Does The Narcissist Really Want To Change?
“But I can change.”
A phrase so often said by some of our kind. You will, more likely than not, have heard this sentence at some point during your entanglement with us. Usually it is uttered as part of a Preventative Hoover when the narcissist sees that there is a considerable risk that you are going to depart the Formal Relationship and in so doing threaten the provision of fuel from the chief source. It also makes an appearance as part of the Initial Grand Hoover to draw you back in, should you have managed to take those first steps towards escape. You will hear it in Benign Follow-Up Hoovers although following the effluxion of time you are more likely to hear the cousin, namely, “But I have changed.” Occasionally it appears within the devaluation phase, following an unpleasant episode as part of the further manipulation to keep you bound to the narcissist and providing fuel. Accordingly, its use will occur at different parts of the narcissistic dynamic.
To some, the sentence contains the magical words that the empath is waiting to hear. The empath’s inherent desire to fix, to heal and to repair longs for that acknowledgement by the narcissist that they can alter their behaviour, make new and fresh choices, learn from the mistakes and choose a better path. The declaration of a willingness to change is welcomed by certain empaths and they selflessly accept this statement, believing that all people have some good within, that it is a case of recognising this and applying a different approach.
To others, the words are welcomed but with caution. Perhaps the devaluing behaviour has been so deep and savage that the recipient is wary, fearful of their hopes being raised too soon. Their inherent desire to see change, for the good of both people in the relationship wants to agree, to grab this offer with both hands and see to its implementation, but dare they hope that it can be done? Indeed they can, for in that moment, as the cool, hard logic of caution makes its presence felt, it becomes overrun by the soaring emotional thinking that cries out – “He has realised. He knows he has done wrong. He wants to make amends. He wants to change.” The emotional thinking brings forth those twin sisters of pressure – Hope and Guilt. The empath, chained to the concept of hope, sincerely wishes that the person that they love will change and become a better person. Guilt also weighs in, whispering, “What if it is genuine, what if he can change and you do not give him a chance, what a bad person you will be for doing that?” The emotional thinking will win out.
Rarely will this protestation of being able to change go unheeded. Rarely will the opportunity not be given to the narcissist who states that this can be done. It is only the informed, those who can apply their cool, hard logic and resist the rising tide of emotional thinking who can repel the allure of those enticing words. For everyone else, they are drawn into allowing the narcissist a further opportunity to keep they, the victim, in place.
Yet, who is it of our brethren who issues this plea? What is meant by it and can it really happen?
You will rarely hear it from the Lesser Narcissist. He sees no reason to change. He or she does as they want. If he smashed up the house or physically attacked you, well it was your fault that it happened and once the ignited fury has abated, the best you will get is that the reset button is pressed and nothing is said about the previous behaviour. The statement of change might be issued if the Lesser faces a fuel crisis and in absolute desperation it is blurted out in order to prevent the cessation of his primary supply but come the morning after, the intention will have evaporated and any suggestion of change will be rejected. The crisis has been averted, the wound healed and fury abated and the entitled Lesser is not going to make those changes, not when of course it was your fault ll along.
If reminded of his intention, he will brush it to one side, telling you he will look into it, that he is busy with something else at the moment but you can talk later, that he has to go to work, that he has someone to see and you will be left dangling. He will not return to the discussion about making a change or seeking help and fearing a further explosive episode you do not press further and there the matter is left.
You will rarely hear it from the Greater Narcissist. He sees no reason to change either. Oh, we know what we do but that is borne out of necessity and it is what must be done. Our needs, superior to yours, require this behaviour and if you cannot accept it, well we can easily find someone else who will, because, after all, we are the prize, the champion and the ultimate, so it is your loss. The Greater will not issue this plea as a Preventative Hoover or such like to stop you leaving. True, he will not want his primary source to escape. This is a matter of fuel provision but often more of pride and superiority. After all, the extensive fuel matrices of the Greater school ( see The Fuel Matrix – Part Three ) means that even if the primary source had the audacity to escape he has plenty of other sources to turn to in the meanwhile. He will however not want to suffer the wounding of this primary source escaping and will want to stop it, but he will use charm and threat to achieve this, not the plea that he will change. It is beneath him.
The only time you might hear these words uttered by the Greater Narcissist is purely because he sees the opportunity for more Machiavellian behaviours through manipulating his victim by engendering false hope. He will see the opportunity to increase his trade craft through agreeing to engage in therapy. He will see it not as a chance to change, but rather an opportunity to learn more about himself (and why not, since he is such a fascinating creature), understand more about his ways and indeed take on the challenge of therapists and the like. If he agrees to changing his behaviour and enlisting external advice and assistance he will also lay down terms and conditions for this occurring in order to further his own agenda. You will however never hear the Greater Narcissist use the phrase “But I can change” as part of some desperate plea.
Accordingly, this leaves us with the school which uses this manipulation often, far more often than the other schools and that is of course the Mid Range Narcissist. The Mid Ranger uses this manipulation for the following reasons:-
- He sees him or herself as a good person. Their perspective means they genuinely regard themselves as decent people and therefore since they are decent, they will, well, do the decent thing and look at making a change;
- They regard themselves as giving and they are prepared to make that sacrifice if it means saving the relationship;
- They consider themselves to be something of a tortured soul, they have “their demons”, there is something eating away at them and they wish to address it;
- They need to be saved and you are the person who can save them. They lack the pig-headed arrogance of the Lesser or the sneering superiority of the Greater.
What is behind those driving factors?
- The narcissistic perspective. They consider themselves the one who does good and it is other people who cause the problems, but because they are SO good they will prove that by addressing the issues which have been raised. This is not because they actually believe there is something wrong with them in terms of culpability but rather it is actually an opportunity for them to show the world that they are good and it is other people who are the problem.
- This is the victim perspective coming to the fore. The world is a horrible place and no matter how much they try to help others, the world keeps trying to bring them down but that doesn’t matter because guess what? They will rise above it and they will be the one who takes one for the team, who makes the sacrifice and does so for the greater good.
- This is the victim perspective once again. They do not see that they are disordered. They do not recognise that they manipulate. They are incapable of doing so because they have no insight or awareness. They do however regard this whole concept of being a ‘tortured soul’ as a magnificent device for drawing fuel. Sympathy, concern and compassion all come flowing. This is not an acknowledgement that there is anything wrong with the Mid Ranger but rather he blames ‘the demon’ (whatever that might be) because blame-shifting is a key defence mechanism and blaming you, the neighbours, the weather or an intangible concept will all work for him.
- This is the victim perspective once more but also all part of the sympathy grab for attention. The Mid Ranger wishes to draw pity and compassion but then also be revered, for he is the fallen hero who has been saved and is then able to rise once more, in the magical thinking that plays out in his mind.
The Middle Mid Ranger and Upper Mid Ranger have sufficient cognitive function to realise that their behaviour causes a problem. This is where many victims (understandably) are fooled into thinking that the narcissist is actually showing insight (indeed this often causes them to either think that the narcissist is not a narcissist, or that he is but he can actually change) . The MMR or UMR may acknowledge that his actions cause hurt and problems, however, he or she will never accept ownership of the hurt and problems. For instance, they might say,
“I know that when I disappear for a few days you are worried sick, BUT I need space because you are always pestering me.”
“I understand that you are hurt when I say certain things BUT I am under pressure at work at the moment and you aren’t helping when you question me about why I am home late.”
They can see the consequence but they will not own the consequence. They are configured not to do so.
As is always the case, the uninformed victim accepts the third party explanation as the cause of the errant behaviour or self-flagellates and the victim blames him or herself. So the cause of the problem is regarded as pressure at work or the pestering of the victim.
The Mid Ranger will state he can change and moreover he will also act on the declaration which again sows the seeds of false hope and ensures the victim remains in situ and providing fuel. This is just a further part of the manipulation.
The Mid-Ranger may become more attentive, does not dole out silent treatments, removes the manipulations and stops sulking for a few weeks. This is a Respite Period and he has implemented this because when you said you would not leave, you became painted white again because you did what he wanted. You succumbed to his control and your gracious behaviour provided fuel. The golden period returns and this is what powers his altered ways. It is not because there is any recognition that he must change because it hurts you. The alteration is because you have done what he wanted, thus his split thinking makes you ‘white’ once more and this is what keeps the devaluation at bay, but only for a while.
Naturally, the unwitting victim, having seen changes effected (but not knowing the real reason behind them) is conned into thinking that these changes can happen again and therefore when the plea “But I can change” is made at a later time, the victim is swamped by hope because it happened before (thus it can surely happen again) and thus the cycle continues.
If you return to the Formal Relationship through an Initial Grand Hoover or a Benign Follow-Up Hoover you are painted white once more and the golden period returns, creating the illusion of changed behaviours. Until it tarnishes in due course.
The insidious manipulative manner of the Mid Ranger means that these changes come in many forms. He will alter his actions at home. He will cease the affair shelving the IPSS as your Respite Period Golden Period draws him back to you. He will help out, he will show that inkling of charm once again. He will of course herald his new-found redemption to third parties because this will garner fuel and maintain the facade and of course accords with his complete conviction that he is a good person. This will also provide him with ammunition to hurl at you at the appropriate time, in that he made the changes and if things have faltered it has to be your fault then.
