The Narcissist´s Wheel of Misery


There can be no disputing that ensnarement with our kind results in misery for our victims. How might one assess that misery in terms of impact? There is both an objective standard and a subjective one.

Let us take two ensnarements :-

The first is the Intimate Partner Primary Source (Wife) of a Middle Lesser Narcissist. The ensnarement has lasted 15 years. He has physically assaulted her more times than can now be remembered, he is known around town for chasing “young skirt”, he occasionally works, leaving her to hold down a job and raise a family. He steals money from her, he is verbally abusive, forceful sexually and his version of being pleasant to her is a break in the abusive behaviour.

The second is the Dirty Little Secret of an Upper Mid Range Narcissist. He is married and has the archetypal desirable family unit, he lives in a pleasant part of town, he has a high-powered profession, is liked by many and supports local charities through fundraising efforts which he comperes. The DLS has been The Other Hidden Woman for 7 years, always hoping he will leave the wife. The DLS has never been called a bad name, she is expected to appear at short notice when the UMR Narcissist compels it and if she fails to do so she receives a triangulated comment with regard to the wife or even other women who may or may not be IPSSs since it is unclear to the DLS. She is often let down by him as he cancels at the last minute but he always lets her know, he never does a ´no show´. She finds herself envious of the apparent delightful lifestyle of the wife and wishes she could be her. She often feels used especially when he insists on the role playing games when they meet at the high-end hotel out of town, but it is just role-playing right?

If you asked me as an impartial observer which of those two ensnarements is worse for the victim, this would be my answer.

The former has the worse situation, but for each of them their situations are equally unpleasant and horrific. Objectively the answer is the first, but subjectively they are equal.

Both individuals are miserable.

They are caught on The Narcissist´s Wheel of Misery.

When we put you on this wheel it is difficult, but not impossible to stop it turning.

How does this wheel work. Once you have become ensnared in whatever form it takes with regard to your position in the narcissist´s fuel matrix, you are feeding your inherent addiction to narcissists. This addiction (by the very fact it is an addiction) is hugely powerful and it compels you to engage with the narcissist (and often several narcissists in different guises and you do not realise they are narcissists) often and repeatedly.

This wheel has you sitting down for coffee with the narcissist, pleading with the narcissist to stop hitting you, asking the narcissist why he is not talking to you.

It has you texting the narcissist to ask where he is, or what he wants for dinner, or whether he will come and see you. It has you reading the plethora of apparently contrite text messages that you are being bombarded with after being on the receiving end of a tirade at your 40th birthday party.

It has you exasperated as emails flood you demanding to know when he can see the children. This wheel has you stalking her Twitter and Instagram profiles to find out where she really was last night when she failed to turn up as expected. This wheel has you running around the neighbourhood running errands for the narcissist.

The wheel has you sat sobbing with your mother recounting the latest hateful text exchange. it has you at your friends´houses as you go over again and again his push and pull behaviour as you try to fathom out what on earth is going on. You spin around and around as you sit looking at the pictures of the golden period wondering what went wrong?

It has you lamenting the perfect love which has slipped through your fingers or wondering if the new man will make her happier than you ever could make her feel. This revolving wheel of misery takes hold of you and has you wondering where he has gone to, why he has not answered your text messages, why he made that remark about your cooking, why he never helps you with the household chores, ascertaining if you can make some improvements to solve this riddle, pondering why he never touches you like he used to and whether he is getting “it” elsewhere and who with.

The Wheel of Misery has you turning round and round so you engage with and about the narcissist in a multiplicity of ways and every time it causes you to interact, this is what happens.

You interact.

Your emotional thinking rises.

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

Your emotional thinking rises.

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

Your emotional thinking rises.

This is The Wheel part. Round and round and round.

Now let us add in the misery.

You interact.

You suffer an adverse consequence from the narcissist/because of the narcissist

(Example the narcissist verbally insults you/you feel upset thinking about the once good times with the narcissist)

Your emotional thinking rises.

The unpleasant emotions rise as a consequence

(Example you feel anger at how you have been treated.)

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

You suffer an adverse consequence from the narcissist/because of the narcissist

Your emotional thinking rises.

The unpleasant emotions rise as a consequence.

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

You suffer an adverse consequence from the narcissist/because of the narcissist

Your emotional thinking rises.

The unpleasant emotions rise as a consequence.

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

You suffer an adverse consequence from the narcissist/because of the narcissist

Your emotional thinking rises.

The unpleasant emotions rise as a consequence.

You do not use logic.

You continue to interact.

You suffer an adverse consequence from the narcissist/because of the narcissist

Your emotional thinking rises.

The unpleasant emotions rise as a consequence.

Thus the revolving wheel has now added the misery caused by what we do to you and how you are made to feel as a consequence of what we do and/or your own actions in relation to us.

One things leads to another. The more you interact, the greater the misery, the more your emotional thinking will rise, the greater the misery, logic becomes less used and more obscured and on it goes.

This is why when you are placed on The Wheel of Misery it becomes so hard to stop it.

How do you stop The Wheel of Misery from turning and keeping you on it as you go helplessly and hopeless round and round?

Firstly you have to recognise that you are on The Wheel of Misery.

How is this done? You assess your feelings.

Is this person making you cry, get angry, feel worthless, horrified because they are hurting your children, making you feel lonely by isolating you from friends, making you feel sad by taking you for granted, making you feel tired by failing to support you, alarming you by spitting in your face, annoying you through stealing your money, irritating you by belittling you when at dinner with friends, angering you by never acknowledging your contributions, hurting you by punching you in the face, causing you upset through sleeping with someone else, making you feel anguish commenting about how brilliant your brother is and how rubbish you are, making you sad because they are always forgetting your birthday, causing you to feel anxious by spoiling the wedding anniversary, making you frustrated through never wanting to go on holiday, having you at your wits end because they never help around the house, demanding sexual behaviour which upsets you, unnerving you by pushing you, saddening you through never showing affection, making you feel frightened by shouting at you, causing you to feel frustrated by blowing hot and cold and a thousand other adverse sensations and feelings, then you are on the wheel.

You have to recognise you are on the wheel.

When you do you must realise what this wheel is, that it is self-perpetuating, that it is misery and only misery (despite how that might sometimes be masked) and most of all you must stop it turning.

How do you then stop it turning?

You gather the tools to do so from me. This well then enable you to apply those tools and this will (and it will) lead to The Wheel of Misery stopping that seemingly endless turning.

It is a miserable, empty and hurtful wheel that will always turn.

Unless you stop it.

135 thoughts on “The Narcissist´s Wheel of Misery

  1. dvkjoseph says:

    I just came across this post as I was exploring WordPress. This is really well-written. Quite relatable in many ways. Good job 🙂

  2. Caroline R says:


    This new article has powerful impact!

