Poll : What Was Your ‘Full Horror Moment’ ?

KTN Poll - H.G Wants To Know Post Graphic

It is often the case, although not always, that there is a Full Horror Moment that occurs when a victim makes a shocking discovery about the narcissist that they are entangled with. More often than not this arises out of the romantic dynamic, but it will also include familial and less so social or work dynamics.

The Full Horror Moment is when you make a discovery about that person which, in essence, tears apart your world. It occurs when you are not physically present with the individual. It might be you make the discovery following escape or dis-engagement, but more often it occurs whilst the relationship is ongoing. You may have had your suspicions and decide to check the ‘phone of this individual only to find that your seemingly heterosexual partner has been subscribing to gay dating sites, arranging hook-ups with same sex partners and engaging in a way of life unbeknownst to you. Alternatively, it might be an instance where you open some post mistakenly only to find that your husband has a huge credit card bill and this puts you on to a trail of other financial car crashes.

Whilst no less horrific, the FHM is not where you have been punched or raped by the narcissist, kicked out of the home by them or such similar interaction. The FHM covers those discoveries which are made without the narcissist being physically present which have you feeling sick, needing to sit down and sending you reeling. There may have been several items which came together, hence you may choose up to five options.

Do expand in the comments on the circumstances of your FHM, how you made the discovery, was it accidental or did you have suspicions? Did you think the problem was something else only to be totally wrong-footed?

Thank you for participating.



What was your 'full horror' moment?

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140 thoughts on “Poll : What Was Your ‘Full Horror Moment’ ?

  1. Mary says:

    For me it was definitely learning the extent of my hub’s porn collection when he wasn’t interested sexually in me. At first I told myself it just meant he had a healthy appetite and maybe there was a way to get his attention. Yet, it really bothered me that he had photos of women he KNEW through work as he’d repaired their computers and ran “backups” of their files and kept their pics! There were references to local universities, etc. so I knew they were customers! But the worst thing was finding an entire folder of my MOTHER. He had pics of my own mother’s feet (he has a foot fetish so these weren’t innocent). These were taken on multiple occasions, with various footwear and flooring, so I knew they were spread out over time. I was even in a few, blurred in the background.

    I have stayed with my hub, tried to talk to him non-specifically. He replied that yes he has porn, but most of the time he’s watching videos of me. (He had two vids of me, among thousands of others so I call bullshit.) finally confronted him 3 years after the fact, to which he denied it at first, and finally just said “I don’t know what to say.”

    I’ve looked at places to live, but right now I’m staying because our very elderly dog needs both his “parents” and lifting I can’t provide at times. I feel like it’s imminent I will leave, but somehow I manage to compartmentalize my hurt and disbelief at times and still have sex with my hub. Last year, he wanted to ALL the time out of the blue (after being confronted with his habit, he prob wanted to stop the questions). Sometime a few months later though, my sex drive plummeted and I cannot seem to get it back. Maybe it’s our conflict. Maybe it’s hormonal. Maybe it’s worrying about my dog and hub’s raging at the dog. Some of you also know I had an online narc over a year and ghosted the guy. But I still think of the asshole every day and have missed the intensity of sexting with him (often multiple times a day when I wasn’t shelved). I don’t want him back and don’t miss the games, but I worry that my sex drive is partially stripped from that. Anyway, between two narcs it’s totally dead.


    1. WokeAF says:

      Mary just leave. Take the dog since he “rages” at it anyhow – hire a pet sitter to help out. You’re ass backwards bc you’re IN it and can’t see straight. The spell will wear off but you gotta get out first. All I hear here is a lot of pain and crazy making . Just gooooo

    2. Kiki says:

      Oh Mary my heart goes out to you.
      This is so damaging for you.
      You’re self image as a woman is going to be severely damaged by this.

      I know it’s easier as an outside person to give advice. it’s hard to leave I know.

  2. gothfoodie says:

    You should probably add an option for the narcissist endangering your life on purpose 1)to punish you for having medical needs of your own for a change, thus failing to make the situation all about him and 2) to draw negative fuel from your panic and trauma at the emergency, which he wants to believe is only because of the sudden discard.

  3. LC says:

    My FHM isn’t on the list so I didn’t vote. It was when I realised that he probably really meant it that he wanted our son institutionalised. It was when I started looking for help.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Interesting. How old was your son?

      1. LC says:

        13 or 14, he had started secondary school and was being bullied there (no surprise as he was being bullied at home) – and “acted out” (not my words) . I am wondering if “institutionalised” is the right word actually (English is my second language) – my ex meant to be put in an orphanage type institution. This doesn’t make it any better of course – since he meant it. I managed to get therapy for my son first, then myself. My ex torpedoed any attempt at REAL change – I had the whole programme of “having gone crazy” when I implemented it with the help of my therapist, and eventually managed to leave him. The dysfunction ran so deep that my ex made it impossible for our son to see his therapist for long. But once I had left the ex things improved – my son is 21 now, he’s doing well and you can’t believe how much this means to me. My daughter, the golden child, is the bigger worry. But I will see what time will bring.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          It took a lot of courage to leave and to persevere with getting help for yourself and your son. I bet you can’t begin to believe how much it means to your son. Hold your head up proudly for what you have accomplished. I am proud of you just reading it.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Wow. LC’s FHM is an excellent demonstration of the danger to those who are under the care of those ensnared and under the influence. This is a line for me in having any further understanding or acceptance of whatever label or mental gymnastics that would allow this.

      1. LC says:

        NA, not sure if I understand your sentence correctly- do you mean there is a dividing line between understandable therefore somewhat acceptable co-dependent mothering and not acceptable co-dependent mothering? Is that not like saying some mental gymnastics is understandable seeing the person is deluded but not the bit that really hurts – because you cannot be so deluded as to not realise you’re deluded if you experience such an FHM? If so where then would be the line where victimhood is no longer an ok concept when it comes to the motherhood of those who find themselves trying to make a narcissistic relationship work?

        I can report another FHM that I keep reliving many times. The FHM is not the incident I am about to describe but the realisation later that this was the moment I should have left him but I didn‘t. The horror moment is directed at myself. At my collusion with the narcissist.

        My son was only a few months old, perhaps not even 2. He was tiny. My ex husband shook him because he cried and wouldn’t go to sleep. (I recall only the one incident I don‘t think there were more). Of course I KNEW this was wrong! I was devastated! I told him it couldn’t happen again. At the same time I excused it – no need to list the excuses now. I did not think: somebody who is capable of shaking a baby is a violent person. Fullstop. I thought: this is a tough time, and we will get through it.

        My FHM: I excused it.

        I did whatever it took to solve whatever problem there was – except I had no means to see that this man was not in the least interested to solve anything. If my various solutions did not work out I blamed myself and tried the next crappy solution until there was a respite period. Respite period was a happy period in my book. I do not come from a happy home – the way I remember it there was never any respite period for me as a child. It was prison and a dangerous one too.

        I hope this does not sound like an excuse.

        I don‘t know where I read that your mother made you and your siblings kiss step-n goodnight. Probably in the letter no 40 thread. You say it was abuse. Yes it was. At the same time it probably was a strategy of hers to appease him. And herself. To make things work. And to make things look like they worked. Mental gymnastics you say. I recall taking many photographs that made it look like he was a loving dad. I asked him to pose in certain ways with our small children and took those pictures and glued them into an album and my children love these to this day. There is hardly a picture of me. I FELT that I was doctoring , manipulating our family story to look like a happy one because I needed to believe it was. I felt it because I can remember the feeling. But I could not make sense of that feeling.

        Not then. I can now. It was my true self. It’s what beat narcissism in the end.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Hi LC
          I’m just getting to your comment now so checking to see if you’re still around before I try to explain. I want you to know that it was not a criticism of you.

          1. LC says:

            Hi NA, am still around ! I don‘t post every day and I haven‘t subscribed to the comments or my blog addiction stops me from doing things I need to do….I am ok with being criticized, resp I don’t suspect unfair criticism too soon so please be as straight forward as you want to be. (I have already tread on quite a few toes here without meaning to, it happened each time when I addressed the problematic side of our own contributions to the entanglement. I am of the opinion we are responsible for the relationship woes we have to a large extent and for not protecting our children – my impression is that this is not the most popular of views here,but I might be wrong- I don’t mean this in a judgmental way, because I would have protected my kids had I known how, and had l known what stopped me from doing so).

    3. E. B. says:

      LC, he really meant it. You were right to start looking for help. Most people do not want to believe how cruel and dangerous some people are.

      1. LC says:

        E.B. I know he did and the full impact of the realization – of how cruel a thing to suggest this was – only hit me much much later. And I was an adult! What I am trying to say is, I knew it was wrong and found help THEN but did not feel the cruelty to the full degree then, only later, because I was numbed.This is why I know my children will probably struggle with dysfunction for life. When I became entangled with him I loved his sense of humour. I used it for my delusion. He told me everything there was to know about his world view. It matches what is described on this blog to a T. When I challenged any of it he twisted it to make it sound like i hadn‘t realised it was satire, irony a joke etc. ( which enabled me to carry on thinking he was an ok person really). Not that time. He wasn‘t even pretending he was joking.

