The Narcissist Manipulates : Bringing Up The Past



It is an essential method of maintaining our control over you by bringing up the past. We are always able to recall some past wrong which you have committed or some particular transgression which we will use to suit our current purposes. Being able to bring up the past allows us to deflect your attacks against us, deny the validity of what you are saying and instead enables us to put you under scrutiny. We have a formidable capability for remembering what has happened before. It is as if each event in our lives together has been recorded in my mind’s eye and in a moment I can locate the exact memory, circumstances and events in order to support my position and demolish yours. The pin point accuracy by which I can dredge something up which happened months or even years ago is quite staggering. It is all the more amazing because we always seem to forget about events which you try and rely on. Mind you, that is because you have such a tendency to make things up haven’t you? It is quite a terrible habit that you have, lying in order to try and make me look bad or feel worse. It is not something you would find me doing. Absolutely not.

You abide by the concept of that once something has been put to bed that is the end of the matter. It is done. It is concluded. It is finished. We do not subscribe to that point of view. In fact, anything that has happened between us, which we need to resurrect in order to advance our case against you, is never concluded. It may be buried, but it is never buried dead. All the discussions, happenings and events, even though they may have been discussed, dissected and mulled over to an extraordinary degree many moons ago, are ready to be brought back to life in the click of a finger and thumb. That argument about the one time in the last six months when you actually went out with your friends (although that of course was not without a monumental battle beforehand) began when you returned five minutes later than when you said you would return. The discussion rumbled on late into the night until finally tired and fed-up you conceded defeat, apologised and sloped off to bed. All delight from your enjoyable evening having evaporated as a consequence of our ranting and raging. You knew it had been done to death. There was not really anything to argue about, not that that stopped us going round and round in circles in order to frustrate you. This argument was complete and there was no need for it to be mentioned again. Except there was. You organised to go and see a show with your friends. It had been in the diary for at least eight weeks and you headed away looking forward to enjoying it. It was one of your favourites, one you had loved since you were a little girl. You knew that we were not pleased, you could see it in the frozen smile you gave when we came out to say hello to your friends. Not of course that we were interested in being polite to your friends as they waited in the car. No, we wanted to see who was going. Checking up to see if your story was true. We kissed you and wished you a delightful evening although you knew underneath we would be raging that we had to make our own meal and we were left alone for the evening.

The show was magnificent and your friends excellent company but the traffic leaving the venue was heavy and you returned home half an hour later than you had estimated. Note it was an estimate, not a guaranteed time by which you would return, not that this fact would make any difference to us. You sent us a text message (you did not want the embarrassment of a horrible telephone call as you sat in your friend’s car) advising of the delay and why it was. You received no response. That told you everything you needed to know. You entered the house and found us waiting, arms crossed and eyebrows raised.

“What time do you call this?” The accusation is launched. There is no hello, no asking how the show went or whether you enjoyed the evening.

“Sorry. The traffic was bad. Did you get my text?”

“Yes but that is not the point. You are late again. You do this on purpose don’t you?”

“What do you mean again?” you respond, a knee-jerk reaction to the unfair accusation but as soon as the last word has left your mouth you know what is coming. You can almost hear the vault door being opened and the relevant deposit box being selected, the tiny key being inserted and turned.

“You were late the last time you went out.”

“That was six months ago.”

“It was five actually. It was March. It doesn’t matter if it was yesterday or yesteryear, you are late and you said you would not be. You lied.”

“I lied. Oh come on, you come in late every week. Either from the bar or some work meeting and I never complain.”

“Yes you do. You complained last Friday and I told you that I had to meet those clients in the bar.It was a business meeting.”

“You didn’t tell me anything of the sort. I rang you six times to find out where you were.”

“It was eight times actually and I did not answer because I was busy with the clients. As I told you. I remember distinctly explaining that to you.”

“You didn’t. You really didn’t. Look, this is the first time I have been out in an age, I am home now, let me tell you about the show.”

“No. You are not distracting me with tales about songs and dance routines. I am sick of your disrespecting me in this fashion. You always come back late when you are with those harpies.”

“Why say that?” you ask hurt by the remark about your friends.

“Because they are a bad influence on you. They got you drunk that time. Do you remember? You threw up in the sink when you got in and then on the floor.”

“No I didn’t, that was you!”

“Don’t try and twist things around. I remember distinctly seeing you stagger through the door because I was sat in that chair watching the news.”

“You were asleep upstairs and I was not drunk. I don’t get drunk.”

“Oh really, I can remember at least five occasions when you have come home rat-arsed, banging into the walls and crawling up the stairs. There was that time you went with Sandra to that new bar, Apartment it was called.”

“What are you going on about. No I didn’t.”

“Yes you did. Are you calling me a liar? Remember, I have a far better memory than you, yours is obviously addled by all the drinking that you do.”

