Poll : Does the Narcissist Ever Care?
Does the narcissist ever care about other people? What do you think? Does the narcissist start off actually caring about someone but they are incapable of sustaining it so it fades away? Maybe you believe the narcissist genuinely cares but only when there is an upside or downside for the narcissist? Then again, you may take the view that the narcissist does not care and cannot show that he or she cares or maybe they fake the appearance of caring but do not truly. Let me know your thoughts in the comment along with instances that support your vote.
Thank you for participating.
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Yes to begin with but then it quickly fades away
This is my recent experience of staying with two family members.
When we went to stay with them first they seemed to be caring and full of empathy but by the time we were leaving this had all evaporated and all that was left was contempt. This was two months ago and I haven’t heard from them since and they needn’t worry we will ever contact them again.
I found this very difficult to answer and had to give it quite a lot of thought. Eventually I came to the conclusion that they show genuine concern for “loved ones” on rare occasions. It isn’t maintained and it’s possible that they may lash out later as a result of this. Either at the person concerned or somebody or something else because the feeling they had will have disturbed their equilibrium if you can call it that. I’ve been around them all my life and I’m now in my 50’s. My mother is one, my sister has become one, there’s my ex-boyfriend and my husband who I’m now separated from. I’ve seen my mother show genuine concern for my sister and my nephew. My ex-boyfriend was very upset when his dog went missing. I was married for 25years to a greater narc. I saw a lot of fake care but he seemed genuinely concerned for me when my Dad died and there was no-one else to witness it. I wondered if maybe he was just pleased that he was now the only man in my life. I also saw what looked like genuine concern when one of our daughters was ill. I would take concern to mean care. I think if care is shown for some ulterior motive then it’s not care at all.
Whether or not a narc can care probably depends on whether or not they are also a sociopath. Not all narcs are sociopathic. Maybe not even most of them, although all sociopaths are probably narcissistic. HG by his own admission is both. My narc is able to care if I’m upset about something so long as it isn’t anything he’s done. If I’m upset about something he has done, his fear causes him to verbally lash out and defend his position no matter what. This may or may not be followed by a silent treatment. It’s got better since I’ve learned to communicate with less emotion (“fuel”). It comes and goes – but thanks to HG at least I know now it’s not my responsibility if he starts acting out and I just do my own disappearing act when he starts narc-ing me!
I can think of many things he cares about …but it’s if there is a benefit . Even empaths do this sometimes …but it’s hard for empaths to be dishonest . He cares about his image and how he is talked about ….and he cares what others say about him ..that’s why he degrades in private . He can always say that Iam lying or that Iam crazy , if I was to tell anyone . He cares who finds out that he is abusive …I record it now. He cares how his kids look if we gain weight then we are lazy ….he heard this growing up from his Dad. He cares about how much money he makes so he can tell others who don’t make as much that they are lazy assholes. He cares about sports on tv so he can talk to customers about players of sport. He never cared for sports on tv when he was more of a physical laborer …now he’s in sales so he acts different and has some image he tries to uphold. There is always some benefit to him with what he chooses to care about. His best friend is a millionaire and his friend talks about his Will a lot ., and who will get so much money …his friend bates him with this so he is at his friends beck and call. But….he wants to portray he isn’t interested in the money ….his friend tests him always.
I didn’t vote. I would have if a choice was ‘yes, depending on who the othe person is’.
The N (seemed) to care for his father, (the Godfather). Mind you…he paid someone to nurse him through his final days, then took off to the other side of the country after his death. Of course he was the hero at the Godfathers funeral too.
I have spent a lot of time dealing with the realisation that N-sister and I will never be friends, no matter my wishes or attempts to make it otherwise. I have been grieving this the last couple of years, and allowing her to be who she is (from a distance), and getting comfortable with a sense of detachment.
It’s good to have my suspicions confirmed that she is unable to care in any relationally healthy way, and now I won’t be constantly disappointed.
What a bleak internal world the N has!
I love caring and loving. It feels like it’s part of the Kreb’s cycle of every cell of my body.
What does it mean to “care”. I think to care requires empathy. So I answered “never, they only know how to pretend they care” – They are strategic and understand how to play along, but to me ‘caring’ means empathetic concern. Everything else comes down to power and fear
KW
Good point. Our answer depends on our definition of “care.” I don’t see it as needing empathy. People care for their gardens, but have no empathy with tomato plants.
Windstorm
Whatever do you mean no empathy for the garden! When theres a drought I swear I can hear trees and plants screaming. They planted a garden at the achool by me and then went off for the summer. I have to take several trips with watering cans.
NarcAngel
You’re a better woman than me. I have empathy for all plants and it hurts me to see them wilted, but not enough to carry water to other people’s abandoned plants!
That’s pretty muchy definition of ‘care’ too.
…MY definition of care
https://youtu.be/nn8YubD01sk
Dear Windstorm and NarcAngel,
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself
I even talk to my mum’s cat over the phone … the cat cares, she purrs when she hears my voice
😂
Luv Bubbles xx
My Narc told me today, after talking to him about what I have learned about him through you, that I know him better than he knows himself. Everything I have told him about what his personality is like, fits the Narcissistic profile, but I have never told him he is a Narc. He would stop listening and be insulted.
Cannot completely detach because he is also my client. No way to be completely out, but I am doing SO MUCH BETTER than I was before I met HG. My Guru.
It scares him. He can’t figure out how, after 19 years, I am so wise to his tactics all of a sudden.
It’s almost entertaining how I can fit everything I have read into what he says and does now.
I know, I continue to give him fuel and that he is just hoovering. At least I know what is happening all the time now. It was awful when I was in the dark.
