The Dirty Empath – Infidelity


The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet within these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.

There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).

Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behave in a way which is empathic with other people.

There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through The Empathic Supernova which is when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the class of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them.

This class of Dirty Empath has various streaks which appertain to the relevant narcissistic trait which prevails and this includes the streak of infidelity.

Thus where the empath is already in a romantic relationship, whether living together,boyfriend and girlfriend or married and they embark on a romantic, sexual relationship outside of that relationship, their narcissistic trait of infidelity has risen to the surface and remained there. What has caused that to happen? As ever, it is a symbiotic equation.

From the empath’s side there is something not right within their existing relationship which means that the narcissistic trait comes to the fore.

For instance, let us take the example whereby the spouse of the empath is either an empath or a normal and has become impotent and/or has no interest in sex any more. All else is well within the relationship – they care for the empath, they pull their weight around the home, they are a good parent, they have a decent job and so on. All is largely well, save for the issue of sexual relations. In such a situation, the empathic spouse has the following choices:-

  1. Recognise that all else is well within the relationship, that sex is but one facet (albeit an important one) and accept that it is better to have all of the other good elements of the relationship and therefore not seek to damage the relationship or hurt their spouse by seeking sexual interaction outside of the marriage. This is the response of an empath who has no dirty streak of the narcissistic trait of infidelity;
  2. As above save that the empath regards sex as so significant that they need it yet they do not want to hurt their spouse. Accordingly, they seek their spouse’s blessing to seek sex outside of the marriage but otherwise want nothing more external to the relationship. This is the response of an empath who has the narcissistic trait of infidelity but it is not so strong as to amount to a dirty streak;
  3. As per point one, save that the empath craves sexual interaction and knows it can only be achieved outside of the relationship. They therefore seek out sexual encounters with other people but have no desire to leave the existing relationship. This individual’s narcissistic dirty streak has risen to the fore and governed the behaviour of this particular empath.

With regard to this third element it remains relatively rare that the empath will do this unilaterally because their traits of guilt, honesty, decency and compassion will fight against the desire to accommodate the narcissistic desire of infidelity. If the narcissistic trait is very strong, the empath may still seek out these encounters and have them with normal people, an empath in a similar position to their own or find a narcissist.

What happens more often than not in this third situation is that the empath spouse has been targeted by our kind.

An empath with no narcissistic streak of infidelity (or a very low one) will resist the sexual overtures of the narcissist. They may remain as a Non Intimate Secondary Source to the narcissist. It is highly unlikely they would be targeted to begin with in any event by the narcissist.

An empath with a narcissistic streak of infidelity, which is greater than very low, will succumb to the overtures of the narcissist and find themselves engaged in an affair, breaking their wedding vows, breaching the trust of their partner and becoming sucked in to the world of the narcissist. If the narcissistic streak of infidelity is very strong, the empath may even have sought out (unconsciously) the narcissist.

Combine the narcissistic streak of infidelity in the Dirty Empath and a narcissist and infidelity is a given. How this pans out very much depends on the desires and wants of the narcissist. Please see the latter part of The Married Target as to how we are drawn to those who are married and are thus susceptible to our overtures. We may want the empath to become our IPPS and thus they are designated the role of Candidate IPSS as we love bomb them and lure them away from their spouse using our range of manipulations in the way that is described in ‘The Married Target’. It may be the case that both Dirty Empath and narcissist are content with an arrangement whereby the Dirty Empath is a Shelf IPSS and sees the narcissist intermittently and is treated as a friend with benefits, side person or mistress. Both parties are content with this. The narcissist gains in accordance with The Prime Aims and the Dirty Empath scratches that itch for sex outside of the marriage (coupled with the excitement that accords with it) but keeps their own relationship intact.

Sometimes the Dirty Empath becomes the Dirty Little Secret and is content with that arrangement also.

Note however that whether the Dirty Empath is a Candidate IPSS, Shelf IPSS or Dirty Little Secret, this is always at the behest and control of the narcissist. The Dirty Empath may willingly embrace the dynamic (unaware of course that they are with a narcissist and what their role is) as it fulfils the desires of the narcissistic trait of infidelity.

The issue arises however when the Dirty Empath wants to remain in the role of Shelf IPSS or DLS but the narcissist wants the empath to become the IPPS. Battle is joined to pull the Dirty Empath in the direction the narcissist requires with all of the drama, triangulation and heartache that follows. The problem for the Dirty Empath is that having allowed themselves to be governed by the narcissistic streak of infidelity they have already trampled over their partner and the narcissist knows this. In the same way you cannot get a little bit pregnant, you cannot be a little bit unfaithful, you either are not or you are.

