Big Little Lies : The Results

Some of you will earn gold stars, others need extra tuition and for some of you it’s detention in the Tudor Dungeon.

Find out if you were right or hopelessly adrift when I reveal the answers next week.

249 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : The Results

  1. Lisa says:

    Hi HG, I haven’t been on here for ages so have not read any comments so apologies if I’m repeating any questions. I just read the Big Little Lies result. Really interesting, I thought Perry was a pyscopath? Interesting that you say in the Mid Range Camp and the same as the mother (Meryl) do you think the writer knows they are writing about these personality types ? Strangely I never felt any sympathy for the Celeste character I found her equally as sick as him and just kept wondering if this was real life would those 2 boys grow up to be narcs ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Lisa, Mary Louise is different from Perry, you may need to revisit that. The writer does not know they are writing about narcissists, but will have doubtless experienced some of the behaviours.

  2. FYC says:

    Dear Empaths K & MP,

    I can’t speak for others, but please know I am keenly aware of what took place on the Ed thread. I have a question for you, how many threads must become infected with this repetitive, no-win discourse?

    Are you aware that all people have cognitive biases and that these take precedence in interpersonal communication and relationships? Confirmation bias is one of these. This means we seek to find ways to be ‘right’ in our position. Affinity bias is another. This means we unconsciously tend to agree with or get along with those who are in accord with us. These strong, subconscious filters influence our interpretation of any event. You are highly unlikely to change another’s biases even in the best of circumstances–and these circumstances are far from optimal to say the least.

    Defensive communication will not change anything. There is no winning and damage has been done on both sides. So how about taking the high road and staying the course?

    Thanks in advance, for your consideration.

    1. K says:

      Wrong. MP isn’t an empath. The popcorn machine has been up and running since the Ed Thread and her behaviour on this thread has confirmed my suspicions.

      1. FYC says:

        K, I see the behavior you are speaking of, but if HG says she is an empath I’ll take him at his word. We do know that many empaths also have narcissistic traits, some more than others.

    2. MommyPino says:

      Hi FYC, I have already moved on. The last comment that I wrote on this thread regarding this issue was in the midnight of Aug. 5 agreeing with WokeAF that it’s best for us to stop responding. I have no plans to get involved again.

      1. FYC says:

        MP, You and others have made many comments that still are in reference to this ongoing communication. I am suggesting all interested parties cease all reference in the interest of moving forward, and stop giving this energy. To set an example, I am done.

      2. WokeAF says:

        MP as long as your feelings (raw from grief) are intact and you don’t feel the need to defend, explain, make peace (impossible), shed light, or convince, , and you feel ok

        Then I’m good .

        My kid has been to emerg 4 x in the last three days due to a cheek injury that became infected (inside his mouth). And then worsened .
        I’ve had ANOTHER few days off work but I’m enjoying it ( well I’m enjoying it now that he’s properly medicated and not screaming in agony )
        (Gotta love free healthcare btw)
        🇨🇦 💗

        ANYHOO are your geyser cadre- I’m not fully 💯 magnet, I have Saviour tendencies (DUH), and a big chunk of contagion – plus I think life circumstances affect our disposition. I’d say I’m majority a magnet. But due to the contagion, I don’t go out and socialize and get involved with a lot of people very often . So I’m sure that affects how I present .

        To whoever mentioned infecting thread after thread, I’m aware of this and won’t enable it.

        1. WokeAF says:


          I HOPE you don’t still feed bad and/or get baited into explaining etc

          But if you do- May I suggest you take it back to the ED THREAD and pick it up there .

          I still have a few I’d love to crack off 😆 but I haven’t. Heh. And if I do, best to keep the infection localized to the Ed Thread and not let it radiate throughout the forum.
          I’m good to drop it entirely – I think we’re on the same page 👍🏻

          1. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, I want to drop this entirely. I just responded to their comments which they made here in this thread.

            I’m glad that your son is doing better and not in agony anymore. I hope that he keeps healing fast.

    3. nunya biz says:

      There is an interesting comparison regarding geysers and carriers on the Geyser article.

      1. FYC says:

        Thank you, NB, I’ll check it out.

      2. MommyPino says:

        Not everything in the Geyser article applies to me NunyaBiz.

        1. nunya biz says:

          I was implying differences in approaches of schools mommypino, in an intent to be helpful. Maybe like how a person might say super e’s selfishly mother like Madeline as opposed to jane, except more generalized.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thanks for clarifying. But the parts on the Geyser article comparing geysers vs carriers in their approaches didn’t apply to me. Probably because I have strong Carrier traits as well. And I just wanted to make that clarification to avoid further misunderstanding of me.

      3. MommyPino says:

        NunyaBiz, you have said it yourself, we are a combination of schools and cadre. My most prominent cadre according to the 1200 word Q and A is the Geyser. I also have Carrier. If you are talking about the part comparing the Carrier vs the Geyser where the Carrier focuses on solving the problems while the Geyser melts in tears, let me tell you this. I went home to the Phils to take care of my mom with tuberculosis — that is taking care of a problem. I found her dead on her chair — I didn’t cry, I asked for help from the neighbors and relatives to help me take care of business like figuring out the funeral, wake, notifying relatives, paying for all of the costs etc. I never once cried in front of anybody. I did cry when I was alone for the first time that night but I think I was allowed to don’t you think? I went to Narcsite so I don’t have to keep thinking of her. I visited relatives so I don’t have to think of her. My husband and kids were not with me in that country. I only get to Skype with them for 30 minutes each day. And towards my third week of being away and grieving, I had been constantly bombarded with accusations here. I have repeatedly explained myself and apologized. That is taking care of the problem. None of my explanations resonated. I was grieving and I was afraid that I may have been inadvertently gaslighting people and thought that I posted a word salad in a forum that I regularly go to give support and get support. You think I’m not allowed to cry?

        1. nunya biz says:

          I am historically known to shame funeral attendees for crying, so yes. Why is there no empath article about continuous double-binds.

          1. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz, what double-binds are you referring to and how is that related here?

            I never cried at the funeral NB. I cried on my way home after being bombarded by untrue accusations while dealing with the situation with my mom. I honestly never shamed people for crying at the funerals of their lost loved one. I think that it’s much more shameful to have no empathy or decency during that time that someone might be going through something really difficult.

          2. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz, what do you mean by double binds? What does it mean? I looked it up and I got different search results. I’m not sure which of the double bind meanings you are referring to. Could you please clarify?

        2. nunya biz says:

          P.s. I am unsubscribing from comments. If you want to further accuse me of things I have absolutely never said to you, send it to outer space. I have, in fact, said probably 100 supportive comments to you, practically to the point of self deprecation for nothing but your own benefit, including now that you are a geyser empath. I am quite sensitive about death and telling me I am not allowing people to cry is just beyond. Other people do also have voices and feelings you know.

          1. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz I apologize. But I understand if you don’t ever want to communicate with me.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The matter is closed.

          3. MommyPino says:

            NunyaBiz , I hope that somewhere in outer space you will get this message. I’m truly sorry. I was feeling under siege and paranoid about passive aggressive remarks directed towards me. There’s no excuse. I recognize now that you were trying to help. Thank you for all the help that you have given me in the past. I’m truly sorry for being an ass to you.

          4. WokeAF says:


            sometimes one can interperate a comment incorrectly. It goes immediately to the brain as translated as a dig .
            It’s part of the vm*
            You may have suffered attacks your whole life (um , matrinarc) and your psyche is hyper aware for anything that might be a cut down of your sense of self.
            Part of you is in protection mode – and the comment goes through the wrong filter .
            It’s not your fault , but one way to rewire your brain is to wait a couple days before responding, and think about the comment as if it’s NOT a cut down.
            Get your brain in the habit of assuming the opposite intention. It’ll help balance things out
            Also remember you’re not in emotional danger any more – you’re a fully formed being and free to be who you are – and don’t need to justify yourself.
            I hope you read this reply as it’s intended – from a compassionate point of view – I’m not saying you ARE or ARENT anything – I’m just making an observation from my own experiences with ppl who’ve been under attack in childhood and developed similar protective , and go-to neuropathways

          5. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF. I understand what you are saying and I am not offended by it one bit. I actually appreciate that you try to understand me. You have extended so much kindness to me and I just really want to thank you for it. You are an amazing person, kind, strong and smart and I am thankful for everything that you did for me here. ❤️

          6. nunya biz says:

            Mp, I don’t think that I have expressed clearly enough how sorry I am for your loss. I have reacted to some things, and I care for k , but your grief is paramount, and you should cry all you want. I would not handle things so well, that’s the truth.
            I believe what HG says on the matter. I still have my feelings and empaths can be wrong. Nobody has to fix it or change it or control it, I do think patience helps. I don’t think anybody is better.

  3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Spleen Venting: Regarding the Writing and Plots for Movies, TV series, Novels, etc, that LC discusses so well: Although the writers will of course utilize artistic license, created conflicts, psychological and moral dilemmas, unusual character development, and final conflict resolutions, etc. it does not follow that the writing always does this well, and for all characters and all story lines and all plots, etc. Writers are not an exception to any rule and safe from being judged, and therefore they will also be judged for their works and its quality. We are reasonably intelligent and we have the right to say regarding the writing in a production, that a certain character was not developed logically, or in a believable fashion, or that a plot was not entirely satisfactory or a certain conclusion left much to be desired. Or, the conflict created a false choice. After many complaints of the often lack of quality in the arts, `Holywood` did attempt somewhat to encourage and reward certain products by labeling them as good or bad, with an honor and dishonor system: like the oscars and the Emmys, and even the razzies, etc. but even Holywood is often biased when we observe what movies are awarded, and which ones are not. So just because a profession will understandably apply the tools of their trade, it does not always follow that they do so in a stellar way in every production. Many shows fail. And many people still complain about the low quality of the writing in movies, etc. these days. We should feel free to say, for example, that a plot line was stupid, or that character development was unrealistic, etc. Or, that ending was too happily ever and spoiled the movie. etc. Or, a production was excellent. And, was well done, etc. Or, the writers of that scenario in particular should be fired. And these people are fired, at times. Every production is not state-of-the art. Some are good and some are not good. Writers are not an exception and therefore they will be judged. Or ratings plummet and so they are fired essentially by the viewers. We do the best we can with what is presented to us. We are still free to call a diamond a diamond and dross as dross, when we come across it in any profession, including writing and film. The Struggle is Real. With that said, I enjoyed tremendously Big Little Lies and HG Tudor`s Assessment Event.

  4. LC says:


    Ok, so you want evidence for a mistaken analysis of yours, and for my being right that you’re entertaining a problematic, if not downright aggressive debating strategy here, and you want evidence for MP explaining.

    – OK. I’m trying my best hoping you really are interested. Bc slowly I am wondering if I shouldn’t just leave it be.

    I’ll just take one single example from this thread we’re in right now. This thread is full of comments in which MP explains. Take any of them, they all work for me. I’m saying this not because I’m on her side or anything. I see myself as an impartial observer who opened your Ed thread late – and who was flabberghasted to see what a mess the three of you had created for yourselves. I think I can claim the role of impartiality because before all this happened I didn’t interact with any of you three.

    Now take any of MPs comments in this “results” thread. They are all good explanations in my book. Now for what I’m writing next it doesn’t matter whether YOU think they’re good explanations or bad ones.

    Please accept that I think the explanations are good (which I do). Now let’s also assume you think they’re bad and insufficient (which I think is the case).

    Your reaction is not : MP, I can’t accept that explanation because xyz.

    Your reaction is :

    Still playing the victim card, I see.”

    This is a statement, no “fact”, it is again an accusation based on questionable narc analysis which is itself not backed by “evidence” or explanation, and it is in no way moving forward or accommodating. It does not help to resolve anything.

    This comment is empty of content, serves to focus on MPs faults yet again, and again you are directing your energy at others in this thread when I was actually trying to make you examine your own conflict strategy, your very own contribution to why the thread went belly up. I am not saying that MP and WokeAF are blameless. They have owned their mistakes though, whereas you haven’t and stubbornly refuse to do so.

    Criticised by me you make it about THEM , again, when it’s actually YOU who is being criticised.

    We know this strategy from HGs articles on word salads and how they are created.

    But there is something strange also: the way you word your responses – the ultra short comments, numbers and even some phrasing that is reminiscent of the way HG sends off narcs on this blog.

    You are not dealing with narcs and you do not need to send them off.

    And no, I’m not saying you’re the narc. I’m saying that you’re using beat the narc methods and they are NOT healthy unless you’re dealing with a narc. I think what happens here is an effect of overapplication of “narcology” to each and everybody in your reach whether they are deserving or not. I’m not impressed with the “spineless” comments, they serve absolutely no constructive purpose whatsoever, whether the recipients are worthy or not.

    Beat the narc methods are absolutely not healthy especially when faced with insecure/overwhelmed people who lose their cool easily but still want to engage with you in a constructive way.

    So : I’m hoping to raise your own self awareness and am not concerned here with MPs or WokeAFs.

    I don’t know if it is hard or impossible for you to see that you too have messed up big style.

    I think you can be forgiven for your style if you really thought you were dealing with narcissists.

    You weren’t though. You were having a debate about ethics and character psychology with people who didn’t share your view.

    Can you understand my criticism now? If not please stay with this example I picked or we will have trouble getting anywhere. I’d be happy to move to a different one of your choosing once we’ve looked at this one though.

    I’m also ok with not moving forward further if you don’t want to. The Ed thread is a demonstration of how uncomfortable it is to be criticised. The choice is yours if you want to engage with my criticism. I know my criticism is making you uncomfortable but I will not continue against your own wish.

  5. WokeAF says:

    Was anyone else saying
    “Pipes up”
    “Butt hurt”
    Or, my personal fave,

    before I blew in like a hurricane (my nickname actually)

    If not, I both apologize and also am honoured. 😆

  6. Abw Flying says:

    I want to earn gold star so badly that I may watch the whole two seasons over the weekend. Actually , few episodes should do . I will watch the rest of it for pleasure cos apparently it’s really good.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      HG approves.

    2. LC says:

      I thought it was terrific! But if you want a gold star for Madeline don’t leave it at a few episodes 🙂

      1. WokeAF says:

        Hey! I got Mmm the first episode!

        It’s ED that caused the most confusion, remember?! 😆

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Confusion would be putting it mildly.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Actually confusion would be putting it sarcastically at least that’s how I intended it 😉

        2. LC says:


          Here’s advice to you for which you didn’t ask, so my apologies in advance that I give some anyway. If you are trying to resolve a conflict NEVER use sarcasm. Sarcasm in most cases is an aggressive rhetorical defence. If used in comedies for example or in settings where there is no conflict, sarcasm is totally okay and highly entertaining. You cannot put out the flames with sarcasm ever though if emotions are raw.

          I saw in your Ed thread that you were trying to lighten the mood with humour, it was misunderstood and things went from bad to worse.

          I can’t remember if it was sarcasm you used but remember this is an online forum, we don’t hear your voice, don’t see your face. humour works with double meanings and unless you are totally sure of what’s going on don’t use any but stay as calm as you possibly can.

          1. WokeAF says:

            I literally will have nothing to say if I can’t use humour 😩

            Sighhhh I’ll try to moderate it .
            Sheesh 😉

          2. WokeAF says:


            “Ed thread” 😂

            Rich time someone mentions the ED thread it cracks me up now
            MP saying she thought maybe she replaced Ed
            Every time someone mentions the thread not/being about Ed , it made me laugh- still does

          3. WokeAF says:

            You’re totally right that you guys don’t know me although you will get to
            I’m a little bit famous on my island for my humour, granted the delivery must help
            I just find everything so awfully wonderfully bittersweet- strangely delightfully funny
            And I entertain myself to no end- I have no idea what my character is going to come up with next
            I also like to use humour ironically and current slang because it entertains me

            Anyway I’ll put a little laughter face after something up I’m not sure it’s going to be picked up on at least

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Sorry to put the nerdy point on this, but WokeAF was using irony, not sarcasm. In my opinion, sarcasm is not used in 90% of the occasions Americans use the word. And I love humor so I wanna see it often, WokeAF! But LC is right, sometimes the intention is lost for lack of intonation here so we have to be careful. Having said that, my comment probably sounded pretentious while I never intended that at all so I apologize in advance. I want to encourage the use of humor here that’s all. Now, I know someone who does have a very sharp, ironic sense of humor and uses it frequently in the blog …

          5. WokeAF says:

            YAY! It’s a big part of my character but I will always put little happy faces after I crack one off off if I think ppl might not get it

            Eg – 😆

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            WokeAF EXACTLY. That’s why I disagree with HG about emojis being moronic. They add that intonation that written communications most times lackz For example, if I said “you crazy bitch” vs. “you crazy bitch 😜😘”. Not the same, not the same. ***I’m not calling you names, it’s a linguistic example. I personally don’t use bitch unless I’m really mad and I just type and delete but you already knew that.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Only if the recipient understands the emoji. They’re moronic.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            “They are moronic 😎” there goes a meta joke for you.