The Mid Ranger will readily attend therapy sessions. This allows him to do several things:-
- Show you he is willing and a good person;
- He can maintain the facade, “Dawn wanted me to go to therapy and because I love her so much it was the least I could do.” (now tell me how wonderful a husband I am).
- He will use the therapy sessions to advance his own agenda. Often the victim will not know what is discussed owing to confidentiality. Therefore the Mid-Ranger, convinced of his own goodness and lack of culpability, will manipulate the therapist (and will do so convincingly most of the time). Thereafter, the Mid Ranger will tell the victim that actually the therapist said that the victim is the abuser and that the narcissist is the victim. This might be true, an exaggeration of the observations of the unwitting therapist or a lie. Either way, this will leave the victim undermined such is the conviction of the narcissist. Ally that with the fact the victim has seen some changes, their own eroded self-worth and reduced critical thinking and it comes as no surprise that the victim is confused or even believes what the narcissist is saying.
- The narcissist can hold it over the victim. “I did as you asked and got some help. They told me there is no issue.” (Now you owe me and I am going to ensure I extract that debt from you repeatedly).
The desire to change is motivated by entirely different reasons than you realise and this desire is not genuine. The change is short-lived, never permanent and any and all behaviours associated with it, no matter how genuine they appear, no matter how earnest the pleading, no matter how many tears are spilled (and the Mid Ranger will turn on the waterworks) it is all part of the manipulation.
They cannot and will not change.
Grasp that understanding so that when you hear “But I can change”, cool,hard logic prevails and you resist the allure of hope. People are inherently optimistic. Empathic people even more so, but the dark side of this hope is vulnerability and our kind and in particular the Mid-Ranger count on that and exploit it.
192 thoughts on “Does The Narcissist Really Want To Change?”
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Hi SuperXena, I think HG classifies Greaters as psychopaths. Mine is a mid-ranger of some sort (upper, maybe) but I did tell him he was a psychopath and in another life could have been a serial killer because some part of his brain is missing. I have also read that some people might in fact be born narcs – I don’t think researchers really know – and the only thing that stops them from violence is good parenting. I really don’t know and my narc and I did not exactly have a long conversation about his childhood etc :-). I found the Fallon thing fascinating because it suggests that psychopaths can contribute great things to society even if they cannot relate to other people.
Hello SMH,
Yes, the school of Greaters are the ones that present psychopathic traits ( or sociopathic traits that are slightly different) according to HG’s classification ( some may even have sadistic traits and machiavellism but not all of them) .
Where the line is drawn between a narcissistic psychopath and a psychopathic narcissist depends on where in the spectrum they fall into.
Although “ pure” psychopaths have these traits:
Ruthlessness,fearlessness,impusivity,sel confidence,focus,coolness under pressure,mental toughness,charm,charisma, lack of empathy,no conscience, no remorse. The degree of some of these traits varies from psychopath to psychopath. They then can present strong narcissistic traits but do not fall completely into NPD as such.
It is a misconception that all psychopaths are violent( my ex was a Greater and he was not violent).
You are right . The research done regarding this matter states that not all psychopaths are violent. It depends on external factors ( toxic environment/abuse during childhood) that may trigger some genetic switches.
This is explained by a new discipline emerging out of the field of genetics : epigenetic.
As far as I know, this genetic switches( prone to violence) are present in everybody and the may be switched on due to a violent traumatic childhood. They are not exclusive of psychopaths.
I have sent you some information regarding epigenetic and how the environment affects a psychopath ( prosocial psychopaths vs non prosocial psychopaths).
My comments to you have been many and long, it has turned to be more like an inner dialogue of this topic that fascinates me. I had to canalise this in some way and it was through you! I hope you find them though informative.
Best wishes
I do find your comments informative, SuperEx. The topic fascinates me too. There was something about my narc’s brain that was so ‘off’ that I am sure he has some structural abnormalities or a neurological disorder. I describe it as dealing with a flat paper bag rather than a balloon.
I am glad you do SMH.
I have to read this Fallon (I assume its not Jimmy). People tried to crucify me for previously suggesting they could contribute greatly to society and that we benefit.
NarcAngel
Good thing you’re hard to kill!
Windstorm
Haha. This cat has nine lives.
Ha, no, NA, though his name is also James. He’s a neuroscientist. He was analyzing two sets of brain scans – one of psychopaths and one of his own family members for Alzheimers. He got them mixed up, looked at one that belonged in the psychopath group and it turned out to be his own brain scan…He refers to himself as a narcissist, so I think we can safely say that from a neuroscientist’s point of view, narcissism is psychopathic. Pretty cool stuff.
Hello NarcAngel,
“People tried to crucify me for previously suggesting they could contribute greatly to society and that we benefit.”
Following your line of thoughts,I would like to recommend you a book ( if you have not read it yet) .I think you will enjoy it. It is a very thought provoking book and one that has awakened a lot of debate and polemics.
“The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success” by Kevin Dutton
* Dr Kevin Dutton is a researcher psychologist at the Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford.
It would be very interesting to exchange some thoughts with you about the ideas presented in this book.
Hello NarcAngel,
“People tried to crucify me for previously suggesting they could contribute greatly to society and that we benefit.”
Following your line of thoughts,I would like to recommend you a book ( if you have not read it yet) .I think you will enjoy it. It is a very thought provoking book and one that has awakened a lot of debate and polemics.
“The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success” by Kevin Dutton
* Dr Kevin Dutton is a research fellow at the Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford. He is an affiliated member of the Royal Society of Medicine and of the Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy. He is the author of the acclaimed Flipnosis: The Art of Split-Second Persuasion
It would be interesting to exchange some thoughts with you about the ideas presented in this book.
Hello Quasi
Your words of support to Christine are so thoughtful and wise. Your advice is stellar as well. I’m surprised only 1 person has liked your comment… though I’m confident that most readers of the blog don’t comment for a variety of reasons… I’m a tentative commenter myself!
A wise mix of logic and emotion. You seem to be close to graduation from Tudor College!
Thank you Tappi tikkarass that is very kind of you. I really appreciate your words, and you taking the time to express this. It means a lot to me.
You’re very welcome Quasi. I’m a freshman at Tudor College (coming up to a semester) though deserve an honorary PhD for my past Narc experiences. It’s heartening to see so many bright and intelligent commenters at Tudor Hall.
I like what you have done there with the college Tappi…
I have no idea where I would be in the stages of this creative place of learning. In the Uk we have a different structure in education and higher education, but I understand your meaning.
I have learnt a great deal here and don’t really have questions as I find the articles so well written and full of the information you need for a particular subject /dynamic. They answer any and all questions that I might have. So I just tend to comment on my observations of the article itself, or refer to my experience, or discuss subjects with other commenters really. My experience was also minimal compared to the others here, so this also has a relevance in relation to the stage I’m at now, and the fact that my questions are answered.
As long as my graduation from this college is less embarrassing then my real life graduation ceremony then we are on to a winner!
At least when I graduate and leave this college people may have a few less epic long posts to read ( brevity is not an asset of mine) .. although Everyone has been so lovely and welcoming to me and the way I express myself. I feel I would be quite sad when the time comes to say goodbye….
thank you again Tappi, I have enjoyed our dialogue and love your take on the blog and the way we learn here.
LOL, Quasi. Brevity is not an asset of mine either! It’s funny because it WAS my narc’s way and because of that, HG triggers me sometimes. I now associate brevity with narcissists and long, expressive posts with empaths.
Yay ….. does that mean I pass the empath test !!! Hurrah !!…. damn this is too short let me think of something else to say ………….. thinking
Thinking
Bear with
Thinking
An expressive empath lost for words who da funk it…
Thinking
Oh yeah got it SMH – your supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
Um- dittle- ittl- um- dittle- I
And I’m spent …..
Qx
You got it, Quasi! I had to train narc to use an emoticon or an exclamation point on occasion. He was also hyper-focused and light on the punctuation, just like HG. He could also spot what directly involved him out of a lengthy email, somewhat like how HG can pick out a question embedded in a really long and scattered post. We empaths are scatter brained. I have to edit everything before I hit send.
Well to HG and all who read the Love Fraud I am happy we cleared this up, as I am all over the place of looking up 411. I am part of helping Ms. Joyce Short with Rape by Fraud Law and some other things. Me Too as Narcissist are part of many of these things MORE so if they have money and power. HG, I did NOT contact Donna A. about this, It wasn’t that important to me of you having a connection to her, just trying to find out WHY or IF you were on there, as a waste of time for you OR you were bloody drunk one night and went on a fun spree, but I would believe you would of been anonymous…..lol ok Cheers to all of you 🙂
Spiritual Warrior
I see your intentions were to influence people to take a look, you are happy now that readers took a look and “we cleared this up”
“It wasn’t that important to me of you having a connection to her, just trying to find out WHY or IF you were on there, as a waste of time for you OR you were bloody drunk one night and went on a fun spree, but I would believe you would of been anonymous…..lol ok Cheers to all of you 🙂”
IMO you just said you believed he lied to you the first time he told you it wasn’t him, because if it wasn’t important you would not have brought the subject back up.
If you are just seeking information for someone why have you not just booked a consultation with HG and spoken privately?
