The Narcissist’s Reality Gap


The Lesser Narcissist. Whether it is the out and out loser that is the Lower Lesser, the usually useless Middle Lesser or the successful but overbearing bully that is the Upper Lesser, the three have certain common traits. One of these traits is their delusional state. The Lesser exists in a bubble convinced of his or her good looks or innate strength or irresistible sexiness. They think everybody likes them, they think if you don’t then you must be an idiot and you are not worth bothering with. They believe themselves to be great at sport, or writing, or whatever hobby and if they do not win or receive an accolade well the game was fixed, the paint was the wrong sort or the judges are retarded. After all, anybody who cannot see that the Lesser is a swaggering champion, well, they must need their head seeing to, right?

The Lesser cruises through life doing what he or she wants, taking whatever they want, behaving as they please and nobody is allowed to stop or interfere with this god-given right. They are completely oblivious to their shortcomings – that bloated beer belly just shows a certain joie de vivre, going bald is a sign of virility, wearing that same jacket is a mark of classic attire. Their narcissism enables them to maintain their perceived superiority (where often none exists) through the application of this delusion. They just do not see their failings, their inadequacies and failures. The self-defence mechanism of the Twin Lines of Defence will either deny any such failing or deflect it away by ascribing it to being the fault of someone or something else. Thus, the Lesser escapes culpability, maintains superiority, gathers fuel and barrels through his or her life wreaking havoc all around and never suffering consequences.

Now, the fuel crisis will cause the bubble to burst, but this article is not about the effect of the fuel crisis but rather the reality gap. When fuelled, the Lesser suffers no reality gap whatsoever. He or she is oblivious and served totally by the delusions of their narcissistic perspective because that is what enables them to exist and function.

What then of the Greater? There is no doubting that the Greater can point to substance to support those bold pronouncements. Look at the money, the high status career, the successful public life, the adoring crowds, the power that is wielded, the records made, the books sold, the art created, the countries invaded, the factories opened, the gadgets invented and the elections won. From captain of industry, Olympic champion, pop star, politician, royal, leader, spin doctor, fixer, striving executive, acclaimed actor, feted artists through to hundreds of other positions and roles, the Greater populates the higher echelons of achievement. His or her narcissism has enabled such an ascent. With no sense of remorse, no conscience, the desire to be the best, a total belief in one’s ability, a sense of entitlement and operating with absolute expediency it is little wonder that the Greater narcissists clamber into these positions.

Is there delusion with the Greater? Indeed and it manifests in the form of embellishment and exaggeration because the innate paranoia of the narcissist means that it is never enough. He may be popular but he sees that he is immensely popular because the narcissism demands it. The narcissism enabled him to scale the heights of political power to begin with and then feeds the need to stay there and want more and more and more because non sufficit orbit terrarum.

Thus the Greater will have considerable power but sees its reach as being even further. He has wealth but embellishes its degree. The narcissistic perspective insists on there being a reality greater than there is. It is even better than the real thing. The combination of that which has been achieved and the belief in added achievement results in the application of power on a tremendous scale, which in turns feeds the narcissism. Round and round it goes. There may be a reality gap, but similar to the Lesser, it is not apparent to the Greater save when the effects of a fuel crisis manifest.

What of the Mid-Range Narcissist? He or she can also achieve. Not on the scale of the Greater but beyond the Lesser. The Mid Range Narcissist, particular Middle Mid Range and Upper Mid Range will secure success, good jobs, excellent incomes, academic achievements, sporting achievements and so forth. Many friends, well-liked by family and the community (that good old facade at work there) and convinced of their own innate goodness.

However one of the fundamental differences between the Lesser and Greater Narcissists compared to the Mid Ranger is the basis on which the application the reality gap operates. The Lesser’s superiority is based on aggressive provocation, albeit in a rudimentary and base manner. The Greater’s superiority is also based on aggressive provocation but in a far more streamlined, refined and magnificent manner. The Mid-Ranger’s perceived superiority has its foundation placed on passive provocation – the silent treatments, the jealous smearing, the office politicking, the pity plays and so forth.

The consequence of this is that this passive, defensive superiority, as opposed to the driving, thrusting aggressive superiority of the other two schools, results in the Mid Range Narcissist suffering periodic reality gaps. He of course will have them and in a massive way as a consequence of a fuel crisis but as stated above, that is not the subject of this article.

