The Wrong No Contact


No Contact.

This is what anybody who has been a victim of our kind must achieve. Whether that status of victim stems from being a friend to a narcissist where you are taken for granted, used when the narcissist needs a lift or someone to moan to or whether it is the beaten down and trampled Intimate Partner Primary Source who was wife, boyfriend or partner has endured and suffered extensive abuse, no contact is the antidote.

Building that robust and effective wall of no contact can be difficult. It is time consuming, requires rigour and perseverance and not only are you trying to repel the advances of the narcissist who is trying to breach your no contact regime, you also have to fight against yourself and your emotional thinking which is trying to make you breach no contact as well. Indeed, it is often your emotional thinking which proves to be the harder enemy to conquer and it is not a one-off battle. Your emotional thinking, because of who you are and the emotional infection your engagement with the narcissist has caused, means that this is an ongoing battle which requires your repeated vigilance. Through the application of understanding and building your Logic Defences, the task does become easier, but it is not one which goes away. Like any wall, it must be checked, maintained and patrolled, otherwise holes and breaches occur and the narcissist will impact on you once again.

Time and time again I see people who think they have put in place no contact and they have not. Sometimes it almost beggars belief that the victim thinks they have established no contact – it is obvious they have not. In other instances you could be forgiven (if forgiveness was something I gave) for thinking you have implemented no contact but in actual fact you have not. There are many instances where people think they have instigated no contact and all they have done is embark on The Wrong No Contact. Here are just a few of the many ways in which you might be getting no contact wrong and the risks that come with this.

  1. Looking At Social Media

Just because the narcissist does not explicitly know you have looked at his or her social media does not mean this is no contact. Indeed, we rely on you doing so and expect you to look at our social media, that is why in certain instances you are not blocked from looking at our Facebook account, Twitter feed, Instagram and so forth. We want you to look at it. Just because you are not interacting directly with us, just because you are not commenting and we are not replying, just because you are not adding likes – this is not no contact. If you are looking at our social media you are likely to see indirect jibes made about you, Relationship Bulletins about your replacement, reminders of the golden period and even direct attacks against you. This will result in :-

  • a risk you will be upset, hurt, angry
  • the maintenance of the emotional infection because you are thinking about us
  • a surge of emotional thinking which may cause you to contact us to attack us for our barbed comments towards you, to seek answers when you are upset about the reminder of an anniversary or similar
  • stopping you from moving forward

2. Not Blocking Our Number

You may think that it will be the first thing you will do when you commence no contact. You block our number from your telephone and mobile phone so that we cannot call or text you from the relevant number. Of course we may get around this by using a different device therefore that is why you are better served by changing your telephone numbers, but if you do not change the numbers then you ought to block the new number of ours which appears and keep doing so, like a matador dodging the on rushing bull each time to avoid harm.

Nevertheless, the number of occasions I see people who claim they are no contact but they have not blocked our number is higher than you might think. These people think that if they, as victim, do not contact us, then that is no contact. No, it is not. Of course, those people who do not block the number are giving in to their emotional thinking because they WANT the narcissist to contact them.

If you do not block our number, this is not no contact. One of the easiest hoovers for us to perform is to text you. It uses no effort, it brings with it a reduced consequence of wounding (say compared to ringing you on the telephone or seeing you in person) and allows the drawing of fuel. If you do not block our number, you are lowering the hoover bar to such a low level that hoovers are more or less inevitable.

The emotional thinking of victims tells them things such as :-

  • It is over, there was a ‘final discard’ he will never contact me anyway;
  • If she does text me, I won’t reply and that will wound her, so actually I am ‘winning’;
  • There might be an emergency and therefore I cannot block him

Utter rubbish.

There is no such thing as a final discard. We will contact you, subject to the Hoover Trigger being activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria being met. If you do not block us, this is going to happen. You will be hoovered.

If you allow a text through, you are maintaining the emotional infection and you will suffer a surge in emotional thinking which may very well result in you responding and before you know it, you are not only providing fuel but you are being drawn back into the Formal Relationship. Months later you will ask ‘how the hell did that happen?’ Every text which arrives adds more and more to your emotional thinking until such time that you can no longer resist. Oh, I hear your protestations that you can resist but i have witnessed such resolve melt away. If you are playing Russian roulette and pull the trigger once and do not blow your brains out, you have survived. Pick the gun up again and again and again and eventually you will kill yourself. This is the similar effect of repeatedly engaging with us by allowing those texts through – you WILL succumb.

So what if there is an emergency? I know you are kind, decent and honest but we are no longer your concern in that respect. You need to remind yourself that you have no obligation towards us (of course our perspective will make us tell you differently) and therefore that False Suicide Power Play Hoover is not something you have to deal with. If you co-parent establish a mechanism whereby the narcissist e-mails routine communication to you. You tell the narcissist in advance that you will check the e-mails once a week at a set time  and never deviate from this. This way you cater for communication regarding the children but only expose yourself once a week to potential hoovers. When the narcissist realises this is being done, see how the hoover attempts diminish. If you need a mechanism for emergency communication, tell the narcissist to contact a third party who will then contact you. Use this gate keeper.

3. Keeping our telephone number

You may say that you will not use it and therefore think that this is no contact, but once again, this is not no contact. With our number sat in your phone, even if you have changed the description to ‘Arsehole Number One’ , ‘Shit 4 Brains’ or ‘Narcopath’ you are creating problems :-

  • You see the name and number and you are then reminding yourself of us and thus this is a form of Ever Presence ;
  • You are leaving open a gateway. There will be an occasion when your emotional thinking surges and causes you to try to contact us. If our number if there you will use it and message us or ring us. If there is no number, you cannot call us.

Do not come up with the nonsense of ‘I have memorised the number so I will remember it anyway so what difference does it make if I keep the number in my phone?’ Bollocks. Your memory is fallible and over time if you have not used our number, you will eventually forget it altogether or at least get some numbers mixed up. If it is still in your directory, you will ring it.

Delete that number. Do it and do it immediately.

4. Talking to friends and family about us

You may think that because you are not engaging with us directly then this must mean no contact is in place. It is not in place if you continue to talk about us to your friends and your family. This is causing you to engage with us, albeit indirectly. All this does is result in :-

  • You continuing to think about us with the consequential impact on your emotions;
  • The continued feeding of the emotional infection which you should be purging, not feeding ;
  • Allowing your emotional thinking to surge with the risk this may control you once again and you end up contacting us or succumbing to a direct hoover with all that follows from that

It is of course inevitable that you will discuss the situation with your family and friends especially when you do not understand what you are dealing with. However, once you realise you are dealing with a narcissist then there does not need to be any more discussion. If you are not sure whether the person is, do not discuss it with your family and friends, they invariably have no idea whether the person is or not, they have no expertise. Indeed, they may well be revelling in joining in the ‘narc hating’ sessions which are actually not helping you at all. Alternatively, they may well be sick of hearing you going on about him or her and want you to shut up, but tolerate it out of a sense of loyalty. If you are unsure, ask me and I will give it to you straight, one way or the other.

Once you know, you go.

No more debating it with your best friend. No more mulling it over with your football mates after the game in the pub. No more ‘ifs and buts’ discussions with your parents. This person is a narcissist and you are not to dedicate any time to discussing this person. If you have to discuss an arrangement concerning the narcissist because they are collecting the children from your parents, then that is allowable but keep it to that. You do not need to tell people what the narcissist did or said. All you are doing is repeating this person is a narcissist, you already know this, they already know this, so why keep going on about it?

You do it because your emotional thinking wants you to do so. It wants you poring over the latest misbehaviour because it craves the horrified gasps from your friends or looks of disapproval from your mother. You do not need these responses.

Do not talk about us. Explain to your friends you do not want the narcissist spoken about to you. If they try to do so, politely explain again that this person means nothing to you anymore and therefore there is no need to talk about them.

5. Watching what we are doing

You may make the intelligence agencies proud of your covert observation of us as you watch where we go, who we are with and what we are doing. You do not need to do this. Again, once you know what we are, get out and stay out. Yes, I understand it is so tempting to know what we are up to, are we seeing someone else, what does he or she look like, why are we going to these places but all you are doing is succumbing to your emotional thinking which is conning you into maintaining a link with us.

Your emotional thinking will tell you that it is permissible to engage in this behaviour because you are not contacting us directly, you are merely observing. These are examples of your emotional thinking conning you into thinking this stalking and observation is a good idea

  • You are gathering evidence to tell other people what we are doing to confirm what you have told them previously (you do not need to – you know what we are, that is all you need, you do not have to persuade other people)
  • You are gathering evidence for a court case (you do not have to do it – hire somebody to do this or if you cannot afford to do that, have a friend or family member do it – also question whether you really need to this evidence)
  • You want to know who the narcissist is seeing so you can warn this person about us (part of your decent nature but unnecessary – you owe the new person no such obligation to warn then and in any event it is unlikely you will be believed because of the smearing we will have done against you)
  • You just need to know for your own piece of mind (utter nonsense, you do not need to know at all)

Recognise these sleights of mind by your emotional thinking and act on them.

If you keep watching us, all you are doing is

  • Creating harmful emotions that impact on you
  • Keeping the emotional infection alive and growing
  • Causing your emotional thinking to surge so you contact us directly
  • Being spotted by us and suffering a hoover (benign or malign)
  • Being spotted by us and being on the end of a restraining order or similar for harassment etc

These are just five examples of The Wrong No Contact. There are many more. Be alert for them, recognise them and understand why you are not implementing no contact. Stop letting your emotional thinking con you.

Once you know, you go.

Get out, stay out.

426 thoughts on “The Wrong No Contact

  1. Iris says:

    Although I found your remark about Jesus very funny HG, I also found it rather disrespectful towards Giulia.

    I was always told that you should argue with arguments instead of making fun of somebody’s believes. That isn’t very classy i.m.h.o.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      On the contrary, I was reinforcing his miracle working powers by attesting to them. In my cellar.

      So, apparently it wasn’t classy but you laughed all the same?

      1. Iris says:

        Nope. you made a disrespectful remark. It was a cheap shot and you know it.

        You can find a remark witty and even cleverly found and therefore funny, but it can be inappropriate at the same time, especially as you are the boss here and you were marginalizing her.

        That is a discussion trick that is often used by people: make fun of a persons believes and you minimize the point they are trying to make about something else.

        But I don’t have to explain this to you, you probably know all the tricks in the book by now.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Nonsense. An unwarranted attack was made (which you are oddly silent about). I dealt with that.

          I then responded to a comment made by NA and with humour.

          So I am apparently disrespectful but you are not disrespectful for finding my apparent disrespect amusing. So much for your empathy for the person whose beliefs I apparently disrespected.

  2. Maeven Belle says:

    Does a Former IPPS in the devaluation tier ever get replaced with someone else, particularly if there are shared children with the N? My ex and I have been divorced 2 1/2 years – its been brutal because we share small children and they play sports so I have to be in his presence on a weekly basis, sometimes multiple times a week. I left him, rather swiftly and abruptly, upon realizing the extent of the dysfunction (with the help of others).

    He’s already re-married to a woman 15 years his junior (she was their daycare instructor while we were married) and she’s now pregnant (of course) with their first child. He’s forcing our children to call her Mommy – going so far as to not permit the new wife to answer the children if they refer to her as anything but Mommy. (this was one of the things he threatened me with during the split — “Do you want your kids to have a new mommy?”) Obviously this is terribly hurtful to me but I have not reacted (to him) other than to express to my children that I do not agree with what they are doing and that they will understand more fully when they are older.

    Am I forever consigned to this position based upon the fact that I can not go full no-contact, or do you think he will eventually lose interest if I follow the above suggestions?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Maeven, yes they do and you already have been. You are the former IPPS and he has a new IPPS through the person he has married.
      I think what you are actually asking is “Will I as the mother of my children be replaced in the eyes of the narcissist as their mother?” – yes, but that is just part of the manipulation. You will not be replaced in the eyes of others and your children.

  3. Tappan Zee says:

    I think that people who are trying to find a silver lining in your actions are still very much in denial about the true nature of narcissists…

    ^ really @our core it seems; denial, utter refusal to see things as they are and people for what they present. we want the lining to be all pretty and whatnot. it is not. what is that? i know “simply” it is our ET. but what is our incessant need to deny reality? prove something is a way when in all sane perspectives, it is not. i am guessing it stems from childhood trauma. we want to close our eyes and scream nanner nanner this is not real. this is not happening. this is not true. because the pain of truth, well hurts. it is painful.