He told me he heard a young boy stuttering and felt empathy for him, recently . He might actually identify and feel sympathy for situations that remind him of himself. He does go out of his way to do favors for others and it may be that he likes people owing him like he says…but the effort he puts into the show of caring can still be a form of caring . He spent a whole three weeks in a hospital bed next to me , day and night tell he had to go back to work. This is why I married him ….one of the reasons. He climbed a tree in the country to get a nest for me and my art project. This was a great gesture …to show off his muscles and athletic ability …he never devalued me for 11 years . I saw a tear in his eye many times after we argued and he called me a bitch. Almost like he was angry at himself for doing something he promised himself he wouldn’t do , again. He built my father a deck with only me as his assistant. ( we owed my dad money) He physically does go out of his way for friends he values …their money is what he likes the most. But, it’s very hard to separate the effort and time when he could be sitting and watching tv. So …it’s very hard to see the flip in personality of this mid range lesser ? It’s just hard to know which is the act sometimes …the rage / or the day to day not drinking and working his but off ?
We are talking about people whose emotional development became arrested as a small child. Do they love? Yes to the extent a 6 year old can love anyone or anything. 6 year olds live their mommys one day and hate them the next. It’s the same thing with a narc they can love you one day hate you the next and then go back to loving you. Yes they love or what they think is love but the problem is there is no depth to it. It’s very shallow in nature. It’s a very selfish kind of love
Lori, I saw a lot of that. He would yo-yo between one weekend being kind and the next weekend being argumentative. Very much emotionally stunted like a 6 year old trapped inside a 50 year old body.
Some fascinating and well-thought out opinions here. HG has repeatedly stated that his kind cares only for the fuel, residual benefits and the façade which maintains the appearance of superiority and power. Thus the fuel lines stay operational to keep the creature at bay. Without delving deeply into root causes, it would stand to reason that being raised to constantly compete with others and to dread being “less than” would impact someone’s perspective and behavior. I believe the creature’s name is Vulnerability. Perhaps the horrific potential of losing control by caring for someone (and subsequently being hurt by him or her) is just too much to risk. With each new infatuation, narcissists may harbor some hope that this one will be different, but they inevitably sabotage the relationship before Vulnerability can escape and wreak havoc. From the narcissistic viewpoint, caring is too much of a liability. Caring equals weakness; therefore, if it exists early on, it is a trait which is methodically extinguished over time.
Or maybe they simply don’t give a flying fig from the get-go. Either way, they don’t/can’t care for people in the same manner we do.
In my life my mother is the Narcissist. When I care about someone, I want their best, even if it means that I will have to make some sort of sacrifice. If I care about someone, I put myself into their shoes and feel deep empathy. I ache with them, I rejoyce with them, I encourage them to find their own way, to find their own answers. When I care about someone, it is a give and take. When I care about someone I want to see them happy, spreading their wings and letting their spirit soar. I delight in their success, and I will hold their hand when they are down. I want to be a support and a refuge for people I care about. I love who they are and I strive to make them realize how wonderful they are. So, no! I don’t think Narcissists are able to truly care for someone else. I even truly care about my mother, and wish her all the best, which is something she can not do for me.
Antje.
Thank you for contributing your thoughts and experience.
Selfishness has an ugliness about it that gets me down, but love has such a refreshing beauty. You described it well.
Twilight —
I your response it sounds / rings / feels right to me .
100% pretend to care
Dear Mr Tudor,
I voted….. never, they pretend to care
I never realised the word “care” had so many meanings
One must always have a dictionary on hand when one is associated with a narc … haha
Very clever of you Mr Tudor
Luv Bubbles xx
I chose “Never – the narcissist only knows how to pretend to care”.
This was the most difficult poll for me to date. I think that they themselves believe that what they are doing is real caring and that they just add their personal flavor to it. They think everybody does it the way they do it, more or less. They really have good intentions but sooner or later they enter into the next phase.
Very interesting poll. To me, the answer hinges on the meaning of the word “care”.
At first glance, I instinctively defined the word “care” to mean “the perception or belief that the well-being of other people is important”, that is, to care for other people. For that reason, my answer was “Never – the narcissist only knows how to pretend to care”.
On further thought, narcissists do have the ability to “care”, but they care about their own image, their own power, their own wellbeing, their own status, their own fuel. They are highly motivated to do things that further these aims, so they do “care”, but they care about themselves first and foremost.
Then I asked myself, how many people in general, along the whole spectrum in society, truly care for others above themselves? There aren’t many. There aren’t many people who are truly willing to be the “hero” if it means that to do so would be to jeopardise their own safety, reputation, or social acceptance.
Personal relationships are a different matter to some extent. However, even in intimate human relationships, I believe that there is always an element of selfishness in what each party does. I think utter selflessness is impossible for survival.
WiserNow
I agree with you. I cannot think of a selfless act. Even if by your action of doing something for another it gives you a good feeling, it is not selfless.
NarcAngel,
Thanks for your comment. I believe there is no completely selfless act too. Whatever drives us, whether it’s instinct, intuition, desire, etc, it comes from a place that feels “right” to us at the time. So, by acting on that drive, we are answering our own internal voice, even though we may not be fully conscious of it or it may not be in our own best interests to do so.
The more I think about the whole subject of narcissism, the more “logical” I seem to get. I can see how emotions (or hopes, or magical thinking, or idealism) can put a negative spin on logic, because hey, wouldn’t it be great if we lived in a world where everyone loved each other and people just automatically did the “right” thing?!
The fact is though, that we live in a world (or a human society) that is not like that. The world is what it is. All the wishing and hoping and emotionally rose-coloured sentiments will not change it.
These polls are great, I believe, because they really make you think and question your own beliefs and mindset. To me, after thinking about these polls and the questions they pose, all roads seem to lead to a belief that humans need both narcissistic AND empathic traits. I think that being in the middle of the spectrum is probably the most advantageous place to be for a healthy human life and positive mental well-being.
Narcissistic traits are needed to survive (and thrive) as an individual. Empathic traits are needed to survive (and thrive) as a collective society.
Narcissist may have an interest but they do not care.
Don’t mistake interest for caring.
The narcissist puts a person first which give the illusion of that person feeling cared for. My narc put his family first even though he made me think I was first. The twist in that is that he left home at an early age and married me and never lived long enough with his family to live amongst them without a primary victim “me” while as an adult. He most likely showed his true colors as a child but it was disregarded for adolescence. Also, all of his sisters are narcs so they understand each other. But again, they haven’t lived together as adults without little me. HG has a plan for his mom and I have a plan for my narc. Going on two years now and it will happen. Patience is key. I also am not revenging, I’m just helping him accomplish his illusion from lie to truth. Hard to explain. Thanks HG for this blog.
