Little Acons – No. 34


122 thoughts on “Little Acons – No. 34

  1. Kiki says:

    Hg I’m feeling very very confused right now

    Please here me out this is no insult to anyone here but here goes

    There are empaths here and are struggling with their narc entanglement
    Yet every post I look at are gushing comments about about your car or your Hunter boots or some other thing about you

    I’m sorry if this offends but is that a weird ET towards you

    I’m seriously confused right now

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Not every post is about my car or my boots. Yesterday there were over 440 comments. I estimate about 20 revolved around those items, 30 at best. That is less than 10%, therefore 90% of comments were nothing to do with my car or boots.
      2. I am not sure what you are asking. Do you mean “Why are people talking about those things, when they should be addressing their entanglement?” If so,
      a. People take an interest in me because they like me and they are grateful for the help I have given them. They find me intriguing; and
      b. It is a distraction from time to time from what can be a hard topic for some people.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Hmmm whilst on the subject of possessions…

        Whilst all Ns do a certain degree of showing off, of course it comes with the teritory, With greaters it is far more subtle, they let you know they are better than you and have more/earn more than you etc but it does not dominate a conversation just the odd subtle hint at it here and there so you are reminded of their greatness and superiority over you and everyone else. So that people do genuinely admire them etc generally speaking anyway.

        However there is a certain type of N – midrange I believe who are almost incapable of holding a conversation where at least 99% of it is them bragging. They also seem to live far beyond their means, they may live in a council house and have a brand new Range Rover parked outside which they are now heavily in debt for. they brag about what they wear, what they eat, where they go. Their conversations are tiresome and tedious and you have to pretend you’re wowed by their mere existence lol

        Is that more fitting of a LMR?

      2. cb says:

        Absolutely After irl hoover yesterday (probably due to sunny weather & triggered by me blocking her new FB accounts, haven t seen mom for years) where I had to make my kids walk fast with me, and report to the police (an officer aware of NPD problematics on the phone) it was a breezy relief just going back to reading witty stuff here in the evening. Oh yes.

      3. Caroline R says:

        HG and Kiki
        Re: Point 2b
        True. It could be considered as a defusion technique, to look at something else that’s emotionally benign, while seeing the emotionally charged thing only in your peripheral vision.
        It’s the emotional equivalent of going outside and looking up at the beautiful sky, and breathing in fresh air.
        It’s a little break from the intensity.

    2. FYC says:

      Kiki I am very sorry for your pain and if I can help, let me know. I remember when that pain was all engulfing. Some of us empaths have emerged from that difficult space and enjoy a moment of fun from time to time. My comment that started the convo on HG’s boots was a bit of sarcasm towards the seagull that appeared. And as is the case with most things in life, the conversation took a turn. This is very normal in communication. We are social beings. I believe it is healthy to give commenters room to have a bit of fun in the midst of a heartbreaking topic, but please know that we always care very much and are here to help too.

  2. Klo says:

    Spot the hell on! He wouldn’t even let me crap in peace! He knew it pissed the hell out of me, and always came barging through the door! F’n weirdo.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes and a clear example of :-

      1. Sense of entitlement;
      2. Poor or no boundary recognition; and
      3. Lack of empathy.

      Everybody needs to be able to PIP.

      1. MB says:

        HG, is it too late to add PIP to the acronyms list?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is. That one does not need to be added MB!

      2. Lorelei says:

        My dad actually left a nude pic of his genitals out for me to see.. Thank God he never touched me HG. Just being creeped out all the time was horrible enough. He used to self pleasure with his door cracked. I’m appalled and disgusted thinking of it. Always talking about how beautiful my friends were. Pornography littered around.. It’s no wonder I was conditioned from the get go..

        1. MB says:

          We found pornography too. At least he did try to hide it. I had a friend (abused by her father) that developed a “crush” on my father. 🤢

          1. Lorelei says:

            He was a really disturbed man MB. I have no ill feelings now—I just feel educated.

          2. MB says:

            Lorelei, I have no bad feelings. But no good ones either. Apathetic describes it fairly well. I feel I’ve been Zero Impact my entire life where he’s concerned.

          3. Lorelei says:

            I would say that emotionally I feel “zero impact” toward him regarding being “upset” however, the damage created a lack of normal boundaries, a threshold for awful behavior which led to me staying in a sick marriage and on and on. There had to be a beginning—this is part of it. He’s been deceased for nearly nine years. Many other things he did that scream narcissist but this was the biggest violation toward me. Triangulation with being the favorite was a big one too as my brothers were belittled quite a bit.

        2. K says:

          A dick pic from dear ol’ dad. Well, that will fuck you up. I’m gonna go with thought fuel on the dick pic and potential proximate fuel, as well as thought fuel, re: the self-pleasuring with the door cracked. Hitting on your friends is just plain creepy.

          1. Lorelei says:

            K it was insanity. It was so ridiculous a narc detector would be unnecessary.

          2. K says:

            That is exactly what I thought growing up; insanity! His narcissism is rather blatant so I think it’s unnecessary. Plus, the narcissistic relationship ends when one of you dies so let sleeping dogs lie.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Exactly K. It hit in the most brilliant way though when the realization sunk in—it meant something. Things began to make sense.

          4. K says:

            That’s an “Aha Moment” and that’s how you know you are getting better. You will have many “Aha moments” on narcsite. I still do.

          5. Lorelei says:

            Haha—I got a “Hoover text” from a guy today. Unrecognized number as I had him deleted etc. First text: “Hope you are well.”
            I had a feeling it was one of my deleted on purpose folks but I did get a message recently from a cousin and had I not responded I’d have missed a nice chat. I asked who it was. The response nearly word for word: “Alrighty then, don’t even remember me. Never mind—“Lorelei*”
            I quickly determined it was “Mr. Submission sex master” (cute guy yes) but oh thank goodness I never never officially went out and got involved with him mainly because I had just found the blog. Little things were clicking here and there. Frankly I have never looked to date—they find me! My boundaries are firmer and firmer and the aha moments are increasing exponentially. Let’s just say HG would probably agree from the one sentence he sent me that his narc detection is done/signed & sealed, save me the trouble! HG is teaching so thoroughly one can consider his interactive blog almost akin to pro bono work! Oh, and the EMDR shit that was suggested I embark upon—holy shit balls that is stupid. I’d like to know what people think they are getting out of that bullshit. The therapy folks think it’s an essential life changing ingredient I sent HG a link to the Melanie Tonia whatever quantum healing crap last week because it’s so absurd. I think we are in the right and best place K.

          6. K says:

            Ha ha ha….you are a Narc Magnet and always will be. “Mr. Submission sex master” wasn’t important enough to be remembered by you, so he was probably mildly wounded by this perceived slight…ha ha ha. No narc detector needed in this situation.

            Those aha moments will keep coming and your boundaries will just keep getting firmer and firmer; it snowballs. Narcsite is a lifesaver, it’s gratis and there’s no EMDR bull shit or platitudes. You are absolutely right; it’s the best place to be for NPD abuse/information.

            We don’t need quantum healing crap, hypnosis or self-actualization, just the brutal truth and logic.

