10 Rejections of Intimacy


We embrace the trappings of intimacy because we know this is what you expect when our relationship commences. You want to touch us; you want to be touched. You want to gaze into one another’s eyes and revel in what you see there. The tenderness of the kiss, the tingling sensation that arises from the briefest of brushing touches and the safety and security of a hand being held. We endure all of this in order to maintain the illusion of our perfect love and to provide you with that which you have been conditioned to expect as denoting love, affection and passion. Such intimacy repeatedly hints at a place we would rather not go but the necessity of your seduction means that we focus on the task in hand and dispel those occasional thoughts of what that intimacy means and signifies. Those considerations are banished as we press on with our crusade and complete our quest. Once our tendrils are wrapped around you, our fangs sunk deep into your emotional jugular and the fuel flows, then the provision of such intimacy can finally and thankfully be turned to a better application, namely conveying rejection to you and in turn bring about despondency, humiliation and confusion. Whilst we prefer words to do our work, these rejections work marvellously well because of the effect that they have on you and the economy of effort that comes with them. Provision takes effort. Denial comes easily. Here are ten rejections of intimacy.

  1. No eye contact

I don’t want to mirror you any longer but I don’t want you seeing the lurking darkness in my eyes, not just yet. Instead I will settle for evading looking at you, creating the sensation that I cannot bear to look upon you, which is rather accurate because now you are reminding me too much of what I despise and I would rather look elsewhere.

  1. Kissing the top of your head

We know you want to be kissed on the mouth but that isn’t going to happen. Not today and not for a while until I decide I can stomach doing so in order to get something from you that I want. I will kiss you on the head, tilting your head down, making you lower yourself in front of me as I place the patronising light kiss on the top of your head. You are a child to me, someone who knows no better and has to be guided by me. You are bowing, showing fealty through this gesture for I am your ruler and your liege.

  1. Shuddering if you touch us

You cannot place boundaries for me. I go where I want. You however have no entitlement to me. You require my permission and especially so when it means violating my space. If you catch me unawares and touch me, no matter how lightly, I will give a violent shudder as if have been touched by something unpleasant so you are left in no doubt as to what I think about you.

  1. Turning our back on you in bed

This is done as soon as we climb into bed on the occasion we have deigned to provide you with our presence or not banished you from the bedroom with a well-time bout of aggression. You have your hopes raised of sexual union or at least the heart-warming pleasantry of cuddling up together. Instead you receive a glacial wall that is our back and if you think this is an invitation to “spoon” with us you will be sharply elbowed or back heeled away from us.

  1. Avoiding taking your hand

Once upon a time we always took your hand as we walked along the road, through a museum or around the shops, making you feel loved and showing the world that we were together. There was a time when we wanted everyone to know that you were ours. No longer. We will ignore the proffered hand, driving our own into our pockets or shaking off your hand if you happen to grab ours. You don’t decide to show others we are together; don’t you realise that one of my new prospects might see?

  1. Awkward Evasion

You try to place an arm around us and we suddenly jump up as if we have sat on a tack. You attempt to hug us and we move around you like a rugby player evading a tackle, often contorting ourselves into a move which would be more often seen in a gymnastics contortion. Our desire to wriggle away, duck under, escape and move apart suggests that your very touch might burn us. The exaggerated movement can leave you in no doubt that this was deliberate.

  1. One-sided hug

You have taken us by surprise and launched a hug at us, be it from the front, sides or rear. You will not have it reciprocated. There will be no return gesture, no warming and intimate response. We will stand like a block of ice, arms down by our sides, back stiff and stare straight ahead willing this uncomfortable moment to end.

  1. No longer naked

We once paraded around naked in front of you, letting it all hang out, without a care in the world. Truth be told we wanted you to look on our naked form and admire and it was also done to signal to your that we were entirely comfortable around one another in the buff. Now we behave like a coy virgin. We wear pyjamas in bed rather than sleep naked, we lock the bathroom door when we are in there so you cannot walk in on us and we always wrap a towel around us in order to cover-up our intimate areas so you cannot see us. If you happen to walk in unexpectedly when we are naked we will grab the nearest shirt, sombrero or fruit bowl to cover our modesty or dive behind a door, under a bed or out of the window. You don’t get to look any more.

  1. Proffering a cheek

You wait to kiss us and want to plant a tender kiss on our mouth. Others are looking and we must have consideration for the façade. An awkward evasion move now would be unwise and might invite unwanted speculation and comment. Instead we turn our head so you are left with no option but to plant that kiss on our cheek. We will not hold the cheek there either but pull away as soon as you embrace it. You are being given advance warning of your demotion from intimate partner to outer circle friend with this rejection tactic.

  1. Moving if you lean against us

You want to cuddle up next to us on the expansive sofa. If you do, we will get up and move to an armchair as soon as you begin to lean onto us. If you try and the sit in my lap, I will tip you up and deposit you on the floor as I leave the room and give you a silent treatment for pushing the matter too far. If I am lying down watching television and you try and climb on me, you may as well be trying to wrestle a crocodile as I will resist your advance and push you away before moving into a position which is easier to fend you off and send you a clear signal to sit elsewhere.

159 thoughts on “10 Rejections of Intimacy

  1. windstorm says:

    “Who’s on first” is a classic! Totally cracks me up whenever I hear it!

  2. Bibi says:

    HG, your blog has helped me notice more when I am engaging in ET and also when others are as well. Perceived slights can be some of the most frustrating, esp. when you didn’t intend something to have a slight to begin with.

    I’ll clarify myself if needed and then if the person chooses to still carry on with the slight, despite my explanation, that is on them and not me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome and you have adopted a good approach there Bibi.

  3. A383 says:

    HG, thank you for taking the time to respond and for your honest answer. x

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome A383.

  4. Bibi says:

    Been looking at HG’s legs again. Will this be my new wallaper? You and all your bronze fuzz. Just stop.

    I much like those red shorts. Just stop. Quit it. Now. Nice calves.

    I can’t help it, the flesh weakens me. STOP!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They are tangerine, not red.

      1. MB says:

        For the love of Bibi and all things Holy, you may have to take down the pic of the tangerine swim shorts, HG. Grace us with your hand again dear Sir.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Or he could just take the tangerine shorts off all together. MB? MB?

          MEDIC STAT!!!!!!

          1. MB says:

            That was good NA! Although I would be thrilled to see what HG looks like, I don’t think I would need a medic unless he whispered in my ear. If I was ever lucky enough to get a kiss, better grab the defibrillator!

  5. A383 says:

    Narcissists may be disordered but to say they don’t crave intimacy is wrong. They’re human. Unfortunately, HG’s emotional intelligence is low,
    that why he rejects intimacy. It’s fear.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Incorrect, my emotional intelligence is high. The rejection of intimacy is explained in Sex and the Narcissist.

      1. A383 says:

        According to Daniel Goleman, an American psychologist who helped to popularize emotional intelligence, there are five key elements to it:
        * Self-awareness.
        * Self-regulation.
        * Motivation.
        * Empathy.
        * Social skills.

        HG, would you say you have low empathy then as opposed to no empathy? Regards x

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thanks for your observations A383, I have no emotional empathy. I have cognitive empathy – which is in effect fake empathy – I know what is expected of me in terms of response, but I only do it for my purposes rather than any genuine feeling behind it. Please see the article ‘The Three Strands of Empathy’.

          1. DebbieWolf says:



            Oh yes . And I have read Sitting Target aswell, forgot to mention it.
            I think it’s also worth mentioning that it’s a good idea to read a book a few times..

            it’s a little bit like seeing the articles here and reading them again when they are repeated… is a great idea because you see them differently as time goes on.
            again it’s when emotional thinking comes down a bit and when you read something you can see it better.

            That’s why I have advocated to you personally in email that it’s great to see the repeats of articles so they sink in further a little later on.

            Also things like forever wrong on the throne etc or words to that effect, that’s an article I had never seen before so another good reason to put them up again.

            Thanks for your time thanks for reading.
            Take care 🐾

      2. MB says:

        HG, you have the highest emotional intelligence of anybody I know. Just sayin’.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Keep on sayin’ MB!

          1. MB says:

            Emotional intelligence isn’t what it sounds like and it isn’t what most people think it is.

            First and foremost, it is being able to control your own emotions. (HG-check)

            Second, it is being able to read another person and see what they are feeling and adjust your responses accordingly. (HG-check, check)

      3. Twilight says:


        emotional intelligence (countable and uncountable, plural emotional intelligences)

        (psychology) The ability, capacity, or skill to perceive, assess, and manage the emotions of oneself, of others, and of groups.

        You definitely recognize and control your own, highly skilled in perceiving others emotions and able to control them in either a group or individually.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Twilight.

          1. Twilight says:

            Your welcome HG.