Where the Dirty Empath has hitherto enjoyed being the Shelf IPSS or DLS, keeping this activity secret from their partner and enjoying all the other benefits of the best of both worlds, it is the narcissist who ultimately calls the tune and if he or she wants that Dirty Empath in a different role, the narcissist will strive to make it happen. If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath. If the threat of release of this material does not persuade the Dirty Empath to submit to the whim of the narcissist, then it will be released. The hitherto painted white Dirty Empath will be painted black, they will be devalued prior to dis-engagement and their own existing relationship with spouse or partner will be the prime target of the narcissist for the purposes of causing its destruction and spreading misery. The need to punish the disobedient Dirty Empath and the significant fuel available (negative fuel from IPSS, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary cuckolded spouse, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary sources allied with said spouse and/or Dirty Empath, positive fuel from loyal secondary/tertiary sources to the narcissist) means that the chances of the Dirty Empath being ‘let off’ are virtually nil.

The Dirty Empath may find they can keep their own infidelity quiet for some time, remain as a DLS or Shelf IPSS and enjoy an elongated golden period with the narcissist, but they have no control over that. If it continues that way, this is purely down to the approach of the narcissist. There remains a risk that the narcissist will wish to change the dynamic and with that comes significant consequences for the playing away Dirty Empath, his or her spouse, partner and family.

Those who “give in” to their narcissistic trait (and this is usually because a narcissist has ‘sniffed out’ this Dirty Empath will eventually end up suffering.

This happens in the following circumstances :-

  1. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist wants to promote them to Candidate IPSS and then IPPS, but the DE does not want this as this will blow open their infidelity;
  2. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist decides to dis-engage against the will of the DE;
  3. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, but the narcissist does not want this to happen;
  4. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.

The Dirty Empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity who becomes ensnared by our kind is only heading for misery. They do not have the lack of remorse, lack of conscience or lack of guilt that allows us to drive ever forward. Instead they are left to rue the consequences of this narcissistic trait being intensified and exploited by our kind.

Further articles will follow concerning the various streaks of the Dirty Empath.

90 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath – Infidelity

  1. Q says:

    Hello HG,
    My recent psychological evaluation, after 2 years of once per week therapy is: subclinical NPD, BPD and ASPD comorbidity. My therapist has not decided yet my dominant between NPD/BPD or did not want to tell me, lots of practitioners do that to encurage the progress of the patient. The ASPD aspect is the least proeminent, we both agreed that. Old HPD diagnostic has been rulled out.
    How do you connect such a diagnostic in empathy cadres ??? I sort of recognized myself in the DE, but I could be wrong. Within therapy I discovered I have very limited empathy and no gasping of what love is. I thought I knew what love is but aparently, love is NOT what I have thought. But I did sacrifice myself for the sake of “love”. Sad, indeed. Every time I was engaged in infidelity I did it for the fuel, not for the sex itself and was not aware of it. Sex itself was /is Useless, in or out of marriage. Where do I belong???

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Use this and I will tell you

      1. Q says:

        Nah, I’m not paying. Nice try, through!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Quite alright. Wasn’t a try, it is the way you will get the answer from me.

  2. Candyce Marie Mathews Cox says:

    I believe I married to/separated from/cohabiting with until the lease is up in June/will definitely be divorcing a MRN. I know he already has his new supply ready and waiting in the wings. I have not committed adultery YET, but am scheduled to do so in the next 5 days when the kids leave for Spring Break to vacation elsewhere. It will literally be just me and narc boy for a week. He wants nothing to do with me sexually, of course, but am I to believe that, if he finds out that I have been “unfaithful”, (by man’s paper law because in God’s eyes, our marriage was over before the sun set on our “wedding” night), that I will be somehow punished? I know he’s a hypocrite, but would he really care if he’s already moved on to his new supply?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It seems as if the other appliance is not yet crowned the IPPS, your remain in that position and you are in devaluation. If you cheat on the narcissist, it will wound him.

      1. Lorelei says:

        Cheating wounds because of that whole piece of a partner being an extension of him/herself? Would the wounding be severe or moderate if you were cheated on HG? Just curious.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Cheating wounds as it threatens control in two respects

          1. General control over the appliance , and
          2. The risk that the appliance may escape which is particularly problematic.

          If I were cheated on, see above, however why they would ever do so would surely be a sign of utter madness.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            If you were cheated on would your malice would be unleashed on both parties I’m sure, but would the worst of it be directed at the appliance for their treachery, or the person with whom they cheated for having the audacity to try to control/steal your appliance? Equal measure?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Both parties would have malice applied against them, although the IPPS would come off worse. Mind you, it is a little bit like being choosing between being boiled alive or having a rusty meat hook slowly driven into your cranium.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Goodness. I’m not sure which is best! I’m glad I cheated on that stupid fuck. Glorious over it. I’d do it again.

