The Golden Rules of Freedom – No. 2

golden 2.jpg

It is only over when you die or we die. Death is the only release from our grip.

I repeatedly explain this. I am not advocating that you kill yourself, but rather, I am reinforcing to you, that owing to the Narcissistic Perspective we regard you as our property. You belong to us and that ownership lasts until either you die or we die.

I know some people regard such a comment as grandiosity on my part, “Oh HG,” they say “That’s just you wanting so sound powerful.”

No, it isn’t. True, it is a manifestation of power, but it is a fact and if you fail to abide by this golden rule then you will not achieve and maintain your freedom from our kind.

If you think such a comment is just a manifestation of grandiosity and that your entanglement with the narcissist is over and will never be resurrected, then you are falling prey to your emotional thinking. You will lower your guard, you will engage with us again and you will be ensnared in some form. I have seen it happen repeatedly with my victims. Further, I have lost track of the number of times honest readers have stated

“You were right HG. He came back.”

Of course he or she did. We always will,  if the opportunity arises because you are our property, our appliance and we have invested in you. We want to capitalise on that investment time and time again.

You may state with conviction that this was the ‘final discard’ (such a phrase makes me roll my eyes) because there is no such thing. Those that declare that it was the final discard,  invariably state it from one of two perspectives – firstly, that they have done something so terrible to the narcissist that he or she would never dare to darken their doorstep again or secondly it is said because they want the twisted confirmation that it isn’t the “final discard” and the narcissist will return because the addicted victim wants the narcissist to return again.

Such conviction is dangerous. It breeds complacency. It makes you vulnerable. I will not deny that there are certain acts which are committed against that result in massive wounding. These acts invariably lead to your disengagement and our kind may well skulk away tail between legs and not be seen or heard of for some time. But it is only a temporary state of affairs.

There is always a risk we will return. It may be a very low risk or a very high risk, but the risk remains and a lot of the time, owing to naivety and ineffective (supposed) no contact regimes the risk is higher than you realise. Owing to the innate addiction you have to our kind and your inherent susceptibility to the fraudulent effects of emotional thinking, the risk is higher than you realise.

By understanding that it is never over until you die or we die ensures you avoid the complacency which results in ensnarement. I do not mean you have to live your life thereafter always looking over your shoulder, but ensuring that you do not adopt the mantle of arrogance that we are gone for good. By maintaining the mindset that there is always a risk, you will create a Logic Defence so that you, over time and with the adoption of additional techniques I can detail to you, automatically maintain your vigilance so that it does not feel like a burden.

Every one of my romantic victims has been hoovered by me. I do not draw them back into the Formal Relationship as I have a nomadic approach, but they have all been hoovered. One was hoovered after a 12 year gap.

Do not regard this golden rule as one of inducing fear and despair, but instead apply it so that you maintain your awareness and your guard is now lowered. By understanding and applying this rule, you are far less likely to commit the elementary errors that those disregarding this rule will do.

Our mindset says it is never over until death comes. Our need for fuel and other elements of the Prime Aims means that it is never over until death comes. Our ability to return in so many different ways means that it is never over until death comes.

By combining this golden rule with my material however you can ensure that it may as well be over because your education and application of your education means the risk of our return has been reduced and maintained at a very low level indeed.

Disregard this golden rule and your risk increases.



100 thoughts on “The Golden Rules of Freedom – No. 2

  1. Valkyrie says:

    The “to the death” statement, I also agree is not accurate. I find it disproportionate to the reality of their long term power over us. It is part of their false thinking, that we are connected to them, a piece of them, not our own autonomous persons.

    Case in point, one of my narc exs called to apologize for corrupting me. It was an interesting and telling choice of words. He felt like he had shaped my personality and opinions and made me less spiritual/religious.

    Wow, leggo your ego. I had to inform him that I was not his clay. That my opinions and personality and morals were not predicated on his great and powerful presence.

    I have noticed that some of the narcs I have been involved with are misogynists. I think part of the reason he felt he could have such an effect on me was because I am a women. He saw me as innocent and emotional and vulnerable, to the exclusion of being knowledgeable and logical and strong. Of course, women can be all those things. We are not two-dimensional.

    Notice that he did not apologize for hurting me or treating me poorly. Why would he think he had an issue in that respect? No, he was concerned that his philosophical conversations with me had somehow left me more debauched and depraved. As if his words, merely spoken, were accepted into my moral conscience like osmosis.

    Sorry my friend, I have a mind of my own and I can discern for myself.

  2. KM says:

    People give away “possessions” all the time and don’t go back for them. Why can’t you let someone go for good?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because you belong to us forever from our perspective.

      1. Karen says:

        Wow 😱

  3. Valkyrie says:

    I want to write again, thank you so much for everything you do HG. You have been an invaluable resource in my recovery.

    Because of you and your brilliant and well wrtitten illuminations of what goes on inside a narcissist’s head, I have helped a friend today with understanding what happened to her. I showed her an article and she expressed so much gratitude. It is to you that we both express much appreciation.

    I can never say thank you enough for waking me up and educating me.

    But I will say thank you another time. You are wonderful, helpful, amazing and ingenious.

    ❤ Valk

    I know this is fuel, but it is also positive, honest feedback.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you are welcome.

  4. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dearest NarcAngel,
    Thank you gorgeous for your response
    You are SmartAngel as well 😇
    I think their oblivious to their own dumbness …. smart, yet dumb 😂😂
    Funny mum’s keeps proclaiming “I’m not a liar, I don’t lie” .. yet her stories change ..same with the weasel

    What were those movies .. “Big Fat Liar”, “The Neverending Story”, “Dumb n Dumber” or in reality, are they just ” The Biggest Losers”

    Kisses beautiful
    Luv Bubbles xx

  5. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dearest Windstorm,
    Thankyou lovely ….you’re an angel
    Luv Bubbles xx

  6. lisa says:

    HG, do narcissists follow similar patterns when on dating sites ? so for example send loads of messages , chase etc , ask for pictures bla bla could be classed as golden period , then stop contacting , they are online but no longer contacting , abruptly stops , almost like a silent treatment , would that be narcissist behaviour on a dating site ? Then after a period of time they would start messaging again almost like hoovering

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes although the approach of the schools and cadres has subtle variances.

  7. DebbieWolf says:


    Thank you for the kind thing you said to me further down in this thread…. xx

    There are no reply buttons on your comment so I’m having to reply here in the general reply box.

    It really is a mystery to me as to why there are reply buttons in some places and not in others. it does kind of throw threads completely off and out of sync at times.

    1. Blank says:

      You’re welcome Debbie.
      I usually go upwards from the comment I like to respond to and take the first ‘reply’ button I come across.

      1. MB says:

        As ever, there’s an app for that. The WP app works quite well. I recommend it if you participate on the blog with a smart phone. No more looking for reply buttons!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you MB.

          1. MB says:

            You are most welcome birthday man. (I learned my lesson on calling you “boy”. Ha ha)

        2. windstorm says:

          That’s true and I’m on WordPress and subscribed for every single comment made on the blog. But still there are many comments I don’t receive! I happened to go on Narcsite the other day and immediately saw a comment NarcAngel had made to me that I’d never gotten and it had no reply button. I didn’t understand what she meant, but had no real way to ask her. It was frustrating! WordPress is just squirrelly and has issues!

          1. MB says:

            WS, I think I miss some of the comments too, but dear Lord I get so many anyway! I don’t know how HG does it and responds to as many as he does.