    The title brings a feeling of apprehension, then we see the header….
    I can scarcely bring myself to look at the wheel, as it represents the centuries’ old instrument of public shame and execution. I recoil from it as an instrument of slow, brutal, merciless and agonising torture.

    Criminals were sentenced to be ‘broken on the wheel’.

    They were taken to the scaffold, strapped down in a face up position, while a masked torturer broke their bones one limb at a time. Smashing them with a hammer. Slowly. Over hours. The victim could see every blow coming.

    This was the favourite punishment for criminals under the French Bourbon Dynasty. It was superceded by the guillotine. The French Bourbon kings were later superceded by the French Republic.

    Your use of this image is entirely appropriate, and jolts the us with the reality of the danger we are in continuing to engage with Ns.
    Both picture and text urges us to GOSO.

    The deeper reality of the purpose of this article becomes apparent to me as I remember French political prisoner Jean Louschart. In 1788 he was condemned to suffer the horrors mentioned above.
    On his way to the scaffold, his fellow political Revolutionaries swooped in, and bundled him away to freedom.
    (He later received a pardon. One hopes that he died of natural causes, and in old age).

    You have raised the Battle Standard of GOSO for us. The battle cry of “Freedom!”
    You urge us to escape the inevitable misery and emotional torture.

    We don’t have a rescue party to deliver us, but we can and must do it ourselves.
    We must be our own Freedom Fighters.
    In this modern era, the average person enjoys the greatest amount of civil liberties and human rights than ever before in history. We must protect our freedom, and not allow brutal treatment against ourselves, even if our wounds aren’t visible.
    Especially from those who say that they “love” us.

    The article uses clear examples to drive the point home, and by the end, the reader is fully pursuaded that their freedom is precious and is not to be hindered in its full attainment.
    Must not be hindered.
    Every effort must be made to achieve it.
    The power is in the reader’s hands now.

    Powerfully written, HG.
    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Caroline R is fine sometimes
      A fine comment haha.
      However, the view that we enjoy unprecedented civil liberties and human rights is myopic and Eurocentric….. capitalist even! Indigenous people in our country are one of many examples of peoples whose rights and freedoms were eroded, no destroyed, through invasion and colonisation.

      I must qualify and explain that I take a very long view of human history. We also look back on the past with our own biases and prejudices. Europe has been narcissistic for quite a few centuries now.

      The compulsion for accuracy made me write this Caroline, not an attempt to criticise you.

      1. Caroline R says:

        Hi Tappi,
        I hope that you’re well.
        Thank you for your thoughts.
        Thank you for your reassurance in your last sentence.

        My comment says that we have more freedoms and civil liberties than ever before in history, and I was thinking particularly of women, in terms of voting rights and freedom of speech.
        And our basic human right to not be tortured.

        I was thinking particularly of single women now being able to live their own lives, being able to have money, to not to be controlled like chattel as in previous generations. Women don’t have to marry to have social status, or to have a life; they’re able to choose who they want as a partner.
        Women can be married and stay in their jobs, unlike in previous generations.

        My comments weren’t an all encompassing statement about freedom in every country or people group. I certainly wasn’t making a statement about equality of freedom, or equality of rights, or of access to legal services to protect and defend those rights.
        I would never be so facetious, and wouldn’t say something that is clearly not true.

        I support anti human trafficking work. Human trafficking is still a massive problem around the world.
        My point was that since we have a right to choose to be free of oppression in our romantic relationships and in our family relationships, we should exercise that right.
        Since I have that right, I will exercise that right.
        There is no biological obligation to stay in relationship with family Ns. I’m exercising that right as we speak.
        HG encourages us to do this, and I was recognising and supporting his efforts in that regard.
        I hope that this clarifies things.

        1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

          Hi Caroline
          Thanks for clarifying.
          I must also clarify.
          It’s a myth that we have unprecedented rights and freedoms is what I was trying to say. Whenever I hear/read that phrase, I can’t help but chime in. If possible to chime in!

          When I mentioned capitalism, I meant there has never been more money on the planet, yet there has also never been more misery. Capitalist nations aren’t the only ones to wreak misery. Deng Xiaopings famous words ‘We will make you rich but we won’t make free’ come to mind.

          Human progress and cultural development isn’t linear either. Women’s social (familial and romantic), political and economic status has waxed and waned over the centuries and in different locations on the globe. For example, 12th century Sicilian women could marry and divorce whomever they chose but that changed quite radically in medieval times! Southeast Asian women enjoyed substantial freedom and power until quite recently- few hundred years…. thanks to the cultural disruption that came along with colonisation.

          Thank you for bringing the oppression discussion back to interpersonal narcissism, and you’re absolutely right. An eloquent last paragraph my dear! ‘Since I have that right, I will exercise that right’- love it. Actually, you’re eloquent in general! I’m currently having major ET when it comes to my father and establishing no contact with him. Apart from that issue, I’m quite well. So much better than when I first came to this blog!

          1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Correction: make you free, not make free….
            So much for accuracy 😅

  3. WAF Tudor says:

    Good points!
    My parents didn’t know so they couldn’t teach me about narcissism, but they also didn’t really have discussions about core values, self esteem, being manipulated etc. I was taught to stand up for myself “if anyone ever hits you , hit em back twice as hard and they’ll never do it again” lol my mothers advice upon entering grade one lmao I used it too! Like 2-3 times in school, worked like a charm.
    Empathy and compassion was fostered in me so I kinda left the nest an open hearted invitation to Narcfest.
    It’s cool tho- bc of it all I’m able to fill in the blanks for MY little empaths.

  4. myriflemyponynme says:

    IPPS wins by KO the title of “golden mule”. She gets the broken heart, the abuse and if she married and bore his children, she has to face divorce, co-parenting issues and seeing the N in her children features. If she is ever to discover he is a N, she will Watch for any narcissistic demeanour in her children to save them.

  5. Dearest HG: It seems that most readers are IPSSs?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Impossible to say. Most readers don’t comment. Based on consultations it’s IPPS and Former IPPS

    2. alexissmith2016 says:

      Great question PSE! There do seem to be more IPSSs on here. Although I was an IPPS when I was young. It was from being an IPSS I worked it out. But mine seemed to treat all of his IPSSs the same. He really put them through what I can only liken to the golden period devaluation and discard equivalent to that of an IPPS. I don;t think I would have had the intellect to have worked out he was an N based on me being treated as an IPSS. I have the utmost admiration for those who have. There are a lot of clever people who read this site. When I have been the IPSS to another N and in the past, they have always fitted how HG describes an IPSS to be treated.

      Were you an IPSS or IPPS?