          4. Lorelei says:

            And I’m more happy that both of my affairs came over and met him! I hated him and he deserved it. It amused me.

          5. K says:

            Being boiled alive or having a rusty meat hook driven through your cranium, hmmmm….sounds like something out of Fifty True Tales of Terror by John Canning. Great book!

          6. Lorelei says:

            I’ll take the meat hook.

          7. theletterafterj says:

            Hahaha…definitely the meat hook.

          8. Lorelei says:

            K—I do not think a meat hook is that bad. The boiling thing is really awful. I actually want crab legs today and I used to buy and boil them. I don’t have any but I’m warming up bacon wrapped sea scallops (From the local Kroger—I think it sounds fancier than it is!) and a veggie delight.

          9. theletterafterj says:

            Sounds delish! I read about Genghis Khan (I think it was he) boiling men alive as a wedding gift for his bride on their wedding day. Isn’t that festive.

          10. Lorelei says:

            Delicious is the Wendy’s cheeseburger I’m preparing to devour. I woke up starving to death.

          11. Lorelei says:

            Good question NA.

          12. Lorelei says:

            No no HG—during a sustained devaluation a dirty empath will indeed cheat. It’s not madness. It’s just the effect of diminished empathic traits and misery. It can happen. You withhold affection and treat someone poorly and see what can happen. My ex is very attractive and the sex was satisfactory. It’s not about how attractive someone is or bright.

          13. BlackCoffee says:

            This is interesting to me. As a DE, it is what I do. Often, if I was angry about being shelved/black/devalued past my breaking point, I lashed out by cheating.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Its sounds your intention is to make him aware and that can be a dangerous game. You need to be careful as he will be wounded and you can never be sure his response. You are better off to ignore him and look forward to being free from him. Besides, if you are using this person just to get back at the narcissist that is unfair to them and they could end up in danger as well. No need to involve others. Just GOSO.

      1. Candyce Marie Mathews Cox says:

        Thank you NarcAngel for your response. H G has informed me that I’m most likely still IPPS. So, crap. My intention is not/will never be revenge. I’m a newbie to all of this as I just learned of him being MRN in January after 1 phone conversation he had with my therapist. She confirmed my suspicion. I just thought that since we are divorcing, he wouldn’t care. I will admit that yes, I want to cheat (according to man’s paper law). 18 times in 8.5 years has destroyed my confidence. Also, ZERO oral sex for me for 10 years! The gentleman I met is 11 years younger and knows ALL bout my situation. He’s been kind and patient and we’ve both been upfront about not wanting a relationship. I suspect he’ll be happy to wait 2 more months until my narc moves out. Thank you for advice!

  3. Vnarcobsessed says:

    If you are a dirty empath and a sipss as well, how can you determine if his wife is in a respite period or he’s got another woman? Every time I text, he answers immediately, but he is not pushing to see me nor initiating contact this week. He is, to my best ability to discern, a mmrn. I wondered if a new woman were around, he would be too busy to respond and carry on a text conversation for an hour. Thoughts? And thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You would be placed on the shelf and either not hear and/or be given comfort crumbs – you appear to be receiving comfort crumbs at present.

  4. Presque Vu says:


    “Truth is, she can look, she can obsess, she can do whatever she wants – she has no obligation to you what so ever.”

    ‘Actually under the law where we live, people cannot do whatever they want to others. People have an obligation to behave like civil humans toward others.’

    The same law as here then, your husband is famous yes? She had an affair, she’s still hanging around like a bad smell despite him ignoring her. Let her be in the background lurking – it’s her that looks the fool. Your husband because of his fame – will have groupie types, stalker weirdo types – it’s all happened in public places too. YOU CANNOT control her because you despise her. She has no obligation to behave civil in the same way as you think she should. She might hate your guts and do it for kicks – as you said she doesn’t go near your home. That’s the main thing!

    “If you think it worthy – go to the Police and make a complaint.”

    ‘As if she’s important enough to go to the police over.’

    Is that because you know the police won’t do anything because what she is doing is not a criminal offence? If she is contacting him in any way, or shows up to your home – they could do something. But she isn’t. She’s going to his gigs, and other social events, in a public forum and mixes in the same circles… sure she gawps at him, staring at you both, lingers and is just a bloody annoyance.

    She has no obligation to you.

    ‘as if she’s important enough to go to the police over’
    I stand by my thought processes above.

    I’m thankful you are here, I can put what I’ve learned into practice.

    I bid you a good day.