      2. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Dearest Blank,
        Oh my goodness… I’m doing it all wrong then
        I flick back n forth to every post and relook and relook until I can’t see any more comments .. and yes, I look for a reply button as well
        I wondered how everyone commented on old posts and answered all comments promptly ….. it’s exhausting when Mr Tudor goes away and comes back … so much to catch up on

        How does one get notified and see all the comments straight away …I’m going back and forth like a yoyo (I’ve been relying on the “recent posts” at the very end of the page)
        Thank you lovelies
        Technically naive … help
        Luv Bubblesxx

        1. windstorm says:

          Download the WordPress app and follow narcsite. Then click on the option to receive all comments made to the blog.

          1. brokenrainbow says:

            windstorm and MB
            Thank you for the info about the WordPress app. I downloaded it and it has made a huge difference in reading and responding to comments.

          2. MB says:

            You are so welcome brokenrainbow. The only thing I wonder about since I started using the app is whether HG gets as many hits when you read from and reply within the app? Like this one, I still make many comments on the blog from the email links rather than the app notification bell, which is good for hits. The hits come from the loading of the pictures and content on the web pages. The way he has it set up gets many hits from each visit. I wouldn’t want to deny that to him.

          3. brokenrainbow says:

            That is good information as well. I want HG to get as many hits as possible. I can use both.

      3. Blank says:

        Dear Bubbles,

        I was doing the same as you, going back & forth at first (and that is indeed very exhausting!) untill I discovered the lines

        -notify me of new comments via email and
        -notify me of new posts via email

        once you’ve pushed the reply button

        That way you get to know if someone responds to your comments.
        You do not see the subjects you did not comment on though.

        I’m on my PC usually, on the phone things usually work slightly different.

        To be honest I don’t like adding too many apps on my phone, they’re all intruding your photo’s, messages, etc..
        But when you’re not as paranoid as I am 😉 and you like to get ALL the comments do as Windstorm suggests.

        Bye lovely!

      4. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Dearest Blank,
        Thank you sweet pea, I really appreciate your help
        Luv Bubbles xx

  8. Lola says:

    Lol. This post made me giggle at how silly Narcissistic personality disorders can be.

    Logical people who have moved on and realized you were toxic don’t care about you anymore. Time heals all and you are insignificant, almost a joke in our memories of how immature and ridiculous your behaviors were.

    Contact us all you want, we feel nothing and we don’t care. Death is the only release? Ha! Don’t flatter yourself, that connection you think you still have over us is all in your head. Just like all the other ridiculous stuff that goes on with people with these mental disorders.

    You are your mental disorder HD. Remember that. Remember than people that don’t have those illnesses see right through people like you, eventually. This psychological puppet string you think you have attached to us is all in your head. All in your warped head with all the other little silly stories you’ve made up in there.

    These personality disorders cause narcissists / sociopaths to make up stories in their heads and then actually start believing them. It’s their own little world.

    It’s quite funny actually to think back on those that have hurt you and their reality. It’s sad and people with mental illness don’t deserve to be laughed off, I’m not saying that, but when they think they still have some sort of control over you years later and try to hurt you, it’s just silly to me.

    You get what you give right? After Love bombing you start treating people like shit, so you’re gonna get a person who will eventually stop loving you and who will eventually question your motives. People aren’t dumb and with the generational concentration of self-care, these notions of having control over other people and living in a world strongly made up in your own head is delusional.

    Pure delusion 😂

    1. Bubbles🍾 says:

      Dearest Lola,
      You make a lot of sense, I tend to agree and had to laugh 😂
      I luv your second and third paragraphs “logical people have moved on …… ” “contact us all you want……”

      The weasel and all his sundry will never be in our lives again and if thinks he owns me til death…. then he’s dreaming 😴
      He was “one sided” delusional

      It’s great to be on the sidelines now and looking at how ridiculous they truly are ….. I was very deeply saddened the way our friendship was abused by him
      I’m too old for all this nonsense
      Our care factor toward him and “his lot” now …. is …. zero
      I have moved on and he continues playing the fool
      The truth is the more I hear about him in conversation the more mutual acquaintances are expressing their TRUE opinions of him … they are all laughing at him behind his back …. and his grandiose delusions keep him blindsided ….he’s a walking joke
      I “almost” feel “sorry” for him … haha …. oops did I just say that
      Well done Lola
      Luv Bubbles xx

      Ps ..Very good article Mr Tudor, has sparked interesting and excellent comments

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Thats a good point. The narcissism does not allow them to acknowledge that some people do catch on (perhaps not to the actual term narcissist but to their behaviours) and are laughing behind their backs with each other, but they are nonetheless. I have let people think they’ve got one over on me only to tell them later (usually publicly) that I was quite aware and allowed it because of my sympathy for them in having to be so pathetic in their attention seeking. Then I point to the holes in their story so they can shore them up for the next time and tell them they’re welcome. You have to be intelligent to be a good liar, and most of them are not. (I tell them that too).

  9. DebbieWolf says:


    Along the lines of how you’ve taught us so much and different people in the thread saying what a difference you’ve made and how much help you’ve given.

    I’m going to sing you parts of a song to say thank you..yes..sing..

    🎵 If you wanted the sky I would write across the sky in letters that would soar a thousand feet high, To Sir With Love..
    If you wanted the moon I I would try to make the stars but I, would rather you let me give my heart: –
    To Sir With Love.🎵

    Thank you for all of your guidance and help.
    Class 2017/2018.

    1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

      Debbie wolf,

      I can’t remmeebr where you posted something I wanted to respond to – but thank you for your post 🙃. I’m having issues locating it at the moment. It’s nice to know that someone can relate…

      I’ll write a more in-depth response once I find it lmao! Xo

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        Harleen Quinzel

        Hello Doc… I think it was possibly on “how could you?”
        .. not to worry I often lose things myself and I’m not subscribed to articles after a few days so I miss things too I am sure.
        All is well.x

  10. Kanter says:

    I guess HG you forgot one thing, one very special aspect. As you go No Contact with the Narc, he/she needs fuel immediately and by not giving him/her that fuel for a certain amount of time, he/she MUST find another victim asap!
    That particular fact would leave you Narcfree and problem is solved.

    You agree?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      We may rely on supplementary sources (secondary and tertiary) for a time (indeed a Greater can rely on secondary sources – through an extensive fuel matrix – for quite some time) but most narcissists being Lesser and Mid Range will need a new primary source pretty promptly.

  11. Ella says:

    Serendipity. This day marked my hard earned FREEDOM.

    My jaw has relaxed and released aching teeth..a side effect of this vile aberration of yours.

    He gave me my first compliment in all of these sordid years as I went hard and without hesitation for the precipice. No courage, just nothing left to lose. His expression was one of long absent admiration. I was something to behold once. Before he snuffed me out of existence. The stage exists only for one.

    Speaking to himself he said “I underestimated you. I didn’t see this coming.”

    I did not. Now DONE.

    No parting love letter, no angst. No bullsh*t. A blink and I am gone.
    A blink built on 908 days of planning.

    I hit the ground hard and surprisingly I rose. Here I am.

    A pocket of reclaimed coins and frayed bits of hemp in my hair from the severed noose. I am overjoyed at what awaits. It is warm here and smells of rosemary. The past has politely stayed put and every moment since a heady miracle.

    Your writing purged the faint illusion of warmth from his very beautiful face. I see him, his achievements and glory precariously erected on broken bones and anguish. Gratitude for the unlikely steps that freed me and even him. Perhaps due to strife? he slipped his cloak aside and let me peer behind for a few times at the very end. These things cannot be unseen.

    His eyes always disturbed me. Like sleight of hand he was stunning in 2 dimensions. But across a room his eyes were secretive matte black. Not once a glimmer or glint. Unfamiliar and uncomfortable foreign substrate.