And on it goes. Past misdemeanours both real and imagined are brought up and levelled against you. Bringing up the past is good for all occasions. If you accuse us of flirting with someone, we will remind you of your brazen behaviour with our brother. If you complain because we have not taken the rubbish out, we will remind you how you forgot to pick up our drying cleaning on three separate occasions. Accuse us of over-spending and we will revisit your last three shopping trips and reel off every item that you purchased. The confidence with which we describe these past events has you bewildered and at times you are unable to recall whether we are actually correct or whether we are making it up. You often think that we are making things up but the conviction we demonstrate has you doubting your own recall. This technique is used by us frequently. It moves the subject of the argument on to you, frustrates, angers and upsets you so that you provide us with and has you often apologising so that we know we have landed a blow and laid down a marker. Reminding you of the past, real or imagined is something we do frequently. What is behind using this manipulative technique to acquire fuel and control? Simple. We bring up the past because we are intimidated by what is happening in the present.

74 thoughts on “The Narcissist Manipulates : Bringing Up The Past

  1. Carl says:

    Scariest part of this info is the people who are NOT psychologists diagnosing people and family members around them designating them as a narc and then treating that person badly or ignoring them for long periods of time.
    Sounds pretty narcissistic to me. A narc can use this info as a confirmation bias for their behavior.

  2. WhoCares says:


    Very wise and straight-forward words to Kate.

    One thing that I’ve come to learn is that if there are narcissists in the family – nothing ever will be fully uncovered. It is only the empaths who care about revealing the ‘truth.’

    And like Kate, I have empathic relatives that have died who could answer some questions for me…but why? It is enough to know what I know here, apply it to my family, and realize hown it all makes sense.

    I haven’t even reached out to family who, I believe, are empathetic…because it would cause me unnecessary stress to explain what has happened…I’m exhausted by having to talk to people regarding my narcs…except for here. Because people get it.

    But the family dynamics all makes sense for me…I think the empaths are the ‘glue’ that holds families together – once they’re mostly gone; families fall apart or get more dysfunctional because the narcs can’t stand each other. So really the only ones fighting for anything (for the truth to come out) would be empaths – and as you’ve expressed to Kate – (and I agree) it’s not a battle worth engaging.

  3. Kate says:

    At this past Christmas dinner, I had my sister and son mocking me for leaving them all five and half years ago and my problems that arose from that. On Christmas Day! I told them all how much I hate this family and that my actions were caused by them and their mistreatment of me. More laughter from them. I left the table and later my sister came to talk to me which led to more arguing. No one else tried. My son left without speaking to me. There is no peace in this family.

    I regret coming back here and have continuously tried to address our family’s problems, with each of them in turn, and it is going nowhere. People deny their actions, do not apologize and then make up lies about me and things that I never did instead.

    I would like to go GOSO again, but problems follow a person. Then what?

    I do not see any hope for this and no one wants to “get involved” to straighten out my sister’s misperceptions (lies) of our behavior as children. My parents know the truth but will not tell her.

    No one is willing to verify my son’s behaviors that have persisted for about 14 years.

    If no one else is willing to do the work to fix it, we will all die divided.

    Literally, people have died and now we can no longer speak. I have been able to resolve issues with those who have passed, but this is feeling hopeless. What do I do with these people? I don’t want us to die with this…

    1. windstorm says:

      No one can make another understand if that person’s mind is not open. I doubt your sister can ever understand how you see things. Maybe not your son, either.

      I would suggest letting go of trying to change anyone’s opinion. Be yourself and ignore what other family members think. If you can’t do that when you’re in the presence of these family members – stay away from them.

      I have family that feels everything about me is wrong and the past was not like I remember it. It is hopeless for me to change their minds and I don’t waste effort trying. It’s hard and painful for me when I have to be around them, but I acknowledge that I can no more change them to my way of thinking than they can change me to theirs.

    2. Kate says:

      Thank you, Windstorm and WhoCares for your support!

      I find this interesting… When I got the opportunity to speak with my sister one-on-one a few months ago, I found out what she claims to believe about me and why she does not want to be my friend (that I used to punch her all of the time – my parents said that never happened – and that the entire family was afraid of me and “walking on eggshells” – again a shocked and perplexed expression from each of my parents who I questioned separately).

      My initial reaction was to apologize and tell her that I do no remember doing those things, then called her the next day and told her that I was rescinding my apology because I had not done those things and that she was the one who owed me an apology for accusations that are baseless and the only other people who were witnesses say that these things never happened.

      I would like to know who she may have told these lies to and smeared me to them. I now know what is most precious to HER – her reputation. How would she like it if it was smeared as she may have done to me?? Hmmm.

      She also claims that when we opened Christmas presents that I would grab hers from her (also not true). On Christmas this year, I found out that she does not want to spend time with me because I don’t have any money. I told her that time costs nothing. Weird, weird, weird.