Care about people no. Care about maintaining the facade and keeping themself well fuelled to keep the creature at bay yes.
I believe HG has stated a number of times that he does not care, but that he “protects his assets”. Quite different.
Ahhh NA. Yes. I should have known better. I since gone back and voted. I’m sure there alas a Will in waiting from the Godfather.
Yes, NA, I eluded to that protection of assets in my comment too and recall him saying that.
To an asset / appliance, protection can create the illusion of feeling safe with them, building trust. Therein lies where confusion starts. Agreed, big difference. To the unaware Narcissist, they probably think that is how you show care.
As a geyser empath, I am compelled to pick the narc does care, so long as there’s something in it for hm. There is that pesky unicorn of hope! Keeping the empath strung along. And that glimmer of yes he does care! A way through to his heart, true love! If I could just give more and be a bit better than the others! So we give more and more of what he wants to keep the relationship going… In us, there also are turmoil of feelings, knowing that giving too much is wrong, but we are unable to stop. What is needed is outside intervention for us. Of course I still struggle with the glimmer of care in the nar, or what I think band hope was care… And that is the danger. Then as i re-reviewed all the choices here I was drawn to the last choice as well. IIhave learned. Logic. So perhaps I am healing faster than I thought. With awareness comes power. If he really cared, or was capable of it, he wouldn’t have left. And I am not the only one I think. He got what he wanted. And therefore is that “care?” I force myself to think NO. and that helps.
Yes in the beginning. They are like kids with a new toy on Christmas and yes they love that new toy and by February it’s in a pile of old toys and they want a shiny new toy to love. I believe the feeling of infatuation they have at the beginning of securing a new toy is their idea of love or what they think it might be
I agree Lori, just exactly as you put it. I think they do care (in their way) in the beginning. The infatuation and obsession with the new fuel and appliance means they want you happy, glowing – and is why they try so hard for the initial golden period. It comes from a selfish place, because for you to be that way gives them the best and most fuel, but they do still care.
It’s just not the same as an empathy caring, where we want that person we love to be happy just for the sake of seeing the joy inside them.
This is a tough one to answer because narcissists care about their reputation an image–that is certain, so yes, they do and can care…IF it is about them or they have something to gain in someway.
Do they ever care about us? Not like the way we care. I think they care about losing good fuel, so they feign care in order to get it, but do they really? No.
I know that my Mid-Ranger experience believed he cared about me, or at least he said so, but his actions were the antithesis of what one does when they care for someone.
When I informed him that xyz hurt me, he took offense, did not regard my feelings and most certainly did not care to make any changes.
They care about themselves, their fuel and they will be mindful of their appliances when they’re still in good use. (Like a collector polishing his gold chess pieces because having them in good shape will garner attention. But in reality if one of those pieces chips, he will just replace it.)
Same thing with a narcissist.
The narcissist only cares when there’s some payoff to him for doing so.
I chose, never, they only pretend.
They are capable of showing they care, as part of the illusion.
The lower echelons of narcissists, think they care about us.
The greater narcissist pretends to care for their own gain.
Some know they pretend, others do not know or try to pretend.
Either way, none of it is real.
Only what we feel for them is real.
And then sometimes that looks more like dependence and addiction, then love.
I wonder, maybe both narcissist and Empath are in love with the idea, of being in love.
For different reasons.
The narcissist, to take love and feel powerful from loves fuel.
The Empath, to give love and feel validated from feeling it is returned in kind.
Pretend can feel real in any moment, if we wish it to be.
But, that doesn’t make it real or genuine.
Analise13
I like your assessment.
Thank you NarcAngel. I appreciate your comment.
I think in the beginning they want it to be real and so they talk them selves into believing they do care.
I agree but as part of the strategy. DEEP INSIDE THEY DONT CARE.
Nikita
True, not for us. Only for themselves
I voted “never, they only know how to pretend to care.” But you know what? As high on the empathic spectrum as I like to think I am, I really don’t give a flying fuck whether they care or not any more. There is ALWAYS a choice.
I chose yes so long as theres something in it for them. Many times ive brought up things that were bothering me and i could tell he was pretending to care. The truth is he didnt. I dont take it personally i just know its “not there” for him to be able to. Now if i said something that was affecting my life in such a way that would impact him then he would care. He wouldnt care that its affecting me but that it would impact him in some way.
Yet hes brought up other people who are going thru situations in their lives(usually politically based) and how he feels so badly for them and expects me to have the same reaction. Usually the said person is a shmuck that had it coming to them but he can relate bc in most cases they are disordered in some way themselves. He cares bc again it has to do with something that hes following or supports.
Narcissists care truely only about their own interests.
That said i am very stumped bc i do know he cares very deeply about animals and it is definitely not an act! I know this to be true. I think in my narcs case he can attach and relate more to animals. Hes got a very kind caring heart when it comes to animal rescues and he does love animals.
No two narcissists are the same and npd is a spectrum so it varies drastically. I do think all narcissists have certain elements in common and that is self interest and they struggle to feel for others. Its not always bc they are mean nasty people but bc they just lack feeling that. Its not there to feel.
Chihuahuamum
I agree with you. Mine only care when it would impact them.
My exhusband appears to really love dogs and cats, but it’s purely a fuel thing. He loves the way dogs and cats respond to him as if he is a god. He pets and spoils them so they will go nuts over him. He loves to triangulate them with each other and other people. But he doesn’t take them to the vet or grieve when they are sick or die. That’s just a nuisance and for someone else to deal with.
Hi windstorm…very true!! My narc has triangulated me with my own dog. Making it look like he cares more about her but honestly i dont care lol He must think i do to do it but in actuality i dont. I stopped caring once i learned what i was dealing with. I do care about him but im caring less and less about a lot of the tactics bc i know what they are and why theyre being used.
I do know hes grieved the loss of a pet before and thats the very reason he wont get another. Hes afraid of losing them to old age and sickness. He donates to and follows a lot of rescue organizations. Again its something that interests him. I do know hed love and take care of a pet if he had to.