  6. Mona says:

    I do not think, that due the time of seduction, everything is planned to abuse someone later. If that would be the case, they would not invest so much of their time and their money. They are still narcs, no psychopaths. A pure psychopath would think about his “investment” and would do as less as possible to make someone bond to him. They are only interested in the outcome. Low cost – high profit. They do only, what is necessary.
    Narcissistic people are a bit different. They do a lot for you in the beginning, because they dream of the never-ending fuel and seem to believe they could find the Holy Grail (each time again).

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Mona says:

        Thank you, HG.

  7. inspire2bu says:


    Funny that you say your kind does this to us. I have performed everyone of these with my narc for the last 18+ months. He still hangs on.

    1. Saskia says:

      I have stated something similar with regards to rejecting the physical aspect of intimacy. If you’d care to share your thoughts – do you believe that you performed those rejections as a response to the narcissistic behaviours of your partner? I ask because you state that he still hangs on.

      1. inspire2bu says:

        I have performed these rejections becsuse I now know who and what he is. Once I was able to see him clearly I could no longer stand the thought of being intimate with him. The abuse, the porno, the others…The thought actually repulses me to my core! He merely hangs on becsuse I’m am his possession. They are all about appearance. So, to the outside world our nuclear family looks well. That is all he cares about. I’ve asked HG these questions and his response was that
        1. He hasn’t yet found another IPS
        2. Me still being here provides him fuel
        3. It is the appearances
        I stayed out of guilt for my children. I didn’t want a broken home. We are already broken. My intent was good but it was to the detriment of my children and myself. We live and learn. I hope this answered your question.

        1. Saskia says:

          Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and for adding another perspective to the reasons why some of us engage in similar behaviours, albeit for different reasons. I am sorry that you and your children are going through this difficult situation.
          It stands out to me here that you describe your feelings as going ‘to the core’ – your revulsion towards his abusive behaviours and manipulations is palpable. I understand your reaction very well.

          “My intent was good but it was to the detriment of myself and my children. I didn’t want a broken home.”

          I am not a mother and cannot speak from experience, but I understand those reasons. Sometimes, it is easy to realise on a rational level that certain things or behaviours are wrong and painful to the point where it is hard to bear the other person’s attitude but other important factors, perhaps long-standing beliefs about the life we built and yes, emotions, come into play that hamper decision making. Building a life together and having children is an ‘investment’ of emotions, hopes, energy, hard work and time spent together – it is very understandable, from my perspective, that you, as you state, stayed out of guilt for your children. It takes time to process and let the cold, hard truth of a situation sink in until able to take decisive steps based on what is best for oneself and our loved ones. Yes, we live and we learn – that makes us human. It’s good to read that you have already received some clear-cut answers from HG.

  8. DebbieWolf says:

    Hello everyone.
    My bad.

    I replied to Tappi T and put my comment on forever wrong up on the throne…

    Just to explain: because I was really on this thread answering everything and doing everything on a mobile phone I thought that Tappi was referring to everything on this thread and I stupidly responded there thinking I was on this thread.🙄

    Tappi had said that the piece had made her feel angry like she had been taken for a ride… Of course she was referring to the other topic…

    And I thought I was on this thread..

    So I’d like to just post what I said because it relates to this thread really..

    …about how it makes you feel angry as though been taken for a ride…

    As follows:
    Tappi T x

    Exactly! That’s exactly it. and trying to work out which bits were what and which bits I ended up missing time and time again in my past…I thought that I was engaging honestly and genuinely with someone while all along the other person was just scheming quite a lot of the time if not from the very off…
    All this began to piece together in a kind of culmative jumble and I ended up with this 7 headed monster.

    I started to feel extremely combative with my need to pin into the box mentally just what the hell is going on with them.

    Because it’s not just what has happened to anyone of us but to see things occurring to others around … I mean I’m extremely protective as it is and I need to know what I’m dealing with not just for me but for other people.

    Talk about bear your teeth and growl relatively ferociously! And take them down!
    (Lol and yet seriously though)

    Because at the end of the day if people are so charming to you in the start knowing that it was all a plot … If that had been the case… well ..!

    My hackles were twice the size here!

    Thank you to everyone who helped me understand this more. Xxx


  9. Nika- Being Real... Confused says:

    Eventually, I think we all get painted as Black by the Narcissist. That’s okay because they are certainly not the brightest shining light in my universe, either.

  10. Bibi says:

    Those who have animals don’t ever sleep naked. Or at least they shouldn’t. My feet get cold without socks. I have too many cats.

    I have done many of these. Had a narcy ex who always wanted to hold my hand and ‘show me off’ but it felt forced and cheesy so I would pull away. Then he would play the victim.

    His nickname for me was ‘pb’ which is the chemical element symbol for lead. He used to also pat my head and tell me what a tiny head I had. “Such a tiny head with such a little brain inside.” Pat. Pat.

    The ironic thing is that I broke up with him because he intellectually bored me. Whenever I tried asking him philosophical questions/situations, he’d respond, “I don’t know! Stop asking me all these questions!”

    I have had more than one guy speak down to me as this despite my having more talents/credentials/knowledge than they. They must feel threatened or something and then feel the need to prey on my insecurities/lack of confidence.

    I am not sure if this ex had full-blown NPD because I did not go through all the trauma that the sociopath narcs caused me, but he was definitely very high on the scale and I always sensed his ’empathy’ was for display.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I only hope you patted his tiny little (lower) head and referred to it as his little brain. I might have choked the living shit out of it and then declared that he’d think much clearer now with it being expunged of all his “little” thoughts. Seriously, how did you not punch his tiny little brain?

      1. Bibi says:


        He had an enormous sphere for a head–gigantic, even, which of course did not guarantee an enormous brain. He was boring and used to even talk down to wait staff. Very insecure!

        I remember I shared with him the film ‘Before Sunrise’–remember that? With Ethan Hawke? So Romantic! One of my young adult faves! Ethan was my fantasy guy for 2 yrs.

        Well, I got douchebag to watch it with me and he was bored. Nothing moved him. Didn’t read, no appreciation for art or poetry, etc, yet he played the pretentious role.

        And to answer your query, I did punch his tiny brain. The thing is, he wasn’t smart enough to encapsulate me. When we broke up I was glad and felt free. And he did engage in several Incredible Sulk moments, as well.

        I could get into stories but they would bore thee.

        I’ll just share the trailer. One of my all time fave Young Adult films. Just beautiful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v7N34d5HE

    2. K says:

      Pulling your hand away was challenge fuel and he played the victim (probably a midrange) to provoke a reaction from you (pity) to gain fuel, exert control and assert superiority.

      The nickname pb (hidden meaning/insult) denotes possession and objectification which made it easier for him to control and abuse you and patting you on the head (demeaning) was also done to assert superiority and control and to provoke a reaction from you.

      He probably was intellectually boring because many narcissists only possess a superficial knowledge of current events, art, wine, etc., because they steal character traits for their construct. Your questions were challenge fuel; he isn’t accountable to you so he isn’t going to answer them (you better stop or else).

      Speaking down to you is belittling and representative of contempt and is done to assert superiority, gain a negative response from you (fuel) and exert control.

      Narcissists are pathologically envious and you were perceived as a threat/challenge and needed to be put down.

      1. MB says:

        K, I love the way you can see so clearly all the narcissistic nuances of the stories people tell. Do you enjoy it? Performing an autopsy of an interaction.

        1. K says:

          Thank you MB!
          I do enjoy it because it allows me to practice everything I have learned here and then I am able to transfer that into helping others understand their entanglement(s) better so they can move forward. When you get your ET under control, the logic takes over and accelerates healing.
          Logic is quite amazing when you think of it

          1. DebbieWolf says:


            Hiya … Thank you for directing me and for your comment… I have posted this or at least I thought I had with a paragraph… I can’t see it in moderation so perhaps it got lost somehow.
            I did appreciate you pointing me in the right direction of course I did.
            You are a godsend K. Appreciated x

          2. K says:

            You are welcome DebbieWolf!
            And thank you very much. If you need answers and I can facilitate that then I will do my best to point you in the right direction. We are all here to help each other and figure things out.

      2. MB says:

        K, I find these explanations helpful. HG doesn’t have the time to to pick these interactions apart and explain in such detail. (Outside of a consultation.)

        1. K says:

          Thank you MB!
          I am pleased that you and others find them helpful. Many people have been hurt and are desperately in need of answers and, when I first arrived on narcsite, I was one of them.

      3. Bibi says:


        You just described it completely. Yes, thank you. Like I said, I don’t speak of this guy much because I did not undergo the trauma as I did with the narcopath pathological liar, sadist, etc.

        When we broke up I was glad. But yes, I agree with everything you say.

      4. Bibi says:

        Oh and just to follow up K:

        I love your answer so much that I copied and pasted it for myself. I need to read these words over and over. It’s one of those things I intuitively knew but needed someone else to mutter. So, thank you.


        1. K says:

          Thank you Bibi!
          I am very happy to read that my comment helped you. We intuitively know these things but sometimes we need to hear it reflected back to us so we can digest it and see it clearly. Ha ha ha….you are welcome and I am here muttering for you.