    1. Narc Angel says:

      Tappan Zee

      Perhaps our egos are as large as theirs?

    2. Iris says:

      Yep Trappan Zee we even deny our denial ;-).

      I’m amazed though by the amount of traumabonding I see on this website with regards to HG.

      A narc is a narc is a narc. Even a helpful one.

  4. Iris says:

    Such a funny conversation between HG and “his girls”!

    I really hope MLA will resist the temptation to bow to HG’s wishes and won’t answer his persistent questions about the way she was hoovered ;-).

    Is this kind of ignoring you a (slight) narcissistic injury HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. But ignoring my questions which are design to assist your understanding is injurious to your progress.

      1. Iris says:

        I understand HG. The fact that it’s possible to hoover someone means that you haven’t gone no contact. He found the chink in her armor and used it. Or maybe she left it there on purpose, waiting for him to find it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct Iris, I am pleased you have identified this.

    2. HG Tudors # 1 fan says:

      1. That is a stupid idea
      2. We are here to learn & heal.
      3. MLA is a tertiary source, which means,
      HG would gain no fuel, nor wounding

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Easy tiger, it was a reasonable question re whether it might wound me.

      2. Iris says:

        1. No it’s not. A narc can be wounded by something as small as an eyeroll and they hate being ignored so my question is completely valid;
        2. Agreed. Who says we aren’t?
        3. This is not true, even a bell boy who is just passing by can give a narc some fuel. Everbody can. And they can also take it away or wound him.

  5. ava101 says:

    HG? If you decide not to keep an appointment / date, but want to see that woman again at another time, but you don’t want her to have a say in this, but just do as you wish, and don’t want to have to explain yourself – would you just send a text message or e-mail instead of calling? Or would you call nonetheless to hear the reaction? (When fuel is not why you cancel but you simply want to do something else).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Assuming this is occurring in the seduction period I would call the person, out of courtesy and explain why the appointment cannot be kept and then re-arrange.

      1. ava101 says:

        Thank you.

  6. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,

    We needed this. This is crucial and an absolute must.

    A thousand thank-you’s for this “piece of gold” advice

    This, along with all your magnificant work, deserves a standing ovation 👏

  7. Carolyn says:

    Dear HG, why some narcs hoover indirectly before making a direct contact? I mean, posts on their public social media – everybody see it but only victim knows what does it mean. Is it testing the waters? My narc always goes the same cycle after disengaging – direct contact after weeks of playing indirect games. Is it typical for every narc or just for a specific school?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It will gain Thought Fuel and is also done to test the waters to see what reaction (if any) is forthcoming to avoid the risk of wounding from being ignored if a direct approach is made. It also utilises good old plausible deniability “I didn’t post anything to do with you, you are reading too much into things, as you always do. You’re nuts!”

  8. Mrs Linton says:

    I also think that people who you talk about these things twholat pretending to care can be gossip mongers who can really enjoy watching you hurt. I wanted my last but one Narc to be the father of my children except it didn’t happen. I was in my late thirties and desperate for a family which made it all the more difficult. It was a very painful and abusive relationship and I remember a woman who also worked with us just couldn’t get enough of all the hideous detail and heart break. Even though I avoided him at work as best I could she constantly brought him up looking for every reaction. Look out for your so called friends, and remember there are always people who hold up the motorway because they like to have a long hard look at the tragic car wreck.

  9. Jenna says:


    This article is very timely for me. I will imagine in my heart that u posted it for me and that u care abt me. Though i know u don’t care.
    I have failed no contact. I knew i breached # 2 as of recent, but i see that i have breached # 3 as well. I have read other comments, and u said it’s ok to talk abt the narc here for therapeutic reasons. So thankfully, i did not breach #4.

    1. Iris says:

      Jenna, don’t beat yourself up, you can also see it as studying a foreign tribe or an exotic bug.

      Once I knew about narcissism I saw it everywhere: on TV, in films, in books, at work etc. and I suddenly recognized all of their funny games.

      In stead of feeling anxious and powerless I’m now playing narc bingo with them. Try it, your card will be full before you know it ;-).

      1. Jenna says:


        Ty for reaching out to me. It means alot to me.

  10. Iris says:

    For everyone who feels guilty after going no contact (NC), especially with your family:

    I read somewhere that you can read “NC” as “Natural Consequence”, i.e. they brought it upon themselves.

    This always helps me a lot when I feel sorry for my mother and sister.

  11. Viva says:

    “Cooling off the mark” Don’t say a word. Stay silent. Lose your voice. Once you know the con and the con game tactics, you decide whether to fall for the tactics or not. Or get control of your own emotions toward someone who only pretended that the relationship was about mutual love. The silent treatment and hoover are just part of a number of tactics to keep you from speaking up, by either ingratiation or scare tactics. What is needed—better sense of what tactics are used, which HG is informative and control of F.R.E.E. Once the hoovers start after “once you know, you go”, you then know you need to be careful with what you decide to say or when to respond to the narcissist. But, there may be times that you need to take a stand and speak, because there is a point that you are actually free and don’t care what hurts or hoovers are tried on you. The tactics stop working, once you know the tactics. Once you know, you spot the tactic during a hoover and without emotion mention how the tactic makes no sense now. Read about fallacy logic. These are illogical/fallacies, another narcissist tactic.

  12. Sunshine says:

    Hmmmmm, and what if you have young children with your narc? Sadly, channels of communication must be left open, surely? No blocking phone numbers, or setting up rules on emails, so all emails from the narc go straight to ‘trash’ or ‘junk’.

    And what of ‘grey rock’ in such situations, where contact must happen or
    be able to happen?

    Your thoughts would be welcomed, HG. Thanking you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Addressed this is in the article.

      1. Sunshine says:

        Apologies, you did indeed, albeit briefly.

        To tell the other co-parent that you are only checking emails once a week is additional contact, though, and surely it is inviting their disagreement, and further debate?

        Sadly, the legal concept of ‘parental responsibility’ dictates that there must be some contact between co-parents, including negotiation, throughout the child’s childhood. There are many situations where the narc parent must be consulted – such as choosing which school they go to, if the non-resident parent wants to take them overseas or the resident parent wants to take them overseas for more than 4 weeks; and inform the other parent of any significant medical matters etc.

        These are challenging scenarios for no-contact, as they require multiple communications, and the potential for debate and disagreement. Can you offer any thoughts or advice?

        Do you have any thoughts on grey rock?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Of course but you are dealing with a narcissist so we will always be looking to disagree. You have to make the decision, assert the boundary and forge forward.

          2. Noted. Some of this could be facilitated through e-mail exchange (this medium creates a record and also means minimal fuel is provided) . If there needs to be a discussion, it could be done by telephone conference so you are not present (thus diminishing the extent of manipulation and fuel provision) with the narcissist. If it is really necessary to be physically present (and whilst we will angle for this, you can resist it and still communicate) do so with a third party available. I recognise that where there is court ordered co-parenting there has to be some interaction but you still have plenty of methods of available by which you can reduce the impact on you. Furthermore, you will also see that when these measures are put in place and done so effectively, because the narcissist is not getting what he wants then the interest in the children is likely (not always, but often) diminishes anyway because of course it is not actually about the children.

          3. I am not an advocate of grey rock. You should look for no contact as far as possible and only resort to interaction where it really is absolutely necessary (court ordered co-parenting discussion being one). it is very hard to remain in our presence and not provide us with fuel, succumb to emotional thinking and be affected by the manipulations in some way. Accordingly, you need to have a situation where if there has to be face to face interaction it is very rare and minimal in duration.

      2. Sunshine says:

        Thank you very much for this – very helpful. Truly – the topic of co-parenting with a narcissist is so huge, and so relevant for so many – perhaps it could cover a whole blog post – or even book! Any chance, HG??

        As for grey rock, my understanding is that it is to be used where contact absolutely has to happen – such as the co-parenting of children. It is to be used alongside no-contact, but only where information has to be exchanged.

        I think that the idea of being as boring as humanly possible and writing as little as you possibly can in your communications, has a lot of logical merit. If your communications are concise, factual, dull, then surely you are providing no fuel and the narc would get bored with you?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Work in progress in that regard.

          Correct. Better to have no communications but if there absolutely must be any, keep them short, in writing, factual and fuel free.

      3. Sunshine says:

        I’ve just come across your ‘save the children’ article – excellent stuff. Thanks for producing this.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re welcome.

  13. Loulou says:

    That s.o.b will never contact me again! Not when my spouse has threatened him personally if he even attempts a Hoover, and especially since he has arrests for stalking and holding someone against their will. ( the narc – not my spouse). He has played the big tough guy on the outside but inside he is a loser punk who would probably squeal from a damn mouse.

  14. Ann says:

    Mr HG Tudor, did anyone you had strong feelings for (desired their “quality fuel” in your terminology) suddenly go no contact? And they did it at the very minute you thought you just masterfully “ensnarled” them? You gradually understand that they figured you out, outsmarted and outwitted you; and they plotted their escape so that you are completely out.

    How would it make you feel to be able to see them again, to speak to them again should it ever happen to you?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, they have not Ann.

      1. Ann says:

        Mr Tudor, I understand. But what if they did transgress you that way? How would you feel should you suddenly end up with them face-to-face? Wouldn’t it feel wonderful and liberating for you, sir? Thanks.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It would wound and ignite my fury.

          If I then encountered them face to face I would draw them in again so their defences were lowered and at the appropriate time punish them and crush them.

  15. Freedom45 says:

    This truly is what I apply every day , it’s been 14 months freedom , however if I ever listened to him or allowed him to contact me I know I would not be free . From the moment I decided he crossed the line I went NO CONTACT , I treated him like heroine one tiny bit and I would be back , one sniff , touch anything at all and I know it , it would be different story . Even down to the letter he sent it went back unopened but the closer I got to the letter as it sat on my fireplace I could feel the anxiety , however I had 100 percent made up my mind not to open it , there was nothing good in that for me , only same old shit and I was done . . I had to stay away and put everything in place to maintain that no contact . I know this is something I will continue to battle with possibly forever , such a shame but my emotions will come flooding back like HG said. I feel so much better now , I think straight , I smile more and enjoy life more , it is so worth the effort . Also a big one for me is people ask me in the street have you seen “him” I politely say oh I don’t consider him anymore but next time you can ask how I am and laugh as they are usually embarressed for asking , it annoys me when people want to know your business !!! It’s so strange but after the long marriage of 18 years when it first happened I actually couldn’t picture him in my head at all I think I wanted to block him so much after the pain he caused , best wishes to you all xxx NO CONTACT the only way because as soon as you listen ………. fuck that x no thanks not taking the chance ever if I can help it . Never ever do the Facebook thing , I hate that crap anyway , but you just have more questions than answers . it would be torture no thankyou . Hopefully you don’t go 18 years like me haha get out stay out now but obviously only when you have had enough , some people need to go a few more rounds before there done … look at me ha xx

  16. Holly Mead says:

    I am on a new attempt at no contact.

    This morning I woke up to the text: “fuck you, you ugly bitch”…ahhh to be loved so deeply.

    I made the mistakes the other times to social media stalk him, I think this time I got it. Christ All Mighty, I hope so.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Now, tell me, what is the first thing you are going to do?

      1. H. says:

        I went NO CONTACT…..i have been posting about it. Reading your Blog is helping me to “get it”…and its working.

        1. HG Tudor says:


    2. LB says:

      Omg. That is so familiar. Haha.

      1. H. says:

        Right? That’s sad for both of us.

    3. Loulou says:

      i am sure HG want’s you to do no reply but if you do say “sorry this is not your mum’s #”. Never put up with those words ever! If you have done nothing to him you don’t deserve that language or treatment

      1. Fiona says:

        HG means block him but lol @the mum comment

  17. Noname says:

    Wow, it is a very powerful piece of writting, doctor Tudor! Excellent new article.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  18. Sandra says:

    Having a hard time giving up the email loophole.

    1. Narc Angel says:


      Does it help to think of that loophole as a noose? Because it is.

      1. narc affair says:

        Good pt narcangel!

      2. Sandra says:

        Ouch. Yes, it does.

        Thank you for the reality check Narc Angel.