      Anyway, a few months ago, I got out all of the family albums that no one has looked at for years. No one looks scared of me. My sister and I are sitting right next to each other on Christmas mornings, opening gifts. My hands are to myself. I am just watching her. But she is the guarded one in some pictures, not wanting to share the sight of her gift with me. Weird. Also, a telling picture of her as a very young child in a playpen with our cousin who is exactly her age – my sister is holding a toy high above her head and looking into the camera victoriously while my cousin is crying in distress. This is what I remember – her reluctance to share.

      It is true – a picture says a thousand words. I have proof of the truth. This is a fun little rhyme.

      But can they handle the truth?? (I need Jack Nicholson for that line)..

    3. Kate says:

      Hi HG,

      Apologies to you and your bloggers for clogging up your comment section! I hope you don’t mind. Just wanted to add one more for any help you can offer..

      Three weeks after Christmas – to the day – my sister got the news that it is time to schedule surgery to fix her defective heart (literally).

      It will be interesting to see if she chooses to address these issues with me before the surgeon stops her heart.

  4. Christopher Jackson says:

    Shit…another great one hg…I remember hearing arguments like this one well close enough for me to recall love reading these type of things and in an empaths mind we get so wound up on trying to prove ourselves we forget what is really going on in front of us you stated in a previous video “Why the arguments are never resolved”…”There can be no change”….GOSO would be one that comes to mind very good work hg keep them coming.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome CJ.

  5. Sarah says:

    HG I seek your guidance…
    If your IPPS is in devaluation, surely you will be pleased if they go out with their friends? It leaves you with plenty of time to get up to no good, does it not?
    Is your reaction just theatrical or genuine because you feel challenged by the IPPS going out on their own?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If in devaluation, we want the negative fuel. If the IPPS goes out, they are not going to be giving us negative fuel, therefore their attendance with their friends is not wanted.

      1. Sarah says:

        Thanking you HG.
        Reinforcement of the importance of negative fuel provision within the fuel matrix.
        This is a perfect example of a dot I would never have connected without your expertise. I can’t imagine what it must be like to desire the company of your partner to fulfil this function.
        Your kind really do bait the hook well for themselves.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Alma Jazzmin says:

        Well Mr. Tudor, if you both say you saw a car and you both label an object as a car is because, at least, you are following a convention: a vehicle moving on wheels (at least to this point=, with an engine and seats. You can percieve the car´s color, seats, speed… etc., differently but a car would still be regarded as a car because that is the language convention, otherwise we could not understand eachother. The same can be say about love. Love can be perceived in many ways, but all the emotions attached to its concept are regarded as positive and pleasant. That´s why it is illogical to say that you love someone while you are hurting that person.
        I would say that the problem with narcisists is that they are unaware -because of the nature of the disorder- of the whole definition of the emotions. Their conceptualization of a feeling stops at a certain level (the cognitive one). This lack of emotions are not regarded as the norm for the majority of the population -for the narcisist, instead, that´s the normality because there is not another reality beyond our own experience- and thus it is categorized as insane (not healthy). Regardless of our mental conditions (being more or less healthy), I think we all agree here that narcisism is harmful for those who are not narcisists and therefore unhealthy, in other words, insane.

  6. Leslie says:

    This was the point at which I came to the conclusion he was in fact insane.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The point is, it is not insanity.

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Yes, it is.

        It is the definition of insanity – serious mental illness, or extreme irrationality.
        (I actually looked it up)

        ..the warped perception of reality..

        And then, you want us to join your mad world.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No it is not.

          There is no such thing as reality. There is merely a majority view and anybody whose view falls outside of that majority view is deemed ‘insane’. Their view is their view of their reality, they do not make it up. Would you tell the reader who has synaesthesia (she commented a little while ago) that the fact she sees colour when she hears a sound that she is insane? No, she sees in a different way to the majority, but that is her reality – as you describe it, it is a warped perception of your reality, but on what authority do you maintain YOUR reality is THE reality – you cannot.

          Should I label the victim’s behaviour insane because they perceive a reality where they keep engaging with someone who is hurting them, yet they stay? They see they are being abused but they ascribe it to somethings governed by their own perception. If I was being dismissive, I would state that any victim who keeps wanting to be with a person who hurts them, has no consideration for their feelings, damages their self-worth etc – that is insane behaviour. The victim KNOWS they are being hurt but stays?! What a nutcase! The narcissist (lesser) does not even see what he does as hurtful or wrong so carries on doing it – he has less insight than a victim, therefore who is the more ‘insane’? The Mid-Ranger knows he hurts but his narcissism tells him it is justified, thus he knows now better – he has less insight than the victim – therefore, who is the more insane? The Greater knows he hurts people, but revels in doing so and there is no downside to him, he has insight but it works for him, he is not left crying, hurting, stripped of home, money and dignity. The victim may well have been but stays in such a situation – who is the more ‘insane’?

          It is very easy to throw the label of insanity around – it is misplaced and unhelpful.

