Tell Me What You Are Thinking

 

 

TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE THINKING

You may remember Sophie who was one of my ex-girlfriends. She was a happy-go-lucky kind of person and loved dashing from person to person wishing them well. She was like a machine spewing out good wishes, pleasantries and compliments.

“You look really well,you have lost weight.”

“That skirt really suits you.”

“I heard you recently got married, you must be really happy. That’s really wonderful.”

“Hey great news on that new job. I am really pleased for you.”

“You look so content, I am really happy for you.”

She was really, really good natured. Oh and she used really a lot. There was not a bad bone in Sophie’s body and she always saw the good side of everything. I was by turns fascinated by how she managed it and also hugely attracted by her capacity to find victory from the jaws of defeat.

“He’s grumpy because he is tired, he works very hard you know.”

“I guess he didn’t have time to speak to me today, he has really huge responsibilities. He really has.”

“I don’t mind that he forgot my birthday, I am just really pleased to be with him, that’s a good enough present for me.”

“I haven’t heard from him so I guess he is out with his friends. It is really good to spend time with other people now and again, it keeps things really fresh.”

She just skipped along merrily handing out kindness and warmth as if that was all she was programmed to do. I reached this conclusion because behind the permanent smile, the twinkling eyes and elated expression she wore there really was not a lot else. She had no interest in politics, current affairs, sport, history, literature and so on. She would listen patiently if I railed against the latest proposals concerning immigration nodding and smiling and when I asked her what she thought she would say,

“Oh all of that is for people really clever. It’s not for me.”

She was never dismissive in the sense of pouring scorn on it just because she was not interested or she did not understand. No, she just had no interest because she felt it was beyond her, not something she had to be concerned about. She was concerned with just one thing ; skipping around like some modern day fairy sprinkling goodness everywhere. I do think she lacked much in the way of her own opinions and thoughts because she usually deflected any attempt to get her to critique something with a self-effacing comment like the one above. She never seemed to be caught in a moment of contemplation. She never seemed to pause for thought. She would just ask what I thought. She did this repeatedly. She was always concerned to know what I was thinking about.

“What’s on your mind?”

“Penny for your thoughts?”

“What are you thinking?”

“Where is your mind today?”

“What’s going on upstairs?”

Repeatedly throughout the day, as  we sat watching television, after we had made love, during dinner, going for a walk, when I was shaving and so on. Always wanting to know what I was thinking. So I told her. From the mundane (“This shaving gel is not as good as the last lot I bought”) through to the loving (“I was just thinking how wonderful it is being with you”) to the scathing (“I was just wondering why on earth I am with such an empty-headed woman as you”). That was all she wanted to know. What was I thinking? On and on she would go, asking and asking and no matter what I said, be it compliment or nasty comment or ephemera she would smile and give a satisfied nod.

All of this made her very attractive to someone like me at the outset as she was a real high volume fuel generator but once that wore thin, it was rather difficult to denigrate her so she would react the way that I wanted. She put me in mind of that toy the Weeble. The catchphrase surrounding the Weeble was “Weebles wobble but they don’t fall down.”Sophie was like that. I would be horrible to her and she maintained a smile (although I thought or at least hoped she was dying inside) and made an excuse and found a rationale for my unpleasantness. Insults just seemed to bounce off her. Smashing plates and ornaments caused her to stand and watch with a slightly perplexed look on her face before she tidied the pieces away. She did not cry or show fear. I would sit and flirt with other women online and comment to Sophie about how attractive they were. She would look over and agree with my comments and go on to compliment how white their teeth were or how she liked their hairstyle. If I wandered in during the middle of the morning she would just ask how my night had gone. I am sure she could smell other women on me but she did not seem to react. It was as if she was wrapped in this coating of pleasantness that was impervious to any nastiness thrown at her. She would either respond with a soothing comment, make an excuse for what I had said or done or just not react and get on with her day. I used to wonder if she had me worked out and this was her way of negating me. How had she done this? Who had put her on to this strategy?

One weekend she was staying with me at my house and I returned earlier than she expected. She had not heard me come in (it is often said that I manage to move around with a strange ability to be very quiet, popping up without warning) and I could hear her talking in the bedroom. I crept closer and through the slightly ajar door I realised she was talking to herself.

“Must not think, do not think Sophie. Just keep doing. Smile and shine, shine and smile. Keep going forward. Don’t think about it. We know what happens when you think about it. Bad things happen but we don’t do bad things do we? No. Only good things. I don’t do the thinking, he does. I need to know what he is thinking and then I can make him happy, it is only fair, he deserves it doesn’t he? Don’t think Sophie, must not do that, come on, you can do this, you always do. Do it don’t daydream.”

I stole away and then realised what I needed to do to break her.

After that, whenever she asked me what was I thinking about, I would respond by saying “Nothing.” She would look puzzled and ask again. I would repeat my answer. She then would look slightly anxious. I would turn to her and ask

“What are youthinking about”

She would try and deflect my question by asking me again or changing the subject but now I knew how to get to her. I would never tell her what I was thinking and instead pursue her to tell me what was going on inside that sugary head of hers. It worked. She became upset, angry, frustrated and anxious so I kept it going and going and going. I have no idea why it troubled her so much. Her eyes filled with panic when I kept saying nothing and then she seemed to shrink, her light dimming as I asked her about what she was really thinking. She could not cope with it. I did not work out what it was about thinking that caused her so much consternation and I did not care, all that mattered to me was being able to provoke her into giving me that emotional reaction. It seemed that too much thinking on her part was a dangerous thing indeed. The important thing was that I had worked out how to provoke the provision of negative fuel. Makes you think doesn’t it?

 

192 thoughts on “Tell Me What You Are Thinking

  1. amanda SNapchat says:

    What I like about this story is that it showcases to you how a narc operates. They want your negative fuel. Don’t give it to them. You win if you don’t react.

  2. Mona says:

    I am suprised, how different empathic people judge about the behaviour of Sophie. It is not easy to understand, because all say that they are empathic people.

    I agree with Marina.

    Sophie gave up herself to be a part of HG. (Marina described it better). And I am surprised, that Marina did not get more “likes” or that anyone took notice of her comment.

    I understand that the behaviour of Sophie is more than problematic in a relationship. If someone has no own opinion it gets very boring after a while. And I believe that even normal people will be annoyed by that behaviour and want to cause a reaction to find out what she actually thinks. Therefore I see your behaviour, HG, to a certain degree as normal too. At first it is a good feeling, if someone agrees in everything, but then…,
    Sure, her behaviour is not normal, I agree. Her words in the bedroom show a broken individual. Someone must have punished her in the past for own thinking so brutally, that she gave up her own personality.
    Whatever it was, it was brutal.
    And now, if a normal or empathic individual would have observed that scene, it would – at least – ask her to go to therapy with compassionate words.. I do not think that a normal person would continue the relationship unless there is a therapy and even then- the relationship stumbles or it is broken. We all need some dynamic friction in a relationship- to get some new thoughts.
    The narcissistic part on it – you, HG, abused the situation to get more fuel.
    I do not think, that a normal person would have chosen her for a life-relationship. I am sorry to say that, but she is determined to have bad relationships unless she works on herself. It is a real tragedy.

    1. K says:

      Mona
      I agree with you and I “liked” Marina’s comment. Sophie was a very compliant and obliging appliance to HG and everyone around her and he needed to figure out how to access that pool of negative fuel and, eventually, he did of course.

    2. nunya biz says:

      Mona, I understand what you are saying. I feel for Sophie and her need and desire to be loving and loved. I have actually done similar to her. I have unconscious cravings for a dysfunctional relationship in which I can love someone fully and they accept that with grace and love in return with the problem that my view of how to do that isn’t realistic. It is becoming more realistic though and I have changed a lot over the last few years to understanding how to RECEIVE love. HG has an article on here somewhere that describes how empaths can be uncomfortable when receiving in certain areas. I forget which one.