The Mid Range Narcissist is afflicted by episodic instances of a detachment between his narcissistic perspective and reality. This is part of his narcissism because this is what enables him or her to operate in a passive aggressive manner through seeking sympathy, exhibiting jealousy, inviting pity and demanding help and support. The Mid Range Narcissists will occasionally get a glimpse of what he is as opposed to what he wants to be. He suddenly sees he is the middle manager salary man and not on the fast track to the board. Whereas the Lesser sees he is holding a semi-skilled position on the factory floor he either sees that as what is best for him and he wouldn’t want to be a “white collar wanker” or he believes he has never made it to management because the existing managers are cocksuckers who are clueless and have no idea how to run a company. The Greater is either at the board already or on his way. The Mid Range Narcissist once believing he was destined for that executive position suddenly realises he is not. He once believed he brought influence to bear beyond his current status because he was talented and just ripe for promotion, he is suddenly aware that this is not the case. The football career was not as glittering as he wanted it to be. She is not as popular as she wants to be. She isn’t able to win the races as she desires to.

The shortfall between what the Mid Range wants to be and believes him or herself to be and what they actually are manifests and delivers a crushing blow to the Mid Range. It can come out of nowhere, a sudden fountain of self-loathing which surges up unexpected and unwelcome. The Mid Range Narcissist immediately seeks to escape this reality gap by complaining, raging, sulking or smearing. Their jealousy of those who are what the Mid Range wants to be is unfettered. Their dejection at their position requires immediate succour from those around them, to flow with pity and sympathy until the moment has passed and with it the danger to their existence.

Accordingly, should you ever witness a Mid Range Narcissist exhibiting some kind of panic attack, a wailing and bemoaning of his or her lot in life even though there is no fuel crisis evident, then you have witnessed the appearance of the Mid Range narcissist’s reality gap.

101 thoughts on “The Narcissist’s Reality Gap

  1. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG if an MMR who developed a very serious back problem to get out of something he didn’t want to do then goes to a miracle back doctor who waves his hands over his back without touching it then taps him on the ankle and all of a sudden the back pain he had for a few weeks (which given the severity would have likely lasted years).

    Does he believe he had the back pain in the first place?
    Does he believe his back was miraculously cured?

    Or does he know he was just talking total tosh?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You seem to have missed a few words out.

      1. If it necessitates the assertion of control, yes, he had back pain.
      2. If he is now stating that he no longer has back pain, then he has been cured.

      He will not know he is talking “total tosh”.

      1. oh yes ahaha I meant to say on the end that he was cured. Lucky you ‘get me’!

        Answer hugely appreciated. But this is just madness! total madness! Although I kind of understand this to be the case, its one of the hardest things to get my head around. Honestly the hardest.

        I guess it would be similar then if an N makes false allegations about someone, totally made up such as in an extreme example of rape that even in a case where they were not raped or anything of the like, they would believe that they were?

        Just so hard to grasp.

        But thank you for your wonderful answer.

    2. Kim e says:

      alexissmith2016. My N actually told me he strained his butt cheek to get out of sex. Thank goodness he told me this in a text. If he would have said it to my face, I would be painted black forever along with the longest silent treatment ever as I laughed MY BUTT CHEEK off…………!!!!!!!!!

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Oh god Kim e – that is hilarious! His butt cheek!! like what the hell did we ever see in these people??!!!???!?!?!?!? Thing is even if you’d have laughed in his face, yes it would have been a critisism but he would still not realise how preposterous it was

        1. Kim e says:

          His butt cheeks are yummy……LOL

          1. lol Kim e nnnnoooooooooooooooooooo

  2. Bella says:

    HG could you please do a post on Michael Jackson specifically?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is on the to do list.

    2. Dolores Haze says:

      Which reminds me of… My ex-Narc grooms very young girls online and doesn’t hide it very well. At least one of the girls of the few I’ve investigated is only 15, and there is no way he didn’t know her real age. HG, how does his narcissism excuse him doing that when he has a daughter the same age (what if someone does it to her?) and his facade of being a good & wonderful person is so important to him? Empathy for children aside, it’s a criminal offense and could ruin his high-flying career, which is everything to him. Why keep doing this?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Sense of control, sense of entitlement, lack of accountability, arrogance, grandiosity, need for fuel, lack of emotional empathy.

        1. AnneB says:

          Hey Dolores, I wish I hadn’t just read your comment. With respect and compassion to you I really have to ask, if you know for a fact this person is ‘grooming’ underage girls on the net, should he not be reported to some body or other? Is there some kind of hotline or something where people can at least report their suspicions? II appreciate and fully understand that you are not obliged to answer, and please know I in no way require an answer. As I read the comment, I felt I had no choice to but to voice my concern.