    There will not be a part deux in my pathetic drama. You cannot hoover what you cannot find. Bridges have been burned and prints washed away. Oh, I remember dancing. I think I still can. I’m not waiting 🙂

    “Nothing so bad it is not good for something”

    So they say.

    Thank you.

    1. DebbieWolf says:


      Well done. Hope you find new happy times ahead and feel a sense of peace grow inside of you day by day.🌹

    2. None So says:

      You have a lovely way with words. You somehow managed to fashion a bouquet of prose from charred bits of soul, rendered pieces of heart, and lost marbles of mind. It is representative of the best we all can hope for, once fate has decided to ensnare us in the twisted, sticky web a narc weaves. To transform the ugliness of their business into a beautiful awareness of light. Even though fate may have had a hand in putting you in those crosshairs, I do not believe it was fate that freed you. No. You did that. By the sheer strength of your will, profound belief in your instincts and a resolve to educate yourself so the blinders are permanently removed. You will not be a victim again and you will use your wonderful energy for your own good instead of allowing it to be misused for the dark purpose of another. Keep writing!!

    3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


      Very happy for you! Hugs from afar!

  12. SG says:

    Sorry, H. G., but I have to agree with the other commenters who feel that they are no longer the victim to a life of being owned by the person or persons who so terribly manipulated them.. I believe that with healing, education, and time on our behalf, the narcs in our lives lose their power over us.
    I now see my many narcs as broken, flawed humans rather than my demi-god-like rulers.
    When my ex did try to manipulate me several years after our divorce, I saw his paltry attempts at gaining emotional fuel as desperation on his part. The former hero fell hard from his pedestal and became even more shattered. He was a nuisance or pest to me and others who saw past his false self. The same holds true with my family narcs. I think they all have learned their once powerful shining lights as entitled beings are sadly going out.
    However, by educating us, H. G. you are farther from the “dark side” than those who have tried to destroy us. You bring light.

  13. Christine says:

    I don’t give a damn whether my narc ex tries to contact me again. He’s gone for good because he’s gone for me. You really do like this “ever presence” idea, don’t you? I’d respond to a message from nearly any ex just to see how it was going with them, but not for the narc because I don’t care. I wish the others well — I don’t wish him well or ill, because there’s nothing there.

  14. wounded says:

    Dealing with some emotional thinking today. This time last year was the when the seduction period was in full swing. I didn’t realize how strong it was but I figured better to vent here than anywhere else.

    The first gift the narc gave me was sand. I collect sand and anytime someone goes off to a beach I ask for sand. I asked the narc for sand, as I ask everyone. I never thought he would actually bring it back. Most people don’t, nor do I expect them to. They are on vacation after all, plus he was my boss. I had a few other bosses I had asked and not received, so I expected nothing.

    It was a small gift shop bottle with shells included. What got my attention was the little white ribbon tied around and curled, like you would expect on a wrapped gift. He didn’t hide giving it to me, nor did he make it public. It was warm from being in his pocket. The ribbon is what crawled under my skin. Did the gift shop do that or did he?

    That is when I phoned a close friend and asked her opinion. I remember fingering the ribbon as I talked to her. I explained to her, thinking he might have an office crush. She thought more than likely he simply enjoyed speaking with me and was being friendly. So I wrote it off as a thoughtful gift even as my instinct raged.

    There is one line in my consultation that I would change. Only one. I asked for only one thing: sand.

  15. wounded says:

    It’s like waiting for the other shoe to drop, knowing it isn’t over. Thanks to a consult with HG I know the flurry of oddities were third party Hoover’s and relishing the silence for the moment. Also due to hyper vigilance several ties have been severed.

    I realized the other day though that I have a bizarre bit of ever presence. His former DLS is my best friend. I am probably the same to her although she might not recognize it as such. We very rarely discuss it and only in general terms.

  16. Kathy Mor says:

    I think a lot of people think of Hoover in terms of an attempt on the narcissist’s part in re-engaging again in the formal relationship, perhaps as it was before. I know that I used to think that way when I first got here. But now, after reading this material and understanding what fuel is, a Hoover may be done to accomplish fuel that doesn’t necessarily mean fully re-engagement. Yes, it can go that way but it may be just a hello to see if you answer the message, and then he disappears again. Or continues to text you.
    For those of you who moved away, changed phone numbers and etc… it makes it harder but as HG said, not impossible. These days is not difficult to find someone with the sites available on internet. So, no contact is really the Golden rule if you come to think that any form of communication, as little as it is, provides with fuel for them and hope for you.
    If you accept the fact that they see us as property and properties have no rights, have no feelings; if you accept the fact that NOT MATTER what you think you can do, you cannot change them, you quickly realize that it is NOT worth to go through all that again. Because nothing has changed. If you are hurting due the fact that right now they are having FAKE hot sex with a lucky chosen one, know that it won’t last. It is just a matter of time until she finds herself in your shoes.

    So they will Hoover.

    I had a guy, who now I clearly see, is another narcissist, just sent me a message after four years. Yes. What was the trigger? I don’t know but there we have, a message sent. I went no contact with him simply because he was too much, too fast. I couldn’t get a word in. Not matter what I did and said, he had to correct me and I was NOT in a relationship with him. He simply decided that I was going to be in a relationship with him. We never kissed. We never had sex. We talked and he was quickly to say that because we shared so much, we should just go ahead and move in. He wanted me to sell my car and drive his. Just like that. He would text me at least 15 times per hour.
    He drove me nuts and nauseated. I couldn’t breathe. So there you have it.

    Listen to HG!!! Unless you don’t care about being caught up again. Play at your own risk.

    1. DebbieWolf says:


      I used to think hoovering meant they were trying to reinstiate the relationship every time too. yes there are times when that is the case but later on it’s as you say.

      I wonder if when people say has he really gone and HG says they’re really trying to find out if nexes will be back I’m wondering if people are really trying to find out isometimes f the narcissist “wants” them back properly.

      I found your comment really helpfhelpful especially the part about them being fake and how it won’t last and that the new person if the nex has someone will find themselves in the same position as we were.

      Your tone comes over as a calm resignation and I must admit I feel that way myself after after all the turbulence.
      I know I’ve earned my stripes to get to this position, and it’s not easy.

      It is such a good thing when other people can see that it does get better.
      it’s awful being in that position where you don’t think it will, and thinking that maybe for other people it will but thinking yourself as the exception and that you won’t get through.

      To those who think that way… you can see here it gets better little by little.

      Just like the salami slicing methods they use to chip away at us when we first entangle with them is in reverse .. little by little one step at a time we can rebuild.

      I have said many moons ago and it remains to be the case: think of it this way you don’t have to do it all at once, no need to climb a whole mountain in one day, do it one step at a time.


      1. Kathy Mor says:

        This blog/web site has saved me. HG has saved me. I mean it. If for everyone he hurt, he can save one here, I must say that it is a huge accomplishment because it took a narcissist to open my eyes against another of his kind. I came from a place of complete disorientation and visceral pain. If it were not for my son, I wouldn’t be here today. I am being honest. I don’t know if I thought of suicide exactly but many times I wished I was dead so it would have to stop. Other times I prayed for him to sue, so it would stop. But I have a gift and this gift allows me to glimpse the “other side” and we don’t cease to exist after we die. Whatever you are here, you are in the other side. So if you are in pain, it gets stronger there because once you cross over, that is it. You can’t come back. You can’t change it. You lost the chance. You will have to wait. You also look at what you lost and you look at the consequences that you have to face which are simply the end result of what you did and not necessarily “punishment” in the biblical sense. All of it, right in front of your eyes and there is nowhere else to go.

