The Support Forum Fraud


There are many online support forums that exist with regard to the issue of narcissism and narcissistic abuse.

I have previously moved amongst the shadows of these blogs, Facebook sites, Twitter pages and so forth, observing and absorbing the behaviours that I have witnessed. There are those which provide information. Others are the cathartic disclosures of victims who are seeking to warn as well as recount their own horrors alongside their journey or recovery. There are others which are there to assist people in healing from the trauma they have suffered. The quality and reliability of them varies. Amidst the proliferation of support forums lurk our kind.

There is no doubt that our kind inhabit these places. Indeed, from time to time Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have appeared and frequented my blog. Easy for me to spot, but less so for others. Naturally, narcissists appear at other sites and forums, commenting and interacting. Those narcissists will gain some fuel from the interaction with the people on that forum, but more specifically they will look to befriend a fellow commenter or two and take their interaction off blog and onto private messaging, the telephone, Skype and ultimately meeting in person. The Tertiary Source becomes a secondary source and the provision of fuel increases in potency, quantity and frequency. A separate article will cover that type of interaction.

The narcissist also operates on these support forums in a different capacity ; that of moderator, administrator or host.

How does this manifest?

First of all, if a Greater operates such a forum then he or she will be open about the fact, confirm what they are and explain much about the way we think and operate. These sites are extremely rare. Greaters are very rare and those which operate sites similar to mine are even rarer. However, those that do exist make it clear what the site is and who is operating it. This rarity and the common misunderstanding that all narcissists do not know what they are, leads some people to regard such sites in a mistaken manner.

Secondly, a Lesser would not operate such a forum. He or she has no idea what he or she is and being utterly devoid of empathy (including cognitive empathy), it would never occur to the Lesser to devise such a site. They have no interest in appearing as a saintly figure and they have no desire to listen to the woes of others. The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.

Thirdly, it is the Mid-Ranger who poses the problem with regard to the creation and running of these forums. Why the Mid-Ranger? Again, he or she does not know what she is but these sites appeal to them because:-

  1. They are able to engage in their façade management. The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person. It is other people who are the horrible, abusive narcissists. Not them.
  2. The site gives them an excellent vehicle to sound off about their own perceived mis-treatment. The Mid Ranger loves a good Pity Party, Compassion Conference or Sympathy Symposium and those that interact with these people buy into this.
  3. It enables them to continue a campaign against those the Mid Range Narcissist perceives as the abuser. Thus the ex-girlfriend, the parents, the boss or the once upon a time best friend, all find themselves routinely smeared and the validation that the site’s readers provides to the Mid Range Narcissist only goes to consolidate in their minds that they are a good person and that they are truly the victim.

The Mid Ranger is the narcissist who you will find operating these forums (or fora if you prefer) . Of course not all of the online support forums are operated by our kind, far from it, but there is a noticeable presence by our kind. Indeed, I have had many of my readers express their concerns and suspicions about certain sites and their provenance, based on their experiences there and what they have witnessed.

This is difficult for people to recognise. They will have some familiarity naturally with the idea of narcissism, since why else are they at a narcissist abuse support forum?! However, it is highly likely that their skills have not yet become attuned to recognising our kind and certainly not this particular wolf in sheep’s clothing.

What then are the indicators which show that a narcissist is operating the site (or is involved as a moderator or administrator)? Based on what I have witnessed at certain sites, you should be aware of the following