  5. BetterwoNarc says:

    Would a narcissist ever reveal an affair with an DLS IPSS to his own spouse, knowing she would tell the DLS IPSS’s husband? This would be in response to the DLS IPSS ending the relationship.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Potentially, more information about the context would enable me to provide greater accuracy and if this relates to a personal situation BetterwoNarc, do organise a consultation.

      1. BetterwoNarc says:

        Will do. I wonder if it’s just a coincidence that his wife found out the same exact day I ended it. Then she went ahead and told my husband before I even had the chance to come clean.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Causing someone else pain to lessen theirs. Well that’s always helpful now isn’t it?

          1. BetterwoNarc says:

            I had no intention of ever contacting the narc, or his wife again until she found my hubs on Facebook and messaged him. The next day she took my picture and profile link off of LinkedIn and made it my affair partner’s headlibe and profile picture. Hopefully no one noticed before she took it down. So not only was I dealing w/the heartbreak of ending an intense relationship and the heartbreak I caused my husband, but I also had to worry about public humiliation. I can understand she was acting from hurt and emotional too. Then she would randomly send me messages via Instagram to instigate me. I did end up having a somewhat civil convo with her through text a few months back. I’m guessing the narc HATED that. Not that she believed the things I told her. But I only told her what she asked. I’m so glad that is all over now, but I worry about her future being married to an emotional abuser, cheater, compulsive liar, etc.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Sorry you had to navigate all that and glad that part is over for you. Better to focus now on your own future though because hers is really none of your concern and not within your span of control.

          3. BetterwoNarc says:

            Very true NarcAngel. Trying my best to focus on myself and truly let go.

          4. Joanne says:

            Wow, that is some story 🙁 How are things with you and your husband now? My narc was single, and I had thought that it’d be safer if he also had “something to lose.” This way, I’d feel less threatened about him trying to smear me to my husband. But I didn’t consider the possibilities of him having a partner – and that partner finding out – and the type of drama that could cause all around. I guess there are many lessons to be learned in all of this.

          5. BetterwoNarc says:

            My husband has been great. He sees the affair as a big wake up call and an opportunity for us to improve our relationship. I’m very fortunate he is so forgiving. He makes me realize what true love really is. It’s loving and supporting someone when they are at their lowest point. It could have gone the other way.

          6. WriteItOut says:

            BetterwoNarc, that’s how I felt when I discovered my husband’s affair. I’m so glad to hear about someone else who’s marriage has survived an affair and come out better than it was before. I forgave my husband immediately when he ended his affair. I can’t imagine how we’d have recovered without forgiveness.

  6. WriteItOut says:

    “If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath.”

    So much evidence…she actually was trying to out their affair for months before I found out. I think because my husband is a public person that many people take pictures of, that this didn’t alarm him. I didn’t alarm me, but it did catch my notice on more than one occasion. I’m just not a jealous person by nature and also, a part of me felt she was just another overzealous fan.

    When he ended the affair, though…wow. The pictures, the texts, the threats to send me all of his texts to her. I know she wanted me to read those texts, but I’m not a masochist. I know how stupid people are in affairs and I had the phone records showing how ridiculously often they were talking and texting. In a fit of fury she texted me a naked photo of him, twice in the same day. She then texted it to him with the message “Tell K to post THIS!”. I didn’t open the text she sent me with the picture because I knew it was something meant to hurt me. She was in a rage because I’d posted our wedding photo. The whole time she was posting her pics of them together, after he ended the affair, I was posting pictures of us. Fire with fire, bitch.

    It drove her mad. I don’t know who she thought I was before she started fucking with me, probably some mousy wife that she could bring to tears with her campaign to destroy my marriage. Of course whatever she thought she knew about me was partially due to things my husband told her while they were involved.

    This massive campaign to both smear my husband (she insisted to me that he was bisexual, I told her that nobody cares about that nonsense and took away any power she thought that would have over either of us) and destroy our marriage played out exactly as you describe, HG. Thanks for the interesting post.

    1. BetterwoNarc says:

      I’m sorry you had to experience that. With all due respect, just a thought to ponder. Why are you directing all of your anger towards this woman when it is your husband who broke your marital vows and betrayed you? She is clearly in the wrong, but she is hurting too. She owes you nothing, and HE owes you everything. I personally don’t think what she did was narcissistic, but of course, I don’t know the details. I do know that people react poorly when emotions are high.

      1. WriteItOut says:

        I suppose since you haven’t been dealing with her for the three years since the affair ended, you are having a hard time recognizing the classic behavior of a narcissist that I described in my post. I responded to HG’s post saying yes, that is exactly what happened so where’s the confusion? Do you question HG’s description of a narcisstic’s behavior, or just my saying “Yes, that’s how it unfolded with me?”. Just trying to clarify where your confusion is originating.