        So, said that, death wasn’t the answer. It was just an illusory escape from the pain. I was totally clueless about what was going on in my relationship with my narc. In fact, narcissism didn’t even crossed my mind because the knowledge that I had about it was DSM knowledge so I always expected the attention seeking, boisterous behavior… the textbook definition of a narcissist. My guy is not like that. He’s quiet. He doesn’t want to call attention in that manner, even though quietly he wishes to be famous and recognized. So he isn’t a textbook narcissist on that sense. So what is wrong? What?

        The same about my grandmother. When I read the very first testimonial on HG’s web site where the person describes her mother and how she treated the family, locking them in the basement while she cleaned the house so they wouldn’t mess up what she just cleaned, the fact that as a child that person could never bring friends home… I almost fell off my bed. I never imagine my grandmother being a narcissist because she was always very critical of herself. She was never satisfied with anything, anyone, never. But she demanded emotional attention and she had no shame in doing so. From time to time she would rage and break things particularly when I ignored her. She would sulk for months faking sickness. I didn’t give shit about it. Go and die, crazy bitch. I knew she was faking it and while everybody kissed her butt, I could care less. One time I popped in when she was alone and asked her what color of coffin she wanted. I can’t describe the Satan’s look on her face. I told her calmly: don’t get me started. You won’t win this war. I PROMISE you. I will make your destruction my personal mission. And I meant it.

        I was bad. She abused my empathy and haunted my life. All that stuff happening in the house was her fault, added to the fact that because of me the manifestations were physical. Haunting that you could document and show on Discovery channel. I drove her insane as she drove me miserable. I didn’t go to her funeral. She had a not so pleasant death. Unfortunately. I don’t wish anyone torture. But that’s how she passed away.
        We had GIGANTIC confrontations growing up. It was a war where she tried to control me and I fought against it because it was simply ridiculous. I wasn’t doing anything wrong. She backed off when the last time she tried to beat me with a cane, I swore God it would be the last thing she would do alive.
        I spent 18 years of my life in a private Catholic school. That speaks for itself. The stuff that HG mentioned about writing the whole essay again because there was ONE misspell word? That was my daily life. If I didn’t finish my food, she would keep it until it was all gone regardless of the smell. I got food poisoning so many times that it was just normal. My aunt would tear off all the pages of my homework and I had to it all over again to exhaustion. My mom, another narc, was too busy drinking, playing her pity parties, and faking suicide to take care of me. My dad another narc, didn’t want to do anything with their insanity. I don’t blame him but please save your daughter from it!!!! Nope. He was too busy bedding other women. He killed himself in 2008 after I went no contact with him (I didn’t know it was no contact). He wanted to make me pay. Unintentional suicide. He thought they would catch him before the pills got in his system. Too late. No one found him until he was unconscious.

        How I managed to survive? It was pride on their part. No one in our family was going to show failure. Yet everyone failed. My whole family is made up of narcissists of different schools, as HG explains. I had NO clue that this was the issue. I always said: something is wrong with everyone here. I can feel it. But I can’t tell what the hell this is! I didn’t find answers until I got to this web site.

        So I didn’t see narcissism in my guy. I blamed on his past traumas, beatings, abuse that I ended up finding out on my own, but never on narcissism. It doesn’t match the stupid dumb DSM. I am a nurse. I did clinical rotations in psych facilities. I dealt with narcissists in crises with underlined psychosis. He isn’t it. What is it?

        Now with every exchange here, I find a piece of my story. I just read Mercy’s answer where she says that every time, it felt as if it was the last time she would see her narc as if he always had one foot out of the door. BINGO! I felt the same exact way, from day one. Always. I couldn’t pinpoint what made me feel that way but I am sure I was picking up vibes. Even during the golden period. I felt that he was about to leave for good.

        I am still going back and forth in my emotions because I can’t accept the fact that this condition is so misunderstood, misrepresented by the medical community and above all, it is treated as a simple diagnosis like something minor. Omg! That’s why they are dangerous, so effective!

        We are more concerned about the psychopath who goes on a killing spree than the narcissist causing suicides and occasionally homicides. We are so pre-historical that we consider physical assault more serious than emotional assault because you can quantify it, measure it, see it. The emotional aspect is secondary, treated with pills and patched up with some shitty, idiotic, stupid therapy. I hate therapists. Hate them. They are worse than the narcissists.
        I got all my money back from the one I talked too. I let her have it good too because I am raging inside and not taking shit from anyone at the moment. It got worse when her facade cracked open and I noticed that the bitch is a narc herself. I could tear her into a new one when I went against her. I was a full blown supernova and I am going to use all my powers to turn you into ashes! I was livid. She began raging and I escalated mine so fast that she looked like a scared rabbit. My money was given back in cash right there. In fact I made her pick it up from where she had thrown it and nearly put it inside of a white envelope. She accused me of being a narc. I just smiled between my growling and welcomed her to the club. She signed my paper of release from any debt. “Treatment” is over. And I told her if she opens her mouth she will have to fight street dogs for food.

        I am angry because even before therapy, I ignored ALL THE RED FLAGS. I consistently ignored all the red flags. And I swear god they were all over the place. Time after time I neglected myself. I put myself at the hands of someone who truly didn’t care about me, my well being. That scares me. I have rebuked all the other narcissists, but I didn’t rebuke him. So my anger is palpable.
        I am coming to terms in a “selfish” manner of what is best for me. Is it the best for me to have a one night stand with a guy who is literally a whore? Is there another way to call someone who will do anything for fuel, even if it means to sleep with any woman, maybe even a prostitute?

        He used to go to strip clubs and pay women to jerk him off. Do you think it stopped on the jerking off? I doubt it.

        Knowing all this now just makes my anger against myself worse if I give in to his charms. I can’t cross that line anymore. Before I could blame on ignorance if not knowing. Now that I know, I can’t use addiction as my excuse especially when someone like HG tells me: once you know, you go.

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          I was so sorry to read your story thank you for sharing it. Of course just the tip of the iceberg.

          I cannot possibly imagine a life like that or what you went through growing up.
          Some horrible cruelties.

          I can sense and hear the frustration you must feel currently. particularly as you say the way that emotional trauma is kind of brushed aside vs physical traumas… but that is changing slowly and gaining momentum I do think.

          The anger and rage that you feel against all that has happened is absolutely understandable it’s also a little bit of a safety valve too I think because while you’re feeling that it helps the pain to be manageable if anyone can honestly say manageable.

          But yes the sheer bloody anger at everything that occured.. the guts to reach out to a therapist and then to be thwarted there as well with incompetence and a lack of understanding. consequently a lack of validation for those serious and horrible circumstances that you have had to try to come to terms with.

          Here and with HG we are all understood and validated and helped with going forward but for me personally there is still a bit of anger deep down inside because even at the end of the day with all the understanding in the world, the buck stops here.

          The final steps the ongoing walk can be lonely… it is inevitably so because we can be supported but we close our eyes and sleep at night we have to manage our insides by ourselves… if I can describe it that way.

          Of course that is the case sounds a silly thing for me to write but all I’m trying to say is that also makes me angry personally.. is being in that position at all.

          Nevertheless this position is also transient although we’ll never forget any of it always carry it with us there will still be other things for us that we can live with and find a better life with… we can still have a better life just with ourselves and never forgetting that we can always take the power to change our circumstances.

          We can believe that we can go forward we can believe that there is still a tomorrow for us where these things in our past remembered and haunt at times but that they don’t continually torture going forward..

          Keep a true heart and belief in yourself.
          Keeping believing..

          When we find ourselvesg havong a good belly laugh for the first time.. smiling for the first time without thinking about it and suddenly becoming aware we are doing it.
          Realising we haven’t thought about a certain thing for the first time in a long time.. all these things are part of the gifts we have too.. as you will know… and the gift of awakening.