  1. Invalidation. The subject of narcissism is both emotive and complex and therefore people have various experiences, opinions and theories. Some may simply be incorrect. Some may be based on a misunderstanding. Some however remain valid because that is the experience of the individual. The Support Forum Fraud (“SFF”) will reject out of hand the experience of the reader or commenter if it disagrees with, is at odds with or contradicts something stated by the SFF. Rather than recognising a difference of opinion, or politely explaining why the reader’s view is mistaken, the SFF will be dismissive.
  2. Aggressive. If the reader holds their ground with the SFF then they will be treated in an aggressive fashion. The reader is not insulting or provocative and merely states their view. They are treated to an aggressive response from the SFF. This is the manifestation of the MRN’s ignited fury. They will be told they know nothing, that they are being ridiculous, that the SFF knows far better and reminded that the SFF operates the forum.
  3. Labelling. The SFF will label the reader as an abuser or as a narcissist. I have seen this happen on many occasions and is a rapid dose of projection designed to put down, invalidate and insult the reader.
  4. The Labelling also has a further effect. It acts as a call to arms to other readers to launch into an attack against the hapless reader. The SFF expects their readership to gang up on this ‘narcissist’ and tell them what they are and drum them from the forum. Who are those who respond to this clarion call of the SFF? They belong to two groups  ; other narcissists and mis-guided victims. The former group of course do not know what they are. The Lessers will see it as an excellent opportunity for some verbal abuse provocation. The Mid Rangers will see it as a chance to curry favour with the host and demonstrate their own credentials as a ‘good’ person. The Mis-Guided Victims (often newbies) are still very hurt by their experience and their inexperience and current world view causes them to lash out at someone who they have mistakenly seen as a narcissist. It is an easy mistake for them to make, after all, they are still learning and the supposed guru of the host has declared this person to be a narcissist, so it must be true. There will be those, those who are more experienced and empathic who will defend the reader, recognising they are not a narcissist and that the person is entitled to express their opinion. They will be set on also and therefore this often causes others to avoid the fray to begin with.
  5. The host will engage in repeated recollections of their own horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. It will be like a daily sermon as they rail against this person with a zealous enthusiasm which lasts for far too long for that of a genuine victim.
  6. The host having identified a supposed narcissist on the site will not let the matter go. If the reader remains (or is allowed to remain) on the site, they will be repeatedly branded and subjected to passive aggressive remarks. Even once gone or banished, they will be made mention of by the SFF.
  7. The SFF will also make repeated reference to their “online attackers” or their “trolls” in order to gain sympathy from readers. These supposed attackers remain vague and amorphous in identity because they often do not exist, but they are a perception of the SFF.
  8. The SFF will dole out the Pity Plays in order to gain the sympathy and support of their readers. Whilst they will repeatedly make mention of how badly they have been treated by the ‘narcissist’ they were ensnared by, they will also make such comments as “I don’t why I bother doing this at times” and “I am sick of not being appreciated” and “some of you have no idea how much effort this takes”.
  9. Waterworks. If the SFF uses videos on the site or has a YouTube presence then the crocodile, self-pitying tears will flow. Those whose tears are genuine either will not post material containing them (they do not want people to see or regard it as unprofessional) or if they do it is clear it is genuine. The SFF’s waterworks will be forced as they summon up the tears. They will switch them on and off like the flicking of the switch. Once you know what to look for, you will see them.
  10. There is a lack of originality in the material. The SFF can only pose as the supposed empathic supporter of the abused not through actual experience or emotional empathy but through mimicry. Accordingly, the material that is placed on the site will be drawn from elsewhere. Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.
  11. There will be passive aggressive comments made towards the commenters and readers. Again, this is not always obvious to newcomers, but those with experience will soon spot this indicator and allied with points above the picture becomes clear.
  12. Sudden blocking. A reader will find themselves blocked from the site without any explanation or understanding as to what they have done. This passive aggressive response will arise because the SFF has perceived some behaviour of the reader which is unacceptable and thus wounded, has lashed out with this cold fury by providing a Silent Treatment.

Over time, the aggregate of these behaviours will demonstrate the true nature of the person operating the site and you will then realise just who is really behind the supposed caring, empathic persona.

You may have found yourself on the receiving end of such behaviour previously. Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?


118 thoughts on “The Support Forum Fraud

  1. Ana says:

    “Being against evil men does not make you good” Earnest Hemmingway. I’ve ignored so many things while trying to reach out to others who have been through what I did. My goal was, and still is to help people know that they alone can save themselves. But it has been taken in such a very wrong way, since people get suspicious overtime. I believe in respecting a person’s individuality so its not my place to condemn someone from having an opinion even if I don’t agree with them. If it’s bs you are feeding, however, I don’t have a problem speaking up. I came to the realization that, there is a spotlight in some of these groups. You can become a threat if the material you contribute takes the spotlight off of some people. Not wanting to share this spotlight is a red flag i’ve ignored. Certain things do not add up. Walking on eggshells. Feeling uninvited to participate in discussions. “The cold fury” of being blocked from commenting, without any explanation, does indeed exist. It screams, malice; you disagree with me so you are a trouble maker. Which being a thoroughly self aware person, is frustrating to comprehend! I believe that you don’t deserve a point of view if the only thing you see is you. I agree with your analysis of the magnet empath and the lesser narcissist cannot work out! I believe that there are so many who live in a fear of what they brag about in and out of these groups. I have no one else but myself to blame my naive thinking. And I also cannot understand how some people who have claimed to suffer under the narcissist, treat others as an extension of themselves? How could they not be playing God when they are daily making a choice to practice power without humility. I’ve learn my lesson. Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing. Your analysis here was thourough, insightful and elightening as always. It’s ironic how this may be one of the most genuine pages on facebook!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  2. Newby 1111 says:

    OMG……such drama!! This site, this definition, this victim, Narcissisim, Schizoid,, lessor narc, psychopaths, sociopath, borderline. I have been studying this stuff non stop for a year now, and am more confused than ever. I think I am taking the tent and heading to the backwoods where the clarity of nature prevails. When I focus on all these disorders, those are the people I am meeting. Enough is enough!!