  4. Tammy says:

    One of the biggest wake up calls. If you aren’t getting this yet you better do some serious HG reading.

  5. Chihuahuamum says:

    I chose ….found out he had a double life…more like multiple fake personalities online and flirts with others.
    It was actually early on in the relationship. He knew i knew and played major head games and gaslighting with that knowledge bc i couldnt prove it. I was blown away how good a liar he was and actor. I googled split personalities and it led me to narcissism and sociopath.
    I was stunned he not only lied but wanted me to find out. I think he thinks he did me a favor and by me continuing its all on me whatever happens.
    I guess in a way its true. Its been my choice to walk away at any point and still is.
    I still remember that moment and feeling like id been kicked in the stomach. It hurt so bad the betrayal. The realisation he was not who i thought he was. One of his personalities he acted like the narc he is without the mask. I seen what was behind his mask and how he really feels and thinks. He can be such an asshole 🙊polar opposite of his mask. Its still a shock!

  6. empath007 says:

    For me, it was his confession. Obviously there are a long list of awful things he put me through… but ultimately the confession was what I needed because it was the truth.

    I like the truth. That’s no surprise for an empath. He had given me the only answer that explained all of his behaviour. It was the only answer that made any sense… and it was the only time in our god awful relationship he didn’t lie to me.

    He was so self assured and arrogant though he thought I would not properly educate myself
    And that I would come crawling back. Like I always did before.

    Well… he never did know me all that well. Despite his years studying me from a distance. He once again completely underestimated not only my intelligence but my strength.

  7. Bibi says:

    Slightly off topic, but oddly I received a mass email tonight from a past victim MRN ex-friend who I have not heard from in 10 yrs. And guess what he wants? Money.

    I met him 20 yrs ago and there has never been a time when he wasn’t asking for money. He was in his 40s and his parents were still paying his rent.

    He is asking for money for conventional things like car repair but also to pay for his storage facility and so he can attend seminars and conferences.

    He wants about 5K or so and not once has he bothered to contact me in 10 yrs asking how I was doing. I will not respond to his request.

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi bibi…they contact when they need something or to make sure they have control over you as a option still. Not surprising but not swift either bc how could he think for a minute youd give him 5k!?

    2. E. B. says:

      Hi Bibi,

      I am glad you saw the red flags quickly and that you are not going to fall prey to his future fake. You can see his sense of entitlement. He is not embarrassed to contact you after 10 years (!) to ask for 5K(!). He has probably contacted other people too and is hoping that one or the other will fall for his sob story.

      I used to have understanding and sympathy for those coming from a lower social background who had been taught in their family of origin that ‘borrowing’ (taking) money from others is ok. But not anymore. There is an excellent article about narcissists ‘borrowing’ money: “Future Fakes No. 2 – I will pay you back.” I read it last week again. Several times! This article includes all the red flags.

      There is this Fake Victim asking his friends and also us acquaintances to borrow money and even though it is two-digit and they said he pays back, I believe this is a salami-slicing tactic to appear reliable and trustworthy. Apart from his mobile number, one of his friends gave him his work telephone number as well. The Fake Victim needed the money ASAP and ‘complained’ to his friend he had not been able to reach him at work. (His friend turns his personal phone off when at work. ) Urgency makes the target act quickly and prevents him/her from having enough time to think about it.
      I know that this Fake Victim will smear me to mutual acquaintances as a punishment for having refused to lend him money but I do not care. He is a TS to me. He is giving me the ST right now. If it wasn’t for HG’s work, I would have made a lot of mistakes.

      1. E. B. says:

        sorry- I meant Fake Victim is asking friends and acquaintances to *lend* him money.

      2. Bibi says:


        I am clearly on his ‘contact list’ which he sent out to everyone in his past. He didn’t come from a poor background. Both his parents were medical doctors and catered to him his entire life. (Was still paying his rent well into his 40s.) He’s been able to travel the world on their dime.

        When they died he inherited a house, which he ultimately had to sell because he was unable to pay property tax, etc. He is a nomad who likes to ‘live on the road’ and ‘be free’ which translates to ‘too lazy to actually stay in one place and have a job’.

        His suffering falls on my deaf ears. Where does he think money comes from? Why should people just hand him 100s of dollars so he can drive around and attend conferences?

        He has a medical condition which is ironically one I also suffer from. Granted, his might be further along than mine, but nonetheless, I know the fatigue he suffers from because I have also suffered from it on occasion.

        There is work he could do. Transcription, phone work, etc. that is not too taxing. But he wants to live the ‘free life’ of the ‘artist’ and just have people pay for him.

        He has asked for money many times over the years and now he is in his 60s and has never grown up, still whines about how the world has wronged him, poor him. Everything is me, me, me. He never asks about anyone else or speaks about anyone else unless it relates to him.

        I remember about 12 yrs ago him writing on his blog about how he had to go into the hospital and receive blood. He was getting so much attention as result of that and he was in an amazingly good mood. He loves it when you feel sorry for him and baby him, which is what the nurses were doing.

        The ironic thing is that despite playing up his medical condition (which I also have so I am aware of what goes on) nowhere does he mention money for medication. Yet he wants disability money. Yet it well enough to drive long distances to attend conferences?

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Unbelievable gall, and insulting that he would think you are that gullible. Bad enough those close to you much less someone you haven’t been in contact with. I would collect bottles on the side of the highway for money before I would ever ask anyone else for theirs. Asking for someone else’s money is a huge red flag for me because it shows me that you assume a sense of entitlement to mine in asking me to share because you cannot manage yours, or you plan to scam me which assumes I’m stupid. This bank is closed.

  8. Bibi says:

    It varies depending on narcissist. The Mid Ranger it was seeing his gay Twitter page and all the activities he was involved in, which he never mentioned. So I literally felt like I was looking at a stranger.

    The flirty Lesser Somatic I knew was a douche and lied about his job, but then I searched him up and saw he had multiple mug shots and was registered as a sex offender.

  9. Kelly B says:

    Not long after exposing him. In the middle of the night law enforcement banging on my door. The next day the Sherriff reading me all this stuff. He wrote about me that was a total fabrication complete lies. Completely lied like the devil and smeared me. The lying dirty Bastard smeared me.

  10. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    My first “horror” moment …..with the Weasel
    Mr Bubbles, the weasel n myself, were at a Quiz night
    I was seated between the two of them and the weasel was putting pen to paper ….I looked over and asked “what are you doing” (I thought he was working out a quiz problem) …. it was sketches about killing !
    I told him to “stop it, that’s just sick” …. he did it deliberately to get a reaction from me …..his smile said it all, he was beaming from ear to ear! (He would just randomly say to me “I kill people” with this smirk ….. it was freakn scary! )
    Then it was blatantly lying to my face !
    Then it was finding two sides to his stories
    And then it was the silent treatments
    And then and then and then
    With my step dad ….. finding he hid my mail from my mum for 21 years was pretty horrendous !
    Moving without telling me was also horrendous !
    It was somewhat horrifying reading the truth from this blog, yet a relief at the same time …. the truth hurts …. but for the good in the long run !
    Just knowing a narc is a horrifying enough experience in itself !
    Thank you for continuing with your fabulous polls… they’re great !
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome Bubbles

  11. WokeAF says:

    I didn’t have a full horror moment with my LMR bc it was a million little horror moments from day one.

    I was shelf/DLS to the MMR and again no full horror moment – YET- I say yet because I’ll probably piece together a couple of things now that I’m total NC – and who knows what will come out in the wash. I got out now purposefully to avoid having to experience a devaluation and future discoveries while still entangled in any way.

  12. Omj says:

    Once there was a war between ont other IPSS and me . When I discovered he sided with her against me. He flipped me a text that was « «  supposed » to be for her , smearing me … I freaked out – left him and went no contact for 3 months. Eventually I went back but I canceled seeing him a few times at the beginning because I was traumatized .
    It was the worst time – of all- but there has been many other hardcore one

  13. SMH says:

    Wow, the stories. I guess this is more about IPPSs than IPSSs, and I feel for all of you.

    As IPSS we did not spend tons of time together, I was not dependent on him for anything, and I knew about IPPS and therefore what kind of relationship we had.

    I had a lot of aha moments but can’t say I had a horror one. Probably the closest was when I finally found his IG and realized that there was well and truly something wrong with him, that it wasn’t about me at all. It was a combination of relief, a sinking feeling, and intense curiosity. Although things did not end there – because I was hoovered incessantly over the next 10 months – I never did sleep with him again. I think that was because the facade he had with me had cracked and the magic was sort of gone.

  14. Abw Flying says:

    When he whispered in my ear that “he wished I was dead “ while having his d*** in me.

    1. SMH says:

      OMG Abw Flying.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Dang. How did you react?? I would have made sure he would never get his dick back out.