I agree with you Spiritual Warrior
That is not HG’s writing! Someone trying to steal his thunder.
Google ( HG Tudor on LoveFraud a Narcissist victim forum ) HG you keep saying you do not know what I am referring too….BUT here it is UNLESS someone was falsely being you. https://lovefraud.com/forums/topic-tag/hg-tudor-narcissist-malignant-fraud-idiot-scam-liar-mentally-ill-greater-narcissist-narcissism/
That is nothing to do with me. I do not post anywhere else under my name (or any other).
That is not HG. Apart from the fact that he says it is not him, the writing is definitely not his.
Spiritual Warrior
Personally I think it is someone trying to catch HG wave and coast on his reputation.
Twilight,
I agree. A copycat maybe? ( unsuccessful one)
Hi Superxena
Possibly a copycat in trying to put information out there, yet from what I gather from my reading of comments last night more like trying to prove HG is a fake and fraud. Who ever it is, is unprofessional in their approach.
I got the feeling from reading the comments one person was using multiple names and commenting as “different” people all negative towards HG, the blog and of the commentators here. Making statements of favoritism (others here) and being targeted by HG, etc.
If anyone actually read the comments they would see it is not HG from the writing style, the person that goes by Me (the sociopath) used an emoji and goes into a what if scenario of a plan of bringing HG down, that and comments of how HG pisses them off by his arrogance and approach.
By time I was done I couldn’t even laugh at the absurdity of the entire thing.
Correct. It isn’t someone pretending to be me but attacking me. I know who it is.
I could think of a few from this blog that aren’t here anymore that would do this! Pathetic 🤦🏼♀️
Foolme1time
I can think of the few I have witnessed come through here over the past 2 years. I guess their audience has dropped sense HG walked on stage with not only accuracy yet the ability to explain things so anyone can understand that wants to learn and not just listen to a bunch of sugarcoated Recycled text and they now can not compete with it so attacking HG is the next step to showing how foolish they really are.
There has been quite a few Twilight! Some I remember more then other’s! He always weeds out the bad seeds or let’s us do it! 😝
Yes foolome1time, so true some are more memorable then others.
Twilight I wish I had the ability to use logic the way he does! He beats them down every time with his knowledge and logic. 😉
FM1T
It shows the difference in interactions between an empath and one of HGs kind and a Greater interacting with one of the lower schools.
I also believe it reenforces the why when HG states how they do not affect him like they do us.
You are so right Twilight! I have been working very hard to use logic more and my emotions less. I know at times my emotions and passion for something or someone take over and it’s all down hill from there. By watching and learning from HG I have improved in this area, but I still have a long road to travel. I have much improvements needed in many areas! Hopefully someday I will get there. 🌻
FM1T
You will get there. You have come far sense I first came here.
HG is a brilliant teacher.
Hi Twilight,
I completely agree with you.
Spiritual Warrior
I went and read what this person is writing about, have you actually read the material or are you trying to influence others here to take a look at it? I ask due to this is not the first time you have brought this up and HG stating it has nothing to do with him and that he doesn’t post anywhere else under his or any other name. I didn’t bother to look the first time due to I believed him when he answered you the first time, this time I looked due to you repeating yourself and making it look to me that you are inadvertently calling him a lier and I wanted to see why.
Twilight your statement is incorrect. Mr. Tudor’s posts have appeared on other sites under HG Tudor. After all his comments there directed me to this site. He did not write that he does not post anywhere else under any other name. You speculate. Spiritual Worrier’s question is peculiar and illogical because Mr. Tudor would not be posting against himself or his own interests. Or would he?
I do not post on any other sites under my own name or any other name. I only post on my own platforms. I only do voice interviews so my listeners know that that is me and therefore if somebody is posting under HG Tudor in writing on a platform which is not one of mine, that poster is not me.
Gee, this is making me curious what is being posted out there? If I wasn’t such a cautious (I.e. paranoid) person I would go into the link and see, but I don’t want to have to delete cookies off my phone again.
Maybe someone is reposting your articles and thinks this is ok because they put your name on them? I know sometimes in the past people have asked if they can reproduce something from your work and you said as long as they credited you for it. Could it be as simple as that? Or is it someone pretending to be you?
Catherine Parr R
Yes his articles has appeared on other sites because many here copy the link to an article and share it, henceforth a link showing where it originated. HG doesn’t do this we do.
If you had taken the time to follow the link SW shared you would have seen the difference and reconised how it is being used to attack not only HG, yet his work and those here that comment.
Comments/replies made on Facebook and YouTube under ‘knowing the narcissist’ made by a HG Tudor is not you?
They are my platforms and thus are mine, as stated
Commenting on YouTube would be defined or understood as ‘other site’ and another’s platform holding access to your page. Narcsite.com is your platform.
Fair enough.
The person “Me” stated that when they were in high school, they went into people Facebook accounts. Facebook started in 2004. I’m pretty sure HG wasn’t in high school then. I may be wrong.
Correct.
I’m now certain that the narc I was involved with was an upper mid range. Very successful, highly intelligent, kind, caring, and giving when it suits him—but the way he discarded me is still shocking to me. He went back to his ex,whom he cheated on with me, begging and pleading with her to take him back just as we were making serious plans for our own future-the day before! Of course, he cheated on me too, so I am experienced in how very genuine and effective his oaths to change are. He would always cry, plead, swear to go to therapy, get on antidepressants, offer up gifts and glorious intimate trips for us to reconnect, tell me I’m the best and most forgiving woman he’s ever known—all of it. And I so wanted to believe him. Now his ex is contacting me, along with mutual friends, saying that I was an awful, jealous woman who basically held him hostage for 10 years and tore him away from his family. I’m stunned at how blatantly a narc can lie. It is tortuous to think that she is going through that golden period now- his expressions of desire to change are some of the most powerful emotional manipulations in the world. I have to remain no contact more than ever now. I think seeing pics of them on a trip together would just about kill me. I’m stuck, though, because over our 10 years he did change a lot in some ways. He became less verbally abusive and tried to stick to most of his promises. He thinks he’s good. So now I’m wondering if at 51, he really will change, and for her. It is mindfucking.
Amanda, If it’s any consolation, I was IPSS, not IPPS, but I saw mine go through many ‘golden periods’ with IPPS. Each time, I was sure he would not come back (I let him go – I did not want to be his IPPS) but then he would reappear, to my utter shock. It’s a facade and it won’t last. Yours can’t change. Still, you need to keep moving forward. As HG would say, get out, stay out.
So true. Me too. I’ve experienced the same.
I was an IPSS. He would laugh and sneer about counselling that his IPSS made him go to saying he was too clever for the counsellor. He even agreed to go for me in one occasion. Lied.
I’m no contact I didn’t want to be a IPSS.
*IPPS
Em, I didn’t really want to be IPSS either and am NC now too. I didn’t know he was married for the first part of our relationship because, well, he SAID he was divorced. He even gave me the timeline. When I left him I said I didn’t want to be IPSS anymore because he was unhappy and I wasn’t the cause of his unhappiness so I couldn’t fix it. That was only part of the reason I left. The other part was that he was impossible to deal with.
I was so naive that I was shocked when he mentioned the counseling. I really could not fathom how someone could go to counseling with his IPPS and lie, even though he had lied to me. I suppose I excused his initial lies to me but of course the whole time I was IPSS he was lying to IPPS. When I pointed out the parallels – that he treated both of us the same way – he didn’t understand and left the conversation.
SMH interesting similarities. I can ask the question of you and me now…. the first time round I didn’t know he was in a relationship … when I did I left. Then he hoovered me back in and I thought oh well I’m single and it’s her problem not mine. I eventually though couldn’t continue because of my conscience and the lack of affection and time commitment from him.
I stopped.
He hoovered me again when she left, lied to me let me think he was single but didn’t want a full on relationship. I went on for another 6 years avoiding telling myself there was somebody. Lying to myself. 2hrs here 2hrs there. Dirty phone calls.
The question is why did you and I accept it first time round when we found out we were IPSS? Why was it ok?
It wasn’t ok this time and i had told him this at the out set. When I found out when it became real it was like being in a vacuum chamber having all the breath sucked out of me. And yet deep down I had always known.
Hi Em, I am sorry he did that to you AGAIN. I would never trust mine now. I don’t think he had more than me and IPPS (maybe online etc) but I am sure if I were IPPS he would cheat. Just can’t help himself!
I think you and I have similarities but I was more ambivalent. When I found out about IPPS we had not seen each other for 6 months (I was away), and we weren’t really ‘dating.’ The biggest thing for me was that he lied but he couched it as a reconciliation so I thought he wanted to get his life back on track. Three weeks later he contacted me on a dating site. Can anyone say ‘red flag’? :-). I told him he was psycho and blocked him.
Two months later I reached out (this was the pattern) and he persuaded me to be IPSS. We talked about it – what it meant, how we would both feel, possible pitfalls etc. I warned him it would be a train wreck but he did not listen, and I left the decision up to him.
I had a ton of anxiety about him anyway so I left a week after the affair started. Three weeks later I reached out (again!) because I had left so abruptly. He convinced me to return to the FR (this happened a lot). I returned and he was very present for a month until I stabilized. Then boom, he reverted. A month later we had an argument and agreed to end it. Again, face to face.