      My view of Sophie’s behavior in this description is of what I should NOT do in order to get what I want and what to look out for in someone else. I agree that someone should insist a person get some therapy, say for codependency or what have you, and try to help the person. But you do also say that it wouldn’t be good to stay in a relationship with her. So who would stay in a relationship with her? An unhealthy person. It is a catch 22 because people don’t generally see what they are doing wrong to end up in a messed up relationship with the wrong person, and then end up trying to get that person to FIX THEM for themselves. The main point of the article, the really unpleasant truth, is that we can’t unfortunately rely on the fucked up family we came from or our new fucked up partner to help us get past these things, recommend therapy, tell you how to be better, we have to recognize it and do the work on our own (with the bullshit tools we were given), but if those people were able to do that we probably wouldn’t need it to begin with. Yes, it is a catch 22. It sucks. Especially for the empath, if you ask me. They bear the brunt of it.

      If you look at the entire dynamic between the two of them they are both doing things wrong that feed into each other. THIS IS HOW WE ATTRACT NARCISSISTS. They will not stop finding people who play into this dynamic. Not ever. I get it, it can be really thrilling. I still don’t know how to fully shift everything.

      1. nunya biz says:

        On that topic, I do think that a very assertive, thoughtful, dominant type of empathic man is the ideal for some for a reason, because good intentions are a pretty great substance to work with in a relationship and I think balance can be found. I also think strong empathic men exist, a narcissist will likely complain otherwise because they’re too busy stealing everything. But still, we have to adjust our expectations, mark out the red flags and define good boundaries to get the best relationships.

    3. amanda SNapchat says:

      I feel sophie is a doormat.
      I don’t feel too bad about sophie because I think it’s good she was challenged to think. I see that as a good thing.

      btw I don;t think we all need dynamic friction in a relationship. I like boring, peaceful relationships.

  3. mommypino says:

    I think more than HG provoking Sophie for negative fuel, I feel more sad that Sophie would tell herself and condition herself not to think because bad things happen when she thinks. It is the saddest part for me. That is when a person has completely lost his/her freedom, when their minds are not allowed freedom to think. And the fact that she was doing this to herself is really tragic. I hope that she’s able to figure out what was causing her to do this and that she is now more empowered in her life.

    1. windstorm says:

      MommyPino
      I totally agree. It tore at me when I read about her telling herself not to think. That was so… can’t pick the right word – pathetic, tragic, heartbreaking. I hope she’s in a better place now, too. But my gut tells me she’s not.

      1. amanda SNapchat says:

        i don;t feel sorry for her, she needs to learn. it is important to learn to think. this might have helped her start thinking.

  4. Leanne says:

    I see this thread as a good example of how empaths and narcissists view things differently. And react differently.

    Even though the character “Sophie”was a bit annoying, I did really feel badly and instinctively wanted to protect her.. especially when it became obvious she was struggling

    I see the comments made here as “reactional”

    IMHO

    1. K says:

      Leanne
      I felt bad for Sophie and I wanted to protect her, too.

    2. amanda SNapchat says:

      I consider myself an empath. But I do not feel bad about Sophie. Because I believe this experience was something very important she needed to live to get her to start thinking. It was a point where she was asked to think. How great is that? I think that was a gift.

  5. Angie says:

    I was never raped, I said it because I wanted to gauge his emotion reaction, his emotional response, or lack thereof, to see if he cared, got my answer,,he tried to use that as a lethal weapon against me, and he ending up looking dumb. whatever information we all know, that we feed to them, confiding in them, they will use against you…I saw his hand motion,,,elaborating on what I said, I found that quite unusual and odd,,,I knew right then and there,,,somebody wants a response, red flag alert, not too much, but I had it in my subconscious,,,that was he was trying to do was provoke an emotional reaction and emotional response to quote un quote feed the beast, Pathetic and Lame. to react in an emotional fashion and you feel good? interesting creatures.

    1. Leanne says:

      Angie,

      Sorry to butt in..

      You faked being raped? To gage your narc’s reaction?

      Not cool. As someone that has been raped, it’s gross. Just fyi…

      1. Caroline R says:

        Leanne
        My feeling too.
        Repulsive behaviour.
        So sorry to hear you’ve had a similar experience to me.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      I hope I am misunderstanding your comment because lying about rape is pathetic and lame and brings dishonor to all women. There are many “tests” one can do without using that.

      1. nunya biz says:

        Makes it harder to believe others. Many people can sense lying even if unsure.

  6. Lori says:

    I also find it quite interesting that a bunch of “empaths” have little empathy for someone who has a disorder that causes them to behave like this. It’s not a choice for him. It’s how he survives

    1. K says:

      Lori
      I agree with you. I have empathy for HG and other narcissists because it isn’t their fault and they are compelled to behave a certain way and I understand that completely.

      However, I have no compassion for my family narcs, ULN or MMRN.

      1. Sasha says:

        I have no empathy for narcissists. I have empathy towards what they once were when they were children (if ever good) as opposed to what they became.

  7. Lori says:

    Oh brother this whole jealousy thing. Why do people continually try to project what they think he does or doesn’t feel. HE HAS A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. If he thinks he saw jealousy then to him he did. Good grief why on earth would you try to convince him otherwise?

  8. Lori says:

    You know it is interesting to me to see people get angry with the things HG has done. I don’t feel that at all really when I read about Sophie.

    I think people really believe it’s a choice for him to behave this way. He may even think it’s a choice, it’s a disorder that he has little control over without serious mental health intervention. He did not choose this for himself. This is where I have trouble reconciling my feelings toward my own. Yes I feel anger at what he did, but I also realize that he is only doing what he’s been programmed to do. He knows nothing else. How can I expect anything else from someone who knows nothing else. It’s like getting pissed odd at the blind man cause he can’t see

    1. nunya biz says:

      I was more thinking “getting pissed at an end table for not giving a fuck” but I thought it sounded too insulting of HG’s intelligence, so I only mean it in terms of ability. I do think his point is very well made though about not engaging back pointlessly with counter-control mechanisms that can only bring harm to yourself. Truly genius.

      1. Lori says:

        I just don’t get why people try impose their thoughts about what he thinks or feels. He’s told us. I don’t know why people think he secretly feels another way. He doesn’t or at least it’s not conscious to him. If he thinks he observed jealousy then he did fro his perspective. Someone telling him different isn’t Going to change that

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Lori
          I think some people find it easier to focus on his behaviour than their own depending on the stage they’re in, or perhaps depending on their interest in narcissism generally (not here for personal focus), but they should remember as you say, that he is giving his (or that of the narcissist generally) perspective and stop trying to align it with empathic thinking. I still don’t understand how they don’t get that. It’s frustrating for me and I’m not even a narcissist.

      2. nunya biz says:

        I am wary whenever I notice someone imposing their thoughts over mine. I can feel it when it happens and I don’t react well.

      3. Lori says:

        Narc Angel

        It has taken me awhile to grasp this perspective thing as simple of a concept as it is, it’s a bit hard to grasp when I feel so strongly about my perspective but what I have realized is this disorder causes people to see the world and interaction through an entirely different lense than I do and that it is not a conscious choice for him. It comes to him like breathing

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Okay. I’ll probably get lambasted over this but it’s the honest truth.