  3. Anm says:

    In my opinion… victims narcissist expose themselves with the black and white thinking that all narcissist have. I was chatting online with someone who claimed she divorced a narcissist, and she was the victim/empath. Through my discernment, I actually believe she was a victim narcissist. We were talking about how during a divorce/custody battle, sometimes family members will side with the narcissist. She views her family members who sided with the ex as traitors. I told her how my sister who is a codependent sided with my ex narcissist during my custody battle. I forgave my sister because she tends to always fall for aiding narcissist and regretting in later. She is even married to a lesser and deals with conflict all of the time. And just because you forgive someone, you still have to be cautious. Even if I forgive my codependent sister, i dont trust her. I would never give her information that could be played back to my ex. The victim narcissist was furious of the thought of forgiveness, she said I was stupid, and my family were all traitors like hers, “whoah me!!”

  4. Mar says:

    Hello HC
    If I were a Victim MRN and not an Empath as I think I am… How could I become aware of it?
    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You would not.

      1. Mar says:

        So If I am an Empath as I think I am, how can I double check that I am not MRN?

        Anyway if I am open enough for asking feedback and I were told I am MRN then I would become aware

        I am getting confused here, also I just read the Incredible Sulk and that happens to me, although not frequently

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Basically, if you think you are a narcissist, you are not, because narcissism does not allow the Lesser or Mid-Range any recognition of that fact in order to ensure the defence mechanism works and remains intact.

      2. Perse says:


        So if Mar were a greater, she wouldn’t be asking, but might be researching why she is different? Or does that not even happen, they assume they are superior, and just go with that?

        I recall you saying when someone told you they suspected you were a narcissist, you did check it out (definition, not diagnosis).

        1. HG Tudor says:


    2. Renarde says:

      A very good point indeed.

  5. ANM says:

    Sam V is boring to listen to, but reading his work isn’t bad. At least he sticks to his facts and findings, and doesn’t create videos based on just emotions. His work is a little outdated, and he has even admitted to this. HG’s work is probably the most overall accurate and covers the most areas of Narcissist abuse from one author, and the only page I have consistently followed the last almost 3 years now. I don’t watch videos on how to heal anymore. All other narcissist/sociopath info I refer to, has to do with court and narcissist.

    Sereena Nightshade. I think her videos on youtube were taken down, but her books are informative but really dark. She goes over protocols for CPS, the Psychiatric system or the legal system, so you can take step to help your escape if you think the sociopath/narc tries to abuse you through those systems

  6. wolvesinwalden says:

    Well fuck. I wasn’t done. Dammit.

  7. wolvesinwalden says:

    I wonder about myself sometimes. Both of my parents have Cluster B diagnoses (Dad: ASPD/Mom: BPD) and I’m at a bit of a loss figuring out what behavioral bullshit is learnt vs. innate. Both obviously contribute, I’m noticing as I get

  8. Anm says:

    Or some of the YT narcissist “expert” videos are downright dangerous. Marry Poppin types giving advice on how to coparent with a Mid Mid Range Narc types. It’s all nice, but what if you have a narcissist on your hands who is out to take everyone down with them? There is such a big difference between regular narcissist and the malign ones, and how you should interact with them.

    1. wolvesinwalden says:

      As I was saying, I’m noticing as I get older that certain destructive impulses are getting easier to control. Having little to no reference for what is legit healthy behavior. But apparently I fake it well. Bleh.

      TLDR: I feel exposed. Although with doubts. Or these could be weird sympathy pangs. Jury’s out.

  9. Alessa says:

    This is so true, also in twitter and other social networks… I guess the % of narcissists, or people with narcissistic traits, is underestimated (especially those “dedicated to make good” and those who try to help you with your faws) … insightful, as usual!! I am your fan…

  10. BrokenRainbow says:

    I have been on a few facebook groups. I did not go on under my real name as I did not want to take any chances that people could see my real name. I knew there were narcissists “undercover” in the group just like HG said. I figured my ex might even be in that group. It was not helpful at all. I also found some of the blogs were to make money and you pay to use their program.

    Then I found HG and Narcsite. I wish I could remember the first couple of posts I read. I just remember the tears flowing. Relief and validation quickly followed. HG, this is the only group I want to be a part of. You are articulate, thought-provoking and the information you provide us is second to none. Thank you HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome.

    2. K says:

      He really is the best BrokenRainbow, and I knew right away; it was instinct.

    3. Jasmine says:

      BR: My nex did find me (or so he rambled, regarding my pseudonym …. he probably is a poster here now

      1. BrokenRainbow says:

        I can understand that. I wouldn’t be surprised if he finds me as well

  11. pascaleshealingjourney says:

    I think there are more of these sites than we realise. I have my suspicions about a few. Time to do a bit of detective work…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I agree and I would be interested in your results.

      1. pascaleshealingjourney says:

        Well, it is going to be hard to prove as they have so many supporters. The first clue like you said is being not so much as blocked but removed from the list of followers. If I continue this investigation, it will have to be private because there are too many people who believe this person is genuine and I don’t want to be ostracized.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Feel free to tell me in private through e-mail.