Six months NC followed with him stalking me online and then I STUPIDLY again contacted him to apologize for something (I had also dumped him a month after we met and then reached out – so I did this four or five times). He tried to talk me back into the FR. We even saw each other and had a sweet reunion. But I refused to go back because I then saw the pattern.
I didn’t have much of a conscience about IPPS. He had conditioned (‘groomed’) me and it wasn’t any different from when we were ‘dating.’ We both traveled a lot and didn’t see each other much, and when we did, it was fine. I had just separated when I met him and was not ready for another full on relationship. I wanted to have fun but I am very monogamous and have never really ‘dated.” We met and boom. Intense attraction which continued throughout all of this. Very hard to separate the physical chemistry from the rest of it.
The whole time I felt caged by his behavior rather than by being IPSS per se. As you say, the time and affection weren’t there. When I escaped, I laid out conditions. If he wants ME he has to leave IPPS, and be 100% present. Then WE will decide – it matters what I want too. I know he won’t do it but it is my own rule for even considering any kind of FR with him. That is what YOU should too. Know your value, know your worth. Write down your rules. Tell him. Stick to them.
I am only in NC because if I reach out, he will suck me back in. I would be friends with him but I tried post escape and he twisted things so badly that it ended up being the worst part of our relationship.
Right now I feel in limbo. I just wrote in response to someone else that it feels like he has a vise around my neck, probably because of the online stalking. It means I cannot escape his gaze and he makes me think of him. I think he thinks I will reach out again, as that is my weakness and he knows it. It is a kind of battle of wills at this point.
Oh and by the way, I told IPPS (anonymously). Don’t think she believed me because if she did and confronted him, he wouldn’t have these fake FB profiles, at least not yet as it’s only been a few months and I could easily prove they are him. It’s all too tiring at this point…I can’t play these mental games.
Anyway, sorry this is so long but hope it helps.
Hi amanda…im sorry youre struggling with your narc and his ex. I think youre wise in realising no contact is imperitive! Narcissists really will promise you the moon and stars and know exactly what you want to hear. Mine has done it several times.
Youd said he had changed but i think it was a temporary change for you. It reminds me of an alcoholic that stops drinking for their partner but as soon as they break up goes right back to drinking. I really dont think it was permanent. Its dangerous going down that road of he changed and how much more will he change now for the ex. Hes not changed. He cheated on you and went back to her thats proof enough. The mind is really good at fooling itself. Hes not changed until he wants to come back to you, again temporary and he will show you all the ways hes changed which is all lies.
All the best in your no contact 💓
It reminds me of my ex narc. We have known each other for 2 years. He is also 51. And got separated 10 years ago (divorced 9 years ago). Since then he must have seduced many. He loves blondes.
That’s sounds mentally and emotionally distressing to say the least! I’m sorry. The MRs really do seem sweet… It makes you spin. Very shocking.
My MR even told me he WAS sweet. I am really a sweet guy, he said. He obviously knows that most people are suspicious of his sweet side! Weirdly, I still think of him as sweet, but then I can occasionally be sweet too…
Hahahahahah #3!
I lost the number of times my MMRN blamed the weather for his behavior!!!!
I am so glad you addressed this topic, it was one of the questions that has had tormented my mind for some time, theapy that’s a joke, at least in my experience yes they can fool “theapists” quite easily and for the most part turn it around and play the victim, if it wasn’t so treatorious it would almost be laughable…
I wanted to comment on your book Exorcism, do excuse if it is lengthy…
I have read countless books, watched hundreds of informative videos, among other things to give me the strength that at the time I couldn’t find within, without saying to much about my journey, I recently discovered H.G. Tudor, I was searching u tube and came across an interview with him, although quite disturbing the words that flowed from his lips as vile as they were they were quite interesting and mesmerizing and gave me some answers to questions that held my thoughts in a state of prison I guess you could say, so I started to read his blogs,they are very informative if you can stomach the truth hitting you in the face like a brick, I was a bit skeptical in the beginning but from having experienced the evil first hand, it’s point on, even after reading all about the subject from all different resources, I have to say this is different, reading how they think, from one of their kinds perspective is unlike no other, “behind the masks of their reality” ….. others such as doctors, theapist’s can only see things from eyes of others not their own it’s never the same just as no one understanding unless you have been in that sinking suffocating relationship..
…. Not that you care Mr.Tudor but I have to say you have been able to help me more than anyone with your insight plus I really like your analogies ha the do come in handy…… this book is absolutely amazing and I am not even finished with it the more I read the stronger I become! Anyone who is at the point where you have searched and informed yourself with so much knowledge yet find yourself still searching to find the peace you so crave, maybe this will help you as much as it’s helped me!
You are welcome TT.
Mine thought there was nothing wrong with him
Thank you HG
Words of truth. Wisdom.
My x was always saying he would change.
And he did – for a while. But it all went haywire.
The behaviour dipped down once more.
The last time we split – I knew what he was and had already accepted that every word that comes out of his mouth is lies.
I told him he stamped on my boundaries. “I wont do it ever again” he pleaded. “please”
but I had heard it all before.
I just let him go. Pack his back. Even as he packed he told me I was making a mistake. That I would wreck the children’s lives. I turned the music up and watched him pack – fear and sadness like waves washing over me. Such a sad, sad January and February. But I am making it. And there is no going back ever. I still pray for him though.
Ha my mid-ranger to a T. Spot on again, HG. Thank goodness I watched and waited the fourth time around. Also, the year before, when I was really in the dark and right after he dragged me into an affair (twice), he mentioned ‘therapy’ to me. I thought he was in individual therapy and said, ‘have you mentioned me?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘my wife is right there.’ Shoulda seen the look on my face. I was so shocked and naive…The only reason he went was indeed to maintain the facade.
So why do I worry about hurting his feelings? Why do I still think about the good times? Why do I still want to know he thinks about me? Maybe I have more of a problem than he does.
Because you’re a human with empathy who genuinely felt love and compassion and the relationship was real to you. I’m stuck in this place too.
He still contacts me and says all the right things but I have fallen for it before. It never worked out.
Hi Christine, everything you are feeling is true and real to you. You feel because you can, you think about him because he has left an imprint in your mind, and because he keeps contacting you, he is trying to stop you from moving forward, or away from him.
He is like a child with a yo yo, flings you away, but the string brings you right back to him again.
I am trying to think of some practical advise that may help. I say this often on here but pen to paper helps so much.
All the questions that you want to ask him or just what you want to know. Write them all out leaving a good gap between them. Then read them outloud in turn, think and write down the first things that come to your mind.. quite often the deeper answers are within you, it’s just a case of picking them out.
Take time to do this and to reflect. What is the string that holds you to him, is it what you wanted from him? what he represented to you? What your relationship represented to you?
Emotions tell us things that our rational mind can not, your feeling emotional pain because you have been emotionally wounded.
When you have a physical wound you tend to it, dress it, keep it protected to heal it. Our mind needs the same care and attention. Self care and being kind to yourself is so fundamentally important right now.
The key thing to remember with the narcissist is fuel is the rule, they will literally do and say anything to draw you to them, but it is not for you or because they care, it is to suit their aims. All the other women are the same, they may or may not be out of his life.
We can’t shut our feelings off without numbing them all and believe me you do not want to go to that place.
Try to use them to your benefit, feel them and release them, if they are pushed down or away – they get bigger and can’t take over.
Take your time, you will get there.
take care Christine.
Christine, Don’t contact him please! Contact HG instead. He has
so many ways you can consult with him. You could write the questions you have for your ex and ask HG instead, or do a phone or Skype consult. He will help you get through this. This is the toughest part, but as time goes on you will get through it. Read, ask questions, talk to others on the blog but please don’t contact him. 🌻
I kept thinking…”maybe this time he means it. And the other women are out of his life.” I even told myself I could deal with some of the things that were going on. Unfortunately it always ended the same way. The last time I started the fight more out of frustration that I was seeing the same pattern. He insisted he had done nothing wrong.
I wish I could just turn off my feelings but they are still there.
If you consult with me, I’ll show you how to deal with those feelings to your benefit.
Because you are an empath, Christine. I worried about hurting mine’s feelings too. When I finally kicked him to the curb, I apologized afterwards and tried to explain (useless). Yet I STILL think about the good times and I know he does think of me. That is my truth and I am sticking to it.
It has been so frustrating for me.
I know, Christine. It is extremely frustrating. Mine would also start out each time sweet and understanding, and say all the right things. We’d laugh, have long discussions about making it work. But he would revert and after the third or fourth time I reached my limits and exploded from stress and frustration. Actually, what happened is that I escaped and was quite nice about it but he would not leave me alone even though I had asked him to, and things got more and more twisted (again). I can’t say I am happier without him but I am more whole without him. Pity I couldn’t be happy and whole with him. I still have bouts of guilt but reading this blog helps.
Thank you everyone for the advice and support. It actually makes me think I can get through this.
Meditation and hypnosis can help them.. I think is the only thing that can help them to change.
Not so, G
H.G. I learned about that your site via lovefraud. I have gone on there in awhile. I must say, I had to laugh at the H.G. exposed post. I am sure you felt some power knowing the longest thread on there was because you were mentioned.