Pets are a lot like relationships to him and he wont committ out of fear of attaching and having to sacrifice a part of himself.
Chihuahuamum
My exhusband often triangulates me with my dogs, but it’s that they love and respect him more than they do me. I don’t care either, because I’ve always lived with dogs and female dogs always respect males more in a pack and I know they view him as a pack member. As long as they jump when I say jump, I don’t care what they think of him.
Mine misses dead fuel sources – human or dog – but he doesn’t grieve. Just a little sadness when he’s reminded about them being gone.
It made me laugh thinking about my exhusband fearing “attaching and having to sacrifice a part of himself!” He’d laugh too at that!
Chihuahuamum – Mine had a couple of cats in his past and he remembers them with fondness and I thought he cared about them but you bring out a good point.
Chihuahuamum,
Your situation crossed my mind just the other day because I was thinking about what would happen if I let myself be hoovered (I know I know, ET). I remembered you commenting somewhere a while back that the “thrill” was gone a bit for you the more you learn about NPD. I wondered how that is going for you and if you could share? I’m thinking this would be the case for me too if I was interacting with my narc now, knowing all I know and being able to see through the manipulations as they occur. Is the “relationship” still satisfying to you? Is it less hurtful? I hope you don’t mind me asking.
Ha ha ha…..this was amusing. The narcissist doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anyone except him/herself. The narcissist is the epitome of solipsism.
Never; the narcissist only knows how to pretend to care.
It’s very tricky to answer this one. Because again, narcissism is on a spectrum and some of us may not have dealt with people with full blown NPD and but those that operate with higher narcissistic traits or tendencies. So the level of “caring” can range with some that can emote more cognitive empathy like some of Windstorm’s relatives that see the benefit of socially functioning in society and being “civilized”. Then those that operate on a level of control at all costs and rage and get violent.
I think they “care” in the sense of protecting what it is important to maintaining the facade and construct. Which is ultimately they care for what benefits them in the end. But if a relationship whether significant other, DLS, sibling, relative, etc., if it maintains their construct to appear “normal” and makes them feel good and this person manages to stay “white” in the narc’s thinking, then I believe the Narc will think he does care from his mindset on what he / she can give. And they will believe wholeheartedly that it is genuine care because the majority are unaware.
Nicely said clarece. Truth
I chose “Pretends to care,” but more accurate in my case, it would be: “Shows a high degree of [only] cognitive empathy.”
When dating him, if I got tears in my eyes, he’d immediately pick up on it and very softly say something like, “Aw…I can see the hurt in your eyes.”
Then he’d pull me into him, and hold me, or tenderly kiss me.
At the time, it seemed caring and sweet — but I also remember this uneasy feeling… like it excited him.
Now I know why.
It was fuel.
Hey Caroline,
I hope your well lovely, I resisted the urge to love bomb this post lol… but wanted to say hiya… minus the high pitch annoying voice…. And also to give an observation of your post, which I thought was great btw..
He probably wanted to believe that they were caused by him and that he effected you, when it could have been that you were just responding to an emotional scene on a tv programme about those monobrowed orphans….
he made it about him by interjecting into that moment, whether it was or was not originally about him. Again your gut instincts told you it was not as it seemed.. and fuel is the rule…
Qx
Hi, sweetie Quasi~I’m having major techie problems. All the posts on this thread have “break bars” (—–) throughout, and only portions of the words are readable. So sad. 🙁 Even to “reply post” this to you, I had to go offline and write in a draft folder (and copy/paste it back on the site).
So… I’m missing all the great empathic comments on the always fun/worthwhile poll thread, boo hoo…if it doesn’t magically fix itself, I’ll have to call my trusty tech friend. He’s a doll, but I hate bothering him with this… again.
Anyway, what I could glean from your post was you “proper Brit girl love bombed me” (Love ya!)… asked how I am, I think (I’ve been extra busy but am fine/keeping the narcissist at bay by strange means, fingers crossed – but on-guard)… and then you said something about the narcissist and my being his orphan (yeah, I really need to see ALL the words on the posts, lol!). But I know whatever you said is great, supportive and interesting, so thank ya. 🙂
Despite my tech trouble, “HG and the Empaths” are looking robust in their communicating, which means a lot of laughs, kindnesses, support, wake-up calls and adorable-ness is going on. That makes me abundantly happy, as I run late for work.
I hope all is well with you, my Brit friend~may enlightenment + peace abound for all you dear empaths here today, to give + receive…and extra hugs and kisses to you for your day, Quasi!:-)
***I don’t know in what manner this will post; my apologies to the thread***
Caroline, you are so amazingly hilarious! There is a definite need to sort your tech out lovely… although the mis-interpretation due to the breaks in text has also proved very amusing… his orphan….lol…
I was essentially checking in with you to see how your doing and to love bomb you … just because!
I’m glad the narcissist is being kept at bay, and your ok.
Take care lovely Caroline, I will be looking out for your awesome, kind hearted, funny as **** posts. They make my day and make me smile every time..
Qxx
Quasi~
OMG, LOL… my guy friend is here, and I’ve showed him what’s wrong… so he pulled up some sidebar thing (pinged from my inbox), and he could see your comment and said: “You have a chick in a pink dress hitting on you? Damn, I’ve been trying to sleep with you for years.”
WTH? Nah, there’s no way…he’s like a brother to me! Seriously, like my brother. I’ve asked him 4 times if he’s kidding. He looks and me and laughs. I told him it’s an APRICOT dress, not pink (why can’t males see colors?).
Wow, I really am not paying careful attention, if he’s serious…he’s pressuring me to send what I’m typing, so he can get back to more techie business. Mind blown this evening, feeling weird (really, he’s got to be kidding… we’re like brother-sister, seriously we are).
Ohhhh Caroline…..
Well if your hot to match your phenomenal character/ personality- then I’m pretty sure he meant it! Even then I am not surprised if he likes you purely for your character and humour.. regardless of your gorgeousness!
he was clearly jealous of my Brit girl love bombing you from afar! So he laid it on the line… sorry lovely who knew that our silly banter would evoke such a response from him..
sometimes when people are close to us we do not see it, especially if you do not see him in that way..