          To label such behaviours as those of our kind as insane is unhelpful. Instead, one should recognise what those behaviours are, realise that those behaviours are contrary to your well-being for a variety of reasons and do not engage with them by going GOSO.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I have been reading this exchange with interest and have previously (and in some cases still) subscribed to points on both sides. I do want to say that HG’s response here though about the perception of insanity resonates with me hugely because as a child and young adult witnessing the dynamic, I labelled them both as insane, but honestly I believed my mother to be more insane than StepNarc. I thought he was naturally nasty and cruel but that she was not, so she must be more insane to accept it. Not a popular answer but the truth as an observer, and one that the parents of children involved may not have considered.

          2. WhoCares says:


            “Not a popular answer but the truth as an observer, and one that the parents of children involved may not have considered.”

            I also read the exchange between NE and HG with interest. But reading your comment, NA, (sharing from the perspective of a child) helps me clarify how I feel about it as a parent…

            Initially, I ended things with my ex and sought help to figure out what was wrong with *him*. Also, I had to understand the *HOW* it all happened – because I knew (once I was out) that there was no way in hell I was going to go though something like that ever again. How is it that a reasonably aware, intelligent person like myself (who’s been mostly strong, independent, highly functioning) finds herself so far down the road of crazy…So, at the same time, it’s really important to me to understand what the hell is wrong with me that I let things go so far (with a child involved), or how I contributed…because, definitely, from a certain perspective one could say I was crazy to endure what I did. Until I could recognize a repeating pattern…

            But the difference is I have remorse, I feel my own accountability and I can change as a result.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            That was not intended to cause guilt. It was just the honest observation of a (young) person looking on at that time. I know different now. I think at the time of abuse the target is so overwhelmed with being IN it that they can’t look AT it as others might. That was just a nudge for those who may still be involved and with children, and experience problems with those children (both at the time of abuse after). I hear many people say they are trying to work it out (the relationship) and stay because of the children. It sounds noble, but is usually far from the case that those children will benefit. Children might even act out at the dissolve of the relationship (my sister shocked me by saying she would go with StepNarc) but that is because they fear what they don’t know (just as the target does), but leaving abuse ultimately shows the children that you made them the priority, demonstrates strength in adversity, raises the self esteem that will serve them well in future, and most importantly increases the likelihood that your children will come to appreciate it when they are old enough to understand your intention for them and that they remain involved with you.

          4. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for your reply. You didn’t cause feelings of guilt; but I have guilt nonetheless.
            I chose to be forthright in speaking about it because this is such a difficult topic, and I agree it may help other parents who are struggling. I have more to say but I’m traveling at the moment and can’t compose my thoughts.

          5. WhoCares says:


            I absolutely hear what you’re trying to convey and I second your ‘nudge.’

            “I hear many people say they are trying to work it out (the relationship) and stay because of the children. It sounds noble, but is usually far from the case that those children will benefit. ”

            I also acknowledge how difficult and distressing it is to leave – especially with children.

            So while I’m addressing this you NA, as I was writing, my post got longer and I more generalized than I first anticipated…

            I can certainly understand your perspective as a child (and now as an adult) looking on and – perhaps – having more anger at your mother for putting up with the abuse and not protecting you and your siblings. And having less anger and resentment towards towards StepNarc who was actually doling out the abuse. And the anger directed at your mother is justified – it was her job to protect you – and then you stepped up to protect your siblings – something that should not have fallen on your shoulders.

            As a parent, myself – and now post-escapee – I can see how a mother, or father,  would struggle within the relationship over what they feel is best for their child ( I’m not excusing what was *clearly* a dangerous situation in your childhood).

            Part of my belief was that a child’s best interest and health is in having two parents and I never ever wanted to be a single parent. But if abuse becomes part of the dynamic – well then, that changes everything when it comes to what is in the child’s best interest. (Part of what made my situation foggy is because of the lack of what I would call ‘overt’ abuse – because, of course, narcissistic abuse is often not obvious to us – for all kinds of reasons.)

            But for a parent, at some point when your insight becomes clearer, you have to make the choice about what truly is best for your child. (And parents who are reading this blog noe have insight to weigh that decision.) Sometimes it comes down to finances and having a roof over your head vs. the possibility that your child could get physically hurt and you would not be able to do anything about it.

            The cost of the damage of abuse to my child or me outweighed any financial or housing benefits. I could really see how it had all become a downward slide (and genuinely began fearing for the physical safety of my child) – so I jumped off the slide…with a child in tow.

            I feel guilt over what I nearly put my child through. I feel guilt over becoming involved with a narcissist and bringing a child into that dynamic. I also feel guilt over the dissolution of our family and the resulting transition and residual stress that has been the aftermath. (Although, naturally, there has been much good  as a result since we are free of the stress of the crazy-making and in a supportive environment.)