          7. Lorelei says:

            K—Yes indeed. I mean to be honest he was really enticing but only momentarily and he really created a disinterest to flourish as quickly as the initial intrigue occurred. It’s almost embarrassing but maybe more redemptive because I quickly became turned off. He started out talking/hinting at a saucy vanilla sort of thing and was escalating and mentioned a weird website (Fetlife or some such nonsense) and then sent a few photos and I was DONE. He was gradually testing the waters and sent a photo of a woman in a compromising situation and it hit me that this trajectory could never be healthy and I had to focus on my kids/myself. I genuinely was really naive to it all. I mean I’ve done a few saucy things in my youth but not anything like that, nor do I plan to. The problem with the other narcissist platforms is the lack of logical application and solid education. The healing feel good stuff is plentiful. It’s not arming people optimally though. My boundaries are shifting like never before. I’m evaluating ALL aspects of my life. I don’t see most men/women I know doing this amount of work post divorce, but I see them often floundering in new unhealthy situations. (Not judging—I did a little obviously and HG has saved me from this path.) I’m even re-evaluating my work scenario, future education.. I was preparing for a post masters psych NP—not now. I may just instruct university courses online casually to keep me at home more. I have had epiphany upon epiphany re, past/current and future relationships. I have strategy based on my soon to be ex husband’s profile to manage behavior.. It’s coming together.

          8. K says:

            There’s a lot of kinky shit out there and, like you, I am not interested in that crap. I would rather focus on the kids and myself, too.

            The healing aspects on other platforms do have some value, however, it isn’t helpful if you don’t truly understand what you are dealing with and I think narcsite provides both the logic and the support that’s needed to heal and move forward and most platforms don’t offer that.

            I think you’re right; a lot of people don’t want to put in the work or effort to get their shit together; they would rather be on FB or whine about how it all went wrong again. When you establish firm boundaries, it shifts your thinking and it makes things clearer. We don’t have to put up with other people’s drama anymore, now we just GOSO and life is so much easier.

          9. Lorelei says:

            Morning K! I actually do like one other person, although, her stuff is much different and it’s not an interactive environment. It offers some benefit for different reasons some of the time.
            This is going to sound potentially unkind but.. (I may get slammed) A casual friend recently divorced is all over the dating sites—ghosted, baffled, ghosted more.. She is now on a site for overweight dating which could be somewhat of a kink for certain people I think? I’m sure there are nice people on there but she attracts what I feel are narcissists.. It’s just a disaster. She is very overweight and extremely vulnerable/self conscious and has zero inclination to hear subtle hints that these men do not have her best interests in mind. She is out all the time and is obsessed with finding a mate. I’m so glad for HG having totally demolished any inclination to have any part of it at this point. It’s because the work is so good that the insight is therefore bountiful which fulfills any vacancy. I also feel like I was released from daily water boarding and dating seems mostly like drowning all over again potentially. HG will have to do a full body analysis of anyone I give a second date to ever! Just getting on a first date may take a long time. I’m not attracted to normal men and a coupled life isn’t even a big deal to me.
            I’m so glad for you, HG, others I’ve engaged with over the past almost year..

          10. K says:

            Thank you Lorelei
            Good morning! There are other sites that aren’t bad at all and offer different benefits, plus, it’s good to compare and contrast other forums so you know what’s out there.

            You are not being unkind. This casual friend reminds me of an individual I know, that I think may be a CoD. It is very frustrating because people don’t want to hear the truth/logic and then they keep coming back with tale after tale of woe and angst and “Why did he do that?” But why?”

            You patiently explain the Absent Silent Treatment (ghosting), you tell them about narcsite and NPD and they don’t listen to a damn thing you say because their ET is off the charts. It’s like banging your head against the wall.

            Back away from the casual friend, then turn around and run as fast as you can! Save yourself.

            I agree; Thank God for you, the others and narcsite and to Hell with dating.

          11. Lorelei says:

            Yes K—I also hate people saying, “you are just burned—give it time..” (regarding dating)
            I was laughing with some gentleman and my friend suggested I was flirting. Uh not at all. Not even unconsciously—it was collegial banter and I’m allowed to talk to the opposite sex and laugh. “You are too pretty to be alone.” I love being alone and I look nice when I want because there was a time I could hardly shower ok—oh and I had gained weight and lost it when he left which isn’t because I wanted to date. It was because I’d never been in such deplorable shape and the weight began falling off after I stopped drinking two bottles of wine or whatever else to cope on a daily basis.. Self care is not the equivalent of being attractive to achieve coupledom! That is my response to dating. Dating feels almost like water boarding and compromising my soul. A healthy empathic man is not appealing either because it’s not a necessity.

          12. K says:

            People say the dumbest shit! Especially, when they try to analyze/diagnose you or suggest that you were flirting, when you clearly weren’t. And you were NOT just burned! You were in an ABUSIVE relationship with a DISORDERED individual who has absolutely NO conscience or empathy! Morons.

            Narcissists fuck you up in so many ways: your looks, finances, children, health, friends and home are neglected.
            Next thing you know, you’re a raging meth head! You will know when you are ready to date again, just ignore everyone around you; they don’t know shit from Shinola.

          13. Lorelei says:

            It was dumb especially because I’d never flirt with them anyway because of why they were there and who they were! They’d never be in my radar! (I’ll refrain from elaborating as it’s not necessary and a lot to explain.) It was impossible. I was being nice because once in awhile it does happen when the stars and the moon align. You are correct—it wasn’t being burned. It was like being buried alive.

          14. K says:

            Some people are idiots, just ignore them. Tortured, buried alive, then dug up and tortured all over again. Repeat.
            NPD abuse is a serious public health issue that’s unrecognized and misunderstood by many, including therapists. “Just burned” WTF!

          15. Lorelei says:

            Indeed K. It is a huge public health issue. Just last night I had a friend over for dinner. She is a dancer (college dance major and teacher now) and referred to her former colleague as a narcissist. It was in relation to my ex but she had made an independent correlation at one time and did some “research.” She knows my ex well and was even at our wedding. Co-worker the day before talking about her narcissist dad.. Term came freely from her mouth. It’s gaining traction.

          16. K says:

            This was very comforting to read: It’s gaining traction. Slowly but surely.

          17. Lorelei says:

            The unfortunate piece is that it’s complex and people with the “right credentials” don’t know what it is all about. So, the recognition is good but.. We got lucky.

          18. Lorelei says:

            K—Alexis said you may be able to find HG talking about a female narc in his workplace at one time. I was curious of his shenanigans in relation to other narcs..

          19. NarcAngel says:

            Search Valentine venom

          20. K says:

            Thank you NarcAngel.
            Last night, narcsite was painted black, something must have happened in the fuel matrix because now it’s painted white.

          21. NarcAngel says:


            It’s like day and night.

          22. K says:

            Ha ha ha…thanks for the laugh!

          23. Lorelei says:

            Read—a brand of vigilantism!

      3. Caroline R says:

        The Romans were clever with lots of their ideas, but communal toilets was not one of them.

    2. MB says:

      Klo, my dad often had bathroom emergencies when we (the daughters) were taking baths. Our house had one bathroom & no shower. Only a free standing bath tub with no curtain. We were never allowed to lock doors in the house either. Coincidence? I think not. If you think it’s awkward with somebody in there when YOU are pooping, imagine the horrifying awkwardness as a teenager naked in the bathtub with your dad pooping in the same room with no curtain!

      What is even more horrifying is that it was “normal” in our house.