          Hugs back!

  11. Chihuahuamum says:

    I find this one very upsetting. Basically a form of shelving and punishing in one.

  12. Saskia says:

    I am guilty of rejecting intimacy in quite similar ways. Getting close(er) to someone and having intimacy on a constant, reliable basis feels (physically) uncomfortable at times – this is when I feel the urge to ‘escape’, particularly when the other person ignores my pleas to give me some more space. However, I don’t feel indifferent about or enjoy hurting or pushing someone away.

  13. DebbieWolf says:


    You have said previously and repeatedly that when you are in the seduction of a new prospect that everything is marvellous, not just for the target, but for you yourself, as when you are in this phase you are hopeful and thinking that this person, as the “new and shiny prospect”, with the possibility in your mind that she could be “the one.”
    You would even deal out a malign hoover to anyone who interrupted you during this marvelous seduction of yours should they disturb you during it.

    And yet you use words such as “endure”… You “endure” the intimacy etc and go on to say that once the person has been successfully seduced you can “thankfully” turn to better applications… which is to cause that person nothing short of abject misery.

    i.e. ” Once our tendrils are wrapped around you, our fangs sunk deep into your emotional jugular and the fuel flows, then the provision of such intimacy can finally and thankfully be turned to a better application, namely conveying rejection to you and in turn bring about despondency, humiliation and confusion.”

    Why thankfully?
    Why finally?
    During seduction?
    During the phase that you say you are hopeful this person is the one?

    How are such considerations manifest during seduction?
    The terms finally and thankfully are indicative of pre-planning.

    I understand victims of abuse such as yourself in the past would not like intimacy now and I can understand an abhorrence of it, a rejection of it, an avoidance, even if she is “the one”, but you are not saying that you will try to avoid the intimacy somehow.

    You are saying that “finally” and “thankfully” once the person is successfully seduced, you then turn the effort you pour into seduction into causing them despondency, humiliation and confusion.

    It implies how you can’t wait until they are seduced, implies the relief, so that you can “finally” and “thankfully” get to the horrible part.

    I cannot stress the word “thankfully” enough is to be so indicative of malice aforethought here.
    yes it’s fuel it’s all about the pure everything you do is to get to the fuel.
    But we are talking about the hope the person is the one but you’re saying thankfully in finally you can get to the horrible bit which is dismissing the hope that the person is the one.
    It appears to show that it’s all about the fuel all along and there is no hope that the person is the one? it appears to show that you’re not looking for the one at all surely?

    It appears to show from the wording of this piece that from the start you do not think the person is the one at all. In fact it shows no hope in reality on your part if you are deliberately seducing them in order that you can cause them the despondency, humiliation and confusion that you describe, by arriving “finally” and “thankfully” at that point where you put the person in a state of turmoil.

    You’re outlining there clearly, and by implication, that you are looking forward to getting to the rejection phase by the use of the words “finally” and “thankfully.”

    You’re basically laying it out on the table that it’s a plan from the beginning surely?

    And is this not backed up from other comments you’ve made about how you have “already won the battle before it is even fought’ and how a target has “lost” the moment anything begins.. the moment they have you they have already lost you..(words to that effect that you wrote.)

    This is clearly saying that right at the beginning it is already over, which therefore shoots down in flames that you have any hope at all during the seduction of this person being the one, does it not?

    “Hope” you call “an impostor” anyway, which again evidences there can be no hope during seduction.

    Every human being has their hope dashed at times in life, but you are so adamant that hope is an “imposter” and doesn’t exist at any stage that I cannot resolve your meaning in the first instance of you saying you have “high hopes” that a person will turn out to be the one during the marvellous seduction.

    Again I cannot resolve in my own mind how to make sense of you saying that “they let you down” from your perspective (or at least in your mind) when your perspective from the very start is to get to this final relief stage where you can “thankfully” turn their happiness into humiliation and confusion.

    I know the golden period is a facade for the reasons that you teach, you can’t feel love etc, but it’s supposed to be a trade-off isn’t it? i.e. if they turn out to be the one and also providing fuel while unaware that you provide the false love…and ‘where can be the harm in that?’ scenario (which was one element of discussing the interaction between narcissist and empath.)

    If the person turned out to be the one, how could it possibly work ever? if you are so busy being “thankful” and “finally” getting to the stage of hurting them?

    The implications appear to show how you didn’t expect them to be “the one” right from the get go.

    I’m sure you will correct me if I am incorrect.. that is if you print my comment, as logically I cannot see a way through this at all.
    I cannot make head nor tail of this.

    This is a place of instruction and learning so I do hope you do not see it as a criticism.

    I genuinely cannot join, what to me, yes in my perspective, appears to look like a series of impossible dots.

    1. windstorm says:

      I understand your point about the “finally” being able to stop intimacy. Maybe the whole idea of hoping that this girl is “the one” is just self-delusion. After all, narcs lie to themselves just like we do.

      My Moron in Munich told me early on that he never had found “the one.” When asked what disqualified women he’d dated, he said that they would always criticize him. He wanted a woman who would never ask any questions or make any critical comments. I just laughed and said he’d have better luck looking for one of us who never slept! A rational person who was honest with himself would realize such a person can’t exist. But narcs can delude themselves just like empaths do.

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        Windstorm, hello there x

        My second to last nex also said to me that he hadnt found the one when I first met him too.

        He couldn’t be the one for anybody else himself!
        Classic hypocrisy.
        I don’t even need a pinch of salt anymore for that old line.

        And you are right, we all delude ourselves at times including and especially the narcissists.
        (Forgive me if I appear biased.)

        I do not believe that HG deludes himself at any point based on that he ‘thankfully’ and ‘finally’ can stop the intimacy part once a target is ’embedded.’

        Finally. Thankfully.
        It’s these two words.

        It ‘appears’… I stress ‘appears’ to clearly show he was only using the seduction to get to the horrible bit, once they were embedded.

        They’ve lost once they first got with him (his own words on the theme approximately)

        Where does the delusion begin for him. (Rhetorical question)

        It does not begin.

        HG is not deluded.
        At any point of the physical seduction.

        And this is the jewel in the crown of my original point:
        That HG is not deluded, nor does he delude himself at any stage.

        I am sure he could tell me if that is correct or incorrect if he chose to do so.

        He is in therapy learning why he does what he does we know, and he does have a disorder we also know all this. But I don’t believe he is deluded at the onset of seduction.

        – he believes somebody to be the one the very first time he sees or speaks to them but then decides relatively immediately, or very shortly thereafter, that they are not the one ..but then still goes ahead with everything else seduction wise so that he can destroy them? is this the correct scenario? Really?
        Has the person let him down so monumentally at the very onset? Very unlikely.
        Not impossible obviously but unlikely in all cases.

        Is this above paragraph then the part where he is deluding himself..? the bit where he momentarily and very temporarily thinks they are the one? Just in that small slither of time?

        Again, unlikely.
        Not impossible but also not probable.

        Later at the onset of the seduction and as soon as he gets with somebody, the ball is in motion (pardon the pun… Although I didn’t say balls) they have already lost him…this is as he says so.
        So my conundrum continues:
        Where is the part where he is thinking someone is the one?

        I have no need or reason to be contentious in this but I cannot find the specific point where he is in the belief that somebody is the one or where he has these high hopes.

        Where is the time slot? where is the part where these high hopes reside?

        Where do I pin him down on this point?
        I will answer it.
        I do not pin him down.
        I cannot pin him down on it.
        Therefore I concede.

        He is very high functioning and very aware right at the beginning. He knows exactly what to do and what he is doing.

        He does not have hope, he does not believe in it.
        This is not me making a sweeping statement this is what he has told.

        This is not me being contentious. This is what he has taught.

        He does what he does, and it is what it is, right at the start.

        This is why I say I cannot resolve in the first instance the terminology as to how he has high hopes this person would be the one and then they let him down.

        The minute they sat down to dinner for example they had lost him.
        (He says as much as somewhere else, words very close to that) as soon as they have him.. they’ve lost him already… they are already on the slide of Doom… Being up on the pedestal is the best position in readiness for toppling…

        It is a illogical to conclude anything else from the wording.

        I take no pleasure in saying this to be the conclusion I arrived at, and I find it relatively heartbreaking and a horrible thought which drives the next question: is the delusion therefore in the writing only? in the writing only? Re: In respect of hoping for the one?

        In the writing only of high hopes… does the hope exist there alone? only between the lines on a page? only in word alone and that in reality and in the physical world it does not exist?

        Therefore what remains is that “it is” the case that the person has lost him the minute he has them, as he actually says to be the case.

        Let us not make any bones about my loyalty to HG. I am grateful for all the help I have received, the instruction, the support. This does not change.

        However back to the subject of finding the one:
        I do not believe being the one comes into the seduction of most, if not all, based on the wording “finally” and “thankfully” showing a desire to get to the embedded part finally and thankfully to turn effort to the better application of causing confusion. humiliation and despondency (“at last” by implication) is malice aforethought.