I didn’t have a radar for people liking me in that way either , I was completely oblivious..
I am friendly and literally talk to anyone and everyone, ( not so much now unsurprisingly) this is probably why I literally read no signs that the narcissist had any other intentions then being my friend initially. I was blind to thinking anyone would find me attractive. Of course for the narcissist it doesn’t have to be about attractiveness so I guess that’s not a great example lol…. as long as I’m not in the unfortunately faced category, then I’m ok with that … lol..
hang on just checking my forehead…. nope no monobrow !
Symmetrical face and no warts ! That will do… lol..
I guess the point is that it’s odd for you as you know him and think of him in a platonic way, so him thinking differently has offset what you felt the relationship is.
I would advocate a conversation with him to be clear that for you it’s as it was, but thank you for the compliment.. because it is a nice compliment. Even if it unsettles the dynamic for a while. I wouldn’t avoid the conversation as It will become more of a thing the longer it is unsaid… believe me -that the truth!!!
( I’m quite amused that he thought a headless lady in an apricot striped dress suspended over the sea was hitting on you though…. and that the whole context of the narcissist conversation didn’t seem odd to him…)
As always Caroline I have been in stitches – your are amazeballs !
Qxx
You’re so precious, Quasi…I adore you. Oh my gosh, there are so many things I want to reply back to on what you just wrote, but I’m so private (and can get oddly shy) about some things, so it’s like I want a “one-on-one” private chat option on this site~ LOL. It’s not that I want to exclude anyone~but even though this is anonymous, I still am schoolgirl shy about some stuff. I’m complex… I’m not like this on purpose!
I can’t even remember what thread this is that I’m replying to right now because parts are still blocked for me (the techie dude is not done fixing my tech problem – coming back tonight again)… oh crap — I think this is the “caring” poll thread, right? Oh, good job “Caroline-feels-fine” — pick the thread with the most people to view my absurdly goofy comment.
I wish I didn’t have this part to me – because telling you some things would probably help me!
Can everyone look away, and can HG just not read a few of my comments? LOL…I know, not possible.
But a “privacy booth chat” where everyone else on the site can only see the 2 participants would be interesting + funny. 🙂
Caroline ..
I would love to be able to do that too … but I don’t think it’s possible as we are not allowed to provide our personal details publicly. I have a wordpress account that I would give you access to ( although boring as I don’t blog, I only purchased a package with them so I could participate more on narcsite)
I think you would need one too for that to work.. I would ask if HG can forward you my email address, but I’m sure that’s probably not allowed and he has enough to do without asking this..
If there are things you think would be helpful to tell me then write it out on paper or a separate word doc, address it too me if you like, even though I can’t respond you can at least express what you are thinking. That may help anyway Caroline, especially if there is some more complex feelings or aspects of the situation.
It’s not a goofy comment by the way, it’s sweet and real!
Again making me smile, my dimples are aching, from all that smiling!
Qxx
Get a room you two! 🙂 Seriously, here’s a suggestion: if you really want to know each other, go on Facebook with your real name and profile (e.g. not like a narc), ‘like’ Knowing the Narcissist on Facebbook, and post who you are. You’ll find each other that way and then you can unlike Knowing the N and no one will be the wiser for it.
Quasi
If you have a WordPress blog, can’t people request to follow it, even if you don’t post? Each of you make up new email addresses with no personal details. That’s what I do. Use these only for each other and abandon them if others intrude. I use my dogs email and even invented a fake street address for him for PayPal.
Hi windstorm,
Thank you for this, I will check with Caroline if she can request to follow, I’m not sure if she has a WordPress account or not, and if that is needed to request to follow. I’m so clueless about WordPress, I literally only got an account to post here ..
I could create a new email and just have that in the details that show guess ? It’s a private one so I got the impression that people could only see one page for info and that only has my user name. I will see what I can do.
Thank you again,
Qx
No worries, sweet Quasi! 🙂 I’ll make do on the site, which I’m grateful for… I’m technically challenged as it is (Ahem, Exhibit 1!), and as thoughtful as WS’s suggestion is, I’d also be too concerned about you creating a blog and all that entails.
My current tech problem is almost resolved. 🙂 And I’m way OT for thread, so apologies, HG.
Thanks for all the sweetness + support, Quasi and WS!:-)
Cool beans, cool beans ! .. it’s been a pleasure as always chatting with you Caroline.. I like our comical banter .. I can get too serious here sometimes so it’s nice to laugh with you. Qxx
It’s good to dig deep/be serious and reflective… and also be able to lighten up/brighten up with smiles+laughter.
You have a good balance, Quasi.:-)
XO!
I wasn’t sure which of these to pick. The one I went with is way down in the voting – “Yes, if there’s going to be a downside or adverse effect on the narcissist.” Like they care if we die, because they will lose our residual benefits. Of course they never love us or care about our feelings. In that way the care is ultimately just for themselves.
I was remembering just the other day of a conversation with one of my narc cousins not long after her codependent mother had died of breast cancer. Her mother, my most beloved aunt, had really wanted to live. She’d undergone multiple surgeries, radiation and chemo.
My cousin shocked me by saying that she would never forgive her mother for dying of breast cancer and depriving her family of her help and presence. When I pointed out the lengths she had gone to in order to stay alive for them, my cousin responded. Well, she should have checked herself better and gotten to a doctor earlier. Then maybe they could have saved her. I’ll never forgive her for that!
I know my cousin cared that her mother died. She cared because there was an adverse impact on herself. She cared that she had lost all the help her mother constantly had provided to her. In that way she did care about her mother. It just wasn’t love or the way empaths care.
I would like you to tell me the answer to this, HG. Because I really don’t know.
Sandra, keep reading HG’s articles and it will soon become apparent that they only care about something which affects them. X
Id also be interested HG if you can remember a time you cared about someone? Genuinely cared?
Never, the Narcissist only knows how to pretend to care.
Answering this has showed me I am healing and logical thinking is winning.
I didn’t vote.