            However, I would have much more significant guilt if I had remained and something happened to my child because I didn’t protect him and because I didn’t protect myself (emotionally, cognitively and physically) in order to be there for him.

            It’s a long, challenging road – and I don’t envy anyone who is standing way back at the crossroads…but now I would never give up the sense of clarity – the peace of mind – moving forward and the knowledge that whatever happens now I’ve done my best to set that situation right. And moving forward I can make better choices for my child and ultimately he is the only one I’m truly accountable to.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            To put it a different way……
            If you are still in a relationship with a narc and have children and your boat (marriage) is capsizing, you can’t save everyone. If you can only save one who would that be? The narc (relationship) or your children (future). That should be your answer.

            P.S Trust me that while you feel bad about making the choice to leave him behind, that when you arrive on shore, that fucker will already be there assisting some buxom blonde in a bikini while telling her that you kept pushing him under.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I would save myself, naturally. Twice.

          8. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! Yes, like cats, narcs always land on their feet.

          9. Mercy says:

            NarcAngel, I understand what you are saying and think its a reasonable observation. I often think who’s worse off, the emapth that knows she’s/he’s being mind fucked or the mind fucker?

            Can I ask if you have more anger toward your mother than StepNarc? Do you see your mother as a victim?

          10. windstorm says:

            Wow! I totally agree with this, HG. Insanity is an artificial concept. In any culture, the majority determines what is sane and insane.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Exactly my point.

      2. Goodness Hg Did I hit a sore spot?

        *bows head to your perceived superiority.

        For someone who pleads for us to follow our logic, I am fascinated that you revert to making a comparison, rather than acknowledge or offer your own definition of insanity.

        I did not mean to insult or call names by finding the narcisissistic dynamic a representation of insanity – which I maintain. I did not address whether the victim is likewise insane – perhaps.. Interpreting someone who abuses as loving.. and all the manipulation, could be an exampkle of extreme irrationality. . but that is that person’s reality; and as you pointed out, that is subject to each person’s perception.

        A different perception however, is not the definition of insanity I offered – extreme irrationality or serious mental illness – neither describe synesthesia.

        Returning to an abuser is an unhealthy decision, if we are logical.
        Is it serious mental illness? Not for me to judge. Extreme irrationality? Again, I guess I not for me to judge, and so, agreeing with the reader who found her ex insane, I judged.. Perhaps you then cannot judge that it was not the case, as it is not your place to judge either.

        You object to narcissism being described as insanity, because it is your normal – is that it?
        But would you concede it is a representation of extreme irrationality?
        I would.

        And the concept of GOSO does not seem fair, nor realistic. Narcissists are humans.. we cannot simply avoid contact with a part of the population… Now, in the relationship category; I understand your advice.. I just.. I guess my own insanity (extreme irrationality) or as you call it, emotional thinking, clouds my rational thinking.

        Thank you for sharing your perspective, Hg.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, not a sore spot, I corrected your inaccuracy. If it was a sore spot, it would have resulted in a derogative response rather than a polite and considered one. Do keep that at the forefront of the mind. Commencing a response with such a remark is poor and indicative of resorting to deflecting from the intellectual accuracy, namely you know your argument is weak but need to rely on something else to mask that. I focused on the facts. If I had commenced my response with “Your comment shows a sore spot with dealing with the behaviour of a narcissist” that would have no merit because it is an emotional response, rather than a logical one.

          GOSO is entirely realistic. When you know you, you go. Many narcissists do not actually cause you a problem (e.g. the one who governs a company whose products you buy which help you in your life, the narcissist who owns the restaurant where you eat and is a bon viveur to his customers, the narcissist who is a friend who you only see intermittently) and invariably you do not recognise that these individuals are narcissists, why, because they are treating you well, you do not experience devaluation (for various reasons which I need not repeat here) and therefore you would not apply GOSO and therefore you do not avoid that part of the population. You will (if you apply logic and my work) identify certain narcissists owing to the unpleasant, undesirable elements of their behaviour and thus you remove yourself from that. This mainly applies to romantic and familial dynamics (as opposed to social and work ones) and thus the proportion of the population that needs to be avoided is much, much smaller than that envisaged by you.

          You did label a different perspective as insane. As you know from extensive writing on the point, we have a different perspective to others because that has become necessary for the purposes of surviving and thriving. You describe our behaviour as insane – our behaviour is driven by our different perspective – thus you are labelling those with a different perspective as insane. I have pointed out how there are many different perspectives and with examples and following your logic, you are indeed stating anybody with a different perspective should attract the label insane.

          It is only an extreme irrationality compared to your perception of reality. By the same token, I find your behaviour an extreme irrationality compared to my perception of reality.

      3. Ah Hg, my reference to a sore spot was my weak attempt at humour – the definition debate remains, so it is not weak.
        – I was merely expressing my surprise at your in-depth response.