  19. Viva says:

    Star, it is a great mantra actually for everyone. Many narcissists know and don’t go. They keep their secrets going and for at least a time(some longer than others), we are acting on uninformed consent. The narcissists stick around and continue the playact for residual benefits in many situations.

    1. Star says:

      So so true Viva!

  20. Hello HG. I’m new to the group and am gaining great knowledge and insight from you, so thank you for all that you offer.
    I am reading your book No Contact, and I am on day 72 (when do we stop counting in days??!!) of no contact. However, after reading this article, I find that I do have some work yet to do, mostly on my own brain…. The article does bring up a question for me, though.
    My question relates to social media. It has been his practice to create new profiles to continue trying to monitor me. My “strategy” has been simple thus far… As I became aware of each new profile, I offered no reaction at all except to block the new profile. Last night was the last straw, however. He sent a message from his 11th fake profile to remind me that I’m a whore (alack, I had forgotten…). I finally decided to deactivate my account. So, to my question… When I block or deactivate an account following a breech, does that constitute a reaction or contact in his mind? Does my blocking him or deactivating my account supply him with fuel? Am I back to square one?
    I also have another question, unrelated to this article, that I’ve wanted to ask. It may be answered elsewhere, but I have yet to run across it . Is the level or school of narcissism established from the onset, or does one evolve in his/her narcissism (some never progressing at all and some progressing to mid-range and possibly to greater)?
    Thank you, again, for this blog. I found it just when I needed it most.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello S and G, thank you for reading my work and welcome.

      1. The message is a breach of no contact, yes, however blocking or deactivating does not provide fuel. It will wound him and therefore this is the right response. You may think he thinks “ah she is scared of me because she keeps blocking me’ – he may articulate that as bravado but he will be wounded.
      2. You are not back to square one because it is a minor breach. You have not given fuel, you have not been ensnared, but there has been a hoover which has landed and got through no contact. You continue with your no contact and consider whether coming off social media altogether might be better, which appears to be what you have done.
      3. The school of narcissism is established early on, yes.

      1. I appreciate your feedback. I have all sorts of well-meaning advisors who really have no concept of this issue, and their advice has often blown up in my face. I will continue with the walls I have in place and if he happens to worm his way through any of them, I will block that access as effectively as humanly possible. I just hope I don’t unknowingly wander into a sphere of influence… my biggest fear is running into him somewhere. I honestly don’t know what I will do if that happens.
        I’m really glad to have a place where I can see how others have handled situations similar to mine and where I can access the wealth of information you have for us here.

  21. Star says:

    “ once you know , you go”I love that. Powerful. Should be every victim’s mantra.

  22. Iris says:

    (I’ve aready posted this post somewhere else on your website, but as it is about hoovering maybe this is a better place to ask my question. I hope I’m not pushing my luck though ;-))

    I have gone no contact with my ex-narc (a mid-midranger) 1,5 years ago, after I broke of our relationship with a email in which I told him what I really thought of him.

    He was already love bombing my replacement at that time. This relationship failed recently. She broke it of. He is hoovering her at the moment to get her back as his girlfriend. I’m sure he doesn’t want me back as his girlfriend, but I think he has shelved me as a potential future IPSS.

    I’ve been with a new boyfriend – a non-narc – for almost a year. I posted something about our upcoming anniversary on my social media and wrote how happy I’m with this new man.

    My ex-narc wrote (with a new nickname, as he is blocked) how glad he is that I am so happy with this new man and that he wishes me all the best.

    I know this is a benign hoover, so I’m not responding. I also know he is not really happy for me as he can’t be happy for someone else, but I’m wondering if you can tell me what he is really feeling about the fact that I don’t want him anymore? Is he jealous, angry, annoyed or perplexed? And why did he feel the need to react at all? To show me that he is the bigger man?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He will be irritated, annoyed and jealous of your announcement of happiness (see Jealous Of Your Contentment).

      He did it to draw positive fuel, to lower your guard and for facade management.

    2. Sunshine says:

      Iris, surely the very fact that you’re wondering what he is feeling, and even going to the lengths of asking a narcissist what he is feeling shows that you’re nowhere near no-contact?

      Block that new ID that your ex has, pronto, and delete his comment.

      You have to stop thinking about him. You are giving him mental real estate. Instead, invest your thoughts and your time in yourself, your family, your friends, your new man.

      Your ex is a dodo. Get rid of every trace.

      1. Iris says:

        I understand what you’re saying Sunshine and it’s true that I’m thinking about him at the moment, but fortunately not with the same emotions as I used to have. Luckily nowadays it’s more curiosity than anything else and that is why I asked HG about this strange behaviour.

        I realise now that my relationship with my ex-narc was in fact a blessing in disguise. His mistreatment of me got me thinking about my past and about my current relationships, and it is because of his mistreatment of me and the fact that I allowed it to happen that I realised that I a codependent and that I need to work on my boundaries, especially with my family of origin.

        They are the ones that I’m still thing about all the time and they are the ones that make my life very difficult at the moment. My ex-narc is a walk in the park compared to them.

        He is already blocked and deleted, no worries ;-).

  23. Viva says:

    You have in great detail warned and advised. This is care revealed, whether you want to admit it or not, unless you are forced to write, which I do not think you would cooperate so thoroughly. Some narcissists have more problems than others and some would not warn anyone ever, even slightly about tactics. A magician never tells, unless he is a mentor for a upcoming magician after he has years of experience and he never tells his audience about the best tricks unless he doesn’t want his audience to be tricked again in the future. Most narcissist don’t care if anyone is tricked, no matter how damaging the actions/tactics are. Maybe you monetarily profit from this site, but some details you could have kept secret and still enjoyed profit. You push to be the caretaker/teacher of your audience. Caretaking, especially extremely detailed, has a reward for the audience and you. I think you might agree that your audience is smart enough to read and understand that this site takes(you take) better care of them through details that you decided to reveal as opposed to too many other sites, which don’t go to such lengths to help the victims. Maybe you don’t want anyone to think that you have some ability to care, even if it is anonymous and remote. What is so bad about having some level of care about outcome for all of us including yourself? We stay remote and we all win.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is not an issue of whether it is good or bad, but it is not about caring.

    2. Iris says:

      Viva, it’s like asking a blind man to see. It’s not possible to care if you have no empathy or conscience. Sad but true.

  24. Iris says:

    The big one off course, the one with all the wives ;-).

    (Henry VIII)

    1. HG Tudor says:


  25. Liv2Love says:

    Just been hoovered again, and got sucked back in. After 6 weeks after being out.
    He got what he wanted. 2days of sex, got me to tell him I love him. 2 days later he has started devaluing me again.
    All coz I left the ability for him to text me open. Blocked everything else.
    I finally succumbed, and responded. I tried to show him what he threw away. He suddenly arrived at my house at midnight, and wouldn’t leave until I let him in.

    Even when I did block him on text, he found another way. He’s always found a way to contact me. Even when I was overseas.
    Hence this time I figured no point in blocking him on everything coz he just finds other avenues, and then i think ah well, look how much effort he’s going to. or I just end up getting more annoyed and breaking my no contact. either way.

    I am honestly feeling like the only way out of the grips of this narcissist is to just kill myself. I don’t think I am ever going to get out of this dazed torturous maze he’s put me in, completely. I honestly feel so trapped in this. I don’t know what to do anymore.
    I hate that I sometimes doubt whether he is a narcissist, thats when I somehow let my defences down, and I get hoovered back in.

    Why do I doubt what he is. Maybe he isn’t one. All I want is to be free of this in my heart and mind.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Liv2Love and welcome on board.

      Well done for blocking him but you can see the weakness that resulted from not blocking his text. Therefore this was not no contact.

      When he turned up at your house you did not have to admit him. You ought to have called the police and had him removed. Let him stand knocking at the door, that is your door and remains closed to him.

      I understand your thinking about you may as well leave text open because he will work around it (although you do not say what the other ways he found to contact you – unless you mean turning up in person and I have already addressed that). However, this is the result of emotional thinking. By blocking all technological means and therefore leaving only personal attendance, proxy hoovers or sending letters/gifts to your property you are raising the hoover bar and mean that a hoover MAY happen but it is LESS likely because it requires the narcissist to apply more effort to execute it. If you leave a technological route open to us then you really do lower the hoover bar and hoovers will be much more likely. Block all routes. If he turns up at the house, ignore him and call the police. This will raise the hoover bar and over time he will hoover less and less.

    2. Narc Angel says:

      “i tried to show him what he threw away”

      Isnt that the real truth behind why he was not blocked fully and not all the other reasons?

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        “i tried to show him what he threw away”

        Isnt that the real truth behind why he was not blocked fully and not all the other reasons?

        ^ and the flip side. i tried to show myself that he was good, kind, decent, loving. that he meant something. it was real. tra-la-la. i want it to be REAL. i want him to be GOOD. i want to be WRONG. i want this all to be UNTRUE. i want to be THE PROBLEM. i can fix ME. i cannot fix it, him or this. gaaaaaaaaaaaah.

    3. narc affair says:

      Hi liv…its a process and for many it can take several times before a victim leaves for good. Dont beat yourself up but instead look at it as a learning opportunity…a step towards freedom. You went back and now youve seen how quickly devalument has started up again. This is validation that youre with someone abusive and it doesnt matter if hes a narc what matters is how hes treating you which is not good. You can get out and will. Blocking fully is difficult bc it means completely ending it but it must be done. Youll get there 👍

    4. numb says:


      I’m glad you found this blog! I don’t comment often, but I’m here regularly and its helped me tremendously. I felt compelled to reach out to you when you wrote you felt the only way out was to kill yourself. NO! I’ve been where you are and I promise things will get better! Stay with us, stay no contact, keep reading. Exorcism and Escape both helped me. I would recommend you read all of HG’s work, but start with those.

      Please hang in there for all those who do truly care about you. The Narc does not, never has and sadly, would likely just gain fuel if you attempted to kill yourself over him. Don’t give him any more control. Even if you need to fake it to make for the time being. Seize the power!


    5. mb says:

      Liv2love, first, I understand how low and powerless and overwhelmed you feel, I’m right there too … it’s very difficult, and I have also felt like ending it all in weakest moments, please be encouraged and know you are so worthwhile and when we feel like checking out it will pass, my heart goes out to you and this ( HG’s narcsite) is the best place to be, breathe in calm determination deep and breathe out wasted empathy on your N .know you’re loved, valuable. We will get through this.

    6. jenna says:


      Pls don’t even think of killing urself. Don’t allow anyone to have that much power over u, esp not a narc. He wouldn’t even care. U need to prove to him that YOU r the one who doesn’t care. Sometimes we need a vicious devaluation in order to completely block everything. Ur vicious devaluation has arrived. Take the hurt frm it and channel that into complete no contact. Pls stay here and share ur feelings. U will find much support here. U will find answers to everything. U r not alone. I am sending u a big hug. 💗

    7. Mrs Linton says:

      Please Liv2love don’t do that. Don’t answer the door put some headphones on. If you were staying at someone else’s he would have to go away.No means no. So sorry. I am dreading my next hoover and am using a spider diagram to help me work with my emotions, in the moment while there standing there with the hoover it’s damned hard, but not impossible.

  26. Iris says:

    I think that people who are trying to find a silver lining in your actions are still very much in denial about the true nature of narcissists, especially that of greater narcissists.

    No offence HG, but I know for sure that the only reason you are doing this is to show your superiority over other narcissists. Not that I mind though ;-).

    PS: are you named after Henry Tudor?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I agree with your first paragraph Iris.

      It is not the only reason but it is one of the reasons.

      Which one?

      1. Mona says:

        HG, it could be some kind of deal with the good doctors. As far as I remember you were forced to do the therapy because only then you would not lose a heritage or denied a great amount of money. Maybe the doctors were of the opinion that writing about yourself in public would help you to change.
        Another reason for your work here: you want to be famous. Most of the narcs want to be famous, that is one of their characteristics.
        Further reason: You are just building your own monument for eternity, you do not want to be forgotten.
        And some day there will be the grandiose finale.
        Whatever it is, it will be extremely selfish.

      2. Salome says:

        The 8th

  27. Sally says:

    I am also guilty of not going ‘no contact’ although I thought I had. I haven’t blocked his number as I am curious as to whether he will hoover me and I won’t know otherwise. I’ve told myself I just wouldn’t respond if he did.