I believe they care durning the infatuation stage, could be one minute, one day, or one year. Both parties are getting the positive from each other, emotional thinking clouds both sides of the spectrum In the beginning, a Greater thou knows once the boredom comes to play things are going downhill for the empath and blames the empath for failing, this is also when their emotional thinking shifts the blame onto the partner due to not being able to bond, either instinctively or consciously. It is not their fault and it is someone else’s fault for this, anger and jealousy come into play which breeds envy and contempt and only learning one way in dealing with these emotions……depending on the school depends on the action taken.
As a non-native English speaking lawyer I found it difficult to respond without clear definition of word “care” in this context. Does a lioness care about the little zebra it wants to have for lunch? yes. It has to be slower and separated from the herd. All attention is on the zebra now. Does a lioness care about her cubs? She sure does but it is not the same thing. I was involved with two narcissistic individuals and I am almost sure the third one is coming my way. Do they care? I believe that they do care at the very beginning, and express simultaneously both types of caring as the lioness in the example above. Care for zebra ends when it is cought and killed or when it keeps running because the lions may be sprinters but have no endurance. Care for the cubs ends when they grow older or when they disappear for whatever reason, there is no grief, and next mating season is just around the corner. So yes, the narcisst care in their own way to the extent their nature aloows them to. It is admirable. It is like a fish that you ask to fly. It can spring out of the water and be in the air for a secon before gravity pulls it back down to water. Fish gave its best shot. It should be applauded. for that But if I want to fly, I will rather ask an eagle to accompany me on this journey. I went through hell during my relationships with the narcissists. This third one (that I still give certain benefit of the doubt) makes me feel like shit, too. But I cannot bring myself to hate them, be angry. When they bother me for too long, I wound them where I know it hurts. But they always return. They are worse than rats. Rats always learn where they got hurt or poisoned and do not return there. Damn, why is this third one probably also one of them? I quite like him.
I think you did a fine job of expressing your opinion Izabela, and I enjoyed reading your post.
I was not going to respond to this as it evoked reflection again, maybe this is the point. But it is an important question, an open question that will stimulate reflection and debate.. As ever it will be entirely related to perspective.
To care – to feel concern or interest, attach importance to something.
Does he ever care?
I selected -“sometimes, it depends on a number of factors.”
I believe that the narcissist cares for his needs and wants, he cares for his goals and ambitions. He cares about wining, he cares about proving his power over others. He cares about his ability to observe his impact on others. He cares about others opinions and expressions of him until they go off script. He cares about getting attention and validation. He cares about causing reactions in people, he cares about the world giving him what he is entitled to. He cares about being remembered by people, he cares about being important.
Does he care about others?
I believe that this is dependent on the Individual and their cognitive functioning, insight and understanding of their emotions.
I believe that they can attach interest or importance to “something “ but not “someone” as this would indicate a person being someone to them. I guess if you flip to the narcissist perspective the person is a something, an object. So by this definition they can care for them, show interest and attach importance to them ( when they are functioning in their role effectively).
For the mid ranger I knew, I believe he genuinely thought he cared for people, that he loved them even without trusting them. I believe that he thought it was care and love because at the time he felt it, he felt good, “I feel good with them, so they must be good, it must be love”. Because to him feelings are fact.
He told me that I “felt good”, initially I thought this was his inarticulate way of saying I felt good to him physically. When in fact I believe this truly meant that I made HIM feel good for that moment in time. That the accomplishment of his aims made him feel powerful and good.
In truth he can only guess based on his reactions to people, how they are interacting with him and how this makes him feel within that moment in time, good, bad, aroused, stimulated.
He was not taught love, or nurtured with love or care as a child, his needs were not met then.
He would be blind to love as he could not feel it now, he has no point of reference, no comparator.
Love and care is felt, love and care is in actions not words.
From my perspective, I do not believe he can care in the way that the verb -care means to me. Not for others anyway. They would need to be seen as people, acknowledging their heart, soul, being as an individual.
Care for himself – damn right he does, well if no one else does he has to! He is protecting himself by looking after himself, by putting himself first. He had to learn to do this.
The narcissist will extrapolate, exaggerate, and lie instinctively to serve their own purpose. Can you do this with care for the other person as a motivator in your mind?
This poll has effectively affected me. The question of his caring was the fundamental, core want.
I wanted him to care, I wanted him to respect me, I wanted him to see me as important.
For the empath dealing with a narcissist “I want, doesn’t get”.
Great post quasi!
Thank you ladies I appreciate that.
I definitely did the “stop saying anything at all” thing, which some would see as a fricking miracle !
But it’s that thing of what’s the point?
Well expressed Quasi.
We have a saying “don’t ask, don’t get”.
With narcs it’s a case of
“do ask, don’t get….
eventually stop asking.
Eventually stop saying anything”.
I just love your answer Quasi.It sins it up perfectly.
Thank you star.. I appreciate that.
And I like a good sin ..lol..
Read this again today Quasi, you write so well.
“the question of his caring was the fundamental, core want.”
I had such a strong and pain-filled reaction to suddenly hearing Rhianna’s ‘Only Girl In the World’ this weekend. The pain of being unloved, disrespected and unimportant came rushing up from the depths of my soul. Every cell in my body decrying the fraud, the injustice, and still longing. Such is my female psyche.
I can’t separate love and sex. I don’t want to.
I bring my whole self to the relationship.
Oh how I wish he would.
Or could.
Thank you Caroline,
We can do so much damage to ourselves, with thought processes linked to the whys and what if’s.
Stop and breathe..
The only thing we can truly focus on is what was, recognising it was not what we wanted or needed, and it never will be with that person as they will not change.
Remembering that you were real and true to who you are ! The fact that he could not be real for you is not your fault, and you could not have done anything differently to change that. It was as it was, and you have learnt what you do and do not want from a relationship… you won’t settle for this shit again.
Maybe stop listening to Rihanna lol…
try this one
https://youtu.be/9f5zD7ZSNpQ
“If you need a hero just look into the mirror, no ones gonna save you now so you better save yourself..”