      When I first read the article about Sophie (long ago) I was as disgusted by Sophie’s behaviour as I was HG’s and I’m sure I said as much. To me it demonstrated that she was as fake as he was. That she was attempting to become someone other than she was in order just to keep him despite the fact that she knew it was not healthy or in her best interest. I reasoned that he had a disorder and although I did not condone his behaviour (STILL DON’T to be clear), I saw it as natural to his disorder to obtain the fuel from her in any way that he could. She however was not considered disordered, so it appeared to me to be manipulative on her part to be consciously planning to behave and appear in a way that would allow her to remain in the relationship for whatever her gain was. My thought was that they seemed two sides of the same coin. I realized that it would be accepted by most that she was doing it for love, but I questioned: how do we know that she did not do it for the residual benefits herself? Financial, social status, etc. I did not understand (and still don’t) all the intricacies of co-dependency. I saw her as a possible manipulative gold digger/stepford wife. I mean what separates her from a gold digger/stepford wife just from reading that story? Is it fact that she was doing it out of love, or is that our projection because we have determined her to be a victim? Are we always pure of heart and intention? Do we not participate in narcissistic behaviours such as cheating, stalking, etc? Of course it plays to HG’s disorder and perceived power to see her as a victim, but I wondered – was she really?

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I felt awful to say this but now I don’t feel that bad: Sophie seemed like a pain in the ass to me. I guess the difference is that I would not make her suffer to get negative fuel, rather, would just break up with her.

      2. nunya biz says:

        I completely agree, NA. And for me the real issue is that if a person subconsciously engages in this way they are certainly doomed to repeated relationships with NPD partners. My assumption would be that she was raised by parents who communicated to her that her needs should be put aside for others, so it feels natural to her.
        Also I think residual benefits are nice, haha. I probably didn’t seek them out ENOUGH : P.
        But eh, I have reorganized my priorities at this point and true love is what I seek. If it exists. Not sure.

        I agree on the narcissistic behaviors and I said something about it on this article. I am trying to adapt my N behaviors to be useful to me and reduce those that cause damage. It’s actually fairly straightforward in some ways to do so once we get understanding from HG, but I have not been able to fully figure if I can reject amazing sex chemistry or other very enticing things when it comes down to it. That’s alright, I don’t need to know right now. But there are so many allegories throughout history that explain not to try to grab something from greed and HG gives a whole new subtle understanding to that concept, I thought this piece was exceptional.

      3. windstorm says:

        NarcAngel
        I understand your take on Sophie. Her description irritated me as well. I’ll admit, I never considered her manipulative or a gold digger, but I certainly thought she was disordered. Especially the part where he listened at the door while she muttered to herself not to think. I remember thinking that she was not really happy at all, she was just putting on an over-the-top front of happiness while she stuffed all her real feelings.

      4. Kel says:

        I thought that flurry thread was actually over the Olympic skater story, wasn’t it? I cringe to bring it up.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Kel

          No. That was Alex the gymnast, but you think I’ve only been in one “flurry”? Did you just meet me?

      5. Mona says:

        NarcAngel, it is pretty interesting, that you saw her as possible manipulative gold digger/stepford wife. How did you come to that interpretation? (You won`t be lambasted, whatever your answer might be)

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Hi Mona
          I did not decide in the end that she actually was, only that it was a possibility. It was just that as I was reading it, I was taking all things into consideration and she appeared to be manipulating. It struck me that we may be projecting as empaths that she was acting out of love and not using her own manipulations and planning to have her own needs met (whatever they may be). That once again, we as readers/empaths may be seeing what we want to see instead of what might really be there when you look at it from all angles. And isn’t seeing what is not there a huge part of the problem on both sides?

          1. windstorm says:

            NarcAngel
            “seeing what is not there” is a huge problem in all human interactions- often even when we are the only human interacting with the non-human world!
            😄. The capacity for self-delusion is truly vast!

          2. Leanne says:

            Narc Angel,

            This: “And isn’t seeing what is not there a huge part of the problem on both sides?”

            Also, NOT seeing, what really IS there.

            That’s always been a huge problem for me. I make excuses for everyone.

      6. kel says:

        Ha Ha NA, You do really have a talent for flurries! I think you’ve softened the last few months. You’re so much more careful now!!

      7. Getting There says:

        NA, I have to admit that I have read many of your comments with respect for how you are for yourself and with others. I almost asked you the other day if you were always this respectful of you.
        I do find your perspective on Sophie interesting and eye opening as I read this article differently. I felt bad for her. Maybe I am projecting, I don’t know. I don’t think she did it for love or to be manipulative. It seemed to me that her unhappiness and thoughts and feelings don’t matter to her. What matters most is how the other person is feeling and what they want/don’t want. I personally understand that as I keep some thoughts in my head in order to either not hurt another (which I have done and know I can do significantly); and with recognition that I don’t know what is going on in someone’s life that may be driving the action/words. I do let words out at times and then find myself, most of the time, apologizing even if the other person didn’t feel one is necessary. I assumed Sophie is like that, but to a much different level.
        Was Sophie the same person who was in the Daddy article? If so, I don’t know if her daddy taught her that it is selfish/horrible to put anything above the main man (in this case HG). I don’t know what she was taught about her role when growing up if she is not that same person; what her support system looked like if she even had one; or if she even had a definition of herself to recognize what is self preservation versus being selfish and self centered. I have wondered, when reading this, what she meant by the bad things happening – what are they? I don’t know if I know any gold diggers but I would assume they wouldn’t give themselves a talking to; maybe they do and I am wrong.
        For me, who I was in my 20s and 30s is a little different than I am now. I would not have thought to the extent she did, but I allowed a lot more than I do now. I am stronger as I age and experience more. Maybe she will be stronger for herself now.
        I do like reading these different thoughts though as it helps me understand from different views. Thank you for being willing to make that statement to start the discussion.

      8. nunya biz says:

        NA, like you say I do see it as manipulative, so in theory if I met her I would be watching out for what she’s doing in general. I think this type of behavior is more likely CoD than N, but she’s obviously confused so who knows. And yeah, definitely here to analyze and learn, so fair points.

      9. nunya biz says:

        I’ve decided that my Prime Aims and Residual Benefits are all sex.
        : P

      10. Anm says:

        NA,
        Interesting assesment. She could have been a Gold Digger. However, I do think that Codependents are disordered. I have a sister, who is just like this Sophie. She is not a Gold Digger, and if anything, Narcissist easily Gold Dig her. I will get a phone call from her occasionally really late at night, and she is almost in a Psychosis state asking me questions about why the Narcissist she is married to doesn’t do what she expects, when she does everything right, agrees with everything he says, and “loves him so hard”. She is very codependent, and just as controlling as a narcissist. I love her to death, and she also has a slim chance of changing like a narcissist does, because she is deeply programed to think and function a certain way.

      11. Lori says:

        Imposing and projecting your own feelings or perspective on someone else is a very codependent behavior. It’s doesn’t mean you are codependent but it is in fact a codependent behavior. Just sayin.

        I often read articles from narcissism gurus about how miserable the narcissist is on the inside but I seriously question that. It may very well be true that their behaviors and lack of empathy stem from that but the foundation of Narcissism is that they buried these feelings deeply and invented another self so they would not be conscious t To them. I think these feelings are there in the form of the “the creature “ and while a greater maybe aware of this “creature” most are not. So I hate to inform everyone, but if you think the Narc is really drowning in self loathing you are likely incorrect

      12. Jenna says:

        Hi NA and all,

        I agree with alot of your thinking NA. Though I don’t see Sophie as a golddigger, I lately think that empaths and normals have the same three prime aims as narcs do (other than the negative fuel), and this includes residual benefits as you stated.

        “I realized that it would be accepted by most that she was doing it for love, but I questioned: how do we know that she did not do it for the residual benefits herself?” I think that ‘love’ is similar to ‘loving gestures’ which is a type of fuel (reference: book ‘Fuel’). We need fuel as much as narcs do! Where it differs is we do not require the frequency as narcs do, but we do require the potency (true love), and perhaps the frequency (addicted to love, ‘love sex addiction’, being addicted to him).