    I’m pretty sure he already has as the police got involved (long story) and I asked them to tell him and his new squeeze (one of four he was cheating on me with) not to harass me and gave her full name. I don’t think they realised that I knew her surname. I found it out through FaceBook and lo and behold when I looked at her account a couple of weeks ago his picture was all over it when she hadn’t posted anything since March. It went up a couple of weeks after the police got involved but I had only just seen it.

    Was this a hoover HG? He doesn’t use social media himself and I’m thinking that perhaps he encouraged her to put it up there as obviously someone had been ‘poking’ the account and they guessed it was me. Or maybe I’m just reading too much into it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Passive hoover, yes.

  28. Nuit Étoilée says:

    And so, dearest HG, how do we know when it’s time to go no contact with you?

    I’m asking in all seriousness – I lean on your work, the interaction here – to replace my addiction, but it is still an addiction.. i feel that now I think of the narcs bc I’m reflecting on the issues brought up – not that it is ongoing for me – as these relationships are in the past..

    Do I need a Tudor Totem to reduce my reliance on you?

    1. Narc Angel says:


      Merchandising has dispatched an 8 inch flesh colored Tudor Totem to your address. Watch for the drone and its parcel marked: handle with care.

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Oh thank you, NAngel 🙂 just what I need to help me sleep better – plus, less manipulation… wait.. or maybe.. no more worries about silent treatment?
        – talk about comfort crumbs… 😉

        I was afraid I’d joined the ranks of the excommunicated (oops)..

        1. Narc Angel says:


          Well Tudor does espouse that you should love yourself first. He just didnt say what with so………

          Btw-the silent treatment is up to you but you may want to cheer yourself on just a little. Instills confidence.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I’m sending you some bromide for Christmas NA!

          2. Narc Angel says:


            Haha. Thank you. Be sure to lick the envelope so that I have your DNA.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            All envelopes come with their own sealant.

      2. Nuit Étoilée says:

        It’s ok N.Angel, come join me for Christmas, I’ve got a lovely bubbly to share.

      3. K says:

        Any chance of sending a Tudor Blow-up Doll my way Narc Angel?

        1. Narc Angel says:


          Re: Blow up Tudor

          It could not be boxed due to being full of air so has been shuttled off to the compartmentalisation dept to be prepared for shipping. They offer that a particular area refuses to be deflated and this will cause a slight delay, but is not a future fake and will arrive in full seduction mode.

          PS Cuddling not included but can be added for an extra fee only during seduction.

          1. K says:

            Narc Angel
            Full seduction mode, now we’re talking. Add on Kiss me, Hush and LoveSex and mail me the invoice with the added fees. I await delivery with bated breath.

  29. bw says:

    i think HG cares about his sources of supply, which we all contribute to.

    But thank you for your words anyway HG!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No I do not. I protect my assets but that is different from caring.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        Helloooo HG! I believe you protect your assets as a matter of pride in producing quality work as this will be part of your legacy. There is a difference in maintaining professionalism and creating an educational, resourceful and accessible environment for your target audience but not factoring in any individual care specifically towards anyone.
        This is a nice new article. It will be interesting seeing you cracking heads where need be.
        Looking forward to a follow up consult tomorrow.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That is correct. It is professional pride. I am pleased you liked the article.

        2. Narc Angel says:


          Nice to see you Clarece and I hope you are well. Your absence has been felt.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hello NA! I appreciate that very much! Your presence is immeasurable on this site. What state would we end up in without you to bring levity and wit to our sorrows? You are always a force to be reckoned with – in the very best way!!

          2. Narc Angel says:


            Thank you. You are here 5 minutes and the room is already brighter.

        3. Windstorm2 says:

          Great to see you back!! I’ve missed you. Hope everything’s alright in your life!

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            I owe you, Sweet Lady, a very heartfelt and belated happy birthday from our bday weekend back in September. I saw your comments of concern and was so deeply touched by that. The impact of your wisdom, advice, shared experiences are just indescribable. You are Grace personified. I missed you as well and wish that I could know you in person as well. I have been doing very well and in time can say where I’ve been. For personal reasons I needed to break away for a period and needed to decompress from everything Narc related. I will leave it at that.

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            Ditto! I had concluded you probably needed time away to think. Wish I could meet you too, but it’s probably for the best. In real life settings I usually either run people off or I run away! lol!! Just glad you’re back here!

        4. Kimi says:

          Hi Clarence! Good to see you commenting again. I hope you are well!

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Thank you Kimi! I am pretty darn good these days.

      2. Jenna says:


        How r u?! Long time no see. I hope that means he’s out of ur life. Nice to see a comment frm u on the article tho! 💗

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hello Jenna,
          I think you may find a meaner and leaner Clarece these days. lol I appreciate very much hearing from you! Now we have to work the same magic on you!! I am proud to say that JN hoovered on Thanksgiving and it was the first time ever, especially on a major holiday, that I completely ignored and felt relieved to do so. The last contact I had with him was on 10/25. This is the longest I’ve gone without responding or speaking to him, at all. My mental state has vastly improved during this time away.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            How did he hoover? How do you know he hoovered? Sounds like no contact needs tightening up.

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            Oh boy… here we go… My head is going to be the first one getting cracked.
            There was no one else it could possibly be.
            The major point however, was my progress at ignoring what he said and the fact I have always caved before when he did this on a major holiday.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You haven’t answered the question. How did it manifest?

      3. Twilight says:

        Hello Clarece

        You have been missed!

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hello Twilight! Thank you kindly!!

      4. narc affair says:

        Omg mla!!! I was thinking about you today wondering how you were! Welcome back!! Youve been missed 🤗

        1. HG Tudor says:

          She never really went away.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            I think a more fair response is that I greatly reduced and withdrew for a period of time. To have been here participating in discussion everyday for two years and then stop and go several days at a time not reading articles or following comments, that definitely forced me to integrate more in my day to day life. When new articles like Classroom Narc, GOSO and your exposing articles on Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, etc., I did read those and follow.
            Little things though, like I feel more myself and productive at work. On a visit with family out-of-state this past weekend, they commented that I seem overall happy again and not seeing me so burdened with worry and feeling so defeated. It made a difference to create more of a balance.

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hello Narc Affair! I am very touched by the comments here to greet me. You are a very thoughtful, lovely person!

      5. abrokenwing says:

        Great to see you Clarece! 🤗

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hi ABW! Same to you! Thank you!

      6. K says:

        HG sent a funeral wreath to one of your IPPSs and that is the polar opposite of caring. Hello MLA! So nice to see you again!

      7. Noname says:

        Clarece! I’m glad to see you 😊

        I understand your need to “decompress” yourself from Narc related matter. For last 7-8 (?) months I’ve been here, I was thinking about Narcissism more, than for all my life together. Lol. I need to take a break too and distract myself from this very sad and painful matter. At least, that is what my irritated (by intensive thinking) brain and my own healthy hedonism keep telling me. Lol.

        I’m glad you are doing well and everything is alright with you.

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hi Noname! Many of your words have resonated with me over the past few months. You provide such valuable input. Thank you for reaching out!
          Yes, when, say, I’m eating in a restaurant with my daughter and I find myself always panning the room to pick the Narc out of all the other families at each table, it’s time to hit the reset button. Lol

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thought you only read the new articles….

            I notice the question remains unanswered. You don’t get to skip class Clarece without accounting for yourself you know!

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            What’s the question again?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You ignored the hoover, which is good, but how did the hoover manifest in the first place?

          4. MLA - Clarece says:

            Fiiiinnnnneeee! His number was still in my phone on Thanksgiving. Can I please just savor the moment that he came looking for me and I could ignore, gleefully? lol

          5. HG Tudor says:

            No Clarece, I am going to be a hard taskmaster here :-

            1. The number should not have been there. It is over 2 years since the wheel came off between you and JN.
            2. The number should not have been there as a consequence of applying what you have learned.
            3. You are using the excuse of ignoring the hoover to avoid addressing the fact that if you had deleted the number earlier it would not have happened.

            In other circumstances your resistance might receive approval, but I expect more from you.

            This is one of those moments to use a quote from a certain drill instructor – “Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn.”

          6. Narc Angel says:


            I like em hard Sarge. And the harder they are the more I learn……or something like that. ………

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Drop and give me fifty NA!

          8. MLA - Clarece says:

            Narc Angel & K – the Tina Fey and Amy Pohler of the blog… Lol

          9. K says:

            Thank you, MLA
            Narc/empath SNL. This place can be a riot; I love the humor here.

          10. MLA - Clarece says:

            I don’t mind you being tough with me. When I delete the number with all of the texts attached, it’s like I’m going to eradicate the last trace of myself when I was in love too. And I liked her. I don’t want her to be erased forever either.
            When I was in high school, my dad was in a horrific car accident on the way to start a new job. Got smashed between two semis on the Interstate. He somehow got out with a messed up knee and a head full of stitches. He kept an 8 x 10 picture of the totaled car in his new office. When people would ask why he wanted such a painful reminder to look at each day, he said “it reminds me to be grateful each day for walking away from that and how lucky I am.”
            JN was the culmination of a mentally horrific experience on the heels of my divorce. And I’m walking away now. My dad eventually took the picture down. And I’ll delete his number at some point.

          11. Windstorm2 says:

            I understand your thinking about seeing these texts as an important part of your past you don’t want to let go of now. I got around this by printing all the texts from my Moron out (took a LOT of ink and paper!) and putting them in my storage room. They’re off my phone and difficult to access, but still there if I ever want to.

          12. MLA - Clarece says:

            Thank you WS2. Yes, it’s like a symbolic move making the shift from all of those messages on the phone, right at your fingertips to a box in a hard to reach place in an isolated part of your basement. Almost like having a “funeral” for Moron.
            I changed high schools, out of state my sophomore year. I saved all the letters my friends mailed to me from OH to IL in a big box in my basement up until 3 years ago when I downsized. My last 2 years of high school were miserable and those letters (circa ’88 & ’89 and no internet yet) got me through when I was so homesick. I just keep things for a very long time. I keep sentimental cards in my dresser. I keep all of my daughter’s artwork and projects from her younger years.

          13. K says:

            Heads are cracking MLA!

      8. Nuit Étoilée says:

        *waves at Clarece* – we haven’t yet spoken, but I’m a fan of many of your posts! I love seeing all the support everyone gives! Lovely!

        HG – I know you don’t have children, but something I’ve learned is that if you are too harsh on them, they won’t come to you when they need your help.. (cracking heads??)

        .. so don’t be too harsh! You yourself prefer carrots to sticks…

        *and your advice to me did allow for a delay of instigating NC.. so…

        can you do understanding?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am well aware of how to motivate people.

          1. K says:

            I grew up with lessers so I am used to head cracking.

          2. Narc Angel says:


            Haha. Yours and mine are likely to get cracked together for acting up but I maintain we are still good eggs.

          3. K says:

            Chick-to-chick, you crack me up Narc Angel.

          4. MLA - Clarece says:

            I concur! Good Eggs! And both hilarious!

          5. K says:

            Egg-cellent MLA! And I am glad you agree! So nice to see you.

        2. Narc Angel says:


          Dangling carrots can lead to hoovers. Some heads could benefit from a cracking vs the soft boil theyre getting by the narc in their life.

        3. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hello Nuit! I like the inquisitive questions you ask HG. Especially the fact you got him to answer that it is his silhouette in the Polls articles. Impressive!! I pointed out his silhouette in one of his Instagram videos. They match.
          Now we just have to double tag team to get the big reveal sometime in 2018. lol

      9. Jenna says:


        “meaner and leaner” – i love it!!

        Good for u, for feeling ‘relieved’ ignoring him!

        Like narcangel said, u’ve been back just a short time now,and already this page is brighter🌞

        Ah, you’ve made my day sweet clarece!

        I hope ur sweet daughter is enjoying her year in school this year! I was not able to wish her a great start to the school yr in september becoz that’s when u were missing for awhile.

        I hope u do stay for some time. U need not comment on ur situation, becoz i feel that u want to lay low on that rn. Understandable!

        Just ur lovely presence is more than enuf! I seriously have a tear in my eye as i type this. I’ve missed u, my dear!