          None of this broke us irreparably.

          No. all this they did all. all this we accepted and didn’t accept is not irreparable.

          Ohhh not by far.

          The narcissist is right to say that this is not over but it it is for different reasons that it is not over from a highly sensitive person or empath person point of view.

          It is over for the narcissist when the empath is Awakened.

          The Awakening takes care of the complacency and off we therefore go.


          1. Kathy Mor says:

            This whole situation has been uncovering layers upon layers from my memory to where I reach the raw emotion of feeling myself as that little girl that I once was. It is like this space inside of me goes back in time and I remember, I relieve the emotions and I can place them in time now. It began when he started the devaluation process and instead of reacting to it, I let it be. This time was different than the other times. I didn’t react. I had never heard of the grey stone but that is how I reacted to him during our last dinner as he devalued me further and further. I say there impenetrable. Just looking at him. No emotions. I was not faking it. I just suddenly felt empty from him pulling away. There was no reciprocity whatsoever. It made him mad, I know but I did unintentionally. When I read about the grey rock, I was astounded.
            This time, it felt that he meant the disengagement in a different way than the past or maybe it felt that way because we were face to face.
            But going back to my childhood with all the abuse and neglect, the pain is just the same. The deep fear of abandonment that it is difficult to explain because it comes from my childhood is here now. It is deeper. It comes from a sense of helplessness. My mother threaten to leave me all the time. All the time. I always remember the words. I forgot the emotional memory of how terrified it made me feel. Terrified to death! Yes, to death! I would get so terrified that I thought I was going to die without her because she made me believe that she was the only person who would ever love me. Of course I believed her. She is my mom. She wanted me to be dependent on her and yet I remember her huge sermons about how important independence is, that she wanted me to grow to be independent, while emotionally she was hooking me in every possible way.

            She is a fucking covert narcissist and I hate that side of her. HATE. And she would drink and I would beg her to stop because she could die and I was scared. One time, I looked her while I was in tears and she had this stupid smile on her face like: oh she really loves me! OMG! If I could go back in time, I would beat her up!
            I felt so deeply miserable that no one was there for me. So insecure that I depended on her to eat. No one would take care of me but my grandmother, who was another fucked up narcissist. I was swimming with sharks taking bites here and there my entire life. I had to fight to survive.
            I always wondered: What will happen to me if my mom dies? and I was sure I would die to! I was 100% I was going to die if she did.

            Those buried feelings are back and alive right now.
            The anger is not anger. It is pure fury, visceral, gut wrenching fury. If my narcissist could know what I am going through, he would drown in fuel, literally. and I would bring him back so I could kill him again and again and again, in my mind.

            So, I am ranging. I am hurting.

            Then last night I was under the covers quiet, boiling in anger, thinking what and how I can hurt him so deeply that I handicap him further. Then suddenly the thought came to me. How about if my narc dies? Like really dies? Then I went into the deepest pain I ever felt. it jerked me up in the bed. I cant quite explain it. I didn’t think I could survive if he died. I know this is complete stupid but I felt that I would die too. I am being honest. If he dies right now, I think I will stop breathing. Why? I am not sure yet. But last night I identified this feeling of loss and despair with the same feeling of loss and despair I felt when I thought my mom was going to die from drinking.

            I transfer all that to my narc! All of it.
            I have the same trauma bond attachment.
            The same.

            I gotta resolve this if I want to move on because if I don’t, I wont move on.My next relationship will be a trauma bond relationship.
            I have to resolve this. I have to.

            Today I barely talked to my mother. I avoid it because she is still abusive in a different way. Now she is a drama queen. It does not matter what you say, life is never good enough and I should go back and live with her. She has a way to “suffer for you” and will use those emotional hooks that honestly, I don’t know how to answer other than yell at her. It makes me possessed so I am rude towards her, callous, and cold. I never say I love you to her. Never. Even though I love her. I think. I don’t know if I do because I don’t know who the fuck she is. She is a narcissist!

            So, I naturally avoid talking to her and I keep my son away from her claws because she tries to reach up to him. HELL NO.

            In the past, I had to control myself to not physically attack my mom. These days, I had zero tolerance to her bullshit. So, I stay away. My brothers blame me for my father’s death. I can care less. Suicide is sad but it has always been my dad’s choice. Mine was to keep distance from him as all in him yelled: NARCISSISM. Go figure why I was raised by narcissists, dated ONLY narcissists, married a narcissist, and my last partner was a narcissist.
            I am shocked I am not a narc myself! Maybe I am and I am in denial. Confusion.

            I am not ready to forgive my narc. I don’t want to be in a relationship with him but now I am the one saying: I am not ready to let him go spiritually. Maybe as I heal I get there but I don’t know. I gave him the benefit of doubt. Yet I listen to HG saying that a mid range narc is not fully aware of what he does, so I keep telling myself to slow down, calm down, take care of myself. But in the back of my mind when I remember our last face to face conversation, my blood fucking boils. So, I am not ready just yet.
            Sorry for writing so much. I just need to tell this to people who can understand me….

          2. DebbieWolf says:


            No need to apologise for any length of post. Your feelings matter immensly and should be expressed when you feel you wish to do so.

            you have been surrounded by narcissists and so it is the language that you understand in a strange way linking up with a narcissist by choice is just because you are speaking the language in a way, or understanding the familiarity of engaging with them.

            Of course the first steps are taken with all the awareness that you have now.
            There’s a lot of healing on the inside for you to deal with.

            Forgiveness is not something on the outside that you can give to other people so don’t so don’t be hard on yourself in any way I can understand why that can’t be projected outward.

            It’s All About You Now. and I think the best any of them could possibly hope for is that you’re not out there trying to get even.

            All of that is a waste of energy and your time.

            Everything Must Be concentrated on you.
            you will not die without any of them.
            you are conditioned to believe that you need them in some way and that’s why you’ve recreated it by getting with a narcissist.

            nobody has taken care of you properly and so you think you need someone to take care of you properly and keep looking for that person ..this is just my opinion.

            I would like to get a hold of you as that little girl hold you in my arms.
            be kind and tender sweet with you, look after you tell you how wonderful you are, a lovely and valuable person and that everything is going to be alright and that I wouldn’t let anything hurt you… that I would protect you and that is what I would do.
            So I will say it today to that little girl in you, to the woman you are now that things have been difficult horrible and horrendous, somehow you will get through all of this you genuinely will it isn’t just words.

            if you go on YouTube there is a woman called Joanna kujath.
            I think you need some female positive Energy. from a highly sensitive person who is a care bringer and light worker.
            no disrespect to HG in anyway as he is a male energy of instruction and information…

            This particular lady has so much experience that I personally believe would benefit you and help you.. it is loving caring tender sweet and very enlightening in a spiritual way but just in a way of goodness it is not any kind of Bible thumping or anything like that.

            I hope he will allow me to recommend her to you here.. I personally believe you will find some peace and help as you work through your healing.. without it being terribly laborious but more in line with that still quiet voice. To help you feel and find love for yourself inside because you deserve it Kathy.

            Dear Kathy.. you are valuable, you are loved in the world and you will be loved going forward by others who will find you and will genuinely love you too. you are worth it. You matter. You count. Furthermore, do not feel guilty for these feelings of anger or for any dark thoughts, they are perfectly natural you may as well bully the moon for being in the night sky as to bully yourself with guilt.
            Your feelings are valid and understandable.

            When you begin to forgive yourself for all of the things that frankly you have no reason to be down on yourself over, things caused by other people, when you begin to understand yourself more and more things will change inside.

            Forgiveness all around and across the board is not an act that we can send out there necessarily.

            It is something on the inside where understanding lives.. it is about that i.e. working for you personally on the inside so that you feel steady.