      1. K says:

        In my world, that’s fucked up. Are you sure your father isn’t a narcissist?
        And removing doors from hinges isn’t normal either. I would never, ever violate a child’s/teenager’s privacy like that.

        1. Twilight says:


          Disrespect me, think your sneaking girls (I had three boys) in at night damn straight that door came off it’s hinges.

          I think it depends on the circumstances when it is done.

          1. MB says:

            I agree Twilight. Sometimes the end does justify the means. The phone got yanked off the wall if it rang at dinner too. (back when phones were on the wall)

          2. K says:

            Ha ha ha…it’s the motivation that makes all the difference, controlling (abusive) or responsible parenting.

          3. Twilight says:

            K and MB

            It is always the intentions behind ones actions.

            My son threaten me once he was going to report me for abuse. He had made friends with some children who used this to control their mother to do what they wanted.
            I would be damned if my son was going to do that with me. I corned him as soon as the threat come out of his mouth. Calmly explained to him I would dial the number and he could report me, I also informed him due to the chances I would be taking a trip to jail I would make sure this would happen and he would learn exactly what abuse was by my hand. I told him I would beat him within seconds of his life and he would be going to the hospital and I would make that trip to jail. Now I did give him a choice to proceed as he planned or be grounded for two weeks…… he chose wisely and was grounded for two weeks never to try that particular manipulation on me again.

            Like I said I would be damn if my child was going to manipulate me and control things to.

          4. K says:

            Ha ha ha….well, he thought he was clever and it looks like his plan backfired. I was very lucky my children never pulled stunts like that.

          5. Twilight says:


            Two of my children grew up following their dads footateps.
            The oldest (the one who pulled that stunt) ex wife came to me and I was brutally truthful with her about the future she would have with him and they divorced only for her to fall into the hands of one far worse then my son.

            I don’t hold back, they fuck up and I have been no contact with both of them for almost 5 years now to.
            I have been no contact with my family for 10 years and damn near had heart failure when my sibling contacted me via FB. I was actually expecting her to tell me my mother had passed away.

            Lol I take the door slam to an entire new level.

            I became aware of behaviors and the way they respond to reactions around age 16 and have been honing things ever sense. It is only when I fall in love I become blind as a bat. As time goes on this decreases, only with Jon did I experience cognitive dissonance I believe that was due to he actually told me the truth and didn’t lie. That messed me up when his viscous side came out to play.

          6. K says:

            Oh man, that’s awful and I am very sorry that two of your children have followed in their dad’s footsteps. It’s bad enough to have to go NC with your birth family but to go NC with your children is heartbreaking. You have to do it, but it’s sad, too. It’s a loss that I couldn’t imagine.

            When I was a child, I was aware that something wasn’t right but I didn’t know what. It felt like I was living in a foreign country and we spoke different languages. Love is blind and it took a long time for the cognitive dissonance to disappear.

            When their true colors show; it’s a complete and utter shock.

          7. Lorelei says:

            I’m also sorry Twilight. I’m concerned about a situation as well re, a close member of the family but I’ll refrain from elaborating. It’s heart wrenching because I just didn’t know what was happening when this was potentially developing.

        2. MB says:

          K, it IS fucked up! Writing it out like that made me realize just how much. And what kind of mother allows her daughters to be violated in that way? I could tell many stories. Things that we thought were normal that are even more fucked up than this. Good news is that he never touched me or my two younger sisters. We have our doubts about our older sister. (the oldest) Is it possible for an abuser to do that with one and not the others?

          Either way, being looked at in a voyeuristic way as a child and teenager has affected me more than I realized. Apparently, molestation and intercourse aren’t the only forms of sexual abuse. Being desired sexually is tied up in my self-esteem and my self-worth. I did some work on this and it’s a thing. If one isn’t sexually desired, one is worthless. Explains a lot about my narc addiction and vulnerability, eh?

          Anyway, I thought about having the ND on my father, but what’s the point? I had already come to the conclusion that he’s a narc months ago. (I had blinders on up until then.) One morning, I woke up and listed all the flags and behaviors in my head; and declared to myself, “my father is a narcissist!” My guess is UMR E. He probably would have pushed things physically with me, (I was his favorite), but he didn’t have the balls. There were times, thinking back, that I got an icky feeling when we were alone together.

          There’s no value in rehashing the hash to do the ND. I don’t think there is anything to gain at this point. He is still alive, but plays only a tiny part in my life. All’s well that ends well. Bygones Daddy, bygones.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Well that may answer why your mother waa reading HG.

          2. MB says:

            NA, good thinking! Her father was a VN. And she has two N brothers. She didn’t have much of a chance of not being ensnared. She’s been divorced from my father for 25 years, but I have a strong suspicion that her current husband (that she married soon after the divorce) is a N too. If I were to do the ND consultation, it would be on him!

          3. K says:

            Yup that’s fucked! And that behaviour is very common among the lessers. Yeah, and what kind of mother allows that shit!?! WTF! That would never fly in my world. He didn’t need to touch you; he got thought fuel from the thrill and it’s very common for an abuser to physically/sexually abuse one child but not the others, which is a form of facade/gas lighting/triangulation.

            “How come dad never abused me/Susie/Jane? You are lying; you were never molested!”

            There are many, many different forms of sexual abuse. Oh yeah, I think he is a narc and what about your mother?

          4. MB says:

            K, I’m 99.9% sure my father is made of narc. I saw fury, but not smashing things and no physical abuse. He did play mind games with my mother. Guilt, silent treatments, threats, etc. He had a very good career and is super intelligent. His fury was expressed by shouting and STs. That’s why I say UMR E. Leaning more towards cerebral.
            My mother? Idk. I think CoD. She let him and (now her current husband) control her.

            I didn’t know it was abuse and I’m not going to dwell on it now. I am glad that I found this place and narcissism and got to the bottom of my toxic shame.

            I have AW to thank for being the catalyst of my healing journey. Maybe I should hit him up with a thank you text? Not!!!!

          5. K says:

            Your dad sounds like a mid-ranger and your mother may be a CoD. Don’t waste any time dwelling on it, just move forward.

            Thanks to my MMRN I found narcsite so I can protect my children and their friends but I won’t be sending him a thank you text either.

          6. Lorelei says:

            K—you are brilliant!

          7. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I am happy you think so, thank you!!!

          8. FYC says:

            MB, I am sorry you suffered this abuse. Was your mom a CoD?

          9. MB says:

            FYC, don’t be sorry. I didn’t know it was abuse. There are many good things about my childhood too. Yes, I think my mother is a CoD. She always acted as if she had no power. It’s almost like she was one of us. (She was a very young mother.)

          10. FYC says:

            MB, I have no doubt there were many good things too for you. Some abuse is more obvious than others. The more insidious forms of abuse are dangerous because they are effective yet discounted.

          11. Lorelei says:

            MB—they will at times only molest certain kids and not others. One heartbreaking example.. I had a patient once recovering from drugs. She told me a source of deep shame.. Her dad molested her sisters and not her. She felt “less than” because he rejected her in that way—but knew it was “shameful”’to consider that having been desired by him or wishing to reciprocate was wrong. I’ve never forgotten her. It was a very upsetting discussion and illustrated the mind fuckery they inflict.

          12. MB says:

            Claire, that is a heartbreaking story. I never knew of anything going on to be jealous or feel rejected. That IS messed up! For a child to feel bad for NOT being molested. But I can see how a sick fuck of a narc dad would purposely foster that attitude by triangulation. Bastard!