        Clarece, did u notice, in the last few wks, there has been an almost exponential increase increase in the number of commenters. I am v happy for the growing popularity of the site. But i also worry if hg is getting enuf sleep. What r ur thoughts?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Don’t worry about my beauty sleep Jenna.

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          Awww Jenna,
          You ask such thoughtful questions and remember a lot about me. Let’s see…my daughter is in 6th grade now and doing really well. I’m hearing other moms starting to complain about clothing wars and attitudes and I’m not having that yet, so I’m really relieved. We’re still like peas and carrots. She still takes dance but we are taking a year off from the competition side (after four years) so she can try out for the girl’s volleyball team and that season starts this month and goes until February I think. So I’ll be a Volleyball Mom this year instead of a Dance Mom. lol
          I have noticed the huge quantity and jump in comments and readers. Half of these people are going to think who the hell is this Clarece? lol What I noticed is with the increase, HG obviously has less time to get in conversational answers like he did his first year, but I see the conversations happening more between readers which is great for everyone to learn from and share experiences and get really good points of reference for behaviors.
          I think I got to be in a rut in the respect that in wanting to contribute and share stories here I was constantly remembering and reliving a lot of painful things between JN and myself. So I may not comment the way I did, but it’s most certainly not because of not liking any of you. I just don’t want to be a record on repeat and staying stuck in a dark place I was in.
          My last interaction with JN in October led me to the conclusion that Narc or not, he just really does not offer up one single quality worth me spending my time trying to constantly connect with and salvage anything. I don’t want someone one dimensional and it’s like pulling teeth trying to get a conversation without caveman oneliners. I don’t want someone who admittedly struggles with emotional intimacy. I don’t want someone who doesn’t value time with me in person. I don’t want someone who says he can’t trust me with private information yet he’s the one holding all the secrets. You get it. The list can go on for a long time.
          I’m choosing me first now.
          I read your comments on another thread I think where you said the friends you have in your personal life, you can never have a really good, sink-your-teeth blood or guts conversation with. I wish you could find that. I think if you had that influence personally, it would help you filter out the bs you deal with from your Narc. LIke if we could hang out this weekend, I’d take you ice skating with my friends and then out for drinks later and no holds barred on any topic. It makes a huge difference having that support system.
          We’re gonna make you lean and mean too Jenna!

          1. Narc Angel says:


            Yesssssssssss!!!!!! You first is the golden ticket. It pained me that he offered you nothing but crumbs.

            (Youre still in trouble with the principle but you can blame it on me and I’ll take your spanking and the naughty stool-I dont mind).

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Let’s not lose sight of the fact that there has been a continued engagement with a narcissist when there is absolutely no need for that to have continued. Jenna gets taken to task over her failure to implement no contact. There is a failure here also and it is instructive to make that abundantly clear.

          3. Narc Angel says:


            Yes fair is fair. I understand your questioning of her as you have others, and know that it is to ensure that her no contact is iron-clad so that a relapse does not occur. I was celebrating that she has decided no more crumbs and leaving the messy part appropriately up to you.

            The offer to take the spanking may or may not have been a total sacrifice I admit. Do I get a spanking for that?

            Yes,yes……naughty stool………sigh………

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and other readers are of course welcome to provide a pat on the back, but I am not here to make is easy, I am here to give you what you need to progress and I know Clarece knows that, she won’t take it as nasty but rather professional pride in delivering the right outcome for my readers.

          5. K says:

            No spanking for you Narc Affair, you get a head cracking you naughty girl.

          6. MLA - Clarece says:

            Apparently I should be spanked having the epic fail. Just sayin’….

          7. K says:

            Correction: Narc Angel gets the head cracking not narc affair. I can’t juggle all these IPSSs; I definitely am not a greater empath.

            MLA, you might get the naughty chair for your no contact breach.

          8. Star says:

            Ooh HG… hmmm,so commanding and forceful. We have been told.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed you have, Star.

          10. MLA - Clarece says:

            I know, right? F*ck his crumbs. I’m like Murdoch from Lethal Weapon now and “I’m just too old for this shit.” lol

      10. Nuit Étoilée says:

        ..don’t I know it..
        ..right then – comme tu veux/as you wish

        – always..

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, but thank you for your input. Now, if I just take the carrot meant for Rudolph and dangle it in front of someone else, two birds with one stone and all that.

      11. Jenna says:

        Beautiful u will always be mr. Tudor, but i am v worried u may tire urself. U r a good bad man tudor! 😉
        Ty for tirelessly helping thousands! Pls take care of urself also.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Your sentiment is appreciated but you need not have any concerns in that regard. There is much to do.

      12. jenna says:

        TY hg. Gotta love the drive, dedication, and perseverance of well motivated narcs! (Not that u compare to the others, u r far above and beyond!)

      13. jenna says:

        Hi clarece,

        Wow! A v-ball mom! Fantastic and fun! It’s nice that ur daughter is still in dance, even tho she’s taking a break frm competitive dancing. It will maintain the continuity but will allow time for v-ball. Such a well rounded girl! And i’m sure glad ur not experiencing the clothing wars, yet! 😅

        “Half of these people are going to think who the hell is this Clarece.”

        Or they will just think, “isn’t clarece jodie foster in the ‘silence of the lambs’?” !!

        But don’t underestimate urself here. Nuit etoilee has written that she is a fan of urs! If others read the early articles, they will see u, nikita, alice, and a few others picking hg’s brain!
        Lately, some pple here are calling me a narc lol! Maybe i am!

        I can certainly understand not wanting to talk abt jn(who? Oh nobody worth mentioning!). And i am so happy u came to the decision u did. “Caveman one-liners” – lololol!!! Ur ‘not worth mentioning’ millenial and my boring millenial are like 2 peas in a pod! Stick them together so they can bore the daylights out of each other!! While we go ice skating!

        Yes, clarece, many of my friends don’t wish to engage in deep topics. If i start bringing it up, it eventually gets laughed off into a joke of some kind (not a mean joke). Thus, i don’t bother going into deep convos w them. U r correct that if i had that, i wud probably b able to drop nex in a second.

        Wknd plans sound fun ⛸🍸! I am there!!

        Nice to catch up w u clarece! Sending extra encouragement ur way!💗

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Very happy to catch up with you too Jenna!!

      14. Jenna says:

        Hi Clarece and windstorm,

        I’m sorry to read abt ur dad’s accident. Tho it was long ago, how is his knee and his overall health now?

        Clarece and windstorm,

        I know i’m gonna b shot down by hg for making this comment, but i am glad u both took the steps u needed. Windstorm, by putting moron files in the basement, and clarece for doing all but the number deletion.

        Clarece still ignored the hoover, which means she is strong. She had faith in herself. It took her 2 yrs to develop that strength, but she did develop it. Many pple don’t have that strength, so nc is absolutely compulsory. In clarece’s situation, it gave her more strength to see that even tho she received a hoover, she was able to ignore it.
        It gave her the satisfaction that jn still pines for her (fuel), but she chose to ignore HIM. It is a victory over the narc.

        Nc will also cause a victory over the narc becoz the narc will be wounded, but the victim won’t know that he’s contacted her. Thus, the victim may not feel victorious. It is a risk, of course, but a risk she knew she could resist.

        Now, if one is with a violent lesser or a calculating greater, it is not worth taking the risk. But with a cowardly mid-ranger, it might be possible, depending on ur level of strength.

        I really feel it is specific to the individual. But u have to be ABSOLUTELY positive that u will b able to ignore the hoover. Since usually this is not the case, nc is the best solution, obviously.

        Hg, i know u hate this comment. I’m running away!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          This is completely wrong.

          “Clarece still ignored the hoover, which means she is strong. She had faith in herself. It took her 2 yrs to develop that strength, but she did develop it. Many pple don’t have that strength, so nc is absolutely compulsory. In clarece’s situation, it gave her more strength to see that even tho she received a hoover, she was able to ignore it.
          It gave her the satisfaction that jn still pines for her (fuel), but she chose to ignore HIM. It is a victory over the narc.”

          No. This is PRECISELY the kind of thinking which is wrong. This is the emotional thinking which makes excuses and leads to you getting ensnared again.

          You recognise no contact is compulsory but your comment pays complete lip service to it. Moreover, you know your comment is wrong and yet you still make it.

          Windstorm’s approach was practical. She did not want to remove the messages but she removed the temptation of them by printing them out and storing them away out of sight and she probably has never looked at them since. The difference here is that those printed messages are not going to clamber out of a box, walk up from the cellar and tap WS on the shoulder and say “remember us?”. Whereas Clarece left the door open for two years to be hoovered and it kept happening and she kept engaging. It is akin to crossing a busy motorway (freeway) and then saying “wow look at me, aren’t I good, I didn’t get knocked down?” No, there was a bridge you could have used to cross the motorway and avoid the risk of being knocked down altogether.

          You do not know that you are able to ignore the hoover because you do not know how your emotional thinking will respond so this comment is incorrect and foolish
          “I really feel it is specific to the individual. But u have to be ABSOLUTELY positive that u will b able to ignore the hoover.Since usually this is not the case, nc is the best solution, obviously.”

          You are taking an unnecessary risk.

          1. Jenna says:

            Noted! I stand corrected. Thx for pointing out my misdirected emotional thinking!

            Not mad at me? Pls?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Not at all Jenna.

            As you know, I am a hard task master, no sugar-coating here (you good people can do that for one another for the fluffy stuff) and therefore I will state the facts and correct inaccuracy and do so in a direct way. This is necessary to ensure you all get the message, the right information to help you and in a way where there is no margin for doubt.

            You did not criticise me in your comment Jenna, you did not wound me, therefore there is no basis for me to be ‘mad’ at you.

          3. Jenna says:

            Ty hg 😊

          4. Jenna says:

            I don’t know if this went thru cuz network connection was lost. I am standing in the middle of a grocery store making comments lol cuz this site is interests me much more than groceries.

            Original comment:

            Ty hg 😊

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I think you mean that as a compliment!

          6. Jenna says:

            Note: 1st long comment to clarece and windstorm was made sitting in the car in the parking lot. Next 2 comments i made in the grocery store cuz i can only make shorter comments while holding groceries lol. This current comment i am making frm the comfort of my home.

            I wanted to clarify in case someone thinks i’m a lying narc!

          7. Narc Angel says:


            I dont think youre a lying narc but youre not a very focused shopper lol. If someone in my aisle and in my way is talking on a phone I dont even say excuse me-I just ram their cart out of the way.

            (Haha, just so you know its me and can say hi in case that happens to you)

          8. Jenna says:


            Thx for not thinking i’m a narc!

            Lolllll! I actually wud love it if u rammed my cart!😂
            Then i can meet u!

            I’m the total opposite. If a cart is left unattended (a little different than above scenario), i first look here and there for the owner. If i don’t see her, i gently move the cart just so slightly, so i can pass by. If a person turns around and places their hand on the cart, indicating it is theirs, i say ‘oh, so sorry’. 😂

            My behavior must stop! Next time i will try to push thru!!

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hello Jenna,
          Your comments, from my perspective, were taken very heartfelt and I did identify with your thought process on the majority of them. Thank you!
          I have followed through the thread and read HG’s corrective tutorial on the matter and understand and appreciate his perspective as well. I guess it’s good I popped back in. Wow!
          HG, you do realize during a major portion of those two years that channels were left open for JN to hoover was because I was getting exposed to learning about narcissism for the first time here through this site? While others in my personal life were still convinced also that he’s resurfacing because he does care about me? Total conflict. You realize that for about 12 months of that time I didn’t even know yet if JN was really a Narc or if I was the emotional hot mess? You realize that I was also testing out scenarios, my personal choice for learning which you always said was risky but was my way of handling it? My goal for myself is to feel completely irrelevant towards him. One point Jenna made that is very valid, is with a cowardly mid-ranger, I’m not ever going to be in proximate physical harm from him. I don’t have that danger factor to worry about. My goal for myself is to NOT have to live in this NC lockdown mode forever. 8 years from now, I prefer to not be rattling off “well, I’m 8 years, 4 months, 5 days and 3.5 seconds of NC with JN”. Jesus sakes alive, no. At that point I hope my answer is simply, “oh yeah, Junior Narc, hot affair but not worth the trouble.” End of story.
          But…my goal for myself is for NY’s to delete JN from my phone. The number, the texts, the pictures. When the clock strikes midnight, poof, he goes for 2018. I operate by checklists. Always have. So this is my wind down for this goal. As Windstorm did her trek to the basement with a box of everything from Moron in Munich (but had to have been a process while printing off and revisiting many convos with him), this will be symbolic for me because exactly one year prior on NYE 2016, JN and I texted throughout the day and night and each wished each other Happy New Year’s at midnight. This will be a good riddance.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I accept that for a period of time you were ascertaining that JN was a narcissist and therefore you were not fixed with the knowledge of what he was. Therefore for maybe 3 months, 6 months perhaps a year you could be afforded some leeway. Not any longer.