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            *most times lack, not “lackz,” I was aiming for a period, guess I need my glasses…

          10. LC says:


            I’m totally with you. I just want to be the conflict doctor in this thread. I love humour too and for this reason alone don’t intend to be the humour police on the blog for long. I don’t care if its irony or sarcasm though, both are often toxic agents in conflicts – but everywhere else its all good….

          11. Whitney says:

            That’s mean HG 😭

          12. Caroline R says:

            Well said.

            I appreciate all of your comments on this thread, and your perceptions of the characters in BLL have been very interesting.

            I misunderstood the dynamic between MMM, Nathan, Ed and everyone else.
            I thought that MMM was a mid-range N.
            From the opening scene in season 1, MMM seems highly strung and running on empty, and in a passionless marriage with Ed. She is aggressive and there is no peace evident in her heart and mind. She seems restless and edgy.
            She comes across as being at war with the world.

            Is she bored with her life? The “I want more!” cries of frustration in the car with Celeste seem to support this.
            Does she need a holiday?
            Is it small-community claustrophobia?
            Her ex-husband is a constant source of irritation to her.
            In the final episodes we get a sense of her heartache, and she seems to show less of the mid-ranger’s feelings of loss of control, and more of a real emotional response.
            Nathan tells her early-on that he had to jump through hoops with her, and now he does the same thing with Bonnie.
            This must be N-projection on his part, but it served as a red herring in the early episodes.

            There is a difference between a SE with an outgoing personality, and one with an introverted personality. Perhaps this is another reason why I didn’t recognise her as a SE. MMM’s marriage to Ed made no sense to me. Her passion with the man she had an affair with did make sense, however.
            Empaths are creatures of passion, after all.

            It was only in the last three episodes of season 1 that MMM softened (post-affair) and I could feel a kinship with her.
            The friendships of the ‘Monterey Five’ made more sense.
            (The Renata character also softened at that time, and seemed to move from N-camp to E-camp. The Renata and Gordon marriage made no sense initially. She seemed like a Lesser-N, and would naturally want to be in control; marrying another controlling person makes no sense. As a fiery Narcissistic normal, her natural pairing would be a codependant or calm, submissive man).

            Prior to the last three episodes, I found MMM to be aggressive (almost obnoxious), controlling, wooden (with her husband), and draining.

            MMM’s relationship with her children didn’t quite ring true for me. That may have been to do with the script writing.

            The Jane character resonated with me more in terms of empathetic behaviour, especially with the way she was with Ziggy. She would have been running on empty in her situation, and her guardedness with everyone was well-written and well-acted.
            The post-assault flashbacks and nightmares, and upregulated startle response that she had resonated with me too. That was very well written. It made me cry.

            My assaults were at the hands of mid-rangers in romantic relationships, but they didn’t beat me up as happened with Celeste. I thought that the physical violence Celeste sustained was more of a Lesser-N trait.
            Thus I thought Perry must be an upper Lesser with mid-ranger overlap, as the facade is firmly in place in public. There were arguments for and against him sitting in either camp of N.

            Bonnie’s dancing at the party was realistic and showed her E-nature; she’s clearly an emotional woman in tune with her body, and has integration of heart and mind, despite her areas of past brokenness. Her natural mojo was unmistakable to everyone, and because it was authentic, it was attractive. She and Nathan seemed natural together.

            MMM’s passion with Ed seemed wooden in comparison, and so this too caused my opinion to lean towards her being a mid-range N. I thought that Ed was a mid-range N too. Maybe his lack of drama should have caused me to think of him as a normal, but it didn’t. He seemed unconcerned with presenting a facade. He seemed to develop some personality and depth of feeling once he put the Elvis suit on, and once he’d sung to MMM, he seemed more on the normal and less on the N-spectrum. Her response to his display of affection also caused them both to be seen in a new light.

            The difficulties in the MMM/Ed marriage are not the same as those in the Celeste/Perry marriage.

            MMM’s striving with the world initially seemed to be centred around her proving a point, and gaining a win more than for any altruistic purposes. Perhaps she’s reacting against a lifetime of being pushed around. I understand that.
            We need more information.

            Her response to being pushed around looks different to Celeste’s response to being pushed around.

            If you have the time to give us more of your professional opinion about these BLL characters, we’d love to read it. I’m sure that you’re busy IRL.

            Of course it is a work of fiction, so it’s like discussing Mr Darcy’s character and behaviour in ‘Pride and Prejudice’. The reader’s perceptions of him change from the beginning to the end of the book.

            Thanks again for your conflict resolution insights. It’s a subject close to my heart.

  7. Alexissmith2016 says:


    1. WokeAF says:

      Right??? Eeeeeeeee!!

  8. LC says:


    am so sad that this topic comes up exactly when I have so little time but I’m squeezing a post in while daughter jetlagged on sofa and before heading to work …

    I understand where you’re coming from and want to offer some consolation not that you need it, I know, but perhaps my experience explains some things.

    ” I’m tired of having to walk on eggshells myself in order not to ruffle feathers. I read lots of how others see or feel, but god forbid I should be able to say what I feel or felt. I have no right? I have been told I don’t understand, lack empathy, should forgive my mother……(isn’t that finger pointing?). Thing is, I think people discount the fact that I was watching both my mother and StepN from a third position. I was not IN the relationship and therefore have a different view than they might. Not exactly neutral but with more logic.”

    You probably know all what I’m going to write, I’m just writing it to make sure you know and feel that we’re on the same page (metaphorically and literally).

    That you ruffle feathers is because the victim veil is a coping strategy. And “we” as in not fully aware CoD protect it with all our might because underneath it is hurt.

    Underneath it is the realisation that we ourselves hurt our children. Not the narc alone No. We did too. And this is true for ALL types of people who shared parenthood with a narcissist over a long period of time.

    We ALL did this. We all hurt our children.

    The damage we inflict varies but we ALL did. Now HG has this classification of narcs with a dividing line between unaware and aware ones. With CoD it’s sort of similar yet different.

    You see Celeste: she is in denial but has a high degree of self awareness as well, which we can see in the therapeutic setting and at court. These Cods are the type of CoDs who will, with some help, be able to wake up and become fully conscious. Not just as regards the narcissism that they endured and colluded in as a victim, but, and this is what’s so important to me, also as regards their own purpetratorship.

    They will become conscious if they want to. Whether they want to truly own it depends on a number of factors but it depends to a high degree on the degree of self awareness that’s already there ; intelligence and perseverance is a factor, luck to meet a setting in which such growth is permitted because it needs a long time.

    It is a choice to become fully self aware. It is a hard choice to make with painful consequences because we care, truly care for our children, and we hurt when we realise how much we hurt them. But in my opinion it is the only option to truly help the children with what they endured. It is not honest to say I’m so sorry that I let myself be victimised by your father. It has to be: I’m sorry what I did to you.

    “I saw lots of StepN for sure, but I also saw the ways in which my mother acted which led me to the belief that she was complicit to some degree. She was not always a victim and there are times when she could have left. Do I think that is the case for all? No, it’s individual. Some (not saying all by any stretch) people will not accept easily that others have come to a position where they can own their part because they feel it demands something of them and they are not ready. Isn’t it more empowering to realize that you did have a part in it and recognize that you also have the power to then disengage from it? That the narc is powerless without your participation?”

    Yes. Once you own what you did you have the power in your own hands. You can actually no longer be victimised and will no longer be manipulated nor manipulate anyone else, and not your children.

    ” That’s my thinking, but apparently I don’t know anything because I was only watching.”

    This is a CoD/Co-Narcparent line of defense. I see a lot of this kind of thinking in various threads, older and not so old.

    There is outright denial: the narc did it all, then there is the first step of awareness: I allowed him to do things I shouldn’t have allowed, there is the second l: colluded. The third is hardly ever there : I regret my narcissism as regards my own children, mine and mine alone.

    It is hard to do when you grew up in a LOCE.

    HG says midrangers cannot become aware of their narcissism. CoD can but it is a choice. A hard one to make but its an empowering one to make.

    I have written below that I’ve had a therapist to help me with these issues. I’m learning here about the narcissist’s perspective but the CoD one is different. CoDs care – a lot – but they lash out at those who want to make them see. In defence. I deflected, denied and held back with my therapist just like Celeste. Just like Celeste I needed to be liked.

    When people write here they only need HG to understand their relationship with a narcissist then that’s okay. But to truly understand your relationship with your child when you are the sort of person to hook up with a narcissist repeatedly or have had family with him, you (as in plural, we all) must address your /our very own narcissism and not hide behind the veil of empathy, which can be used as a victim veil.

    Sorry this got so long.

  9. Sweetest Perfection says:

    My reception of this is completely useless. For example: I like Madeline because I thought it was fabulous that, out of all the outfits of Audrey Hepburn’s movies, she was the only one who had the genius initiative to wear the morning pj’s -and sleeping mask- of Breakfast at Tiffany’s, when everyone else would have opted for the iconic Givenchy black dress, like Celeste. I only noticed that Bonnie’s mother had super powers, telepathy or something. Yes, I’m horrendous at this, thank goodness we have the narc detector in real life. I wouldn’t stress myself out though, it’s just an exercise. No need to argue about it. NA, I don’t want to make a guess either for a similar reason: what if I like one character and he/she happens to be a narcissist? I would be burnt like a witch!

    1. WokeAF says:

      Do we get burnt if we like narcs?! I freaking love me a good narc.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Really? I only liked mine when he was not his real self. Anyway I meant what if you feel identified with one character and then it is revealed that person is a narc? I don’t wanna be caught in there.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Oooooh! Good one!! Lol I doubt anyone would rake you over thee coals for that . we will have a narcissistic traits

          1. WokeAF says:

            If you were perceived as being a narcissist it would be an incorrect perception .
            There are far too many truthseeking empaths here to settle for an incorrect perception holding water for very long lol

            Although I’ve been lurking for a year and a half before I really piped up , otherwise I may not feel safe expressing myself either .
            Then again it’s an online blog if you perceive the people don’t like it for some reason you can just close the page .

            I love Madeleine I think she’s hilarious and funny and I see myself in her and I see my friends in her.
            I see magnetic traits in her that I have . Same with the saviour traits .
            Sometimes those saviour traits can go into narcissistic selfish behaviour . Big deal shrug 🤷‍♀️ we are all growing . Evolving .

        2. LC says:

          SP, here is my suggestion in case that happens. I’m writing this answer thinking you weren’t being ironic and that it’s a serious question albeit with a tiny bit of tongue in cheek.

          So what happens if you identified with a character who turns out to be a narc. In that case you can bank on the fact that film makers manipulate audience sympathy. Why do we often like the baddie the best? Cos they’re interesting. Often the most awful villains have a very sympathetic streak about them, and if it’s just that they’re entertaining. Creators NEED them to be entertaining. If you identify with a villain you probably identify with what makes them likable. There’s no problem with that, especially since they’re fictional constructs.

          The question underneath that is maybe (I am guessing) this one: will I look like an idiot if I liked the wrong kind of person?

          Why should that be a problem! It would be a hugely beneficial opportunity to work out what it was that you missed, because it could give you an idea what your own personal red flag could be, the one to watch out for more than ever before.

          Or is the question underneath this one maybe: if I have identified with a narc, does this mean that I’m perhaps the narc after all ? Am I narcier than I thought and even HG said I was?

          Everything gets easier if we accept who we are. If you think you may be the narc (and have doubt that HG’s assessment that those people who are troubled by the question if they’re the narc are not one is not enough for you), I recommend the following strategy.

          Accept that you’re the narc. You would then be the kind of narcy person who CAN change.

          I asked my analyst about the treatment of narcissism. If you honestly WANT to change it’s a form of narcissm that can be treated. If you don’t want to change though, it can’t be treated. You yourself know deep down whether you want to change.

          This doesn’t go against HG’s teachings. He says narcs SAY they want to change but they’re not honest. You can’t make another person want to change. It must come from themselves or you yourself. Compare it to alcoholism. If you want an alcoholic to stop drinking there’s nothing you can do. You must wait until they want to stop themselves or leave them. There’s nothing else doing.

          Alcoholics do not seek treatment if they do not suffer from their addiction. There are narcs actually who suffer – and they do seek treatment. It can’t be treated completely but they can modify their behaviour to such a degree that they can lead healthy relationships. It takes a long time but it can be done. It can only be done if they WANT it.

          (Even HG is aiming for modified behaviour when it comes to the Shield Maiden) .

          The point is, IF you feel that you need to confront your own narcissism you can confront it – if you yourself want to change.

          Many of us ask ourselves if we’re the narc because we indeed display narcy behaviour! We recognise ourselves in some of the articles HG writes. Yes, all that can be confronted.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            LC, I will answer you and explain my previous question a little clearer, but thanks for the encouragement anyway. I wasn’t being ironic at all, I just didn’t provide all the details because I was scared of ending up immersed in a personal argument when in reality, I can’t care any less about all these characters … my doubt came because during the whole show, I saw a lot of common personality traits between Madeleine and me. I was under the impression she was an Empath with the same qualities my cadre has, not to mention that she, like me, had an extramarital affair. And then all of a sudden I read some posts arguing that she is a MRN! I don’t have any fear of being a narcissist -I did doubt myself at some point of course- because I took the Empath detector and I know I’m not. I was more afraid of being perceived as one, after establishing similarities with a character and then, imagine KA-BOOM! She’s the biggest narc in the story! Hahaha.

          2. LC says:


            “my doubt came because during the whole show, I saw a lot of common personality traits between Madeleine and me. I was under the impression she was an Empath with the same qualities my cadre has, not to mention that she, like me, had an extramarital affair. ”

            Och, even if she turns out to be the narc – (I doubt it, I think she’s between SP and CoD) – you identified not with a narc but with the Madeline you saw, and that’s an empathic one.

            You know you’re an empath. It would be ridiculous for people to see you as a narc just because you didn’t identify MMM correctly.

            Also it strikes me as weird that people always seem to think that empaths are likeable for everyone. Empath just means not a narc basically. And it means “not normal”, don’t forget 🙂

            From what I can tell you’re liked on this blog. That won’t change. If you met people from here in RL you might not get on with them. That would be normal. And some you would like. Same other way around. Some would adore you, others wouldn’t. The need to be liked drives us into narcy arms though because they’re so good at sensing that need…

            ” I was more afraid of being perceived as one, after establishing similarities with a character and then, imagine KA-BOOM! She’s the biggest narc in the story! Hahaha.”

            Don’t be. We know you’re not. Most important in my eyes would be to lose the need to be perceived in a certain way (that’s our brand of narcissism that we can lose actually !)

            And you don’t need to get into any arguments here that you don’t want to have. I can see why you’re anxious though, I reckon that is because these arguments really aren’t about the characters, but about the projections we have, I. E. the way we view them (I think NA is right there) and that’s why this place got to be a hothouse…

            Personally I think its been and still is a great exercise – because it brings out the worst in us and the best. A true learning opportunity …. I hadn’t considered what might happen when the results are in. I’m very curious about that part of the exercise now as well!

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you to both of you, LC and WokeAF. In the end Madeline is an Empath, whew!!! I am not worried about how others perceive me in general, unless I love them and care for them, but I try to be careful in the blog because it’s easy to get caught in an argument.

          4. MommyPino says:

            This is a lesson for me.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Mommypino, and K, I didn’t want to intervene but I like you both and it hurts me to see you two entangled in an argument. I hope you can go back to the good relationship you always had and forget about this silliness. But I was worried about expressing my opinion before that happened so it’s not because of you two or that thread 😘

          6. MommyPino says:

            Thank you SP. I agree. I really wish I could turn back time and just not have reacted. I need to learn how to slow my reactions down. I don’t know if it’s something that I picked up from my Lesser or if I have some anger management issues. I just know that I don’t like this.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Mommypino, I can be very incendiary sometimes. What I do to stay away from telling certain people to go fuck themselves in the blog is to type it, something like: “fuckyourselfyoubitch!!!” Then pause and reflect: do you really wanna send this? Go for a walk. When I’m back, the anger is over and I delete. One on these days I’m gonna have an accident though … 😆

          8. MommyPino says:

            Haha that’s a really good tip!! I can already imagine the face I will be making while typing that😁. Yeah, I will definitely do that. I would definitely be less inclined to quickly push the send button if I type something like that (fuckyourselfyoubitch!!!) than typing what I mistakenly think as a righteous response. 😊👍. Thank you SP. 😘

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha I’m really not sweet, I just like long walks.

          10. MommyPino says:

            Haha you are sweet!!! With some spiciness lol. Sweet and spicy! 😜

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Level 3 spicy 🌶 🌶🌶

          12. WokeAF says:

            MP Oh shit are we supposed to be typing righteous responses in here?

            Oh boy I’m in trouble

            It’s rare that I take myself seriously so it’s pretty difficult to take anyone else too seriously
            Most times I just want to say to people;
            “oh lighten the fuck up “
            Then throw a lamp at them .