      1. WokeAF says:

        I was IPSS-DLS which brought me here , from that I realized I’d been IPPS twice before (duh)
        Funny how the DLS situation made me aware of the whole narc gig. I’d just never met anyone who could manage us women so pimpingly.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          That is pretty impressive though that you worked it out from that Woke, you should be really proud of yourself.
          I hadn’t realised that pretty much everyone I ever dated was an N, all my female friends were Ns my family largely Ns. Jees according to HGs statistics of 1 in 6 I must be at the epicentre of everything N. Maybe there’s an N factory near where I live?

          1. WokeAF says:

            I’ve only had narc relationships. Which is weird bc neither of my parents were.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            That’s really sad Woke. It does make me incredibly sad to think that an Intimate relationship was your first experience. I think thats the saddest bit is when someone is innocent and then they get hurt. It doesn’t matter whether it’s the innocence of a child or adult. Just abusing that innocence and trust.

          3. WAF Tudor says:

            Yeah w my kids dad I KNEW BETTER bc I’d had decent parents but as I’ve said before they split when I was 16 and dad started drinking so I was lonely inside. I put aside my intuition and confirmed to his worldview bc I was too lonely inside to deal.
            I’m not sure what “in love” feels like bc I’ve only been “in love” with narcs and barely that , after kids dad. So I decided I wanted to find inner happiness w/o a partner after kids dad and the couple of narcs since were more of a distraction than anything else
            Good news is the whole journey brought me to where I wanted to be – I feel whole and complete now , finally

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            feeling whole and complete is a great place to be! It’s really pleasing to read that you’ve achieved that WAF. You’re reminding me of that Howard Jones song, “What is love?”

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Hadaway is better.

          6. alexissmith2016 says:

            Is that what’s pumping out of your jar or hearts?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            My jar has marmalade in it.

          8. Caroline R says:

            A factory!
            If there is one, they do worldwide shipping, and have spent a lot on transport to Australia.

            The upside is that they send some sexy N-men out here. That’s the only upside….
            Maybe I can organise a refund for both of our N-sisters?

            My former friends were Ns too, but I can see that I was trying subconsciously to work out issues with my U/Lesser N-Mother. And the victim-N sister. The friends being mid-rangers, they provided a screaming rage-free space where I was mostly always painted white.
            What are your thoughts on your N-friends?

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            My thoughts – they’re no longer my friends. Hahaha

            A refund for both our sisters would be great! Where do I sign?

            The sexy ones can live though hey Caroline R. We could keep them in the dungeon though so they stay out of trouble. Just take them out when we want to play.

          10. Caroline R says:

            Your comments about having ‘normal’ parents caught my eye.

            From my studying of all things N, I heard Sandra L Brown discussing the traits of women who were targeted by Ns.
            She said that initial research findings came from women in domestic violence shelters, and the majority of them had grown up with domestic violence.
            She started looking at the great number of women who had access to private counselling, and who were highly educated, intelligent, financially well-resourced, and had ‘normal’ parents.
            When more women were analysed across the whole group of N- victims, and tested with the ‘Big Five Factor Markers’ Personality Test (online and free), the researchers realised that it was the fact that all of these women scored highly for ‘Agreeableness’ and ‘Conscientiousness’ traits that was the common denominator that made them N-targets.

            I’m supertraited for these things too, as explained in HG’s ‘Sitting Target’. It explains much of my romantic life, and if you do the test it will undoubtedly shed light on yours too.

            My first boyfriend and I met on the tram on way to school. We went to neighbouring private schools, and were both in senior year. When I look at my senior year formal dance photos, when he’s looking at me he’s smiling warmly and handsome, but when he’s looking at the camera in the group shot, he has a glacially cold expression. It’s like there’s no one home.

            It wasn’t long after that that he started with the criticisms. I was 16-17 years at the time. It was painful and confusing to be treated with put-downs all of a sudden. And withdrawal of compliments and kindness.

            Nothing about me pleased him.

            He started to talk about another girl whose eyes he was obsessed with.
            He was begrudging about giving me a birthday card.
            I didn’t ask him for one. He brought it up, and made a big deal about it. Making me feel not good enough.

            My first no contact was enacted not long after that, as there was nothing in it for me anymore.
            (Hello, early appearance of my N-traits! Good to see you!)

            One morning my friends and I saw him get off the tram ahead of mine. He must have seen me, as he waited at the stop for my tram to pull up. His face was a picture of gloating smugness as he waited.

            My friends walked along side me like bodyguards as we crossed the road, and went through the school gates. We pretended to be deep in conversation, and I ignored him completely, eyes focussed elsewhere.

            I blanked him.
            It was a great moment.

            Once inside the school grounds, my friends laughed in triumph “you should have seen his face! He couldn’t believe you were ignoring him!”.
            They were so proud of my resolve.
            For me, it was my only course of action.
            It was a bittersweet triumph, however.
            I wanted Richard to be the good guy that I was attracted to in the beginning. Where had he gone? (Yes, he was a mid-ranger).
            The words ‘super’ and ’empath’ were yet to be added to my everyday conversation at that point.

            The point of me sharing this with you is that I seemed to always attract guys who would start out wonderful, but become abusive and antagonistic. I had no answers for this, and wanted it to end.

            Now I have the answers, that we are targeted because of our hardwired traits. Our wonderful supertraits!
            The things that are hijacked by Ns and used against us.
            This successful targeting and ensnarement happens regardless of our family of origin.

            Australian psychologist Abdul Saad describes the Empath’s attachment system as being highly sensitive and easily activated, compared with the rest of the population.
            Ns know how to activate it with love-bombing.
            We fall in love so quickly.
            Love and belonging are deeply hardwired needs for the Empath. We find great pleasure in them too, and so we are deeply motivated to seek them.
            It’s our hardwiring.
            He encourages us to be honest about this vulnerability, and to be self-protective. Christine Louis de Canonville also endorses this action, as does Sandra L Brown (both WNAAD panellists).

            We are encouraged to lead with our core values, our hardwired ‘Conscientiousness’ traits, rather than our ‘Agreeableness’ traits until we know that we can trust a person in any given situation.

            This is essentially leading with logic and keeping emotional thinking on a short leash initially. For example, I need to know what emotional thinking sounds like for me, in my head, in my thoughts, and what it sounds like coming out of my mouth. That way I can be aware of it, nip it in the bud and not act on it. (The going back on my decision, and wanting to give one more chance to the N.)

            This is the crux of so many of HG’s articles. ‘Emotional thinking is not your friend’ and ‘How your emotional thinking creates excuses’ on the YouTube videos playlist are good examples.

            I hope that this brings some clarity and comfort to you, while you’re processing things about your situation.

