The Mid Range Narcissist


I have come across these five questions on a number of occasions. They are often regarded as the five fundamental queries which are raised about our behaviour. They are usually answered in a forthright manner by certain commentators in order to drive the message home. However, these observations and answers are provided by people who are not of our kind. They are naturally entitled to comment but the true value arises from someone who is on the other side of the fence, the perpetrator of the actions, the doer. Furthermore, the usual observations are provided without regard to the fact that narcissists are both similar yet different because we operate in certain schools which are linked to our degree of functioning and malign outlook. Accordingly, the traditional answer provided to one of these questions may be correct for the greater of our kind, but not for the mid-range or for the lesser narcissist. This time the focus falls on those narcissists which are from the Mid-Range school. It is usually the case that those who Mid-Range are not so much defined by what they are, but rather by what they are not. Thus if a behaviour which accords with a lesser narcissist is absent and a behaviour which accords with a greater narcissist is absent but the individual still displays behaviour which accord with narcissism as a whole, this person falls within the Mid-Range. The Mid-Range is neither a creature of complete knee-jerk reactions but nor is he or she fully aware of what he or she is and the capabilities that he or she may possess. He or she will not exhibit the driven, malign nature of those narcissists from the greater school. Here are the five answers to the five central questions.


  1. Do We Know What We Are Doing?


Whereas the lesser narcissist operates through instinctive responses and in a knee-jerk manner the Mid-Ranger knows what he or she is doing even though the response is largely still one of instinct. Most of the Mid Ranger’s response is instinctive but they have a greater awareness of what is happening, the Lesser does not really notice.

The Mid-Ranger will notice that they feel a sense of unease and being unsettled. This is when their fuel levels have dropped to a low level. They do not know that the sensation of unease is linked to the reduced fuel levels. The Mid-Ranger does know that provoking reaction in the person who is his or her primary source and other people causes the unease to diminish and vanish. He or she is aware of the link between the need to receive attention and the reduction in the state of unease. He or she realises that certain reactions do not always work (i.e. unemotional ones) and that some reactions are superior to others (the sense of unease vanishes quicker and is replaced with a feeling of power) but they do not know why that is. They do not realise the index of fuel supply governs their own state of power/unease. They do know what if they are praised they feel better, if you are made to cry, they feel better and if you are losing your temper because of something that they have done, they feel better.

  1. Do We Know That We Are Hurting You?


Akin to the lesser, the Mid-Ranger is aware of the hurt that is being caused, the major difference however is that the Mid-Ranger recognises that you are being hurt (since he possesses Cognitive Empathy) but he or she will never OWN the responsibility for that hurt. Thus, he may say

“I know you are hurt when I call you names, but if you just stopped trying to control me, then I would not have to do it.”

He knows the name-calling upsets you, he also is aware that your emotional response has a positive impact for him (although does not know why) but he will never accept that this behaviour is wrong or his fault.

The Mid-Ranger may also give some consideration to how this might be achieved whereas the Lesser just does it. This tends to be apparent with mainly Upper Mid-Rangers, Lower and Middle Mid Rangers still operate through an instinctive response.

The Mid-Ranger does not behave this way because of any innate malevolence but rather because he or she is aware that the evidence of pain on your part gives them a “good” feeling and lessens the unease which may appear. The Mid-Ranger knows that if he or she acts in a certain way, it will cause you upset. With the higher functioning Mid Ranger, he or she will take some time to evaluate how best to respond in a situation so that the “good” feeling can be obtained. This is why some Upper Mid-Rangers are often mistaken for Greaters because they have a degree of calculation to their actions.

The Mid-Ranger will be aware of what it is that you are doing which has generated contempt, irritation or annoyance. He will be able to provide you with a reason behind this sensation and moreover if there is no actual reason he is readily able to invent one. Whereas the lesser can only usually respond in a vague and amorphous fashion, the Mid-Range will provide you with a reason for this annoyance at your behaviour and why he or she is hurting you. It is most likely a lie, but a reason will be provided nevertheless.

  1. Do We Do This Deliberately?

The Mid-Ranger is deliberate in his or her behaviours but they remain governed by instinct. They do not know it is fuel, they do not know its true purpose but they are sufficiently aware and of sufficient function to link the provision of certain reactions by you to the settling and empowering effect it has on them. The Mid-Ranger is aware that he or she can provoke good and bad emotions from you and that these reactions serve a purpose.

They are also able to apply a wider range of manipulations from their repertoire as a consequence of their increased function. The response is an instinctive response but in some instances will be thought out and whilst the plotting and scheming is far removed from the grand scale of the greater narcissists, there is no doubting that the Upper Mid-Ranger will plan. He or she will consider how people can best serve them. This is not done from a malicious point of view but is more about working out what will serve him or her the best. The Mid-Ranger will consider which friends serve him best, who will make the best target and how the various people that are his fuel lines knit together. He does not behave in the random and chaotic fashion of the Lesser nor with the pinpoint, malicious accuracy of the greater but with a sense of organisation and planning so that he or she gets what he or she wants.

  1. Can We Control This Behaviour?


The Mid-Ranger is possessed of the ability to control his or her behaviour even though the majority of it is instinctive. Accordingly, he will respond to certain behaviours with his own set response but can exert some control, for instance keeping a lid on the ignited fury for a short time, since he recognises the situation demands a certain approach.

Since he or she is not a creature of base instinct like the lesser but adopts a more considered approach there is some thought given to how he or she should respond. The Mid-Ranger is not aware of why they ought to behave in this way, they only know that there is a way of behaving which suits them best and they need to tailor their responses and behaviours to accord with this way and this includes control. The Mid-Ranger only has so much control however and in situations where fuel levels plummet and there is a real or perceived threat of a primary source cessation then the Mid-Ranger will lose control when placed under such duress. This may occasionally manifest in the use of physical violence. The Mid-Ranger knows there will be consequences but is unable to contain the urgent need to “do something” and therefore control is lost. The Mid-Ranger is particularly prone to using the silent treatment as this represents a halfway house between exerting and losing control. He or she may be panicked into a sudden reaction but they do not lose control to such an extent that a frenzied response, by way of violence both physical and verbal may appear. Instead they vanish. The Mid-Ranger is also more likely to engage in emotional, financial and sexual abuse through planning and the greater subtleties and insidious nature attached to these particular machinations.

  1. Can We Stop It?

Yes, the Mid-Ranger can to some extent. Much of his behaviour is instinct. He truly considers himself to be a good person, he believes he is empathic and caring, he regards other people as the problem. He cannot understand why people have to be so unfair, so troublesome and why they cause him pain and anguish, since he has such a different perspective to you.

He has an awareness and therefore is able to decide that the behaviour can stop. Indeed, where the Mid-Ranger perceives an advantage to be acquired he will do so and amend his behaviour accordingly. Whereas the lesser narcissist will instigate a respite period instinctively without knowing why he is doing, his need to devalue will just abate and the golden period returns, the Mid-Ranger knows the value of a respite period and will grant it because he feels settled and prone to wanting the contrast of the positive fuel again. Similarly, when those fuel levels drop the Mid-Ranger knows to commence the devaluation again. His awareness and control enable him of her to stop the devaluing behaviour as and when it is required. He does not exercise this with regard to any sense of malevolence, like the greater, but rather it is driven by need. The Mid-Ranger could stop his or her abusive behaviour but will not do so if they perceive a need for it to continue. The lesser is unable to stop it because it “just happens”. Of the three schools, the Mid-Ranger is less volatile, less malicious but in some respects can be regarded as entirely culpable for the behaviours which are engaged in and that are doled out to his or her victims. The difficulty is however, you can regard the Mid Ranger as culpable but he or she will never accept any liability for their behaviour because they are automatically configured to reject any notion that they are at fault. Their default setting is always to block this, reject it and counter it – usually through Pity Plays, sulking, silent treatments, blame-shifting and projection.

154 thoughts on “The Mid Range Narcissist

  1. About the eyes says:

    This one gave me the creeps. It was as if my father/mother/sister were talking to me. Thank you for your YouTube channel. It helps me a lot.