            Even I got drawn into it taking myself so seriously this last week. Utterly ridiculous to me .

            But there’s a time and place for being serious and actually I’m more apt to F that up . I’m more likely to be not serious enough in situations that require it , then the other way around


          13. MommyPino says:

            Haha WokeAF, that is my problem!! I take everything too seriously and too intensely! I swear, since childhood I have always been a weirdo like this. That’s why I married my husband who is always cracking up jokes to me and always sarcastic in a funny way. I need his sense of humor so I can lighten the fuck up! 😂

          14. MommyPino says:

            Although WokeAF, oddly enough, my husband thinks I’m so funny. He just laughs at me for always being too sincere and intense. Especially when I tell him something heartfelt, he pauses and looks at me and chuckles and says, “ I just love my wife.” And shakes his head with a smile. ☺️

          15. WokeAF says:

            Sounds like you have a good man.

            You’re good enough just the way you are MP

            And anyone who says you’re not is… Ready for it .?….Lying

          16. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF. 💕.

          17. WokeAF says:

            MP i’m lost in the threads but to address a comment you just left saying you wish things could go back to the way they were before

            Thanks can never go back to the way they were before after truth bomb goes off . You just pick the shrapnel out and keep moving and you grow and learn from it IF you’re able to .

            Everybody can grow from this experience in a big way . Sometimes we have to see the walls we didn’t know we had there so that we can destroy them and get closer to each other .

            I’m pretty relieved actually to not see 85 messages from the Ed thread in my inbox every day

            The legendary Ed thread 😄

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh dear, I’m so glad I didn’t sign up for that thread! I’ve heard all kinds of horror stories. Lol

          19. WokeAF says:

            SP growth is usually painful
            But more painful is staying in the chrysalis

          20. NarcAngel says:

            Chrysalis?! I considered Crystal Meth just to get through that thread lol.

          21. WokeAF says:

            LOL .

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, hahahaha. Now I wanna go read it.

          23. WokeAF says:

            Not to mention we now have the phrase “Ed Thread” 😆 and I am forever grateful for that

          24. MommyPino says:

            Great point WokeAF. I am also relieved that this didn’t blow up like the ‘Ed Thread’. I have been feeling like I’m on pins and needles. Last week was not fun for me at all. I have been crying nonstop the night before my flight home and desperately finding someone to talk to. Thankfully there was someone whom I used to interact with at this blog but hasn’t been active lately that I was able to chat with on IG. She has been a commenter on the blog for a long time so she knows a lot. I asked her if I really gaslighted. I sent her my comments and she said that she doesn’t think that I gaslighted. I didn’t think that I was a narcissist but I was feeling guilty for having unknowingly manipulated people and I was wondering what have I been doing that I wasn’t aware of? I’m not very familiar with gaslighting and word salad so I was afraid that I have inadvertently done those even though I didn’t mean to. I was crying at the bus, I was crying at the hotel room, I was crying at the airport in Manila and Taiwan, I was crying on the plane. When I got home to Cali I didn’t want to look at my emails. I was so tired of it that it was the last thing that I wanted to do. I didn’t enjoy that Ed Thread one bit. But I have learned a lot from it. The nice thing about me though is after I cry it out I’m back to being ok again. I really believe that I have some Geyser in me even though I am not histrionic.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh MP I’m sorry you felt that way. We all explode sometimes and say things we shouldn’t. I don’t want you to cry for a silly argument in a blog!! You just came from a long trip and probably that made you more vulnerable. I didn’t read the whole thread but it was my impression that you two were caught in a personal discussion about good parenting rather than just figuring out the personality of the characters and I think a lot of trauma was involved in that. Nothing that we are not used to enduring, I believe we more than anyone should understand those emotional outbursts. As I said before, I hope you and K can sweep this under the carpet (is that an expression? Am I making it up and sounding ”moronic”?).

          26. MommyPino says:

            Thank you SP. It’s definitely time to move on. I’m glad it’s over now! I’m ok now. I think I was more vulnerable at that time too because I was away from my family and my mom just passed away. I haven’t cried since I got back home. But I would definitely not want to be involved in another Narcsite kerfuffle. I’ll be more careful from now on.

          27. K says:

            I see Facade Maintenance, blame shifting and a Pity Play. You have no awareness or insight at all and you are clearly the victim in all of this.


          28. WokeAF says:

            Ha hahahahaha!!!
            About typing the gofuckyourself !! That’s sooo funny I pictured u doing it 😆 😂 😆 I’m dying lmfao

          29. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Don’t be afraid to express your opinion. Be fearless and speak up. Life is too short to do otherwise.

          30. WokeAF says:

            Regarding reacting too quickly online

            My advice is always read everything in a neutral tone in your head not your usual mental narrator voice. If you’re not sure about something read it in your head like a robot voice .
            Read it as if someone who is saying it is totally objective and neutral and has no opinion at all .

            If I ever feel reactionary to something or think I am that’s what I do

          31. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF, that’s a really good advice too!

  10. LC says:

    HG, I might as well binge post and add a missing correction to my view on Perry, if we’re not getting the results, you future faker 🙂

    Originally I thought Perry wasn’t aware of his narcissism but in season 2 there is a flashback to the golden period when Perry and Celeste had just started dating: they talk about their parents and Celeste explains she lost her father early. Perry is testing her reaction when he says that he thinks that this means that he will have her all to himself. She is visibly confused by his words but says yes. He is visibly satisfied with this outcome. I think this is a pointer to a Machiavellian type of courtship. All the more so because Celeste realises in hindsight that she was being tested and missed a red flag (or there wouldn’t have been a reason for the flashback).

    So if some greaters dig violence I am opting for lower greater somatic. If greaters never use physical violence he can’t be a greater despite his awareness – but since awareness can involve a conscious streak of sadism my final vote is greater somatic sadist. Given how terrible and creepy a mother Mary Louise is it would make sense …

    Right, all you wonderful ladies and gents, I must sign off for good now—probably won’t be able to contribute much more to this thread cos my lovely daughter is coming home for a visit (all the way from the other side of the planet), I haven’t seen her in a while – and am very exited…

    1. WokeAF says:

      I voted LGN, and it was my first impression of him
      I noted that Celeste almost has a Stepford wife kind of life aside from the beatings, Also at one point he had said that people could be Nice and yet not nice people? Something like that there’s some kind of insight I mentioned it in my very first post about him somewhere.

  11. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: I saw what that teen was doing, to sell her body for the cause, was a cry for help. She is confused about what is the purpose of women and their bodies and the value of their chastity and the often hypocritical messages that society sends, about what makes a woman a success, such as the success of the Kardashians, balanced with finding a cause, like world peace, etc. Also, the casting does help the character assessment of the show. I noticed that the casting direction chose actors and actresses that easily fit the type of person for the written script. So most of us did feel that we could assess the characters from the writing as well as the casting. That is good. Regarding promises: Promises are often the plot of crime shows, whether or not a child is told by an adult to promise not to tell what they do with the child, whether a young girl that is missing told her best friend she is running off that night with her new soulmate that she has spoken to on the internet, or whether some friend is secretly buying explosives and tells a friend not to tell anyone he is going to target and blow up a section of the city. Or, a person plans to kill their parents, and tells a friend to swear not to tell. Or a man plans to has his wife or girlfriend killed and tells a friend not to tell. When does a person keep or expose someone else’s secret? At what point does someone become an accessory to whatever happens? Also, Bonnie does not know all the reasons that the teen wants to go to planned parenthood. And if the teen wanted an abortion and obtained one and died, what would Bonnie say to the mother then? Bonnie said she had weak boundaries and started having sex at 13 years old to find acceptance. And unfortunately instead of learning from that, although she sounded mournful when she made the statement, she decided to still side with the teen. And the teen does not seem to be that bright. And if there is a next season and the writers throw in odd backstories and character development that is totally illogical, that is just gratuitous writing and shockmaking writing, instead of the writers taking the time to make thoughtful character development and plausible conflict, and many series have failed when they take the gratuitous route. Many times.

    1. K says:

      Rather than focus on hypothetical situations, focus on what actually transpired. Look at it logically.

      Abby asked for a ride to PP to get BC and Bonnie drove her. Abby’s entitled to autonomy and control. End of story.

      Madeline is completely irrelevant and has absolutely no say in her daughter’s life. Period.

      1. LC says:

        K, how come that you say a mother has nothing to say in a daughter’s life and is irrelevant. Please explain a bit more. Mine is 23 and I tell her when I think she is off kilter, even if she is entitled to her own autonomy. She decides what she does because she is the adult but I expect her to listen to me. She doesn’t have to like what I’m saying but I do want her to listen to me. Not to DO what I say but to HEAR what I say. It’s my job as a mother to keep communicative channels open so if I mess up she’ll withdraw but to confront also means to care. And Abigail appreciates her mother’s intervention.

        An example. My daughter is booking up with narcs (bc of her family history and evidently my own involvement with them ). I see it. She does not yet. I confront her. I don’t say don’t date this dude. But I say that I don’t like it if she doesn’t check if it’s a good bloke before she’s. moving in with someone because she is putting herself in danger.

        The way I see your input here is that you’re isolating one question (does Abigail have to have Madeline’s permission) from the rest. We know that the story does not end with Abigail simply wanting contraceptives for healthy sex. If you isolate the event (assuming Madeline should assume Abigail is after healthy sex), fine, but you can perhaps also see Madeline’s POV that she has reason to think that Abigail is not ready. If you’re in touch with your child somewhat you know that things are off. You appreciate also if you get pointers from other people that something is off when kids go through puberty and distance themselves from you, and necessarily so. Also Madeline’s jealousy is only human, you’ll realise when you are faced with an empty nest!

        I understand PSE’s input. Realistically, there must be a psychological reason (probably to do with her mother partly) why Abigail wants to auction off her virginity. However Abigails project is also a requirement of the story: it’s a test as to who gets her to see reason. And that’s her mother.

        1. K says:

          Unless I’m invited, I do not insert myself into my teenage child’s sex life or reproductive choices. S(he) is entitled to autonomy and control. Abby gets to decide when she is ready to have sex, not her mother.

          1. LC says:

            K, I get that. Do you think its ok that a teenager auctions off her virginity though? I don’t, I think they need protection from doing this. Children make bad choices and they have parents to look after them. Imagine Abigail had gone through with it?

          2. K says:

            I agree with you, I don’t think it’s a good idea at all. And, if a parent finds out about it, they should make an effort to convince the teenager that it isn’t a prudent choice.

          3. LC says:


            Ok, understood. And what weighs higher in your eyes: the teen’s autonomy to want to go to PP without mum knowing or mum’s obligation to protect the child from making an unwise choice such as selling her virginity? The story asks us to weigh these two questions. Answering it has consequences for how you view the character psychology.

          4. K says:

            To be very clear, the PP incident occurred first. The audience doesn’t know about the “auctioning off of the virginity plot” at this point.

            The “plot” is discovered in a later episode, where both Nathan and Bonnie inform MMM and Ed at dinner, at which point MMM vomits, she then successfully talks Abby out of Auctioning off her Virginity.

            Irrespective of the “Plot”, Abby is still entitled to autonomy and control over her body.

          5. LC says:


            “Irrespective of the “Plot”, Abby is still entitled to autonomy and control over her body.“

            Granted. Nobody argues with that I think. I certainly don’t.

            And yes, the birth control story happened before everybody found out why Abigail wanted contraceptives. But as viewers we were left in the dark why she wanted them. Abby knew already at that time. Meaning that at that time the plot was already unfolding.

            Abby knew why she wanted contraception. Madeline didn’t. Madeline was jealous of Bonnie and a more relaxed mum might have been able to just watch the step mum take on a part she would have loved to have played herself. That’s all granted.

            It’s not abusive though that MMM wanted to play that part. Madeline is far from perfect. That’s why she actually has to face an absurdly hard challenge to come out as an okay mother in the end. I can list tonnes of “mistakes” Madeline makes with her kids. But she gets that bit right that she stops Abby from selling her body whereas Nathan and Bonnie can’t. This is indicative of a mother daughter bond that is in place despite all conflicts and despite all the mistakes Madeline makes as a mother.

            All mothers in the series must face challenges with their children and the way they do can serve as the narcdar.

            What’s interesting is that Bonnie doesn’t have ANY conflicts with her daughter. I’ll have to mull that over a bit and I’ll write a mother – kid – conflict post when I get the time.

        2. K says:

          Pointing out facts isn’t haughty or aggressive; it’s just pointing out facts. It’s not my fault that MP engineered her own self-made victimhood or the fact that WAF chose to jump on the bandwagon, also, I am not responsible for their insecurity.

          What I would have liked to have seen is more LT than ET.

          1. LC says:


            No, you’re not responsible for their insecurity. However when you notice it, an empathic and cool and collected person does not add to the insecurity by throwing in “facts”. They weren’t, it wasn’t a fact that MP was rewriting history. She was explaining the ways in which she felt misunderstood. There was no victim card. Not in my eyes. Woke Af felt you were being unfair (I think she was right there) and tried to help. However she lost it somewhat due to her insecurity. A healthier reaction on your part would have been to let MP explain how she felt misunderstood. And take her word for it. You went for the kill right away, if she really had wanted to be the victim you would have seen it after an empathic attempt of yours to understand her POV. It’s easier for me to see because I wasn’t involved. We don’t need to get into it further if you don’t want to, but I wanted to let you know how I perceived you there. Not as empathic but actually quite wrong, and the facts are perhaps your way of reacting when you’re emotionally charged. I certainly know that I used to do this too takes one to know one It could well be that this is also the reason why I was so annoyed with your reaction because I’m witnessing an obsolete conflict style of mine.. And no it’s not projection, it’s recognition 🙂

          2. K says:

            Did you read through the thread? Did you miss the part where she attacked NarcAngel and cb?
            Did you miss the temper tantrums, projection, deflection, blame shifting, denial, the false accusations or the assumptions she made?

            Rather than play the victim card, it would have been healthier if she simply clarified herself instead of deflecting, which is stonewalling BTW.

          3. MommyPino says:

            K, did you miss the part that I have already apologized for overreacting and explained that I thought that there is/was a clique? Did you miss the part where those temper tantrums were caused by your repressed provocations by accusing me of gaslighting and calling me manipulative and a liar and announcing (with amazing entitlement) that those were facts? You can name all kinds of manipulations that you want but my conscience is clear that it wasn’t me who escalated this and have been name calling and making false accusations for days, even when I wasn’t online. Did you miss the part that I didn’t respond to a lot of your inflammatory comments?

          4. K says:

            Still playing the victim card, I see.

          5. K says:

            No I didn’t miss that. Your first temper tantrum occurred when you became butt hurt over a comment that I made to WAF, then you attacked NarcAngel and cb.

            Here is a list of what you wrote on the Ed thread and these statements are all untrue.

            1. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
            2. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
            3. Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
            4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
            5. Why is there a necessity for name calling
            6. I did not paint the Filipinos as victims.
            7. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            8. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
            9. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way.
            10. But I was telling the truth when I said that I didn’t say that you called Filipinos assholes and tattletales, I was telling the truth, I really didn’t say it, you misunderstood it and I was thinking that maybe I structured the sentence poorly that is why you misunderstood it.

          6. WokeAF says:


            Thank you , just one thing so you know me better –
            – i lost it But it was not due to insecurity.

            I could very easily see and feel where both MP and K were coming from, and I was trying to determine truth the entire time .

            There WAS an element of pride , As I was not going to let someone tell me what my intentions are , nor tell me which morals are correct and which are not because they’re all made up anyway in my view .

            I knew I was not intentionally manipulating noe was MP and I was not going to let someone say that I or MP were doing so

            I knew that MP was not gaslighting as we understand gaslighting to be .

            There was a brief moment when I got turned around in my OWN perspective because I was seeing everyone else’s so deeply – and that’s why ET took over and I begin to really feel angry and irritable and defensive , I wondered if I was being manipulated myself ! Haha
            ( hence my rude comment to MP which I immediately regretted try to apologize for and still feel bad about actually lol)

            I think it’s hilarious that now we are still debating on the morals of birth control lol 😆
            But I’m enjoying it right now from an impartial view because I have spoken my piece and I will not allow myself to get a motional he involved because it’s stupid

            Thank you so much for your attempt to understand where i was coming from all this time

          7. WokeAF says:

            Yes to everything thank you

            And I just realized insecurity may be correct lol
            I did become insecure that I could trust anyone here for a minute lol

          8. mommypino says:

            “They weren’t, it wasn’t a fact that MP was rewriting history. She was explaining the ways in which she felt misunderstood. There was no victim card. Not in my eyes. Woke Af felt you were being unfair (I think she was right there) and tried to help. However she lost it somewhat due to her insecurity. A healthier reaction on your part would have been to let MP explain how she felt ”

            Thank you LC for being the voice of reason. I was honestly more than happy to move on, however when I read a comment from K such as this:

            “Pointing out facts isn’t haughty or aggressive; it’s just pointing out facts. It’s not my fault that MP engineered her own self-made victimhood or the fact that WAF chose to jump on the bandwagon, also, I am not responsible for their insecurity.“

            I couldn’t help but express my thoughts.