        And we all want our partner to help out financially, and not be the sole financial resource. So residual benefits do factor in.

        What about character traits? Sophie perhaps liked hg due to his intelligence, motivation, drive, good looks, intensity. Why do we like certain types of men? Maybe we like and admire these traits and hope they rub off on us. Just some thoughts.

        I am rethinking the whole ‘fuel’ concept and the prime aims, and realizing it is not just for narcs.
        The prime aims are pretty universal. Yet psychologists do not describe our nature as such. A narcissist who describes himself as empty had the insight to discover this. Mind blowing!

      13. Lori says:

        Narc Angel

        With respect to Sophie manipulating, I’m quite certain that she was a Codependent . I think I asked HG once and he confirmed it. Yes, she was very likely manipulating to get her needs met and to control her environment and get him to behave in a certain predictable manner. That is exactly what Codependency is and for me this is a prime example. Would every Codependent use this particular tactic ? Of course not. They may use one of many depending on their personality and the dynamic. Does the Codependent plot all of this out? No, not really. It’s instinctive just like it is for a Narc. An aware Codependent such as myself may recognize they are doing it, but an unsware Codependent likely would not.

    3. Jasmine says:

      But have you read his books? He does some truly despicable things

      And yes…. hard to reconcile it all. He’s really compartmentalized his life

      1. Mona says:

        Thank you very much, NarcAngel, for your answer.
        I fully agree to your last two sentences.
        We see what we want to see from our own special perspective. And that is only one of the big problems.

  9. Saskia says:

    “it was rather difficult to denigrate her so she would react the way that I wanted.”

    HG

    Was this something about Sophie and her subservient, accommodating nature that surprised you? Something you did not expect to happen when you decided to make her your IPPS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It was anomalous behaviour, yes.

      1. amanda SNapchat says:

        so maybe a good strategy if dealing with narcs is to not react at all, right?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The bets strategy is no contact.

          1. Jenna says:

            Welcome back HG! Missed you!

  10. Kiki says:

    Happy New Year HG , and a kiss for you .

  11. Marina says:

    Sophie was trying to negate herself in order to get along with you. She was actually attempting to turn herself into your appliance!

  12. Mona says:

    K, I do not agree with you.
    Of course he stated facts. Of course, there should be no personal insult by SF2. Of course she should not project her feelings…. But it is only human.
    It is a very emotional topic and it is normal to react emotionally.

    And when she reacted emotionally he used facts as a weapon to put her down. Very effective to demonstrate superiority, masked by logic facts.
    Sounds crazy, but it is not. It is only a very effective weapon, often used by narcissistic people.

    I do not believe, that it was his first aim to teach her not to be so emotional, his first aim was to put her down. That is only my opinion.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Wrong. The aim is always to correct inaccuracy. There is no need for me to put anybody down here, if they interpret my correction of their inaccuracy as putting them down, they are incorrect and creating an issue where there is none.

      Given the repeated errors you make when addressing my observations, might I then, based on this evidence, conclude that your primary aim when addressing me is not to be accurate but rather to automatically look to oppose what I write and to attack me? Or do I, as I have done so far, conclude that you are expressing a view albeit an incorrect one, based on mistake and misunderstanding as opposed to be confrontational.

      1. Mona says:

        HG, yes and no. You asked me a question, which is not easily to be answered. I want to be fair right now.

        Sometimes I misunderstand or react emotionally (felt arrogance) towards things I really do not like.

        Sometimes I want to provoke to see how you react. I attack you intentionally. This has at least two reasons/causes:

        One reason is to find out, how patient you are. It is directed to you.

        I do not like how you think about people. I do not like arrogance. I do not like this disorder. I do not think, it is an illness. To be that way is (in parts) a cognitive decision. Therefore I have a lack of understanding for you or to feel guilt/ remorse, when I attack you.
        I feel guilty, when I attack someone who is an empathic individual or when I would attack someone, who is weaker than me. .

        The other reason is, that I get rid of the dark emotions, that I have to keep under control all day long, because I am still in daily contact with a narc, which I cannot avoid. This is a good place to get rid of them. And you are my lightning rod.

        I am a beast sometimes.

        I have to appreciate your work. I am fair enough to see how you educate people about your kind and help them to get out of the situation. Although I do not appreciate, why it is done, I appreciate that it is done.

        There is still not enough information about this topic. And it is not easy to understand for someone who is completely different to your kind.

        But in some ways I am not so completely different to your kind. I do not like to see that. All I know I am very different in comparison to most of the people who are at your blog.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for answering and I appreciate your honesty in doing so.

          By the way, it is only arrogance when there’s nothing to back it up – I deliver. Thought I would reciprocate with some honesty too.

      2. amanda SNapchat says:

        Mona: How do you know you are different than others on this site? Do you feel you are a narc or you feel you are just smarter than people here who u may view as inferior? Or what do you mean?

        I feel it’s a waste of time to attack random narcs online to test them. WHat do you gain? I think it can be better to use your energy to learn more about the topic and plan your escape from your narc.
        What do you think? I mean seriously who cares what type of people are on this site, who cares if the narcs here have patience or not. Focus on what matters.

        I feel I am a life coach sometimes…. haha

      3. Lori says:

        Mona

        You couldn’t be more wrong on the it’s a cognitive decision. It absolutely is not. The only cognitive decision is the selection of victim and tools of manipulation used against them. The disorder is absolutely not a cognitive decision. It’s woven into their personality from childhood as means of protection from extreme pain.

        Does a blind man who has 2 eyeballs cognitively choose not to see ?

        You cannot understand this because you have a different perspective

    2. K says:

      Mona
      HG doesn’t use logic as a weapon; he uses it to correct inaccuracy and I haven’t seen any evidence of HG putting any one down.

      If you take a step back and remove the emotion then you will get a clearer picture and recognize that he is only trying to help the reader understand how her emotional thinking clouds her logic.

      It really is that simple.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Correct.

      2. SuperXena says:

        K,
        Just a short observation now that we are taking on the task of skilling our logical thinking . Quoting:
        “K
        JANUARY 1, 2019 AT 19:00
        Mona
        HG was just stating facts in a logical fashion; it is as simple as that.”

        That jealousy was perceived by HG as the the cause of the insult does not make that perception a fact. It is his perception. We do not really know what motivated the insult from the person it came from so I do not consider that statement as a fact, it is just a perception.

        Otherwise, all the remaining statements in HG’s answer I do consider them as being factual .
        Best wishes and more mojos to you!

        1. K says:

          SX
          2SF has been here for quite a while and I was a little surprised by the insult directed at HG and the contradictory nature of her comment:

          ‘HG, reading this I came to the conclusion that you are a major asshole!”

          Then underneath that she wrote:
          (I have started this new year practising logical thinking)

          I agree; we do not know the motivation for the insult and we can only rely on the content of the comments to make a logical assessment on the originator’s intent.

          Just to be clear, I do not judge any of the parties involved and I understand emotional thinking and don’t hold it against anyone.

          1. SuperXena says:

            Hello K,
            This is an interesting debate. I personally do not believe that you can make a logical assessment based on the content of her comments without falling into a logical fallacy yourself because:
            1. To begin with, the content of her comments IS a logical fallacy in itself: Ad Hominem Fallacy:” Ad hominem is Latin for “against the man.” Instead of advancing good sound reasoning, ad hominems replace logical argumentation with attack-language unrelated to the truth of the matter.”
            2. This would then lead you to an invalid conclusion being another logical fallacy either a **Causal Fallacy or *Hasty Generalisation.