  3. NarcAngel says:

    I was a fan of Michael Jacksons creative genius in dance, video, and music. I did not know early on that he was a narcissist but always believed he was a pedophile. I believed people looked the other way or refused to entertain the thought because they did not want to acknowledge that they could admire anything about a person that would be able to do these things. Also money, attention, and fame can cause people to gloss over what they know to be true or what they would not accept in anyone they would not normally subscribe to. I was more interested in the mindset of the parents enabling him to do what he did. I understood (but did not condone of course) why he did what he did. He was sick. I did NOT understand the parents. If I allowed my child to spend large parts of the day with him that would be one thing, allowing them to sleep in a bed with a grown man when I am right there in the household (as some parents were) reeks to me of something else. I also came to consider that they could also be narcissists Now his music is being banned some places etc, and someone made a good point – about how his music was good for some people and helped them through some hard times. Everyone is different and to each their own decision. Mine is that I will continue to enjoy the creative contributions of Michael Jackson while rejecting the more undavoury elements of his personality. Just as I embrace the education and insight HG offers to us here and to the world on narcissism but do not embrace his treatment of his victims. Just as I do not condone the treatment people suffered at the hands of Steve Jobs, but appreciate his genius while keying this on my ipad with my iphone nearby. There are many other pioneers that we celebrate but do not know about their narcissism. We would have to give up a lot of things. The truth is they change the world. They do horrible things. They do great things. It is up to us to decide boundaries in what we will and will not accept.

    1. Claire says:

      Extraordinary comment. You really nailed it.

  4. WhoCares says:

    amanda SNapchat,

    I know you addressed NarcAngel but I thought I’d offer a comment as well, because I understand your point. I want to have some empathy for the parents since they could also fall under the category of “duped” in this instance (and as a parent I could possibly see susceptible) but still the parents had some part in pulling the wool over their own eyes.

    1. amanda SNapchat says:

      you are right. They did have responsability. Thank you

  5. princesssuperempath says:

    Dearest HG: I caught the mid-ranger in the reality gap about 3 times and swiftly fixed it by saying something or texting him. It worked all 3 times. The last time, however, when he canceled a meeting with me that I wanted with him to help him with his future (and also to continue my interaction with him, of course), about a project, he perked up tremendously and made an appointment, and then of course gaslighted me on it and never rescheduled to this day. I never brought it up again, after reading your work and listening to your videos. He has to be in control and saw what I did, even though it would help him, and refused so that he could be in control, and not need me. I saw the full picture. I helped him to future fake. He is shocked I can tell, that I have never brought it back up. I have taken the project on for myself, but very quietly. However, that great despondency and agitation coming from my “idol“ I found heartbreaking to me, those 3 times. I just did not know what to call it, until now: Reality Gap. Once the reality gap was repaired by me, my devaluation and silent treatment, etc. etc. continued as usual. However, I know he will try to take the project from me, if I pull it off successfully. Because he will see it as an extension of himself done by his appliance. Me.

  6. flutterbymorpho says:

    Is there an article about the fuel crisis? Thanks 🙂

    1. K says:

      There is no single article on narcsite about a fuel crisis, however, the book Fuel goes into detail about how important it is for the narcissist and how the loss of fuel adversely affects the construct.

      HG Tudor
      OCTOBER 4, 2016 AT 09:08
      Hello Violet, if our fuel goes too low we enter a depressed state. A restlessness which is akin to anxiety is experienced when fuel stocks start to dwindle.

  7. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG Tudor, when a reality gap occurs, is this when bipolar can be diagnosed?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I imagine that could be an outcome, yes.

  8. Jess says:

    Dear HG: this is such an amazingly accurate description of mid-rangers! Their reality gap is tangible, you just need to pay attention to what they let slip. And they do because they just cannot maintain their alleged amazingness all the time.

  9. lisk says:

    This article confirms that my ex-narc was Mid-Range.

    Unless…can a Greater feign MRN reality gap for sympathy?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A Greater would not take such a step.

  10. Sarah says:

    I have witnessed so-called panic attacks from my mid-ranger. There has been times when he very much convinced me that there was someone human and caring underneath it all, which played a huge part in me replying to his hoovers, no matter how badly he treated me. There was always this niggling ‘is he hurt underneath the façade? I must take care of him’ going on inside my mind. A tug of war.

  11. Pauline says:

    HG, do you thing that Michael Jackson was a narcissist? Mid Ranger or the Greater?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes I do. Greater – he knew precisely what was going on and played the little boy act with aplomb.