          11. nunya biz says:

            Caroline R, I really appreciate this story, thank you for sharing. It brought back memories of my first boyfriend in high school who kept focusing heavily on me, obsessed (I was obsessed back, it was unhealthy), and then would intermittently lose interest and find someone else briefly, only to return, this went on for a few years. He would sometimes break up with me about a few weeks before an event, such as a dance I’d want to attend. I didn’t put the put the pattern together and I’m sure I put up with it longer than you did. I would consider myself high on the conscientiousness trait also.
            I kind of miss that girl sometimes though, even though she was a pushover often. Still looking for some balance.

            It is interesting what you refer to about attaching easily also and seeking out attachment feelings.

        2. SMH says:

          WokeAF and Alexissmith, I was IPPS to a Lesser and then IPSS to a mid-ranger (MRN). It was the IPSS experience that brought me here too and made me aware of the ‘whole narc gig’ (love that, WokeAF). I had plenty of questions about Lesser but I was not nearly as attached to him as I was to MRN. Still, I learned a lot about Lesser as well as about MRN, about Matrinarc and about one or two friends and other love interests. I don’t feel that my life is full of narcs but there are enough to keep me hopping!

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Alex, I have noticed that I read on here from posters that experience being and IPSS, or a DLS, for the Narcissist that they are entangled with. I have no idea why, though. I am neither IPPS nor IPSS. I am one of the few NIPSSs that found my way on here.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          Goodness you did well PSE. Who was it you had an entanglement with?

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Alex: The Narcissist was a workplace person, very popular, and he has a large coterie that is very pleasant and I liked them very much, but he also has 4 Lieutenants that I had to deal with, because they hung around him and stuck on him practically like glue. But, I still became addicted to the Narcissist and infatuated with him over time. The 4 Lieutenants were malign towards me, and they feared that I would enter into a formal intimate relationship with him, so they harassed me and smeared me to him. And, I did not fight them back, because I did not want the Narcissist to ever say I could not get along with people, so I suffered the Lieutenants` malice, on his behalf. So I was dealing with five people in total. After three years of all this, I felt very ill without being actually sick because of it all, and I ended up here. I learned what was really going on from all sides of the equation, including my part in it all, learned that I was a NIPSS, and then I went GOSO. I have been away from them all since late February/early March.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            That sounds horrible PSE! We spend so much of our time at work and its vital for our self-esteem that we feel valued and not constantly under threat. I hate them all on your behalf! Has it helped since you GOSO? I know it can still leave you feeling pretty traumatised. Did you find a new job okay?

  6. empath007 says:

    I can’t even tell you how many times I told my narcissits “ I want off this merry – go – round “

    So. Many. Times.

    And he would just let it continue. Amazing.

    1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear empath007,
      The thing is …..they won’t let you
      I tried many many many times to get away from the weasel, he was relentless and kept hanging around like a bad smell until….. HE WAS READY
      Narcissists are like …. “This is the song that never ends ” by Lamb Chop/Shari Lewis – bloody annoying

      Queens song is so much better ….
      “I’ve got to break free”
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. empath007 says:

        They are like that song ! Never met someone so relentless in my entire life.

        Haha! For myself these days I prefer “I’m still standing” by Elton John 🙂

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear empath007,
          Yes yes yes …perfect
          We could also add ……
          🎼 I will survive 🎼
          💪🏾 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Thank you for your brilliantly executed new article and once again explaining how crucial our emotional thinking affects us and helping provide solutions
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Mr Tudor,
        Are those green wellies required to turn that wheel ?
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, to keep the blood off my socks when thinks get exciting.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            I understand, my mum’s neighbour goes bush shooting mainly feral rabbits
            I’ll stick to pruning my thorny roses 🌹
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  8. WokeAF says:

    And all because we so desperately wanted to feel special.

    Rather humbling.

  9. WokeAF says:

    Yup! I’m off the wheel ! Feels great!

    (And I had THREE narcs taking turns spinning it over the last five years)

  10. Mary says:


    Just one question:

    How can he be crying, wailing and claiming repentantance and be fake???

    That, always puzzles me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because he will do the same behaviour again and again and again, therefore the contrition is false. If you have emotional empathy you either do not behave adversely to begin with or on the rare occasions you do it is owing to an external stressor and the individual recognises they have behaved wrongly, they are amends and most importantly they do not repeat the behaviour (at least not for a very long time).

      1. Mary says:

        Thank you HG

        That sound the truth.

        He is so intelligent and charismatic, it is a constant shock to my sistem to have to constantly face his narcissistics behaviour, and i’ m always hoping that his intelligence would prevail over that disorder, or at least control it.

        But it seems that all his great magnifiecient intelligence cannot subdue that state.

        Heart wrenching.


  11. Shelf Fuel says:

    I read “Malice” and the part where he gave the name “Farquhar” to the coffee barista made me laugh so hard that I think I peed myself. 😳😂

    1. MB says:

      It’s a good thing he takes his malice elsewhere. Or at least breaks from the blog on Farquhar days.

  12. E. B. says:

    Good metaphor, great article.

  13. nunya biz says:

    It seems like a slow painful death of just boring disappointment in someone and opportunity cost of life affirming choices versus an obvious place to put blame and acute constant pain. Still hurts. Both involve rationalizing.
    I just binge watched all of “Russian Doll” two days ago. There was the line about a person, “a hole where a choice should be”. Good show!

  14. Shelf Fuel says:

    “The second is the Dirty Little Secret of an Upper Mid Range Narcissist. He is married and has the archetypal desirable family unit, he lives in a pleasant part of town…”

    “She is often let down by him as he cancels at the last minute but he always lets her know, he never does a ´no show´. She finds herself envious of the apparent delightful lifestyle of the wife and wishes she could be her…”

    “It has you reading the plethora of apparently contrite text messages that you are being bombarded with after being on the receiving end of a tirade at your 40th birthday party…”

    “…recounting the latest hateful text exchange. it has you at your friends´houses as you go over again and again his push and pull behaviour as you try to fathom out what on earth is going on. You spin around and around as you sit looking at the pictures of the golden period wondering what went wrong?”

    HG are you spying on me over here? Seriously. All of this is too eerily fucking accurate right down to the 40th birthday party drama (which even more ironically was the last time things were sour and things were fine since then)…

    Piano Boy describes a similar wheel to me. He calls it a “loop” though. But that is a synonym to a wheel really. But rather than focus on the way he treats me he uses the wheel analogy to discuss his guilt and shame and his push and pull of me. To me that means that he has to know what he is doing! How the hell can that be if he does not know what he is? I think he does know what he is. Otherwise why else would be identify the wheel (albeit in a different manner) and not realize there is something wrong with it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No SF, I know my subject inside out.

      He does not know what he is doing, he is a Mid Range Narcissist as explained previously.