The one lady was definitely emotional and upset that you ignored her and allowed H.G. 12 to attack her 😊 Its always cold and dark in her town. The other lady is very angry and said some pretty mean things. I don’t think she’s one of us, because she hit way below the belt.
By us I mean borderline.
Carry on….I am a witness to the good that can come from this blog.Opps…ans the bad
The individual concerned was not ignored but politely responded to. She however (wrongly) perceived she was ignored and has embarked on repeated unacceptable behaviours regarding me and other readers which means that such spurious comments are now ignored.
Oooohhhhh, there is a name that comes to mind now that you mention behavior towards other readers. And believe it or not, I don’t think it’s ED !
Let’s be having it then Clarece.
I emailed you my answer.
HG,
For the sake of clarification, and if I may ask, was your response of “Not so” directed to G’s first statement: “Meditation and hypnosis can help them…” or was it directed to G’s second statement: “…is the only thing that can help them change.” If the second statement, it seems you could be suggesting that there is something else that could help them…
It only gave me pause for thought because you are usually very clear about what portion of a comment you are objecting to and/or correcting.
Thank-you,
WC
Nothing can help change.
Thank-you for your reply.
Giulia comes to my mind. If she is still angry and complaining about HG ignoring her, she has a serious immaturity/anger problem. She is an ACON, I could see (when the “drama” happened) that she was hungry for attention and validation, and full of anger. But there is a moment where you just need to grow up and out of all those patterns from your past. But I do not know her. I just remember thinking all this while witnessing the “tragedy”.
Lou
And here I thought you held me responsible for being harsh with Guilia and for her exit from the blog.
NarcAngel
I thought she was whiny and overly dramatic.
K
I think that in many instances but I accept there are strong opinions about me also. Together we make a village. (I volunteer for idiot lol).
NarcAngel
Your opinions may be strong but at least they make sense and, if we lived in a village, I would rather live near you than a drama llama any day.
NarcAngel, I know! I did find you a little harsh toward her in one of the threads she participated in (before the tantrum she had about HG ignoring her). But I thought it was rather against her religiosity you were reacting. So I never really judged you bad because of that; I just thought you had been a little harsh with her. Anyway, I did find Giulia’s reaction in that second incident very immature, especially because HG, who had indeed inadvertently ignored her question (which was not very clear indeed), tried to correct the misunderstanding several times. But she just went on having her very childish tantrum. In the end, I felt pity for her because I saw the little angry and hungry ACON taking control of her.
But you are right, NA, I suppose I owe you an apology. I am sorry.
I do not read all comments, so I guess I miss some aspects of readers.
Lou
No, you do not owe me an apolgy and I understand that you dont like me sometimes (giggle-I had to) as that is my nature and what it brings out in people on occasion. It doesnt stop me from still reading and interacting with people of different opinions. I had sensed an issue with Guilia and it was born out eventually, but perhaps she feels differently about how she reacted at that time. We all do at times. Every day is a new day.
LOL, NA, for what is worth, I like you most of the time. I like your strength, your intelligence and your sense of humor.
Yes, I hope Giulia has realized her reaction was childish.
HG, are you going to tell us then who the subject in question is?
Clarence, maybe you had the answer. Would you share it with us?
I guess I can be the gossiper of the village 😉
Lou
I think this is Giulia’s question and I can’t see how she thought it was directed towards HG. I thought she was just voicing her thoughts and feelings.
Giulia
DECEMBER 5, 2017 AT 19:17
This is borderline.”My” narc wants to know everything about me, he often states that. Everything that I think of, people I talk to, places I go.
It isn’t genuine interest of course but I can’t make him talk about him. He keeps a curtain of mystery. He says bits and pieces about his life, thoughts and feelings. Nothing He says is clear and he avoids every questions I ask. The result is a confused twisted situation.
I know it’s designed, everything, but….how can I piss him off talking about me if he lays down this strategy?
And for the “no contact” ….I don’t like the idea of living in fear of him, of having to hide, or lock myself up because He could get to me and hurt me.
I want to live like a person that has the freedom and the ability to deal with anybody in total safety.
He maybe a tough cookie and yes I admit that in these months He was able to score one or two points but I always exposed his game and I rejected him, every time.
And it is getting easier and easier to regain and mantain the control in my life.
I am beginning to think that he can’t hurt me anymore. I can’t prevent him to say stupid things or lies but I can respond with solid boundaries when I need to, or want to.
And I like this feeling of power on my life.
Giulia
DECEMBER 6, 2017 AT 08:30
So, HG, you are blatantly ignoring me. Too bad I don’t know why or I would do the same thing over and over and over and over….just to piss you off, to enjoy it better.
You make the rules and you brake them, guess what: so.do.I.
You are not supposed to act like the narc you are in this blog, but you do.
There goes the trust out the window.
Was there ever any other possible end to this? Maybe no. Now we know for sure. I’ll leave you playing the saviour to the other “millions” of women looking for advice in this place.
HG Tudor
DECEMBER 6, 2017 AT 11:30
What on earth are you going on about? Where am I ignoring you? You have no comments waiting in moderation. You have not asked anything of me which has been ignored. Provide some evidence before making groundless accusations.
https://narcsite.com/2017/12/05/the-wrong-no-contact/comment-page-1/#comments
K, thanks for finding the thread. Now that I have read it again, it is even more clear that Giulia did not formulate her question to HG clearly. But the first time I read her comment, I did see her question.
I really do not want to go back to that discussion. It is really not worth it. I am not defending Giulia (all the opposite) and I am absolutely not blaming HG for not having responded to that question, which was really not clear.
BTW, I found your egg-cellent excellent.
My pleasure, Lou
That was the thread where NarcAngel special-packaged and sent me a Tudor Blow-up Doll, which I now use for role-play when I listen to Hush.
But now that I re-read HG’s comment, I don’t think it is Giulia. As I said, I do not read most of the comments so I guess I missed that “episode” in the life of the village.
I can’t read that stupid lovefraud blog when I click on the link. There’s so many pop up ads! I want to see what all the hype is about. I hate being left out of the know.
There’s nothing to see really.
Some of the comments made me laugh.
MB
You are not missing anything, put energy into what is truth and not someone’s mudslinging and lies.
G your so cute 🙂 exorcism may work to get the evil out, BUT they are missing a Humanity Switch, so they are made this way, unless HG you believe they are into Cults of Black Magic as Why not??? Mine ex Narc is.
Awe G…you optimist. Meditation and hypnosis will “help” them get more in touch with their feelings which would still be envy, jealousy, rage etc. They won’t be able to discover joy. It might help them cope with their disorder but most of them love their construct (facade) and see no need to improve. Just ask one!
G,
I’m not sure hypnosis will even work on a narc. At best, I think he’d just pretend it did. Neither hypnosis or meditation can give a person empathy if they don’t already have it.
Windstorm
I agree, IMO a person would have to be open minded to hypnosis or meditation for it to work and control is to ingrained consciously/subconsciously with a NPD person.
My ex told me hypnosis worked on weak minded people, due to being able to plant seeds so easily.
Twilight
Interesting theory of your ex. My exhusband thinks hypnotism doesn’t work on narcs because their thinking is too straightforward and self-serving. Narcs don’t have hidden layers they want to reveal so they can be better people.
Windstorm
Yes him and I had interesting discussion on people. Sometimes I would just look at him like you cold hearted bastard, then he would ask me how those like Isis should be handled at that point my only response was point made.
I know a narcissist that during a hypnosis section he said that he was brought in a forest.. there was a lake and a woman in the lake invited him to get into the lake. His body was frozen.. when he woke up he was for weeks feeling very sensitive and the first signs of empathy started to appear.
G
He said? Just a reminder here that narcs lie.
Sometimes they can change, but not all the way.
Yeah sometimes they can change. They get worse.
Typically, worsening behavior is just not sustainable living in society.
M Rivera
My comment was intended as humor but also very much my experience and belief. I dont think that worsening behaviour not being sustainable living in society is a concern for narcissists, especially in light of the fact thst most of them are not even aware they have a disorder. People believing that the narcissist in their life could change has usually led them (and often children involved) further down the rabbit hole. Giving victims that hope without extensive and definitive proof can be extremely damaging. I respect that you have given your opinion and that you are entitled to do so. My opinion is that you may have been duped in your experience and that offering that they can change is irresponsible.
Ha, pul-leese.
Typically, worsening behavior is simply not sustainable living in a society.
LMAO!
Or more skilled at manipulation because they learn a little more from each victim.
Hehehe, NA. Love your zingers.
Hello M Rivera,
I do not think they can change the core of NPD per se but it is more an adaptation of behaviours ( readapting several times) in order ti fit in and always in accordance to serve their aims.
These (re)adaptations are made unconsciously or consciously depending on their degree of awareness ( factor that places them within a particular school).I believe the ones that belong to the upper echelons i.ex. the Greaters make these adaptations consciously due to their high degree of awareness.
I agree with you to a great extent, however, this is why I said they don’t really change all the way. But their ability to cultivate empathy and modify some behaviors (grow) is real, albeit limited to a great extent.
M Rivera,
Thank you for your answer.
I believe it is a matter of semantics and I respect your point of view.