      2. pascaleshealingjourney says:

        Plus you know very well that exposing a narcissist is almost an impossible task.

  12. K says:

    You bet your ass those other blogger are coming here and purloining the information on narcsite.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      When you see that happen, tell me as they will be getting a firm e-mail from me and if they do not behave, from my lawyers after that.

      1. K says:

        I have not visited other sites (except love fraud: curiosity after it was mentioned here) but, if I come across something, I will let you know ASAP. You are averaging 85,000 hits per week and this blog provides exceptional information and support so I wouldn’t be surprised if other moderators were pilfering your excellent work.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I appreciate your vigilance.

          1. K says:

            My pleasure HG.

      2. MB says:

        HG, would you be able to patent your fuel matrix and narcissist classification, terminology, etc? If so, is there any benefit in doing so?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You cannot patent the written word. What I write is already protected by copyright as soon as I write it, if somebody passes my work off as their own, they are breaching copyright and an action lies against them for damages and if necessary to obtain an injunction to prevent further breaches. I have no issue with people using my work with prior permission and accredited to me, it is the unlawful and frankly discourteous use of my work by individuals where they seek to pass it off as their own work which I tackle. Referring to fuel is not a problem, that is a term and it is flattery that a person so uses it, it is where people use the articles or write in some details using my concepts without credit that cause an issue.

          1. MB says:

            I was thinking about the narcissistic dynamic the way you describe it as a process like in manufacturing. I suppose only the original narcissist could have the patent on that!

            Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. To have another narcissist swipe your terms is flattering indeed.

      3. Renarde says:

        It has been done and I’m pretty sure I can remember the group. It was lifted verbatim actually. I don’t think you were credited.

        I found it this week. I’ll get a link for you. Sorry, should have done it at the time. Wasn’t thinking.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have your e-mail Renarde, thank you.

          1. Renarde says:

            No worries. I was curious as to why the ‘blanket ban’ with zero explanation on that ‘devil’ Tudor is ‘verboten’. That’s how I found the post in the first place. Really surprised that the mods hadn’t jumped on it in the first place. I would have, IF I had been of that mindset.

            It points really to the fact that someone, not a million miles away from these parts, is starting to really talk.

            I am also seeing this myself in how I am attacked on social media.

      4. Lori says:

        oh that happens all the time usually by newbie and a moderator usually nips it right away. Are there narcs on those sites ? Of course Narcs that don’t know they are Narcs and present as a victim but there are lots of decent people there too.

        I find all kinds of crap breaks out on those pages because it’s a group mentality. Little online cliques start forming etc it’s really kind of stupid when you think about it. I find that people get personally wrapped up in these pages rather quickly

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree.

      5. Lori says:

        I was on one years ago and all kinds of crazy shit happened on it. Moderators fighting etc… not to mention you have loads of people on edge from their abuse and in different stages of recovery colliding with some narcs mixed in. It seems funny as shit now. HG if you don’t mind me saying so, I get tickled here how people here that don’t know you will ferociously defend you and I think you provide excellent information but it’s wild to watch what a group of loyal people you have

        Here’s the thing with support pages they can as helpful or not helpful as you make them. I find some people will use them as a crutch to stay connected. They will go on and on about how awful the Narc is but they are still engaging daily. I get it’s hard to break free. Very. And most fail many times and failure is fine as long as you are trying but some will come to these pages looking for ways to outsmart the Narc which will never hapoen because they don’t care but we do.

        I thinks it’s best to share your experience extract what info you need from others experiences and leave it at that

  13. Presque Vu says:!
    For true no punches advice I come here.
    Also because I can become anonymous and safe here!

    HG would you advise against FB Narc groups purely because they can see your account and friend you and find out about you?

    Thinking about it, it is actually safer here!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I advise against because :-

      1. The point you make re identity;
      2. The information provided in these groups is often incorrect and not complete;
      3. The risks pointed out in the article.

  14. Michelle says:

    One of the distinctions that really sets this blog apart is that it dispels the notion that all narcissists are fully aware of the implications of their actions. I really like how HG differentiates between the Lesser, Mid Range, and Greater. I am highly empathic and have known a lot of narcissists in my life, some in very close relationships. Some of them were absolutely hapless and did everything out of emotional impulse. The last one I met sends shivers down my spine because I cannot, no matter how much I try, come to the conclusion that he doesn’t act intentionally at least part of the time. “They do it on purpose, they know the whole time!” seems to be the main point on many of these so-called support forums. Narcissists are painted as universally sociopathic and monstrous. In truth, I think that many Lower and Mid-Range narcissists really do not understand why their relationships keep failing and really do think it’s a matter of finding other people to “do” the relationship right. The devalue/discard portion of the cycle comes upon them as an emotional defense and isn’t necessarily planned. There are others, though . . .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Michelle.