    3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Oh my Abw.
      The things a narc will say for fuel….

    4. scareemaree says:

      That is horrible! I hope you left his psycho ass!

    5. empath007 says:

      Holy shit. That’s awful. I’m so sorry.

    6. NarcAngel says:

      Fuck. Me. Just when you think you’ve heard everything.

  15. Victoria says:

    It was kind of strange…. We were in a WhattsApp chat…. It was about how he treated other partners, when he was angry… I was mouth wide open by surprise because it was the first time that he was true honest… He punished her ex girlfriends (and maybe they’re not so “ex”). Of course, with silent treatments but additionally he tied them up and beat them with a riding whip… Although it may sound sexual BDSM punishment, it had a twisted chilling angle: After that, he won’t say anything or express anything, and will bring in another woman and have sex in front of her girlfriend, still bound and gagged.

    When I ask if he was planning to do the same with me, he said that definitively if I’d expose him in public…

    And when I asked if some of his other girlfriends walked away after that, his answer was “ Yeah, but they always come back”.

  16. Sarah says:

    5 January 2005, I was 25 years old.

    There was a knock at the door of the home N and I had shared for several years. I opened the door to greet our gardener (a long time associate of N). He appeared pensive and troubled and so I spoke warmly to him and invited him in. As I offered him something to drink he declined and the words of warning, fear and apologies fell from his mouth almost instantly.

    “Sarah”, he lamented. “ I know I don’t know you very well but you seem like a nice person and there are some things I think you need to know about ‘N’. These are awful things and I feel so bad to tell you. I don’t want you to live your whole life in a lie that is someone else’s doing”. What a courageous and beautiful man he turned out to be.

    He then told me that N:
    – Frequented multiple internet sites meeting women every working day for casual sex.
    – Visited prostitutes during work hours as his job afforded him many freedoms of which he completely abused.
    – Conceived a child with another woman during the course of our relationship and was trying to arrange harm to be caused to her so I wouldn’t find out.
    – Maintained three mobile phones to juggle the multiple women.
    – Boasted and bragged relentlessly to our group of friends telling them that I knew about his indiscretions and was accepting of it all, but I didn’t want anyone to talk to me about it because I was too embarrassed.
    – Told our friends that there was no doubt I was the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with but he could never be faithful and he needed “something different” from time to time. It’s funny how with so many devastating antics being communicated to me hearing the words “something different” was like a knife to the heart.
    – At the time of our meeting he had flown a young lady down from interstate and was entertaining her from different locations. His mother who I had known my whole life and adored was fully aware of this.

    The day of reckoning and the single most important day of my life in terms of changing my trajectory had arrived. The beginning of a very painful escape from deception so rampant it could’ve destroyed me. To say I am grateful for my FMH is an understatement, there was no other truth I needed to show me exactly what I needed to do.

    N’s grandfather died last week of a malignant brain tumour, he was my greatest support in all of this both financially and morally. I had known him my whole life, he was a phenomenal man. He made N stand up and face his indiscretions and take responsibility for everything. He paid me out and gave me my freedom. I will never forget how fortunate I was even during a time of such pain and torture. I hadn’t seen N’s grandfather for 14 years when I heard he had passed away; I broke my promise to him to stay in touch after all his help and support. This is the painful but necessarily difficult and heartbreaking side of no contact.

    Excess is predicated in access and I am no longer an accessible commodity to the N. In order to achieve peace it is first important to understand what is really in the heart and mind of the adversary; to understand how he views the world and how he thinks. HG’s writings have freed my heart and mind. It is here, that I have finally learned that my adversary, the N, has norms and beliefs that are completely incompatible with my principles. Frankly, he is just not worth my time.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Sarah, first of all, send me the number of your gardener; mine just makes a lot of noise while mowing the grass and does not come out nearly as insightful as that holy man you have.

      Second, you said something very wise: “it is important to understand what is in the mind and heart of the adversary.” Sun Tzu’s Art of War states that “if you use the enemy to defeat the enemy, you will be strong wherever you go.” That’s why HG’s work is beyond compare.

      1. Sarah says:

        Sweetest Perfection you really made me smile!

        Sounds like you need a new gardener – gardens are supposed to be peaceful places (he he).

        I have lost touch with the gardener – I definitely tried to keep him employed but I moved to the other side of the city and it was too far for him to travel. It was such a lesson in life that you never know who your true friends or allies are – the kindness of strangers is something truly special.

        I loved your quote with regard to enlisting your enemy to help you win the war! I agree wholeheartedly – I feel stronger with HG’s teachings than I ever have before. It is also the community here who I have learned so much from. We once felt special and unique with what we thought was a once in a lifetime love. Our connections with commentators here very quickly assist us to debunk the fairytale and see the relationship for what it really was…a colossal tale of fabrication and lies.

        Thanks so much for your support.

    2. mai51 says:

      Sarah, your last paragraph really resonated with me. Although the aftermath of an entanglement with a narc is a painful experience….. once you realise how fake and soulless they are, then the healing and the peace that follows, is so worth it. I have become a better version of myself because of it, and am so happy now. I cringe when I think of what I tolerated for so many years….and I’m positive I don’t know the half of it!

      1. Sarah says:


        So very true – the peace and the healing makes it all worthwhile.

        The truth is climbing emotional mountains is exhausting. It took me years to realise that a lot of the pain I was feeling was of my own making. I was fighting an internal war between my instinct to cling to my dreams about this relationship and my need to accept the truth. I think this is just what people do. I forgive myself. My life has had moments of heartbreak but it also has moments of absolute joy.

        Thanks so much for your kind words and for relating to my story.

    3. empath007 says:

      I’m so sorry for your loss. May he rest
      In peace.

      I’m so glad to hear you had support from good
      People who ultimately did the right thing. I’m also glad to hear that when someone so bravely told you of the narcs indiscretions… you believed them, you didn’t push them under the rug. That is strength and intelligence.

      All the best to you.

      1. Sarah says:


        Your words are very touching, so thank you.

        Yes, it was a defining moment but I do not take this person’s act of kindness for granted. I treasure every word he shared with me and the limb he climbed out on to share it. He had proof of his words via text message from the N, he showed me but I didn’t need to see it; it was evident in his eyes – he was devastated for me.

        I have protected him always even though he told me he was happy for me to share his name as the source. I never wanted him to be held accountable by the N or to suffer for his courage. He believed in my worth and my right to a respectful relationship – if he did, how could I not?!

        It was so tragic to hear of N’s grandfather’s passing. I was at work when I found out and I was overcome by emotion. N’s brother managed to get a message to me to tell me that he had died and that he had always loved me and thought the world of me. I felt so overwhelmed after all those years.

        I cried for my second chance at life and the fact N’s grandfather gave it to me. I don’t know another person in all my years who would’ve done what he did. He knew I lost my father when I was a teenager, I think he stepped in because he knew my father couldn’t. It is an inconceivable act of kindness to me, even to this day. I cried because I broke my promise to him to visit him again someday when I had little ones in my arms. I do not break promises easily, but it was one I couldn’t take the risk to keep.

        Thanks for listening E007, I feel like I have come full circle in sharing all of this with you.

  17. Leolita says:

    #1,2&4. Miss you on YouTube, HG, are you planning any new videos soon? 😊

    1. HG Tudor says:


  18. RisingFromTheAshes says:

    My horrific moment is what led up to me leaving. Around Christmas time, I had booked my narc a trip to Florida by himself over the winter break because he always got extremely depressed in the winter months and would make our life a living hell. I thought some fresh air and sunshine would help (and a little alone time for me couldn’t hurt either). I would have LOVED to take such a trip myself – by myself – but he never would have let me go alone, especially since we have kids he would have had to take care of ALONE, so this was the next best thing. Anyway, he started complaining almost immediately that he would be lonely, he didn’t want to go without me, he would miss the kids, etc. I told him that I had to work, couldn’t take off, the kids had school, and I didn’t want to pay to board the dogs – so he needed to go alone. I basically had to convince him to go. In the week before he left, he started acting suspicious – saying he was going to the gym to “work out” (he never, ever utilized the gym before except the rare year he was trying to diet, and he left in blue jeans, which you don’t work out in. 2 days that week prior to leaving he did this, and was gone for more than 5 hours each time. I called him about 2 hours after he left the 2nd time, and he still went with the “I’m at the gym” story, and he said he didn’t know when he would be home, not to wait for him for dinner, etc. The day of the flight, he left at 4am to catch an 8:30 flight at an airport only 45 minutes away. I was like, “why are you leaving so early?” and he simply goes “I just don’t want to be late at TSA check-in and all”. I knew something was up, and later that morning I discover what it was. I looked on his Google history, and had voice text-recordings and as well as time-stamped location points on the map showing that he had traveled to pick up a prostitute he had solicited off of Backpage, who lived 1 1/2 hours away, in order to take her with him to Florida. It had all been pre-arranged, as he had to go to her earlier in the week to work out the details and to purchase her plane ticket (have to have real names and birthdates for TSA). The arrangement was that he would pay all of her expenses down there, plus $300 cash. He even bought her clothes and a swimsuit. Anyway, Google history goes back THREE YEARS, and I discovered MULTIPLE similar infractions where he had solicited prostitutes. This was my horror moment, and I immediately decided I was done. I screen-shotted everything, saved audio files and texts, and moved out of the house in 48 hours while he was gone. Sad part is, the girl he was supposed to take stood him up (I have that text exchange too, so it wasn’t something he made up) – most likely she thought better of the idea and got scared that it might be a human trafficking thing, and I have no animosity towards this woman. BTW: after she stod him up, he sent her a text saying “if I had known you wouldn’t go with me, I would have just taken your roommate”, so he didn’t care either who he was taking, as long as he could f**k someone. After he returned, and was trying to get me back, and he was confronted with this, he goes “but I didn’t take anyone to Florida with me”, as if the fact that SHE decided to bail on him lessens his guilt. To this day, he still does not know the extent of the information I have on him (300+ pages) and his “excursions”, so he still attempts to play the victim and say I am blowing it all out of proportion.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Good for you, RFA!! What a repulsive roach.