            We (my sisters and my mother) see the strange way my oldest sister acts toward him and about him. He can do no wrong. She adopts this sing song babyish tone to her voice around him. (Same as she uses with her narc husbands.) She is over the top with planning Father’s Day and his birthday family get togethers when she doesn’t on ANY other occasions. She was quite promiscuous as a young teenager. Idk, I hope he didn’t cross the physical line with her. I DO know his own father did with at least one of his sisters. It breaks my heart to think he did. I suppose I’ll never know and I’m not even sure I would want to. The past cannot be changed.

          13. Lorelei says:

            The story always stuck with me MB. She was a very broken woman and seemed very kind and filled with shame.

          14. Alexissmith2016 says:

            It’s not just the lesser mothers who ‘allow it’ to go on, they’re just not as good at the facade.

            Sadly it goes on amongst all echelons.

            And I think the MJ documentary portrays a different view compared to what I’ve seen on others about sexual abuse. It was incredibly eye opening and validating for victims who have never heard other victims speak so openly and honestly about how it made them feel, in particular the rejection felt when they’re replaced. Or perhaps I just havent watched enough.

            Yes it must be incredibly disturbing for a non abused sibling too.

          15. MB says:

            AS2016, where did you watch the MJ documentary? I’ve been wanting to see it. From what I could tell from reading, he used these young boys for IPPSs.

          16. Alexissmith2016 says:

            @MB I hope he did not cross the physical line with your sister either.

            It could just be thst she felt a lack of love from him and nothing more than that. She may just desperately be trying to seek his approval. And being promiscuous could be an indicator of either to be honest, always searching for love from a man which can never be found.

          17. MB says:

            AS2016, he wasn’t capable of loving any of us. Probably why every single one of us took up with the first male that paid us any attention at all. Three of us married the first one. We didn’t have a brother either. Don’t know if that would’ve helped or not.

          18. alexissmith2016 says:

            @MB it was broadcast a short while ago in the UK. I’m sure you’d be able to find it on google somehow?

            It was horrific how he allegedly used these boys, I’m not sure whether they would be categorised as primary or secondary sources.

            Either way, assuming there is any truth in it, they were replaced and I remember one or two of them talking about how desperate they were to spend the night with him. Which as I say, it could be that I’ve never seen this in another documentary, whilst upsetting and disturbing at the same time it was incredibly validating to hear. Most people describe the physical acts as the most distressing, and of course that is absolutely horrific too, there is no doubt about it at all. But where there is grooming there is emotional pain linked to that.

            If as adults we find the GP so exciting, lavished with gifts, admiration, love etc can you even begin to imagine what that must have been like as a child to be given so much by quite probably the most famous person in the world and then have it taken away from you. all of it, the grooming, the alleged abuse, unimaginable.

            God knows, for me thank god it wasn’t a family member. But the ignoring and not wanting you was the most painful part of it all. So hearing some of his alleged victims speak out was incredibly validating in that way. and for them it was on an unprecedented scale. For me, it was more of a bronze period, but when you have no love, bronze seems terribly appealing. (god knows I make sure everyone gives me a fucking platinum period for nothing whatsoever in return now hahah)

            As an adult after I went through my experience with the N, I pretty much regressed and healed from that place in a way I never could have at all. Obviously HG has to take a teeny bit of credit for that too. Just a teeny bit though xxx

          19. MB says:

            AS2016, I may try to find it. I’m interested but I know that it will upset me. Sometimes I bury my head in the sand so as not to feel the pain of things I can do nothing about. The past cannot be changed. Example: this morning I scrolled right on past a pic of a rhino whose horns had been harvested by poachers. Seeing horrific images like that stay with me. If I could go back before it happened and do something to stop it, that’s one thing. But to observe the carnage of the aftermath hurts too much and really is pointless. (The pic is still burned in my mind although seeing it only briefly.) I have a weakness for rejecting reality. If it’s painful, I’d rather not know about it. In fact, I’m embarrassed to say I’ve never even heard of the British politician HG is Tudorscoping next week. My distaste for negativity keeps me from following any news. The only current news I can say I know right now is that there is a hurricane called Barry in the Gulf of Mexico. Last I heard, it’s headed for Louisiana. (CNN was on when I was having my pedicure yesterday.) Being afraid to see bad news is making me ignorant to world events.

          20. Lorelei says:

            MB I don’t know the politician either. I don’t have time to follow politics currently, although I used to quite a bit. I check the weather and that’s it. I’m not interested in the shenanigans of people seeking power and while I miss some elements of it I have better things to do.

          21. MB – I don’t watch the news either. I may see the odd snippet here and there. It’s only through topical comedy panel shows that I even know whats going on in the world haha.

            Its not a bad thing MB to scroll on past the awful pictures. It can be incredibly distressing. But there is so much tragedy in the world that we can’t save everyone. It took me some time to realise that, as a child I would have and did help anyone very much to my own detriment. I don’t anymore.

            But the reality of it is, there is so much bad going on you have to learn when to help and when to protect yourself. Otherwise you’d be one giant emotional wreck!And that’s of no use to anyone. The main thing which goes in my favor is that my memory is so shockingly bad that I forget things pretty quickly.

            I try and help where I can but not so much so that it is to the detriment of myself. Would I walk on past someone in distress absolutely not! But would I sit there and view distressing images or scroll or look away, I’d look away.

            My good Samaritan attempts don’t always work out well for me though. I recall one particular occasion where I was driving along a dual carriage way. Not a high speed one, 40mph with some traffic lights. I was on my way to the gym early in the morning and I could see cars all slowing down and using one lane on the opposite side of the road. As I got closer I could see a homeless person face down in the middle of the road. Without thinking I slammed on my breaks and ran out of my car to help. All the other cars had been driving on by and he had clearly been there for some time. He was face down and conscious. Because you just tend to react in those kind of situations, I asked if he wanted my help to get out of the road. He managed to say yes, he was clearly very intoxicated. I bent down grabbed him under his arms and pulled him up. I hadn’t thought about how heavy someone not using their own body weight would be and therefore when I got him to almost standing position Ilost my grip of him. I put out my knee to save him and his groin area landed on it. Luckily at that point a few guys jumped out to help me. But it was too late for my knee which was now covered in his urine. I’m definitely not cut out for the hero thing lol in hindsight I should not have attempted to pick him up, Instead I should have stopped the traffic and called for assistance. But you just don’t think.

            Oh god, if you have not heard of Boris Johnson then you are truly missing out. Literally you have to google him and watch some of his buffoon moments!

            He is annoyingly likable but also incredibly easy to despise all at the same time. Definitely not leader material. I cannot wait to hear HGs views because I wonder how much of what he does is calculating, or not.

            I don’t follow politics too much, but I really do wonder what the world is coming to. And whilst I did not like Margaret Thatcher or what she stood for, she did have great leadership qualities.

            God with Trump and Boris in power it does not even bear thinking about! its like living in a cartoon world

        3. Caroline R says:

          I agree.
          Reading MB’s experience gives me that familiar tightness in my stomach that comes when my boundaries are trampled on.

          1. K says:

            Caroline R
            Exactly. After I read MB’s comment, I was thought: that ain’t right, and this needs to be addressed immediately. That was very upsetting to read. Children’s boundaries should be sacrosanct.

