’t exist for him as an independent person anyway, so no ‘message’ is guaranteed to get through to him. What you can do is to mentally move on.

      2. I believe it’s fair to say that Yes people were being somewhat aggressive with Stephanie

        It I could definitely see why she might have felt that way but like I continue to say this is the Internet and things come across differently than they may have been intended or would have in person

      3. Can I ask how did you know he was creeping you? I have felt the same. What indicators were there ?

        1. Sure, Lori. He would go on LinkedIn anonymously. I would be notified that someone had viewed my profile (private – we are not connected) but not who. It started when I went no contact and happened every month like clockwork until we were in touch again (he liked regular schedules – once a week, once a month, whatever). The last time it happened I looked at his profile (public) and saw that he had ‘liked’ an article published the same day, confirming that it was him all along. He also once contacted me on a dating site weeks after I had left the relationship and he was allegedly ‘reconciling’ with the IPPS. (I told him he was psycho but two months later there I was, back with him!) I also found his fake FB by Googling his fake email not even from within FB. Took me right there. No pictures (whole family is on FB but he made a point of telling me he didn’t have FB because all of these women from his ‘past’ would try to friend him – red flag but at that point I didn’t even know he was married!). Name is the same initials he uses for all of his aliases and location fits. It’s all there. You just have to know what to look for. Creepers gonna creep!

          I haven’t looked at any of his stuff in months (all public) because 1) it is boring; 2) I got the information I needed; 3) I don’t care anymore.

      4. Update: suddenly he was gone from WhatsApp which did not surprise me because he just moved countries/numbers. I doubt he will add me back because we never used messaging or called. At first I found it distressing because it felt like one of his disappearing acts with no warning. But the same day, there was another online creeping that followed his usual m.o. (favorite site, favorite mode). While I found the WA thing distressing, I found the online creeping comforting because it felt more normal (WA was not normal for us). It seemed that he was sending me a message – I might not be ‘there’ anymore, but I am ‘here.’

        What the hell is wrong with me/us that we have always been in this rut — never moving forward or backward? Our relationship has stayed exactly the same for years. Sometimes we are in direct contact and sometimes not, but both of us seem comfortable with this non-semi-presence – he creeps, I feel comforted. But I have no desire to talk to or see him and he probably doesn’t want to talk to or see me either. HG, what is this ghost thing? Honestly. Call it ever presence but it happens a lot – once I became him looking at me looking at him. It is as real to me as if he were right next to me.

    5. Wow,wow Stéphanie,

      That is what I call a left jab followed by a low punch.
      The comment you received (from NarcAngel and will probably receive from others here who have been at the same spot you are now) was meant as a gentle nudge into the right direction and not as a criticism.

      I would really recommend you to listen to HG’s interview at the WNAAD forum where (among other things) he explains how the emotions you are filled with now are the biggest obstacle for letting understanding to “sink in” as he states it.

      Because it does not matter who tells you and how they tell you if you are not ready ( still thinking about him and wanting to know what and why he does) you are not giving place in your mind for understanding . It will be difficult then to first grasp and then apply what the main message they are conveying is: Go out and stay out.

      I understand that everyone has their own pace in their process.
      This is just a recommendation not a criticism.

      1. Could you all please stop attacking me. I just asked the question because HG wrote that it was another topic and he usually makes links, so I wanted to know if he had more to write on the matter.

        1. Stéphanie,

          Nobody is attacking you.
          You perceive it that way and it is understandable. You are not the first one that reacts like you do.
          You can punch and punch back as many times you need to but you will realise that you are punching into thin air because there is nothing to punch into :
          you have no enemies here although you might perceive it that way now.

          I wish you though luck on your journey of moving forward.

        2. If it’s any consolation, I probably asked a similar question myself (on the shelf and/or disengaged from?). I don’t remember getting attacked for it though. People come on here at different stages and without having read everything. That was me less than two months ago!! I went through plenty of confused periods too. By the time I found this site, I had already pretty much escaped (it was a four month process), but I was still curious.

      2. Stephanie

        Don’t take this stuff too personal. It is very easy for people to sit behind a key board and tell you what you should or shouldn’t do and you’ll find people give tons of advice that they themselves neither take or heed myself included. Just read the information and take from it what you need. You will block at some point when you’ve finally had enough. The reality of if all is if we are not blocking it’s because we are still holding on to hope of some kind and getting something from it regardless of what anyone says that’s the truth. Of course if you have children you can’t go complete no contact

        Just keep reading and understanding. You’ll get there when you get there.