  2. CP says:

    Finally an answer to what I’ve been married to for 22 years…I always thought I was going crazy with all the word salad, devaluing and abuse. The worst pattern is abandonment and dropping out of contact. Used to do this randomly normally after golfing and would stay out all night or come home drunk (he also has a drinking issue). A year ago he stayed at his friends house for 3 months and wouldn’t even speak to me – of course he came back. I’ve been unable to prove infidelity or another source though I have my suspicions. I can never access his devices – we are basically living separate lives in the same house. My stress levels are insane as he keeps randomly abandoning and then texting and trying to make things right. If I file for a divorce can we do it amicably, he said he would if it came to that? Don’t know if I trust it as he can rage emotionally and has broken into my apartment and stalked me when we broke up in our younger years. I think I may either do a consultant or confirm he’s a mid ranger with you – my ET is really getting in my way and I keep doubting my instincts and wonder how I will survive without him though I’m sick and totally unhappy in this life.

    1. CP says:

      Another thing is he checked himself into a rehab when I said I was leaving him – then he told me and the Counselors the program was awful that everyone there was way sicker than him…and pressured me to go get him which I did. He has a bmw and I was driving it when he was in there – when we checked out of rehab the first thing he said was how dare I drive his car when he was in there – and then he never let me drive it after that.

    2. HG Tudor says:

      On the basis he is a narcissist, you will not get an amicable divorce. Amicable divorces are a rarity but people are fooled into thinking they can regularly be achieved. Please see the article “Why Divorce is So Hard”

      1. Charlene P says:

        Thx HG I’m going to be calling to talk about all this –

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Good. I’ll save you a fortune.

      2. Charlene P says:

        Great read…and while he tells me a mediator would be fine I highly doubt that. I see things getting evil.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Mediation is a waste of time.

          1. Charlene P says:

            He suggested, I was leery. He stayed out Sunday yet again, is now in hotel since-I’m no contact w him as of then. He drove by our house today but didn’t come in. He will be back.

        2. Renarde says:


          Do not go there! It’s a trick to put you off guard.

          Have you got a lawyer engaged yet? If not then do so.

          Then contact HG. He will absolutely save you a fortune.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Renarde.

          2. Renarde says:

            No problem. I could certainly have used your services when I was going through mine.

  3. Au Contraire says:

    This post gave me an immense relief from doubt and anxiety. The explanation of the mid-range narcissist as
    feeding off of the power of provoking an emotional response without really internalizing their lack of empathy and calculation struck home. The friend who crawled up inside my head and made me miserable and physically ill is herself a victim of a narcissistic parent and has been in therapy for years – it seemed impossible to me that she could be a narcissist with so much awareness of the symptoms, and so her cruel behavior toward me was all the more bewildering. She seemed so in touch with her feelings – so willing to strengthen our friendship (in fact, once she had determined that I was completely submissive and dependent on her opinion she had already secured a new supply and was slowly discarding me). There was a remarkably articulate emotional manipulation in place that left me feeling paranoid, angry, and perpetually frightened of every form of loss – this post has alleviated a lot of the “whywhywhy” and self recrimination I’ve been feeling since going No Contact.

  4. candacemarie1212 says:

    Hello HG
    The out come of my narc consultation regarding my dad was that he is an upper MR. I have very little contact with him now. I’ve been seeing a therapist. She said she knew about narcissists but I am having doubts. I let her listen to your audio and she seemed to understand. But when I went back to see her she said that it was just one person’s opinion from someone who has never met my dad. She won’t say if she thinks my dad is a N. I don’t know what other proof she needs.
    Two years ago I was in a pretty serious car accident which totalled my car and I was in the hospital for a few days. My dad came to see me and offered to buy me a new car. He has always been generous with his money. But that is the only good thing he does when it comes to me. He did buy me a new car. So my therapist kept asking me what is so narcissistic about my dad buying me a car? What would be in it for him? What kind of negative consequences could come from that? I didn’t have an answer. I just got the feeling she is trying to say he might not be a narcissist because he has done nice things i.e buying me a car.
    She keeps bringing up that she has tons of clients who have dad’s just like mine and it’s because of the generation the parent came from.
    I don’t know if I really believe that.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. She is unlikely to be an expert.
      2. Her Code of Ethics prevents her from providing a definitive pronouncement if she is an expert on narcissism (although I doubt she is).
      3. Blaming “generational behaviour” evidences a lack of understanding. That is akin to saying that the behaviours of various famous people in sexually abusing/assaulting people during the 1970s/1980s was not narcissism, it was “just they way it was then”.
      4. It is not the act of buying the car which defines him as a narcissist but other behaviours and thus one looks at that act through the prism of him being a narcissist. He did this to control, to manage his facade and to cause you to think (or try to achieve this) that he is not a bad person. I do pleasant things for people, it is called benign manipulation.

      1. candacemarie1212 says:

        Thank you HG

    2. ANM says:

      Is your Therapist a Licensed Marriage and Family Counselor, who works in private practice? That is what it sounds like. They can be detrimental for victims of abuse. I think the main reason is, even if they took a few classes on Personality Disorders or even Domestic Abuse, they make money and get clients by making the paying person happy with their services. They are often more inclined to get their clients to “understand” the other family member to have a better “relationship” with them, and working on self esteem issues.
      If I were an adult child of a Narcissist, I would look into local support groups that help Adult Children Of Alcoholics, Trauma Support, Inner Child Work, anything that may help an adult recover from an abusive childhood, and utilize the networks and referrals from the group.

      1. candacemarie1212 says:

        Yes she is a Licensed Marriage and Family Counselor. She is always explaining away others behaviors besides my dad’s. She is encouraging me to re connect with my sister who I haven’t been close to since childhood because she has always acted more like a mom to me rather than a sister, she always takes my dad’s side and has never shown me any empathy. I don’t see us being close in the future. Thank you for the information 😊

    3. K says:

      HG knows more about our parents then we do and we grew up with them! She is not an expert; she doesn’t understand benign control/manipulation, binding or facade at all.

    4. K says:

      Benign triangulation which is used to provoke a positive reaction from you to gain fuel and exert control.

  5. NotMe! says:

    If anyone continues to harbour doubts about whether the MMRN has awareness of his defence mechanisms or wonders if HG is accurate in ‘how no contact feels’ to them, please see below excerpts from a hoover that got through the net by email a couple of weeks post escape.

    ‘Judging and condemning me without giving me any opportunity to respond to what are apparently unsupported charges, is unjustified and unreasonable.

    I accept that you haven’t been happy with me, but it’s a big step to blocking my messages and I have found this disturbing behaviour from you.

    It’s a universal truth that if a circumstance can be supported by two or more sets of explanation, the simplest usually is correct. Or as I say, cock up or conspiracy; it’s more likely to be a cock up

    I have accepted and recognised that you weren’t happy with me, and understand that you thought your response was entirely balanced and reasonable. I don’t expect for a moment that you’ll change your mind on either point, so I won’t ask you to.

    However, I do want to resolve the differences and move forward in a constructive way.

    I suggest that you had developed a negative view of me and you made assumptions of guilt with your mind closed to the possibility of any other reasonable explanations, which had the effect of making a difficult situation much worse and events took a worryingly dark turn. I recall something like this happening before when you convinced yourself that I had read and ignored your Whatsapp messages, and in fact I had not closed my Whatsapp screen when I put my phone down. It took me a couple of days to figure it out, but you were adamant that your negative assumption was correct. In a the interim, I was on the back foot and it set the pattern.

    In any event, I can’t turn the clock back and nothing can be unsaid. We’ll just have to move forward from this’

    Astonishingly when I read this, it was in HG’s voice!!! And I laughed like a drain.

    Lessons learned:
    Change your email address
    They are ducking clueless
    Listen to HG to keep your defences strong

    May the Tudor force be with you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good observations.