          2. MB says:

            I’m an ACON and didn’t even know it. I just get all kinds of labels here to explain my fucked upedness!

          3. K says:

            Ha ha ha….all this time I thought you had two normal-ish parents. You are just an ACON like the rest of us. Ha ha ha…welcome to The Club!

          4. MB says:

            K, what’s normal anyway?

          5. K says:

            Ha ha ha…we are all normal in our own way.

      2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest MB and klo,
        We have friends who are “legit nudists” …(Danes n Swedes) however that’s another story !
        This, on the other hand, is so wrong and abusive on so many levels ….there are no morals or scruples and it’s depraved
        The power and control to take the hinges of doors …. what the hell !?
        This is total disrespect, entitlement and the biggest violation of privacy!
        In our home, we knock and wait to be invited in (unless the door is already open )
        We have always respected each other’s privacy and a kids bedroom should be their private sanctuary
        Same goes with our private possessions and mail
        If we wanted to borrow or loan …. we asked first
        We have always had a “no snooping” policy as well
        I seriously shake my head in disbelief sometimes and this just breaks my heart
        I’m so sorry you both had to endure this by your parents, yet glad you can both discuss it and hopefully move forward
        Hugs to you my lovelies
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. FYC says:

          Dear Bubbles, I agree with you and what a wonderful parent you must be. You are a lovely person.😇

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest FYC,
            You are too kind FYC, I’m most humbled … .. thank you so much precious one ☺️
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. FYC says:

            You are the sweetest, Bubbles😘

      3. K says:


        your dad got proximate fuel, as well.

      4. Lorelei says:

        I’m sorry MB. I really am. It’s deplorable behavior.

        1. MB says:

          Thank you Claire. No need for you to be sorry. Although it was awkward, I really didn’t realize it was abuse or that it should not have been happening. Not knowing it was abuse didn’t keep it from affecting me I suppose.

      5. ava101 says:

        I have 1 ex-boyfriend who thought things like that about his mother was normal … he wasn’t a narc, he had developed other problems. :/

        And another ex whose mother had no boundaries whatsoever … pushed her own daughter to use nude pictures of herself (the daughter) for art class in school, and went alone with my ex naked into the sauna, and they all went together to the nude beach … so, she didn’t respect our privacy at all and I had some very shameful moments … I was like 25 at that time.

        I had talked about my father earlier, but nothing that strange or bad at all.

        1. MB says:

          Ava101, awkward for sure! 😳

      6. Caroline R says:

        The things you describe sound like coercive control to me. It’s subtle, and undermines your ability to object. You would be blamed for making a big deal, being too sensitive, blah blah blah. Usual N-invalidations of our legitimate concerns.

        This is about asserting control, and I’m glad that you’ve been able to share it with us so we can tell you that it’s not right.
        It’s boundary trampling, and disrespectful.

        (Did you hear Christine Louis de Canonville speaking during the last WNAAD Survivors’ Empowerment Telesummit? She discussed coercive control, and gaslighting).

        It sounds like ‘gateway’ behaviour to me, that is, if the N-parent decides to, they can easily escalate it further to indecent assault, and incest.
        Sexual assault is about power, and about fuel acquisition.

        Ugh, I feel sick…….

        My uncle was dying and did pass away this month. I was unfortunate to have the N-sister lifeform come into his room while I was visiting. I ignored her and kept my head down (writing/reading while breathing slowly, and keeping a bored expression on my face for good measure); she left after five minutes. No fuel.

        The point of me mentioning it is that I saw with fresh eyes the great mental gymnastics that we empaths have to perform to make the N-BS make sense and to be able to live alongside it. To make a relationship with the disordered individual work, especially with a parent.

        We are hardwired for love.
        We need it, and vainly attempt to have our legitimate needs met.
        There’s nowhere else for us to go.
        Ultimately, we have to dissociate from our feelings, and disconnect our intuition.

        There’s no other way.

        We are in survival mode.

        I’ve been making great progress in examining the nature of attachment trauma, and trauma bonding, and how that played out in my life.
        I feel relieved of such an enormous burden, and so much more free, and detached.
        There’s been a great amount of inner work done, and an irrevocable shift in my psyche.

        I’ve noticed some of your comments on various threads, and that you have been processing lots of aspects of your life that were overwhelming before.

        I want to tell you how proud of you I am!

        What a woman of courage you are!

        It’s a deeply painful process, and can’t be hurried.

        I’m delighted for you to have any improvement in your feelings of inner strength.
        These are hard-won gains, and great achievements for you!

        1. MB says:

          Thank you for the kind words and validation Caroline R. It is easy to discount ones experiences in the face of so many horrific examples of abuse that is seen in this place. I find myself belittling mine. Who am I to be damaged? Many have suffered far worse. I remind myself that it was the child that suffered abandonment at a critical point and that was a big deal. I’m sure that I had it in me to develop NPD. For some reason, I took the fork in the road and was spared that fate.

          1. Caroline R says:

            You’re most welcome!
            I’m so proud of you, and want everything to go well for you.

            I just had a thought while typing this, that for so long you were internalizing the unspoken message that your thoughts, your opinions, and your preferences were of no value, as your N-dad had everything revolve around him.

            This message becomes deeply imprinted in our psyche, and it forms the lens through which we view ourselves and the world.

            It would be impossible for you to not come away from your family with an unconscious attitude that your narrative, your life story was uninteresting.
            That you as a person, are uninteresting.

            This is the legacy of the N-parent.

            I’m reading again Karyl McBride’s ‘Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers”. I’m studying childhood developmental psychology as well.
            I’ve been processing aspects of my life, and realised that a child needs a parent who can ‘see’ them for who they are, and can accurately reflect back to the child who they are, as loved and valuable.

            A N-parent is incapable of doing that.

            They don’t know who THEY are, and they see you as an extension of themselves, and as a commodified product for their own consumption.

            With my N-Mother and N-sister, there was no positive female culture in my family.
            I thrived once I was among like-minded individuals who created a supportive female culture; they were magnet super empaths in hindsight, and I was safe from competition, jealous rages, silent treatments, and general punishment and emotional torture.

            There was no walking on eggshells.

            Abdul Saad describes ‘Super Empaths’ as “Authentic Altruists” (Vital Mind Psychology YouTube videos…he’s an Egyptian Australian). He has some good insights for empath well-being.

            I’ve been thinking about how profound an impact this had on me, in terms of personal growth and professional development.

            Here were some healthy, kind, high achieving, intelligent, empathetic women, who accepted and appreciated me.
            Their regard for me was consistent.
            I didn’t have to watch my back.
            I wasn’t smothered.
            I was respected for my heart and mind.

            I had some healthy mirroring happening, and I thrived.

            From what you’ve described MB, it seems that you didn’t have healthy parental mirroring either. The non-N parent is too busy surviving the abusive relationship to be there for the children. The children are emotionally abandoned in the family.
            No one has their needs met, except the N-parent.

            Owning that you are valuable, that your thoughts matter, that your opinions matter, will feel strange for a while. Like wearing a new woolen suit jacket. After a while it warms up and softens, and feels perfectly natural.
            And you look gorgeous it it.
            It’s you.

            Your experience matters.
            Your insights are important, and your feelings are all valid.
            The things that you witnessed, experienced, and had to block out are all important.