            There are things in this world that are unforgivable on the outside.. we must concentrate on the inside of us so we can be still .. things flow from that state.

            These things are not easy …you know that more than I do.
            I’m telling you that I know you will make it.
            I can just tell Kathy.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.. it is like waves crashing against the shore.. never apologise for the natural act of doing that.
            Nature is beautiful and we are its pieces.
            With love
            Debbie x

          3. Kathy Mor says:

            Thank you, HG for allowing Debbie refer me to that lady and thank you Debbie for doing so.
            You are welcome Debbie…. ((hug))

      2. Blank says:

        @DebbieWolf… you seem like a really good person. Big hug to you xx

        @KathyMor, I read your story and I am sending you my love and wish you the best for your narc recovery. Debbie said it all, one step at a time we can rebuild. Once we know we can heal. Take care xx

      3. Bibi says:


        I subscribe to Joanna too! I did so more for her HSP videos but I do find her incredibly soothing.

        She speaks a lot about HSPs and narcissists interaction, etc. She seems so sweet. She has an old beagle pup that sometimes sits in the background of her videos.

    2. Bibi says:

      Hey Kathy:

      I read your posts and relate to much of what you said, as my dad was a Lesser Narc/sociopath. He did a lot of shit that fucked me up later in life, which I still find myself feeling now. Mostly with lack of confidence, insecurities, wanting public ‘approval’ for my talents as a means to quell whatever lack I feel within.

      The worst thing he did was take me away from my mom when I was very young, after they divorced, as a means to punish her. To this day I still deal with feelings of abandonment. He didn’t care how it might affect me, he just wanted to hurt and to punish her.

      His whole family was fucked up and I went no contact from him after I graduated hs because he would have done more damage otherwise.

      I had a lot of anger and feelings of betrayal then for the Mid Ranger I later encountered, as I felt our friendship was a true intimacy that went deeper than anything sexual, but he betrayed that with his lies and deceit, then turned it around on me as though I was the needy one.

      I had a lot of boiling rage for him that you describe b/c I felt so violated. I remember Skyping with him when my beautiful cat died suddenly and there he was, pretending to comfort me while hiding so much about himself and never sharing his own vulnerabilities. I had let him in to see the raw, unfiltered me and then he used that later against me.

      He simply lacked any conscience.

      I can’t say when exactly the anger abated, but it did suddenly one day. It helped to learn what he was and how pathetic he is and now I feel nothing at all.

      Though I know when/if I ever get word of my dad dying I will end up crying because I know I will. It is strange to cry over someone who hurts you so, partly because I remember those good times and then how lonely he was, albeit he managed to push everyone away b/c of his hatefulness.

      The one thing I regret is having picked up some of his bad habits, like some of my rage comes from seeing him punch holes in walls (I don’t do that but I have had my share of screaming), but they say we pick up ‘fleas’.

      HG, what are your thoughts on that–when they say we pick up narcissistic ‘fleas’?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I have mentioned this previously Bibi, it is not correct that one picks up narcissistic fleas. What actually happens is that you either have a Super Empath who goes supernova or the victim is not a SE but is placed in a ‘do or die’ situation and with eroded empathy fights back, but it isn’t narcissistic fleas, that is incorrect.

        1. windstorm says:

          Thank you, HG, for explaining about the “narcissistic fleas” comment. It is always enlightening and helpful when you take the time to explain any question from a commenter. I know you have many calls on your time and I am always very appreciative of any explanations you provide.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

      2. Bibi says:

        Thank you, HG.

  17. Kiki says:

    Hi Ladies and HG ,
    I think this question may be more suited to the ladies here though.
    Have any of you lost all attraction sexual energy after being discarded .
    I have and it is really bothering me .Its like ex narc just took that part of me with him and left me feeling hollow inside .
    I am out a while but still hovers all benign and I feel I attractive and hopeless.I know I am attractive but I don’t feel it anymore.I don’t flirt with men and cower from them.
    Has anyone any experience of this.If I think of sex ,closeness etc I think of him and feel horrible even angry.So I avoid it .
    I used to love nice underwear ,now I baulk when I see this stuff in shops.
    It’s like my femininity and sexual being has been killed .

    1. DebbieWolf says:


      Do not worry about this at all I promise.
      it is completely natural for some people to feel this way for it to affect you like this I have had this in the past and I was also concerned I literally thought I would never get any Desire back.

      I would look at men that other people found attractive that I could see were attractive and feel nothing.

      I would have to turn the TV over if I saw somebody kissing even as it made me feel sick…. I had a lot of very fancy underwear too I couldn’t stand the sight of it….

      this wasn’t with my last ex but with somebody from before.

      I actually thought that was it for me in life as regards desire and the whole thing.

      it isn’t the end it does come back it’s a perfectly natural reaction for some people to feel this way after being terribly hurt. …all of this is grieving.
      you are in a state of grief. grief is not just there after somebody dies.
      nevertheless or what we go through in these situations is grief something something has died… no it isn’t you inside and it isn’t your desire…. that is just a temporary side effect from the death of the relationship.
      it was an illusory fake person that you had dealings with and as such it was a relationship just not an authentic one.

      Everybody is different but your body knows when it’s ready, even if you don’t believe that, stop thinking about it for now and get on with everything else you can and eventually everything will change back.

      Your body knows what it wants and it also knows what it doesn’t want.

      Just don’t overthink it, put it to the back burner and just concentrate on looking after yourself generally.

    2. Bibi says:

      Normally I don’t think about this sort of stuff. Though when there was a somatic doing his somatic thing, (I never dated him, he just played me) I did begin feeling sexier. I walked differently when under his spell and I noticed more men would notice me because I was walking with more confidence.

      Many years of him gone from my life, and I am back to how I was before. I don’t find anyone attractive, I probably walk the way I used to (lost in my zone of thought), my mind is focused on things that need to get done and I don’t fantasize about anyone. Certainly this is a ‘healthier’ way to be–it’s definitely more productive–but it’s probably not as fun.

      But I have to remember that when the somatic was seducing me, he was also seducing several others, including his current fuel source, whom he impregnated 6 months into their ‘relationship’ and has yet to marry her. Barf.

      Thankfully, another bullet dodged.

    3. Kathy Mor says:

      It is normal to feel that way. It is part of coming out of the “immersion in him” and that deep intimacy, perhaps the deepest you ever experienced. Let me tell you that I have forced myself to imagine him having sex with other women so I can get that out of my system and stop to think that such a whore is so special. He is not. He is just s dog.

      Some days ago, I was even afraid of thinking about having sex with another guy. I felt really detached from myself in a hollow way because I was completely attached to him. His mistake is HUGE and he will only realize that all this time is costing him every bit of control over me. LOL!
      I was asexual, until I convinced myself that he is having hot sex with someone else. That was it for me. Not only the beginning of that feeling of aversion for him is coming to the surface and being more permanent to where I don’t feel so horny for him anymore, but I am actually curious how it is to have sex with guy that can share himself, more than his private parts. I look at my underwear and think: hmmm…. victoria secret time.
      If we lived closer to each other, we could all go shopping for new stuff! That would be fun!

      1. Bibi says:


        When I landed a new job and could afford it, I spent the past few years upgrading my wardrobe and ‘decorating’ myself more with nice earrings and jewelry I liked. But the difference is that I do it because I like it and I want to do it for me, as a self-expression thing, and I don’t think about what some narcissist might think or how he will perceive me. And I went on pursuing my talents and interests–reading, educating myself on a variety of topics, enjoying films, etc. It feels good to do something because it’s what I want and not what any narcissist wants.