      1. Shelf Fuel says:

        Okay, just checking. I mean if it was just “birthday party” as an example that’d be one thing but a 40th birthday? Too specific and too close to home, that’s all I was saying. I meant no disrespect nor did I mean to challenge you in a rude manner.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I did not regard you as being disrespectful nor rude SF, but thank you for the consideration nevertheless.

  15. Tappi Tikarrass says:

    Superb HG.
    Logical, practical and eloquent- but of course.

    Thanks again for helping me jump off my personal wheel/s.

    I’ve been considering why some are resistant and critical of your work. If they’re not narcissists themselves, ultimately, I see denial as a prime factor and obstacle. Oh boy, the excuses a person in denial can and will make. Now there’s a powerful coping mechanism. Also highly maladaptive like narcissism itself.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Tappi, good to see you commenting.

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:


    2. WokeAF says:

      Society as a whole is under a mass spell . Denial seems to be the first reaction of many

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Agreed wokeAF.
        Which makes our job of spreading HGs work as often and as wide as we can all the more important. We need to plant HG seeds in as many people as possible. It will take time.

        Some books and posts aimed at children and teenagers is also a good way to spread HGs writings as they posses less rigid (generally speaking) minds. Education, especially at the right juncture is fundamental for acceptance.

        HG has cracked the narcissism nut wide open for all to see. Anyone with an open mind can acknowledge and respect HGs incredible work of the last few years. And his writing only gets better!

        1. WokeAF says:

          Agreed. I’ve explained the layers of the empathy cake to my teen and also some of the manipulations. I’ve also got him thinking about what core values are important to him, and how important it is not to compromise them to keep a friend or partner in your life. He understands it all. He’s autistic so more vulnerable than some , so I’m going to keep the topic relevant. His best friend is neglected and a scapegoat and shows low empathy , entitlement, etc even right now in their friendship. So he’s aware of that and is ready to leave the friendship if it continues or gets worse . His buddy is still developing so unclear right now on which way he’ll go as many teens have narc traits just die to immaturity .
          I wish it was taught in middle school. Ive considered getting the required credentials to offer classes myself but right now gotta pay the bills and have a good union job in healthcare so no time
          One day perhaps

          1. WokeAF says:

            HG you ever think of actual Tudor U online schooling . ? Beyond what you do so far I mean.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I actually do provide some business mentoring/personal development to existing clients. They have asked for it and I will provide it through an audio consultation, I do not advertise the fact that I do this.

          3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Your son is lucky to have you as a parent Woke.
            Excellent application of HGs work. That to me is the mark of overall intelligence. To apply the knowledge one has gained in a beneficial way.

            I hear you regarding having to pay the bills and thus unable to devote time to equally valuable pursuits. May you find the time in the near future- vital work and you sound up to the task!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It is about reducing emotion thinking to allow logic to be applied. Intelligence is not a defence to our kind, TT.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            HG, I do very much like how you constantly remind us to use LT over ET. It really helps me take a step back and think clearly. I use my inner voice to tell me this a fair bit and my ET is largely under control most of the time now. Previously I would have been governed by ET.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Good to read.

          7. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            I was writing about intelligence in a general way HG and with regards to all types of people, whether empath, narcissist or normal. I can see how my comment can be interpreted as a sweeping statement.

            I wholeheartedly agree that intelligence is no defence against your kind.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Jolly good.

          9. Tappi: That was a very intelligent observation that you made.

          10. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Thank you PSE.

  16. NarcAngel says:

    Another excellent and informative article.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you NA.

  17. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: I have determined that most of my female friends in my life have been Somatic. I made a decision that I would change that after what I am learning here and after my last job, where I had to drop a few people because of the overall entanglement. So, I am at a new gym location, and the Zumba class I take one day a week is taught by a somatic female. I have been going there since you last took that break from the blog. Usually I would go up to an instructor that I liked and tell them that I enjoy their class, etc.. However, I am changing my ways. Also, I remember the Japanese Male Somatic substitute a couple of weeks ago wanted my attention in a large class. I did not give it. He was an one-offer, as a substitute instructor. I have noticed the female somatic instructor attempting to get my attention, I subtly ignore her. Last Thursday, she came up to me and said she loved the energy I brought to her class. I said, thanks, and no more. I perceive that you are right when you say there is an instinctive relationship between Empaths and Narcissists. This is vital information to know. This knowledge is step 1 for me. I now have to figure out step 2 and beyond.

  18. Mary says:


    It is exactly what it has been happening since he shelved me 4 years ago.

    I don’t need to know what position i am in his matrix…because it is clear now:
    I am in the wheel of misery.

    What i need to do is to be free from the addiction i have, and the hope that he will act his “loving promises”…
    Because it is all future faking to keep me hanged on, and stuck on the wheel.

    This it is too overwhelmingly upsetting and heart cutting…

    1. Shelf Fuel says:

      Ditto, Mary. Ditto big time. 🙁

  19. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: Is there a general timeframe that one can use to determine if a man is a Narcissist? Also, if one is an Empath, and finds a man attractive, is it a great chance that he is a Narcissist because the Emotionally Thinking is seeing and evaluating the man and sending the message to oneself that he is attractive? (I do not mean good looking as a definition of attractive, but as being alluring and enticing as a person, whether the man would classically be labeled attractive or not).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is not a general time frame no.
      If you stay away from dating and all narcissists for 6 months you reduce your ET to a level which makes it safe to proceed re dating as when your ET surges should you meet a narcissist you will be in the window of evasion.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: `There is not a general time frame no`: Oh my goodness!!! I feel alarmed. I believe I have read that you have assessed men for your readers via a Narc Detector consultation? Or a package? The reader answers for you various questions about the person that they have decided to date, or are dating? I would request such a consultation, if I ever reached a point to be serious about someone to date, if that is possible. I do not want to proceed on my own cognizance in such an important decision, if I could engage your guidance in such a matter. I would truly be much obliged.

  20. Whitney says:

    Thank you for this brilliant and insightful work HG.
    I’ve been on this wheel for years, but I will stop this addiction.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. MB says:

        Is the wheel a new article, HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:


  21. Chihuahuamum says:

    The ipps is the unluckiest of victims imo bc they are the abused the most once devalument sets in whereas the others down the line are buffered from a lot of it bc theyre not around the narc as much.
    In my situation i know its lasted this long bc im not a ipps. In fact i suspect thats why the narcs never married bc he KNOWS he has npd and itd never work. He likes his freedoms.

  22. Chihuahuamum says:

    So true! Npd is cyclic. Its a merry go round of abuse.