    6. Stephanie

      It doesn’t matter what they are doing or not doing.
      What is it you want? Do you want to be free? Or tied to the thoughts and emotions?
      They can not give what they do not have to give.
      I have found the hardest thing is letting go, once you do things begin to change within you.
      It seems the longer we hold on to something the harder it is to let go.

      The truth is once we know, we go and it is the hardest step to take. I promise thou it gets better as you keep moving forward.

      I wish you well in which ever direction you chose to walk.

    7. Stephanie, to get the answer to your question, please go to the comments for the same article published in December and you will find it there. I posed the same question to HG and he encouraged me to work it out based on the article. I did and he confirmed. Hope it will be helpful.

  6. Very interesting!

    But still I am confused when it comes to recognizing if you are the IPPS or Candidate IPSS.

    What is the difference? I bet narcissist will call the Candidate his girlfriend and because he tries to seduce her and make her the IPPS he would give her gifts, sleep with her, tell her he loves her, invite her to parties to meet his friends and so on.

    So how to know if we already are the IPPS or still a Candidate?

    Best regards!

    1. If you wish to know with regards to your own circumstances LilAng then I would need more detail and a consultation is the appropriate way forward.

    2. HG am I correct in saying you will know by the level of contact ? The way I see it is if they are all over you in constant contact everyday literally talk to you all day via text phone or email you are likely Candidate right ?

  7. HG?
    When you meet a new potential victim – how do you test /know if that person does attachment in general? Is able to?
    And how do you test / know about attachment to you, if that person feels connected to you?
    How do you know about attachment style, relationship potential, etc.?

      1. Uhm … which part of Sitting Target says something about attachment abilities? How do you know if someone is able to form a attachment at all??

      2. I reread the relevant parts. So, it’s like: it is irrelevant which kind of personality someone is, as long as he shows the traits and signs??

        Ah, well, my current lover doesn’t show any of the mentioned empath traits … so, he is not, what I was looking for, regardless of what he is or is not. 🙁
        I do, of course ….

  8. This was the one for me.
    The light bulb, the knowing, the key to comprehension.
    I listened to this article on you tube, I think it was early December last year. I was in a very bad place in my mind, I was not in contact with him and avoiding baits.
    But he was on my mind all the time, and he had not yet disengaged from me.

    When you experience shelving before you actually know that this is what it is, it feels like devaluation, it feels like a silent treatment because your being ignored.
    In my mind a thought I was a toy he was picking up to play with and then putting down again when he was bored… this article helped me see that this thought process was actually more accurate then I imagined.

    Listening to this helped me to understand so much more about the situation, it helped me realise what I was to him, it helped me to understand when I was on the shelf in the timeline of our interactions. It was significant to me.

    I know I have mentioned this in conversations on the blog, but I would like to direct the next part of the comment to you HG.
    You are the only person that I have discovered, to advise upon the matrix of people to this vast extent.
    No one else was able to help me see what I was to him, no other source of information fit for me.
    For this i am incredibly thankful to you, for including everyone that could possibly have a role for the narcissist, and describing these roles to the extent that you do.

    In a bizarre way it helped me to feel substance to my situation with him, when before I felt lost in an unknown world, and I could not talk to anyone about it.
    So I thank you so very much for helping me understand HG. I’m not quite sure if I’m able to articulate in words the magnitude of meaning that this understanding has had for me, I fear I would do it an injustice.

    This was the article that lead me to narcsite and more answers, this was the article that truly opened my eyes to further learning regarding the perspective of the narcissist.

    This was the one for me .. I will never forget how this article saw me out of that very bad place in my own head, and lead me here.

      1. HG, if there was an area to post ‘fun’ stuff I’d post this there…

        I was listening to Depeche Mode on random this morning on my commute. I’ve seen you use song titles for your posts. I just wanted to rattle some off that popped in my head…

        Dreaming of Me (ever presence)
        Enjoy the Silence (respite)
        Leave in Silence (‘I can’t stand this emotional violence…’, escape)
        Get the Balance Right (‘always remain ultimately selfish…’)
        Everything Counts (‘confidence taken in by a suntan and a grin’, Golden period

        1. Enjoy the Silence could be a silent treatment too I suppose.

          I like how you have pulled the quotes from GTBR and EC.

    1. This was the ‘awakening’ for me too, especially the comments on the older posts of it. I knew NPD from being IPPS to ex husband years ago – bought the t-shirt – but this was next-level eye-opening. Thank you.

  9. HG
    Thats all well and fine but what I really want to know is;

    Do you hoover in a leap year?