    2. Kim e says:

      You brute. Picking on that poor MMRn like that. Going NC like he is just an unfeeling soulless thing. He just wants to….OH NEVER MIND…I tried to type with a straight face and it did not work. As HG said before…they are TWATS!!!!!

    3. Gina says:

      This sounds just like my ex narc. I read it in his voice. Don’t know which of the mid rangers he is but he is def a mid range narc.

  6. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, I’ve really noticed since you’ve weaponised me that there seem to be a fair number of mids (not all) from LMR right through to UMR who whilst they need to feel in control and dole out STs, pity plays and buying small gifts when they see I maintain my stance etc they do eventually submit and are so grossly creepy/ brown nosers.

    These are mids who have no choice but to interact with me nor me them all NISS

    Is this because of their victim mentality that if someone is more (for want of a better word) dominant/feisty/assertive in their approach they feel powerless?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The adjectives you describe result in the provision of Challenge Fuel. This threatens the narcissists sense of control, thus they have to assert control through the means described.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Extremely helpful. One of the very many comments I’ll be saving in my special HG Tudor file.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thinking about this a little more. okay so there are many mids who brown nose those who they perceive are superior to them and they never get to be ‘top dog’ but they feel that they’re controlling things from being so pathetic and pitiful? goodness! so gross!

      3. BonnieLou says:

        What happens to a Mid Ranger if you don’t respond to his name calling? He did it a few times (never to my face, only by text) but I never once reacted or called him any names back

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Mid Ranger is wounded.

          1. BonnieLou says:

            Oh wow! Thanks HG! That is crazy! So he was more hurt by me not calling him any names back and ignoring him. Would he, in a way, respect me for not reacting?…could I possibly have been his Shield Maiden? 😳

          2. HG Tudor says:


  7. Kim e says:

    Hi all,

    Just remembering how I found it so strange that when he would set up a “date” it would always be me confirming the plans.
    Yet the last time I asked him out he was checking in with me……3 times before the date.
    Seems like the tables were turned. Wonder if he does that because I did it…….
    my head hurts………………

  8. Amanda Snapchat QUeen says:

    was Michael jackson a midranger? thoguhts?

    1. K says:

      Amanda Snapchat QUeen
      It’s a little late but here’s your answer.

      Pauline says:
      March 7, 2019 at 19:19
      HG, do you thing that Michael Jackson was a narcissist? Mid Ranger or the Greater?

      HG Tudor says:
      March 8, 2019 at 08:46
      Yes I do. Greater – he knew precisely what was going on and played the little boy act with aplomb.

  9. Twisted Heart says:

    Jenna, I agree. It is taxing for them. In person, I would see so many sides to him. It was mostly sex or silent treatment sprinkled with insults and the odd dash of sweetness but texting with him was completely different. We would have great banter and I found him caring, witty and clever. I think because I was at a distance from him via text that he felt more in control and therefore more relaxed.
    Such odd little creatures.

  10. Kim e says:

    HI HG, Looking forward to our chat next week but in the mean time I have a question please.
    My MMRN used to ride train B together. After we split he started taking train C and I took A. This has been the arrangement for almost a year.
    Last time I saw him in January he told me that he is not taking train B anymore (He never did) and is taking C (the one he always did after we split)
    Then about 10 days later and on and off ever since, he is taking the B train. (I hear this from friends)
    Why? At first I thought maybe passive hoovers but then I thought I am the shelf and he would not do passive hoovers unless the HEC is met.
    So why?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A passive hoover originates from the HEC being met. The meeting of the HEC will result in a hoover – the form of that hoover will vary.
      He will be catching train B for the purposes of wanting to hoover you in person, either directly or indirectly.

      1. Kim e says:

        HG you stated
        A passive hoover originates from the HEC being met. The meeting of the HEC will result in a hoover – the form of that hoover will vary.
        He will be catching train B for the purposes of wanting to hoover you in person, either directly or indirectly.

        So do you mean to tell me that he thought just by telling me he was NOT taking train B I would take train B and he could then hoover me?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He said he was not taking train B because his instinctive narcissism determined that was the best thing to say. This made him appear like he was having nothing to do with you (façade management) but this would (although he did not consciously think this) perhaps cause you to then get on train B.
          He travels train B because instinctively his narcissism is expecting you to be there, which will be a Hoover Trigger and then (subject to the HEC being met) you could well be hoovered. At a conscious level he would not be thinking about getting the train to hoover you and if you challenge him that he lied about not using train B, you would be issuing Challenge Fuel and his narcissism would cause him to respond in a way to deny the accusation in some way (I never said that or well yes, I was not using this train but then xyz happened so I have just started using it today).

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Kim’s situation with the train did not apply to me and yet I got much about the conscious vs unconscious thinking from the explanation you provided to her. A great example of learning from reading the posts of others and cutting down on repetitive questions. Thank you.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed NA and I am pleased that is the case, there is always something to be learned here and that goes in both directions.

          3. Kim e says:

            HI NA. Nice to see you.
            At the time he said it to me I knew exactly why he said it. He wanted me to feel safe getting on the train thinking he would not be on it. My question to HG stemmed from my belief (now found to be wrong) that an effect of being on the shelf is my narc not wanted to be seen until he deemed it.
            I could get on the train and because of where I sit (creature of habit) he could see me before entering my side of the car and divert to the other side and hoover as he has done numerous times in the past.
            Guess I could really mess him up and sit someplace completely different so he cant see me when he gets on. Wonder if I did that once realizing I was there if he would move…LOL
            Take care. Always love your thoughts and ideas.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Kim E
            Just curious. Is the train a must? Would the inconvenience be great if you chose a different mode of transport? I understand if it is. Just looking at other options because sometimes we do things out of habit and don’t consider all of the pros and cons.

          5. Kim e says:

            NA. I work 50 miles east of where I live so the train is a must. Driving would be a nitemare along with parking.
            I changed my nightly train months ago to one that I know he can not take because it leaves the station at the time he is getting off work.
            He just mentioned this to see if I would get on our “old” train. I will when I know he is gone with the Army but not while he is here.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Kim E
            Ah. I understand.

          7. Kim e says:

            NA…sorry forgot to say when I go NC if he changes something up or decides to hoover me early in the morning at the station, I have been thinking of back up plans.

          8. Supernova DE says:

            I agree! I think it is so hard for us to truly comprehend what is going on in the mid-rangers thoughts, it is so nice when HG spells it out. I hope he continues to do so.

            I think this is one of the most difficult things for me to understand, and it sets me back. I (still) cannot get my head around the fact that he does not see he is lying, he does not see that he is punishing, he does not see that he is being contradictory. He just thinks I’m nuts for reacting the way I do. “I just don’t understand why you react the way you do.” He said it to me over and over and over. At least now I know it was his actions, and not something broken in me, causing my reactions.

            Pretty sure he suspects I’m a narc. Oh well.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            I know its interesting, but try not to get caught up in if he does or doesn’t understand why you react the way you do. The only thing that matters to him is that you do, because any reaction at all is…you got it. Fuel. That is all he is looking for. He is not really looking to understand you.

          10. Kim e says:

            He travels train B because instinctively his narcissism is expecting you to be there, which will be a Hoover Trigger and then (subject to the HEC being

            And what are his thoughts if I never show up on train B?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            No Hoover Trigger.

          12. nunya biz says:

            “No Hoover Trigger.”


          13. Supernova DE says:

            I appreciated your explanation of the train situation to Kim also.
            Do mid-rangers hate challenge fuel?

          14. HG Tudor says:

            All narcissists hate to be challenged, but we love fuel.

  11. Leolita says:

    So I broke NC. And now I am wondering whether I am paranoid or he is really a narcissist. Even though I know he is, he has all the traits and reading HGs work I felt like I read his diary, or his mind, everything finally made sense. He convinces me from time to time, and then my head starts spinning, – is this me having lost my insight? Is this what happens when we break NC? I spent a year reading HGs work and gaining understanding, and held my NC like a shield, but after letting my guards down and talking to him I feel really confused. I also feel drained because he takes all my energy, always making drama and I cant trust him at all, I know that after 6 yrs as his IPPS. It feels like he turned everything upside down, everything I knew I am not so sure of now, one day I am sure but the next I am not. Is this my emotional thinking having gotten the best of me?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is the effect of your ET, it attacks your empathic traits and is turning your truthseeking trait against you by suggesting the individual is not a narcissist. I recommend you consult with me.