For me the word “change “ denotes something more radical/ permanent.
Change :an act or process through which something becomes different.
Modification:an act or process of making partial or minor alterations to (something).
Consequently I see a modification as an adaptation /alteration that is not definitive but rather partial that is why under my perspective the concept of a change is different from yours.
I believe the concept you have of a change under your perspective equals the concept I have of a modification. The two of them differ radically under my perspective.
But I do understand your perspective and as I said is just a question of semantics.
“But their ability to cultivate empathy and modify some behaviors (grow) is real, albeit limited to a great extent.”
Agreed. Rather than “cultivate” empathy I would say that they mirror these empathic behaviours and learn them. Intellectually they understand empathy( some schools of narcissists) but they do not “feel it” but some can learn to respond to an emotional state.
There are four different factors that mark the effectiveness of these learned empathic behaviours that differ from school to school of narcissist
1. the recognition of the emotional state of another person( cognitive empathy)
2.the understanding of that emotional state
3. (the lack )of sense of needing to address it that is compensated by the degree of cognitive function.
4. the degree of cognitive function that allows them to work out, through observation and experience, what the appropriate concerned response should be. The higher degree of cognitive function the more effective( without delay) learned responses to a particular emotional state of another person.
There is a very good post that describes the three strands of empathy that I found very useful. I hope you find it useful as well.
https://narcsite.com/2018/04/21/the-three-strands-of-empathy-4/
You need to respect that people have different opinions (not point of view) based on their own different experiences.
With all due respect M Rivera ,that is exactly what I did.
Different opinions, different point of views and different perspectives are respected.
I see this interaction with you (as I have done with many other bloggers during quite a long time) as a respectful and constructive exchange of points of view, opinions and perspectives .Well, at least it should be seen as such for all:an exchange not an argument or a dispute. But I believe you do not see it as an exchange concluding from your answer.
Then the interaction is not constructive at all.
With all due respect M Rivera ,that is exactly what I did.
Different opinions, different point of views and different perspectives are respected.
I see this interaction with you (as I have done with many other bloggers) just as a respectful and constructive exchange of points of view, opinions and perspectives .Well, at least it should be seen as such for all:an exchange not an argument or a dispute. But I believe you do not see it as an exchange concluding from your answer.
Then the interaction is not constructive at all.
With all due respect M Rivera ,that is exactly what I did.
Different opinions, different point of views and different perspectives are respected.
I see this interaction with you (as I have done with many other bloggers) just as a respectful and constructive exchange of points of view, opinions and perspectives .Well, at least it should be seen as such for all:an exchange not an argument or a dispute. But I believe you do not see it as an exchange concluding from your answer.
If you must always have the last word, SuperXena: then have it, because this is ridiculous.
M Rivera,
For that matter ( duplication of comments) you should contact WordPress not me.
Engaging in non constructive interactions is not of my interest. So with this I rest my case.
No, I think you should just be careful and submit a response ONCE.
Another thing, superxena. Please restrain yourself so that you are not flooding my notifications with multiple copies of the same message. It’s bizarre conduct.
With all due respect M Rivera ,that is exactly what I did.
Different opinions, different point of views and different perspectives are respected.
I see this interaction with you (as I have done with many other bloggers) just as a respectful and constructive exchange of points of view, opinions and perspectives .Well, at least it should be seen as such for all:an exchange not an argument or a dispute. But I believe you do not see it as an exchange concluding from your answer.
M Rivera,
Thank you for your answer.
I believe it is a matter of semantics and I respect your point of view.
For me the word “change “ denotes something more radical/ permanent.
Change :an act or process through which something becomes different.
Modification:an act or process of making partial or minor alterations to (something).
Consequently I see a modification as an adaptation /alteration that is not definitive but rather partial that is why under my perspective the concept of a change is different from yours.
I believe the concept you have of a change under your perspective equals the concept I have of a modification. The two of them differ radically under my perspective.
But I do understand your perspective and as I said is just a question of semantics.
“But their ability to cultivate empathy and modify some behaviors (grow) is real, albeit limited to a great extent.”
Agreed. Rather than “cultivate” empathy I would say that they mirror these empathic behaviours and learn them. Intellectually they understand empathy( some schools of narcissists) but they do not “feel it” but some can learn to respond to an emotional state.
There are four different factors that mark the effectiveness of these learned empathic behaviours that differ from school to school of narcissist
1. the recognition of the emotional state of another person( cognitive empathy)
2.the understanding of that emotional state
3. (the lack )of sense of needing to address it that is compensated by the degree of cognitive function.
4. the degree of cognitive function that allows them to work out, through observation and experience, what the appropriate concerned response should be. The higher degree of cognitive function the more effective( without delay) learned responses to a particular emotional state of another person.
There is a very good post that describes the three strands of empathy that I found very useful. I hope you find it useful as well.
https://narcsite.com/2018/04/21/the-three-strands-of-empathy-4/
You cannot cultivate empathy. You are either born with it or not. Again, can you please cite where you are obtaining your information from?
Pale Horse,
I completely agree with you.
Thanks SuperXena!
You are welcome Pale Horse.
I agree with you too Pale Horse and with you Super Xena. Studies show that the brains of psychopaths have structural abnormalities. Look up James Fallon and psychopaths.
Hello SMH,
Yes, according to my research the psychopath’s brain is wired differently.
It explains their lack of empathy due to brain structure.
As far as for the NPD’s (different from Psychopaths) their lack of empathy is still in question but all the studies point out to be a combination of both genetics and environment during childhood.
SMH:
To clarify: Psychopaths are born psychopaths due to their brain structure regardless of external factors as environment during childhood(and will remain psychopaths).
Psychopaths are born , psychopaths are not made.
The environment affects them ( if they were subject to a toxic,abusive environment during childhood) in certain ways( but not in their psychopathy as such).
For a psychopath, the abuse ( toxic environment as a child) takes away the ability of:
-the installation of certain behavioural controls/ impulse control to learn the value/upsides of delay of gratification.
-the effective an early development of cognitive empathy( since they do not have empathy). If they are in an environment as children where they can’t observe people with empathy to understand what they are feeling they can’t learn and develop their cognitive empathy effectively from early ages being more difficult to develop it later.
In contrast the NPD’s are a result of the combination of genetics AND external factors ( such as abandonment and /or abuse during childhood).
That is to say that NPD’s are to a high extent “made”. You need the combination of both factors: genetic predisposition and external factors.
The common denominator of both psychopaths and NPD’s though is their lack of empathy.
And the research in this topic is very extensive and fascinating.
Adding :
The abuse may also flip some genetic tags/switches that ( some) psychopaths have in their DNA related to violence and aggression making them more susceptible to present aggressive and violent behaviours as adults.
Ha,ha and with this I will stop “bombing” you with information! I think I am just inspired today!
Best wishes
Pale Horse
I agree. One is either born with the emotional contingency strain or not, it can not be cultivated or injected.
You are not going to make me do or admit what you want.
M Rivera
No, I can see that a narcissist has already got you to do and say what they wanted in having you suggest to others that they can change. They really can be quite persuasive. If you did of course provide the details of your involvement (partner, client, patient etc) and how the results were measured it would go a long way in helping to understand and support your assertion that they can change, but you appear unwilling or unable to do that, or open to discussion that does not support your opinion.
So in summary:
You believe narcs can change. Cool. Good lucjk with that.
just adding: their lack of empathy that denotes them is not changeable.It is permanent and therein lies one of the core elements of NPD
Hi superxena…i think the lack of empathy is where the motivation is lacking. Thats a big stumbling block.
Hello Chihuahuamum
“…i think the lack of empathy is where the motivation is lacking. Thats a big stumbling block.”
You made me think about that one. I do not believe it is a question of lack of motivation because:
– the ones that are not aware of their condition are not aware of the fact that they are devoid of empathy. They think that they are acting as “ normal” so they do not even think on making modifications. Their perspective is the only one valid( for them).
-the ones that are aware of their condition are usually the ones who have a high cognitive function . They can make the needed adaptations ( by learned behaviours through observation and experience) to fit in effectively and at the same time serving their aims.
I don’t know, SuperXena. Mine would say that he did not understand other people’s emotions, that he was not that complex himself, and that he was ‘dumb’ about it. So he was clearly at least partly cognitively aware. But he did not modify his behavior. He is capable of lots of things including having a family and a good job because he’s very bright, energetic, sporty, etc. Maybe that is what you mean. But I would see comments people would make to him and about him on social media (he hardly ever responded). They weren’t mean but they did reflect on his lack of depth. For instance, someone once wrote ‘still waters run deep,’ thinking there was more to him than there was at a time when he was trying to patch things up with IPPS (patched ’em up, came back to me, patched ’em up, came back to me etc). And I’m like nope, nope, nope. He would even admit to his own shallowness…
Hello Smh,
I understand what you mean . I was referring about cognitive functioning and not cognitive empathy.
If you remember the post about the Three strands of empathy there are narcissists that recognise the emotional state of others( cognitive empathy) ,some can even understand this emotional state of others but they lack the sense of need of addressing it and the skills to responding to it. Just the ones that have high cognitive functioning can learn (through observation and experience) to respond to those emotional states.