            I don’t think that there is room for character assassination/ ad Hominem attacks/ and verbal abuse in a healthy discussion and in a healthy dynamic. I did not lie. I made a mistake when I took a comment personally and have owned up to my mistake and have apologized several times for it. I did not deserve to be maligned and decimated for an honest mistake. I did not manipulate anybody. I did not play a victim to make WokeAF defend me. That is a fact. I did not manipulate WokeAF. I tried to clarify my point of view by writing that long-winded questionnaire to WokeAF but I was not expecting her or anybody to agree with me. I just wanted to express where I was coming from. I was thankful when WokeAF understood me even though she also expressed disagreement. I was grateful that she understood me and didn’t completely dismiss my POV. K pointed out the alleged ‘narcissistic manipulations’ by me, I ignored them but I responded with what I thought was a diplomatic response. I have to say though that both WokeAF and I (the people accused of playing the victims) have both apologized several times for our actions. I have yet to see K own up to her actions and apologize for the Ad Hominem attacks. Madeline said that it takes a very big person to apologize when Renata apologized to Jane. I totally agree.

          9. WokeAF says:

            if a massive purpose in one’s life is to protect others from bullying

            And then someone basically accuses this person of bullying

            I imagine there might be a little resistance on the part of the ego
            As it would be an affront to everything the person stands for and identifies with

          10. MommyPino says:


            You did not point out facts when you said that I am a Liar, Manipulator, Queen of Victimhood and a Lightweight. Those were Ad Hominem attacks that did not contribute anything substantial to our discussion.

            When you called WokeAF a Spineless Idiot, that is Verbal Abuse! If you were both working in a corporation, you could have been fired for calling a coworker a Spineless Idiot. Those are Ad Hominem attacks. There’s no excuse for those.

            How can you say that those Ad Hominem attacks are facts when you don’t even know us IRL.

          11. K says:

            Facts, not ad Hominem attacks.

            I am still waiting for evidence of my lies BTW.

          12. WokeAF says:

            Jeez , spineless idiot is even worse than spineless victim !! LOL haha Jk
            Mommypino good to see you back . I still feel remnants of sadness about my heartless comment to you , but it’s turned into a sense of love and fondness for you , mixed in was feeling silly about myself which is perfectly OK with me!! ..

            Hope you’re doing OK with the whole mom thing .


          13. MommyPino says:

            I’m doing ok WokeAF. Being with family makes a world of difference. Was it spineless victim? Lol I can’t remember exactly anymore. I promise I wasn’t gaslighting you! 😜 😈.

            K, I’m at an aquarium with kids having fun. Will provide you with a response later when I have more time to search, copy and paste. But on the Victimhood comment, when someone is defending herself that is not playing the victim. That is being authentic to yourself and not letting anyone have power over you by imposing their “facts” against your truth. I don’t want to blow up this thread like we did with Ed so I will just leave some final thoughts and we can agree to disagree in the end. I am not demanding an apology from you for your Ad Hominem attacks as I have already said previously that I’m not entitled to justice or fairness. But I just wanted to point out your behavior since you are so great at pointing out other people’s behaviors and glossing overs.

          14. WokeAF says:

            Would you apologize to me for calling me an idiot and a spineless victim ?
            Would you apologize for any hostility that came through when you said those things?

          15. MommyPino says:

            K if you apologize to WokeAF I will not argue with you anymore. Forget about me. I really think that you owe her an apology. She didn’t do anything to deserve that name.

          16. K says:

            You accused me of lying, where’s the evidence?

          17. mommypino says:

            You have repeatedly and passionately accused me of lying. You have called me a liar and manipulative and screamed those names directed at me as ‘facts’.

            According to Merriam-Webster, lying is to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive.
            According to Merriam-Webster, to manipulate is to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one’s own advantage.

            You said yesterday (Aug.1) that these are my lies:

            “Here is a list of what you wrote on the Ed thread and these statements are all untrue.
            1. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me,
            2. The statement about turning around being a tattletale asshole
            3. Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced
            4. Whenever you told me that I have a moral obligation to do this and that
            5. Why is there a necessity for name calling
            6. I did not paint the Filipinos as victims.
            7. In the Philippines, the people that you call assholes or tattletales
            8. K, I didn’t say that you called people in the Phils. assholes and tattletales
            9. It must be the structure of my sentence that made it sound that way.
            10. But I was telling the truth when I said that I didn’t say that you called Filipinos assholes and tattletales, I was telling the truth, I really didn’t say it, you misunderstood it and I was thinking that maybe I structured the sentence poorly that is why you misunderstood it.”

            OK, let’s look at 1-2. I have already apologized for that several times. I have said that it was a mistake. I have unwittingly projected my own insecurity or fear of being ganged up unto you and those who supported you (cb, NA and WokeAF). It was a trigger caused by years of being ganged up on by my adult stepdaughters. It is something that I have identified in myself as a problem and needs work and attention. I did not lie. I did not have an intent to deceive. I did not manipulate. I did not play upon this artfully for my own advantage. I have repeatedly explained to you that I didn’t lie, I overreacted, and yet you have dismissed my explanations and still propagating this narrative that I lied when I took the tattletale and asshole comment of yours personally. Most people can see that if they read my very emotional comment that I didn’t lie, I overreacted. You refuse to see it. You refuse to hear my explanation. You staunchly stand by your version and propagate an information that I have already told you is false. Do you have an intent to deceive in this case? Maybe, maybe not.

            3-4. Thanks to WokeAF for providing this. I didn’t need to scroll down a long thread in a very slow laptop anymore.

            K on July 24, 2019 at 13:28
            Once an individual shares confidential information with you, you should respect their wishes and keep it private.

            K on July 24, 2019 at 16:58
            Wrong. I am not telling her what to

            5., I have already explained it in 1-2. It was a mistake and an overreaction. It wasn’t a lie. I didn’t have an intent to deceive. When I wrote the comment that included 1,2 and 5 that you are quoting, I really believed what I was saying because I misunderstood the situation. Go back to 1-2 for more explanations.

            6-10. K, we have already explained that several times to you. You even acquiesced that it was a misunderstanding and told me, “sorry for the misunderstanding.” This was when you falsely accused me of gaslighting. For you to recycle this and in effect nullifying the apology that you gave me looks like a lie. You are aware of what you are doing with the evidence of even quoting my most recent explanation in number 10 which you have previously accepted and apologized to me for the ‘misunderstanding’. Well after this, it isn’t misunderstanding anymore, you are deceptive now and you are aware of it. You are therefore lying. And even manipulative by Merriam-Webster’s definition.

          18. WokeAF says:


            Is also evidence of the hypocrisy I was trying to point out.
            As is what LC pointed out re: children being free to do/go wherever, // but at the same time parents needing to Interfere to protect them .

          19. WokeAF says:

            One can’t say that children are free to go here and there and do this and do that and the parents are irrelevant
            And at the time same time say that a parent should step in and try to prevent a child from doing something they perceive it’s not a good idea
            That would be hypocrisy.

            UNLESS – you’re like me – and you agree with both things simultaneously .
            But when I try to put that point across you called me wishy-washy . You said I was flip-flopping

            I could understand that it was a betrayal for Bonnie to rat out Abby to Madeline but at the same time I agreed with it and I understood Madeline‘s point of view.

            I wasn’t being wishy-washy and I wasn’t flip-flopping . I was seeing the bigger picture And also looking at the individual situations

          20. WokeAF says:


            Are you ok. This has been a bit much. For everyone. Are you feeling alright ?

          21. K says:

            My comment below was challenge fuel because questions are an affront to the narcissist’s sense of superiority and entitlement.

            K says:
            August 1, 2019 at 22:53
            You accused me of lying, where’s the evidence?

            Words are fuel, however, she feels a lack of control and this results in a manipulative response so she deploys The Narcissists’s Twin Lines of Defence by denying, deflecting, blame shifting, projecting, using pity plays, glossing over and diluting her behaviour.

            Manipulators often tell you how you think or feel by making inaccurate assumptions. She wasn’t with me when I typed my comments so how could she possibly know that I was screaming? (I wasn’t BTW)

            “You have called me a liar and manipulative and screamed those names directed at me as ‘facts.”

            Please read and enjoy the article below for a thorough explanation of what transpired on this thread and the Ed Thread.


          22. WokeAF says:


            Additionally if you could clarify your point of you or what you were trying to say in the following statements that would help me out .

            K on July 25, 2019 at 15:23
            I know two CoDs that rewrite episodes, manipulate and lie and I am currently friends with an empath who has strong CoD traits and she is overly sensitive, has poor boundary recognition, obsesses, idealizes and devalues and she rewrites situations.
            Toxic personalities can gas light

            (Do you maintain still that this is gaslighting as HG has defined it?)

            K on July 26, 2019 at 13:26
            Of course my emotions were triggered. It’s very frustrating to deal with people who have a victim mentality. Right now, I am in Narc Vegas and I am trying to keep my hatred under control with logic

            ( when you said not to Vegas were you referring to myself and mommypino? Were you feeling hatred towards us ? Or was this a referral to someone else in your life at the moment ?)

            K on July 24, 2019 at 13:28

            Once an individual shares confidential information with you, you should respect their wishes and keep it private.

            K on July 24, 2019 at 16:58
            Wrong. I am not telling her what to

            ( what is this what you were consider rewriting history or denial or gaslighting ?)


          23. WokeAF says:

            As I’ve demonstrated, I could jump in and pull quotes , copy paste, argue definitions, intentions, , etc.
            What I think would be really nice is if you, K, just admit you were kinda a meanie pants and say sawwy and then we all put our big girl panties on and get on w our lives – and try not to jump down each other’s throats if we have the bad feels.

          24. WokeAF says:

            And MP- if you’re slipping into victim mentality I can gently point it out to you in the future if you want to work on that. 😊

          25. mommypino says:

            WokeAF, Honestly I felt defensive about the ‘victim mentality’ or ‘playing the victim card’ observations against me. It felt like an attack rather than a constructive criticism. But since you brought it up again, I started to reflect on myself. I honestly have always believed myself to be a fighter and a survivor. I asked my husband who knows me more than anybody if I have a victim mentality and what he said makes a lot of sense and makes me understand what you and K have seen and why I had a hard time believing it. He said that I have a very multi-faceted personality. My default (using his words) is that I am bubbly, I always sparkle, I shine like a diamond and that’s why everybody likes me. He said that’s why even though I’m a Catholic I’m more popular than him in his Mormon church that we go to. I have that sparkle of positivity. He said that’s why our kids are so bubbly is because they got it from me. Then he said I also have this facet where when something bad happens all of a sudden my sparkle dims and I spiral into victimhood. He thinks that I got it from the way I was raised by my mom which was so dysfunctional. He said that he doesn’t really know exactly what victimhood is but he said that when I spiral into this dark place, I start to stop seeing forest for the trees and I stop trusting even him. So it is definitely something that I need to look at and work on. But he said that it doesn’t happen a lot. He said that generally I’m Sparky, very upbeat, dynamic, and fun to be with and fun to watch. He said I rarely complain but at the same time I am demanding. He doesn’t think that I am living in a victim mentality but he said that I do have it and it shows when something bad happens.

            WokeAF, do you want to have a word code that we can use to call each other out when we are falling into victimhood? I will search for books that talk about it as well so that I can learn more.

          26. WokeAF says:

            MP i’m also a fighter and a survivor. I don’t see victim mentality is even being a bad thing necessarily it’s just a framework from which I sometimes find myself operating that just isn’t helpful to my soul
            . Feeling like “God” forgot ME for love, or the world left me out . Things are too hard, the circumstances are stacked against me etc.

            And when something shitty happens it’s OK to feel
            Sometimes we are victimized and it’s OK to feel hurt that someone hurt you

            But for me I find the victim mentality framework is a quick go-to when I’m feeling overwhelmed. And it’s not empowering so I’m looking to drop it .
            Just seeing through it clearly more and more over the last year, has made it drop off quite a bit.

          27. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF. I was perplexed to be accused of playing the victim card because pity is never the kind of attention that I have ever wanted. I never want people to feel bad for me. But now I see that victim mode is also when for example I have said that because I am pro life my thoughts are not welcomed or something (I can’t remember the exact words I said). I now realize that victim mode is also the thought process of being under siege by people or feeling like I’m not in control. So I think that I need to explore that area and where that attitude is coming from because like you said, it’s not empowering.

          28. K says:

            The two comments below are gas lighting.

            The abuser(s) will accuse the victim of being abusive when she defends herself and then demand an apology.

            MommyPino says:
            August 1, 2019 at 22:31
            K if you apologize to WokeAF I will not argue with you anymore. Forget about me. I really think that you owe her an apology. She didn’t do anything to deserve that name.

            WokeAF says:
            August 1, 2019 at 21:51
            Would you apologize to me for calling me an idiot and a spineless victim ?
            Would you apologize for any hostility that came through when you said those things?

          29. K says:

            You did write this comment correct?

            WokeAF says:
            July 28, 2019 at 01:24
            I’m glad you were harsh with me, I needed it. And I broke thru to a new level of awareness bc of all this. I’m forever grateful to you. You’re smart as fuck. Feel free to point out anything to me in the future. I can swallow a slice of humble pie any time. I’m devoted to awakening, and that means getting real with myself.
            Your mind is quick at identifying the traits and manipulations. Don’t stop. You’re accelerating my learning process exponentially.

          30. WokeAF says:

            Yes lol just not with hostility or name calling ideally

          31. MommyPino says:

            Hi K, this is probably something that you can relate to since you were also raised by a matrinarc.
            When my mom died I had so much conflicting feelings. As I was cleaning her apartment I saw that she kept all of my pictures and cards that’s i sent her. She even put a Mother’s Day card that I sent to her by her bedside. It’s a very complicated and confusing feeling to see signs that there might be a possibility that my mom may have loved me secretly even though she was amazingly hostile and abusive towards me my whole life. When I took care of her before she died, I got reminded of how she took care of me when I was a child. She took care of me very well for the most part. But at the same time she always shamed me and was physically and verbally abusive to me. Does her abuse towards me erase the fact that she raised me and took care of me? It does not. I am still grateful to her for so many things that she did right and for giving me life. But at the same time the way that she treated me still hurts me when I remember, especially as I was looking at the old pictures and memories are brought back. WokeAF is an empath. Empaths do not do black and white. She was expressing thanks to you for the knowledge that you gave her. But it doesn’t erase the unnecessary words that you directed towards her. It doesn’t make the whole thing white. And just because she was hurt by some of your mean words, it doesn’t mean that she can’t appreciate your help towards her understanding. It doesn’t make the whole thing black. There is nothing wrong about her thanking you and at the same time pointing out that you were hostile to her.

          32. K says:

            You wrote this on Toxic Logic.

            WokeAF says:
            July 31, 2019 at 06:54
            I can predict manipulation , beginning to be able to identify the manipulations (shoutout to K lol)

          33. WokeAF says:

            Yes bc I learned a lot from what you did about the manipulations.
            And your harshness Broke me through to an insight about playing the victim.

            K Would you apologize to me for calling me an idiot and a spineless victim ? Would you apologize for any hostility that came through when you said those things?

            I asked if you would in the name of making peace. I think pointing out manipulations is one thing it can be helpful for sure but being hostile and name-calling is something else and now that I’m back to my regular state of mind I can see that it probably is totally unnecessary for me and for most people .

          34. MommyPino says:

            “It’s not my fault that MP engineered her own self-made victimhood or the fact that WAF chose to jump on the bandwagon, also, I am not responsible for their insecurity.”

            Wow you’re just all that aren’t you? I’m glad I have a life aside from Narcsite.

          35. LC says:


            Bullying is a big word. I also think it requires intent, so in my opinion that is NOT what went on in your Ed thread. That I wrote “going in for the kill” could be mistaken as an accusation of bullying, but that’s not at all what I’m saying or suggesting.

            I think the conflict strategy with “facts” that aren’t any (although they appear as facts from another perspective) is not bullying but an aggressive rhetorical defence, and it is often used unwittingly.

            I’m not going to comment on the second part, the bit about ego. We should talk WITH one another, not ABOUT one another. I like analysing fictional characters but draw the line when it comes to participants on this blog.

            If K wants to chime in and wants an analysis from me, different story but I sincerely doubt that anyone here would like to be dissected like a character in a story. And since we’re not psychologists and you / one cannot analyse people online on the basis of their contribution in an online forum I suggest we don’t do that.

          36. MommyPino says:

            “We should talk WITH one another, not ABOUT one another. I like analysing fictional characters but draw the line when it comes to participants on this blog.

            If K wants to chime in and wants an analysis from me, different story but I sincerely doubt that anyone here would like to be dissected like a character in a story. And since we’re not psychologists and you / one cannot analyse people online on the basis of their contribution in an online forum I suggest we don’t do that.”