        I’m perfectly aware of my husband’s responsibility in this situation and in our marriage, but that is not the topic of this post. She absolutely does owe me something…my privacy and my right to live free of harassment from her. Hurting or not, when you decide to engage in a relationship with a married person there are rules. One of them is that when it’s over, it’s over and you don’t make every attempt to destroy the person’s marriage or their spouse. You don’t spend years invading the woman’s privacy who did NOTHING to you…she’s a narcissist.

        Even with everything she did to try to destroy me, I did reach out to her at one point (before I knew I was really dealing with a malignant narcissist) to say I’m sorry you’re hurting. I thought it might help to show some compassion, and being an empath I did feel compassion for someone having a relationship terminated abruptly without further contact. People do react poorly when emotions are high, but that attempt at compassion only got me more crazy vitriol and threats to send me all his texts, etc. I feel no more compassion for her because people who try to destroy others deserve every bit of pain they feel. It’s the only thing that might change them, unless they’re a narcissist. Then they just feel rage at being thwarted and they try to mine that for fuel.

        I hope that clarifies anything you misunderstood. I’ve found that people have a hard time not giving me advice about the affair and my husband when I post on this topic. It’s amusing. My experience with a malignant narcissist happened in the context of an affair with my husband, but I’m always talking about the narcissism because that’s what HG writes about. There is no anger in my posts, memoir is a dish best served cold.

        1. BetterwoNarc says:

          I always get curious when women lash out at their husband’s affair partner instead of their husband. At first, she just sounded more like a woman scourned than a narcissist just based upon your comment. I understand now that this is an ongoing battle you are having with her and it really sucks. Also, the quote you took from the post was related to how the DE reacts when the narcissist decides the role changes against the DE’s wishes.

          1. WriteItOut says:

            Well that’s the confusion then. I’m not lashing out at anyone. I’m sharing my experience with a particularly vicious narcissist, which is kind of unique since I wasn’t involved with her, my husband was. She only took aim at me after he ended the affair and went no contact. This is how affairs generally end, though I know that a lot of people keep in contact with their affair partners on the down low and she expected that as well. I wouldn’t still be married if that had been the case, she could have had him and I’d have moved on because unlike a narcissist, I don’t want anyone who doesn’t want me.

            I think that people are always surprised by people who choose to stay together after an affair. I think a lot of people think that it’s foolish, they could never do it, whatever their reasons. I personally think there are many ways to betray someone, and an affair is just one. We all betray each other at some point, in some way…we’re just human. The real issue is are you a forgiving person if changes are made, or are you a person who will torment yourself endlessly over a betrayal? I don’t torment myself, and despite having to see this person often I really don’t care what she does or thinks or what provocations she tries. She’s irrelevant to my life and our relationship, which probably drives her crazy.

          2. BetterwoNarc says:

            I hear you. Affairs and the aftermath of them are very complicated. Each couple has to make their own decision if a relationship should end after an affair. Sometimes people mess up and an affair is an epic bad decision. I don’t know this woman, so I apologize for questioning whether or not she was a narcissist. My point was just a woman scoured may react very poorly due to emotional thinking. Sometimes women put more responsibility and anger on a mistress than on their own husband. I’m not saying that is the case with you.

          3. WriteItOut says:

            I put all of the responsibility for having an affair on my husband. He was a hot mess during that time but that’s not an excuse. He also accepts all responsibility for getting involved with her.

            I don’t buy this woman scorned bullshit. I dated married men in the past, their wives had nothing to do with me. When those relationships ended, no matter how I felt (and one ended in such a devastating way and very abruptly), I didn’t turn my feelings on the wife. I didn’t send her pictures or texts or post photos of her husband, I didn’t call her on the phone to vent or out the affair. Go ahead and have affairs if you want to, but have the integrity and self-awareness to leave other people out of it when you get hurt, and the decency to recognize that whatever happened, you were messing around where you had no business so let it go. But I digress.

            The thing that neither I nor my husband are responsible for, and that nobody deserves, is the smearing, the public humiliation, the private texts to me, the pictures and posts to social media where we have hundreds of mutual friends. That bitch is a malignant narcissist and her fondest wish, even now, is that our marriage and our lives fall apart. It’s coming up on three years since he ended it and went no contact. It was two years before she took all the pictures and posts down from social media, but she still has one out there on a public website. Who does that? She still comes around and everyone can see her fixating on my husband, so I have imagined nothing. If I were someone who lashes out, I’d have taken her out professionally just from all the ammunition she’s given me with her behavior.