      1. Leolita says:

        Ok, let’s do that. Do you have time this week, if I make the payment tomorrow?. I think it is urgent.

        1. HG Tudor says:


    2. NarcAngel says:

      Yes. Your emotional thinking is causing you to question all that you had accepted. Your logic is battling back by reminding you what was (and still is). You need to have it confirmed that you were right to go no contact originally, have it explained to you how he is able to cause this effect on you now, what will happen if you do not get back on dry ground. You should consult with HG before you get in any deeper.

      1. Leolita says:

        Thank you, both HG and NarcAngel! So grateful for your replies. I will consult HG because I cannot do this anymore, it feels like I am going insane

  12. WhoCares says:

    Mid-Rangers seem to be the target of much distain etc., all around – once we know how to recognize them. Lessers are more obvious but get more easily ‘caught’ by the law and such…

    Greaters will always be hard to detect.

    Why is that Mid-Rangers have been so good at ‘hiding’ themselves up until now? Especially if they are the biggest majority of narcissists? We only now begin to recognize them better as a direct result of HG’s work.

    If Greaters are self-aware and recognize other members of their kind…HG is the first Greater to give us the insight to “see” this and the tools to actually protect ourselves.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      All valid and accurate observations.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Thank-you HG

    2. windstorm says:

      I don’t think it’s so much “hiding” as we just didn’t label them as narcs, because they themselves really think they are good, caring people. But I think we’ve always recognized that they are jerks and are abusive. I think if we turn the spotlight on the people in our lives who are hurtful, mean spirited, jealous of others happiness, ect – we would now see that many of these people are midrangers.

      1. WhoCares says:


        “I don’t think it’s so much “hiding” as we just didn’t label them as narcs, because they themselves really think they are good, caring people. But I think we’ve always recognized that they are jerks and are abusive. I think if we turn the spotlight on the people in our lives who are hurtful, mean spirited, jealous of others happiness, ect – we would now see that many of these people are midrangers.”

        WS, I agree with you that they were not consciously ‘hiding’, that they honestly believe themselves to be good people  – and I probably could have made a better word choice there.

        But I honestly don’t believe that we have always recognized that they are jerks and abusive. Perhaps at the level of romantic entanglement, yes. The difference may be that you have the benefit of having been around Greaters (with the insight they have) and have a different insight into what a Mid-Ranger “looks like.” And I’m sorry if this comes off as confrontational because it’s not meant to be (although there is a lot of anger under my perspective due to my personal experience)  but I actually bring it up because I respect the fact that you can debate with me without emotions getting in the way…

        At the romantic level, yes, I agree with you. However, at the familial level – especially parental – I have to disagree. Because I did not know that my partner was a narc and I certainly didn’t recognize that my mother was a narc (only now after the recognition of the similarities I realize that they are both mid-rangers) so my whole worldview, as I child, was skewed. It is even hard to explain how it feels – or how it felt – now, post-‘enlightenment’…

        I had put off composing my reply to you Windstorm because I thought it would end up being a book before I was done, lol. But I’m going to cap it here and just say that both my grandmother and mother looked liked angelic caretakers from a certain perspective (my grandmother worked for children’s services; taking in children who needed emergency care…my mom worked in daycare for many years and had other ‘caretaker’ roles with seniors) but they were both narcissists who abused their partners and children…I could never see it though until post-romantic entanglement. My mother made it look like my dad was the cause of all her stress and our family stress…only now I realize that he was an empath (just like me) only he was so disempowered and beaten down (possibly co-dependent because he got involved with a worse piece of work after my mom) that he had no voice to fight for himself, never mind his child. I know now that he probably blamed himself for everything (because that is what I would do if I didn’t know better now) and he may have died thinking he was a horrible father.

        1. windstorm says:

          I didn’t find your answer at all confrontational. Our experiences were just different. For whatever reason, how we looked at the world as children was very different. You said your worldview as a child was skewed. Mine was too, but it was that most people were narcs and that narc was normal. If anything I erred the other way by labeling all the family codependents as jerks as well, because they sided with the narc jerks and their words didn’t match their feelings.

          I can honestly say that I have never thought someone was angelic or really caring and they later turned out to be a narc. My supposedly caring family members who were narcs always came across as jerks to me. Even as a small child. Mama was a midranger, as were many extended family members, and the flaws and inconsistencies between what they thought about themselves and their actions always stood out to me. Maybe it was because I could sense their actual feelings and how they didn’t match their words. I don’t know.

          I also never really had any romantic entanglements because I was never a “romantic” person. I approached my husband selection very unemotionally. Pretzel never lovebombed or deceived me in what he was. He was what I expected in a man, but smarter.

          I guess looking at it objectively, I was always pretty weird.

          1. WhoCares says:


            Yes, I can agree with you that our childhoods were both skewed in their own. And I should clarify that my use of the word ‘angelic’ was sarcastic, lol – I would never describe my grandmother or mother as angelic – but some people, from a certain perspective, might have.

            As for ‘romance’ – again it is used for lack of a better term…I’m certainly not an true ‘romantic’ and have a lot of pragmatic elements to my personality (although I do admit to enjoying a tiny bit of magic and so-called romance in my life.)

            You often say that you feel weird…well, I understand the feeling…but from what I observe is that you’re one of the more level-headed, yet caring, commenters here.

            And I often think about the fact that I feel weird, as well…but I think that it is more accurate to say that I often feel ‘interstitial’ – i.e. not easily categorized…or like we feel as though since we don’t fit into someone else’s box that we fall through the cracks…well, I have gone through my whole life feeling interstitial.

          2. windstorm says:

            You pegged it! “we don’t fit into someone else’s box”

            So many of us grew up feeling we were wrong because we didn’t fit into the box others (often narcs) said we should. It doesn’t mean we are not awesome, wonderful, interesting and intelligent people!

          3. WhoCares says:


            Cheers to that! ♡

            *lifts her mug of German Chocolate Cake flavoured coffee*

  13. Jess says:

    My exUMRN also never told me he loved me because he admitted that he has difficulty with feeling it. But all of the other mid-range behaviours, yep he ticked all boxes.

  14. Sarah says:

    My Mid-Ranger (victim narc) has never told me that he loves me. I’m not sure if it’s because he’s always keeping the bold, passionate lie held back from me so it keeps me hanging on as he knows how much I’d want to hear it. Or, the fact I’m a DLS and he doesn’t want the backlash from saying that to me because I’ve contacted his lieutenants in the past and I have rude photographs of him that I once threatened to ‘send to all’ he knew.
    Yet he keeps coming back (for obvious reasons).
    This article brings to light so many once-hidden confusions.

    I get suckered into the abuse, because my father is a narc. My mother was and is still very loving and caring towards the three of us. I’m the middle child. I’ve read about ‘middle child syndrome’ and was wondering about your thoughts on this topic and if you think this also holds weight with the kind of people we are, Mr Tudor?

    Fantastic read, as always. I love your writings.

  15. foolme1time says:

    #4! Everything thing listed was my ex. with every abuse you have listed HG! I am so happy he is not any longer a part of my life and more importantly he is and never will be a part of heart! Thank you.

  16. ava101 says:

    With the current one, I can see it is not malicious. That is even more heart breaking and I feel compassion. 🙁
    The ex-narc was malign though.

    1. Leolita says:

      Every time I have figured out his bullshit (latest example is that he had had sex with both me and another «friend» of his, with only hours in between) and confronted him on it (this usually happpes on the telephone) he always hangs up, and refuses to answer. I (always) end up wanting to call him down, kill him with calls, or messages, and get this strong urge to really let him know what a loser and a coward he is. I also want to warn the other «friend», just to mess up things for him with her. I have NOT done it, though.