        I may be incorrect on this but I have to stand by it since I have not been corrected on that specific point.

        It is not a concern, it was simply a point of view and some questioning on it.

        My impression of it is that it is to be left there.
        So I will leave it there.

        This is not my blog.
        I will leave it there in the absence of any extra detail.

        If I do not leave it there, it will appear as though I am saying I will do so, but then go on and perpetuate a circular discussion … And I do not think HG wants it.

        I must leave it there.

        I do see your point Windstorm though. Be assured of that.

        I think I will stop here also as I’m not sure my phone can take it..lol.

        DW xx

        1. windstorm says:

          Also remember all articles aren’t solely from his perspective. Some are more representative of other types of narcissists. Also some are from his past before he had gained as much self-understanding as he has now.

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. DebbieWolf says:


            Yes thank you xx…yes and I’ve put some other comments on as well that say about what it was making me think and why I was asking the questions and raising the points.
            This will explain Ithat do understand this and hoping for the answers so that I could refer them to pass circumstance..
            Whilst I can see the mid-range and the lesser in a couple of x’s I can see greater narcissist…an LGN in one of them.
            Some years ago.
            That was short-lived.
            I got the hell out of that.!
            He was malicious and boasted of some things he had done.. things he calculated I couldn’t believe he told me..
            Once I knew and this was only after a few weeks about a month… I bailed.

      2. WhoCares says:


        I agree; regarding the delusion.

        DebbieWolf – I get your questioning and line of reason and it reminds me of a question I asked HG on “built-in obsolescence” (because we think that with his awareness and logic that he must know that it is doomed from the beginning, so how can he suggest to himself, or us, that there is the One) when targeting a new IPPS. And he confirmed that Greaters are indeed capable of losing site of logic:

        “WhoCares on May 7, 2018 at 12:07

        So, Greaters are capable of losing sight of logic as well?

        HG Tudor on May 7, 2018 at 12:46


        Here’s a link to the original conversation:


        1. WhoCares says:


          Actually, you contributed to that thread as well…here is the original question I asked HG:


        2. DebbieWolf says:

          Who Cares

          Haha… Superb.😂
          I remember now putting “bloody typical”…I think that was a very quick response of mine based on that HG had not said one or the other in response to a question and I think I was being sarcasti (haha) when I put “bloody typical”l in response to his answer “neither”.

          I didn’t remember him saying that greaters are prone to being illogical sometimes/on occasion.

          Ideal… Thank you Who Cares.
          That helps and I appreciate that input. X

          1. WhoCares says:


            No problem; I glad I could help 🙂

            I’m interested in this topic and recalled the past discussion. I understand your questioning.

            In that past conversation I couldn’t help comparing ‘appliances’ and the idea of built-in obsolescence (which applies to actual appliances and devices these days) because narcs have a tendency to target people who have psychological wounds that will inevitably cause them to fail at providing fuel over time..then a new appliance must be sought.

            But that particular exchange put it to rest (for me) that the illusion and lust for fuel rules – and that we are being given a ‘truth’…or a perspective. It is a reality for a narcissist; even if we struggle to grasp it, from our perspective.

    2. DebbieWolf says:

      Thanks HG

      I have used the pingback function.
      I understand about the golden periods etc.
      I understand about the prime aims and the gathering of fuel etc.
      I’ve got all that. I knew before.

      My original comment refers to you with high hopes of a person being the one to such a degree that you concentrate on them alone “hoping” them to actually be
      “THE ONE” …
      (Supplementary sources in the background just in case as a backup not withstanding)

      You’ve said before that you are searching for the one who will be able to cancel out this awful exhausting quest.

      The points in my original comment still stand regardless of how you do this.
      My point being that you know they are not the one at the beginning.

      I understand how you carry out the search for fuel… I understand that bit already.

      I don’t understand how you can say you are looking for the one when you already know they are not the one at the beginning.

      This is my point.

      Not about why you do it all and how you do it.

      I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this because I still don’t get it.

      I do not understand.

      I am happy to take the blame for not understanding the quest for “the one” as described in other articles.

      In life sometimes we have to realise there is no answer to some questions.
      Because the answer doesn’t exist.. so I concede.

      Otherwise it would be a circular conversation and I don’t do those.

      I will not insult your intelligence or indeed mine, by trying to ask the same questions in a different way, although I do appreciate that if a point isn’t made articulately in the first instance it is a good idea to ask a question in a different, way I accept that.

      Nevertheless, I don’t think that to be the case here. I believe I made my point the first time around.

      I am not going to doubt my judgement.
      Unless deeper enlightenment is shed on it, I consider the matter closed.

      Que Sera Sera.
      Thank you for your consideration and for reading… And hopefully, for printing my comment.


      1. HG Tudor says:


        1. DebbieWolf says:



          I dare say.
          Further, indeed.

          However I do not know which areas to apply the word incorrect to.

          So I will remain unenlightened.

          This does not concern me now.
          I have made my point and passed my opinion.

          In the absence of enlightenment it would be illogical for me to change what I have said, asked or concluded.

          So II wil leave the matter there as I do not entertain illogical.
          It is illogical for me to apply your word of “incorrect” to the unknown, unenlightened areas I alluded to at the start.

          I will leave the matter there, however I will continue to be fascinated generally.

          I am a deep thinker.
          Many things come to my mind over a period of time.

          This will be no different and I will work it out.

          Thank you for reading.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            See K’s point.

      2. A383 says:

        DebbieWolf. You interpreted the article very well. I think HG actually craves intimacy but once it’s there it scares him as it reminds him of his mother’s skewed idea of intimacy when he was young and so he’s ‘forced’ to push it away. So sad. x

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Yes. It is.


        2. K says:

          They do not crave intimacy, they crave fuel.

      3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Trust your judgement Debbie, you’re a rational person.
        You made a valid observation and asked a reasonable question.
        HG has dodged answering your question. I guess your answer lies in that response. Meant with all due respect HG.

        Windstorm is right, the self delusion, however momentary, is endemic to HGs kind yet also present in all types of people.

        I enjoyed your post.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not answer all questions, I do not have the time.

          1. WhoCares says:


            You do not have to respond. I’m just speculating because this has been a point to mull over for me as well…

            I think that I, and others, have a hard time grasping this (that greaters can fall for their own ‘illusion’ or self-delude) because there is your expectation that, once enlightened, we empaths will learn to recognize our own illusion, or self-delusion, by applying what we have absorbed here. We (I) have difficulty, given your level of awareness, understanding how it is that you cannot apply the same awareness of the illusion (that you are only lusting after fuel) when you have so much control – and choices – over how you maintain and harvest fuel.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            WhoCares and Debbie Wolf

            With regard to HG’s explanation of the illusion of The One, I understand his answer but still also have some difficulty with his recognition that I am able to articulate fully. I was reminded during my discussion with him on the Heavy Weighs The Crown article that we are expecting the same results of the application of things (such as logic) to him that are applied to us. I think this is where the disorder kicks in. Empaths can have all the logic in the world and still get ensnared, but we can adjust the emotional thinking and revert back to more logic. It appears that although he has great logic and emotional control (of the emotions he does possess), the disorder kicks in during the infatuation period of the target and overrides his normally superior logic to identify that this time it will work. If I understand correctly, this means that although he can see it for what it is at a distance and during discussion with us, while he is in that period, the disorder allows him to believe the salvation of The One over logic and therefore he is not premeditating their destruction from the outset. That high (the disorder at work) eventually dims, the logic fully returns, and he sees her as the normal human being that she is (but of course we have failed him in NOT being The One and special from his perspective). This disgusts him and devaluation begins. I’m sure he will correct me if this is inaccurate but that is my understanding thus far (or at least how I am able to explain it).

          3. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for articulating that. Your explanation is clear about how you perceive it and I understand it similarly.

          4. DebbieWolf says:


            I think that this is correct and to be fair all the different comments put forward more or less do add up to it being like a virtual book… One that I can refer to if need be.
            I am very grateful to read everyone’s opinion it has helped immensely.

            May I send you all my love. ❤️

            I guess emotional thinking on all fronts including mine And anyone in an infatuatio are responsible for a great deal.
            We are who we are some of us are emotional and have emotions and some of us do not and it is I guess trying to get the happy balance in life.

            We can reduce our emotional thinking but at the end of the day we can’t reduce who we are and nor should we.

            Nevertheless emotional thinking can be responsible for making mistakes.

            But many things are learnt from mistakes too.

            I guess we must ever continue to improve on all fronts and gain understanding as much as possible.

            I am going to keep trying.

            As for myself I think I really had too much emotion lately and I do feel a sense of despondency and a little dimming.

            This will pass and I should soon feel brighter I hope.

            One thing is sure and as certain as death and taxes…. All things pass and Life goes on.

            Debs xx

          5. MB says:

            Don’t despair DW! I am right there with you re: despondent and dimming. I’m blaming it on the moon! As you said, this too shall pass. Much love!