            She has a history of pursuing married men and going ballistic when things end. One of my friends said to me about a month ago, as we watched her watching my husband, “She’s not going to stop until she’s dead or you are”. I have no doubt it’s true.

            So…hope that gives you a clearer understanding of my perspective. I’m a student of psychology and on one hand, the behavior fascinates me because it’s so self-sabotaging and extreme. I’m a woman who grew up with a malignant narc father, and now I’ve experienced a female narc who set her sights on my husband and my life focusing all that malignant energy directly at me for years on end. I’m a writer, and talking about this stuff is also very interesting to me. I’m way beyond having an emotional reaction to her or being upset at seeing her. I’m just here commenting on the insanity of narcissism and relating my own experiences, as are you.

          4. K says:

            You are absolutely correct. Your experience is unique because you were victimized indirectly and it is another facet of the dynamic that needs to be shared. I don’t think you are lashing out and, even if you were, I wouldn’t blame you one bit. And you are right, infidelity comes in many forms.

    2. Renarde says:

      Yes. I’m also curious on the lashing out at the female as well.

      This was clearly your husbands’ agency. If it wasnt her, it would have been someone else. Surely?

      Posting the wedding photograph could be perceived as being provocative I think? Especially considering you must at that time have been reeling from the shock that he betrayed you? Isnt it at precisely this time the betrayed spouse destroys pictures?

      Apologies in advance if I have my facts wrong. Those that are truly betrayed always have my empathy.

      1. WriteItOut says:

        I’m really curious how it’s perceived as lashing out at anyone at all, posting on this blog she knows nothing about? Because lashing out would have to be aimed at her so I think you’re both confused.

        I’ll respond to the rest of this later. It’s late here.

        1. Renarde says:

          Look forward to your thoughts there Write.
          I think ‘lashing out’ was too strong a term on reflection. The woman in question may well be a narc. If so then she’ll be (presumably unconsiously) following HG’s sphere theory model and HEC. So…have you gone NC to ensure none of these communications get through?

          1. WriteItOut says:

            Sorry for the delay in getting back to this, I went on vacation. It was so much fun!

            We’ve been NC forever. She just continues to come around all the time, but she doesn’t get so much as a “fuck you” from either of us.

            So at the time that I posted our wedding photo, she had already posted photos of the two of them, had been texting me, threatening to send me all of his texts to her…I have no doubt she expected me to lose my mind from all of these public and private provocations after he ended things with her. She gravely underestimated me.

            Since she was blocked on social media, and supposedly had me blocked, how could she see anything I was posting? She obviously had her lieutenants watching my page. So when I posted our wedding photo, was I being provocative? A lot of people knew about the affair and knew that it was over and my husband and I were working things out. My husband is a rather public figure, so that’s just how it was and what I had to deal with. I reinserted myself into this public atmosphere by just showing up in a way I hadn’t for years, and was completely transparent about what was up with us. There really isn’t any point in pretending when everyone knows what happened and the crazy bitch is still hanging around.

            It was probably a month to six weeks after NC that I posted the wedding photo. I wasn’t reeling anymore, and because I didn’t want a divorce I really didn’t go through that whole wanting to destroy things routine. There is so much more to this story than my husband having an affair. All the years before, and then these years (almost 3 now) after.

          2. Renarde says:

            With the greatest of respect, WriteItOut, I think you’re missing my point.

            We’ve been NC forever. She just continues to come around all the time, but she doesn’t get so much as a “fuck you” from either of us.

            How can you possibly know ‘she’s been around’ if you are in a NC? Isn’t that the very point?

            Is she physically going around to your house? Or being strangely at the same place as yourself? In which case then surely the bar has been lowered and the HEC triggered. But why? How?
            If others are informing you then surely, they are the minions/lieutenants and also should be under a NC or asked to politely desist that they give you information on the OW.

            It’s all rather baffling, really!

          3. NarcAngel says:

            From what I have previously read, WIO’s husband is a performer and the narc shows up to the places he plays and makes herself prominent. Not sure about the social media angle.

          4. Renarde says:

            Thanks NA for that info; I had missed it and that makes much more sense.

          5. WriteItOut says:

            If she came round our house I’d have filed a restraining order. She’s not so stupid that she’ll throw her career away.

            My husband performs in public. He also holds a high-profile position in an organization that we and many of our mutual friends support and belong to. The only way for me to avoid her is to never attend my husband’s performances and to discard our social life. That’s not a reasonable expectation, for me to never be out with my husband.