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          That’s where I am at now.
          No text messages controlling my every step
          I eat whatever I want
          I go to the gym if I want to
          I bought earrings because I like them
          I sleep if I want to
          I do whatever I want to

          I don’t have to worry if he is going to find out or not. We are disengaged.

          I disappeared though. No social media updates. No answering messages from anyone. Nothing. I don’t look at his stuff and I don’t look at mine either.
          I dropped off the grid completely.

          I am looking at other things to do, other groups of people….

          1. windstorm says:

            Kathy Mor
            Freedom! Sounds great! Now you’re free to be yourself. 👍

    4. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


      I understand what you are talking about. My sexuality died during my relationship with my double ex. Post-break up I had no real desire to become intimate with anyone. The very thought made me want to cringe. I didn’t really flirt or have any want to engage. The whole thing disgusted me.

      I became angry when people would sexualize me. To be honest with you…it’s been two weeks since my break up with the dirty doc and I am feeling similarly. I’m becoming angry again. I used to be a very flirtatious person (pre my double ex – the one that liked when I would humiliate him and liked dick). Now…not so much. I have to be insanely turned on to go there with anyone and to be honest with you…no one does it for me.

      It’s strange this time around (for me at least) I have this anger that is like re-emerging and disgust for intimacy but also a desire for it. Since I was having a lot of sex prior to the breakup and the sex was actually really fucking good (I hate to admit that) I feel like this need for it. I wouldn’t call the sex we had to be the kinkiest I’ve had at all – it was just really good. I would never let him touch me again – I’d rip my skin off but I feel the need for something….it’s like this itch….it’s hard to even articulate. It’s probably for the best that I don’t have anything to scratch the itch because when I do…it’s usually something really bad lmao.

      Bottom line – it goes away lol.

      Right now I’m in some strange limbo between desire and disgust when before it was just sheer disgust and I didn’t want to be sexualized.

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you Dr Harleen , it’s nice to know I’m not alone in this.
        I do equate sex with feelings and I learned I can’t separate the two.
        I wish I could ,it would be more fun wouldn’t it .
        Ex narcs are like an anti sex drive pill .
        I was reading that getting regular massage therapy, just allowing physical non threatening touch is good , and tuning back into your sexual side ( how that’s done I don’t know ) is needed.

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        That is actually a weakness of mine LMAO – one that was exploited by every narc I’ve ever been with hahaha!!

        I mean hey – at least I can laugh about it..

        The massage thing…

        I have difficulty internally calming down and one of the only ways that like calms me down…or shuts me up… is like to massage me or pet me lmao…

        It’s like a button…if I’m on level 8 and you pet me….i’ll easily come down a few notches and probably pass out lmao

      3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        The dirty doc took full advantage of that when I was in an irritable mood – it essentially makes me more compliant LMAO….

    5. INFJsoulsearcher says:

      Kiki….. YES to all of it. I’m 2 months out, no contact. I feel numb most days, in every way. I was beautiful inside and out, in the best shape of my life, felt the healthiest I’d ever been. Then I met my ex Narc. We know how that goes. I didn’t even really notice that I was stopping taking care of myself. I feel like I’ve been raped. In that feeling the thought of any form of connection, especially intimate makes me feel jumpy and my skin crawls. It’s terrifying to actually realize the effects of true Narc abuse. I know deep down I can get past this, but I know it’s a loooong, hard, lonely road ahead of me to get there. One day though!! I wish for you with all my heart to keep fighting to want intimacy again someday. We deserve it!! We can’t let them win, we just can’t!!

  18. DebbieWolf says:


    But will you hoover every one of your romantic victims again then. And repeatedly? How can you even keep up with it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It depends on whether there is a hoover trigger and whether the hoover execution criteria are met.

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        I suppose it does imply then that you will try to.. otherwise how would you know whether the criteria was being met? All that would remain is the 6th fear of course.. which the victim has no control over.
        Thank you for your reply.

    2. DebbieWolf says:

      6th sphere….not fear.

      I have the screenshot of the original but it changed when I sent it there’s something odd with this phone.

  19. Tizzzi says:

    Hello HG, my questions are:
    did you hoover your exes just once or did you hoover them many times?
    Did you hoover only your ipps or also all your ipss?
    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have hovered some once, some many times, both IPPS and IPSS.

  20. Bwak! says:

    We are only “your” property in your own mind, which has absolutely nothing to do with us or any other reality. Your sick mind exists within the 10 inches that holds your brain. Outside of that, you really don’t exist. If you hold onto your victims until your death, then that’s you. To them, in their minds and in their reality, they are not your property. You elevate “your kind” in the same way a peacock elevates its tail. All smoke and mirrors. A big show. But take all that away to see what you really are beneath the plumage, and you’re just a skinny little chicken. Nothing more. For victims to realize and grasp this fact, would serve them better and would go a lot further than for you to put the big bugaboo on them. Til death! Sounds so ominous. But again, it’s like a 10 foot shadow projected by a 1 inch mouse. This article is nothing more than churning words so people will accept your mindset, which in turn propagates the delusion, which allows you to manipulate further. Your kind would have it no other way. When your victims see you for what you really are, nothing “greater” about you, just a flawed mentally unstable person who needs to be locked away from the rest of society, then they stop being your property. This reads like a horror. Like the guy with the crazy eyes and tilted head holding a knife as he he sings some lyric in a minor key. “All mine all mine til death do us part” to a chained up scared little girl he has kidnapped and is holding in a cargo container. It’s that level off the charts insane.

    1. lisa says:

      Bwak, I agree with everything you say, but so does HG, this is exactly what he’s teaching us about what Narcissists really are . He’s telling us all of this so WE are no longer as deluded as the narcissists mental state

    2. Mercy says:

      Bwak, you seem bitter. HG writes from the narc prospective. It’s harsh but it is reality. I agree that what is written is only in their mind and only pertains to their world and their way of thinking. This site is not here to hold our hand through recovery, it is here to educate. Do you think you could learn about your relationship with the narcissist through the lies he/she is telling you? You will never hear the truth from a narc you are dealing with?

      I do not think he elevates his kind, I think he is revealing a twisted dark secret that needs to be paid attention to. It is us that elevates his kind when we have the knowledge but choose to stay.

      1. Kathy Mor says:

        Pisses me off when I see people attacking HG and yet I also look at it as a normal reaction. So, when I am ready to hit the keyboard, I tell myself: FUEL.

    3. saskia says:

      In my view you made some valid points in your comment, Bwak, and I agree with some, particularly with the first part on property and also with regards to (further) manipulation and delusion – narrative and language are a narcissist’s weapon in order to construct and (further) manipulate.

      What came to my mind when reading your comment and what I admittedly like about the oftentimes powerful narrative HG uses – and also about the ’til death’-hullabaloo – is the very fact that it, in my view, serves to drastically emphasize that victims of narcissistic abuse HAVE to take action, that they are bound to stand up for themselves and to take active steps in order to break the abusive cycle and to free themselves from toxic patterns.

      So yes, I agree with your first notion – as long as the victim does not remain receptive to the narcissist’s advances and takes every step necessary in order to remain no contact, them being a property is but a construct (or an opportunity) in the narcissist’s mind, albeit it will last for a lifetime.

  21. INFJsoulsearcher says:

    Yes I’m seeing that unfortunately this is the case. Being recently free and in hyper awareness of the abuse inflicted it’s easy to maintain no contact, etc. He has slinked away due to many factors of my knowledge on him that could potentially harm him and call him out. I’m remaining silent to protect myself and whatever peace of mind I have left at this moment. But I’m trying to not be naive and do know that overtime I’m bound to in whatever way bump into him. I’m afraid of my reaction, temporary amnesia of the abuse, even for just a moment that will let him hoover me. And then no matter how long it’s been I’ll be somewhat back in his trauma snare and have to get out once again. Even if just mentally. For now I’m trying to not think that far ahead and heal. Hoping I’ll be to strong by then for him to affect me. Hoping! So yes for sure, till death do us part!