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Ive gained invaluable information over the years from many sources but HG’s has given me the clearest and from an angle the others havent as well as being entertaining. Even if you werent affected by narcissism the material is engaging and a form of written art.
      I do also enjoy sams work and quinns(assoc directs) along with others. Liking one doesnt take away from liking anothers.

  15. Bibi says:

    I have always enjoyed this article of yours. And you’re right–there’s no where else to go for deep understanding of narcissism.

    Some other channels I enjoy have some crossover into narcissism, but their focus is usually on being highly sensitive, or one therapist discusses many other mental issues/personality disorders. I have an Enneagram group I participate in as well.

    I am not in need of a ‘support group’ like I needed it 4-5 yrs ago, but I enjoy places that offer intellectual insight into understanding emotion and personality. And Narcsite certainly fits that criteria!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  16. Anm says:

    I read a book the other night that I downloaded on Amazon called, I Married A Sociopath. It’s totally a book about when 2 Narcs Collide, or the Borderline/Sociopath relationship. The book was a bit intriguing, but there was an element of the writer documenting her experience to validate that she wasn’t a “borderline” “crazy” “promiscuous” , and it was all the ex’s fault. It was. Very defensive.

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi anm….that book sounds interesting. I think its very common clusterb’s hooking up. Quite often both or one of them wont be aware they have a personality disorder and thats where we get victim narcs or other cluster b’s starting support groups aboit narcissism. Little do they realise they themselves have a personality disorder or work to do on themselves

    2. Newby 1111 says:

      You have no idea how tempted I was to anonymously send this to a certain BPD’s wife!

  17. wounded says:

    I have been very fortunate in avoiding most of these blogs. Due to where I was in the fuel matrix most of the things I read didn’t quite fit for what I was going through. Then, of course, I found here.

    Reading most articles on narcissism ranged from “I went through this, read a bit, and started my blog” to psychology articles with laser focus on the married narcissist or the SO’s of narcissists.

    When I read HG’s blog it was liked being kicked in the chest. Not every article (obviously) applies to me but nothing was a simple broad stroke. I was the empty puzzle board and this blog had all the pieces in the bag.

    I am very curious as to what other sites people have visited. Also curious, HG if you have come across Lisa E. Scott and Shahida Arabi and what your thoughts are as to either of them.

    1. Mona Smith says:

      I feel that many bloggers take ideas from this site now. Very much the same thing, these people are writing. Thus no need for me to read other blogs or sites. Only People sharing experiences are different.

      1. J says:

        I think I agree, Mona, that other sites are now borrowing from this site. And, I am thrilled if that is the case! HG is, in my view, such an important voice on this topic. The view “from the inside” is absolutely invaluable. If this blog is not being used by NPD researchers, it is a major loss.

      2. Jasmine says:

        I noticed that too mona! They’re even starting to use HG’s terms for all things narcicist.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, a reader kindly sent me a screen shot showing that someone called Mr Vaknin referred to ‘fuel’.

          1. Jasmine says:

            ASCC Direct did too! And i think Jaxn may have… (I was too busy admiring the scenery. . 🙄

          2. HG Tudor says:

            ASCC Direct has to purloin material as largely he has nothing of use to explain from what I have been told.

      3. Chihuahuamum says:

        I think i seen that video the other day of sam vaknin using the term fuel which surprised me lol i think ut was his interview with richard grannon. narcissists do “acquire” terms from others and are like mimicking sponges. Id be curious to know if sam visits narcsite.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Of course he does, how can he not?

          1. windstorm says:

            “Of course he does, how can he not?”

            I wonder if that is the same thing that “V” person would say if asked, “Do you thing HG Tudor visits your site?” Lol!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Well look at it this way, he used my term “fuel”, so he must have looked at some point. I do not use his terminology, therefore….

          3. windstorm says:

            I understand your point, HG. I meant that his thinking would be so grandiose as to assume you must read him also, because in his mind his work is so superlative. Not really superlative, of course, but he is a “legend in his own mind.”

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed WS, I understood that point and I agree, naturally to aid all you empathic truthseekers I pointed out the actuality.

      4. Chihuahuamum says:

        Lol HG why of course!! Not that youve ever snooped on their vids/sites 😄

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t. I am provided with articles etc by readers for my consideration.

      5. Getting There says:

        Jasmine, I like Derrick Jaxn’s work and have recommended it for those who have non-narcissistic relationships.
        After how I understood his advice to narcissists on his video today, I think he still needs to discover HG. I don’t have the ability to comment on YouTube, though, or I would recommend HG as I do verbally to many.

    2. Bibi says:

      There have been some feuds between YT channels, where said host of support channel has been called out as a narcissist by someone who seems unstable, and then the so-called host/narcissist claims he is being harassed/smeared by this unstable person, while this unstable person continues to post more videos in her defense against host/narcissist, only fueling more fire and undermining any credibility.