      1. kathy0720 says:

        Interesting HG.

      2. WhoCares says:


        I find this interesting. He played such a big part of my youth…not that I was a huge fan but he just loomed large everywhere…psychologically he did play on the ‘confused’ little boy thing…he was definitely ‘interstitial’ – or played on it: not quite white/not quite black…not quite masculine/not quite feminine…

        If he was a Greater – did he not play on being ‘the victim’ a bit too much? Or the ‘misunderstood artist’ syndrome? I thought it was below Greaters to do this?

        *sorry if this came through twice

        1. HG Tudor says:

          His supporters played the victim card/the persecuted card/the misunderstood tortured artist card on his behalf, he did not play them.

          1. WhoCares says:

            I see. But if he was a Greater – wouldn’t he also know better than to get caught abusing children?

          2. WhoCares says:

            You don’t have to answer that one…I likely don’t know enough about the later details of his career (and the sexual abuse accusations) to have an opinion…I just know the whole thing leaves me with a feeling of ‘ick’…I guess that’s part of his legacy now.

          3. WhoCares says:

            Can we have a happy ending when we find out your story HG?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t be so filthy!

          5. WhoCares says:

            Haha – well, who doesn’t like a happy ending?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Was he actually convicted?

          7. WhoCares says:

            Exactly. I’ve not watched the documentary or followed the later details of his career or the fallout of the sexual abuse allegations…hence my follow up comment to you. I find the whole thing distasteful. But I’ve always thought of him as an interesting icon/symbol.

          8. WhoCares says:

            Actually, if I follow my line of thinking through – and try to think like a Greater (haha!); MJ would not have cared (and this is not going to be a popular observation) about the consequences of a few…and long term…down the line (if Greaters do indeed think this way) – this actually draws attention to the damage that childhood abuse does – and to the things that get ‘hidden’ more because we don’t actually want to look too closely at it.

            But I don’t think it happened as result of his own planning – despite that Greaters claim to not do things haphazardly.

            It’s only a perspective.

          9. WhoCares says:

            Or perhaps it’s just that this winter – and the snow – is finally getting to me and the resulting cabin fever is having deleterious effects…

          10. WiserNow says:


            No, he wasn’t convicted. Michael Jackson was accused and went to court twice in relation to child sexual abuse allegations. The first time, in 1993, he settled out of court with the child’s family for a large sum (about $10 million I think) and denied the charges. The second time, in 2005, it was a criminal trial with a jury. He pleaded not guilty and the jury found him not guilty on all the charges.

            This latest documentary, Leaving Neverland, shows the way some of the boys were contacted to testify as witnesses and how they were coached and told how to respond to questioning in court. They denied any sexual misconduct. If they refused to testify or did not want to defend Michael, they were told they’d be shunned, criticised and persecuted by his lawyers and never allowed to contact him again. Basically, they’d be smeared.

            Looking back, it must have been extremely difficult for young boys to take on a global superstar like Michael Jackson in a legal battle. It’s a real-life David and Goliath story.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Hence part of reason why Greater – did it, but not punished

          12. WiserNow says:


            Yes, you’re right, he wasn’t punished while he was living.

            Now that the truth is becoming known and all the sordid details about him being a pedophile are out in the open, I think his fame and legacy will be badly affected though. So that’s a form of punishment, not for him directly as a mortal person, but for his reputation as a famous entertainer, his estate, his family, and his children.

            I wasn’t a big fan, but I did enjoy some of his songs and I thought he was talented as a singer and dancer. Now I don’t want to listen to his music and will never buy his music or watch anything about his music again. I think he was mentally ill and a criminal.

            I seriously question the motives and honesty of the parents that allowed their children to sleep with him in his bed and be with him for years too. I think any parent would be dubious about that and see that it wasn’t innocent or healthy.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            I agree.

          14. WhoCares says:


            Thanks for providing those details – I had considered doing some research…to be ‘in the know’ since I’m kinda house-bound anyway due to looking after my son who is ill – but seriously who wants to revisit all that? (I guess the victims would – wow, the doc is 3.5 hours long) It just extends his reach into the here and now – and apparently (as music sales can attest) bad publicity is as good as positive publicity.

            In my comments I was just musing out loud regarding MJ’s persona and what I now know about narcissism and Greaters. I hadn’t much spared MJ a thought (ooh, that’s insulting to a Greater) for decades but now see him in a different light with regard to HG’s teachings.

          15. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome WhoCares.