            *”Hasty Generalization
            Hasty generalizations are general statements without sufficient evidence to support them. They are general claims too hastily made, hence they commit some sort of illicit assumption, stereotyping, unwarranted conclusion, overstatement, or exaggeration.”
            **”Causal Fallacy:
            One causal fallacy is the False Cause or non causa pro causa (“not the-cause for a cause”) fallacy, which is when you conclude about a cause without enough evidence to do so. “

            Interesting exchange of ideas. Best way of learning. I believe we do not have the elements required to get any further with this.

            P.D. I am not taking any position either against or pro anyone.I am just assimilating ,assessing and learning.

          2. K says:

            SX
            It is a very interesting debate and I find the discourse lively and educational and I always try to come from a position of neutrality and understanding. As always, I welcome all your thoughts and your thorough research and I am very impressed by your assiduousness. Thank you!

          3. SuperXena says:

            Ditto K. Thank you!

      3. SuperXena says:

        Just adding:
        *Otherwise, all the remaining statements in HG’s answer I do consider them as being factual : that is to say that it is the emotional thinking overriding the logic preventing to see the whole picture and getting the maximum of benefits of it(knowledge).

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Mona
      I understand the following:

      2SF’s reaction to the article.
      HG’s right to respond to it.
      That you have the right to your opinion that his intent was not to teach, but to put her down, and to voice it.

      What I do not understand:

      That you can state the case that he demonstrated superiority masked by logic as fact (you said: “Sounds crazy, but it is not”), but then assert that when he uses facts they are weapons. Why would facts be considered weapons in his argument but not yours?

      1. Mona says:

        NarcAngel,
        he knows people very well.
        Therefore he knew it was only projection, that made SF2 insult him (my interpretation) . And he knows that his texts provoke a lot of emotions. He could have said, that he does understand her feelings, but insults are not allowed or do not help and he is not the one who insulted her . Instead of that he used cold logic to show her that she was wrong. Maybe he thought he acted appropriate and probably it is his friendliest way to give a polite answer to someone who insulted him but it sounds (in my ears) very arrogant (my opinion). And arrogance is shown, when someone feels superior. Therefore I had the feeling he used at this point logic as a weapon.
        And as far as he does not like inaccuracies, I do not like arrogance.
        Arrogance is something I reject. If someone is born with intelligence , it is nothing that allows to be arrogant. Intelligence is a gift, nothing else.
        But I really forgot at that moment (because of the felt arrogance,my trigger) that he is not able to react more compassionate. I expected too much.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Mona
          Thank you for explaining your thought process.

  13. Tom says:

    Are female narcissists more susceptible to physical violence if they pick the wrong target?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No.

      1. Mona says:

        HG, one point for you. Of course you do not expect emotion-free angels. I was wrong at that point. I should have known better.
        Of course you need strong emotions to feel yourself and it is hard work to cause very strong emotions in other people. It is your fuel you are addicted to.

        Maybe I am wrong again, but why do you react so emotional to my comment?

        You only focused on that one point, which was wrong.
        Therefore I suppose, that everything else was right. Logical thinking, emotion-free.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I acknowledge your admission.

          Mine was not an emotional response. I corrected you, that is all and stated the facts.

          If I had responded in an emotional way it would have looked like this
          “Are you fucking kidding me? That’s a ridiculous thing to write. I cannot believe you have misunderstood what I have written. When will you ever understand correctly what I am telling you? I do not expect emotion free angels. I know you have emotion, spades of it, sometimes I wonder if you actually read what I write? I get fed up of explaining things over and over….” That is an example of an emotional response and not one you will ever read from me.

          1. MB says:

            😳

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. We may never READ an emotional message like that from HG, but I think the message was received loud and clear.

          3. Lou says:

            Indeed.

          4. MB says:

            I certainly got the message NA! Scared the piss outta me.

          5. K says:

            NA
            Ha ha ha…to be fair, sometimes I have wondered if an individual has actually read what HG wrote. A good example is the straw man argument on a Very Royal Narcissist.

          6. windstorm says:

            NarcAngel
            Alright, help me out here, please.

            1. I understand that HG was not giving an emotional response
            2. I understand that he was trying to help educate a reader.
            3. Apparently he believes that she insulted him out of jealousy of his ability to get his fuel needs met and that wasn’t just a joke.

            Is this how you understand this exchange or am I totally out in left field somewhere?

            Thank you for you help to the senility-impaired.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Windstorm
            I can only say what I saw and give opinion on the rest.

            I saw 2SF give an emotional response to the article.
            My opinion was that she was affected by it, but also that she may have been joking/provoking a bit since she also stated she was starting off the year with logic (which could either mean she was serious about him being an asshole, or using it in a joking (to her) manner). Without going back to check- I believe she did mention subsequent (and honestly) that it was a bit of provoking.

            I saw that HG responded to what he considered an insult (because he actually used that word, and because he then demonstrated that she could have stated her position (in his opinion) in a more constructive manner).
            My opinion is that he expects attacks/insults from those who fly by, crap all over, then leave, and also from those who he uses for demonstration purposes, but that he expects more constructive comment/debate from his regular readers of which 2SF is one. I AM NOT slamming 2SF. She is entitled to say what she likes how she likes, it’s just my opinion that she happened to be the one delivering a comment that he took as insult at the time, and that it was not personal to 2SF. It could have been any one of us. I have been thinking lately that he is moderating a lot of our comments that benefit us but really don’t challenge him, stimulate him, or draw him into meaningful debate/discussion about himself or narcissism. It is a difficult situation because his time is at a premium, a lot of matters warrant consultation, and there are books forthcoming that will cover a lot of what we would discuss. Let me be clear: HE IS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT ANY OF THIS. These are just my thoughts. I am guilty of having him moderate a lot of my nonsense.

            The jealousy comment I am reluctant to address because only he knew in that moment what he meant (and perhaps he would not use that word again in hindsight) but here goes: I thought perhaps he was thinking he accepts for the most part, but gets sick of, being attacked for getting his needs met in whatever way he deems necessary (and being honest about it for our benefit and in a way that he realizes does not put him in a good light) while he moderates comment after comment about how we should have our needs met and in the way we want, and not (likely due to the 5 rules) lash out at us and call us needy, pathetic, or assholes (from the narcissistic point of view) when he feels like it. That we could be jealous (again his perspective) that we are bound by our emotions in not getting our needs met, so we lash out. That it must be taxing and he has great control, but that he is human after all.

            I could be wrong about it all, but you asked.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Pretty accurate.

          9. windstorm says:

            Thank you very much, NarcAngel, for your explanation. I can lay this bone aside now and chew on something else.

      2. Lori says:

        Honestly I gotta give him credit for not being “ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ?” Everyday. With some of the ridiculous crap I read here. People that want to “educate” him on his own disorder who come here like crackheads for information then want to challenge him on it. I find myself thinking if you know so much and you know what he thinks and feels then why are you here.

        I would imagine it’s exhausting repeating the shit over and over …

      3. lisk says:

        windstorm, I know you didn’t ask for my take, but I’d like to take a stab at this:

        Basically, 2SF claimed to have used logical thinking to come to the conclusion that HG is an “asshole.”

        HG is simply calling her out on the fact that 2SF instead demonstrated emotional thinking (with the primary emotion being jealousy in reaction to HG’s capability of getting his needs met) by using the derogatory term.

        In other words, 2SF’s thinking would have led to a more clinical conclusion had she used logic over emotion.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct.

        2. windstorm says:

          Lisk
          Thank you for responding.

        3. windstorm says:

          Lisk
          It was just the motivation he attributed to her that threw me.

      4. Jasmine says:

        Oo

        K.. that is a HG bookmark for sure!

      5. 2SF says:

        Windstorm, you got that all right I think.
        I thought it was a joke at first, honestly, it made me laugh. But then I realized narcissists always think people are jealous of them.

