Dealing With The Evidence


Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, believes in the truth and has to have the truth known. This is not done from any sense of gloating or about showing how clever and virtuous the empathic person is. The empath operates this way because: –

  1. They want the truth to be known by third parties;
  2. They want to demonstrate that they are correct;
  3. They want to preserve their self-worth by showing the truth of the situation;
  4. They want to show other people that the narcissist is in the wrong;
  5. They want to demonstrate to the narcissist that what the narcissist has done or said is wrong. This is often done to try to help the narcissist, to heal and to fix, rather than engage in point scoring;
  6. It is done to preserve their sanity in the face of the false reality and all its manipulations which are deployed by our kind.

It often takes an empathic person a considerable amount of time to realise that merely explaining what has happened to our kind gets them absolutely nowhere. You may know precisely what has happened but if your recollection of events, no matter how accurate, does not accord with what we require, challenges us, stops us achieving our aims or worst of all constitutes a criticism, we will do anything and everything we can to distort your truth.

I use the phrase ‘your truth’ because it is always important to keep in mind that with each and every situation there is the Empathic Perspective and there is the Narcissistic Perspective. For example, you serve food for everybody and you start with the person nearest to you and this results in our kind being served last. From the Empathic Perspective, you regard this action as the most practical and the politest. From the Narcissistic Perspective, we view this as a criticism; we should have been served first. This criticism results in us being wounded, this causes the ignition of our fury and we may storm out of the dining room through our cold fury or we may fling the plate at the wall as a manifestation of heated fury, either actions occurring in order to draw fuel to heal the wound that has been created by your criticism of us.

Thus, you have the same event but two different perspectives. If you tried to explain to us that you had served people ahead of us because of practicality all you would be doing is repeating the criticism to us and igniting the fury once again. We will only have regard to our perspective and in the ensuing conversation we would engage in deflection, projection, blame-shifting, word salad and other manipulations to reject what you are asserting. From your perspective it appears innocuous, an over-reaction on our part, but from our perspective our response is completely justified.

What of a situation whereby you suspect we have been cheating with somebody else? Let us assume you have followed us and saw us pick up another woman who we embrace in our car and then head off to some secluded spot, a hotel or another location for the purposes of the tryst. You do not confront us but observe and then wait for our return that evening. You decide to remain calm and when we walk in through the door you state,

“You are cheating on me with a blonde-haired woman. I saw you pick her up this afternoon, kiss her and then I followed you to The Happy Ending Motel and saw you go in a room together.”

If you said this angrily, we would draw fuel from your reaction. We would recognize that this is an opportunity to gain more fuel from you and therefore we would look for ways to provoke you further. You are also challenging us. Whilst it does not manifest as a criticism, we still do not appreciate you trying to challenge our superiority and our entitlement to do as we please.

If you made this comment in a calm and neutral manner, you do not provide us with any fuel. You are also criticising us.

You have seen what has happened. It is not hearsay but you have witnessed our behaviour and you have told us so, providing sufficient detail to confirm its legitimacy. What might you hear in response? There are many different replies.

Denial “No I haven’t. I have been at work all afternoon.” Yes, we will be this brazen. Lies come easily to us.

Deflection. “Yes I was dropping a colleague off. She is staying there for a few days and we needed to talk about a project. You know the new plans for the development in the Old Quarter, well we are involved in that now and we need to put a proposal together in a very short time.” On we go talking about something else.

Projection. “I wasn’t doing anything wrong, not like you and that fellow, what is he called, Mike, I saw you getting close to him last week when you went for coffee.” This may or may not be true, it does not matter. It serves to draw a reaction from you and allows us to move the conversation away from what we have done.

Blame-Shift. “Who do you think you are following me? Who gives you the right to do that? There is something wrong with you. I am sick of you trying to control me.”

Blame-Shift. “So what if I am seeing somebody else, if you put out more than once in a blue moon, I wouldn’t have to go elsewhere would I? I am sick of working hard and coming in to this kind of crap.”

Disappearance – we just turn around and walk back out and disappear to some bolt hole for a few days.

Denial and Projection “I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.”

Deflection and Gas Lighting “Oh that, nothing to worry about there, she is new to the company and I was showing her to where she is staying until her new apartment is ready. I know her from the Southern Office, so I greeted her with a kiss, that was all. Anyway, I told you I was doing this last week, don’t you remember? Yes, I told you all about it over dinner, you must have forgotten again. You seem to be doing that a lot recently.”