            I can understand how you don’t want to revisit all the awful details about MJ, especially if you’re busy with other things.

            For me, I find the whole MJ situation fascinating, because he was able to fool so many people, the whole world it seems, for so long, right under everyone’s nose. He was able to make it appear “normal” or at least, innocent, for a grown man to sleep with and spend his time with young boys. He made so many people, me included, suspend our disbelief. It seems unbelievable to me now, and yet, it definitely did happen.

            I am interested in learning just how he was able to do that, and to unravel the illusion in order to see how it could have happened and to be able to see more clearly in future.

            I also feel very sad for all the young boys involved. When I see their young, innocent and hopeful faces at that time and then think about how they were tricked and abused, it makes me feel very sad. I despair for the world sometimes. It sounds corny, but I just want there to be more trust and goodness overall. I guess by learning about how sordid and terrible the world can be, we are better able to “know” how to make it a better one. It’s a strange paradox.

          16. WhoCares says:


            I just saw this now as I didn’t get a notification of your reply. I understand your desire to grasp the situation with Michael Jackson as a ‘case study.’ And it is a great example how he created an illusion that drew people to him and then he betrayed their trust. I think part of me just resents that it extends his legacy into the here and now. MJ had his time. Yes, victims also need their time and to give voice to what happened to them.
            We know this kind of thing happens all the time though – this particular example simply puts it in our faces in a way that people have a hard time ignoring – or sweeping under the rug.
            I think what is interesting about this is that it opens an even bigger can of worms when you think about it. Some of the decisions to no longer play/support Michael Jackson’s music as a result invite the question of how do we look at how the contributions of various “superstars” and experts and the effect those contributions have on society. I know of peers of mine, back when MJ’s music was first popular, that would say his music or the music of other artists got them through some pretty tough times or inspired them to be more than they thought they could be. How do you weigh that against what has recently come to light?
            And what other contributions to society would we ban if we knew that the individual who made those contributions was actually an ‘abuser’?
            (I’m not excusing the abuse of the victims in MJ’s case but we know that there are likely other similar cases only they haven’t yet come to light. And as we see in the case of Michael Jackson; it creates extreme controversy.)

          17. WiserNow says:

            You raise some interesting points WhoCares. When MJ was at the height of his fame, his music was played everywhere all the time and he was admired and called the King of Pop. He would have influenced so many people and his ‘art’ was known and loved worldwide. How do you separate his art and his superstar achievements from the predator behind closed doors who was grooming and abusing small boys? I’m not sure. I don’t think you can, because it all came from the one man. I think we need to accept and understand that both of those extremes can exist in the same person.

            Personally, I think the damage he caused to innocent and vulnerable children casts a great big shadow on all his glittering musical achievements and superstar persona. If I think of him now, the main thought in my mind is that he was a liar and a pedophile. That’s me though, and I am not saying that everyone else should think the same way or that the music should be banned. I think it’s a case of people making up their own individual minds according to their own beliefs and views.

          18. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you WiserNow for sharing your perspective. I think you’ve very aptly captured the cognitive dissonance in the conflicting reality that is Michael Jackson.

          19. kel says:

            I’m glad to hear you say that about Michael Jackson’s narcissism, although I’m surprised to hear you call someone a greater, it makes sense. His music was too sexy for him to be some celibate innocent boy.

            Katharine Hepburn mentioned in her autobiography that Michael wanted to meet her, and came to her house and hung out with her and her friends. She said he was quiet and awkward. I wonder if he was studying her to copy something about her.

          20. JustEmpath says:

            Very true. Those flying monkeys were portraying him as victim. And he was playing boys, their parents and millions of people with ease. What a Grand Facade, what gestures, presents, ideology, cotery, success, perfect shows, calculative acts like marrying Elvis daughter (King’s Elvis daughter!)…oh he was the Greater for sure.

          21. Bella says:

            He played the victim card constantly, but being cerebral, he knew what he was doing and it was part of the facade. Playing the victim allowed him to be a criminal in plain sight. He also often compared himself to Jesus helping little children. Full blown cerebral narc. Very intelligent, you can tell that in his interviews.

        2. WhoCares says:

          About the ‘happy ending’…I just thought I’d put in my request now.

          Also, in my interstitial analysis of MJ – I neglected to add that he’s not quite a boy/not quite a man.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            He was whatever he needed to be at the time to get what he wanted. Black/white, man/child, victim/controller. It was interesting that when he asked one of the mothers to have her son live with him for a year and she said absolutely not, that he responded with: I always get what I want. He may have been a predator but those parents were complicit in pimping their kids out.