        Well he was wrong about that. For the rest his comment made sense. Yes, it was an emotional reaction and not logical thinking at all.
        I didn’t see it as putting me down, like Mona suggested.
        He’s a sweetheart really. Like really really 😉

      6. Jenna says:

        HG,

        The example of the emotional response you wrote a) reinforced to me how patient you are with us on the blog b) reminded me that you have feelings, loads of them. I know you do not feel happiness, but you do get irritated, annoyed, frustrated (the negative feelings).

        And when you are in a good mood on the blog it is close to what we would describe as happiness, but as you have stated in the past, for you ‘happiness’ equates more to a sense of power. Fair enough.

        I am trying to get into the mind of a narc and understand the feelings your kind feel. Thank you for the example you provided. When I read it, it was the first time I read an answer by you using inflection in my mind, and it reminded me that you are not so different from us in many ways.

        But in many other ways, you are very different from us, specifically your need to extract negative fuel which I hope to be able to conceptualize soon too, as I have now finally conceptualized the concept of positive fuel and the prime aims (from my perspective).

  14. Chihuahuamum says:

    Poor sophie. I do get a kick that you couldnt figure her out for a time and its too bad she didnt keep on and not react to any of the manipulations. I think grey rock does this and drives narcs crazy in a bad way lol
    When i see my narc trying to triangulate i grey rock and it irritates him. Ill flat out ignore when he brings up something thats meant to upset me and he repeats himself and i ignore. Eventually it gets awkward but he stops and acts distant. When he goes back to his good guy phase ill be more positive and pump fuel again. I never give him fuel for any of the npd bs. Gone are the days of long letters upset saying how hurt i was and why. Nope now i give silent treatments and disengage. I make it very unsatisfactory to do that to me and more appealing to treat me nice.

    1. MB says:

      Same Chihuahuamum! One of my favorite Dr Phil-isms. “You teach people how to treat you.” I’m a married shelf IPSS too. Since finding HG, there’s no more emotion laden pleas for answers or outpouring of my heart of how badly he’s hurt me yada yada. If I enjoy what he’s doing/saying he gets yummy positive fuel. If he wants negative, he’s gotta get it elsewhere cause HG broke this appliance!

    2. Tom says:

      You think your so smart. I did this for 8 years and married and had kids with my ex Narc.

      Wait until the ugly final discard then youll see who has the power.

      1. lisk says:

        Your experience just goes to show HG is right about GOSO.

        If ya can’t beat ‘em, leave ‘em.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Tom
        No one is saying they are smarter. They are speaking from a different position and experience – that of an IPSS and not as Primary source as you were. They also have power now that they know what they are dealing with, and are finding their way with using it until they are ready to disengage all together.
        Question: If they had not discarded you, would you still be there?

      3. lisk says:

        NA,

        Yours is a good question for any of us who have been discarded.

        Frankly, I can empathize with Tom’s “smart” question/comment, which was less about MB and more about his own experience. It seems to come from a place of deep pain in terms of the realization that he had no power to be effective in his 8-year relationship with his narc, no matter what power play he tried.

        And, really, whatever type of appliance you are in your relationship with a narc, the narc has the ultimate power, unless you GOSO.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Lisk
          Yes, I recognized that’s where Tom’s comment was likely coming from, but wondered if they still did not see at the discard or saw but was still trying to make it work. I don’t agree that the narc has all the power. We have power. That is afterall why they want us. We just dont recognize it or use it. If we choose to stay and allow them to disengage I don’t see that as the narc having power. We are just not exercising ours for whatever reason we tell ourselves. But we have it.

      4. lisk says:

        Yes, our power is to GOSO.

      5. amanda SNapchat says:

        very true. good advice. better to run. what happened to you tom? I wanted to do this too. Just give them positive fuel. they escalte things to get recreations. I think this is what happened between mia farrow and woody allen. mia just gave positive fuel so woody allen escalted to her daughter. what do u think>

    3. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi tom…i think you might of misunderstood my post. Im in no way claiming to be “smarter”. Smart would be to leave and cut my loses. No im just saying ive modified how i am in conjunction to my knowledge of npd and its more a coping mechanism. I realise reacting and pouring my heart out is rewarding the narc for their bad behaviour and tactics, as well as equipping them with more future ammunition. Im choosing to be more grey rock when he turns on his mechanisms. No, smarter is leaving. Im in no way saying ive “trained” or “outsmarted” the narc bc i realise that is not possible, not fully.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi lori….actually ive found with my narc it works to some degree bc he wants fuel and im not giving him it when hes a douchebag to me i put him on ignore and ive disengaged for a time. When hes good to me ive given him good positive fuel. Im not in any way shape or form saying this is the way to go im just saying ive found a “hack” in the system thats helped me cope and has had results. That being said you cant predict from one moment to the next what these sorts will do and every narc is different.
        The problem that does arise is when things get too content on my part and he gets bored thats when issues arise bc narcissists constantly need to be distracted from their core issues.

    4. Lori says:

      But you can’t manipulate them into treating you nice. They will simply hunt for a better appliance. The discard eventually comes or in The case is shelf a long time on the shelf

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Correct.

      2. Lori says:

        Look at me HG I’m starting to get this shit right lol

  15. SuperXena says:

    This meme/image matches more accurately ( than the former ones)the contents of the post being its impact more intense:
    the visual connection of the naivety and goodness of the target depicted as the toy , the cruelness of the perpetrator toying with her while visualising how she is desperately struggling to keep her balance as the toy does every time someone hits her until her tipping point is reached…

    Cruel, very , very cruel ….but effective: the message went through.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you SX.

      1. SuperXena says:

        My pleasure HG.

  16. Honey Bee says:

    You rascal….

    Would have had a different ending though if she did not have a habit of talking to herself. Or asking you about what was going on in your head.

  17. Lou says:

    Ok, I am thinking that Sophie was the ultimate codependent and she always wanted to know what you were thinking in order to know how to “love” you, please you and adapt to you better. It is also a way to exert some control over her environment and to have something in which to concentrate her everyday life. She was the ultimate people pleaser.

    Now, HG, please would you be so kind and tell me what were you thinking when you chose this pic for this article? It is an honest question.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is linked to the article hence an obvious choice.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Oh a weeble wobble lol i do think sje cracked tho like humpty and was held together by flimsy glue poor girl 🙁

    2. K says:

      Lou
      That is one of the clues I used to figure out that HG was a Gen-Xer.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Of course he is.

        1. K says:

          Sweetest Perfection
          I read your Amazon review re: No Contact. I really liked it and voted “Helpful”.

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Hahaha, thank you K! I could have written more but seeing the same reviewer over and over may belittle HG’s credibility.

        1. K says:

          Sweetest Perfection
          The reviews can be a bit repetitive so I try to highlight something that hasn’t been mentioned in the previous ones. There are 108 reviews for No Contact, the majority are 5-stars and there is a lot of positive feedback so the book must be very good.

      3. Sweetest Perfection says:

        It saved my life. I was also lucky to read it before devaluation started so it saved me a lot of pain. I have also written a review for Black Hole and was gonna write one for Decipher…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for doing so.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Lou
      It’s a Weeble. A hideous one at that.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Weeble Lives Matter, NA !

        1. NarcAngel says:

          HG
          “Weeble lives matter”

          My first laugh of the new year goes to you.

    4. K says:

      P.S.
      I also use the term to pull up this article when I want to read it.

    5. kel says:

      Weebles Wobble But They Don’t Fall Down.

      1. Lou says:

        Oh, I get it now.
        Thanks K, Kel and NA.

    6. Chihuahuamum says:

      Humpty dumpty

  18. 2SF says:

    HG, reading this I came to the conclusion that you are a major asshole!