Verbal assault “Who do you fucking think you are? You are a miserable old cow. Creeping around watching what I am doing. Jesus, you are so fucking sad, I am sick of you. Look at the state of you.” Cue a tirade of insults which may escalate into breaking things and even attacking you.

No matter how you try to point out to us that you have seen us, you know what you saw, you know what the other woman looks like we will not hear what you are saying.

If you keep going and do so in an emotional manner, all we focus on is the fuel that we are giving you and continuing to provoke you to get more fuel.

If you do it without providing fuel, all we hear is the criticism. This wounds us and forces us to seek fuel from you (or if you continue not to provide it we will be forced to withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere).

We will not accept what you are saying, no matter how convincing you are and no matter how much detail you provide. You will be accused of making it up, reading something into nothing, taking it the wrong way, being confused, being mistaken along with all and more of the other manipulations mentioned above.

What about providing some independent evidence to us? What if you have evidence from our phone, in a document, an e-mail, a sound recording or a video? You decide to show us a video of what we did that afternoon in the hope and expectation that we must surely accept what we have done. It is there, recorded and on the screen. How will we respond?

Once again, depending on the way you have conveyed this to us, you will have either provided fuel (telling us there is more) and you have challenged us or you have criticised us. Our perspective means we need fuel, we want fuel, we need to assert our superiority, we need to maintain control, we need to keep you submissive and manipulated. Astonishing as it may seem, you can expect reactions akin to those above and these as well: –

  1. We will tell you the footage has been edited to make us look bad;
  2. We will say that the footage does not show the whole picture and is taken out of context;
  3. We will say it is somebody who looks like us but isn’t us;
  4. We will try to delete the footage;
  5. We will damage the device on which the footage is held;
  6. We will produce some different evidence which points to some imagined transgression on your part and focus on that instead;

If you have independent evidence of any kind, its production engenders the same response as detailed above because we look at it from an entirely different perspective. You can expect the independent evidence to be attacked, tampered with or destroyed along with the plethora of manipulations that have been described above.

You may think that showing our kind definitive proof of our wrongdoing would cause us to hold our hands up and admit we have been caught. It does not work with our kind in that way. We have been designed to see things in a different way so that we will respond to protect ourselves from your criticism (or to draw more fuel and head off your challenge) and that is what we see and hear – criticism and/or fuel. These devices and manipulations occur because: –

  1. We are never at fault;
  2. We are superior to you;
  3. We must be in control;
  4. We are omnipotent;
  5. You are inferior;
  6. We are entitled to do what we want;
  7. We need fuel; and
  8. We hate criticism.

Save your independent evidence for the third parties. Save your breath and your sanity.

The only thing you will ever prove is how predictable, as narcissists, we are, when are confronted with proof.

17 thoughts on “Dealing With The Evidence

  1. Tammychardsofglass says:

    HG, I have maybe an odd question for you…or a couple…do you still enjoy negative fuel, and hurt other’s intentionally to do It?
    When I was younger, my father would always get pissed off when I would piss people off and enjoy it, telling me I get some kind of rise out of doing so, telling me I was a hateful type of person. I’m the black sheep of long gone friend’s and family. My mother blamed me for everything. Used me as bait to keep My father, amongst other things. But it was my life’s mission to not be like her so I developed empathic traits. I think I didn’t want to hurt anyone because I knew what it felt like. Yet I still got my jollies off pissing people off and thought they deserved what they got. It was like a joke to me, nor did I care what anyone thought. Yet, I’m also a caring empath. It’s like I walk between worlds. Sorry, long winded way to ask a question. And knowing a little of my story, what along with what I asked you, what the fuck does that make me?
    I ask because if anyone knows, it’s you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I still have a need for negative fuel, yes.

    2. wissh says:

      Ineresting because the last thing I want to do is piss anyone off. I’ve actually spent therapy time discussing my ridiculous need to always “be nice.” I don’t yet know enough about narcissism and empaths to understand a caring empath wanting to piss people off.

      1. Twilight says:


        If a caring empath says something that pisses one off, is this due to what they said or due to something one refuses to accept yet recognize it is something they either do or feel?

  2. chardsofglass says:

    Whoo! HG, brings up some stuff for me. It’s odd now because I can never decide if he’s still doing his gaslight mission, or if I’m being rightfully parinoid? That’s not a good feeling.

  3. chardsofglass says:

    I always had a knack for catching him at things. Of course I’m one of those hyperviglent Empaths. I only wished I could’ve left him after a week. A week turned into 5 years. There’s a part of myself still not wanting to believe what happened and how it changed my life.