        You find the label of insanity unhelpful. But if someone has the epiphany to perceive the extreme irrational behavior – by their own perception of reality; and deems it therefore insane and this instigates GOSO, it is helpful to the victim.

        Yes, reality is a question of perception.. the age old question.. what is real? So when a narc says I love you, and that is what he perceives as his truth at that moment.. why disagree?
        But then, when the same narc says I hate you, calls you a whore.. that is his truth, and if we follow and accept his interpretation of reality, then we must ask.. are both true?
        Isn’t that then an exampe of extreme irrationality on his part?
        Would it be extreme irrationality on my part to ever forgive the negative aspects to remain even in contact with such a “friend”?

        You maintain GOSO for romantic relationships is realistic, okay.
        But your idea that a relationship of “friendship” with a narc, understanding that by that description there will be no reciprocity, no support for the other person.. I’m not sure that is healthy..
        There will still be aspects of manipulation, lies, silent treatments..
        Would it be extremely irrational to maintain such a relationship?

        Perhaps I don’t mind being a little mad, insane. It can be fun. to my perception of reality, it is to me to judge, and decide if a relationship is harmful, and weigh the perceived benefits.. Perhaps this is always in flux with everyone.. But as we likely lack insight into the narcissist’s ultimate goals and aims, it could be considered dangerous to continue to engage in “friendship” as well..

        .. the whole.. if you play with fire, prepare to be burned..

        But, it is simply impossible to just ignore and avoid the narcs in our world.

        I hope to find balance with my narcs. family, friends, lovers.
        You know I love you, Hg, but then, I’m likely insane.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If recognising it as insane to bolster GOSO, that is fair enough, but that was not the context in which you made the initial remark. You have altered the context by referring to it within the auspices of bolstering GOSO.

          You keep referencing the behaviour of the narcissist as extreme irrationality but keep missing the point of what I am explaining to you. It appears as extreme irrationality to YOU based on your perception. It is not extreme irrationality to the narcissist. Your behaviour appears like extreme irrationality to the narcissist based on the narcissist’s perception. It is not extreme irrationality to you.

          I have explained previously about the position viz a viz a non intimate secondary source friendship relationship with a narcissist (where there has been no intimacy nor will there be) and I am not repeating my comments with regard to the wisdom of such interaction.

          I have corrected your innacuracy and the comment has served its purpose.

      4. Nuit Étoilée says:

        I was going to say, the difference is my behaviour that you perceive as extreme irrationality does not result in abuse to you, but then, considering the truly dire effects of criticism you experience…
        ..I cannot deny it hurts you..

        So. I guess to each his own.

        But yes, that was the context I imagined with the original post – when Leslie said she realized he was insane, I thought that might help her to GOSO, but I did not specify that. And this further discussion is interesting. I did not miss your point.

        All relationships have ups and downs, perhaps manipulation, lies as well.. so.. a question of effect and degree..

        To each his own.

        Thank you for an enlightening exchange, I appreciate it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome NE.

      5. Sarah says:

        Great to debate….I would like to weigh in!

        Given the narcissistic perspective is so unique, a narcissist needs to develop a high level of self control and maintain an awareness of their differences to mediate their responses to others in order to be ‘successful’.

        If you master self control it naturally leads to the ability to master almost anything, hence the power of narcissism at its highest level. Self control does not equate with insanity. Let us not forget that narcissistic traits (not the personality disorder) are strongly correlated with success.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Valid points.

      6. kel says:

        Reality is not a perception. Normal is a perception, but reality is a fact. Narcissists routinely lie to change the facts to fit their needs. “Alternative Facts” are not reality, they are lies. They aren’t truth.

        It’s been well established on this site that narcissists and victims are addicted to each other. I know I stayed around for a couple of reasons: to prove myself as better than his criticisms, and to try to figure out the mystery of him. Also because he was entertaining, intelligent, humorous, and I could have fun conversations, even if they were a mix of childish put downs on both sides. You don’t realize when you’re a victim that this person is necessarily the one making you feel that way, and you can’t shake the fact that you’re mind is obsessed by them.

        Reality does exist whether one chooses to see it or not. Narcissism is about deceiving people as well as themselves.

        Narcissists exist all around us. Knowing means not ignoring the red flags and not being ensnared.

        In order to get along with a narcissist, we have to do what they want, give them control, look the other way when they change the facts to fit their needs.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not the case Kel.

          There is no such thing as reality.

          Take for example, you and I are looking at a car – you say ‘look at the red car HG’ – I say ‘Yes, that’s a flash red car’. However, my version of red is your version of yellow. We see something different based on alternate perceptions – we are both right, even though our perception is different.

          What you taste, hear, smell, feel and see is purely based on an interpretation your brain gives you. What the empath perceives is an interpretation. What the narcissist sees is an interpretation.

          You have no need to get along with a narcissist. If you are having to what we want, give us control etc then you are diminishing yourself and therefore you must apply GOSO.