          6. DebbieWolf says:


            Thanks x
            I’m a flat as a pancake…for now at least.

            Best wishes to you too.

            May I also add a big thank you to K here too….
            I cannot see some of my previous comments to her in moderation.
            I often get the Gremlins when the thread becomes long.
            I can see some other comments where I have followed up are moderationin but just not those…
            So I just wanted to get that in here if poss.

        2. DebbieWolf says:


          Many thanks xx

      4. SuperXena says:

        Hello Debbie Wolf,

        I understand where you are coming from and I can feel your bewilderment.

        What I am writing to you next is based on my experience as intimate partner primary source of a GE( Greater Elite narcissistic psychopath) for six years.(Escaped and I can strongly say now that I have successfully moved on being always grateful for that to this site).

        -My ex’s belief during the Golden Period was a GENUINE belief that I was the one. He kept the facade giving EVERYTHING he had to keep the “treasure” he had finally found ( being faithful, attentive,supportive,”caring”, magnanimous with presents ,flowers, romantic, responsive ,phone calls,texts etc.)

        -He did this with the strong belief that this time was the one and NOT with the calculated intention of ensnaring me first to then devalue me or abuse me.

        No, the initial intention was not that . It was not calculated or planned to do so. The initial intention was to fake the facade to make it work out and yes he maintained the facade strongly to do that.

        However, regardless of their genuine initial intention, the harsh truth is that the devaluation will eventually come :

        a) as long as the narcissist needs to build and keep ( by manipulations) a facade( for whatever reason it may be either to protect their fragile ego /true-self from narcissistic wounding or to compensate for the in-existence of a true-self)
        b) and due to their lack of object constancy ,empathy and consequently their inability of bonding ;

        the outcome then will invariably be the same being the above mentioned factors the result of a combination of genetics and childhood trauma.

        Regardless of who is on the other side of the equation, they will at some point eventually feel disappointed or criticised as long as the variables( a-b) from the narcissist’s side remain the same . However this inevitable outcome is not calculated or premeditated from their side .That is my experience.

        What is true is that when the devaluations take place, they are far more intense and in the case of the high echelons they are calculated ,intentional and premeditated. Specially those who have a streak ( or wider than a streak)of malice and sadism.

        I do not think they are delusional as such either. They just have different parameters ( points of references/ perspectives) than we have of what is to be loyal, to be trustworthy, to be faithful being these concepts very volatile and changing depending on the status and fluidity of the dynamic / movement of their fuel matrix and their fuel needs.

        Their reality is “fluid” ( adapts to changing conditions) and such are their needs and the reality of their needs.

        They invest time and energy and yes , at the end the outcome is the same ( if the variables remain the same) but that is not intentional.
        Best wishes!

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Thank you for taking the time to explain that for me.. that eases my mind quite a bit to be honest.
          You are right it was bewildering and I could not make head nor tail of it, I couldn’t find a way through it in my mind.

          It triggered memories from different narcissists that I’ve gone out with and it began to become a jumble as to what had been deliberately done or not.

          I must admit in my mind I was thinking things like omg and he (appropriate to whichever nex) must have known this and he must have known that and when he did this and when he did that it all meant this and it all meant that…. Everything began to look like a plot of malicious behaviour and I could feel myself bubbling with a huge array of emotion. I can handle the emotion but I needed to put everything in it’s appropriate box mentally if you follow me.

          And I started to think omg.
          Right then!!!
          Aye, I needed to pin this down.

          Thank you SX for taking the time to help understand.
          I appreciated that x.

          1. SuperXena says:

            You are most welcome Debbie Wolf.
            Remember: their emotional thinking during the infatuation of the Golden Period overrides completely every single time the logic of the process they have gone through many times before.It blinds them to see the fact that keeping the same variables= same outcome.
            Best wishes.

          2. DebbieWolf says:

            Thanks again SuperXena

            I’m hoping for a book I can keep forever on my shelf so that I can remember these things.

            Sometimes dresd takes over and I simply see pre-planning these days.
            so having everything in a book when I need to refer to it at the worst times which is what I do with the other books is the best way forward for me now.

            The very best of wishes to you too.
            Take care of yourself and yours..xx

      5. Lori says:

        It never ceases to amaze me how this comes up over and over about HG not answering questions. When would the man have time to answer all questions posed? There is a ridiculous amount of traffic here. I have no idea how he gets it all done. I can tell you he’s answers many of my questions even the ones I have asked more than once. For a Narcissist, he’s been lost he been gracious and helpful. No he doesn’t “dodge” questions. He doesn’t have to.

        This furthers my point on another thread. There seems to be this notion that all Narcissusts are bad and do bad things which is not the case. Take this blog; there is nothing bad going on here in fact just the opposite but we do not work for HG and we are not intimately involved with him which is why most of us find him likeable and don’t see him thru the bad narcissist lens. This is not exclusive to him, it’s jyst most of us were intimately involved with Narcs and they can’t handle it causes a certain very negative behavior in them but if you are too close to them you find they often five to be around as long as you keep a certain distance and limit the exposure

      6. Bibi says:

        All the narcs I have known have had mommy issues. HG is no exception, there. (Sorry HG, you’re not.)

        This is not to say all the moms have been Mid Rangers as in HG’s case but some might have been smothering empaths. Every single narc I’ve known had some strange relationship with his mother or was babied to death.

        They fold their socks into little balls or buy them sheets based upon high thread count and bake them cakes for their 40th b-day. They baby the shit out of them or neglect the shit out of them.

        I had a narc/sociopath father, on the other hand. Very different results. More lack of confidence and low self esteem resulted.

      7. shesaw says:


        Your idea matches with research on biological aspects, where scientists have found that especially dopamine levels differ in narsissists/psychopaths.

        Citing from my memory : Narcissists/psychopaths do have 4 or 5 times higher dopamine levels during the start of a realationship compared to ‘normals’. In ‘normal’ state, they have lower dopamine levels than ‘normals’
        The idea is that the dopamine rush is what makes them very onriented to the reward (which could explain their extreme focus on their partner during golden period) and makes them feel the intense infatuation.

        Now when the newness/shinyness dissapears after some time, their dopamine levels crash, and their brain disconnects from the infatuation – and at the same time from the person who this infatuation was linked too.
        Since they are not capable of attachment, there is nothing left to keep. This is where devaluation starts.

        I found this research results interesting to read, and though there is much more to NPD/psycopathy at a biological level than dopamine levels, this was so surprisingly matching your explanation that I decided to share it with you.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Thank you for sharing that. I have read many articles about NPD and of course observed many Ns in action in my personal life (although I did not know at that time what they were), but ultimately formed that opinion from reading all of the articles and having conversations here on the blog. The subject is fascinating to me and there is a wealth of information here that I just cannot get anywhere else that is able to hold my interest and that breaks it down so that I can continue to put pieces of the puzzle together. I am not always able to articulate my understanding and sometimes I get it wrong, but I continue to learn more here than I have anywhere else and have fun with people such as yourself while doing it.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            A ringing endorsement and entirely accurate.

          2. shesaw says:

            (Lol me, such a fun typo on a narcissist blog: ‘realationship’. I wish I had done that on purpose)

          3. shesaw says:

            NA, you have great understanding, unfortunately also from being so close to many of them. I have met a few, too bad I got romantically entangled with one.
            I love to read and learn here too. The longer NC the better it becomes.

        2. Mercy says:

          Shesaw, that very interesting information. I know about dopamine in the beginning of a relationship but did not know narcissist/psychopaths have higher levels. Is it in your opinion that there is dopamine involved in the devaluation period since this is also somewhat a high for them?

          1. shesaw says:

            Hi Mercy, I don’t know. I found the article on the internet and the first thing I thought was: “Wow. Is dopamine actually HG’s ‘fuel’?’ It seems so similar (but I guess it ‘s more complicated). If dopamine behaves also as ‘devaluation fuel’ I don’t know – it pretty well could, since its function is linked to ‘feeling good’. But again, I don’t know. I am just as curious as you are.

          2. K says:

            shesaw and Mercy
            I think the negative acquired during devaluation gives them a rush similar to how we might experience schadenfreude and that could be a very addictive feeling.

            HG Tudor
            FEBRUARY 7, 2017 AT 22:34
            Hello Sunshine,

            Your autocorrect just wants you to flirt with me.

            1. I have no idea what happiness is.

            2. The closest equivalent to me is a sensation of power. The rush of power.


          3. shesaw says:

            K, thank you! I like your idea of schadenfreude, because that is something I can relate to personally, to a certain extent – that must be the malevolent part in myself. However, I can honestly say that I am not addicted to it!

          4. K says:

            You are welcome shesaw!
            Ha ha ha…I understand schadenfreude and I have a dark side (shadow; Carl Jung) too.

          5. MB says:

            Is schadenfreude what we experience when it makes us laugh to see somebody kicked in the nuts in YT videos? Serious question.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            No, nut kicking is just intrinsically entertaining MB!!