  4. wissh says:

    Hi HG,
    Having learned all that you have apparently learned, do you still do this? Why is it you’re not ashamed when caught in a lie as we are?
    Narcex used to delight in making me blush. I called him out once for being too sexual in public by telling him I just might call his bluff one day and embarrass him in return. He assured me there’s nothing I could possibly do to embarrass him as he doesn’t get embarrassed. Over anything! Ugh. If only I’d picked up on these things back then.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because I do not experience guilt in the way you do. In some instances the lies we tell are our truth and therefore there is nothing to ‘uncover’ and with Greaters where we know we lie, even if (rarely) caught in the lie we do not care because we are still getting what we want from it – control and fuel.

      1. wissh says:

        Thank you.

  5. awickedwand says:

    hahaaaa – too true. Funny story just last night. So a few weeks ago there was what I refer to now as “The Dryer Sheet Debacle” – a sheet left on floor from laundry. Rant and rave and attack for about an hour or so follows on how I disregard, no respect, failure this and that bla bla bla – y’all know the song and dance that comes with such random insanity. Well, last night I go to switch the laundry and he’d left 2 dryer sheets on the floor that fell out of the dryer. I couldn’t resist. “Hey, you left 2 dryer sheets on the floor.” OMG, you’d think I’d called him impotent. His excuses came flying out at me like crazy monkeys. It was so patheticly sad and revealing. I had to cut him off to say it was really “no big deal…I was just sayin'”

    Anyway, 3 volume novel alert…
    Obviously I, too, have experienced these evasions/projections/blame-shifting/verbal attacks etc. But thanks in large part to HG and his work on this site, once I came to know that some humans really are crocodiles, everything changed and a peace fell over my life. The fight was over, internally and with him, for I cannot reason with a crocodile. However, I have this vague theory forming and as a result, I now recognize him as a little boy in a crocodile suit. He’s decimated so many “appliances” in the past. He is/was drawn to me because of the power and strength that he must have perceived by my unconditional love and natural joy, in spite of, or because of past loss and trauma. His abuse and evasions were epic, constant, malicious and right out of the gate, (tho it de-escalated more than 2 years ago when he quit drinking) that in the end (last month) when I knew I was about to come unglued for good from the cPTSD and continued emotional fuckery, I had no other option but to look inside for what was conspicuously absent (vs. what was “wrong” with me) or I’d never rise again. And what I saw there astonished me (until that moment, the very concept of an “inner me” made me cringe…and therein lie the seeds of my truth and recovery).

    We had literally become mirrors to our deepest, early traumas. It was ME who had abandoned, invalidated, denied, shamed, belittled, gaslighted, and outright rejected and left unprotected the very existence of my own little/inner Self – the perfect Self not yet aware of levels of worthiness or shame about not being “good enought” etc. I’d repressed so epically that I needed such a monster to show me what I’d done to my Self in defense of traumas/shames I’d endured/overcome.

    So my triumph in overcoming this or that throughout my life was only partial because it was always “in spite of” not because I deserved and therefore attracted great things. My N had to be a full-on crocodile for me to get that piece of the puzzle – because I WAS still doing and being and longing for the validation – if I could only convince him of all people, then the clouds would part and the chorus would sing and I’d finally have suffered and sacrificed and proved my strength and unconditional love “enough” and would finally deserve to get in return what I thought I was trying to give him. But how could I convince him if he wouldn’t listen/kept projecting, evading, deflecting, twisting, attacking etc. etc. etc.? And what did I have to offer as I continued to break down, lose myself, and nearly self-destruct at his hands?

    The flaw in my thinking as I see it now:
    “The greater the suffering, self-sacrifice, and endurance for a greater good towards “enough” the greater the reward and redeption.” There could never be a time of reward and redemption because one can always suffer, self-sacrifice, and endure just a wee bit more…

    This belief system was the source of how I inevitably ended up with my N and what better way to my own redemption of self than to “prove” worthy through him? hahaaaaa – it was NEVER going to happen that way. Just a wee bit more…

    BUT, conversely, since I’m his mirror, I can’t help but see that little broken and helpless boy in the croc suit wishing and hoping that I’m the one who won’t fail him in the face of his own monstrosity so that it will be safe for him to unzip the suit and finally come out into the light and learn to be loved and to love as a Man and without fear.