    (I have started this new year practising logical thinking)

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re just jealous because I obtain what I need and therefore you resort to firing off an insult. Logical thinking would say – “This is a useful example of manipulative behaviour and insight into how his kind think and behave. I do not like that behaviour, but recognise this is how he functions in order to survive and thrive. I am fortunate to have this information available to me so that I can avoid such an outcome for myself. I do not like his behaviour, but I am in a fortunate position to have access to understanding it, from a position of safety. I will use this knowledge well.”

      1. MB says:

        HG, the way you explained the logic is a fine synopsis of the reason why this place works and we are all here. Learning from a place of safety because you are gracious enough to share your experience.

        However, I don’t think it’s jealousy of you getting what you require that caused 2SF to fire off an insult. It is empathy for Sophie, something we all feel when reading this article. Our hearts go out to her because we know how we would feel in the same situation.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Fair observation, an amalgam of the two then.

          1. MB says:

            😘

        2. NarcAngel says:

          MB
          Very astute.

      2. kel says:

        “Jolly Good” Explanation!! Thanks for that logical thinking guide!! Very helpful.

      3. 2SF says:

        You know what I was thinking, so you didn’t have to come up with this polite story, because you perfectly well know that I am grateful for all the information you give. And I love you, because you are my replacement narc and I was actually upset with him. And sometimes with you as well, because it is all f*cked up.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I recognise your gratitude 2SF but I also wanted to assist you by pointing out how your reaction, whilst understandable is symptomatic of emotional thinking.

      4. 2SF says:

        Thanks MB you are the sweetest xx

        1. MB says:

          2SF, it’s easy to forget that HG learns from us too sometimes. 🙂

      5. 2SF says:

        HG,

        “is symptomatic of emotional thinking”.

        You think we can just switch from emotional thinking to logical thinking, because we now know what narcissism is about. I can’t, just like you can not switch of your narcissism, I can not switch of my empathy and with that my emotional thinking.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hence why I made the comment. I know of your fallibility in this regard (when I saw ‘your’ – I mean you and others of your kind) and I point this out to you so you strive to spot ET and keep it under control, so you abide by logic.

      6. 2SF says:

        🎵Abide with me, fast falls the eventide
        The darkness deepens Lord (Tudor), with me abide
        When other helpers fail and comforts flee
        Help of the helpless, oh, abide with me🎶

        🙂 🤗

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Altogether now….

      7. lisk says:

        HG, in many ways you offer CBT, but it’s far less dry and so much more interesting than anything else out there.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I can see the force in that observation.

      8. SuperXena says:

        “ …., an amalgam of the two then.”
        Interesting.
        So, do you still believe that empathy triggered both the feelings of sympathy AND jealousy?
        In such case, the negative feeling of jealousy is the one that causes an instinctive reaction of insulting?
        Feeling just sympathy would not necessarily trigger an insult?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The feeling of sympathy is going to be directed at the vcimd “I feel sorry for her” or “I hope she is okay”. The feeling of jealousy causes the reaction towards the perpetrator.

          1. SuperXena says:

            Yes, that is true. But the feeling of jealousy and sympathy do not go hand in hand . The presence of one does not necessarily imply the presence of the other.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Agreed and nor did I suggest that it did.

          3. MB says:

            Since I’ve already pushed my luck this morning on challenging, I will just say it is not jealousy I feel toward the perpetrator in stories such as these.

          4. windstorm says:

            MB
            Me, either. Totally shocked me that anyone might feel jealous when seeing someone hurt. Sounds like something a narc would feel, jealous of the power he had over the victim. Maybe I’m missing something.

          5. MB says:

            Let it go Windstorm. Like Elsa ❄️

          6. SuperXena says:

            Understood and agreed. I did not say you implied that. I wanted to point out that empathy is not just connected to negative feelings .

          7. windstorm says:

            HG
            “The feeling of jealousy causes the reaction towards the perpetrator.”

            I thought it was a joke when you called her jealous. I don’t see that at all. I saw her reaction as anger at the injustice and pain you made your victim suffer. Getting angry when we see abuse to another is very common and often results in insults to the perpetrator. Why on earth would she be jealous? Jealous of what?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            I explained the basis of that jealousy in the initial comment, WS.

          9. windstorm says:

            Thank you for replying, HG. I went back and read it again – guess I will read it another time! Or maybe someone else who understood you can explain it to me.

      9. Mona says:

        You made me laugh today, HG. Your answer to 2SF at 13:50 is such a good example for narcissistic emotional thinking. “Narcissists are jealous or think others are jealous.” (official definition of one of the aspects of narcissism) You felt back in your own emotional thinking.

        You thought, that she felt similar in one way like you. MB explained the feelings of 2SF very well. It had nothing to do with jealousy. No amalgam.

        She only projected her feelings that she has against her personal narc onto you. And her insult is an absolute normal reaction to abnormal behaviour. She only forgot for a moment that it is only a fictional text and not your behaviour at this moment today.

        Nevertheless you talk about your behaviour / experience therefore we know it is not only fiction. It was done in reality.

        And it is funny too, that you expect logical, emotion-free comments although you cause emotional thinking through such a provoking text.
        You really expect too much. Empathic people should be emotion-free angels.

        And even that is a quite good example of narcissistic emotional thinking.

        You really cannot hide, that you are a narcissist.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No – I do not expect them to be emotion free angels. It is NOT emotion, it is EMOTIONAL THINKING. Those are separate matters. I know empathic people have a lot of ET. There is no expectation as to what they should be. I explained what logical thinking would be as opposed to a response governed by ET – expectation was not part of the response. I expect empathic people to have ET, I explain they must recognise that and reduce it and look to logic – I do not EXPECT them to do it, it takes effort to achieve.

        2. K says:

          Mona
          HG was just stating facts in a logical fashion; it is as simple as that.

      10. nunya biz says:

        Wow, interesting conversation.
        Great observation, lisk! I had not consciously made that connection myself, but I have been associating my “treatment” here with my CBT group in some ways mentally. Incidentally my counselor IRL for that is masculine, logical, and handsome and I don’t hate it.
        (But *ahem* no comparison to HG I mean)

      11. nunya biz says:

        WS, my take:
        As empaths we forget that we engage in many narcissistic behaviors because we believe we are “right” or that our intentions are good so that makes the behavior not narcissistic. That’s not true, it is still narcissistic.
        Inflammatory comments are natural or understandable, but still a narcissistic manipulation. The girl in the story is being manipulative.
        Obviously I’m on her side because her intentions are moving to me, just trying to point out the objective fact.
        When HG says “jealous” I think he means that someone wants what they can’t have, as he said. My ability to recognize and practice this is transient, btw.

        1. windstorm says:

          Nunya biz
          Thank you for trying to explain.

      12. ifonlymommy says:

        Tud, you can do better than “You’re just jealous…”. Whenever I hear an adult say that I think of elementary school. Everyone trying to one up each other.

        Why is it so easy for you to insult yet not easy for you to take an insult? This always baffles me. There’s more power in not responding and moving on.

        Regardless of my comment on yours, your piece was quite interesting. I hope this once “happy girl” found her light after you were long gone. I feel like she did. Happiness is a way of being not something given by someone else. I assume you were just a blip…a momentary black cloud. I once described narc abuse as heavy goo that just hangs on you, over your shoulders like a weight, dark in color, and so very heavy. Once separated the goo slides off of your back you are free. Light. Vivacious. Energized. Alive.

      13. WhoCares says:

        HG,

        “This is a useful example of manipulative behaviour and insight into how his kind think and behave. I do not like that behaviour, but recognise this is how he functions in order to survive and thrive. I am fortunate to have this information available to me so that I can avoid such an outcome for myself. I do not like his behaviour, but I am in a fortunate position to have access to understanding it, from a position of safety. I will use this knowledge well.”

        The issue of jealousy aside, I’ve never read you being so straight up with how you expect – or desire – us to understand your intentions with your work – unless you’ve stated it similarly before and I’ve simply not seen it.