      The last time this happened, he blocked me. Is that a disengagement, then? And a sign that his ensnarement of this «friend» has proven to be successful? is it probably also facade maintenance, making me to be this crazy stalker? 🙄

  17. mommypino says:

    The Mid-Rangers may be snivelling cowards but they are very dangerous nonetheless. First they are everywhere, they are probably the majority of narcissists. They are probably the reason why narcissism is underreported, because they blend in so well and doesn’t always possess the conventional personalities of narcissists. Second, at first you would think that you are dealing with a good and decent person. So if your relationship with them do not work out, the belief that they are good people adds validity to your guilt that sets in blaming yourself for the failed relationship. And third, their facade will give credence to their smear campaigns against you. Most people believe that they are charming and good people, what’s wrong with you for not getting along with this person? So they may be the mediocre ones but they still do a lot of damage. They’re the classic wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear mommypino,
      You’re so spot on, I couldn’t agree more
      If you say anything negative about them …. whoa!!
      Great comment, thank you
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you Bubbles! 💕

    3. Joanne says:

      This is one of the most difficult things for me to get beyond – his ability to blend into normalcy, the idea that he TRULY believes he is a good guy. And that his facade is so well constructed, that most others see him as this good guy too. So I’m left with, “what’s wrong with me then?” 🙁

      1. mommypino says:

        Joanne, don’t let it get to you. It’s all just an illusion. It’s an illusion that he is telling himself and an illusion that he is making others see. Everyday he has to fight to keep that illusion in tact. Otherwise why would he need to treat people that way? We are so blessed that we don’t need to fight that battle each day. We know who we really are although in my experience, every time I got entangled with a narc, I ended up questioning who I am because of their blame shifting and character assassinations etc. That is what they want, to project to you what they really feel inside about them. Do not listen to that. It will be much better for you once you are able to go completely No Contact. 💕

        1. Joanne says:

          I feel the same with the questioning of myself at times. But in the grand scheme you said it exactly right; they have to wake up every day and WORK to keep up this facade. Thinking back to the conversations we’d had; him telling me so many of the good deeds he’d done… now I think about it and realize there was no real need to share that information at those times. It was all to just make sure that I knew what a “good person” he was. And who knows if those stories were real anyway. *sigh*

          1. mommypino says:

            Lol Joanne, that reminded me of a famous quote from Margaret Thatcher, “Power is like being a lady…if you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.” I think it also applies with being a good person. It will speak for itself if you really are.

          2. mommypino says:

            Joanne, I just want to clarify that when I said ‘you’ I didn’t mean you, I meant your narcissist. I know you’re a good person. 💕. I just absentmindedly copied the pronoun ‘you’ from the Margaret Thatcher’s quote.

        2. ava101 says:

          All very well said, extremely well put, mommypino!!
          Exactly what I am struggling with, also with the same things in the other comments. :/

          1. mommypino says:

            Thank you Ava101. I’m glad that it resonated with you. 💕

      2. Twisted Heart says:

        Same. The last time I saw him (before I learned about NPD) I told him how he’s like two different people. “Sometimes you’re this really sweet guy and sometimes you’re an asshole.” He said “I don’t think I’m an asshole.” That’s exactly the problem.

        Then I aplologized for being an asshole to him. “No harm done”, he said. He held my face with his hands and kissed me so tenderly and took me into his bedroom. I’ll never forget that night. I thought it was the real thing, well it was for me. Then he started ignoring me again the very next day. It’s excruciating. Why couldn’t it have been real? It’s the hardest part for me to let go of. That’s why I call it emotional rape. He knew how I felt about him and he just took advantage of my vulnerability so that he could get laid.

        The following weekend I unleashed the most hurtful words I had ever said to anyone in my life. Granted I had no idea what narcissism was but I knew that he was insecure, controlling and manipulative.

        I texted him “There’s a reason you’ve been single for four years. You’re lucky you had me while you did. Maybe you’ll find some lifeless fuck you can hide from but I see you for exactly who you are.”

        He didn’t like that. Usually when I was emotional or stood up to him he would just give me the silent treatment but this time he responded so I knew I had him. I replied “At least I got a reaction from you, truth hurts eh? Go fuck yourself.” And then I blocked him immediately.

        Did I wound him HG? I really regretted it afterwards. I hate that he brought me to that point but I was really in love with him and he broke me.

        Sorry I just went off on a tangent there. That seems to happen when I comment on this site.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, you will have provided Challenge Fuel. Emotion plus insult equates to challenge fuel.

          1. Supernova DE says:

            HG – Regarding the mid ranger and challenge fuel, I remember that you say when we are spewing insults and hurt/angry words at you, that you don’t really hear the content, just absorb the emotion. Is this also true of a mid ranger when we are texting them such things? I often felt the MMRN wouldn’t even read my long hurt or angry rants, he just skimmed them enough to know I was emotional, got fuel from this, and then ignored it entirely (typical mid ranger there on the ignoring). Would that be correct?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Ignoring you is his method of putting down the rebellion occasioned by the Challenge Fuel.

            When you provide Challenge Fuel, we take the emotion (the fuel) and also have to suppress your Challenge – this will be arguing with you, word salad, silent treatment etc.

          3. Twisted Heart says:

            Emotion + Insult + Gin = Challenge Fuel 😜

        2. Joanne says:

          How heartbreaking 🙁 . I can relate on some level. The mask vs the real man is so hard to reconcile. It just makes no sense. I’ve known my narc forever and he’s always been a jerk, but when he was pursuing me, he was the sweetest, most charming man alive. I convinced myself that the latter was the “real him,” and that he’d only show that side with me since he was into me. The mask eventually came off but I still think back to those days when he was charming and love bombing me and it’s VERY difficult to understand how fake that all was. It was very real for me.

          It IS emotional rape. I wasn’t ignored but went through a “slow fade.” My feelings remained the same while he became someone else and distanced further and further. There was a limit to what I could say and do about it though, given my being married. I wasn’t in a position to pressure or expect anything from him. But, I don’t blame you for lashing out, he definitely deserved it. And in some way, it must have felt good to stand up for yourself in that way. Whether or not it affected or wounded him — hard to say. Fuel for sure :/

          1. Kim e says:

            TH & Joanne,

            WOW…this whole conversation just triggered me to the max. I am SIPSS and am trying to go NC. I have never seen a bad side of him. He was always the sweet funny caring guy that first seduced me.
            I left him when I found out he was married but of course allowed myself to be hoovered right back in thinking it would be the same.
            I could actually do the shelf thing with him if he didn’t effect my emotions so much. Guess that makes me as damaged as he is….just in a different way.
            Care on ladies. We will concur this……………

          2. Joanne says:

            Kim E
            I’m curious what led you to believe he was a narc. (I apologize if you’ve explained that someplace else.)

            Being on the shelf isn’t so great. It is frustrating but I allow it because I am fully aware of what is happening. It’s also tolerable for me to be in this position because I am married 😔But I would be lying if I said my emotions were not tied up in him.

          3. Kim e says:

            Joanne, you asked me:
            “I’m curious what led you to believe he was a narc. (I apologize if you’ve explained that someplace else.)

            Being on the shelf isn’t so great. It is frustrating but I allow it because I am fully aware of what is happening. It’s also tolerable for me to be in this position because I am married 😔But I would be lying if I said my emotions were not tied up in him.”

            Thru out our relationship I was telling my girlfriend all about it. Sometimes as he was texting me I was so excited I was texting her with the blow by blow. (sorry if poor choice of words). There were red flags thruout but of course I had no idea what that meant at the time. I was in love (?).
            When I found out he was married I was floored. I said something about ego and she said, “i wonder if he is a narcissist. I googled but it was not until I found HG and the family that I really knew for sure.All the anxiety, ever presence, feeling like I was being melted into him.

            Terrible thing is I would go back in a heart beat. But sigh……I must go NC for me and my sanity.