So, the narcissists that are not aware of their NPD are the ones that have low cognitive functioning.I believe (if I understand correctly ) that they can recognise and some even can understand the emotions of others but since they do not have the need of addressing them nor the cognitive functioning to learn these responses they are not effective( as i.ex.the Greter) in learning the adequate responses .
Some may feel they are somehow different from others but I guess there are just a few that are completely aware of their NPD
I hope it makes sense….
Best wishes
Makes sense, SuperX. He is not aware of his NPD but I thought cognitive empathy was an intellectual kind of empathy, where you sort of know what it is and that you are supposed to have it, but you don’t really know how to do it. That’s what my mid range narc is like and he has very high cognitive functioning (leser and mid do not mean they are not as intellectual as a greater – just that they are less aware and operate more by instinct than by plan).
Emotional empathy is something else – where you can feel someone’s subjective state. That is what all narcs lack, though some can pretend through cognitive empathy. Some of us had this discussion on another thread. I wish there was a way of searching through the comments on the blog posts but as far as I know, there is not. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Hello SMH,
Thank you for your answer. Yes, there is a lot of debate.
I have done some research and if I understand correctly, cognitive empathy has to do with the intellect but it is just a part of the cognitive functions( the cognitive functions -sometimes known as mental functions) are defined as different ways of perceiving and judging. They are defined as “thinking”, “feeling”, “sensation” and “intuition”.
Extraversion: An attitude defining the self in accordance to the standard of the external world.
Introversion: An attitude defining the outer world in accordance to the standard of the self.
INtuition: Abstract perception of the environment.
Sensing: Concrete perception of the environment.
Thinking: Impersonal assessment.
Feeling: Person-centered assessment.
“Carl Jung.Theories of Psychological types.”
“Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another’s emotional state.” Wikipedia
All(empaths and NPDs) can recognise an emotional state of others but concerning the narcissists not all can understand it( depending on the school).
None of the schools of narcissists has the sense of addressing it but the high echelons that can recognise and understand it, even though they do not have the sense of need of addressing it, they can learn ( by observation and experience) the suitable response to a particular emotional state.
We empaths have cognitive empathy( we recognise it),we have also empathy concern because apart from recognising and understanding the emotional state of others we feel a need to address that emotional state and we can show the appropriate concern for others and we can address it( act on it : comforting, helping etc.)
I hope it makes sense. I am still learning!
Best wishes
Hello SMH,
I found a good definition( according to me) of what is cognitive functioning :
“ Cognitive functioning is the intellectual activity ( how the mind operates)that includes mental processes, such as, attention, processing speed, learning and memory, executive function, verbal fluency, and working memory.”
*Source: González-Ortega, M.Martínez-Cengotitabengoa, A.González Pinto
Department of Psychiatry, University Hospital of Alava-Santiago, CIBERSAM, Vitoria, Spain
**
University of the Basque Country, Vitoria, Spain
†
National Distance Education University (UNED)-Centro Asociado de Vitoria, Vitoria, Spain
Cognition and intelligence are related and intertwined, but not the same thing. Intelligence encompasses cognition. Cognition is the method by which people assimilate and integrate knowledge, while intelligence is both the assimilation of knowledge as well as the ability to apply such knowledge.
I believe this clarifies the concepts a little bit more. Hopefully!
Hi SuperXena, Yes. I think I misread what you initially wrote. I thought you wrote cognitive empathy rather than cognitive functioning. Then I didn’t have a chance to go back and correct myself. Thank you for all of that information.
Hello SMH!
Thank you for your answer and you are welcome.
I believe this one did not come through:
SMH:
To clarify: Psychopaths are born psychopaths due to their brain structure regardless of external factors as environment during childhood(and will remain psychopaths).
Psychopaths are born , psychopaths are not made.
The environment affects them ( if they were subject to a toxic,abusive environment during childhood) in certain ways( but not in their psychopathy as such).
For a psychopath, the abuse ( toxic environment as a child) takes away the ability of:
-the installation of certain behavioural controls/ impulse control to learn the value/upsides of delay of gratification.
-the effective an early development of cognitive empathy( since they do not have empathy). If they are in an environment as children where they can’t observe people with empathy to understand what they are feeling they can’t learn and develop their cognitive empathy effectively from early ages being more difficult to develop it later.
In contrast the NPD’s are a result of the combination of genetics AND external factors ( such as abandonment and /or abuse during childhood).
That is to say that NPD’s are to a high extent “made”. You need the combination of both factors: genetic predisposition and external factors.
The common denominator of both psychopaths and NPD’s though is their lack of empathy.
And the research in this topic is very extensive and fascinating.
SMH
You can search the comments through Google, just put narcsite in the search bar with a few words from the comment and you should be able to pull up the thread.
Ah that’s great to know, K. Thanks for the tip. I hope no one ever gets a hold of my laptop. I will have to burn it!
My pleasure, SMH.
K! Did you just give away your librarian search technique? I’ve been thinking you have the most photogenic brain on the planet! lol
I am sure K’s brain is aesthetically pleasing Clarece but I think you meant photographic memory!
Ha ha ha…my brain is probably very beautiful.
Agreed, HG is trying to gaslight me. I know of what I speak!
(Jk) 😂
Pffftttt
Bahahahahaha
K
Im sure you do have a beautiful brain, although I’m not sure we’re prepared for the following at the club:
Hey baby, I’ve been watchin you shake that delicious gelatinous mass all over the dance floor and I dig the way your frontal lobe fills out that weave. I bet you got a real pretty name like Cerebellum. Whaddya say we go to my place where I’ll stroke that beautiful cranium, climb that brainstem and shake up that hippocampus all night long.
I’d probably do him for originality and the ability to make me laugh.
NarcAngel
I would love it someone stroked my cranium and shook my hippocampus all night long. After his axon connected to my dendrite, I would be smyelin myself to sleep.
Oh shit, I totally missed that and I can’t blame Auto-correct. Just Clarece having a blonde moment on a Monday! 😊
Clarece
Ha ha ha…I auto-corrected it and didn’t realize it was photogenic until I read HG’s comment. Then I thought: Shit, I missed that. Followed quickly by: Damn straight, I have a beautiful mind! (toot toot)
Yes, you totally come out ahead with a beautiful mind! And, I am a ditz! Lol
You’re so pedantic, HG!
I think you mean accurate
Kidding!
SMH
Ha ha ha….Well, HG did write that he was sure my brain was aesthetically pleasing so I am leaning towards accurate.
Clarece
Ha ha ha…thanks for the laugh. I wish I had a photographic memory, however, I just google search the comments. It is easy enough and very helpful when you want to double check on something you read but didn’t make a note of.
So the trick is to include “narcsite” in the search next to what I remember from a comment and poof, it should pop up?
Clarece
yes, however, sometimes you have to fiddle with the words and include whoever wrote the comment: NarcAngel, Twilight, WS, DUTG, etc.
Hello Smh,
I understand what you mean . I was referring about cognitive functioning and not cognitive empathy.
If you remember the post about the Three strands of empathy there are narcissists that recognise the emotional state of others( cognitive empathy) ,some can even understand this emotional state of others but they lack the sense of need of addressing it and the skills to responding to it. Just the ones that have high cognitive functioning can learn (through observation and experience) to respond to those emotional states.
So, the narcissists that are not aware of their NPD are the ones that have low cognitive functioning.I believe (if I understand correctly ) that they can recognise and some even can understand the emotions of others but since they do not have the need of addressing them nor the cognitive functioning to learn these responses they are not effective( as i.ex.the Greter) in learning the adequate responses .
Some may feel they are somehow different from others but I guess there are just a few that are completely aware of their NPD
I hope it makes sense….
Best wishes
Hello Chihuahuamum
“…i think the lack of empathy is where the motivation is lacking. Thats a big stumbling block.”
You made me think about that one. I do not believe it is a question of lack of motivation because:
– the ones that are not aware of their condition are not aware of the fact that they are devoid of empathy. They think that they are acting as “ normal” so they do not even think on making modifications. Their perspective is the only one valid( for them).
-the ones that are aware of their condition are usually the ones who have a high cognitive function . They can make the needed adaptations ( by learned behaviours through observation and experience) to fit in effectively and at the same time serving their aims.
Hi superxena…ty for your reply. I agree with lesser and mids they arent aware of what they are and see it as everyone elses issue not theirs.
Greaters id like to think would adopt your view but i think their number one rule is themselves so like you said if it suits their needs and will benefit them then there is motivation but if it doesnt and its purely for the sake of changing destructive behaviours the fact they dont care about the effect it has on others diminishes that motivation to change. I really think the lack of empathy is the biggest hurdle for change. They have a different perspective and one that doesnt involve empathy or caring about anyone else.
Hello Chihuahuamum,
I completely agree with you regarding that their lack of empathy makes them have a perspective completely different from ours ( those with empathy).
I am afraid I do not follow you completely concerning their motivation to change connected to their lack of empathy.
This lack of empathy is not a hurdle for all narcissists to fit in. The ones that have effective learned behaviours to respond to the emotional states of others ( those with high cognitive functioning);can fit in more effectively by adapting /modifying their behaviours to less destructive or abusive and more prosocial behaviours.So if they are and can be more effective in fitting in why would they want to “change”?