      From sitting on the sidelines, they both appear nuts because they both claim that they get their subs to harass the other.

      My hunch is that the host/narcissist has been targeted by someone who got her feelings deeply hurt and she wants to retaliate.

      I have no idea.

      There is another channel run by a woman who is a die-hard Trump supporter and if you say anything negative about him she will delete you. She has an absurdly long list of ‘rules’ for being in her group, one of them being ‘don’t complain.’

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed Bibi, people have referenced those very same YT sites to me and good god they are tedious and off the charts nuts in the mud-slinging and desperation to try and prove what the other person is.

      2. Bibi says:

        Just another reason to implement no contact and cease all interaction. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, making passive-aggressive videos against one another under the guise of ‘self-help’ only makes both sides appear unhinged. You can bet I’m staying away from that shit storm.

    3. Christine says:

      I saw a documentary in which Vaknin was tested for personality disorders and the result said that he was a sociopath and not a narcissist. He was obviously annoyed by this result, since he’s been building his career on explaining narcissism. I always found his writing extremely boring, no matter what his true diagnosis is.

      1. Mini duck says:

        Agree here. I always slept on his book after reading just few pages. My daughter said that his body Language reveals untrustworthy guy, when she saw him in one video interview.

      2. Bibi says:

        I saw that doc. and yes, he does achieve identity by being a narcissist. His writing is textbook speak. Very common for academic types, as they often make the most turgid writers. His information is not bad or off–I am not trying to rip on his work, but his actual craft is not in any way artful. HG has more fluidity to his mind, which lends to better writing ability overall, and more engagement.

        Also, Sam intensely studied philosophy. Even the best philosophers (outside of maybe Nietzsche who actually could write well) suck at writing. This is why I have always preferred philosophical writing that incorporates ideas over mere philosophy itself. Because it’s just not any fun to read!

        1. windstorm says:

          I’ll second that! My exhusband has a degree in Philosophy and I typed all his papers. They were all horribly boring! When I asked him why they were so pedantic and boring, he said that he wanted a good grade and that was how philosophy papers were supposed to sound. Lol!

          1. Lou says:

            Windstorm, I know your ex-husband is an abusive narc, but what you write about him often makes me laugh.

          2. windstorm says:

            My exhusband has a lot of humor. Two of his best qualities in my opinion are to be able to sum up a situation accurately and then to find humor in it – whatever the situation. He is in awe of nothing and cares little for other people’s expectations. Sitting next to him at a funeral is a real challenge. He runs a non-stop sardonic commentary, is constantly cracking jokes about the ceremony and mourners and often encourages any nearby small children in misbehavior. 😝

          3. Lou says:

            Windstorm,my narc mother can be like that too. Your comment reminded me of how she was making jokes about my paternal grand mother and one of my late father’s girlfriend’s behavior at his funeral. They were probably two of the people that were sincerely sad about his death and she was totally making fun of them when she told me about the funeral (I was not there). The worst is that she did make me laugh, with her jokes but I knew already there was something wrong with her.

          4. MB says:

            WS, I would like to formally extend an invitation to your ex husband to the pipe dream that is the Narcsite convention in Las Vegas. He sounds like a hoot. Come up with a name for him WS. Ex husband is too clinical for such a colorful character.

          5. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha MB!
            You have set me a formidable challenge! I have no idea what name to come up with for him! He’s very fond of anagrams and puzzles, but my mind doesn’t run that way. I’ll think about it.

            Wild horses couldn’t drag him to a narcsite convention! He can’t stand women who complain about anything or people who think others have treated them unfairly. I know a lot of narcs might view a bunch of empaths like that as a fuel frenzy, but he would just want to escape.

            Plus, Vegas? We’d never get him away from a poker table. Remember his father ran a card game for a living. The whole family love to gamble. Lol!

          6. MB says:

            WS, maybe we’ll get some suggestions for exhusband’s blog name. The narcsite convention isn’t for complaining, it’s for socializing. And yes, I need him there to show me the ropes around a casino. I’ve never been to one! I wouldn’t know what to do. Empaths in awe of his card playing skills; he would enjoy that.

          7. K says:

            Excellent, you can run the poker tables for the metaphorical SpeakEasy.

          8. windstorm says:

            Nope. No running the poker tables for me. I couldn’t even stand to sit in the casinos and watch when I had to be in Vegas previously. It all seemed so sad and fake. Besides you’d never even get me to a convention in Vegas. Lol! Antisocial recluse, remember?

          9. K says:

            I get it; self-preservation, I am anti-social, too, it is all sad and fake, however, think of the metaphorical money a SpeakEasy would bring!

            My sister lived in Vegas for 15 years and it is a party city 24/7 but I did enjoy visiting her and I didn’t spend a lot of time at the casinos.