            However, you have known for a considerable period of time what he is and therefore anything beyond that is just being ruled by emotional thinking and creating excuses.

            You know there is no credible reason whatsoever for his telephone number to remain on your ‘phone. And I know that you know this. It should have been deleted a long time ago and in any event at 5-12pm GMT yesterday. Yet now you are advancing the excuse of waiting for midnight on 31/12/17. That is just an excuse.

            I asked you the question why not delete the number now. You could not give me an answer. You were speechless. Yet you have still not done it. I need not add anymore.

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            Work in process HG. It will happen.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I have made my point to you and the readers. I have no further interest.

          4. Jenna says:

            Clarece and hg,

            “I have no further interest”.

            I feel wounded. 😫

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Why? I have said all that needs to be said. It is not an effective use of my time to keep addressing the point. Clarece knows me well enough to understand what I have explained and also to recognise why I have explained this. She is an adult, she will make her own choice. I have provided my expertise. She will let me know when she has deleted him.

          6. Jenna says:


            Everything u write is correct.

            For some reason, whenever i hear “i have no further interest”, even tho it is completely legitimate, i just feel wounded lol! It is my illogical emotional thinking. 😅

          7. MLA - Clarece says:

            We’re still friendly Jenna! See…virtual fist bump to HG (no hug respecting his space). If I was mad at him, he knows I’d be throwing a virtual paper airplane at his head. Came close but no, not yet. lol

          8. MLA - Clarece says:

            Shake it off Jenna! My time table is my time table. I remain mindful of HG’s recommendation though.

          9. Narc Angel says:


            I know Ive grown because the old NA would have mocked you with: Marcia Marcia Marcia (ala Brady Bunch) because your naughty stool is pristine and mine has grooves from my ass in it lol.

          10. Windstorm2 says:

            I thought it was a naughty step. How’d you get a stool? You spend so much time there you were blocking the stairs?

          11. Narc Angel says:


            You know I dont like sharing-thus my own stool. Thanks also for ASSuming my ass is three axe handles wide and can block stairs. Geez you think you know someone……………

          12. Jenna says:

            “… ASSuming my ass is… ”


          13. Windstorm2 says:

            Where’s your self esteem that you automatically ASSume I’m insulting your shape/size? I just figured you must be there so often and with your confidence and personality you end up claiming the whole step in ownership…Should have realized you’d end up with your own stool. 😝

          14. Narc Angel says:


            So now Im fat, bossy, and selfish. Im calling your neighbour to tell her youre taking her up for a bra fitting. Better bring YOUR gas mask.

          15. Jenna says:

            Stool, step, etc. I’ve even called it the naughty ‘stairwell’ and wished to try it out!

          16. MLA - Clarece says:

            I seem to need a Naughty Cot since I’m going to be spending a lot of time in the dungeon. lol

          17. Twilight says:


            I have never been on the stool my goal is to skip the stool and go straight for the ledge….I imagine the view is beautiful, frieghteningly high, and isolated. Now how does one get there…..

          18. Narc Angel says:


            Fucked if I know. I cant get off this damn stool!

          19. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            Ha ha guess you can say you hold a little place of your own at Tudor Towers. Now I know where to send that care package for you….

          20. Jenna says:


            Yw, but yes we shud be mindful of hg’s corrective tutorial!

          21. MLA - Clarece says:

            Jenna, I am always mindful when HG addresses me.

          22. Jenna says:

            True clarece! 😊

      15. narc affair says:

        Hi k….dont get me going on the spanking topic. Ive given up “hope” on that article 😂😄

      16. narc affair says:

        I was going to offer washing HG’s dishes if hed write it for us but hes got a housekeeper already so i doubt thatd work …sigh 🙄

      17. Nuit Étoilée says:

        NAngel & K – I wouldn’t like to have my head cracked.. a fessée (spanking) on the other hand… I love y’all as a comedy duo
        (and the carrots were for HG to offer for us!)

        Clarece – I truly appreciate your posts.. I saw your instagram comment 😉 I would so love to see his blue eyes.. It will be a pleasure to be on the team with you..

        Windstorm – I copied messages into a journal.. I recently reviewed them and was happy to see that my instincts were right – I didn’t trust him.. my problem is/was – I don’t understand myself.. I’m working on that..

        HG – please be gentle with me…

  30. Viva says:

    I think this site also shows that you, HG not only have some level of care that has been snuffed down, but has also surfaced. I think HG, like us, doesn’t think the same as some narcissists, who have done or will plan to do many malign acts that are beyond HG. You, HG, through this site help us to understand degree, which I did not find on other sites.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do not mistake these words as evidence of caring Viva.

  31. Neisha Terri says:

    HG, you are so right and I am guilty.
    When I think I’m going no contact actually I am not after reading this article.This is an emotional roller coaster. There was no closure and my ego is hurt. He’s upset because I said something he didn’t like about himself. Gave me the silent treatment for one week, I didn’t call nor text. He finally texted and I didn’t respond. He texted OK AFTER I did t respond and now silent treatment again. I’m learning from you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  32. 12345 says:

    I told myself I was no contact and only in the 6th realm of hoovering. After a Skype consult with HG I had to admit what I was doing.

    I hadn’t blocked email or all his numbers. He uses several Office lines and his cell. Truth is, I desperately wanted to know if he contacted me. I told myself I wouldn’t answer. The daily subconscious anticipation of possible contact wreaked havoc on me.

    Do I like not knowing if he has tried to contact me? No. Do I want to heal more than know if he’s contacted me? Yes.

    I miss him at Christmas time even though he was absent almost the entire season. Just too busy for me. Most Christmas songs tell you this season is all about love, right? He’s happy at home right now and very busy ruining Christmas for everyone around him.

  33. Viva says:

    Just details from experience: In some circumstances, it is better to hear or know what is going on, so you are not blindsided by malign acts. So, depending on history and the cadre’s MO’s, it might be or can be important to know whether you personally need to allow the narcissist to contact you. Since many are living in more dangerous situations, clues to a malign hoover or leaking might happen in the narcissist’s contact, which does in some cases give the source a headsup. It is easier to deal with emotions, then a physical attack or some other malign blindside. And always think like a black belt when it comes to keeping watch or listening. These contacts could potentially let you know that you need to be on red alert. None of us can stay on red alert indefinitely and without a headsup, you definitely won’t have any clues what might be in the works. This site is most informative, since comprehensively covers so many issues that helps to alert just how prepared you might need to be and still have a great life.

  34. PhoenixRising says:

    Well, I’ve done #1 and #5, and completely fail at #2-4. My emotional thinking keeps trying to get the best of me. He proves time and time again that he isn’t worth my time and energy, and yet I can’t quite get him out of my head. Once again HG, thank you ever so much for your insight and guidance!

    1. PhoenixRising says:

      By done #1 and #5, I mean I have successfully blocked him from social media and therefore have no idea of what he’s doing.

    2. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  35. Recovering Narcoholic says:

    We got so used to living in denial while we were in the relationship that we’re still doing it when we think we’ve gone no-contact. Thanks for the wake-up call, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  36. Iris says:

    Thanks for your tips. I have one question though: what do you mean by “talk about yourself”?

    She corned me in front of my house as I was opening my front door and putting my bike in the hallway. I had my back towards her as she said hallo and asked me how I was. She just stood there waiting for me to reply. I answered her that I was OK, asked her politely if she was OK, entered my home and closed the door.

    I didn’t want to be rude to her (negative fuel!) and I didn’t want to say anything more. Should I have?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Talk about your day, events, job and do not ask about hers. This infuriates us.

      1. Giulia says:

        This is borderline.”My” narc wants to know everything about me, he often states that. Everything that I think of, people I talk to, places I go.
        It isn’t genuine interest of course but I can’t make him talk about him. He keeps a curtain of mystery. He says bits and pieces about his life, thoughts and feelings. Nothing He says is clear and he avoids every questions I ask. The result is a confused twisted situation.
        I know it’s designed, everything, but….how can I piss him off talking about me if he lays down this strategy?

        And for the “no contact” ….I don’t like the idea of living in fear of him, of having to hide, or lock myself up because He could get to me and hurt me.
        I want to live like a person that has the freedom and the ability to deal with anybody in total safety.
        He maybe a tough cookie and yes I admit that in these months He was able to score one or two points but I always exposed his game and I rejected him, every time.
        And it is getting easier and easier to regain and mantain the control in my life.
        I am beginning to think that he can’t hurt me anymore. I can’t prevent him to say stupid things or lies but I can respond with solid boundaries when I need to, or want to.
        And I like this feeling of power on my life.

      2. Blank says:

        Right. So you talk about your life for 5 minutes and then they start about theirs.. for 2 hours 🙁
        I guess you (HG) would say something like ‘then you walk away’. But that is something that is really hard to do for an empath, because they’ll be going on about their diseases, how they almost died (of a sore throat) and how hard there life is because their children are so mean, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah……

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hence why you are better of ensuring there is no contact to begin with.

      3. Giulia says:

        So, HG, you are blatantly ignoring me. Too bad I don’t know why or I would do the same thing over and over and over and over….just to piss you off, to enjoy it better.
        You make the rules and you brake them, guess what:
        You are not supposed to act like the narc you are in this blog, but you do.
        There goes the trust out the window.
        Was there ever any other possible end to this? Maybe no. Now we know for sure. I’ll leave you playing the saviour to the other “millions” of women looking for advice in this place.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          What on earth are you going on about? Where am I ignoring you? You have no comments waiting in moderation. You have not asked anything of me which has been ignored. Provide some evidence before making groundless accusations.

        2. Twilight says:


          Were you not a “friend” to ED? I would have to go back and look yet I seem to remember her mentioning your name in one of her comments.
          Your comment reminded me of her and her accusations towards HG.

      4. Jenna says:

        I was gonna say the same thing! I recall guilia as being ed’s buddy!

      5. Giulia says:

        Dear HG, now you are pretending you didn’t check my yesterday’s comment before accusing me of groundless accusations, to make me feel even more ignored and add some smear to it.
        It is a joy, but not a surprise, to see how much pride and satisfation you take in being what you are. Keep in mind that the satisfaction I get from being who I am is far deeper.
        Yesterday is gone, today is another day and brings other questions not directed to you. I can’t rely on you anymore. That’s life. Some things are good up to a point, then they are not good anymore.
        Take care

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Nonsense. Let’s look for yesterday’s comment or comments shall we?

          Here is the first
          “This is borderline.”My” narc wants to know everything about me, he often states that. Everything that I think of, people I talk to, places I go.
          It isn’t genuine interest of course but I can’t make him talk about him. He keeps a curtain of mystery. He says bits and pieces about his life, thoughts and feelings. Nothing He says is clear and he avoids every questions I ask. The result is a confused twisted situation.
          I know it’s designed, everything, but….how can I piss him off talking about me if he lays down this strategy?

          And for the “no contact” ….I don’t like the idea of living in fear of him, of having to hide, or lock myself up because He could get to me and hurt me.
          I want to live like a person that has the freedom and the ability to deal with anybody in total safety.
          He maybe a tough cookie and yes I admit that in these months He was able to score one or two points but I always exposed his game and I rejected him, every time.
          And it is getting easier and easier to regain and mantain the control in my life.
          I am beginning to think that he can’t hurt me anymore. I can’t prevent him to say stupid things or lies but I can respond with solid boundaries when I need to, or want to.
          And I like this feeling of power on my life.”

          Here is the second from yesterday

          “That’s what brought me to Jesus, The Saviour.
          No guilt but forgiveness and freedom.
          I believe this icon is the evil center from which all other evil things radiate.
          It’s the most disgusting manipulation of all.”

          What is there to ignore? There was nothing for me to comment on. As you will know, since you have been commenting on this blog since 8th February 2017 and having commented over 550 times in that period, that I do not comment on every single post from readers.