            Thank you LC. Very wise of you and well said.

          37. WokeAF says:

            Fair enough

          38. LC says:


            “Did you read through the thread?”

            A lot of it. Not all of it. I read large parts and I wanted to make a criticism of your behaviour in those large chunks I read. I am wondering if you can see that you yourself might have made mistakes: not only in your analysis but also in the way you presented that analysis.

            I must explain why I’m getting involved.

            I think that it’s difficult to criticise you when you think you’re right. You are quick to pull up quotes and links and you are very knowledgable about narcissism, second probably only to HG and some of the professional psychologists who post here. Then you are very present on this blog and you are very well liked. Readers here are less assured about the topic than you are. So they might not intervene in case they’ve missed something. Many have waited out the thread and not said much, hoping it would go away.

            I am getting and staying involved – because waiting for conflict to go away even if it is not resolved is unhealthy especially when it’s a conflict as large as this one. I am wondering if we will come out of this seeing eye to virtual eye. With true understanding. I hope so.

            “Did you miss the part where she attacked NarcAngel and cb?
            Did you miss the temper tantrums, projection, deflection, blame shifting, denial, the false accusations or the assumptions she made?”

            These are your interpretations and readings of the things that have been said by your dialogue partners. These are not facts, K. I probably ‘missed’ a blame shift when I didn’t perceive it to be one. Just because you say something is shifted blame, it isn’t necessary true, K.

            If HG pipes up and says K is right or K is wrong the storm would be over. It would be the voice of power that could end the argument in an instant. Is there only HG ‘s verdict you could accept though?

            You may have erred in your analyses and interpretations. It is possible for you to err, you’re not Jesus. Neither am I. Especially MP tried to explain where you misunderstood her in a concise way. The bit about tattle tales – I got it the first time round that it wasn’t an insult directed at you and I understood it even better the second time around. I understand also that the statement could be misunderstood. So did MP and corrected herself. But that wasn’t enough for you though – you don’t trust that and throw in more analysis.

            Why did you do that, why couldn’t you take MPs word for it that it wasn’t an insult. Let’s stick with this example and not throw in loads more of them. If I were in your mode of argument I would probably say that you’re deflecting with the snippet I’ve quoted above. But I’m not doing that – except to dismiss this possibility as a way of mirroring your strategy.

            K, I used to analyse and throw in “facts” too when faced with my narc. It was a way of making the word salad go away. Basically I won a lot of the time. My narc wasn’t as verbal or intelligent as me. Yeah, I could beat him in an argument – meant he stopped arguing with me. He found other ways of manipulation though.

            “Rather than play the victim card, it would have been healthier if she simply clarified herself instead of deflecting, which is stonewalling BTW.”

            MP tried to do just that : clarify things.

            Right now I don’t understand why you can’t see that you have truly misunderstood MP. And that you then misunderstood her attempt at clarification.

            You saw manipulation where there was none. That you then throw in narc analysis as fact is highly confusing. It is a strategy to WIN an argument – not to resolve it.

            From my perspective you gave the impression that you wanted to win and not resolve (you admitted too that you enjoyed superiority) and now it seems you want to be right and not entertain the possibility that your analyses were wrong. Or that there could be different analyses – e. g. mine, that could be as valid as yours.

            If in conflict, analysing people is aggressive, K.

            I have done this to my narc. I’m not so sorry that I did it now because when I learnt how to have constructive conflicts I also learnt he was not interested in having healthy ones.

            He created conflict for the sake of conflict. For fuel. I gave him fuel and he gave me the illusion that I was better at arguing than he was. Big deal. Who was well fuelled at the end of the day.

            With us here on the blog it’s different, MP and WokeAF don’t want fuel, they are, like you, here to exchange views. They even accepted some of your analyses – for the sake of peace, also because they are insecure and think you must be right because you’re clever and truly educated about narcissism, K.

            Emotionally MP and WokeAF do not accept your analyses as can be seen in this thread now I’m here to present yet a different version of what went on.

            I think you needed to win K, and I think you felt under attack – not sure why – perhaps because you’re not used to it that people challenge your analysis – and if it was a mode of survival for you – as it used to be for me – then it’s very difficult challenge you.

            But you may challenge me – because I don’t want a fight – I want to try to really resolve this because I recognise a “sister” here.

            My personal investment is that I recognise my old beat the narc mode in your strategies. And it took me a while too, to understand and accept what I was doing. I thought I was merely stating facts….

          39. K says:

            Evidence of my mistakes?
            Evidence of MP clarifying things?

          40. WokeAF says:

            K : I also perceived this as you wanting to win.
            I stated numerous Times that that was not my desire .

            One comment as Evidence that led to my perception:

            K on July 26, 2019 at 15:32
            -“I will re-read everything again and you can’t have a fair fight when people fight unfairly-“

            For myself it was never a fight .

          41. WokeAF says:


            Can you clarify these conflicting statements and where you stand on them now

            July 26, 2019 at 18:21
            Wow! Look who’s talking; The Queen of Victimhood, cheap shots and lies.
            Evidence of my lies?
            1. If I lied, it would be helpful if you could point it out to me and I will own it.
            2. You and WAF tossed around “tattletale asshole” which was unfair because you rewrote my comment to WAF, painting yourself as the victim and me as the attacker, which was incorrect.
            3. It wasn’t going anywhere because you were too busy playing the victim card and deflecting.
            4. I made observations and responded with aggressive and harsh comments.

            (Please see #4)

            K on July 31, 2019 at 17:31
            Pointing out facts isn’t haughty or aggressive

          42. LC says:


            “I think it’s hilarious that now we are still debating on the morals of birth control lol 😆
            But I’m enjoying it right now from an impartial view because I have spoken my piece and I will not allow myself to get a motional he involved because it’s stupid”

            The “mistake” you 3 made, or what got you in the mud was that you didn’t distinguish between conflicts that are necessary for the story and conflicts that the characters have with one another due to their psychological make up.

            (1) K says teenagers are entitled to their autonomy (even if parents don’t like it).

            (2) K says a parent ought to prevent a teenager from selling her body.

            There you go. This is the thing that we can probably all agree on. Probably even MP. It’s the bottom line.

            These two things can’t be resolved with one another.

            If you defend statement (1) it is a challenge of statement (2) and vice versa. This is an ethical conundrum at the heart of the story. When debating what’s the right course of action for any character we need to bear in mind that this cannot be resolved without breaching (1) or (2).

            Had you worked this out in your thread you would never have gotten in this mess, I swear. You couldn’t work it out because there wasn’t a lot of LT, not even on K”s part if I may be so frank.

            The three of you got in this mess because you identified with certain characters more than with others.

            As I wrote before, this is totally intended by the creators. It is moves such as these that get us hooked to a series in the first place.

            Identifying with characters is the “normal” way of watching films btw nothing wrong with it.

          43. HG Tudor says:

            Logic blast.

          44. WokeAF says:

            Ha! Nice JOB LC !!

            Alright I’m out! Love it.

            Actually I got in this mess because I don’t believe in morals lol

            And because I took up for MP and shit went sideways

            But I’m satisfied with this !!

          45. MommyPino says:

            Ha! Logic blast indeed! And you’re right LC, I do agree with both statements. 😊

          46. WokeAF says:

            mommypino /-

            “K if you apologize to WokeAF I will not argue with you anymore. Forget about me. I really think that you owe her an apology. She didn’t do anything to deserve that name”

            This isn’t healthy . I truly appreciate the sentiment 💕
            But this could construed as you martrying yourself.

            I am perfectly capable of sorting out any differences K and I have experienced on my own.

            Additionally I’m not feeling sorry for myself and I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me because my little feelings got hurt for a minute.

            Asking K if she would apologize because I would like to see if she want something and make peace with me so we can move forward . in one way I did appreciate her harshness with me because it helped me achieve an insight .
            But I do feel that she was incorrect in your assessment of me as a. Spineless victim and an idiot , and I would like to see if she is willing to extend an olive branch and apologize for her assumption on my whole character based on a short online blog debate.

            Thank you MP for the love tho.

          47. MommyPino says:

            Noted. 💕

          48. WokeAF says:

            I am staying involved (for now) also I’m The interest of truth. Peace without truth is blissful ignorance.
            I’m back in my usual disposition of being , as Twikighy so aptly out it, in the eye of the hurricane , instead of BEING the hurricane .

            I can see objectively again , I can feel the feels, but I’m grounded enough again to know which are mine.
            If I feel myself destabilizing I will dip out.

            I’d like to gently assist MP away from the victim stance, and assist in bringing unity.

          49. MommyPino says:

            “I’d like to gently assist MP away from the victim stance, and assist in bringing unity.”

            What does this mean?

          50. WokeAF says:

            When I understood you perceiving yourself as being ganged up on, i’ll let you know that I understood your perception, but I could’ve stepped in and gently explained to you , that you weren’t being ganged up on

            Or like just now when I said don’t martyr yourself for an apology for me, Martyring is something a codependent might do -it also might be part of a victim mentality.
            I can express that sort of thing to you without attacking you .

            That’s along the lines of what I meant .

            Assist in bringing unity – I was hoping to have K realize what she was doing and bring resolution between the two of you .
            I don’t think I’m gonna be able to do it though 🤷‍♀️

          51. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF. I am here to learn. But I’m not here to be attacked. If you can guide me with respect and dignity then yes I will listen to you. 💕

            Regarding asking K to apologize to you. It wasn’t martyrdom. This was my thought process and now I think that my thought process was off. Please correct me if my memory is wrong on these because my memory is far from perfect. I have been seeing your posts after I got back home here in Cali where you were apologizing profusely and guilt-ridden. You have also stated in a post that you missed work and sleep because of this. You have also mentioned to K while you were thanking her for the harsh comments by her that you are still ‘rattled’ by the spineless comment and reading that I thought that it was an opportunity for K to apologize to you but she missed that opportunity. I would apologize in a heartbeat if someone tells me that my word or words rattled her. You have been talking to Twilight and also mentioned the spineless comment I believe. I personally believe that it is something that K needs to address to you. I think that it is important.
            As for me saying that I will not argue with her if she apologizes to you, that is because I think that she has more anger towards me than she has with you. I thought that it is easier for her to apologize to you for calling you names than for calling me a liar and manipulative. She did apologize to me for the ‘misunderstanding’ which I am including in the comment that I am currently composing for her. But I don’t think that she will apologize that she said that I am a liar and manipulative. I think that she really believes it. So I have already accepted that I might never get her to apologize and retract what she said about me but at least apologize to you and that is enough to make me happy and move on. I didn’t see it as martyrdom because it’s not like I was expecting her to apologize to me. It was more of a message from me that if she apologizes to you, I would consider that as a resolution.

            But with my previous posts when I was out of the country I have recognized the victim mentality in me such as when I typed my fruit salad comment about spending time typing a response instead of spending time with my family. But I don’t think that I have a default victim mentality. I think that it sneaks in sometimes when I am frustrated or angry though and I recognize that it needs work along with bad habits that I wasn’t aware of such as blame shifting. I was raised by a single mom narcissist so I have acquired a lot of unhealthy habits from her that I am trying to fix now so I can be a better model for my kids.

          52. WokeAF says:

            fruit salad!! 😂 😂

            I understood your intention.
            Part of this whole thing was me realizing something about myself in my life when I have gone into victim mentality without realizing it .
            I was raised by great parents. I picked it up because of the challenges I face having an autistic child as a single mom, and feeling like circumstances were heavy against me .
            It’s just a thing I’ve been working on .
            I definitely wasn’t saying that you have a victim mentality. I only meant if I perceive that you’re slipping into one I could point it out In an empathic fashion, if it’s something you want to work on. And of course you’re welcome to do the same for me


          53. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, haha yes fruit salad!!😂🤣

            I would love that. Let’s do that in an empathic and sisterly manner. 👍😊

          54. K says:

            1. “But I’m not here to be attacked.” (You were not being attacked. Read: The Victim’s Cloak)
            2. “Regarding asking K to apologize to you. It wasn’t martyrdom.” (mid-range good guy facade in action)
            3. “I thought that it was an opportunity for K to apologize to you” (control and gas lighting)
            4. As for me saying that I will not argue with her if she apologizes to you, that is because I think that she has more anger towards me than she has with you. (control and assumption. I am not angry; I am matter-of-fact)
            5. “But I don’t think that she will apologize that she said that I am a liar and manipulative.” (truth: you are a liar and you are manipulative)

          55. LC says:


            “I was raised by great parents.”

            This is slightly off topic and then again it isn’t because of the general theme of BBL: Could it be that this is not true?

            I was surprised that you state this here especially because you say that you are a member of AA.

            I know a bit about alcoholism – my ex husband was not only a narc but also an alcoholic. I have yet to meet an alcoholic who had great parents… Evidently there are always exceptions to the rule….

            I doff my pants to you that you’re dry and are intending to stay that way. It’s so hard to do and I admire all that have the courage to do it. You have my full admiration.

          56. MommyPino says:

            I second that LC. And I admire WokeAF ability to have humor in the midst of stress. She also mentioned having an autistic child as a single mom, that is a lot of work! My cousin has an autistic son and her husband helps her a lot but it is still a lot of hard work and stress. I can only imagine what it must be like to do all of that alone. And she also has another child too. It takes a lot of strength to tackle all of that.

          57. WokeAF says:

            If you want to go through the thread I didn’t mention a little bit about my parents in it as an example as to how we never know what one “should”do

            They were amazing parents but they totally fucked up when I was 16 .
            And the fuck up every lasted until I was about 20 .
            It impacted me enough to develop some very bad habits in relationship .
            I was a non-drinker until my late 30s and I only drank for about five . I was a binge drinker whenever I could get rid of the kids I will get hammered sometimes for a whole weekend
            It was a way to check out of reality
            – and also to numb myself ** because I had gone through an awakening a couple years before that and I was also having trouble dealing with that.

            My father is an alcoholic but I believe these were kept in very quiet undertones in the family at least until I was 16. I was not aware of it at least , Not consciously, until my mother left .
            If there is a genetic predisposition to addiction I probably have it obviously

            My childhood it was safe, nurturing, encouraging, and loving . Both parents were teachers as were my grandparents . I understood how to raise a child and they did it well. It was no abuse in the home and it was very rare that anyone even yelled at each other . A lot of emotional maturity .
            I’ll write more later maybe

          58. WokeAF says:

            LC – Quiet undertones of alcoholism and codependency In my family unit I should add .
            I guess my dad kept the alcoholism relatively in check to The point that I didn’t know about it until I was 16
            Then as I said my world blew apart .
            I went from one world to a totally opposite world .

            I know when I’m at AA, I’ve heard a lot about abuse in the family

            It’s horrifying. And of course I “feel”for them ( 😆)

            I’m one of the lucky ones man I’m telling you. I was also only actually abusing alcohol for about five years because I became cognizant that I had developed a dependency and sought help .

            I have an addictive personality. Cigarettes ,food, back in the day I was a stoner , SEX, beer etc

            A lot of it had to do w numbing anxiety .
            I’m very sensitive to the energy around me , to the people around me, to stress ,

            Ok that’s enough for now

          59. WokeAF says:

            I love that you talk to your husband about this!
            I have a feeling we won’t even need a coat since both of us are now becoming more aware of it

            But how about
            *vm (?)

            Lol the ? So that it’s not perceived as an attack but it question

          60. MommyPino says:

            Haha *vm(?) is great idea. It’s low-key and the (?) makes it polite lol.

        3. WokeAF says:


          I’d also like clarification on what you meant by this ;

          K on July 25, 2019 at 17:41
          WAF only has herself to blame for her own idiocy. The Reader knows what you both are and that’s what really counts. It’s very obvious in your comments.

          (What were you implying the Reader knows? What were you suggesting that I am? You hadn’t implied that MP was an idiot, so when you say the Reader knows what we “both are” , what are you saying ?)


      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        K. Then, Madeline is in a double bind. According to the law, she is responsible for her daughter unless her daughter has legally sued for independent status, I would think. So, if her daughter goes astray, the parents are to blame, yet when the daughter needs food clothing and shelter, her family is responsible, whether it is from living with her father or her mother. She gets to have it both ways? If the daughter does become pregnant, or has a breakdown from selling herself via mass media, after the fallout, it is probably the parents that will help to support her, unless she goes on welfare or whatever social services calls it. And according to the show and writing and casting, I do not perceive this teen as the brightest of teens. And in the U.S. where I live, the state of Missouri has only one abortion clinic left, and it is being challenged to be closed down. I do not think it is a small issue for a mother to want to find out what her daughter, under her legal responsibility, is up to sexually, especially when the daughter is as confused as this one to sell her body for a good cause, as she says. And, more importantly, I do not see that Madeline is a bad mother that would influence her daughter worse than a stranger from the street, and against her daughter’s best interest and thereby should not be a guiding factor in her daughter’s life. And it was the mother at end, anyway, that preventing her daughter from making an ill formed decision, ill-formed the way I understand this life, to sell her body publicly on the internet. And Bonnie is especially not a good role for the teen, as Bonnie herself would admit, on how to judge a mother-father-daughter-dynamic of another family, and how to know when a certain teen is sexually responsible, as Bonnie was sexually active at 13 years old, and she also fought off the thought to suffocate and kill her own mother, over their family dynamic, and then telling her own husband that she never really loved him, as well. And also telling her own father that he did not protect her. Madeline wants to protect her own teen daughter. I applaud her.