  23. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, what percentage of DLS/SSIP would you suspect hope to become the IPPS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      One cannot rely on hope so there is no reliable percentage available.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        I’m kind of getting used to becoming more and more reliant on my own interpretations of late. Not a bad thing hahah also not a criticism or challenge fuel either, because I’m certain you’re reply is for my own good and forces me to think more for myself. Great article by the way.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: Is there fantasy about the position of becoming the IPPS, after first being the IPSS? Or, is what the IPSS imagine close to reality? I wonder if there was a way to find out from the IPSSs what was the reality versus what they imagined the position of IPPSs to be like. I would love to hear about it, from those that actually went from IPSS to IPPS, and actually knew that they were promoted???? What is the longest Golden Period that any one knows of, or has experienced, when they look back????

        1. Whitney says:

          Dear PSE, yes I think if someone is IPSS they would fantasize about being IPPS. If they are IPSS that means they like the Narc. You feel worthless because you aren’t good enough to be IPPS… if only.
          That is true about imagination vs reality!

          Interesting how female somatics are drawn to you. My female friends are all Empaths, and male partners narcissistic or psychopathic. I haven’t dealt much with female Narcs except my mum. Do you have empath friends? Once you find one you can be close friends for life. I even avoid normal females! I only relate to empath females. Same values, experiences, excitability..!

          1. Whitney says:

            Actually now I realise female empaths befriend me in groups. They come up to me like male Narcs and make friends straight away. HG said I’m not a narcissist. I’m lucky, this is the best part of my life.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Hi Whitney. I have thought about this since I have been on Narcsite: I think I may have had somatic tendencies as a youth, but my parents and cultural upbringing were not having any of that. And, I was pushed into the cerebral path. I was not even allowed to look into a mirror for too long. They were not fans of superficiality, as they called it. It is possible that I latently admire the selfishness of Somatic females, and they sense that I am not against them or jealous of them, as many women are. So, there is rapport, and there is an instinctive attraction between empaths and narcissists anyway. Narcissists are lacking in the caring emotions and Empaths have plenty to spare. I often had problems with them in how they went about dating men, etc. It was all so crazy to me. We would discuss their escapades and I was shocked at how they saw men, and they were shocked at how I saw men, as well. They see men as objects, of course, and put them on wheels of misery for fuel: I know that now. But, they would cry to me that they could not find a good guy, etc. And I felt bad for them, but I sensed that there was more to the story than they told me. And, now I know, they did not know what the problem was themselves:They do not know that they are somatic narcissists, of course. And, their tears were only for themselves. Neither did I know what they were, as well. But, many of my questions are answered now. But, I want some normal and emphatic friends in the future. I have donated enough of myself to the Narcissistic cause, so to speak. And, I am thankful, Whitney, to finally break into this mystery and learn about it.

          3. Whitney says:

            I love PSE!!! (By the way brilliant comment lower- about why questions go unanswered)

            I can’t imagine you are Narcissistic at all PSE. Have you done the Empath Detector? I imagine you as a Magnet Standard Empath.
            It’s normal for women to be concerned with appearance in youth. The gym and grooming are like hobbies for you?
            You are very smart PSE, that’s not Narcissistic just true. You are an intellectual.

            I’ve actually dealt with a Narc female (Elite). When I first met her she said she had a high IQ. I thought she must be insecure or have poor social skills, to go around saying that. So I was extra nice to her, I thought she could use help, love, acceptance etc.

            After we talked she would run off to a Greater Elite Narcissist (HG doesn’t know about this guy), who was trying to ensnare me, and tell him things that made him angry with me. He was trying to make me leave this group of people, because he wanted to isolate me. He showed me messages she sent him, saying I was a slut. They spent a lot of time talking about me, him trying to extract information, her smearing me. It was a good example of 2 Narcissists working together! They were both gifted engineers.

            I told him- she’s a beautiful woman, she has a great career, I don’t know why she’s taking about me. And I said “I still like her”. He was so angry at me! His plan to make me leave the group didn’t work! He tried in several more ways also.

            He went nuts when I went no-contact. I had to tell some of my Empaths and Narcs about him. They helped me. He’s probably reading this now.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Hi Whitney. I am not a natural gym person. Growing up in the Midwest, it was normal for females to be athletic naturally. I think it is similar to women that grow up in Britain from the country. We exercised ourselves riding, shooting, gardening, fishing, archery, climbing and playing sports, playing with our pets (I had mainly a dog and a cat and a horse and 2 peacocks) and having sports teams that we liked on our own, as well as ones liked by our fathers and brothers and spouses. When I settled in NY, women are somewhat not the same athletically, and so the gym is the best way to exercise in general. With my parents, grooming meant being hygienically clean. That was about it. So I used to fantasize about the beauty pageant moms and all the fluffery at times. The grass is always greener. I remember when I was 17, I was one of the teens in my high school voted to be a princess in the homecoming queen’s entourage. I was new at that school as well. She was a sweetheart to everyone, and drop dead gorgeous. I was so shocked. I thought that during the assembly they called the wrong name, or perhaps there was another PSE. My mom was nonplussed. My dad was pleased, plus he stayed out of it, other than saying, Congratulations, and handing over the checkbook to us, etc. My mother did jump to the challenge though and took me to have a fancy dress made, to have my hair and makeup done professionally and all of that. lol. It was fun for me. She was so stressed out, but she did not deny me. I think that we all want to balance ourselves out, so since I did not grow up the `beauty queen` route, I love learning more about hair and makeup and fashion and all that. Although I dress mostly on the quiet side, still. I find it fun and balancing. Those women on youtube sure know a lot! I did not dance growing up, either, so I take Zumba and dance choreography and all that to balance myself. I do not regret my upbringing at all, but balancing is good for me. I had a discussion with HG`s reader, E & L, once about all this. That we can all look at what we wanted to do in life, even what we desired in our childhood included, but did or could not actualize for various reasons and timing and we can now still do these things, but of course in different ways now. Whitney, workplaces can be crazy! I managed to escape all that until this last dynamic. Who knew? I am looking to go solo in the future and then choose whom to collaborate with. I never want to endure all that triangulation and jealousy and envy and sabotage and smearing and Cabals ever again where my livelihood is involved. It is amazing that any work gets done at all in these workplaces, yes? My goodness. Did you see that Poll that HG created, asking how we became entangled with a Narcissist? The last time I checked on that poll, workplace was the Number One Answer!!! Workplaces are very dangerous!! I know this as well as you do, of course, as I see from your post. I just recently managed to escape from one. Whew! Unbelievable. Be careful at that place, Whitney, still. Grudges lay in wait until you make a misstep, or show a weakness. Creating gangs to go up against you in the future. Always watching you. Have fun, enjoy your career, but Stay Alert a bit, at that place, Whitney. This is life. Unfortunately.