          2. WhoCares says:

            “He was whatever he needed to be at the time to get what he wanted. Black/white, man/child, victim/controller.”

            Great point NarcAngel.
            In addition, in physical appearance and voice, he was the epitome of the ‘middle’ of those opposites.

            Regarding the mother refusing to let her son live with him for a year, his response and your observation: again – ick!

          3. T.M.O33 says:

            Sorry narc angel. I find your observation delusional.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Hello T.M.033,

            Specifically which observation do you find delusional? You addressed NarcAngel but replied to my (WhoCares) comment – at least, I received a notification.

            Care to clarify?

          5. tmo33 says:

            Dear Who Cares,

            My response was originally for Narc Angel, she/he has commented only once in this post you can figure out which one I responded to.

            I have replied to the closest comment, so it can appear organized when it’s posted because I didn’t find a reply button to Narc Angel’s comment as I wasn’t signed up to the blog, but now I do.

            I hope that this solved the problem!

            And by the way, I have wrote a longer response earlier to HG, because I disagree that Michael Jackson is a narcissist. So, it’s good that you received the notification, so you can check the conversation if you are interested. (When HG post it).

            Also, I found your previous posts interesting.

          6. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for clarifying who and which comment your reply was directed at. However, you neglected to clarify which observation of NA’s you feel is delusional: her observation regarding Michael Jackson or regarding the parents being complicit – unless, perhaps, that was covered in the other comment you referenced.

          7. K says:

            Hmmmm… I wonder if T.M.O33 got a charge out of that comment.

          8. T.M.O33 says:

            Dear K,
            Am not sure what you mean by “I wonder if T.M.O33 got a charge out of that comment.” !

          9. K says:

            A TM-O33 is a type of charger used on dirt bikes.

          10. T.M.O33 says:

            K, thanks for the clarification. But I don’t like to be compared to a dirt bike charger!

          11. K says:

            You are welcome T.M.O33 and noted!

          12. WhoCares says:

            Lol, thanks K! I didn’t get the joke either at first; I’m a little slow on up take sometimes.

          13. K says:

            I know some narcissists who own(ed) ATVs, dirt bikes, mopeds, motorcycles and snow mobiles.

          14. WhoCares says:


            “…narcissists who own(ed) ATVs, dirt bikes, mopeds, motorcycles and snow mobiles.”

            Yikes. I’m surrounded by people who own ATVs, motorcycles and snow mobiles…thank goodness they aren’t ALL narcissists.

          15. amanda SNapchat says:

            NarcAngel: I don’t know about blaming the parents. They were in contact with a greater narc. They are hard to spot. So manipulative. The parents were victims too. let’s not blame the victims. The guy I thought was a greater reminds me so much of MJ 🙁 he can be whatever he wants to be

          16. WhoCares says:

            amanda SNapchat,

            I commented in response to your post; but I think it fell elsewhere in this thread, instead of under your comment.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            Are you assuming the parents are empaths and therefore victims?

          18. amanda SNapchat says:

            Great point Narc Angel. Maybe the parents are normies who are idiots? Michael jackson fooled the whole world.

      3. WhoCares says:

        One thing for sure; Michael Jackson was ‘interstitial’…not quite white/not quite black…not quite feminine/not quite masculine. He played that card well.

        But Greaters do understand about not fitting in…

      4. T.M.O.33 says:

        Sorry HG, I will have to disagree with you this time.

        With my full respect to your expertise in narcissism. I don’t agree that Micheal Jackson is a narcissist.

        Michael Jackson had a difficult childhood, yes. But this doesn’t guarantee that he is a narcissist.

        If you said that his father is a narcissist, I can accept it. But Not Michael Jackson.

        – MJ has showed empathy which I believe was genuine in many occasions.
        – MJ has been very patient in his sibling’s jealousy of him.
        – MJ loved his mother because she treated him and his siblings better than their father.
        – MJ showed a lot of love towards children, and he was inviting them for free to his “NeverLand”. He wanted them to live a happy childhood, in contrast to what he endured, and I can see that this comes from an empathic individual.
        – MJ, have been accused of child sexual abuse, but it appeared to be a false allegation, the people who did it wanted money from MJ.
        Micheal Jackson, later spent amount of his own money for the treatment of a child who belongs to the same family that accused him, and this also showed an empathy.

        Micheal Jackson has lost his childhood and he built to himself a world that can compensate this loss when he became older. But this have nothing to do with narcissism.