        1. K says:

          Abby is an adult who lives with her father so Madeline has no legal responsibility or control whatsoever.

      3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        K. If someone asks for a ride for a reason or location or facility that the driver is uncomfortable with: The potential driver has a right to say: NO, I am not the one to be involved in this. Even Uber drivers have the right to say: NO. There is no law forcing someone to drive someone to a destination, especially if the destination crosses some boundary with the driver, and even if it does not cross any boundary. No: is a very important word, I find, despite its few letters, and it is often not used enough. Bonnie chose to say: Yes.

        1. K says:

          Abby has the right to go to:

          1. the supermarket
          2. the movies
          3. Europe
          4. her friends house
          5. the mall

          And nobody can control her movements or whereabouts or has any say in the matter.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            K. Actually, and ironically, after all this discussion about her, Abby is my absolute least favorite character on the series. I would not mind in the least if she did go far away. There would be no tears in my eyes, at all. In fact, I would pay for the Uber, if I had the spare change on me at the time, to take her to the nearest airport or to the nearest spaceship to go to another planet in a galaxy far, far away. Now, Ziggy, that is another story, altogether. An absolute delight. And, a series that he stars in named, I believe, Young Sheldon, is on my list to watch, whenever I have the opportunity. But, HG Tudor`s political treatises are on my schedule, next. I can only say Au Revoir, to Abby, and I would only ask her to not make it too soon, before we meet again.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Put Bonnie in the Uber also, zzzzzzzzz.

          3. K says:

            ha ha ha…no kidding.

          4. Twilight says:

            Bonnie is boring, I am disappointed ☹️.

            I understand why she could be seen as a Contagion…..

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Her being boring was Nothing to do with being a contagion

          6. Twilight says:

            I believe they did a piss poor job with showing the traits, I would not call her a Contagion yet understand why she would be seen as one.

          7. LC says:


            I’m baffled by your comments! Abigail can also date a totally toxic person, she can act like a rape victim and become one. All granted. Its her right to do that.

            But that’s not the issue here. The issue is, will a caring mother prevent her from having to go through this?

            I hope your answer is : yes.

            So, logically speaking: how do you recognise a caring mother?

            You identify her because she has achieved exactly this.

            The story requires that the mother of a teenager be faced with a massive challenge.

            And Madeline rises to it.

            If the story didn’t include the toxic project, we would be looking at Madeline with different eyes. But the story does include it.

            Abigail also knows it’s off herself, or she would not have to keep it secret!

          8. Twilight says:


            When your children are older will you still have this same out look for them?

          9. MommyPino says:

            K, if Abby was a minor, Abby doesn’t have the right to:

            Drink alcohol
            Enter a legally binding contract
            Buy a car
            Rent an apartment without an adult co-signer
            Undergo medical treatment without permission from guardian (subject to exceptions)

          10. K says:

            What can I do at age 16?
            When you are 16 you are allowed to:

            Get married or register a civil partnership with consent
            Drive a moped or invalid carriage
            You can consent to sexual activity with others aged 16 and over
            Drink wine/beer with a meal if accompanied by someone over 18
            Get a National Insurance number
            Join a trade union
            Work full-time if you have left school
            Be paid national minimum wage for 16/17 year olds
            Join the Armed Forces with parental consent
            Change name by deed poll
            Leave home with or without parental consent
            In certain circumstances you must pay for prescriptions, dental treatment and eye tests
            Choose a GP
            Consent to medical treatment
            Buy premium bonds
            Pilot a glider
            Buy a lottery ticket
            Register as a blood donor, but you won’t be called to give blood until you’re 17
            Apply for a passport without parental consent


          11. WokeAF says:

            If anyone feels like listing off the rights of a 16-year-old in Canada I’d appreciate it because even I’m not clear on that and I’m too lazy to find them all out
            I don’t know how you guys pull this shit up so fast

            Even the drinking age changes from province to province out here .

          12. Dearest, Dearest, Dearest HG: Yes! Put Bonnie on the Uber well. Yes! I say so!!!! So many think she is the greatest thing since, whatever. And you are a male, so it is not my opinion regarding her,` only` because I am a female. Whew! Thank you.

          13. WokeAF says:

            HG in the beginning I felt we saw some of Bonnie’s usual self which I related to , but she became a downer & a pain in the ass due to the weight of the Lie.
            I’m wondering – would u consider Bonnie boring bc she wouldnt provide much fuel?
            I know why other people would see her as boring , but I’m wondering about you in particular

          14. HG Tudor says:

            She is boring because she is so insipid, drained and just drifts along.

          15. WokeAF says:

            Ok so not for any special narcissistic reason then lol

        2. K says:

          I really loved Ziggy too. My least favorite was Bonnie and I was neutral on Abby and Young Sheldon is one of my favorite new shows.

  12. alexissmith2016 says:

    I’ve never watched this sort of TV. It’s been a really interesting project. I hope for more. and more time to study them properly.

  13. alexissmith2016 says:

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts LC. I really do enjoy reading how others perceive each of the characters. I wish I had the time to provide an analysis. The views of others do most definitely give me cause for thought. It is TV and I wish I could interact with the characters as I’m sure I would have a completely different view.

    My favorite character is most definitely Renata without a doubt. But in real life, I would imagine that not to be the case at all. Not at all! Maybe in veeeeeerrryyyy small doses. An outer circle friend. Bonnie, Celeste and Jane are definitely people I’d have long term friendships with. I’d probably hang out with MMM for the occasional evening, but keep my distance.

    1. LC says:

      Hi Alexis, my fav characters are Jane and Ziggy – I adore the way she engages with him!

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Ah as a mother there is absolutely no doubt at all she is 100% up there!

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Celeste is very loving too but doesn’t protect her boys enough. But. She believes she has and that they know nothing of their fathers behaviour and that only becomes apparent once she finds out one of them is a bully

      3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        LC and Alexis: Ziggy was my favorite character. Also, I loved his awkward rendition of the song: Papa was a rolling stone as well: ` Papa Was a Rollin’ Stone`

        `It was the third of September
        That day I’ll always remember, yes I will
        ‘Cause that was the day that my daddy died
        I never got a chance to see him
        Never heard nothin’ but bad things about him
        Momma I’m depending on you to tell me the truth
        Momma just hung her head and said, son
        Papa was a rolling stone
        Wherever he laid his hat was his home
        And when he died, all he left us was alone
        Papa was a rolling stone (my son, yeah)
        Wherever he laid his hat was his home
        And when he died, all he left us was alone` ~~The Temptations.

    2. WokeAF says:

      Bonnie would be my bestie
      MMM would be a good friend but she’d exhaust me so, in short doses

  14. Presque Vu says:

    I’m really looking forward to your analysis HG! In the meanwhile my attention has been elsewhere.

    I have a question if I may?
    I’m currently in the grips of Homeland Series 3 episode 9 I think…. I think Saul Berenson’s character is great -I find his nature extremely interesting – is he a narc though? I’m confused because he seems to have empathic traits with Carrie and he loves his wife etc but sometimes I see ‘that look’. But then he is the head of the CIA and I guess it’s the name of the game.
    Also as part of the CIA they call their informants appliances which I found interesting.
    It’s a great series i’m totally addicted.

    P.S Aww my sad avatar

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have not watched enough of Homeland to make any assessment.

    2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Presqu: I only heard the CIA call them sources and contacts in movies and books, not once appliances. I have to keep my eyes and ears open in the future to catch the CIA call them appliances. I do enjoy the espionage genre in films and novels. In the Homeland series, the CIA calls them appliances? Do you know if the show writers are Americans?

      1. Presque Vu says:

        Hi PSE, it’s interesting isn’t it.
        They also call them assets. Each informer is an asset. They value their assets – I guess like HG does.
        I have no idea if the show writers are American but it’s brilliant. I love shows like this too. I like working it all out, using my brain, analysing. I use what I’ve learned here, what I intuitively feel inside and enjoy the ride. Currently on Series 4 episode 3.. you should watch it PSE if you like espionage stuff.

        1. Presque: Yes: I have heard them called assets, plenty of times! Definitely, I should watch it! Thank you. I even like the somber stuff, like the Sandbaggers. And the dry stuff like Mr. Palfrey of Westminster. I loved MI5 (nearly perfect) and there was more action. Homeland sounds like a combination of the somber and action. Thank you. I never meet anyone that like the espionage genre. I find it fascinating. I last read: Red Sparrow. the Book. The movie is a tragedy. They totally missed it in every way. So sad. How can they miss something so much when it is al spelled out for them? It is because fewer and fewer people read books and they can do whatever they want when they buy the script and in general they will not be held accountable. Boo! I say to the movie Red Sparrow: . Boooo!

  15. Chihuahuamum says:

    Omg im on pins and needles eek 🤣😲

  16. K says:

    Can’t wait! This was great and I had a blast. Thank you.

  17. Eva says:

    Before that I must watch the Season 2 finale. I cannot believe it is over already.

  18. KellyD says:

    I didn’t contribute very much because I haven’t had enough education yet, but I am excited to see the results. Bring it, HG!

  19. lisk says:

    I love this anticipation thing that you do, HG.

    Naturally, you are well versed in it.

  20. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Too excited for this HG!

    If I at least get whether they’re a narc or an empath I’ll be satisfied, some it’s difficult to ascertain which school/cadre because we don’t see enough of their fuel matrix.

    Ed – either an empath or empathic traits
    MMM – mid ranger/ somatic/ angel with a dirty face. If she is an SE then I already despise myself
    Renata – upper lesser elite
    Gordon – narc, not sure what type
    Bonnie – contagion
    Nathan – high narc traits (Bonnie, an empath is not addicted to him)
    Perry – upper lesser or lower greater elite
    Celeste – SE with an equal distribution of all cadres
    Perry’s mum – greater possibly cerebral
    Jane – standard empath fairly equal distribution of all cadres

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Grrr you’re so annoying! But helping me draw the conclusion about the whole cat and mouse game lol.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I know you don’t really live in an LU1 or MK postcode, you’re far too important! But probably tired of my fuel – sigh! An N is an N is an N.

        Anyway, forget all of that! I shall still enjoy reading the results and any new articles regardless. 💋🙏😂

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          It’s okay, I know it’s because I got 10/10. I can live without the accolades.
          I’m just like that

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Even though I know it fuels you. I kind of like hating you and like liking you. And that makes me hate you and like you.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            You know that was all said tongue in cheek! I’m just very hopeful that I can tell the difference between a narc and an empath!

    2. WokeAF says:

      If Bonnie is a contagion I will understand life a little better

  21. WokeAF says:

    Omg omg omg I’m so excited

    1. LC says:

      This IS exciting! I bingewatched the entire first series last night, based on that my vote is:

      Celeste: CoD empath, def. NOT a super empath because the therapist had to confront her with great effort while she denied, self-blamed and made excuses. She had the wits to seek help but only after years of abuse. Not recognizing abuse as abuse or rationalizing abuse is typical for CoD behaviour. Her clinging to the scraps of Perry’s fatherly input is too. Perry‘s parenting is questionable to say the least, he is hardly available, he is unreliable, comes and goes as he pleases, his signature gesture of affection is burping and playing the monster. He allows and encourages the kids to attack their mother with play guns and they laugh it all away as ever so funny – boundaries are crossed from ok to not ok anymore – as can be seen also in the flashback where Perry suddenly attacks Celeste with bricks. His questionable parenting and the impact his abuse of the mother has on the children has to be pointed out by the therapist. To the outside she projects an image of the perfect family. There is a scene where she undresses for Perry via skype while he is in a hotel clearly with another woman, one can see her for a brief moment. She doesn’t seem to see the obvious or chooses to ignore it or is in denial. She also has copious amounts of self-awareness despite the denial, but she cannot put it to constructive use because she self-blames – until the therapist‘s intervention. I am impressed with how well the scriptwriters portray CoD life and that they chose a highly capable and successful woman as an example – because there is this idea around that CoD are somewhat low class losers….

      Perry: Upper lesser narcissist; narcissist because he ‚owns’ Celeste, isolates her, has no boundary recognition. Lesser because he uses physical violence, upper because he is intelligent. I do not think he is self aware as regards his narcissism. There is a scene in which he asks Celeste to help him with his demons shortly before he dies, and declares he can change which seems typical of a midranger. But it is the aspect of physical violence that made me go for ULN.

      Jane: Empath (with PTSD). I can hardly see a sign of narcissism (therefore not super empath). Highly empathic mother, in wonderful contact with her son, apologizes after she has assaulted Renata in distress even though Renata stigmatizes her son without evidence. Even though she trusts her son Ziggy she is willing to consider the teacher‘s perspective that Ziggy might be abusive. She asks a professional to get an outside view. When she gets the good results she keeps these to herself and does not make a song and dance about it ( as Renata would have). When she realises Ziggy has info on what is really going on she finds a way of extracting the info without making him feel he is betraying his friend but understand that he had to do so (again very empathic mothering).

      Renata: Upper midrange matrinarc. The party for Amabella is all about the mother, not the child, Amabella is an extension of Renata. There is not a single scene where there is affection between mother and child. Compare this to Jane‘s interaction with Ziggy. Renata makes the bullying incident a me-performance at school, jumps to conclusions, blames people as she sees fit, organizes a herd of parent lieutenants. She thinks about getting a psychologist for Amabella which would have been the right thing to do but didn‘t follow up on the idea , it is suggested by the way she talks about therapists that this would have made her and her daughter look weak. Looks for revenge in trying to stop the puppet show. Thinks all the other mothers envy her ( when they actually don‘t).

      Madeline: Super empath or normal with evident narcissistic and empathic traits. (I don’t quite understand the difference between the too: SE and narcissistic but not a narcissist). She does seem to have instinctive emotional empathy since she immediately sees how Renata is wrong in skape-goating Ziggy without understanding the situation so that would probably suggest SE). She is warm with her own children, takes her role as mother very seriously, her problem is that she defines herself to some extent via her motherhood which makes it tricky for her children, but she realised this was a problem and looked for an occupation elsewhere. Both her girls have a good relationship with her, both daughters are self-confident but not ego-monsters, and she doesn‘t favour one over the other, even respects Abigail‘s wish to live with her father. Her narcissistic streak comes to the fore when she has the affair, but after the Elvis night she is clearly consumed with guilt. She does not display the behaviour of an entitled narcissist. It is Madeline who can dissuade Abigail from selling her body (not her father), and the relationship between mother and daughter improves tremendously after this episode, when Madeline confesses not to be perfect.

      Ed: After season 1 (all I have watched so far) I would have said also normal with narcissistic traits and empathic ones. He constantly whinges for more attention (but then Madeline cheated in him, so he has reason, and she IS obsessed with her ex somewhat), but then he is also keen on getting the dinner between the four parents onto a constructive track. Has a good relationship with both girls, also his step-daughter. Yep, I‘d say he‘s normal.

      Bonnie: super empath. Tolerates Nathan, is very empathic with all of the children, she is also the one who pushes Perry…

      Nathan: MRN. Reasons: His constant bad-mouthing of Madeline, uses projection against Ed. Says he’s aggressive, when in fact he is the passive aggressive one himself. Not that interested in Abigail, needs to be motivated by Bonnie.

      Renata‘s partner I am not sure about, can‘t say I have sussed him after season 1. He also has no warm relationship with poor Amabella.

      Looking forward to series 2…

      The whole series reminds me of Broadchurch, actually. That would also be a cool series to Tudorscope!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I just started watching Broadchurch recently but have not revisited it owing to other commitments.

        1. AnneB says:

          I am reading the comments here out of curiosity and interest because of comments referring to this thread in more recent articles. This is just in reaction to your mention of Broadchurch H.G, which obviously I noticed during my scrolling. I have been re-watching that recently. Season 1 is excellent in my opinion, and icing on the cake as I love David Tennant. To avoid ‘spoilers’ in case you did not get around to finishing the series, will just say that I think that the main detective characters – David Tennant and Olivier Coleman – are empaths in accordance with your classifications, actually Tennant may be a normal, Coleman is an empath. The only narcissist that I am certain of is the female reporter who comes from London (?) to report on the murder – she sweet talks the Broadchurch residents, using cognitive empathy, into trusting her then because she lacks empathy exploits the vulnerable for her own purposes (to gain power/feel powerful via furthering her career). The Australian hotel manager displayed some Narc traits but I couldn’t really peg her as not enough info. Not sure re the offender at this stage of re-watch. I may ask you your expert opinion on that in the future when I have fully re-watched. In case you didn’t finish it, I better only say that the end reveal is a real clanger! (for me it came out of left field but I recall that on reviewing years ago there were clues and I am looking out for them during this re-watch).