            (Actually it is -it is pleasure derived from someone else’s misfortune – of course since they deserved the misfortune there’s no problem.)

          7. MB says:

            Thank you answering that, HG! The Fail Army videos are also very funny but I sometimes feel guilty laughing. That usually is their own fault for doing something stupid though.

          8. K says:


          9. shesaw says:

            Yikes to the YT vids (!) but yeah… I am able to enjoy the deserved misfortune of others. Not proud to admit, but I would be lying if I said I didn’t have it in me.

          10. Mercy says:

            I lean toward yes on this. Originally I was thinking yes because both love and hate are such powerful emotions that it’s possible but after you said that devaluation to a narcissist is fuel linked to “feel good” emotions, it makes more sense.

          11. shesaw says:

            Hi Mercy, it has the appearance of being like that, at least. I wish there was more research in general on the point of ‘the pleasure that comes from seeing others suffer’.

      8. mommypino says:

        There were also times that HG didn’t answer my question and all of a sudden K would find my question and post a link to HG’s previous answer. We’re so lucky to have K here to always wanting to help and even give really good feedbacks. Sometimes I remember what HG has said too but I wouldn’t remember which article to find it.

        HG has been so patient with most of my questions though and not all of them are the smartest or the most polite but he still tries to respond courteously. I actually think that he has a patience of a saint and amazing self control. I came across an article where this woman asked S. Vaknin questions only to be insulted. I have never seen HG issue an ad hominem attack on anyone in this blog, even those who were really mean to him. I honestly believe that he strictly abide by a set of rules that keeps his interactions with us in this blog productive and professional. Not wanting to repeat himself is not a big deal to me.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you MP. You will not find any ad hominem attacks by me. There is no point, it is unnecessary and contrary to the aims and purpose of my work. I correct inaccuracies and do so factually and politely. If anybody reads anything further into it, that is their perspective at work and not a reflection of what I have written.

        2. K says:

          Thank you mommypino
          The Tudor Library is vast and it can be overwhelming and, irrespective of personalities, we are all in this together so I will always try to reach out and help whenever I can. I have read that SV can get quite snippy which is counterproductive when you think of it.

          1. Mercy says:

            I wish I had a K to put in my pocket for all of my Tudor Library needs. instead of “Hey Google” I’d have “Hey K”

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It should be ‘Oh K’

          3. Mercy says:

            Haha that might cause some confusion.

          4. K says:

            Ha ha ha…are you ok (Oh K)? No, I am Mercy. Oh K is over there.

            It reminds me of Who’s on First by Abbott & Costello.

          5. Mercy says:

            Hahaha oh k you’re a funny lady. As long as he’s not saying OH K!! while you’re in his pocket. That may not be ok!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, that amused HG.

          7. K says:

            Ha ha ha…that was a riot! Thanks for the laugh! That skit is very funny, I loved it when I was a kid and still do. Laughter is great. People need to laugh more, it is great for mental health.

          8. Mercy says:

            K I couldn’t agree more

          9. Mercy says:

            K I just looked up Who’s on First on YouTube. It never stops being funny! I needed a laugh today

          10. K says:

            Mercy and HG
            Ha ha ha…Echo, Alexa and Hey K or Oh K. Either way, I am on it like white on rice.

        3. Mercy says:

          Mommypino his patience and respect puts him in a higher class than others in my opinion. I don’t like the attacks because he has set a standard and some (not many considering the amount of readers that are here) take advantage of that. The empath in me hates to see people taken advantage of even if that person is perfectly capable of handling his own.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Most kind of you.

      9. mommypino says:

        You’re so welcome HG!

        The name of the blog of the lady that got insulted by Vaknin is Queenbeeing.com and I believe the name of her article is “When Sam Vaknin Gaslighted me on Facebook”. I’m thankful to have this blog where we can ask questions without having to worry of being insulted.

      10. nunya biz says:

        I am reading this with interest about the dopamine and I don’t know anything about it myself. But Mercy, I would guess if someone’s dopamine were to drop off then they would begin to do things instinctively to try to increase it again. In my imagination it would be less effective than the initial phase but still would create the reward of some sort of balancing phenomenon.

        But I was remembering someone that I was drawn to and cared about and never saw do anything negative to anyone, he was protective of people automatically. I always wondered why more people couldn’t be like him, he was kind of special to me because he was what we see toward people from the empath side. He wasn’t boring, he was empathic, and we seem to crave the “not boring” thing. But I remember at some point talking about him to someone and referring to him as a “dopamine addict” jokingly. So this thread has me curious because he did like to do exciting things and was very exuberant but he never got to any drop or devaluation, he always just found something new to be interested in while maintaining his connections to his past.

      11. 2SF says:

        Shesaw, ref. your comment Jan 14, 18:39

        “Narcissists/psychopaths do have 4 or 5 times higher dopamine levels during the start of a realationship compared to ‘normals’.”

        It’s not just narcissists/psychopaths, it’s HSP people in general (I’m an HSP).

        I somewhere read that Narcissists are HSP people ‘gone bad’ and that’s exactly how it always felt for me, dealing with them.

    3. A383 says:

      DebbieWolf – This is excellent.

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        Thank you.
        I felt very strongly to the point where I felt I had to attempt to articulate.
        I appreciate your understanding.

    4. J.G says:

      The way I see it, they’re not really interested in finding the one. For several reasons.
      1 are just looking for fuel.
      2 are fickle and changing
      3 get bored because
      4 familiarity breeds contempt.
      5 are already hooked and have already reached the roof at the top of the positive relationship (have achieved the love and hooking).
      6 is the time to extract the really important negative emotional attention (because this is much more powerful and this shows how much they really love it) They want to see how for the love for them, you consume and how much you can endure until you break. or go crazy.
      7 with it they get Power, control, submission, and makes them grow their EGO. It magnifies it.

      The one are themselves…

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        J G

        Interesting points.

        It fascinates me in the world to find such a completely different mindset in these extremes… To have a name for it now…to have this place which outlines what does and doesn’t go on and what things mean and do not mean.

        And it’s hard to believe how extensive and widespread it all is.

        How it is Hidden in plain sight.

        Thank HGenius for this place and this work.

      2. Getting There says:

        That was an interesting point you brought up. I apologize if I am misunderstanding your point. I may have also misunderstood HG all this time and thus developed a wrong conclusion which I am sharing. The way I have understood HG’s writing is that many are not time sequential with the thoughts as it is more about giving a full insight and removing the “hope” in those of us who believe in “hope” (even that “one in a million chance” type hope I have lived by).

        The way I read this particular writing is that he is trying to show the full picture of physical intimacy and devaluation (thus the language used). It appears to me that narcissists have issues with intimacy but will put those issues aside for the building of this relationship. I think many people, narcissist or not, will find that they compromise on some aspects to please another. If the person becomes an IPPS, thus “the one” for the moment, and when their fuel gets “stale” due to the constant interaction, the narcissist will react with the more innate desire to not be intimate. I believe that there truly is no planning of devaluation from any narcissist, to include the Greaters. While the Greaters plan in many ways, I don’t think they start a relationship saying “I am going to start devaluing this person in 2 months.” The candidate IPSS is an example of why I do not believe it is not planned. That person will not be as likely to experience devaluation if the person doesn’t meet all standards to become the IPPS and remains an IPSS; and the intimacy remains for potentially many years.

        I can see the thought of “hope” for a narcissist if all their IPPS relationships go through similar stages and yet they keep trying. I wonder if it is more about survival versus hoping. The reason I wonder that is that I think narcissists, like many of us, have certain qualities they seek. When a narcissist’s fuel is low, they will go into a relationship with someone who may not meet the qualities as long as fuel is being met. For many of us, on the other hand, we will stay single while continuing to look for someone who meets our desired qualities of a significant other.

        On a somewhat different note, based on my limited ability of understanding a narcissist’s logic, I am confused about narcissists and physical intimacy. If it is used as a way to entrap, control, and to build a type of relationship, then what is the purpose of a one night stand or a grudge f***? “Making love” is not just intercourse, but a narcissist is willing to do all with an IPTS. Why? How much fuel comes to a narcissist if the hand holding is just to establish a connection for one or two times of sex? What control is established if both parties know that there will be no contact again? There has to be more to the physical intimacy that I have not grasped yet.

        1. DebbieWolf says:

          Getting There

          Thank you for your reply… Helpful.
          yes I agree about the one night stand situations that doesn’t make a lot of sense.
          Something yet to figure out.
          Unless it’s just a crash emergency fuel situation and then there’s always the future faking..yes we know it’s a one night stand but and then maybe they come out with things to imply it wouldn’t be..

          But to them it is perhaps an emergency hit if fuel is low.

      3. Getting There says:

        Thank you, DebbieWolf!
        An emergency fuel situation sounds like a good explanation why they would.