            So I know she’s around because she comes to my husband’s performances. She stares at him all night long, in a way that’s noticed and commented on by our friends. She can’t keep her eyes off me either. I’ve never dealt with such a strange and malevolent person before but she certainly makes a fool of herself with this behavior that continues almost three years past the end of any contact from my husband.

            So I have no choice but to know because there she is.

          6. Renarde says:

            Yeah, actually you do? Stalking is still stalking even if it is in a public arena.

            Non-molestation order would also work here I think? No?

          7. WriteItOut says:

            Simply showing up where we are and staring is not considered stalking in legal terms. There’s seriously nothing to be done but ignore her stupidity. She’s not going to actually DO anything…pretty sure she’s afraid of me, LOL.

          8. K says:

            It reminds me of a fuel or malice obsession and WriteItOut and her husband would have to “disappear” for a while so she would be forced to rely on other appliances and, maybe then, she would leave them alone.

          9. Renarde says:

            Yes, put me in mind of that too. I was talking to a woman the other day who had one that had been going on for nearly five years. Boggled me why the bar was being lowered and the HEC met (She had changed jobs (!), phone etcs.) The only thing I could conclude that she was permanently lodged in sphere 6. (HG – I did send her your way BTW)

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          11. WriteItOut says:

            K, I think you’re right in your assessment.

            He can’t disappear. I could disappear but why would I? My husband would hate it if I never went to any of his shows again. I go to few enough of them, I have my own career and interests and we have a child.

            There are circumstances where you can’t avoid seeing someone. A normal person would not still be doing what she’s doing. The only thing we can do is never speak to her or acknowledge her presence. I really don’t believe she’ll ever stop…she’s a narcissist.

          12. K says:

            It isn’t feasible to disappear so just keep reading and posting. Maybe she will find a better or newer source and leave you and your husband alone eventually.

      2. Presque Vu says:

        Renarde….. WIO wrote..

        ‘We’ve been NC forever. She just continues to come around all the time, but she doesn’t get so much as a “fuck you” from either of us’

        …however also wrote…

        ‘It’s coming up on three years since he ended it and went no contact.’

        …but a few comments back wrote…

        ‘I don’t torment myself, and despite having to see this person often I really don’t care what she does or thinks or what provocations she tries.’

        …and continued on…

        ‘The whole time she was posting her pics of them together, after he ended the affair, I was posting pictures of us. Fire with fire, bitch’

        …and on…

        ‘She’s irrelevant to my life and our relationship, which probably drives her crazy.’

        …and on…

        ‘She still comes around and everyone can see her fixating on my husband, so I have imagined nothing.
        (I’m afraid you cannot control other people, only yourself.)

        ‘The thing that neither I nor my husband are responsible for, and that nobody deserves, is the smearing, the public humiliation, the private texts to me, the pictures and posts to social media where we have hundreds of mutual friends.’
        (you need to consult with HG on being smeared and going full on NC)


        ‘The real issue is are you a forgiving person if changes are made, or are you a person who will torment yourself endlessly over a betrayal? ‘

        …I think YOU can’t let go. The betrayal because this woman is still around you somehow… that nagging feeling of what’s previously gone on between them does not disappear from your minds eye…

        Truth is, she can look, she can obsess, she can do whatever she wants – she has no obligation to you what so ever. If you think it worthy – go to the Police and make a complaint.


        ‘I’ve found that people have a hard time not giving me advice about the affair and my husband when I post on this topic. It’s amusing.’

        Quite bluntly, what are you doing here then?
        It’s amusing that people take the time to help you, offer advice and to someone they don’t know… I find that insulting.

        YOU my dear, are the Narc.

        1. WriteItOut says:

          LOL…are you mad about something, PV? Nobody is taking the time to “help” me, nor have I asked for “help”. Most often they start out with their preconceptions about my situation and go from there. That’s a natural human tendency and as long as people are willing to accept the clarifications I freely offer when asked, it doesn’t bother me.

          Quite bluntly, why do you care why I’m here? I’m here to talk about my experiences with narcissists, and I assume others are as well. Why are you here? I can’t imagine why you’d be irritated with me, but neither do I care.

          It’s ok if you think I’m a narcissist. I wouldn’t be commenting on this site if I were sensitive about what people think of me.

        2. WriteItOut says:

          “…I think YOU can’t let go. The betrayal because this woman is still around you somehow… that nagging feeling of what’s previously gone on between them does not disappear from your minds eye…”

          This isn’t something I even care about. I don’t own my husband’s body, and I don’t obsess over him having been with someone else. How I feel about the fact that she had sex with my husband: bitch, he’s not fucking you anymore, is he? And he never will again. I could have told you to stay away from his fine ass.

          “Truth is, she can look, she can obsess, she can do whatever she wants – she has no obligation to you what so ever.”