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Hello Anne B, thank you for not providing any spoilers. My viewing of this series, excellent as it is, was interrupted, so I have not formed any firm views so far, although I am inclined to agree with the assessment of the journalist.

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        You make some excellent points LC. Really good points!

        I think perhaps I need to go back and watch again. I missed the bit where perry is in the hotel room and there was another woman there.

        You also make some good points about MMM and I’m wondering whether I have considered her too harshly.

        She reminds me of a woman I know who tried to befriend me, this was fairly soon after the cessation of my own N experience.

        This woman in RL was 100% angel with a dirty face. And tried to befriend me very quickly and would stick up for others if her friends if they needed it. She was loyal to her friends but not her husband always busybodying in others business and neglecting her family. She attempted to build a rapport with me very quickly, it was very forced and I rejected it (in a nice gentle way though). You don’t see so much of this with her and Jane its tv but I got the same kind of sense that Jane the empath new to the area was glad of the friendship.

        To me the relationship with her kids seems all about her still rather than truly caring for what they want. The rl person I know would showcase her kids, force them into hobbies (as young children) which they clearly didn’t enjoy, but she wanted the credit for how great and special and different they were.

        Perhaps I have misjudged MMM, I just don’t see any true empathy. But your comments are definitely making me want to take another look.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Would an SE use kids as pawns though? Yes she was standing up for ziggy I get that, but she was hurting a lot of other innocent children in the process. Her motive seemed far more about hurting Renata than helping ziggy.

          I certainly rally round and get support from others when I’m entering a bitch off. But not to someone else’s detriment.

          But she did end the affair. I’m not entirely sure how into sex she really is?

          I can’t wait for the master!

          1. WokeAF says:

            She was so caught up in defending Ziggy she dimmer her empathy for Amabella. She may not have even considered Amabella at all because she was so focussed on Ziggy , and on putting Renata in her place

            She didn’t even stop to think really because Renata’s own daughter pointed at Ziggy and said that he hurt her.

            Madeline would not have invited that child to a birthday party if the same thing had happened to her daughter I think .

            She was just empathically identifying with Jane and Ziggy and dimming her empathy for Amabella I figure

        2. WokeAF says:

          If MMM is an narc I will understand a friend I have better

          1. LC says:

            I’m also looking forward so so so much to the master analysis!!! I’ve finished season 2 now and have some corrections and additions for my take on the show:

            Madeline: I am sticking with empathic/ normal with both strong empathic and strong narcissistic traits, not least because of the way her friendships play out (she is truly supportive and cares); she has poor boundaries, that’s true, especially when she steamrollers Jane into friendship, but that is not to Jane’s detriment. That scene is expository and serves to highlight her narcissistic traits, and as viewers I think we are conned into thinking that she is a narc, only to discover later that she is not. Madeline is able to regret her mistakes. As an empath you can use a kid as a pawn for sure, and also realise later that you did so and regret that you did it. Being empathic does not mean that you are perfect and always good (this is the true message that the Madeline character – as main character – serves to purport I think).

            Madeline also understands Bonnie’s distress a lot better when it’s pointed out to her (=activated empathy); it seems that she kind of picks the things she is empathic and passionate about, while her narcissistic and/or controlling traits run away with her sometimes. She has not exactly a high degree of self-awareness; compared, for example, with Celeste. There is this wonderful scene between Madeline and Abigail, when Madeline talks about couple’s therapy. Abigail is very bemused when Madeline relates the obvious as true therapeutic insight: that she is over anxious with Abigail because she herself did not go to college. (Abigail must be an junior empath on the road to intergalactical CoD empathy, wanting to sell her virginity for a political cause….but her resolute mother is able to stop her, not least because of the good (as in securely attached) relationship they have.)

            Watching season 2 I was wondering if Madeline might actually be somewhat co-dependent because she did not leave her narc ex (controlling behaviour and wanting to fix everything to an excessive degree is so so typical for CoDs), and she does not leave Ed either, even though he is pretty arseholy to her for a long time while he is getting over his disappointment and before he suddenly decides that everything is alright again. She could have drawn the line but doesn’t, she truly wants to make it work and truly regrets. She is too strong for a CoD though, that’s why I think SE, or normal with both empathic and narcissistic traits.

            Ed is still not a narc; just a dick sometimes.

            Mary Louise: seems to be a no brainer, a total control freak and MMRN. She blame shifts (the worst instance is that she blames little Perry for his brother’s death that she herself caused – this is not denied by her in court). This scene also fixes it for me that she is not a greater. A greater matrinarc might have been able to deflect and lie, and might have made it impossible for Celeste to pull her mother in law off the pedestal. Typical for MRNs: the constant double bind messages along the lines of “I like you very much but you remind me of a horrible person I know”. Meryl Streep does such a good job in being creepy… it’s haunting to feel like being a matrinarc’s child again simply from hearing her talk… (My narc-grandmother actually blamed me for my matrinarcal mother’s death, also a road accident…I kind of thought this was unusual but apparently not and is from the matrinarc’s textbook).

            I was wondering a bit about Renata who is portrayed as a lot more likeable in the second season (more likable also than Mary Louise). However I think UMR is still right. Again it’s a show-off birthday party she organises with the scraps of her estate; one might think the scene in which she is moved by seeing Amabella dance displays some motherly love, but again, she sees an extension or child version of herself (that was once wronged); all she cares about is her loss of societal standing. Again there is no scene which shows a mother-daughter bond. When Renata suggests to take Amabella on an outing this is because she doesn’t want to lose out on the “fun” that the other mothers are having because their kids were banned from school for three days for hitting a known school bully. Of course Amabella is a “child genius” and Renata feels entitled to make the school rules. The existing rules do not apply to her though. When she thinks she can take Amabella out of school because the other kids are having fun, she can. When the ridiculously clad child psychologist (she has to operate in disguise because poor Anabella is not to think she has a problem although she herself knows she does) reveals that her anxiety has something to do with both school and the parents, Renata quickly attacks the school – – – and blames the father. Renata’s narcissism prevents her from taking a look at her own relationship to the child. When looking at the friendships she has, they also seem shallow; the others are bound to Renata because of the “big little lie” they need to protect; the lie that Perry fell of the stairs. We see a lot of narcissistic rage; what Renata is most angry about is that Gordon betrays her with a NANNY, the betrayal itself, or the fact he actually pays the nanny for sex is not an issue…When she meets Mary Louise for tea, we see a bit of narc on narc action.

            Gordon, Renata’s hubby seems to be a narc as well. There is the fraud he is involved in, and then he kind of prostitutes the nanny! Midrange I think, there is no Macchiavellism on display. Renata’s and Gordon’s relationship works as long as they can project the image of successful high achieving couple. When the basis for that is missing – money – their relationship implodes.

            Bonnie’s contagion SE-status is more than confirmed in season 2, her mother is not a narc but clearly disordered; she is suffering from what looks like bouts of psychosis. That’s of course also a LOCE that makes one tolerant of highly narcissistic people such as Nathan. I think Nathan is a narc, he TRIES his best at copying empathic behaviour (getting the mum in when the daughter has problems) but fails miserably because he has not even clocked in all those years that Bonnie has no regard for her mother. But he believes himself to be a good person, so he’s a definitely a midranger.

            Come on, HG, let us have the results!!

          2. WokeAF says:

            LC can you explain to me further why you think Bonnie is a contagion?

            And can you explain to me further what you mean by an episode of psychosis?

            Beginning to put a few things together about myself and I’m not sure if I am understanding correctly.

            I also have doubled and triple back on my analysis of each character. Is Ed just a dick? Or a narc? If someone I also have doubled and triple back on my analysis of each character. Is Ed just a dick? Or a narc? If someone manipulates like an narc would… but not on purpose , are they a narc?

            HG’s final results will really help me clarify a lot of stuff and I’m really looking forward to it !! Do we know when exactly he’s dropping the articles? He said this week I believe? Or did he say a day

          3. LC says:

            Hi WokeAF, I have no idea if I’m getting contagion empathy right. But I think contagion is what made Bonnie push Perry. We see in flashbacks how she watched Perry assault Celeste and she feels for Celeste. She cannot bear to see the hurt and obvious abuse he is inflicting. On her mother’s deathbed she says Perry was a stand-in for her mother. It’s her mother she wanted to push. That’s another way of saying that she felt Celeste’s pain like her own – the problem then was of course that she acted on it…

            Bonnie’s mother is psychotic because she has “visions”. Sometimes but not always, because we see her also functioning quite normally. I’m assuming that such visions that both husband and father suffer from (Bonnie and her father have a confrontation about this, he says he did “protect” Bonnie as best as he could and she disagrees) are signs of a mental illness and it seems of a schizophrenic kind I have a friend who is psychotic/schizophrenic —if untreated that is. It comes in bouts with her. If you have this kind of thing you think those visions are real …Some people are aware, others not. We don’t know more about the background, why the mother punished Bonnie so severely. But she clearly also has the ability to connect with her emotionally which is shown when she repeatedly observes that Bonnie is drowning (and we know that she is contemplating throwing herself off the cliffs). Schizophrenia by the way develops in LOCE environments, just like narcicissm, when the emotional perception of children is not validated.

            Ed manipulates people like a narc you say ? When? Can’t think of an example. When Nathan seeks a fight time and time again, Ed says look dude, we don’t get on, can we just acknowledge this and move on?

            Ed sulks, okay, but not only narcs sulk. He has reason to believe that something is wrong with his marriage. Bonnie is keeping him out of her life emotionally. He senses this, keeps asking and gets crappie answers from her (partly because she lies so as not to hurt him, partly because she herself has lost herself somewhat).

            Madeline and Ed are very similar in that they lose touch with who they are for a bit until they sort themselves and one another out (albeit in a way that doesn’t look entirely convincing but hey). Ed thinks he can occupy the moral high ground because Madeline cheated on him. But the therapist calls him up on it, says emotional unavailability is also a form of cheating. Its difficult to say where, why and when their unavailability began and with whom.

            Well, if it was me, I wouldn’t touch Ed with a barge pole but I don’t think he’s a narc because he does have empathy and that’s what cuts the cake. He’s also not interested in taking up the chance to take revenge – the theatre directors girlfriend does a lot to tempt him into that direction but he declines.

            Actually I would love to see a scene with the therapist and Ed alone – the therapist is a good one – mega competent. (Ed actually is quiet and seems to mull it over what she is saying and doesn’t deflect but we don’t see much of an effect of his thoughts – and no more dialogue after that). He does carry on saying that Madeline is mostly at fault but does he think it? I also can’t say that I can’t sympathise with that view. Madeline could have SAID she was unhappy before she broke out. Except she’s Madeline and didn’t realise….But it’s Ed who wants a no nonsense renewal of their vows whereas Madeline would have loved the narcy grand gesture! So Ed : no narc.

            The script writers probably had very competent psych advice. At least that’s how it comes over to me. So glad you brought this into the blog HG, wouldn’t have watched the series otherwise!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          5. WokeAF says:

            That’s so funny! Almost everything you said about Ed I had noticed and I had originally voted him empathic but not an empath .

            Then after reading Ed’s thread so many goddamn times , I began to become convinced he was a LMR
            Because I noted all the signs of that that people had pointed out and I thought perhaps I was superimposing my empathy on to him

            Ironically, for me, ED is actually going to be the big reveal !!

            After what people have been saying about contagion I suspect I have a relatively high contagion percentage but I guess I will have to find out when I finally get my proper full assessment done

          6. LC says:

            One more thought on Madeline. There is this very dangerous thing she does with her daughter Abigail, elevating her to be a replacement partner. Wants ‘friendship’ with her daughter and thus even discusses the outcome of couple’s therapy with her! (Again a demonstration of Madeline’s lack of boundaries). So there clearly is parentification going on: as in Abigail cares emotionally for her mum over a consistent period of time. That’s CoD (and also matrinarc) behaviour. I don’t know if SE’s do this too. I’d place her exactly on the dividing line between CoD and SE.

          7. LC says:

            WokeAF, I didn’t manage to read the entire thread on Ed, I saw mostly MPs, yours and K’s conflict over who said what and meant what and how, plus meta analysis as to what went on in the thread. I scrolled down to the bit about birth control, what’s underneath that I’ve no idea.

            I have also not read the entirety of the BLL comments in other threads – I watched the series late and going through it all would have been too much. I also stopped reading the threads when I realised that they evolved when people were still watching. This is not because I wasn’t interested, but I am a literary studies and film studies person and I know that to do a character analysis you need to have seen the material in its entirety and – ideally – you need to watch it in its entirety at least twice (which I haven’t, I only watched it once).

            We are dealing with fictional characters here and story arcs. Viewers are deliberately hoodwinked to create twists and tension. Earlier scenes appear in a totally different light when you rewatch them with the knowledge of the end.

            I teach my students that they must not take fictional characters for real ones when analysing them (you only see what the creators need you to see), and I teach them that no character exists in isolation. Bonnie and Madeline are deliberately contrasted, so are Jane and Renata. Nathan and Ed are contrasted. Bonnie’s mother and Celeste. Ziggy and the twins. Madelines little daughter (I forget her name) and Amabella. All good stories need conflicts.

            From what I could see from the way people argued was that quite a lot of the time the characters and their conflicts were taken for real, I know this kind of identificatory reading from undergraduates. These undergrads are people who actually study literature, and even they do it, so it is absolutely to be expected on a site like this.

            The conflict that you had over Bonnie taking Abigail to PP is a sign that the creators achieved their goal to create a maximum of engagement with the show. They took a highly emotional issue and planted it at the heart of the Madeline Bonnie conflict. And it is a conflict were nobody can be right. Abigail the teenager wanted birth control. Fair enough. She has the right age to want sex. But she doesn’t want to be on the pill to have normal hethy sex but to sell her body. Not okay. Everybody in their right mind knows it’s a parent’s duty to prevent an underage child from selling her body (for whatever reason). But as viewers we’re hoodwinked to think Abigail wants sex like a normal teen.

            So what we get here is Bonnie doing what she thinks is right (helping Madeline getting birth control) and Madeline what she thinks and we all know is right, stopping Abigail from selling her body. Madeline is able to do that. Bonnie and Nathan are not. This is important for the assessment of Madelines character.

            And it is – now from a realistic / identificatory point of view – very possible that Abigail doesn’t ask her mother to take her to PP because she instinctively feels that her mother will be in the way of her political project. We do not see that aspect of her thinking though.

            To assume that Abigail doesn’t ask Madeline just because her mother is abusive is what it is, an assumption. I think it is ill founded – judging simply from the way the story plays out, that Abigail – the teen – requested contraception for her questionable project, and the characters must – for the sake of entertainment – pass a test: the test of who is able to stop her. And against all odds this is her mother, her mother alone. Madeline is thus established as a good enough mother. Not a perfect mother by all means but a good enough one.

            What I have learnt in 5 years of intensive therapy (psychoanalysis, still ongoing) with a highly competent analyst is that conflict is normal, good and healthy in healthy relationships. You must look at the way the conflict is conducted to judge if the people are able to have healthy conflicts. People who are capable of having healthy conflicts (e. g. K, you, MP) also sometimes get embroiled in unhealthy ones. What I learned from God knows how many years of doing literary and film analysis is that story conflicts serve purposes that are different to real life conflicts. So you must do psychological analyses of characters with the viewer in mind.

            This series here, I am sure of it (although I don’t know) had psych advisors to portray the characters realistically DESPITE the fact that they are fictional constructs. So any analysis whether they “ARE” narcs can just be approximations, but we probably get quite a good idea nonetheless.

            A figure like Ed however might have been left deliberately unfathomable, not least because the Madeline Ed conflict is central to the entire show and it needs to be left in a way that there is room for character development in a third series. Meaning Ed might turn out to be totally different than we all think because there is a back story we are not aware of.

            Checking out now, hoping for the master results !!

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            The BLL exercise seemed more of a demonstration of empath emotional thinking. How we project our experiences onto others and the resulting emotional maelstrom. I knew early on for instance that anything I would say about Celeste based on my experience with my mother could be inflammatory and perhaps have people accusing me again of blaming or assigning fault, despite that they were my experiences, observations, and feelings, so why bother? In that way I honestly often do feel censored and question my participation here.

            I’m not saying that was the intent of the BLL exercise, and it did result in much discussion and presented perspectives that we may not have considered, but it also had the potential to become emotional, competitive, and argumentative.

          10. K says:

            I completely understand what you are saying. Speak up, I have your back and I will be more vocal about it.

          11. LC says:


            I agree with this, wholeheartedly though not completely: “The BLL exercise seemed more of a demonstration of empath emotional thinking. How we project our experiences onto others and the resulting emotional maelstrom.”