          Where is the smear? There is none.

          So, as stated, groundless accusations.

          1. Narc Angel says:


            It sounds as though there may be an issue with your response time vs that of Jesus The Saviour. I dont know how you can improve on that since I do not know his response time. He has never responded to me. At all. In any way. Ever.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I have Jesus in the cellar, I am short on wine for the weekend so I have him stood over a burst water main pipe weaving his magic.

          3. Narc Angel says:


            Good luck. I hope he fares better at that than he does answering suffering little childrens pleas for help.

          4. HG Tudor says:


          5. Twilight says:

            I am sure you have answered my questions HG!

      6. Giulia says:

        Dear HG, let’s look at my comment again, isn’t there a question in it?

        “how can I piss him off talking about me if he lays down this strategy?”

        It was a question dictated by what you had said before about infuriating your kind talking about ourselves. I explained my case and asked you a question.

        1- the question was there
        2- it was grounded and pertinent to the topic
        3- it has not been answered.

        You draw the conclusions, or not. Do what you like to do, go for a walk. It doesn’t matter.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The question does not make sense.

          So, one unanswered question (amidst the hundreds of questions I answer across many platforms) merits your accusations does it?

      7. ava101 says:

        he wants to know everything as long as he is collecting ammunition for later use. To make you feel a certain way, to gain control, by knowing what he has to mirror back to you.
        Later on you can indeed piss a narc off by talking endlessly about unimportant stuff and by ignoring HIS day/topics/whatever.

        This is a different situation, and HG also mentions small talk topics, nothing of interest, nothing the narc could use in any way. Like: my mother likes to hear about job stuff which she can mention to her friends or neighbours by making it her achievements. She doesn’t care at all about real issues, going on about those, I can make her finally end a phone call.

      8. jenna says:

        Giulia/ed’s buddy,

        It sounds like a rhetorical question. Hence, why wud he answer?

      9. Giulia says:

        In your case: yes. I am not going into the details of the whys and the whens but yes. This is no accident.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          So you issue another allegation but are not prepared to provide any basis for it. Suggests to me there is no basis.

      10. Giulia says:

        I have no interest in issuing any further allegations. I was just vaguely wondering why you actively ignored me.
        Without the need to go deeper because it doesn’t make sense to begin with, since we know you are a narc by your own saying, not mine.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You were not ignored. I answer a lot of questions, sometimes they are not answered, that does not mean someone is being ignored. Please identify your entitlement to always be answered.

      11. Giulia says:

        No entitlements here, maybe higher “expectations” and forgive me for the lack of a better word.
        I can see you answer a lot of questions and I read them all. I read of all the times you answer the same question from different people and I wonder why you do that. I wonder why someone doesn’t read what other people asked to avoid redundacy, I do it, why some people can’t do that?
        Somehow my question didn’t make sense to you. That’s allright. You choose which questions make the best answers.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for the acknowledgement.

          I sometimes repeat the answer when the question has been asked before because
          (a) it is an important question that it is often asked;
          (b) that person may be new to the blog;
          (c) I am well-fuelled

          I appreciate you reading around on the blog to get answers before posing questions. Some people should do more of that. If you want to rephrase your question for me, I shall certainly look at it for you.

      12. Giulia says:

        Dear HG, thank you for your offer but no, thank you.
        I saw how it went the first time and the bulling arrayed aginst me for stating a fact. This is supposed to be a place where people should be comfortable in talking about their experiences and ways of coping with the pain, instead there is plenty of judgement and shaming.
        I’ve been told to be ED’buddy just because I expressed my sadness in reading of all the mess happened between the two of you, asking for some moderation and patience towards one another.
        She was my buddy just like all of the other people who found my interventions meaninful for some reason. But even then I saw much unnecessary shaming. This time it happened to be me.
        The irony is that it could happen to anybody in the future to the very people who shamed me.
        If you like to have a space where only your buddies send you feedbacks, strictly positive, regardless, then you are very successful.
        However, this policy may sabotage the very purpose of the existence of this place.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Let’s have some facts as you are misreading the position.

          1. You felt ONE question was ignored. Just one. This prompted an unnecessary comment from you. I have answered questions of yours before. I answer hundreds of questions. You could have written “HG, could you answer my question please and repeat it.” Indeed, I have invited you to repeat it and rephrase it in a way which makes sense but you do not wish to do that. Fair enough, but that is your choice. Your response to feeling ignored was both unmeritorious and disproportionate. In fairness, you have later recognised I answer many questions.

          2. There was no bullying of you. I pointed out your error and stated my position. Straight forward.

          3. Nobody told you to be ED’s buddy. You have misunderstood. Two readers queried whether you ARE ED’s buddy.

          4. The readers questioned this because as many of them have seen both here and on Twitter (and elsewhere) ED is a troublemaker and more besides. I am loath to mention more about that irrelevant individual. The other readers were concerned that your unmerited response to me was indicative of being of a similar mind set to ED as they believed you to be her buddy. They were not bullying you. They stated their opinion based on what they had read. That opinion may be right, it may be wrong, but they are entitled to state it and they did so and they did not do so in a bullying manner.

          5. If you are not ED’s buddy, fair enough. It did not cross my mind that you were.

          6. Nobody was shaming you.

          7. This is not a place where I only receive strictly positive feedback. You can see throughout the comments that there are people who appear at the blog and attack me straight away. There are others who pass judgement on my behaviour in a less ad hominem manner. There are others who express their gratitude for my work, for answering their questions, for being able to have a voice and engage with other readers. Only yesterday and today Iris and me had an exchange of views. Iris is entitled to do so. She expressed the view I was being manipulative, I disagreed, but the views were shared and done so in a manner where there is no repercussion. Iris expressed her opinion in a respectful manner. I did the same. The point is however she was able to express that opinion. As I have written previously, this subject is an emotive one. There will be frank and passionate opinions expressed. Dr Q for instance has taken considerable flak over her letter to the narcissist but also with people being supportive of what she wrote also. This environment is one where people are allowed a voice, they will get answers, they will have agreement and disagreement with not just me but one another but it is not a place where people are bullied or shamed.

          8. You are always welcome to express your views and ask questions. All I ask is that you maintain perspective when doing so as I have tried to explain in this response.

          1. Narc Angel says:


            Ironic. Believing ones comment or question should be answered in every case and immediately ahead of those patiently awaiting moderation (when it is clearly evident that is not the pattern or even possible) on the blog and then following up by attempting to shame the management of same by announcing they would ignore them over and over and over to piss them off appears to me to be infantile and entitlement worthy of any narcissist.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            As ever NA, I allow the facts to be presented so that readers can make their own minds up based on what they have read and apply their learning.

        2. K says:

          HG made some excellent points. You insinuated that I was stalking you in a comment once and you are entitled to state that.

          And just for the record, I could not detect a question in your comment directed at HG, therefore, I was unable to see why you thought you were being ignored.

          Clarity is very important.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you K.

          2. K says:

            You are welcome, HG. Your logic is clear and compelling and I saw no disrespect in the Jesus comments either, honestly, I am confused by the defensiveness that I sometimes see here.

        3. Twilight says:


          I state my opinion, observation or facts stated here. ED mention you in a comment, your comment reminded me of it. That was an observation and a fact. Not bullying.

          A man came here once and stated ED went by a few names other then ED, would you like to know what he said or shall I keep them to myself?
          I am not bullying you I am asking if you would like to know this list.

          Now this is this mans opinion yet from observation each of these “people” have behaved in the same manner. This is an observation of mannerisms of these individuals.

          A persons core doesn’t change with a name, it just gives the person a new identity within a world where ones identity can be hidden, This is a fact.

          If you have issues with me I would be more then happy to discuss them with you and possibly find a place where we can understand one another.

        4. Jenna says:

          Hi giulia,

          I called u ed’s buddy becoz u and ed were joking around abt hg self pleasuring, which i found disturbing and inappropriate. I asked u guys to pls leave him alone, esp cuz i felt he was acting a little different that day. I ‘felt’ he was low on fuel. This may have not been the case. He may not have been low on fuel, but in case he was, i thought we should be sensitive towards it. I stated that i am surprised he actually let such comments thru, and i think he was being quite generous to do so. But the comments disturbed me.

      13. Giulia says:

        Besides the fact that this thing is going beyond anything real.
        Besides the fact that some nick names that are taking part in this discussion have been harboring their own issues with me (?!?!!) about comments I made….something I can’t even remember….
        Besides the fact that being welcomed is a feeling and not a signed posted on some wall
        I knew what I was doing when I attacked you, HG. I stated it, I was breaking the rules, because I felt you broke them.
        And I felt that way because that question was important to me.
        You knew all my story and you knew I was dealing with this person -again-
        Was I wrong in thinking you could have remembered?
        Maybe I was.
        Maybe I should have been less illusioned about you involved or interested into the outcomes of people that challenge themselves with “your kind” after doing your class.
        My mistake.
        At this point, all I want to say to all of you dearest is:
        If you feel comfortable, when you turn off the pc, with the way you acted in this instance, then by all means you should be proud of you and your choices.
        I know that I could never be if I accepted this display as the truth, I can’t.
        So, since I like to be comfortable and to sleep well at night because I love my job and my real life, I choose to reject this thing all together.
        Enough for me.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. You admit to attacking me.
          2. Which rule did I break in not answering a question? There is no such rule and unfortunately for you, by you making such a statement, it highlights where the issue lies here.

          I am entirely comfortable with everything I do.

      14. Ratatoskerin says:

        H.G, have you considered putting the saviour in the oven, instead of the cellar? It would be a faster way to make vin brulé.

        Seriously, your quip had me in stitches. Have a great weekend

  37. Blank says:

    The hardest part of this for me, besides me missing him, is the thought of him missing out on my love. That he will think that I don’t love him and care for him anymore. I know in a way that that is nonsense, he just misses the fuel (or not, he’ll probably gets it elsewhere). I do love him though, I just can’t engage with him because I know he’ll hurt me again. Always keep the hurt in mind.

    1. narc affair says:

      Hi blank…thats me as well huge guilt. We are creatures of guilt. Keep telling yourself you wouldve kept being with him if he hadnt done the hurtful things hes done. There was a reason why you made the decision you did. Maybe hes thinking on that….or not,)(probably not), but it helps get rid of guilt if you imagine him thinking about how he drove you away.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Narc Affair and Blank
        I typed out a response earlier but dont think it sent. The jist of it was this: I used to feel that same guilt. I couldn’t stand them not having someone to love them and didn’t want them to wonder what happened to me and if I didn’t love them anymore.

        Over the years, though, I realized that never happens. They do just move on to other supply. They don’t miss us, they don’t pine over us. They don’t wonder if we stopped loving them. They honestly don’t care. They don’t worry. They’re not lonely.

        All that sympathy and guilt on our part is pointless. We really don’t matter at all to them. They consider us totally replaceable. Even if it’s our mother or father. They just find other fuel. Once this reality sinks into your heart, it is soooo much easier to move on with your life.

        Sorry if this is a duplicate.

      2. Blank says:

        Thanks ladies. It’s not guilt I feel towards him, it’s more feeling sorry. But you’re right Windstorm, they don’t even think of us anymore.
        I have moved on. I am fine now, I hope you are too. Good night! 😴🙋‍♀️

  38. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, this is a terrific article full of wisdom as always! A question for you. I love coming to your site, reading daily, and asking questions when they come up. However, in doing so, I cannot help but think about the narc. How do I reconcile this need not to think about him and thinking about him every time I am on here? I would love to continue being here but stop thinking about him. Any advice? Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      As explained before it is an acceptable and necessary risk if you are to obtain the relevant information to enable you to make progress.

      What are you better doing? Learning about ways to move forward which will make you think briefly about the narcissist or not learning, sitting and wallowing and thinking about the narcissist and getting miserable, feeling helpless and becoming ensnared again?

      Many treatments have side affects but they are worth it.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Excellent way to look at this! Thank you, HG!

      2. Nuit Étoilée says:

        ^^ *This* is what I was trying to get at with my post that offended you, HG – I apologize profusely..

        Thank you IL for putting my thoughts into words..

        hmm.. side effects of… 🙂

  39. Susan Kay says:

    I believe this is the best article you have done with regard to no contact. “Utter nonsense, you do not need to know at all.” Bravo.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. There will be more of this type of material and heads are going to get cracked together.