“The sun will come out, nothing good ever comes easy, after the storm the flowers bloom”
( it’s also got a amazing bass riff, as it’s bootsy Collins !! )
Keep on moving on Caroline …. just keep moving it will change for you.
This is a question that still haunts me as of today… I believe in the beginning that I was his new shining toy that he thought I could be the one, I feel he wanted to care, yet in reality he is incapable, As I look back from his eyes ( I always wanted to get into his mind, fascinating you see, even though the evilness is quite disgusting) I realize that no he never cared, it was all for his pleasure and needs, he cared about control, what others think, he cared about material things, he supposedly cares about his daughter hahahah (yet I fully believe because it is a possession and a part of him in which she is superior only because she is him) the point is any selfish, egotistical, abusive ect…rarely shows emotion unless rage or lust cannot really care, although I always wanted to believe he did… in my heart I know he does not care and never did, even though he might of had delusionall thoughts of caring they clearly were not real, I also think he believes he cared and of course I let him down ahhhhh so sad, isn’t it?
To comment more on my vote, I think for the lesser and possibly for the midrange narc, they think they do which is why they get so shocked when you tell them that they don’t. They care in the only way they know how. But in the end, they don’t understand that they don’t truly care in the normal sense of the word.
I agree with you, Linderien. My Mid-Ranger was shocked when I accused him of not caring. He actually responded with, ‘I don’t know how you can say that when I am still here.’
The ‘still here’ comment was in reference to my incessant neediness, emotionalism and fear of abandonment that he continually threw back at me. If I had a problem, he would ‘listen’ but not really. There was always a coldness to him, a detachment, and I could tell he was doing it out of obligation.
Yet during that time there was never a moment when he wasn’t being deceptive. (Lying about his name and identity, failing to remember my birthday years in a row, and on and on etc.)
This is why it is so important to push away the emotional thinking and not imbue more concern into them than what is really there. They imbue malice (via projection) and we imbue goodness.
I started paying attention to the actions and how the words never matched up and also listening to my instinct that something was wrong. If you have to wonder if someone cares all the time, chances are they don’t.
Bibi, My mid ranger also lied about his name and marital status. He also said something similar along the lines of caring because he was there, and I also went through a very rough patch of neediness, emotionalism and fear of abandonment. For a month he didn’t shelve me. But I don’t think it was because he cared about me. Nor was he doing it out of obligation. I think he was afraid 1) that I would out him to IPPS; 2) that I would leave. Eventually I did both because he couldn’t sustain the ‘caring’ bit. He also could not remember my birthday and when I reminded him, it took him two hours to get a simple ‘happy birthday’ out. I put never, only pretends to care. But I am not even sure that he pretends.
I agree with both of you Liderien and Bibi – they think what they do is actually caring. It is not even pretending – although I chose that option – it is accurate what you say Liderien:
“…in the end, they don’t understand that they don’t truly care in the normal sense of the word.”
And I agree with you Bibi – I’ve witnessed the “shocked” reaction too when you point out where their priority is when are trying to “care.”
I think they fully believe that they care and don’t understand the motivation behind their chosen way to ‘show’ how they care. (At least mid-rangers.) They don’t understand that they are *not* demonstrating emotional support and believe that they are. The ensuing interaction when I tried to point this out to one of my narcs that her way of “helping” demonstrated that she was putting things before people was very insightful.
HG, do you ‘interpret’ isolated scenarios? (Where it’s already been determined that you’re dealing with a narc.) Because I’m fairly good at no contact (at least to the best of my ability given my situation) but I obsess over certain instances where I reflect on what the dynamics were because things went so bizarre…and I wonder why I did/say the things that I did and what was happening that caused their particular behaviour. I’m asking because I feel like if I could ‘let go’ of certain events I would be better off…
Yes, I absolutely do do that. I can decipher the instances for you, so long as your emotional thinking has lowered to a level where the logical explanation can take root in your mind, otherwise it is pointless me explaining.
Thank-you, I believe my emotional thinking was lowered at the time and has lowered more as of late.
SMH:
I never really understood the lying about the name. Even years later I can’t fathom why anyone would do such a thing. Even just having an online ‘alias’ is one thing, but then telling someone once you got to know them–he never even did that. I never learned his real name until 2.5 yrs into the friendship.
And he never actually told me, I had to pull it out of him, ask questions, things did not make sense, etc. Once I learned his real name, I can say the Golden Period was over and never returned.
Multiple years in a row he forgot my b-day and I am not expecting some gift, merely an email or even asking me about it. Nothing.
I was thinking about it recently and how what I really ‘loved’ about him was his mirroring projection of me in the beginning. That idealized version of myself–he projected how I wanted to be seen and understood.
Then I got addicted to that self-image, which of course, he took away in the devaluation, hence making it all the more painful.
But during the devaluation he often liked to say how he couldn’t trust me yet he was the one lying. I then began jumping through hoops tying to ‘earn; and ‘prove’ myself, show I was worthy. I became some sort of trained monkey.
All because I wanted him to reflect back that image of me he gave in the beginning, since I lacked feeling that way about myself.
Therein resides the core problem.
Bibi, wow. 2.5 years. I discovered mine’s name a few months in, but I had only seen him a few times and he gave me the hints. He wasn’t a great liar. I think the third time I saw him, he had forgotten the name he had initially told me. LOL. I then had his first name. I didn’t really care because I thought it was a fling so I didn’t do my research for his surname until a month or two after that. In any case, he had a plausible reason for lying (seriously he did), he apologized but never asked me how I found out. It didn’t change anything between us.
The birthday thing – it was weird. He never told me his and so never expected anything from me (I was IPSS). When he would not say HB, it was like dealing with a toddler, but I made him stay until he said it, and he finally did. It was like he was teasing me but he contacted me on what was not a normal day for us (a weekend, as I recall), so I believe he did it all on purpose to see if he could get some fuel. Instead, I played along.
I think these types have tremendous trust issues – issues that we cannot even imagine. They wear their narcissism like armor and it is almost impossible to pierce. Mine always trusted me to be there when I said I would be, for instance, but he did not trust feelings – his or mine. So we try to create a ‘safe space’ because they do appear vulnerable. Maybe that is what you mean by jumping through hoops. I felt the same way. But in the end I realized that it did not matter what I did – because they are so ‘separate’ nothing anyone else does makes any difference to how they behave.