            Only partly because there were not just projections but from what I could see also a lot of good observations (“good” as in persuasive, in my film studies trained eyes), and partly because I think the BLL exercise was somewhat typical for many controversies here in that so called “empaths” react in presumptuous ways, so presumptuous that they start looking for narc traits in one another instead of really engaging with other perspectives and taking the time to understand also positions that are not their own.

            “I knew early on for instance that anything I would say about Celeste based on my experience with my mother could be inflammatory and perhaps have people accusing me again of blaming or assigning fault, despite that they were my experiences, observations, and feelings, so why bother? In that way I honestly often do feel censored and question my participation here.”

            I do too, and I used to be like Celeste (not with physical violence but totally in denial about the emotional abuse that went on and in which I colluded). Every time I want to own my CoD mothering mistakes collectively (this means confronting CoD motherhood together), I have to do it as if treading on egg shells and so far – paradoxically – only you responded with understanding!

            ” I’m not saying that was the intent of the BLL exercise, and it did result in much discussion and presented perspectives that we may not have considered, but it also had the potential to become emotional, competitive, and argumentative.”

            I understand what you mean and I agree, and it shows yet again that people who engage with narcissists (we all) have a lot to learn about not being narcissistic ourselves: by that I mean we have to learn to deal with criticism fairly. Self image and what’s performed here clash a lot of the time and that’s narcissistic. It can be changed though, if we want it to.

          12. K says:

            Should we ignore our narcissistic traits and only focus on the empathic traits.

            Also, when people insist on looking through their own myopic lens rather then trying to understand different positions, the situation is likely to become contentious.

          13. NarcAngel says:

            There were good observations. That is what I meant by “presented perspectives that we may not have considered”. I had not watched Season 2, so I was looking at the reasoning people used rather than their conclusion, and it’s a good thing because the guesses changed from episode to episode in a lot of cases. I remember thinking: Wouldn’t it be better to wait until the end? because it’s best to observe people over time rather than from a few isolated instances (and pending script).

            I hear you on confronting the CoD mothering issue. It’s very touchy. Hard to articulate and keep brief but I’ll take a stab at it. I have found that what I might consider personal responsibility, others consider blame or fault. It seems that there is an unwritten code for some that says if you accept responsibility for your part then that puts others in a bad light because you are removing the victim veil and expecting them to follow suit which is not the case or intention. It will be followed by many but, but, buts…and angry posts about needing to have more empathy, not blaming, glorifying narcissists, and not pointing fingers etc. I imagine just those words: victim veil has stirred some anger, but I’m tired of having to walk on eggshells myself in order not to ruffle feathers. I read lots of how others see or feel, but god forbid I should be able to say what I feel or felt. I have no right? I have been told I don’t understand, lack empathy, should forgive my mother……(isn’t that finger pointing?). Thing is, I think people discount the fact that I was watching both my mother and StepN from a third position. I was not IN the relationship and therefore have a different view than they might. Not exactly neutral but with more logic. I saw lots of StepN for sure, but I also saw the ways in which my mother acted which led me to the belief that she was complicit to some degree. She was not always a victim and there are times when she could have left. Do I think that is the case for all? No, it’s individual. Some (not saying all by any stretch) people will not accept easily that others have come to a position where they can own their part because they feel it demands something of them and they are not ready. Isn’t it more empowering to realize that you did have a part in it and recognize that you also have the power to then disengage from it? That the narc is powerless without your participation? That’s my thinking, but apparently I don’t know anything because I was only watching.

            (You in a general sense, not you specifically LC).

          14. LC says:


            “Should we ignore our narcissistic traits and only focus on the empathic traits.”

            No, absolutely not. I for one am an advocate for not celebrating empathy but focus on our narcissism.

            “Also, when people insist on looking through their own myopic lens rather then trying to understand different positions, the situation is likely to become contentious.”

            K, I hope you’ll let me live but I didn’t enjoy your input in the Ed thread. I thought you were being haughty and aggressive with MP and WokeAF in that you talked down to them. You even said that you enjoyed your trait of superiority. I didn’t. You will want me to provide evidence that you didn’t talk down rather than stating “facts”, and if I do I expect you to twist my words with “facts” and “logic”. To be fully honest with you, I understood were MP and WokeAF were coming from and I was pained to see their insecurity. MP ended up wondering if she was the narc and repeatedly stated how confused she was. WokeAF went to pieces over the thread. Yet you remained on a steam roller. According to your own reasoning and logic MP’s confusion could constitute an instance of having been gaslighted by you. Not that I think that you gaslighted her. Not at all. What I would have liked to have seen from you is more sensitivity, not least because your writing holds clout here.

            I am often intrigued by the way you seem so sure that you are so right. But I let you be. In this thread here I feel that I can and want to voice that criticism because I earn my living with studying film and literature. I voice it because I know also how professional analyses are done that are based on psychological models. I know how professionals engage with one another’s views – and it certainly isn’t done in the way you do it – analysing people’s narcissism when they actually want to talk about a film.

            I also voice that criticism because you invited it by addressing me directly. I hope you can do something constructive with what I have written – let us not make a mega circular thread out of it 😉

          15. FYC says:

            NA, I am late on the scene as I’m dealing with some pressing matters, but I just read the results and your comment. I sincerely invite you to never exclude your thoughts of feelings on any matter. I enjoy all honest, thoughtful discussion and different view points. Know you have my support and respect even if/when we may not agree or have not had the same experiences. I would no longer visit KTN if honest opinion and dissent were shamed and politically ‘correct’ responses ruled the day. One of the things that makes KTN so exceptional is the brutal honesty. So bring it on. It’s all good.

          16. LC says:


            What’s KTN?

            I second your comment to NA.
            NA must be the blog magnet, I’ve been called the voice of reason in this thread and earned a logic blast distinction so I’m using that title to say that for me NA is the empathic voice of blog reason. I can’t think of a comment by her that I didn’t like or couldn’t accept. Also I adore your sense of humour NA. For me you are especially important because I’m since ways you are the adult voice of my children.

            Anyway I wanted to say that I’m trying to go back to read only mode again. Once I have got my blog addiction under control I’ll write again. I’ll need to be strict though and really not post so it’ll be a while.


            I know I left you a comment last night inviting you to answer (is not online yet as I write this) but I want to withdraw it. I’m happy for HG to publish it but I want to stop writing here in this thread. Not because I don’t stand by what I’ve written but because it’s getting exhausting – for me and everyone else involved. Maybe there is something in my posts that could make you think about your own role in a different way than before. If I managed I’m happy. If not I’m happy to accept that I failed in making you see my POV.

            I hope you’re okay because I haven’t seen any comments by you of late – but they might of course be in moderation.


            Thank you again for the BLL exercise – I have learnt tonnes. Do say if the exercise gave you some new insights too please!

            All best

          17. HG Tudor says:

            KTN is knowing the narcissist.

            You’re welcome

          18. WokeAF says:

            LC I have very much enjoyed interacting with you!!
            I’m on the same page as you.

            I’ve taken this last few days off work but I’ll be back to work within a couple of days and will be reading and posting but not to the extent I have been .
            . For a while . Unless something outrageously fascinating happens Lol

          19. MommyPino says:


            Thank you for your thoughts and voicing them. I’m also on the same page with you. It is draining for me as well. I don’t think that conflicts like this is good for any of us.

            K, I haven’t checked yet if more comments from me have been published but if they have just disregard them and if they haven’t I am withdrawing them as well. The only reason that I commented back is because I didn’t want a false narrative about me to keep getting perpetuated. I want for all of us to move on and hopefully have more respect for each person’s dignity. Nobody won in this conflict exchange. None of us are narcs. I only wish for my comments to not be dissected anymore or analyzed unless I asked for it. I also wish for the past to not be brought up anymore especially since I have given my very best efforts to explain myself. That is all I ask. I do hope that you’re ok and I want to say that I have always enjoyed reading your comments before and I wish that we could go back to how it was. I apologized again for my overreaction that have caused all of this and will be making serious efforts to adjust my behavior.

          20. K says:

            This comment is fascinating because she is trying to control the narrative, that she created, by removing culpability for her behavior from her past comments, as well as, her future ones. It’s also facade maintenance and false contrition.

            MommyPino says:
            August 3, 2019 at 17:41

            K, I haven’t checked yet if more comments from me have been published but if they have just disregard them and if they haven’t I am withdrawing them as well. The only reason that I commented back is because I didn’t want a false narrative about me to keep getting perpetuated. I want for all of us to move on and hopefully have more respect for each person’s dignity. Nobody won in this conflict exchange. None of us are narcs. I only wish for my comments to not be dissected anymore or analyzed unless I asked for it. I also wish for the past to not be brought up anymore especially since I have given my very best efforts to explain myself. That is all I ask. I do hope that you’re ok and I want to say that I have always enjoyed reading your comments before and I wish that we could go back to how it was. I apologized again for my overreaction that have caused all of this and will be making serious efforts to adjust my behavior.

          21. K says:

            Gee, I thought you were getting involved and staying involved. Let me share my POV with you.

            Thank you for your judgmental, biased and unhelpful intrusion. Your involvement, along with WAF’s, has only served to amplify the gas lighting effect by supporting and enabling its continuation on this thread. Your intervention and invalidation of my experience speaks volumes about you and your character.

            Self-advocacy is neither haughty nor arrogant; on the contrary it should be encouraged and supported. Victims of gas lighters have the right to defend themselves and to do so aggressively when warranted, as was the case here. Would you tell a victim of rape s(he) was too aggressive and haughty when she fought off her/his attacker? Would you ask a rape victim to consider the rapist’s POV and feelings?

            Your statement below is an assumption and it’s incorrect.

            “I think you needed to win K, and I think you felt under attack – not sure why – perhaps”

            It is patently clear that you don’t recognize gas lighting so I will walk you through it in three easy steps.

            1. Gas lighting is a type of emotional abuse where the bully or abuser makes the target question their judgments and reality.
            2. Here is a classic example of gas lighting.

            “But I was telling the truth when I said that I didn’t say that you called Filipinos assholes and tattletales, I was telling the truth, I really didn’t say it, you misunderstood it and I was thinking that maybe I structured the sentence poorly that is why you misunderstood it.”

            3. There is no admission of wrongdoing so the lie is maintained and this example also incorporates a pity play and a blame shift. It’s clearly the victim’s fault and the gas lighter clearly refuses to take ownership.

            You should read Revision of History and The Terrible Gaslighting Twenty.

          22. WokeAF says:


            Your intervention and invalidation of my experience speaks volumes about you and your character.

            MP’s mom just died. JUST.DIED.
            I got confused and thought for a hot minute she might be a narc, and was manipulating me.
            I shit a couple of narc-worthy comments at her. Within hours i realized my fuckup and apologized my ass off. I still feel bad.

            That was, no joke, in the top 20 of the shittiest things I’ve done in my 45 year lifespan.

            You know speaks volumes about YOU?
            You’ve been verbally lynching her for more than a week in the grief of her mothers death just to prove your point.

            So shut the fuck up.

          23. MommyPino says:

            WokeAF, Thank you for defending me. Please don’t feel bad. We all make mistakes. I have done so many mistakes and shitty things in my life including being responsible for this never ending conflict. I know that i didn’t gaslight. That’s all that matters. We shouldn’t respond anymore. And this is not to triangulate, I just don’t have a way of telling this to you privately. But I’m going swimming now while it’s still summer. I hope you do something fun yourself too. Love to you. 💕💕❤️

          24. WokeAF says:

            MP -You’re not responsible for this never ending conflict. You’ve apologized like 18 times and explained yourself thoroughly.

            My mom died three years ago and she was an empath . Now maybe losing a narcissistic parent isn’t as bad as losing an empath parent or normal . But it still bumps you sideways in an existential way.
            What did you do? You didn’t RAPE her, as she likes to keep using that analogy .
            You accidentally gaslit ( and that’s only to her interpretation of the word ). And then apologized and tried to clarify over and over and tried to make peace .

            I don’t know if she has the HG seal of approval on being an empath, but if she does then she needs to get her shit straightened out because she’s way too preoccupied with her anger and hatred at bullies to realize she’s become one

            I can’t even imagine dealing with this shit while I was grieving my mother especially if I was coming here for support and distraction .

            And I knew I might get some clapback for that comment but I really don’t care.

            I hope you have a good swim and don’t apologize or explain yourself anymore ok

          25. MommyPino says:

            Thank you WokeAF, I had a good swim. Unsubscribing is the best for both of us. Maybe others can still talk to her but I think for both of us there is nothing that we can do right now or say that will make a difference. It’s not that we can’t stand the heat, this isn’t worth our time because there’s nothing that we can do that will produce an outcome acceptable for all of us.
            I believe that she does have the HG seal of approval as an empath. All the best to you! 💕

          26. K says:

            This statement below was amusing. How does someone accidentally gas light.

            “You accidentally gaslit ( and that’s only to her interpretation of the word ). And then apologized and tried to clarify over and over and tried to make peace .”

            I see devaluation, lies, smearing, projection, pity plays, diluting and glossing over.

          27. K says:

            I see a lie, pity play and facade maintenance

          28. K says:

            This is a pity play, projection and a blame shift.

          29. FYC: I dropped my cell phone behind my oven in the kitchen in my apt. yesterday. (don’t ask) I was aghast!!! I was thinking, do I ask my male neighbor for help? Would he then have a story to tell about me to other neighbors when he needed a topic of conversation? I was afraid to attempt to move the oven because I did not want a dangerous gas incident, and I have never seen behind an oven in my life. I thought of calling property management, and then I wondered would they bill me for such an incident and assistance request? Plus the record everything. and they do love to bill. I had the most awful feeling and then I thought of you and how you noticed my aversion to technology and I noticed the oven incident brought out the same awful abandoned feeling. So, I gripped up a bit, and gingerly moved the oven out of its location about 10 inches or so, and looked behind it and saw that it had one accordion pipe that could move out about 3 feet. So I moved the oven out bit by bit and then I climbed on top of the counter and hung down and retrieved my phone. I did it! No nosy neighbour to spread the incident. No call to property management to record in my file. No financial maintenance call bill. No gossip. I I saw how the oven was hooked up and everything. I did it, FYC.

          30. FYC says:

            Excellent, PSE! You can do almost anything you set your mind toward. That’s the little secret no one talks about. There really are no limits, just different solutions. You are seizing your power!

      3. WokeAF says:

        “A herd of parent Lieutenants” LMFAO

        1. Presque Vu says:

          K … I respect your place, input and value on the blog.

          This last week. I have seen a different K.

          You are aggressive, and to be honest, attacking in grammar.

          You have broke down comments, added narc behaviours/traits to justify your points.

          BUT.. I’m not sure you see the bigger picture. I was looking to you to see your valued breakdown on BLL. I feel like you’ve got stuck in narcville analysis.

          Are you ok? What’s going on in your life?
          Your dissection of narc behaviour isn’t accurate. Your feelings are so evident.

          Not everything is black and white. K .. what’s going on with you? I feel you under pressure., mad, angry., destructing.

          1. WokeAF says:

            I’m unsubbing from these two threads bc this is mental
            K I was really rooting for you to own your shit and make nice cuz I figured you got a sore spot poked but you’re just relentless. And not in a good way

            Even if MP WAS manipulating, I wasn’t ! And you were still rude AF to me . So that shows me your judgement is off.

            I can’t stand the smell, I’m getting outta the kitchen 😆

          2. LC says:


            “Gee, I thought you were getting involved and staying involved. Let me share my POV with you.

            Thank you for your judgmental, biased and unhelpful intrusion.”

            It’s painful to read that last comment. I am not thanking you for the sarcasm oozing from it.

            If I didn’t know better I would now think that you’re the midranger, one who is lashing out because she is wounded. I would so totally go GOSO and in fact I think after this comment from you I will not ever respond to any of your ideas unless a miracle occurs.

            What I learn from your aggressive comment is that you’ve sent me now is that I was right, that you indeed have an aggressive conflict strategy. This wasn’t about me being right though – I honestly thought I could make you see something about yourself. Now it’s in plain view for all to see, only you yourself seem oblivious.

            Look, you already know it’s back to extra class for you as regards narcissism (your own words in the actual results thread) but you still pull up links or rather pointers towards articles I should read. I know what gaslighting is. But I also know what an aggressive debating style is.

            I also know that my assumption that you needed to win is an assumption. I kind of think it’s justified.

            Never mind, K – I have learnt a lot also from that exchange with you here, and it’s related to the BLL theme. “Empaths” such as you can display very narcy behaviour. They can deflect, deny and be aggressive. When identifying narcs one must be incredibly careful because narcissism is a spectrum, it must be done with caution. So here is a non sarcastic thanks for that hugely important reminder.

            This is my last comment in this thread, and this time I’m sticking to that resolve.

            All best to you, K.

          3. K says:

            Presque Vu
            You are a little late to the party. The popcorn machine has been up and running since I received a false contrition/blame shift/pity party/gas lighting explanation on the Ed Thread.

            My feelings are fine.

Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Next article

The Empathic Supernova