          10. windstorm says:

            No, it’s not sad. It’s cheerful and upbeat! Alas, for whatever reason – I’m blaming my mother, rightly or wrongly (she did ridicule me when I would pretend things) – I have no real ability to pretend. It’s literal or bust with me! Ha, ha!

            My oldest son got married in Vegas and insisted on me being there since his wife wanted her mother there. It was an ordeal for me. We were only ever in casinos or affiliated hotels and EVERYTHING was fake. If it looked like glass, it was plastic. If it looked like wood, it was painted styrofoam. There were full sized fake trees, by full-sized fake streams running with some non-water substance. Fake breezes from hidden fans.

            I ended up spending as much time as possible in my room at the Excalibur with the window open the two inches it would open (probably to keep people from suiciding out it) to feel real breeze and hear and see the live pigeons on the ledge.

            In the actual casinos I picked up a feeling of desperation and tiredness from the people. No sense of fun or happiness at all. And all of my people who were their for serious gambling were all concentration and focus. It was like they were at work, under stress, until they finished their gambling time. Then they were all smiles and talked about how much fun they were having. Hard for me to believe because they sure didn’t seem to be having fun at the time!

            There was only one time we were actually outside and that was to cross the street. It was so wonderful to see the sun and the palm trees and feel the breeze! I’m glad you had a good experience at your sister’s. 😊

          11. K says:

            Sorry, I wasn’t very clear; I meant the casinos and gambling were sad and fake not being anti-social. I can be social or anti-social and there are times when I prefer to be anti-social.

            Vegas is as fake as a three dollar bill and many of the people that live there are professional gamblers. If I lived there, I would probably be one, too. I won more money in two hours than if I worked a forty-hour week at McDonald’s. I watched the Roulette table for a while and there was a guy who kept winning so I mimicked his moves and won enough money to buy school clothes and supplies for my kids. After that, I was not working for minimum wage ever again.

            Excalibur, Caesar’s Palace, Bellagio, MGM and Luxor are some of the casinos I have visited. It is a mecca for narcissistic type personalities.

          12. MB says:

            Windstorm, at least what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas so you won’t have to re-live the fakery and desperation. You do you girl!

            Ps I cannot imagine not being able to pretend. I don’t think I could live without it!

          13. K says:

            Me too, Lou. The same with WS’s Moron in Munich and Bubbles and the Weasel. Sometimes, I just laugh when I read about them.

          14. Lou says:

            K, I have missed Bubbles ‘ story with the Weasel. The name alone makes me laugh though. I know there is a Mr Bubbles, who is not a narc but have not read about the Weasel.
            Will try to look it up.

          15. Lou says:

            K, I know more about the Weasel now. He is a very short, restless mid ranger, probably cerebral, who grows hair whenever he is ensnaring his victims and shaves when he’s gotten them, but he looks ugly either way. He reads his horoscope daily and thinks he is another Tolstoy. Bubbles thought once he was dead, but got disappointed when she found out it was not him. LOL.
            I like Bubbles style.

      3. NarcAngel says:

        I found V’s writing too clinical and his videos so dry and boring that I couldnt focus on the topic and kept wanting to fast forward. More than once I actually fell asleep. I wondered if I hadnt thought wrong about the people I knew as being narcissists because they had personalities and were lively and not like him at all. I couldnt imagine anyone being attracted to him so I questioned his credibility. Then I found HG and narcsite. Narcissism in technicolour. Validation. Education.

        1. MB says:

          NA, I found it difficult to understand Sam V with his thick accent. He is also so disgustingly arrogant and condescending I can’t bear to care what he says.

        2. windstorm says:

          I was shocked when I first saw Vaknin, too. Since he was a cerebral, I was expecting someone like my exhusband or my father, but maybe smarter. Onthe surface, they seem nothing at all alike. Vaknin is so dead and lifeless. Where was the teasing sense of humor? It made me wonder if my exhusband was to make a video about narcissism, if he would come across in such a colorless way? If Vaknin was off camera, would he maybe show more humor?

          1. K says:

            I believe he is also a psychopath so that might explain the flat, lifeless affect you are seeing.

          2. MB says:

            I’ll borrow HGs expression when it comes to SV…”yawn”

          3. Lou says:

            Windstorm, I hope he does, for his wife ‘s sake.
            But this is probably a good example where hope is useless.

          4. K says:

            Ha ha ha…excellent search on The Weasel! I was catching up on narcsite this morning when I caught your comment and I was very impressed by it. I like Bubbles style too. She is a hoot!

          5. Lou says:

            Thanks K. I just did what you say you do to find comments and found a lot of them about the Weasel. It was fun to read them.
            I think there was a glitch in the system on Saturday and some comments were not notified. But I am glad you caught my comment.

          6. K says:

            My pleasure Lou
            Awesome, your searching skills will keep improving the more you use them and it is fun! I really enjoy rereading old threads.