    2. KellyD says:

      RFTA, I’m sorry, that whole ordeal must have been heartbreaking in some way. No one wants to believe that is happening, and him making light of it because she didn’t go. Smdh. You’re the victor. Finally free!

    3. Tammy says:

      Why would you give this piece of shit one more second of your time? Do what HG says.GOSO.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Hg approves

  19. foolme1time says:

    Juliet, You will find your answers and your peace with HG. Good luck dear. 🌻

    1. Juliet says:

      Thank you 😊

  20. Juliet says:

    When I realized my Narc had no problem with sabatoging commitments, holidays & events to punish me with Silent treatment, ignoring & blocking. This time we had committed to helping my brother installing signs at a rental property. My Narc is very handy and so my brother relied on him and I thought my Narc really liked my brother. I don’t remember what we had a disagreement about but I showed up to the property as well as my brother and my Narc never did and of course we couldn’t get a hold of him. I helped my brother and then left and drove and cried list bewildered sad and I absolutely wanted to die. I started shopping for guns, I wrote letters to everyone and the one to him was a feeling of revenge. I wanted him to feel the pain of my death. And then I realized he probably wouldn’t even feel that. He wasn’t the man I fell in love with. He was someone else. I had been conned and I knew it. I was gone for almost 24 hours and he never attempted to even reach out to see if I was ok like a normal person would. It was then I researched mental abuse and new there was something I just had to find it. Took a while but I’m still in the relationship and still receiving abuse although he does go to therapy and with me various type and is just now feeling sorry for himself because there is a reason and a type for his dark side. We both listened to an interview with HG and he related but is trying to combat and defend for what he believes in some scenarios of narcissism he is not. Looking forward to my audio consultation with HG. I deserve peace

    1. Tammy says:

      Him going to counseling or therapy is a scam. Sorry, but it’s the truth. He won’t change. It’s impossible. Keep reading and you will figure it out. Best of luck.

      1. HG Tudor says:


      2. SMH says:

        Agreed, Tammy. Juliet, my MRN went to couples therapy with IPPS while we were in an affair. He then decided to commit to IPPS (I encouraged it – ‘all I can do is to try to be the best person I can be,’ he said). For the next six months he hoovered me regularly and once he had IPPS where he wanted her – believing he had changed – he tried to get me back into the FR (I said no).

        1. Juliet says:

          I’m hearing you all. I’m seeing the cycle very clearly and I’m also seeing it’s a way of functioning for him and has been his whole life

          1. SMH says:

            Good to have your eyes opened, Juliet. We all want to believe…

      3. Juliet says:

        Thank you Tammy. He just started a new therapist recommended by Wendy Bahrey. I’m getting myself in a position to separate since he won’t leave. It’s extremely hard and scarie to think I married a man that completely conned me. He is 46 years old and has this sick connection to his mom who has her 3 other sons all living with her all over the age of 35. My husband is the second oldest and the only one that doesn’t live with her. I’ve experienced her narcissism personally and watch her control him with it and of course it’s all his dads fault who was a raging alcoholic but got recovery. His dad is very nice since Ive known him so it’s all mind fucking. Not to mention my narcs mom helped raise his 20 year old daughter and has come between that relationship. Yet I feel like his dad and get blamed for everything lol. Anyways, I’m just now waking up from this horror. looking forward to speaking with HG

  21. Joanne says:

    My FHM is also far less dramatic than those listed, but it was within the 24 hours of the last time we were together when he did the volte-face. I’ll never forget the feeling I had in my head, heart and stomach when I could sense that he changed. The feeling of horror knowing I gave myself over to someone who could so easily throw me aside.

    I “diagnosed” him within days after that and the quest for answers began. It was within a week that I found you, HG.

  22. Bekah B says:

    I have had several full horror moments over the years, involving the following:

    • Realised there were multiple infidelities

    • Identified extensive online flirtation and interaction

    • Realised he/she was leading a double life

    • He/she said ‘x’ about me to other people

    • Found huge debts had been incurred

    • Discovered extreme/fetish material

    The first moment was on May 9, 2016, exactly one week after our daughter was born.. He had a new phone as of February that year and left his older mobile phone at the house one day while stepping out for a while.. I went through it, discovering he had carried on multiple relationships with other women while I was pregnant.. Comparing the text message date and times he sent to one woman, and myself, I found that he had used my car for the day to drive up to her job and surprise her.. Another day/night, he had just left me for the night only to meet up with her and have sex.. Their follow-up conversation about their tryst literally made my stomach turn.. In conversations with other women, he lied about being a college grad and being in grad school at the current moment.. He lied about his whereabouts on certain holidays.. And in conversations with the first mother of his child, I finally discovered the true dynamic of his relationship with her and his oldest daughter–he was an absent father who did not provide any type of financial support or do any kind of routine checks to see how his daughter was.. All along, he would tell me that he had been in contact with his daughter, basically every week, but it was all lies.. He’s a deadbeat dad.. And I believe this caused me the most apprehension because I realized there was a strong possibility this would soon be my fate with our newborn daughter..

    I discovered he was really into hooking up with random women through various phone apps, such as POF, Tindr, and Blendr.. He had some strange fetishes when it came to pornography.. And in going through his email account, I discovered he was very bad with financial obligations, having had his car repossessed in 2014 and several bank accounts closed due to overdrawn funds..

    In my eyes, he quickly became somebody I didn’t realize he actually was.. He was afflicted.. And it was then that I made it my duty to do all that I could to save him from himself, show him true love, loyalty, and stability in hopes he would never let me go.. That’s the savior empath in me.. And it took entirely too long for me to realize I can’t save anybody, especially not him.. He has continued ALL of the things I discovered back in 2016 and 2017, including securing another vehicle but having it repossessed shortly afterwards.. He conned me into making the first 2 monthly payments for it, but it was clear he couldn’t keep up that obligation by himself.. He’s consistently had multiple relationships with other women, always a *minimum* of three at a time.. And after all of the test and trials throughout our own dynamic, he has started to disclose to others that he really doesn’t like me.. Right before I got pregnant last year, he was in a group message on FB with his friends calling me a b—- because of something I posted in a comment to one of his performance enemies.. He and the others completely misinterpreted the words and intent of my comment to the guy.. Nonetheless, my daughter’s father was bashing me to them in the group message, while at the same time carrying on a text convo with me, trying to play the victim, appearing he was hurt and done wrong to by my comment.. His face was literally split down the middle during the night, saying one thing to me while saying another to them.. It got to the point where at the end of the conversation I just had to let it be known that I was aware of what he had been saying about me for the past few mins.. And then I never replied to him for the rest of the night and several days afterwards.. That was 9 months ago, and it hurt me so bad, I can honestly say I have yet to fully recover from that, emotionally.. The things he said about me to those guys were so crass and demeaning.. I told myself I could never really be convinced by him again that there was any ounce of true affection for me anymore.. And I was right, but unfortunately a little too late before I would turn up pregnant again just one month later.. Since then, he has proven through his absence that he never really cared about me or our daughter.. And I will *never* forgive him for all that he has done..