          4. Joanne says:

            Kim E
            I understand. That golden period is just so glorious! And the fact that you didn’t see his “bad” side makes it difficult to let go. I only saw withdrawal and distance. He was never outright horrible to me and I did not suffer prolonged and vicious abuse the way so many others have. (And, the way I am certain he is capable).

            Sometimes I feel like I would’ve moved on and been 100% done with this if he was directly cruel to me. Big sigh here, too. You hang in there, keep learning and keep working on strengthening that logical thinking 💪🏼

          5. Twisted Heart says:

            I agree Joanne,
            Coming to terms with the whole facade thing is so difficult. It just feels so real. I know this is my emotional thinking but I think there was a real connection at times and that form of intimacy/vulnerability is just too much for them and they need to control, manipulate or fade away in order to keep us at a safe distance.

            Otherwise they’re not even human, they’re just parasites👽

          6. Twisted Heart says:

            Kim e,

            I think if I had to choose any position to be in in NarcWorld I would choose secret secondary source, you really get all the perks and you have leverage over them with it being a secret. I was a secondary once for two years and did I ever get spoiled but my self esteem took a big hit over time because I was fighting/hoping to be the primary source at some point but that never happened. That was a blessing in disguise.

            When I had enough I contacted his wife and told her who I was. She was not surprised at all, she had been through this with him for years. She spent 40mins on the phone with me telling me all about the therapy she has gone through and how damaging he is to her and their son. It was like she was relieved to have someone to talk to about it with. I felt really sorry for her. He came back to me a few months later, things just kept getting worse and worse. I haven’t seen him in ten years and I’d like to keep it that way. It helps that he lives in another country.

          7. Joanne says:

            Wow! I think I recall you mentioning that before about the wife. Pretty wild that she talked with you for that long. That must’ve been a surreal conversation for you both.

            Regarding your other reply, I too felt that there was, at times, a real connection as well. But the intimacy is a loss of control, therefore they must reject it. I’m sure this is our ET causing us to think this way but I feel like I must believe there is at least *some* human within him.

          8. Twisted Heart says:

            Hi Joanne,

            These replies are not in any chronological order. Sorry.

            It was surreal Joanne. I just sat and listened to her. I barely said anything beside hi my name is and I need to tell you that I have had a child with your husband. My son was about 2 weeks old and it was Valentine’s Day. I was upset that he kept promising that he was coming to finally meet our child (he lived in Scotland and I’m in Canada) and he yelled at me that day for putting pressure on him. I couldn’t hold it in any longer.

            He had always made her out to be manipulative, that she trapped him and she controlled the money. Her story was very different. Maybe they were both true, who knows but from that point on I have always tried to understand both sides of a story. I also learned to believe other women. It seems like as women, out of our own insecurities and needs of validation, that we will always side with the man because it makes us look better and more attractive.

            He actually called me a few hours later and smoothed it all over. Showed accountability and remorse. Did not blame me for doing what I did. He was so good at this game. I gave him so many more chances after that.

            I learned a lot from that relationship and I have the best son in the world. So handsome and smart with such a huge heart❤️ So it wasn’t for nothing.

          9. Joanne says:

            Wow, I was not aware that you had his child! How old is he? Is he involved in your son’s life at all now? I’m sure the distance alone puts a pretty high bar there and probably a good thing… And is he still with the wife? How strange and sad that she found a confidante in you for those moments. And then here he comes later on to smooth it over with you. Disgusting.

            I’m sure it was gut wrenching for you but I am glad you went to the wife. Firstly in retaliation (yes, ET but justifiable) but also to get the validation on what he is. Different circumstances of course, but I would love a chat with his ex. I’m sure I’d hear a much different version than ALL the stories he’d told me 🙄

        3. Jenna says:

          Hi Twisted Heart,

          God, sounds like we knew the same person. Really all mids are so similar.

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Jenna ,
            Sometimes I wonder if there are other women on here who have encountered the same narc. What I wouldn’t give to meet another woman who has gone through this with him specifically. That would give me so much satisfaction. We don’t really share the same social circles or interests though so I don’t think I would ever meet one of his victims.

            And yes they are empty inside therefore soooooo boring. And he always contradicted himself and he would make a point of letting me know of his contradictory behaviour. My friend called him a boring mystery while we were trying to figure him out. She had him pegged as a narc pretty early on but it didn’t ring true with what I imagined a narcissist to be. She also thinks he knows what he is and he just doesn’t care and most likely does not get a lot attention from real women. She used to be in web cam porn and she said she’s seen a lot of disturbing things from men that no woman should ever experience. Most likely he is an online creep and when I came along he didn’t know what to do with me and that’s why the crazy came out so fast. His social skills were really lacking.

            HG I’m also wondering if the narcissism progresses quicker or becomes more prevalent when there is a lack of fuel and therefore harder to control the facade? He may not be aware of what he is but he was clearly disordered from my point of view.

            This really helps me to write about this stuff so I can remember what a weirdo he was. I was in love with him though so what does that say about me?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Where fuel levels drop to a perilous level, the façade will become harder to maintain which means the effect of ignited fury manifests more often.

          3. jenna says:

            Hi TH,

            I often wonder the same thing – if there is narc overlap around here lol! Your friend is quite intuitive to realize he’s a narc. Yes it does help to recall the weird stuff they did. I myself was experiencing abuse amnesia the other day, so I looked at old texts and it literally made me nauseous when reading. It was full of arrogance, superiority, keeping the upper hand, contradicting me (during deval). Thanks for your thoughts!

      3. shesaw says:

        Joanne, that has to be emotional thinking.
        Logic would leave you with “what’s so good about me then?!” 😎

        1. Joanne says:

          Thanks for the reminder, shesaw 😉 That is how I will try to look at it from now on. My eyes should be too wide open now to blame myself at this point 👊🏼

          1. shesaw says:

            I was joking actually, but sometimes change accelerates with a conscious switch of perspective indeed. Rooting for you!

          2. Twisted Heart says:

            Good day Joanne😊
            Thanks for your reply.

            First I must say that It’s nice to find a confidante on here as well. Some more silver lining in all of this. I’ve never been part of forums or chat groups but everyone is so supportive and there is just so much valuable information and many different perspectives to consider. I’ve spent hours reading and sharing, imagine how much this would cost in therapy!!! I’m all for free education though, so thanks HG.

            He was 11 years older than me. I was 26 when we met. I used to work for his brother and we met when he came to visit for Christmas. I see his brother from time to time and he told me that he is doing well. The best he’s ever seen him. So maybe the edge does wear off as they get older. As far as I know they are still together. He has no relationship with my son and we’re a-okay with that. He wasn’t here when he was born so he never signed the birth certificate and because he lives in another country I wasn’t able to enforce child support. These are all more blessings in disguise because he has zero rights.

            I can only imagine what stories he would have had to tell her about me in order for her to let him stay with her. A major downfall with being an empath is the constant ruminating and truth seeking but having to lie and triangulate all the time must be exhausting. I guess It’s all fuel though so it probably energizes them. Huh..I think I’m finally starting to get the hang of this stuff.

          3. Joanne says:

            Hi TH
            I agree on being able to have confidantes within this group! There are not many other places (none?) where I could share the details of my entanglement (and infidelity) without judgement, and get such warm support.

            You were so young when you became involved with your narc 🙁 And yes it is a blessing in disguise that your narc did not sign the birth certificate, and thus has no rights. You’re way better off, both you and your son.

            I also sometimes think that the narc way of life has to be exhausting and frustrating. But, then again, they don’t know any other way. I was watching the Ted Bundy tapes and at the end, after he’s confessed, he makes an interesting statement, “I’m in the enviable position, to be without guilt.” Made me think of HG and the concept of being weighed down by all the emotions we experience (as empaths), etc. I guess we’ll never truly understand and that’s fine by me 😉

    4. Jenna says:

      Hi Mommypino,

      I agree with you. I have known a mid and a greater and I believe a familial upper lesser. The mid was the most dangerous for me (this may not be the case for others). The familial UL was in my face so others would sympathize with me. The greater was in my face, so confrontation actually happened, which allowed me to release my feelings. With the mid, alot of silence which was very very anxiety provoking. They think they owe no explanation and arrogantly walk off into the sunset.