            More than that, we want to hear what you think.
            We want to hear what you want to share with us.
            Your words are important, and you are a precious person.

          2. MB says:

            Caroline R, thank you so much. The pervasive feeling taken from my childhood is that of being a burden. I was ashamed I had needs like food, clothing, shoes. As I got older the need for deodorant, sanitary products, and other items were even more shameful. I didn’t feel worthy of the air I breathed much less of anything extra like love or attention.

            I remember feeling so special at school. I had some lovely teachers my second year of school. They would take me for weekends because they were young and had no children of their own. One said, when I have a little girl, I want her to be just like you. I remember how strange, but good it felt to be “seen”. To be a person, not just a mouth to feed. To be given rainbow sherbet and ride on her husband’s shoulders as we took a walk after dinner. I suppose they were just newlyweds playing house, but I still remember my six year old hands grasping his curly red hair, holding on, laughing, feeling special, feeling loved. I wonder if they ever think of me?

          3. WiserNow says:

            Caroline R,

            Thank you for your comments on this thread. I can relate with what you say and I feel that I’ve experienced a lot of the same things as you in growing up in with an N-mother. Your words and understanding give me a sense of peace and they resonate with me.

            The mental gymnastics, the disassociation from our own feelings, the deeply ingrained feelings of being unworthy or uninteresting, and the slow and gradual and constant self-work required to unravel all of that to feel a sense of self-worth and genuine self-validation. I can relate to all of it.

            I am happy for you that you had the empathetic women in your life to give you healthy mirroring, acceptance and appreciation. Your words are doing all of that here on the blog, so you are passing on the same things. Thank your for that 🙂

          4. WiserNow says:

            PS. Sorry for the spelling/grammar mistakes. WordPress is jumpy and slow sometimes and I really need to check before pressing ‘send’.
            *growing up with an N-mother
            *Thank you for that 🙂

        2. Lou says:

          Caroline R, just want to say that I really liked and totally agree with what you wrote about the great mental gymnastics empaths have to perform when they are entangled with a N. It’s not normal yet, for many empaths, especially the ones who were raised by narcs, it is. It becomes a mental pattern empaths engage in which should be regarded as both a red flag and a bad habit empaths should get rid of.

          1. FYC says:

            Lou, Indeed. If it feels like “home” run!

          2. WiserNow says:

            Lou and FYC,

            I know what you mean… ideally, we should aim for getting out and staying out. That is the main goal.

            Sometimes though, it is inevitable and unavoidable that we find ourselves in situations with narcissists or even narcissistic people and we need to find a way to co-exist with them that serves our own purposes. We can run, but we might then find ourselves running right into another situation with another narc and what then? Do we keep on running forever? Maybe, but at some point, we also need to accept that they are everywhere and unavoidable.

            Lately, I have started seeing both the good and the bad in things. It is ‘bad’ that growing up with an N-parent has made us have these mental patterns that we engage in. It’s actually really terrible and has affected our lives in a profound way.

            On the ‘good’ side, we have survived because of these mental patterns. We have learned some very valuable lessons about ourselves and human nature. We are armed with knowledge and understanding. We know that if we work on ourselves and know ourselves, we will never be fooled again.

            I think there is something valuable in every experience and it allows us to grow and understand better. If we accept this understanding, narcissists no longer have power over us. They can’t control us if we don’t allow them to. The fear and emotional turmoil they create in us slowly becomes more like a memory. It can no longer cause the same emotional reaction and ‘loss of self’.

            I’m not saying that we should stay in relationships with them or accept their abuse. Not at all and I would never ever suggest that.

            I’m just saying that being able to face the fear and the anger and accept it when necessary (perhaps in only small doses), and learn how to become immune while consciously holding on to our own sense of self, may be a more realistic and ultimately more resilient approach.

          3. Caroline R says:

            Thank you for your kind words, and interesting insights.

            Did you listen to Sandra L Brown at the last WNAAD Survivors’ Empowerment Telesummit?
            She made some great points along similar lines to yours.

            She spoke about how we targets who are supertraited for ‘Agreeableness’ and ‘Conscientiousness’ need to not only be aware of the Red Flags for descent into a toxic relationship, but also that we need self-awareness, and this from the perspective of recognising our self-talk and our drivers of behaviour.

            We need to lead with our ‘Conscientiousness’ traits (CT) before we know whether a person is trustworthy in any given situation.

            We are hardwired for our ‘Agreeableness’ traits (AT) (‘Big Five Factor Markers’ Personality Test), and find ourselves leading with these traits instead, which, as HG points out, is not in our best interests. It’s our ET (AT) vs our LT (CT).

            She encouraged us to think “what does it look like for me when I’m acting according to my AT? (ET).
            What sorts of things do I say? What is my train of thought? What is my internal voice saying? What’s my intuition telling me? Am I calm or going around in exhausting circles?” So that I can recognise it, and halt acting on it.
            Similarly, “what does my CT (LT) driven behaviour look like, and what does it sound like in my head? What does it sound like coming out of my mouth?”

            “What are my triggers for acting in certain ways in relationships?”

            She says that we’re very good at short circuiting our good intentions, and will reflexively fall into certain ways of behaving given the circumstances because of our hardwiring.
            E.g, our ET wants to give him one more chance….
            Our LT says “no! He doesn’t deserve it!”
            We need to be aware of our inherent vulnerability.

            I love it when HG takes us through practical scenarios like this in a step by step manner, to help with recognition, identification, and application/assimilation of the information.
            Like in his GOSO pt 1 video, and the ‘3 letter trap’.
            That’s what our ET sounds like coming out of our mouths.

            I think about these things everyday now.

          4. FYC says:

            WN, Like you I have one VMRN parent. When I see those behaviors in others, I avoid them. I did not mean literally run. I was implying just because something feels familiar does not always mean it is good or one should remain.

            Thanks to HG, I feel fully armed. I have dealt with Ns my entire life (unknowingly for most of that time). I do not have a problem with them in the general population and know how to manage interactions. As for any personal entanglements, even before HG, I applied “When you know, you go.” When someone breaches boundaries and lacks respect they have no place in my life.

            Thank you for your concern though, that was kind.

          5. WiserNow says:


            You’re very welcome. Our discussions (and other readers’ comments too) have a thought-provoking effect on me, so yes, my responses are partly due to kindness, but they are also due to contemplating reactions, mindfulness and emotional resilience. My intention is not to be contradictory or accusing, but to see things in a slightly different way.

            You say, ““When you know, you go.” When someone breaches boundaries and lacks respect they have no place in my life.” I understand that. It’s a necessary course of action to take when someone is disrespecting you or lying to you or manipulating you or causing you emotional distress. I do the same thing in those circumstances and I resent anyone who treats me in that way.

            Now that it’s been a few years since I’ve been learning about the psychology behind narcissism though, as you have also, with regard to early child development, coping strategies, self-worth and self-esteem, attachment disorders etc, my immediate reaction of anger and resentment has been tempered a little. I still protect myself against narcs, however, logic and reason has made me see that:
            1. sometimes, they do have a place in my life, whether I want them to or not, and at those times, I need to know how to deal with them; and
            2. they are subject to the way their ’emotional development’ caused them to be. They are acting out their coping strategies just like we all are. So, this knowledge and understanding helps me to see and contemplate them with more patience, even if I ‘know’ and fully understand that I need to GOSO

            Take for example, a narc who you work with, or who is one of your child’s teachers, or who owns the coffee shop that you always stop at for a coffee, or who is the salesperson at the only store in your area where you need to buy a certain item on a regular basis. In those instances, those people ‘do’ have a place in your life and you may be obliged to have contact with them.