        I also may not like the example of how you manipulated Sophie (I recall my first time reading this article) and others…but this is how I rationalize it (yes I understand the dangers of rationalizing a narcissist’s behaviour – to those who will note this)…

        As, you’ve stated yourself, we may not like the medicine – or how it’s been procured – but many of us have been saved by it.

        And if I consider it for longer than a moment – I’m not excusing abusive behaviours – but comparing your methods to what we’ve learned about human nature from the field of psychology – they are both sources of learning that have used ‘reprehensible’ methods to obtain that learning – yet we revere the fruits of psychology…do people think about how ‘learned helplessness’ was studied in the past? Not many I’m guessing – but if they have ever paid a psychologist for services they have benefited from these insights regardless of the ethics surrounding how that learning was obtained.

        This is the way I look at it – we may not like HG’s behaviour – but how many could do what he does? How could he share such accurate insights if he were not the particular person (narcissist) that he is? He has perfected his ‘craft’ and now shares the insights of having done so in a way that benefits others. He could easily just go on excercising his craft without benefiting anyone and no one would be the wiser.

        I, for one, am certainly thankful for his work.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed and thank you.

          1. WhoCares says:

            You’re welcome.
            I am also very thankful for the peace of mind that allows me to articulate.

          2. WhoCares says:

            To articulate *that.

      14. nunya biz says:

        You’re welcome, WS. I know we didn’t get verification from HG, but that is the way I watch my own behavior, it helps me a great deal.
        When I mean “narcissistic” I mean as in selfish or pertaining to the ego or designed to get a particular response. Not as in “NPD”.
        And in that way it reminds me of how we must be narcissistic in order to survive, i.e. crying to get fed as an infant and on up to more complex behaviors.
        I have had some overwhelming ego-deflation experiences that have led me to contemplate those things and I am grateful for the process. I believe that a lot of these interactions are ego-based and the process of removing unhealthy attachments and addictions requires addressing that. Of course we need awareness of someone like HG’s point of view outside of ourselves in order to begin doing that.

        P.S. I was able to subscribe to all comments, thank you : )

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi 2SF…i couldnt help but laugh at your comment to HG. Not that i like seeing HG insulted but bc its obvious as day people with npd are assholes 🤣 npd is the epitome of assholeness bc its a personality disorder. Learning about why is quite another thing. Its easy to see the behaviour is awful but understanding the whys is what takes work.
      Anyone with npd will be an asshole!

      1. 2SF says:

        Chihuahuamum, no need to tell me, plenty of experience 🙂

        It was actually just a kind of provocation. I read the story here and I hate him for his actions, even though I can see Sophie’s behaviour could be irritating in the long run and I am fully aware of the reason why he tells these stories. I am very grateful for all the information. Still I liked to call him an asshole this morning. Because I felt like it after reading this article and because I was upset by the actions of the other narc, who started following a new girl he met abroad, while on holidays. She’s cute, pretty, everything. I checked her out and found an advert saying her father passed away at a very young age. And I thought ‘the g*dd*mn bastard knows exactly who to prey on.

        HG mentioning jealousy really is way off, I didn’t even take it serious.

  19. E. B. says:

    Information Society – What’s On Your Mind

    Happy New Year 2019 to everyone!

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Ohhh love this song!! 80s flashback 🤗

    2. MB says:

      Perfect E.B.!

    3. Bibi says:

      Aw, man what a throwback! Am dancing in my bunny PJs!

      HG and others: of all your victims, I have always found Sophie to be the most annoying. The sugary gets to me. Even if genuine, it comes off as inauthentic. No one is positive all the time. I’m definitely not. 😛

      I think some misinterpret HG’s matter-of-factness for coldness because his statements of facts are different from many empaths. Just to the point.

      HG isn’t gonna coddle you. He is polite, respectful and matter of fact. And I can respect that completely.

      Now, let’s dance. Happy 2019 everyone!

      1. WhoCares says:

        “HG isn’t gonna coddle you. He is polite, respectful and matter of fact. And I can respect that completely.”

        Yep.
        Happy 2019 to you too Bibi!

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Bibi
        100 likes. Happy New Year.

      3. Bibi says:

        Oh and I agree with other commenters in saying that lecturing HG on his behaviors is somewhat counter-intuitive when that’s not the point of this blog.

        As a mood contrast, I will be returning to work today and it already feels like a prison sentence. Ugh. See? Definitely not radiating sunshine and sugar.

        Sophie strikes me as one of those early morning people who will prattle on endlessly about how glad she is to be back at work after the holidays.

        “I just can’t wait to get back in the groove of things, take on all these new assignments!”

        I would have to tell her to please get away from me.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Bibi
          Yes, and you will hear endlessly about how the projects will be flawlessly executed and be the biggest success ever under their watchful eye and because they have the right attitude and that’s why they have been chosen. If you dare to point out that one of the Unicorns has a lame foot and that someone may have an allergy to glitter and suggest considering a contingency plan, you will be lectured on the power of positive thinking and be assured it will not fail.

          Then when things inevitably do not go as planned or it turns to shit, you will witness the perplexed look and hear them mumbling under their breath: I don’t understand what went wrong……………

          Right before they ask you to help right the ship. Yes, I know her lol.

  20. Kate says:

    Happy New Year, HG!!!

    I think that my ex-boyfriend would prefer your ex-Sophie over me – we should set them up! Haha..

  21. Sophia says:

    Interesting story. She loved your commanding, fiery brilliance, but was terrified by her inadequacy. She knew she was incapable of affecting the inevitable conclusion, and so she fluttered like a moth before the flame. Happy New Year, Mr Tudor – may 2019 be more generous!

    1. K says:

      Sophia
      I don’t know if are familiar with this article but I really enjoyed it.

      https://narcsite.com/2015/08/31/like-moths-to-my-fame/

      1. Christopher Jackson says:

        I have never seen this article thanks for sharing

        1. K says:

          My pleasure Christopher Jackson
          That is a really good article. Enjoy.

      2. Sophia says:

        Thank you, I appreciate the link. HG’s site is a beautifully creative labyrinth.

        1. K says:

          You are welcome Sophia
          Narcsite is definitely a beautifully creative labyrinth and the archives are are fabulous.

  22. Christopher Jackson says:

    Very funny “bad boys move in silence” p diddy said that I believe it tho my narc in my life was my father and he did the same shit and I would be in complete awe of this …now I know why a part of the brethren he is…. one of the many reasons that he is rather I should say

  23. DoForLuv says:

    How would the lesser schools of your kind react to this ? 🤔

    1. HG Tudor says:

      React to what DFL?

      1. DoForLuv says:

        . I would be horrible to her and she maintained a smile (although I thought or at least hoped she was dying inside) and made an excuse and found a rationale for my unpleasantness. Insults just seemed to bounce off her. Smashing plates and ornaments caused her to stand and watch with a slightly perplexed look on her face before she tidied the pieces away. She did not cry or show fear. I would sit and flirt with other women online and comment to Sophie about how attractive they were. She would look over and agree with my comments and go on to compliment how white their teeth were or how she liked their hairstyle. If I wandered in during the middle of the morning she would just ask how my night had gone. I am sure she could smell other women on me but she did not seem to react. It was as if she was wrapped in this coating of pleasantness that was impervious to any nastiness thrown at her. She would either respond with a soothing comment, make an excuse for what I had said or done or just not react and get on with her day.

        How would a Lesser or MidRange react to a victim being like this because they operate on instinct

        Because I can be like this alot . And I laugh so many things off .

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Lesser would use physical violence to prompt a reaction. Mid Range would roll out a Pity Play or deliver an Absent Silent Treatment.

  24. Findinglife11 says:

    Interesting

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