            It was strange because I didn’t get a notification and I was surprised, but I caught it as I was going through the thread again. WP will remain painted black until they learn how to behave.

            You may know this trick but, in case, I will share it with you. Use Control F (Command F on Mac/apple) on any thread and a bar will appear on the top right and you can type in a keyword and it will highlight and bring you to the keyword. That way if the thread has 600 comments you aren’t scrolling through them all.

            HG Tudor works well and SMH, however, avoid MB until October (SepteMBer) and everyones screen name works well except the letters: K, S, J, etc.,

            So type in weasel on this thread and it should bring you to all comments with that keyword.

            Have fun!

          7. MB says:

            K, so now we know why you chose that name! Incognito. Ha ha. I like the “avoid MB until October”

          8. theletterafterj says:

            Ha ha ha…I was like: WTF when all the Septembers got flagged! I just have to switch keywords till October. I do like my incognito name: theletterafterj, however, I like brevity more.

          9. MB says:

            Lord have mercy K! You DO NOT want to bring up all my crazy comments!

          10. K says:

            C’mon, Carpe Diem! It is a bit fun to pull up old comments, especially the funny ones like this:

            Narc Angel

            FEBRUARY 6, 2018 AT 19:01

            Are you referring to the flaming Vegas duo of Zigfried and Roy? Or was the Neurologist and co-founder of Psychology mauled by his tiger also? Inquiring minds would like to know.

          11. MB says:

            I love NAs humor!

          12. K says:

            She is a riot!

          13. NarcAngel says:

            Hahaha. That was a fun thread. DUTG (I miss her) got confused when referencing Sigmund Freud. There was also talk of being stranded on an island as I recall. Plenty of treasures and much needed laughs in the archives. I think I’ll go back and read that one again. Thanks for the reminder.

          14. K says:

            You are welcome NA
            This one is funny too, I found it on Nightlife.

            MARCH 30, 2017 AT 09:05
            What did your kind do at night before there was Internet access?

            HG Tudor
            APRIL 2, 2017 AT 10:50
            Binoculars and walkie talkies.

          15. K says:

            I miss DUTG too, maybe she will be hoovered back. Is the stranded island comment you were thinking of?

            Narc Angel
            FEBRUARY 7, 2018 AT 19:51
            Very well. But I’m sure glad I wasnt stranded on an island in need of a tampon and waiting on this group to decipher.

            HG Tudor
            FEBRUARY 7, 2018 AT 22:26
            You would probably find some natural sponge on the island and that could be used as a tampon, so your morse code deciphering delay would not prove an issue.


          16. K says:

            Oops, I forgot to switch my name back.

          17. Lou says:

            Thanks à lot for thé tip, K. I didn’t know about it. I read Narcsite mostly on an IPad, but sometimes I use a computer. I will try the control F command next time I am using my computer.
            Thanks again Kind K.

          18. theletterafterj says:

            You are welcome Lou
            I didn’t realize it was a little known shortcut so I will share it with everyone here. I forgot to mention that on long threads you may have to switch to either older or newer comments to find the keyword. You should be able to use it on the iPad too (google directions). Practice using the shortcut on the threads until you get familiar with it.

            The search function is applicable to all sites.

            You are well on your way to being a Tudor archivist.

          19. Lou says:

            K, yes, I found the shortcut in my IPad. Great!
            Thanks a lot. 😘

          20. K says:

            Fucking A Lou! Run with it!

          21. K says:

            My pleasure Lou
            Here is another fun thing to do. On your iPad/desk top there should be NOTES, go onto narcsite, copy and paste any comment into NOTES, be sure to include the date, close narcite, go into notes, the date should be highlighted or underlined and hit it.

            Like magic, it pulls up narcsite and the exact thread and place where the comment is located. It is epic so I transferred all my Tudor notes from Word to NOTES and it makes accessing the threads so much quicker.

          22. Lou says:

            Oh, that is great too.
            Thanks K, you are a star.

          23. K says:

            My pleasure Lou and enjoy the scavenger hunt!

      4. Perse says:

        ‘……at least what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas so you won’t have to re-live the fakery and desperation…….’

        WARNING: THIS IS FALSE…..You do not get to just leave that marriage that happened in Vegas……in Vegas! It will follow you around like a nightmare that never ends……….GAH!!! Your narcissists will now have a piece of paper that says that they own you, and they will NEVER let you forget it!!!!
        And they will bring it up every time Vegas is mentioned. (and any other time they want to bash you over the head with something) So, no, some things will JUST NOT STAY IN VEGAS where YOU wanted to leave it………..

        1. MB says:

          Good to know about Vegas Perse! I’ve never been, but now I’ll know it’s not true that what happens there stays there. I don’t plan to get married during the Narcsite conference, but you never know how wild it could get! Ha ha

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