    1. Joanne says:

      These stories are all so horrifying. I’m sorry you had to uncover all of that…. and that you felt you could save him 🙁

  23. Tamara says:

    Double Life, probably even a triple life…

  24. Dearest HG: Oddly, my horror moment came when I read your article regarding the Minions of Darkness. After I asked you some questions about that and understood your explanation, I was done!!! I saw that I had been also entangled at work with the malicious and harassing tag team of the Narcissist`s 4 Lieutenants, in addition to the entanglement with this Narcissist in the workplace, and I finally understood why my immune system was so utterly and bizarrely exhausted beyond words after around 3 years of all of this. I was shocked. My exhaustion was because of his Lieutenants` constant merry ground of unnecessary debate, disrespect and negative innuendos about me and towards me, in the workplace, once they realized that there was some interest between me and the Narcissist. Yet, it was a completely platonic relationship that I had with the Narcissist. He did not need more than than from me. He had plenty of sources already. I was new at the job and had quickly became his NIPSS without knowing about any of that sort of thing. I became their target, especially when he was not around, which was a lot of the time. So oddly, it was not the Narcissist per se that caused me to actually push the Abort Button, but it was more so his 4 Minions that over fulfilled the plan by their nonstop hoovering of me by proxy on behalf of the Narcissist and for their own foul enjoyment and overblown egos and sadism. But, at end, they did me a huge favor, because I should not have fallen for the Narcissist anyway, for my well-being. And, because he is a Narcissist, of course. But, I became so upset with them all, in aggregate, after reading Minions of Darkness, that I aborted them all, including their Master, the Narcissist. I pushed the destruct button. No fail safe could prevent me. I pushed it. I still have not set eyes on any of them since reading that article. Even so, I still despise those 4 bungling, envious and bitter minions. They took it all too far and took advantage of my long-suffering and patience with them all (only out of my admiration and infatuation with the Narcissist: I never had any interest in speaking to his churlish and boring 4 Lieutenants about anything at all, but I responded always diplomatically with them only for his sake, five days a week nonstop), to no end. How they enjoyed it all. I have been successfully freeing myself from that madness. The entire situation has been incredibly odd and painful. (But I really liked his coterie overall, and I have to ghost them as well, and that is so very painful). However, I was still hoovered last week, by text, by one of his 4 malign Lieutenants. Basically,They said they do not understand why I have been away sick for so long, and they really want me to come back. And, It is not the same with me being away. I believe them. Sure, they do. Will I return? Nah………they can have the Narcissist all to themselves. They already told me that he is more fun and not irritable when I am around. I posted that on here, months ago. However, I would not know. I never see him when I am not around, right? They can regulate him themselves now, without me being around. And he is a Major Sulking Handful! A Midranger, or a Somatic, or a Midranger with high somatic traits: But, who knows, but Enjoy! I am done. With them all. I replied to the malicious Lieutenant`s hoover text last week about returning to that work location as follows: ~~~[ Hi. I am better. Being sick is too boring to talk about. Thanks for inquiring. ]~~~

  25. KellyD says:

    My FHM was/is made up of little horror moments that keep coming around, interrupted by GPMs golden period moments. The golden periods now last only moments long, and I (emotionally) hope in those moments, but logically I know they’re bullshit.
    Thank you HG for dragging me out of the fog.

  26. marymswan1 says:

    When I quite clearly heard the words ‘true love is a blending of mind, body and spirit’ in my head, and that is when the real horror and devaluation began!

  27. Sweetest Perfection says:

    For the brief time our entanglement lasted, I suffered many little horror moments that I preferred to overlook: the clear evidence that when we were sexting, right when we were in the most passionate moment, he inserted comments that had a totally different tone, more friendly and less sexual in nature, such us: “I’m so lucky to be able to hang out with you.” I’m not stupid, I knew back then that didn’t fit the conversation, and it didn’t belong there, but I ignored it. But the biggest horror moment for me was the night I received a video. It consists of three parts. He is alone in the video, reflected in the mirror that he allegedly bought for his IPPS, and he is in their bedroom. All I can say is that at that very moment, I had an epiphany that 1) the video was not recent, he recorded it before being with me 2) it was suspiciously high quality and semi professional 3) I was not mentioned in the video at all, or anybody else’s name so that it remains quite generic 4) I was not the only one who received that video 5) I know he shares this and other videos with his gay friends. Then I read Sex and the Narcissist and I wanted to vomit and cry all at once.

    1. SMH says:

      SP, That’s so creepy!! What did he do in the video? Play with himself?

      Strangely, I realized for the first time what MRN was when I was watching a series called The Fall about a serial killer. There was this scene where the killer was having internet /webcam sex with a teenaged girl he was seducing, and suddenly I had a lightbulb moment. I am afraid to read SATN…

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        SMH, do you wanna see it? I’ll send it to you, but once you see it, you’ll die, like in The Ring. Hahaha I was just joking, yes it is creepy but for something I cannot fully explain. The video is like a porn movie with only one character. Nothing really extraordinary. I actually thought it was quite hot at first… before it hit me. And we all here know how it is: once you see it, you cannot ‘unsee it.’ I stopped watching it because it gives me the creeps. Think Dorian Gray.

        1. SMH says:

          LOL SP. I love the way you describe things but as tempting as it is, no. I have my own (unsolicited) dick pics sitting in my email thank you very much.

          1. MB says:

            SMH, why do you keep the dick pics? Is it evidence?

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I don’t know about SMH but I do keep the dick pics, the porn videos, and the whole chat sexting for future evidence, in case I need to pull it out and say: “no, motherfucker, it was YOU who attacked me”, or in case he claims I was harassing him and it was not consensual, or in case I want to destroy his perfect little marriage… I don’t know, the possibilities are endless.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            This evidence should only be retained and provided to the authorities should the need arise to defend any legal claims brought against you.
            1. Do not use it to confront the narcissist. You will provide Challenge Fuel, possibly be met with an adverse response and you will heighten your emotional thinking through this engagement. You will be met by the Twin Lines of the Narcissistic Defence and you will not persuade him of your position.

            2. If he claims it was not consensual and does not involve the authorities, ignore him, your response will be as per 1. You will be met with the Twin Lines of the Narcissistic Defence. If he involves the authorities, use the evidence but provide it to the authorities and not to him.

            3. The attempt to destroy his marriage is likely to fail, it will again amount to the provision of Challenge Fuel, you will be met by an adverse response and your emotional thinking will rise.

            Use logic and do not breach the first golden rule of freedom.

          4. SMH says:

            MB, SP, Lou, etc, I don’t know why but I’ve kept all of our emails. I have no plans for the pics – not revenge (only a brief period when I felt the need but were I to really seek revenge, I wouldn’t humiliate him like that), not as evidence (again, I would not humiliate him like that – I have other evidence), not to confront him (about what?). I think it would be hypocritical of me to use them for anything, to be honest. Also, legally I believe it would be revenge porn, and everyone should be aware of that. HG is right. Save them for the authorities if needed. They do remind me of the psychological warfare. Perhaps that is why I keep them.

          5. Lou says:

            Hi SMH. I never received any dick picks or videos from my narcs, so I really have no opinion or experience to share. I just read MB”s comment and felt the need to vent my spleen about my friend.
            Glad you’re still around. I think I read you’d be very busy at the moment.

          6. SMH says:

            Hi Lou, Sorry for the delay. I was away and mostly without internet (or time). I read your comment about your friend but what more can you do? One of my friends also told me that I was obsessed and that I was wrong – or how could I know to diagnose MRN (whom she never met)? But this friend thinks she has the answer to everything. Never supportive, always contrary, constant put downs, competitive, etc. I can only be around her for brief periods. Maybe your friend is like this too? She also has reason to be defensive.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:


          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG, thanks for your advice. I am not thinking of confronting the narc because I do not plan to break NC ever. I know he probably has smeared me but I won’t try to find out. I will use this evidence only in case there are any legal repercussions that could affect me, such as the one SMH mentioned. I don’t want to break his marriage and I do desire he is content with his current IPSSs. Anything as long as he leaves me alone.

          9. MB says:

            I never got any pics or video. I’m the one that gets to worry about the evidence he has on me.

            I’m glad I didn’t get any though. Too much everpresence. Although, if I had gotten them, I would keep them. As proof to myself that it wasn’t a dream.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I actually have them more as a proof to myself that it was a nightmare.

          11. MB says:

            SP, I’m sorry you didn’t get at least a few good memories out of the experience.

          12. SMH says:

            Ha SP (and hi!), Yes, a kind of a nightmare. I think I have finally woken up from it!

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That was a long nap, SMH! I missed you!

          14. SMH says:

            LOL, SP. Missed you too. You always make me laugh. Guess what? I did not think about MRN once the whole time I was away. Leading up to it I did – I wanted to share with him. But there was no room for him at all in my head and I haven’t thought about him since I returned. Of course it’s probably because I have a new crush. It won’t go anywhere (he’s married) but it is the first time I have really felt anything since I met MRN. Whatever MRN took or I gave to him, I now have back. There is a light at the end of the tunnel (cheesy, I know).

            Tell me what you have been up to (nothing too dodgy, I hope)!

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, new crushes are great and I miss that, but another married man? Make sure he’s not another narc in disguise!! My life is quiet these days. I got a job interview, got bitten by a spider right before flying to the place, I traveled with my arm swollen and in pain. I did the interview under the effects of a fever and didn’t get the job. But … I got super powers!

          16. SMH says:


            You are spider woman now! Ha. You need to change your avatar!

            I hope you are not disappointed about the job. I also flew somewhere for a job interview a few months ago and did not get it. I thought I wanted it at the time but now I am glad I did not get it because I would have taken it and it would have been a nightmare. Things do sometimes happen for a reason…

            I don’t think work guy is a narc – been discussing it with Lou, K and PSE on another thread. But yes, he is married. Weirder still, he has only daughters (I have a son). MRN had 3. ExL had 2. Even the guy I dated last fall had only a daughter. It seems that this has been my pattern forever (though not all married). I wish I could figure out what that was about – is it me who is attracted to them or the other way around? Why?