      1. Jenna says:

        I would like to add that in my experience (again it may be different for others), a greater welcomes challenge fuel, which at least gives you the chance to vent yourself. The mids dislike it, and just tell you to ‘stop!’ or else they will leave, so you don’t even get to speak your mind. At least here we can ‘vent (our) spleen’ thanks to the friendly psychopath HG! ‘Friendly psychopath’ was coined by another commenter, but I can’t remember her/his name. Please identify yourself if you read this!

      2. mommypino says:

        Jenna, same for me. I also feel that for me the Mid-Ranger was more damaging. I was solely raised by a Lower Lesser matrinarc and she was tyrannical, engulfing and humiliated and criticized me so much. But for some reason I still had a lot of self confidence even though there were times that I almost couldn’t bear my lack of freedom. I was still achieving in school, active in school theater and was winning competitions in school. I just thought that my mom was not smart and t didn’t affect the way that I looked at myself that much although I still thought that I was unfortunate. And I might have also had C-PTSD from my mom being too verbally abusive but I still never lost the belief in the good things about myself. I migrated in the US to meet my dad and half siblings and unfortunately my half sister was a Mod-Ranger (she passed away already). Her silent treatments and her ‘neutral’ affect towards me took a toll on my self esteem. She always told me that “You are a nice person but I could never love you because you’re a reminder of our dad’s infidelity to my mom.” Unlike my matrinarc, she was charming, intelligent, beautiful, and highly cultured. So I thought that I was the problem and I was hard to love. Thankfully from this blog I realized with the pattern of her behavior that she was the one who had the problem. I have read in an article here that silent treatments are killers. They really are. And the Mid-Rangers love silent treatments. I tried to give my husband a silent treatment before when I was mad at him but I couldn’t keep it up. It doesn’t feel right. Someone has to have a really cold heart to be able to keep up giving a silent treatment to someone that he or she is living with.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi Mommypino,

          I’m sorry you had to deal with a lower lesser mother. At the same time, I’m happy to read that it didn’t affect the way that you looked at yourself. That in itself is a huge accomplishment. Yes the mids have a great facade and are well liked, leaving you doubting yourself. As you say they have a ‘neutral’ attitude which leaves you wondering what they are thinking, if they are even thinking (about you), and it is very damaging to us. Continued healing to you mommypino. It was nice interacting with you as I have seen you are quite active on the blog. When did you join?

          1. mommypino says:

            Thank you Jenna! I looked it up and my first comment was on the article “Dirty Empath – Infidelity”. I posted my first comment on Sept. 2018. I have been reading at the blog for about a week before I posted my first comment. But for about the first few weeks of my commenting, I was just reading the articles and not the comments. Thank you for your wishes of healing. It was nice to share experiences with you as well. 💕

      3. Twisted Heart says:

        Hi Jenna,
        Yes that friend of mine is very intuitive and she knows me better than anyone. When the narc and I decided to give it another try after not seeing each other for two months, she called me two days before I went to see him to check if I was ok because she had a dream that something really bad happened to me. She lives in another city and had no idea that I was talking to him again. When I told her that I was seeing him that weekend she was like “Noooooooooo!!!! But I love you and support you no matter what.”
        Of course I still went even though I had a bad feeling about it myself but I needed answers. Silly Empath!

        1. Jenna says:

          (Having trouble posting)

        2. Jenna says:

          Hi TH,

          If this comes through twice, I apologize. Nice to have a friend like that! Well now you know better and to GOSO. Continued healing to you TH🌷

          1. Twisted Heart says:

            Thanks Jenna.
            Happy Healing to you too❤️

      4. Narc noob says:

        Hey Jenna, nice to meet you. The silent treatment is a big warning sign for me. I have seen it in my extended family being played out for weeks at a time. It’s something I abhor and will eventually walk myself.

        What of your greater? Why wasn’t he the most problematic for you?

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi Narc Noob,

          Cute name and nice to meet you too! Yes the silent treatment is a big warning. I just did not realize at the time that it was a silent treatment. I thought it was just ‘needing space’ or something. I know better now. The greater never gave silent treatments and I think that is the manipulation i cannot handle. It’s kind of like the narc – ‘love me hate me never ignore me’ – which leaves me thinking that I’m similar to narcs in this aspect. I would rather talk it out (even if it is confrontational and argumentative) than be subjected to silence. But no more do I even have to choose one of those not so ideal options because of GOSO (tm Hg Tudor)!

    5. Anm says:

      I agree. I also believe what also makes a midranger dangerous, is the fact they do not have a backbone. They tend to be cowards, and not have an opinion of their own. They are often followers, so they will piggy back and help with the dirty work of a lesser or greater. They often do not have a logical reason to do the bidding for another narcissist, but it is in their nature to piggy back. Can you imagine living your life like that? And yes, there are so many of them out there.

      1. HG Tudor says:


  18. Gina says:

    Please keep writing about mid rangers. Unfortunately they are EVERYWHERE!!

  19. mommypino says:

    HG, is it possible for an Upper Mid-Ranger to have a non apologetic bad ass type of persona instead of a self righteous vulnerable persona common to Mid-Rangers? Are ther Mid-Rangers who doesn’t look or act like victims?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The UMR can be confused for the greater by the unaware and yes, does not adopt the pity play/victim approach anywhere near as much as the MMR or LMR.

      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you HG!

    2. Supernova DE says:

      HG, regarding the below question from mommypino:
      “HG, is it possible for an Upper Mid-Ranger to have a non apologetic bad ass type of persona instead of a self righteous vulnerable persona common to Mid-Rangers? Are ther Mid-Rangers who doesn’t look or act like victims?”

      Is it possible for MMRN or UMRN to switch between these two personas as needed and depending on if the appliance is painted white or black?

      Thank you.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is possible, although they will adopt one persona more often. MMR are generally the cry babies of the Mid Rangers and the UMR more ‘kick ass’.

        1. mommypino says:

          Thank you for that distinction HG. Now I have a couple of people that I finally know where to classify.

        2. Twisted Heart says:

          So if someone told a mid ranger that they were a narcissist and they took that info and googled what that means and identified with those traits does that realization make them a greater then?

          I really believe that he knew he was a narc based on things he said and his dating profile description but he doesn’t take care of himself (doesn’t eat well, drinks a lot, hangs out at dives), or have the flashiness/intelligence of what I consider a greater to be. He really had something against people with money and was very insecure and shameful. He could not take compliments very well and was genuinely shocked when I would offer to do something nice or show kindness towards him.

          When we first met I actually told my friends that he was too “vanilla” for me. Kind of boring actually. Turns out he’s the most fascinating creature I’ve ever come across.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, because they would not identify with them.

          2. nunya biz says:

            I think self awareness is a far deeper experience and requires far more self reflection than can be managed by a midrange. Even being aware of manipulating and doing it on purpose is not deep enough.
            I am faaaar more aware and self aware than my husband, but he sees it differently.

            Btw, TH, I appreciate this thread and your comments and referenced it in the “Does the Narcissist Know What He is Doing” post.

          3. Twisted Heart says:

            So he’s a greater with poor health habits and severe low self esteem? The first day that we started texting he told me he was an angel but mostly 😈. I thought he was just being naughty but I think he may actually be the devil. And now that I look back he has a super rapey vibe about him.

            I know, I know. I should do the narc detector consultation😉 I’m just wondering if I care enough to bother.

          4. Jenna says:

            Twisted Heart and others,

            Just wondering if what Twisted Heart said about them being ‘boring’ resonates with others? The mmrn I knew was boring when I think about it. I think it has to do with them being empty so they don’t really know what to talk about. Nor do their views remain constant because I think they don’t really have any views, so their statements can completely change from one day to the next. I’m referring to world views, opinions about different things etc.