    Meanwhile, now everytime he evades/projects/blame shifts or attacks, I just hear/listen for that damaged child – a child without any but the most primal coping tools using adult words and responses to actually convey what was done and said to him/what he believes about himself. (This is, I believe, at the root of gaslighting) And while it still can hurt if I forget the croc suit is still mostly in control and he bites, I pity his condition all the more. But I also have unconditional love for and gratitude to him. In the big picture, he sacrificed his own humanity to inevitably become the mirror that woke me up to mySelf and redirected me. What a gift.

    And contrary to what HG says he believes (no offence intended), I believe as I continue to heal from his abuse (by also healing from the Original Traumas/Shames that led me to him) and keeping my boundaries in concrete, he will have access to the new “mirror” that I am and am becoming, and will have the opportunity to rise up to meet it. And he shows signs of doing this without, perhaps, knowing it. But like loving a child and practicing consistency of boundaries and consequences, and letting them find their own way, I can’t do his work or take his lumps for him. And thanks in part to HG helping me to recognize all this, I am delievered from the pain and the struggle and the need for trying to prove I’m a worthy, loving, courageous, joyful, patient, understanding, powerful, resiliant, trusting, compassionate, and good woman to a crocodile. Because I am. Not in spite of, but because my Mirror showed me and I proved to myself that I am.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Not what you’ve had to experience, but what you’ve decided to take and learn from it.

    2. wissh says:

      I read it all also, and I agree very little with your conclusions, but I’m not wearing your shoes, it isn’t my life, nor is it up to me to validate yours. What I truly do believe is that whatever gets you through the night, is alright, is alright. I wish you well.

    3. Caroline R says:

      Thank you. You have a way with words that’s engaging and witty, and evokes the feelings perfectly.
      The realisation of our worth, and who we are, is a precious moment in time, after which we’ll never be the same. Our perspective on everything heretofore has permanently shifted.
      I’m pleased that you are feeling like you can occupy your own space unapologetically, seeing yourself as precious and valuable.
      You’ve proven it to yourself, & we support you in that conclusion.

  6. Stephanie says:

    HG can you write about the weaknesses, vulnerabilities and fears of a narcissist. I think most of us empaths realize this is a no win situation. We have been told to do no contact, walk away, not fight back, let it go, because it’s pointless etc. what I’d really like to know is the stuff that keeps you guys up at night, the demons that plague you, how your truly unhappy and alone. I think more articles like that would help us empaths know there really is justice in the end. Narcissist to have to wake up every day to themselves, there’s nothing worse than that. That’s what I’d like to read about.

    1. 2 Steps Forward says:

      Stephanie, I do not think you will ever get an honest answer to that from a narcissist. “the weaknesses, vulnerabilities and fears” are lack of fuel, abandonment, humiliation and criticism, that will get the anger or rage out (or the silent treatment).
      The demons/ the creature… I doubt that will ever be made clear. HG never really explained this, my N-ex husband said that therapy (dealing with the demons) would scare him to death, that it would be pure horror. Narcs do not explain their inner feelings, they do not go in therapy. There is something they can not face. I always wonder if it has to do with sexual abuse. I noticed all my narcs have something ‘gay-ish’ about them (more than non-narcs), either in their behaviour or choice of music. It could also be that narcs were born much more vulnerable / sensitive and that’s why they are not as ‘macho’ as non-narcs.
      Stephanie, although your life could have been hell with the narc, don’t look for justice. No narc is a narc by choice, it’s a disorder. It’s better to let go. Life is not fair, this world is not fair. Let go and try to forget by living the life that makes you happy. xx

      1. wissh says:

        Narcex can’t possibly be more masculine, less gay-ish, as you said. He’s also brilliant. He wouldn’t go into therapy because, well, of course there’s nothing wrong with him, but also, he’s smarter than any therapist. Which may just mean he can manipulate any therapist. Apparently someone figured out something was a bit off with him by his mid teens and tried to make him go to therapy. He was vague in details, so I’m not sure if he never went at all or if he stopped going after one or two sessions.
        As to gayness, without all the details, he had one “accidental” (that I know of, but if lying was an Olympic event he’d win gold) experience in his life with a male, but now that I understand narcissism better, and I know sex means nothing to him other than as a means of obtaining fuel, I think of narcs more as asexual rather than hetero or homosexual. As to sexual abuse, I agree with you, I also wonder how many have had sexual abuse early in their lives. I believe that to be the case for my narcex though he thinks of it as his first sexual “experience” not as abuse. (He was 13, she was 30 and a neighbor, so it went on for quite awhile. I think that’s also when he became Dom.) Getting over my pity and sympathy and learning to accept what is has been a great challenge for me.

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