            Anyway, amongst other things, MWGWOD (married work guy with only daughters :)) bought me many drinks when we were away (I was short on the local cash). He said – don’t worry, you can take me out when we get back. I guess to me that seemed to be a relationship builder/opening, so I slipped cash under his office door yesterday (he was out) to maybe send him a message that I was not open for business?? Not sure why I felt that I had to do it but it was sort of like the emails that I made MRN delete. I was clearing the books, slamming the door, not owing anyone anything.

            I am leaving soon anyway, so we will not see each other for awhile (unless he suddenly pops up, as MRN used to do when I was away).

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, yes, I got the spidey sense of getting a hoover, I got three anonymous calls yesterday and my inner alarm went off. I never pick up the phone anyway. I’m very relieved I didn’t get that job for many reasons, one of them is that I would have to give up my current status to go a little lower in rank. But I would have moved to a city I love so I’m just sad about that part. The job was a nightmare with no time for traveling and I do need to travel. SMH, I’m glad you paid back for your drinks but, did you leave a note so that he knows the money is from you and for that purpose?

          18. SMH says:

            SP, Three hoovers yesterday? How do you feel about that? Spooked? I haven’t had one in ages, as far as I know, except for an anonymous LinkedIn visit a few weeks ago (MRN’s favourite way to hoover me).

            I did leave a little note for work guy, and I had mentioned it previously (which is when he said, ‘you can take me out later’ – had it been reversed, I would have said ‘you can pay me back later’ – see the difference?). My guess is he knows and got the ‘message.’

            The job I did not get also would have taken up way too much of my time. I have a good balance now so I don’t look around much for new jobs anyway. Travel is important to me too. One reason I so enjoyed my recent trip was because I had never been to this country before. It is the best way to reset and see things with new eyes.

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, I don’t care. I like to think they are telemarketers so that my ET doesn’t act up. If he’s calling me from hidden numbers, he’s just giving me one more reason to think he’s embarrassing and ridiculous.

            SMH, I read about your sister somewhere, I wanted to say I’m very sorry for your loss.

          20. SMH says:

            Thank you, SP. It happened over a year ago now. Hard to believe. Life goes on but last year was a real bitch between MRN and my sister.

            I hear you about the hoovers. When mine were coming fast and strong I’d say to myself, why don’t you just connect with me on LinkedIn? Friend me on FB with one of your fake profiles? Send me an email? Call me? What are you afraid of? I did tell him when I escaped that I didn’t want to be in touch even as friends unless he left his marriage but of course he completely ignored it when I said it, so why the hoovers? It is embarrassing and ridiculous.

            Anyway, the more time that passes the less I feel like I even ever knew this ‘person’ though strangely, a friend of mine with absolutely no connection to the world that MRN and IPPS inhabited (with which I overlapped independently of them) met a friend of IPPS’s the other day in a completely unrelated context. I recognized the name.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, yes what a horrendous year, I can’t even imagine. I’m so sorry.

            I agree with you, hoovers in general seem quite idiotic to us. They have this component of lack of maturity/childish outburst that makes you laugh and feel embarrassed at the same time.

          22. Tammy says:

            SMH, I would re-think the married man. Very high chance he’s also a N. Even if he’s not, he has nothing to offer you. You will always come second to the wife. He will promise to leave her for you and that will never happen. You will see him only on his terms. He will lie and tell you him and his wife don’t have sex anymore to gain sympathy. He will tell you he’s getting divorced which is a lie. This is an absolute no win situation. You should require better for yourself than the crumbs you will receive from a married man. Plus, imagine how painful this will be for his wife because she will find out. These situations can turn very bad very quickly. To the point of being highly dangerous. My two cents. I see huge red flags here. Best wishes.

          23. SMH says:

            Hi Tammy, No worries. I have no plans to get involved with him and I know what you are saying, having been involved with married men twice (once decades ago and once inadvertently – that was MRN). But I never asked either to leave their wives for me. I think on both occasions I was going through some emotional upheavals/transitions, and was not interested in a ‘real’ relationship. The problem with MRN was not that it was an affair, though that might possibly have turned into a problem at some point. The problem was that he was a narc.

          24. SMH says:

            MB, Yes, that too. Sort of what I meant by psychological warfare. Proof that I went through this (and lived to tell the tale).

          25. MB says:

            SMH, I’ve got no proof. Even if I did, I would have to delete as part of No Contact. I deleted all emails and texts. All I have is my memory and what I can find on the internet if I’m in a stalking mood. (That’s a no no! I know! I know!)

          26. SMH says:

            MB, Good for you for deleting everything. You will get past the stalking too.

            I did not think about MRN once these past few weeks. A few things happened to speed things up/draw them to a conclusion and they are not all related to other men at all. Basically, I had a professional experience that reminded me of who I am and why I do what I do. It is more important to me than any man has ever been – in fact, I cannot tell you the number of relationships that have failed because my work comes before everything except for my son.

            I’ve also realized that MRN came along and I let him in because something was missing in my life. It wasn’t sex or emotional excitement or anything like that. I was bored and drifting. I am much more grounded now than I was a year ago and certainly way more than when I met MRN. You will get there too.

            I think it is really important that we look at ourselves, examine our own discontent, ask ourselves what is missing in our lives that we felt compelled to get that sort of dangerous excitement, and then change our lives so we do not need that anymore.

          27. Lou says:

            MB, SMH, sorry to chip in, but this reminds me of a friend of mine who, I believe, is with a narcissist as IPSS. I told her months ago I believed he’s a narc, explained for the second time already what NPD is, albeit in a very general way, and directed her to Narcsite. She is not interested in the subject (although he has had many narcs in her life) still thinks he’s the most wonderful man in the world and she very politely told me yesterday I was obsessed about narcissists and needed therapy. I am laughing out loud as I write this.
            Anyway, she told me yesterday the guy sent her a video of himself masturbating in the bathtub. I think she does not like it but excuses it saying he is just showing his passion for her because they live in two different countries and see each other only once a month. The guy is married but of course he hasn’t had any sex with his wife in ages and she is the first and only woman he has had free and satisfying sex with.

          28. MB says:

            Lou, some people think I’m obsessed about narcissism too. I’ve toned it down a lot. HG has a Narc Tale about the empath that cried narcissist.

          29. NarcAngel says:

            Do you find it odd that she told you that considering that you have tried to explain narcissism to her? Especially if you think she did not appreciate his actions? I laughed too because someone once expressed to me concern that I was involved with “some kind of cult”.

          30. Lou says:

            MB, NA, I actually speak very little about NPD because I know people aren’t interested or ready to accept it. I just mention NPD when I think it can resonate with the person. I mention it very discretely to see if there is an interest and then I either shut up or continue. In general, I just shut up. I told this friend about NPD more openly because I think she is going to be hurt big time and it won’t be the first time. But she is obviously not interested to learn about it and that’s fine with me. It is her life and choice and I already did what I thought I had to do.

  28. baileykaren2011 says:

    When one of his ex wives messaged me a picture of him and the woman he had been living with for the past three years. I was at work and had to deal with it there. This woman had no idea there was me in his life. A shock to both of us. I wouldn’t have even considered staying me but she stayed. She said she had too much invested in him. She ain’t seen nothing yet!!!

  29. JustEmpath says:

    – I found out he didn’t finish the university
    – after the discard during which I was told I was not mature enough for a long term relationship he craves so much I disccovered that during whole relationship he was flirting with others online, even prostitutes. The whole discard speech was a projection.
    – I found out that poems and songs he used to send me as “ours” he also used to send to his previous girlfriends.
    – and many more

  30. jessrnny says:

    None of the above occurred. I haven’t dealt with much infidelity from my narcissists. Definitely flirting but I’ve dated mostly cerebrals and I believe a MMRN Victim. Not much desire there…. I expect people to be watching fetish porn and other things so I never would have thought that was abnormal. In fact, I do most of the things on this list😳

    Anywhoo! With the ULN he dragged my arm across a broken stained glass window several times and gave me six stitches. I was horrified. You can’t win with a Lesser because you will be injured. You are not physically safe.

    The MMRN horror moment was his Stranger Mode. The article used to be titled “Why does he seem so odd?” but has changed recently. He gave me his son’s old phone and monitored my whereabouts. I went out one night without him and told him I was doing so. Overnight he hated me and I could feel it. He still made plans with me. The look on his face was terrifying and his eyes were black. I went No Contact. Being away from him made me feel the most awful I’ve ever felt in my life. I was unstable and it confused me …..I had already been to hell and back several times. This led me to find HG’s “Empathic Supernova” article. This was a long ongoing horror moment.