          5. Whitney says:

            Dear Dear PSE. Do you know HG is in your city??

            It wasn’t work but a social group, where I met these characters. I didn’t get out in my youth, I was with a psychopath. I left him for a LMR Somatic, much less controlling than the Psychopath. And I started socialising in large groups! Guess what? I’ve met lots of Narcissists. They are drawn to me.

            You are feminine and beauty and grooming is a natural hobby. You are girly. That sounds lovely being the princess, I hope you had a nice time. You should have been the Queen though, for sure 👸

            How long were you at the bad workplace, and how do you feel since leaving? The stress of such an experience can linger in your body. Like fight or flight mode. In any group there is danger. You should leave any place where you don’t feel good.

          6. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Whitney: I was there for 3 plus long years. It is difficult starting over. I have not quite made up my mind what direction to take. I admire how HG does so much on his own wit this blog. I am thinking of finding something to start on my own. I am tired from other people right now. If we investigates people and places half as much as many Narcissists did, we would have much more success. I am reading HG`s book: Sitting Target. It is a marvel. I will just leave it at that. I heard mentioned that HG is in NYC? Did he move here? Has he been here long? How does everyone know where he is?

          7. SMH says:

            Great article, HG. This is one I wish I’d had years ago. It really conveys how exhausting it is whatever one’s position in the matrix. Having been IPPS to a Lesser and IPSS to a Mid-Ranger, I agree that it is much worse to be IPPS. That position is more like drowning.

            Whitney and PSE, As IPSS to MRN, I had no desire to be IPPS. Even before I knew about her, I thought it was just a fling. MRN and I had good banter and chemistry, but otherwise we were fundamentally incompatible. I also was not looking to settle down when I met him, having just escaped a Lesser (as I now know but did not back then – I am the perfect example of someone being ensnared twice in a row). I thought MRN was my transitional/security object – like a blankie – and I’d say I was pretty much correct about that. He steadied me in this weird way at first because he wiped Lesser completely from my mind.

            During our time together, I gained a lot of insight into MRN’s need for structure and routine, which IPPS provided while maintaining the country club facade. I was very clear that none of it interested me and I could never provide that for him, so I never gave him the chance to triangulate or to test me as IPPS material. I simply wanted to be IPSS forever and in fact thought I would be!! 18 months post escape and I am still reluctant to get into any kind of ‘real’ relationship. I aspire only to be a mistress, which I am trying to get beyond.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you SMH.

          9. Whitney says:

            Dearest PSE 🌞
            You can follow HG on Instagram and see photos of what he’s up to! You’ll love it.

            3 years is a long time!
            If you’re on your own, your clients or customers will be loyal to… YOU! People notice you’re an Empath and trust you. They WILL wanna do business with you. The most important part of any business is Marketing. Maybe you can read some Marketing books/blogs, while you think about what you wanna do?

            SMH 🌻 you want to be a Mistress, because of your previous heartbreak?

            That is interesting how MRNs need structure and routine… to feel safe and in control?
            I’m totally chaotic, nothing I do is planned. The MRNs take control of my life which makes them feel powerful. They criticise how I do everything in my own weird way. And they are jealous 😆 I have what they dream of and they are bewildered about how! haha.

          10. SMH says:

            Hi Whitney, I am trying to figure it out but I think I want to be a mistress because I don’t want the bother of a full on relationship :).

          11. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Whitney. It is interesting that the reason people trust us is because instinctively they know we are empaths? People have trusted me with their finances, their secrets, their money , to be alone with their children, and have wanted to entrust me with more, and I have to at times refuse because of the responsibility involved at times.. So, you are saying that Empaths come across as trustworthy.? That is interesting. I may use this idea as a criteria to evaluate a man if I ever decided to date. Would I trust him with money, or secrets, or property, to be around children, etc. If there were an emergency and the police were not available to protect me, etc., would I trust myself to be around him, if he became angry at me over something. Not that I am looking to do all that, but as a sort of plumbline question to ask myself about someone. Marketing sounds interesting! I plan to look into it. Yes. It sounds good to me to start over on my own. Thank you for your support and encouragement, Whitney.

          12. Whitney says:

            Dearest PSE,
            I think people must sense you are genuine. I can sense it. If I explain it consciously, one way I know is because you are unique. So you have your own way about you, your own ideas, you aren’t formatting yourself to fit in. And you are open about yourself.

            Hm but I don’t think you should judge a man on whether you trust him. Because Narcs can be the nicest at first. They will mirror you, plus you will project yourself when you judge.

            You can use time as a judge, and see if someone’s actions are consistent!

        2. WokeAF says:

          Almost 6 years golden period as DLS over here

          I knew I’d never want to be IPPS the first time he cheated on her with me.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Not that I didn’t consider it, -but every time I played it out in my mind — i knew Id never trust him. Trust is crucial.
            Plus I’m too damn good at figuring things out. His IPPS has to be codep or mindfucked. That ain’t me

          2. SMH says:

            WokeAF, Right there with you, including what you said about IPPS. I thought the same. Further, I figured he’d go back to IPPS anyway – something of a ping-pong type (as confirmed in one of HG’s posts). I didn’t want his daughters either, to be honest.

          3. WokeAF says:

            IPPS Is defin the worst B.C. usually u live with them
            So besides financial ties, leaving your home, kids involved maybe or divorce
            You still have them in your face 24/7. I could barely THINK.
            The games are always being played which means you’re being mind-f’d 24/7.
            When I finally left my kids dad I was so happy not to be walking on eggshells – I’d just finally bad enough after a decade. Nobody bitching if I leave the peanut butter out. I remember that simple little thing was so huge.
            I haven’t lived with a narc ever since (like 14 years) (and I haven’t dated a non-narc
            Of course I had narc flings and relationships but no cohabitation.
            In fact the first time my narcoholic was rude to my daughter LMFAO
            She asked me politely if , when I made snacks for ourselves, could I make her one
            He drunkenly, rudely, piped off about her doing it herself.
            She stood right in front of him, and firmly and rather loudly said “UM….(his name)? YOU DONT LIVE HERE.” (So shut up, basically)

            I never allowed him in my house again.

            Kids first!!

            Fuck being IPPS , I DID my time. Over it

          4. SMH says:

            WokeAF, Your daughter is awesome! And good for you! Great! Are you still seeing Mr. No Snacks For You?

            I was an idiot IPPS to a Lesser (no kids with him, thankfully) as well as IPSS to a mid-ranger, and I can safely say that I was mind-fucked both times but I also GOT OUT both times. Lesser did not cheat but he was the ultimate whiner and pity-seeker. He also had an ‘anger management’ problem. Mid-ranger cheated, of course (with me and with others before me and probably during and after me, too!). He also sought pity, though he was much more subtle than Lesser. He was also eerily calm (occasional cold fury). The differences were exactly as HG describes them. Unfortunately I did not know what either was. It did not all become clear until I got here, after I had escaped them both. I am dating now but gave myself a year to clear my head and am much more confident about spotting these types. No more walking on eggshells for me either.