    Serious now. That was so comprehensive yet easy to understand that it cleared up some questions even for me. I have one science experiment that I thought had finally disengaged but its apparent he thinks I still sit on the shelf for him when I am really just running around with the other toys in the closet. He recently hoovered with all of the talk of the golden period and when I did not respond he DEMANDED (via text) that I see him and gave me a place and time. When I responded to decline he was furious and said: Please tell me you are with someone (?). I replied that I had no interest in other men as he had ruined me for all others (Hahaha I kill me) and that the last time I saw him was a lovely way to end things (snort). He replied: “the end my balls. Im not finished with you yet. Is there a particular cheek you want kissed first?”. Cue silent treatment since. Fine by me. No one sits baby on the shelf lol.
    Your kind really are fascinating creatures.

    1. I hoover in accordance with the HT and HEC being met NA, as well you know!

      Thank you.

    2. You are my hero. When I grow up and out of my shelf hell I want to be just like you. 🙂

    3. How many experiments/toys do you have NA?!? You are a quite a fascinating creature yourself!

      1. I dont block any of them. I am not emotionally attached so I am not affected in the same way most are. Anyone that is must block and go no contact. I find them fascinating, and even more so now that I can confirm and predict their behaviours from what I have learned here. I respond to hoovers and interact much less now because of that. I can be friendly with them because if they act up I can take them or leave them. You cannot do this if you are romantically or emotionally involved and that is why I am reluctant to discuss my involvement much. It is contrary to what you are expertly being advised by HG. GOSO.

        1. NarcAngel
          Ha, ha! When I typed NarcAngel it autocorrected to Bar Angel.

          You and I are alike on never going no contact. And I have much more enjoyed observing all the narcs in my environment since I’ve learned so much more about how they think from HG. Before I came to the blog, I didn’t even recognize all the apparently self-effacing midrangers as narcs!

          And like you said, we can only do that since we are no longer emotionally or romantically attached. Anyone still wondering if there’s hope their narc will change or still in pain over the relationship needs to GOSO.

        2. NarcAngel
          I wanted to add that while I understand your reason for not talking a lot about your narc interactions, I am so glad that you have and do sometimes. It means a lot to me when you do. It is always a comfort and support to hear that we are not alone, that our experiences are not unique. That’s one of the healing aspects of this blog and your presence and sharing your thoughts and experiences provides that for me. Thank you, friend! (I was going to add a ❤️, but I don’t want to make you gag! Lol!)

          1. Windstorm

            The heart emoji makes HG gag (so please do go ahead lol). I still got one of your signature exclamations!!!!!


      2. I find them fascinating since I have had 2 and 1 of them return however even with all of the therapy and the plethora of information I’ve read and studied, the bottom line is they are toxic and if you are exposed long enough you will exhibit signs of the toxicity. I once said to the therapist I think it’s me me with nod / bpd and the response was no I am 100 percent certain you are not. Lori when you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

      3. NarcAngel, the last one I’ve been involved with gave up after one week with the words how much he felt hurt …… i was a bit disappointed how fast he gave up. Only because I wouldn’t play his games with him according to his rules. …**sulks**

    4. NarcAngel
      Ha, ha! Love you have long-running science experiments, too! That’s the way to go for life-long learning! 😄

      1. I quit playing with fire. Thanks HG for sharing your life. I don’t know why you do it unless you gain fuel from tattling on your kind lol. But my life is better because of you although I am alone. No more Russian Roulette either. GOSO There’s got to be one good man out there for me! “One good man, it ain’t much, it’s just everything.” Janis Joplin

      2. GREAT JOB! Not smart to play with the fire. I don’t care how smart or knowledgeable on the subject one is They are dangerous people.

        I quite liked watching the expirment but honestly deep down inside it was a lame excuse to stay engaged.

        The bottom line is if you are continuing to engage with these people unless you absolutely have to example kids or they aes your boss etc then you are getting some kind of emotional pay off that you need. Some will not be willing to admit this but it is true.

        It is neither healthy nor wise to continue engage with these people. Continuing to engage with knowm toxic people after a certain amount of time likely means you have some issues that need dealing with. Just my take

        Again great job!

    5. NA,

      ‘He replied: “the end my balls. Im not finished with you yet. Is there a particular cheek you want kissed first?”. ‘

      With my “impulse control” problem, there is no way I could have resisted answering, “The back 2 will do just fine, thank you!”


        1. NA,
          I know! Sorry. I used to do Captain Obvious to tick off my narc. Then when he said “I never said that!” I’d say “Yes, you did. I remember, because you got angry and asked why do I repeat what you just said”.
          And you are not a narc, my apologies.
          I do wish I could follow you around with a notebook for a couple days. I am amused and amazed at the way you deal with the narcs in your life. ; D

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