          Actually under the law where we live, people cannot do whatever they want to others. People have an obligation to behave like civil humans toward others.

          “If you think it worthy – go to the Police and make a complaint.”

          As if she’s important enough to go to the police over.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I visited your blog and read your account of how you felt initially. I only saw the first 3 days. Do you plan to continue writing further about it?

          2. WriteItOut says:


  7. Morning sun says:

    I was definitely targeted, but ended up willingly in an adulterous relationship with the narc. By that time I had invested so much into improving my primary relationship without much effect that I was just exhausted and depleted. Enter the narc and his skillful button-pushing, and I was a goner.

    I learned a lot about myself and being human that way. And I learned from the narc how to embrace my non-empathic traits and stop rejecting that part of me. The relationship has also propelled me into starting to explore and work on my (repressed) traumas.

    Worth it all the way.

    1. Elise Marie says:

      I have a similar story.

    2. Scoutjr says:

      What was worth it Morning Sun? Being involved with the narc? How have you been working on your repressed traumas? I identify so much with this post it’s a bit scary!

  8. Lori says:

    I’m curious about number 2. Is this rare ? As you have mentioned that disengagement is rare with ipss

  9. kel says:

    Besides infidelity, what other strands dirty an empath?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Wait and see.

      1. K says:

        Excellent! Some of us empaths are filthy.

      2. Anm says:

        That should be your next poll. A kiss and tell. Let’s see what sin the average empath commits. Infidelity is not my thing, but I have a few “black streaks”, and I am sure others do too.

  10. Healing Victim says:

    The Super Nova could be the Narcissist worse nightmare. In the beginning the Narc. will feel he or she hit the jack pot. BUT because there is never any contentment of a settled soul of a Narc. because they really do not have one, they get restless. The Super Nova has a very pure gift of once they connect, they give of all of their selves of being so raw and real in giving. This is a gift. A very very sacred gift. Because the Narc. is so good at deception, the Super Nova thinks they found the one. So they are very vulnerable of giving and showing the Narc. the trust they have for them. We are warriors who have been broken many times, but some how wear are scares with honor. We don’t show them to many. So once we find out the true nature of the one we give our goodness and heart too, and they turned out to be evil. WE are a mess at first, but then we pick ourselves up and do the work we must do to fight them. Warn others, expose them, maybe go to court so on. BUT we have to be ready for battle. Narcs do NOT change. They will always need fuel. What I did was mess with his fuel supply with some of the other women I found that he did this too. I found true evil, as Narc. are NOT from God. They come from the shadows of evil.

  11. Sarah says:

    This piece of writing is not just a narrative, it is GOSPEL. This should be a TED talk and is the single most influential piece of literature on infidelity I have ever read. It is powerful beyond measure. It is insightful beyond compare.
    Who could forget how this piece inspired both bravery and understanding as it did with dear Quasi the last time it was posted? HG, you have a superior power of seeing and giving us the answers before we even ask the questions! Please elaborate on this strand and consider writing a book on the subject?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Sarah, I have made a note with regard to your request.

      1. Sarah says:

        Splendid and thank you HG. I shall wait patiently for the possibility of learning more.

    2. Scoutjr says:

      Totally agree. A book would be welcomed!

  12. Scoutjr says:

    This was difficult to read because it seems like my exact situation.

  13. Mercy says:

    HG could you clarify something for me? What is the difference between the shelf IPSS and the IPSS? Are all IPSS put on the shelf at some point?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You can be a Candidate IPSS where you are not on the shelf because you are being love-bombed.

      1. Mercy says:

        Thank you

  14. Ninaestralla says:

    I am undone by this. An arrow aimed well. Your revelations will either heal me or further destroy whatever remains of my self regard.

    1. lisk says:


      If you are here, you have self-regard. You are no longer interested in being considered an appliance.

      The revelations are painful, but the pain is surmountable. The pain eventually dissipates as you get stronger.

  15. Sweetest Perfection says:


  16. Elise Marie says:

    Very helpful post.

  17. mommypino says:

    This gave me so much clarification in terms of my situation the first time I have read it. I’m so thankful that I found this before I made a wrong decision. Such a brilliant article.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you are welcome.

  18. Joanne says:

    Perfect timing for this. Instead of mentally willing my narc to pick me up off the shelf, I need the reminder of how badly it could blow up for me and my marriage…

  19. WW says:

    Well now that explains it. He thought I was a DE but I insisted I couldn’t remain a mistress. In other words I unknowingly begged to be IPPS – yet he warned there would be “consequences”. In hindsight he tried to tell me everything. Everything. I never caught on.

    1. Joanne says:

      WW, how did you end up getting out?

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