    I had been No Contact with Greg the Greater for 7 months and it still hadn’t occurred to me that he was abusing me. There had been no severe bouts of nausea for 12 hours at a time for no reason what so ever. He tried to tell his friends that I was a lush but….seven months away and I never got sick again. He was poisoning me. More horror. I lost the job that I had at this time and isolated myself for two months before the MR came back and was so pitiful that I took him back. I don’t know how I survived all this.

    You can choose the narcissist or you can choose yourself. You won’t have both.

    1. blackunicorn123 says:

      Good last line, Jess! Spot on.

    2. Lorelei says:

      Hi Jess—I just noticed this comment and it’s nice. Yes, you won’t have both:)!

  31. Narc noob says:

    HG mine isn’t on your list and neither would I expect it to be – well, much like everyone else, I’m sure!

    FHM was when I discovered that N was a tech head and his MO is in hacking devices. I am not NC, it seems, but I don’t have the answers to do so yet.

    Irony in this is all is me finding you to help out. The one that wants to stay unseen and unnoticed. That was a double whammy FHM.

  32. Phoenix says:

    Well… my narc had discarded me and I was missing her desperately.
    Retrospectively, I see she had been goading me to explode but I had not. Instead I’d kept professing my love and adoration, blaming myself and saying that I would never regret us because we’d been SO in love.
    (this 2 months after the divorce I’d been manipulated into having to be with her and subsequent discard the week of my divorce!)
    After the profile on a swingers site she set up for me and blamed on my ex husband did also not produce the full desired explosion.. ( though I did report him to police on her insistence)… she sent her ex husband to provide me with tea and sympathy and offer me sex.
    Unbeknown to her, he genuinely felt for me and cared and was attracted to me.
    After weeks of getting close and being slammed down by all my attempts to speak to her…
    I did sleep with him. I was raw, was a total mess. For me, he was a surrogate for her, as close as I could get to her. The sex was insane and intense.

    He reported back to her that she shouldn’t have any more trouble with me.. As he’d slept with me.
    She responded (and I recall the exact words in the text)
    ‘good man, gory details later, I’m busy now’.

    Following this he told her everything, also that it was the best sex ever and she went through the roof.
    The abuse amplified further and the new supply was manipulated into an object of pure torture online.
    She told her ex he could ‘stop doing that now’ but he could see how he’d been used and I was suffering.
    So he carried on being an enormous support to me for the following 2 years whist suffering enhanced bullying from her and her coterie.

    I finally saw the text 4 months after it was sent. It was my full horror moment.
    There was absolutely no explaining it beyond monster.

    1. Joanne says:

      This is a crazy story. Were you able to repair things with your husband? Did you want to? I had a horror moment at the thought of this all happening right after the divorce you were persuaded to have. I put myself in your shoes, knowing the very same could’ve happened to me – and really felt my stomach drop.

      1. Phoenix says:

        No… But 4 years on and it was a blessing.
        My ex husband is autistic and I now get on really well with his new girlfriend. She calls me her sister wife!

      2. Phoenix says:

        I had tried to hang on to my marriege though he was autistic and made no stand for me.
        I went back to him twice, trying to give up the narc.. The second time she destroyed her dog to get me back in her bed. She did this Oscar winning wailing and ‘I can’t live without you’ display.
        I stayed the night and he began the divorce the next day.

      3. Phoenix says:

        This narc has an IQ of 150.
        I’ve always thought greater narc..?
        I fancied her and told her so.. She had never been with a woman and was married. After saying oh but no..! She left her husband of 20 years and said let’s do this. She had me feel responsible for her from the start!
        But she messed up with me. She mistook me for a codependant empath like her mother.
        That’s not me, I spent 30 years pleasing my mum out of choice. I got off on making her happy. I didn’t have to do that, she’d have loved me all the same.

        Maybe HG has ideas on her narc type? And my empathic leaning?

  33. Lorelei says:

    I didn’t know the N word but I realized how “not fairy tale” things were when he confessed to losing high six figures gambling in the stock market when pregnant with our youngest child. It was the beginning of the end—I was already unhappy which went from bad to deplorable over eight following years. I actually filed for divorce after my youngest was born for a period of time. It wouldn’t have mattered had I left then—I would have been miserable again with another just like him. Your work will prevent me from repeating the cycle.

  34. zwartbolleke says:

    I connected very well with his daughter, neither of us had ever realised psychopaths are real people who live amongst us. It is by talking a lot with each other we started to trust out gut feeling that somethings just were too crazy or wrong or false or fake, he told different stories to both of us about the same situation so we were very very sure at least one of them and probably both stories were lies. The place where he worked was different depending if it was told to me or to his daughter.
    So if I look back, it was my good connection with his daughter that unmasked him, for both of us.
    (Sorry for my bad English, not my language)

    1. NarcAngel says:


      Welcome. No need to apologize as I understood you perfectly well. Thank you for sharing your experience and I hope you continue to participate.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Zwartbolleke, many people here are non-native English speakers too, including myself. Don’t feel bad about it or apologize. I wish I had had an ally to unmask my narc like you did with his daughter, good job supporting each other, sisters!

  35. WhoCares says:

    “The Full Horror Moment is when you make a discovery about that person which, in essence, tears apart your world. It occurs when you are not physically present with the individual.”

    No. I was physically present for both my full horror moments – romantic and familial entanglement – and then I high-tailed it out of there…

  36. MB says:

    Great poll HG! I’m looking forward to reading the responses. My full horror moment wasn’t nearly as dramatic as any of these, but I remember it well. It was before I knew of your work. I was on the beach reading ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ searching for answers. Once I reached the point of reading enough to see a pattern of aggregate behaviors, I became sick to my stomach at the realization of what I’d been dealing with. I have the same sensation now as I recall the memory. It is serving me well to remain no contact.

    1. Joanne says:

      What made you choose that book? Were you already suspecting him of being a narc? Was that a good book? It keeps popping up as a recommendation for me. Lately, I’ve been reading lots of survivor memoirs which have blown my mind. It’s frightening enough to read bits of others’ stories on the blog – but to hear a survivor tell a story from start to end is just something else 🙁

      1. MB says:

        Joanne, there was something that spurred me to look into a darker direction for the answers I seeked. I think it was something on ID. Probably ‘Evil Lives Here’.

        I had a very similar conversation to the one in HGs article he just posted today “I Told You So” that I recalled when watching the program. It was a hunch and I *hoped* it was a dead end, but as I read, I knew. Sociopath. It was a couple of years later that my mother told me about this book she was reading written by a creepy guy, HG Tudor, that made her blood run cold. When she told me about narcissism, I made the connection. It hit me like a bolt of lightning. I bought the book the next morning and connected every dot.

        Wanna know what he told me in the ‘I Told You So’ convo? “I killed my first wife you know.” I laughed. I laughed at every reason he gave me not to get involved with him. He always made me laugh. Was it a joke? Who jokes about shit like that? Psychopaths. Psychopaths joke about shit like that.

        1. Joanne says:

          I had pretty similar “I told you so” conversations. Every time that article comes around I roll my eyes thinking of those conversations we had. He also said something to me, along those lines… not so much about directly killing his exwife but wishing for her death in a very specific way, so he could collect her life insurance. That is also no joking matter.

          I didn’t know it was your mother who introduced you to HG! How did that all come about?

          1. MB says:

            Joanne, I don’t know what led my mother to start reading HGs book. And even more puzzling is why she felt compelled to tell me over dinner the bit in the book about him keeping the pictures he’s sent. It struck panic in me. I thought she knew what I’d done. Good thing it was dark or she’d have seen all the color drain from my face. Turns out, she didn’t know and furthermore never even finished the book. If you ask me, I think it was divine intervention. My guardian angel spoke to me through her and led me to the answers to the questions that were killing me. My searching ended when I found the Holy Grail, His Greatness, HG Tudor.

          2. MB says:

            p.s. because of her guidance in the right direction, and my passion for learning the subject, I have educated her as best I can (she can’t stomach HG to get the BEST education)

            She asks me questions and has asked me to send articles specific to situations. Her work provides a platform for her to help people and she relies on me as a resource. It’s depressing the number of people that need this information.

            I’ve also discovered that her husband is a MR Elite N. Of course she trusts me for information for others, but denies my analysis of him. I want her to get a Narc Detector. Hell, I’ll even pay for it!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Ready and waiting

          4. MB says:

            I think my mother is hesitant to do the ND because she doesn’t know what that would mean for her future. (And deep down, she fears I may be correct.) It’s one thing to GOSO when you’re younger. It’s all together different when you’re at a later point in life. What is your response to people of social security age? Does the first GROF still apply?

          5. NarcAngel says:

            I’m sure the rules and advice apply no matter the age, it’s up to the recipient what they do with that information. If your Mother’s concern is that she would be expected to leave, that is entirely and always her choice, but even if she did not, it may for example help her in resolving some issues/blame/guilt she has attributed to herself or her actions during the relationship, or help her to better navigate it. I wonder if she has considered that.