  22. BrokenRainbow says:

    I did not know this until I came here but I suspected my relationship with my ex was different. I always felt there was a connection between us that “normal” relationships did not contain. It was something I felt deep inside. When I realized more about the narcissistic relationship (in your kind eyes), everything became clear.

    “Those that declare that it was the final discard, invariably state it from one of two perspectives – firstly, that they have done something so terrible to the narcissist that he or she would never dare to darken their doorstep again or secondly it is said because they want the twisted confirmation that it isn’t the “final discard” and the narcissist will return because the addicted victim wants the narcissist to return again.”

    I can relate to this in a way but not with a discard. For a long time, I did have the twisted view that I wanted him to return. I now realize it is part of the addiction. He told me afterwards that he spent time looking for me in the places we used to frequent but he never saw me. He is now hoovering me through a third party as he has no way to get hold of me.

    Death. Him or me. I would be very very sad if he did die but I think there would be some semblance of relief. Relief that I would no longer have to have this guard up.

    I will win this battle. Not him!

    1. amanda SNapchat says:

      you go girl!

      1. BrokenRainbow says:

        amanda SNapchat


  23. Kiki says:

    Hi ,
    HG I have stopped reading other relationship blogs as they really haven’t a clue .The insight you give is the clearest ,scariest dose of reality that truly empowers us empaths once the shock wears off.
    You get to the core of all the WHYS , that paralyse us .I never ask ex narc why anymore ,since I found your blog.
    Knowing now its an utter waste of my time.
    I am predicting his behaviour ,before it would be devastating me and confusing me .Now I smile and come here , and yep I’m a step ahead thanks to you .
    Thank you HG , you really empower us empaths , you do not have to , but you do and that makes you really special and unique in my eyes.
    Your work has the power to change so many empaths lives.


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Kiki and I agree.

  24. Blondie says:

    HG how often have you reinstated a formal relationship witha previous ex be it ipss or ips…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I never take the former IPPS back as a current IPPS as I am nomadic, I hoover them, but not to reinstate. As for IPSSs occasionally they have been reinstated, but more usually they are not disengaged with to be begin with, so it is a continuation of the formal relationship as they are taken off the shelf again.

      1. Blondie says:

        Thankyou fo reply ..that makes everthing clear now ,could not figure it out till you explained so well.

  25. G says:

    Wouldn’t YOU feel happier to let it go?
    Like, after 12 years? I see that it is more harmful for you then for your “ prey”, no?
    Because although you think she belongs to you in your mind but in her mind she really does not. I am very sure about it, because the if the guy would contact me, I would answer him … but he is not in my heart at all..
    Maybe, in the end you accumulate all this energy inside of you and would be better just let go. How excite it would be to live without someelse energy inside of you?

    1. amanda SNapchat says:

      i feel it would be more like if u saw your socks on the street. If u saw them on the street you would pick them up. “hey what are my socks doing there?!” You likely are not even thinking about them. But if you see them and they are yours, you pick them up. I don’t think there is much energy spent here.

  26. Dtheexvictim says:


    how the narcissist react/feel when the ex victim stops romanticizing the narcissist and becomes cynical towards him? When he tries a benign approach, being kind and friendly but the victim only redicules him? When the victim becomes cold as ice, do the narcissist gets frustrated that his every move is being rebuffed with victims cynicism and comtempt? I am trying this approach – not giving him fuel, not hating him, not loving him, just looking at him as he was a worthless trash, inferior human who doesn’t deserve the interaction with me.

    Do narcissists feel that? Do they know “this victim is stronger than I thought, there is no way I can break her” or something like that?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This causes extensive wounding, however, it is very hard for you to be proximate to us and not provide some fuel. Therefore what usually happens is that you provide Challenge Fuel.

  27. Roxanne says:

    Still, that is true as long as the Target feels like a target. If not, the hoovering is just a disperate N attempt to elicit attention or emotional reaction. As long as the hoovered one feels like a victim, the hoovering will result in some emotional response, very true. It is the Target duty to escape victim mode and that can be achieved one the victim understands she is not a real victim of the Narc but of her own emotional pattern. She is the one who felul for N because consciously or unconsciously she has been waiting for one of this kind. It’s not to say he is not guilty of all the horrible things he did, he is guilty as hell, but the victim should investigate get one share of blame. Once she does that, it doesn’t really matter if he hoovers or not. Let him hoover till his last breath and tu ce him a dose of their own medicine.
    Yes, guess what, I’ve just been hoovered and it felt like power. Like sweet sweet power. Sorry, HG, narcs are basically schematic beeings, no matter how sophisticated their schemes might appear from the outside. Once one sees their actions for what they really are, they loose their power and no longer seem fascinating or atractive.
    So, dear victims, unlearn your brain patterns that brought you in liking the Narc in the first place. That is your inside battle and the most important one post your escape. And then let him hoover. Just stop investing yourself emotionally.

    1. Roxanne says:

      Ufff, the input language of the smartphone ruined my eloquency 🙁 Me not happy….

    2. Michelle says:

      I agree with your points, Roxanne. We assign meaning to hoovers that they don’t have. We think, “Obviously he missed me,” or, “He wanted me back so I’m vindicated.” Hoovers mean none of these things. Once we realize that, we stop wanting it.

  28. Lisa says:

    Yep. Agree. It’s been 12 months since I even went out socialising. For no other reason than it’s been winter and I’ve been busy doing other things. But…low and behold….IT appears from nowhere on my first outing! Suspicious much? I think so……
    Thanks HG.

  29. Perse says:

    The Grim Reaper is my friend!!!!!

  30. lisa says:

    I truly believe mine won’t ever hoover again and that’s because , i’ve moved, so i’m no longer convenient , no residual benefits whatsoever , no fuel whatsoever just complete indifference and he’s experienced this numerous times and no facade benefits because i’m miles away . He’s also prone to Flight as his main one , storms off quite regularly and the last time did this due to not only my indifference but my Your making me Feel sick look that i gave him . I think my defences are so high plus he knows there’s zero fuel , he won’t do it again . I think indifference to a narcissist is like a cross to a vampire !!! I’ve also blocked FB and Messenger. It’s been hard even letting go of that final contact which was friends only , well what’s he’s capable of. But i honestly think that’s it now HG, you say the defences have to be high, i think they are , he knows i can’t be in his company and that’s critisising him

    1. WM says:

      I thought I replied to this, maybe I didn’t. I think HG is right, they can always potentially hoover, right up until death. I said it would never happen, the narc endured such an awful trauma last year and I know he is a complete and utter mess. If I see him he gets indifference, but after nine months of silence, in came the email.

      N used to thrive on winding me up, and he was so good at it. But I stopped reacting a very long time ago. If he is nice to me, I am nice back, if he ignores me, I ignore him back (and don’t get emotional). Obviously he’s wound me up emailing, must have felt the vibe of me telling a couple of people I no longer want the anxiety of him in my life.

      I am curious to know what he wants though…but he will never feed on my emotions again.

  31. Michelle says:

    Of all the narcissistic patterns, I find this one the most bewildering by far, though I have certainly witnessed it enough. I have some questions:

    1.) Does having inflicted a narcissistic injury (e.g. exposing the narcissist to himself) affect the likelihood of a hoover? What about timing?
    2.) Once devalued and discarded, is it possible to be entirely re-idealized again?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It raises the hoover bar, but the effect diminishes with the effluxion of time.
      2. Yes.

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