            You can lessen the extent of your involvement, but to protect yourself, you also need to develop the mindset where you get what you need while still retaining a level of emotional detachment. What I’m saying is that immunity in those instances will get you further (with more self-satisfaction) than pride, resentment and anger even in the situations where those people attempt to manipulate you or get your fuel.

            In close relationships, yes, GOSO for sure. But for life in general, a sense of immunity and resilience is a more beneficial way to relate, I believe. I hope that makes sense and you can see what I’m getting at.

          6. cb says:

            Absolutely, WiserNow, since narcs are “everywhere”, every 6th individual or so, we can’t avoid meeting a few, and learn how to deal. One of the friends of my kids has a narc mother. A boss at work, whom I almost never need to speak with, is a narc. When I call some tech support and just feel that odd feeling that this time I’m speaking with a narc, I can’t put down the phone.

            I try to develop a different bodylanguage, no-sudden-moves, slower, more calm posture and walk. Just overall looking cooler. Not easy for me, but definitely something I need to do.

            Not looking nervous is good when walking past a predator. I learnt this the hard way.

          7. WiserNow says:

            Yes, I know what you mean. Sometimes you do learn the hard way and you can see how your past ‘mistakes’ ended up having certain results.

            Although I say ‘mistakes’, I don’t really think they are mistakes or errors of judgement etc. They are your ‘natural’ or spontaneous behaviours or reactions. However, these natural behaviours or reactions are like flashing lights to a predator.

            So, to protect yourself, you need to get a better grasp of how your own natural behaviours are being interpreted by others. Like you say, this knowledge leads to you developing different behaviours, different body language and more consciously self-protective reactions.

            If you contemplate your own behaviours deeply, you can start to see how and why your own ‘natural’ behaviours developed when you were a child and adolescent. They were shaped that way due to the influence your earliest caregivers and your environment had on you. Your brain wiring was shaped by the way you ‘related’ to your caregivers and environment.

            If you fast forward to the present day, that same brain wiring is in place and still reacting (to some extent) in the same way to the present environment and to the people around you.

            Being conscious of your instinctive behaviours and being aware enough to cognitively learn how to make small progressive changes will start to change your natural reactions over time. This is necessary in order to protect yourself. Of course, ‘no contact’ and adopting GOSO will allow your emotional thinking to decrease enough to give you time and space to do this.

            Thanks for your comment cb. Your make some great points about changing instinctive behaviours.

          8. FYC says:

            Hello WN, Thanks for the detailed response. I did not take your comment as challenging or contradictory, I took it as thoughtful and caring. I believe I understand what you are saying, that GOSO applies more to close relationships versus coworkers and others in your life. I would agree, but I would add a few caveats. I do agree that one can manage the Ns in their extended life effectively (I certainly did so professionally and otherwise with success, for which I credit my familial Ns for their, err, ‘training’ in this area, as well as some natural skills and behavioral insights), however, one must be prepared. In general, if Ns can be avoided without a personal cost (to advance your career or get your favorite coffee) then life is more peaceful. On the other hand, if you can handle their negative energy (not let it penetrate) and don’t mind managing all that comes with an N, you can do so, but it can be very high maintenance.

            I too am well read on a breadth of human behavioral psychology (including attachment theory). My formal education and profession also draws, in part, on the theories and practices of human behavior, so I am well experienced. I definitely see the bigger picture and understand both sides. I can honestly say I hold no resentment for any N (or anyone else) I have encountered and remain grateful for the good parts. I do feel sorry for Ns, as they have suffered ongoing for their early abuse and remain defended for life. I wish their defense could be dropped so that a real connection were possible, but I accept it cannot. There have been many times in the past when I felt frustrated with Ns, but thanks to HG’s CGE (cease giving energy) insight, I don’t even bother with frustration. The insight and clarity HG delivers is absolutely phenomenal and very freeing. I am in a far better place than ever before and I am truly grateful.

          9. WiserNow says:

            I know what you mean about insight and clarity, provided here by HG, and also gained from other sources of knowledge, research and wider reading and contemplation. This kind of clarity and insight is truly life-changing and helps in many different ways.

            Unlike you, my formal education is not in psychology or social behaviour. It is in a different area of study which in itself has fairly ‘narcissistic’ underlying objectives on the whole. I think the narcissistic underpinnings of my formal studies and working life has meant that it’s been even more ‘challenging’ to recognise narcissists for what they are. I believe many people in my field of work believe narcissistic intentions are perfectly normal and even something to be proud of. I can see the flawed theoretical thinking of this ‘narcissistic’ mindset, however, the industry as a whole is also necessary in society and is very beneficial when done with integrity.

            Anyway, I used to find that my job involved working with many narcissists on a daily basis. Before being aware of narcissism, this was something that caused me almost constant emotional turmoil and distress. I didn’t have the insight and understanding to know how to be emotionally detached or to protect myself with self-care etc. Also, having grown up with narcissism in the family, there were aspects of these work colleagues that also felt fairly ‘normal’ to me, or at least familiar.

            Now that I know about narcissism and have clarity and insight, it is SO much easier. Unbelievably so. Still, I can’t simply turn around and walk away because I need to be in the presence of narcissists sometimes and they are not always avoidable. So, in this respect, it helps to have both insight AND immunity and keep practicing those two things all the time.

            Thankfully, I now work with people who are not narcissists and I am very, very grateful for that. It makes a huge difference.

            As always, thank you for your comment and insights FYC. The more we know and communicate, the more knowledge and understanding we all will have.

          10. FYC says:

            Thank you, WN. I am so happy for you that you are no longer surrounded by Ns in your work. That makes everything easier! Your quote, “I can see the flawed theoretical thinking of this ‘narcissistic’ mindset, however, the industry as a whole is also necessary in society and is very beneficial when done with integrity,” can apply to any line of work and I agree wholeheartedly. Any job can be accomplished with integrity, and for me, standing with integrity was ultimately respected.

            When you said your field of work is fairly narcissistic, I immediately thought of entertainment, then medicine, then business in general, so maybe Ns are everywhere, lol (more than most estimate). It is hard to say. Now that my antenna is up (due to understanding the construct better), I might ‘see’ more Ns than actually exist, because narcissistic behavior does not make one a narcissist. I do make note of the flags as they appear and adjust accordingly. I am still learning and hope to become proficient at the finer distinctions of typing Ns. If I can learn to accurately type Ns, I will be better armed to effectively either opt out or deal with them when necessary.

          11. WiserNow says:

            FYC, thank you for your reply.

            When I wrote the sentence you have quoted in your comment, I could also see that any industry could be described that way, so I understand your point. By the way, I don’t really want to go into detail about the particular industry because I’d prefer to remain anonymous here about those things.

            I should have made it clearer that when studying my industry through formal education, the studies did not include psychology or social behaviour in a way that would make it necessary to focus on the human psyche, or on various personalities or on personality disorders etc. So, unfortunately, that area of knowledge (i.e. human psychology) is lacking in my industry in general, I believe.