          1. MB says:

            “Diminishing yourself”. I like that HG

        2. MB says:

          Reality is an illusion as is control.

          1. windstorm says:

            “Reality is an illusion as is control.”

            I totally agree!

      7. kel says:

        HG, Color is a perception, but the car being there is a fact. But if the car being there disrupted the narcissists needs, he would flatly state that the car wasn’t there.

        Narcissists are all around us, coworkers, family, on TV, in traffic – even as tertiaries, we have to deal with them. I’m not going to hole up like a hermit to avoid them. But you have taught me to stop being an emotional thinker and to stop believing everyone is good, and to be wiser. Your advice is my invisible force around me. I think too that you teach us not to be targets to narcissists in the first place.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          How do you know what I see as a car is your version of the car you see? You do not. We both see something we label a car but we see it differently. This is precisely the same situation with an empath and a narcissist – we see the same events but interpret them differently. It is about perception.

          You do not have to hole up as a hermit and as you point out, why should you? What you do is lower your emotional thinking so when you spot our kind you evade or minimise the involvement where interaction is strictly necessary (working with someone, co-parenting in accordance with a court order) so your ET stays below the tipping point and there is no ‘ensnarement’. I am pleased my information acts as an invisible force around you, good to know.

      8. Christopher Jackson says:

        All about the fuel

        1. HG Tudor says:


      9. mommypino says:

        Saying that NPD is insanity is definitely an exaggeration (therefore illogical). If it is insanity then Chris Watts would have been able to use that as a defense for what he did. But it is not. People with NPD are not insane, they know very well the consequences of their actions and they know right from wrong. It is a mental illness but not all mental illnesses fall under insanity. You cannot say that a depressed person is insane even though depression is also a form of mental illness.

        I have come to a conclusion that a lot of the problems that we have is when we impose our own realities to other people. When a narcissist feels what they thought was love, that is their reality. We have our own reality of what love is and IT IS NOT compatible or in line with their reality of love, so now we decide to impose our reality to them by sticking with them and believing that we can make them or SHOULD make them love us the way we think love should be (based on our reality). Instead of that, we should accept the fact that we are different, we can all coexist while being different without having to be part of each other’s lives. Let them live their lives in their own realities and rules and we should live our own lives in our own realities and rules.

        My Mid-ranger SD honestly believes that I only married their dad for his money. I spent so mich effort trying to disprove that. I felt that she needs to be corrected. I was wrong. She doesn’t need to be corrected, I don’t need to prove anything to her. She is entitled to her own reality and her reality doesn’t alter or affect mine. We can all coexist and both love happy (or in her case powerful) lives but we don’t need to be a part of each other’s lives.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Your comment about problems arising from the imposition of our own realities on others is on the money and applies in both directions.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Absolutely. Much easier if you keep them out of your bed and at a distance. Live, spread awareness and knowledge so that people can make their own decisions and come to their own conclusions, and let live.

      10. shesaw says:

        At the moment I realised that he had planted daffodils in my garden in such a pattern that it showed the word ‘whore’ – I realised that this man had a different perspective of reality.

        I had to try it out, lol.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Haha. It’s good to practice.

      11. kel says:

        I believe in reality. I don’t believe in twisting reality to fit your needs. They teach the difference between facts and opinions in grade school. An ink blot ‘sat’ before us is a fact, our different perceptions of what we see in the ink blot reveals our different viewpoints. I might notice something different than you do about a car that goes by, but the fact is that the car drove past us. Whether you call the car a jalopy or a cruiser, because a rose by any other name is a rose, doesn’t change the fact that it was there. A narcissist will change the fact if he feels like it, by lying and saying it didn’t happen. Maybe it’s true for some that if you believe in a lie hard enough, then that makes it true, but I prefer to believe in the fact and to recognize a lie when it happens as a matter of fact too.

      12. Leanne says:

        Not insanity, but for some, dangerous

  7. wounded says:

    I’m reading this and laughing my ass off. A former friendly aquaintence that is mutual friends with another (former) victim of narcisstic abuse just pulled another stunt by cancelling something. Everyone is frustrated and indignant. I pulled the plug on her bullshit two months ago.

    You see, I recommended this blog to the former victim. She opted not to use it. So, for her, the cycle repeats. I mentioned my concerns and yet….chance after chance.

    So, I’m going to listen to Dvorak, paint, and rest assured I made the right decision.

    1. Renarde says:

      You did the right thing in recommending the blog then its up to them. Ive pointed a few in thus direction and they usually come back and thank me for that.

      1. wounded says:

        No one yet has taken my advice, which might be a form of denial. While I can’t spot a narcissist from a mile away I am much more aware of toxic behaviors and have zero problems with GOSO. Very thankful for that.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I think it’s still important to direct people here for the information even if it appears they are not interested in taking the advice. They may act on it privately and just not want to admit it to you, or they may think they don’t need it (now), but just mentioning it the once plants a seed, and if and when they do, you have aided them.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Valid point.