        Michael Jackson displayed ONLY healthy narcissism which was mainly a reason for his success.

        So, I can conclude that Micheal Jackson is a :

        – Super Empath, because he displayed healthy narcissism along with empathy.
        Elite, he enjoyed reading, dancing, performing and music. (Good physically and intellectually).
        Carrier cadre.

        And finally, I see myself in Michael Jackson, And I also belong to the same personality type that I descried above.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for sharing your view, you are incorrect, but nevertheless welcome to advance your observations.

          1. T.M.O33 says:

            Dear HG,

            I have a lot to say to defend my statement about Michael Jackson. I have wrote my observation based on an old facts that I knew about MJ. I didn’t know about the recent documentary “ Leaving NeverLand”, when I wrote my observation few days ago.

            There are a lot of clamor about the old allegation of sexual child abuse in the the meantime.

            Things are not clear yet whether the accusers are telling the truth or lying. Thus, I can’t defend MJ in this sense. Until I form a clearer view.

            What I am sure about and what I can defend MJ about is the fact that he is not a narcissist. He might have other problems such as sleep disorder BUT NEVER A MALIGNANT NARCISSIST. NEVER!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are entitled to your opinion, as I have explained, you are incorrect that he is a not a narcissist.

          3. T.M.O33 says:

            OK, I can’t wait to see your observation!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Telling an aware narcissist that he cannot spot his own kind. Hmm…I’ll set another place at the table with the label Delusional.

          5. T.M.O33 says:

            Dear NarcAngel,

            Forgive me if I came too strong on you. And I apologize for labelling your observation as “delusional”.

            I have said this in the first place, because you said,

            “He was whatever he needed to be at the time to get what he wanted. Black/white,”

            My response to this is that MJ suffered a skin disorder that’s why he used skin bleaching.

            “He may have been a predator but those parents were complicit in pimping their kids out.”

            Is this even Possible!!

            Anyway, Yes, HG is a self aware narcissist. But this doesn’t make him impeccable! Not every and each observation of HG have to be correct!

            At the end saying this in HG Tudor’s website is useless. Because he has the upper hand here. In addition, if HG wrote an article or 100 articles stating that Michael Jackson is a narcissist, it will never change MJ true nature, affect his reputation or even turn him into a real narc!

          6. WhoCares says:


            I see you have given it much thought in composing your response to HG regarding your position on Michael Jackson. And you did so without having seen the documentary. However, even if you separate out all the hullabaloo over the child abuse accusations (temporarily) and just examine his other characteristics – in light of HG’s teachings – you can see that MJ is a narc. I wasn’t even thinking about the child abuse allegations in my initial musings on HG stating that observation. Because, like you, I hadn’t seen (still haven’t) the documentary – which is partly why I didn’t offer any response to that issue. And, even aside from the issue child abuse, I do agree with NarcAngel – that parents were complicit, or at the very least *incredibly naive* and star struck – because who would give their child into someone’s care (a complete stranger essentially) for that long?

          7. T.M.O33 says:

            Who Cares,

            I said, when I wrote my first observation, I didn’t know about the documentary. It was then, not now! So you are NOT like me, in this sense or any other sense!

            It’s also weird that you hit a like for my comment when I said, MJ IS NEVER A MALIGANT NARCISSIST. But then you write a follow up comment saying that, “in light of HG’s teachings – you can see that MJ is a narc.” !!!

            Is there a fear of disagreeing with HG or something? , I wonder!

            I think that even HG has made some observation without watching old documenters, first he answered with confidence that MJ is a Greater Narc, later he asked “Was he actually convicted?”.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            You have misunderstood my comment so I shall expand.

            The questioner posited that MJ could not have been a Greater because he got caught. I posed the question “was he actually convicted?” (I know he was not convicted) and made this point (as a question) to demonstrate that yes, he was a Greater because although he was accused he was never convicted. Greaters invariably are never accused or if they are, they escape conviction/consequence.

            My comment was not related to whether I had witnessed the documentary or not.

          9. WhoCares says:


            I’m glad that you replied to me so that I can explain better.

            “So you are NOT like me, in this sense or any other sense!”

            The only similarity between us, that I pointed out, was that we both reacted to HG’s statement without having seen the documentary.

            “It’s also weird that you hit a like for my comment when I said, MJ IS NEVER A MALIGANT NARCISSIST.”

            I ‘liked’ your post because I appreciated you standing up to HG and presenting your views – you should. (You did so politely etc..)
            You should never accept anyone’s point of view wholesale without critical thought…that’s how we all got entangled in the first place.