            The knowledge I gained about narcissism that eventually lead me here to HG’s blog was all done from my own personal initiative and is quite far removed from my day to day work. It’s a shame because many practitioners in my field would actually benefit quite a lot (personally and professionally) from more knowledge about human behaviours.

            I agree with you that when you know the behaviours and understand the construct, it gives you so much more clarity in being able to identify Ns. It is also extremely valuable in terms of being able to control your own thinking and responses to them too. The difference that knowledge and understanding make in the whole dynamic cannot be overestimated.

            Like you, I’m still learning to spot Ns too and I keep reading and learning to fine-tune my knowledge. I’ve noticed that sometimes I read things that don’t seem to be of much value, but then, I will find myself in a certain situation with someone with strong N behaviour and the knowledge I’ve gained kicks in and I know what to do and how to react.

            That knowledge-based response gives me such a good feeling. It’s like wearing armor. It feels like my emotional thinking and insecurities are gone and the N’s efforts simply won’t work. Like you said in one of your comments that I read today, on the inside, at those times, I am saying to myself, “FTSSH, baby!” lol

            It feels great when you can smile and seize the power 🙂

          12. FYC says:

            WN, I agree with everything you said, except you did nothing wrong and were perfectly clear. I only explained further because I thought I had not been quite clear. And as for anonymity, I am all for it. I was not fishing for more info, I was just sharing my thought process and realized that Ns are in many industries (and many in positions of leadership so more people encounter the effects). I also like your personal spin–“FTSSH baby!”–it made me smile and I am sure I will use that too.

    3. Desirée says:

      Klo, I am sorry, not to be disrespectful but I am crying from laughter. Your Username literally means “loo” in german and here you are, complaining passionately about how he wouldn’t let you crap in peace and it pissed the hell out of you. I am so sorry but that one completely caught me by suprise, I’m still crying it’s fucking hilarious.

  3. Christopher Jackson says:

    I remember this one…pissed my narc dad off and I went to my room afterwards and I closed the door too hard for him and he comes up the stairs …and opens the door and goes..” slam another fucking door around here and see if I dont take the bitch off the hinges…and leave the damn door open you dont have no damn privacy around here not long as you live up in here…as a matter a fact dont ever close it again!” Then months later I was changing clothes with the door half way shut and he goes ” why are you changing with the door half way open and behind the door …..close the damn door.”

    1. MB says:

      Doors can be taken off the hinges. I can attest! It didn’t happen to me, but it did to my older sister.

    2. K says:

      Christopher Jackson
      That was a great example of a Volte Face, Thanks for the gas lighting dad!!!

    3. Caroline R says:

      What a bully your N-dad was!
      You deserved to be treated with respect!
      His behaviour was completely inappropriate.

  4. E. B. says:


    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      E.B. Indeed. I felt chills looking at that photo and reading the caption.

  5. cb says:

    Creepy leech matrinarc. This post is way too close to home.

    “My mother always visited you, me and your dad. She was in our apartment everyday when your were a kid. We had absolutely no problems with that!!!. I should visit you guys several times a week! Why on Earth do you have issues with this???
    You are odd!”

    (delivered with a screaming voice)

    1. K says:

      Run, run away as fast as you can. That’s not normal!

      1. cb says:

        K thanks ♡
        I started No Contact (phone/social media block) in 2015 but she will jump at the smallest movement, if she sees i’ve changed a word/pic on LinkedIn, the phone blocker immediately registers a few calls. She’s the aggressive kind who calls my employers etc. Very energy draining person. Ironically hoovered just after i sent the comment you’re responding to. She brought my aunt with her to block our door. She is easily triggered. Wish there was a cure for her.

        1. K says:

          My pleasure cb
          I wish there was a cure, too! She sounds very aggressive. Blocking the door is very direct and very controlling and she got your aunt to participate, as well. She sounds like a lesser.

          The hoover trigger and hoover execution criteria have been met and you received a malign parental hoover. Do your best to ignore her aggressive behaviour. Fight! Don’t let her get your fuel.

        2. Caroline R says:


          Bringing your aunt along is a classic triangulation move.
          It’s bullying behaviour.
          My N-Mother loved employing that tactic.

          She’d tag-team triangulate me with my victim-N mid-ranger sister. It was like living in a dog fighting pit, trying to avoid getting bitten and mauled, unable to escape.

          They fed off each other’s drama.

          Other times she’d make her obnoxious pronouncements about what I was doing wrong, and finish with the statement: “and your father thinks so, too”

          No possibility of respectful discussion.

    2. Caroline R says:

      My N-Mother was a screaming Lesser too.

      I feel your pain.

      Mine would make everything about her. They can be soooo obnoxious!
      You can never live your own life with a Lesser N-Mother.

      Going through some paperwork recently I found my journal. I’d written in 2003 that I’d said to her quietly and calmly “you’re an angry person”.
      She bared her teeth in my face, and screeched “I deny that out of hand!!! I am NOT an angry person!!!”.

      So, it didn’t go well…

      I couldn’t discuss anything with her unless it agreed with her. It was a very stilted relationship.

      She became like an attack dog, or like a frill-neck lizard, taking on the menacing stance, clenching her hands, baring her teeth in my face….only ever behind closed doors though.

      How did you survive those attacks on yourself?

      I became an expert at standing very still, breathing quietly, and keeping a fixed, serious expression on my face so I’d be standing my ground, but wouldn’t inflame the situation. I’d say nothing. Sometimes I’d look her in the eye. Most times I wouldn’t look at her. I’d survive.

      When I was little I ran and hid, of course. I was always afraid of her. She power-tripped on our fear.

      1. cb says:

        Puzzles me what she is. Very angry in private but the charitable charming martyr in public, towards the neighbours etc etc.

        Beautiful clothes, nothing expensive, golden hair, blue eyes shining as a child at ppl. What a mask.
        So i always suspected she is a Mid-range.

        Her hoovering is very lazy-clever in that she lets my nice nervous kind aunty do all the work, even sending me the – registered – letters (which i never pick up from post office, I never react) She only hoovers irl when it’s comfy warm weather. (I recognise this from HGs words about conserving energy) Etc. Maybe this is why I always enjoyed blizzards and heavy rain. My body felt at peace. Abusers are too comfy for rain.

        Cooks absolutely excellent food e g. But once you let her in she will leech on and can t get rid of her stalking, she just can t let go. She lacks that ability. And all these malign hoovers makes me think: lesser? Puzzling.

        I m arranging some fun for this evening though. I’ll read through your comment about your experience later in the day Caroline ♡

      2. cb says:

        Caroline So heartbreaking to read your story! ♡
        And very kind of you to ask.

        How I dealt?
        I became an overall very careful overthinking person. Was rather thin etc. Like my dad. And my aunt (her sister)

        The fact that she was outwards seen as charming, welldressed, charitable, intelligent, had me thinking: Midrange, I guess.

        But it just did not add up with her rage. Angry person, like your mom.
        So I really want to thank you ladies, K and Caroline, for suggesting Lesser in this thread.

        Strangers sometimes commented on her anger: It’s that staring and yelling towards some tertiary sources.

        And maybe nowadays she is alone.

        No idea.

        1. K says:

          I think you and Caroline R have lesser mothers. Behind closed doors they are brutal and sometimes in public they can be overtly angry and abusive. They have a low threshold of control over their fury.

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