      1. Kimi says:

        I bet the No Contact discussions on the discussion boards prompted this much needed article? Thank you HG! It is very helpful!

      2. K says:

        Ha ha ha..noted! I don’t want my head cracked.

      3. Pineapple says:

        Certainly looking forward to that. Very much needed! Extremely eloquent article. Thank you so much Mr Tudor!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you and you are welcome.

  40. LB says:

    I need to stop looking at my replacement’s Instagram. He said that’s been over but he lacks credibility and whether it’s over or not isn’t even the point. That has become habitual. He has deleted most of his social, but I’m sure he’s creeping around covertly. I also need to stop trying to put events and dates together with the lies told over past 2 years. When I suddenly realize something and it clicks it feels like a revelation and my ET soars as if it just occurred. Then kim right back where I started as you so clearly demonstrate in this post. Ugh.

    1. LB says:

      Hi HG. I have not deleted yet. I’ll block and then delete. I didn’t realize that it would remain blocked if deleted. I guess I’ll fimd out! Xo

  41. LB says:

    How can I block his number if it’s deleted from my phone contacts ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Should’ve done that before deleting it. Either ask if someone else knows it and block it or when he rings, do not answer and then block it.

      1. Kimi says:

        I can see blocked numbers and they can leave a message, although there is no alert and it appears lower on the message list (on my IPhone). Again, just don’t look!

    2. Catherine says:

      I just realised I haven’t blocked him on email. We never used it, but that’s no excuse. I’ll see to that immediately. Thank you HG!

      And this is going to sound really strange but I always had this kind of feeling about him, I just knew when he was close by. Like some sort of absurd tingling of electricity. I haven’t felt that since the breakup, but the last few days I’ve started to feel it again. Like he could be in his car on the street outside my apartment. Like some sort of premonition. And I don’t even believe in that kind of thing. I’m telling myself his paranoia has infected me now, and probably it has; we don’t live close to each other and I hope to never see him again. He physically abused me the last time I saw him, and even though I never was physically scared of him, rather emotionally scared, I still don’t want him around. It’s probably getting to me this whole thing. I’m blocking his email right now!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well done.

      2. Fiona says:

        I had the same but in regards to messages on whatsapp. I could always feel when he would msg me!

  42. Narc Angel says:


    VERY impactful and should eliminate a lot of the excuses standing in the way of success if people are honest with themselves about their actions (or inactions). Should.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  43. Paula Sarno says:

    Hello HG, I completely agree with you and I am in a real no contact with my ex partner . But here goes my question , I have my eldest son ( 23 years old ) I am no contact . I manage to put him out of my house a month ago . We had very rough time ( policie , psychiatric counseling) but I have an eleven years old girl and she loves and like to see his brother . How do I manage Cristhmas , end of school year of the little one ?
    It’ s my son , my daughters brother , he is not my ex . Now I am only using mail with him, but I am very sad and worried for the future relationship with my youngest .
    Thank you ( there is no one else , no granparents , no relatives , no father , only the four of us )

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is best addressed through a consultation given the detail that is required Paula.

  44. mb says:

    Going on 6 months NC post escape. Due to income tax & divorce proceedings ( which are proceeding very slowly bcs his ‘reality’ and mine are different, he thinks he loves us & is the victim )( no one understands ‘no contact divorce’ they don’t know his ways. )I have had limited email contact. Please Forgive my asking HG Is speaking to counselors ( myself) and support groups good in your opinion or does it keep the infection alive? I’ve been feeling the need to get some emotional support especially right after escape. So many where I left believe me in the wrong bcs his behavior is different to us than them they didn’t receive the years of abuse. This is a hard hitting helpful article.
    HG when dealing with 95% of my world you are saying not to care at all what they think ( don’t seek to explain or justify my position). Counter ( Smearing) Also if I fear retribution what is your advice ? Any resources you recommend for me to shut off my feelings ?regarding fear or concern about future retribution how do I prep but keep the infection away? With 2 kids & limited resources . God I hate this. He always said he’d rather be miserable with me than happy with someone else but that scares me I can’t take the misery of staying and have trepidation of his fury bcs I left. He told lawyers & I He was seeing a counselor to ‘help understand wives better’ but that’s a waste of time IMO just him snowing another person to appear normal and make me appear mean for divorcing him anyway. Feels hopeless in a way . Here’s hoping his desire to conserve energy wins & he finds other fuel fast. Or dies. ( that’s bad)

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Emotional support is useful for victims so long as it is of the right support. It is a little like the adage ‘practice makes perfect’ well, no, it doesn’t, it must be the RIGHT practice. Accordingly, find someone who will listen but not allow you to wallow. Do not expect this person to provide you with answers, you get those here from me. That person is there to help with practical matters to enable you to gather your strength, someone who will provide you with the catharsis of allowing you to explain what has happened to you but this must not become a ‘way of life’.

      You cannot shut off your feelings. What you must do is build your understanding, create Logic Defences and recognise emotional thinking. Being upset and crying because you are hurt is a natural response for victims and do that. What you must not do is allow your emotional thinking (which is different from experiencing the emotion) con you into making bad moves such as keep dwelling, trying to contact the narcissist, trying to make it work, blaming yourself etc.

      To start, read Smeared, Manipulated, Escape, No Contact, Fury and Exorcism. This will start to building your understanding and provide you with practical measures to reduce your exposure to the narcissist and get the emotional infection purged as far as possible. Consult with me also.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        “Right practice.”
        That’s the term my favorite Zen teacher uses for how we should live our life. “Right practice” is doing every single thing we do, from opening a door to washing dishes, totally focused on the task, with mindfulness. To be totally aware of what we are doing at all times.

        I see similarities with how you’re using the term. You also want us to be mindful and avoid daydreams and delusions.

  45. Becoming Observant says:

    As the holidays approach, any HG-knowledge on handling family narcs is appreciated.

    Many may have established less-rigid no contact with certain relatives (by less rigid, I mean general avoidance without discussing it to others). Or, have a family member who is difficult, yet always hosting/in charge of the gathering (matriarch), who everyone tries to appease and/or avoid for the sake of a peaceful holiday.

    There always seems to be an innocent target (or target by proxy) at these gatherings: is that planned ahead, or spontaneous? Amusingly, all of the guests seem to recognize and anticipate it. Nobody wants to be “it”, and the other guests seem relieved when the target is attacked (bc it isn’t them), yet nobody jumps in to help the victim for fear of attack. This dynamic seems to happen in a LOT of families!

  46. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Thank you for this reminder HG.
    How did you know that I needed it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am impressive that way.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I needed that lighthearted smile today.

        Still… duly noted.

      2. HG Tudors # 1 fan says:

        Yeah you are.

        I feel like you are always reading my mind.

      3. narc affair says:

        Hes everywhere 🤗

      4. IJ says:

        HG this is exactly something HE would say. It freaks me out when you do it.

  47. bw says:

    I agree that complete No Contact is very difficult.

    HG do you think some of “us” look at what they are doing because we are conditioned to do so? or, did we just get used to the pain?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are conditioned by your emotional thinking to do it. Your ET cons you into thinking it is a good thing to do, a sensible thing to do or an acceptable thing to do.

      e.g. “Check out what he is upto so you can keep an eye out for hoovers.” Sounds credible doesn’t it? But why do you need to keep an eye out for hoovers? If your no contact is robust the hoovers will not get through and in time dwindle in attempts. What is really happening is the ET wants you to remain engaged with us, keep thinking about us, pretending that it is in your interests to do so. This feeds the emotional infection and keeps the addiction alive and then a combination of our attempts and your self-sabotaging ET will reach a tipping point and you will engage with us and be drawn back in.

      1. Derpy says:

        Firstly, thank you for this. I am guilty of almost every single one of them. I have written a list of things to do based on this post and it all starts with no more “checking out what he is up to” to prevent hoovers or to be prepared for when they happen. and I will be changing my number and blocking him everywhere. You’re right. I’m giving him an “in”, where I keep him fresh in my mind. The process of stopping that starts now.

      2. Loulou says:

        Excellent answer!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

  48. Iris says:

    I’ve gone no contact with my mother and sister (both midrangers) half a year ago, but unfortunately narcissists make it extremely hard for you to go no contact, even if you do it the right way by blocking their telephone numbers and email addresses etc.

    My sister lives and works nearby my house and every time she sees me before I see her, for example in the streets or in the supermarket, she says hallo and tries to have a conversation with me.

    In the beginning I tried to explain to her why I needed a break for them and why I want to live my own life. She said she understood and she said would respect my wishes and would leave me alone, but (off course) she didn’t.

    Nowadays when she stops me to force me to talk to her I respond as flatly as possible, tell her that I don’t want to talk to her and move on.

    I’m very annoyed that they keep contacting me and I know that there isn’t much more I can do to stop them, but I’m wondering if you could tell me if I’m going about it the right way?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Iris, I often explain that there are more options than people realise. Those options may be easy, some not too bad and some very difficult but they are options nevertheless. Let’s take your situation. Well done on blocking telephone numbers and e-mail addresses (I assume from what you have written you have done this) . You haven’t stated as such, but it appears your sister is engaging with you in person because (a) she cannot do so through the telephone and (b) she lives and works nearby. What are your options ?

      1. Move house so she does not know where you live. A difficult option perhaps with regards to practicality but an option nevertheless.
      2. Do not stop and talk to her when she tries to talk to you. Eminently achievable – I doubt she is going to rugby tackle you to the ground and pin you down so she can talk to you. I presume you can just keep walking by.
      3. If somehow she manages to box you in, then you are correct to respond as flatly as possible. Do not bother to tell her not to talk to you (she will ignore this and see it as a threat to her control) therefore give no fuel, talk about yourself, then remove yourself asap.

  49. K says:

    I hate when you are right. I am guilty (yes, you read that correctly; I used the word guilt) of # 2, 3, 4, and 5. My emotional thinking is improving but I will ramp it up. Great article, I needed that to put it in perspective.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you K, that is what it is there for.

      1. HG Tudors # 1 fan says:

        Social media. I should’ve listen to you.

    2. ava101 says:

      Me, too.

      1. K says:

        I am so glad I am not alone on this one ava101. Thank you!

  50. Windstorm2 says:

    Very good advice. I think the no thinking or talking about them are probably the most violated parts of no contact. On the surface, they don’t sound important, almost trivial, but we can never break away if the narc stays in our thoughts.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Correct WS2.

    2. narc affair says:

      Hi windstorm…this is very true and i find myself thinking this thought about all i discuss here altho its for therapeutic reasons it still places a lot of importance on the narcs in my life. Im slowly trying to balance my life with other areas of topic so its not just narcissism. I want my life to be so much more than the abuse ive experienced.
      Same goes for no contact if you talk about your narc constantly it places them in your sphere of influence!

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Narc Affair
        I know what you’re saying. I guess it’s like HG said – worth the risk to learn how to better protect yourself. I’d think if you are still in a relationship with the narc, or if you still want to be in one, you are definitely best off staying here.

        In my case I don’t think it makes any difference. I’ve long ago crossed the emotional sea and built my fortress in the forest. I have no problem seeing all of my narcs with cold logic. Plus I personally value knowledge so highly, it’s a no-brainer for me to keep learning about such a sizable part of the population. There’s still a lot I don’t know about narcissism and I’ll keep meeting more of them as long as I live, perhaps different from the ones I’m used to. Best to be as prepared as possible. “Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.”

      2. narc affair says:

        Hi windstorm…i agree! The knowledge is necessary to navigate thru life. Being naive in my 20s i thought everyone needed to be nice and fair in life but there are many types that make up this world and narcissists are one of them. Not only narcissists but people who have a lot of narc traits. When youre a hsp like me that poses a problem. Im too far on the other side of the spectrum and would feel hurt very easily. Over the years ive learned a lot of hard lessons and am still learning.
        Narcissism in a intimate relationship is one thing but imo in the workplace it can be much trickier. At least in a intimate relationship theres the option of no contact or limited contact but in the workplace thats not always an option. It definitely helps learning how to navigate around narcissists and maintain your sanity and integrity and still get along to some degree. It helps to protect oneself.
        I also want to teach my children what i learn so they dont have to go thru so many learning curves.
        Narcissists are a reality whether its fair or right is besides the point. They exist and knowing what they are and how they operate puts us at a huge advantage on the playing field of life.

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