One does need to get one’s ‘self’ back after an experience like this!!
No. They do not care about other people. They only care about what people do for them. My narc did not love me but he loved that I loved him. The way I lived him. The adoration I gave him. Nothing more.
I had the same narc
It’s crazy but I feel like when he says it he believe it to be true although it isn’t and his actions say something different and it can change from one day to the next. It’s mind fucking
Sometimes I think they genuinely would like to care, just that they cannot [care like I expect that they should care] – this is just part of who they are. I love my narcissist friend dearly and I know that he has some ‘personal feelings for me’, just not the ‘regular’feelings others might have.
I wish he did care. It is so difficult for me to imagine that it’s possible for someone to not care at all. But I’ve experienced it. I’ve seen two dead eyes staring at me when I was crying and asking for an explanation. I’ve felt it during the silent treatment. I’ve noticed it, when I told something personal, and didn’t get any response. The only loving, caring words he ever used, were actually mine. Stolen. Copied. I would literally hear my own words back. So, definitely, he only knows how to pretend to care. And that is frustrating, because I know that my rants, my attempts to get closure, were falling on deaf ears. As if he cares…it’s just some more free fuel.
Still, I wish he did care. I wish I was that super special person, that had the abilty to make a narcissist care. I guess that’s a little magical thinking from my side.
Hi Rachel,
I believe that your instincts answered your question thoughts. What you felt and observed informed you of the reality that your heart did not want to see.
A want to be cared for is totally natural and a human instinct. It is what the narcissist wants too. In my view it is the only want that we may share with them, the want to be wanted and to be important to the other person.
This may or may not help, but a thought process that I replayed in my mind to help me push past my want for his approval and to care for me was this-
“He does not care, he can not care, he is not built to care. People have no true meaning ( significance) for him, as such his opinion of me has no meaning, substance or worth”
When he constantly triangulated and baited me it was most often with people he knew I cared for, he would pick where it could hurt the most. He would like their posts and comment, tag them in things knowing that they mattered to me and I would see it on my daily news feed.
When I knew what he was but before disengagement, I did not respond to this, I would tell myself it’s all fake, nothing is real here, it’s words, it’s pretend likes when he doesn’t actually give a shit, it’s subtle conditioning and manipulation. It’s a narcissist! I didn’t want his fake likes as they didn’t mean anything, I didn’t want his pretend words because they didn’t mean anything, I didn’t need his validation to know my worth or the worth of my opinions.
Then he cut me out ( unfriended but not blocked) …that hurt..
but again it was a hurt I could heal over time and allowing myself to feel what I felt. I stoped myself responding to him as I knew his fake words would not mean anything, his actions always told me what I needed to know, his fake words meant nothing.
We all do magical thinking, it is based in what we want, what we hope for and expect to a certain extent.
You will get there Rachel, everything you have felt has been real, because you are real.. you will heal, and this will be felt, but you will see the shifts over time.
Give yourself time, and most importantly be kind to yourself and validate your emotions because they are totally normal and there to tell you something was wrong. They will also tell you when something is right..
Thank you for your reply! That’s my new mantra: He does not care, he can not care, he is not built o care…
Only if it affects them
Yes, so long as there is something in it for them. My MLV narc would get really attentive close to his birthday or Christmas. He always talks up those people who provide residual benefits, such as buying him gifts. He would pour me drinks and bring them to the pool when I visited early on or whenever there was a family event. I do believe his instincts alert him when it is in his best interests to show he “cares”.
Your final comment is brilliant .
Thank you, G xx
This is difficult to answer. I believe like the “narc spectrum” you have delineated, their positive feelings do manifest at different times with regards to different relationship dynamics. For example, the familial narc sibling extends only a simmering disdain for me, but for her adult children, it seems there is nothing she would not do to protect them. Her husband is also revered, as he provides her a comfortable life. I can’t deny the authenticity of these feelings, despite their motivations being ultimately self-serving for the narc. As you have stated HG, once painted black there is no return. I suppose the people the narc really has genuine feelings for are granted a much higher threshold so as never to venture into the “black zone”.
As epathetic as we are, we wanted them to care but in all reality they do not. It is their twisted version of caring which in fact is nothing more than self-serving. As a survivor of this type of horrific, devastating relationship, their persona is a fake, phony Broadway show. They do not care, they are able to care and they will never care .
It won’t let me vote, only shows the polled answers. I vote for “Never, the narcissist only knows how to pretend to care.”
I knew the correct answer was “never, they can only pretend”. But my magical thinking made me vote that yes, they can care as long as you’re painted white. I flunked the test HG.
MB
I don’t believe this is a test, only an opinion. You didn’t flunk anything. Our perspective is different then theirs and what we see as caring and they see as caring can be two different views, yet both “care” , intentions behind things is where the difference is.
Thank you Twilight. There is the way I want things to be and then there is the way things are. As I thought about this particular poll, I imagined it was sort of a test to gauge how our learning is progressing. Tests are just as much for the teacher’s benefit as for the student’s.
Your welcome.
IMO a good teacher doesn’t give test to see if one flunks but to give one an opportunity to gauge their progress on the subject and to see where things are/ need to be tweak to improve how they teach.
I see we are both seeing things the same way, just wording it differently.
HG is an excellent teacher!
I agree MB, he is.
Yes !
There is no flunking MB, only learning and developing. Express yourself say what you think and feel.. your awesome! Qx
The only thing the narcissist cares about is himself or herself. They become experts on pretending that they care. My ex was a totally different person when we were around other people. He was a covert narcissist. His image was and still is the most important thing in his life. He has to be loved by others. He loves to hear “I love you” being said to him. He will say it just you will say it back to him. Everything is about making himself feel good and you hurting. He can pretend, and others can’t see through his mask, but I can. Now, I can.
You dated my ex haha! Same story , same faker
As told by himself . ..go ahead and leave I dont care…. I don’t care about anyone but myself … and I swear he hissed it…
Of course they care . They care to know they have power and that is it .