          5. WAF Tudor says:

            Nope not seeing Mr No Snacks lol. Ditched him soon after- went NC w/o warning. Been almost 9 months only miss his equipment and even tat isn’t worth it

          6. SMH says:

            WAF – fist bump. There is plenty of equipment in the world. You’ll find a better one.

    2. FoolMe1Time says:

      Alexis I would think with someone like HG they all would, don’t you?Unless they know what he is. 🙃

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Hahahah maybe FM1T. I think I’d get too annoyed with him myself and he’d hear me clambering out of the window

    3. Mary says:


      Changing the position in the fuel matrix of the narcissist, and be promoted to be an IPPS would not make you more happy and satisfied and treated better.

      That, I certainly know.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Oh goodness, I completely get that Mary. I have no desire whatsoever to become an IPPS. I wouldn’t cut it for very long – I know that too! I wouldn’t have the strength to put up with the manipulations.
        I was just interested to know the percentage of those who engage as DLS or SSIP believe they would like to be promoted and how many are content to ‘accept their lot’. But HG is just being a little **** again, I know he knows.

        HG do you sometimes wake up and feel like today you’re just going to piss everyone off? or do you have days where you’re good to everyone or is it all about a state of equilibrium between the different types of fuel

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See Malice. That does not apply to my interactions on the blog though.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m only teasing HG – you know I adore you x

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I know but I only just heard your cry of adoration from all the way down there in the dungeon.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            That’s because I like it here so much!

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            Perhaps now that you are in the dungeon I can finally leave? Lol

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’ll give you a hand to escape FM1T, although I will miss you of course. I’ve worked out how to leave but I’m just enjoying it too much down here. Maybe I’ve been brainwashed! Sounds like you’re doing very well indeed x

          6. FoolMe1Time says:

            I’ve grown tired of the little men and would like a bit more variety! Lol.

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            Go for it! Yes, vanilla can begin to taste rather dull!

          8. MB says:

            Farquhar doesn’t come to narcsite for coffee?

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          I have noticed from my own questions to HG Tudor, that when some questions go unanswered: 1) they are part of a fuller development that HG Tudor has in the works, 2) there could be something harmful in the question that will not be developed at the time in case it misleads others, 3) the answer is in moderation at the moment, although the question is generously allowed to be posted 4) we are allowed to tackle the challenges of questions ourselves first, at times, using the knowledge we have gained, and on and on. etc.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Entirely correct PSE, HG considerably approves.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Awww you’re so lovely PSE. Truly! That’s a really thoughtful response.

            but you did forget 5) lol. I won’t tell you what it is, but it makes me want to throw chips apparently.

          3. Alex, your number 5) is much different than mine, that is for sure.

        3. Mary says:


          Ah… thank goodness, good for you.

          But, if this could wet your curiosity:

          I was waiting and hoping (for years- subjected to the most vile future faking ) waiting for the narc would step me up the ladder, so to speak, although he is not married ( unless he is hiding it very well, and he lives with his parents still… he is 31) i was hoping that he would commit and also become honest… as he has been lying as the devil himself…

          But, alas, he can only turn the wheel of misery…

          Pretty sure he has many fuel sources of all sort and shape.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            It must have been awful for you Mary. Dangling on a piece of string is the worst and I guess that’s the main thing which goes in my favour, I won’t dangle for very long before I cut the tie.

            I do understand though, you hope they will change, ‘grow up’ but they don’t. And even when they’re in old age, the games are still being played.

            I’m so pleased you’re here now and learning x

      2. Actually don’t answer that question because I already know the answer

        1. Mary says:


          He was capable ( after shelved me 4 years ago) to keep me trapped in the wheel with just only WORDS..

          That is how much uncanningly clever he is…
          of course he knows me inside out…

          It hurts beyond words.

          He knows all my whereabouts etc
          .. and he comes when he pleased… to plead…tocry.. to speak more future faking.. and tp utter the most extraordinary love declarations..

          But as soon as i confront him with the reality of the last 4 years..he lashes out in fury…

          Its unberable….

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Oh Mary, can you not go to different places? Where he doesn’t know you go? Keep reading on this site. It’s not a good idea to confront him at all? What is it you are aiming to achieve from confronting him? Through this site (thanks to HG) you can learn the outcome of confronting and therefore learn thst there is nothing to be gained from this. It is desperately painful. No one (except fellow empaths) understands. Stay here and you’ll soon be on the right path x

          2. Mary says:


            Nope, i have no other place to go.

            In regard to confront him…
            It took me this long… and long hours of agonizing preaching… over and over again… hoping that he would be sick of his own ways…long years to realise that it doesn’t accomplish anything… rather than the same damn cycle…

            I am waisting my breath to even say one word to him…

            To realise that all the talking… all the wrangling..praying ..
            Waiting… tolerating… forgiving… trying again… was all in vain… it is totally devastating…

            He gets all repentant only when i go no contact…. 🙄

            I knew what was happening ( sort of) long ago, but somehow i was hoping for a different outcome…
            But now the awarness of reality has hit me like never before.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Mary, maybe think long and hard about other possible options. there are always choices. Don’t keep going back to where he is x

  24. KellyD says:

    I consider it hurtful to my self to be in the presence of a narc who is supposed to be my friend and lover, only to have him sit apart from me, with his back to me, in silence. This doesn’t happen in a normal healthy mutually loving and respectful relationship, right? Does it make me a complainer to voice my hurt over this? Was I too needy? Just curious what others think of this. It wasn’t a one off thing either. He said I was never happy. But all I wanted was mutual love and all the warmth that comes with it.

    1. E. B. says:

      “ have him sit apart from me, with his back to me, in silence. ”
      Present Silent Treatment
      That doesn’t happen in respectful relationships.
      I do not see you as needy for wanting to speak about it, only that you are dealing with a narcissist. Telling him how much he is hurting you with his behaviour is giving him what he wants. I think he is the one who is never happy, not you.

      1. KellyD says:

        EB, thank you. It’s passed now but that’s something I always think about. Sitting in that silence was perhaps the most difficult thing. I never understood it and always stomped my feet, so to speak. He always made me out to be overreacting. But I knew it was cold and disrespectful, and it always came on for no reason. I hated that shit! But it was so much a part of the cycle.

  25. Joanne says:

    “The former has the worse situation, but for each of them it their situations are equally unpleasant and horrific. Objectively the answer is the first, but subjectively they are equal.”

    This means a lot to me. Thank you.

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