          6. MB says:

            NA, she doesn’t talk to me about it. I imagine that behind closed doors, her life is less than ideal. She only sees us (her children) when he’s out of town, which is not very often. She’s a different person when he’s not around. I think that is instinctive behavior and she doesn’t even realize that she is different. But it shows clearly who is in control.

            My sister is the same. I can only talk to her on the phone when her husband is not around. (Before him, we talked nearly every day.) I can tell when he comes in because her demeanor changes and she takes on a patronizing mousy voice. It’s sickening. I tell her he must be home now and quickly let her go.

            I hope there is another way of existence for both of them, but I honestly see them both too beat down to try anymore 😢

    2. Bibi says:

      I listened to that book on audio–it is available on YT for free. This was pre-HG, of course.

      I will chime in and say that since the Mid Ranger and I were not romantically involved, my horror was a bit less, but still horrible to see that he thought so little of me to just tell me he was gay, much less all the secrets he’d been keeping.

      As I have mentioned before, when I asked why didn’t he just tell me he said, ‘I am not going to tell you for your convenience.’

      For me, I felt like Nora in A Doll’s House, suddenly realizing what Torvald really was. Very callous and cold.

  37. Tappi Tikarrass says:

    During the third reengagement, there were other behaviours which reared their heads again and so I was already in a state of disappointment when I had the joy of finding out he was grooming and subsequently screwing a girl 23 years younger than himself.

    In the final death throes of ‘act iii’ he began texting me from another number without realising- at least not consciously-. I kept that blunder under my hat until the time was right. Of course there was complete denial and deflection when I presented him with my evidence.

    In the last few months, despite the emotional load I was carrying, I could see that he couldn’t not behave (deny, deflect and lie) any other way.

    I could see the defence mechanism in action. He couldn’t help it and he knew I realised too.

    I wouldn’t let him come near me either physically or electronically. I stopped replying to his words.

    My Full Aha Moment was reading the golden rule of freedom no. 3- There can be no change. I lived it. My head accepted this but it took my heart quite a while to accept those words.

    The right no contact was implemented after reading those golden rules. I wrote them out, stuck the rules on my fridge. The rules often pop into my thoughts, I’d made such a mantra out of them.

    The one that’s prominent these days is
    Never Immune, Always Resisting

  38. Debs says:

    Had various signs over the years that something wasn’t right. To begin with great about a year in withdrawing cold moody belittling etc etc. Left a couple of times and went back.

    On holiday discovered his cheating. Knew he’d done it before couldn’t prove it this time I could and he lied, projected, blame shifted, move bombed and then disengaged and discarded brutally when I said I couldn’t see him anymore while he was lying and cheating and refusing to give up his friend of course friends say they love each other all the time right? And of course his friend was lying after he said after 3 weeks that they would be moving in together.

    Then when I refused and said no and walked he went into a horrific rage and tried to kill me in his car screaming abuse at me it was frightening.

    Haven’t seen him since except through his stalking and now started getting email hoovers the I miss you I’m always here for you I know you hate me crap. Deleted and blocked and will continue to do no matter how many new email addresses he creates! Still with his new supply she is completely oblivious to how he is and how she has been love bombed. Red flags everywhere but she’s very young very naive and he’s her soul mate.

    No contact is great gives you your freedom it’s a white knuckle ride but when the fog clears and you keep reading HG’s posts you start to understand and your life seems to have more hope. I did climbed the O2 last week something I always wanted to do and it felt great! Who needs the ex narc? I know I don’t haha!

  39. Presque Vu says:


    The biggest FHM. He was obsessed with a certain webcamming site, I wondered why… we would watch it together at times, it never phased me THAT WAS UNTIL I went on there one time when he was giving me the silent treatment (yet again) and I saw him camming in the cross dressing category shoving a dildo up his arse! I knew he liked to dress up – we had done it together – I bought him a wig! It all clicked into place.

    I wanted to fucking kill him!

  40. mai51 says:

    Oh Jeez, so hard to explain, but….

    He casually mentioned how amazing it was meeting his 7 month old daughter for the first time…. We’d been dating for a year by this stage and he had never mentioned his ex, or the fact she was expecting. In fact, during our first month he had mentioned how he never wanted another child and was pleased to learn I didn’t want kids.

    He went on to triangulate me, her, and his daughter over the next 2 years…. even inviting them over whilst I slept upstairs, knowing I could hear everything. Sick fuck.

    This followed his mentioning of his adult daughter a few months into our relationship. And further on he mentioned his severely autistic son who he hadn’t seen in 14 years.

    We were in an LDR and I went to stay with him. His best friend, Larry, (who I would term an acquaintance, bc my ex had no real, long term friends) looked at me so strangely. Very different to his interactions in the past. More like shame and pity. I picked up on it straight away, and now know, I was well and truly being smeared.

    My ex had been upfront with owing child support for his autistic son to the tune of USD 100K. I knew this would preclude him getting a passport, which was a deal breaker for me, as I am a nomadic person, but I would have been in a position to pay it, and gladly so. However, he received a letter from child support services about his first child, an adult girl, asking for payment and arrears. Another 100K. My heart sank.

    And finally, when I was staying with him, his phone buzzed….. he ALWAYS kept it locked and in sight, but this time he was in the bathroom, and it was neither. I glanced at the phone and saw a message saying, “Oh shame you’re not free tonight, but next time I’ll bring nail clippers…. I’ve still got scratches”…..

    I was broken. He had always professed fidelity, said what we had was so special that he couldn’t ever be with someone else.

    He was also into extreme fetishes, but to be honest, they weren’t deal breakers for me….

    1. Bekah B says:


      This struck a cord with me.. I am sorry you have gone through this.. The father of my children (3 year old daughter and soon-to-be born son) is a MRN and is currently in a long distance relationship with his IPPS.. This is my first experience with him having a relationship like this, as the others he has had in the past were all with women who lived in our state.. I am not sure, but I do believe it is easier for the narcissist to hide and keep uncovered a variety of things from their primary source, simply because they aren’t around to check up on them and verify the stories that are being told.. I am willing to bet that my children’s father has still yet to tell her I am expecting and have been expecting the entire time he has known her.. That, in fact, when he found out I was pregnant again he discarded me, met her, and secured her as IPPS.. I do believe she knows of me, simply because of our three-year-old, but again, I am willing to bet she doesn’t know he left me because I became pregnant and that’s obviously something he didn’t want to deal with.. Sometimes I believe he tells her when he comes back home that he spends time with his daughter or that he is in communication with his older daughter.. But then at other times I believe he may be smearing me and the mother of his older daughter, saying we don’t allow him to have contact with his children.. Idk–I go back and forth with what he may be saying.. But what I know for certain is he is not telling her the truth and she is ultra-vulnerable to this simply because she does not live here.. What decent woman would stay with a man who told her he just recently left his partner because he impregnated her again and didn’t want to have to deal with her pregnancy or the arrival of his child? None that I know of, so my guess is he is lying and withholding information.. That’s what they do.. Just lie.. Smh..

      1. mai51 says:

        Bekah, I’m really sorry you’re having to go through this….. I can’t imagine how awful it must be dealing with a pregnancy, break up and no doubt triangulation with the new IPPS….

        These men are cowards to their very core…. always taking the easy way out, or doing whatever suits them best…. their sense of entitlement is absolutely mind blowing!

        Compare with the man I’m currently seeing, who has not drip fed me information, and introduced me to his children within a few months. I also get along well with his ex-wife…. but he is a neurotypical, so it’s a lovely, calm, normal relationship!

  41. Tammy says:

    My ex narcissist came crawling back to me after a horrible discard. We had been broken up for about a year. He realized I had moved on. He was literally in tears telling me he finally realized how much he loved me and wanted marriage (after being apposed for 9 years). I said I would consider it. I was dating someone new and eventually agreed to end it and give the narc another chance. I didn’t know what he was at the time. Within a few days he started acting different again. Within a couple weeks he treated me like I was a stranger. We had plans to take a small vacation and the night before he started a fight with me and said I wasn’t going. He went without me and stopped replying to my messages. After several days he finally answered an email and explained to me how it was all my fault, I was too difficult, and it was over. I later discovered his girlfriend was still living with him. Hey married her shortly after with the ring he claims to have had made for me. It was then I realized he had something seriously wrong. I could not believe someone could come back into your life and uproot it and dump you again in such a quick manner. I’m not surprised, looking back, he had discarded me many times before. Somehow I fell for it one last time because he was so convincing. So glad I’ve learned what I know now.

    1. Joanne says:

      Wow, that is horrific…. I’m so sorry 🙁

  42. Ana says:

    I think i am yet to get mine. As i still believe he will give me my money back. Although he hasnt so far, after asking multiple times. It is nearly all i have and i desperately need it.

    1. Tammy says:

      Ana, you need to kiss the money goodbye. You will never see it. Cut your losses now and go no contact. It’s the only way.

    2. E. B. says:

      Hello Ana,
      Have you seen the article ‘How to Make a Request to the Narcissist’? It has some helpful advice. If you need the money back, I would also consult with HG as to how to proceed.

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