      2. wounded says:

        NarcAngel I will continue to direct people here because knowledge is power. There are also always moments of weakness as well. Also a sense of camaraderie that is very important for victims.

        1. Renarde says:

          Oh yes, I agree very much so Wounded. What tends to happen us they start to read, come back all breathless and excited and tell me they’re ‘hooked’ before accurately prophesing a ‘lost weekend ahead’.

  8. Renarde says:

    This reminds me very much of an incident with an ex fiance. Would’ve been #2 if it had carried on.

    One day a month, I went to co-organisers event. (She was functioning, or was about to function as who would be #3s lieutenent but that was in the future). STRICTLY female event. I looked very much forward to this one and only highpoint in the month. The isolation was well underway.

    Had to get the bus. It was an LDR, he was US. He wanted to speak to me. But he had deliberately started an argument much earlier on. I waited and waited. I left.

    I had agreed to be back by ten. Normally, I would have. But I was angry. Fuming. I thought fuck him, I’m with my friends, how dare he insist on times when he creates so much stress and drama?

    I roll in finally at about one. Except I cant because I’ve lost the damn key and I’m on my own. I panic and message him for help and reassurance.

    What I recieved was barrage after barrage of insults. Blaming me, the world, those women etcs… Mostly me for lying to him about ten.

    I finally start thinking and find the damn key. But it marked, very clearly, a line. It ended that night. His first thought was not was I ok? Then get me to calm down and recheck my stuff. It was that he wanted to hurt me.

    I saw it for what it was in an instant and realised how fucked up it really was. The relationship rumbled on for a couple more months but THAT with him was my moment.

    When I did tell him I needed space then FINALLY insisted on it, the fury was beyond. Everything from rants, raves, screams, crying, begging, pleading. I was very glad the Atlantic was in the way knowing what I know now from HG. Many women make the mistake of doing it face to face and pay the ultimate price.

    He was LVN.

  9. Bekah B says:

    Ahhh.. Thanks for that last tidbit of insight, HG..

  10. Anm says:

    I’m in the middle of negotiations and mediation for court hearings with my daughters father, who is a upper lesser. The energy between us is, and always has been, like the Clinton vs. Trump Presidential debates.
    A topic will come up, I will discuss in a factual and poised manner. He will then call me a liar, and dig up a false narrative of the past, and why I need to be thrown in jail. His new attorney is also a female lesser. Her voice shrieks when she speaks/yells in court. I have never in my life experienced such madness

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      I’m so sorry for you anm that you are going through such unnecessary tactics. How frustrating and draining.

      I hope you’ve had a chance to consult with HG over your troubles, like you mentioned somewhere. Sorry I don’t have Ks powers, I can’t remember where and when….

      Stories such as yours remind me of how glad I am now that I didn’t have children with my narc ex. I had enough troubles with my non narc ex husband, I hate to think of all the ways yours will be causing mischief for you. Mischief? Pfft, more like anger, confusion, heartache.

      You’ve found the best place for practical, logical advice.
      Good luck with it all.

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        I know that the above sounds harsh, and I know that if we did have children, I’d feel differently. I’d be wanting to minimise contact as much as possible.

      2. Anm says:

        Thank you. Please do not feel sorry for me. This is what life is about, to experience and share with others. This has just been a bizzare experience. I have yet to consult with HG privately. One of our hearings is thursday. I’m the defendent. My ex is counting on me throwing mud. His attorney would love that also, so that our case extends another 4 months or so. My gut tells me this is definitely not the time to expose the narc. I’m going in, defending my own parenting, shutting this circus down, and ill come back at another time when the narc is the defendent. After this is over, I’m contacting HG to help me put together new boundaries and a coparenting plan.

        1. Mercy says:

          Good luck tomorrow Anm!

          1. Anm says:

            The hearing went well today. Narcissist main concern was fuel and money.

          2. windstorm says:

            Great to hear that your hearing went well!

          3. Anm says:

            Well, I take it back. It didn’t go well, but it could have been worst. So that’s a plus. Lol

          4. Mercy says:

            I’m glad it went well Anm!

      3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        I didn’t word my comment correctly Anm!
        Please don’t think I pity you…. I ahem, empathise with you and your situation…
        you seem to have your shit together though from your comment…
        Again, good luck with all future proceedings xo

      4. K says:

        Tappi Tikarrass
        Don’t feel bad, if the comments are recent, then they aren’t uploaded on google yet.

    2. DoForLuv says:

      Thats horrible , I hope you’ll get trough this and over with it soon .

    3. Bekah B says:

      Anm, I am so sorry to hear that you are in the middle of court negotiations with your daughter’s father.. I can only imagine how that entire experience is playing out.. But I know you’ll get through it and I am glad that you have plans to consult with HG afterwards so you can come up with an effective plan of dealing with your narc further, when it comes to co-parenting..

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