            One thing I realized recently. Yes they are polite and kind but I think doing that constantly is hard for them. Thus, they can’t keep it up. Mean behavior will follow. If you protest, they will be kind again because of facade maintainance, but it taxing for them, so they prefer to be alone, stay silent, do nothing, say nothing, etc.

          5. mommypino says:

            Jenna, on the boring aspect, it was not the case with my MRE sister. She always knew something about almost every subject. She loved traveling and was a foodie and was well-read. She loved critiquing movies and was extremely disgusted at me one time I rented A Fast and Furious movie for us to watch. She was so posh and cultured and I was her uncultivated half sister love child of our dad from Asia lol. But yeah, it wasn’t the case with my narc sister. She was far from boring. But she didn’t have any strong opinions like you said. She never voted. She was an atheist but she just didn’t care. But she was passionate about dogs and highly opinionated about how people should be more loving towards dogs.

          6. jenna says:

            Hi Mommypino,

            “… I was her uncultivated half sister love child of our dad from Asia” lol! You know that you are far from uncultivated right? I read many of your comments and you seem well read, very articulate, and your comments are well thought out. She was a mid after all, so please ignore her baseless thoughts. Maybe the male mids are more boring than the female mids? I don’t know I’m just thinking out loud. I think that females in general talk more. Men talk less, and then couple that with midrange npd and you have a boring mix! I wonder why your sister was so passionate about dogs. Maybe part of the facade as a caring animal lover?

          7. mommypino says:

            Lol thank you Jenna! I also know a male Upper Cerebral Mid who isn’t boring. I actually thought that he was a Greater but now I think that he is an Upper Mid with a bad ass bully personality. He gets his fuel from picking on people where it makes them confused and I can tell that he loves the expression on people’s face as he picks on them and triangulated them. With my sister I think that it was a big part of her facade. She totally milked every attention that she got from it. When she meets someone new who praises her dog she would tell the story about how she rescued the dog and was able to find out the reason for her skin allergies and how much money she spent to fix it and now she looks beautiful. Another story was the stray German Shepherd that she rescued in Hong Kong when she was living there and she flew the dog over to the US. She couldn’t just have a dog and be normal about it like most people. She had to have extraordinary stories behind her dogs which showed how much of a hero she was to them.

          8. mommypino says:

            By the way Jenna, sorry about my inconsistent tenses. It is challenging for me because we don’t expressed tenses differently in my native tongue. And it’s hard to proofread on my phone.

          9. mommypino says:

            Lol I did it again. I wanted to type, we don’t express tenses the same way or we express tenses differently but somehow they got mixed as I was typing lol.

          10. jenna says:


            Not a problem. I didn’t even notice!

          11. jenna says:

            Hi Mommypino,

            You’re welcome. I guess only some of them are boring then. I was under the impression that it is more universal amongst mids. HG also clarified it for me.
            About picking on people, the mmrn I knew did that too. He liked being sarcastic and belittling others (only certain people). I think he enjoys being mean. One time he said to me ‘some people are bad and proud of it’ and it later occured to me that he was talking about himself. Heartless.
            “She couldn’t just have a dog and be normal about it like most people.”
            Lol! Sounds like she definitely uses it for facade management. I guess they need fuel any way they can get it! Thanks for sharing that. I love funny narc stories!

          12. nunya biz says:

            Jenna that rings true to me.

          13. jenna says:

            Hi Nunya,

            So it’s settled then? The male mids are totally boring!😂
            HG would you be so kind to consider an article on why some male mids are so boring?

          14. HG Tudor says:

            They are not all boring.

          15. jenna says:

            Well my experience is limited. Thank you HG!

          16. Twisted Heart says:


            I’m glad you can relate and made reference to this thread. I love your avatar btw. The Strength card is my favourite of the Tarot.

            Is your husband a mid ranger? Do you know what kind of empath you are? Or are you a greater N? Please don’t take offense to that. I am non judgemental about these labels now. We’re all just doing our best to get by. I’m just curious about your level of self awareness and how it relates to the dynamic between you and your husband.

          17. Twisted Heart says:

            I think you’re right about it being taxing on them to maintain the facade. In person, I seen so many sides to him but we never really had a real conversation. It was mostly just sex and silent treatment, sprinkled with insults and the odd compliment here and there. However, over text, we could chat all day long. We had great banter and I found him very sweet and funny. I think having me at a safe distance via text helped him feel more in control and therefore more relaxed.
            Poor guy. Such odd little creatures.

          18. jenna says:

            Hi TH,

            Thanks for your reply. Hg told me that some prefer texting so that they can multitask, like texting many sources at once. Just remember that the sweetness is all fake. I was fooled by the sweetness factor too. It is hard for them to be sweet. So they eventually drop the act and the creature emerges lol!

          19. nunya biz says:

            No offense at all, TH.
            According to HG I am a Super with a lot of Carrier cadre. It has taken me a lot to start to understand what that means and also who would be considered a Greater narc. I was talking to my husband today, I think he is working for a female greater temporarily as a consultant (she’s an attorney, and
            I don’t want to meet her, thanks!). I did have to sit through a dinner with an (male) UMR, almost LG maybe, cerebral with him one time who for some reason took some offense to me.

            I believe my husband is a midrange. I understand why you were asking about greater, because I said I am more aware than he is : ) But I also think he has some nicer, more amenable qualities than some of them, so I have a hard time even saying it, but he has undeniable narc traits regardless, my main issue is simply his permanent lack of understanding of how I feel and being the impassioned, highly emotional person that I am it probably causes me more difficulty than it might someone else.
            From what I’ve been able to discern for myself, I’ve always paired up with narcissists, both as relationship partners and as female friends, almost all midrange. Always. My only sibling, sister, is a midrange narcissist also. Someone asked me once if I knew a person was a narcissist beforehand. The answer is no. But I’m pretty sure I can smell them : P.

            Funny, today at lunch I said to my husband, again, that he is MRN. I really shouldn’t bother and in that particular type of situation I have come to see it as probably one of the less empathic things I could do, but he is getting a very slow insight into the people around him so it’s not all bad.
            But he asked the same question, he asked if a midrange can come post on here knowing they are a narcissist or find out and if they would then be a greater and I said no. And I said if after a lot of convincing and sorting and undeniable evidence they become aware they probably are a narc they will say they are a greater (or a psychopath, as people on here have witnessed) because as a narcissist they will want to be the best one or to sound the most terrifying. My current take is that the Greaters can pull far more strings and the manipulations are more than just intentionally hurting someone with knowledge of doing it (and empaths can do that too anyway). I think there is also an underlying awareness of what everyone else is doing and why so they can manipulate on a larger scale and with far more confidence that is unrestrained. There is more awareness than “oh, I’m an asshole, I can’t deny it to myself any longer” and then trying to pump oneself up about it. And it’s just not possible to pick up that kind of awareness by doing some reading. It takes a LOT of comprehension of the motives of everyone and those kinds of people, because of less concern for others or emotional reactivity or self-questioning of motives that other people have, are often able to accrue some power.
            We are lucky to have HG to explain it to us or we would not have insight to it.

            That is my current take, not sure if it is all correct.

          20. nunya biz says:

            Thank you, Twisted Heart about the avatar! I also love the strength card : ).

          21. nunya biz says:

            Ha, Jenna, my husband is boring. Also, my sister, despite that I suspect she is elite cadre is very boring.
            I have a CoD friend who met both eventually. She had gotten to know me pretty well and she called my sister “vanilla” and my husband a “wet noodle” and told me she was confused about my husband because she said I’m like color and he’s like gray.
            She actually likes my husband and there’s more to things than that and he really can be funny and smart and she wasn’t trying to be mean, but I just remember those comments after the first time meeting them.

          22. Jenna says:

            Hi Nunya,

            I did not get this comment in my inbox and happened to stumble on it here. It is funny how you just matter of fact say that your husband is boring and your sister very boring. Lol! I absolutely relate to this! In fact, sometimes it became boring with a creepy vibe – hard to explain but I’m sure you know what I mean!

          23. nunya biz says:

            Yes I do, Jenna!

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