        1. K says:

          Getting There
          Sex is used as weapon/tool to bind and extract fuel (positive and negative). Narcissists do not build relationships or connections and there is no compromise or reciprocity; it is all about control. When the fuel from the IPPS becomes stale the narcissist will switch to devaluation/withdrawal (instinct). Because of their position in the fuel matrix, the IPSS’s fuel is less likely to become stale so they usually remain painted white and in seduction.

          A one night stand or grudge fuck with an IPTS is just another avenue to gather fuel and the control lies in the physical act of sex which elicits the emotional response, such as, moans of pleasure/pain or an orgasm.

          It is all about the fuel even if it is a one-off. And a narcissist will make a panic pick if they are desperate for an IPPS.

      4. kel says:

        HG, I was commenting humorously. It’s just that you do point fingers at her downgrading her comment to emotional thinking, instead of acknowledging that you understand why she would think that. You did give the real reason why is because you just don’t have time and you do a remarkable job answering so many and that K is a wonderful resource to assist you with things you’ve answered in the past.

        My boss is also self aware. I think there was a mess that might have come up years ago with his marriage and his wife’s brothers coming into town over it, that probably brought it up.

        You’re amazing answering all you do, and an incredible opportunity for all of us. I just wanted to point out, and you know this too, that you’re never going to be wrong, and we’re never going to win a debate with you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Noted that you are commenting humorously, thank you for the clarification.

          I did not downgrade DW’s comment to emotional thinking, I attributed it to it – I did not ascribe any criticism to that thinking, I explained what it was and how it is inaccurate.

          Thank you for your kind compliments.

        2. K says:

          Thank you kel!

      5. Getting There says:

        Thank you for the clarification on all points!!
        I apologize about “building a relationship;” I should have put that in quotes to show that it was a perception but not reality. I understand that I am probably wrong in my belief that a narcissist does believe that is what they are doing and trying to do, without fully understanding that that is not what they are able to do.
        When I used “compromised” I meant more of being willing to accept something one normally wouldn’t versus the definition of coming to a mutual agreement. An extreme example, for me, that I was thinking about when I wrote my initial comment, was cursing. I used to curse a lot; sometimes it was therapeutic. The last relationship I was in, he didn’t like cursing or being around cursing. I made the choice to stop cursing altogether (around him or not), which I didn’t do for others who I knew hated cursing.
        I do think narcissists can choose to compromise – when it fits their facade and/or can be something to hold against a person later. That is not true compromise; I do understand. Sorry for the wrong message. Please know that I don’t disagree with you. I do understand your point.

        Thank you for your explanation of what a narcissist gets from an IPTS! That helps a lot!

        1. K says:

          You are welcome Getting There
          You don’t have to agree with me or apologize. You are doing perfectly fine and you are working things out in your own way. No worries.

          You are not wrong at all in your belief that narcissists think they are in a relationship and that it is “true love” that they feel. They think they are capable of “true love” but they are not. When you have a chance read the thread on Bridging the Gap, I think you will like it. HG explains their mindset very well re: love.

          You and I are capable of compromise, however, it is solely one-sided. We do all the compromising, not them. And narcissists will “compromise” when it comes to facade maintenance and that is called manipulation and it is instinctive and you are correct in stating that it will be used against an individual later, usually during devaluation.

          One-offs are all about the fuel (triangulation).

          Like you, I love to curse. It feels so good and I hope you are back at it.

        2. K says:

          Getting There
          Thank you for your feedback and you are correct to state that it is a relationship and you are very well aware that it isn’t “real” and that is all that matters. Understanding the reality of the dynamic allows the logical thinking to replace our emotional thinking, which ultimately sets us free.

      6. Getting There says:

        Sorry, K, that should have read “the last ‘relationship’ I was in…” To say it was a real relationship would have made me feel better if true but not it is not true.
        Again, thank you for your post!

        1. K says:

          You are welcome Getting There
          And you don’t have to apologize. We think of our entanglements as relationships or friendships which encompasses emotional connections and reciprocity. The narcissist attaches us to him and we become his/her extension and we are there to supply her with fuel, character traits and residual benefits. It is a one-sided game based on wholesale exploitation.

      7. Getting There says:

        K, thank you!

        Thank you for being both supportive and patient on this blog!

      8. Getting There says:


        I just read your response to my long response. Thank you! You are correct that the compromise ultimately is for us to make.

        Thank you for pointing me toward that thread! I am about to comment there as it hits upon something I almost wrote here last night.

        The reality that it wasn’t real hurts. Thankfully he has given me the space to work through it (still in the process) and so I would like to think I will be in full logic mode if there is ever any kind of connection again.

        Haha. Lately, when I get very very angry, I will drop a word or two, but that is not often. I have found myself not as comfortable cussing anymore. Maybe it is a good thing with a child. Haha

        Thank you again!

        1. K says:

          You are welcome Getting There
          Absolutely. Once we are drawn into their reality and in situ, we make all the concessions. The only time we have any say is during seduction and, even then, we really don’t. The narcissist makes it seem like we do, although pleasant, we are still being manipulated.

          That thread is like a reality slap, as much as we want it to be real, it isn’t and that hurts. It takes time to work through it and this is a great place to do that and eventually the logic will take hold. Keep reading.

          When you are child-free, let it rip. I have an excellent potty mouth. And feel free to disagree with me or anyone else on the blog. Be fearless and express your opinions and don’t apologize for them either. Your thoughts may influence another reader to “see” differently. It is all about perspective.

    5. K says:

      I found this comment very helpful.

      HG Tudor
      AUGUST 5, 2018 AT 13:48
      No because the emotional thinking of infatuation overrides the logic of past failures.


      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed. I was loathe to repeat myself.

        1. K says:

          I understand completely.

        2. DebbieWolf says:


          “Indeed. I was loathe to repeat myself.”


          Not everybody has read everything, whether they are new or not.

          You are the one running a blog.
          You are the one encouraging people to engage with you.
          You are the one who has written that you will answer every question.

          Further, it is a little off-pat to believe that you’re one word remark of “incorrect” covers completely my original and comprehensive enquiry, and then to wait for others to post answers… And simply direct me to K.

          I am at a loss as to why you didn’t refer me to something in the first instance instead of telling everybody else how you loathe to repeat yourself.

          To be fair you do repeat yourself, regularly.

          Lesson here then is to make sure that you have read everything because all the answers are already there so don’t bother asking?

          I completely understand if it’s in the work it is best to try to find it first… I have always advocated such a thing.
          I’ve always been polite.
          I am not privy to your personal timetable and I am not to know which questions you will and will not have time to answer.

          Further I am busy myself, I don’t approach you so that I can waste my time. It is a given that we are all busy.

          I once asked.. not long ago.. if you being busy and with your travelling it would affect the blog and you said no.

          I’d like to point something out to you
          I wasn”t asking you to repeat anything.
          I raised reasonable points and asked valid questions of the host, you, of this blog.

          I didn’t know the answers.
          I wouldn’t waste my time asking things are raising issues if I did.

          I had a genuine enquiry and raise genuine points and thoughts.. it’s your blog you are the writer and I tried to engage with you.
          you are the one who States you answer every question.
          You should take that’s sweeping statement down if it’s still up there..
          I do understand that you are very busy. I get it.

          I am disappointed that you didn’t say to me that you’ve written about this elsewhere and referred me… Yes you told me to see Ks point after you deflected it and ignored it until then.

          Instead you wrote “incorrect” a one word answer that didn’t match anything I had asked specifically and then said to others how you don’t have the time and how you are loathe to repeat yourself..
          and much later on referred me to K.

          I find it a bit offensive.. that you would say to other people how are you loathe to repeat yourself as if what I had originally asked you was some kind of yawning event.

          I am very grateful to all those who have helped me to understand.

          I do expect to be ignored now by you HG based on me writing this..
          or if replied to at all.. in a horrible fashion since you are enjoying such sensational fuel this weekend, you will need the contrast… Albeit an insignificant drop of fuel of course here…. Which I additionally decided to dilute.

          Knock yourself out.


          Bloody hell HG.
          Thanks a lot.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Your response is a useful example of emotional thinking. I am going to provide a factual response, which is free from any emotional thinking. You need to read this response free from your own emotional thinking, which, you may struggle with. My response is entirely fact-based and you must avoid interpreting it as an ‘attack’ or ‘criticism’ of you.

            1. I know from your previous posts and correspondence to me that you allow your ET to govern you. This causes you to see ‘attacks’ when they are not there. This causes you to perceive that you are being given short shrift or being criticised when you are not.
            2. There are over 224 000 comments on this blog. Who is the single highest commenter? Me. I read the comments, answer as many as I can and often face the same questions being asked over and over again and this results in me repeating answers. I do not expect people to read everything HOWEVER nor should people expect me to answer everything because

            a. I do not have the time (I have a personal and professional life, I write, I have consultations, general e-mail queries, comments to moderate here on other platforms and new content to address).
            b. I have provided answers in many of my books – note my observations to 2SF in that regard
            c. I have answered people previously.

            Rather than be defensive and think my failure to answer is a snub (that is ET) logic would explain the reason for the lack of answer or substantive answer will be a,b and/or c.