            “Is there a fear of disagreeing with HG or something? , I wonder!”

            I’m not in fear of disagreeing with HG. I have felt internal ‘objections’ to his logical thinking and I have voiced them on the blog. However, I do trust his assessment of who is or isn’t a narcissist.

            I never took offense to any of your assertions on MJ. As I stated in other comments: I was intentionally leaving out the child abuse allegations to focus on re-examining my views on Michael Jackson’s persona – in light of HG’s statement that he is a Greater narcissist. (I recalled reading interesting articles on MJ back in university and my thoughts at that time.)

            I also left out the child abuse allegations because of not having followed the news reports/documentary, etc.: I didn’t feel “qualified” to express an opinion on that matter.

            What actually bothered me was your comment to NarcAngel. (But I see now that you followed up with her.)

            Both as a parent – and as a commenter who has been around long enough to get to know NA a bit – I do feel qualified to offer an opinion on whether or not her observation was “delusional.”

            Whatever the fallout (abuse or no abuse) was of those children having spent time with Michael Jackson – the parents were complicit because they essentially gave consent by allowing their children to spend significant time alone with someone who in reality they knew nothing about: what does anyone truely know about “superstars”? …Other than the facade they show the public.

          10. nunya biz says:

            Yes it is possible to pimp (using the term loosely) one’s kids and it happens all the time.

          11. nunya biz says:

            I “like” people’s comments on here all the time for reasons other than agreement.

        2. amanda SNapchat says:

          I just saw the documentary of leaving neverland. I think MJ is clearly a narc. He gave the kids the golden period; then turned them and their families into his lieutenants; he did triangulation with them; placed them on shelfs. Text book narc.
          What do you think? How do explain all the triangulation he did to the kids?
          I also feel bad about Macaully caulin 🙁

        3. Bella says:

          He was a full blown narcissist!!

      5. WiserNow says:


        So far, I’ve only watched the first part of the documentary, but I was surprised about the revelations of the obvious grooming and his rampant pedophilia.

        It seems so obvious now, because what grown man in his thirties and forties would want to sleep with young boys constantly if he wasn’t a pedophile?! I think Neverland was built mainly in order to provide a “golden period” to the children and families he wanted to lure and brainwash.

        For some reason though, when he was alive and famous, I believed his childlike persona was real. I thought it was based on him never really having a proper childhood due to his father’s abuse and the constant pressure to practise and perform as a child.

        Now I think he was a very disordered person who probably inherited the narcissism from his father and had enough money and power to do whatever he wanted.

        He targeted the innocence and naivety of children and their love and awe of him as a superstar and idol. He showered them with all the things children enjoy. They were putty in his hands. He definitely lacked empathy and a conscience. It seems he targeted children whose parents, at the time, were starry-eyed (or narcissistic themselves) about the fame, fortune and bright future for their children, so he played on their desires as well.

        It’s a fascinating example of how fame, accolades and money can “groom” people into believing an illusion.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      6. Bella says:

        Yes he was and definitely played the little boy act so that he could molest little boys without people even realising it could be possible.

  12. Alexissmith2016 says:

    K I asked HG some questions about the MRN who believes he’s a greater but I completely forget where they are and wanted to add a new question, if you know I’d be extremely grateful if you helped me out.

    But I will pose the question here instead.

    One of the observations I’ve made about these types is that whilst they recognise the signs and symptoms of what a narc is and that they themselves are indeed one (although believe they’re more clever than they actually are) they don’t seem to readily pick up on who other narcs are. Which actually makes them extremely vulnerable to being manipulated by other Ns (well definitely by actual greaters), they do seem more able to pick up on lessers generally speaking, I guess BecuSe that is More obvious.

    Do you tbink that is a fair assessment HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Those observations are correct.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Like 1 trillion billion times!!

        Because everything is all slotting into place

        Thank you many more HG

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      2. DEMBunny says:

        Wait- a MMR can identify that they are a narc?!

        1. HG Tudor says:


    2. Lou says:

      Alexis, I think it is here
      Hope the link works.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Wonderful. Thank you so much Lou.

        1. Lou says:

          You’re welcome Alexis.

      2. K says:

        Oops, Thanks! I just saw your link.

      3. DEMBunny says:

        Jesus CHRIST this is my MMR to a tee.
        In fact today he described a tv show character as a narcissist. He has also called his ex wife one.
        I was just wondering today how he can accurately identify a narc without knowing he is one.

    3. K says:

      It looks like you found the thread yesterday but I will post it anyway just to be thorough.

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