Further more, they CANNOT have a permanent core change in regards empathy because they genetically do not have it and cannot be “injected “ with empathy.
That is to say :I am speaking mostly about modification and adaptation of learned behaviours through observation and experience that gives them the skills to fit in. I see these learned responses concerning empathy as temporal and shifting depending on their aims and purpose not as a permanent or radical change in the core of NPD .
Shortly: I can see adaptations in their modus operandi but those adaptations can’t change the core of NPD( lack of real empathy) . Those adaptations cannot lead to a permanent change that is to say : they cannot provide / inject them with real empathy.
I believe we are talking about two different things but I do appreciate your comments. Still learning!
Best wishes.
Hello Chihuahuamum,
I completely agree with you regarding that their lack of empathy makes them have a perspective completely different from ours ( those with empathy).
I am afraid I do not follow you completely concerning their motivation to change connected to their lack of empathy.
This lack of empathy is not a hurdle for all narcissists to fit in. The ones that have effective learned behaviours to respond to the emotional states of others ( those with high cognitive functioning);can fit in more effectively by adapting /modifying their behaviours to less destructive or abusive and more prosocial behaviours.So if they are and can be more effective in fitting in why would they want to “change”?
Further more, they CANNOT have a permanent core change in regards empathy because they genetically do not have it and cannot be “injected “ with empathy.
That is to say :I am speaking mostly about modification and adaptation of learned behaviours through observation and experience that gives them the skills to fit in. I see these learned responses concerning empathy as temporal and shifting depending on their aims and purpose not as a permanent or radical change in the core of NPD .
Shortly: I can see adaptations in their modus operandi but those adaptations can’t change the core of NPD( lack of real empathy) . Those adaptations cannot lead to a permanent change that is to say : they cannot provide / inject them with real empathy.
I believe we are talking about two different things but I do appreciate your comments. Still learning!
Best wishes.
Chihuahuamum,
I agree. It is the empathy we have for others that makes destruction seem bad to us. So no narcs, no matter how smart, will feel a reason to change destructive behaviors unless they see a way it will benefit them.
And the lessers and midrangers often don’t even believe that their behavior is really destructive. How can they realize that they’re causing emotional destruction when they can’t even feel those emotions. They just think youre lying or exaggerating or trying to trick them when you point out the devastating effects of their behavior.
Hello Chihuahuamum,
Second answer:
Motivation or need to “change”/modify behaviours?
1. The ones that are not aware ( due to lack of high cognitive functioning ) cannot modify something that they are not aware of. How can they modify something they do no even know about and will never be aware of ?
2. The ones that are aware( because of their high cognitive functioning) do modify behaviours when is needed to fit in . If they need to adapt to less destructive,abusive and more prosocial behaviours in order to more effectively fit in to achieve their aims, they will do it because they can if they have the skills to do it .Perhaps not all can achieve this but some will be able to do that.
So some do modify behaviours because they NEED to not because they WANT to . But they can’t change the core of their “”disorder”.
I believe we empaths see and analyse it in terms of “motivation to change” because we see it from our perspective. They do not perceive it that way.
Hello Chihuahuamum,
First answer( I think it did not get through yesterday):
I completely agree with you regarding that their lack of empathy makes them have a perspective completely different from ours ( those with empathy).
I am afraid I do not follow you completely concerning their motivation to change connected to their lack of empathy.
This lack of empathy is not a hurdle for all narcissists to fit in. The ones that have effective learned behaviours to respond to the emotional states of others ( those with high cognitive functioning);can fit in more effectively by adapting /modifying their behaviours to less destructive or abusive and more prosocial behaviours.
But they cannot have a permanent core change in regards empathy because they genetically do not have it and cannot be “injected “ with empathy.
That is to say :I am speaking mostly about modification and adaptation of learned behaviours through observation and experience that gives them the skills to fit in. I see these learned responses concerning empathy as temporal and shifting depending on their aims and purpose not as a permanent or radical change in the core of NPD .
Shortly: I can see adaptations in their modus operandi but those adaptations can’t change the core of NPD( lack of real empathy) . Those adaptations cannot lead to a permanent change that is to say : they cannot provide / inject them with real empathy.
I believe we are talking about two different things but I do appreciate your comments. Still learning!
Best wishes.
Let’s not forget that narcissists are optimally suited for success in contemporary Western capitalist and consumerist culture, where intimate partners and friends are easily replaceable, where whether family nor the immediate community are essential for an individual’s survival.
Why would a narcissist ever want to change under these circumstances? I personally very much appreciate that my narcissistic traits have come to the fore… I’m enjoying life so much more now that it’s more about me.
Accurate
Morning Sun
Agreed. If people would embrace their narcissistic traits instead of fearing them, I believe they would find the world much easier to navigate and better protect themselves while still finding life enjoyable as you have. In fact given the climate you’ve described, its necessary. It is not the case for an empath that if you exercise them that you will become a narcissist any more than if you lift light weights you will become Ms Olympia lol. Great to hear you are enjoying life.
Hello MorningSun,
-“Let’s not forget that narcissists are optimally suited for success in ….”
I would rather use the word effectiveness than success( the latter is not as neutral as the former since it contains – for me -an undertone of moral values:good vs bad)
What I mean is that what may be regarded as successful for some is not regarded as such for others.That depends from which perspective you are looking it from.
For the narcissist (NPD) success equals effectiveness: that is to say regardless if it is a romantic, social or professional relationship they are successful if they accomplish their aims: high returns on their investment . They always function under the principle of return on investment.
Empaths have the concept of being successful( i ex.in a romantic relationship )completely different from the NPD’s. And that concept varies through time extensively among the non narcissists in general influenced by external factors.
Yes, some of the schools of narcissists ( but not all) are highly effective on being able to make (re)adaptations and at the speed they need to fit in in the society they are immerse in. So those are effective both in fitting in and accomplishing their aims.
As a matter of fact thinking about the evolutionary chain, I believe that just the narcissists that are skilled enough to readapt effectively to changes in their environment are the ones that will subsist.
-“….in contemporary Western capitalist and consumerist culture…”
Have you wondered who is dictating the norms you mentioned ? :
intimate partners and friends are easily replaceable, family and the immediate community not essential for an individual’s survival?
There are still some groups who have other perspectives ,norms and moral values than the ones you mentioned.
The norms, values and morality of the society change through time depending on who is the prevailing group dictating them.
Who is the prevailing group in the Western Society now?
– “I personally very much appreciate that my narcissistic traits have come to the fore… I’m enjoying life so much more now that it’s more about me.”
I understand what you mean.
I regard my narcissistic traits as an asset as much as my empathic traits.
Having narcissistic traits is not the same as having full blown NPD. There is a big difference.
I believe that the combination of both ( empathic and narcissistic traits)is the real asset. This combination makes one enjoy life even more because there is always the potential to learn how to control ones emotions: we then have the two worlds naturally in us. We do not have to mirror or imitate . Both worlds exist in us ..that is what I call an excellent platform for freedom and ….success (and this time I am adding a moral value of that being good) under my perspective.
So, no they do not need to “change”( and for that matter they can’t) but they do need to modify and readapt in order to survive.
Best wishes
Superxena
I agree with you.
I also agree with you on walking both worlds we gain a freedom,
This (re)adaptations explains as well their erratic behaviour shifting between one way of behaving to another completely different or opposite ( these shifts between sometimes completely opposite behaviours may occur quite quickly).But it is not a permanent change( or mutation) but rather a temporal (re)adaptation to fit in ( for survival).
Unless of course in future generations it occurs a mutation as a permanent alteration of certain genetic elements such as empathy but that is completely out of my field of knowledge…As far as I am concerned these (re)adaptations are just behavioural and not structural
Hello M Rivera,
I understand that there are some instances when we can come to believe that change is possible because it appears to be genuine. This can happen when the narcissist’s own needs *accidentally* match their new behaviour.
I have witnessed this with a new born child. The once cold, distant, angry and frustrated narcissist becomes an empathetic, caring, loving parent. The narcissist will speak about their child to anyone who will listen, will publish dozens of photos every week and seems to feel genuine love for their child. Actually, it is more about *façade management* and the *positive fuel* the narcissist receives from others who value good parenting. I have also noticed that MRNs do it automatically so their new personality looks genuine. People want to be polite and will not tell the narcissist to please stop bombarding them with photos, texts and all kinds of details every week. Instead, they will give the narcissist positive feedback (fuel). Also, the narcissist becomes the centre of attention.
What people do not understand is that if there was no payoff, the narcissist would not do it.
EB
I completely agree. You can often spot a narc parent/grandparent by the over the top behavior they have with a child. They can seem to be very loving and caring. They are inordinately proud of the child, gush too much about trivial things and often let the child get away with, and even encourage, unacceptable behavior in public. These narcs are using the child to garner fuel from others. My father was one of these.
Of course there are many other narcs who get their fuel by exerting power and control over their children. They are dismissive of the child’s accomplishments due to jealousy, appear always disappointed and are often physically abusive.
In my opinion, these narcs are not nearly as intelligent or confident. While they do get negative fuel from the child, they miss out on the mix of both positive and negative fuel from manipulating other adults outside the home, which they could have had along with a constant flow of positive fuel from the child.
Good points EB.