            3. Furthermore, you have erroneously regarded my response (and erroneously anticipated that this response) was done (will be done) to devalue you in order to contrast with the positive fuel I have received. This is incorrect because

            a. My response was not a devaluation – that is patently clear on the face of it;

            b. This response is not a devaluation – that is patently clear on the face of it;
            c. I have no need to create a contrast with you (any such contrast occurs in my private life)
            d. You are a tertiary source therefore there is no point creating a contrast
            e. You are a reader and I do not devalue my readers because there is no point in doing so and every point in maintaining a constructive place.

            I was honest. I am loathe to repeat myself. Would you rather I lie and say ‘oh i positively love repeating myself’ (even when such a comment would be clearly incorrect and a lie based on the reality of what I have written above).

            Just because you do not receive an answer or a full answer does not equate to devaluing behaviour. Just because I express honesty with regard to part of the basis of why I did not expand should not be regarded as offensive.

            I also find your passive aggressive comment of ‘I expect to be ignored’ ill-mannered. I do not ignore people. If I had the time I would answer every query as fully as I can because I pride myself on accuracy and being the best source for information. Your passive aggressive comment actually did deserve me ignoring you (there’s some more honesty) however I have replied to aid your understanding and that of readers as to the dynamic.

            I will finish by repeating that this is a response designed to correct your repeated inaccurate comments in your own message – I understand the basis for your inacurracies but do not judge them, I merely correct them.

      2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Thank you for the direction oh mighty of memory K…

        HG, I do understand that you encounter the same questions from commenters and I commend your patience.
        You must be grateful that K and others assist you with the repetitive questions.
        I certainly am! Tappi T x

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. K says:

          My Pleasure Tappi Tikarrass!
          Ha ha ha…and thanks for the compliment.

      3. kel says:

        Lol HG, one cannot forget that you are a narcissist! I can remember plenty of times being in my narc boss office with him going on and on like your lengthy response to DebbieWolf over something legitimate I put up to him. There’s just no winning.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Remember however I am self-aware and certain rules regulate this forum.

          Interestingly, you fail to comment or acknowledge on the substance of what I have written (i.e. do you accept its logical force) and instead refer to the fact I am a narcissist (which of course is true but not relevant to the point being made) and also inferring a lack of legitimacy to my response because I have spent time providing detail (by comparing it to the response of your narc boss – who probably was engaging in deflection and word salad).

    6. Boofhead says:

      I like you, Debbie Wolf. I’ll let you do the talking…. and no apologies needed. 😉

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        Haha .Thanks.
        That’s a nice thing to say.
        I think I have probably said too much by now.🤐

        Peace ✌️

    7. Michelle says:

      My take on the narcissist’s emotional thinking is that they are looking for a missing piece from their childhood. Their parents loved them only conditionally in many cases, based on their performance. So unconditional love is not an experience they have had. There is not really any such thing as unconditional love in adult relationships. Adults always have the option to leave their partner, to make demands in a relationship, to give ultimatums, or to ask for concessions. These are not things that a parent does to a child. So if a narcissist is really looking for the parent figure that they never had, they will always be disappointed because adult relationships simply can’t meet this need. A romantic relationship will just end up being a replay of an earlier scenario, where the other partner can make the relationship conditional on the narcissist’s performance, and the narcissist has decided never to be placed in that situation ever again. Only perfect unconditional love will do. They may believe someone capable of this in the beginning, but as time goes on and it becomes apparent that they will not get unconditional love from yet another romantic partner, the relationship fails. The narcissist never sees that it is his expectations that are amiss, because his expectations are aligned with an immature, developmentally hampered emotional self. He is simply looking for what he needs. He does not see that it is an inappropriate thing to ask from a romantic partner, hence the repetition and futility of the narcissist’s situation. If the narcissist could meet the unmet childhood need in therapy, he would stop running in circles in this way and enter a romantic relationship with realistic expectations.

  14. J.G says:

    Hello, H.G. Tudor.
    You leave me speechless Tudor.
    Total sacrifice for the fuel. Instead of enjoying the blessings that are offered, you go and at the end lost interest and loss of erection.
    It has to be much more important for you, the fuel with difference, to stop having intimacy with your main source. Although with it you generate fuel…
    I tend to think, that we the Ipps really only interest you and we are good, for the contribution of Fuel, like Swiss cows.
    Your sexual tastes can even be totally antagonistic. And you endure only and exclusively for the emotional attention. Searching and triangulating with people who really awaken your sexuality or carry you a little more fuel. Obtaining with it, double ration of fuel. So that one if you can have two…
    This post brings back memories.
    My narcissist. always held my hand when we went out to the disco. I did it with such insistence and interest. that it transported you or another reality. It really made you find yourself in the cloud. Among the crowd, his warm hand held me so tightly and seductively and his interest in me seemed so patent and genuine that you would never expect what would come next. This only lasted a few seconds, but it was unbelievable. If you think about it now coldly, he would lead me like veal to the slaughterhouse in the blink of an eye, slit my throat in the center of the dance floor.triangulate me in the center of the dance floor. The kisses he didn’t give me, I found other lips other than my own, in the middle of the dance floor. While it sounded
    BLOOD IN THE DANCE TRACK And there I was, portrayed between a mixture of Mona-lisa and Edvard Munch’s “Deaf and Dry” Scream.
    As fast as I climbed HEAVEN, I dropped to HELL in 5 seconds…
    He was truly QUICK in many things.
    If I told you Tudorsito….

  15. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    “You are a child to me, someone who knows no better and has to be guided by me.”

    I hate the word “trigger” and rarely use it but this was a total trigger.
    Gives new meaning to the terms of endearment I used to get, most commonly “kiddo”. But also “kid”, “my child”, “my child of the corn” and “darling girl”.

    And I was 5 1/2 years OLDER. 😳

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi gabs ….ughhh yes i could see how condescending those nicks would be. I find tgis behaviour passive aggressive in nature. As if being laughed at or belittled but to confront it youd be made to look too sensitive or youre imagining things or you misinterpreted it.

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Yeah pretty much.

        From what I could tell he uses the “kiddo” term for others too, not just me.

        Oh and I was always told to “calm down” too.

  16. NarcsIntrigueMe says:

    One thing that has confused me greatly, is I make it well known how easy it is to manipulate me; yet I’ve yet to meet a narcissist that takes advantage of it.

    I’m addicted to cuddles/being touched. Usually I end a relationship if my needs to be touched aren’t being met.

    One narcisst successfully got her girlfriend to provide all my physical intimacy needs, while she reaped all the benefits. But as soon as she had her girlfriend ghost me, I pretty quickly found another narcisst that was on a mission to replace the incumbent. (I spoil the shit out of them if my needs are met, with no expectations).

    Once old narcisst was outed by new one, she stopped providing cuddles and expected me to continue spoiling her I guess. Devalue started and I escaped. No time for that shit.

    All I want is cuddles. I tell them this every time. None seem to understand that it really is that simple. Provide me with cuddles, yourself or from another, and I’ll give you anything without expectations.

    Take them away, and I’ll find someone else to provide them and give all my resources to.

    What is your interpretation HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Cuddles are intimacy which we abhor. Furthermore, although you are endeavouring to be compliant and pleasant, your stance is likely to be construed as control (from our perspective) and since we must not be controlled we will either manipulate to assert control or withdraw.

      1. windstorm says:

        That sure fits with my experience. Directly telling any of my narcissists what I want has always been a certain way never to get it.

      2. nunya biz says:

        Yeah this is part of the frustrating experience. “All I need is x,y,z”, it’s totally reasonable needs fulfillment, realistic, basic stuff. Healthy, normal. I enjoy giving as much as getting easily. I looove giving. I get frustrated when my hands are tied out of doing it.

        Until I ask myself why I manage to get upturned by asking someone for that flow who doesn’t find it so easy as I imagine or feel. That’s where I want to focus right now.
        Probably something to look at NIM.
        The main thing I’ve been teaching myself is not to argue. You should know physical intimacy is a reasonable need. I have to know that a direct rejection of a reasonable need should cause suspicion.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Nunya Biz
          Love your last line.

      3. nunya biz says:

        Thanks, NA, work in progress. I find I can detect most things early enough, still hurts but saves some things. My biggest fear is still those things I can’t resist and losing track. Temptations are bad enough. Or maybe my worst fear is not having irresistible things : p
        What’s that saying?
        Funny, not funny

        Eh I swear I knew this beautiful thing once. It wasn’t even a trick. I don’t know what’s worse.

  17. mouth full of rocks says:

    hg…Ive done the blocking and the no contact, but ex NARC MID RANGE told daughter so i could hear, ” i dont love you more thqn i hate your mother” WTF…i havent said one unkind word to this shitty man and all i get is nasty. why?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are painted black but you will not always know the reason why that is because you do not look at the world in the same way as he does.

  18. Kellie Mccoey says:

    I like the top of the head kiss

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